# Carbide insert holders for AXA tool post



## calgaryguy (Mar 23, 2022)

My recently acquired Utilathe 9" came with an unused/NiB HHIP AXA toolpost. I should have the T-nut machined to fit my compound by Friday.

I'm starting to look at adding some carbide insert tool holders. Any suggestions on a not-cheap-but-not-kennametal option for a starter 'set' of insert holders?

Also, what brand inserts to buy and from whom?


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## Janger (Mar 23, 2022)

If you’re in a hurry accusize seems to be a pretty good bet for tooling. If you can be patient Ali express has similar tooling for less - way less. Look at mzg and nicecutt. There are a lot of posts on the forum on this topic. Other people have other favourite suppliers. Bangood. I often buy specialty items from serious suppliers. Thomas skinner, source Atlantic. It’s often next day and very high quality. Trouble with high quality is breaking a $25 carbide spot drill 3 times in a row is a calamity. on the other hand busting a cheap tap on a part you’ve put hours into is even more frustrating. Still for EMs and inserts I prefer mid grade Chinese because breakage is not such a big deal.


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## PeterT (Mar 23, 2022)

I've gravitated to CCMT for bulk of what I do (14x40) lathe & I think it makes an excellent starter system. They fit the nominal range 1/2-5/8" square shank tools for lathe (actually they can be metric like 10,12,14mm but of no consequence in teh dovetail type toolpost). Exact same insert works on wide range of boring bars. Come in endless variety of nose radius, coating, chip breaker, material preference... Years ago I started out buying from KBC onsey-twosey & the likes when they come on sale. Now I buy from Ebay/AliExpress almost exclusively. Korloy has been a pretty dependable name. BTW the N-Am sizing standard is 21.x I believe but the metric standard when you go looking is something like 060202 (inscribed circle dimension). Here is a random cheat sheet of when I was shopping around a while back. Probably dated information by now. Some of the shipping from China is getting pretty fast, but you do have to exercise a bit more patience.

I also use DCMT but more orientated to certain tool positions I have to get into on specific parts.


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## PeterT (Mar 23, 2022)

More random notes. I also seem to recall some of the big name toolholders have a slightly different hold down fastener (thread pitch) but my memory is faded. Maybe a way to keep you shopping on their site. The Ali/Ebay are also torx but common pitch. Anyway, the holders are spit cheap, get a bag of screws while you're at it. Sometimes the combo deal with various holders + pack of inserts is a good deal, sometimes not. I sampled some inserts specifically for stainless & was pleasantly surprised, they cut well & do a better job on regular crap 1018. You just have to play with the variables a bit & your machine factors too.

I do know that some of the big name toolholders are better material, no doubt. I think the Ali type stuff is semi-hardened 4140 equivalent if I had to guess. Whether that makes a difference on your machine you just have to decide for yourself.


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

What carbide holder shank size should I be running in my AXA on my 9" utilathe? I assume thicker is better up to the capacity of the tool holder? It would seem 1/2" and 5/8" are available?

EDIT: I just measured my toolpost holders and they are 35/64" tall, so I'm limited to 1/2" shank, at least with these holders. I see accusize has a 5/8" toolpost holder available for AXA.





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						AXA 5/8" Oversize 250-101XL Quick Change Turning Facing Lathe Tool Post Holder : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

AXA 5/8" Oversize 250-101XL Quick Change Turning Facing Lathe Tool Post Holder : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca
				




I realize that I am in a 'connected graph' of limitations on the size of toolholder, cutter, depth of cut, material being cut, lathe speed, lathe torque (better now with 3/4hp), overall lathe compound rigidity, etc etc. I'm simply trying to familiarize myself with what will *likely* work well based on all your experiences... "Caveat Emptor" applies as always.


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

You can run 5/8 in your AXA, you'll just need to machine a couple mm off the bottom of the tool holder

That being said, I'm not sure how well 0 rake inserts will run in your 9"...Wich is usually what the 5/8 and bigger holders are for....I would try one and if they work well, roll 0 rake inserts, double the cutting corners for the same cost


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

21PCS Lathe Turning Tool 7 Set 12mm Shank Indexable Carbide Turning Inserts Lathe Threading Tool Holder Boring Bar Industrial for Finishing Operations https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09B3H5BZF/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_PR19W2V5NYX8NX38X2C1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

I ran this set with my 9", it was ok, miles better than hss, but the corners on neg rake inserts arent very tough, and I'm pretty sure you can get that set cheaper on ali


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

phaxtris said:


> You can run 5/8 in your AXA, you'll just need to machine a couple mm off the bottom of the tool holder
> 
> That being said, I'm not sure how well 0 rake inserts will run in your 9"...Wich is usually what the 5/8 and bigger holders are for....I would try one and if they work well, roll 0 rake inserts, double the cutting corners for the same cost


Is this a 'zero rake' (aka 'positive rake) holder?














						SCLC R/L Toolholders for CCMT Inserts
					

The Accusize lathe tool holder is commonly used as the following tools (and solutions): lathe tool holder, turning, carbide insert, facing tool, indexable lathe tool, indexable turning tool, lathe tool, lathe tool holder 1/2, lathe tool holder bxa, lathe tool holder rack, lathe tool holder 5/8...




					accusizetools.com


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

I could be wrong on the terminology, but I understand zero rake inserts are the ones that the cutting edge is 90deg, and the rake is in the tool holder, the one in you pictures use a positive (or maybe it's negative) rake inserts, so the clearance angle is built into the carbide..aperantly they take less HP ? But I find them to be not very tough and you end up with say 2 cutting edges on one insert vs 4 on a zero rake insert...makes a differance to me as I usually turn scrap


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

I'm confused as to the terminology too.

This pic intuitively looks like 'negative rake'





This pic looks like 'Zero Rake'







Please clarify and correct as you see fit...


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

That first holder uses zero rake inserts (cnmg, wnmg etc)...the rake is in the holder (clearance angle)....the insert has no "top", you can flip it over and use both sides

The second holder uses positive (or neg, I don't remember) inserts (ccmt, dcmt, etc)...the rake is in the insert (clearance angle)....the insert has a "top" and only that side of corners can be used


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

OK, so I had it ass backwards. When talking about 'rake' we are talking about the actual carbide inserts having 'rake' or not, correct? IE: a CCMT insert has some 'rake' or relief under its cutting edge, whereas, say, a TNMG insert has no relief under its cutting edge and therefore requires a tool holder that imparts a rake/relief under the cutting edge.


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

calgaryguy said:


> OK, so I had it ass backwards. When talking about 'rake' we are talking about the actual carbide inserts having 'rake' or not, correct?



Yea that's right, I'm talking about the inserts themselves, whattever insert style you end up going with dictates the holder you use

I would base your choice on what insert style you want to run, you can make a 16mm holder fit an AXA


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

phaxtris said:


> Yea that's right, I'm talking about the inserts themselves, whattever insert style you end up going with dictates the holder you use
> 
> I would base your choice on what insert style you want to run, you can make a 16mm holder fit an AXA


I ordered a 5/8" AXA toolpost holder from amazon for $25 and a TNMG insert holder for $39 to try out. I'm sure I'll grow tired of paying amazon prices soon enuf, but <$50 and prime next day is awful tempting right now since I have basically no tooling. ...


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

calgaryguy said:


> I ordered a 5/8" AXA toolpost holder from amazon for $25 and a TNMG insert holder for $39 to try out. I'm sure I'll grow tired of paying amazon prices soon enuf, but <$50 and prime next day is awful tempting right now since I have basically no tooling. ...



Hey right on man, that'll get you going, I have a tnmg holder, i find it to be an odd shaped cutter, but it has its uses and it definitely still cuts

And yea your right Amazon prices will get old, but sometimes spending the extra few bucks to get it the next day is well worth it, plus now that you will have something that cuts it's a lot easier to get by and wait for the slow boat from china (really not that slow, between 1 and 3 weeks on average)


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

The lathe did come with a *tiny* carbide tool holder, I think 1/4" shank and some inserts. I'll get a pic.


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## PeterT (Mar 24, 2022)

TNMG are triangular inserts, not rhombic/trapezoidal like CCMT & generally larger overall size. Nothing wrong with them in the lathe, but they probably wont offer you any other advantage & aren't as common for boring bars due to their size whereas CCMT are.

Here are some sketches of terminology. The negative/neutral/positive rake is the relationship of tool tip to work. That is independent of relief angle which is clearance behind the tool tip. Same terminology as conventional HSS tools, that hasn't changed. But its not correct to assume the rake is always 90-deg to the flat datum of the insert & the only way to vary that is angling the insert seat. It is that way for some inserts, but not always. Here is a positive rake insert I use for aluminum. mounts on same toolholder. You need to find a catalog diagram & use the letter designation.


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## PeterT (Mar 24, 2022)

These are the styles of CCMT type boring bars I was referring to. Will fit the same toolholder carriers you are considering for square shank lathe tooling & of course same insert


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> TNMG are triangular inserts, not rhombic/trapezoidal like CCMT & generally larger overall size. Nothing wrong with them in the lathe, but they probably wont offer you any other advantage



You get 6 useable cutting edges on a TNMG tho dont you?


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## PeterT (Mar 24, 2022)

Ah, yes, that may be one point in favor. I think they are but it may not be a given in all cases. For example if they have positive rake maybe? wouldn't lend themselves to being supported inverted on flat of toolholder datum. Maybe someone who runs them can answer. Ultimately I guess its $/cutting corner. I find them to be very long lasting, but varies my work & materials.


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Ah, yes, that may be one point in favor. I think they are but it may not be a given in all cases. For example if they have positive rake maybe? wouldn't lend themselves to being supported inverted on flat of toolholder datum. Maybe someone who runs them can answer. Ultimately I guess its $/cutting corner. I find them to be very long lasting, but varies my work & materials.



TNMG has no rake/0 clearance angle to the insert, that's what the N stands for

I have one tool holder with a tnmg insert, the insert is very big, you would have to have one heck of a big boring bar to use that style of insert in it...unless they make a smaller tnmg than the one I have


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

A little offtopic, but first machining steps done on AXA toolpost threaded base insert. Waiting on a set of machinist parallels to arrive today to finish the 'T' shapes


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## PeterT (Mar 24, 2022)

phaxtris said:


> TNMG has no rake/0 clearance angle to the insert, that's what the N stands for
> I have one tool holder with a tnmg insert, the insert is very big, you would have to have one heck of a big boring bar to use that style of insert in it...unless they make a smaller tnmg than the one I have



Yeah sorry I just meant triangular inserts in general. Having said this they call these TNMG with positive rake & double sided, so who knows. I'm less familiar with them. I've seen them used in boring heads shanks but not in boring bars per se, due to size & geometry.




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						CMT Industrial Solutions
					

‎0081-5508132 TNMG 332-PP IC8250 Iscar Insert




					www.cmtindustrial.com
				




My boring bar reference was more of a consideration on the side of smaller CCMT (rhombic shaped) inserts. I use the exact inserts between my lathe tools & boring bars. BTW you can get pretty small min diameter boring tools for CCMT like the picture link I posted. I find the shank size range lends itself quite well to my size lathe, BXA type tool post.


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

FYI, here's the very small carbide tool holders that came in the box of odds and ends with my lathe. Look to be 1/4" shank?

If anyone can use these and about 7-8 extra TCMT inserts that look like they fit the holders in the Calgary area they are yours for the asking.


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Yeah sorry I just meant triangular inserts in general. Having said this they call these TNMG with positive rake & double sided, so who knows. I'm less familiar with them. I've seen them used in boring heads shanks but not in boring bars per se, due to size & geometry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh yea i agree triangle inserts would probably not be a great shape for a boring bar, i dont think i have seen a boring bar for triangle inserts, i do have a set for those itty bitty ccmt inserts tho..

but i dont think you can do everything with one shape, no matter what a guy is going to end up with a couple shape inserts, a decent sized turning ccmt is going to make a pretty big boring bar, and vise versa



calgaryguy said:


> FYI, here's the very small carbide tool holders that came in the box of odds and ends with my lathe. Look to be 1/4" shank?
> 
> If anyone can use these and about 7-8 extra TCMT inserts that look like they fit the holders in the Calgary area they are yours for the asking.
> View attachment 22384



oh yes those are tiny, like 7x lathe size


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## 140mower (Mar 24, 2022)

Sometimes it takes a small cutter to get into the tighter spots....... The only tools I don't use are the ones I don't have.


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## eotrfish (Mar 24, 2022)

calgaryguy said:


> If anyone can use these and about 7-8 extra TCMT inserts that look like they fit the holders in the Calgary area they are yours for the asking.


I can use those - the left hand one will perfect in one of my small fly cutters


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## calgaryguy (Mar 24, 2022)

eotrfish said:


> I can use those - the left hand one will perfect in one of my small fly cutters


They are yours. Pm me and we'll chat


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## RobinHood (Mar 24, 2022)

CNMG/CCMG & DNMG/DCMG are a stronger insert because of their geometry compared to a TNMG/TCMG insert. I run mostly the TNMG because of the 6 usable corners. I have offshore holders but use high quality inserts in them (ISCAR mostly). Makes all the difference.

Edit: 6 usable corners using the same tool holder for the TNMGs.


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## phaxtris (Mar 24, 2022)

i like the wnmg inserts, 6 corners, with all the strength of a cnmg


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## eotrfish (Mar 24, 2022)

phaxtris said:


> oh yea i agree triangle inserts would probably not be a great shape for a boring bar, i dont think i have seen a boring bar for triangle inserts


 
This is a 1/4” dia. Boring bar which uses triangular inserts.  Works for holes .300 and up






Love it for small precision work


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