# @Susquatch continued discussion



## Dan Dubeau (Mar 29, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> So, my humour sucks. Too dry to get the humour without being there I guess. Certainly not meant to be argumentative.
> 
> I really didn't miss your point Dan. Nor did I miss your joking tone. In fact I laughed out loud. Especially at getting three!
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your story.  Lends more context to your words, and I'd love to hear an industrial insiders history on printers and their progression if you ever feel like thumbing out a response .  What industries did you work in that were developing 3d printing tech?  I first entered the automotive manufacturing industry in 2000.  I've never worked on the cutting edge of tech, and in fact quite the opposite.  Mostly in smaller mom and pop shops highly resistant to change and trying to drag them into and embrace the CNC era just to survive.  Jumping from lifeboat to lifeboat every couple of years.  It's been a good career, challenging. Rewarding, just not very monetarily, though lol.  

I've watched my little industry (automotive checking fixtures) change a lot over the years from the days we used to plot out full size designs and fedex them to customers, who would internally review them, then we'd have big in person meetings whit catered lunches and high ranking people from the big 3 etc to review large packages of jobs etc.  Lead times, money, all in abundance.  Now it's zoom/webex meetings and the lunch sucks.   The last large job I just did was reviewed and signed off without even prints.  Just a cad model, and a few webex meetings, and start building it.  Can we have it tomorrow?  Not a polished process yet, but shows promise.  Not everybody onboard embraces tech, but IMO anytime I can shed time wasting traditions with no reduction in the end quality of the product I'm game.  I always hated the "that's the way we always do it mentality" and prefer to work backwards from the finished product and strip away the time wasting procedures that don't contribute anything except traditions.  If you always do what you've always done you always get what you've always got.   With less and less meat on the bone with every job nowadays you have to find efficiencies or you don't survive. 

As to the humor thing, don't take me too seriously.  I vary rarely do myself, and like to joke around and have fun at my expense a lot.   It's always tough to convey humour through words on a screen, as we all have various different personalities, backgrounds and come from different generations where references to thing may not come across as cleanly.  Tone of voice, facial expressions, etc all have a big part in interpreting humour that are lacking from written word.  But we all share the common bond of making chips and creating things from metal and other materials (or we wouldn't be on a metalworking site right?), so I hope we can all find common ground there.  Even if my jokes aren't funny to others, they still make me laugh.  

As for recommending printers? Another can of worms.  I'd have to ask a question to give an answer.  What smart phone do you use/prefer the best?  If apple and you like IOS, I'd suggest going with Prusa, and buy into the whole system.  If android go with a creality ender of your size, or another free range type of printer using marlin.  That's just a connection I've made to the way people think, observing the trends on forums and youtube over the years.  YMMV, but....  I started with an Anet a6 (or 8 I can never remember) from banggood a few years back.  Decent entry level printer but finicky frame, and I was always tweaking something to get it to print right.  I then bought an elegoo mars to get into the SLA resin game, and it's been amazing, albeit temperature sensitive.  I can't print in my basement in the winter.  I've bought stuff to make an enclosure heater, just havn't got around to it yet.  .  That genre has changed a lot since my purchase, so while I'd reccomend the mars again, I'm sure there is better out there for cheaper.  It changes so fast.  

My last printer purchase was a Kingroon KP3s FDM printer.  This has been plug and play right from the box, and although it's smaller than my anet, most things I print never require that size anyway, so the anet hasn't been turned on it over a year.  I'll probably repurpose the hardware to build something else cool with the kids.  The kingroon print quality is right there with an ender (guy at work has one), and I like the stable frame and size.  It's pretty portable, and doesn't need constant tweaking to print right.  I could nit pick details about its design and build but honestly don't have much bad to say about it for the money it cost me, and the work it produces.  

As to the future of 3d printing tech, I have no idea where it will go.  I don't think it will ever truly replace machining, but it will certainly supplement it in ways we're seeing, and some we can't imagine yet.  I'm just really exploring the opportunities to utilize it in my own shop more in the casting dept and it's been mind blowing how useful it has been on just the few projects I've done so far.  See my recent thread on the subject for details.  Lost resin SLA is something I want to pursue shortly as I build up and buy the equipment necessary for that.  

 I'm jealous of your flight sim  setup.  Our internet at home is very pricey (bell LTE), and I'm currently waiting for starlink to open up more spots in my cell so that I can dive into that world of sim rigs.  I really want to get into Iracing (as an ex motorcycle racer), and flight sims too.  I was never much of a gamer, but did enjoy my racing games.  Cheaper, and crashes don't hurt as much.  Being able to predict the weather is a fun party trick, but I'd rather not have that superpower. 

As for tech savvyness, you've certainly got me beat.  I'm really a troglodyte when it comes to computers and tech.  I know enough to get by, but it ends there.  Without the internet and the ability to search out problems and solutions I wouldn't be where I am today.  It's an incredible time in human history to have the entire collection of human knowledge in your pocket.  It's a shame most just use it to share catvideos and dumb dance videos on tik tok.  But what do I know, they probably make more $ than I do.  Nobody would pay to see a fat middle aged balding man dance around to hip hop anyway lol.  

Now, to answer your last question.  I use a large mix of software.  At work it's mechanical desktop, rhino, and Solidworks for CAD, edgecam and notepad for CAM.  At home and for personal projects I use the above, as well as fusion, and more recently the last few projects I've tried in freecad, although I'm not sold on it just yet.  It's decent, but, it's....a free package that isn't as polished as others that I am used to.  Big potential, but it all takes time and money to develop.  Still searching for the perfect solution to all problems, but one doesn't exist.  I still build a lot of things sans prints or designs just neuro cad, and the materials on hand dictating their dimensions and fit.  I might just buy a seat of Keycreator for personal and professional use, as out of all the cad systems I've use over the years, that's the one that plugged into my brain the best, and would tick most boxes.  I do believe they still sell a license (last I heard was $3500), and not sub only, but I'm not 100% sure.  My info is a couple years out of date and it all changes so fast.  I learned Unigraphics in college running on unix.  At the time it was $35k a seat If I remember right.  To have free options as good as they are today blows my mind.  

I stripped this out of Stevens intro thread as I wanted to reply to you, just not further drag his thread off the rails.  I think that about covered it.  Been typing this on and off all morning in my free time.  A bit windy I am at times....


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## Susquatch (Mar 29, 2022)

That was an AWESOME reply. When I didn't hear anything back, I got worried that I still got my tone wrong. Then I had to hit the highway to go visit my mother in law 2-1/2 hours down the 401 in a long term care facility. Just got home and found your reply cuz you tagged me. 

No worries about being windy. More like a hurricane on this end. 

I really really really love that you stripped this out of Steven's intro thread. I've done that sometimes too, but it isn't easy and you often risk losing everyone else in the process. 

I am definitely old. I retired 15 years ago. But there are older folks than me on here. Nonetheless, I believe in my heart of hearts that I love change. I would even go as far as to say that I actually pursue it. Not for change sake, but rather for the positive outcomes. Continuous improvement is always a worthy goal. But beyond that, it has been said that only way that anything can stay the same is if everything else changes around it. Change is generally a very good thing. 

My world has been automotive too. Mostly large OEM R&D, but over the course of 35 years, many other aspects from manufacturing, to construction, to regulatory. When the product is as complex as a vehicle and the systems required to build it and test it, rapid prototyping was a giant leap forward. I could probably talk about it for days. But suffice to say it cut years off the process. It was a terrific way to reduce errors - especially intergroup errors. And as I mentioned before, it facilitated global development programs.


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## Susquatch (Mar 29, 2022)

I'm gunna take a while to digest your software and printer recommendations. 

PC and Android here all the way. 

I laugh at my own jokes all the time. No idea why others don't find me as ridiculous or as funny as I find myself......


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## Dan Dubeau (Mar 29, 2022)

Congrats on your retirement.  Automotive too,  you beat the game, well done.  I hope to get there someday too, but still have at least 15 to go (i'll be 40 this year).  

I just had an opportunity to get in with an oem in the r&d dept, but turned it down.  Jobs like that just aren't what they used to be, and it was a bit of a step backwards/sideways from where I'm at now, but I'm still not sure I made the right decision.  Would have been different though.  Change for the sake of change I guess. No pension, or even rrsp contributions anymore, just a contract hire, made obsolete whenever the #'s in column b show red in a spreadsheet.  If you got out 15 years ago, you rode the perfect wave to shore.  Not sure what the future holds for automotive manufacturing, or how or if I'm going spend the rest of my career in it.  The future isn't as clear as it used to be and the only thing I'm sure of is that I'll have to change and adapt to stick around, same as I've done so far.  

I still remember the very first rapid part I held.  Was a door hinge we were building a check fixture for.  I was not warned about how brittle it was (powder part).  I was being told just how long it took to print about the same time it became a multi piece Puzzle in my bear paws.  That was about 17-18 years ago.  They've come a long way since then lol.  

If you're a PC and android guy I'd say go the marlin route.  An ender 3 is like the chevy cavalier of the 3d printer world.  Not the best, not the worst, just a decent daily driver available reletively cheap.  Parts everywhere, and seems like everybody is driving one.  I don't have one, but know 3 people with them (2 bought on my recommendation) that are very happy with them.  Lots of help on line for any problems you might run into, and usually about 15 youtube videos to walk you through any problem you could think of.  That's the thing that blows me away with this stuff (and most stuff now) is just the collection of knowledge out there available, for free, not much tribal knowledge.   That being said, they're ALL cheaply constructed.   It's adequate for the price point and job they need to do, but don't be expecting a finely machined and well engineered machine no matter the manufacture.  Stuff wears out, but upgrades are available for every part.  There are people out there that really only print, printers, or upgrades for their printers, or so it seems anyway.  

I've watched a few youtube videos of guys printing parts for their sim rigs.  Dash panels, button boxes, etc.  Not sure how into modifying and building that stuff you are, but the uses are endless.


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## Susquatch (Mar 30, 2022)

Unless you really wanted the experience, or really liked that job, I think you made the right call. But I actually prefer contract over direct. Here I am at 75 and my pension is NOT secure. If I had funded it myself, it would be bullet proof. Believe it or not, the banks and other entities have more rights to my pension than I do even though it was a part of my compensation. The good news is that I had a rule. Put 20% of every raise or promotion or job change I ever got away. Over time my savings kept growing and growing. After 35 years, I had my own pension. Doing it when you got a raise meant you didn't feel it. So the family standard of living went up to the tune of 80%, but my savings grew proportionately bigger too. The trouble with working for a huge corporation is exactly what you said. You are just a number on a beancounter's spreadsheet. Doesn't matter if you are contract or direct. And just so you know, corporations have changed. Nobody gets pensions anymore. My kids are all older than you. None of them have a pension and I tell all of them the same thing I just told you - look after yourself. 

Powder eh..... I don't remember that. My first exposure was paper layered. Those parts were pretty robust. Then came stereo lithography - Laser hardened resin. they were less robust but MUCH faster! Maybe that's what you mean. (yellowish translucent parts?) even so, only really thin parts were fragile. But ya, they did break on occasion. 

The next evolution was ABS thread. (solid white or black). That's the technology that became the foundation of affordable 3D printing for the masses. But at the time it was a massive machine in its own clean room...... 

So, if I understand what you are saying, I already missed the boat. They already make 3D printers you can run from an android! I MUST KNOW MORE! 

And what about the 3D Cad software to design the part? Did I miss that boat too? 

RE - Flight Simulator. I have an old (very old) joystick and throttle with a dozen programmable buttons on it. That's as much modding as I'll ever do.


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## StevSmar (Mar 30, 2022)

You can do quite a lot with the free version of Fusion360, here’s my Hawker Hurricane modelling project:














I don’t know anything about how to take a model and have it printed though.

The above was done on my Core i7(?) Dell XPS Laptop, it gets bogged down when I get too many parts in the assembly model but apart from when I put everything together, performance is fine.


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## Susquatch (Mar 30, 2022)

Janger said:


> Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists. There are a few restrictions but nothing to worry about. You do need a decent computer. 16gb of ram but that is not expensive these days.



Hey @Janger.

I have seen that said elsewhere, but it isn't what I see. I see limitations on the number of files you can use. I've also seen others talking about a coming bait N switch. I'm not thrilled with either outcome.

What other restrictions are there? 

Do you happen to know if Fusion 360 can run on an android phone?


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## Janger (Mar 30, 2022)

In Fusion as a hobbyist you can only have 10 active designs going at a time. That would deter a professional but just look at what @StevSmar is doing! Wow that's really cool. People complain too much in my opinion. It's a very powerful tool with many millions invested in it. I use it all the time and I pay every year. Why do people expect to get this for free? Do you work for free? Anyway you can export a .stl file which the 3d printer silcers take as input. Then 3d print. Simple enough process. The alternatives to fusion are either super duper expensive or open source and challenging to use. I want to be productive and don't have time to waste on opensource buggy platforms. Maybe Freecad has improved a lot from 5 years ago when I picked Fusion to work with. When Fusion changed their hobbyist model to be more restrictive I looked into the alternatives, solid works, bobcad. Nobody would even get back to me on a cost. If you have to ask you can't afford it. There are one or two alternatives, join some airplane group, and you can get solidworks cheap. I think @PeterT might be doing that. I see on this review of various cad packages there is a solid works hobbyist package - I imagine it would have some restrictions too.









						13 Best CAD Software of 2023 (Ranked and Compared)
					

In this guide, I rank and review the best CAD software on the market based on features, use cases, price and more.




					www.adamenfroy.com
				




In the review he mentions sketchup. That would probably work for a lot of the kind of work we get up to. No CAM and CNC tools though. I want those so Fusion makes sense - CAM is included! If I didn't have Fusion I don't know what I would do for CNC programming. Write it by hand? Like writing programs in assembler. You can. Do you want to? MasterCam, Gibbs Cam, any of those would be thousands per year. All in all I think Fusion is a great package, not bug free, I have a support call  in right now. But there is nothing else as good at this price point. Will autodesk make it more restrictive in the future? Maybe they will. I'll deal with that then. For now it's good. I consider it good value and I'm happy to pay the $600 year it costs me. Like my accountant. It's money well spent as the alternatives are unpalatable.

Fusion on the phone? Well sort of - there is an iPhone viewer where I can look at designs. No editing...  I suspect there is an android version.


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## Susquatch (Mar 31, 2022)

Janger said:


> People complain too much in my opinion. It's a very powerful tool with many millions invested in it. I use it all the time and I pay every year. Why do people expect to get this for free? Do you work for free?



I very rarely use free software. They have to make money somehow so free stuff is usually riddled with advertizing or some other equally distasteful characteristic. I almost always pay for the full version. I fully appreciate that the authors need to be paid (or rewarded in some way) for their work. 

But I confess that I think $600 a year to be totally unreasonable for a hobbies like me. Unless the user is making money using it, $600 a year is $7000 over 10 years - for software!  $100 - yes.  $600 - no.  

But I have no idea what value you get out of it. I'd have zero problems with paying that for a workstation seat in a design shop. The fact is that I paid WAY more than that for Catia seats. I'm not good at remembering numbers, but I seem to recall paying over 10 grand per seat per year 15 years ago. Mind you, that's Catia not Fusion. Maybe Fusion has changed a lot, but I doubt it has the stress, thermal, dynamic, and fluid flow capabilities of Catia. A lot can change in 15 years though. Maybe. I'm wrong about that. Besides, not everyone needs those capabilities or would have the slightest clue how to use them even if they did! 

What I do know is that I am retired and farming now. Even 600 a year is simply way too expensive for how much I would use it. I don't even like using a computer anymore! I much prefer pen and paper or my smartphone. 

For most businesses, the tools they use have to pay for themselves over time. For most hobbiest's the best we can hope for is value and enjoyment. I'm not in your camp on this one John. I'd never get enough value or enjoyment out of Fusion to pay that much for it. 

So that means I'd have to go the freeware route. Does that mean ads? 

You also mention an active drawing limit. What does that really mean? It seems artificial with a million ways around it - either that or overly restrictive. It wouldn't work at all if it's 10 saves. But I could easily save files and rename them or move them to keep the total number down. Or perhaps save parts together in one design with multiple (or variable) print views. Which I really don't like either! I'd rather pay for a reduced capabity system of some kind - eg no solids - just surfaces, or a file size limit, or a complexity limit, or a number of elements limit, or or or. 

I confess that I'm also afraid of a bait and switch scheme. I'd hate to invest the learning time into something that suddenly switches to an expensive subscription leaving me high and dry. 

Yes, I am aware of the android "viewers". I got a copy of my field tile layout from the drainage company and I use that on my android phone in the field to locate tiles and do repairs and modifications. That would be pretty useless for the machine shop. I'm looking for something that frees me from the tyranny of a desktop computer. Perhaps even cloud based like the full featured Microsoft Office Suite and many others. Maybe I'm crazy, but I consider desk top computers to be old school. In my mind, the future is literally in my mind. Perhaps a device in my pocket that projects and manages objects in my head that I can modify at warp speed just by thinking about it! 

I'll prolly be dead before that happens. But I have zero doubt that it will. It's not if, it's only when. 

For the time being, I want it in my hand to use whenever and wherever I am.


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## StevSmar (Mar 31, 2022)

The assembly model I posted images of above has probably 50 models referenced into it. So the 10 active (editable) models is not that much of a hinderance. Other restrictions of the “free” version are:
- (based on what I from about 3/4 of a year ago)
- Only 1 page drawings can be made.
- Only two axis (or three axis?) CAM.
- no edit in place (you can’t edit a model that’s been referenced into a assembly model, while in the assembly model).
- Only STL exporting.
- (Plus other features)
(Of course there is always the risk that AutoDesk will reduce further the functionality of their free version)

For my hobby, which is modelling only, the free version is fine.

If I was actively using Fusion360 then I’d pay for a license. The model above represents probably 300-500 hours of bliss over a couple of years? So I have no problem paying AutoDesk $2 to $5 per hour for the fun I’ve been having. (I’m not actively playing with my Hurricane model, because I’ve not got a lathe…(and other projects)).

Normally at the end of each year there is a special that has quite a discount. @Janger I‘m interested in knowing if once you have a subscription whether there are also discounts when you renew?

My recommendation is to start out with the free version. Once you learn how to use it then make the decision  on whether this is something that makes sense to go to the paid version.

You will (likely) need a decent computer, don’t forget the 3D mouse which I find essential (I use the 3Dconnexion space mouse navigator (the basic wired mouse that doesn’t appear to be available any more)
(I pretty much bought a new laptop just to start playing with Fusion, Fusion will probably run fine on a slower computer, especially when you’re starting out and your models aren’t that complicated)


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## Susquatch (Mar 31, 2022)

Ok, I'll give it a whirl - cautiously.

I refuse to put it on my desktop. But I'm pretty sure I have an i7 laptop around here somewhere that should run it.

I'll have to use extreme self control to prevent my Catia experience from poisoning me. 

Do you know if it can import 2D drawings from FastCad/EasyCad?


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## Dabbler (Mar 31, 2022)

I have tried 6 different CAD programs as a novice, including Fusion 360.  My experience has been ,well, not so good.

All of it is my fault.  I was trying to run on a 8GB i5 2600 with poor heat sink.  Even Fusion360 behaves erratically.  You need at least 32 GB to run Fusion *well*, even though I've heard the 16GB recommendation regularly.  Win 10 takes too much memory nowadays (not to mention the super memory hog Winn11)

Given those constraints, and help from the crew here, Fusion 360 seems to be the way to go.

On the freeware front, no ads, no mess, but I have found several packages too buggy for my use the worst offender being Freecad.  I cannot get through a model before losing it.


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## StevSmar (Mar 31, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> …You need at least 32 GB to run Fusion *well*, even though I've heard the 16GB recommendation regularly.…


On Win10, I was thinking of upgrading from 16Gb and  installing 32Gb, but after looking at my system resources I was only at about 50% memory usage. So I decided to stick with 16Gb and get 32 on my next laptop upgrade in a few years time.



Susquatch said:


> …I'll have to use extreme self control to prevent my Catia experience from poisoning me.…


That’s going to be the most frustrating part. It took me a long time to unlearn my AutoCAD memory and translate it to Fusion 360… Even two years later I’d sometimes slip back to using an AutoCAD keyboard command…

(One other option is if you’re a member of EAA, you can get a free license of Solidworks. I don’t know the functionality of that version and the risks it will one day become un-free. I was already too far along the Fusion 360 path and I reasoned that if either the free Solidworks or Fusion 360 went away, I’d much rather be in the Fusion 360 camp since it’s non-discounted license was less costly).


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## Dabbler (Mar 31, 2022)

@StevSmar I may be running a lot of stuff in the background that you aren't.  At any given time I'm over 100 active processes.  VPN, antivirus, firewall, active application monitoring, etc.


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## PeterT (Mar 31, 2022)

Janger said:


> There are one or two alternatives, join some airplane group, and you can get solidworks cheap. I think @PeterT might be doing that. I see on this review of various cad packages there is a solid works hobbyist package - I imagine it would have some restrictions too.


Re SW,  by airplane group you likely mean the EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association). If you were an EAA member (which I understand was quite inexpensive), you were able to get a Solidworks seat for free or some nominal, token value. The only other price reduction deals were active student (in accredited program at accredited institution) or military veteran. I believe in all cases they rigorously validated your claimed status, it wasn't just a check box on the order form.

My understanding is this all changed the past year when they introduced their SW Maker version. This has been discussed elsewhere but to summarize, the aforementioned deals are dead or about to be & will be replaced by the Maker version. It might be a viable mode for some, but some details are sill dangling in the wind. Its inexpensive (like 100USD). AFAIK the program executables are still resident on your PC. So are the files but the dirty little secret seems to be you first upload them to their cloud platform. So aside form the collaboration warm & fuzzy talk, is also the mechanism by which they embed a tag of some sort. And that why they don't care if you save on your PC, which is different than other (but not all) cloud based apps. ie. the files would only load if you were paid up & they have control. Personally I don't find this as onerous as other apps where everything is resident on the cloud & essentially working off the cloud. The only other SW stipulation were Makers were defined as having less than some $ revenue cap which would be totally fine for any legit hobbyist. I don't think there was a SW cap to number of files or size of files or any of that.

I don't know the exact parallels of SW-Maker to Fusion free vs Fusion paid. Again, AFAIK, running SW your PC would have to be up to snuff hardware wise in order to run the program properly. Just a fact of life no matter what kind of app. Win-7 is no longer supported, only Win-10+. I think the way some programs appear to work regardless of OS or PC/Mac platform is basically they are an online app. That may be fine for certain model sizes but I can see that bogging down with more complex models or larger multi-part assemblies.


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## PeterT (Mar 31, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> On Win10, I was thinking of upgrading from 16Gb and  installing 32Gb, but after looking at my system resources I was only at about 50% memory usage. So I decided to stick with 16Gb and get 32 on my next laptop upgrade in a few years time.


When it comes to 3D-CAD at least, RAM is only one aspect of prerequisites. You also have to have an appropriate processor and graphics card. And a strong gamer card is not the same as a appropriate card for graphic processing. Unfortunately this messaging glossed over or lost even among the software vendors because if the App works, even barely on the simplest of 3D models, then technically they aren't lying. The hook is sunk & now all that's left is for you to upgrade or replace your PC as required. That doesn't cost them any money. If someone is telling you they have a screaming laptop running CAD then a) its 2D CAD which is a completely different animal & anything will run that these days b) its online app but now other factors enter the picture more related to data transfer c) its a relatively simple model and/or assembly of parts d) it really is a screaming laptop & generally costs more

Guys I know this has drifted off deep into CAD stuff which we have a specific sub-forum for.


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2022)

What Peter said.......


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## StevSmar (Mar 31, 2022)

Yes, that’s true about a graphics card, I made sure my laptop had a dedicated graphics card in addition to the on motherboard card.

Coincidentally I received this email today, summarizes some of the difference between free and paid:


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## StevSmar (Mar 31, 2022)

PeterT said:


> …My understanding is this all changed the past year when they introduced their SW Maker version….


That’s not surprising that (Full?) SolidWorks now gone away for EAA members.


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## Dan Dubeau (Mar 31, 2022)

My Lenovo p50 thinkpad is excellent for 3d cad, and programming.  It has a Quadro card, 32mb ram,  can't remember other specs as it's over a few years old now.  It was somewhere around 3k  I can't remember now.  I bought it specifically for a cad/cam consulting business that lasted exactly long enough to pay for the laptop and a nice dinner lol.  

It's not as good as my desktop at work, but it's still really pretty good.  Nice working from home on the couch with another screen on side table sometimes.  Tough to pry away from the kids watching minecraft videos these days though lol

You can get cad capable laptops, but they're not $300 at best buy.


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## Tom O (Mar 31, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Yes, that’s true about a graphics card, I made sure my laptop had a dedicated graphics card in addition to the on motherboard card.
> 
> Coincidentally I received this email today, summarizes some of the difference between free and paid:
> View attachment 22610


Just say Fusion 3 times and a ad offer will be here shortly!


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## Dan Dubeau (Mar 31, 2022)

The thing that I hate the most about fusion is the cloud.  I have expensive internet at home, I don't need to be updateing a programm all the time or storing all my files over the interet when I have free storage on my HD.  The user interface is ok.  Decent enough for almost anything the average hobbyist will ever need and more, but having all my stuff in the cloud and the cumbersome way to get around that is just annoying.  

Ironically the times that I DO use fusion (or used to, havn't much in the last few years) is because of the cloud.  If I'm working on some home projects while at work, I like having that storage where I can bounce back and forth without forgetting memory sticks.  I ended up buying a tiny metal stick that attached to my keychain though, and that has kept me away from fusion ever since.  I've wanted to give it a try for programming ever since I got the tormach, but just haven't got around to it yet.  As much as I like playing around learning new things, I sometimes hate playing around and learning new things lol.  

Last project I was using it for was some sculpting with t-splines, which was pretty cool.  Rhino 7 now has that feature too (sub d) so I might buy a copy of that in the near future.  I've always been a rhino fan since I started using it back on version 2.0.  I like command line driven and hotkey cad.  

They all offer something different for what you need.


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 31, 2022)

Such an interesting discussion.  Decades ago I really couldn't comprehend AutoCAD.  Then for hobby use, while living in The Netherlands, I tried Turbo CAD which although seemed cheap didn't work well and the price slowly escalated.  Dumped it.

Fast forward to late early 2000 and Alibre showed up.  Now there was a CAD system that I understood and for me was almost intuitive.  Alas they sold out to a 3D printing firm which did nothing with sheet metal parts or a lot of the other CAD stuff.  Mecsoft's AlibreCAM was suspended and I ended up with dongles for both VisualCAM from MecSoft and Geomagic.  The only good part of Geomagic is it was able to import STL files.

Then Alibre designers bought it back.  MecSoft left us hanging with the integrated version essentially discontinued.  Now export as STEP, import into MecSoft VisualCAM and create the CAM stuff.  Want to change one tiny detail in the design.  ALas, scrap all the CAM work because you have re-import a new STEP which is missing all the CAM stuff you spent 4 hours doing.  Wasn't like that with the integrated version.  And Alibre can no longer import STL files.  I think Alibre and Mecsoft had some sort of falling out which really is too bad.

One option is FreeCAD which can import STL, can export STEP and STL.

Anyway, for now I'm staying with Alibre and the last integrated version of CAM that still worked and living with the occasional crash.  My software will run forever even if I don't pay them another cent.  But of course Microsoft will see to that not happening.  One tiny upgrade in the OS that breaks the code and that old software will stop working.  Which is why the WIN-7 system hasn't been upgraded in now 5 years at least.


----------



## PeterT (Mar 31, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> My Lenovo p50 thinkpad is excellent for 3d cad, and programming.  It has a Quadro card, 32mb ram,  can't remember other specs as it's over a few years old now.  It was somewhere around 3k  I can't remember now.  I bought it specifically for a cad/cam consulting business that lasted exactly long enough to pay for the laptop and a nice dinner lol.  You can get cad capable laptops, but they're not $300 at best buy.


Thanks for pointing that out Dan. Reading my post again I realized I lost my train of thought. I've gone back & appended. For sure there are some very capable & powerful laptops out there. But yes, as a general rule they cost more than the regular box PC equivalent. There is quite of bit of info on the web where people have done extensive benchmarking so you can get a good sense of what's what.


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## StevSmar (Apr 1, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> The thing that I hate the most about fusion is the cloud.…


I don’t have very fast internet at home, about 20Mb/s download and 3Mb/s upload. It’s never been frustrating. Updating to a new version of Fusion takes maybe 2 minutes.

But I too am a little apprehensive about trusting my models to a big company…

If AutoDESK ever changes their policies and makes online storage capacity part of a subscription cost, then I’ll be paying for Fusion360 for one month and exporting all my models. Until then, I’m thankful they are providing me with this backup service for free!


----------



## Dan Dubeau (Apr 1, 2022)

I only have bell 4g/lte internet at home.  About 5mps/down, less than 1 up.  It's also expensive.  About $150-600/month, depending on overages it can get really pricey.....  No other good options at the moment until starlink gets here, which I've been waiting on with a deposit down since last feb.   Site says mid 2022, but i've been bumped once before so..... It can't get here soon enough.

 I could go with explornet....rather not.  We "could" put up a large tower to get line of sight too, but that is expensive.  It was never that bad until all this work, and school from home stuff.....

Needlesly throwing large files up into the cloud is a waste of data for me, when I have other options.  I'll probably use fusion more when I get starlink.  As i want to try out the CAM side.


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## Susquatch (Apr 2, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I don’t have very fast internet at home, about 20Mb/s download and 3Mb/s upload. It’s never been frustrating. Updating to a new version of Fusion takes maybe 2 minutes.
> 
> But I too am a little apprehensive about trusting my models to a big company…
> 
> If AutoDESK ever changes their policies and makes online storage capacity part of a subscription cost, then I’ll be paying for Fusion360 for one month and exporting all my models. Until then, I’m thankful they are providing me with this backup service for free!



The reason for my laughter is your definition of not very fast internet at home. You should try living on a farm. I would die to have 20M download. I pay for an advertized 10 but I'm lucky to get 1M on a day when all the kids are in school. When the rug rats are home, I might get 200K.

But I started with teletype and worked my way through 300 baud, 1200 baud, 9.6K, DSL, etc. All my kids in town have fibre and laugh at me.

My flight Sim desktop would easily run whatever Cad software is out there, but I ain't doing it. I've used every version of flight Simulator since it was first sold on 5-1/4" floppies. When MSFS 2020 arrived, all I could do was drool because nothing I had would run it. The computer, a curved 4K monitor, and the program were a Christmas gift from the whole family. Even so, I am severely restricted by my slow internet. One of the most significant program improvements is the scenery. It's live streamed from Bing maps data. It is sooooo cool to be able to land on my own farm laneway...... 

At my internet speeds, I have to stop the flight to let the scenery catch up.

Updates often take several days to download. I spend more time updating than flying!

Ya, I built my first pc before there were any. I understand the issues as well as anyone. I have an ongoing love/hate relationship with the computing world.

But you guys have convinced me to give it a whirl.  I am going to strip and load a clean copy of Windows 11 onto a gaming laptop and then hope that it will run Fusion with nothing else on it.

In an attempt to keep myself happy, I may also install a mirroring program so I can run the laptop from my phone over my home network. If (and only if) that works, I will come back and review 3D Printer Options.

I accept that my rural living choice might preclude me from doing anything more than a slow google search.....


----------



## StevSmar (Apr 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> The reason for my laughter is your definition of not very fast internet at home….


I didn’t even notice the context of your laughter. Like my introduction said, I’m a little slow…

0.2Mb/s download…OMG, that must be painful. It’s bringing back memories of the gentle music of dial up modems, when the internet was young and fresh and to splurge was installing 1Mb of RAM…

My first computer was called a Memoteck(?), programs were recorded on an audio cassette. Rewind to the beginning, zero the cassette players counter and then fast forward to where the program was supposed to start. Boy, I sound like an old fart.


Susquatch said:


> …But you guys have convinced me to give it a whirl.  I am going to strip and load a clean copy of Windows 11 onto a gaming laptop and then hope that it will run Fusion with nothing else on it…


Good luck!!!!
(My computer is not yet(?) on the eligible list for a Windows 11 “upgrade”… )


----------



## Janger (Apr 2, 2022)

I had a trs80 with cassette too. I can just hear the noise of the programs. Memory lane thanks!


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## Susquatch (Apr 2, 2022)

In the beginning there was only handloaded programs. You wrote them, created a hex list on paper, and entered one byte of the program at a time into memory. Then along came cassettes. But you still had to hand load a loader that was needed to read the cassettes. That was the first boot loader. Then came PROMs that you could burn the loader into. Then EPROMS you could change. Things moved into hyper drive then!

I'm so surprised to find so many old geeks running machines today. Sorta feels like it was destiny for us. "Old geeks don't retire, they just get old and become machinists".  Who would have guessed?

But seriously, why so many of us here? Was being a computer pioneer a training ground for future machinists?


----------



## Janger (Apr 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> In the beginning there was only handloaded programs. You wrote them, created a hex list on paper, and entered one byte of the program at a time into memory. Then along came cassettes. But you still had to hand load a loader that was needed to read the cassettes. That was the first boot loader. Then came PROMs that you could burn the loader into. Then EPROMS you could change. Things moved into hyper drive then!
> 
> I'm so surprised to find so many old geeks running machines today. Sorta feels like it was destiny for us. "Old geeks don't retire, they just get old and become machinists".  Who would have guessed?
> 
> But seriously, why so many of us here? Was being a computer pioneer a training ground for future machinists?


That is strange so many of us are IT geeks.


----------



## jcdammeyer (Apr 2, 2022)

Janger said:


> That is strange so many of us are IT geeks.


No idea.  I know people that were big into computers and weren't interested in the machining side of things.  And the opposite too.  
Eventually I moved up to a new Z80 CPU board that had 256K RAM still running CP/M-80 but with a paging approach that allowed much bigger programs and data sets.  I've ported CP/M-86, MP/M-86 and OS9-68K to systems.

But it was working in The Netherlands on Trim & Form machines (bends and trims the leads on ICs) that introduced me to some amazing machinist and machines.  From there one might say the rest is history.  When we came back and moved to Victoria in 1994 the Internet was only just starting.  rec.crafts.metalworking was the place to exchange ideas.  And finding Dave Gingery's books in the local library allowed me to realize a foundry, metal lathe and so on...

Computers still paid the bills though.  Like that set of rings in my avatar.


----------



## StevSmar (Apr 3, 2022)

@Susquatch , I'm just having to renew my Fusion 360 Personal License, instructions for doing this are here:




__





						How to renew a start up/personal license for Fusion 360 | Fusion 360 | Autodesk Knowledge Network
					

You want to renew a free startup or personal license for Fusion 360. When your current license is about to expire, you may see an "Expired: Subscribe" or "Subscribe Now" message like this: Free startup licenses for Fusion 360 are valid for one year, but can be renewed annually (application is...




					knowledge.autodesk.com
				




I played a little with computers in high school (not at school, via the computer I bought and played with at home). When I was studying for my Electrical Engineering degree programming was taught, first Fortran, then Pascal. I think it was in year 3 of university that we did assembly programming (theoretically, there was no running it on a computer). There was a PDP-11 in one of the computer labs that had toggle switches for programming it in machine code. Pity I didn't try programming it.
I don't consider myself an IT geek, although I enjoyed programming I've got so many other hobbies that I don't need to add another to the list. Perhaps that will change when I retire...?


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## Dan Dubeau (Apr 3, 2022)

The extent of my computer "programming" growing up was playing with a commodore 64 as a kid, then some Unix stuff in college.  I've always been more of a mechanical guy.  But can get kinda trudge my way through stuff once in a while.  Curious by nature though, i started playing around with arduinos a few years ago with some projects in mind.  Eventually I may even get back to them and finish it .  My 9yo Son got an arduino kit for christmas this year, and has been playing around with it a bit.  He LOVES coding, and it's his favourite subject in school, so if I play my cards right he might finish the arduino projects for me .


----------



## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

I just powered up an ancient WIN-95 running on a 486DX100 with 32MB of RAM.   Think it's time to scrap it.  Just taking up space.  Even the Colorado Tape drive can't read most of the old backup tapes.  The web browser can get out there but no one will really talk to it because it doesn't have the security aspects.  Not even sure if there is a firefox for it.


----------



## Tom O (Apr 3, 2022)

My first computer


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

Here's a stack of two S100 systems that I still have.  The bottom one is an ERG-68K with MC68000 micro-processor and CPM-68K hard drive and 5.25" floppy.  The upper one is an Intersystems Z80 system with paging CPU for RAM drive and data base extension.  Two 8" floppy drives.

The last time I tried to boot the Ithica I think the 8" floppies would no longer read.  Haven't tried the CPM-68K.  They've sat in the same place since 1997.


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

The old 486DX100 sure had a lot of boards.  Serial Mouse.  Round keyboard connector. Separate board for disk drives, Video, Network, Parallel port, and a Soundblaster card that also ran the CDROM


----------



## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

Oh and then there's this one, a CPM-86 system with an 80186 CPU.  That was like an 16 bit 8086 processor but also had serial ports and other I/O built into the CPU.  More like what we see nowadays.

Think most of this will be in recycling by the end of the week.  Just not worth the time.


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Think most of this will be in recycling by the end of the week. Just not worth the time.



When you talk about pitching it, a big part of me wants to go hide somewhere and cry. 

So many memories. 

I think those of us here who helped Pioneer all this stuff made a big difference in our day. If not for early adopters like us, computers might never have grown to be the big business they are now and we would all still be using mechanical calculators and slide rules. I have no idea what the critical mass was at the time, but I'll bet it was a very fine line. 

Beer/wine/booze/pop is on me if you want to join me.


----------



## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> When you talk about pitching it, a big part of me wants to go hide somewhere and cry.
> 
> So many memories.
> 
> ...


Makes me sad too which is why I keep all that junk.  For example, the 486DX100 served me very well with both WIN-3.1 and then WIN-NT before I upgraded to WIN-95 where then it slowed down.  But now, for $50 (when they are available) a Raspberry Pi4 will do more faster.


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Makes me sad too which is why I keep all that junk.  For example, the 486DX100 served me very well with both WIN-3.1 and then WIN-NT before I upgraded to WIN-95 where then it slowed down.  But now, for $50 (when they are available) a Raspberry Pi4 will do more faster.



Just a suggestion.....

About 10 years ago, I bought a networked file server that I used to store all the data for the family and my consulting business after retiring. It had Raid backup built in and ran on a proprietary version of Linux.

About a year later, it crapped the bed. I soon discovered that raid is wonderful IF a hard drive craps out but its USELESS if the raid controller itself craps out. What a F&<[g disaster! I spent MONTHS rebuilding the file allocation table and then the files. In the end I got as much back as was worth getting back, but I vowed NEVER to trust RAID (of any type) again.

In the end, I used an old desktop that ran Windows XP (which I still think was the best Windows EVER - Windows 7 was good too) and installed multiple hard disks with separate controllers to effectively build my own file server. And I later added plain network storage to do backups the old fashioned way.

You get the idea. That old machine of yours is probably plenty fast enough to become an excellent local backup system or a great file server.  Best of all, you probably understand how it works way better than these stupid Windows 11 systems.


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## Dabbler (Apr 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> but its useless if the raid controller itself craps out.


I ran a Windows 10 file server using hardware RAID using a very expensive RAID controller.  After 5 months the RAID controller wouldn't talk to one of the disk banks.  The disks were fine.  The controller crapped out.   -- 3.5TB of data lost. (almost).  After dickering with it for a while and using a IR camera, I found the faulty component (proprietary, of course,  not fixable or replaceable, of course).  I went back to the manufacturer, and they'd replace it on warranty, but then all my data would be gone... permanently.

So by using a cooling spray ( the component was overheating)   and copying the data to a portable hard drive, 100 MB at a time, and shutting the machine off for a day, then doing it again,  in just over 2 months later I had 90% of my data back. 

I'll never RAID again. 

I now use QNAP servers and manually back up to 2 other QNAPs, but now I have 24TB and need a week to do the copy.  Still 100% better that RAID and I always have 2 copies of the data at any time.  BTW  Windows craps out around 8TB, so I break the copies into 4 separate segments)  Yes I have 72 TB of disks for 24 TB of data.

No I don't use rsync.  No I don't use the QNAP built in copy function.  I have a very bad history with those.  I had to fix clients UNIX systems that had a rsync crap out.  I still need counseling for the PTSD.   I'm a Luddite now.


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## StevSmar (Apr 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> About a year later, it crapped the bed.


That sucks, glad you were able to get most of your data back.

I used to be so careful with backups, lately there’s a small voice inside me thinking: “Wouldn’t it be nice to lose all this data and start again…” (I have the photos backed up online…)


Susquatch said:


> …understand how it works way better than these stupid Windows 11 systems.


Now it’s my turn to chuckle…


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I ran a Windows 10 file server using hardware RAID using a very expensive RAID controller.  After 5 months the RAID controller wouldn't talk to one of the disk banks.  The disks were fine.  The controller crapped out.   -- 3.5TB of data lost. (almost).  After dickering with it for a while and using a IR camera, I found the faulty component (proprietary, of course,  not fixable or replaceable, of course).  I went back to the manufacturer, and they'd replace it on warranty, but then all my data would be gone... permanently.
> 
> So by using a cooling spray ( the component was overheating)   and copying the data to a portable hard drive, 100 MB at a time, and shutting the machine off for a day, then doing it again,  in just over 2 months later I had 90% of my data back.
> 
> ...



When anyone around me mentions how wonderful Raid is, I start twitching...... It is the stupidest technology ever invented. A friend of mine makes fake teeth and keeps all his data on raid servers. I tried telling him it was a huge problem waiting to happen. He insisted it was awesome and told me about losing several disks and not even skipping a beat. Then he lost a controller....... He couldn't do what you did. And he couldn't pay me enough to do it for him either. Boy was he pissed. Worse, he figures it was my fault for not taking a baseball bat to his head!


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I used to be so careful with backups, lately there’s a small voice inside me thinking: “Wouldn’t it be nice to lose all this data and start again…” (I have the photos backed up online…)



I'm jealous. At farm internet speeds, I can't even think about cloud based storage.


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

I'm still using 2006 Windows Home Server.  It's become a bit unreliable, I think because the WIN-7 disk is now too big and it doesn't do well with more than a 2 TByte drive.  I have the newer WHS given to me by a friend.  It couldn't work with my WIN-7 laptop but did with the WIN-7 workstation.  Now I'm typing this on a WIN-10 HP ZBook which is backed up every night by the 2006 WHS.

Anyway, periodically I have to reset the home server.  The network access fails during a backup.  Really should upgrade to the newer WHS.  

The key thing about WHS which doesn't exist with the other backup systems is that if the hard drive on the PC fails, you replace it, then insert the CD and boot from it.  It goes out and finds the server.  Then asks which system you want to restore.  A few hours later the new hard drive is a perfect copy of the original failed one down to the registry and keys for locked programs.

Microsoft doesn't make it anymore.  Sadly.


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> It goes out and finds the server. Then asks which system you want to restore. A few hours later the new hard drive is a perfect copy of the original failed one down to the registry and keys for locked programs.
> 
> Microsoft doesn't make it anymore. Sadly.



I assume you mean searches the cloud. ..... 

That would never work for me. 

Why do all these outfits get rid of the good stuff and replace it with crap! 

Can't you make your own backup system that simply clones hard drives?


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## StevSmar (Apr 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Can't you make your own backup system that simply clones hard drives?


I use a Synology NAS system, I’ve been thinking of putting a second hard disc into it but have rationalled that it would be unlikely to loose the laptop and the NAS at the same time (I can’t imagine using rotating off site storage for the information I’ve collected… it’s just not that important to me anymore)


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I assume you mean searches the cloud. .....
> 
> That would never work for me.
> 
> ...


That would take too long and too much space.  Overnight there are only so many hours.  I believe the system works like this:
1. Examines the drive for files that have changed or been added since the last time.
2. Creates a list of those sectors and saves them.

Now:
1. When you realize you just deleted a file you then run the WHS console.  
2. Select the machine.
3. Select the back up date
4. Select the volume.

What it does is create a Z: drive on your PC that links to a mirror of your C: drive as it was on 24/03/2022.  I believe it does that by recreating the image of the drive based on the sectors that have been changed.






On my WHS I also have a server drive which has photos, music, copies of the projects folder etc.  That I back up to a USB connected hard drive every once in a while if I've added things to that server drive.


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I use a Synology NAS system, I’ve been thinking of putting a second hard disc into it but have rationalled that it would be unlikely to loose the laptop and the NAS at the same time (I can’t imagine using rotating off site storage for the information I’ve collected… it’s just not that important to me anymore)



Another different friend of mine uses the Synology system too. Near as I can tell it suffers the same weakness as my Linux system did - proprietary disk controller. Hence my suggestion to use a standard controller and standard disk structure. 

I agree that the likelyhood of losing both is low. Not that it can't happen, but as long as there is no interdependency, it is low. And ya, I'm not storing anything on the cloud at rural data speeds. 

I keep a lot of data that I wouldn't want to lose. So my system is setup to do rotating system wide backups at night using local storage. I also keep, a separate storage unit out in the barn in case something ever happened in the house. It's almost as good as off-site storage.


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> That would take too long and too much space.  Overnight there are only so many hours.  I believe the system works like this:
> 1. Examines the drive for files that have changed or been added since the last time.
> 2. Creates a list of those sectors and saves them.
> 
> ...



I considered a system like that too. I guess I just wasnt comfy with something like sector based comparisons. Mind you, that's fresh out of manually rebuilding a 2TB raid system sector by sector. I just went straight to copying changed file content on a regular basis and entire disks on a monthly basis.  The file server part of my home network is separately routed and hardwired so it's plenty fast enough to do that.


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## Degen (Apr 8, 2022)

In terms of computers, I cut my teeth on a KIM 6502 processor and 1k memory,  I manually built a 2k upgrade, on to WANG basic (extremely flexible),  HP Basic (this made all other languages easy), HP calculator Programmming and Reverse Polish Notation, Fortran, Pascal, and a couple of others.

As to cloud computing personally the initial concept seemed like a good idea however with current computers and computing powers the it is the greatest scam to waste power and control your data and ownership of programs diminishes.  We could save the worlds power consumption by 30%, if we could every close that pandoras box.

As to CAD nanocad is not bad (currently only doing 2d), CAM I'm using Intercon (Centriod) to write my G-code.  It does ok and teaches me the concepts.  As I optimism I learn the secrets, currently it has just been about getting stuff up and running.

The machine I use is for machining is a new Dell i5 laptop (meets/exceed min spec required by Centriod CNC12) with touchscreen, WIN10 (will not upgrade to WIN11) until software used is proven to be compatible by others.  This machine does not connect to the internet.





__





						Acorn CNC controller, Step and Direction 4 axis CNC Control board with ethernet communication.DIY CNC kit
					

Acorn Do-it-Yourself CNC control board for Mills,Lathes,Routers,and other Machine tools.  Mach3 replacement CNC controls for new machine tools as well as Retrofits for older NC machinery



					www.centroidcnc.com
				




One thing I have learned over the years, when starting is use best current tech you can afford, gives the best and longest future proofing, long term least headaches and lowest cost.


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## Darren (Apr 8, 2022)

Its funny to read all the comments on RAID failures. I've had my share. I used to run RAID 0 for speed. Lost a lot of data.  Anyways, I have probably 40 older drives kicking around, a bunch of controller cards, several older PC's from years past, and was just thinking this morning that I should toss together a backup server, maybe 2 of them and backup as much data as I can in an organized manner. I won't be running any type of RAID array thats for sure.


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## DPittman (Apr 8, 2022)

I find it intriguing that so many hobby machinists on this forum are also experienced computer programmers/nerds.  
I unfortunately do not have any of those talents and ironically I am probably younger than many of those that do.


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## Chicken lights (Apr 8, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I find it intriguing that so many hobby machinists on this forum are also experienced computer programmers/nerds.
> I unfortunately do not have any of those talents and ironically I am probably younger than many of those that do.


Agreed! Some of these old codgers are pretty sharp


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## Susquatch (Apr 8, 2022)

Darren said:


> Its funny to read all the comments on RAID failures. I've had my share. I used to run RAID 0 for speed. Lost a lot of data. Anyways, I have probably 40 older drives kicking around, a bunch of controller cards, several older PC's from years past, and was just thinking this morning that I should toss together a backup server, maybe 2 of them and backup as much data as I can in an organized manner. I won't be running any type of RAID array thats for sure.



Another option that I've been kicking around for a while now is to rebuild two desktops with huge disk capacity and use them for network storage and to duplicate each other. I suppose I could also put one of the two into the shop which is on the same home network (high speed gateway) to provide fire redundancy.


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 8, 2022)

I joined a facebook group for S-100 computers last week.  It's really quite amazing how many people that are out there who still like to play with the old hardware.    I have 3 (that were working) machines on shelves here.  And lots of extra boards from other machines.  Even a graphics array of 5 boards that did screen captures.  There's a similar set on ebay for $2K.  Original cost was almost $18K that we paid and ended up eating because the customer bailed and legal costs were higher than it was worth chasing.
CAT1600 on Ebay
http://www.autoartisans.com/S100/CAT1600-Brochure.pdf http://www.autoartisans.com/S100/CAT1600-Prices.pdf 

Here's the smallest with an 80186 processor board and DTS-520A disk controller on the far side for the Hard and floppy drives. Two serial ports out the back.  I've been thinking of reconditioning the capacitors and seeing if it still boots.  Can't find the manuals for it.


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## Susquatch (Apr 8, 2022)

Degen said:


> HP Basic (this made all other languages easy), HP calculator Programmming and Reverse Polish Notation, Fortran, Pascal, and a couple of others.



A few (very few) of the members know that I once entered an HP Calculator Programming Competition.  I programmed one of those things (an HP41CV) to play chess. Not just moves and what not, but to play strategy with as many levels of depth as you could tolerate waiting for - which was about 7 levels. That meant analysing every possible combination of moves to 7 levels. It was MUCH faster at 5 levels and played pretty darn good chess. It was also brute force - no memory of positions or famous games. Just what I called raw strategy. 

I didn't even place. Unbelievable. Guys won with stupid stuff like solving arrays, differential calculus, calculating Pi to 100 digits. 

The guys I worked with theorized that the judges either didn't believe it could actually do that or.... They never played chess and had no way of knowing what that meant. I was a VERY SORE LOSER....... That took months to write that program. As an interesting side note, I actually wrote most of the analysis and the move logistics in Fortran and then wrote a compiler to convert each line of Fortran code into HP Programming Language. 

As a young man who only needed a few hours sleep, I had a total blast. All moaning and groaning aside, it was even more fun to beat myself at the game with a program I wrote. The big difference was that the calculator didn't make stupid or emotional  moves. It just sat there relentlessly grinding away till the clock limit or the set depth was reached.


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## jcdammeyer (Apr 8, 2022)

That's impressive.  I couldn't have done that with my HP41CV which died many years ago now.  However I do still use an HP32 and have the HP apps on my phone and PC.  

Using RPN was also done in the FORTH language which was completely stack based  As an example I drew up the outline of what our new kitchen renovation would look like on an S100 graphics card I wire-wrapped using the NEC upd7220 graphics chip.  The graphics utilities were all written in FORTH.

You can just see the outline in the monitor beside my babe.  This photo is from the 70's hence the hairstyle.





And here's the graphics board front and back.


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## Susquatch (Apr 8, 2022)

Too cool! I was born big hairy and ugly. Still am. 

Still use an HP15C (a real one) and I run a clone of the HP15C on my phone and pc too. My first HP was a 35.  They were introduced the year I graduated. I used a slide rule before that. 

No pictures of any of my old computers - that I know of. Maybe the bride will find some when I die. I'm not looking now. 

Love the old green monitor. The only graphics mine did was characters arranged on the screen to look like a picture!


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## Dabbler (Apr 8, 2022)

I just gave away a DEC graphing monitor I used on a PDP9 computer in '71 and '72.  It wrote in phosphor and refreshed the image until you hit the 'erase' button. More of an XY oscilloscope than a display.


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## Degen (Apr 8, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> A few (very few) of the members know that I once entered an HP Calculator Programming Competition.  I programmed one of those things (an HP41CV) to play chess. Not just moves and what not, but to play strategy with as many levels of depth as you could tolerate waiting for - which was about 7 levels. That meant analysing every possible combination of moves to 7 levels. It was MUCH faster at 5 levels and played pretty darn good chess. It was also brute force - no memory of positions or famous games. Just what I called raw strategy.
> 
> I didn't even place. Unbelievable. Guys won with stupid stuff like solving arrays, differential calculus, calculating Pi to 100 digits.
> 
> ...


I started with the 33C (still have and use it), 41, 41C, 41CX, 41CV (still have and use it) and lastly the 41CV plus iPhone app (expensive) and use that everyday.


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## Degen (Apr 8, 2022)

Raid arrays, I run one at home for storage.  Which I back up to rotating single drives.

I've lost one drive (not raid) about 9 years ago, cost $1500 for data recovery, only one file lost.  Luck it didn't need to go to the next stage at $25 to 50k.


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## Dabbler (Apr 8, 2022)

During a particularly bad era in disk drives in the early 2000s, I lost 2 drives that needed data recovery.  Work related stuff.  The problem is that the drive and its backup were on the same machine (yeah, I know) so it required the $$$ recovery option.

With the extrnal sercers backing up to redundant machines, this seems the most reliable way to secure data, though not the cheapest...


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