# Paul Made a Thing



## PaulL (Apr 8, 2022)

After my adventures on my first turning project - the stud to hold my quick change tool post - I thought I try something a bit more modest.
Meet my new tap follower:






Truly an object of distinction.  It's made from the scraps of my failed threading exercises.  I probably didn't have to make this out of 4140.  I bet if I'd used a sensible material I'd have a better surface finish.
I did learn about carbide a bit more - my finishes were better on my 10 thou passes than on my 2 thou "finishing" passes.  Sometimes it felt like it was just grinding in the swarf instead of disposing of it nicely.
And for completeness, here is my new toy next to its predecessor, which was much less satisfactory in design, bulk, finish, and general timeliness:




Next: some keepers for the keepers on my little backhoe's  bucket so I don't have to pull out two wrenches/sockets every time I swap my buckets around.


----------



## Brent H (Apr 8, 2022)

Great job!!!! I too have work to do on my backhoe bucket!  Nice job 4140 can be a pain to get a great finish on


----------



## kevin.decelles (Apr 8, 2022)

great work!  Some of my best finishes are by accident and When I’m trying hard it doesn’t always work out....... put another way, I get ya!


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 8, 2022)

Nice!  I need to get off my butt and make one of those, it's been on my to-do list for quit some time now


----------



## Tomc938 (Apr 8, 2022)

I love the fact that we can make many of the tools we need for inn the shop!  Well done.  You will get years of service out of this. (as compared to the two uses I got out of the tap follower I made out of aluminum.  (quick and dirty build to get me to the next step)


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> After my adventures on my first turning project - the stud to hold my quick change tool post - I thought I try something a bit more modest.
> Meet my new tap follower:
> 
> View attachment 22899
> ...



Nice! I love the way you salvaged your previous work! I bought a tap follower. It works quite well for what it is and what I paid for it. But it could be sooooo much nicer with a little attention to detail. It's on my project list for "someday". 

I have a backhoe too. But I have no idea what is a keeper is? And what is a keeper for a keeper?


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Nice! I love the way you salvaged your previous work! I bought a tap follower. It works quite well for what it is and what I paid for it. But it could be sooooo much nicer with a little attention to detail. It's on my project list for "someday".
> 
> I have a backhoe too. But I have no idea what is a keeper is? And what is a keeper for a keeper?


The two moveable pins on which the bucket rotates have short plates attached that "keep" the pins from sliding laterally and falling out.  These plates in turn are drilled and bolted to the bucket to "keep" them in place, and so keep the pins in place.  I am, of course, generalizing from a sample size of one - that's the setup on my little Kubota.  
I'm sure these bits have proper names, but the parts manual has no names for them.
In any case, these last bolts take almost no force and are secured by nylocs.  And they are annoying to reach with a spanner.  So I'll see if I can fit up something robust enough but manageable with maybe only one wrench.


----------



## Janger (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> I did learn about carbide a bit more - my finishes were better on my 10 thou passes than on my 2 thou "finishing" passes.  Sometimes it felt like it was just grinding in the swarf instead of disposing of it nicely.



Try turning up the rpm’s - lots - with carbide.

And is it spring loaded?


----------



## ShawnR (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> The two moveable pins on which the bucket rotates have short plates attached that "keep" the pins from sliding laterally and falling out.  These plates in turn are drilled and bolted to the bucket to "keep" them in place, and so keep the pins in place.  I am, of course, generalizing from a sample size of one - that's the setup on my little Kubota.
> I'm sure these bits have proper names, but the parts manual has no names for them.
> In any case, these last bolts take almost no force and are secured by nylocs.  And they are annoying to reach with a spanner.  So I'll see if I can fit up something robust enough but manageable with maybe only one wrench.



My movable pins have just washers and cotter pins on them. The fixed pins look like the attached, with bolts going through the holes into tapped holes in the bucket.


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> My movable pins have just washers and cotter pins on them. The fixed pins look like the attached, with bolts going through the holes into tapped holes in the bucket.


Ah, tapped holes.  Yes, that looks just like the two I have to move every time I change my bucket.  Instead of tapped holes Kubota used nylocs.  And being so small there's basically no clearance for a socket.  I might just tap the buckets - that seems like a good solution.


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

Janger said:


> Try turning up the rpm’s - lots - with carbide.
> 
> And is it spring loaded?


Yep, spring loaded.  Made the spring out of some "worn out" guitar strings I've been keeping around for some use.  I might have a lifetime's supply of small spring wire.


----------



## Dusty (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> Yep, spring loaded.  Made the spring out of some "worn out" guitar strings I've been keeping around for some use.  I might have a lifetime's supply of small spring wire.



@plalonde  Enjoyed your tap follower post, how do you determine the spring compression required for tap follower? Perhaps it's all by trial and error, just guessing!

I would need to purchase a spring locally if even available, most likely somewhere in Regina.


----------



## Dusty (Apr 9, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Nice!  I need to get off my butt and make one of those, it's been on my to-do list for quit some time now



Hey Craig, you're not alone in doing this. I have a smallish tap follower, could use a larger one or at least have one on hand.  

Been busy in my shop again with a post update to follow Monday, felt really good my being out there making a mess.


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 9, 2022)

Dusty said:


> Hey Craig, you're not alone in doing this. I have a smallish tap follower, could use a larger one or at least have one on hand.
> 
> Been busy in my shop again with a post update to follow Monday, felt really good my being out there making a mess.



Go Bill Go

If you need a spring let me  know.  I may have something here.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

@ShawnR, @plalonde ,

Here are the two types used on my backhoe. Never heard either one of them called a keeper. But it's as good a name as any. 









So now I know what a Keeper is. 

But what is a keeper for a keeper? 

Yes - what @Janger said about carbide. 

But I prefer to go slow so I like HSS.


----------



## ShawnR (Apr 9, 2022)

Yep, my home built uses the same type of security for pins, depending on whether the pin is intended to rotate with articulation or not. I would take photos, but, well.......


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

@YYCHM , @plalonde , @Dusty

If any of you are gunna design a "better" Tap follower, here is my wish list of what I want to accomplish in mine. If you should happen to embrace this challenge, please post your design so we can all make one.

- a long enough throw so I don't have to keep taking up the slack. It should be long enough so it can be engaged once for the whole job - basically the same throw length as the tap itself.

- better fit on the pin to the sleeve. I really don't like it wobbling around as the tap is turned.

- a better spring force. Enough to get it to cut soon, and enough to keep it engaged on the end of the tap, but not so much that it starts out drilling instead of cutting threads.

- reversable pin so it can be used in a center end or on the outside of the square end of the tap.

- I do not care if it turns. In some ways it is actually preferable if it does.

- a big one should fit a 5/8 chuck, a medium one should fit a 1/2" chuck, and a small one should fit a 1/4 inch chuck.


----------



## DPittman (Apr 9, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> @ShawnR, @plalonde ,
> 
> Here are the two types used on my backhoe. Never heard either one of them called a keeper. But it's as good a name as any.
> 
> ...


Now that is a bucket that looks like it hasn't done much work yet?


----------



## Dusty (Apr 9, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Yep, my home built uses the same type of security for pins, depending on whether the pin is intended to rotate with articulation or not. I would take photos, but, well.......



What is all that white stuff? LOL


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

Dusty said:


> @plalonde  Enjoyed your tap follower post, how do you determine the spring compression required for tap follower? Perhaps it's all by trial and error, just guessing!
> 
> I would need to purchase a spring locally if even available, most likely somewhere in Regina.


I rolled 5-6 before I had one I was happy with, with different wire and different mandrels.  I have no idea how durable it's going to be, but grabbing a few inches of one of the old wound E strings from the discard pile got me something firm enough.  The hardest part was judging travel length.  It is handy that springs have linear resistance along their lengths, so adjusting that was pretty easy.
I tried shopping for a spring and the spring people around here simply aren't hobbyist/low-volume friendly.  I also have some music wire (tempered high carbon wire0 0.031 wire coming, but I got impatient.


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> @ShawnR, @plalonde ,
> 
> Here are the two types used on my backhoe. Never heard either one of them called a keeper. But it's as good a name as any.
> 
> ...


If the plate on the pin is the keeper, then the bolt and nut on the plate must be my keeper's keeper ;-)

Paul


----------



## PaulL (Apr 9, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> @YYCHM , @plalonde , @Dusty
> 
> - a better spring force. Enough to get it to cut soon, and enough to keep it engaged on the end of the tap, but not so much that it starts out drilling instead of cutting threads.


And instantly I realize I will wind up with a collection of these with different spring forces depending on how big a tap I'm using.  I've used it now on some small grub scew holes, and testing up to 1/4", and it works, but it's marginal on pressure at that range.  
paul


----------



## Tom O (Apr 9, 2022)

I have an assortment of springs In a package from Princess Auto that I find useful.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Now that is a bucket that looks like it hasn't done much work yet?



When it's yours, you don't beat it to death. It's about 20 years old. I bought it new from a dealer that went backrupt in Ohio and sold their inventory on eBay. They had 20 of them or so. I did a crap load of research and found that it was best to win the very first one in the bidding. So I hammered it and scooped it while everyone else sat there watching to see what they would go for. I paid less than half what the rest went for and the last one went for 4 times what I paid. 

It was only lightly used for the first 10 years I owned it. But I have laid field tile, repaired field tile, dug ditches, and pulled out big rocks and tree stumps with it for the last 10 years and it got some good use - but not like an excavating company or anything like that. 

But ya, I do look after my stuff. The loader tractor I use it with is a beast with strong legs and great lungs.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> The hardest part was judging travel length. It is handy that springs have linear resistance along their lengths, so adjusting that was pretty easy.



It is linear, but the force is not constant - it goes up with compression. So it's best to preload them just below the required force and have them long enough so the fully compressed force isn't much more. That requires a long spring. 

Fortunately, the highest force is required at the beginning to get the tap going. After the tap is going, it feeds its own way into the drilled hole and the spring force is only required to keep the tap engaged in the follower. So that is all working in our favour. 

All the retail ones I've seen are short and stubby. But if I were making one, I'd prolly make it longer to accommodate a long spring and a long stroke.


----------



## Chicken lights (Apr 9, 2022)

plalonde said:


> If the plate on the pin is the keeper, then the bolt and nut on the plate must be my keeper's keeper ;-)
> 
> Paul


The plate on the pin style keeper is great- until shyte gets bent and the plate  shears off. Then the pin will walk out and the cylinder drops out of the loader frame. (Not quite the same on a bucket pin, I know). The last one I “fixed” I took a hunk of 1/2” flat bar, drilled another hole on the opposite side of the factory bolt hole, then tightened the bolts to make the plate a horseshoe holding the pin in. I’m 95% sure I didn’t bother drilling a hole to acces the grease zerk, with 1/2-3/4” of play in the joint what’s the point. 

I was “fixing” to stop the pin falling out, nothing more nothing less


----------



## ShawnR (Apr 9, 2022)

Tom O said:


> I have an assortment of springs In a package from Princess Auto that I find useful.



I used two compression springs from a kit like that, for my tap follower. They nested together. Seems to work but all I had at the time.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 9, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> The plate on the pin style keeper is great- until shyte gets bent and the plate  shears off. Then the pin will walk out and the cylinder drops out of the loader frame. (Not quite the same on a bucket pin, I know). The last one I “fixed” I took a hunk of 1/2” flat bar, drilled another hole on the opposite side of the factory bolt hole, then tightened the bolts to make the plate a horseshoe holding the pin in. I’m 95% sure I didn’t bother drilling a hole to acces the grease zerk, with 1/2-3/4” of play in the joint what’s the point.
> 
> I was “fixing” to stop the pin falling out, nothing more nothing less



Well, that's one end of the spectrum of what can happen when that plate shears off. 

A similar thing happened on my big disc harrow. The SOB who owned it before me didn't grease it regularly. As a result the pin seized and then galled which caused the plate to shear off. It took me three weeks to get the old pin out. 

Here is a link to that story! 

Post in thread 'Bridgeport Project' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/bridgeport-project.3521/post-48491


----------



## PaulL (Apr 12, 2022)

Following up on my backhoe bucket keeper.  Another fine object of distinction:





At this magnification I see that my chamfers on the knurling are rather inconsistent.  
I'm hoping the 1.5" diameter knob is enough to get a hold on to lock the M10x1.5 nut on the backside.  Probably not, but it won't hurt to try.
New skills on this one: turning up to a squarish shoulder, tapping with a die on the lathe.  The setup for that one wasn't bad.  I don't have a nifty die holder like Dusty, so I used the one from my cheap tap and die set and pushed on it with the Jacob's chuck in my tailstock.




I also pulled the handle out of my chuck key so I could hold it as a lever on the chuck (hmm, thinking about it now - is this contra-indicated?), pulling it as I pushed the die holder.  After a couple of turns it got into a nice rhythm of pull/push, tighten tailstock quill.
I'll know mid-next week when I next get out to the cabin how well it goes on the bucket.


----------



## DPittman (Apr 12, 2022)

plalonde said:


> Following up on my backhoe bucket keeper.  Another fine object of distinction:
> 
> View attachment 23009
> At this magnification I see that my chamfers on the knurling are rather inconsistent.
> ...


Your knurling looks great.
I use my chuck key the same way but with the handle attached still.
While I now have a tailstock die holder, I used that same "butt-up-to" method with the tailstock chuck also quite successfully before my my die holder.


----------



## 6.5 Fan (Apr 13, 2022)

A lot of my smaller taps don't have a hole for the spring loaded follower to fit in.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 13, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> A lot of my smaller taps don't have a hole for the spring loaded follower to fit in.



This is why the pin should be reversable. One end has an outside 60° point, and the other end has an inside 60° cone. The cone fits over the end of the small taps to align them. 

If not reversable, then at least interchangeable.


----------



## PaulL (Apr 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> This is why the pin should be reversable. One end has an outside 60° point, and the other end has an inside 60° cone.


On the other hand, they are so easy to make and take up so little space that I think I'd rather just have a separate one for the smaller taps. The travel is usually shorter and the spring force can be less.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 13, 2022)

plalonde said:


> On the other hand, they are so easy to make and take up so little space that I think I'd rather just have a separate one for the smaller taps. The travel is usually shorter and the spring force can be less.



I don't disagree. If you re-read my ideal tap follower wish list you will see that I want several. One for each given range of tap sizes. I don't know what those ranges should be just yet though - prolly similar to what the tap companies already specify. 

That said, each of those should still be either reversible or interchangeable too.


----------



## Chicken lights (Apr 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't disagree. If you re-read my ideal tap follower wish list you will see that I want several. One for each given range of tap sizes. I don't know what those ranges should be just yet though - prolly similar to what the tap companies already specify.
> 
> That said, each of those should still be either reversible or interchangeable too.


Can you just copy tap socket sizing?


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 13, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Can you just copy tap socket sizing?



That would work. But I don't think I'd want that many. Maybe every 3 sizes? I dunno. I have not really studied it much yet. Right now I just know I am not happy with what is out there.


----------



## Brent H (Apr 13, 2022)

This is what I have to hold the small taps.  The end piece fits in the drill chuck or a collet and keeps things straight for the smaller taps.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 13, 2022)

While not quite the same thing, I borrowed a set of these from @ThirtyOneDriver .  I loved them enough to buy my own set. They have an inside square drive for the tap and a rubber O-ring holds it in place. The small ones are 1/4 inch drive, and the bigger ones are 3/8 drive. 

They worked really well. I started them with a 1/4 screw driver and then switched to a t-handle. Infinitely better than the T-handle tap wrenches I used to use. 

They have no centering feature though so I will have to make a driver adapter of some kind to fit my mill / drill press / lathe.


----------



## Chicken lights (Apr 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> While not quite the same thing, I borrowed a set of these from @ThirtyOneDriver .  I loved them enough to buy my own set. They have an inside square drive for the tap and a rubber O-ring holds it in place. The small ones are 1/4 inch drive, and the bigger ones are 3/8 drive.
> 
> They worked really well. I started them with a 1/4 screw driver and then switched to a t-handle. Infinitely better than the T-handle tap wrenches I used to use.
> 
> ...


Those are handy in tight spots where a regular tap handle won’t fit, and kick arse for EZ outs too. Once you have a set you kick yourself for not having them. 

Last time I used them was on an engine block, tapping motor mount bolts. Had an extra long 3/8” drive ratchet to get extra leverage to cut the threads. No way would a tap handle have cut the mustard. (pun unintentional)


----------



## 6.5 Fan (Apr 13, 2022)

I have a tap wrench like Brent H shows. May have to make the other style once my new toy shows up.


----------



## Six O Two (Apr 13, 2022)

On the same subject, I always thought these tap drivers would be fun and easy project.


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 14, 2022)

I made a thing today.....






Based on the info @Dusty posted.....









						Suggestions on a MT3 taper tailstock threading die holder?
					

Way to go Bill!!!  Happy to hear you are back in action!!




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


----------



## PaulL (Apr 14, 2022)

That shoulder will make it easier to set up.  I'll try that on my next one.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

plalonde said:


> That shoulder will make it easier to set up.  I'll try that on my next one.



One of the ones I bought a while back has that flat shoulder on it. I posted a photo earlier. I'll be honest and say that I prefer to let the follower spin if it wants to and I don't really like the idea of a grub screw riding back and forth on the flat either, and therefore I prefer a threaded cap.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

plalonde said:


> That shoulder will make it easier to set up.  I'll try that on my next one.



Another alternative would be to cut a groove instead of a flat and then put a nose on the grub screw to follow the groove. 

Nice job for those lucky sods among us who have a shaper.......


----------



## DPittman (Apr 15, 2022)

My commercially made tap guide left lots to be desired... very loose fiting plunger rod and would not work with my smallest taps as it had no center on those little taps that only had a male centre.

So here is what I made a while back.  
I think V2 would be smaller but similar design.


----------



## PaulL (Apr 15, 2022)

DPittman said:


> My commercially made tap guide left lots to be desired... very loose fiting plunger rod and would not work with my smallest taps as it had no center on those little taps that only had a male centre.
> 
> So here is what I made a while back.
> I think V2 would be smaller but similar design.


I like the plug screw instead of a cap!  What does the knurled section do for you? I mean, I'm all in favour of racing stripes...


----------



## DPittman (Apr 15, 2022)

plalonde said:


> What does the knurled section do for you?


Absolutely nothing.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

I think the knurling is cool. My commercial one has the knurling too. But the fit is horrible. It wobbles around way too much. As I said earlier, it has a point on one end and a recess on the other. I'd like to make a copy but improve it with a better fit, longer stroke and adjustable compression. I'd also make several different sizes.

If you look at the one with the milled flat, you can see the damage the grub screw does - it has NEVER been tightened. But that's what happens when it slides against a loose retainer.


----------



## Dusty (Apr 15, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I made a thing today.....
> 
> View attachment 23059
> 
> ...



Hey Craig well done, what size spring did you use or is it which one will you settle with? Did you enjoy doing the project? How will you harden the pointy end?

Dusty's not just another pretty face you know. LOL


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Dusty said:


> How will you harden the pointy end?



This is another good point! Mine is not hardened and has already worn a bit. 

Not sure it really matters though. It's easy to recut the two ends.

Saying that makes me realize my first order of business ought to be to make a replacement follower for the existing body that isn't so sloppy. 

About the knurl - it's nice to hold onto the body of the follower while you put it into the chuck or whatever you plan to use it in. Much better than holding oily polished steel.


----------



## Dusty (Apr 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I think the knurling is cool. My commercial one has the knurling too. But the fit is horrible. It wobbles around way too much. As I said earlier, it has a point on one end and a recess on the other. I'd like to make a copy but improve it with a better fit, longer stroke and adjustable compression. I'd also make several different sizes.
> 
> If you look at the one with the milled flat, you can see the damage the grub screw does - it has NEVER been tightened. But that's what happens when it slides against a loose retainer.
> View attachment 23078



@Susquatch, that's odd grub screw damage really shouldn't gouge up the milled flat after the part has been hardened?

I have a similar mini tap guide manufactured by Fisher in Hawthorne, California, used it over a number of years mostly with smaller taps and it's a tight smooth fit, spot on every time.

KBC Tools & Machinery carry them part number 1-811-130 for $26.85, Just saying!


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 15, 2022)

Dusty said:


> Hey Craig well done, what size spring did you use or is it which one will you settle with? Did you enjoy doing the project? How will you harden the pointy end?
> 
> Dusty's not just another pretty face you know. LOL



Was a simple/fun project.  Involved some turning, boring, milling, drilling, tapping.

I haven't hardened the point but I suppose I could try using a map gas torch.

As for the spring....






PA sells an assortment spring kit.  I just used something that fit the follower body.

Craig


----------



## Dusty (Apr 15, 2022)

Craig said, 'PA sells an assortment spring kit. I just used something that fit the follower body.'

Thanks Craig, need to check them out next time I'm in their store (Regna).


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Dusty said:


> that's odd grub screw damage really shouldn't gouge up the milled flat after the part has been hardened?



Hardened? Did I say it was hardened? Mine is just a cheap Amazon follower. I seriously doubt it is hardened. 

I like the idea of milling or broaching a groove in it with a nose on the grub screw to fit the groove.


----------

