# Pushed into my yard



## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

This was pushed into my yard today by a friend and his son now tucked away into a small storage area.  Apparently it needs a bunch of work he's not capable of doing and a shop would charge close to the price of a new one so they bought a new one.  Since I didn't take a picture when it was still on the driveway I found a photo of one online.  Close enough...






Once my son returns my battery charger and I've reached the 3 week point after my TURP surgery I can start figuring out what needs to be done to fix it.  Comes with the grass catcher and has (very dull) mulching blades so odds are instead of 2 hours mowing I should be able to reduce that to under 1 hour.


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## YotaBota (Aug 13, 2022)

All the best in your recovery John.
Do you know if the mower runs?, I have the same machine.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

Here's what I was told by my friend:

"_I wasn't here. Wife and son were trying to have it fixed behind my back, so I really don't know what it was. My son mentioned that it may have been some cap replacement. Distributor cap, maybe? I think it was pretty close to a complete overhaul. Another option was to get a new engine for $800ish? and install it myself. Hah. That wouldn't work."_

My friend isn't mechanically inclined.  I'm not allowed to lift and bend for another 3 weeks so other than ordering some parts I can't do anything on it.  They needed the room for their new one.


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## YotaBota (Aug 13, 2022)

Those engines have a solenoid fuel shut off on the bottom of the carb that often fails, the result is the engine fills with gas and hydraulic locks. If it won't turn over you can (when you can) pull the plug and crank it over and see if fuel pumps out.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Those engines have a solenoid fuel shut off on the bottom of the carb that often fails, the result is the engine fills with gas and hydraulic locks. If it won't turn over you can (when you can) pull the plug and crank it over and see if fuel pumps out.


Thank you.  I wondered what that was underneath the carb bowel.  With an unknown engine that runs poorly one of the first things I do is remove and clean out the bowel.  Often a lot of crap inside.  As soon as I am allowed I'll check into that.


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## 140mower (Aug 13, 2022)

Almost sounds like it went in for a cam replacement. It's a quite common failure in the B&S Inteck engines. Generally one of the tabs breaks off for the compression release. Not a terrible job to do, but expensive if you are paying shop rates....


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

140mower said:


> Almost sounds like it went in for a cam replacement. It's a quite common failure in the B&S Inteck engines. Generally one of the tabs breaks off for the compression release. Not a terrible job to do, but expensive if you are paying shop rates....


Too early to fear that level of maintenance. Although a cam failure with a valve pushing against a rising piston is another physical feature of an engine that won't turn over.


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## 140mower (Aug 13, 2022)

Actually, piston to valve interference isn't a problem. The compression release does just that it lets off a little bit of compression during starting, once the engine is running the compression release has no function on operation. Usually if it won't turn over, you can back spin the engine by hand using the flywheel screen and try starting again. If it gets over the hump and starts, the release is generally at fault. Assuming that the battery and starter are good.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

140mower said:


> Actually, piston to valve interference isn't a problem. The compression release does just that it lets off a little bit of compression during starting, once the engine is running the compression release has no function on operation. Usually if it won't turn over, you can back spin the engine by hand using the flywheel screen and try starting again. If it gets over the hump and starts, the release is generally at fault. Assuming that the battery and starter are good.


I've been looking at the exploded diagrams and I can't find a compression relief.  Not called that at least.








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I have the original paper one too, a little worn.  There is something called a Reed Breather.  Not sure what that is.


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## 140mower (Aug 14, 2022)

The compression release is an integral part of the cam gear assembly. It functions much the same way the mechanical advance inside a distributor does. At low speeds (starting) it holds a valve open just a titch, once started the fly weights pull the little tab out of the way of the valve and full power is available. They're really just a crappy little device so you can get away with a near worthless battery and an anemic starter with a plastic gear.....


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## 140mower (Aug 14, 2022)

This picture shows the pin and flyweight....


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

140mower said:


> View attachment 25549
> This picture shows the pin and flyweight....


So it's part of the part number for cam and cam gear assembly.  Great photo.  Where did you find that?


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## 140mower (Aug 14, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> So it's part of the part number for cam and cam gear assembly.  Great photo.  Where did you find that?


I just googled inteck camshaft. It looks slightly different from what I recall, but with age most things do.....   Yes, it's part of the same part number as the cam and gear.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

140mower said:


> I just googled inteck camshaft. It looks slightly different from what I recall, but with age most things do.....   Yes, it's part of the same part number as the cam and gear.


Thanks.  I tried googling that and did find the same thing.  So here's the question.  
I can see how the spring loaded piece will fly outward once the CAM is turning above a specific RPM.  While cranking, what does it push?  Or is the CAM follower wide enough to be caught by it too.   It looks like it's too far away.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

So aside from the normal spark-plug and cable, fuel filter etc. there are these possibilities:
1. Defective battery that can't be charged enough to even crank engine.
2. Electrical interlock open circuit or Fuse blown.
3. Defective starter motor/solenoid.
4. Fuel Shut off at bottom of float bowl defective
5. Broken spring loaded compression relief cam on cam shaft.

It's my older son's birthday today.  We're taking his family out for dinner and he's returning my intelligent marine battery charger which won't even bother charging if the health of the battery is crappy.  

Baby steps.
If it's the CAM shaft it's closer to a full engine rebuild and that means I have to clean up my shop a teensy bit.  Dig out my parts washer from the storage shed...


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## YotaBota (Aug 14, 2022)

I have an 18hp engine with what I'm told is a busted crank, the cam could be okay. It is complete with carb and starter and stuff, if you want it for parts bring some muscle and it's yours.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> I have an 18hp engine with what I'm told is a busted crank, the cam could be okay. It is complete with carb and starter and stuff, if you want it for parts bring some muscle and it's yours.


Thanks.  I really appreciate that and I will let you know.  

Currently charging battery which I'm pretty sure is from 02/17 so will cost $69 from Cdn. to replace.   Next if it doesn't turn over I'll pull the spark plug and see if I can turn it by hand.  But now we're getting into the kind of bending and movement I'm not supposed to do for a few weeks.

Must be nice to my body.  Only one I've got...


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

So put the battery back.  Turned key.  Hear starter gear engage but nothing turns.  Try that a few times and suddenly it turns maybe one rev.  Turn key off and rotate engine by hand.  Can feel compression stroke. 
Move it to a point where it's easy to turn.  Switch on and turn key.  Spins a half rev or so and then stops.  What looks to be compression stroke in each case.
Suggests that CAM is the problem if it's supposed to allow engine to turn easily.  Especially on the compression stroke.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

Great description here on the problem and step by step repair.  Reminds me of setting the valve lash on my 1964 MGB.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 14, 2022)

So I have what is perhaps a silly question.  Not holding the cam shaft with centrifugal assembly in my hand I am perhaps a bit ignorant about what can be done.  After it's unlikely most small engine repair shops have full CNC mills etc.

So why can't this broken assembly be replaced with a manufactured part.  Why is it that B&S sells a complete CAM shaft, Lobes, Gear and centrifugal assembly rather than a simple part and spring.  Why does it even break in half?  Cast metal perhaps?

I almost feel like buying the cheapest far east clone (not recommended in the above video "don't ask me how I know").  But using it as a model for milling out my own.  Given what we build in our machine shops how hard can it be?


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 15, 2022)

After watching the video i would suspect a design engineer screwed up again.


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## PaulL (Aug 15, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> design engineer screwed up again.


"Optimized a different measure"


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 15, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> After watching the video i would suspect a design engineer screwed up again.


What's odd, is this problem exists on a number of different size B&S engines and has for a number of years.

I'm not so sure it's a design screw-up as much as a compromise to keep costs at a minimum.  

The friends who gave me the tractor bought another one.  They had this one for 11 years.  I'll ask and report back whether the new one also has a B&S engine.  If it does then this 'design' problem isn't really hurting B&S.

And I've seen cars have problems way sooner than 11 years old that require massive repair bills due to 'design' problems.

The other video I watched showed the operator holding a piece of rubber over the intake while cranking preventing air intake (kind of an air tight choke) so that compression was limited and the starter could spin it up to speed.  He then remove the rubber and the tractor started.  Of course in the video I noticed he wasn't sitting in the seat so he'd also disabled the seat switch.  Not a good idea.  

I think there are lots of more expensive solutions to this problem.  Likely a $100 factory brand CAM assembly, if available, is the easiest solution.


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## RobinHood (Aug 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Of course in the video I noticed he wasn't sitting in the seat so he'd also disabled the seat switch. Not a good idea.


Don’t know about your particular mover, but on JDs you can set the parking brake and then start the engine without being in the seat. No disabling of the seat switch required.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 15, 2022)

Quick update.  Although I cannot find the youtube video again I did take a piece of old inner tube, remove the air filter and hold it over the carb air intake while cranking.  Before that I verified that: a) without spark plug the engine cranked properly;  b) With spark plug connected and body grounded I could see a spark while cranking.

Sure enough, just like in the video, blocking the air intake results in no air in cylinder and therefore minimal compression and the engine turns over quickly.  Yank away the rubber and on the second try the engine started.  Opened the choke let it run and blow blue smoke out and was eventually able to get it to almost idle and blue smoke vanished.  

It still sounds really rough.  Not a happy engine no matter what.  Could be valve lash needs adjustment. Likely carb needs cleaning.  I blew out the air filter and it's better but a new one would be best.

Another video shows an intact compression relief cam mechanism but the CAM incredibly worn on the peak of the lobe.

Only aftermarket cam assemblies are available at the moment and based on one video not all are created equal. Lowes in the USA want's $900 for a new engine. Lowes here doesn't even list it.

No point in spending money on battery or air filter until starting problem is solved which requires a partial tear down and there's no point in doing that unless I can get a genuine part.

I wonder what would be involved in swapping it over to fully electric?


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## 140mower (Aug 15, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Don’t know about your particular mover, but on JDs you can set the parking brake and then start the engine without being in the seat. No disabling of the seat switch required.


Every one that I have seen works that way, as long as all of the interlock switches are operational. One other regularly overlooked features is the mowing in reverse switch. On JD's it's a yellow button that you hold while first engaging the reverse pedal, on Craftsman and Husqvarna etc you can usually turn the key back one more position after realeasing the starter. This second run position is the reverse mow enable....


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## 140mower (Aug 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Quick update.  Although I cannot find the youtube video again I did take a piece of old inner tube, remove the air filter and hold it over the carb air intake while cranking.  Before that I verified that: a) without spark plug the engine cranked properly;  b) With spark plug connected and body grounded I could see a spark while cranking.
> 
> Sure enough, just like in the video, blocking the air intake results in no air in cylinder and therefore minimal compression and the engine turns over quickly.  Yank away the rubber and on the second try the engine started.  Opened the choke let it run and blow blue smoke out and was eventually able to get it to almost idle and blue smoke vanished.
> 
> ...


No idea on the cost to convert to electric, but when I replaced the briggs on mine, I put in a Kawasaki that came from a higher level john deere that was being scrapped. $200 and I put that issue behind me.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 15, 2022)

140mower said:


> No idea on the cost to convert to electric, but when I replaced the briggs on mine, I put in a Kawasaki that came from a higher level john deere that was being scrapped. $200 and I put that issue behind me.


Well Princess Auto has a 17.5HP drop in replacement for only $999.99.  A new tractor starts at $2300.  The motor is in stock.  Who knows when I'll get a B&S quality CAM assembly.  Some of the ones out there for less than $99 are apparently really good cheap forgeries that fail within hours.  I only want to rebuilt the engine once.  Not every couple of months.


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## trlvn (Aug 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Likely carb needs cleaning


Dollars to donuts, it's the carb!

Craig


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 15, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Dollars to donuts, it's the carb!
> 
> Craig


A replacement engine is ready to go.  This engine will need to wait for the OEM CAM shaft due in November but will also require a carb rebuild, battery, air filter and mover will require blade sharpening and maybe a new 92.5" belt. 
The rough running may also be due to the governor and on this engine it has tabs that throw the oil around.  This version does not have the oil pump and filter.  (Nor does the PA version).
I checked into electric motors with this power rating (17.5HP * 755W) = 13kW. 

I wonder how much power is actually needed to spin the blades at 3000 RPM?

Anyway.  At this point it's all up in the air because I'm not allowed to lift anything over 30 lbs so the motor at 80 is out of the question.  Which means nothing will get done until fall.


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## Tom O (Aug 15, 2022)

I would think Princess auto will probably have their engines on sale as we approach winter.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 15, 2022)

Tom O said:


> I would think Princess auto will probably have their engines on sale as we approach winter.


You are suggesting of course that unless I need it I should wait.  Probably a good idea.


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## PaulL (Aug 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> At this point it's all up in the air because I'm not allowed to lift anything over 30 lbs so the motor at 80 is out of the question. Which means nothing will get done until fall.


Which really means the important work is happening right now - figuring out if it's worth doing.  At the numbers you've shown to date, I don't think it sells on at a win on your time.  But if you want used mower for $1200 you're right there.


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 16, 2022)

I bought a 9hp motor from PA to replace the Honda on my post pounder. Been running fine for 6 year now but does not like to start in cold weather. Who wants to build fence in cold weather anyway.


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