# Poor mans milling



## fireguyfire (Oct 25, 2021)

I’m fairly  new to machining, and I have a good working Atlas 9” lathe.
As you all know, you fairly quickly realize the need to be able to do some milling, and eventually I’d love to add a Bridgeport to my shop, if I can find a good used one I can afford.

In the near future, for the small things I’m doing I was thinking of either setting up my large drill press for milling, or finding an Atlas milling attachment for my lathe.
I realize that neither really replace a proper milling machine, but I’m curious on your opinions on which would be the better temporary option; drill press or lathe attachment milling?

Thanks for any opinions.


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## Mcgyver (Oct 25, 2021)

the Atlas lathe can be use for a lot of milling....facing creates flat surfaces for example and you can add a vertical slide.  Don't use a drill pre3ss for milling...it can be dangerous.  Morse tapers can easily let go with sideways force is applied potentially sending a spinning cutter across the table like a Dee Snider styled battling top.  Mills that use MT's have a drawbar.


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## trlvn (Oct 25, 2021)

Do you have a specific operation that you need to do?  If so, maybe we can suggest a workable approach.

BTW, if you look at old articles and books, guys in the 1930's to the 1970's (??) were doing a lot of really fine work without milling machines.  Creative setups with a faceplate can do some amazing stuff.

Craig


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## fireguyfire (Oct 25, 2021)

Ok; I guess ill start the hunt for an Atlas milling attachment.
I think I read somewhere that it’s not wise to hold a milling bit in a 3 jaw chuck because they can loosen, so you should use a collect.
Is that correct?


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## fireguyfire (Oct 25, 2021)

Nothing specific; just general tool and part making.


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

I agree with the others comments above.  I too had only a lathe (but smaller) and wanted to do some milling.  I tried milling with my large 20" drill press and it was pretty much a wreck.  First of all it didn't take much chatter to make the chuck come loose from the spindle. I also found that the drill press table had too little rigidity which added to the chatter.

I made my own little milling attachment for my lathe and while it was slow and certainly less than ideal it was much better than my attempts on the drill press and I it allowed me to do some actual milling. 

I did end up buying myself a small milling machine eventually.  

I think a lathe milling attachment is a very reasonable solution for those that have limited funds, space and milling to do. Just know that there are alot of compromises.


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## trlvn (Oct 25, 2021)

fireguyfire said:


> Ok; I guess ill start the hunt for an Atlas milling attachment.
> I think I read somewhere that it’s not wise to hold a milling bit in a 3 jaw chuck because they can loosen, so you should use a collect.
> Is that correct?


Some people seem to get away with using a chuck.  I bought a couple of end mill holders (USD 25 +/-) that fit the morse taper in my spindle:















						End Mill Holder, 3MT, 3/8" 1632
					

Mill Tooling 1632 3/8" Hole Diameter; 3 Morse Taper Shank; Uses a 3/8"-16 NC Drawbar; Compatible with Mills with 3 Morse Taper Spindle; Adapter for 3/...




					littlemachineshop.com
				




The above is just an example; I don't know your spindle taper or the size of end mill you want to use.

Craig


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

Yes the MTend mill holders eliminates the cutter coming loose from the chuck which is a problem but keeping the end mill holder in the drill spindle is a problem without a drawbar.

If you are referring to using the end mill holder in the tailstock of a lathe...yes that is the way to go for lathe milling.  And they are cheap to buy also.


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## gerritv (Oct 25, 2021)

DPittman said:


> And they are cheap to buy also.


Yes, until you add USD55 from LMS to ship 4 of MT2 1/2" end mill holders. :-( Do you have a Canadian source by chance?

Gerrit


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

gerritv said:


> Yes, until you add USD55 from LMS to ship 4 of MT2 1/2" end mill holders. :-( Do you have a Canadian source by chance?
> 
> Gerrit


I believe I bought some from BusyBee for a reasonable prize or possibly Amazon.ca. I know pretty much everything has gone up significantly the last couple of years, some of my cheap purchases now cost double what I paid 2-3 years ago.


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

A quick check on Amazon and Busybee

HHIP 3900-1215 Mt2 Morse Taper End Mill Holder-Drawbar End, 3/8" https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00R13W3E0/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_PFFVYTY8SDPBPBCBT6DP









						END MILL HOLDER ½IN. MT3 DRAWBAR
					

Busy Bee Tools is Canada's largest Woodworking & Metalworking retailer. Find power tools, woodworking tools & metalworking tools at factory direct prices.




					www.busybeetools.com


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 25, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> ...Morse tapers can easily let go with sideways force is applied potentially sending a spinning cutter across the table like a Dee Snider styled battling top.


That's an image now etched in my brain. Great example. Great use of language.


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## trlvn (Oct 25, 2021)

DPittman said:


> keeping the end mill holder in the drill spindle is a problem without a drawbar.


I meant to mention that I cobbled up a drawbar:






Just all-thread with an old handle and a collar sized to fit the outboard end of the spindle.  Worked OK-ish for me.  

Craig


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I meant to mention that I cobbled up a drawbar:
> 
> View attachment 17875
> 
> ...


Did you drill spindle have the hole down the middle already or was that something you added?


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## trlvn (Oct 25, 2021)

DPittman said:


> Did you drill spindle have the hole down the middle already or was that something you added?


Sorry, I missed that you were referring to a drill spindle.  This is for my Atlas 618 lathe.

Craig


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## DPittman (Oct 25, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Sorry, I missed that you were referring to a drill spindle.  This is for my Atlas 618 lathe.
> 
> Craig


Ha ha confusion on my side as well...all straight now.


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## Tom Kitta (Oct 25, 2021)

You can pick up milling attachment for myford for like 120 CAD off amazon - so I am sure you can fine something for your Atlas or quickly make a riser block. 

To convert drill press into a milling machine - even very light one - is not easy. 

Problem 1 - retention of the end mill holder - method 1 is a draw bar - but it may not be possible to either drill your spindle (at least accurately) for size reasons. Method 2 is a collar - i.e. you just adapt the end of your spindle to have a lock there with say a locking screw, or a screw on collar or something - probably easier. Method 3 is some kind of contraption that prevents chuck from side loading. 

Problem 2 - bearing side loading. Here I think either you just don't care or replace the bearings. 

There is also the problem of mass - etc. but above two should be the bigger issue. Would it out preform a lathe such as yours with a milling attachment? Probably not - but I do not know.


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## Susquatch (Oct 26, 2021)

Well, I get what everyone is saying. But I did successfully use a drill press as a crude mill for prolly 20 years. Mine was a beaver floor model. I didn't even try to use tapered milling Cutter holders. I bought 1/2 or smaller end mills or I used straight shaft tools that fit my drill chuck. I also added a Taiwanese x-y table with T-Slots to the platform. 

The old Beaver drill presses have side bearings that can handle a fairly significant side load. The chuck is on a taper, but it is also held on with a threaded collar and a lock key. I was never concerned about it coming off or creating an imaginary horror movie. The biggest issue it had was a shortage of power. 

All that said, used bench top column mills are available from time-to-time and might be a better option than a milling attachment for your lathe. 

If I had my life to live over again though, I would have bought a used Bridgeport or a BP clone 30 years ago and fixed it up right away instead of taking three intermediate steps to get there. I'm getting on in years now and I would have enjoyed it so much more in my 40s and 50s. Too soon old - too late smart.


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## DPittman (Oct 26, 2021)

Oh man my list of do overs would be extensive if we got second chances!


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## Tom Kitta (Oct 26, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Well, I get what everyone is saying. But I did successfully use a drill press as a crude mill for prolly 20 years. Mine was a beaver floor model. I didn't even try to use tapered milling Cutter holders. I bought 1/2 or smaller end mills or I used straight shaft tools that fit my drill chuck. I also added a Taiwanese x-y table with T-Slots to the platform.
> 
> The old Beaver drill presses have side bearings that can handle a fairly significant side load. The chuck is on a taper, but it is also held on with a threaded collar and a lock key. I was never concerned about it coming off or creating an imaginary horror movie. The biggest issue it had was a shortage of power.
> 
> ...



Yeah but your drill press was already modified to handle light milling - most DP are not even close. It has a collar I was talking about and it has bearings to handle side loading. Essentially it is factory modified DP to handle light milling. One could say it was a grand father of a mill-drill.


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## Susquatch (Oct 26, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> Yeah but your drill press was already modified to handle light milling - most DP are not even close. It has a collar I was talking about and it has bearings to handle side loading. Essentially it is factory modified DP to handle light milling. One could say it was a grand father of a mill-drill.



Yes, I would say that's about right. It was never advertised for light milling, but it did work. I'm thinking you might have a hard time finding another one like it. 

Interesting analogy. Especially since my next machine was a big bench top mill/drill. I say big because nobody is lifting that grandson without another two or three big guys.


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## fireguyfire (Oct 26, 2021)

So next question; would you guys say there is much difference between using a lathe milling attachment, or using a benchtop mill like a Rusnok 80
type machine?
Looks like a good used benchtop mill is about triple the cost of a lathe milling attachment.


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## DPittman (Oct 26, 2021)

Yes there are considerable differences. One of the main one that comes to mind is your work envelope.  Even tho the benchmarks are small I think most will likely give more ability to machine a larger work piece.  On your lathe, your cross slide travel is the equivalent to the y axis on a milling machine.  The milling attachment will give you the x axis (some people refer to these axis in opposite terms) .  

Work holding is more difficult on most lathe milling attachments as opposed to a milling machine.

Any cutters and most all other set up and holding devices you might aquire in owning a lathe milling attachment will likely be useable with a milling machine should you decide to upgrade down the road.


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## trlvn (Oct 26, 2021)

In general, if you see yourself continuing with machining, you should invest in a mill.  The size depends on the work you expect to do.  If you strictly want to do miniatures and models or other small projects, then a mini mill could work.  A milling attachment on a lathe is generally a VERY limited thing.  Very small size parts, very small light cuts, huge setup time, etc.

Along the same lines, a lot of new metal workers get excited about a combination lathe/mill like a Smithy or similar.  And some people do great work with them.  Most people, however, find the mill portion to lack rigidity, are limited by the small 'table' and constrained by the work envelope.  A lot of people who buy a combo machine soon upgrade to separate machines because of these limitations.

You said you have an Atlas 9 inch, right?  This one?











__





						Atlas 9-inch lathe
					

Atlas 10-inch lathes from the first to last. Includes details of the British copies by Acorntools, Sphere and halifax



					www.lathes.co.uk
				




I know Atlas made milling attachments for the later 6 and 10 inch lathes but I don't know about these models.

I think the 9 inch models were only made in the early 1930's?  If so, you've got a really old, very light duty machine.  Probably with a non-trivial amount of wear over the years.  Asking it to do milling work is a lot.  It seems unlikely that you're going to be happy with the result.

OTOH, you can use a 4-jaw chuck or face plate in creative ways to do milling-like operations with the lathe.  For example, I mounted a rectangular part in my 4-jaw to create a t-nut (ie a round boss).  So it largely depends on what you want to do.

Craig


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## fireguyfire (Oct 26, 2021)

Great tips; that photo is very close to my lathe. I was lucky that my lathe was in the basement of a farmhouse since new and only saw hobby and small work and not much of that, so it is still very much in spec and with the QCTP I added does most things I need well.


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## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

I find that I waste a lot of money upgrading things. 

You sound like you are enjoying your lathe. I think you can be confident that you will also enjoy a good mill. 

In my opinion mills and lathes are like the partners of a good marriage. They compliment each other and together they are more than either one is individually (1+1=3). A combo machine is less than that. Perhaps only 1.5 which is still better than 1 but only half of the 3.

I think you will be happier in the end if you get a nice mill. The size depends mostly on your space and the kind of work you think you might do.


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## Johnwa (Oct 27, 2021)

fireguyfire said:


> So next question; would you guys say there is much difference between using a lathe milling attachment, or using a benchtop mill like a Rusnok 80
> type machine?
> Looks like a good used benchtop mill is about triple the cost of a lathe milling attachment.


A lathe saddle essentially just sits on top of the ways.  Normal lathe work exerts a downward force so that’s okay.  When milling on a lathe the cutting forces can end up in other directions including upwards which can be a problem.


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## fireguyfire (Oct 27, 2021)

Well, you guys have convinced me that the milling attachment is probably not the way to go.
I’ll start my hunt for a home shop milling machine; if anyone has a line on one in the Calgary area, feel free to let me know!!


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## Degen (Dec 27, 2021)

Over the years I have learned to improvise a lot, and still have all my body parts, though its been close on few occasions.

Before I had a metal lathe I used a hand held drill. It was interesting and it worked.

The lathe, used for milling small items.

Drill press arcs with hand feed and end mill hand ground from broken drill bit.

Radial Arm Saw, mill aluminum, finger count and body check needed on occasion.

Small knee Mill...which is going CNC finally.

Latest Deckel clone from Shars (days ago), little learning curve but producing acceptable results.


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## gerritv (Dec 27, 2021)

Congrats on the d-bit grinder. Like with the milling-on-a-lathe, don't let people tell it is not a good machine. It can in fact do an incredible amount more than just d-bits.

Gerrit


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## Degen (Dec 27, 2021)

Thanks, I bought it to do end mills, mainly to the end cutting edges, because of how I use them.  A little practice and it should preform very well.

The second application is for custom shapes on end mills.

I figure about 15 jobs pay for itself.


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## gerritv (Dec 27, 2021)

fireguyfire said:


> Well, you guys have convinced me that the milling attachment is probably not the way to go.
> I’ll start my hunt for a home shop milling machine; if anyone has a line on one in the Calgary area, feel free to let me know!!


And how do you know that the lathe milling attachment won't do what you need? Those carriage mounted devices have been producing amazing results for decades. Yes, a vertical mill mightbe nice, but also more space, more in tooling and more in money. If you don't need the work envelope, then just use the milling attacment until you actually do need it.

I built this engine on a Taig with milling slide. (The pulleys were cut on my no-name horizontal mill but could have been done on the Taig as well.) Don't underestimate what you can do with modest tools. Not everything needs a Bridgeport.

Gerrit


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## LenVW (Dec 28, 2021)

Good advice from Gerritv. 
Being creative yields results and let’s you make use of tools that you are familiar with.
Add-in’s are costly and tedious until you experience their limitations.


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## Degen (Dec 28, 2021)

Te secret to all skills (machining/metalwork or others), is not being limited by what is the norm.    In a lot of cases those with limited resources are more inventive in coming up with results because they have little or no preconceived notion of education imposed limitations.

The simple approach......

See the problem, review your resources, solve the problem accordingly, keep at it till it gets the desired result.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 28, 2021)

After about 30 years of collecting and reconditioning I've got a lot of stuff.  I enjoy having a lot of stuff.  However I was just as happy in the begining as a beginner without much.  So stuff is not the key to happiness.  It is however the key to getting a heck of a lot more things done in a block of time


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