# Hi Wayne here from north of Cochrane



## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

Very interesting site, thanks and hello to all. I am just thinking of purchasing a small lathe and would like some informed opinions on which lathe I should consider. I am looking at two different lathes from Busy Bee.
 The first is a CX707 which is a 220 volt 2hp model. The second is a CX701 which is a 110 volt 1.5 hp model. The CX707 weighs about 400kg which I'm not sure how to move it to set it up. [ But it has more options like quick change gears and stand etc]. The CX701 weighs about 250 kg which is at least easier to move.
I have no experience with lathes and am looking for a new hobby, The CX707 might be overkill for me but I don't want to need to by another lathe should I grow out of the first one.
Does anyone have ideas or opinions that I can mull over and perhaps learn from? Thanks,
Wayne


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

The question of which one to buy does come up all the time. 

Both lathes you mention are very nice. When picking new machine & not being sure what exact projects you will do consider:

a) budget - lathe price + tooling - what can you afford
b) whatever you have space for a machine, power constraints etc. Don't worry about 250 vs. 400 - people move in things into their garage that are > 1000kg

Notice I didn't mention an "overkill". I guess $25000 beginner lathe would be an overkill for a beginner but both of your choices seem fine - again give strong though to (a).

You are 100% correct when you say "don't want to need to by another lathe should I grow out of the first one" - I learned not to be cheap.

I own ct087 lathe which is cheaper than both of your choices. Main (big) problem is no quick change gear box - but I did pay only $2400 for mine. I did find limits to my lathe but none are critical & it is a pleasure to use. Good thing I didn't go for a toy like a mini-lathe...


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## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

Tom Kitta said:


> The question of which one to buy does come up all the time.
> 
> Both lathes you mention are very nice. When picking new machine & not being sure what exact projects you will do consider:
> 
> ...




Hi Tom,
Thanks for your response! I would like a even larger lathe to start but a. I can't afford one and b. I don't have the room to put it. Are the two I've asked about good quality lathes? Are the tolerances good? I'll bite...how the heck does one move a 800lb lathe into a garage?
I know that at some point that I would like to do some knurling and I think the larger lathe would be better for that?

Wayne


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

Well, you are getting a Chinese lathe so don't expect US quality - but you are not exactly paying US prices either. Quality to price seems acceptable for manual lathe for most people on the forums.

You can also check out competition from say Grizzly - some of it can be had at competing prices (out of all places on amazon.ca).

If you were in Ontario you might also have taken a look at used non-Chinese lathes... 

To move heavy stuff into the garage I used rollers - simple pieces of pipe under the machine - the machine rolls on these pieces of pipe and you simply add them to the front as the back ones show up. I then used a winch on the garage roof to lift the lathe onto the stand. The rollers of course work if there is concrete as the surface under them.


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## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

I understand the difference but I can't afford to buy American, even more now with out dollar and shipping costs. I also wouldn't want to pay the shipping from Ontario either. There will be machinery and lathes coming up for sale soon in Calgary I'm sure, but it will all be large oil field stuff. The CX 707 is 66inches wide and I have room for 67 inches where I need to put the lathe.
The rollers are a great idea, but the winch to the ceiling would be a problem as it has been fully dry walled in and I have no idea what else may be run up there or where. Over eight hundred pounds on a 2X4 would likely get exciting as well. The 220 runs across there somewhere for the dryer which is in the next room. It is that plug that I would have to duplex to run the lathe. I guess I could see how much a hydraulic engine lift would cost but I think one that is large enough would likely have the front legs sticking out too far  [for balance].
I sure wish I knew if these are good dependable lathes though, do you know anything about Busy Bee? Are they a reputable dealer who honor warranty etc?


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

Well, Busy Bee tools is the poor brother of Grizzly Industrial.... both as companies and in real life (owners are brothers).

Through BB has all your invoices on file (you can see them on their PC screen & they ask for your phone #) they demand original invoice for any warranty work + have rather strict short term return policy. They also don't have extensive replacement part catalogue with parts stocked like Grizzly website - see Grizzly website under parts - they have every little screw for each on of their machines available for purchase! 

I only had warranty issues with amazon.ca and with Grizzly - service was outstanding with no questions asked policy. A motor for table saw was sent from amazon.ca (fulfilled by Amazon) with Grizzly as brand. The UPS guy dropped the motor and bent the cover. So I complained and sure enough replacement was in the mail with 2nd day air. This time Canada Post dropped it....

Amazon told me I can again return it or accept 20% off. I accepted 20% off and called Grizzly which promptly sent for free under warranty a new cover. Both Amazon.ca and Grizzly worked hard to keep me happy - no sweet words for UPS and Canada Post.

As for BB warranty service I have not yet had to use it. But given the wait times to get some tools I would not hold my breath for it. 

My lathe is holding out well, others have used same model for a long time & I am not running a production shop.

See whatever Grizzly sells your model of the lathe - don't have to buy from them - but if they do you are covered for some unlikely event into the future.


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## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

Wow! VERY informative. Thank You!
I will Google Grizzley and see what I can find. I used to buy stuff on e-bay and had good luck there but with the Canadian dollar it just isn't worth it. Where is Grizzley located? If not I will have a heart to heart with the Busy Bee guys and make sure we are all on the same warranty page before I buy anything. I have been working today to clear a spot for the lathe [Whatever it turns out to be]. The 707 has quick change gears and a stand which pretty much makes up the difference in the price from the 701, then there is several other upgrades that would really be free. Do you know if anyone on this feed has had a CX lathe from them?

Wayne


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

Your welcome.

Not sure whatever someone has a CX lathe on this forum from them - you can come to the coffee meetup and ask. Through I would be surprised if you didn't find anyone on this forum that has CX.

Note that most of BB machines are just re-badged standard models of Grizzly - which simply sources "generic" stuff and puts their name on it... or names of their cheap brands such as Steelex or Woodstock. Or South Bend - they own the name.

Grizzly last time I checked was somewhere in Washington state - they offer some deal on shipping to Canada...


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## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

I found their website, they have some very nice looking stuff, but then it all looks nice in the pictures. I will try to make one of the coffee meetings but I am over sixty kilometers to the north west city limits. I will try to do some more checking and see what happens. I don't think they have a CX707 in stock at Busy Bee which makes me wonder if they just order machines as they sell them. If that's the case I may be able to just order one from china and save some money and get it delivered. lol That is interesting...I thought South Bend was a high quality lathe company. I have much to learn. Heavy Sigh.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

South Bend was a very high quality company - *was* - Grizzly is trying to resurrect the name. Their prices for SB are high but I have no clue as to the quality & where they are made.

You can check out aliexpress.com for buying directly from China. Through shipping might be a killer. There are no returns (see shipping) but if you get a model that say Grizzly has for less it might be a good deal.

You can also source a lot of other things directly from China - quality is a mystery meat - sometimes you get excellent stuff, sometimes not.


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## Wayne (Jan 14, 2016)

I have purchased several items from China although mostly LED lighting etc but other than UPS problems it has all been good. Alibaba is another good sales group. Shipping is better if you buy a container load but I likely wouldn't wear out that many lathes. I wonder if it might be possible to piggy back with someone else's order and both save some money. Hmmmm


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 14, 2016)

People that work in the industry are known to have attached themselves to the order of their employer.


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## PeterT (Jan 14, 2016)

Hi Wayne, welcome. I found some links for you pasted below. Hopefully will help. I'd encourage you to Google as much as you can for reviews. Maybe 'Busy Bee' will yield more hits on other hobby machinist forums. I think you are going about it the right way & most have us have wrestled with the same decisions. IMO, getting a machine landed, maneuvered into position & then acquiring tooling ... the lathe price difference starts to fade in the rear view mirror by comparison. I'm not saying throw money away, but if you are on the teeter-totter of features & size, I'd say get what you want & be done with it. 
- re knurling, I am going to try & convince you to get a scissor style knurler vs. the straight-in plunge style. Your machine will thank you, much less stress on the cross slide & work itself
- re power, check into separate panel box. I'm not sure they should be sharing the same circuit as your laundry but I'm no electrician (not sure if that's what you were suggesting but FWIW)
- if you can, try not to restrict the footprint with side-walls. Getting it in & out & just around to work on it ideally has some extra space.
- They moved my 10x40 in with an engine picker thingy, but they have kind of a largish footprint. Pay attention to machine pickup/strapping points, they typically have headstock heavy CofG
- try & download the manual(s) & check out what they use for tooling. It could be same between 2 you're considering. But what I mean is D-pin style on the headstock vs. threaded. On a recent machine like that, especially of Asian origin its pretty smooth sailing in terms of available back plate adapters & MT# on the tail stock, but something to keep in mind. The chuck(s) they package may not be the ones you live with forever.
- dimension wise, get a handle on swing & length accommodation.  Compare this to your project expectations (bigger is always better in the end but usually costs $). They will quote swing over bed, that's one parameter. But also swing over the cross slide. Some guys have unexpected challenges with #2 because certain lathes stack the compound assembly a bit high. This can limit work & even constrain you if you want to upgrade tool post. Re length, some specs are getting cute (misleading) & not including chuck or tailstock vs. length of bed. Its best if you can see the machine in real life.
- re the stand & backsplash, depending on the quality might be good or bad. Check it out & ask questions & see how it mounts so you are prepared on moving day. The stand offered for my King at the time was tuna can crap so I paid a buddy to weld me a very simple one of square tubing which was more rigid. I wish I was smarter & integrated some casters or something. I wish I had a backsplash & regret cheaping out there. There is considerable futzing to replicate one I'm finding, boxing out for motor cooling, anchor points...
- I think with BB like most of these machines you have to treat them a bit like a kit that you might be tinkering with. They have their pros & cons, but at least lots of ineternet experience out there. I'd be lost trying to remedy an old machine, my hat is off to guys who do that kind of work. I'd feel more confident about something local or at least readily fixable when it comes to parts. Seems like the electrics is more the issue over mechanical. Good luck!

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=24923&highlight=busy

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=24848&highlight=busy

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5388.msg103414.html#msg103414


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## John Conroy (Jan 14, 2016)

I personally would not buy a large machine like a lathe from busy bee. Their reputation for warranty policies is abysmal. Check out this post from another forum.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/busy-bee-tools-canada.31507/


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## PeterT (Jan 14, 2016)

Wow, that link does not sound good for BB. (Good web link btw).
I forgot to mention, here is a King option KMS Calgary. I'm not sure about warranty, review status etc. nor have I looked at it, just mentioning. Didn't this model come up in discussion & someone had experience?
https://www.kmstools.com/king-industrial-12-x-36-metal-lathe-with-stand-12933


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## John Conroy (Jan 14, 2016)

If I was looking for a small lathe in Calgary I would certainly look at this Logan.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/calgary/logan-lathe/1131690432?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## Jwest7788 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hey Wayne,

Welcome to the forum,

I'm a little late to the party, but much of what I wanted to say is above already anyways.
If you can find time, the next meetup is a week tomorrow, but is south central(ish) Calgary. https://goo.gl/77eWt0


If I could go back, the only change I would have made with my purchasing decision would a lathe with a quick change gear box for threading. After manually changing gears a dozen times, you'll wish you had one too. Just food for thought.

JW


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## Wayne (Jan 15, 2016)

Tom and all
Thanks guys for your help and information. Although I am now more confused as what to do. lol. This seems more than just a Ford vs Chevy thing. [Both are good but people have strong preferences].

The website with the across Canada views on Busy Bee is very informative and causes me some concern, the problem is that I can't find another company in the Calgary area that sell small affordable lathes
Peter,
 I think you are right on about the knurling tool and will likely try the scissor style as excessive pressure on a small lathe is a serious concern. It seems that the Busy Bee lathes work well for people for know what they are doing in regards to set up and repair of lathes in general and who have lots of experience. I have none of that.  I also need to not spend a lot of money as I don't have any. lol. There is going to be a strong trade off between cost and brand.

As long as the dryer wasn't running at the same time as the lathe it should be fine as long as the lathe amp draw does not exceed the wire draw rating and breaker. None of the lathes mention how many amps they draw so it is likely not an issue.

Hi John,
That Logan looks like a great lathe but it is very old and may have issues that I couldn't identify or fix once found. That saddle has made a lot of passes in it's time and may have more wear on the bed and ways which would need resurfacing work which would cost more than the lathe. I have been told this at some point and really know nothing about it but it makes sense that wear would be a concern.

I really want to thank you guys for the responses and links this has quickly been very informative, but looks like the fun part of using and learning about a lathe is going to be offset by buying one. This stuff seems to be a lot like brain surgery...there is nothing to it...if you know what your doing.

Please keep sending any suggestions and info!

I will try to get to the coffee meeting, but can't promise as I live over a hundred kilometers from the meeting place but will get to one at some point. You guys have a great forum here so thank you again!

Wayne


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## Wayne (Jan 15, 2016)

Hi All; I found this about King Canada lathes and they have a store in Calgary.

 King 7x12 Lathe


It comes with a 4" chuck instead of the usual 3" chuck (which means you should be able to use the full spindle bore without having to buy another chuck)
It comes with ball oilers on the carriage, tailstock and compound
The base of the tailstock is actually correctly machined and finished and can be easily adjusted for centre or turning tapers (unlike the usual 7x12s which are normally covered in paint there where they shouldn't be)
It has way wipers on the carriage
The change gear cover, and electronics enclosure are both made of metal rather than the usual crappy plastic
The paint job looked really nice
The fit and finish of the lathe overall was miles above what I've seen on other mini lathes
They specifically say that the bedways on the lathe are hardened... The ones on my crappy 7x12 certainly aren't! And I've never seen another mini-lathe that said they were except the MicroMark...
It actually has a real E-stop switch, rather than the crappy hinged plastic thing they normally have. This is more important than it may seem because my crappy safety switch has actually failed to function a few times. When you need that switch to work, you *really* need it to work...


From what I've seen the quality of the basic features seems to be really good. It actually has some features that the LittleMachineShop machines don't come with, which quite surprised me... I was expecting another crappy mini-lathe offering and that was not what I saw!

It only has the 350 watt brushed motor instead of the nice 500W brushless that the LMS and MicroMark machines come with, but I have the same motor on my lathe and haven't found it to really be an issue.

This guy says ... I know the guys at the local dealership pretty well and they're really good on warranty and parts. King also have mobile service guys in Canada that will come fix the lathe if anything goes wrong. Not sure I'd get that service from anyone else.

Anyone have any first hand knowledge on King Canada machines?

Wayne


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## John Conroy (Jan 15, 2016)

I have had one experience with warranty at KMS on a King Canada bench mounted belt sander. It came with a one year warranty and after 13 months the motor went up in smoke. I was prepared to go to battle with KMS and King Canada but when I took the machine into the KMS store the counter guy took one look at it, then went to the shelf and got me a new one. He said King Canada has great warranty and would not question his decision to replace the machine. KMS and King Canada will get more or my business.

This is the sander I bought.

https://www.kmstools.com/king-canada-bench-top-belt-disc-sander-390 

After taking to bottom cover off it quite evident it was not made for sanding metal because there if nothing to keep the metal debris out of the motor, in fact the fan on the motor will actually draw the dust in. I'm sure that's what caused the failure of my first one. So I don't recommend this sander for metal but I'm happy with the warranty service I got. I'm still working on a way to protect the motor on the new one from another failure due to ingested metal dust.


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## Wayne (Jan 15, 2016)

John Conroy said:


> I have had one experience with warranty at KMS on a King Canada bench mounted belt sander. It came with a one year warranty and after 13 months the motor went up in smoke. I was prepared to go to battle with KMS and King Canada but when I took the machine into the KMS store the counter guy took one look at it, then went to the shelf and got me a new one. He said King Canada has great warranty and would not question his decision to replace the machine. KMS and King Canada will get more or my business.
> 
> This is the sander I bought.
> 
> ...




Hi John,
That is great news! They are a long, long way from here but what you say will make it worth the trip.
Wayne


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2016)

King has a store in Calgary? I thought they were only out east. The King lathe I was referring to in KMS Calgary is a bigger size (12x36).
https://www.kmstools.com/king-industrial-12-x-36-metal-lathe-with-stand-12933

Here is King Canada link
http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm

I have a King 14x40 purchased mid-90's from Modern Tool Calgary. Its been a decent machine but really has seen light use until past couple years. Modern Tool used to be a King distributer back in the day for smaller lathes like this (mostly they are industrial big boy machines). Mine is Taiwan iron, generally considered a slight step above the first Chinese offering that started to arrive  in that era. I found this same lathe under a variety of paint schemes & labels, both in Canada & USA. But the world changed. Modern Tool subsequently dropped King & pursued their own line China direct so they could directly control quality (and probably take out another middle man). They have a 14x40 & and a now that I look at it, a smaller one too, links below. They are good people, very machine knowledgeable, directly connected to parts, warranty work etc. So that's another viable option. This might be outdated info or sales talk, but I was told they spec'd/upgraded the motor & electrics direct with manufacturer to mitigate known teething pain.
http://www.moderntool.com/
http://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-cq6128x660a-lathe-11-swing-26-between-centers/

Back to King, I *suspect* they also have a blend of lathes depending on the size/model but you would have to chase this down. By that I mean, they may well be drawing from the same lathe sources as others. I mean they look so obviously similar. Now what they do to pre-screen or QC is for sales people to convince you.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the info. I like the modern tool 11 X 26 inch lathe but I noticed that they don't put their prices on them. I always think that if your afraid to put your price on something your advertising that your charging too much and hope that your quick talking salesman can close the deal anyway. That may not be the case, but then why not list a price?There is a Modern Lathe for sale on Kijiji for $1200.00 it would be interesting to see why he is selling it.


Modern cq6128 x 660 lathe
Good shape.
220v
New 2600$
For 1200$ obo
403 862 3043
Comes with 3 & 4 jaw chucks
And some accessories
MODERN 11″ Swing, 26″ Between CentersCQ6128X660A LATHE

King Tools in Calgary is located at 6311 - Center Street South

Wayne


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2016)

I think I see whats happening. That address = KMS. They are listing themselves as a King distributer/depot/whatever.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Yes, that's them. Here is their blurb...
KMS Tools is a Canadian retailer of power tools, woodworking, metalworking, and construction equipment. It was started in Coquitlam, BC in 1983 by Stan Pridham. As of September 2012, KMS Tools operates 9 stores across Western Canada. The company offices and distribution warehouse are both located in Coquitlam with the main store, car parts and the service department.


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2016)

I wouldn't be too concerned about Modern not posting prices, just call them. That's just a company on-line preference. The exchange rates are so volatile lately & maybe price variations tied to what they have in stock vs. what's coming. Also factor the delivery / pickup charges, even with Calgary based firms. You might see some variation there for 'all-in' costs.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

I suppose, although King's prices are all listed. Modern does have some interesting stuff. They need a lathe store in Cochrane. lol.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

I spoke to them at KMS Calgary. They are not King Canada but are a distributor for them. The guy I spoke to thought the 12 X 36 might be a little large for a hobby lathe. I was thinking it might be a little small. lol.
Wayne


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## John Conroy (Jan 16, 2016)

I was looking for a 12 X 36 when I found my 14 X 40 for sale. I have done a couple of things on it that would not have been possible on a 12 X 36. Everyone I talked to before I bought said buy the biggest machine you can afford and have room for. I agree with that statement now!


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi John,
I agree whole heartedly with you. I would love to have a larger lathe but there is no way that I could ever afford it. Although with that said, I am going to have to get real inventive to move even a 12X36 into place. Almost a thousand pounds and top heavy as all get out. It looks like I may need to find a engine crane on wheels, but then that's another three or four hundred dollars I'd have to borrow. Heavy Sigh. LOL and I won't have bought any tools yet.


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## John Conroy (Jan 16, 2016)

Some things to be careful of when moving a lathe. As you stated they are very top heavy. I moved mine by using a lifting strap wrapped completely around the bed so it choked down on the bed when lifted. Be careful to use blocking to keep the strap from touching the lead screw etc. The center of balance will be close to the headstock so you will have to experiment a bit to find the balance point. I used the tailstock, sliding it back and forth on the ways to fine tune the balance. Don't try to do this without help like I did! I was lucky and got mine done with no mishaps but there are lots of stories of people that dumped their machines trying to move them. I bet one of the Calgary members would give you a hand and maybe even lend you an engine crane. Here are some pics of my lathe move.




















I welded up a steel base for mine with a 1" nut at each corner then used threaded rod to raise the whole base assembly high enough so the engine crane legs would fit under it for easy alignment. The steel frame stiffens the base a lot so you don't need the sheet metal cross brace between the pedestals.







Once it was sitting on the base I just turned the threaded rods a little at a time at each corner to let it down and level it. Don't forget to seal the hold down bolt holes with silicone or it will leak any oil in the chip tray onto the floor. Ask me how I know!!

In this pic you can see it is partially lowered and still has the sheet metal cross brace, I took it out later so I could install 2 shelves for storage.







Here you can see it in it's final resting place with the shelves installed. The steel frame base also makes the footprint of the machine larger and more resistant to tipping.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Wow, nice job!
The threaded rod legs are a great idea, not sure that I can pull that off though. Once you had the lathe on the stand and unhooked the lathe from the crane, how did you move it into position? You remind me of me...you knew better than to try to do it alone , and then did it anyway. lol. Where is the cheapest place to get an engine lift that will handle at least a thousand pounds? It's a pity they can't put the stand on wheels that then lift up off the floor like they do with large table saws.


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## John Conroy (Jan 16, 2016)

I made up some wheels using 1" connecting nuts for the threaded rod, some 3/8" cold rolled round bar and some el-cheapo bearings I got at princess auto, about $2 each.



















These worked OK for the lathe and my small mill but did not stand up to the weight of the 2500 lb Ferro mill. I made some heavy duty wheels to move that machine.































Once the wheels are threaded onto the rod you just turn them with a wrench to the direction you want and push, the machine moves pretty easily of the floor is smooth and clean. All of this would be much easier with a pallet jack but I don't have one, nor do I have room for one. I bought my engine crane at Princess Auto for about $200, but you can probably rent one from an equipment rental place. I use mine a lot so it's worth while to own it. If you were closer I'd lend it to you.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Those bearing wheels are brilliant! The heavy duty ones are the best but then you need a lathe already to make them. What type of welder are you using? Princess auto doesn't carry the engine lifts anymore, or at least I couldn't find one on line. There was a equipment rental place in Cochrane but they closed. I will have to try to find/borrow one. My wife sent my picture to Princess auto and told them not to let me in. I spend Waaaaaay to much money on stuff I might need in the future there.


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## John Conroy (Jan 16, 2016)

Here's a link to the crane but it is now $350!

http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/powerfist-2-ton-quick-lift-folding-shop-crane/A-p8210072e

There is a used one on Kijiji in Langdon for $100

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-other/calgary/engine-crane/1133012926?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Canadian Tire has one too for about the same price.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-2-ton-hydraulic-engine-crane-0091086p.html#.VprhfNqFOos


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Thank You Good Sir! I used your link and Canadian Tire wants $369.99 for one. Jeez! For a one time use that is a bit pricey. I may have to contact the Langdon guy but that is light years away from here for an old guy. lol. I may wait until I can get one before I get the lathe as there is really no point in having it if it can't be set up and running. There might be a new hobby for me right there. patience... Nope that won't work. I'll find one somewhere.


Product #09-1086-2


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## Janger (Jan 16, 2016)

Wow lots of good commentary. I own the Cx701. I read all that stuff too before I decided to buy one anyway. Mine is very satisfactory. It's my first lathe and I already want a bigger model with the gear transmission and more capacity. But it's a very nice machine for $3K. It can do all kinds of stuff and I have had a great time using it and learning. I have some other craftex gear too and for the money I think it's great stuff. 

All the other accessories you will need too really adds up. Tooling, drill bits, quick change tool post (really need that) micrometers, gauges, hones, live center, band saw. Oh and then you can join us in the great metal hunt! And curse metal stupid market with the rest of us. Recently I've been blowing a fortune on used books but toms machining, tubalcain, and others on YouTube are great to get started. 

If you want to see mine working just let me know.


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## Janger (Jan 16, 2016)

I rented an engine hoist for $50ish if I remember right from the rental place on Horton Rd. Radar's Rentals Calgary, AB


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi John,
I wish I had that info a day ago. LOL not to worry, I think I am going with the Taiwan made King lathe though. They were very helpful and have a service section. I kind of think some of what I've heard is the Chevy Ford thing but the thread that runs through them all is that the Taiwan lathes are more reliable for beginners. I would like to watch your lathe in motion in the future and would like to learn tips and traps from your experience as well.

Wayne


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

I will find a hoist somewhere, no problem, it might just take a bit longer. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be properly thought out BEFORE the purchase of a lathe including, what size to get,  where to put it, how to wire it in, how to move it in etc. All equally important issues. Haven't even got to what I'll build with it yet.


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## Janger (Jan 16, 2016)

If possible you need space to the left of the lathe for long material to hang out of the hole in the spindle while you work on the end in the lathe.


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## Wayne (Jan 16, 2016)

I have some room on the left only. There is a doorway there that I can close the door and gain about five feet. I doubt that I will ever work on anything that long though. I know...never say never.


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2016)

Wayne, just to be clear from my perspective. What I was trying to say is the King's were predominantly Taiwanese in my mid-90's purchase era. I have no idea if they are now. Or could be the 14x40's are, but smaller ones come from another plant, maybe China, maybe not. So you would have to confirm that with King/KMS on there current size offering. And really the China vs. Taiwan might be rather old news now. At that time there was a pretty obvious difference & teething pains I was aware of. Today, it really depends on how they are made & what level of QC the distributer/middleman are insisting on & inspecting before releasing to customers. The (Chinese) 14x40 I fondled at Modern Tools was different than mine but I think I'd get used to it pretty quick. Hope this makes sense. A lathe is a big decision & lots of effort whatever you decide, so do as much searching & due-diligence as you can. Heck, I'd even ask for some customer contacts, but it probably violates 27 privacy laws these days. You might even try a reverse post requesting feedback on one of the bigger forums & see if anyone replies.


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## John Conroy (Jan 17, 2016)

Another option if our dollar ever gets out of the toilet is Grizzly Tools or Precision Matthew. I bought my first mill from Matt at Precision Matthews and the service was first rate. Very reasonable shipping and he arranged the customs and brokerage stuff as well. A week after I ordered it I got a call from Day and Ross (trucking company) that it was at their depot in Edmonton. Matt deals with the manufacturers in China himself and only supplies the best of their products. His machines have upgraded bearings etc. I did have one electrical problem with my mill, Matt helped me diagnose it over the phone and shipped replacement parts the same day. He gave me $150 worth of free tooling to pay for my labor to install the parts, it only took an hour. I was all set to order a new PM949 mill from him  when the dollar took a dump and the effective price went up 35%. 

http://machinetoolonline.com/PMMillingMachines.html

You will find dozens of happy Precision Matthews customers over on the Hobby Machinist forum. Matt regularly posts on that forum.

That led me to buy the very used Ferro mil and refurbish it. So far without my labor I'm into the Ferro for about $4K including the VFD and the DRO and it still needs to be disassembled and repainted.

Anyway my point is after all that blather is, to me customer service is way more important than anything else. Grizzly and PM have both built their business on customer service.

A couple of very popular lathes from PM are these,

http://machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html

http://machinetoolonline.com/PM1236.html

Well it's 3am and I have to be at my grandsons hockey game at 7 so I better get to bed.


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

PeterT said:


> Wayne, just to be clear from my perspective. What I was trying to say is the King's were predominantly Taiwanese in my mid-90's purchase era. I have no idea if they are now. Or could be the 14x40's are, but smaller ones come from another plant, maybe China, maybe not. So you would have to confirm that with King/KMS on there current size offering. And really the China vs. Taiwan might be rather old news now. At that time there was a pretty obvious difference & teething pains I was aware of. Today, it really depends on how they are made & what level of QC the distributer/middleman are insisting on & inspecting before releasing to customers. The (Chinese) 14x40 I fondled at Modern Tools was different than mine but I think I'd get used to it pretty quick. Hope this makes sense. A lathe is a big decision & lots of effort whatever you decide, so do as much searching & due-diligence as you can. Heck, I'd even ask for some customer contacts, but it probably violates 27 privacy laws these days. You might even try a reverse post requesting feedback on one of the bigger forums & see if anyone replies.



Hi Peter,

I get that, I did speak with the sales guy from KMS and he said that the lathe I was intereste3d in was Taiwanese made so that's a plus. Others I have been in contact with  [one on this forum ] has dealt with KMS and were very happy with their service etc. I think part of the confusion is that there are problems on an individual level. There are dozens of happy BUSY Bee customers as well who say that their lathes work great and others who say they suck. Expectations also seems to play are large part, there are guys out there with top quality lathes who constantly change things and make improvements. Experience and knowledge factor in as good and bad, what would be a full stop devastating problem for me would be a simple part change or shim set for someone else. Yet another problem is the more you know the more you expect if you've worked with large full feature ultra quality machine then a small hobby lathe is likely to have some unsatisfactory quirks and lesser  performance issues. I am getting excellent information and advice from you guys here and really appreciate all of it! I am going to the other sites which have been suggested and learning things there as well. I doubt that any lathe is going to "have it all" without spending way more money than I can afford, so I will take what I can learn and get the best I can afford.


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

Another option if our dollar ever gets out of the toilet is Grizzly Tools or Precision Matthew. I bought my first mill from Matt at Precision Matthews and the service was first rate. Very reasonable shipping and he arranged the customs and brokerage stuff as well. A week after I ordered it I got a call from Day and Ross (trucking company) that it was at their depot in Edmonton. Matt deals with the manufacturers in China himself and only supplies the best of their products. His machines have upgraded bearings etc. I did have one electrical problem with my mill, Matt helped me diagnose it over the phone and shipped replacement parts the same day. He gave me $150 worth of free tooling to pay for my labor to install the parts, it only took an hour. I was all set to order a new PM949 mill from him when the dollar took a dump and the effective price went up 35%. 

http://machinetoolonline.com/PMMillingMachines.html

You will find dozens of happy Precision Matthews customers over on the Hobby Machinist forum. Matt regularly posts on that forum.

That led me to buy the very used Ferro mil and refurbish it. So far without my labor I'm into the Ferro for about $4K including the VFD and the DRO and it still needs to be disassembled and repainted.

Anyway my point is after all that blather is, to me customer service is way more important than anything else. Grizzly and PM have both built their business on customer service.

Hi John,
I have seen lots of good comments about Grizzly tools although Precision Mathews is new to me. I have bought some stuff through E-bay and am horrified by the dollar difference and fear that if I wait for the dollar to level I won't have a lathe for several years. I think one way to deal with this is to pick a dealer that I can actually travel to meet them, get a relationship that will hopefully work to a mutual benefit for both sides and hope they honor what they said at point of sale should something go wrong. A milling machine would be an incredible machine to have but I would never be able to afford them both at one time. It might be a great add on item for the future once I get the lathe paid for, but by the time I get all the tools for the lathe it will be quite a while before I could afford it..


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2016)

John opened my eyes to Precision Mathew. Their PM-1340-GT looks 99.9% the same as my King. The shipping & customer service experience is great news. Power to him for extending business into Kanuckistan. A lot of US sellers just cant be bothered. Yes, the $C $U is brutal, 1.45 today & dire predictions. Ouch.


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

You are right on with some of them just not wanting to bother with us, I guess if your making handfuls of cash without a lot of thought or work you just don't need to bother with selling out of country. Heavy Sigh. It's a pity though as I have found some really good deals on stuff in the U.S. but they won't ship or even mail it here. Our dollar is really hurting, there is no way I would buy anything outside of Canada right now. Somewhere I was told that there is only two companies that actually make lathes and they make them for all the different companies, doesn't sound right to me but then who knows.


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## John Conroy (Jan 17, 2016)

That PM1340GT is built in Taiwan and gets rave reviews. Very nice machine.


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

I just went to their website and looked at that lathe VERY NICE! No price listed but shipping alone would kill that deal.


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## John Conroy (Jan 17, 2016)

$4999 USD plus $399 shipping to Canada

http://machinetoolonline.com/PM1340T.html


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

$5400.00 delivered? That seems like a good price for that lathe. Above that I Imagine that there is duty etc.


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## Wayne (Jan 17, 2016)

Er, never mind , I just realised that it is a $7000.00 plus duty plus price right now in Canadian dollars. Ouch. I really miss parity.


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## John Conroy (Jan 18, 2016)

There is no import duty on machine tools. All I had to pay when I bought my mill from Matt was $250 for the customs broker and of course GST.


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## Janger (Jan 18, 2016)

The precision Matthews http://machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html
Is almost identical to the craftex cx701 I mean 99.9% the picture looks the very same. Dials layout etc. 

http://www.busybeetools.com/products/metal-lathe-12in-x28in-with-digital-readout.html

The difference seems to be the tool post and the chuck guard. It's $1000 more from PM. I'm not sure why anyone would want to get the same thing for more.?


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## John Conroy (Jan 18, 2016)

Now that our dollar is in the toilet the US dealers products are way more. When I bought my mill the CanBuck was in better shape. I suspect that when the Busy Bee has to order their next shipments the prices will be quite a bit higher. If someone is willing to roll the dice on Busy Bees warranty reputation it might be a good time to buy from them.


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## Wayne (Jan 18, 2016)

It does look very close, I think that their lathes for the most part are very good. There is a lot of bad press on the Busy Bee company as a whole which scared me off. I am going to go with the King brand, at least I am leaning that way taking everything into consideration. I am also looking at a Unimat DB200, I think it was made by EMCO.  THAT should be interesting. lol. I took the forums advice and instead of just using the dryer plug in for the lathe I wired in a 220 volt 70 amp pony box that I can breaker to 15 amps which should make everything a lot safer. I was concerned that if the lathe snagged on a piece of work that the machine would have to over come 30 amps to throw the breaker. That could cause quite a mess.  It all looks good and an electrician is coming over in the next couple of days to check my work.


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## Janger (Jan 19, 2016)

John Conroy said:


> Now that our dollar is in the toilet the US dealers products are way more. When I bought my mill the CanBuck was in better shape. I suspect that when the Busy Bee has to order their next shipments the prices will be quite a bit higher. If someone is willing to roll the dice on Busy Bees warranty reputation it might be a good time to buy from them.



Jah things seem to be going up. Every time I look at stuff I've bought at Busy Bee it seems to cost more. My lathe is up$400.


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## Wayne (Jan 19, 2016)

I just watched a program where they say that the Canadian dollar could hit $0.50 something. OMG. We won't be able to buy anything soon. I was thinking what might be a good topic on the website is lathe safety. I was searching lathe stuff and one of the pictures that came up was a guy who got sucked into his machine. I saw that almost happen once way back in high school when another student got hi apron caught in the piece he was working on. I know some people just won't listen but a reminder might be good to make some operators think as they work. The lathe that I am looking at comes with a safety guard that I was planning on removing. It may not ne a good idea. What do you guys think?

Wayne


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## Wayne (Jan 30, 2016)

Hi everyone,
I just bought a 12 X 36 inch King lathe from KMS tools in Calgary. The stand it comes with does not bolt up as it should as the pre drilled holes do not line up. I can re drill new holes and get it together [I think] although that may void the warranty. I asked the sales guy from the store in Calgary and the main store in Quebec but they have not bothered to answer. ANYWAY... I am not sure how to lift the lathe once I have that figured out. The thing is about 1000 pounds and is very top heavy and unbalanced. Any advice would really be appreciated. I also purchased a 2 ton  engine hydraulic hoist to lift it but how the heck does one strap it and still be able to unstrap it when it is in position over the stand?
Thanks,
Wayne


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 30, 2016)

Congrats on a new lathe. I hope it serves you well!

No surprises with no answer from KMS - they sort of roll in the similar direction to BB. I would however ask King for advice. 

As for lifting it mine has little feet made of cast iron that it sits on - under the bed feet. So I simply lowered the lathe onto the stand and onto the cast iron shims.

Once lowered simply removed the straps - I also think I placed the straps through the holes in the bed - next to the head - that is the gravity center. 

Didn't have any issues removing anything. Check online for videos - I am sure someone filmed it.


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## Wayne (Jan 30, 2016)

I am still waiting for the salesman to contact me regarding anything helpful he can do, if he does, great If not I will NOT support them in their sales. I spent a lot of money there [ To me] and would like some help with the normal issues that come with buying machinery. For one the pre drilled holes for the stand are in the wrong spot by about 1/4 of an inch not a big deal, I can re drill them. But they haven't answered if it will void the entire warranty or not. So far I am not happy with their service. The salesman [Scott, is a VERY knowledgeable guy in lots of areas, just not lathes]. Being a great  resource for other items is not helping me now though. I will post more on the Calgary KMS store once my dealing with them are done. I am hoping for some assistance from them but we shall see.

Wayne


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 31, 2016)

I guess though I am not a big fan of BB I should disclose that when I bought the mini mill and could not get the draw bar undone & contacted BB they called me back the next day. I guess all stores have bright and dark sides. You should see the tap and die set KMS was trying to sell - 100% return rate 

1/4 inch? God, even I am not that inaccurate  Today I did roof antenna assembly to get our 6 free HD channels. Lots of work. Welded for like 2h. Hopefully I didn't overbuild enough to get the roof to collapse.


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## John Conroy (Jan 31, 2016)

Congrats on the new lathe Wayne. You will need a lifting strap and you can use your engine crane with 2 people. Lifting the lathe onto the stand is easy but can be a little scary if you're not used to lifting heavy stuff with a crane. Wrap the strap around the bed of the lathe at least 1 full turn so it chokes down and will not slip. Keep the strap as short as possible so you will have enough lifting height and can clear you ceiling if it is low. It will need to be near the headstock end and you will have to experiment a bit to find the balance point. Be very careful that your strap does not touch the lead screws or switch control rod so they don't get bent. I built a base to go under the stand to stiffen the stand and raise is a few inches. It is welded using 2" square tubing with 1/4" wall. Each corner has a 1" nut welded vertically so feet and wheel can be mounted to level or move the machine. With the square tube frame under it the machine can also be moved with a pallet jack. Don't worry about the holes not lining up in the chip tray, just re-drill them, it will not affect the warranty. I had the same issue with mine when it got it. Use silicone sealer between the lathe bed and the chip tray to prevent cutting oil from dripping out into the base cabinet.








Look closely here you can see I used a length of 2" X 12" lumber under the bed to widen the strap for clearance and also a piece of 1" X 4" lumber the keep the strap away from the lead screws.












I used 1' threaded rod to make extension legs so the base could be lifted high enough to get the wheels of the engine crane under it. This was only necessary because my home made base was too wide for the engine crane. After I got the lathe bolted to the stand I just turned the legs back a couple of turns at a time to lower the machine down to floor level. I made wheels to fit in the same holes as the legs fro moving it around.






Above all else be safe!

John


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## Wayne (Jan 31, 2016)

Hi Tom,
Thanks, it will be fun if I ever get it on the stand and working. The sales guy from KMS said that he knew nothing about lathes which made me a little concerned and they have no one there who does. When I asked him about bolting the lathe to the stand he didn't know the answer so he checked and tol me that the lathe isn't bolted to the stand it just sits on it. I also know nothing about lathes but really doubt that it would not be well secured to the stand. How did the antenna turn out? Is it on a tower or just attached to the house?
\Wayne


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## Wayne (Jan 31, 2016)

Hi John,
Wow, thanks! The pictures really help with your directions I should be able to move it, are you interested in making another base similar to yours for this thing? If so what would it cost? I like your set up and it looks like you do very nice work.
Wayne


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## John Conroy (Jan 31, 2016)

Wayne if you buy the metal and the beer we could make up a base like mine in a couple of hours. I live in Edmonton so it would be a lot of travel for you however.


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## Wayne (Jan 31, 2016)

Oh Drats! Sorry about that, your right Edmonton would be quite a journey.


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## Jimbojones (Apr 20, 2016)

Hi Wayne

Probably you've found out that post-sales support for small machine tools in Calgary is dismal;  I know staff at both BB and KMS and although they try, they receive little training/support from their head offices & suppliers.  I own both BB and King equipment and experienced significant hassle to get parts  e.g. availability (up to 3 months wait) and price...let alone any local service.  For instance, a replacement X-axis lead screw for a King PDM30 mill/drill is $300....WHAT?!?!  It's a friggin 3' long acme rod with the ends ground down/drilled to accommodate the handles. 

Got your bench sorted out yet?


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## Tom Kitta (May 15, 2016)

Jimbojones said:


> Hi Wayne
> For instance, a replacement X-axis lead screw for a King PDM30 mill/drill is $300....WHAT?!?!  It's a friggin 3' long acme rod with the ends ground down/drilled to accommodate the handles.



If you need parts just go to Grizzly.com and get them from there - they have a lot of parts in stock and often at a very reasonable prices. As for your screw my lathe is too short, but someone else may have a 40'' long one and be able to cut the thread for you. I somehow don't think it would cost you a whole $300.

Personally I am moving away from small Chinese machines so BB and KMS are quickly losing their relevance for me.


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## Jimbojones (May 15, 2016)

Already checked Grizzly:  $210USD for screw/nut combo and then shipping....another $300+ CAD option

Will either source the raw rod out of the US


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## Tom Kitta (May 15, 2016)

How thick is the rod - I got 20mm by 40cm rod - linear rod - super accurate - hardened steel from China for around 25CAD. I know it *sounds* crazy to get stuff like that from China BUT it seems it works... at least we don't need to import air from them - unless we have vermin infestation


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