# cutter grinder idea



## garageguy (May 19, 2022)

Guys, I have always wanted a grinder so I could resurect some of my end mills but grinders are usually too costly to be viable for a hobby guy like me. I have been pondering this dilemma for a while and the other day a bulb briefly flickered on in my brain. (dangerous , I know). A while ago I acquired an old Black and Decker Super Valve Service valve grinding machine. It runs, but it is missing a few pieces like the valve holder for grinding the end of the valve stem. Both stones are there as well as everything for refacing the valve. Before asking the big question, realize that I have not put a great deal of thought into this yet as I have alot going on right now, but,has anyone tried to adapt a valve grinder to grind end mill cutters? I am thinking only the end and not the side. What do you think? : doable ? stupid idea ? not worth the effort ? By the way I'm recently retired so would have some time for this in the future.


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## YYCHM (May 19, 2022)

Easy - End Mill Sharpening Jig Project
					

Not my invention, but it works well on 2 flt and 4 flt end mills 1/4" and larger and is a pretty easy project to build.  http://homews.co.uk/page121.html




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## Susquatch (May 19, 2022)

garageguy said:


> Guys, I have always wanted a grinder so I could resurect some of my end mills but grinders are usually too costly to be viable for a hobby guy like me. I have been pondering this dilemma for a while and the other day a bulb briefly flickered on in my brain. (dangerous , I know). A while ago I acquired an old Black and Decker Super Valve Service valve grinding machine. It runs, but it is missing a few pieces like the valve holder for grinding the end of the valve stem. Both stones are there as well as everything for refacing the valve. Before asking the big question, realize that I have not put a great deal of thought into this yet as I have alot going on right now, but,has anyone tried to adapt a valve grinder to grind end mill cutters? I am thinking only the end and not the side. What do you think? : doable ? stupid idea ? not worth the effort ? By the way I'm recently retired so would have some time for this in the future.



My own attitude on this prolly sucks, but at the basement cost of end mills these days, I'd rather buy new ones and spend my time doing other things. The only thing I grind anymore is lathe bits and fly cutter bits and boring bar bits.


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## Everett (May 19, 2022)

I'm curious to see what you come up with for modifications as I've often wondered the same thing. Considering how the machines needed to be precision setups to start with, it would make sense that modifying one should be further ahead than starting from scratch. 

And I totally hear you @Susquatch, as cheaper end mills are easy to come by, but it does sound like a fun challenge. That and I'd love to be able to resurrect my box full of 3/4" Us-made cobalt end mills as it would be a shame to toss them, lol


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## garageguy (May 21, 2022)

Thanks for all the replies. One other factor I have to deal with is simply availability. As far as I know there are no local suppliers for cutters and ordering them takes 7 to 10 days. Thats frustrating when in the middle of a job. Anyhow, I am going to look into this some more and will post updates later. Cheers.


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## Susquatch (May 21, 2022)

garageguy said:


> Thanks for all the replies. One other factor I have to deal with is simply availability. As far as I know there are no local suppliers for cutters and ordering them takes 7 to 10 days. Thats frustrating when in the middle of a job. Anyhow, I am going to look into this some more and will post updates later. Cheers.



Availability is an issue I think we all struggle with. It's one thing to get decent cutters but quite another to get one today.

I know it's not a good answer, but I tend to make volume orders for things I use a lot. I like to believe that this saves on shipping, unit cost, and timing.

I confess that a good tool grinder would be a great asset! I'm just not prepared to pay what they are going for. If I can ever find one at the right price I'll put a leash on it so it follows me home.


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## Janger (May 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I like to believe that this saves on shipping, unit cost, and timing.


I like to believe stuff like that too.


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## Mcgyver (May 23, 2022)

garageguy said:


> I am thinking only the end and not the side. What do you think?



I sharpen all my own cutters, and for endmills I most don't even bother sharpening the ends.   Unless you are plunging, you are cutting on the side of the end mill.  As I doubt plunging cuts are even 2% of what I do, its not worth it for most sharpening.  ITs also a bit of a pita to properly sharpen the ends compared to the sides.  

If you are sharpening the end, be aware the ends are not flat.  They have a degree or two of taper up to middle, leaving the middle with some slight clearance so it is not rubbing - the end angle in the diagram below


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## Degen (May 23, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> I sharpen all my own cutters, and for endmills I most don't even bother sharpening the ends.   Unless you are plunging, you are cutting on the side of the end mill.  As I doubt plunging cuts are even 2% of what I do, its not worth it for most sharpening.  ITs also a bit of a pita to properly sharpen the ends compared to the sides.
> 
> If you are sharpening the end, be aware the ends are not flat.  They have a degree or two of taper up to middle, leaving the middle with some slight clearance so it is not rubbing - the end angle in the diagram below


I'm going to add that the newer cutters are no-longer equally spaced, to greatly reduce chatter, however if you are sharpening manually, does add an no complexity to it.


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## garageguy (May 24, 2022)

So an option would be to just grind the end off until you get to sharp flutes again and not worry about the end. When the cutter gets too short toss it. which you would have to do anyhow.


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## Mcgyver (May 24, 2022)

You could, it would work and its how many come it at.  Its a lot of grinding, and it will need that centre relief angle.


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## Degen (May 24, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> You could, it would work and its how many come it at.  Its a lot of grinding, and it will need that centre relief angle.


Still working on the center relief cut for 4 flute cutters.


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## garageguy (May 25, 2022)

Good info. Nice to have a different perspective on what to do with these cutters and how to view prolonging their life. Thanks guys


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## garageguy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mcgyver , thanks for posting that diagram!


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## thestelster (Jun 5, 2022)

@mc
So how do you cut off the ends of endmills?  I have a whole whack of carbide endmills: 1/2", 3/8", and 1/4" which the tips are damaged, and I have to spend time searching for the one with the least damage.


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## RobinHood (Jun 5, 2022)

SpinDexer and a diamond cut-off disc. Then use a diamond grinding wheel to shape the ends like in the above diagram (post #8).


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## thestelster (Jun 5, 2022)

Thank you @RobinHood


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## SparWeb (Jun 5, 2022)

If it's more than one or two, I would choose to have them sharpened, not do it myself.
If in Alberta, ask Allblades how much it costs to sharpen "X" number of "Y"-fluted endmills.  








						Contact - All Blades Canada Inc. - Alberta's Blade Sharpening Experts
					

Contact our team at All Blades if you have any questions regarding your tools. We're happy to help provide recommendations for your projects, big or small.




					allblades.ca
				



If you're elsewhere in Canada, you may find a local sharpening service.


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## Susquatch (Jun 6, 2022)

SparWeb said:


> If it's more than one or two, I would choose to have them sharpened, not do it myself.
> If in Alberta, ask Allblades how much it costs to sharpen "X" number of "Y"-fluted endmills.
> 
> 
> ...



This seems like a very practical and potentially cost effective solution. 

If there is such an outfit out west, it only makes sense that there would by one or two in the east too. 

Have you ever used them yourself or this something you ran across and are thinking about?  Can you vouch for them?


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## SparWeb (Jun 6, 2022)

I have used their service myself from time to time.  A friend of mine did more regularly, running a HAAS CNC, and I remember him sticking with them for a while.  Back then he had "batch" projects that would use up tooling, then he'd fix or replace things that broke, or sharpen what was dull, to be ready for the next lot.


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## Susquatch (Jun 7, 2022)

SparWeb said:


> I have used their service myself from time to time.  A friend of mine did more regularly, running a HAAS CNC, and I remember him sticking with them for a while.  Back then he had "batch" projects that would use up tooling, then he'd fix or replace things that broke, or sharpen what was dull, to be ready for the next lot.



Sounds good. I'll see if I can find an outfit like that around here. 

I can't really see myself sharpening end mills myself. Heck, I can't even sharpen a drill bit decently. Sure, they work, but nothing beats a 15 minute trip to Varco for a brand new high quality drill bit. Saving up all my end mills and drill bits for an occasional trip to a sharpening outfit makes a lot of sense to me.


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## thestelster (Jun 7, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Sounds good. I'll see if I can find an outfit like that around here.
> 
> I can't really see myself sharpening end mills myself. Heck, I can't even sharpen a drill bit decently. Sure, they work, but nothing beats a 15 minute trip to Varco for a brand new high quality drill bit. Saving up all my end mills and drill bits for an occasional trip to a sharpening outfit makes a lot of sense to me.


I've reached out to F&J Cutter Grinding in Brampton, Ontario.  They responded right away, but they're on holidays this week, and she would get back to me with prices next week.


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## Susquatch (Jun 7, 2022)

thestelster said:


> I've reached out to F&J Cutter Grinding in Brampton, Ontario.  They responded right away, but they're on holidays this week, and she would get back to me with prices next week.



Sounds awesome! Please keep me posted. I'll keep looking closer too. So far all I've found is knife sharpening.


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## garageguy (Jun 7, 2022)

finding someone to sharpen endmills might be the way to go, especially if they are nearby. If anybody knows of a sharpening service in sask. let me know. I have 4 1" cutters that I think would be worth sharpening as well as a few smaller ones. Looking forward to hearing cost estimates.


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## garageguy (Jun 7, 2022)

OK, did some phoning around and found a sharpening service in Regina. 100 mi. away but he estimated $20 to sharpen a 4 fl. HSS 1" end mill. I thought it's not out of line considering the cost of new cutters. Going to give him a try.


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## Dan Dubeau (Jun 7, 2022)

For the Ontario guys I send all our cutters from work to RME in Guelph, and they always do a great job, at a fair price.  They do coatings too, and have in the past put a nose custom radius on endmills for us along with laser engraved the size on the shank.  First rate professional job.  Never had an issue.

https://www.rmepvd.com/

We typically save up and send them a big pile to do, once or twice a year or whenever we need them.

Before using RME I had a batch of endmills sharpened by some guy with a cutter grinder in his garage.  I could have done better with a bench grinder.  They were completely useless, and he was a ghost in the wind about it.  RME was only slightly more money and worth every penny.

For context I just dug through some emails for some #'s.  A brand new 1/2" 4flute Niagra bright finish std carbide endmill is $27 (todays purchase), and to have that same endmill sharpened (dia/ends depending on requirements) is $14 (price from last order in late 2021). 

I typically won't send anything below 3/8" to get sharpened as it's not really worth it, but have in the past as having undersized tooling is helpful to have around sometimes.  This is for CNC work, so I can adjust offsets to dial in whatever cutter size I have.


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## thestelster (Jun 7, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> For the Ontario guys I send all our cutters from work to RME in Guelph, and they always do a great job, at a fair price.  They do coatings too, and have in the past put a nose custom radius on endmills for us along with laser engraved the size on the shank.  First rate professional job.  Never had an issue.
> 
> https://www.rmepvd.com/
> 
> ...


Excuse me??? Where are you getting those 1/2" Niagara's from?  KBC price is $91.91!!


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## Dan Dubeau (Jun 7, 2022)

If I told you I'd have to keeeel you lol. Just keeeeding.  

They are not branded "Niagara" They are generic "made in USA", but I've heard from a few different people (tool vendors) they are in fact made by Niagara.  The truth?  I'm not 100% sure, and I probably shouldn't have said Niagara without knowing for sure TBH.  I use them for general purpose milling of O1, and other tool steels, and they perform the same for my needs as the more expensive "branded" ones (except for a few) I've tried over the years, so I've never bothered to look elsewhere.  For aluminum I use actual Niagara branded 3 flute high helix endmills, and they are amazing.  More $$, but they are worth every penny for aluminum.

KBC price IMO is generally more expensive than what you can get from some industrial suppliers for generic things like endmills/drills if you have a decent volume.  We have a guy that we've dealt with for a very long time for stuff like this as well as quite a lot of the other products/hardware we use.  I'll ask him if he doesn't mind his name getting out there before posting it up.  I know some of our other tool vendors don't like small/hobbiest accounts.  We're not a big high volume customer, a small shop really, but it does pay to shop around and develop some relationships with vendors of frequently used tooling.  

This is one of those endmills, that has been reground by RME on both dia, and length a few times now.








After typing this post, and looking at actual branded Niagara endmills I DO have in stock, I'm not so sure anymore.  I know there are a ton of variables/models/lines etc, but there are far more differences....For all I know now, these could be rebaged chinese endmills, and he's been pulling the wool over us for years lol.  Either way, I've always been happy with them.


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## Degen (Jun 8, 2022)

Think I've figured out how to the center cutting grind in the Deckel clone.  Bought the cupped wheel and will likely do a test grind this weekend.

Only working on Carbide, wheels for HSS bits cost more than those for carbide.

Once I've got it figured out I share the method.


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## thestelster (Jun 18, 2022)

thestelster said:


> I've reached out to F&J Cutter Grinding in Brampton, Ontario.  They responded right away, but they're on holidays this week, and she would get back to me with prices next week.


Here is the response from F&J regarding endmill sharpening:

Pricing to sharpen endmills:

1/2" carbide endmill, sharp corner $13.50 each
3/8" carbide endmill, sharp corner $10.50 each
>5/16" carbide endmill, sharp corner $8.75 each

Thank you!


*Teresa Alonzi, B.A., P.F.P
Account Manager*
F&J Cutter Grinding Service
1 Delta Park Blvd, Unit 10+11 | Brampton, ON L6T 5G1
P: 905-791-4721 | F: 905-791-8610
info@cuttergrinding.com | www.cuttergrinding.com


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Here is the response from F&J regarding endmill sharpening:
> 
> Pricing to sharpen endmills:
> 
> ...



Good stuff! 

Do you think this pricing would apply to broken end mills too? What if I cut and pregrind them flat? 

Did she mention minimum quantities and/or turnaround timing? 

Are you gunna give it a go?


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## thestelster (Jun 18, 2022)

She didn't mention minimums.  Yes, I think I'll send a bunch of them.  I have 16-1/2" carbide endmills that need sharpening, as well as 3/8", and 1/4".  Maybe I'll send them 5 of each size for now.


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## Hacker (Jun 18, 2022)

If you are in the Edmonton area and are looking for a sharpening service there is:
Williams Horst Quality Grinding
10349 59 Ave Nw, Edmonton,
780-437-0234


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## garageguy (Jun 19, 2022)

stelster, those prices seem Ok to me. I don't have much carbide, but I'd pay that to get my cutters tuned up. let us know how it works out


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