Welding Cables Discussion

[Former Member]

The problem with codes is understanding on what and how they apply and which applies ahead of the other. In some cases its one in others its the other. In all cases its the more stringent one.

What complicates things is that the section of code you referenced is for wired in place, get into extension cords you add an additional layer of complexity that usually adds a layer of safety and additional rules.

I know enough about codes and applications which have taught me that when the basic codes says one thing yet manufacturer specs say another (less than code), there are other specs that come into play (generally more codes or rules).

 

[phaxtris]

Except it is permitted to use a flexible cord for a permanent installation, there is no mention of a different rating for flexible cord, again in section 4 ;

"Flexible cord is permitted by code for use in portable appliances or stationary equipment requiring movement for service and repair and for wiring in cranes, hoists and elevators. Flexible cord is
also permitted to be used to prevent transmission of noise or vibration."

There are plenty of old dial-arc's that are hard wired with flexible cord and a shut off still in service, when the welder weighs 400lbs it could be considered a stationary piece of equiptment

Anyways

I agree extension cords are kind of in a no mans land for actual regulation, but the logic of the code holds true, you simply cannot draw 38a on your welder for 100% of the time, the conductors will have time to cool, there is no way around it, and the surge amperage is only momentary.....even a stuck rod will eventually shut the machine down. Yes there may also be voltage loss on a very long run....but are you sure your even getting 240v straight from the wall? ive seen up to 260v from a 240v plug...so the welders are capable of handling voltage variations

In the end you do what your comfortable with, if you want to run a 6g cord, the only thing that is stopping you is your wallet. 10g just seems to be the best crossover for weight, cost, and current capability for general work(~200a) , that's why you will most often see guys doing inside work rocking a 10g cord........there are of course exceptions, like the guy running 1/16" fluxcore

 

[Former Member]

Except it is permitted to use a flexible cord for a permanent installation, there is no mention of a different rating for flexible cord, again in section 4 ;

"Flexible cord is permitted by code for use in portable appliances or stationary equipment requiring movement for service and repair and for wiring in cranes, hoists and elevators. Flexible cord is
also permitted to be used to prevent transmission of noise or vibration."

There are plenty of old dial-arc's that are hard wired with flexible cord and a shut off still in service, when the welder weighs 400lbs it could be considered a stationary piece of equiptment

Anyways

I agree extension cords are kind of in a no mans land for actual regulation, but the logic of the code holds true, you simply cannot draw 38a on your welder for 100% of the time, the conductors will have time to cool, there is no way around it, and the surge amperage is only momentary.....even a stuck rod will eventually shut the machine down. Yes there may also be voltage loss on a very long run....but are you sure your even getting 240v straight from the wall? ive seen up to 260v from a 240v plug...so the welders are capable of handling voltage variations

In the end you do what your comfortable with, if you want to run a 6g cord, the only thing that is stopping you is your wallet. 10g just seems to be the best crossover for weight, cost, and current capability for general work(~200a) , that's why you will most often see guys doing inside work rocking a 10g cord........there are of course exceptions, like the guy running 1/16" fluxcore

The example of 240vac is good, if the voltage goes up there is actually less current. The worst cases is when it falls below spec and then current draw increases. The increased current becomes the issue as the resistance remains the same which generates the heat. Yes there are limits to this rule and how far it is applied.

While a 10awg cable may do its job, it does cause several issue in part Voltage drop through resistance which mean end device now over currents for a given load.

Second is that the higher current requirement does increase heating in the cable as a result.

The link I posted earlier was specially for welding cable recommendations and exceeds that of the code, but here it again.

Amperage	Voltage	25 ft.	50 ft.	75 ft.	100 ft.
Input Power Supply	Extension Cord Length
15A	120V	12 AWG	12 AWG	10 AWG	8 AWG
20A	120V	10 AWG	10 AWG	8 AWG	8 AWG
30A	120 / 240V	8 AWG	8 AWG	8 AWG	6 AWG
40A	240V	6 AWG	6 AWG	6 AWG	6 AWG
50A	240V	6 AWG	6 AWG	6 AWG	6 AWG

I find it strange that you so easily dismiss something that suggests safety.

Using an 10awg cable just because its accepted practice does not it make it a correct safe practice.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I just checked my welder extension cords - I have 3 extension cables, two are 10g and one is 8g.
Welder names (pro) usually come from the current they support at 60% duty cycle as from personal experience it is hard to exceed 60% duty cycle during normal welding. At least I never was able to exceed it and get overheat warning.

In practice 10g is quite good enough for all but some super heavy duty stuff. Let me put it this way, I welded quite hard at around 260 amps with 5mm electrodes drawing in around 50 amps. My pigtail is rather thin - #4 from a smaller welder. When going 260amps it does get hot to the touch after welding as fast as I can after a while. Moral of the story is that it is hard to melt even small stuff - even if you try very hard.

 

[phaxtris]

@Degen, your ohms law argument is circular, decreased voltage = increased current for a given wattage, yes, but the increased input current to the welder for the same wattage out increases heat in the welder, decreasing the effective duty cycle, back to square 1, this is not a drill or a table saw, you or it cannot run indefinitely

It is to the benefit of the retailer to sell you the largest cord possible, it's also doubtful they are even aware of electrical code regarding welding machines.

When you talk about the safety implications, you do realize you are talking about a potential fire Hazzard....from a process that is in itself a fire Hazzard, the cord being the lowest on the list of fire Hazzard's in this situation, not to mention you literally have to be present while the device is drawing current to even create any potential Hazzard in the first place.

As for the why I can dismiss those website with ease, they are all retailers using the generic recommendation for extension cord sizing, not one is taking into account the intermittent use or the reduced input current a welder draws while not at full output (Wich realistically is most of the time).

...And Safe is Safe, by definition, and I think the CSA has more skin in the game than a random internet website

 

[Former Member]

@phaxtris I'm glad you are comfortable in taking on liability on a public forum by making such statements. Hopefully it doesn't bite you.

 

[historicalarms]

Ya, the cheap booster cables are low strand or even solid wire. Nothing beats really good cable.

But my main bitch is crappy clamps. It's not easy to find good ones.

My heavy booster cables ( I say "heavy" because when I take them out of the truck I drag them, carrying isnt an option) have just the simple inexpensive hardware variety of clamps ....but I do change those clamps about every 4 years. The jaws will still look perfect but conductivity seems to diminish with time, I think it is oxydation corrosion in the spring loaded clamp joints.
Those cables were salvaged from an old industrial shop welder in the early 80's and Ive used them ever since, I dont know what "gauge" they are ( the cable itself is over 1/2" and with the coating around 3/4") and at 75 or 80 ft long they are a beast to move but damn, if you want to boost a dead cold piece of Cat equipment from a fair distance there the ones to have.

 

[Chicken lights]

Ya, the cheap booster cables are low strand or even solid wire. Nothing beats really good cable.

But my main bitch is crappy clamps. It's not easy to find good ones.

Don’t really remember where I got them, Napa maybe? But that’s how I did mine. Probably 10+ years old now, never had to fix or replace anything yet

Maybe you’re just hard on equipment?

 

[Tom Kitta]

My heavy booster cables ( I say "heavy" because when I take them out of the truck I drag them, carrying isnt an option) have just the simple inexpensive hardware variety of clamps ....but I do change those clamps about every 4 years. The jaws will still look perfect but conductivity seems to diminish with time, I think it is oxydation corrosion in the spring loaded clamp joints.
Those cables were salvaged from an old industrial shop welder in the early 80's and Ive used them ever since, I dont know what "gauge" they are ( the cable itself is over 1/2" and with the coating around 3/4") and at 75 or 80 ft long they are a beast to move but damn, if you want to boost a dead cold piece of Cat equipment from a fair distance there the ones to have.

Yeah I had to use 30 ft or so cables yesterday (but for a welder, not booster) and I swear they are like 50 lbs each or more. They were from an old welder as well and I think they can do some crazy amps - like 300 continuous or something.

 

[Susquatch]

Don’t really remember where I got them, Napa maybe? But that’s how I did mine. Probably 10+ years old now, never had to fix or replace anything yet

Maybe you’re just hard on equipment?

I won't deny being hard on things. Sometimes even my equipment.....

But my Clamps are pure crap. Only slightly better than you get at the dollar store - just kidding, but that reflects how I feel about them.

I'll ask my brother in law who works at a Napa if they have anything like yours.

My heavy booster cables ( I say "heavy" because when I take them out of the truck I drag them, carrying isnt an option) have just the simple inexpensive hardware variety of clamps ....but I do change those clamps about every 4 years. The jaws will still look perfect but conductivity seems to diminish with time, I think it is oxydation corrosion in the spring loaded clamp joints.

Ya, that sounds like cables to die for. I'd happily drag mine around too if they were that big.

I'll bet the biggest problem with your Clamps isn't the surface corrosion. I'll bet it's the cable to clamp connection. If I could find nice Clamps, they usually have 3 or 4 of those big clamping screws to hold the cable.

Mine are 20 foot but only 1 gauge. They live under the back seat in my truck. I'd just like better Clamps. Longer isn't always better when the cranking amps are high. I've always found 20ft to be enough. But if I had heavier cables like yours, I'd happily go longer too.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

This thread has given me the idea to make up some spring clamp ends with some quick connects so I can use my 25' stinger/ground extension leads for booster cables. There's been more than once where they would have came in handy and I've had to clamp 2 sets together to get to whatever lump is dead. I already have the quick connects, and some old cables will give up their clamps for the cause.

Never know what you might learn or think of when you click a thread on a forum.

 

[Susquatch]

Never know what you might learn or think of when you click a thread on a forum.

I agree. Some of us don't like our threads hi-jacked. Some don't mind.

I try to be respectful but prolly fail every so often.

As a moderator, I can move any discussions that anyone objects to. The invite is there to anyone who wants anything moved. I'm happy to look after it.

For my own part, I like the variety, I love all the new things one can learn, and the ideas these discussions can generate are amazing, as the discussion changes. It's truly amazing!

 

[140mower]

AuInLand 175A Battery Quick Connect Disconnect Wire Connectors, Wire Harness Plug Kit, 6 Sets Battery Cable Quick Connect Disconnect Plug for Recovery Winch or Trailer (1/0 AWG, Red) https://a.co/d/abbsdI4

I have a couple batteries that are tucked away and make getting jumper cables a bear to get onto, so I am looking to put these into my little fleet. The nice thing is that it's easy to clip on an extra length if needed and I will have one short section with conventional clamps for vehicles outside of my bunch.

 

[Susquatch]

I have a couple batteries that are tucked away and make getting jumper cables a bear to get onto, so I am looking to put these into my little fleet.

I notice that they are rated for 175 amps. Is that enough for you?

 

[140mower]

Chances are that if five minutes of charge doesn't start it, the battery is frozen solid and a new plan needs to be hatched.... I have a hard time seeing any more than that going through a conventional set of clamps. It's not too often that my stuff "needs" to be going in the dead of winter aside from the skid steer, and then usually for snow removal, and it's usually warmed up some outside....

 

[phaxtris]

Man you guys are all making me jealous of your snazzy cables ! These are the two I have, one on the left is a pick n pull, 5$, the other is a set from Canadian Tire I bought years ago, they are both only 10ft and 4g (or so they say...kinda skeptical)

Despite not being anything fancy both sets have served well enough, boosted more than one telehandler with either set..both have been used on occasion as a ghetto ground jumper

One of those 20 foot sets you guys have would be the cats a$$!

 

[Susquatch]

. I have a hard time seeing any more than that going through a conventional set of clamps.

I've seen as much as 300 go through a good clamp (not a junk one like my own). That's why I want to find some good Clamps!

 

[Susquatch]

Despite not being anything fancy both sets have served well enough, boosted more than one telehandler with either set..both have been used on occasion as a ghetto ground jumper

I think it all depends how much sharing the cables do. A vehicle with a totally dead battery will draw as much as the cables can deliver. A half dead battery will steal much less.

I've jumped hundreds of vehicles with crappy cables and crappy clamps.

But the first time you hit a totally dead battery in a big vehicle, you will be happy you had good cables and good clamps.

I upgraded mine when I got a big ram Cummins diesel because I knew darn well my crappy tire cables would never cut the mustard. The bigger cables have also worked for my tractors.

 

[Janger]

I'll bet the biggest problem with your Clamps isn't the surface corrosion. I'll bet it's the cable to clamp connection. If I could find nice Clamps, they usually have 3 or 4 of those big clamping screws to hold the cable.
View attachment 29356

Solder the connection?

 

[phaxtris]

I think it all depends how much sharing the cables do. A vehicle with a totally dead battery will draw as much as the cables can deliver. A half dead battery will steal much less.

I've jumped hundreds of vehicles with crappy cables and crappy clamps.

But the first time you hit a totally dead battery in a big vehicle, you will be happy you had good cables and good clamps.

I upgraded mine when I got a big ram Cummins diesel because I knew darn well my crappy tire cables would never cut the mustard. The bigger cables have also worked for my tractors.

Oh you're getting me wrong, I'm not saying these cables are as good as the nice ones you guys have posted, I just thought it was funny to post a pic of my sub 100$ cable's