# Best gas for mig Welding sheet metal?



## Susquatch (Nov 18, 2021)

Horrible welder here. My very best is probably way worse than your very worst. But sometimes I need to try. 

I'm trying to repair a UTV. The gussets are just bent sheet metal that are torn. 

I've always used shielded wire. But that isn't working on this job. It's just blowing through no matter what I do. I think I need a TIG welder or try to use some 025 solid core wire with shielding gas. Another new welder was vetoed by the CFO. Something silly like you don't even know how to use the stuff you have properly, you don't need another one to add to the confusion. So gas and solid wire it's gunna have to be. 

Problem is that I dont know where to begin. 

What gas is best (100% CO2 or 75/25 CO2/Argon?

My EasyMig 180 welder came with a pressure gauge and fittings. But will I need any special adapters or a flow gauge? Any and all advice is appreciated.


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2021)

75/25 for sure.


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## Susquatch (Nov 18, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> 75/25 for sure.



OK, I'll get a small tank ordered. 

Will I need adapters or a flow gauge? Or will the fittings and Regulator that came with my Easy Mig work fine as is?


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2021)

It should all connect up just fine. 
It would be worth your time to get some stock of similar thickness and test various wire speeds and voltages to find what is going to work best.


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## 140mower (Nov 18, 2021)

I run the mix gas on mine. Your regulator setup will work fine, it's what I use, but I believe a flow gage would less wasteful, as I error the the heavy side with the gas. Once you go to gas, I doubt that you will go back to the flux core very often unless outside in the wind. The shielding gas doesn't do well in wind so indoors or calm days are best. Run short beads to keep heat buildup to a minimum, and practice on some scrap of equivalent size to get a good feel for it. Purposely try and see how much it takes to burn through and then adjust settings etc.


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## 140mower (Nov 18, 2021)

... also, try and set your test pieces up in the same angle etc that your workpiece will be in, because there's a world of difference between a piece laying flat on the table and you laying flat on your back trying to gain access with the gun. 
 And metal prep is important to insure good clean penetration... And, above all, enjoy your project and all the ones that this opens the door to.


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## Susquatch (Nov 18, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> It should all connect up just fine.
> It would be worth your time to get some stock of similar thickness and test various wire speeds and voltages to find what is going to work best.





140mower said:


> practice on some scrap of equivalent size to get a good feel for it. Purposely try and see how much it takes to burn through and then adjust settings etc.



You guys are giving me way to much credit. Practice isn't gunna do anything for me except delay the onslaught of disappointment. I do ok with heavy farm equipment, but even that isn't pretty.

Try and find when it blows through? Ya, that happens the moment I strike an arc.

At my age, the biggest challenges are my eyesight, my arthritis, and the shaking in my hands. 

But I will try, and yes - I will have fun regardless!


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2021)

You will need small diameter wire, dial down the voltage and wire speed. 
Despite MIG being sometime seen as the hot glue gun of welding it takes practice to get it right.


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## John Conroy (Nov 18, 2021)

On thin sheet metal I usually "stitch weld" to avoid burn through but still get good penetration. Roughly 1 second on time and 2 second off time  but do test welds to verify what works without burn through. Some of the new welders have auto settings for this but I make due with the manual old school method.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 18, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Horrible welder here. My very best is probably way worse than your very worst. But sometimes I need to try.
> 
> I'm trying to repair a UTV. The gussets are just bent sheet metal that are torn.
> 
> ...


The 180 is a great machine for sheet metal. It's a little deceiving because it looks like the settings are detents, but in fact they are continuously adjustable, which is what you want. The ability to fine tune voltage and wire speed is critical. The inside of the machine will have a chart which is usually darn close to what you will find works well. You will see a huge improvement when you go to gas (75/25 is a great choice for steel as @David_R8 says).  It's important to match the settings to the gauge you are using, but your machine can do down to 24 gauge.

Flux coated wire like you have been using, or stick for that matter, is a pain to do sheet metal with. The main reason is that the welding pool gets hidden by the flux, so by the time you realize you are about to blow through, it's too late. If you've ever tried welding sheet metal with stick and a buzzbox, you know what I mean. If you think you are a bad weldor, and all you ever do is flux core on thin gauge metal, there's your problem.

MIG is only a mystery until someone spends an hour with you showing you how to do it right...especially with sheet metal. If you were closer I'd say buy a couple coffees, come over to my shop and I'll guarantee you leave with confidence in an hour. It really makes a world of difference with sheet metal if someone shows you the tricks. If you can find someone close to you who can show you how, your problems will be solved. You don't need TIG for sheet metal; you just need the right settings and a lesson—like all of us do. Most auto body shops don't use TIG for panels; they use MIG, and that says a lot. Your machine can work fine, with a few operator tricks.

The biggest mistakes with sheet metal welding are gap and heat. _Flux core is way harder to do on thin metal._ But with gas you should easily be able to weld down to 20 gauge (thinner with practice). Gap has to be tight between metal in order to bridge it quickly. If it is too large, by the time you develop enough puddle to bridge the gap, you've blown through the metal. This occurs in fractions of a second. You can buy sheet metal devices cheaply to aid in the issue (https://www.princessauto.com/en/4-pc-butt-welding-clamp-set/product/PA0008393878) but they aren't necessary. And as David says, thin wire is best. When I do 24 gauge, I swap out rollers and use .023 wire in my big machine. But you should be able to do 20 or even 22 gauge with .035 after some practice.

As you probably know, stitch weld only, until the gaps are well spaced and filled. When they teach on sheet metal they teach to tack weld small dots only. Then, as you get a feel for how much heat is too much, you lengthen the tacks. Soon you learn how long a weld you can do before the heat can't escape and it blows through. On 20 gauge it's about 3/8". The ends of the pieces being welded are the toughest because the heat has nowhere to go, and it blows through. Smaller tacks, or using a heatsink helps. If the speed thing frustrates you, keep a wet cloth nearby and cool the weld down immediately. That will speed up the project and help prevent warping. BTW if the speed thing does annoy you, don't ever buy a TIG because it is even slower.

One last tip—if you are using magnets to hold your pieces together (as many people do), stop doing this. In thin sheet it plays havoc when welding within close range. Either rig something different, or use the clamp set I referenced above. You will see a difference.

If you are still frustrated after converting to gas, post some pics of your project/coupons and I'm sure we can walk you through set up and welding online. Lots of great videos on YouTube, but if you can't find one that is a close match to your problem, I'm happy to replicate it as best as I can in my shop and do a video for you.


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## Susquatch (Nov 18, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> You will need small diameter wire, dial down the voltage and wire speed.
> Despite MIG being sometime seen as the hot glue gun of welding it takes practice to get it right.



Bought some gas and some 025 wire this afternoon. Gunna give it another shot tomorrow.... Thanks David! 

Don't forget what I said earlier. I'll probably get worse from age faster than I can ever get better with practice........ LOL! 


John Conroy said:


> On thin sheet metal I usually "stitch weld" to avoid burn through but still get good penetration. Roughly 1 second on time and 2 second off time  but do test welds to verify what works without burn through. Some of the new welders have auto settings for this but I make due with the manual old school method.



This is a great suggestion that I've never heard before. I like it cuz it makes sense! 

Thanks John!


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## Susquatch (Nov 18, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> The 180 is a great machine for sheet metal. It's a little deceiving because it looks like the settings are detents, but in fact they are continuously adjustable, which is what you want. The ability to fine tune voltage and wire speed is critical. The inside of the machine will have a chart which is usually darn close to what you will find works well. You will see a huge improvement when you go to gas (75/25 is a great choice for steel as @David_R8 says). It's important to match the settings to the gauge you are using, but your machine can do down to 24 gauge.



Wow! Someone else who writes as much as I do! 

Sounds to me like you LOVE welding!  Maybe I will too someday! 

If only I did live closer to all you western guys. That would be sooooo cool! 

OK, so I bought some 75/25 gas and some 025 S-6 mig wire this afternoon.  Gunna give it another try tomorrow. Lots of great suggestions. 

I didn't know that the dials were continuous! After looking at it just now, the feed rate even feels continuous, but the voltage has detents and won't go below A. I'll have to see if I can measure it to confirm that it actually is continuous. But regardless, I had everything on the lowest settings so I don't think that will help. But gas might! It would be great to go to 24gauge, but I'll be happy at 16.



CalgaryPT said:


> Flux coated wire like you have been using, or stick for that matter, is a pain to do sheet metal with. The main reason is that the welding pool gets hidden by the flux, so by the time you realize you are about to blow through, it's too late. If you've ever tried welding sheet metal with stick and a buzzbox, you know what I mean. If you think you are a bad weldor, and all you ever do is flux core on thin gauge metal, there's your problem.



I don't think hiding the weld pool will matter much for me. I can't see anyway. 

I've done lots of stick Welding and flux core mig on heavy metal. I've even done aluminium in the past. But I've never ever laid a bead I could be proud of. 



CalgaryPT said:


> MIG is only a mystery until someone spends an hour with you showing you how to do it right...especially with sheet metal. If you were closer I'd say buy a couple coffees, come over to my shop and I'll guarantee you leave with confidence in an hour. It really makes a world of difference with sheet metal if someone shows you the tricks. If you can find someone close to you who can show you how, your problems will be solved. You don't need TIG for sheet metal; you just need the right settings and a lesson—like all of us do. Most auto body shops don't use TIG for panels; they use MIG, and that says a lot. Your machine can work



So, a body shop guy toward Windsor fixed my wife's jeep recently. In casual conversation, he offered to help me get started with mig. I plan to take him up on that. 


CalgaryPT said:


> The biggest mistakes with sheet metal welding are gap and heat. _Flux core is way harder to do on thin metal._ But with gas you should easily be able to weld down to 20 gauge (thinner with practice). Gap has to be tight between metal in order to bridge it quickly. If it is too large, by the time you develop enough puddle to bridge the gap, you've blown through the metal. This occurs in fractions of a second. You can buy sheet metal devices cheaply to aid in the issue (https://www.princessauto.com/en/4-pc-butt-welding-clamp-set/product/PA0008393878) but they aren't necessary. And as David says, thin wire is best. When I do 24 gauge, I swap out rollers and use .023 wire in my big machine. But you should be able to do 20 or even 22 gauge with .035 after some practice.



Those PA Clamps look like they are designed to create a gap. Are they supposed to yield a gap? What if I am overlapping? 



CalgaryPT said:


> As you probably know, stitch weld only, until the gaps are well spaced and filled. When they teach on sheet metal they teach to tack weld small dots only. Then, as you get a feel for how much heat is too much, you lengthen the tacks. Soon you learn how long a weld you can do before the heat can't escape and it blows through. On 20 gauge it's about 3/8". The ends of the pieces being welded are the toughest because the heat has nowhere to go, and it blows through. Smaller tacks, or using a heatsink helps. If the speed thing frustrates you, keep a wet cloth nearby and cool the weld down immediately. That will speed up the project and help prevent warping. BTW if the speed thing does annoy you, don't ever buy a TIG because it is even slower



Actually, I'd never heard about stitch Welding until John mentioned it. Sounds like a good idea. I think I get the idea. It shouldn't be hard to add heatsink. 

FWIW, I'm not worried about speed. My only deadline anymore now is at the cemetery. 



CalgaryPT said:


> One last tip—if you are using magnets to hold your pieces together (as many people do), stop doing this. In thin sheet it plays havoc when welding within close range. Either rig something different, or use the clamp set I referenced above. You will see a difference.



I was thinking I would put in a few pop rivets to hold things together until I can get enough weld on. 



CalgaryPT said:


> If you are still frustrated after converting to gas, post some pics of your project/coupons and I'm sure we can walk you through set up and welding online. Lots of great videos on YouTube, but if you can't find one that is a close match to your problem, I'm happy to replicate it as best as I can in my shop and do a video for you.



That would be appreciated. Let's see where I get to first. 

Turns out my granddaughter has come to the farm for a vacation. So it might be a bit before I can evaluate all this. 

Some questions :

What kind of gas pressure is appropriate for a mig 180 at minimum settings? And does the gas pressure need to be changed for different speed/voltage settings?


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## Six O Two (Nov 18, 2021)

There's a youtube channel called 'Fitzee's Fabrications', he's a custom car guy in Newfoundland. It's a lovely channel really, with good tips on autobody restoration mostly. He recently did a video called "Welding sheet metal. Shielding gas or flux core??". IIRC, it covers a lot of your questions.


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## DPittman (Nov 18, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> My only deadline anymore now is at the cemetery


And don't worry about that "dead" line,  they will wait! 

I've never seen anyone yet miss that one, but many that seemed to have made it too early.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 18, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I didn't know that the dials were continuous! After looking at it just now, the feed rate even feels continuous, but the voltage has detents and won't go below A. I'll have to see if I can measure it to confirm that it actually is continuous. But regardless, I had everything on the lowest settings so I don't think that will help. But gas might! It would be great to go to 24gauge, but I'll be happy at 16.


Perhaps I am wrong about that if it is a newer model Donyboy73 did a nice review of it. On his there are no detents, and I have used that model as well. Maybe his is new and the C stands for continuous? Either you can work around the detents with a little more stickout. 






Susquatch said:


> I don't think hiding the weld pool will matter much for me. I can't see anyway. *Bet you a coffee you're wrong.*
> 
> I've done lots of stick Welding and flux core mig on heavy metal. I've even done aluminium in the past. But I've never ever laid a bead I could be proud of. *Yeah, that's your issue. Sheet metal is way different than welding plate. And again it really sounds like you just need a decent lesson to get a bead you are proud of. I shake too, and my eyesight sucks. Do you use a auto darkening helmet? That's another big help.*
> 
> ...





Susquatch said:


> Actually, I'd never heard about stitch Welding until John mentioned it. Sounds like a good idea. I think I get the idea. It shouldn't be hard to add heatsink.* A cheap flat of copper works great. You must stitch with sheet metal.*
> 
> 
> I was thinking I would put in a few pop rivets to hold things together until I can get enough weld on. *Too much work. But if you go that route use Clecos (temporary rivets):
> ...


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 18, 2021)

One last thing I'll add, then I will shut up. Just because you've mentioned how bad your welds are...there is something you should check with your welder. Look in your manual for the correct polarity for flux vs MIG. Flux core wire uses DCEN (negative polarity). MIG uses DCEP (positive polarity). On your machine you swap the lugs the short thick wire inside is connected to. If you have the wire on the wrong lug, the polarity is reversed and your welding will suck no matter how much you practice. Double check this because you wouldn't be the first guy this has happened to and took years to figure it out. If it is on the correct lug for flux now, you'll have to change it over for gas anyways, so it's good to learn.


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## Susquatch (Nov 19, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> One last thing I'll add, then I will shut up. Just because you've mentioned how bad your welds are...there is something you should check with your welder. Look in your manual for the correct polarity for flux vs MIG. Flux core wire uses DCEN (negative polarity). MIG uses DCEP (positive polarity). On your machine you swap the lugs the short thick wire inside is connected to. If you have the wire on the wrong lug, the polarity is reversed and your welding will suck no matter how much you practice. Double check this because you wouldn't be the first guy this has happened to and took years to figure it out. If it is on the correct lug for flux now, you'll have to change it over for gas anyways, so it's good to learn.
> 
> 
> View attachment 18373
> ...



Yes, I did know about the polarity and it is set correctly. 

Funny, cuz that's what the guy at the gas supply place said too. 

Please don't shut up. Every time you open your mouth I learn something!


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## Susquatch (Nov 19, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> Perhaps I am wrong about that if it is a newer model Donyboy73 did a nice review of it. On his there are no detents, and I have used that model as well. Maybe his is new and the C stands for continuous? Either you can work around the detents with a little more stickout.



Nice welds in that video. And he claims to be a newbie! I'm cooked. 

Ya, both his dials are continuous dials. Only my feed is continuous. My voltage has detents.

Do you have any idea what the voltages are and what the waveform looks like? I'd hate to destroy a good multimeter testing it.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Do you have any idea what the voltages are and what the waveform looks like? I'd hate to destroy a good multimeter testing it.







There's a post on Welding Design & Fabrication that touches on Inverter MIG waveform (for short circuit at least, not spray). It might be what you are asking?  https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/681151-Lincoln-Mig-Pack-180-HD-Not-Getting-Hot/page2


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## Degen (Dec 29, 2021)

I am not a trained welder, however I have have seen a few videos on using flux core and spot welding (sort of, more of lots of little tacks) sheet metal (yes I've done it to repair a rust hole on a 96 Dodge Caravan).  To make matters easier there is a wire jig you can bend up to keep distance ideal, though I never used it because I found it after I did the work. The biggest issue the initial heat And weld is good, moments later it too hot and burns through.  Pulse, move pulse, repeat in different locations till the entire weld seam is done, slow and mind numbing.

Recently I got rid of my MIG and got a TIG/stick machine (haven't tried Stick yet, but TIG rocks).


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## Degen (Jan 8, 2022)

Don't worry about gas, this applies where you use either a CO@/Argon Mix (if you already have it) or FLUX Core (or both in wind days).

Watch this video.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 13, 2022)

@CalgaryPT - the "C" at the end of the 180 for the Lincoln welders distinguishes between the retail store welders and the commercial units; the 180C is about triple the price IIRC and features machined aluminum drive components rather than the plastic ones.  I had a sponsorship deal with Lincoln so I've had a variety of welding machines through them yet I still own/use my OG 220v Mig 180 from ~2006 the most.  Just an FYI because you mentioned you weren't sure what the "C" was for.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 13, 2022)

@Susquatch - welding is something where I can help others - I don't see any issues w/ any of the advice given and if you want some place to sit and work on a project and ask questions, you're free to do that in my shop.  My buddy is just finishing off his ice racer after building himself a cage w/ my supervision/guidance.


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## Darren (Jan 13, 2022)

I use 75/25 for most of my mig operations on steel, which is all of my mig operations. It takes practice, bottom line. setup small coupons, weld them, find out what works and what doesn't.  Set the heat too high, burn a hole, leave the heat there and trigger it till it works.  (sheetmetal only), set it low...etc....practice.

Thats for the bench. In practical use, When you're under a car, you will adapt, trust me, even if you know better, as long as its close. Apply the same to the bench. Once you know your machine, you'll know how to set it or adapt to it, or if its just wrong. When you know, you know..

Working in the field (stick welding mind you, but it applies), sometimes your welder might be 500' away. You may not want to be too picky about your settings. At that point, you adjust to the settings, or do a lot of walking (or walking papers).


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 14, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> @CalgaryPT - the "C" at the end of the 180 for the Lincoln welders distinguishes between the retail store welders and the commercial units; the 180C is about triple the price IIRC and features machined aluminum drive components rather than the plastic ones.  I had a sponsorship deal with Lincoln so I've had a variety of welding machines through them yet I still own/use my OG 220v Mig 180 from ~2006 the most.  Just an FYI because you mentioned you weren't sure what the "C" was for.


Thanks. I've owned reds as well as blue. I like them both. Nice machines.


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## Tecnico (Jan 15, 2022)

@Susquatch you mentioned that your ability to see the weld might be a factor, one thing I don't think I saw you mention was your welding helmet. For years I welded race cars and all kinds of other things with a stick welder and old school drop down helmet.  It was only after I bought my Lincoln 180C (C for continuously adjustable voltage, Lincoln's description) that I broke down and bought an auto-darkening helmet.

For me it made a big difference because not only could I see to get set up where I wanted to weld, I could also focus on the spot without taking my eyes off it to nod the helmet. I bought an ArcOne helmet with a big 5 x 4 window which helps when you need to align your sight line with progressive lenses, that for those of us that have crossed the presbyopia threshold.  I found the field of view made a big difference compared to peering out through the mail slot of the old school nod & drop helmets.

My helmet also lets you adjust the darkening to suit what you’re welding, thin/thick steel/aluminum/TIG etc. without having to worry about UV because the lens materials absorb that, not the darkening element. Adjust the darkness to give yourself the best viewing.

This may all be old news to you but it helped me make better use of my welders.

D


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

The continuously adjustable voltage feature makes sense for the "C" - I wasn't aware of that feature, but did know that welder was a commercial model and not a retail model.

Do the progressive lenses work similar to having a cheater/magnifying lens inside of your mask?  @Tecnico


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## Tecnico (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> Do the progressive lenses work similar to having a cheater/magnifying lens inside of your mask?  @Tecnico



That makes sense, I've never actually seen the cheater lenses but I have seen it mentioned.  

My glasses have the progressive magnification gradient so the further down the lens I look, the closer the focal point is so it sounds like the effect is the same except it's continuously variable.   The bigger window really helps the field of view when you're looking through the lower point in the lens.  When I was using the letter slot lens I realized I was having trouble focusing because of the limited field of view so the big window was the answer once I understood that.

BTW I do like the 180C, I steered clear of the retail versions and picked mine up at Praxair.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

@Tecnico there was a 180C demo available in my area (maybe still?) for $700 that I really wanted to splurge on (replacing a 180 retail in my shop) but I'm hoping to step up to a 260 w/in a year... I just spent $500 USD to replace broken parts inside two of my three welders (all have been in service for a minimum of 8 years).  You have a great welder.

Is the ArcOne helmet one of the new generation auto-darkening helmets w/ the "true color" lens when the EDF cartridge activates (when the shield auto darkens)?
I was looking at one of these (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001332182131.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.37c73c008jrfYJ&mp=1) to steal the EDF cartridge from to upgrade my Viking 3350.

Sorry - OG topic was welding gas...


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## Tecnico (Jan 15, 2022)

Hopefully @Susquatch will find this close enough to topic.....



ThirtyOneDriver said:


> Is the ArcOne helmet one of the new generation auto-darkening helmets w/ the "true color" lens when the EDF cartridge activates (when the shield auto darkens)?
> I was looking at one of these (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001332182131.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.37c73c008jrfYJ&mp=1) to steal the EDF cartridge from to upgrade my Viking 3350.


My helmet is about 10 years old (wow, already!) so it doesn't have the latest & greatest so I can't comment on true color.  That said it does what I need it to do.

OK, you can get ArcOne filters by themselves to do retrofits (see the link) so they might have something for you. If it was me I'd weigh up ArcOne or someone like them that's North American based bricks & mortar vs. the unknown on AliEx and decide if they were a better deal all around. I'd be more confident that someone like ArcOne or Lincoln etc. would be responsive if I needed support and that they would design to/comply with the applicable ANSI etc. standards for safety.

D


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

@Tecnico - you have a good point about buying North American brick and mortar... from experience, those brick and mortars get their stuff in sea cans so I was trying to be sneaky and save some money - I have a bunch of helmets and was hoping to upgrade to the new (w/in the last year or so) auto-darkening technology w/o paying $594 for an entire replacement helmet (or ~$200 for the cartridge if I can coax a supplier to special order it).  The EDF cartridge is the auto-darkening component, everything else is just different forms of plastic (+ the headband).


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## Chicken lights (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> @Tecnico - you have a good point about buying North American brick and mortar... from experience, those brick and mortars get their stuff in sea cans so I was trying to be sneaky and save some money - I have a bunch of helmets and was hoping to upgrade to the new (w/in the last year or so) auto-darkening technology w/o paying $594 for an entire replacement helmet (or ~$200 for the cartridge if I can coax a supplier to special order it).  The EDF cartridge is the auto-darkening component, everything else is just different forms of plastic (+ the headband).


I paid less than $100 for my hood at crappy tire, when it was on sale. For the amount I do, it’s great


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

Thanks guys. It's all good info. Most of which I do know.

No, my problem is NOT that I need a better Helmut. I can't see - period. I've had surgery in one eye to correct what they thought was retinal degeneration and I am legally blind in the other eye. Once covid let's up, I am in line to have surgery in my bad eye. When you add in a welding helmut of any kind, things only get worse. I'm not complaining though. I'm still looking at the grass from the green side. It looks pretty darn good. Most of my problems are first world problems. I have no right to complain.

Welding is a challenge for me for many reasons. Eyesight is just one of them. But I will learn to weld. It will just take me a while to do it.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

I'm finding it more difficult to see @Susquatch and I'm not trying to work through near as many obstacles... again, my offer stands for welding experience in my shop... I've taught practical skills to students with difficulties in the past (I'm laughing w/ you, not at you) and try really hard to deliver ideas in different ways to gain understanding... I've instructed welding before... just don't take ANY machining advice from me, and I mean NONE - did you see how I had the center doo-hickey setup?


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## YYCHM (Jan 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Welding is a challenge for me for many reasons. Eyesight is just one of them. But I will learn to weld. It will just take me a while to do it.



This sounds like me LOL.....  My problem is that I can't see where I'm going and where I want to go and I have a auto darkening helmet.  Some suggestions I've had so far include: 1. put a chalk line on the intended track and 2. shine a strong light on the work piece.  Haven't tried either so far,  I can only weld outside in the summer in good weather and I just wasn't in the mood last summer.

I'll take a pic of the bird bath stand I made for the wife...  You'll laugh your a..s off, the welding is pathetic.


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

What changed my welding game was:
A) Metering my machine so I knew what voltage each setting put out. 
B) Measuring the actual wire put out at various places on the wire feed dial. 
C) Getting a decent auto dark helmet. 
D) Attaching an LED headlamp to the chin of the helmet.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> What changed my welding game was:
> A) Metering my machine so I knew what voltage each setting put out.
> B) Measuring the actual wire put out at various places on the wire feed dial.
> C) Getting a decent auto dark helmet.
> D) Attaching an LED headlamp to the chin of the helmet.



Please tell me more about your metering. I'd like to do that but have not been able to find enough reliable info on what the wave form is supposed to look like. I'm not anxious to destroy a good multimeter or an oscilloscope. So I'd like an idea of what it looks like first.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> I'm finding it more difficult to see @Susquatch and I'm not trying to work through near as many obstacles... again, my offer stands for welding experience in my shop... I've taught practical skills to students with difficulties in the past (I'm laughing w/ you, not at you) and try really hard to deliver ideas in different ways to gain understanding... I've instructed welding before... just don't take ANY machining advice from me, and I mean NONE - did you see how I had the center doo-hickey setup?



Sounds like a GREAT trade to me! I'll get you going on machining and you get me going on welding. I'm old but well used, learn fast, and am a good teacher.


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Please tell me more about your metering. I'd like to do that but have not been able to find enough reliable info on what the wave form is supposed to look like. I'm not anxious to destroy a good multimeter or an oscilloscope. So I'd like an idea of what it looks like first.


I just used my Fluke multimeter. I have a Millermatic 130 which has a four-position voltage selector. I was spending a fair amount of time on the Welding Tips and Tricks forum trying to absorb as much info as possible. When asking for help they want to know exact numbers for voltage and wire speed in inches per minute.
Ignore the clamp bit in the title because he doesn't use a clamp meter.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

That list @David_R8 is pretty good - I kind of balked at the first two things until I thought about it a little more.

(Layman explanation, there are numbers out there but I'm not going to look for them right now)
There's certain material transfer phases that MIG welding goes through - their changes happen at certain voltages (https://www.aedmotorsport.com/news/mig-welding-transfer-methods) - this could be very important to help someone... amperage/IPM can impact a bunch of things but is also impacted by the user's technique... so knowing the IPM would be a great way to understand what should be happening w/in a certain voltage range.

I'm sure the guys asking for help greatly assist those who are providing - at the school, we always compared number the first day - by the time test day (day 4) came around, we'd be welding like @dfloen - "it don't matter what it's set at, it's too far to reach, f' it" and as long as you were relatively close to the parameters technique would save you.

Ever see a welder perform a horizontal butt weld using 2 9" long 1/4" aluminum welding coupons w/ a machine capable of 87V fully maxed out on adjustments?  (likely 32v, >800IPM) weld?  It looks like God himself is shooting through the end of the nozzle and the whole 9" coupon is filled (including a 1/4" deep, 3/4" wide root through the far side) in one breath... about the same length of breath you would take before pulling the trigger while hunting.  Instructors said he couldn't be done - we all passed our visual, bend tests, and chemical aided inspections.  The numbers are great to make sure you're in the ballpark, once you know what you're doing they're just a guide/reference.


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> That list @David_R8 is pretty good - I kind of balked at the first two things until I thought about it a little more.
> 
> (Layman explanation, there are numbers out there but I'm not going to look for them right now)
> There's certain material transfer phases that MIG welding goes through - their changes happen at certain voltages (https://www.aedmotorsport.com/news/mig-welding-transfer-methods) - this could be very important to help someone... amperage/IPM can impact a bunch of things but is also impacted by the user's technique... so knowing the IPM would be a great way to understand what should be happening w/in a certain voltage range.
> ...


I totally agree that once you get some time under the hood the settings are more guidelines and technique is the name of the game in the end. That's when the art part of it comes into play IMHO.


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

At the end of the day, its really about developing technique and knowing your machine. I think the point I was trying to make before, was that sometimes technique has to take over, and that ideal machine settings can change during the course of a weld or job. 

As an auto mechanic, a lot of the welding has to be done where you can't see the weld. Exhaust, for example. Welding the top of pipe joints. Sometimes i use a mirror, sometimes i just listen.  Building out exhaust studs in cylinder heads for extraction, lots of times you gotta aim the gun where you cant really see. 

Sheet metal is more foregiving in way, as strength really isn't the concern. Not like structural steel anyway. Figure out what works and just as importantly, what doesn't. In structural welding, you really don't want to find out what doesn't work.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> I just used my Fluke multimeter. I have a Millermatic 130 which has a four-position voltage selector. I was spending a fair amount of time on the Welding Tips and Tricks forum trying to absorb as much info as possible. When asking for help they want to know exact numbers for voltage and wire speed in inches per minute.
> Ignore the clamp bit in the title because he doesn't use a clamp meter.



I see. So there are no crazy high voltage spikes despite the arc. That just seems odd to me. I'll try it with a cheap Chinese meter I have first. Then maybe I'll use my fluke or a scope.


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I see. So there are no crazy high voltage spikes despite the arc. That just seems odd to me. I'll try it with a cheap Chinese meter I have first. Then maybe I'll use my fluke or a scope.


If I recall correctly the voltage was steady so long as I held the gun at a consistent distance from the work.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> If I recall correctly the voltage was steady so long as I held the gun at a consistent distance from the work.



That makes sense, because current is flowing through the arc at that point. But how do you adjust and measure voltage before you start the arc?


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That makes sense, because current is flowing through the arc at that point. But how do you adjust and measure voltage before you start the arc?


My machine only has four settings which are for different metal thicknesses. I needed to know what voltages they put out. I just hooked up the meter and welded a few inches while watching the meter. I noted the voltage range then went to the next setting and did it again till I had the voltage range for each setting.


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

Open circuit voltage - OCV, its just another indicator of how your machine is set.


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> This sounds like me LOL.....  My problem is that I can't see where I'm going and where I want to go and I have a auto darkening helmet.  Some suggestions I've had so far include: 1. put a chalk line on the intended track and 2. shine a strong light on the work piece.  Haven't tried either so far,  I can only weld outside in the summer in good weather and I just wasn't in the mood last summer.
> 
> I'll take a pic of the bird bath stand I made for the wife...  You'll laugh your a..s off, the welding is pathetic.



I have no idea how a light is supposed to help when you already have a high current arc going on. A white chalk line might help but I'd be worried that it would contaminate the weld. Ya, I know.... I worry too much! 

I have some "bird baths" of my own here. I don't tell anybody that I did that.......


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> My machine only has four settings which are for different metal thicknesses. I needed to know what voltages they put out. I just hooked up the meter and welded a few inches while watching the meter. I noted the voltage range then went to the next setting and did it again till I had the voltage range for each setting.



We posted at the same time. You were measuring closed circuit voltage then, which is a good indicator of how the machine is performing based on how you weld. Stickout, etc plays a factor


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Open circuit voltage - OCV, its just another indicator of how your machine is set.



So what are the typical OCVs and what happens to that voltage as the arc starts to cut in and out?


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## David_R8 (Jan 15, 2022)

dfloen said:


> We posted at the same time. You were measuring closed circuit voltage then, which is a good indicator of how the machine is performing based on how you weld. Stickout, etc plays a factor


Yes I forgot to mention stickout and its affect on voltage.


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

I usually use a speedglass helmet for most of my work. I'm always amazed at how well i can see once i install a new lense protector


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## Tecnico (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> (Layman explanation, there are numbers out there but I'm not going to look for them right now)
> There's certain material transfer phases that MIG welding goes through - their changes happen at certain voltages (https://www.aedmotorsport.com/news/mig-welding-transfer-methods) - this could be very important to help someone... amperage/IPM can impact a bunch of things but is also impacted by the user's technique... so knowing the IPM would be a great way to understand what should be happening w/in a certain voltage range.


Good discussion going on here, I'm learning things.  Great videos showing the transfer method in that link complete with setup parameters.

I think the chart you're referring to is this:




I bumped into it on a welding forum. 

I wonder if the machines that have set detents (vs CV) have rotary switches with discrete connection or if they're potentiometers with a mechanical detent....

I think I know what the short circuit transfer method "feels" & looks like, it's familiar from doing thin/sheet metal work.  At times I can feel the electrode contacting the work piece. 

I'm going to have to try some of the settings from the videos to replicate the globular and spray modes.  I've probably worked that way but not by intentional setup. Interesting that after all this time seeing reference to the various modes this is the first I've actually seen it spelled out and with specific setup parameters.  Thanks @ThirtyOneDriver for the link.

Following some of the discussion in this thread, I see that we have a common challenge seeing & following the intended bead path, for me it's the illumination contrast between the weld arc & the work piece, especially in lighter material/sheet metal. I try and plan ahead what path I'm going to take and try to follow it.  That can be difficult when it's an irregular shape or going around corners on tubing etc.

Always learning!

D


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> So what are the typical OCVs and what happens to that voltage as the arc starts to cut in and out?



its been a few years since i worked with a machine where OCV was actually a factor, and ive never measured it on my own machines. Some welders are constant voltage/constant current, but thats usually above hobbyist grade, last time i looked.

It really doesn't matter. If we are talking MIG, my early 90's Lincoln sp170 has 5 heat settings, and infinite wire speed.  a combo of both always works within the machines limitations.


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## Darren (Jan 15, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I'm going to have to try some of the settings from the videos to replicate the globular and spray modes.



for spray transfer, you need a mix of 80% argon, and usually a 200+ amp mig. Its a thing of beauty for sure.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

Spray transfer is awesome, but ~ 12 months of welding training across stick, MIG, and TIG, there was only the one opportunity that it was feasible.  Our welding program reflected the work we were likely to need to perform, so a lot of steel 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1" one mock-up crack repair in 3" armour, aluminum was 1/4" or 2" (double bevel, vertical up... this weld created blisters on the back of everyone's hands despite multiple layers of gloves and heat shields).  We also did some stainless and other stuff, and I received other certifications (4130 tubing) from other schools for more specific reasons.

In practice (20 years of welding but not everyday) I've never had the opportunity to get into spray and rarely have worked on things that I could get/want globular spray transfer - keep in mind that you need to be pushing >24 or 24.5 volts and Constant Voltage to reach either of these methods... I'm not sure how many of the machines I've used were even capable... until this thread, I didn't know it needed to be a CV machine... and assumed that the machines that were portable enough to take to the job just didn't have the power to get there.

@Tecnico - that wasn't the chart I was thinking of, but after seeing it I'm kicking myself for not buying the 180C in the area for $700... I can weld 0.095" wall tubing on the retail 180s w/ both knobs maxed out (0.023" wire) so I'm making an educated guess that it's not capable of hitting 25v or 500 ipm... actually, the voltage knob doesn't go past "E" which on the 180C chart reads 19.7v ... that seems about right for what the retail 180 puts out.  BTW, I didn't know that welding could be performed at 10v (setting "A")... it's kind of wild to see that low of a number on a chart like that.


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## Susquatch (Jan 16, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I think the chart you're referring to is this:



Wow. That's great info. 

My wire welder just happens to be a Lincoln 180.  But I doubt it's a 180C. The inside panel says 180T.

The feed dial is continuous but does not start at zero. The control dial has detents but I don't know if it is a reostat with detents or a rotary switch. I might take a peek under the cover later today if it's easy to do. 

The drive wheels are metal not plastic. 

Here is a photo of the settings chart. 






I have welded with it but it ain't pretty. My welds look like the Rocky Mountains not beads. I blow through sheet metal like it was saran wrap and thin stock like it was tin foil. I do ok on thick plate but it ain't pretty. The grinding wheel on my hand grinder gets lots of exercise. 

I can stick weld half decent but again only on thicker plate and it ain't pretty. To be truthful, I do a better job with old style oxy-acetylene gas. 

Back in the day, we had a mechanic who could weld aluminium tin foil and lay a bead on plate as smooth as spreading caulking with an electric gun. Nobody else welded because it was always..... shall we say embarrassing..... (that's the polite word for it). Today, I have a built in fear of welding. 

But several people have volunteered to help get me going. I doubt it's a knowledge thing for me but I don't know what I don't know so who knows.... Prolly more of a hands on experiencial learning thing. I guess we will see. I am motivated and willing to try.


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## Hacker (Jan 16, 2022)

Some great info and insight on this thread. Thanks for the discourse. My motto when it comes to my welding is "Grinding and paint can hide a lot of ugly".


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## DPittman (Jan 16, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Some great info and insight on this thread. Thanks for the discourse. My motto when it comes to my welding is "Grinding and paint can hide a lot of ugly".


I saw some post " A grinder and paint makes me the welder I aint".


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

@Susquatch - the main visual difference from the 180C to the retail 180s was the billet aluminum drive *system* (pictures) - MOST 180 retail welders have some sort of composite components (drive wheels are still steel)... my retail 180s have more plastic than the model I took the image from.


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## Tecnico (Jan 16, 2022)

All this discussion on the 180 family makes me thankful I cracked the wallet until it hurt and bought the "C" model!

@Hacker speaks the truth....


Hacker said:


> My motto when it comes to my welding is "Grinding and paint can hide a lot of ugly".



@dfloen, I have argon (100%) and Ar75/CO2-25, which aren't 80% argon, are they both out of the question to play with spray transfer?

D


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

100% argon should allow you to do it if the machine is capable - you have the 180C... set it up past 26V, look up an IPM that should go w/ that voltage for that machine/wire and have at'er.  Weld on something thicker than 1/8".  I've never tried w/ anything smaller than 0.035" steel or .040" aluminum wire.


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## Brent H (Jan 16, 2022)

For aluminum I use my spool gun with 0.035 wire running 135+ amps 100% argon with a Everlast Power MTS 211Si and it does a great job - starts spraying about 125 Amps and then adjust to get a nice consistent penetration and bead.  the welder lets you switch up between wire speed and voltage to letting it manage itself and you just adjust the amperage as a total  factor.  It has worked very well for me - push the puddle instead of pulling


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

@Brent H - I'm making an assumption that you use your spool gun for aluminum but want to check first... that's correct, aluminum spools?

I have a surplus of aluminum spools for spool guns and no longer own a machine that runs them (I still have a spool gun for the Mig 180 but sold a welder w/ the card, etc. still in it... if anyone needs a LE spool gun...)   I think most of the spools are 5356? 5653? and I'm 100% guessing that they're likely 0.035" - I haven't touched them in the past year and the last 5 or 6 years the only times that I have handled them were to move/organize the shop.


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## Brent H (Jan 16, 2022)

@ThirtyOneDriver : yep, the spool gun is just for the Aluminum.  The TIG function on the machine has no AC wave form so it was easier to just e-bay a spool gun, convert it to work on the machine and go from there.  Works best on thicker AL.  I would not want to be welding thinner than 1/8" for sure. and probably no thicker than 3/8" but, I have not tried 0.40 or 0.45 and really jacked the amps. 

 If you have a surplus of spools  I would be interested in lightening up your shop space.  I do not do a whole lot of aluminum but who knows what the future brings - LOL  The gun runs the 2lb spools.  At school we pretty much used the spool guns for welding ships components together and making superstructure repairs to the small boats.  Now, that was 30+ years ago and I am sure things might be changed?  I know the guys at the base have Mig Aluminum but they are using special set ups.


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## Susquatch (Jan 16, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> @Susquatch - the main visual difference from the 180C to the retail 180s was the billet aluminum drive *system* (pictures) - MOST 180 retail welders have some sort of composite components (drive wheels are still steel)... my retail 180s have more plastic than the model I took the image from.
> 
> View attachment 19850View attachment 19851



Mine is less than both of those. On first blush, mine appears to be a molded composite part. 

I will never use it enough to realize a difference. In the time that I have owned it I've only used two spools of wire. I may use more if I ever get any good at it. But it will never be a full time tool.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

I'm not sure what the ship builders are using these days; I did get to work w/ someone who had been a ship builder and was surprised by his descriptions of plunge cutting aluminum plates w/ guard less skill saws and the sort.

Push-pull machines have been the standard to strive for on the base (my welding school is on the base closest to you) for aluminum MIG... I'm pretty confident that where we were rebuilding the old aluminum hulled armoured personnel carriers were using push-pull systems as well.  Looking through catalogues, there is a market for aluminum welders intended for body shops now... again, I didn't see spool guns but what looks like push-pull MIG systems - MSRP around $10k for red and blue ones.

If you're ever in the area... I may need to make a visit to Bradford (possibly Gravenhurst) in the coming weeks so who knows, maybe they'll end up on your door step.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 16, 2022)

I have one from 2006 that's setup like your @Susquatch - other than needing to repair the main board it's never been a problem and it's had about 20 spools pushed through it.


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## Susquatch (Jan 16, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> I have one from 2006 that's setup like your @Susquatch - other than needing to repair the main board it's never been a problem and it's had about 20 spools pushed through it.



Good to hear. If I could aspire to one spool a year, that would be a lot. I'll prolly be growing daisies from the bottom up in 20 years. But even if not, I won't be welding or farming anymore. Maybe a little machining.....


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## Degen (Jan 23, 2022)

Turn your power down a bit, short stick out, quick trigger pull and release.  Move to a new location and repeat.   Keeps heat from building and causing melt through.

I've never used gas with my Mig only flux core so Aluminum was out of the question.  I put about 30lbs of 0.30 wire through my machine over the years.

Switched to Tig best  thing I ever did.  Same machine dies stick if I need quick and dirt (mind you need yo learn stick).


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## Susquatch (Jan 23, 2022)

Degen said:


> Turn your power down a bit, short stick out, quick trigger pull and release. Move to a new location and repeat. Keeps heat from building and causing melt through.



Power and feed are both as low as they go. But the quick trigger pull and release is a new concept for me. Frankly, this seems like solid gold advice. Never thought if it and obviously never tried it. 

Thinking back, others have probably tried to tell me that but I didn't understand what they meant till just now. 

I'll try that as soon as I get the chance!

Thank you!


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## Degen (Jan 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Power and feed are both as low as they go. But the quick trigger pull and release is a new concept for me. Frankly, this seems like solid gold advice. Never thought if it and obviously never tried it.
> 
> Thinking back, others have probably tried to tell me that but I didn't understand what they meant till just now.
> 
> ...












Hopefully this helps, lots of video online about this.


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