# Tig vs power panel



## PeterT (Apr 12, 2017)

Can someone guide me on suitability of my power panel to a Tig 'one day'. I'm no electrician but guessing I have 2 x 15A breakers dedicated to the 220v outlet my lathe is plugged into, assuming the bar thingy across the 2 switches means 2x15=30A? If so & assuming that's the outlet I plug Tig box into, how do I relate that to current draw the Tig unit needs?

Just as an example, from specs of this unit. Is it the 'in' rating I should be looking at?
220(1) 32A.. means single phase @ 32 Amps? So I'd be 93% ok?
http://www.everlastwelders.ca/tigwelders/powertig-250ex.php

So what would happen if you have under-amped breakers relative to Tig specs? You can still weld at lower power but if you goosed it, the breakers trip? Does that hurt the motherboard delicates?

And I'm guessing that's the max current I can ever put through based on the wiring gauge in the wall & outlet receptacle etc.?


----------



## Alexander (Apr 13, 2017)

Im also not an electrican but i did wire my whole garage. That is only a 15amp 220 circuit i think? But what size wire do you have there? You need 10awg or bigger if you want to put a 30a breaker in. I had to run another dedicated feed line from the house to the garage just to run my stick welder. The garage is 60 feet from the house so it was about $450 in wire conduit and breakers plus allot of digging to install all that. And now i have 40A circuit for the stick so i can't quite turn it all the way up. It welds fine on the lower settings. I found a chart somewhere on the internet that said how many amps the welder will draw at different settings.


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 13, 2017)

You do have a 15A 220V circuit, which should be wired 14 AGW  You will need to wire it 40A 220V to accommodate the 32A requirement;  that means from the fuse panel to the plug needs to be wired as 8 AGW (or 8 gauge if you prefer)  I'm not an electrician but have fixed screw ups from licensed electricians for my friends, including fixing 3 phase circuits.  Parts of the Canadian Electrical Code used to be on the internet for checking.

I've wired a 50A 220V circuit for my welders and my machine tools use a 220V 40A circuit, 'just because'.  My garage feed is 60A 220V.

My first welder, a 'ClarkeWeld' was rated as 120V 20A, but it would still throw a 20A breaker if the wire stuck too long.  Sometimes the current rating on the machine is not accurate, so you need a little headroom.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 13, 2017)

This is a dedicated panel in the garage, so power goes through this breaker configuration & into the 220v lathe plug & similar twin into mill plug. So the wiring was done to suit. Its behind drywall but was inspected so I assume whatever gauge wiring was required is in there now. Otherwise why else would they tie two 15A breakers together like that with the pin? I just assumed that gives 30A capability but maybe it doesn't work that way?


----------



## Alexander (Apr 13, 2017)

Your correct in thinking 


PeterT said:


> maybe it doesn't work that way?


Its not reall complicated basically 2 wires feed the bars in that pannel with 115v each. The only way to get 220v it to put a breaker across both seperate bars and tie them together for safety just so they always switch off together.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 13, 2017)

Ah, the bar across switches gets me the 220v, has nothing to do with increasing amps? So I only have 15A on my 220v lathe outlet then? Which is about half what the max rated of welder input is if I read specs correct? So any welding above that is an issue?


----------



## John Conroy (Apr 13, 2017)

I have 30 amp (#12 and 13) breakers set up for my 240 volt plug. I power my lathe, mill and both welders(only 1 at a time of course).  AWG #8 conductors from the breakers to the plug. The Everlast tig welder calls for 32 amps but I have never had a problem with just the 30 amp ones.


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 13, 2017)

Peter:  There's a lot of things here...  First the bar across only changes you from the 120V nominal to 220V.  the breakers say 15A, so that's all you get.  To be 100% on your hookup, you need 40A breakers, 220V. I haven't researched your welder, but you can do some careful welding at lower settings, but it is not recommended to regularly cause the breaker to trip.  that's a hazard.

May I come over and look at your wiring end-to-end?  It could save us from wrong assumptions, etc.


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 13, 2017)

hey John Conroy, since you never trip the breaker, and your wire is overrated, you shouldn't expect any problem.   You might trip the breaker if you go to max current with a high duty cycle, so I assume you tend to be using lower settings.  As I mentioned to Peter above, the by-the-book installation is 40A, and the breaker prices is the same (approx).  (since you have the correct wire already, you might consider upgrading sometime in the future, but that should require a plug change, unless you used a 40A plug already...)

All the best!


----------



## Alexander (Apr 13, 2017)

Standard plugs are 30a and 50a designs. All will be labled somewhere. As dabbler said 8awg should be fine with a 40a breaker so your in luck with wire. I would swap out the breaker with a 40 if your sure it is 8awg


----------



## PeterT (Apr 13, 2017)

Thanks all. Dabbler I might take you up on it but unfortunately not much to see on the wiring, its all behind drywall. I'm guessing the wires start from the panel on one side of garage & go around through the walls to the two 220v plugs on opposite wall where lathe & mill are parked. The initial thought was plug Tig into those but now the 'details' are emerging.

I just grabbed that first welder spec for no particular reason. Just one of the 200 series. Here is another just to compare.
http://www.everlastwelders.ca/tigwelders/powertig-200-dv.php
It shows max rated input current as 23A @ 240v. So am I correct in assuming even with this smaller duty Tig box I'm only good for 15A/23A=65% of what the welder is capable of?
For example they list these typical min/max welding specs so kind of hard to know where I'd land thickness wise, but obviously not full capability if my breakers/line is the limiting factor.
http://www.everlastwelders.ca/tigwelders/powertig-200-dv.php

So what I think I'm hearing is
a) use my existing 220v 15A outlets, but it comes with limitations as above
b) expand the panel & have a dedicated new heavy gage line come off. This might be the easiest thing - maybe just a short, heavy gage in external conduit right adjacent to the panel & plug the TIG in there. I haven't even thought about where I'd set up a welding table but it would probably be a set up / knock down type affair anyway with the space layout I have now.

What I still don't get is how are people doing work on 110v when they don't have 220v with welders that can go either 110 or 220 & same 15A current? I just assumed 220v*15A = twice as much watts as 110v on same 15A breaker & the Tig brain figures out how to turn that into more heat energy. Like an oven or a dryer. Obviously more to welders than I assumed


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 13, 2017)

Given that the max sustained amps are 23, then you can go for  30A circuit.  Yes, max inrush is 35A, but that should last for very short intervals (outside the scope of heating wires)  

I don't know how efficient your welder is, but I'm guessing it is an 'inverter' type.  (the everlast site was down when I tried your links).  Assuming that, you are probably in the 70-80% range. This is important because inverters are less efficient in their lower power ranges, or, of you like, produce more heat in the inverter circuit per amp than in the high range.  so you won't get 65% of the max amps, probably just under 50%.  So if you keep to 90 amps or less, probably you can go with your 15A circuit. I played that game with my clarke welder for a while, but I found it better to just bite the bullet and wire the correct circuit.

What I wanted to check were the actual wires in the circuit (available inside the panel, easy to see), and the breaker feeding the panel.  All these have to be sufficient.  You can wire a short 30A circuit to a 30A plug on the surface of the wall if it is armoured cable.  Since you are buying so little wire the extra cost of the armour is trivial. Flush mount boxes are cheap. and you have lots of room for a new breaker.  Good for peace of mind.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 14, 2017)

Ah, I think we have to arrange a panel inspection one day then. I'll lend you rubber gloves & hold the fire extinguisher 

I don't have a welder, that's kind of why I'm wondering about this stuff in advance. Try this link to Everlast TIG section. Some guys on our forum bought various models & speak well of them so that's just what I pulled for reference. http://www.everlastwelders.ca/tigwelders.php

So on my first pic showing the garage panel, I have 10 breaker switches each at 15A. So does that make it a 150A panel? If so, how does that work if I want to do it right and make a 40A 220v circuit with shorty offshoot conduit/plug for Tig plugin? The line that feeds it is trenched. Are secondary panels like this a max power (wattage?) thing? When we did house renos they turfed the old panel & upgraded but power in was off the main line.


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 14, 2017)

Could you post a picture of the top of you panel with the master breaker? (If it has one).  That would tell me a lot.  I'd still be happy to come over and check it out.  At least you would know what you will need.

regarding the 10 breaker locations:  My garage panel has 32 positions, and I assure you I don't have a 480 amp feeder.  I feed this panel with a  60 amp 220v breaker.  so it's not just math.


----------



## kylemp (Apr 14, 2017)

You need to find the brake from the house that is feeding the subpanel. That's your maximum amperage available for the whole garage. That is also the maximum breaker size you can stuff in there although it wouldn't be useful to do that because your breaker feeding your subpanel will also be feeding the lights, etc in there and would kick before the one you installed. Assuming it is 60a, you could go get some wire and throw in a 50a, since that's the larges current plug you are going to find at home depot or something like that which is more than enough.. were running a 350a mig off of 50a and haven't blown it yet. Although we haven't run it at max amperage. We're also running a pretty large tig, either 225 or 275 (can't remember) with no issues on a 50a breaker.
The 50a female plugs are like 17 bucks i believe at home depot and you can get a breaker and wire fairly cheap as long as it's single phase and not a panel from 1902.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 15, 2017)

Some updates. The panel in the garage has no master switch, this is it in its entirety. My house panel that feeds it has 15A&B tied at 40A and 17A&B tied at 40A that both say garage (no pic). So I'm guessing I have 80A to the garage panel? The line is buried in same trench as gas & comes into the garage through a conduit. My 220v plug for both lathe & mill looks like this.


----------



## JohnW (Apr 15, 2017)

PeterT: It is extremely likely that your in-house panel is labeled incorrectly. One set of 40A breakers is probably for the stove. The other may be for the garage. If you have an electric dryer there will likely be a pair of 30A breakers for that. It would be a very bad thing (both illegal and very unsafe) to parallel two sets of breakers to feed the garage. So, you probably have a 40A 220V service to the garage.

To clear up the whole deal of what happens when you use two breakers to get 220V, you do in fact double the power available. The power is the current times the voltage.  So, the power available from a single 15A 120V circuit is about 1800 watts. From a 15A 220V circuit (supplied by two 15A breakers) it is 15A times 240V = 3600W. With a 220V circuit the power comes out from one breaker and returns on the other. So double the power is available.

A standard household service in Canada (and the US in general) is properly called "split-phase power". It consists of two 120V RMS (nominal, sometimes called 110V or 115V) AC lines that are 180 degrees out of phase and one neutral line. Neutral is very similar to ground. The electrical company provides the two hots and a ground to your service entrance. At that point the ground is literally grounded to the ground and from there on the neutral and ground lines continue on as separate things to the breakers and the loads. The neutral should always be very close to ground potential, but can vary slightly when things are under load. The ground line should always be at ground potential. It is there for safety only. Ground lines should never carry current (except when they are doing their safety thing and carrying current to ground because of a wiring problem).

So that leaves you with the neutral (always white), and the two hots (generally black, but sometimes red when dealing with 220V). There is 120V available between either of the hots and neutral and 240V available between the two hots (they are 180 degrees out of phase so they add up to 240V). The breakers are always on the hot lines. That is why there is only one for 120V and two for 240V. Two hots from the same phase are in phase (0 degress out of phase), so they add up to zero voltage between them.

With 120V one line is hot (black), and one neutral (white). The neutral line is very close to ground in potential so it is not really "dangerous". If neutral shorts to ground nothing will really happen in most cases. One hot line varies between ground and +169V.  The other varies between ground and -169V. The voltage varies 60 times a second (60Hz). Since the hot lines are 180 degrees out of phase one is high while the other is low so the voltages simply add. When you measure across both hots, it goes from -169V to +169V for a range of 338V total.

Where did 169V come from???? That is the actual peak voltage of the sine wave of the AC voltage. Divide 169 by the square root of 2 (1.414), and you get 120V RMS (Root Mean Square).  That is the effective "average" voltage of the line which give you the "average" power that is available. The RMS voltage is what is generally quoted rather than the peak. The peak is always 1.414 times the RMS when the current is a sine wave. This is a simplifications, but it is pretty close to the truth.

Inside the breaker panel: The main bus bars the breakers plug into will alternate between phase-A and Phase-B. A set of breakers placed across two bus bars will have 220V RMS across them. If the two breakers are plugged into the same phase, they will have zero volts across them (there will still be 120V between each breaker's output and neutral). Linking the breakers does not create the 220V, placing the linked breakers across two phases does that. The linking of the breakers is for safety so that if one blows, the other will as well, completely turning off the 220V.  Non linked breakers across the two phases will work fine to provide 220V. Note that that does not meet code and is not safe.

There is no problem with oversubscribing within a breaker panel. They are designed for that. When a panel is rated for 60A, it means that the maximum it can be safely fed with is a circuit protected by a 60A breaker (and the appropriate thickness of wire). It is quite normal to have a total of 200A of breakers in a panel rated at 60A and fed by an upstream 60A breaker. If the total current actually drawn by all the circuits in the panel exceeds 60A, it will blow the breaker in the upstream source.

PererT: If your garage is actually fed by a conduit the whole way, it is likely possible to pull thicker wires through from your house panel to your garage panel. Then you could upgrade the house panel to have a 60A breaker, and add a 40A circuit in the garage to feed the hungry 'ol TIG, and still have enough power left over to run the lights and stereo while welding at full power. It is common for the conduit to only go a bit below ground level, then have burial rated wires just buried in the dirt (usually with something like a 2x4 above them for physical protection). In that case, you can't pull new wires through without re-digging the trench.

Did I just completely muddy up the waters, or does what I said actually make sense to anybody???


----------



## PeterT (Apr 15, 2017)

Thanks John. I'll have to check the house panel & see what it turns off. Just looking at my own pic of where the conduit riser enters the garage - is there a chance I have 2 lines coming in (arrows), maybe one to each 40A breaker?.


----------



## JohnW (Apr 15, 2017)

More likely (I would guess), is that you originally had a small service to the garage (probably without a sub-panel) that provided one 120V circuit or maybe two 120V circuits with a common neutral (the same as one 240V circuit). Then a larger 40A circuit was added that feeds the panel. In that case, your house panel would likely have a pair of linked 40A breakers for the sub-panel, and either one single 15A breaker or a pair of linked 15A breakers for the smaller original circuits.

I am assuming that there is only one panel in the garage. It is very likely that the original circuit runs the lights and maybe the original plugs for cars. Remember, most normal people actually use their garages to park cars, and that is when most garages are originally wired for.  

If your lights are on the original small circuit, you probably could use a 40A breaker in your sub panel for a TIG. As long as the air compressor does not com eon while you are welding, you would probably be OK.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 15, 2017)

Hmm.. now you have me wondering. The garage was built during my time. Wish I took notes.  I told the electrician I'm installing a heater that required a gas line from house & the mill & lathe required 220v. I (foolishly) did not consider a welder in my future. The trench accommodates both gas & electrical, but in terms of 'what' electrical he ran in there I cant say. That's why I was wondering out loud, maybe 2 separate lines? The upper return enters wall at same height as panel box. The lower return near ground level (if that's what it is).. not sure there??. Maybe that controls 110v side, lights & conventional outlets? The coiled black cable is unrelated, I think phone or cable, not used. Do you think instead of one big AWG wire at say 80A he decided to run 2 independent 40's & that explains the 2 breakers on home panel?

Sensing I need someone qualified to confirm & make changes in any event, but just wondering out loud if I'm maybe already semi-knackered.


----------



## JohnW (Apr 15, 2017)

Both conduits have easily removable covers on the LB's. Take them off and see what is inside.

Turn off all the breakers in your garage panel and see if you still have power / lights anywhere possibly fed by the second conduit.

Take the cover off your house panel and see what is connected to the two sets of 40A breakers. they should be thick (i.e. 6-8 AWG wires), vs the usual thin (14 AWG)  wires connected to 15A breakers. Can you see where the wires from the house panel go?


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 15, 2017)

So peter, this is why having a look might be helpful.  It might find a problem (heaven forbid)  or it might help to explain why it so confusing.  I was trying to avoid long explanations, especially with conditional statements (if 'this' then 'that'). What really freaks me out is 'running gas and electrical in the same trench'.  Even if your electrical is run in rigid piping, it has never been safe to do so.  I think that my gas fitter wanted to be sure there was a meter separation between them (I have 8m).

-There is no safe scenario where a pony panel (your garage) can be fed with two separate *independent* breakers.

I agree with everything JohnW wrote out and thankful he took the time to do so.  (I'm in the middle of several projects with looming deadlines, hence my terseness)

On a home owner's permit you can make any upgrades needed, as long as it is done strictly within code (It would be unsafe to do otherwise).  You are allowed assistance, as long as you do the work.  You don't need to incur significant electrician's fees to sort it out.  On the other hand, you may want to for peace of mind.


----------



## John Conroy (Apr 15, 2017)

Running an electrical service and gas in the same trench may be unsafe but it meets building code in most places. I found this information on the City of Airdrie's web site.

http://www.airdrie.ca/getDocument.cfm?ID=952




*Electrical for Detached Garages: *

*Updated Feb 19, 2016 for 2015 CE Code in force Jan. 1, 2016 *

* Garage construction requires permits (electrical, building)

* Permits must be applied for at the time.

* Dial before you dig – Alberta One Call – www.albertaonecall.com 1-800-242-3447

*Underground branch circuit feeding a detached garage: *

There are several acceptable methods for feeding garages with underground wiring. Ensure the chosen method includes proper depth of burial, wire approved for wet locations and proper protection for the cable chosen.

NMD90 (known as Loomex or Romex) shown above is not rated for underground use!

*Underground wiring methods. These are not the only approved methods but this shows the 3 most common methods: *

1. NMWU cable in conduit - one continuous cable running from the panelboard in the house to a junction box, first device box or panel installed in the garage. The cable is protected by PVC conduit on all exterior surfaces and for the entire underground section. Buried minimum 18” below finished grade.



2. NMWU cable direct buried - one continuous cable running from the house panel to a junction box, first device box or panel installed in the garage. Cable protected by PVC conduit on all exterior surfaces to the bottom of the trench. Cable is then laid in the trench (direct buried) and protected by a layer of screened sand with a maximum particle size of 4.75 mm or screened earth at least 75 mm (3”) deep both above and below the cable. Buried minimum 24” below finished grade.



3. TECK Cable - one continuous cable running from the house panel to a junction box, first device box or panel installed in the garage. Directly buried a minimum 18” below finished grade. Note the metal armour on a TECK cable must run continuously both electrically and mechanically from end to end – the armour cannot be cut off at any point – and must be bonded at both ends. The bonding of the armour is accomplished by metal to metal contact with the cable connectors at the junction box or panel. Teck cable that contains a blue wire that will be utilized as a white “neutral” requires that wire be identified at both ends, normally done with white electrical tape. The outer jacket must be protected at ground level where it is subject to mechanical damage (see photos pg. 15).



*Other considerations: *

* Burial depth is measured from the top of the conduit or cable to finished grade. If the trench is in an area where vehicles drive, trench depth must increase by an additional 6”from the depths shown above.

* If you have trouble digging to the required depth because of hitting solid rock, the minimum cover requirements are permitted to be reduced by 6” where mechanical protection is placed in the trench over the underground installation. Several materials are suitable but most commonly 2x6 pressure treated planking is used. (see photos)

* All underground wiring must have a marking tape placed ½ way into the backfill of the trench (see photo). This warning tape says “caution electric line below” (or similar) and is available at electrical wholesalers and some home improvement centers.

* Communications circuits run to the garage ( phone, CATV) – these cables must be in a separate conduit from the power. Inside the structures the communications cables must be spaced 2” away from any power cable.

* Electrical branch circuit wiring to the garage may be in the same trench as a gas sub-service line (the gas line from the house to the garage). It is recommended the two systems are separated by a 2X6 pressure treated plank. Note the minimum depth of burial for gas line is 15”.


----------



## Janger (Apr 16, 2017)

An electrician friend told me they were considering allowing higher loads on existing wires in the regulations - I'm a bit hazy on the details not my area - but anyway if this is true and I would have a knowledgeable electrician make the call - then you could potentially upgrade the breaker feeding the garage to 50A and get a 40A 220V welder breaker installed in the garage. Lots of if's here... maybe JohnW or Dabbler would know.


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 16, 2017)

Janger, that would be a legislated margin of safety thing.  Some states allow running 20A circuits on AGW 14 wire.  Gives me the willies.  If you've ever touched a 15A wire that has been under 14 amp load for any length of time you would be nervous about that development. In an insulated wall, running 14 amps for an hour on 14 AGW makes it quite warm - in open air, not much temperature rise.  

I haven't experienced the 40A/50A thing, but if your wiring is not conforming to the CEC, your insurance is void if there's a fire.


----------



## JohnW (Apr 16, 2017)

'fraid I'm not an electrician, so I really don't follow the electrical code rules. I'm just into electronics as well as machining, and I've built a bunch of stuff. It is all the same electrons, and most of the electrical code makes a lot of sense when you understand what the electrons want to do.

How much load you can put on a wire all has to do with heat. All wires have some resistance. For instance a 10 AWG wire is very nearly 0.001 ohms/foot. If you put 30A through that and use the formula V=IR, you will have a voltage drop of .001 x 30 = .030 volts. Power is V x I, so the wire will create .030 * 30 = .9 watts per foot. Since there will always be two conductors beside each other in a cable (hot and neutral), and they will each carry the same current (one to the load, and one from the load) there will actually be about 1.8W of heat generated in each foot of a 2-conductor 10AWG cable  @ 30A.

A thinner wire will have more resistance and generate more heat for the same current.

The code in terms of current and wire size is all about how much heat is safe to generate in those wires. When cables are combined in a conduit, the wires must be de-rated since more heat is being generated in one area. The code has tables for that. Wires for specific loads are not supposed to be loaded over something like 80% of their rated capacity to add additional safety. For instance only a 1500W heater can be fed by a 15A circuit using 14 AWG wire. Even though the circuit is rated for 1800W total, it must be de-rated to 1500W (12.5A). The electrical code has tables for all that sort of thing, and I would look it up before installing anything since I am not an electrician.

Since the wires are installed inside walls, even inside fiberglass insulation, that 1.8 Watt of heat per foot can raise the temperature significantly. The wires might also be in an outside wall facing south on a hot day where the wall itself might get up to 40C or more from the outside air and heat from the sun. It is not hard to see that the wire could then get up to 50C or more. If the wire gets too hot, the insulation can break down, or the building materials can start on fire.

There is also some safety margin built into the code to allow for less than perfect materials. That #10 wire may actually end up being a #12 for a foot or two somewhere along it's length because the copper wasn't drawn properly when it was manufactured. Physics doesn't care what the wire is labeled as, if it is thinner for a foot, it will generate maybe 3 or 4 watts along that foot. Tighter manufacturing tolerances could make it safe to push a bit more current through that #10 wire (with less safety margin).

When wires are installed outside, especially under ground, the heat is much less of an issue. There is much better cooling available and there is nothing that easily burns near the wire.

The code does change though. The building industry is always after thing that make it cheaper to build stuff. The safety people writing and approving the code in theory always put safety first, but they are supported by the same industry that wants lower costs. Materials change - maybe wire insulation that can take higher temperature or better manufacturing tolerances like I mentioned above - but physics does not change - that wire above can still create almost 2 watts per foot of heat.

I saw Dabbler's last post after I typed this in. I was doing some renos on a hot summer day once. The room had a large window air conditioner that was running flat out. I had just removed the wall that had the 14/2 wire that ran over to the air conditioner plug, but I didn't want to be without the AC for long. Once the wall was out I temporarily ran the circuit with the wire strung diagonally across the room near the ceiling in the open. When I felt the wire it was quite warm - maybe 40C in a room that was 25C!  The wire was complexly in the open with air all around it to help it stay cool. I ended up re-running that 15A, 14AWG circuit with 10 AWG wire and used a 20A breaker. It used to regularly blow the 15A breaker, so it was probably using an honest 15A. #12 wire would have been enough, but the price difference was small so I went with #10 wire. The new wire did not get noticeably warm.

One other note is that electrical code stuff is generally grandfathered. Your wiring only has to match the code that was in effect when it was installed and originally approved. If you change it, the portion you have changed usually needs to be brought up to current code. Old knob and tube wiring is still legal in an old building as far as I know. Bringing stuff up to current code is often a good idea for the additional safety though.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 16, 2017)

Electrically induced heat... now THERE's something I have first hand experience with taken to the limits. (Lithium polymer BBQ).
11.7v battery & about 150A... that's why we call these flying arc welders, ha-ha


----------



## John Conroy (Apr 16, 2017)

What kind of machine is that battery a part of Peter?


----------



## PeterT (Apr 16, 2017)

These are electric powered RC pylon racers, F5D class. They go about 350 km/hr. 10 laps around a long axis triangular course, its all over in 55-65 secs. These pics were 2008 WC's in Kiev, Ukraine.
My glory days (not so glorious actually).

This was the first year rules required what's called an energy limiter device. It logs volts & current & shuts power off at 1000 watt-min. That was to eliminate the non-limited 'abuse the battery to destruction' era. Kind of like in F1 saying: here is X volume of liquid fuel, go as fast as you can with whatever engine you design. But same catch - if you are set up super fast but run out of electron gas at only 9.5 laps, you'll get passed, so not good. OTOH if you set up more conservative for 11 laps = net slower, left useable energy in the pack, also risk getting passed, also not good. So its about motor wind kV spec-ing + prop tweaking + flying ability & a million other variables that generally drains your bank account. Kiev weather was brutal & very different altitude density.We still managed a 3rd, I have the expensive T-shirts, but have happily retired from all that


----------



## PeterT (Jul 19, 2017)

I recently required an electrician/panel specialist quote for a completely different residential job so took the opportunity to have him look at my garage situation. He pulled the cover from my house panel & noted 8 gauge wire feeding breakers/240v to the garage subpanel. (If I heard correct) he said that wire is typically minimum 40A, maybe a smidge more based on wire spec which he couldn't quite make out writing. He said it should be relatively straightforward  - come off the garage panel with a short external line to a dedicated wall outlet for welder & new breaker(s) which the sub-panel can accommodate with spare spots. As long as this can accommodate max TIG current draw, I think this is encouraging news.

So what I'm now wondering based on your experience:
- what is a typical cable length included for a TIG welder so I can verify reach vs. where I intend to set up?
- what is the outlet style I should be asking for? He mentioned NEMA 14-50 outlet, Box, 40 amp 240 as an example... but welders can have specific flavors so check first
- with no other 220V machines on while welding, just my 110v ceiling lights, does this sound like sufficient headroom for TIG's like Everlast referenced?  I don't foresee myself doing any heavy stuff & my definition of heavy might be 1/4" steel max
- is there anything that can be set on the welder itself to say trip or beep at 35A vs. having breakers trip, or they just don't work that way?
- I believe the garage sub-panel 80A rating is pretty meaningless in this case as the max current is dictated by the house panel delivery (other than the ability to add new breakers in the blanks). Am I correct in this thinking?


----------



## Dabbler (Jul 20, 2017)

So far I haven't heard the most important fact:  What is the rating of the breakers that feed the line to your garage?  My Tig  and my Mig both require a 220V 50A service.  When used in a typical situation  (not max power) most mig welders take 30-60% of the maximum current.  Thus a 50A service will suffice to run lights and welder in most situations.

I used the common dryer outlet rated for 50A in my shop.  That way I could get a relatively cheap (?) RV extension cord to move my welders anywhere I need them, even outdoors.  It is no problem and quite inexpensive to recable the welder for these outlets (if they aren't already - my tig, bought much later, already was wired that way)

The 80A rating on your panel is not very telling - only the feeding breakers from the house.  That's why I offered to come down and look.

So here is a partial list of things I would check:

1) current requirement for the welder I was interested in buying
2) feeder breaker - which should be 40A for 8 gauge wire, any more is out of code.
3) What load is already on the subpanel, i.e. breaker values, number of loads, etc.
4) overall check to ensure that all wires and breakers are correctly matched for rating and that loads don't exceed.

Regarding the magic of the Canadian Electrical Code and load centres:  I have a 60A breaker feeding a 6 ga underground cable to a 100A subpanel, I have 2-40A 220V breakers, 1 50A 220 V breaker and 6 or 7 15 A breakers, all in code and inspected.  I never have a problem because the total load never exceeds 40A, even with multiple machines turned on.

BTW I did all the wiring, under a homeowners permit, inspected without any violations.

I hope this helps.


----------

