# Rose Index



## Janger (Oct 23, 2022)

I saw this Rose Index tool on a video by Tubalcain. It was invented by and is made by Timm Rosenthal.

The Rose index lets you accurately rotate a part to specific angles in the mill without a rotary table or spin indexer. The idea is simple. Attach the indexer to your part and align the edge to a machinist square. Rotate to the desired angle, and align to the square again. Tighten vise and do the next operation. Could you use it in the lathe too? hmmm.

Pretty nifty concept. He has a patent too: https://patents.google.com/patent/US10850359B2/en?q=rosenthal&inventor=timm&oq=+timm+rosenthal

Store: https://rosenthalproducts.com/collections/all
He has different sizes and a fine adjustable version.

Here is tubalcain in action: 



  advance to 7:22 to see it.


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## YYCHM (Oct 23, 2022)

project for the day
					

Here is my project for the day. It’s a small indexer for doing four sided six sided or eight sided round stock quickly on the mill. The small adapter I made to go on my bike to adapt a 27mm socket  for the rear wheel nut to the 19mm hex that the front wheel needs. I made the adapter before on...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## Janger (Oct 23, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> project for the day
> 
> 
> Here is my project for the day. It’s a small indexer for doing four sided six sided or eight sided round stock quickly on the mill. The small adapter I made to go on my bike to adapt a 27mm socket  for the rear wheel nut to the 19mm hex that the front wheel needs. I made the adapter before on...
> ...


How did I miss this?


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## Janger (Oct 23, 2022)

My version.


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## Janger (Oct 23, 2022)

Hole


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## YYCHM (Oct 23, 2022)

Janger said:


> Hole



A round hole or did you elongate it lathe dog style?


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## Janger (Oct 24, 2022)

I did elongate it but not enough. The first one still has a bit of wiggle with a 1/2" bar. The next one will have more of a V shape.


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## Degen (Oct 24, 2022)

I can see both the advantages (rapid setup) and disadvantages (accuracy and holding strength) compared to a collet type blocks that do the same only with the exact opposite in advantages and disadvantages.

IMHO it is one of the things that depending on what you have or do determines which you would prefer.


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## Janger (Oct 25, 2022)

Degen said:


> I can see both the advantages (rapid setup) and disadvantages (accuracy and holding strength) compared to a collet type blocks that do the same only with the exact opposite in advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> IMHO it is one of the things that depending on what you have or do determines which you would prefer.


I agree Degen. I have a shop made ER32 collet block but the one I made only does 90 degree rotations. I'd like one that is six sided too. I think the rose index is quick and simple to use so attractive that way.


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## Janger (Oct 30, 2022)

I finished my second rose index today with a more pronounced V shape. Here is the first test. Works pretty well. One thing is the 3/8 rod is not tight enough when gripping the material in the index. The material can loosen up too easily. How can I fix that problem?


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## YYCHM (Oct 30, 2022)

Janger said:


> One thing is the 3/8 rod is not tight enough when gripping the material in the index. The material can loosen up too easily. How can I fix that problem?



Use a Hex Head Cap Screw rather than your slotted screw.

Is your rose steel or aluminum?


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## Janger (Oct 30, 2022)

This one is aluminium. 3/8 2" long hex cap screw. I'll see what I can find. Sounds like an unusual size.


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## jcdammeyer (Oct 30, 2022)

Janger said:


> This one is aluminium. 3/8 2" long hex cap screw. I'll see what I can find. Sounds like an unusual size.


Are you sure the aluminium isn't being bent out of shape when you tighten the screw.  Perhaps make some sort of alignment mark on the screw relative to the index and see if it has turned.
If it's turned then a locking nut seems to be a good solution.   But if it hasn't turned and the material has loosened then I'd guess the aluminium is stretching.


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## Janger (Oct 30, 2022)

locking nut - that's a great idea John. I'll try that. I don't think it's stretching - there's a lot of material but I will check. I think the thread has a lot of slop as it's just ready rod cut down. I think a finer thread 3/8-NF would work better. I would need a full thread NF fastener.


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## Janger (Oct 30, 2022)

Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...


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## Susquatch (Oct 30, 2022)

Janger said:


> Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...



Gunna be hard to find so why not just make them. Most socket head cap screws are Grade 5 or 8 so a die might not work. But sharp HSS will cut it on the lathe as long as you don't take too big a bite.


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## Tecnico (Oct 30, 2022)

Janger said:


> Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...


I recently bought a box of 10, 3/8-16 x 3" for the princely sum of $1.99 from Princess Auto. Made in China with no grading marked on the heads so ya pays yer money & takes yer chances on strength.

McMaster has Grade 8 fully threaded in 3/8-16 & 3/8-24.

You might also find them called a "Tap Bolt" which is fully threaded but with no integral washer face.

D


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## Dan Dubeau (Oct 31, 2022)

Look good John.  I've wanted to make one of those for a while.  Seeing your post might kick my butt in gear to do it.  Allthread with a nut plug welded on the end makes a quick and easy full length thread bolt.  You can turn the end smooth in a lathe if you're picky


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## Janger (Nov 1, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I recently bought a box of 10, 3/8-16 x 3" for the princely sum of $1.99 from Princess Auto. Made in China with no grading marked on the heads so ya pays yer money & takes yer chances on strength.
> 
> McMaster has Grade 8 fully threaded in 3/8-16 & 3/8-24.
> 
> ...


McMaster certainly has a great selection of everything. But a 3/8-24 2.5" long bolt is $5USD. and shipping last time I ordered from them was $31CAD. So probably not ordering from them. It got here the next day and I ordered Sunday afternoon or something. They are super organized, efficient, have everything and expensive. | I went by bolt supply and they don't have any full thread bolts on hand. I could probably order a box. The also didn't have any 3/8-24 NF ready rod at that location. The sourcing hunt continues.

I decided to try making a 3/8 NF bolt out of bronze.  I 3D printed a small rose index out of polycarbonate with full infill to work on the bolt. It feels really solid and turned out nice. BUT. In usage the first time I found it was stretching when I tightened up the bolt to hold the part. I also found the bolt skated around on the part in use and I ended up with non parallel sides on my fabricated bolt head. Clearance and work holding is tricky to work out. It would be best to have a lot of extra material to grab on to. First time I used the rose index so learning learning... 

Question for the forum. What to do with the work holding bolt so it does not skate around? I think making the rose index out of metal would help. Also though the end of the work holding bolt in the commercial version is a flat brass insert on the end of the set screw. Would that skate less? Why?  I could sharpen the bolt end and have it dig in to the work. Damages the work though.


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## YYCHM (Nov 1, 2022)

Make a shoe such that the screw bears down on the stock with two points of contact.

OR

Make a set of roses with different hole sizes to better accommodate the stock to be modified.


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 1, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> View attachment 27560
> 
> Make a shoe such that ther screw bears down on the stock with two points of contact.
> 
> ...


That was going to be my suggestion too.


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## Susquatch (Nov 1, 2022)

Janger said:


> 6
> Question for the forum. What to do with the work holding bolt so it does not skate around? I think making the rose index out of metal would help. Also though the end of the work holding bolt in the commercial version is a flat brass insert on the end of the set screw. Would that skate less? Why?  I could sharpen the bolt end and have it dig in to the work. Damages the work though.



I had the same thought as @YYCHM, except mine would be an internal pin instead of a socket. I like his idea better. Guaranteed not to slip.


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## Tecnico (Nov 1, 2022)

Janger said:


> McMaster certainly has a great selection of everything. But a 3/8-24 2.5" long bolt...





Janger said:


> They are super organized, efficient, have everything and expensive. |



I hear you, expensive. 

That's kinda their thing isn't it, they have "everything" if you've just got to have it like an oddball, full thread, grade 8, fine bolt but there's a price to pay.  I've been lucky to hitch a ride so to speak when the office was ordering something.  They must have spent a fortune on McMaster shipping.

You're probably going about it right to make your bolt unless the coarse thread bolts from Princess would do.  I like the suggestions about  a saddle fitting like you see on vee block sets.

BTW,  that's an interesting fixture you're working on there.

D


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## Dan Dubeau (Nov 2, 2022)

Here's my quick and dirty morning break project.
4, 5, 6 sided index.  Will hold from 3/8" up to 1.25".  I drew it up quick last night, and had planned on making 2 (one for work, one for home) but while cutting it, thought of a few improvements so I only made 1 for now, and will make some changes to the next ones.  It's 2"sqx0.75" thick, with a 1/4"-20 screw.  Each step is 0.25".  Shown with a 5/8" pin.











 I'll throw it in the tumbler tonight, and send it out for anodizing in our next batch of stuff for work.  

Sorry for piling on your thread Janger, but thanks for kicking my butt in gear.  Might not see a lot of use, as I use my er32 collet blocks a lot for small stuff, but ya never know.  Could come in handy some day. 

I'm also attempting to take better picture of my stuff, but the lighting sucks in my office.  Instead of just pushing the junk away on my desk and snapping a photo like I normally do, I...well....





baby steps.


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## DPittman (Nov 2, 2022)

Nice work fellas, I was thinking I should try making one of those a while back but then these came up and for the price (when  they are on sale)  and figured it was too easy not to try them. 








						Indexing Plates The complete Kit
					

Hey Guys  Exciting times in my shop. I now have available a complete kit for the Indexing plates. This is a a complete four piece kit . You get  four cnc laser cut indexing plates 3/8" thick set screws printed build notes and typical examples of use. The plates are provided as they come off the...



					d-gray-drafting-and-design.myshopify.com


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 2, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> Here's my quick and dirty morning break project.
> 4, 5, 6 sided index.  Will hold from 3/8" up to 1.25".  I drew it up quick last night, and had planned on making 2 (one for work, one for home) but while cutting it, thought of a few improvements so I only made 1 for now, and will make some changes to the next ones.  It's 2"sqx0.75" thick, with a 1/4"-20 screw.  Each step is 0.25".  Shown with a 5/8" pin.


Looking forward to the improvements. 
Amazing how our eyes deceive us too. I'd swear from the photos that the sides on the hex part are not the same length.


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## Dan Dubeau (Nov 2, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Looking forward to the improvements.
> Amazing how our eyes deceive us too. I'd swear from the photos that the sides on the hex part are not the same length.


Good eye, they are not equal (it IS symmetrical from side to side though).  Same with the Pentagon.  They are simply run out to join and blend into the outside flat sides.  They don't need to be equal due to the way the tool is used, it really doesn't matter, only the angles do.  It would also just create a bunch of unnecessary extra work to deburr .  Plus I wanted one shared flat surface where the screw came through, and to make all shapes concentric with the center they wouldn't nest together in a nice aesthetically pleasing (to me anyway) homogenized and compact product like that.






Had to get my hightech backdrop out again for that one .







Looking at it again now, I could push the penta sides around a bit to further achieve that goal, and make the indexing flats a bit larger. I'll do it on the next ones. I seriously doubt I'll ever even use the penta side though, but it was kind of an afterthought, when I thought I could fit another set of angles in there.  How many times would you need to rough index by 5?  Maybe some top secret work for the US gooberment?

It makes for a better sounding name though.  Like the 123 block, and the 345 triangle, this is the 456 index block. .

Some improvements would be the center hole angled faces being 60* (they're currently 77.57*).  I simply just joined the 2 circles tangentially and didn't pay any mind to the actual angle because I hadn't concieved of holding hex stock with it, and it didn't really matter.  Not that I probably ever would, but why exclude it?  Would be fun to drill 5 indexed holes radially around hex stock.  Might break the universe or something .

Fun morning project though.  I need to make a point to do these more.


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 2, 2022)

To be truthful I really can't get my head around how the hex sides which aren't at 60 degrees can then be used to mill a hex head on the end of a shaft.  Especially since a larger diameter part moves it's centerline away from the anchor screw.

Maybe I'm not understanding how it's used in the mill.  Those photos had so much other stuff in the way that it wasn't clear.  To me anyway.

Maybe post an STL file and I'll 3D print a sample to get that hands on feeling.


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## YYCHM (Nov 2, 2022)

I had wondered if everything needed to be symmetrical with all the sides the same length.  So only the angles matter eh?


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## Dan Dubeau (Nov 2, 2022)

Sorry for the cluttered photos, I'll do better.

The part/shaft is held in the vise.  Centerline/setup is taken from that.  The index ring is simply used to index it's rotation by using a square against the machine table.  It's concentricity to the shaft does not matter, just the relative angles.  Hopefully these picture help show that a bit better.  The ring isn't used to HOLD a part like a collet block.  A vise is provides the holding power, this just simply indexes.  I also wouldn't trust it for high accuracy, but I can see how this would be handy, quick and easy for a lot of things that have looser tolerance requirements.

















As you can see, the shafts location never changes in relation to the machine setup, ONLY it's axial rotation in relation to itself.  

A bigger one for pipe/fab work for notching etc would be absolutely awesome.


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## Dan Dubeau (Nov 2, 2022)

Another benefit is the ability to take it off to do the machining, put it back on and square it up to the table before removing the part, then re-indexing the part and removing it to machine another feature.  On some parts there really isn't a good way to hold them in traditional indexing fixtures.

I remember when I first saw it pop up in another youtube video a while back, and thought it was just another gimmick bettermoustrap product, but then I had a lightbulb moment of where and how it would actually shine and be useful to me.  I just never got around to making one, nor getting off my wallet to buy one.  It's not the end all be all, but sticking another arrow in the quiver never hurts sometimes. 

I actually machine indexing features into waste stock sometimes, like on this big uhmw block from last week.  I had no other good way to hold this to put in the 12 mounting holes I needed to radially.


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## Janger (Nov 3, 2022)

While I was making the rose index I needed to have a rose index to make the rose index so that got me thinking  if you followed that… 

I realized for making square ends on a rod you just need a L square to advance a flat to 90 degrees. No rose index required. From there I reasoned  if I had a 60 degree square then I could do hex. That got me looking for a commercial 60 degree square and they do exist on Ali express. I’m reinventing the wheel here… Okay a month and $30 for delivery. What can I do now? My combination set is too big for this set up so I designed and 3D printed a plastic one but at 150 degrees for convenience to clear the vise hold down bolts. It actually worked out well and I made a better bolt head than my first go at it. 

Lastly I learned from other peoples posts on that other hobby forum that with a small parallel and a digital protractor you can remove the part from work holding and put it back reliably and get it level. Learning learning… 

If people would like me to post the model or .stl file for the 150 degree square I could put it up on printables.com


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## Dan Dubeau (Nov 3, 2022)

Nice problem solving John.  You could also epoxy a nut on the end of your stock to index the 6 sides with a normal 90* square like the rose index, then remove it after. 

This is the one thing I love the most about the machining trade is the problem solving of how do do something with the available tools you have.  I have way more fancy tools at work to do stuff than I do at home, so sometimes things are a bit of a headscratcher in my home shop.  Other times they come to work with me, and sit on my desk for months until I get some time to get around to them lol.


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## Susquatch (Nov 3, 2022)

Janger said:


> While I was making the rose index I needed to have a rose index to make the rose index so that got me thinking if you followed that…



There is that darn chicken and egg again!


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## Janger (Nov 4, 2022)

Over the last few days I made a bunch more progress with my project. I printed new angle brackets or squares at 45 and 60°. And I also finished my brass bolt with 3/8 - 24 fine thread. The bolt took me 3 attempts before I could get the hex sides parallel. Now it’s kinda a 15mm. I think I have a working rose index now.


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## DPittman (Nov 4, 2022)

Janger said:


> Over the last few days I made a bunch more progress with my project. I printed new angle brackets or squares at 45 and 60°. And I also finished my brass bolt with 3/8 - 24 fine thread. The bolt took me 3 attempts before I could get the hex sides parallel. Now it’s kinda a 15mm. I think I have a working rose index now.


Hey that looks really good!  I like the angled "squares".


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## combustable herbage (Nov 8, 2022)

Janger said:


> Over the last few days I made a bunch more progress with my project. I printed new angle brackets or squares at 45 and 60°. And I also finished my brass bolt with 3/8 - 24 fine thread. The bolt took me 3 attempts before I could get the hex sides parallel. Now it’s kinda a 15mm. I think I have a working rose index now.


John that turned out nice and an interesting project, you'll be able to use the index to make the next bolt.  If you wouldn't mind posting the angle bracket or squares file I would appreciate it I am back into some 3d printing after a summer break and think some of these would be handy in different applications and thanks for posting the er32 holders I am gonna try some out and see if they are for me.


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## Janger (Nov 8, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> John that turned out nice and an interesting project, you'll be able to use the index to make the next bolt.  If you wouldn't mind posting the angle bracket or squares file I would appreciate it I am back into some 3d printing after a summer break and think some of these would be handy in different applications and thanks for posting the er32 holders I am gonna try some out and see if they are for me.


Done. Have a look for them here: https://www.printables.com/model/313484-45-and-60-degree-fixed-angles-for-aligning-stock-w
Glad you like them !


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 8, 2022)

Janger said:


> Done. Have a look for them here: https://www.printables.com/model/313484-45-and-60-degree-fixed-angles-for-aligning-stock-w
> Glad you like them !


The link is incomplete.


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## Janger (Nov 8, 2022)

Oh you're right. Ok fixed it now I think.


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## YYCHM (Nov 8, 2022)




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## jcdammeyer (Nov 8, 2022)

Janger said:


> Oh you're right. Ok fixed it now I think.


Yes. Works for me now too.


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 8, 2022)

Boy that threw me for a loop for a moment.  My STL files are generally imported in millimeters.  I guess these are in inches.  Otherwise they are very very very tiny.  I switch the import setting and now they seem more like they should.

Out of curiosity, what is the length of the base of the 45 degree one?


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## Janger (Nov 8, 2022)

yah Fusion exports in inches if I model in inches which confuses the slicers. 

that edge is apparently exactly 2.427" exactly.  why I'm not sure. 2.5" seems more sensible.


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## jcdammeyer (Nov 8, 2022)

Well let's see what it turns out like.


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## Janger (Nov 8, 2022)

Ok Forum - I've just had a nice conversation with Timm Rosenthal the inventor and maker of the Rose Index. I explained the challenges of shipping by UPS (or whomever) to Canada and all the darn fees they charge. He was surprised to learn of this practice by the shippers.

His site: https://rosenthalproducts.com/

He does make a smaller rose index out of aluminium with a reasonable price. $45USD.


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## YotaBota (Nov 9, 2022)

Janger said:


> He was surprised to learn of this practice by the shippers.


Did Timm offer any other shipping methods? USPS? I'm looking at one of these vice the block collet holders.


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## Six O Two (Nov 9, 2022)

Janger said:


> Ok Forum - I've just had a nice conversation with Timm Rosenthal the inventor and maker of the Rose Index.



And here I was, wondering how the Rose index got its name. Now I know!


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## Janger (Nov 21, 2022)

Hi forum.
I’m putting together a combined order for rose indexes and Timm will ship it USPS. I’m ordering a small steel one  and I think another member is too. If you want one please PM me to confirm your order. We will split the shipping evenly. I hope it will be way less but let’s see what Canada post does when it arrives. I’ll ask you to pay me in advance for the index (interac or PayPal or cash) and then I will bill actual shipping once they arrive.









						Products
					

Welcome to Rosenthal Products. Home of the Rose-Index.




					rosenthalproducts.com
				





John


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> Hi forum.
> I’m putting together a combined order for rose indexes and Timm will ship it USPS. I’m ordering a small steel one  and I think another member is too. If you want one please PM me to confirm your order. We will split the shipping evenly. I hope it will be way less but let’s see what Canada post does when it arrives. I’ll ask you to pay me in advance for the index (interac or PayPal or cash) and then I will bill actual shipping once they arrive.
> 
> 
> ...


So to be clear, if I want one I split the over-all shipping cost evenly on a non-prorated basis, regardless of whether people order numerous rose indexers, or only the small aluminum one? Then people would have to pay to have it shipped from central Canadian distribution point (Calgary?) to their final destination? 

How will you handle sales tax? Do you know if these are exempt from duties under our new trade agreement?


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 21, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> So to be clear, if I want one I split the over-all shipping cost evenly on a non-prorated basis, regardless of whether people order numerous rose indexers, or only the small aluminum one? Then people would have to pay to have it shipped from central Canadian distribution point (Calgary?) to their final destination?
> 
> How will you handle sales tax? Do you know if these are exempt from duties under our new trade agreement?



IIRC GST in AB is 5%, so if this is imported into AB is the GST only charged upon import, or is there a provincial sales tax too?


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## Janger (Nov 21, 2022)

Hi - yah when I said evenly split the shipping I should clarify. I kind of assumed people would just want one and probably the small one. I guess there are different sizes and quantities possible. I'd like to keep it simple. In fairness I will prorate the shipping by the weight of what you order - order one small aluminium one and it would be less than several big steel ones. I'll then tack on what it costs to ship your items to your place in Canada by lowest available canada post rates + the envelope. Or if you're around here (Calgary) you can pick it up from me direct. GST in AB is 5% - I wouldn't expect anything else but if there are surprise duties, handling etc. I would ask you to bear with me and pay your share. Of course this is just me organizing a group buy - I'm not going into the distribution business.


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## YotaBota (Nov 21, 2022)

I'm also looking at the small steel unit. Is there anyone else in my area, Vancouver Island, interested? I can be the distribution point, John sends them to me and I'll get them out to those who have ordered them. Should save us all on shipping.

Also, unless John has a special credit card there will be the 2.5% (ish) money conversion fee that needs to be factored in, can't expect John to pay all of that.

John - by interact do you mean e-transfer?
         - is using USPS more or less an experiment for Timm? I ask because if there is enough interest here we could do our own order and save the double shipping.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> Hi - yah when I said evenly split the shipping I should clarify. I kind of assumed people would just want one and probably the small one. I guess there are different sizes and quantities possible. I'd like to keep it simple. In fairness I will prorate the shipping by the weight of what you order - order one small aluminium one and it would be less than several big steel ones. I'll then tack on what it costs to ship your items to your place in Canada by lowest available canada post rates + the envelope. Or if you're around here (Calgary) you can pick it up from me direct. GST in AB is 5% - I wouldn't expect anything else but if there are surprise duties, handling etc. I would ask you to bear with me and pay your share. Of course this is just me organizing a group buy - I'm not going into the distribution business.


that all sounds good. I will place an order with you just for the small aluminum rose index to make it easy. I'll send a PM. This will save me on shipping


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## Janger (Nov 21, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> I'm also looking at the small steel unit. Is there anyone else in my area, Vancouver Island, interested? I can be the distribution point, John sends them to me and I'll get them out to those who have ordered them. Should save us all on shipping.
> 
> Also, unless John has a special credit card there will be the 2.5% (ish) money conversion fee that needs to be factored in, can't expect John to pay all of that.
> 
> ...


yah I think USPS is an experiment for him. If there are multiple orders on the island then yes Mike I think a separate order from Timm might make sense. Right now it's just you. Right now we've BC, AB, SK, and ON and of course one order from each province.


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## Janger (Nov 21, 2022)

Forum... going ... going... PM me if you want in.


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## YotaBota (Nov 21, 2022)

I was expecting a better response for this tool. When you look at buying hex and square collet blocks decent cheap ones are running for $100 a set, they are bulky and you need a collet the right size to use them.


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## YYCHM (Nov 21, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> I was expecting a better response for this tool. When you look at buying hex and square collet blocks decent cheap ones are running for $100 a set, they are bulky and you need a collet the right size to use them.



Make one.  It's not terribly hard to do on a RT.  I'm surprised John is ordering one when he has a CNC mill.


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## YotaBota (Nov 21, 2022)

I don't think it's a copyright infringement to make one for yourself but it is a copyright item. The man spent time and money developing the unit, they're finished well and being done cnc they should be perfect. 
Besides, Christmas is coming! lol


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 21, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> I don't think it's a copyright infringement to make one for yourself but it is a copyright item. The man spent time and money developing the unit, they're finished well and being done cnc they should be perfect.
> Besides, Christmas is coming! lol


exactly.

and while I could knock one off, and even take the design to a local fellow with a cnc mill I'd rather reward the company that designed the tool and it is cheap enough to buy anyway


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## Timm Rosenthal (Nov 22, 2022)

Hello All,
I am Timm Rosenthal, and very new to this site. I doubt I'll really have time to join in on typical conversations due to my daily activities. I really don't mean to be giving a sales pitch here, and please know that this is a very condensed version of the story. I have owned and operated my machineshop for over 17 years. Previous to my shop I was employed for 10 years at a local machineshop that specialized in mainly aircraft components. Technically I am a jobshop, and over the years there isn't much I haven't worked on.

I came up with the Rose-Index idea around a decade ago, however I didn't realize it for quite some time. Over a few years I made a few versions for various sized round parts until I was tired of making individual sizes. (I'm trying to work up the "Rose-Index Story" for a trade magazine) I do have a YouTube channel "Rosenthal Products" where I show real world uses of my gadget. I am trying to get after making more videos however I am very busy with kids, business, and being a single head of household.

The Rose-Index at it's simplest concept is "A reference" for round parts. How your creativity goes from there is where this tool really shines. I came up with the idea because I needed something simple and quick to index parts that I was machining. I do not keep an indexer on my table, and it was always an inconvenience for me to make room on my machines for one or two parts. Over the years I purchased just about any form of indexing they make so that I could hope to have the quickest way to index/hole round work to make my shop quicker and more efficient, however I still disliked round parts requiring index operations coming in the shop. (I do have a video showing all my indexers). I generally have vises on my machines in some sort of array. I firmly believe that a vise is one of the most rigid and flexible work holding devises that you can have, and most of us have them. If you have a vise you can typically turn it into a indexer in seconds and generally not need to adjust anything on your set ups. You can take a Rose-Index out of your tool box ...... put it on your work piece ....... Index ...... and put back in your tool box within seconds. In my daily activities this is huge and can really pay for itself in one use simply in time savings alone. Because it is not your work holding device it is removable. This aids in clearance issues. I could go on and on about this, however I'll wait to see if members of this site want to hear more.


I have come up with many scenarios where 1 rose index makes your life much easier. If you're open to having 2 of the same size there are few more actions that will become easier also. The concept I really like with the Rose-Index is that you can increase your machines work envelope quite easily. Simply shifting over a bit, or flipping your work end for end is very quick and easy......but if you have 2 you can really increase your work envelope. My biggest machine has 44 inches of X-axis travel (sorry about inches, however that's the way I work). With that 44" machine I was able to key a 14' 7" long shaft on both ends in time. I did this very accurately and I hope to get the video put together in the next month or so to show how I did it.


I have sold quite a few of these and I have had a lot of really nice feed back. One of the latest forms of praise without words was that I noticed the same name in a week as a customer. I looked at the delivery date and time of the first sale they purchased and under 2 hours after their first delivery they purchased the other size. I am confident if you give my index a try you will be happy you took the chance.


John reached out to me with the shipping problems and expense of parts crossing the boarder. I did not realize there were additional charges after I ship to Canada. In all honesty that aggravates me. I have shipped a couple times to Canada this year and I didn't realize that UPS/FedEx were adding additional charges. I want clarity on pricing for my customers. I would like to help out with an initial batch or two to Canada and learn better how it works, and to see what I can do to assist.

Please know that I'm not a big industry giant with loads of employees and a big check book. I'm simply an owner/operator of a small shop just trying to do my thing. I had an opportunity to leave my mark on machining world and I'm giving it a respectable try. The Rose-Index is hopefully a story and tool that will be useful long live after me in shops all over.

I truly am a very busy person, however this is my gadget and I take pride in it.....so please feel free to reach out and ask questions.

The original is my 2" steel version. I did not spare on material or time, and as a result it is extremely rigid and is something you won't regret purchasing. The 1" steel came next do to recommendations from my friends at LakeShore Carbide in New York. This is quite small actually in comparison to the 2" model. The size does actually make it very convenient for small parts and lots of clearance. I came out with the aluminum version for the hobby people that were concerned with pricing on Mr. Pete's square hole video. The aluminum versions do stretch a bit with increased screw pressures. You do not need much pressure on the screw, because the design really locks in well with the part. The aluminum and steel versions are the same size, and do work well together if you choose to save on a set of these.

I do the laser engraving in house. The "Degree Wheel" on my 2" Rose-Index is a simple way that I added the opportunity for 1 degree increment changes. The accuracy aspect is kind of a short story so for now please trust that these are extremely accurate. I plan to try making 5 degree increments on the 1" model, however it is a ways off and I don't know how useful it will really be.

I will leave it at this for now. Please feel free to reach out.

Thank you and best regards,
Timm Rosenthal


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## Janger (Nov 22, 2022)

Welcome @Timm Rosenthal to the forum. I think there are a number of members who would like to make the jump from hobby to small manufacturer / job shop like you have. Well done. If you find some time some pictures and description of how you do your black oxide finishing and laser engraving would be well received.

Forum members - we just need one more group order of a rose index to make 5 and then the shipping cost will be reduced. PM me if interested.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 22, 2022)

Timm Rosenthal said:


> Hello All,
> I am Timm Rosenthal, and very new to this site. I doubt I'll really have time to join in on typical conversations due to my daily activities. I really don't mean to be giving a sales pitch here, and please know that this is a very condensed version of the story. I have owned and operated my machineshop for over 17 years. Previous to my shop I was employed for 10 years at a local machineshop that specialized in mainly aircraft components. Technically I am a jobshop, and over the years there isn't much I haven't worked on.
> 
> I came up with the Rose-Index idea around a decade ago, however I didn't realize it for quite some time. Over a few years I made a few versions for various sized round parts until I was tired of making individual sizes. (I'm trying to work up the "Rose-Index Story" for a trade magazine) I do have a YouTube channel "Rosenthal Products" where I show real world uses of my gadget. I am trying to get after making more videos however I am very busy with kids, business, and being a single head of household.
> ...


Dude you had me at hello 

Welcome

Just like your right to income from your intellectual property Governments are entitled to their taxes. The evil lies in "inflated" brokerage fees charged by couriers who are already paid to ship a product. I don't quibble about a fair fee... just inflated ones.

The best way to deliver the fair affordable shipping to Canada is to use a shipping method that charges a fair a brokerage fee, unlike most couriers. 

Canada Post is the only entity that has reasonable fees for customs brokerage services. But wait, how do you use Canada Post when you're not in Canada? You use your national postal service that has agreements with Canada Post, so in the USA that means the good ole US postal service. They're my preferred carrier of goods from the USA. 

Sadly, while most companies in the USA will ship USPS domestically they wont Internationally. I wont buy from such companies, or I end up using a transshipment company a few times a year for when I save up and have a ton of items sent to myself via Buffalo.


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## YotaBota (Nov 22, 2022)

Welcome Timm, I've been eyeballing the index for a while but can't get past the brokerage crap.

It's not just cross border where the shipping is stupid, I just got charged $38 shipping (Purolator) for one $36 collet that traveled from Vancouver to Victoria. The only reason I did it was to use up a credit I had with the company, otherwise I'd have gone else where.


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## curmudgeon (Nov 22, 2022)

Timm Rosenthal said:


> John reached out to me with the shipping problems and expense of parts crossing the boarder. I did not realize there were additional charges after I ship to Canada. In all honesty that aggravates me. I have shipped a couple times to Canada this year and I didn't realize that UPS/FedEx were adding additional charges. I want clarity on pricing for my customers. I would like to help out with an initial batch or two to Canada and learn better how it works, and to see what I can do to assist.



Welcome and thanks for the great intro.  

Like @TorontoBuilder said, the kindest thing you can do for your northern customers is to offer USPS international shipping.  Canada Post does not add unfair charges to collect the required Canadian and Provincial sales taxes.  I avoid ordering from US suppliers that do not offer USPS shipping.  

If I must...  I'll usually have them ship to Blaine, WA where a freight forwarder trucks the package to YYJ International Airport and holds it in their bonded warehouse until I clear customs (pay taxes and potentially duty).  I have to figure in the extra (but reasonable) cost of the freight forwarder, plus the time to get out to the airport.  I've been pretty lucky with the customs agents often not bothering to collect the taxes.


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## Dabbler (Nov 22, 2022)

Welcome Timm!

Thanks for your care about unfair brokerage fees from US carriers that ship to Canada.  The only 2 carriers that result in consistent and appropriate fees are  USPS via Canada Post and Yellow Freight (for class 5 and larger shipments).

I hope the best of success to your shop and product.


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## Timm Rosenthal (Nov 22, 2022)

I'm taking a late lunch and I don't have much time. I'll check back later.


Janger- I do have a professional plating service do the Zinc plating on the Steel, and the Aluminum are Hard Anodized thru another professional business I work with.
     I'm open to try to give advise and information that I learned going into business.....But Please have some questions listed out. I've had many trials and tribulations across 17 years and that would be a very long story to put out. Simply put you have to be "All In" I risked just about everything with my future due to starting from scratch and trying to be a full machineshop right away. I leveraged what I had, and I had years of preparation before I made the leap.

TorontoBuilder-I'm glad that John reached out. I was completely unaware and caught off guard. I plan to figure out what the best I can do for the end user. As for now I'm glad I had you at hello.

YotaBota-I've done other people's machining for quite some time. They or I typically deliver the parts. Over the years my customer basis has spread out to other locations where I use their shipping accounts and haven't had to worry about shipping and how it works. If you and your peers are willing to work with me and figure this out I would appreciate it.

Curmudgeon-Technically we live on the same ground without any air/sea shipping necissary. Unfortunately we are "Different Countries". I have shipped to UK, Malta, Australia, and a few other countries. My local shipper gave me advice of using a UPS/FedEx because: When the shipment leaves the United States the USPS is no longer responsible. He mentioned that with a world wide shipper such as UPS and FedEx that the package is with an employee typically until it is delivered. My thinking of them being responsible from my door to the customer's door made the most sense, and had some insurance that responsibility would be easier to prove if there was something lost or damaged. With this seeming to work so far I just decided to not change what I thought was working. My son typically takes care of the Website and shipping aspects inside the website also. We are trying to see what we can do to offer up USPS shipping to Canada and try to deter other countries for not using the USPS until I have more knowledge of how it works and have some successful transitions.

Dabbler-Thanks for your input.

All of you- Thank you for the warm welcome. I sincerely appreciate it.

I am off to work,
Timm


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## YotaBota (Nov 23, 2022)

Timm - although we all appreciate a deal packaging and shipping takes time and time is money so please don't under cut yourself. 

Big business doesn't blink at shipping costs since most times it can be a business expense and a write-off which doesn't work well for us hobby/single purchase guys.

I thought there'd be a better response from the group but it is what it is. By the time the small steel index is in my hand it be $120ish cdn so it is looks like a lot for a small piece of steel but this will work well for me as I don't have collet blocks.


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## Timm Rosenthal (Nov 25, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Timm - although we all appreciate a deal packaging and shipping takes time and time is money so please don't under cut yourself.
> 
> Big business doesn't blink at shipping costs since most times it can be a business expense and a write-off which doesn't work well for us hobby/single purchase guys.
> 
> I thought there'd be a better response from the group but it is what it is. By the time the small steel index is in my hand it be $120ish cdn so it is looks like a lot for a small piece of steel but this will work well for me as I don't have collet blocks.


Mike,
I don't want to undercut myself, however consider me helping you some is an advertising expense.

-The Rose-Index is something that is really a great tool. After you use it a few times and really start to get creative with it you'll wish you had it years ago.
-There is also the fact that I don't want to be a sales man. I dislike sales people because typically they brag and over sell a product ..... then the product falls short of your expectations. I would rather undersell my abilities and over perform. I sincerely do my best to be humble.....yet that typically doesn't help sales.
-Then there is also the reality that I have no history with you and your peers.

With these things being said you're willing to take the chance and I'm pretty confident after you use yours a couple times you'll be willing to give feedback. Your feedback means much more than mine to the world and your peers. My hope is that you'll look at the quality, feel, and ease of use and take time to tell others after you get a feel for it.

Here is a link to my original video that shows the basics of use. This was filmed very early on. In time I realized that it works better if the vee is pointed towards you....and you push the machinist square into the Rose-Index when you tighten up the setscrew....this way really helps to center things up very well and there really isn't any movement when tightening up the screw.






Be well....and thank you for your concern.
Timm Rosenthal


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## YotaBota (Nov 25, 2022)

With that attitude you wouldn't make it thru the first day as a car salesman, and please take that as a compliment. 

There are a couple of small jobs on the list so I will definitely let you know how it goes.
Take care and stay safe.
Mike


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 25, 2022)

Timm Rosenthal said:


> Mike,
> I don't want to undercut myself, however consider me helping you some is an advertising expense.
> 
> -The Rose-Index is something that is really a great tool. After you use it a few times and really start to get creative with it you'll wish you had it years ago.
> ...


I look forward to using mine very very soon to cut the square heads on a bunch of these:


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## Timm Rosenthal (Dec 7, 2022)

I think you should see Indexes in the next day. I shipped out another Canadian order the same day that I shipped these out. The tracking information on the other order shows it was delivered today.


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## Janger (Dec 7, 2022)

In the mail today! Timm I have to say these are beautifully made. Do you send them out for blackening - what process or chemical is this? Then it’s back to your shop for engraving?

The hobby is hard to tell from the steel version. Other than weight and the label they are identical.
Pictures
I’d call that a success. I’ll try to get them in the mail tomorrow going back to ON, BC, and SK.


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## YotaBota (Dec 7, 2022)

It's Christmas time,,,, don't forget the gift wrapping. LOL


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## DPittman (Dec 7, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> It's Christmas time,,,, don't forget the gift wrapping. LOL


Oh it's okay, I don't mind if you don't wrap it.


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## Janger (Dec 9, 2022)

Parts arrived Wednesday as discussed and I got them in the mail last night. After discussion with the canada post staffer I removed a layer of bubble wrap and made the envelope thinner. She would then send it as letter mail. So $22 for a envelope as a package and down to $2 as a letter. Has to fit through this slot in a plastic panel then it can go as letter mail. I then added registered/insurance for each at about $10. So re-mailing was $12.  On the way boys.


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## Tom O (Dec 9, 2022)

Unreal!


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## Timm Rosenthal (Dec 9, 2022)

Janger said:


> In the mail today! Timm I have to say these are beautifully made. Do you send them out for blackening - what process or chemical is this? Then it’s back to your shop for engraving?
> 
> The hobby is hard to tell from the steel version. Other than weight and the label they are identical.
> Pictures
> I’d call that a success. I’ll try to get them in the mail tomorrow going back to ON, BC, and SK.


John,
Thank you for the kind words. While I am definitely biased.....if I knew how well they worked and how many ways they can be used.....I'd buy them in a heartbeat if someone else came up with the concept. In it's most basic sense it is a quick/convinient way to gain a reference on round material. If people are intereseted in me rambling I can try to explain in words many of the uses. I need to video tape the deomonstration I did at IMTS this last September and put it on my YouTube Channel as a basic overview.

The steel version are zinc plated, and the aluminum are hard anodized by vendors I work with. The first batch were machine engraved and I wiped some gray paint in them to make the lettering stand out. That was a painfully long process. I decided to invest in a laser marker.  Laser marking allowed me to speed up the marking process and make the markings appear much more professional.

Thanks again and I really look forward to seeing them in use and hearing your thoughts.
Timm


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## Janger (Dec 10, 2022)

@Timm Rosenthal  Laser marker? Wow. Pictures and manufacturer if you get a minute? The lettering is first rate.


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## Janger (Dec 10, 2022)

First project today ! Second Lathe chuck key for the four jaw. A simple square end but also a 45 degree feature (cross drill) for the handle. Rose index was handy.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

Janger said:


> First project today ! Second Lathe chuck key for the four jaw. A simple square end but also a 45 degree feature (cross drill) for the handle. Rose index was handy.


I can't wait to get mine... 

I can try to make a slightly larger key to fit one of the cams on my chipmaster spindle that someone bashed up trying to free a stuck cam that was or still is preventing the chuck removal.


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## PeterT (Dec 10, 2022)

I've got ta similar project on my drawing board. But I'm considering making a hex on the end so I can use a socket ratchet wrench. I still have a tommy bar cross hole just because, but personally I don't care for them as much.


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## Timm Rosenthal (Dec 10, 2022)

Janger said:


> @Timm Rosenthal  Laser marker? Wow. Pictures and manufacturer if you get a minute? The lettering is first rate.


Beamer Laser





						Beamer Laser Marking Systems, Fiber Laser Marking Machines
					

Beamer Laser Marking Systems delivers American-made quality in a full range of fiber laser marking machines, providing an industry-leader 100,000+ working-hour lifespan.




					www.beamerlasermarking.com
				





I have an older B-Series. Mine doesn't have the "Z-axis" that the new ones do.





						B-Series | Beamer Laser Systems
					






					www.beamerlasermarking.com
				




Beamer is a bit spendy, however I really think the support and help is worth it.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

Timm Rosenthal said:


> Beamer Laser
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That fiber laser can be used to reveal multi-colour markings, very cool. I wanted to try something like that for the new plaques for my lathe.  You have a very cool tool there tim









						Crazy Experiment Time - selective multicolour anodizing
					

Okay, I want to try something very far out, selective anodizing a rating plates and gear selection tables and the like.  I have access to anodizing company via a business that regularly has parts anodized. I was thinking that I can get the parts anodized and take delivery of them within hours of...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Timm Rosenthal (Dec 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That fiber laser can be used to reveal multi-colour markings, very cool. I wanted to try something like that for the new plaques for my lathe.  You have a very cool tool there tim
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The laser could be a complete business all on it's own. I bought a used one because I couldn't justify the cost of a new one. After having it for a while I wish I would have had one years ago. I'm very busy and have too many irons in the fire already.....so it typically sits in the corner. I'm very glad I have it thou.....I just wish I had more time to play with it.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

I keep forgetting that with the new grinding fixtures I recently bought I have another way to easily and quickly put flats on bar stock... albeit not as quickly as a mill can.

So I'll just skim pass all my milled flats to give them a smooth finish on a set up like Adam has here:


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## YotaBota (Dec 19, 2022)

It Works! The trick is to use the same pattern each time. My first try wasn't bad but I was never going to find a wrench to fit a seven sided head LOL. I was laughing hard enough that I had to sit down for a minute.
Here is a shot of try number two using just the six side and not the six&eight sides at the same time, much better.





Thanks Timm, this is going to work out very well.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 19, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> It Works! The trick is to use the same pattern each time. My first try wasn't bad but I was never going to find a wrench to fit a seven sided head LOL. I was laughing hard enough that I had to sit down for a minute.
> Here is a shot of try number two using just the six side and not the six&eight sides at the same time, much better.
> View attachment 29072
> 
> Thanks Timm, this is going to work out very well.


nice


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## Timm Rosenthal (Dec 20, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> It Works! The trick is to use the same pattern each time. My first try wasn't bad but I was never going to find a wrench to fit a seven sided head LOL. I was laughing hard enough that I had to sit down for a minute.
> Here is a shot of try number two using just the six side and not the six&eight sides at the same time, much better.
> View attachment 29072
> 
> Thanks Timm, this is going to work out very well.


YotaBota,
It sounds as if you like your Index. Please continue to show little tid bits as you use it.....and if you don't mind taking the time please give me your feedback on your opinion of it also. I try pretty hard to make sure that I produce a quality tool. It is very important to me .... that the person taking a chance on by spending their money on it are happy with their purchase and that it truly is a useful tool for them.

I hope some of the other people that purchased these will also chime in. These are growing in popularity as people see the usefulness and convinience. Many people that purchase these get both sizes at the same time, however I do have a handful of people that seem to have purchased on to see what they're like and then purchase the other size later. Whether you are a hobbyist or a proffesional ... I sincerely feel that this is a tool that should be in every machinist's tool box.

Thank you,
Timm


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## YotaBota (Dec 22, 2022)

@Timm Rosenthal - so far I do like it and have it hanging on the wall beside the mill. If any of the locals want to see and/or try it give me a shout. 
I think the only improvement that would make it better, for me personally, would be if it was made from 2" stock vice the 1.5". I'm not old old, but as I get closer to old old I find smaller items are getting tougher to hang onto. And yes I can hear all the snickers from here about "smaller items". lol
All the best for the holidays and the new year.
Mike


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 22, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> @Timm Rosenthal - so far I do like it and have it hanging on the wall beside the mill. If any of the locals want to see and/or try it give me a shout.
> I think the only improvement that would make it better, for me personally, would be if it was made from 2" stock vice the 1.5". I'm not old old, but as I get closer to old old I find smaller items are getting tougher to hang onto. And yes I can hear all the snickers from here about "smaller items". lol
> All the best for the holidays and the new year.
> Mike


I wouldn't mind trying it although to be truthful any hex heads I've made have been with the 5C collet spin indexer.  At the moment I can't think of anything I'm making that needs a hex head.


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## YotaBota (Dec 22, 2022)

@jcdammeyer - We'll have to get together after the holidays.


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## Susquatch (Dec 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I wouldn't mind trying it although to be truthful any hex heads I've made have been with the 5C collet spin indexer. At the moment I can't think of anything I'm making that needs a hex head.



I am the same. I just finished putting a hex head onto some fuel injector caps for my tractor. No way a rose index would have handled that. The caps are only a half inch long and are barely held by a collet in my spin Indexer. 

Might do a writeup on them for others with a similar problem.


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## DPittman (Dec 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I am the same. I just finished putting a hex head onto some fuel injector caps for my tractor. No way a rose index would have handled that. The caps are only a half inch long and are barely held by a collet in my spin Indexer.
> 
> Might do a writeup on them for others with a similar problem.


I'd like to see a couple of pics and description !


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 22, 2022)

When I made a pair of custom bolts for the mill I first cut the hex heads.






Then I turned in down the lathe for the metric threads.  This was needed after I broke a tap in the original bolt.


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## Susquatch (Friday at 8:14 PM)

DPittman said:


> I'd like to see a couple of pics and description !



Since the forum was down, I took some time to modify another injector.

Here is the original and my modified cap to take a 1/2" socket. The cap screws onto the top of the injector return line manifold.








The dealer uses a special pliers. I couldn't get that to work well at all. My hands are simply too big. I ended up using vise grips.  You can see the marks on the cap. Yuk.

Basically, I clamped my spin indexer in my vise, then set my quill height using a half inch rod and 1thou paper, then dropped the quill 3 thou (1 for the paper and two so the nut will fit into a socket), then put the cap into a slightly bigger collet to fit, then cut a flat every 60 degrees. 

Easy peasy. Here are some photos.


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## DPittman (Friday at 8:45 PM)

Susquatch said:


> Since the forum was down, I took some time to modify another injector.
> 
> Here is the original and my modified cap to take a 1/2" socket. The cap screws onto the top of the injector return line manifold.
> 
> ...


Looks good.  One thing that is not clear to me....is that part you put a hex on just a cap? Is it solid?  It doesn't appear to be threaded in?  Just oring seal? And if so why would a feature that allows it to be turned be helpful....don't you need more pulling force than twisting?


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## Susquatch (Friday at 8:51 PM)

DPittman said:


> Looks good.  One thing that is not clear to me....is that part you put a hex on just a cap? Is it solid?  It doesn't appear to be threaded in?  Just oring seal? And if so why would a feature that allows it to be turned be helpful....don't you need more pulling force than twisting?



It is actually a nut. It has an internal thread that fits the top of the threaded injector body. As it is tightened, it pulls the manifold down onto the injector. 

I have no idea why it didn't have socket flats from the git-go. Perhaps to stop folks from over-tightening?


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## DPittman (Friday at 8:55 PM)

Susquatch said:


> It is actually a nut. It has an internal thread that fits the top of the threaded injector body. As it is tightened, it pulls the manifold down onto the injector.
> 
> I have no idea why it didn't have socket flats from the git-go. Perhaps to stop folks from over-tightening?


Oh I see, how utterly stupid of the designers to make it that way.  Torque specifications would have been an intelligent way to address concerns of over tightening.  Good fix on your part!


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## Susquatch (Friday at 9:02 PM)

DPittman said:


> Oh I see, how utterly stupid of the designers to make it that way.  Torque specifications would have been an intelligent way to address concerns of over tightening.  Good fix on your part!



I'm pretty chuffed with the improvement. But a small part of me thinks I am overlooking something important..... 

Anyway, you can only imagine how hard it is to tighten a round nut when it is buried behind a whole mess of other parts and sits on an angle that is very hard to grab.


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## Susquatch (Monday at 5:15 PM)

Here are a few more details of this project. 

The nut showing the internal threads. They are 0.25 mm pitch. 






The pliers I made from a regular plier that would hold the cap at an angle. I never did see the JDeere tool. I just made it to look like what they described. The pliers were required to remove the old caps before machining. They worked like crap. A rubber sleeve might have improved them. A small vice grip worked better but mangled the caps.


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