# New machine day



## kylemp (Aug 8, 2016)

So I managed to find a few. New to me machines and picked them up Friday. 
First up - a Webb 618 surface grinder
Its certainly been rode hard and put away covered in abrasive, but we get it in and fired it up, ground two sides of a piece of stock and ended with 0.0008 total deviation across the piece. This was without any wheel dressing, balancing, chuck grinding or stoning. It's got one cover for the ways thays been snapped off so I'm not sure what I will do for that but after watching the rebuild by this old tony ( 



 ) I've got a little faith that if it needs work it's manageable. 


 


 




This will have much more to follow as time goes on I hope. 
I've never done surface grinding but I wanted the accuracy they allow for and ground surfaces just look beautiful. Now I have to get a granite plate and some better metrology equipment.

Number two is the big one.. I found a universal mill which I've been hunting for quite some time. It's a heckert weighing in at 1.7t, iso40 taper spindle, 3 axis infinitely variable power feed, 35-2500rpm variable drive for the spindle, 250x1000 travel I believe and even appears to have a power rotating table. This thing is a monster! I also managed to pick up some cat40 tooling which just requires a dog change to make it land in the spindle. The downside is that it's 550v so I picked up a 30kVa transformer as well but its 10hp for the spindle motor so I've got some work to do there.. This should do almost everything I need for machining for a long, long time. 


 


 




Questions and more details to come.


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## Dabbler (Aug 9, 2016)

They are neat finds - I was looking for a surface grinder myself;  One in Edmonton looked promising, but it had been used hard for over 25 years so I took a pass.

Good luck on your getting both these machines ready to go!


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## Colin L (Aug 12, 2016)

Nice machines indeed! Looking forward to hearing more about them once you've got them powered up.


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## PeterT (Aug 14, 2016)

Nice score. Particularly interested to see your surface grinder in action when she's all cleaned up. This Old Tony are some of my favorite vids, but I hope you determine your machine does not require that level of rebuild.


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## Janger (Aug 18, 2016)

How did you move the mill? Trailer? Fork Lift? Flat bed? Pallet Jacks? Not some thing for the back of the pick up I imagine?


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## kylemp (Aug 18, 2016)

The same way they built the pyramids Janger.. With a picker truck!

Its only 1.7t so it wasn't an issue for him to reach a bit and get it on the shop apron and from there moving it with a pallet jack isn't an issue.

I would strongly recommend using the dude who's moved my machines to anyone, great guy, 100/hr (2hr min) but its just not worth something going wrong over a couple hundred bucks. If anyone wants his number let me know.

I do have an update to this thread also, I built a 10hp rpc to power this thing and finally got the idler and fired it up today. No pictures of that yet but it did spool up and I got to move it around, it's going to take some getting used to as the second thing I did was bust an end mill off bu running the wrong feed.. It's not as intuitive as having one or two axis independent power feeds.

Theres some wiring to do so that I can have the power feeds independent of the spindle, they're driven by 2 separate motors but the control wiring has some fucked up drum switch that makes you have the spindle on and then bring it into power feed, then rapid.. To reverse the feed you have to shut it all down and then run the drum on the other selections but because it's an infinitely variable setup if you don't let the motor stop it will shear the shaft off, I've got some ideas of how I want to tackle it but I just want to use it right now.

The other pain in the ass is that the tslots on the table and metric and just a teeny tiny bit too small for my 7 clamping sets so I can either make new nuts, modify the nuts I have, or mill the table slots out.. That's still tbd at this point but I may just mill the slots to accept what I have.

I can quite honestly say having this much travel and 3 axis powered feeds is already making me quite happy just thinking about it. I do think I may start to miss having a quill but we're got the other mill (to be cnc'd) that can do those kind of operations.. One I run a 1/4in deep 6 in wide cut I think I will accept that I don't have a quill and I'm ok with it.

Oh, it also doesn't use a rotating screw but a rotating nut on this machine, I thought that was pretty slick. I did mill jthe end on something and it didn't seem to have any chatter, which may mean I can climb with no issues.. 

More to come, I won't have much chance to work on it until about the 29th but I will try to remember to take some pictures along the way.


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## Janger (Aug 19, 2016)

Like the pyramids. ! Ha

What DRO will you install? Or is there one already?


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## kylemp (Aug 19, 2016)

I don't have a dro yet for it, I've got a bunch of mitutoyo scales that should fit though and I think I'm going to go with the Yuri's toys touch setup and a tablet. Not sure though..


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 1, 2016)

Good find with the stuff - I am hunting for a surface grinder for a while now. It is pretty much an essential tool when you want to make your own machine parts.


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## Dabbler (Sep 1, 2016)

I have been looking for a surface grinder too....  Just missed one in Ontario, but I'll keep looking...


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## kylemp (Sep 2, 2016)

Updates!
I've got the phase converter up and running with the transformer. I'm not ashamed to say I'm scared of 600v so I've been quite careful, you don't often get 2nd chances with that kind of voltage.
I'm likely running too much voltage for the machine as the transformers lowest tap give me 208 to 570v, and I'm probably getting over 600 (550v machine) but Im not too concerned with it. The second time I ran the machine I managed to snap the variable speed feed belt off right away. It's the same as a cvt drive belt but really short and has no numbers on it. After quite a bit of investigation I figure it's a 1922v256, which meant absolutely nothing to me but I FINALLY found out what the numbers mean. I've attached the part coding information in case someone else runs into an issue.
These belts seem to be really hard to find in Calgary or Canada probably and not cheap (like 150 or so). I just ordered this morning from vbeltsupply.com and I'm hoping I get this thing within a week. The belt was only 22usd from them but the shipping was like 26, converted and paid it was 60 bucks.

I pulled the wheel off the grinder and found out that it's a balancing Gib which I'm happy about.. I'm not happy about some marring on the spindle nose though, once I clean it up and balance the wheel I'll see if its causing any issues.

I also bought another mill (of course I did) that's going to become a project. It's in a bit rough shape but the spindle sounded good, and it was cheap enough to justify.

More to come..


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## kylemp (Sep 8, 2016)

Not that this has anything to do with new machine day really, but I did pick up something else that I'm pretty happy with.. Ok, really happy with.
I stopped by the Calgary surplus place to take a look at a few things up and happened to find 3 map storage cabinets. These things are pretty much exactly what we've been looking for, they're massive (4' wide by 3' deep) with lots short drawers. I bought the 3 that were there but I'd suggest these for tooling storage to anyone.


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 8, 2016)

These cabinets look great! Can they take the weight? Maybe when I move to larger garage I get some - I usually strain even 100lbs drawers with steel. Get too much stuff from the states. But compared to local quality it is worth it.


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## kylemp (Sep 8, 2016)

They seem to be doing a good job so far, and I am pushing them already.. That was my concern also. That's a LOT of steel on one drawer, it's straining a little but it seems to be good with it.


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 8, 2016)

I see you have NMTB 40 taper tooling as well - looks like some shell mill holders. Some nice large end mills as well. I have similar weight class.


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## kylemp (Sep 8, 2016)

Yeah the mill is iso 40 but I've got 1/2 cat40 so I had to pull one of the drive dogs. The whole point of the bigger mill was bigger, deeper cuts and more rigidity.. So far, busting end mills  like they're free.


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 8, 2016)

I guess I am going to hijack the thread a bit - is it ISO40 as in NMTB40 with 5/8 thread on the draw bar? I know CAT40 has uneven drive dog bays or whatever the name is and thus you need to remove one or make your own drive dogs. BT40 is like CAT40 but with 16mm thread. Supposedly BT40 doesn't have uneven stuff for dogs.

I have two NMTB40s. Tool holders are super expensive. Chinese stuff seems like a waste some of the time - it is having "straightness" issues... but it is getting hard to find nice used NMTB stuff online.

Why are your endmills breaking? I only broken one and it was 3/16s. I also accidentally driven facemill in reverse. But other then that no issues. In mild steel I conservatively cut 1/3 of end mill diameter at most and I am making sure end mill doesn't stick out of the collet anything more then it needs. Ex 1/2 HSS end mill - speed is 600rpm and chip load say 0.002 for 5 inch / min feed with say 1/8 deep cut. Things get fun with facemills - people run some very fast depending on inserts... there is so much more to this since we only had HSS.


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## kylemp (Sep 8, 2016)

The iso or nmbt I believe are identical, but I'd have to check threads to confirm that.. Mine is (I believe)  5/8 threaded but I only have one or two manufactured holders in iso or nmbt. You're correct with the cat dogs, I just need to bring one down a bit to fit either, or I can just run one but that's not ideal on the 6 or 7 inch facemill I have. 

I keep breaking endmills because I keep ramming them into steel! 
I'm just getting used to the machine, I've only broke 2 so far but I think the wrong width belt is on the back of the machine so the variable speed isn't showing the actual rpm, I'll look into it but I just had to order a new one for the variable speed powefeed and they are not all that cheap compared to v belts, so I may just leave it if it's going to be 200 bucks or something. 

My preference is to run the endmills at the maximum depth of cut I can, on a 1/2 inch endmill I'll go for 1/4 doc or more, just really need to make sure your spindle speed is within range and your not feeding to heavy on it. This mill has all the controls in the front, and it's geared to rotating nuts on each axis I believe (at least the long axis is a rotating nut) which makes it harder to feel what is actually happening. I'm sure it'll get better as I get used to it.. Certainly can tell that there's 5x the horsepower there compared to my old Mill..


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 8, 2016)

I am wondering whatever we have the same machine or similar. Mine is a knee mill oversized Bridgeport with variable speed control on the head and 5hp. The other is a horizontal mill from the 1950s.


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## kylemp (Sep 10, 2016)

If you can get there this guy has cat40 tooling.. 
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-ind...ng/1197902763?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
He said he was going to put a list up of what he had (gauge blocks, boring head are gone for sure) he was around 130 for a cat40 drill chuck (which I'm looking for).


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## kylemp (Sep 12, 2016)

So I've got a bit of an issue. The power feed on one axis has the leadscrew sheared off.. Which shouldn't be that bad. Took me hours to get it out, eventually I had to drill and tap the stub that was left in the collar to pull it out, but it's done finally. The screw appears to me to be acme 8tpi lh thread, but my acme inserts don't seem to agree. Anyone know why this may be? Pictures attached.


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## PeterT (Sep 12, 2016)

Dumb question but is it a metric or imperial lead screw? I thought that metric trapezoidal threads were slightly different than acme, but admittedly this above my pay grade. Your insert vs actual looks more different than what this link suggests;  30 vs 29 deg included angle. Do you have a metric/imp pitch gage to check?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_thread_forms


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## Janger (Sep 12, 2016)

At maker faire we saw a booth with an optical comparator. I think the guy was from protospace. @Jwest7788, @Alexander do you remember who that was? It would make short work of measuring those threads...


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## kylemp (Sep 13, 2016)

PeterT said:


> Dumb question but is it a metric or imperial lead screw? I thought that metric trapezoidal threads were slightly different than acme, but admittedly this above my pay grade. Your insert vs actual looks more different than what this link suggests;  30 vs 29 deg included angle. Do you have a metric/imp pitch gage to check?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_thread_forms


I did look at trapezoidal but the machine is from England, and it's using all imperial. The trapezoidal is supposed to be essentially a acme, so the depth should be the same as an acme from what I understand. Theres still the option of grinding a tool to work, the lead is really the important factor but I don't want to make a sloppy screw and end up with a bunch of backlash. I could grind a profile tool probably, I just don't know what this thing is. 



Janger said:


> At maker faire we saw a booth with an optical comparator. I think the guy was from protospace. @Jwest7788, @Alexander do you remember who that was? It would make short work of measuring those threads...


I just about bought a comparator but then though to myself "what would I need one for?". As much as it goes against what I'm trying to do, I coukd bring it by a machine shop and see if anyone recognizes the thread form.


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## Jwest7788 (Sep 13, 2016)

Janger said:


> At maker faire we saw a booth with an optical comparator. I think the guy was from protospace. @Jwest7788, @Alexander do you remember who that was? It would make short work of measuring those threads...



I don't remember his name, but the guy that showed us how it worked was the same guy who made the can crusher that pretty much everyone knows about from protospace. Haha

@kylemp ,
Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to switch to acme screws?


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## Dabbler (Sep 13, 2016)

What does the dial on the lead screw say:  .100 per turn or .125, or 3mm?


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## kylemp (Sep 13, 2016)

125, so 8tpi


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## Dabbler (Sep 13, 2016)

It is possible that this is a standard 1" UNC thread, but it just has the points off.  If you are near a bolt place, buy a 1" NC nut and try it!  Cheap thread gauge...  On an British grinder my friend bought, it was a metric lead screw, but the angle was 45 degrees instead of 60.  I'm saying that it might be an adaptation of the standard thread...


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## kylemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Its been a while since I have done any updates to this thread.. lots has been going on.
To start with, the input shaft on the motor decided it didn't like the bolt that holds it all together and as such sheared it off way down inside of its threads (didn't take a picture). I couldn't really get in there with anything to get it out so I started trying to get the shaft free so I could get it in a better position to extract the sheared bolt. No dice. Ended up having to pull the entire gearbox for the powerfeeds and as expected, the last part to come out is the one I needed.



 


 


 



It wasn't a big deal after that, I bored out the bolt and then overbored the tapped hole in the shaft, and then brought it up to 3/8" NC. The harder part was re-assembly and getting everything aligned.. this machine has 2 x 24v shaft mount clutches to run the powerfeed and the rapid. I got everything back together and put it in the machine and it wouldn't fit.. the output bevel gear was causing just a bit of interference with the mating gear but enough I couldn't get the gearbox back in. She came back out and then I pulled the shims, threw it back in and it managed to line up pretty well perfectly.
Once that was all in place I tested it out. I had rapid, but no power feed.. After pulling it again I noticed one of the clutch discs had hopped up and wasn't allowing the clutch to activate. It's a lot of work to pull the gearbox and shafts to get back into it.. but in the end I managed to get it all fixed and back in the machine.

Next up, the weird threadform that I've been fighting. I'm not a machinist so half of this project is very new to me.. Its a left handed thread, its not a standard thread form from what I can find, it requires some special tool, etc. Since I don't really have a way to measure anything like that other than ACME and 60deg V threads I had to wing it a bit to grind a tool. I put the old leadscrew in a set of vblocks and put the setup on a surface plate, then used a protractor to try and get the angle for it. After that I put a piece of HSS in a toolmakers vise, used the protractor as a reference and then surface ground the tool. It really looked close as far as angles but the root was not looking quite right. A little grinding and it still wasn't 100% but thats not an easy feat. I decided to try cutting the thread and see how it really fit, I'd get a few passes in and it would start to look like a dual start thread for some reason. After talking with a machinist I know he said it could be from threading inch sizes on a metric lathe. I still don't understand this since its designed to do both, but for the entire operation I kept the half nut engaged and it seemed to work. The thread form is still something I don't understand, its about 18deg per side which I cannot find a thing that matches that.. although admittedly I have not opened the machineries handbook (google isn't actually great for this kind of thing). The hardest part of not being able to disengage the half nut is that it makes it quite difficult to clean up the thread to see how it fits since you are having to watch the carriage and make sure it isn't going to crash while you are trying to file and polish up the thread.. but in the end I got it. Its a quite snug fit, I could have tried to measure with threads but there seemed to be little point in this case since I would have been measuring from a worn thread to begin with and I don't know what the correct procedure is to measure a nut.. I imagine its a set of hermaphrodite calipers which I don't own, or something along those lines.




 


 


 




The final installment of this is my latest addition to my universal mill - A brand new 3 axis DRO from aliexpress. I found the best priced one I could, which had DHL shipping (total cost was around 250USD), gave them my total scale lengths for each axis and waited. Since the scales were not their typical sizes they had to cut them for me, it took around 5 days for them to get it to DHL and then somehow DHL shipped 2 of the 3 boxes and the other one took 3 extra days to catch up. It finally showed up on Monday, which I can say I was pretty excited about. The shipment was in 3 boxes, all well packed and no issues that I could see with them being damaged. I opened up the boxes and plugged it all in, the scales are shipped locked in place with plastic brackets and shims which I didn't want to pull off yet but since the accuracy is high enough I could push them slightly and the reading would show. I headed to the shop and started figuring out placement, and got the X axis scale installed as well as the DRO head. Personally, I am NOT a fan of drilling into my machinery, or really modifying it. I did manage to break off a drill in the machine but it worked out in the end, I still have 2 more to do which will be more difficult since they will require stand offs and more planning to mount but this gave me an example of what to expect. I also played around with the resolution on the scales, apparently I ordered 1um precision scales which I can set the readout to do. I need more digits on the readout to make that a realistic thing, but its just going to be incredibly frustrating if I keep them at that precision (.01mm is fine, .0001mm is too much in this case) so I will likely do .0005" or .01mm for the mill. Its looking like I am going to DRO EVERYTHING now.. this is just so much easier than dial indicators and in my case there is no good place to put a dial for my Z axis.


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## Jwest7788 (Dec 15, 2016)

I love the DHL Christmas wreath. Really does a good job of capturing the excitement of a christmas gift to oneself. haha

Great work! Is the new thread going to workout, you figure?

JW


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## kylemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Hopefully I'm going to get to machining the remainder soon and get it back in the machine. The nut itself will wear itself in so I'm not too concerned about the fit on it. Seems like there have been a few repairs on the machine I'm going to need to fix as well but it should do its job.


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## Janger (Dec 15, 2016)

DRO looks good. Is it this one? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New..._2&btsid=172130d7-139e-4a94-aabc-97c6bc53eb6f


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## kylemp (Dec 16, 2016)

Yeah thats the one. We played with the precision again I think theyre actually 5 micron scales just in case someone was expecting more accuracy.


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## John Conroy (Dec 16, 2016)

That machine is so much more complicated than my Bridgeport clone. Glad you got the gear train all sorted out. At least now you know how all those axis feeds work!

John


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## kylemp (Dec 16, 2016)

Yeah when you think about what it takes to power feed 3 axis from one motor it has to be complex.. but it works well.


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## Bofobo (Dec 17, 2016)

There are pins you buy to measure  threads. Tricky to manage three pins and a micrometer over an open chip pit to get accurate readings.  Rule one :never drop the pins


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## kylemp (Dec 18, 2016)

Bofobo said:


> There are pins you buy to measure  threads. Tricky to manage three pins and a micrometer over an open chip pit to get accurate readings.  Rule one :never drop the pins


I have thread pins but I didn't trust the old thread enough since it was bent and likely worn out too much to give me the kind of fit that I needed.. but you're right, that is the correct way to measure threads to make sure they fit the rest of the world.


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## kylemp (Sep 6, 2019)

To revive an old thread - I bought a new surface grinder! It's a very nice 10x20 ish 3 axis power fed machine. I've only gotten it into the shop and hooked everything up to make sure there are not issues that need to be resolved before trying to find a more permanent location for it. 







I did a quick video of trial grinding, unfortunately it didn't show the power downfeed at the end of the traverse, but it will grind all the way across and then downfeed and reverse, or straight plunge grind. Pretty happy so far..


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## Tom O (Sep 8, 2019)

That looks like a good machine.


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## Dabbler (Sep 14, 2019)

very nice!


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