# Milling Machine DRO



## Tomc938 (May 11, 2021)

Now that I have my RF 30 mill home, I'm considering adding a DRO as the first accessory. I've seen that Amazon and eBay have some at fairly reasonable prices.

Does anyone have experience with these units? Is there a brand/style you would recommend?

I'm also wondering about length of the sensor for the X axis. Some of the cheaper kits just come with a 5 inch sensor. I'm thinking more like 18 to 24 inches?  Maybe 5 for the Y axis?


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## Darren (May 11, 2021)

I had a chinese ebay dro on my old lathe, and it was great. No issues


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## David_R8 (May 11, 2021)

This is what I put on my RF clone.
The LCD display was a big reason why I picked it. Programming things like bolt circles, arcs etc is graphical so it's easier for my brain to understand.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000006632582.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.63004c4dgwUzUV


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## YYCHM (May 11, 2021)

I've got the same AliExpress DRO on my RF30 as David, but I sure didn't pay that much for it.   It was $307 CAD shipped.  I like it a lot.  You specify scale lengths when you order.

What's with AliExpress shipping rates these days?


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## DPittman (May 11, 2021)

I also have the same dro ( bought based on other forum members recommendations) I believe mine was about $320 to my door.  
Yes Aliexpress shipping rates are mostly unreasonable and out of this world.


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## Tomc938 (May 11, 2021)

Thanks David!  Ali was looking for around $100 for shipping.  Think they are using it to pad the price.

What length of scales did you use? (If you remember)

Thanks!

Tom


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## David_R8 (May 11, 2021)

Tomc938 said:


> Thanks David!  Ali was looking for around $100 for shipping.  Think they are using it to pad the price.
> 
> What length of scales did you use? (If you remember)
> 
> ...


Good gawd that shipping is expensive!
I don't recall the length to be honest but they were too long when they arrived. I cut them to length with my horizontal bandsaw. Easy-peasy.
Somewhere here is my install...


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## YYCHM (May 11, 2021)

Here is David's install https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/dro-install-on-a-lc-30a-mill-rf-30-clone.1996/

And the scales aren't so easy-peasy to cut down.  The end of my X-Axis scale shattered when I attempted to cut it down in the bandsaw.  Wrong presentation to the bandsaw blade I think.


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## David_R8 (May 11, 2021)

The glass in the scales can break. When I cut mine I was careful to place the scale so the glass was horizontal and I held the saw up so it scored the glass. Once scored it cut as though it were cheese.


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## Tom O (May 12, 2021)

That sounds scary to me I think I’d try a diamond tool like a dremel or similar


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## David_R8 (May 12, 2021)

Tom O said:


> That sounds scary to me I think I’d try a diamond tool like a dremel or similar


It was really simple. Even if you use a dremel the glass has to be trimmed back from the end so the end cap can go on and there's no room to fit a dremel inside the scale extrusion. I just nibbled away with a set of needle nose pliers till the cap fit on.


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## Tom Kitta (May 12, 2021)

I have two sets of Chinese DRO. Both work great. Highly recommended. Premium sets are better then average US made stuff for 10x the price. Even for commercial use 24x7 I would recommend Chinese DRO.


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## YotaBota (May 12, 2021)

I was just on Ali and they want $300 plus *$151* shipping for the DRO in the link from David_R8. 
Is the LCD worth that much in shipping?


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## YYCHM (May 12, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> I was just on Ali and they want $300 plus *$151* shipping for the DRO in the link from David_R8.
> Is the LCD worth that much in shipping?



No, AliExpress shipping rates appear to have gone crazy recently.  I landed the same unit for just over $300 before Covid.


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## Tom Kitta (May 12, 2021)

WOW - I got a DRO like... two months ago? Let me see how much I paid... 217 CAD with shipping included. It was 2 axis model for my lathe. No Lcd, just regular. Regular precision. Shipped UPS. 

Current price is the same. Same shipping. All the same.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32919941724.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.224181d3LB0tj8


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## Hacker (May 13, 2021)

Regarding the shipping on AliExpress this is usually for delivery within a few weeks. I have ordered Sandvik inserts from a dealer in China and I received them in two weeks. Small items are very reasonable shipping with AliExpress, it is the larger or heavier ones that are expensive. I usually contact the vendor and see if they are willing to do alternate shipping or adjust the rates. Some do others do not. I believe what has happen is that China Post has been overloaded and delivery times have turned into months. I waited over 10 weeks for an item coming through China Post.


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## Tomc938 (May 13, 2021)

That's quite the range of shipping costs!  Shipping must be set (like eBay) by the various suppliers of the parts.  

So free or $151.  Your choice I guess.


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## YYCHM (May 13, 2021)

AliExpress shipping is all over the map right now.  Just ordered 4 HD Leveling Casters with free shipping and it appears they were shipped UPS Expedited with a claimed delivery of date of May 15 - May 17.  

Ya, May 15 - May 17, I'll believe that when I see it LOL.


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## David_R8 (May 13, 2021)

I didn't think that you could use "UPS" and "free" in the same paragraph let alone the same sentence!


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## YYCHM (May 13, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> I didn't think that you could use "UPS" and "free" in the same paragraph let alone the same sentence!



Dunno…. it was listed as AliExpress Standard Shipping.  But the tracking info is UPS Expedited?


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## phaxtris (May 13, 2021)

keep looking on ali express, i buy quite a few things from them and bang good, you can usually find a retailer with free shipping the base cost is just typically higher


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## YYCHM (May 13, 2021)

phaxtris said:


> keep looking on ali express, i buy quite a few things from them and bang good, you can usually find a retailer with free shipping the base cost is just typically higher



Yup, like a set of 4 casters for $40 (great!) oh.. $150 in shipping (not so great) then $70 for 4 casters and free shipping... well that's better but not great.


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## Tomc938 (May 14, 2021)

David,

When you have a chance would you be willing to measure the length of your scales?  If they aren't too hard to access.  I would rather order the right size than have to cut them down, and possibly break (for sure break with my luck lately) the glass.


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2021)

Will do, bear in mind that the X-axis length depends on the size of your table. Mine is short'ish at 28" (I think)


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## Brent H (May 14, 2021)

@David_R8 : it's all in the way you use it!


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Will do, bear in mind that the X-axis length depends on the size of your table. Mine is short'ish at 28" (I think)



Good David said it.  My table is bigger than David's and your PDM may be different yet again.  You have to measure and keep in mind the scale lengths come in incremental lengths.  So if you don't want to mess with the scale you will probably have to live with a scale that's not quite the optimal length.  Then again, are you really ever going to use the full length of your table?  Probably not.


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Good David said it. My table is bigger than David's and your PDM may be different yet again. You have to measure and keep in mind the scale lengths come in incremental lengths. So if you don't want to mess with the scale you will probably have to live with a scale that's not quite the optimal length. Then again, are really ever going to use the full length of your table? Probably not.



This is very true. 
My C-axis scale is the full length of my table but there no way that use the full length of it because the hand wheels hit the base before I reach the end of the scale.


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2021)

@Tomc938 
My Y axis scale is 15.25" long 
Z axis is 11" long. It could be 10" long because at 11" it hit the underneath of the belt housing. 
My X axis scale is as long as my table at 24"
I can go all the way to the right end of the table but not the left side because I have a power feed on the left side which takes up about 3 inches.


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## YYCHM (May 15, 2021)

This is the same seller I got mine from. Same model as well.....

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...home.smartLeaderboard_725393586.4001238045156

$325 and free shipping via DHL.


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## Tomc938 (May 16, 2021)

Thanks for the guidance!  My table is 30", but I can imagine that I would seldom do a project that requires  5 micron measurement over 30"!

The Y and Z lengths are also very helpful. 

Hopefully I will have a spot cleared in my garage and have it up on the stand so I can give it a whirl.


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## YYCHM (May 16, 2021)

My DRO install starts here  https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/rf30-basement-install.2175/page-25#post-28265  And I mounted my z-axis scale in exactly the same manner as @David_R8 did.


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## Tomc938 (May 17, 2021)

Well this is going to take longer than I though.  I tore the muscle in my calf yesterday and will be on crutches for the next little while.  What a great start to summer.......


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## David_R8 (May 17, 2021)

Oh man, that's a total drag. Rest up!!!!


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## YYCHM (May 17, 2021)

Yikes!   How did that happen?


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## Tomc938 (May 17, 2021)

Like most injuries that happen to us "older males", I wasn't acting my age.  I went to sprinting up the stairs two it a time, and when I pushed off I heard a loud snap, felt like something and hit me in the back of the calf, and basically went face first into the stairs.

I think I might've strained the leg doing some snowshoeing on one of our local mountains a couple months back.

Will make for a lot more boring summer than I had hoped.  On the upside I don't really have much pain unless I try to move it.


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## cuslog (May 22, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> WOW - I got a DRO like... two months ago? Let me see how much I paid... 217 CAD with shipping included. It was 2 axis model for my lathe. No Lcd, just regular. Regular precision. Shipped UPS.
> 
> Current price is the same. Same shipping. All the same.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32919941724.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.224181d3LB0tj8



So, I was looking at one of these, a 2 axis for my lathe. Is there somewhere in the ordering process where they ask you what length of scales you want / need or do they just ship both scales "plenty long" and its up to you to cut them ?


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## DPittman (May 22, 2021)

cuslog said:


> So, I was looking at one of these, a 2 axis for my lathe. Is there somewhere in the ordering process where they ask you what length of scales you want / need or do they just ship both scales "plenty long" and its up to you to cut them ?


Yes the dro I ordered from Aliexpress asked the scale size when I made the order and cut them to correct size.


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## Dusty (May 22, 2021)

Tomc938 said:


> Well this is going to take longer than I though.  I tore the muscle in my calf yesterday and will be on crutches for the next little while.  What a great start to summer.......



Somehow I can relate to your disability, take care and get well soon.


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## YYCHM (May 22, 2021)

cuslog said:


> So, I was looking at one of these, a 2 axis for my lathe. Is there somewhere in the ordering process where they ask you what length of scales you want / need or do they just ship both scales "plenty long" and its up to you to cut them ?


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## Johnwa (May 22, 2021)

@YYCHM i‘ve been wondering if a DRO makes the round column issue disappear.  What’s your experience?


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## YYCHM (May 22, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> @YYCHM i‘ve been wondering if a DRO makes the round column issue disappear.  What’s your experience?



Disappear in what way?


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## Johnwa (May 22, 2021)

I assume that if you have a position that you can re-zero the DRO to, then losing position when raising and lowering the head wouldn’t be an issue.  It would be a bit of a PITA to have to re-zero though.


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## PeterT (May 22, 2021)

I don't think so John. The work is DRO registered in XY but the mill head has no idea where it is relative to spindle axis once its been raised or lowered around the post & potentially swiveled round it. That's why the stabilizing arms or other mechanical fixes. 

But you know.... assuming the head can only drift by pivoting around the post (vs any nod or tram change as a function of being raised or lowered) - if you could hook up a sensitive 'radial' displacement DRO so the mill head knows where it was relative to the post, that might work. Click zero/null before raising head, raise head, display says drifted 1.2345 degrees. This time, rather than kick the cat, rotate back to 0.000 readout, lock head. Theoretically its back inline relative to table XY work which hasn't changed. The trick is you need some kind of zero reference encoder strip up the entire column that wont interfere with normal movement.


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## YYCHM (May 22, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> I assume that if you have a position that you can re-zero the DRO to, then losing position when raising and lowering the head wouldn’t be an issue.  It would be a bit of a PITA to have to re-zero though.



No, the DRO doesn't help with the spindle changing X/Y location when the head is raised or lowered.


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## Tomc938 (May 22, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> @YYCHM i‘ve been wondering if a DRO makes the round column issue disappear.  What’s your experience?



I'm afraid not.  The DRO measures travel along a specific axis.  X and Y and Z.  You can set up a part in the mill, zero the DRO in all three axis.  Then you can turn the head 360" to the back side of the mill.  The X,Y and Z points will not change.  All will still be 0.  But in this configuration you will not get much milling done!

Now if someone could come up with a very accurate rotational sensor, you could get back to where you started within the error of the sensor. (Hmm.  Maybe that would be a good project!)


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## Tomc938 (May 22, 2021)

So you can purchase rotational sensors.  Might be interesting to try. There are several at Digi-key in the $50-80 range.

They say they are accurate to 20 minutes of arc - at 500 rpm.  (I'm guessing most of us would not move the head at anything near that speed) so it would be interesting to see how that would translate into accuracy on the table.  I guess you would need a way to move the head around the column with reasonable accuracy.


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## Tomc938 (May 22, 2021)

So I decided to do the math.  Assuming I still remember how, 20' = 0.3333 degrees.  The spacing on my mill from quill to column is 400 mm - you would have to add column and quill radius to get to the centre points.  I didn't. 

tan (0.33333)=O/400.  Do the math (again, assuming I did it right) and the error could be 2 mm.  I guess the question would be:  Can you zero the rotational sensor and return it to zero with any accuracy? 

Now I should go do what I should be doing.  ;o)


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## PeterT (May 22, 2021)

Ya I suspect its a no-go for reasons you mention. The device would have to be highly accurate (expensive) & even so, the radial distance from post center to quill center exaggerates the discrepancy. Every time I get a bright idea about how to remedy the round column positioning issue, I realize someone else has already thought about & extinguished it. Or worse yet I realize its the same idea I had 4 years ago & already forgot about it so it seems new again. Sorry round posters, the mechanical alignment constraints are probably still the way to go.

Or... a graduated series of long center finders. (There I go again )


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## DPittman (May 22, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Or worse yet I realize its the same idea I had 4 years ago & already forgot about it so it seems new again.


Hee hee, I can TOTALLY relate to that!


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## Tom Kitta (May 22, 2021)

They sadly do not seem to make a square column more expensive drill mill. The RF40 / RF45 are both gear head drilling machines. RF35 is a round column mini baby radial arm drill. 

There is no RF35 machine that would be just like RF30/31 but with a square column and step pulley.

Gear heads are pita as you cannot run them fast. Top speed of 1500 rpm may be only exceeded by a bit, maybe 1800 tops. That is ... kind of slow.


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## Dusty (May 22, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I don't think so John. The work is DRO registered in XY but the mill head has no idea where it is relative to spindle axis once its been raised or lowered around the post & potentially swiveled round it. That's why the stabilizing arms or other mechanical fixes.
> 
> But you know.... assuming the head can only drift by pivoting around the post (vs any nod or tram change as a function of being raised or lowered) - if you could hook up a sensitive 'radial' displacement DRO so the mill head knows where it was relative to the post, that might work. Click zero/null before raising head, raise head, display says drifted 1.2345 degrees. This time, rather than kick the cat, rotate back to 0.000 readout, lock head. Theoretically its back inline relative to table XY work which hasn't changed. The trick is you need some kind of zero reference encoder strip up the entire column that wont interfere with normal movement.



Looking at Peter's photo, lets say you could scribe a true line up and down the column to the right side when facing the mill. True the mill head then put a matching mark to marry up with the column scribe. As long as the head mark matches the scribe you should be in business whenever the head is raised or lowered. Or did I miss something with this thinking??? 

Of course the column and spindle need be on the same plane which one assumes they are from factory.


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## DPittman (May 22, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Looking at Peter's photo, lets say you could scribe a true line up and down the column to the right side when facing the mill. True the mill head then put a matching mark to marry up with the column scribe. As long as the head mark matches the scribe you should be in business whenever the head is raised or lowered. Or did I miss something with this thinking???
> 
> Of course the column and spindle need be on the same plane which one assumes they are from factory.


That would be accurate enough for a drill press but not a milling machine... at least in my opinion.


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## Johnwa (May 22, 2021)

I’m not sure that I agree.  For example if you always re-zero to a corner of your workpiece then any x/y dimension from that corner should be correct.   Even if you rotate the head once you re-zero it should work.   Am I missing something?


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## Dusty (May 22, 2021)

DPittman said:


> That would be accurate enough for a drill press but not a milling machine... at least in my opinion.



We've all seen the home made remedies to cure the round column mill raise/lower issue. In my view they are basically identical as to what I suggest for anyone without DRO equipment and running manual. What say you!

I believe this is what Johnwa means? I don't own a round column so someone would need advise me.


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## Janger (May 22, 2021)

I think you're right Johnwa. As long as you don't move the part and the part zero is a good place to measure off of. You need a DRO or handwheels you can set the position (ie zero positon) for it to be convenient. But even without adjustable position handwheels if you kept track of the Delta X, Y, and Z it could still work. a PITA but possible. I think that would be easier than trying to get the head angle back to exactly where it was. But I don't have a round column mill so others with experience can set us straight. The video Bill shared makes it look pretty easy. Maybe the round column problem is not really much of an issue?


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## Tomc938 (May 22, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> I’m not sure that I agree.  For example if you always re-zero to a corner of your workpiece then any x/y dimension from that corner should be correct.   Even if you rotate the head once you re-zero it should work.   Am I missing something?


I believe you are correct.  With the added step of re-zeroing to the same corner, I believe you would have the same starting reference point - within the accuracy of your edge finding.  I like it!


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## PeterT (May 22, 2021)

But you don't need a DRO for that. You could attach 123 block on table, zero quill with edge finder. Raise head up column, now its rotated somewhere about the post. But you still have to mate edge finder to 123 block assuming the prior DRO setup was to be preserved? The inconvenient part is the head is elevated or different tool in spindle so that it might be more difficult to reach the block. Unless I'm missing your point.


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## YYCHM (May 22, 2021)

This is the sort of thing I have run into. 

Have found the center of something I need to drill with a center finder, I zero my DRO.  Now I go to mount the drill bit only to find that the work piece is too tall to accommodate the drill bit.  The only solution is to raise the head.  So I raise the head to accommodate the drill bit but now my zero might be out and I have to relocate zero with the center finder.   The head is now too high to accommodate milling and have to lower it again and go through the same zeroing process.  PITA.  Doesn't happen often but does occur from time to time.  Getting a stubby set of drill bits has eliminate a lot of that nonsense but not always.


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## Dusty (May 22, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> This is the sort of thing I have run into.
> 
> Have found the center of something I need to drill with a center finder, I zero my DRO.  Now I go to mount the drill bit only to find that the work piece is too tall to accommodate the drill bit.  The only solution is to raise the head.  So I raise the head to accommodate the drill bit but now my zero might be out and I have to relocate zero with the center finder.   The head is now too high to accommodate milling and have to lower it again and go through the same zeroing process.  PITA.  Doesn't happen often but does occur from time to time.  Getting a stubby set of drill bits has eliminate a lot of that nonsense but not always.



Hey Craig, like having a pimple on one's rear and every time you move its a pain!


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## Johnwa (May 22, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> This is the sort of thing I have run into.
> 
> So I raise the head to accommodate the drill bit but now my zero might be out and I have to relocate zer  The head is now too high to accommodate milling and have to lower it again and go through the same zeroing process.  PITA. .



I see where that would be another problem!


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## Dusty (May 22, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> I see where that would be another problem!



Explain further please, I don't catch the other problem?


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## Johnwa (May 22, 2021)

Not an insurmountable problem but you would need a number of different length edge finders.


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## RobinHood (May 22, 2021)

How about attaching a laser pointer to the head and point it a wall some distance away. Hang a plumb bob from the ceiling. Align the laser so it illuminates the thin plumb line. Now you should be able to move the head up and down the column and not lose position over your table. This requires the column to be vertical to start with.


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## YYCHM (May 22, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> How about attaching a laser pointer to the head and point it a wall some distance away. Hang a plumb bob from the ceiling. Align the laser so it illuminates the thin plumb line. Now you should be able to move the head up and down the column and not lose position over your table. This requires the column to be vertical to start with.



Has been discussed already.  The target line would have be quite a distance away in order for that to work.  Reflecting the beam back and forth numerous times to gain distance was also discussed.

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.c...-round-column-mill-drill-head-alignment.2664/


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## thriller007 (Sep 13, 2021)

Since this is a dro thread I was wondering if anyone on here with the dro from China has had to reverse the reading from a pos to a neg. The reason I am asking is that when I do bolt hole circles the orientation of the picture on the screen it is backwards on both the x and y compared to the actual part I am working on? There has to be some setting to reverse this. I am trying to find the book but no success thus far.


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## YYCHM (Sep 13, 2021)

thriller007 said:


> Since this is a dro thread I was wondering if anyone on here with the dro from China has had to reverse the reading from a pos to a neg. The reason I am asking is that when I do bolt hole circles the orientation of the picture on the screen it is backwards on both the x and y compared to the actual part I am working on? There has to be some setting to reverse this. I am trying to find the book but no success thus far.



I have a YH800-3 as well, the setting is in system settings and labeled DIR, but I don't know if that would affect bolt pattern.  Maybe @David_R8 can comment?


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## John Conroy (Sep 13, 2021)

thriller007 said:


> Since this is a dro thread I was wondering if anyone on here with the dro from China has had to reverse the reading from a pos to a neg. The reason I am asking is that when I do bolt hole circles the orientation of the picture on the screen it is backwards on both the x and y compared to the actual part I am working on? There has to be some setting to reverse this. I am trying to find the book but no success thus far.



This video from DRO Pro's may help


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## John Conroy (Sep 13, 2021)

A different procedure is shown in the Precision Matthews dro manual on pages 9 and 10.


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## thriller007 (Sep 13, 2021)

John Conroy said:


> This video from DRO Pro's may help


ok that was the trick. I watched that video and the key was to hold the enter button while turning the power on. This was able to get me into the menu. Even though my dro was way different that was all I needed to get into the setup. thanks very much!!

I did rip everything apart to find the manual with no success. Guess I have to find another to print.


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## YYCHM (Sep 13, 2021)

@thriller007 if you can't find your manual I can scan mine to PDF and email it to you.


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## thriller007 (Sep 13, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> @thriller007 if you can't find your manual I can scan mine to PDF and email it to you.


thanks Craig, I will keep that in mind


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## YYCHM (Sep 13, 2021)

thriller007 said:


> thanks Craig, I will keep that in mind



Actually this is the manual on-line http://www.ikaru-dro.com/pic/other/2019-12-18-01-25-115.pdf


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## thriller007 (Sep 13, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Actually this is the manual on-line http://www.ikaru-dro.com/pic/other/2019-12-18-01-25-115.pdf


Awesome Craig thanks very much!!!


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## YYCHM (Sep 18, 2021)

thriller007 said:


> Since this is a dro thread I was wondering if anyone on here with the dro from China has had to reverse the reading from a pos to a neg. The reason I am asking is that when I do bolt hole circles the orientation of the picture on the screen it is backwards on both the x and y compared to the actual part I am working on? There has to be some setting to reverse this. I am trying to find the book but no success thus far.



Did changing DIR fix your bolt hole circles issue?


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## thriller007 (Sep 18, 2021)

Yes it works perfect now. Thanks for asking.


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## ShawnR (Sep 21, 2021)

I have been considering a DRO for a while. One of my scale lengths would be 403 mm. Their scale lengths go from 400 to 450. Would this very slight overshoot cause problems with the scale or do I need to go up size, to 450 mm?

Maybe I am an idiot but having never used AliExpress before, I am confused. I can add the scale package to the cart but cannot see where it asks for scale size. Does some comment box open up after you place the order? 

This is the one I am looking at but with the wide price range, not sure how to define the order

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32847968410.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.5f9d3c00LsEBl9&mp=1

For those that have used AliExpress before, any input for me? I tried the chat function but not having luck with that either. Geez, you would think I am new to online ordering and that ain't so......


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## YYCHM (Sep 21, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> I have been considering a DRO for a while. One of my scale lengths would be 403 mm. Their scale lengths go from 400 to 450. Would this very slight overshoot cause problems with the scale or do I need to go up size, to 450 mm?
> 
> Maybe I am an idiot but having never used AliExpress before, I am confused. I can add the scale package to the cart but cannot see where it asks for scale size. Does some comment box open up after you place the order?
> 
> ...



You can do better than that.  They want C$ 87.85 for shipping on top of the C$ 294.22.  You should be able to land a complete 3-axis unit for $300 cad.  Keep looking.

When you place the order there will be a text box for leaving a message to the vendor.  That is where you enter your scale lengths.

The scales can be cut down, but for 3mm I'd just go with the 400mm scale.  What do you mean by overshoot?

And yes, AliExpress can be a bit confusing at times.


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## ShawnR (Sep 21, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> You can do better than that.  They want C$ 87.85 for shipping on top of the C$ 294.22.  You should be able to land a complete 3-axis unit for $300 cad.  Keep looking.
> 
> When you place the order there will be a text box for leaving a message to the vendor.  That is where you enter your scale lengths.
> 
> ...



Thanks @YYCHM . I just did not want to have to limit the travel of the table so that I did not crash the end of the scale. Not sure if there is leeway from travel length to actual length but 3 mm is soo small, should not be an issue. 

I will keep looking/watching. Maybe things will get back to normal. No rush. I hardly use the mill


----------



## thriller007 (Sep 21, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> I have been considering a DRO for a while. One of my scale lengths would be 403 mm. Their scale lengths go from 400 to 450. Would this very slight overshoot cause problems with the scale or do I need to go up size, to 450 mm?
> 
> Maybe I am an idiot but having never used AliExpress before, I am confused. I can add the scale package to the cart but cannot see where it asks for scale size. Does some comment box open up after you place the order?
> 
> ...



Remember you can always cut smaller. I made the small mistake of trying to get as short as possible and it worked out but if you have the room I recommend going just a tiny bit larger as there are more mounting options.  
one thing to keep in mind is if you need a 400 then you have to consider this from the link you gave us regarding total length.
"We can offer you other styles, contact with us, please. If you order travel length 200mm, 300mm, 500mm, the total length are 340mm, 440mm, 640mm, hoping you can know it, thanks."


----------



## Tom O (Sep 21, 2021)

Check the DRO Pros website they have videos on sizing the scales for mill and lathe.


----------



## ShawnR (Sep 24, 2021)

Thank you @Tom O & @thriller007 . Will look into it some more.


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## ShawnR (Nov 16, 2021)

Ordered this one tonight. Free shipping to Canada and by the end of November.....   We will see.  I know it is not the new LCD screens but I am ok with that.

My first adventure with AliExpress.









						278.04C$ 21% OFF|Dro 3 Axis Digital Readout Display With 3pcs Linear Scale Travel 50-1020mm For Milling Lathe Machine Digit Counter Complete Unit - Level Measuring Instruments - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com


----------



## DPittman (Nov 16, 2021)

That's cheap and you'll love it.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Nov 17, 2021)

Yeah you get it in a week or so - DHL is a currier similar to UPS. There will be small duty to pay but even without your own broker DHL is easy on the pocket.


----------



## Susquatch (Nov 17, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> Ordered this one tonight. Free shipping to Canada and by the end of November.....   We will see.  I know it is not the new LCD screens but I am ok with that.
> 
> My first adventure with AliExpress.
> 
> ...



Please let us know how this all turns out as well as how the install goes.

I have not had the courage to order a DRO from Ali yet.


----------



## ShawnR (Nov 17, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Please let us know how this all turns out as well as how the install goes.
> 
> I have not had the courage to order a DRO from Ali yet.


I certainly will! My mill is a Sieg X3 so small compared to what the members here have. I have sort of set it up but probably not as well as I should have so while tackling this installation, I will get more into it. 

Yes, I hear you on AliExpress website. Their site is almost elusive when looking for details, but the info is there, if not lost in translation.  I started looking at it last year but would not checkout the cart I had put several things into at different times. I tried corresponding with them with questions but as much as I got answers, it was still not clear. Maybe I was being too needy.  

But members here seem to have all good to say about it so figured I would just hop in. I will let you know how that part goes too. I put my exact travel length into the comments box, as they say and has been mentioned here. That particular company has a comment on their info that says there scales go 20mm beyond the stated value, which works out great for me as my one length is 403 mm so a 400 might (maybe..?) crash but in their scales, that travel is actually 420 mm so the safety factor is built in (unless I need a 417 length....  )

For anyone interested, when I started looking at DRO's, the shipping was really high. This is discussed earlier in this thread. But I looked at the options at the top of the screen and checkbox was there on my results page ( "DRO 3 axis kit" ) for "Free Shipping". Checking that cut my options way down and sure enough, similar prices but all free shipping. I noticed my options for the nice new style LCD screens went down too though, so maybe a way of moving out older stock...? This model had a good number of sales (if that is accurate...geez, can you sense my skepticism? )  Just an FYI

Cheers,


----------



## thriller007 (Nov 17, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> I certainly will! My mill is a Sieg X3 so small compared to what the members here have. I have sort of set it up but probably not as well as I should have so while tackling this installation, I will get more into it.
> 
> Yes, I hear you on AliExpress website. Their site is almost elusive when looking for details, but the info is there, if not lost in translation.  I started looking at it last year but would not checkout the cart I had put several things into at different times. I tried corresponding with them with questions but as much as I got answers, it was still not clear. Maybe I was being too needy.
> 
> ...


After having one you will never go back


----------



## Hacker (Nov 17, 2021)

Nice!! I will be interested to hear how you make out with it. I ordered a unit for my mill from Ditron at the end of last month and received with in a week. All I have done with mine so far is to unbox it and check that it all works. Hopeful I will have time in a couple of weeks to get at it and start the installation process.


----------



## Susquatch (Nov 17, 2021)

I'm still at the distrust stage. 

Got squirreled around by what you all get, what precision, and what technology. 

After the dust cleared, I discovered I wouldn't be getting what I thought they were selling. 

So I have not ordered yet. 

I may end up going with the dro boys in the USA.


----------



## Darren (Nov 20, 2021)

I ordered this for my Emco v13 lathe:





						The Top Rank Of 3 Axis DRO RPM Function Digital Readout Display Kit,3Pcs 1um Precision IP67 Magnetic Scale Encoder, 50mm~1100mm (2inch~43inch) Lathe Milling Drill Bridgeport Grinding Machine : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

The Top Rank Of 3 Axis DRO RPM Function Digital Readout Display Kit,3Pcs 1um Precision IP67 Magnetic Scale Encoder, 50mm~1100mm (2inch~43inch) Lathe Milling Drill Bridgeport Grinding Machine : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca
				




I got it the other day and will be installing it soon. So far i'm pretty impressed with the stuff they sent. The magnetic scales are so much smaller than glass.


----------



## Hacker (Nov 20, 2021)

That is very similar to the one that I bought. Mine has the fourth axis with the RPM.


----------



## Hacker (Nov 21, 2021)

One thing that I have found when I was shopping around on the internet was that companies like Ditron sell on different sites and their prices are also different. When I purchased mine they were selling the four axis package on Amazon and AliExpress. AliExpress was 50 dollars less and free shipping while Amazon they were charging 35 dollars for shipping. I contacted the vendor through Amazon and asked if they would match the AliExpress price and shipping and they did.


----------



## Susquatch (Nov 21, 2021)

This is what I've been looking for but the price seems a bit high. I LOVE your idea of price matching through Amazon! I NEVER would have thought of trying that on my own!


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## Hacker (Nov 21, 2021)

This has worked for me a couple of times with Amazon vendors. I find the shipping with AliExpress can be very slow so prefer using Amazon.
Good luck with your purchase and let us know how it works.


----------



## ShawnR (Dec 11, 2021)

Hacker said:


> This has worked for me a couple of times with Amazon vendors. I find the shipping with AliExpress can be very slow so prefer using Amazon.
> Good luck with your purchase and let us know how it works.



Yep, learning the slow boat from China thing is going on. When I placed the order, it said arrival by the end of November, which I doubted of course. Now it says it has shipped but still in China and no further tracking information is available. An option on tracking says it should arrive by Feb 22...

Oh well,


----------



## DPittman (Dec 11, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> Yep, learning the slow boat from China thing is going on. When I placed the order, it said arrival by the end of November, which I doubted of course. Now it says it has shipped but still in China and no further tracking information is available. An option on tracking says it should arrive by Feb 22...
> 
> Oh well,


That sounds like Aliexpress to me.  They take your payment and almost immediately tell you your order has been shipped and then a month later it appears it is actually getting out the door. Then you wait some more.  However despite all the frustrations (misleading or false advertising and shipping claims) I have been "mostly" pleased with my products in the end when I take into account the purchase price.  My DRO was my best purchase and I think you will liley be happy with yours also.


----------



## ShawnR (Dec 11, 2021)

Well, that is actually good news for me. Thanks for letting me know. 

If it is the norm, then I can accept it. I have come up with a few mill projects but now waiting anxiously, like a kid at Christmas when he knows what he is getting.


----------



## LenVW (Dec 11, 2021)

I saw that BusyBee has some DROs on sale if you are near Mississauga.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Dec 11, 2021)

Most DRO from China ships via DHL or similar. Arrives within Canada in about a week.


----------



## YYCHM (Dec 11, 2021)

My current AliExpress order.....






They claim delivered by Dec 27.  What the H is object routed supposed to mean?


----------



## Susquatch (Dec 11, 2021)

I think that refers to the method they use to ship. Basically, they stick it into this multiweb of shipping systems. It goes into a big cesspool of shippers, they hand off to each other and juggle it with other shipments, cost complicate the carrier, but somehow after going around the whole world three times, it gets to you. You hope......


----------



## Doggggboy (Dec 11, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I think that refers to the method they use to ship. Basically, they stick it into this multiweb of shipping systems. It goes into a big cesspool of shippers, they hand off to each other and juggle it with other shipments, cost complicate the carrier, but somehow after going around the whole world three times, it gets to you. You hope......


And if you are expecting something from Amazon right now. there might be a delay due to the tornados in Kentucky. Terrible stuff. I am waiting for an Ebay shipment coming through a hub in Erlanger, Kentucky and won't be surprised if it is delayed or gone altogether. Don't really care about the thing, just hope people are ok.


----------



## Canadium (Dec 12, 2021)

DPittman said:


> That sounds like Aliexpress to me.  They take your payment and almost immediately tell you your order has been shipped and then a month later it appears it is actually getting out the door. Then you wait some more.  However despite all the frustrations (misleading or false advertising and shipping claims) I have been "mostly" pleased with my products in the end when I take into account the purchase price.  My DRO was my best purchase and I think you will liley be happy with yours also.


I thought they all did this! This past year after placing one order with Amazon with great fanfare they announced my order was shipped. The next day they sent me a message saying they wouldn't be able to fulfill the order because it was out of stock and they refunded my money! I said what!? Wait a minute!

They had just confirmed what I had always suspected. The item has shipped notice means squat! Its just to make themselves look good!


----------



## Susquatch (Dec 12, 2021)

Canadium said:


> I thought they all did this! This past year after placing one order with Amazon with great fanfare they announced my order was shipped. The next day they sent me a message saying they wouldn't be able to fulfill the order because it was out of stock and they refunded my money! I said what!? Wait a minute!
> 
> They had just confirmed what I had always suspected. The item has shipped notice means squat! Its just to make themselves look good!



Ya. It's a big bag of slimy worms. 

My wife and I do a lot of Amazon shopping. We live in the sticks so driving to town whenever we need something is basically very expensive shipping. 

We almost always choose only prime items because they "usually" ship directly from Amazon. You can always check because the listing will say if it doesn't. We have never been disappointed with that other than during the peak of the pandemic when everything was compromised. 

For non amazon direct stuff, amazon is just a middle man. They get a notification from the real seller/shipper and send that on to you. It may or may not be correct. What I hate most about these non amazon direct sales is that sometimes they promise 2 day shipping only to send you a notice that it is coming from China. I almost always cancel.


----------



## Darren (Dec 12, 2021)

As far as shipping goes, Intelcom has to be the worst. They hire contractors, ala Skip The Dishes, Uber and these contractors only deliver when they feel like it. My last package was in town for 2 weeks before it got delivered last night. Tracking showed at least 6 delivery attempts.  Guy has bald tires, delivering to a rural area, and keeps getting stuck. My neighbor saw him on the road last night at 9pm and thats how i got the package.

KBC tools just hit me with a $245.00 shipping charge on my surface plate...said they couldn't find a cheaper option.


----------



## YotaBota (Dec 12, 2021)

dfloen said:


> KBC tools just hit me with a $245.00 shipping charge on my surface plate


Ouch, that must be a big plate.
I've been looking at this one but haven't pulled the pin yet.


			Amazon.ca


----------



## Darren (Dec 12, 2021)

I need a bigger plate so I got the 18x24 , so quite heavy yes.


----------



## David_R8 (Dec 12, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> Ouch, that must be a big plate.
> I've been looking at this one but haven't pulled the pin yet.
> 
> 
> Amazon.ca


I have that plate Mike and it's really quite excellent for my needs.
@dfloen Before I bought the HHIP plate I had ordered one from KBC because it was on a crazy sale. They actually called me and said shipping was going to be something like $300+ if I recall correctly. This despite the fact that I can get 50 lbs delivered from KBC for $10...
Did appreciate the heads up though....


----------



## Susquatch (Dec 12, 2021)

I got mine at Busy Bee at least a decade ago. I have been quite happy with it.

A 24x18x3 is still $90.


----------



## Darren (Dec 12, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I got mine at Busy Bee at least a decade ago. I have been quite happy with it.
> 
> A 24x18x3 is still $90.


I couldn't find one on their site in 24x18x3, i see 12x18.

Shipping is crazy these days but I was shocked at 245.


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 14, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Ordered this one tonight. Free shipping to Canada and by the end of November.....   We will see.  I know it is not the new LCD screens but I am ok with that.
> 
> My first adventure with AliExpress.
> 
> ...



Well, this seems to have gone south. I have been trying to track the shipment with little success. Whenever I emailed the company, asking for tracking information that worked, I received an automated response that asked me to select a scale size, ie, no one reads the emails. Shipping info only said within 13 days, and has been that since I ordered it. So last night I started a "Dispute" and today the company sent me a message saying "Sorry dear, the order was lost".... and would I like them to ship it again....

I said no, just refund and I will try again with another supplier. First AliExpress experience = not so hot.


----------



## David_R8 (Jan 14, 2022)

Well that sucks.
This is the store I ordered from. Zero complaints.




__





						Drogiitao Official Store - Amazing prodcuts with exclusive discounts on AliExpress
					

Discover the wide range of  from AliExpress Top Seller Drogiitao Official Store.Enjoy ✓Free Shipping Worldwide! ✓Limited Time Sale ✓Easy Return.




					drogiitao.aliexpress.com


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Well, this seems to have gone south. I have been trying to track the shipment with little success. Whenever I emailed the company, asking for tracking information that worked, I received an automated response that asked me to select a scale size, ie, no one reads the emails. Shipping info only said within 13 days, and has been that since I ordered it. So last night I started a "Dispute" and today the company sent me a message saying "Sorry dear, the order was lost".... and would I like them to ship it again....
> 
> I said no, just refund and I will try again with another supplier. First AliExpress experience = not so hot.



Its a marketplace. You should have picked free DHL / Fedex tracking and would have just checked where it is. Don't worry they refund you $ so you are just out 2 weeks. 

So far the only one that is magnet for issues is my mom - she seems to have issue with every other sale. Me, almost no issues. 

Also if you have issues with recent Chinese made electric item check thermal fuse - these guys have some kind of a batch of 1 billion bad thermal fuses / thermal elements. They are like 10 cents each but whole device breaks down.


----------



## DPittman (Jan 14, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Well, this seems to have gone south. I have been trying to track the shipment with little success. Whenever I emailed the company, asking for tracking information that worked, I received an automated response that asked me to select a scale size, ie, no one reads the emails. Shipping info only said within 13 days, and has been that since I ordered it. So last night I started a "Dispute" and today the company sent me a message saying "Sorry dear, the order was lost".... and would I like them to ship it again....
> 
> I said no, just refund and I will try again with another supplier. First AliExpress experience = not so hot.


That was exactly like my first experience.  They said the order got lost and then said they reshipped the item and then after it didn't show up again they said it was because my location was remote and they could not ship to me.  I canceled and reordered the exact same thing from another Aliexpress supllier and received it in reasonable time and am completely pleased with the product.


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> Its a marketplace. *You should have picked free DHL / Fedex tracking and would have just checked where it is.* Don't worry they refund you $ so you are just out 2 weeks.



I did this, several times. "Just checking" where it is, from the order page, said China and DHL could not process the number they sent me.  After placing my order, they  supplied me with a DHL number and link, which did not work. It returned "Invalid number". I asked several times for correct tracking info and either got no response or the same message asking me to ensure I order the correct length of scale, weeks after they said it was shipped. 

On a good note, I already have the refund (less $4, probably due to exchange rates). I will try again, perhaps with  @David_R8 's supplier or Amazon or somewhere else. This company had good reviews so I felt good about them but, oh well, first world problems.  2 months ago, I did not even know I needed one! 

Cheers,


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

Well, trying again. Will report back.  Should know January 27.....lol...


----------



## Hacker (Jan 15, 2022)

Sorry to hear about your experience, hopefully this one will work out. At least with AliExpress the refund process seems to work well. I have had similar experience with items coming from China. The shipping seems to very hit and miss. My DRO was here within two weeks but contactors took two months. Even items coming from the US are taking a long time. I am waiting on a DC controller that I bought off of EBay the second week in Dec.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jan 15, 2022)

Just try with a different vendor, this one was shady. I almost never use Amazon now as they cannot compete with aliexpress for 90% of the items. Why pay 12% or more markup when you don't have to.


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

Thanks @Hacker .  And yes @Tom Kitta I have ordered already from a different vendor. So far, the communication already looks much better. 

Regards, 

Shawn


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

Getting ready to go through the same process - this thread saved me from asking a bunch of questions.

*Questions...
General* - magnetic scales > glass scales... correct?

*Lathe DRO* - I have a Craftex CX709"x" - obviously I want a DRO that has x and y axis, likely also want one w/ the hall effect sensor (RPM) - is there any advantage to having a scale on the tool slide? When I was researching websites trying to figure out *how* to figure out what I wanted, I thought I came across a diagram explaining that you could stack the tool slide dimensions on top of the x or y dimension kind of like a sum equation in excel. True? Am I misunderstanding?

*Mill DRO* - I have a Craftex CX611(similar to @ShawnR's Seig X3 IIRC) - again, obviously I'd want at minimum a three axis DRO (x,y,z) - the quill moves separate from the z-axis; any drawback to buying a package w/ the additional scale (I believe the quill distance can be programmed to stack like the description above)?
I'm very interested in retrofitting this machine to CNC - anyone w/ any experience have lessons that they learned the hard way?  Anything that I should avoid? 
*Mitigating factor: *As previously mentioned, near-zero machine experience... when I got the milling machine, the first comment from the one machinist (tool and die maker) friend I have was about retrofitting to CNC (he had owned his own shop w/ 3 or 4 large CNC machines, felt they were more/less the size of an automotive bay each). The appeal of being able to "walk-away" from the machine and let it go through g-code partially unattended is VERY appealing... I enjoy designing parts from ideas and testing the parts (challenging my designs), but if I could afford to out source the work I would.
*Research results: *I've scoped out some places that I could get retrofit kits from ($700-1000 USD for ball screw based kits + electric components) and I've also came across a supplier that has my machine set up as a turn-key CNC unit for $5250 USD. I have a 1600 sq ft shop, so although I would need to create room for an additional machine I think it would be worth it. From an operations management perspective, I could easily "employ" the CNC machine for one or two months a year - if I were to pay someone a wage (minimum) to make those parts, the value would be $2500 CAD/$2000 USD... meaning the machine (sans tooling) would "pay for itself" in two years.
I bring the financial aspect forward because it's a default factor for most people - I'm not "special" or "wealthy" by any means... I wanted to race cars when I grew up and Dad (having been a racer) taught me to never count on a car coming home with you if it was unloaded off the trailer (that something could happen and the $$$ invested be a pile of junk w/in a blink of an eye) - with that being instilled from a child, I started purchasing houses at 22, worked a minimum of 3 jobs at any one time until I was 35 and don't have any debts (not paying anyone interest).  I also haven't raced enough to wreck as many cars as I had planned... ... ... 

$5250 USD (which by the time you get it home is really ~$8500 CAD landed) is a pretty decent chunk of change... my mill adventure started at replacing $1000 bench-top drill.

($5250 USD CNC milling machine source: https://heavymetalcnc.com/product/g0463-x3/)


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> *General* - magnetic scales > glass scales... correct?



Yes. Magnetic is newer and better technology than glass. But glass will still work just fine and be just as accurate.


ThirtyOneDriver said:


> is there any advantage to having a scale on the tool slide? When I was researching websites trying to figure out *how* to figure out what I wanted, I thought I came across a diagram explaining that you could stack the tool slide dimensions on top of the x or y dimension kind of like a sum equation in excel. True? Am I misunderstanding?



Yes, that can work that way. I assume you mean compound when you say tool slide.  But you have to get a DRO control box that has that feature. And even then it will only work at one angle at a time and will have to programmed to accommodate another angle. It can be quite the challenge to find one that does. You may need to learn to speak Chinese.



ThirtyOneDriver said:


> I believe the quill distance can be programmed to stack like the description above)?



Yes, same answer as above. And actually easier because there is no need to add an angle.



ThirtyOneDriver said:


> when I got the milling machine, the first comment from the one machinist (tool and die maker) friend I have was about retrofitting to CNC



He might be right. But I think that putting together a business case to actually do that is a LOT MORE complicated than setting up a cnc machine. Furthermore, it's probably easier (and cheaper) to learn to machine on a regular machine and then maybe play with cnc, and then buying a really good cnc machine to make money with. A hobby machine will probably be all worn out by the time you recoup the investment.

I'm not poo-pooing the idea, I'm just saying that I think it's a lot more involved than converting a hobby machine to cnc. Even hiring an employee is a huge issue - prolly even more than converting the machine.

But then again I'm old and don't have the energy or ambition that a young man might have.......  Just saying it's a LOT more involved than asking the question here on a hobby forum.


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

@Susquatch - not saying I would hire an employee, just referring to it to establish a value - I know earlier today I said that my time is virtually free, BUT if I could do two things concurrently I feel that it would have value.  Retirement w/ injury sometimes means that doing one thing is pretty good...

It's hard to articulate and maybe I went about it in the wrong way, what's attractive about the CNC machine is not having to stand in front of it; if it pays for itself through increased income isn't as much of a factor as having to pay someone else to fab parts... when I have ideas for the racing cars that I think may/may not work, I went to be super confidential w/ it... not because I want to profit off the IP monetarily, I want to profit by having something other people/cars don't and hopefully that is an investment into being faster/more consistent.
(summary, expensive to pay for someone else's labour plus I want to keep shit a secret)

Of course, I don't need to sell anyone here on whether or not I get one but because I lack experience/knowledge I'm open to advice... explaining how I perceive things/my goals, etc. is a form of trying to get "tailor fit" advice instead of "off the rack".

I need a mentor   lol   and probably to steer this conversation back to Milling Machine DRO.


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

Okay - you're input on compound and quill helps me narrow down some of the options.  Magnetic vs. glass helps as well.

I've been looking on Ali for knock-off/Chinese Dorions for the most part.  I have ~ 60 tabs open on one browser but your advice will help me whittle away and close a bunch.  Shipping information discussed here will help close some more.

Thanks

@ShawnR - what size slides did you end up ordering?  Is your Seig a 6"x21" table?


----------



## LenVW (Jan 15, 2022)

John,
If it is your intent to start a CNC machine shop you can get a quote from vendors that are active in the machining market.
Haas and Mazak are popular names in CNC workcenters.
I would contact them to get a feel for the investment involved.

You should also research the completion currently around Cambridge.
(ie. Havlick, Wessex, Edgar Tool . . . etc)

Do some homework to see what you are up against. The shops listed have decades of experience in CNC production and already have experienced programming machinists.
I did some job estimating for a CNC shop a couple years ago.


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

I can't help you out too much. Not sure if you are asking for CNC advice or the DRO advice? I have gathered that the magnetic scales are better than the glass ones. I did not feel, that for my shop and abilities, it was worth it. 
My mill, the Sieg X3 has been converted to CNC  and documented online more than once. Some members here have converted their machines too so perhaps some will chime in if you are looking for CNC assistance. 

I don't have enough experience to comment on the quill scale addition but I guess that milling is not usually done with the mill extended so it almost becomes a separate function. Nice to have for drilling and I am sure that a 4 scale DRO would do the trick. But again, not enough experience to give a good answer on that.  I doubt that you would put a stepper motor on the quill for CNC but when you are the builder, you can do whatever your application dictates. 

For me, as much as CNC sounds and looks cool, since I am so new to this world of machining, I figured I should learn how to machine first before learning the CAD/CAM software necessary to program a computer to do what, at this point, I don't know how to. I don't think I have enough years left to learn everything I want to so decided to make chips manually. I am working on my FreeCAD skills to go 2 dimensions with a Plasma Cutter someday.

As for the lathe DRO, looks GUCCI. I have thought about it. Since the compound adjusts for the angle, I don't know how that works but I am sure it does. I think most just put two scales on a lathe. When I sold my last lathe, the Craftex B2227L, iirc, the fella bought it to CNC it. He had a group of talented old retirees that messed around with that stuff in their shops. Talented group. I do now know how he made out with it but that would be kind of fun too. Not enough hours in a day and I am now retired. Still not enough time. 

Sorry if I did not help. Good luck! Sounds like you have some priorities to set and decisions to make. 

Cheers, 
Shawn


----------



## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

Well, apparently by the time I finished typing this (and making dinner), you have received some great input. I feel that many people talk about CNC as the greatest thing but no one talks about the learning curve in learning CAD first (or I guess you could go GCode. ) I have started several times to learn CAD but usually ended up with a pad and pencil. f I wanted to get the job done.  You can buy a CNC machine, and then only worry about learning to draw in CAD or try both. I found it difficult but necessity drives accomplishments and I never needed that end of it (although I am secretly jealous of those that can whip up a nice drawing in CAD, I will admit   )

Or disregard if you already know one of the CAD/CAM packages. ...


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I can't help you out too much. Not sure if you are asking for CNC advice or the DRO advice? I have gathered that the magnetic scales are better than the glass ones. I did not feel, that for my shop and abilities, it was worth it.
> My mill, the Sieg X3 has been converted to CNC  and documented online more than once. Some members here have converted their machines too so perhaps some will chime in if you are looking for CNC assistance.
> 
> I don't have enough experience to comment on the quill scale addition but I guess that milling is not usually done with the mill extended so it almost becomes a separate function. Nice to have for drilling and I am sure that a 4 scale DRO would do the trick. But again, not enough experience to give a good answer on that.  I doubt that you would put a stepper motor on the quill for CNC but when you are the builder, you can do whatever your application dictates.
> ...


I was asking you specifically about the DRO you ordered for your mill - I believe my machine to be a clone of yours (if yours has a 6"x21" table).  The post earlier stated that you reordered your DRO yesterday - I was hoping that you remembered the size of scales you ordered so I could take those measurements as a reference so that I knew I wasn't out to lunch when I measure mine (I've actively been preparing to purchase for more than a week).


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## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> @ShawnR - what size slides did you end up ordering?  Is your Seig a 6"x21" table?



I ordered a 150 mm and 2-  400 mm scales. My X is 16 " and my Z is 15" and the 400 mm scales were the closest. If you table travels 21" then more than mine


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Well, apparently by the time I finished typing this (and making dinner), you have received some great input. I feel that many people talk about CNC as the greatest thing but no one talks about the learning curve in learning CAD first (or I guess you could go GCode. ) I have started several times to learn CAD but usually ended up with a pad and pencil. f I wanted to get the job done.  You can buy a CNC machine, and then only worry about learning to draw in CAD or try both. I found it difficult but necessity drives accomplishments and I never needed that end of it (although I am secretly jealous of those that can whip up a nice drawing in CAD, I will admit   )
> 
> Or disregard if you already know one of the CAD/CAM packages. ...


Yeah - I'm getting along w/ SolidWorks pretty well... I'm young  (turning 40 soon) so computer programming similar to g-code is something we did in school... I went back to college a couple of years ago and finished a programming course w/o losing any marks over the semester.

Sorry..  lol


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## ShawnR (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> Yeah - I'm getting along w/ SolidWorks pretty well... I'm young  (turning 40 soon) so computer programming similar to g-code is something we did in school... I went back to college a couple of years ago and finished a programming course w/o losing any marks over the semester.
> 
> Sorry..  lol


I took computer programming in high school. We used punch cards......


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## YYCHM (Jan 15, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I took computer programming in high school. We used punch cards......



I used punch cards in University....  They still had one of the few super computers in the basement of the computer science building.


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## Tomc938 (Jan 15, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I used punch cards in University....


589& rocks!

And I used them in high school.   High tech Comodore Super PETs in University.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

In my opinion a very wise man said:


ShawnR said:


> For me, as much as CNC sounds and looks cool, since I am so new to this world of machining, I figured I should learn how to machine first before learning the CAD/CAM software necessary to program a computer to do what, at this point, I don't know how to.


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## Hacker (Jan 16, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I took computer programming in high school. We used punch cards......


LOL I can relate to that.


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## LenVW (Jan 16, 2022)

A couple years ago, I did some job planning for a machine shop that did a lot of CNC on large bed mills and workcenters. I soon discovered that I knew about manual knee milling, 
but, very little about CNC programming.
Most of my design work was also on 2D AutoCAD and board drawings. Solid modelling & CNC is interesting but the more I worked with P. Engs and Consultants, many times I discovered that they had never squared up a piece of stock or machine tapped a #10-32 hole. Practical skills will help you through times that you are facing the unknown.

You have to be able to pass on your knowledge so that you can investigate and learn about the next project.


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## Susquatch (Jan 16, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> I was hoping that you remembered the size of scales you ordered so I could take those measurements as a reference so that I knew I wasn't out to lunch when I measure mine (I've actively been preparing to purchase for m



If you get magnetic (which costs more) you can just buy bigger and cut to fit. Easy peasy. Some here have cut glass to fit too but I think most prefer to have the seller provide the right size.

I found that the "DRO Boys" are helpful but pricey. 

I have not ordered a DRO kit for my mill yet. Still learning and not wanting to make a mistake. The lathe will get done after the mill is working and maybe after the motor gets swapped out to a 3PH with VFD too.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

'Hanging' around here I'm catching on that a manual mill is a requirement for the type of stuff I want to do/size of my shop/my shop capabilities, etc.

A second, small CNC machine will still be something I consider but further in the future and only as a companion to a manual mill... I enjoy being able to be 'hands off' with things and let automation do the monotonous... concurrent activity... while keeping an ear/eye out for things that don't seem "right".  Again, I'm trying to look past what I want this week and what I may want next year, the year after... what I'd ideally like in 10 years.  I started planning this shop 24 years ago and got to start building it only the last 3 years... the time between was gaining knowledge, experience, tools, etc. with this end goal in mind.  I'll post more shop stuff to my intro thread at some point.

The DRO Pros had a bit of a write up on the differences between magnetic slides and glass - I did notice that the magnetic slides are the only ones that they warranty for life(? or whatever the longest term it is they have).  Veteran owned business as well... if I order from overseas I get the same thing (mill setup) and then whatever I get for the lathe is essentially free(ish).


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## LenVW (Jan 16, 2022)

I know a former BlackBerry programming guru that is experimenting with solid modelling and SPATIAL sensors for the inspection of machined parts and assemblies. 

The sensors would use wireless technology to measure and report real-time dimensions to develop 3D models from the original parts and then the models could be modified and improved with better materials and features.

I will have to check on his progress.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

You should have seen the face I made when I read that @LenVW - it was very similar to a racoon seeing something shiny.


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## LenVW (Jan 16, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> 'Hanging' around here I'm catching on that a manual mill is a requirement for the type of stuff I want to do/size of my shop/my shop capabilities, etc.
> 
> A second, small CNC machine will still be something I consider but further in the future and only as a companion to a manual mill... I enjoy being able to be 'hands off' with things and let automation do the monotonous... concurrent activity... while keeping an ear/eye out for things that don't seem "right".  Again, I'm trying to look past what I want this week and what I may want next year, the year after... what I'd ideally like in 10 years.  I started planning this shop 24 years ago and got to start building it only the last 3 years... the time between was gaining knowledge, experience, tools, etc. with this end goal in mind.  I'll post more shop stuff to my intro thread at some point.
> 
> The DRO Pros had a bit of a write up on the differences between magnetic slides and glass - I did notice that the magnetic slides are the only ones that they warranty for life(? or whatever the longest term it is they have).  Veteran owned business as well... if I order from overseas I get the same thing (mill setup) and then whatever I get for the lathe is essentially free(ish).


Lots of considerations go into planning. Justify your purchases with scheduled utilization and maybe some payback.
I consider that I am old when I am no longer learning !!


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## LenVW (Jan 16, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> You should have seen the face I made when I read that @LenVW - it was very similar to a racoon seeing something shiny.


The system he is developing uses an inspection table that has multiple scanners that register the actual dimensions of components very extreme accuracy. With the scanned data points collected and a virtual 3D model developed in a data file, it can be compared to the original design to see where it does not match.
It will be another inspection tool that can produce 3D models for CNC work.
Simple when the application is explained. LOL


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## Susquatch (Jan 16, 2022)

LenVW said:


> The system he is developing uses an inspection table that has multiple scanners that register the actual dimensions of components very extreme accuracy. With the scanned data points collected and a virtual 3D model developed in a data file, it can be compared to the original design to see where it does not match.
> It will be another inspection tool that can produce 3D models for CNC work.
> Simple when the application is explained. LOL



That technology has existed in many industries for quite a few years now. I had the extreme DISPLEASURE of being the first Guinea pig when they rolled that out in the dental industry to make crowns and implants. They use a high precision optical scanner to measure a portion (or all) of my teeth and gums, then convert that into a 3D model of my mouth and teeth, filled in the model mesh as needed with additional photos, then uploaded the model to a modeller who made a crown to fit perfectly within a micron. When I came back in, all they did was to glue it in and say goodbye. As amazing as that might sound, the auto and aerospace industry were doing that for years before it was approved for medical/dental use. It was especially useful for forensic analysis of competitive parts. We regularly bought a competitors vehicle, tore it apart, created 3D models using high precision data measurement systems and then tested the models using supercomputers to assess the design, it's performance, and cost and quality opportunities. You could test a part in the computer in a day for what was the equivalent of a lifetime of testing on the road. The challenge then and now was to create models and tests in the computer that reliably replicated what happened in the real world. To improve that fidelity, rapid destructive testing was done on real parts and the data was used to both improve the models and the test modelling. Not only that, but these parts models were also tested as entire assemblies and vehicles and the manufacturing processes and assembly plant systems were also developed simultaneously. 

My point is not to poo poo your BBry friend Len. It is only to say that I think he is up to much much more that he is telling you because what he is telling you is at least 15 years old - but nonetheless still more or less unknown by the general public..... 

In my mind, the greatest technology advancement in the auto industry of the last 30 years was not the little things that journalists write about, it was the digital design, modelling, and simulation of 3d models both dimensionally and physically (temp, stress/strain, impact, noise, economics, manufacturing, durability, and performance). I retired 15 years ago. I can only imagine what they are all doing now.......


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## LenVW (Jan 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That technology has existed in many industries for quite a few years now. I had the extreme DISPLEASURE of being the first Guinea pig when they rolled that out in the dental industry to make crowns and implants. They use a high precision optical scanner to measure a portion (or all) of my teeth and gums, then convert that into a 3D model of my mouth and teeth, filled in the model mesh as needed with additional photos, then uploaded the model to a modeller who made a crown to fit perfectly within a micron. When I came back in, all they did was to glue it in and say goodbye. As amazing as that might sound, the auto and aerospace industry were doing that for years before it was approved for medical/dental use. It was especially useful for forensic analysis of competitive parts. We regularly bought a competitors vehicle, tore it apart, created 3D models using high precision data measurement systems and then tested the models using supercomputers to assess the design, it's performance, and cost and quality opportunities. You could test a part in the computer in a day for what was the equivalent of a lifetime of testing on the road. The challenge then and now was to create models and tests in the computer that reliably replicated what happened in the real world. To improve that fidelity, rapid destructive testing was done on real parts and the data was used to both improve the models and the test modelling. Not only that, but these parts models were also tested as entire assemblies and vehicles and the manufacturing processes and assembly plant systems were also developed simultaneously.
> 
> My point is not to poo poo your BBry friend Len. It is only to say that I think he is up to much much more that he is telling you because what he is telling you is at least 15 years old - but nonetheless still more or less unknown by the general public.....
> 
> In my mind, the greatest technology advancement in the auto industry of the last 30 years was not the little things that journalists write about, it was the digital design, modelling, and simulation of 3d models both dimensionally and physically (temp, stress/strain, impact, noise, economics, manufacturing, durability, and performance). I retired 15 years ago. I can only imagine what they are all doing now.......


I agree with you.
My friend from BBry is developing a totally proprietary system for APQP.
NDAs are the norm with this type of work involving in-house resources and outside contractors.
When I was a contact with Gowlings we were securing NDAs on a weekly basis with suppliers and design firms.

After my machining days, I returned to college and one offer for my first co-op position was with Decoma International in North York, I went in another direction and industry.
Kellogg’s Engineering on Dundas Street in London offered me a better position working on their Project 2000 development. I spent three co-op terms as well as a year after graduation working on food processing equipment that were the standard for all of Kellogg’s North American plants. 

The automotive industry is a tough one. 
I was working with an automation firm five years ago that supplied systems to Tier 2 companies and they drove my boss out of business because they refused to pay based on every technicality their lawyers could find in contract clauses.

I liked the food, fabricating and processing industries much easier to work in.


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## Degen (Jan 17, 2022)

As to DRO on the mill I use flood cooling when I'm pushing my cuts and most of the cheaper stuff doesn't like moisture (lots of it) so I've done without.  Now that I'm adding CNC (for a little more than a good water proof DRO) and the servos have encoders well.......DRO's are built in and way easier to install.


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## ShawnR (Jan 19, 2022)

My DRO shipped already! Woo Woo! 

I wonder if the other company or the shipper really did lose it, or just never shipped it....


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## Darren (Jan 19, 2022)

Awesome news. Now would be a good time to order the taps/drills/hardware needed if you don't have them already. My last to DRO installs were all m4, m5.


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## ShawnR (Jan 19, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Awesome news. Now would be a good time to order the taps/drills/hardware needed if you don't have them already. My last to DRO installs were all m4, m5.



I do have some taps but don't know what hardware I will need. I am sure it comes with a good well written instruction manual.....

Thanks. I might be chatting with you more or getting over to see your installs before then. Tanks are full and shop is warm?


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## Susquatch (Jan 19, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I do have some taps but don't know what hardware I will need. I am sure it comes with a good well written instruction manual.....
> 
> Thanks. I might be chatting with you more or getting over to see your installs before then. Tanks are full and shop is warm?



Damn...... You guys are too far away or if be there too!


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## Darren (Jan 19, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I do have some taps but don't know what hardware I will need. I am sure it comes with a good well written instruction manual.....
> 
> Thanks. I might be chatting with you more or getting over to see your installs before then. Tanks are full and shop is warm?



Yes sir.  Come by anytime


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## ShawnR (Jan 19, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Yes sir.  Come by anytime



Busch, right?


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## ShawnR (Jan 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Damn...... You guys are too far away or if be there too!


I will take lots of photos, and ask lots of questions. It will be just like you are here!


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## Darren (Jan 19, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Busch, right?



I like any beer as long as it's cold and wet....and plentiful.


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## Susquatch (Jan 19, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I will take lots of photos, and ask lots of questions. It will be just like you are here!



Be still my heart..... 

I am sooooo jealous.....


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## YYCHM (Jan 19, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> My DRO shipped already! Woo Woo!
> 
> I wonder if the other company or the shipper really did lose it, or just never shipped it....



How is this one being shipped?  DHL?


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## ShawnR (Jan 19, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> How is this one being shipped?  DHL?


Yes, DHL


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## ShawnR (Jan 25, 2022)

Well,  my faith in AliExpress has improved! Just when I was wondering what to do next.....

Ordered Jan 15 and just arrived! Pretty good I would say. Once it warms up, I will power it up and see if it all works. Looks good so far!


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 26, 2022)

If anyone needs some scales I got some cheap and can sell you 3 for 80CAD. They are 650mm measuring length - you can shorten them but cannot make them longer. Standard resolution 5 micron. Chinese standard, works with any Chinese DRO.


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## Hacker (Jan 26, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I like any beer as long as it's cold and wet....and plentiful.


Free always taste the best!


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## LenVW (Jan 27, 2022)

Shawn,
I am interested to know if your Offshore DRO came together easily.
Do you have a background with precision metrology ?


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## Susquatch (Jan 27, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Free always taste the best!



Don't agree. Free with a friend to share with is better.


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## ShawnR (Jan 27, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Shawn,
> I am interested to know if your Offshore DRO came together easily.
> Do you have a background with precision metrology ?


I just got it and need to clear a few things off of the plate before I tackle the install so it has not come together yet. I did power it all up and slid the scales and it all looks great! 

I told myself to quit starting projects without finishing some,...but that is not going so well..... but I am trying. Butterflies are my nemesis! (Hey, that should be my new tagline.... )

Sorry, not sure what you are asking? Low EMI in the environment in which I work? or do I do precision work? Those answers would be yes and no, respectively.


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## Hacker (Jan 27, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Don't agree. Free with a friend to share with is better.


Absolutely


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## LenVW (Jan 27, 2022)

I am used to gauge blocks, dial indicators, optical comparators  and height gauges for laying out work pieces (Ten-thousandths of an inch accuracy and similar precision machining).

The Chinese DRO probably registers to that accuracy, but, do you have the equipment to quantify the digital readout that is displayed ?

Measure a piece with a vernier or mic that you know is accurate and compare it to the DRO by taking a reading of a dimension that uses 80% or more of the axis total scale length.
This will give you a comparable measurement.
Let me know if your mic reading is the same as the DRO scales.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 27, 2022)

LenVW said:


> I am used to gauge blocks, dial indicators, optical comparators  and height gauges for laying out work pieces (Ten-thousandths of an inch accuracy and similar precision machining).
> 
> The Chinese DRO probably registers to that accuracy, but, do you have the equipment to quantify the digital readout that is displayed ?
> 
> ...



Yeah I did that with mine. they are bang on. excellent. I did the X scale to high precision. You should do the test anyways, just to make sure your install is good. Chinese scales are very, very good. 

Setup is with something you know, say with gage block & test indicator or similar. repeatability with any flat surface and test indicator. Scales that are set with measuring interval of a 2 tenths (5 micron - standard) are good enough for any B-port style machine.


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