# Another stray machine followed me home.



## Susquatch (May 2, 2022)

I went to Toronto on the weekend to deliver my Bridgeport to its new machinist. 

Post in thread 'New to me Bridgeport Mill' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-to-me-bridgeport-mill.3491/post-75439

On the way home this silly little surface grinder jumped up onto my flatbed and followed me home. 






It's a KO Lee S612 fully manual unit that spent most of it's life teaching shop to young aspiring machinists. So not heaving used but prolly badly abused. 

I don't really know much about it yet except that it works. It has the perfect motor on it already - a 1hp 220V 3 phase Doeer. Didn't have to do much to hook it up. Very smooth with no discernable vibration. 

All three axis work, but the lift is a bit stiff. Not sure why. 

I plan to move it a bit further back in the shop so it's back to back with my mill. That leaves lots of room to clean up and walk around it. More to discover and even more things to learn. 

I sure hope it is worth it. She didn't follow me home very willingly........

Barely out on the highway, my truck blew a front wheel bearing. Not good. No tools, Friday night, busy highway, pissed off passengers. It can't get any worse...... 

Yes it can! CAA will tow me to the nearest repair shop. After a few hours they call again to say a truck is coming. I asked AGAIN about the trailer. They said they don't do trailers and I was on my own for that but they did give me the number of the outfit they were sending for the truck. So I called them. Answering machine...... Call again in 20 minutes. Got the owner. Said truck is on the way but ya, no trailers. After suitable begging, he said he would find another truck that could pull the trailer but it would be $350 plus tax. What do I do? I know no nothing about Toronto. So ya, I'm not leaving it on the side of the highway with a surface grinder on it. 350 it is. 

A little while later CAA calls again and says a taxi is on its way. Ya, you guessed it. Towing company won't take passengers. So I told her to hold on while I get raped again. I call the towing guy again and he says no way - only two passengers and only if the driver agrees. I said I'd get a taxi for my wife. 

We talk for a while ourselves and decided we CAA d prolly bribe the driver if he didn't agree to take us up front, but my wife would hide behind the back seat in the truck and take a long nap. Ya, she fits back there.... Another hour later the truck arrives and says ok to my son and I but only if we wear masks and only if we agree that he doesn't have to. 

So he drags the truck up onto his flatbed and doesn't notice my wife wretching. 

Then he takes out a 2-5/8 ball, screws it into the tow bar, backs up to the trailer and lifts the tie bar, connects the wiring and off we go. $350 worth of extra work??? Screwing on a ball??? 

Oh well.... Off we go to the repair shop where I bribe him with cash to split $200 between himself and a $100 towing fee for a small box trailer. After he unloads the truck and leaves we check on the bride and she is like a cat somebody threw into a bath tub. I folded down the seat and ran like the wuss I am...... She is NOT HAPPY. 

OK, so far so good/bad. 

Across the street is a hotel! Nope, across the street is a hotel with no rooms. And they say nobody in the area has rooms either. 

So off we go looking for a room. My son suggests we sleep in the truck. I'm glad said it not me..... Ok then..... I guess we need to find an 8 star hotel - cuz 4 or 5 ain't gunna cut it after that truck ride. 

Sure enough, I find a 1 star place with one room left due to a cancellation. Insert big sigh here. 

In the morning I try to find a rental car place that rents trucks with hitches. No way. Apparently, nobody does that. So we rent a car, drive home, jump in my wife's jeep and drive back for the trailer. Didn't get home till really late and got the surface grinder in the shop just as the rain started. 

Two full days. I could have driven to Calgary in that time. 

She is still mad at me. 

I sure hope the Lee Grinder is worth it. 

So starts another adventure....


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## Brent H (May 2, 2022)

@Susquatch : HOLY SMOKES! what a trial and tribulation - you probably barely broke even on selling the mill and delivering it with the cost of the adventure home.  YIKES!

Hopefully that surface grinder knows how to help you plant!  wow  - epic adventure! 

Are you and @Dabbler related? That is crazy!


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## Susquatch (May 2, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : HOLY SMOKES! what a trial and tribulation - you probably barely broke even on selling the mill and delivering it with the cost of the adventure home.  YIKES!
> 
> Hopefully that surface grinder knows how to help you plant!  wow  - epic adventure!
> 
> Are you and @Dabbler related? That is crazy!



I think @Dabbler is my brother from another mother - in more ways than one! But he got the short end of this stick. His trip was WAY WORSE! So I have no right to complain. 

And no, I didn't even come close to breaking even. Even if you take the repair costs away (it would have happened sooner or later), the hotel, the trailer towing, the extra two round trips up and down the 401, etc etc cost me more than I sold the Bridgeport for.......


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## Susquatch (May 2, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : HOLY SMOKES! what a trial and tribulation - you probably barely broke even on selling the mill and delivering it with the cost of the adventure home.  YIKES!
> 
> Hopefully that surface grinder knows how to help you plant!  wow  - epic adventure!
> 
> Are you and @Dabbler related? That is crazy!



On the bright side, it's a nice Lee Grinder though. Just did a test grind that looks great. It's smooth and vibration free. 

Now begins the learning. 

I have a few jobs waiting for it already. Where do I start? 

Way too much fun for an old man! LOL!


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## Dusty (May 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I went to Toronto on the weekend to deliver my Bridgeport to its new machinist.
> 
> Post in thread 'New to me Bridgeport Mill' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-to-me-bridgeport-mill.3491/post-75439
> 
> ...



If I were you I would change the name of your garage to something like 'Suckers Paradise' or 'Don't Ask'.  

Has she allow you back in the house? Just kidding! LOL


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## Susquatch (May 2, 2022)

Dusty said:


> If I were you I would change the name of your garage to something like 'Suckers Paradise' or 'Don't Ask'.
> 
> Has she allow you back in the house? Just kidding! LOL



Quite the opposite. I'm allowed in the house, but not allowed to play with my machines...... And allowed is maybe not the best choice of words.. ..


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## Gordie (May 2, 2022)

Don't forget that Mother's Day is coming up else there will be a sequel.
Sorry for ya Man.


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## David_R8 (May 2, 2022)

Dang, that's a misadventure of epic proportions!
Glad everyone and everything is safe though.


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## Dabbler (May 2, 2022)

OMG What a BP misadventure!  I am beginning to think I do have a 'lost twin'...
Thanks for relating the whole story.  Now I know why your bride is so p***ed...

That KO Lee was a great acquisition.  Nice little grinder, easy to maintain.  An all manual grinder is a great way to learn.


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## Chicken lights (May 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I went to Toronto on the weekend to deliver my Bridgeport to its new machinist.
> 
> Post in thread 'New to me Bridgeport Mill' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-to-me-bridgeport-mill.3491/post-75439
> 
> ...


CAA used to have an RV package (I think that’s the wording) for these situations. Long story short I was asked to move a ‘67 Camaro with my F350 and gooseneck years ago. Loaded it up in Oshawa, only to break down 5 miles away. Spent hours on the road waiting on two tow trucks, with the customer and his wife. 10 o’clock that Saturday night I’m at a mechanics shop tucking a Camaro inside while trying to shoo two tow trucks away, because I don’t need them doing any midnight shopping. It was a very long day 

I feel your pain except I don’t have a PO’d half pint that I married 

Hopefully the surface grinder works out well for you!


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## 6.5 Fan (May 3, 2022)

The silver lining to your adventure is that if you are allowed another trip to deliver stuff the wife will likely stay home. 
 It does look like a nice grinder though.


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## Mcgyver (May 3, 2022)

Good for you, a great little grinder.  I hope you took the table for the ride - its (afaik) a roller style (edit, nope, I take that back....probably not a roller....was thinking Norton).   From a high school?  probably barely used.


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## trlvn (May 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> It's a KO Lee S612 fully manual unit that spent most of it's life teaching shop to young aspiring machinists. So not heaving used but prolly badly abused.


Hey!  That's the surface grinder from the Breslau auction a couple of months ago:









						22Feb22 Auction, Kitchener ON
					

A bit of stuff that might be of interest...  Myford Super7 -   https://hibid.com/lot/112788095/myford-7-metal-lathe--1ph--with-table  Note this is the long bed version but not a 'big bore'.  Looks like it has been used for woodturning, at least recently.  Also, the carriage starts to get tighter...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
				




Weren't you in the hunt for it at that time?  I seem to recall that there were several grinding wheels in a separate lot.  Did you get them?

Craig


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Good for you, a great little grinder.  I hope you took the table for the ride - its (afaik) a roller style (edit, nope, I take that back....probably not a roller....was thinking Norton).   From a high school?  probably barely used.



No time to take anything apart. So I worried myself sick over that same thought the whole time it was on the road. I could just imagine bearings pounding on the races the whole way home. 

Anyway, turns out it's on a Vway & Flat Combo same as a lathe. No idea how that survives all that grinding dust, but they "look" ok. There is what looks like a deliberate upside-down lip over the ways and they are completely shrouded end to end. Lots to learn and lots to check. 

I'll be looking for advice and info as the experience unfolds. I have no history at all with surface grinders. I'm a total newbie. It's like exploring another planet. 

It's also interesting to be completing a tool post grinder at the same time......


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> CAA used to have an RV package (I think that’s the wording) for these situations. Long story short I was asked to move a ‘67 Camaro with my F350 and gooseneck years ago. Loaded it up in Oshawa, only to break down 5 miles away. Spent hours on the road waiting on two tow trucks, with the customer and his wife. 10 o’clock that Saturday night I’m at a mechanics shop tucking a Camaro inside while trying to shoo two tow trucks away, because I don’t need them doing any midnight shopping. It was a very long day
> 
> I feel your pain except I don’t have a PO’d half pint that I married
> 
> Hopefully the surface grinder works out well for you!



Yup, sounds VERY SIMILAR! Leaving my truck in an open parking lot in Toronto was VERY VERY VERY Stressful! I love your "midnight shopping" analogy!

The room we got was a block away but it just happened to have a view of the parking lot.... I fell asleep with my face plastered to the glass.


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Weren't you in the hunt for it at that time?
> 
> Craig



I didn't get it at that auction and didn't participate because other members had already expressed interest.


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> CAA used to have an RV package (I think that’s the wording) for these situations.



Hmmmmmm...... 

I need to check into that. All in all breaking down away from home is a BAD experience. Every little thing that can help with that is good. 

Thank you for the suggestion!


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## David_R8 (May 3, 2022)

@Susquatch I had a Parker Majestic 6x18 surface grinder from 1968 (if I recall correctly) that had lived most of its life in a tool and die company. Similar design, V-way and a flat way. The ways still had all the flaking marks which was a testament to a) good lubrication; basically a set of rollers that rode in an oil bath and constantly covered the ways in oil, and b) a design that had the ways so well protected that there was very little chance of dust, grit etc getting any where it shouldn't be.


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

Gordie said:


> Don't forget that Mother's Day is coming up else there will be a sequel.
> Sorry for ya Man.



I'm gunna take a big risk here and just say it out loud to put it out there.

I HATE all these stupid "special days". Mother's day, Father's day, Valentine's day, Thanksgiving Day, Sectetary"s day, Boss's day, blah blah blah blah..... All designed to make money selling cards gifts and junk and forget something and get killed.

My mother used to say, "If you are only gunna do something special for me on special days, then don't bother."


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## Chicken lights (May 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmmmm......
> 
> I need to check into that. All in all breaking down away from home is a BAD experience. Every little thing that can help with that is good.
> 
> Thank you for the suggestion!


The app TruckerPath is helpful, it lists gas stations, truck stops, walmarts, rest areas etc. It also shows where you are on the map + direction of travel. I like Expedia for hotels, but there’s a bunch of sites now that help. In the USA I’ll use Lyft instead of cabs. It doesn’t need a physical address to be able to send a car to you, which 95% of the time I have no idea where I am or where I’m going. Drives me bonkers being parked at a weigh scale or welcome centre and trying to order a pizza, a lot of those places don’t HAVE an actual address. 

I guess after the 50th or 60th time of being broke down I take it in stride a little more. That and I only have to worry about one persons safety. 

You picked the best time of year to break down, in my opinion. Middle of the summer is almost as bad as middle of the winter. I’m not sure if that’s a great thing to point out to the sawed off better half?


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## Canadium (May 3, 2022)

So another newbie question from the clueless. What can a surface grinder do that other machines cannot? Other than grind flat surfaces. 

I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?


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## David_R8 (May 3, 2022)

Canadium said:


> So another newbie question from the clueless. What can a surface grinder do that other machines cannot? Other than grind flat surfaces.
> 
> I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?


I think it all depends on what kind of projects you want to do and what tolerances you need. 
I sold mine because a) I wasn't using it and b) I needed the space


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2022)

@Canadium With more tooling, the SG can do a lot.  Just like a mill can be more versatile with a rotary table, indexer, and other accessories the SG gets wider tasks also.

Making tapers , precision angles, precise curves, making tooling (and sharpening them also) One can make the punches for a punch and die set, make precision fit-ups an order of magnitude closer than a milling machine.

A CNC grinder can do a lot more than that.


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## Dan Dubeau (May 3, 2022)

Sounds like quite an adventure Susquatch.  I hope the surface grinder brings many years of trouble free ownership for the headache it's caused you so far.  What's that saying about what doesn't kill makes us stronger?  You've got a really good Wife.


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## 140mower (May 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'm gunna take a big risk here and just say it out loud to put it out there.
> 
> I HATE all these stupid "special days". Mother's day, Father's day, Valentine's day, Thanksgiving Day, Sectetary"s day, Boss's day, blah blah blah blah..... All designed to make money selling cards gifts and junk and forget something and get killed.
> 
> My mother used to say, "If you are only gunna do something special for me on special days, then don't bother."


Your father was a lucky man.


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## Susquatch (May 3, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> The app TruckerPath is helpful, it lists gas stations, truck stops, walmarts, rest areas etc. It also shows where you are on the map + direction of travel. I like Expedia for hotels, but there’s a bunch of sites now that help. In the USA I’ll use Lyft instead of cabs. It doesn’t need a physical address to be able to send a car to you, which 95% of the time I have no idea where I am or where I’m going. Drives me bonkers being parked at a weigh scale or welcome centre and trying to order a pizza, a lot of those places don’t HAVE an actual address.
> 
> I guess after the 50th or 60th time of being broke down I take it in stride a little more. That and I only have to worry about one persons safety.
> 
> You picked the best time of year to break down, in my opinion. Middle of the summer is almost as bad as middle of the winter. I’m not sure if that’s a great thing to point out to the sawed off better half?



Good stuff. I'm the one the mosquitos like. So gimme winter over summer any time. Ya, you are right. Early May was perfect. We walked the whole area looking for food and shelter and it was actually nice! 

I'll give those apps a gander. 

Thanks!


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## chip4charlie (May 3, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?


New wheel bearings for all the vehicles?


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## Susquatch (May 6, 2022)

OMG! I was able to find lubrication instructions and parts manuals for this KO Lee S612 thanks to @thestelster. But sadly no operations manual yet...... 

In reading the lubrication instructions I was astounded to discovered that you oil the table ways on this thing by simply lifting the table off the ways and filling some oil reservoirs. Suddenly I was overwhelmed with anxiety. *The table is not restrained*! What would have happened if I hit a bump in the road on the drive home? 

I don't suppose anyone has a user manual for it?


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## Mcgyver (May 6, 2022)

haha your first surface grinder move.  Now you know.  If its anything like the same sized tool grinder, the ways will look like this....pockets with sprung wheels to carry the oil up They are in the Z axis as well.

This was the condition of mine before a ground up scraping job...gag


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## Susquatch (May 6, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> haha your first surface grinder move.  Now you know.  If its anything like the same sized tool grinder, the ways will look like this....pockets with sprung wheels to carry the oil up They are in the Z axis as well.
> 
> This was the condition of mine before a ground up scraping job...gag
> 
> View attachment 23703



Yes, the Lee uses the same wheels. I think it's a pretty cool system I do not know if my wheels are spring loaded though because I have not taken the table off yet. Here is a photo.  






I did not see any wheels on the apron ways but it's really hard to see in there. 

The apron also has keeper plates so it doesn't come off like the table does.


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

I have noticed that my grinding finish has a teeny tiny wee little itsy bitsy of a wave to it. It's virtually indiscernable without a very critical eye.

But a big part of using a surface grinder is balancing and dressing the wheels. I have a diamond dressing stone, but I don't have a balancer.

I would like to make a new arbour that includes a balancing ring and a balancing fixture. 

In looking at the Sopko arbour, I noticed that they have a recess in the taper. I don't know why. I would guess it is to improve the taper fit. But doing it that way also reduces the contact area.

See the attached drawing. The taper is shown with a T, and the recess is shown with an R.






My original arbor does not have the recess. It's just a straight taper for the whole length. What do you guys recommend - a straight taper or one with the recess?


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## Mcgyver (May 23, 2022)

> My original arbor does not have the recess



Arbor?  or adapter?

If your original adapter doesn't have the recess, why do you think it matches the one in that drawing?   There isn't just one flavour.

 Most imbalance goes away with dressing.  The wee bit of clearance between wheel and mount means a wheel is eccentric when you mount it.  When you dress it, you removed the OD ecentricity which is most of the imbalance.  What do you mean diamond dressing stone?  You use a diamond point mounted on the table to dress not a stone....that way you get the OD truly concentric


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## Ian Moss (May 23, 2022)

In my experience, the arbor does not have a recess. Your picture is for the wheel mounting hub that does have a recess. I suspect that this makes the hub easier to remove when changing wheels. It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing. I use 5 minute epoxy to add weight to the light side of wheel/hub assemblies. The epoxy sticks well to the stone and can be made slightly heavy and then trimmed to  balance with a sanding sleeve in a Dremel tool. I add the epoxy to both sides of the  wheel in equal amounts since adding weight to only one side of the wheel may provide balance in a static test but could potentially contribute some small dynamic imbalance at speed.


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## Mcgyver (May 23, 2022)

Ian Moss said:


> It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing.



I'd go one step further and say there is really no point in balancing a wheel without it being on an adapter it stays put on.


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Arbor?  or adapter?
> 
> If your original adapter doesn't have the recess, why do you think it matches the one in that drawing?   There isn't just one flavour.
> 
> Most imbalance goes away with dressing.  The wee bit of clearance between wheel and mount means a wheel is eccentric when you mount it.  When you dress it, you removed the OD ecentricity which is most of the imbalance.  What do you mean diamond dressing stone?  You use a diamond point mounted on the table to dress not a stone....that way you get the OD truly concentric



The English language sucks. My use of it only makes it worse. 

To me, anything that holds something else in place while it spins is an arbour. But since there is other hardware that is more appropriately called an arbour for this application, I should have called it an adapter. 

Sorry also for my misleading description. My original oem adapter (very old) has no recess. It also has relatively low contact on the large diameter of the taper on the adapter. The correct Sopko adapter (cross checked with multiple sources) for my machine has a recess. Maybe they know something that KOLee didn't.  Therefore I wonder about the wisdom of making a new arbour with or without the recess. Looking for advice on that. 

By diamond stone, I mean diamond point. It does a great job of dressing my wheel. 

You are a talented, experienced, and knowledgeable member @Mcgyver. I know that from reading your many excellent posts. If you say my wheels do not need balancing, you have my full attention. However, that advice at least seems to conflict with what I have read and been given elsewhere. So now you have me doubting the need to balance my wheels. But regardless of that, I'd like to make a Combo balancing adapter. If for no other reason than because I can and someday I'll have the time to actually do it. That will also provide an opportunity to experiment and see whether or not balancing makes any difference. 

I confess that I actually searched YouTube for videos on surface plate setup and wheel balancing. The first (and last) video I looked at was one by Suburban Tools. When he took a drill to the stone to balance it, I pressed stop and abandoned you tube once again. First he talks about the need to make sure the wheel is not cracked, and then he drills holes in it! I have to wonder about my sanity even giving it that one shot. I really don't care if anyone else does it that way. It's way too much like playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun for me. I'm NOT doing that no matter who says it's ok.


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

Ian Moss said:


> In my experience, the arbor does not have a recess. Your picture is for the wheel mounting hub that does have a recess. I suspect that this makes the hub easier to remove when changing wheels. It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing. I use 5 minute epoxy to add weight to the light side of wheel/hub assemblies. The epoxy sticks well to the stone and can be made slightly heavy and then trimmed to  balance with a sanding sleeve in a Dremel tool. I add the epoxy to both sides of the  wheel in equal amounts since adding weight to only one side of the wheel may provide balance in a static test but could potentially contribute some small dynamic imbalance at speed.



Sounds Good. I like devcon plastic steel epoxy.


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## gerritv (May 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> In looking at the Sopko arbour, I noticed that they have a recess in the taper. I don't know why. I would guess it is to improve the taper fit. But doing it that way also reduces the contact area.


The drawing is for a hub, you need one per wheel. Even on a d-bit grinder there is no point mounting wheels on the actual shaft. Which is why I made a batch for the Alexander.

The relief 'T' is to reduce the risk of grit and marring from messing with the fit of the taper on spindle. These hubs don't need a lot of surface to hold well on the taper. And makes it easier to release.

Re: balancing, recent experience of a friend here would indicate that balance is vital. You could feel the floor vibrate slightly when the wheel was up to speed. A brief balancing session (with a balancing hub) and now smooth as silk. Then you dress the grinding surface and sides, then check balance for good measure.

Here is a video from an instructor (not a YT personality looking for subscribers) on how to balance a wheel: 



Gerrit


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

gerritv said:


> The drawing is for a hub, you need one per wheel. Even on a d-bit grinder there is no point mounting wheels on the actual shaft. Which is why I made a batch for the Alexander.
> 
> The relief 'T' is to reduce the risk of grit and marring from messing with the fit of the taper on spindle. These hubs don't need a lot of surface to hold well on the taper. And makes it easier to release.
> 
> ...



OK @gerritv. On the strength of your advice I'll watch one more video - when I get home.


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## gerritv (May 23, 2022)

I avoid wathcing the 'Im a personality looking to make money off YT nonsense' 'machinists' Like Ave, Abom and a load of others. ThatLazyMachinist is an ex-instructor, he has excellent videos, theory and practical. OTOH Suburban Tool makes a living grinding and rebuilding grinders. He isn't the first to remove some material from a wheel to balance it. But it wouldn't be my preference due to lack of practice, and nerve.


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## Mcgyver (May 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> If you say my wheels do not need balancing, you have my full attention. However, that advice at least seems to conflict with what I have read and been given elsewhere.



thanks for the kind remarks.  Its shades of grey and probabilities imo.   Most commercial guys afaik don't balance them, which is a function of their working with larger heavy grinders that damp small vibrations better than light.  I would argue with those guys that you can't  completely dismiss the idea of balancing,  balancing might matter on a small light grinder.  That's a bit theoretical in that results depends on wheel, finish desired, work etc...but in my practical experience balancing is not necessary or critical to success.   I'll rephrase that...in my experience the state of balance _after _dressing the OD of a _quality _wheel is good enough.  Dressing removes the OD eccentricity which is most of the imbalance and so long as the wheel is not disturbed (that's why put a VFD on the SG, so there is no jarring to disturb the wheel) it should work well.

I do recall once a Camel wheel that was so badly out of balance it was unusable dressed or not.  I balanced it and its work well since.

It won't hurt to balance, I just didn't find it very impactful when I was chasing the best finish possible.  A very well balanced motor, 3P, flood, soft start, quality wheel correctly selected, properly mounted chuck, dressed wheel etc are what had biggest impact.  If you are going to balance you definitely need to fix the wheel to the adapter and leave it on the adapter for balancing and grinding...if you take it off the adapter you start over.


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

gerritv said:


> I avoid wathcing the 'Im a personality looking to make money off YT nonsense' 'machinists' Like Ave, Abom and a load of others. ThatLazyMachinist is an ex-instructor, he has excellent videos, theory and practical. OTOH Suburban Tool makes a living grinding and rebuilding grinders. He isn't the first to remove some material from a wheel to balance it. But it wouldn't be my preference due to lack of practice, and nerve.



I think that is a pretty good way to look at it. I don't trust the self anointed experts, those with vested interests, or the personalities. I'm ok with learning from someone who genuinely has the skills, experience, knowledge, and desire to teach it.

I share your "nerve" reservations. That pretty much sums it up. Ive seen first hand what grinding and cutoff wheels can do when they decide to let go. Even if suburban drills grind stones for a living, and really does know what he is talking about, I think it's irresponsible to suggest that greenhorns should do that. You should watch the video to see first hand what he did to a wheel. Unbelievable.


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> thanks for the kind remarks.  Its shades of grey and probabilities imo.   Most commercial guys afaik don't balance them, which is a function of their working with larger heavy grinders that damp small vibrations better than light.  I would argue with those guys that you can't  completely dismiss the idea of balancing,  balancing might matter on a small light grinder.  That's a bit theoretical in that results depends on wheel, finish desired, work etc...but in my practical experience balancing is not necessary or critical to success.   I'll rephrase that...in my experience the state of balance _after _dressing the OD of a _quality _wheel is good enough.  Dressing removes the OD eccentricity which is most of the imbalance and so long as the wheel is not disturbed (that's why put a VFD on the SG, so there is no jarring to disturb the wheel) it should work well.
> 
> I do recall once a Camel wheel that was so badly out of balance it was unusable dressed or not.  I balanced it and its work well since.
> 
> It won't hurt to balance, I just didn't find it very impactful when I was chasing the best finish possible.  A very well balanced motor, 3P, flood, soft start, quality wheel correctly selected, properly mounted chuck, dressed wheel etc are what had biggest impact.  If you are going to balance you definitely need to fix the wheel to the adapter and leave it on the adapter for balancing and grinding...if you take it off the adapter you start over.



Good info @Mcgyver . Thank you.


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## Mcgyver (May 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> . Even if suburban drills grind stones for a living, and really does know what he is talking about, I think it's irresponsible to suggest that greenhorns should do that. You should watch the video to see first hand what he did to a wheel. Unbelievable.



Is there a link here somewhere...now you've got me curious!


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Is there a link here somewhere...now you've got me curious!


If @YYCHM doesn't beat me to it, I'll send you one when I get back home.


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## Dabbler (May 24, 2022)

I was trained by a grinder hand.  He balanced every wheel, regardless of intended use.  He felt it was unprofessional to do otherwise.

In his later years, he remounted a wheel and spent an hour getting it 'perfect'  it was fascinating to be there and see him do it. and have him explain in detail as to why.

He did many feats of outstanding accuracy in his time, and always chased sub tenths accuracy in his grinding.

I'll never be as good as he was, but I balance all the wheels that I can - diamond wheels are can be particularly difficult - and gind the best I can.  My grinder is a Brown and Sharpe Valuemaster 612.  A solid, capable machine...  I'm sure I'll never get good enough to need a more accurate one.


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## RobinHood (May 24, 2022)

Here is the Suburban Tool Inc video. At the 8 min mark Don gets into balancing. He does not show the actual “drilling” process to remove the material.






Stan, in this video shows how to use a drill press to balance a grinder wheel.


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Here is the Suburban Tool Inc video. At the 8 min mark Don gets into balancing. He does not show the actual “drilling” process to remove the material.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@Mcgyver - You can see the drill marks at 9:26 to 9:50 in the video @RobinHood provided.  Suburban Tool goes on to say that this is insignificant.....






Three holes in a nice stress raiser lineup. Surface flaked off from pounding with what was probably a masonry drill...... Looks like a mine-field. Calls that "insignificant". Lordy Lordy......

Like I said before, I would NEVER tell someone else to do that even if I were as much an expert as he claims to be.


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## Dabbler (May 24, 2022)

I have balanced AO wheels with a masonry bit in a drill press.  There *are* rules for safety.  You never go more than 1/4 the thickness of the wheel in drill depth.  You also never make it a hole (no cylindrical section) but just make the 'vee'...  This minimizes the stress rising.  I was taught to stagger the holes with at lease 1/3 diameter between holes.

Remember the only force that is significant is an even force in tension - there is little radial force - or there'd better not be... I know Surburban do a pretty deep roughing pass, but the feed speed is very slow with a Very Coarse wheel, which limits those forces (as well as coolant)

I treat grinding operations a delicate operation, and minimize my cut depth and feed rate to minimize heating and reduce stress on the machine.  It is the old adage "go slow - but not too slow'

When taking  tenth or less, I go very fast to reduce glazing the wheel.  Again very low stress.


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I have balanced AO wheels with a masonry bit in a drill press.  There *are* rules for safety.  You never go more than 1/4 the thickness of the wheel in drill depth.  You also never make it a hole (no cylindrical section) but just make the 'vee'...  This minimizes the stress rising.  I was taught to stagger the holes with at lease 1/3 diameter between holes.
> 
> Remember the only force that is significant is an even force in tension - there is little radial force - or there'd better not be... I know Surburban do a pretty deep roughing pass, but the feed speed is very slow with a Very Coarse wheel, which limits those forces (as well as coolant)
> 
> ...



That sounds a lot better than what Suburban did. 

What does this vee look like and how is it made? Drill on an angle so it scoops a little gouge out?


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## gerritv (May 24, 2022)

it's the same as what Suburban tool did, you go only as far as the tip width, as in a dimple, no side walls.


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2022)

gerritv said:


> it's the same as what Suburban tool did, you go only as far as the tip width, as in a dimple, no side walls.



I see. Makes sense. 

My examination of the suburban drilling is that it was significantly deeper than that. Especially the small hole on the left in my photo. It's hard to tell what they all did. Mostly it looks like a butcher job. 

But maybe I'm being too hard on them.


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## Degen (May 24, 2022)

I vaguely remember something about air shafts for grinders in high school oh some many years ago.  Basically the stone was centered by an air shaft thereby balancing itself.  Each start up requires dressing to get it balanced.

Strangely enough all the used stuff I've seen does not have air shafts.


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2022)

Degen said:


> I vaguely remember something about air shafts for grinders in high school oh some many years ago.  Basically the stone was centered by an air shaft thereby balancing itself.  Each start up requires dressing to get it balanced.
> 
> Strangely enough all the used stuff I've seen does not have air shafts.



Do you mean airr shaft or air bearing?


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## Degen (May 24, 2022)

Not sure, it was high school oh to many years ago.


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Degen said:


> Not sure, it was high school oh to many years ago.



A weird machine tool followed me home the other day along with a cadre of more recognizable tools. I have no idea what it's for but I'm betting it has an air bearing in there someplace....... See the second photo.....


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

While I'm thinking about grinding wheel issues,

I was contemplating grinding some locators for some of my mill equipment when it suddenly dawned on me why some people call a machinist's vise a grinding vise!

Up till now I've been wondering how and why anyone would ever use one with a bench grinder!

But I'm betting I can put a machinists vise on the magnetic chuck of my surface grinder and it suddenly becomes..... A GRINDING VISE!

Funny how owning new and different equipment suddenly changes your perspective of certain things! LOL!


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Nobody have a guess?  Seems like the detours got us WAY OFF COURSE and I never got an answer to my question. My sincere apologies if I missed any comments that were provided. 

Post in thread 'Another stray machine followed me home.' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/another-stray-machine-followed-me-home.5211/post-77099

Maybe members prefer to critique someone else's thoughts. So I'll take a crack at answering my own question. 

I'm thinking that the taper on these grinding wheel adapters is not very precise. In fact, I've seen 3 inches in 12 and other measurements like 2.97 in 12 and a few others floating around.

Making an entire taper fit from back to front prolly isn't very easy to do across the whole length of the adapter taper. In that case, maybe two much shorter sections separated by a recess might improve the fit of the adapter to the spindle taper.

In other words, the recess provides the opportunity to tighten the taper enough to get a good fit.

Best I can do. Anyone disagree?

Second question - for the replacement adapter I am making, do I cut a recess or leave the entire taper intact across its length? Either way, why?


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## Dabbler (May 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> machine tool


It is a grinding spinner.  Gotteswinter motorized his and Renzetti has made a Harig clone of a similar design.  It is used to provide a slow constant rate of spin to accurately grind tapers and cylinders.

If you don't want it I'm sure Dabblers Custom Recycling could find a use for it! (just kidding)


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## Degen (May 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> A weird machine tool followed me home the other day along with a cadre of more recognizable tools. I have no idea what it's for but I'm betting it has an air bearing in there someplace....... See the second photo..... View attachment 24111
> 
> View attachment 24112


Could also be a clamping release or latch.


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Degen said:


> Could also be a clamping release or latch.



Perhaps. The air connection doesn't seem to do anything right now no matter what I feed it.


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## Degen (May 25, 2022)

I was thinking more on the "air shaft", as I recall my HS days, the wheel rode (centered on air) even though it was clamped (enough to spin the wheel).  This allowed it to balance itself so to speak, unfortunately this required dressing on each startup as a new balance point was found, during use the wheel remained balanced.  Again I may be wrong on this but this is how I understood it based on what was explained (and what I remember).

Air bearings done correctly allow for a near friction free and ultra smooth operation while maintaining ultra precision.


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> It is a grinding spinner.  Gotteswinter motorized his and Renzetti has made a Harig clone of a similar design.  It is used to provide a slow constant rate of spin to accurately grind tapers and cylinders.
> 
> If you don't want it I'm sure Dabblers Custom Recycling could find a use for it! (just kidding)



I see. That makes some sense.

If you look at the first picture, you can see that it's already motorized. The wiring is foobared though. Prolly not a big deal to fix.

Someday I'll be heading west. When that happens, it just might be right sized for transporting to Dabbler's Custom Recycling......

Do you think it's worth doing an assessment of repairability?


Degen said:


> I was thinking more on the "air shaft", as I recall my HS days, the wheel rode (centered on air) even though it was clamped (enough to spin the wheel).  This allowed it to balance itself so to speak, unfortunately this required dressing on each startup as a new balance point was found, during use the wheel remained balanced.  Again I may be wrong on this but this is how I understood it based on what was explained (and what I remember).
> 
> Air bearings done correctly allow for a near friction free and ultra smooth operation while maintaining ultra precision.



Sorry, I don't see how that air shaft thing works. Might be a giant gap in my knowledge base. 

Yes to the air bearing.


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## Degen (May 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I see. That makes some sense.
> 
> If you look at the first picture, you can see that it's already motorized. The wiring is foobared though. Prolly not a big deal to fix.
> 
> ...


It is like an air bearing but the air cushions the wheel on the shaft.


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Degen said:


> It is like an air bearing but the air cushions the wheel on the shaft.



I guess I'll have to read up on it.

Fundamentally, I don't understand why this air shaft thing takes a set and then stays there. If it works like an air bearing, any offset should imbalance the pressure which in turn should force it back where it belongs.


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## Dabbler (May 25, 2022)

-- it might be coroded.  If it is, that may be why it won't turn.  (but I'm no air bearing expert)


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## Susquatch (May 26, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> -- it might be coroded.  If it is, that may be why it won't turn.  (but I'm no air bearing expert)



This is very possible. When the machinist who had it died, nobody maintained the humidity in his shop. There is light corrosion on much of the tooling I got there. It's easy to imagine a little internal corrosion too.


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## Rauce (May 26, 2022)

That thing is what I know as a radius dresser/punch pin grinder.

Allows one to do cylindrical grinding operations or with a diamond dresser, to put a radius on the wheel.

I don’t know much about air bearings but if that’s what it has, it’s a sign it’s a very high quality tool.


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## Dabbler (May 26, 2022)

I just bought a punch grinding fixture.  A Taiwanese Harig clone.  It is very likely that @Susquatch has a shop-built one, with an air bearing, but now seized.

I'm thinking citric acid in water at 120 degrees F might get into the gaps- one could infulse the cirtic acid solution through the air inlet...  Does it hold pressure, I wonder?


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## Susquatch (May 26, 2022)

Rauce said:


> That thing is what I know as a radius dresser/punch pin grinder.
> 
> Allows one to do cylindrical grinding operations or with a diamond dresser, to put a radius on the wheel.
> 
> I don’t know much about air bearings but if that’s what it has, it’s a sign it’s a very high quality tool.



Parts of it look high quality. Parts of it don't.


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## Susquatch (May 26, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I just bought a punch grinding fixture.  A Taiwanese Harig clone.  It is very likely that @Susquatch has a shop-built one, with an air bearing, but now seized.
> 
> I'm thinking citric acid in water at 120 degrees F might get into the gaps- one could infulse the cirtic acid solution through the air inlet...  Does it hold pressure, I wonder?



Did your dad ever spend  time in Sask?

Ive been wondering similar things. Specifically wondered about running some oiled air through it or a few drops of penetrating oil. I had planned some research before doing so to make sure I don't damage it or 

To be honest, I didn't check to see if it held air. I had thought air bearings needed to be vented in order to work and so I just assumed that they leaked.

More research......

I don't plan to take it apart until I feel that I know enough to know how little I know...... Lol!


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## Susquatch (Aug 12, 2022)

Time for a bit of an update.

@Canadium stopped by for a visit yesterday. We had fun. I had wanted to get somebody to help me take the table off but we ran out of time. He asked why I didn't just use my engine hoist and I was embarrassed to have to admit that I had to move too much stuff to get it at the grinder. Sometimes you just have to admit that the problem is the guy in the mirror, not the stuff on the floor.

So today I moved everything and took the table off. I was a bit surprised by what I found. One oiling roller missing and two bent. It was easy to fix the bent rollers. Replacing the missing one will be a bear.






I can make the roller easy enough, but that spring......

Anybody know where I could find such a thing........

Edit - also, there are 3 on each way. Do you think I could live without the center one?


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## David_R8 (Aug 12, 2022)

I'd get in touch with LeBlond and see if they have parts.








						K.O. Lee Service Parts for Repair from LeBlond Ltd.
					

Service Parts and Support Today LeBlond Ltd can provide can provide you with the right K.O. Lee service part and knowledge to keep your equipment in operati ...




					leblondusa.com


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## Mcgyver (Aug 12, 2022)

I wouldn't just skip it, but that might be a $500 part from Leblond .

It shouldn't be too hard to make, if you can get some spring stock.  A piece of steel strapping will often work (if its not precisely spring steel, it often sure seems like it).  With a propane torch it is quick and easy to get it red for the bend, the harden and temper again.  Strapping comes in different thickness so I'd be thinking a light one, but even if not, just put less of a bend in it so barely presses up.  performance demands are as negligible as a spring ever saw.


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## Susquatch (Aug 12, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> I'd get in touch with LeBlond and see if they have parts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll give them a call. Who knows. I'd like a user manual anyway.


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## Susquatch (Aug 12, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> I wouldn't just skip it, but that might be a $500 part from Leblond .
> 
> It shouldn't be too hard to make, if you can get some spring stock.  A piece of steel strapping will often (if its not spring steel, it often seems like it).  With a propane torch is quick and easy to get it red for the bend, the harden and temper again.  Strapping comes in different thickness so I'd be thinking a light one, but even if not, just put less of a bend in it so barely presses up.  performance demands are as negligible as a spring ever saw.



You are right, the work load is minimal. The spring really just keeps the wheel in contact with the way. It doesn't even flex back and forth. 

I'll try LeBlond first. But if that doesn't work out, I could see myself making one your way. Be a Lotta cursing going on here though.


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## David_R8 (Aug 12, 2022)

The wheel springs on my Parker-Majestic were very simple affairs that could have easily been made from steel strapping. Yours look a bit more involved.


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## Dusty (Aug 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You are right, the work load is minimal. The spring really just keeps the wheel in contact with the way. It doesn't even flex back and forth.
> 
> I'll try LeBlond first. But if that doesn't work out, I could see myself making one your way. Be a Lotta cursing going on here though.



Cussing not allowed and the job goes much easier. Just saying!


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 13, 2022)

Since i quite smoking cussing is the only thing keeping me going when i'm fixing.


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## Dusty (Aug 13, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Since i quite smoking cussing is the only thing keeping me going when i'm fixing.



As you know my garage/shop is attached right next to the kitchen, generally I don't wear my hearing aids in the shop so its difficult for me to  hear my wife letting out our dog. Besides that with our side walk and raspberry patch right next to the garage and with great-grandkids coming over picking raspberry's now that schools out I've learned not to be vocal in the shop. Wrath of one's good wife is far worse than mumbling cuss word aloud.

Having 40 acres to chase one's herd around is likely a different situation, believe you understand. LOL


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2022)

Dusty said:


> As you know my garage/shop is attached right next to the kitchen, generally I don't wear my hearing aids in the shop so its difficult for me to  hear my wife letting out our dog. Besides that with our side walk and raspberry patch right next to the garage and great-grandkids coming over picking raspberry's now that schools out I've learned not to be vocal in the shop. Wrath of one's good wife is far worse than mumbling cuss word aloud.
> 
> Having 40 acres to chase one's herd around is likely a different situation, believe you understand. LOL



I'm on the cussing side of this equation. And FWI, my bride thinks my cussing is cute cuz it makes me look more human than I looked before I retired. Just not in front on the grandkids. That gets an instant "you are cutoff you idiot" reaction. It's a very effective strategy. A day and a night of that and I tend to behave. Two can play that game of course, but I'm much less inclined to be stubborn and have no will power so her use of that tactic is much more effective than mine. I guess I'm just a foul mouthed pushover.


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## Dusty (Aug 13, 2022)

@Susquatch only time my bride thinks I'm cute is when she catches me in my birthday suit, then she points her finger at me and laughs and laughs and laughs.

Modesty goes out the window.


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## whydontu (Aug 13, 2022)

Dusty said:


> @Susquatch only time my bride thinks I'm cute is when she catches me in my birthday suit, then she points her finger at me and laughs and laughs and laughs.
> 
> Modesty goes out the window.


Can someone on this forum make one of those Men In Black memory-eraser thingies so I can delete this mental image?


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 14, 2022)

Since my wife passed away i only have the 2 boys in the house and as long as i feed them they don't care what kind of language i may or may not use around the house.  I can even walk around the house in my birthday suit without being laughed at.


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## Tom O (Aug 14, 2022)

Reminds me of a Silly Sally joke!


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## Doggggboy (Aug 14, 2022)

whydontu said:


> Can someone on this forum make one of those Men In Black memory-eraser thingies so I can delete this mental image?


It's called tequila.


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