# Dial indicator clean and lube



## trlvn (Nov 8, 2021)

Since Blondihacks posted her video on Repairing Dial Indicators, I've cleaned and lubed a couple of really old ones in my possession.  

Repairing Dial Indicators - Diagnosing, Fixing, and How They Work!

Among my auction haul from a couple of days ago was a kind of nifty back plunge Ames.  As you can see, it was in need of a bit of TLC:






The plunger would barely move; I had to pull on the anvil to get it to come back out.  I figured I had absolutely nothing to lose so I completely disassembled it:






I didn't have the proper tool to remove the needle from the stem so I just pulled carefully with a small pair of pliers.  To clean it, I swabbed with rubbing alcohol on Q-tips and a pipe cleaner.  The plastic 'cystal', outer dial ring and the main case body, I washed with warm water, hand soap and a nail brush.  Some of the internal parts were caked with old oil and crud but the alcohol seemed eventually loosen the mess.  

After a couple of false starts and some head-scratching, I figured out which way the gears had to be oriented so that it had a full range of travel after reassembly.  I think it looks a bit better now:






Better yet, the action is smooth and quick!  I'm not sure where I'll actually use this but at least it is ready for service again.

Craig


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## Canadium (Nov 8, 2021)

I've been through a similar process. I got the auction lot with 6 old indicators. Most all were at least a bit stcky. With one exception a little bit of instrument oil on the shaft solved the problem. By chance the one indicator that was still a problem happened to be the exact same model as the one Blondihacks videoed. A Federal B21. I took mine apart and reassembled it but it still does not return to the same point reliably. Still need to work on it some more but got distracted with other pressing projects. Where did you get your Novus and what did you use for instrument oil? I shopped around a lot for the Novus which I found to be a bit pricey at some places. I wanted to get the Starrett instrument oil but didn't want to spent big bucks for a big order to get free shipping.


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## trlvn (Nov 8, 2021)

I didn't buy the Novus; I believe it was among my late brother's stuff.  Or possibly in a box lot I picked up a few years ago.

I used the tiniest drops of sewing machine oil.  I did a dry assembly and everything seemed to turn pretty well so then I only added minute amounts of oil on the gears and pivot points.

I have a little bottle of gun oil (also from an estate) that I debated about using.  Both are very light oils.

You've just made me think that it would be cool to somehow mark when this servicing was done.  Something for the next guy to find, especially inside the case.  Wish I had an engraver.

Craig


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## Brent H (Nov 8, 2021)

@Canadium:  I got my Novus from "I think"  Amazon - can check for you.  I use it for cleaning and waxing my pinball machine table.  Works great! It is a go to for most pinball restorers.

Yep  - Amazon : https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B002UD0GIG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Brent H (Nov 8, 2021)

Great job Craig - well done!  Bravo and pip pip, jolly good etc!


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 8, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Since Blondihacks posted her video on Repairing Dial Indicators, I've cleaned and lubed a couple of really old ones in my possession.
> ...
> 
> Better yet, the action is smooth and quick!  I'm not sure where I'll actually use this but at least it is ready for service again.
> ...


I bet that was satisfying. Nice job.


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## Susquatch (Nov 8, 2021)

Great job @trlvn & @Canadium! Bet you are both pleased.

Clock oil ought to be perfect. Same purpose, same application, same environment. Comes in a small needle one drop sized applicator. Worked fine on an anniversary clock (wind only once a year) I repaired years ago.

Supposedly the synthetic stuff doesn't dry out or turn gummy after 30 years time. 

Liberty Oil, 100% Synthetic Oil for Clocks https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00AZMGFI4/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_A5GX1FDBVXCE7N2708C7

Might be able to get smaller quantity at your local jewelry repair shop.


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## trlvn (Nov 9, 2021)

@Susquatch thanks!  However, if I was willing to spend that kind of money, I think I would just break down and buy Starrett's Instrument Oil:



> Ideal for maximum protection and lubrication of measuring tools, precision instruments and light machinery
> Guards highly finished tools, parts and machine surfaces against rust
> Protects fire arms, fishing tackle and other sporting equipment and keeps working parts in perfect condition
> Cleans bright metals and polishes furniture







			Amazon.ca
		


TBH, the description kind of cracks me up.  Pretty similar to the description of 3-in-One oil!

Craig


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## Susquatch (Nov 9, 2021)

trlvn said:


> @Susquatch thanks!  However, if I was willing to spend that kind of money, I think I would just break down and buy Starrett's Instrument Oil:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ya. It is that! 

I wouldn't pay that either. Besides, what are you gunna do with that much of that kind of oil? 

For my part, I wasn't recommending the Amazon oil. Just pointing out that it exists. I'd sooner go to a clock repair place. 

I've seen some clock oil in a small syringe like tube with a metal application needle. Quite capable of putting a 10th of a drop wherever you want it and only where you want it. That's what I'd be looking for. Even so, unless you open a commercial shop you won't use it all in your lifetime.


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## Mcgyver (Nov 9, 2021)

Good stuff, always fun to get some success in fixing something like that.  I would fully encourage anyone to have a go at it as its kill or cure; almost always they are not useful as is and too expensive to ship and have repaired commercially

I do have at least moderate amount of watchmaking experience and parlayed that into fixing many indicators.   Indicators are huge and massively over power compared to a watch so there is some forgiveness, however I would fairly strongly disagree with a few points in that video.

1)  you have to disassemble and clean everything properly.  Gunked up hairsprings are the most common issue and she doesn't even remove it!  You'd all hear the collective gasp if a group of watchmakers heard someone say you don't have to take apart a watch to service it.

2) Don't oil your indicators.  It'll seem to work because it temporarily dissolves the dried up gunk, but soon enough it will be a problem again .  In post 31 in the below I tried explain the rational for not oiling.   This is based on my knowledge of lubricating watches (a crucial and somewhat tricky, i.e. not as simple as it might seem) and what seems to mess up indicators.  (If someone used to work at say the Tesa factory, or has better info, it would be great to hear it)









						Hey Guys!!!  I dare you to find a better auction than this…..  Starts Tomorrow.
					

Lot 107 is a Yasusa tilting table. If it is the 6X5 (my best guess) it is worth about 1100$ new and is in almost unused condition.  Lot 147 Interrapid tenths indicator -made in Switzerland- I'm pretty sure they are no longer made in Europe since the buyout.  If I didn't have one already, I'd...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
				




3) She doesn't remove the hairspring, how does she check for a cracked jewel underneath?   The second most common issue in my experience

The only specialty tool needed are hand removers (other than good screw drivers that won't mar the heads, and tweezers).  I've tried them all; the style below is imo a the best (complete control of the force used), inexpensive and could be home made


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## Susquatch (Nov 9, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Good stuff, always fun to get some success in fixing something like that.  I would fully encourage anyone to have a go at it as its kill or cure; almost always they are not useful as is and too expensive to ship and have repaired commercially
> 
> I do have at least moderate amount of watchmaking experience and parlayed that into fixing many indicators.   Indicators are huge and massively over power compared to a watch so there is some forgiveness, however I would fairly strongly disagree with a few points in that video.
> 
> ...



Cool trick! Love the split paper to protect the gauge face! 

A little surprised at the no-oil advice but experience is the toughest teacher of all - because she gives the test before she gives the lesson. 

Would you say that's true even if the parts are properly cleaned and the oil is a high quality synthetic that won't evaporate or gum up and is applied at teeny tiny fractions of a drop? 

Do you replace cracked jewels or just pitch the whole thing?


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## Mcgyver (Nov 9, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Would you say that's true



Good Q's, but I think are all covered in my verbose post 31. 

The experience is seeing where the problems develop, but really the weight of the argument is knowledge of the how and why a watch is oiled (its not like oiling your bicycle chain, there is theory and reasons behind the exacting way it is done), and noticing the differences in physical structure and how an indicator is used. (see post 31)

Cleaning doesn't matter to my advice, I assume a proper servicing has got things clean.  Otherwise the paste of oil/dust/microscope grit that the oil becomes wears them out more quickly.  Mechanical watches must be oiled but subsequently must be properly serviced (cleaned and re-oiled) every few years or they get into trouble.  e.g. the gritty paste the the oil becomes accelerates wear or it just drys up, gets gummy and stops the thing .    But if you did oil an indicator, who then professional services them every few years?  No one, yet the good ones cast last generations without lubrication.  How does that happen?  The duty cycle could be rounded to zero compared to that of a watch.


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## Susquatch (Nov 9, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Good Q's, but I think are all covered in my verbose post 31.
> 
> The experience is seeing where the problems develop, but really the weight of the argument is knowledge of the how and why a watch is oiled (its not like oiling your bicycle chain, there is theory and reasons behind the exacting way it is done), and noticing the differences in physical structure and how an indicator is used. (see post 31)
> 
> Cleaning doesn't matter to my advice, I assume a proper servicing has got things clean.  Otherwise the paste of oil/dust/microscope grit that the oil becomes wears them out more quickly.  Mechanical watches must be oiled but subsequently must be properly serviced (cleaned and re-oiled) every few years or they get into trouble.  e.g. the gritty paste the the oil becomes accelerates wear or it just drys up, gets gummy and stops the thing .    But if you did oil an indicator, who then professional services them every few years?  No one, yet the good ones cast last generations without lubrication.  How does that happen?  The duty cycle could be rounded to zero compared to that of a watch.



Good stuff. Well written summary of what wasn't so obvious (or blatent) before. I like your thinking on it. Especially rounding to zero..... LOL! 

No oil it is then!


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## Mcgyver (Nov 9, 2021)

PS....I thought afterward it might have seemed like I rushed in saying you guys are doing it wrong or came across that I was being critical of you guys fixing them.  Didn't intend that.  I think its awesome you're doing so and oiling is not really going to hurt them,  just mean that they get sticky sooner.  I did mean to be critical of that video as a how-to lesson for a couple of reasons noted and explain why I think cleaned & dry is preferred.  Regardless, you are bring a useful tool back to like so good on you for doing so


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## trlvn (Nov 9, 2021)

@Mcgyver no problem, I'm always happy to hear other's thoughts and experiences.  I know enough to know that there is a lot that I don't know!  Maybe I'll have to clean & service this indicator in a few years.  Maybe having this discussion will help me to think twice about oiling it at that point!

BTW, I really did use a minuscule amount of oil.  From time to time, I watch Youtube videos on servicing old high-end watches, especially the Nekkid Watchmaker.  From those, I've picked up that fine watches only need exceedingly small amounts of very specific lubricants.  



			https://www.youtube.com/c/NekkidWatchmaker
		


Craig
(The Nekkid Watchmaker has a dry and droll sense of humour that he sprinkles in while restoring some incredibly abused timepieces back to their glory days.)


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## DPittman (Nov 10, 2021)

Hmnn all this talk and good vice about dti's has made me want to dismantle one or two of mine.  I only have cheap Chinese made ones and have decided that's all I should have because I seem to keep throwing them on the floor.


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## Mcgyver (Nov 10, 2021)

trlvn said:


> @Mcgyver
> BTW, I really did use a minuscule amount of oil.  From time to time, I watch Youtube videos on servicing old high-end watches, especially the Nekkid Watchmaker.  From those, I've picked up that fine watches only need exceedingly small amounts of very specific lubricants.



There is a fair bit to oiling a watch.  You're correct its a very small amount used, indeed different amounts for type types/sizes, and its not all one kind of oil.  Getting it right and controlling the amount is a big deal, takes special tools and experience.

The reason/logic is that the oil stays in place because of its surface tension, geometry of the jewel and amount of oil.  All three need to be right or the oil runs off.  I tried to explain this in the link above.  The problem is this does not scale to indicators.  Have a look at the photo of a typical indicator jewel beside the largest watch jewel I had (I have a lot to pick from lol).   Its to big for the same surface tension mechanism to work so will run off in short order.  Thats how hair springs get gummed up and the indicator starts feeling 'sticky'.  that plus about 1 / 100,000the duty cycle compared to a watch

If you're going to service them every few years its all good and oil won't likely harm them....but is that is rarely the case that they get serviced/cleaned with most indicator users, so I maintain they shouldn't be lubricated


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## Perry (Nov 10, 2021)

I agree with Mcgyver.   No oil.   In the links you can see a freshly cleaned dial indicator with oil.   The oil is dragging the mechanism down.   The non-oil version snaps correctly back.









						MOV_2863.mp4
					






					drive.google.com
				











						MOV_2861.mp4
					






					drive.google.com
				





I work on watches also.    Tried my hand at a dial indicator for one of the guys on the group here.   Took me a bit to figure out what was causing it to drag.   The father of an older watchmaker on another forum I belong to use to service this type of equipment in his day.   I was told not to lubricate them.



I also noticed the hand on the dial indicator seems to have a tighter tolerance then a watch hand.  My guess is the snap back action could jar it loose on a dial indicator.  That tighter tolerance makes it a little harder to remove and a little harder to reinstall.


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## trlvn (Nov 11, 2021)

Does it make a difference whether the indicator has jeweled pivot points or not?  The Ames that is the subject of this thread does not appear to have jewels:






It looks to me that the gear shaft rides in a bearing, perhaps bronze.

Also, I note that Starrett says the following about their tool and instrument oil:



> Instrument oil is an extra-fine lubricant made to our specifications and *used in our factory* to lubricate and protect our precision measuring tools and instruments.







__





						1620 Tool and Instrument Oil
					

Instrument oil is an extra-fine lubricant made to our specifications and used in our factory to lubricate and protect our precision measuring tools and instruments.




					www.starrett.com
				



[emphasis added]

To me, the bottom line is that the indicators I'll work on are pretty inexpensive and I don't think I can do that much harm either by adding oil or not!  As mcgyver says, the duty cycle, especially in my hands, is funtionally zero compared to a watch.  Cleaning out the dirt and junk--as imperfectly as I did--has got to be a good thing for moving parts.

Craig


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## Mcgyver (Nov 11, 2021)

for sure, cleaning is always good.  if not clean they may not work and will more rapidly wear.

Jewelled or plane,  I would say it doesn't make a difference based on the logic that because of the larger size there is no mechanism to keep the oil in place like there is was the smaller watch geometry ( surface tension)  so it doesn't really do much as its not there for long (heads out on its mission to gum up the hairspring lol)

On servicing non jewelled bearings, the thing to check for, which does scale from watch/clock work, is the condition of the bearing surface and wear/irregularly shaped holes.  In horology, pivots gets burnished and polished if there is any scoring or where worn, (non jewel) bearings get replaced (rebushed).  In extreme cases of wear you repivot,  basically drill out and install a new pivot.  Not to say it couldn't happen, but I've not seen that on an indicator (low comparative duty cycle).

When you see a damaged pivot on an indicator, in my experience, it means there is a broken jewel, a hard edge of which is grinding away at the pivot


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 11, 2021)

Just got a Mitutoyo dial test indicator and a Mitutoyo dial indicator like new, also in the stuff was a STM dial test indicator that doesn't move at all. Are the STM worth spending time on? Never tore one of these apart, much smaller than farm equipment i usually fix.


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## Brent H (Nov 11, 2021)

@6.5 Fan : if its all seized up  - might be worth just the experience to see how it all comes apart.  You can't break it any more than it is


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## Perry (Nov 11, 2021)

Craig, I'm still with Mcgyver on this one.  No oil.

"Does it make a difference whether the indicator has jeweled pivot points or not?"
It should.  The jeweled pivot points in theory should have less friction, but in real life they can be worn, out of round, cracked, incorrectly installed or sized wrong.   Like everything there are different grades.

I've played with a number of watches with no jewels and I'm still amazed at how well they work.  I've also worked on watches with too many jewels.










Here is a rotor off a watch with...."100 jewels"  and a 21 jewel  watch movement.  ( 4 extra jewels added to a plate on the ratchet wheel, with room to add another 5 jewels.)   These jewels have no function at all.  Just there to add to the jewels count in the watch and I guess maybe you could use them as spares?

"Also, I note that Starrett says the following about their tool and instrument oil:
Instrument oil is an extra-fine lubricant made to our specifications and used in our factory to lubricate and protect our precision measuring tools and instruments."

It doesn't say what instruments they are using it on or how.  Maybe they are just wiping the surfaces down for a corrosion protection?  I could see a light wiping of the plunger and the rack on it, but not in the pivot points.


Try a good cleaning and reassemble dry.  If it works all good.  If not try the oil.  Nothing to loose.

The unit I worked on had two springs.  A coiled spring to return the plunger and a hairspring which brings the needle back to the zeroed position.
When pushing in on the plunger the mechanism is coupled with the needle and they move together. When you release the force on the plunger there is a  "clutch" that disengages the plunger from the needle. The plunger returns easily under the force of the coil spring.   The needle returns under the force of the hairspring.  Not a lot of force here.  The slightest amount of lubrication added drag to the needle.   I tried a number of different watch maker lubricants and I also have access to a wide range of aviation products.  Some worked a little better then others but not as good as dry.   I also though that the hairspring may have worn out. Tried to come up with a test for that but in the end it worked good dry and the number of cycles on that dry pivot point is so low it made no sense to go any farther.


Sorry,  I'm kinda draggin on......

My point in that last paragraph is that the "in plane bearing surface" shown in your photo is most likely on the gear that is driven by the rack. There is probably a heavy spring that is pulling that plunger and rack back.

If I'm looking at your pictures correctly , that plate on the bottom left retains the gear and shaft assembly?  More importantly there should be some "endshake" when that plate is installed.   The gear and shaft assembly should have a slight amount of play to move between the retained surfaces.


Final tips.  After your final cleaning.  Assemble off of a lint free surface.   Use a loupe or magnifying glass and try to catch all the small little bits of un-seeable pieces of fibers and strands that still find there way inside.   It is amazing what makes its way back into a clean assembly.  Watchmakers use a puddy called rodico to dab and catch all the little pieces.   I'm sure you could improvise.


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## Perry (Nov 11, 2021)

Also Craig, I just watched the Blondie hacks video you linked. 

Couple things.

She tries to zero the indicator at the end.  If I'm correct the indicator should not go back to zero but approx. 1/4 of gauge travel prior to 0.  This allows for a preload on the mechanism when you set it up to use it.  (You can/should also preload the coil spring slightly prior to engaging the rack assembly when assembling the unit.)

I think near the end when her needle was not returning correctly (repeatability) to the same reading was not due to the backlash, but due to the drag from the oil she applied.  The backlash on the rack and pinion will affect the return of the plunger assembly.

She also uses an alcohol wipe on the crystal.  That can cause it to craze.  I purposely do this to age crystals to make them look more vintage then they are.   I've never heard of the Novus.   I use a compound called Polywatch that might be useful for some of the guys here trying to restore the clarity.   In reality you can use any fine abrasive and work your way up thru the grades until you get to a crystal clear lens. (for an acrylic lens)


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 12, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @6.5 Fan : if its all seized up  - might be worth just the experience to see how it all comes apart.  You can't break it any more than it is


Yup that is my plan, can't resist having a peak under the skirts.


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## Susquatch (Nov 12, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Yup that is my plan, can't resist having a peak under the skirts.


Some delicate things are not meant to be looked at you know. They are touchy feely only. You look at stuff like that without a certificate of proficiency from the proper authorities and you might go blind or be turned into a pillar of salt. Just sayin......


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## johnnielsen (Nov 13, 2021)

Kudos, Gentlemen. A very interesting thread doing stuff I am still not comfortable with tackling due to my hands. I have size 23 fingers (ring size).


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 17, 2021)

Had a wee peek under the skirts yesterday, those are some small screws holding things together. Loosened up the screws inside and it works. Had a devil of a time putting those little buggers back in place, sure not like working on a tractor or baler. I don't know if it will last, time will tell.


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## Mcgyver (Nov 17, 2021)

6.5, the trick is to use tweezers.  Good dumont watchmakers ones.  They become an extension of your hand whereas not so good ones add to the frustration.   A great deal of success with small work is deftly handling small parts with tweezers, imo its a skill that take some time to develop (I've a ways to go but watch parts don't go "ping" across the room as often as they once did).

here's a watch screw against a 1/4-20 socket head screw.  working with them would be close to impossible without tweezers.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 17, 2021)

Thanks for the tip Mcgyver, arthritis in the fingers doesn't help working with really small stuff either.


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## Susquatch (Nov 17, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Thanks for the tip Mcgyver, arthritis in the fingers doesn't help working with really small stuff either.



On top of arthritis, let's not forget the shakes and bad eyes. 

I'm beginning to think that practice in old age doesn't matter anymore. Just dive in and do it. If you wait till you practice enough, everything else will get worse than the improvement and you end up going backwards. 

Just git er done @6.5 Fan !


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