# ABS Pipe Annular Cutter



## Susquatch (Nov 3, 2022)

Our Kitchen sink sprung a leak where the 1-1/2" drain pipe joins into the 4" sewer pipe. Basically, the 45 degree fitting that connects the two pipes broke in half. No idea why but it's the third Y pipe in the house to fail that way. If I had to guess I'd say a bad batch of Y-Pipes.

The other two were easy fixes. I just replaced the whole assembly. This one was not so easy. It broke above the ventilation ducts between joists. The only way to replace the assembly would be to drop the ventilation ducts. I didn't want to do that unless I had to.

So I cut the sink drain pipe out with a 12v reciprocating saw, and then had to remove the rest of the 45.  I had thought that would be easy - just crack the glue apart. But as @Dabbler pointed out in a later conversation, the glue isn't really a glue. It fuses the two pipes together. Crap.

I took a step back and decided to cut the top layer off with a hole saw. Didn't work worth crap. Scratch that idea. I'd have used a smaller hole saw as a pilot inside the bigger hole saw but didn't have the right size.

The next thought was to make an annular cutter with a pilot to fit the inside pipe.

The idea was to use the pilot to follow the inside pipe and the cutter to remove the outside pipe by rotating it around the pipe.

The first iteration had a hose clamp holding the cutter to the pilot. Didn't hold. Should have known better.

The second was held in place by 8mm machine screws. That worked. Many guys on here would have welded the parts together. I prefer bolts cuz I can't weld worth crap.

I was in a bit of a hurry so I planned to just turn the unit by hand. If that didn't work I would have machined it to take a 1" socket. Actually it turned out that a pair of Knipex Cobras were needed once in a while but it did the job just fine. With the old 45 gone, I glued a new one in place and added a short extension so I could put a new coupler between rafters.









The scroll lines on the tool are the remnants of the threads on the 1.75" bolt I used to make the tool from. The cutter itself is just left over scrap metal from the motor adapter I made for my mill.

This is a very typical project for me. I regularly make custom tools to repair farm machinery or stuff around the yard and house.

Hopefully sharing the idea might come in handy for others some day.


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## DPittman (Nov 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Basically, the 45 degree fitting that connects the two pipes broke in half. No idea why but it's the third Y pipe in the house to fail that way. If I had to guess I'd say a bad batch of Y-Pipes.


Wow I got to think that is very strange.  There should be practically no force on them once installed unless you've got some major house/plumbing shifting going on?


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## Tecnico (Nov 3, 2022)

Well, aren't you clever!  That's bound to tally up some brownie points with management too!

You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).

Nice job, file that away for future use.

D


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## Hacker (Nov 4, 2022)

Good idea. A variable speed right angle drill might have been handy for that job.


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## Susquatch (Nov 4, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Wow I got to think that is very strange.  There should be practically no force on them once installed unless you've got some major house/plumbing shifting going on?



So here is what I think happened in this particular instance. 

The holes through the joists for the drain pipe were not properly aligned. The sink drain pipe was forced off center by the last hole before it joined into the bigger toilet drain pipe from upstairs. 

Hot and cold seasonal as well as water temperature as well as heat & A/C temp fluctuations in the duct resulted in expansion and contraction of the drain pipe at its stressed location. 

20 years of cycling eventually cracked and then failed the pipe connector. 

Basically, a perfect storm of bad conditions for the fitting. 

Yes, I opened up the hole in the joist...... LOL!


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## Susquatch (Nov 4, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Good idea. A variable speed right angle drill might have been handy for that job.



Yes, but I don't have one. Had to fit a 12V Milwaukee in there instead. Also a 12V reciprocating saw. 

The Milwaukee 12V system is great. Not very powerful but extremely convenient, compact, and handy. I just wish the batteries were more durable.


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## Susquatch (Nov 4, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> That's bound to tally up some brownie points with management too!



Ooooohhhh yaaaaaa! 



Tecnico said:


> You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).



Isn't that the truth. You should see the duct detour around the toilet sewer pipe. The plumber prolly cost the tin knocker a couple of hours! I knew of a tin knocker who would routinely cut everyone else's work out if it was in his way. He ended up going on his own cuz the general contractor could not afford to deal with the aftermath.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 4, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).



not my photo, but it made me chuckle (and groan)


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## PeterT (Nov 4, 2022)

That's too funny. Isn't this a steel bar (anti-drill-through plate)? We don't want a drywall screw making a leak in my pipe, but what you do 6" up from that is your own business LOL


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## JReimer (Nov 4, 2022)

curmudgeon said:


> not my photo, but it made me chuckle (and groan)


not my photo but it looks like the battle continues. Makes me laugh... and cry.


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## PeterT (Nov 4, 2022)

Maybe its one of those staged gags vs a real installation, but funny nonetheless. I've watched too many of those catch a crooked contractor reality shows, nothing surprises me


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## Susquatch (Nov 10, 2022)

This plumbing job is an eternal hell hole. Never saw anything like it!

First there was the repair that I posted about. Got that done with a special tool and thought I was done this project.

A while later the same pipe started leaking a few feet further back through a cold air return duct. That was a duct I could handle. When I removed the duct cover I found that a plain old butt joint had cracked all the way around. Easy fix. But still very odd. 

Then I heard some more dripping.... Another Fg leak over by the wall in a 3" pipe! I'll have to move some storage racks to get at it and don't know yet what I will find. Regardless, it will be difficult access. It's a very slow drip and I have other priorities right now so I stuck a tub under it. It will have to wait a week or so.

After I got the tub in place with a tray to funnel the water, I decided to check the rest of that drain. Sure enough, another leak in the corner behind some cabinets that are screwed to the wall. This time in a 4" pipe. Another temporary tub!

That's 4 leaks in the same system at the same time!  What the heck is going on?

I had postulated crappy pipe quality at the time the plumbing was all originally installed because I did have two previous leaks elsewhere in the house in a separate system under the bathroom at the West end. I also suspected hot cold cycles in the house itself - We keep it cold in winter and hot in summer to save energy. But now I'm wondering if there is something else going on.......

@DPittman wondered that too.


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## Janger (Nov 10, 2022)

There is that scandal about the failing household plastic water supply pipes. Is there a similar scandal for drain pipes?


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## Susquatch (Nov 10, 2022)

Janger said:


> There is that scandal about the failing household plastic water supply pipes. Is there a similar scandal for drain pipes?



That actually makes a lot of sense John. All the pipes are failing at joints in the ABS pipe itself of one type or another, not at the glued part. The weirdest failure of all was the connector. It had a perfectly circular failure at the very center of the connector. There are no stress risers there and the cross-sectional area of the connector is bigger than the pipe itself. It is totally counter intuitive.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 10, 2022)

some more conjecture...
- UV damage to the fittings prior to installation?  Old stock stored in sunlight for many seasons before installation?
- too much ABS cement during assembly?  If an excessive amount of ABS cement was used during assembly, and the pipe was not fully inserted into the fittings, might there have been large pools of ABS cement which would have weakened the ABS fittings.

G'luck with your repairs.


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## PeterT (Nov 10, 2022)

About 10 years ago my buddy had a plastic pipe failure in his home that happened when he was at work. Disaster. Affected electrical, soaked drywall drooping off the ceiling, buggered up MDF based cabinets & vanities & furniture & flooring.... I think it was 40K & counting.  The insurance company said cut a pipe coupon showing stamped ID (example Dow XYZ123) because it was known & part of some mega claim or class action. Month slater of unintended reno work he still had to cough up deductible + indirect funds in on his own. The house was a nice bungalow, nice district, built mid-80's. I said what about the rest of the homes in district all built the same time? Answer: time bombs waiting for a new family to buy & suffer similar consequences. Likely a line item you wont see on the real estate feature sheet. Might be flagged with a pre home inspection but not sure. Good luck!


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## DPittman (Nov 10, 2022)

PeterT said:


> About 10 years ago my buddy had a plastic pipe failure in his home that happened when he was at work. Disaster. Affected electrical, soaked drywall drooping off the ceiling, buggered up MDF based cabinets & vanities & furniture & flooring.... I think it was 40K & counting.  The insurance company said cut a pipe coupon showing stamped ID (example Dow XYZ123) because it was known & part of some mega claim or class action. Month slater of unintended reno work he still had to cough up deductible + indirect funds in on his own. The house was a nice bungalow, nice district, built mid-80's. I said what about the rest of the homes in district all built the same time? Answer: time bombs waiting for a new family to buy & suffer similar consequences. Likely a line item you wont see on the real estate feature sheet. Might be flagged with a pre home inspection but not sure. Good luck!


Scary stuff.


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## RobinHood (Nov 10, 2022)

In the 80s and 90s, Poly B was used extensively in domestic water supplies. Our house was plumbed with that stuff. We bought the place in 2005 and shortly after moving in started ripping all of it out. There was a note about it in the home inspection report - plus I had “inside info” from my neighbour (a General Contractor) to look out for it and get rid of it asap.

I replaced all the pipes with PEX tubing (the white stuff with the built-in aluminum layer as O2 barrier).

Google: “poly b failure rate”


Here is another type of plastic piping that has some problems…





__





						Loading…
					





					www.cbc.ca
				





This might be what has happened in your case @Susquatch:









						Defective ABS pipe
					

This is a letter my husband wrote explaining a disastrous situation we are experiencing with our renovated old house. I also posted it in the plumbing forum.  ____________________________________________________________ Black ABS plastic pipe is standard material in homes for the drainage for...




					www.houzz.com
				





This has been mentioned above:


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## Susquatch (Nov 11, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> This has been mentioned above:



That's what makes this so weird. Mine are not failing at the stress point or the glue line. They are failing in the couplers. 

I marked your photo up to show a typical location. We are away for the weekend with tubs in place so I can't take photos of my actual parts.


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## Hacker (Nov 11, 2022)

If they are failing in that area that is a stress point for any flexing if the pipe is not properly supported.


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## Susquatch (Nov 11, 2022)

Hacker said:


> If they are failing in that area that is a stress point for any flexing if the pipe is not properly supported.



I think the support is actually quite good. The North South pipes all go through holes in the web of the silent floor joists, and the East West pipes are hung from straps every 3 ft or so. 

My biggest suspicion is the expansion and contraction of the long runs. But the pipes are not constrained so that is a long shot.


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## Hacker (Nov 11, 2022)

Different runs, fitting type and sizes makes me think that the manufacture got something wrong in the process. I suspect you are going to become very proficient at replacing those fittings.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That's what makes this so weird. Mine are not failing at the stress point or the glue line. They are failing in the couplers.



If the ABS pipe is not cut square, or the exterior is not deburred, or the pipes are not fully inserted/twisted into the couplings then there are increased chances for excess amounts of ABS cement (more is not always better) to puddle inside the fittings and weaken them where marked.

Although it would be interesting to see a longitudinal cross section of a failed fitting to guess if the failures were due to a manufacturing or installation defect, it won't help @Susquatch replace all of the defective fittings.  Replacing drains when both ends are already connected is not fun: This weekend I will finish the project to connect our house to the City sewer system.  Previously, all branch drains connected to a 4" cast iron pipe partially buried in the crawl space leading west to the septic tank.  Now, all the branch drains have been rerouted to a new 4" ABS collector leading east and then south to a pump tank containing a pair of pumps to lift the 34' elevation to the City's sewer line at the road.  Passed final inspection yesterday, all that's left is to cap the end of the old cast iron pipe in the crawlspace, and finish filling the old septic tank.


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## Susquatch (Nov 11, 2022)

curmudgeon said:


> Although it would be interesting to see a longitudinal cross section of a failed fitting to guess if the failures were due to a manufacturing or installation defect



I'll try to section a few of the failed parts. Not sure what to expect.


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## Degen (Nov 11, 2022)

Reading through all this, normally I would agree, age, length, expansion, contraction, and the list goes on.

But in this case sorry to say big hairy friend, you pissed off some god and well you are in for leaky pipes until they/it are satisfied in tormenting you.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 12, 2022)

Perhaps a complete tear down and replacement of all plumbing is required. $$$$$$$$$


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## Degen (Nov 12, 2022)

I must say while laughing, we all go thru this, preferably not too often.

Just remember when you looking for problems they will fund you so sometimes ignorance is bliss (even  though we pay for it later).


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## Susquatch (Nov 13, 2022)

Here is a shot of the failed coupler. The stains are the result of the leak. 






Here is a section through the straight coupler. Ignore the lengthwise gradient. It's just an artifact of my efforts to polish the sample in order to see the crack and the material around it better. 






I don't see anything to suggest that the solvent damaged the integrity of the coupler. It still looks like substandard quality and/or excessive stress to me.


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## Degen (Nov 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Here is a shot of the failed coupler. The stains are the result of the leak.
> 
> View attachment 27879
> 
> ...


I would agree with your assessment and would lean towards stress likely a little tension (bending) on it combined with movement, expansion/contraction and that's where it failed.

Ultimately who knows.....

Hopefully these experiences are coming to an end for you.


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## historicalarms (Nov 13, 2022)

Degen said:


> I must say while laughing, we all go thru this, preferably not too often.
> 
> Just remember when you looking for problems they will fund you so sometimes ignorance is bliss (even  though we pay for it later).


  Kind'a reminds me of turning the volume up on the truck tunes to drown out some foreign noise coming from something that you know is going to cost you some bucks....works until you run out of volume.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't see anything to suggest that the solvent damaged the integrity of the coupler. It still looks like substandard quality and/or excessive stress to me.



Agreed. Good pics.  G'luck with your repairs.


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## RobinHood (Nov 13, 2022)

IDK…

Legend: (it was hard to see exactly where each part of the glued assembly is. Maybe using some liquid to wet the ABS might show the glue line between the pipe and the coupler better?).

blue => glue
green => coupler
red => pipes






Look at the interface between the pipe and the shoulder of the coupler… looks like the pipe coming from the bottom in the picture did not make it all the way to the center shoulder (ie, it did not bottom out) on assembly leaving a glue puddle. The crack emanates right from that area out. Bet that puddle of glue was on the bottom of the coupler as assembled in the run.

If my observation is correct, it could be a failure because of excess glue - as discussed in posts above.

If you have another failed joint you could cross-section, see if it looks the same.


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## Susquatch (Nov 13, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> IDK…
> 
> Legend: (it was hard to see exactly where each part of the glued assembly is. Maybe using some liquid to wet the ABS might show the glue line between the pipe and the coupler better?).
> 
> ...



If you make the green fatter and red thinner to end where your blue is, that would be about right. 

But yes, the crack starts where the pipe didn't fully seat. 

I had thought perhaps the shorter engagement might have put more cantilever anchor forces on the coupling and stressed it excessively. But I've glued a lot of ABS in my life and can't always get the pipe all the way in. It's never been a problem before. 

I didn't do the original install though. 

I thought I had the other fitting, but I think the bride pitched it. I'll look for it again. I doubt it has the same concern cuz it broke much further up the adapter. 

Lemme look.


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## DPittman (Nov 13, 2022)

This thread has made me worry.

 I replaced all the steel and cast iron dwv plumbing in my house down to the floor about 25-30 years ago.  Although I have never had an ounce of problem with it, I am now worried about the abs I used and I certainly would have used an excess amount of glue at times.


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## Degen (Nov 13, 2022)

DPittman said:


> This thread has made me worry.
> 
> I replaced all the steel and cast iron dwv plumbing in my house down to the floor about 25-30 years ago.  Although I have never had an ounce of problem with it, I am now worried about the abs I used and I certainly would have used an excess amount of glue at times.


Truthfully, I've done the same over 40 years and am not worried.  Some pipe I know are under a little stress and to date never had issues (yet).  The only failure I've had is where significant stress was applied (installation error on my part, I knew from the get go and gambled it work, it didn't long term)  failure occurred with 5-10 years and I've only had 2 such failures.


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## Susquatch (Nov 13, 2022)

Degen said:


> I've only had 2 such failures



That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime. 

I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens. 

I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.


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## Degen (Nov 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime.
> 
> I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens.
> 
> I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.


Well a lot of stress (like I said it was a gamble and I really forced it after the fact).


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## DPittman (Nov 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime.
> 
> I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens.
> 
> I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.


Totally understandable to feel that way, heck I even had to rant to my wife what a horrible thing that is and how it could happen (bad pipes)


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## Susquatch (Nov 14, 2022)

curmudgeon said:


> If an excessive amount of ABS cement was used during assembly, and the pipe was not fully inserted into the fittings, might there have been large pools of ABS cement which would have weakened the ABS fittings.



I don't know what to make of this. Yes, the regular connection that I sectioned was not fully seated and yes there was excess cement pooled up there. But I can't really see why that would weaken the connector. 

For that matter, how does anyone control the amount of cement used or where it pools. Isn't this situation a standard consideration that happens all over the place in any given house? Why can't the fittings handle that? 

What the heck does a fellow do when such a pipe connection fails in the walls between floors? Or in the first floor ceiling below the second floor in a two story home? 

This whole thing is just plain wrong. 

I did a little digging and found this online. 

"In some areas, California for instance, ABS pipe is prohibited (illegal) to use. *Because ABS is often a recycled or “regrind” plastic resin (to make it cost-competitive with PVC), it was essentially weakened*. This caused instances of pipe fatigue and failure which led some areas to ban its use."

Just Fg great. I have a whole house full of the crappy stuff..... 

Also found lots of references suggesting it should not be left outside because it degrades rapidly in sunlight. Somebody should tell that to the plumbing supply places.....

I did find a whole bunch of references that recommended a fiberglass epoxy wrap instead of removing and replacing fittings. Wish I saw that earlier..


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## Degen (Nov 14, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't know what to make of this. Yes, the regular connection that I sectioned was not fully seated and yes there was excess cement pooled up there. But I can't really see why that would weaken the connector.
> 
> For that matter, how does anyone control the amount of cement used or where it pools. Isn't this situation a standard consideration that happens all over the place in any given house? Why can't the fittings handle that?
> 
> ...


BTW so is PVC and it has the same issues.  Recycled that is.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 14, 2022)

Daughter has plumbing issues in my parents old house, The pipe that runs out to the septic tank is cast iron and has collapsed under the concrete floor. Time to rent a jack hammer. This house was built in 58 and nothing lasts forever.


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## DPittman (Nov 14, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Daughter has plumbing issues in my parents old house, The pipe that runs out to the septic tank is cast iron and has collapsed under the concrete floor. Time to rent a jack hammer. This house was built in 58 and nothing lasts forever.


Yup in my house of the same era  it was the big 4" cast iron pipe behind a wall that rusted through.  It never leaked liquid (above drain level) but there would be occasional sewer gas smell from behind the wall.  I replaced all with abs and have never worried about it again until this thread.


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## little ol' e (Nov 14, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'll try to section a few of the failed parts. Not sure what to expect.



I wonder if it could be a venting issue? I don't know much about plumbing and venting but I have heard some pipes rattle in older homes when flushing the toilet, draining the kitchen sink etc.
When I was a younger kid, (Jus' an old kid now)  I thought my Grandmothers house was haunted.  Every time I pulled the plug out of the bathtub or kitchen sink, I heard rattles and gremlins of all sorts coming up from the drains...
I hope you find the cause and chase those Gremlins out of the pipes for good!


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## Tecnico (Nov 14, 2022)

Reading this thread makes me wonder about the long term reliability of the latest "innovation", foam/cellular core ABS DWV pipe.  I presume it's made that way to reduce the volume of ABS needed to make pipe and save small amounts of production cost.

I noticed the foam thing one day when I went looking for ABS stock to machine.

Thankfully my house doesn't seem to have any......

D


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## historicalarms (Nov 14, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Daughter has plumbing issues in my parents old house, The pipe that runs out to the septic tank is cast iron and has collapsed under the concrete floor. Time to rent a jack hammer. This house was built in 58 and nothing lasts forever.


  For a time I was employed in supervising the water / sewage installation business in a Calgary subdivision and hired crews that worked on sewage repairs in the older parts of the city...the horor stories they could tell about the crumbling infrastructure by the thousands of miles of decaying lines in all of North America. Many many miles in Cowtown alone with no pipe left, just a hole left by the pipe that fluids keep washing bigger & bigger... When a sink hole opens up in a city street and swallows a bus or cars, that swirl pool that creates the hole pretty much always originates from one of these sewer runs. its not only house systems that are decaying, total "old city"  infrastructure is stressed.

   And Susquatch...a warning from another old bugger... that stress in the house piping system is causing stress in your own piping system that can come to no good end...take a rest pls.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 14, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> Reading this thread makes me wonder about the long term reliability of the latest "innovation", foam/cellular core ABS DWV pipe.  I presume it's made that way to reduce the volume of ABS needed to make pipe and save small amounts of production cost.


Cellular core ABS has been around for quite a while; I think earlier than @Susquatch  's home was built.  Another "benefit" is that it is significantly lighter than the older ABS pipe; saving more pennies on shipping and distribution.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 14, 2022)

A person could always take the Mike Holmes approach to renovations, spend 250,000 on a 50,000 house.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 14, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Yup in my house of the same era  it was the big 4" cast iron pipe behind a wall that rusted through.  It never leaked liquid (above drain level) but there would be occasional sewer gas smell from behind the wall.  I replaced all with abs and have never worried about it again until this thread.


I just finished pulling the remaining cast iron pipe from our home, replacing in with ABS.  All of the cast iron pipe was in remarkably good condition; the only exceptions being the butt ends where it had been cut to splice in newer connections with Fernco style couplings.  The cast iron piping is quieter than the new ABS piping.  As far as I can piece together, our home was upgraded to cast iron DWV in the 50s along with a "modern" single chamber septic tank and field; this replaced the 3' long clay drain pipes and rock filled pit.  The clay pipe ends were belled but I don't know if the connections were sealed.

As an aside, the Milwaukee 7 TPI Torch carbide Sawzall blades worked very well for cutting the cast iron pipe and fittings.


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## Tom O (Nov 14, 2022)

My brothers house has had about 3 floods so far from the pressurized water lines letting go I’m thinking it’s from the hammering effect as the water is stopped.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 14, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't know what to make of this. Yes, the regular connection that I sectioned was not fully seated and yes there was excess cement pooled up there. But I can't really see why that would weaken the connector.
> 
> For that matter, how does anyone control the amount of cement used or where it pools. Isn't this situation a standard consideration that happens all over the place in any given house? Why can't the fittings handle that?
> 
> ...



I feel your pain; very frustrating I'm sure. 

The ABS cement is a solvent, that is supposed to dissolve the surfaces of the fitting and pipe, then fuse them together as the cement cures.  Full depth seating ensures positive contact all around the pipe; the cement is not there as a glue to bridge a gap between pipe and fitting.  Of course, some bridging may occur, pass a static pressure test, and be OK for a very long time.  As I understand it, cement pooling means that the solvent dissolves more of the fitting than it was designed for, and it could weaken that fitting to a point where the combination of mis-alignment pressures during installation, and repeated hot-cold cycles eventually cause the fitting to fail.

Good workmanship includes:
- pipe and fittings are well aligned so there is no torque being applied to the joint
- pipe is well supported so its weight and the weight of its contents don't add torque
- there are sufficient expansion joints between floors in a combined waste/vent pipe to reduce the effect of heating/cooling cycles
- pipe is cut square, interior is deburred, and exterior is slightly chamfered to ensure it can be fully seated into the fitting without scraping all of the liquid cement out of the joint
- pipe is fully seated in the fitting

Skipping any of those steps can reduce the lifespan of a fitting.  I'm not a trained plumber; just a homeowner that curses the shoddy ones.

To get at my most recent DWV project I had to cut open the finished drywall in a few locations - suggest you cut your drywall along the centres of nearby studs, and no closer than 6" from the ceiling or top of baseboards to make your drywall repairs a bit easier.  Make your hole big enough the first time to do all your work in since it's the almost the same effort to patch a big one or a little one.  

There is a chance that your DWV was installed by a professional plumber along with a poorly trained/supervised helper, and you've already found all of the helper's connections that are likely to fail.  It wouldn't be wrong IMO to continue just dealing with the problems as they show up.  Or, maybe not...  Tough call.  My experience with insurance claims is that they'll cover the cost of the damage, but not the cost of the repairs.  e.g. a wet ceiling/floor/wall will be replaced, but if you cut open the ceiling/wall/floor as part of a repair it won't be covered.  

If you do decide to bite the bullet and redo everything for peace of mind, suggest you open everything up before you start re-work and then work from bottom-up without trying to keep up-stream fixtures operational as you go.  Working in the middle with 2 fixed ends is slow, hard going and typically adds unwanted stress to fittings.  I foolishly did not take that path and had a very frustrating time rolling around in the crawlspace.

G'luck!!!


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## Tecnico (Nov 14, 2022)

Tom O said:


> My brothers house has had about 3 floods so far from the pressurized water lines letting go I’m thinking it’s from the hammering effect as the water is stopped.


Are the pipes plastic?  PEX? There's a page here that talks about failures in PEX systems including Kitec.  

PEX Link

The biggest issue according to the reference seems to be dezincification of fittings.  The link talks about being able to exceed the 20 - 25 year standard warranty which for me is less than I would expect for a reliable system.

Water hammer may just provoke a failing fitting to leak?

D


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## Susquatch (Nov 15, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> Are the pipes plastic?  PEX? There's a page here that talks about failures in PEX systems including Kitec.
> 
> PEX Link
> 
> ...



Water hammer is easy to deal with. Just need a small air bladder at the end of the lines. Doesn't even need to be big.

The other approach is to teach users to turn off taps slowly. Good luck with that one!

Ive hated PEX since the first time I saw it. My home is PEX end to end.


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## Degen (Nov 15, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> A person could always take the Mike Holmes approach to renovations, spend 250,000 on a 50,000 house.


Never. I've seen the aftermath of a few Mike Holmes reno's, not impressed.


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