# Another "Thinking about acquiring a mill" thread



## justindavidow (Jan 1, 2022)

Hi folks!

I'm hankering to get back into the milling game.

It's been..  a long time since I've owned a mill, and I've never owned a remotely "new" mill,  so I'm struggling to find many good resources on a good industry-wide comparison of options.

I have a few current personal restrictions;  as much as I'd love to pick up a knee mill: I simply cannot justify stripping one down and moving it into a basement for ~2 years.    Def looking forward to getting a workshop built in 2023+ but there's no time like the present!  I have access to a much larger / more rigid mill for specific jobs (local makerspaces are amazing!)  but really need something for the 1:00AM "will this work?" and the odd weekend "hey buddy" jobs.

I'm looking for a benchtop class mill.  I'm not expecting something to run mass production batches or miracles;  I'm well aware of the limitations and issues with benchtop machines in general.

My "requirements" currently:


belt drive
need to be able to get the unit into and out of a basement without it taking a week.
R8 taper
175mm * 425mm  (or 7"x17") minimum X/Y travels on the table
min 300mm (12") in available "Z" (table-to-spindle)
at least 50mm (2") in spindle travel
single phase power input

If anyone is curious about WHY these specific requirements:   ask and I'd be happy to explain.  (I doubt most would care though! )

I've been looking at:


Precision Matthews PM-25MV or PM-30MV or PM-727V
Little Machine Shop 6500 (Sieg X2.7)
King Canada KC-20VS-2 (needs a belt drive conversion)
Grizzly G0704 (needs a belt drive conversion)
Busy Bee CX601 (needs a belt drive conversion)

I'd love to know:


What other machines should I be looking at?   Is anyone aware of anything else around this category?
Does anyone have a machine in this category have any thoughts or concerns to share?
Does anyone have one of the above machines that I can shoot a few questions to?

Thanks folks!


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## SomeGuy (Jan 2, 2022)

Interested in hearing the outcome of this....the PM-727V interests me the most, if only it weren't so expensive to get it here.


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## justindavidow (Jan 3, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> if only it weren't so expensive to get it here



I feel you there @SomeGuy .   As someone who lives in Winnipeg;  we're basically equally as far from nearly every single shipping option in North America, not to mention the cross-border costs. 

I am VERY lucky to have access to a commercial loading dock.  That makes the shipping process a whole lot easier (and fortunately cheaper!)


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## justindavidow (Jan 3, 2022)

Currently I'm leaning towards the PM-30MV;  Somehow I missed that the PM-727V only has 15" (380mm) of X travel which scratches it off my list. 

At this stage; I'm trying to figure out the assembly weight of the major "chunks" on the PM-30MV,   I'll need to be able to break down and transport the mill a few times a year and need to know that I'll be able to handle doing that.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Budget? Used? Or is new ok Justin? Why is the belt a must have? The PM-30 does look good. My little mill is a CX600 craftex. half the weight and quite a bit smaller than the PM-30. Also not $4K CAD....


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## justindavidow (Jan 3, 2022)

Janger said:


> Budget?



AIMING for delivered machine cost to be under $5500.  I can be convinced on better value though. 

I'm planning to add a DRO, Table feed (or two), Powered Z, a half-decent vise, (etc) all at a later stage.  I will likely DIY many of the electronics and just use steppers for most of this;  it's simply more comfortable for me to go that route. 



Janger said:


> Used? Or is new ok Justin?



I'm not against a used machine;   leaves more room for tooling and allows me to get something together faster. 

I was intending to buy new... or refurbished;  I'm all for talking to shops and getting a cosmetic defect return or whatnot,  I could hardly care what a machine looks like as long as it does what's needed of it.

Given where I live (Winnipeg);  used is rare and generally over-priced.   With all the current shit going on in the world (and being busy with my actual job!)  I'm not interested in traveling to find something in AB/ON.   In a few years when looking for a knee mill and a project;  I'll def aim to pick up something used and in need of some love. 



Janger said:


> Why is the belt a must have?



TLDR:  Basically just for personal reasons. 

I have run smaller gear-head mills in the past;   it's simply a much bigger pain in the ass for me for motor changes, gear replacements, belts allow for a MUCH wider array of pulley sizes for peak torque at various speeds, etc.  
I find (personally) belt-drive spindles _tend_ to be better built and easier to maintain over time.


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## SomeGuy (Jan 3, 2022)

justindavidow said:


> I feel you there @SomeGuy .   As someone who lives in Winnipeg;  we're basically equally as far from nearly every single shipping option in North America, not to mention the cross-border costs.
> 
> I am VERY lucky to have access to a commercial loading dock.  That makes the shipping process a whole lot easier (and fortunately cheaper!)



Shipping on items like this suck in general...I've only done it a couples times (my lift and my big tool box) and both of those were Canadian retailers. I've done big buys from the states, but it always ends up costing more than anticipated. I'd order a PM mill tomorrow it I could just pay the US price without exchange, duty, brokerage, extra freight, etc.

My work doesn't have a dock height loading door but they have shipping/receiving with a large forklift and even a bridge crane, then I could just pop it on my trailer to get it home...so I also have some flexibility on receiving.



justindavidow said:


> Currently I'm leaning towards the PM-30MV;  Somehow I missed that the PM-727V only has 15" (380mm) of X travel which scratches it off my list.
> 
> At this stage; I'm trying to figure out the assembly weight of the major "chunks" on the PM-30MV,   I'll need to be able to break down and transport the mill a few times a year and need to know that I'll be able to handle doing that.



I'm looking for a small but potent machine, basically as much heft as I could find that would fit into a fairly narrow 3-4ish feet width.


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## John Conroy (Jan 3, 2022)

You might be surprised by shipping prices from PM. I bought a PM1054TV (3500 pounds) mill from them last summer and the shipping and customs brkerage fee was less than half what I was quoted by KBC Tools to ship a similar sized mill from Ontario to Edmonton. Send them an email and get a quote.  You won't find another vendor to match their warranty. Try getting warranty or even replacement parts from Busy Bee or King Canada, many have tried with little success.


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## Dabbler (Jan 3, 2022)

Here's things from my perspective: 

I've moved full sized Bridgeport mills out of basements, and they go down easier than up.
I have  moved a full sized mill from Richmond to Calgary for 800$.  Things have gone up, but these things are possible.

The best value is in used, providing you can evaluate one, and you manage to find a decent one.

I  also second the 'try Precision Matthews' comments from John.


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## justindavidow (Jan 6, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> You might be surprised by shipping prices from PM



Well;  I have to say;   I reached out to PM today to get a quote for a PM-30MV (and some accessories)   shipped including lift-gate service and I can say for sure:  you're 100% right;  I was very surprised at what a great shipping option they offered. 

I spend a few minutes yesterday contemplating getting the pallet flat-rate shipped to Pembina (North Dakota)  and then just driving down and picking it up myself.   

The quote PM gave me JUST about beats the flat-rate + gas costs,  and includes full lift-gate at home. 

So far my opinion of Precision Matthews has been astounding,  and I'm very much looking forward to continuing with the process!  Now if only it wasn't so damn cold..


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## SomeGuy (Jan 6, 2022)

justindavidow said:


> Well;  I have to say;   I reached out to PM today to get a quote for a PM-30MV (and some accessories)   shipped including lift-gate service and I can say for sure:  you're 100% right;  I was very surprised at what a great shipping option they offered.
> 
> I spend a few minutes yesterday contemplating getting the pallet flat-rate shipped to Pembina (North Dakota)  and then just driving down and picking it up myself.
> 
> ...



Can you share the quote numbers with me? Private message is fine if you don't want to make it public.


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## ShawnR (Jan 7, 2022)

justindavidow said:


> Well;  I have to say;   I reached out to PM today to get a quote for a PM-30MV (and some accessories)   shipped including lift-gate service and I can say for sure:  you're 100% right;  I was very surprised at what a great shipping option they offered.
> 
> I spend a few minutes yesterday contemplating getting the pallet flat-rate shipped to Pembina (North Dakota)  and then just driving down and picking it up myself.
> 
> ...



I am glad you are considering a PM. I have been really happy with my lathe last March? I do have a local company that brings things over the border so I just met them there and did a trailer switch. The border is near by. Shortly after getting the lathe, the motor seemed hesitant to start on higher gears. I suspected the motor start cap and sent them an email. Within 2 hours, they had one in the mail to me and a tracking number was in my Inbox. Hard to beat that service. I told them in a follow up email that I was not even sure it was the cap but they said no problem, lets start there and see if it works. It did.

Further to that, Quinn Dunki )Blondiehacks has a video on her PM blowing a motor and the steps she went through to getting it repaired. It is good to hear the story on PM's support. Granted, she would be a high profile user so advantageous for PM to look  after her.

As to your choices, I have a Sieg X3 bought from Little Machine Shop. I think the mill is fine but I find it very light duty. I suspect though that the set up is poor (bench is on casters, cutters might be crappy, etc, weak operator....)  and use it so seldom that I have not taken the time to make it more rigid. I did tram it and off very slightly but over all, pretty good. The mill itself is well supported for CNC conversions and online support by users. Little Machine Shop was good to deal with to. I have, supposedly, a DRO coming for it and if it ever arrives, I will take the time to deep dive the machine and get to know it better.

I am thinking about upgrading to a PM Mill. But again, as only an occasional user, cannot convince myself yet. 

So, glad that @John Conroy encouraged you to look at PM. I second that. 

One other note, I would suggest getting a quote. From the time I got my quote to actually placing the order, my lathe went up $400 US! They honoured the quote. Had I waited a few more days to place the order, ...... You  don't have to buy it based on the quote, but at least it gives you a couple of weeks where you know the price, should they go up without warning, as mine did.

uuuuuu....aaaahhhhh   the smell of a new machine....

Cheers, 
Shawn


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## Dabbler (Jan 7, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Granted, she would be a high profile user so advantageous for PM to look after her.


Matt is a frequent contributor and sponsor on the other site.  I have talked with him by phone and tried to intervene when there was a dissatisfied customer on that forum loudly proclaiming how unfair Matt was.  It turns out Matt even offered to give this guy a full refund.  He really does try to take care of his customers, even when he's losing money.


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## justindavidow (Jan 7, 2022)

Well;   I bit-the-bullet and placed an order for a PM-30MV. 

I ended up deciding on a PM product after positive after positive after positive review from users here and on hobby-machinist;  even the users who ended up selling or returning machines: have nothing but good things to say about PM. 

That narrowed my options down to the PM-25MV or PM-30MV,  and although I think the PM-25MV MIGHT have been _slightly_ better for my specific requirements and circumstances: the benefits of the PM-30MV and the minimal additional cost really pushed me to select the larger (and heavier) model. 

ETA is 3-6 weeks at this stage (maybe longer)  which I'm totally fine with.  I need to get some space cleared up anyhow. 

I'm planning to document the process and will def share info as things happen,   until things actually proceed and I am 110% sure that the whole order isn't going to get canceled,  I'll refrain from sharing much. (Getting ahead of myself feels like a sure-fire way for something to go wrong!) 

Thanks folks!


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## DPittman (Jan 7, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Matt is a frequent contributor and sponsor on the other site.  I have talked with him by phone and tried to intervene when there was a dissatisfied customer on that forum loudly proclaiming how unfair Matt was.  It turns out Matt even offered to give this guy a full refund.  He really does try to take care of his customers, even when he's losing money.


Yup I think PM must be smart business people cuz I think they realize that even loosing money once in a blue moon to satisfy a customer pays them dividends I  the long run.  I can't think of any other retailer of Asian machinery that has such a good reputation.  I know I will certainly look towards them if I have any new machinery needs.  Compare the PM reputation with Busy Bee and considering that while there can be some differences in the machines themselves the real big difference is in customer satisfaction.


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## John Conroy (Jan 7, 2022)

I think you'll be happy dealing with Matt and the folks at PM. Two years previous to the PM mill purchase I bought a new lathe from Modern Tool and I'm very happy with the machine but when it came to dealing with them for after sales service the experience was not at the same level as PM. When I bought my PM1054 the shipping got quite delayed due to congestion at the Port of Los Angeles but the ports seem to getting back to normal now so hopefully your machine will arrive when predicted. This post documented my purchase from beginning to delivery. The machine is every bit as good as the sales literature says.









						New 10" X 54" mill ordered.
					

As some of you already know I have ordered a new Precision Matthews PM1054 mill. Due to production and shipping issues caused by the pandemic the ETA has been pushed back to late August. I ordered a 3 phase motor as I really like the electronic variable speed functionality afforded when using a...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## ShawnR (Jan 7, 2022)

justindavidow said:


> Well;   I bit-the-bullet and placed an order for a PM-30MV.
> 
> I ended up deciding on a PM product after positive after positive after positive review from users here and on hobby-machinist;  even the users who ended up selling or returning machines: have nothing but good things to say about PM.


Atta boy!


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## PeterT (Jan 7, 2022)

I forgot to mention if you were going to call Matt, to pick his brain a bit about mill knockdown for transportation/moving into basement or whatever if I understood your list desirable requirements. There may be pros & cons to that depending on the machine. I had an RF-45 mill & by the time I figured out the lift equipment to pull the gear head off the column, move it in chunks & re-assemble to another location, maybe with a constrained ceiling height, might be better to just get the right moving equipment/know-how & move it assembled with the gearhead low etc. Pulling the table doesn't save a high % of weight but  may well be desirable for other reasons. The heavy chunks are head/motor, column & base. Sometimes pulling the column off the base results in alignment issues that you fight with later on, but again, machine specific. We have some forum experts knowledgeable in moving machine equipment, so ask questions beforehand.


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## Dabbler (Jan 7, 2022)

I'm a fan of nmoving a machine as intact 'as possible'  Yeah I had to completely disassemble Bert's machines just to move them but that _was _different...


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## justindavidow (Jan 12, 2022)

Well;   I just got an email that my new PM-30MV has shipped!

I was not expecting it to ship so soon;   but what a nice surprise! 

I don't have tracking information yet (I have the details;  but I expect it will take a day or two before it works!)  and I have not yet communicated with the shipper to arrange delivery info.    Once I actually GET the mill I'll document the whole process much better and share for anyone interested!


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## DPittman (Jan 12, 2022)

Woo-hoo!   Ya know we all got the same "disease" when we can be excited to share and learn about the arrival of a new machine!


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## justindavidow (Jan 23, 2022)

So;  my mill arrived on Thursday last week (Jan 20 2022)!

I was NOT expecting to have the mill in my possession this early in the year,  let alone setup and hours away from being ready to make parts!  When I initially emailed Precision Matthews to get the shipping quote;  they mentioned that they were expecting stock to arrive "late January" and then expected (guessed) that shipping would end up taking a few weeks to arrange + execute.    Given how quickly everything happened,   I'm actually a little stumped on when I'm actually going to get a chance to USE the mill as I'll be busy with work for the next 6-9 weeks. 


After my PM-30MV shipped,  the various freight companies along the way ran into the snowstorm in Ontario in early January,   then a back-logged CBSA took 6 days to actually release the shipment.   All said and done it left the Precision Matthews warehouse on Wed, Jan 12 2022 and was put into the back of my truck in the afternoon on Jan 20'th.  

I picked the crate up at the freight terminal,  the staff were super helpful and loaded the mill into the back of my truck with a forklift.  Very impressed with the overall process.   Everyone was very professional, accommodating and wonderfully helpful to answer any questions I had. 

I had to strip the mill down to components to move it into my basement, there was no hope in moving the mill in one piece without hiring a rigger so I took the afternoon off of work Thursday and had arranged with a friend to borrow his garage.   Given the -25 weather in Winnipeg on Thursday;  this as a nightmare.  Everything was frozen and given the mass had nearly zero chance to warm up in the short time I was indoors.   I was worried that the DRO LCD may have frozen in transport;  but appears to have sustained no damage at all.

I didn't have much trouble taking the mill apart;   it hurt to pull the pre-installed DRO kit off the mill but I wasn't interested in risking breaking anything while moving the components.   The air-spring in the column was fairly exciting to remove,   it's got a lot of stored energy.  Knowing that it was there;  I raised the column as far as it would go,  but there was still ~3-4 inches of spring-back.   I didn't bother keeping track of the fasteners as I went,  it seemed very obvious where everything was supposed to go so as I removed parts they went into the included toolbox or some plastic storage tubs to ensure they stayed together. 

I got everything unloaded and into the house;  each component was fairly easy to manage alone by hand;  but my partner offered to help and my back thanks her deeply. 

I ended up busy with work on Friday, so the assemblies sat and warmed up in my basement for the day.   My basement is fairly dry right now (thanks Canadian winter!) and there was very little sweating or condensation. I left the components up on absorbent shop towels and all were dry except the base casting.  (which had maybe 1-2 tablespoons of water in the shop towels.)

Saturday and today I got the mill into it's location, machine has built back up, I did the electrical work, scrubbed the protective grease and table protection film off, then went through reinstalling and aligning the DRO.   The mill has made a handful of test cuts and I need to get through tramming. I opted to get one of the PM-30MV's with the factory installed DRO,  I was going to after-market one but ended up deciding last minute that I simply wasn't going to have time to get to sorting a kit out myself for a few months.  I'm glad I did end up going this route,  as it makes the machine significantly quicker to use right away (for me!) 


I weighed most of the components as I went;  I've got to go back and detail my measurements and come up with some way to present that data.  (I'll start a new post on this when I have time!) I think I missed weighing the saddle itself (though I think I can infer it's weight from some of the assemblies..  Next time I have it apart I'll try to get a better measurement of everything again!) 

So far;  VERY happy with the whole process and excited to get the machine working on projects in the coming weeks! 


Now;  the "horror" of needing tooling.


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## PeterT (Jan 23, 2022)

Wow good for you. I know its hard when the task is front & center but hope you snapped some pics.


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## neer724 (Jan 24, 2022)

Congratulations!!!  I will be going though a similar process hopefully within the next 4 weeks.  Considering the XC600 with a belt conversion, but the PM PM-25 might be a better option when its all said and done.

Further, I will also have to disassemble the machine to bring it down to my basement, I would be interested in seeing your numbers on the weights of each of the major "chunks".

Thanks again,
Steve


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 24, 2022)

Congrats on the new machine. Now to start spending on tooling.


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## Susquatch (Jan 24, 2022)

justindavidow said:


> Now; the "horror" of needing tooling



Unless you already know what you want, my advice is to buy only the obvious - a vise, a collet or two or a set, a few endmills (just 1/4 & 1/2 - or 6mm and 12mm both in hss and carbide), and then get what you find you need as your usage grows. Otherwise you end up buying a ton of stuff you will never use or is the wrong size. I know it's hard to resist, but that's my advice just the same.


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## ShawnR (Jan 24, 2022)

Very exciting! Congratulations on the new arrival!  Sorry we missed the gender reveal party. Is it a girl or boy?


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