# Grind lathe bed in ontario



## 05plsrt4 (Feb 7, 2022)

Is there any companies that people here know of that can re-grind a lathe bed? I live in London so the closer the better. Thanks


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 7, 2022)

Sorry can't help with that. 

But I noticed that you are in London which is only an hour from me. So I wanted to take this opportunity to welcome you to the forum and invite you to reach out for help when you need it. 

Consider putting a post in the new member introductions section and telling others a bit more about yourself.


----------



## trlvn (Feb 7, 2022)

https://www.yellowpages.ca/search/si/1/Precision+%26+Production+Grinding/Ontario+ON
		


I have no idea if any of these will even talk to you.  Please let us know how it goes.  

The 'conventional wisdom' is that re-grinding a lathe bed (and then adjusting the fit of all mating parts) is so expensive as to be impractical.  And that few shops with the equipment and experience necessary to do a good job are even willing to quote on the work since it is a relatively complex one-off job that keeps them from doing more profitable work.  But maybe the conventional wisdom is wrong?

What lathe are you looking to regrind?

Craig


----------



## Aliva (Feb 7, 2022)

surface grinding in ontario - Search
					






					www.bing.com


----------



## Mcgyver (Feb 7, 2022)

I'm interested in what comes out in this thread.  There was a chap in Kingston and another near KW iirc, but that was awhile ago.  Both were job shops envirionments that were happy to grind lathe beds, hobbyist or otherwise.  The grinding wasn't ever cheap, 1500 last time I priced it, but not prohibitive considering you are working toward a lathe that will be as new.  Maybe that has doubled now.



> The 'conventional wisdom' is that re-grinding a lathe bed (and then adjusting the fit of all mating parts) is so expensive as to be impractical



I don't disagree with that statement; however on a small lathe the fitting, scraping everything into alignment, is by far the lions share of the cost/labour and is usually done as a labour of love by its owner.  I would say if you had the money for that, you'd probably be better to buy the lowest mileage,  best shape 10ee or HLV that was out there.  

My advice is just make sure the lathe is worthy, its a lot of money, time and brain damage to recondition a machine.  Well worth it, but only if you end up with a something absolutely obrt the top fantastic.   just imo.


----------



## Mcgyver (Feb 7, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The cost to hand scrape a machine tool, particularly a lathe is as much as having it ground... because you need to acquire tools you likely dont have.  The good thing is that you can sell straight edges once you no longer need them



I have hand scraped a few beds, but grinding is the imo the only reasonable option if its a hardened bed.  The late Harry Beckley (a very talented man who chronicled some reconditioning projects on PM, search for the "the wreck") scraped a hardened 10ee bed, which still astounds me.  He's got a gold man club card.  when i've tried a carbide scraper, it barely mars the surface.

Even if not hardened, outsourcing is still an appealing option if you take into account your time.  I used to do things to in part to prove I could or because I could to save a buck....more often now I just want to get on with it.


----------



## Dabbler (Feb 7, 2022)

Ask Modern tool. If you give them just the bed, so no disassembly/assembly is required.  That is the expensive part.  The shipping and grinding will cost a lot less than them putting Tercite on your apron/saddle and scraping it in to fit.

If you are skilled, these things are easy for you.  If you are not, only very rare or valuable lathes are a candidate.


----------



## Degen (Feb 7, 2022)

I'm going to interject something here, grinders are not the only option depending how big the lathe is.

SHAPER anyone????

The second is depending on the side, hand sanding provided you have a stable and long enough enough base to sand with.

This can get you very close with a little effort.

Again depends how much you need to remove and what you are trying to achieve.

Here was the example that comes to mind of sanding, even though its a head.


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Feb 8, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Preston Rebuilt Machinery Industries.
> 
> 385 Dun Street
> Cambridge, ON,
> 519-653-2306


I looked them up - they're just down the street from me and on the opposite side of the train tracks from my metal supplier.

Having only driven by and not having stopped in, the building's appearance fits the stereotype of an old, large, industrial/fabrication/machining shop.

They're actually on Dundas St.

Update: Based on Street View, I don't think they're there anymore.  I'll actually take a drive by this morning and check.


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Feb 8, 2022)

So I was pleasantly surprised to see a small sign hanging on a fence indicating that Preston Rebuilt Machinery was located in unit 6D and stopped in to their shop.  Linda was there but Roy was on a service call (seems like a one man gig) and gave me a quick tour and a business card.  She explained that their main focus is rebuilding machines (there was a disassembled mill similar to what I perceive when someone says Bridgeport) and gave me some details that went well over my head.

Best way to contact them is by e-mail and if there's going to be questions regarding your machine/quoting that pictures be included.

Pics of their card are attached.


----------



## ThirtyOneDriver (Feb 8, 2022)

Yeah... Red/Cam Man. would be in the same complex so that would have made things easier (I don't leave my place often), but it's so close that I can integrate a visit w/ my next set of errands @TorontoBuilder.


----------



## 05plsrt4 (Feb 8, 2022)

Thanks for all the info. I have contacted these places to see if anyone was interested.


----------



## Degen (Feb 8, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Shapers in the past were certainly a goto option for flattening surfaces.  Most steam engine plans from the early to mid 1900s included machining surfaces on the shaper rather then the lathe which is the modern goto option.
> 
> The issue is fewer and fewer large shapers out there to surface long faces.
> 
> There was a thread on machining a 36" straight edge that used a 6' long rockford planer.. and a video on youtube I found a few years ago and saved... even though I will never have a large shaper


There are a few other videos online very clearly showing the advantages of shapers along with why they have sort of fallen off the radar of most machinist (unfortunately).  Same reason why scraping is better than surface grinding and the reasons why scraping is slowing disappearing.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Feb 8, 2022)

Planers are nice but they are big machines of mostly historical significance. They are not exactly (AFAIK) hobby sized machines - some smaller models did get into some very large hobby shops. 

Grinding and scraping are not mutually exclusive, both have pluses and minuses thus saying one is better then other is a bit misleading without saying "for what". Certainly scraping is much cheaper to achieve very flat surface then grinding at home shop level where labor is more or less free given high experience of such scraper. However, for modern machinery its mostly grinding that is done, it is quite cheap, can be done with hardened stuff and results can be very good. For ultra precision grinding also beats scraping - but its not like everyone has access to million dollar plus equipment. I certainly would not mind learning to scrape (or at least flake) useful skill to have but I am not planning on selling my SG as well.


----------



## Mcgyver (Feb 9, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> There was a thread on machining a 36" straight edge that used a 6' long rockford planer.. and a video on youtube I found a few years ago and saved... even though I will never have a large shaper



up until a few years ago, Standard Modern roughed the beds out on a 20' planer.  BIG machine.   After planing, they were ground on a gang wheel grinder, only one I've seen like it.  A single shaft with multiple wheels.   The wheels were spaced and dressed such that they ground all the way surfaces in one setting.  IT was large as well, could do a 20 foot bed.

Some old lathes, and some high quality ones, were just carefully planed as the final finish.  Below is a shot of my Holbrook B8 bed way before scraping; the planer marks are clearly visible.  I never thought it made a lot of sense from a tribology point of view, but as a maker, they don't get much better than Holbrook so figured I was wrong or was missing something.  The bed now is fully scraped, its less than two tenths deviation between any pairs way of way geometry over their length.


----------



## Mcgyver (Feb 9, 2022)

Keller Machine was the guy in Kingston.

No idea if they are still doing it or around.  I've not used them, but had a lot of discussions and I liked the guy.  Seemed very capable and had a good attitude - I'm fussy, and he was as or more so.  Bed comes in the day before to acclimatize, super light cuts to avoid heat build up, etc.  I did refer someone to him who needed some brake press dies ground and he thought positively of the experience.  At one point, Keller wanted me to teach his guys scraping.  I figured he was maybe 1/2 (or more) joking, but as I'd rather stick pins in my eye's, I didn't press the point lol.


----------



## trlvn (Feb 9, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> Yeah... Red/Cam Man. would be in the same complex so that would have made things easier (I don't leave my place often), but it's so close that I can integrate a visit w/ my next set of errands @TorontoBuilder.


Pretty sure Preston Rebuilt Machinery and Red / Cam Machinery are one and the same.  At least, they have exactly the same contact email (info@redcam.com).

Craig


----------



## trlvn (Feb 9, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The possibility did not come from a directory where a member stated they knew a company provided a service, but worth a shot.
> 
> Woodstock precision machinery. The list restoration services on their website.
> VISIT US​200 Universal Rd, Unit 4 Woodstock, Ontario N4S7W3
> ...


Interesting!  They have a web site and the Capabilities page mentions machine repairs and rebuilds:






						Capabilities
					

CAPABILITIES Woodstock Precision Machining Inc., an ISO 9001:2015 a certified manufacturing business is a full service product and solutions provider of custom machinery, components and fabrications to a variety of industries including transportation, medical, energy production, forestry...




					wpmachining.com
				




Craig


----------



## boilerhouse (Feb 9, 2022)

05plsrt4 said:


> Thanks for all the info. I have contacted these places to see if anyone was interested.


Please update this thread as you learn more.  Many of us would like to discover more about this type of service and first hand information would be fantastic.


----------



## Howder1951 (Feb 9, 2022)

When I was still working the "mill" purchased a re-conditioned lathe which was very nice. I think the ways were ground true and the parts running on them were re-surfaced with a glue-on material that can be scraped to fit called turcite


----------



## calgaryguy (Feb 9, 2022)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUrPSC5-obUiCaPHkcAOOeg/videos
		


Rees Atchinson has a number of videos up showing a metal planer resurfacing lathe beds, etc. Who knows as to the quality of the finished product, but interesting to watch...


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 9, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Yah know, in hindsight I have one more recommendation. You are in London. It is short drive to Detroit Metro area.
> 
> The Detroit area is home to a wealth of manufacturing and supporting industries.
> 
> ...



Funny that you say that. I would think Windsor Essex would be a very likely location. Windsor Essex was the tool & die capital of the world for ages till the orient took over. Detroit manufacturing relied on Windsor to meet their machining needs.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 9, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The Cleveland - Toledo - Detroit - Flint - Lansing - Grand Rapids - Gary - Chicago corridor has always had about 1000 times the capacity and services of Windsor.
> 
> All my relatives are from the rust belt and almost all exclusively worked in auto and related industries and I've been to the area about 1 billion times and watched the slow decay and closures. But they still have some companies with amazing capabilities.



I guess that depends how you measure such things. I didn't realize that Windsor Essex was so huge that it could be compared to 5 or 6 US States! I thought it was only 50 sq miles or so..... LOL!

Seriously though, the US region you describe is prolly 1000 times as big as Windsor. So it seems pretty obvious to me that it would have more tool & die shops than Windsor does. 

Nonetheless, as a fellow who spent his entire career in the auto industry, I can testify to the fact that the big three autocompanies and the majority of the big suppliers universally preferred to place machining work in Windsor Essex IF THEY COULD. The skills and job shop capabilities in Windsor Essex were legendary throughout the rust belt. Not only were they good at what they did, but they were also fast and cost effective. In every sourcing decision I ever participated in, the first choice for machining work was always Windsor Essex. 

Unfortunately, as you have noted, the entire rust belt including Windsor Essex really is rusting away. The orient now has the quality and expertise they never had before AND they also have the lowest cost too. Frankly, I find it all very sad. 

Nonetheless, I totally agree that it's worth a look in Michigan, Ohio, New York, Indiana, Illinois, and Pennsylvania. It really is a huge area with more people in it than all of Canada combined and there probably are some very good shops there that can do the work that @05plsrt4 is looking to have done. 

All that said, I wouldn't personally do that without weighing the cost and certainty of such work against the cost of simply upgrading to a better machine.


----------



## Dabbler (Feb 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I always wondered how durable acetal was in such an application.


I have a second hand experience on this, sorta - kinda.

My friend Bert rebuilt some punch presses (8-10) as tehy became worn.  They would need way adjustment at around 300-450K strokes on average. This is after being rebuilt to exacting specifications, but still iron/iron ways with heavy way oil lubricant.

He rebuilt the first one, and it exceeded 1 million strokes, and still no way adjustment, so he got to go-ahead to rebuild them all, in turn.  The result?  After 8 million strokes on the first machine, the runout was still in specm, but they adjusted the ways 'just in case'.

At the time Bert left the company, all 8 presses were well over 5M [4M?] strokes without way adjustment.

[These figures are from memory, but I'm very sure of the 1M test, and the subsequent numbers are a little fuzzier]


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> so, what you are saying is that I should be making my engravers out of this special lubricating turquoise acetal... or t least the main barrel and piston...
> 
> I guess a spalted maple rather than walnut handle and replace my brass inserts with aluminium that has been anodized a tangerine orange
> 
> ...



Personally, I love Walnut - especially burl or root. Very hard and drop dead gorgeous!


----------



## deleted_user (Feb 10, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Personally, I love Walnut - especially burl or root. Very hard and drop dead gorgeous!


I do too. But it would not look good with turquoise acetal


----------



## PeterT (Feb 10, 2022)

There are many types of 'plastic' that are used as friction bearing/bushing/slide surfaces that have great attributes; low friction, self lubrication, impervious to corrosion & some chemicals. I've seen instances where nylon, UHMW has actually worn the steel surface it rubs against. But they have downsides too. Lower modulus, lower strength, heat distortion... generally not for high loads.

From my vast internet lurking of turcite (which by definition makes me a subject matter expert LOL) the material is bonded to the surface, then hand scraped in. So basically acts as thin friction/conformance layer sandwiched between the mating sliding surface. I believe it can be stripped & replaced without grinding native cast iron. But I think bed grinding is more about correcting fundamental geometry like bed is worn or distorted? I'm not sure to what degree turcite could make up the difference if scraped to a perfect datum assuming the underlying bed was 'out'. I've seen it on new machines (boned on a new grind) on reconditioned machines (bonded on a re-grind) but I wonder if there is middle ground (bonded on a worn surface within X amount)? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I do too. But it would not look good with turquoise acetal



Have you considered staining the Walnut with a purple tint? 

Some Walnut actually is a bit purple - especially the heart wood.


----------



## PeterT (Feb 10, 2022)

I'm not sure if acetal is the same family of plastics as Turcite, but anyways, looks like it has specific ingredients & properties for this purpose (bronze or similar fillers, etching which facilitates bonding... etc). https://www.professionalplastics.com/sturb.062


----------



## Mcgyver (Feb 10, 2022)

PeterT said:


> There are many types of 'plastic' that are used as friction bearing/bushing/slide surfaces that have great attributes; low friction, self lubrication, impervious to corrosion & some chemicals. I've seen instances where nylon, UHMW has actually worn the steel surface it rubs against. But they have downsides too. Lower modulus, lower strength, heat distortion... generally not for high loads.
> 
> From my vast internet lurking of turcite (which by definition makes me a subject matter expert LOL) the material is bonded to the surface, then hand scraped in. So basically acts as thin friction/conformance layer sandwiched between the mating sliding surface. I believe it can be stripped & replaced without grinding native cast iron. But I think bed grinding is more about correcting fundamental geometry like bed is worn or distorted? I'm not sure to what degree turcite could make up the difference if scraped to a perfect datum assuming the underlying bed was 'out'. I've seen it on new machines (boned on a new grind) on reconditioned machines (bonded on a re-grind) but I wonder if there is middle ground (bonded on a worn surface within X amount)? Inquiring minds want to know.



yeah, these things aren't the miracle cure they might seem, at least in context of machine tool rebuilding.  Are you sure the nylon wore down the steel....or was it all the crap that can get stuck in the nylon?

Turcite does nothing to correct a worn bed; the bed gets ground and the Turcit (glued to the parts) get scraped into it.   You have mill away the underside of some parts (i.e. saddle) to ensure alignment - the Turcite has to be a minimum thickness.  Its popular commercially, but that's a different world.  Maybe a new machine goes 15 years then the owners do a Turcite rebuild figuring its good enough for another 7.  I want mine to last forever, or as close as possible.   It does see some use on new machines, but in those case the machine is designed for it - regular pressurized way oil delivery and high end seals fit to the ways to protect it from contaminants that will embed.

It also doesn't address the other big areas of wear needing fixing....tailstock quill/bore and cross slide. imo no point making the substantial effort to fix the wear in the bed, without fixing the rest of it.

Moglice offers some big advantages.  Its poured so if you carefully damn around the area and jack everything up,  align HS TS and carriage to tenths (via the jacks) and pour.  Then you don't have to scrape the parts into the bed - if they were in perfect alignment when the pour was done, you're done.  The moglice ends up harder than turcite, but afaik it still afaik suffers the same down fall though....

The real issue with it is crap gets embedded in it and grinds away on the way.  There are special wipers you can buy and figure out how to install (that never seemed easy to me).   It has its place and lots of commercial guys do Trucite jobs, but they don't own the problem years later; its application extended the economic life of the machine X years, win.  I don't think I want that risk on a machine I'm redoing for myself.

You might read Forrest's post here.  He's 80 now and not so active but he's about the most knowledgeable individual I've encountered on the topic of machine tool reconditioning.






						What's TURCITE ?
					

The subject of the topic says it all I think...  I've heard here and there about TURCITE, but I still don't know exactly what it is and what for and how you use it.



					www.practicalmachinist.com


----------



## calgaryguy (Feb 10, 2022)

calgaryguy said:


> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUrPSC5-obUiCaPHkcAOOeg/videos
> 
> 
> 
> Rees Atchinson has a number of videos up showing a metal planer resurfacing lathe beds, etc. Who knows as to the quality of the finished product, but interesting to watch...


Here's someone who had a Bridgeport table+ways milled by Rees Atchinson and his series on rebuilding his bridgeport.


----------



## PeterT (Feb 10, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Are you sure the nylon wore down the steel....or was it all the crap that can get stuck in the nylon?


Yes I'm sure its micro abrasion at work. The plastic is soft enough to embed particles & make a crude lapping tool. Actually I tried to make a split lap from nylon for home shop R&D. I guess it kind of worked from the grit holding standpoint. But failed for any degree of dimensional control particularly if it gets at all warm.


----------



## Darren (Feb 10, 2022)

On the logging trucks I used to work on, you'd often see a poly bushing in ok shape, but the link and side brackets where the poly bushing touched would be all worn to hell. It makes a great lap with some grit


----------



## 05plsrt4 (Feb 14, 2022)

Just wanted to update. Contacted about 10 places over the past few days. Not a single one returned my call or email. Thanks to everyone for the info.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 15, 2022)

05plsrt4 said:


> Just wanted to update. Contacted about 10 places over the past few days. Not a single one returned my call or email. Thanks to everyone for the info.



A poor reflection on our modern throw away society if you ask me. Might also be a reflection of the business case for a small business like that VS the cost of new machines. Lastly, might be a reflection of old skill sets retiring and younger skill sets not wanting to be bothered doing work like that..... 

I dunno which or maybe another I can't think of. But it's a sad thing regardless.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 15, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I think that the big rebuilders who restore large machines at a cost of 30K a pop can't be bothered to even look at hobbyists, and the small shops are too busy to respond, and you'd need to hound them and show up at their door with a lathe bed and a pocketful of cash. Then you also need to catch them at a lull in biz.



Could be the better of the explanations. At least I hope so. The ones I came up with were all depressing. At least yours has a positive side to it.


----------



## Degen (Feb 15, 2022)

I'm with @Susquatch my feeling is that few smaller shops that can (because they have the older skill set) are also busy surviving given the various difficulties currently in industry.

The bigger shops, well, may do CNC but they do not have machinist as we would call them, just operators.

Case in point last year I had a machinist helping me in my shop,  what was funny I knew more about machining and set up then he did considering I am not formally trained (other than a year or 2 in high school) this shows the lack talent out there.

Consider this think how much knowledge and wisdom is shared on this site with a not all members being formally trained.  We just learn on passion.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 15, 2022)

Degen said:


> We just learn on passion.



Very well said......

Passion and hard work makes the impossible possible.


----------



## Degen (Feb 15, 2022)

05plsrt4 said:


> Just wanted to update. Contacted about 10 places over the past few days. Not a single one returned my call or email. Thanks to everyone for the info.


How long is your bed and how bad is it (pictures) there may be other easier solutions.


----------



## Rauce (Mar 2, 2022)

At my work we send small turbine case castings for regrinds to “Hamilton Grinding Ltd.” On Niagara St. 

Small being a relative term, these would be 500-1000lb parts. I’ve been in there and they could definitely do a lathe bed but I have no idea what they would charge or if they’d say yes. It’s a smallish shop that’s a worker owned co-op.


----------



## Rauce (Mar 2, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> thanks for the tip... now, based on the forum rules, you now have to follow up with that shop and inquire as to their ability and willingness to undertake such projects for hobbyist metal workers.


I’ll ask the next time I’m there!


----------



## Rauce (Apr 28, 2022)

Well I’m now in the situation of looking for a place that can grind the bed of the Hendey so I though I’d revive this thread.

Hamilton Grinding has the capacity for a bed the size of mine but don’t typically grind angled surfaces and so complicated set ups or custom dressed wheels would be cost prohibitive.

They suggested another grinding shop in the Hamilton area that does industrial knives. They turned out not to have the capacity lengthwise.

DiPaulo in Mississauga has a dedicated way grinder and has gotten back to me with a quote that is on the high end of what I was expecting (2500).

No luck getting in touch with Preston rebuilt machinery yet. 

Had a thought to look for rebuilders in the Detroit area and sent an email today.


----------



## Degen (Apr 28, 2022)

Rauce said:


> Well I’m now in the situation of looking for a place that can grind the bed of the Hendey so I though I’d revive this thread.
> 
> Hamilton Grinding has the capacity for a bed the size of mine but don’t typically grind angled surfaces and so complicated set ups or custom dressed wheels would be cost prohibitive.
> 
> ...


Why don't contact Ford Machinery and ask them who they use or recommend or  the new/use machinery dealer on Matheson just of Dixie to see who they recommend.


----------



## Degen (May 14, 2022)

Little off topic but applicable


----------

