# Thar's Yer Problem!



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

With all the cold weather in Calgary even working in a heated shop is taxing. So I've turned my energy to household repairs lately. Finally got around to replacing the oven burner tubes in my Ultraline/Viking gas range. No more popping sounds and it gets to 400 degrees in 13 mins instead of an hour. Huge difference. Also installed new ignitors as mine are due for another replacement soon anyways.

This is a 20+ year old range that's had it problems. But it's pretty basic. Years ago the pan assembly in the oven gave out and it was pretty dramatic: huge bang when the spot welds failed. I tig'd it back to life and it's still going strong. It's one of those appliances you say, "next time something fails I'm buying a new one," but then you realize its DIY fixable and you can get parts so you hang on to it.

We bought this range when we had the house built. No electronic ignition and no flame sensor like a furnace; the ignitors just stay on all the time when the gas valve is open. They look to be wired in series so I suspect that the gas valve won't open if one is burnt out. But that extra ignitor heat next to the gas holes in the burner tube tends to accelerate deterioration, so you end up with these "blown out" holes in the tubes (see pic). Still, 20 years ain't bad....

I considered patching the tubes, which is kinda fun, but meticulous work. I've done this on multiple natural gas and propane BBQs over the years. Sand, cut, tig, drill. Repeat. But after 20 years, I bought the range a birthday present instead and ordered two new ones.  

Anyways, all fixed and working like new. 10 bucks says the thermostat goes next


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

From what I've heard from numerous people is that new ovens are not very reliable and I know myself parts can be hard to get for older stoves.  I tried getting some electronic parts for my 20 year old stove awhile ago and was told that was too old to get parts for.  I commented that a person shouldn't need parts until they get at least that old...and the repairman told me to look around his shop at all the newish appliances in for repair and that 90% of his business was warranty repair!  

By the way....you wouldn't happen to know much about gas burner design would you????  I've been trying to make a little homemade propane burner for a steam engine and I can't seem to get it right.  I'm totally flying by the seat of my pant but thought I might be able to trial and error it but it's not going so well.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

Agree 100% with you about new appliances and warranty work. I made be a tad on the conspiracy side of things as I get older but swear this is done on purpose: if it works well they retire the model. The money is in parts and service, just like cars. I am ashamed to say I made fun of older retired people when I was younger. Now I see their value and realize that you don't need to reinvent the wheel constantly when something is working, as many of them used to say. I could cite hundreds of consumer examples but most come down to greed: find a way to make more money from consumables, parts and labour. Something simple that works well and you can fix yourself is bad for business. So sad.

Sorry I don't know much about burner design. I did make a pulse jet engine once though  I'm guessing that might be a little too loud though.

Best of luck. Please post when you dial it in.


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> Agree 100% with you about new appliances and warranty work. I made be a tad on the conspiracy side of things as I get older but swear this is done on purpose: if it works well they retire the model. The money is in parts and service, just like cars. I am am ashamed to say I made fun of older retired people when I was younger. Now I see their value and realize that you don't need to reinvent the wheel constantly when something is working, as many of them used to say. I could cite hundreds of consumer examples but most come down to greed: find a way to make more money from consumables, parts and labour. Something simple that works well and you can fix yourself is bad for business. So sad.
> 
> Sorry I don't know much about burner design. I did make a pulse jet engine once though  I'm guessing that might be a little too loud though.
> 
> Best of luck. Please post when you dial it in.


My gosh we must be twins separated at birth cuz your statement above sounds exactly like it would of came out of my mouth! LOL.

Oooo! Pulse jet engine sounds fun.

Here is a pic of the burner not working correctly so far.  I know I need to get more air mixed in with the flame but I'm also missing something on pressure, jet size, burner hole size and pretty much anything else that is involved. Oh well I'm working on the back up plan ( solid fuel burner)


----------



## YYCHM (Mar 5, 2019)

> ="DPittman, post: 13202, member: 38"]Oooo! Pulse jet engine sounds fun.



Pulse Jet Engine...… now that brings back memories.   We had access to a Pulse Jet in junior high shop.  Don't know why but we did.  Was great fun to fire up.  Noisy as all get out.


----------



## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2019)

DPittman said:


> My gosh we must be twins separated at birth cuz your statement above sounds exactly like it would of came out of my mouth! LOL.
> 
> Oooo! Pulse jet engine sounds fun.
> 
> Here is a pic of the burner not working correctly so far.  I know I need to get more air mixed in with the flame but I'm also missing something on pressure, jet size, burner hole size and pretty much anything else that is involved. Oh well I'm working on the back up plan ( solid fuel burner)View attachment 4612


Dumb question- 

Why not just rob the burner from an old camp stove or similar? Cut it to length and plug the end of it?


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Pulse Jet Engine...… now that brings back memories.   We had access to a Pulse Jet in junior high shop.  Don't know why but we did.  Was great fun to fire up.  Noisy as all get out.


My first intro to pulse jets was in junior high school in SW calgary. They aren't hard to build, finding the spring steel for the one moving part was the toughest. There is this crazy New Zealand guy called Bruce Simpson who literally wrote the book on DIY pulse jets: http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/ He even came up with a way to reverse electroplate the valve with a car battery. Brilliant.

My wife banned me from making pulse jets. The neighbourhood shakes and they think I am making a bomb.

I need a rural property.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

DPittman said:


> )View attachment 4612



HUmmmm.....I see your issue. Wish I knew more, but clearly the flame colour is off. What are you using for a regulator? 

Tough to see w/o scale, but those holes look a tad large for propane. Are you experimenting or did you spec them?


----------



## YYCHM (Mar 5, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> My first intro to pulse jets was in junior high school in SW calgary. They aren't hard to build, finding the spring steel for the one moving part was the toughest. There is this crazy New Zealand guy called Bruce Simpson who literally wrote the book on DIY pulse jets: http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/ He even came up with a way to reverse electroplate the valve with a car battery. Brilliant.
> 
> My wife banned me from making pulse jets. The neighbourhood shakes and they think I am making a bomb.
> 
> I need an rural property.



http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/


Yes. Heard about this.

This guy should be knighted, or whatever we do here in Canada. Tim's card maybe.


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

Chicken lights said:


> Dumb question-
> 
> Why not just rob the burner from an old camp stove or similar? Cut it to length and plug the end of it?


Well not dumb question at all.  I haven't been able to find a burner of the right dimensions,  I need it to be pretty small (4" long and real narrow).  Any burners I can think of are wrong dimensions and I need the orfice/jet and mixing chamber matched accordingly.  

I thought it would be fun to make my own but as I feared, there is more to burner design than what my experiences lend to.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

DPittman said:


> Well not dumb question at all.  I haven't been able to find a burner of the right dimensions,  I need it to be pretty small (4" long and real narrow).  Any burners I can think of are wrong dimensions and I need the orfice/jet and mixing chamber matched accordingly.
> 
> I thought it would be fun to make my own but as I feared, there is more to burner design than what my experiences lend to.



Did you see this:


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

Ya I saw that one too and he made it look pretty simple!  I need to try out a few things he suggested.  Maybe I'm over thinking things.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

You'll be an expert by the time you are done. That's the fun of it. Best of luck.


----------



## RobinHood (Mar 5, 2019)

DPittman said:


> Here is a pic of the burner not working correctly so far. I know I need to get more air mixed in with the flame but I'm also missing something on pressure, jet size, burner hole size and pretty much anything else that is involved. Oh well I'm working on the back up plan ( solid fuel burner)


Maybe this might help you trouble shoot your burner...


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

RobinHood said:


> Maybe this might help you trouble shoot your burner...


Hey thanks for that. I'm sure that will be good and helpful info.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

BTW - I once had to drill hundreds of small holes in tubing and found these drill guides that conform to the tube's diameter to be super useful. Probably overkill for a one-off though:  https://www.shop.biggatortools.com/Drill-Guides_c3.htm


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 5, 2019)

DPittman said:


> Hey thanks for that. I'm sure that will be good and helpful info.



@DPittman - one last thought from someone who knows little about burners. It occurs to me that on your burner as well as on the the vid I posted there is an air adjustment needed. Yours has none, and the guy in the vid is stuffing things in the tube to kludge it. Then I remembered my tubes have an adjustment for this very reason and I have in fact used it to dial in the mixture before. Here's a pic of my tube. Note the hole is on both sides and you fine tune it by loosening the screw and sliding the cover back and forth. It would be easy to fab this with Dremmel or mill and some 22 gauge sheet metal plus a screw.

You can have my blown out tubes if you want a better look at the design.


----------



## DPittman (Mar 5, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> @DPittman - one last thought from someone who knows little about burners. It occurs to me that on your burner as well as on the the vid I posted there is an air adjustment needed. Yours has none, and the guy in the vid is stuffing things in the tube to kludge it. Then I remembered my tubes have an adjustment for this very reason and I have in fact used it to dial in the mixture before. Here's a pic of my tube. Note the hole is on both sides and you fine tune it by loosening the screw and sliding the cover back and forth. It would be easy to fab this with Dremmel or mill and some 22 gauge sheet metal plus a screw.
> 
> You can have my blown out tubes if you want a better look at the design.


Hmnn I seemed to have missed a few post until just now...
My burner holes are really quite small -I did have them too large in a previous version but I don't think they are now.  Just winging it.

I am using a valve from a tiny camp stove and that goes on those small little disposable propane/butane tanks that one uses with little camp stoves.  I'm not sure if that is actually a regulator or not but the camp stoves run with just that.  Although my picture doesn't show it, I do have a sliding cover that goes over the air intake,  it didn't seem to make much difference until I corked it completely off then it would go out.  I think my air ratio/mixing is where my problem is.  I'm going to start at square one again.


----------



## Tom O (Mar 6, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> My first intro to pulse jets was in junior high school in SW calgary. They aren't hard to build, finding the spring steel for the one moving part was the toughest. There is this crazy New Zealand guy called Bruce Simpson who literally wrote the book on DIY pulse jets: http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/ He even came up with a way to reverse electroplate the valve with a car battery. Brilliant.
> 
> My wife banned me from making pulse jets. The neighbourhood shakes and they think I am making a bomb.
> 
> I need a rural property.


The last time I looked he was making a cruise missle gps type drone if it’s the same guy.


----------



## Dabbler (Mar 6, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> I need a rural property.


 I know what you mean.   So do I!


----------



## CalgaryPT (Mar 8, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> I know what you mean.   So do I!


LOL - Dabbler - I've seen your place. You need a whole section


----------



## Dabbler (Mar 8, 2019)

yes, yes I do.


----------

