# Group Sourcing Metal Ideas



## Jwest7788 (Nov 25, 2015)

Jwest7788 said:


> Good thought. @Alexander and I were discussing something similar after our last meet up.
> 
> I'm on vacation till Monday, with poor access to Internet. But I have an idea on how we can centralize the process. When I get back I'll see about the best way to implement, likely run a beta and see how it goes.
> 
> Expect a new thread in the forum in this regard next week.



Hey Everyone, Hope all is well.

Group Sourcing Metal, what are our goals? What are potential limitations? Risks Associated?
These have been the thoughts in my head lately.

Here are the ideas I've had to date to try to accomplish getting metal easier for everyone, (both good and bad ideas ;P)

*Corporate accounts with local suppliers*
--> (I've reached out to Encore, and a couple others, no response. Who all  I should contact?)
--> This option I think will still result in everyone having to go to the location themselves
--> Some corporate accounts also come with regular billing, and therefore centralized billing
--> Twice now I have been told that corporate accounts offer 0 discount, and they wanted me to fill out a credit application, so we can buy as a group, then pay back at the end of the month. Which is not really what we need.
--> So far there hasn't been much friendly banter with the people who have contacted me (You should see the legalese BS credit application I was sent. One other company just said "We have sales periodically, you should just watch for those, and tell your organization to shop here with no group buying." lol


I'm guessing the rest of the industry functions in a similar way to what I've dug up above, but will continue to call around if you guys have any other suggestions. As the above doesn't really feel like it's going to workout, let's discuss figuring out a way to manage this ourselves.

*Group Pre-order, then single purchase // Single Purchase, then sell to group?*
--> How would this be managed? This puts us in one of two positions, either we ask members to trust and pay up front, or we get opt in, then someone risks getting stiffed with a thousand bucks worth of metal. 
------> Taking a deposit on all orders maybe? Then we can tally easily, and everyone has skin in the game equally? How much deposit?
--> How would we handle money? (I have experience running Paypal accounts?) The forum software has a payment function built into it, but I haven't spent the time to learn it yet.
--> How would we handle pickup/delivery?

*E-commerce store*
--> Inventory becomes an issue, both for management, storage, as does the above noted up front costs.
--> Why pay online when you need to meet to pass the metal around anyways?

*What to buy?*
--> Managing orders will be a pain, I'm happy to put some elbow grease in if we can get this sorted though.
--> Like, do we say, "We'll be making a trip once we get to 100lbs worth of opt in" then bombard encore with 400 different metals and cut sizes etc? Or do we say "Who wants 4140, 1" rod?" etc.
--> Could make a section on the site specifically for different metal varieties, with like a poll system for opt in maybe? Then once enough opt in is hit, move on to whatever the next step is?



Anyways, lets figure this out and get metal easier!


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## Kris Jensen (Dec 5, 2015)

I can stock 20' lengths of mild steel I get from Russell metals, I could buy it in the 20' lengths and then whoever can come out and cut it down to a more manageable size but the only problem is I'm out in okotoks. I can get aluminum and stainless as well but just have the storage for the mild


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## Kris Jensen (Dec 5, 2015)

If I get enough people involved I could deliver the 20' lengths to whoevers house when I pick it up, just would need a little bit to cover the cost and time of delivery


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## Janger (Dec 6, 2015)

Thanks for looking in to this Josh. We're just too small potatoes I suspect. More than once I've thought about opening a store....  This mess is why metal stupid market can stay in business.

Did federal metals ever open their new building? They said they were going to stock more material types. I like federal they will happily sell me whatever I want which is a strange thing to be grateful for.

@kylemp @Alexander where do you guys get material? Especially 12L14, tool steel, and other harder to get stuff?

I think if we showed up with a specific list and a pile of cash at encore they would probably sell but I'd rather deal with people who want to help us....

@Kris Jensen has the most viable answer I think.


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## kylemp (Dec 10, 2015)

I typically use Federal for hot rolled and structural. Metal supermarket is absolute shit, but they do seem to have what you want in stock when you need it. I've only ever bought from there once, and its not going to happen again unless I REALLY need something NOW. Samuels has almost everything you could want but they have minimums and I think you can only get full lengths. If anyone wants to put an order together I would probably be into picking up some material to have around such as 12L or tool steel.


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## DelbertD (Jan 19, 2017)

I buy mostly at Metal supermarket but have bought at Federal. I found both places eager to help


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## 4Jawbilly (Oct 17, 2017)

Junk Yards can be a great and inexpensive source.  Whenever I come by a Junkyard and have a bit time  I like to  go scrounging.
Try to make Friends with the Guys and often end up with Bargains.  I hunt mostly for Stainless to make stuff for my Boat and Lead for casting Bullets.

On another note:
If you are in need for extremely good Wire look for what is called in the Oilpatch "Slickline". This stuff is unbelivable strong and tough with enormus tensile strenght.  Diameter is usually 3-4mm.  You can make all kinds of neat stuff out of it, also tooling but be warned it is so hard it will ruin Vice Jaws or Bolt cutterss very quickly.  I had it for 3 years in saltwater not a speck of rust on it.
U can get this cheap from Companies providing "Wireline" services. I understand a new Roll of about 6Km costs about 30K. After some time in use and many bending cycles the Wireline Company cutts the Roll up and it goes into the trash.  I bought a whole pickup load for 25Bucks the Guy just wantet it out of the yard.  Most of it I used as reebar in a concrete Floor. I been told some Farmers use it as Fencing material.

Cheers -4J


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## Tom Kitta (Jun 21, 2018)

The problem is that there are a lot of types of metals in a lot of sizes & people may need only small pieces in specific sizes. There is a reason metal supermarkets is alive and ... expanding operations. 

Given the fact that federal metals has no minimums on hot rolled (up to 2") and has all hobbyist structural steel needs I think the gap is in speciality steel department. 

In AB there is more need for square stock than round stock as round is used by oil industry and is "relatively" common. 

So smaller pieces of 4140 square stock in say 1" to 4" sizes. The problem is storage & buying it all as well as selling it back to the group.

After all I still have 10 tons of round stock in 4140 and 4330. Lifetime supply. But a pain to make square out of round. Also 4330 is frequently "too much steel". 

Maybe a little website where people would add themselves to an order which then could be placed in the US from one of online retailers? Never used any but US shipping for US Post is a great value - wish we had this in Canada.


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## Janger (Jun 21, 2018)

Round to square! Lol yeah... I do that.


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## Tom Kitta (Jun 21, 2018)

You do it exactly the same way I do it! Cut a slice, cut corners, square it up on the mill. Except I didn't make pictures.


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## PeterT (Jun 22, 2018)

Nice. Why did I get this impression the big pallet-O-4140 off-cut buy had center holes in the logs? Maybe just some of them? How has that been machining for you guys? Is it kind of equivalent to a hot roll?


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## Tom Kitta (Jun 22, 2018)

I have many pallets of 4140 and 4330. Some logs are with holes some are solid. Some are thick rolled pipe. Some are very big some man portable. 

4140 is very nice. It is harder than hot roles but not ridiculous. Like 120 for hot rolled and 190 for 4140. I never yet hardened it but now I finally getting equipment to do so. 4140 is much better for most steel applications than hot rolled. Machines with better shine etc.

4330 is much harder than hot rolled - 120 vs 280. It creates problems for HSS and is generally hard to work in with HSS which means carbide use is heavy. It is hard to work with in a home shop environment but the end product even without hardening looks like something from factory - finish is great hardness is high. It is right on the edge of hardness for tapping for example - you have to frequently go down from standard 75% thread engagement to 65% or even just 50% to tap the holes. 

Machinable stainless is a bit harder than 4140 but less so than 4330.

For any sort of home tooling 4000 series steels are far more superior to hot rolled. 

For 4000 series or at least 4330 I would go with bi-metal blade for the band saw - it still takes forever to take a cut. Hot rolled A36 is so much easier to cut. 

I never tried to do things such a knurling on 4330 - I imagine it would be hard to do but if succeeded it would last forever.


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## Janger (Feb 1, 2019)

Hi Members
Recently I've been working on a couple projects and have found it frustrating to use hot roll and the amount of clean up required before I had bare steel to use. I looked at the usual suspects store to buy a stock of nice cold roll flat bar and found the prices to be outrageous as expected. so... what about a group buy and getting some quotes for a number of us. Perhaps 100-200 pounds each with a target cost of under $2 a pound. If we had four people commit then that might be $1000+ which should get past any minimum order. But the lengths sold at these bigger suppliers are typically 20' so to get to 5' chunks each four people would have to sign up. Or eight. A set package of material would make it a lot easier on the organizer - me.

I propose a package of metal for each participating member target price of $200-300 and looking like this:

1018 cold roll. It's machinable, weldable, clean, cheaper...

1 square 1" by 5' long
3 selections of Flat Bar 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 thick by 6" by 5' long
3 selections of Round 1" 1.5" 2" round 5' long
Weighs 228 pounds @$1.50/lb = $342 each <- really guessing at that at $1.50/pound.

If we dropped the 1/2" flat and the 2" round that would remove 100 pounds from the order. reduced to $192 each.

I just kind of picked some shapes I thought I could use - perhaps other sizes would be better? The sizes need to be pretty vanilla so everyone can be interested. If you want something unusual like 1 1/4” hex then you would probably need to buy a whole 20’ length.

Vendors: James at Steel Inc., MSM?, Varsteel? Fasteel Vancouver? Encore? Russell? https://www.emjmetals.com/pdf_indexer/pdfs/Cold_Finish_carbon_bars_and_cold_rolled_strip.pdf

anybody got any ideas?

BTW MSM on the web site wants about $3.40 a pound ~$775 for this material.
Any interest? I need 4 Or 8 members to say yes. Multiples of 4 anyway.


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## Johnwa (Feb 1, 2019)

Samuel Wilkinson Steel
6125 - 51st Street SE
Calgary, Alberta

Protospace had a good group buy of aluminum from them. JohnW might know the details.

I not interested in the group buy.


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## Alexander (Feb 1, 2019)

I am interested


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## Dabbler (Feb 2, 2019)

I just picked up some 1/3" 5/8" 3/4" and 1 1/4" plate...  hummm I should have waited.  
- Cautiously interested.


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## Janger (Feb 2, 2019)

Ok Names I've got so far...
In: John A. Kevin D.
Maybe: Alexander, Peter T, John C. (Dabbler), Brian Ross
Commented: John Conroy
Out: JohnWa

Anybody else?

Are the sizes proposed reasonable or do other people have alternates?


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 2, 2019)

Sizes seem fine for me.

I'd also be picking up some general steel for fabbing around the acreage. I'll usually pickup 100 feet of 1" and 2" square tubing for making tables , benches etc. This year I'll also be looking at some lengths of ibeam for a lean to shelter off the shop. When I place an order I'll see if anyone wants in






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brian Ross (Feb 2, 2019)

I'd be interested as well (assuming the cost is reasonable).


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## Alexander (Feb 2, 2019)

I think those sizes look good. i need to check how large my mill vices open.


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## DPittman (Feb 2, 2019)

I don't think I will take part of this buy at this time, but great idea and effort! 

What about aluminum stock?  Anyone interested in getting plate/block aluminum of different sizes? I think I would.  I seem to have a few dream projects that need chunks of aluminum which I never have.  Maybe I'm the only one.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 2, 2019)

Alexander said:


> I think those sizes look good. i need to check how large my mill vices open.



Good point on the vise width ...... I'll have to check


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Janger (Feb 2, 2019)

DPittman said:


> I don't think I will take part of this buy at this time, but great idea and effort!
> 
> What about aluminum stock?  Anyone interested in getting plate/block aluminum of different sizes? I think I would.  I seem to have a few dream projects that need chunks of aluminum which I never have.  Maybe I'm the only one.



DPittman have a look at federalmetals.com for some sizes and also try EMJmetals.com . EMJ has an extensive catalog of all kinds of material - I'm impressed. They are in Edmonton. If you multiply the weight of the part by $3.70 per pound for aluminum that's probably in the right area to give you an idea. Federal seems to want $3.70/pound for their 1/8 plate aluminium. If you do want something specific post - maybe we could add some on to an order.


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## PeterT (Feb 2, 2019)

Janger - EMJ was suggested when we were talking about aluminum in the past because I remember their web catalog. It is very complete. But where were you seeing the $/lb multiple? I cant see their price sheet. Maybe you need an account to expose that on their website? Seems like I called them for a spot check price on 2" dia 2024 or similar alloy & it was about the same as AS&S on $/ft basis, but I think on full length stick vs off cuts.


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## Janger (Feb 2, 2019)

PeterT said:


> Janger - EMJ was suggested when we were talking about aluminum in the past because I remember their web catalog. It is very complete. But where were you seeing the $/lb multiple? I cant see their price sheet. Maybe you need an account to expose that on their website? Seems like I called them for a spot check price on 2" dia 2024 or similar alloy & it was about the same as AS&S on $/ft basis, but I think on full length stick vs off cuts.



The price I am guessing at. hot roll is $1ish/pound so tack-on 50% and I guessed $1.50/pound. Now that I have some interest I'll actually ask for a quote. I don't see prices anywhere except metal supermarket and federal. 

Sorry who is AS&S ?


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## Dabbler (Feb 2, 2019)

For a big order like that perhaps James will quote a special price for us?


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## ducdon (Feb 3, 2019)

I do much of my work in aluminum, I have a small inventory off steel on hand and very limited space to store more, especially in lengths. I usually but what I need in small quantities specific to the job. When I do work for other people I sometimes negotiate part of the compensation in material. I really like the idea of a group deal but I don't think it would work for me.


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## BMW Rider (Feb 7, 2019)

I wouldn't mind having a better selection of metal on hand, but perhaps about half the quantity proposed. If there is someone else in the Calgary area who is interested in a half share I'd be in for this.

I do more aluminum work as well so any group buys of that would interest me.


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## Dabbler (Feb 7, 2019)

BMW I'd be ion for a half.


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## YYCHM (Feb 7, 2019)

BMW Rider said:


> I wouldn't mind having a better selection of metal on hand, but perhaps about half the quantity proposed. If there is someone else in the Calgary area who is interested in a half share I'd be in for this.



I would be interested in splitting a share with you.


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## YYCHM (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm in, provided it comes in at the $200 mark or there abouts.


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## Janger (Feb 10, 2019)

I'm getting some quotes. Maybe we want eight people who all want 2.5' lengths.


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## Janger (Feb 15, 2019)

Well James at steel inc. couldn’t get a price. It was so bad he didn’t even tell me the details. Basically the qty was just too low. I’ll try some more here... if anyone knows some sales reps please help.


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## Tom O (Feb 15, 2019)

Janger said:


> Well James at steel inc. couldn’t get a price. It was so bad he didn’t even tell me the details. Basically the qty was just too low. I’ll try some more here... if anyone knows some sales reps please help.


How goes the course you’re taking?


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 15, 2019)

Would something with a bit more carbon content cost more? 1045 for example? https://www.capitalsteel.net/news/blog/1018-vs-1045-steel-comparison

1018 is just cold rolled equivalent (almost) to A-36 hot rolled stuff.


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## Janger (Feb 16, 2019)

Tom O said:


> How goes the course you’re taking?


Starts late Feb.


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## Janger (Feb 16, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Would something with a bit more carbon content cost more? 1045 for example? https://www.capitalsteel.net/news/blog/1018-vs-1045-steel-comparison
> 
> 1018 is just cold rolled equivalent (almost) to A-36 hot rolled stuff.



I'm not certain but I expect it does cost more.


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## Janger (Feb 20, 2019)

Well I got a quote from Encore and did an online check with Metal Super Market. I then compared to Federal Online for Hot roll. 

Encore is a lot better than Metal Super Market but it is still significantly more than hot roll. At Encore for the flat bar they don't have it in Calgary and it has to come from Vancouver and Chicago. Price per pound is $3-$3.5. The round and square is available here is better with a price per pound of $1.90 to $2.47/pound. For the group buy that would have cost $347 each split 8 ways with each person getting 8 hunks  - some 3 feet long and some 2.5 feet long. average cost $2.73 / pound. To split it 4 ways like I originally thought it would be $695 each. 

MSM was about double with $680 split 8 ways each but actually a little less material - all 8 hunks 2.5 feet long. average cost $5.34 / pound. Delivered. 

Going back to Federal Metals or I believe quite similar at James Steel Inc. the cost would have been $125 each for the eight hunks 2.5' long. average cost $1.10 per pound. You could get the 8 sizes 10' long for $502 and take home 457 pounds of material. 

Conclusion: Cold Roll 1018 in Calgary even from an industrial supplier is about 2-3.5 times the cost for the equivalent hot roll. I think for the money I will continue to buy hot roll 1018 and clean it up myself. We just don't have the volume even as a group to make this work. 

I do have a question for the group - does anyone know anyone in USA with a local steel supplier - I would be interested to see what this might cost say in the Chicago / Detroit area.


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2019)

Well that's too bad.  I was looking forward to having a stash of materials to draw from at whim.  Sure appreciate your efforts though.

Would there be any interest in doing the group buy in hot rolled instead?


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 20, 2019)

Wow - that is crazy high price - people got a great deal on my 4140 and 4330 steel! 

Got to look more at auctions and maybe try to get some of the smaller pieces - buying retail in Calgary is way out of the league. 

https://www.midweststeelsupply.com/store/1018coldrollsteelroundbar

Steel round bar is just over $1 USD per lbs for 1018

I could not find anything in Montana - guess they only have cows. Maybe Washington is better.

With prices so high here with a group buy maybe its cheapest to just drive to the US pickup two tons and drive back? Imagine that steel may be Canadian made... going back home. 

Also Vancouver would be a good place to check - they have lots of import Chinese steel.


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## Janger (Feb 20, 2019)

That’s pretty interesting Tom. Thanks for posting. That is the prices I expected here. 1018 cold roll is not much more difficult to make than 1018 hot so I expected in volume to pay not that much more. It’s still 1018... CANADA and Calgary... everything costs.


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## Brian Ross (Feb 20, 2019)

Spokane Washington is probably the closest reasonably sized city to Calgary in the US. There are some suppliers with a good variety of products and online pricing. Cold rolled is certainly much cheaper down there but when you take into consideration the exchange rate and the 25% tariff on US steel it doesn't look like you would save anything. And you still have to get it from there to here. For a cost comparison 2" round in 8 foot lengths comes to almost $3.00/lb CAD (its about $1.80/lb US). I have no idea if the place I looked at has good prices or not but, given that, the local price for round and square cold rolled stock doesn't look so bad.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 20, 2019)

How much do you guys want? 

31,000 pounds of 5140 was about $28,000 USD, less than a dollar a pound in USD. I dragged that back from Michigan this week 

Ok, but seriously, can you guys skip the steel shops and deal directly with a mill somehow? 

Or, can you guys find a cheap source of steel that isn’t local to Calgary, but have it delivered as an LTL shipment? 

Work with a local manufacturing business to have stuff delivered there for pickup, but buying the steel at their discount? 

Just brainstorming out loud


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## Alexander (Feb 20, 2019)

It sucks that we couldn't reach a deal on this try. But working in the industry i remain sympathetic to the issues the suppliers are facing that keep  costs high. I don't have the solution to the problem but i am keeping an eye out for opportunities to save on material costs


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 21, 2019)

The 25% surtax may not even apply to us. First of all origin of steel has to be US (not Canada or other country(?)) second of all it doesn't seem that our stuff is on the list here: https://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/steel-acier/notices-avis/936.aspx?lang=eng

Either that or we cannot get an  exemption for our stuff and have to import with general permit - https://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/steel-acier/notices-avis/907.aspx?lang=eng

The website is very poorly designed & stuff is super convoluted - one would simply need to send them an email and ask for our specific items.  I would guess 1018 is a "carbon steel" not "alloy steel" but they may use different definitions (it is cold rolled).


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Oh dear.. bear with me here [emoji199] I’m starting out on my own in a new shop and still have much to learn about material/what to buy/where to buy it in the most cost-effective way I can but really need to get the ball rolling and have been watching this thread for awhile..

I would be interested in being a part of this. Trying to scavenge out material is sort of (ok very) overwhelming at the start.. I think hot rolled is what I can afford.. I need to build basics first so welding tables/work stations..
I’m thinking thick plate and tubing, or angle perhaps for the tables.. just mild steel

I know my post is not specific and probably quite irrelevant to the thread at the moment but I thought I’d just get it out there that I’m interested and maybe I can add “1” to your numbers in the near future.. 

I’m from the Rocky area but will travel reasonable distances 
Thanks 
[emoji846]


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

Thanks Elsie. Rocky Mountain House ?


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

> Work with a local manufacturing business to have stuff delivered there for pickup, but buying the steel at their discount? 

This is an idea. Maybe there are people on the forum working at places that buy steel - could we piggy back on somebody else's orders? I know some of you have day jobs in shops - is that something we could explore? I commit that we would not make this difficult - full payment in advance - straight forward order - keep it simple and easy. ... ???


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## YYCHM (Feb 21, 2019)

Any interest in doing the group buy in hot rolled instead of cold rolled?

For me, having a stash of something is better than having no stash at all.


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Janger said:


> Thanks Elsie. Rocky Mountain House ?



Yes Rocky Mountain House [emoji846]


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 21, 2019)

EliseLCR said:


> I think hot rolled is what I can afford.. I need to build basics first so welding tables/work stations..
> I’m thinking thick plate and tubing, or angle perhaps for the tables.. just mild steel



For general welding work the cheapest stuff you can get is A36 structural steel - which is hot rolled mild steel. 

If I may suggest a solution to your table needs is buying tables etc. at auction - already pre-made and for much, much, much less then the steel that is in them. Unless you need some custom shapes etc. It just doesn't make financial sense to build your own tables. Even sometimes on Kajiji you can get a workbench for next to nothing. I paid $100 for a 200lbs table and 6" Record vise. $50 for a 500lbs table alone. Etc. Even if you paid $1 per lbs (or less) for hot rolled angle steel there is no way you could come close to these prices. Unless you want a project to learn welding on - that would be something to do.

The cheapest place for A36 in "consumer" amounts is Federal Metals in Calgary (https://www.federalmetals.ca/we-sell/angle) . If I were you I would look into Edmonton as they seem to be more into industry than Calgary and thus there should be cheap place there as well. Red Deer is closest to you - so check for any suppliers there. 

If you want to buy for more than around $500 in A36 then you may get quote from one of the larger distributors. 

You can also buy lots of hot rolled steel segments in large quantities at auction. The discussion of a purchase here is for very specific sized pieces for machining purposes - these are not very easily found.


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> For general welding work the cheapest stuff you can get is A36 structural steel - which is hot rolled mild steel.
> 
> If I may suggest a solution to your table needs is buying tables etc. at auction - already pre-made and for much, much, much less then the steel that is in them. Unless you need some custom shapes etc. It just doesn't make financial sense to build your own tables. Even sometimes on Kajiji you can get a workbench for next to nothing. I paid $100 for a 200lbs table and 6" Record vise. $50 for a 500lbs table alone. Etc. Even if you paid $1 per lbs (or less) for hot rolled angle steel there is no way you could come close to these prices. Unless you want a project to learn welding on - that would be something to do.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much Tom, this is helpful information to me. I’ve been struggling to decide whether buying or building would be best for me. Muchly appreciated


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2019)

EliseLCR said:


> Thank you very much Tom, this is helpful information to me. I’ve been struggling to decide whether buying or building would be best for me. Muchly appreciated


If cost is holding you back, I made mine out of two lengths of truck frame rail and four axles. Found a piece of 3/4 plywood from an old road sign for the top. 

I mean, it’s not pretty. But it was practically free other than some oxy-propane for the torches


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Chicken lights said:


> If cost is holding you back, I made mine out of two lengths of truck frame rail and four axles. Found a piece of 3/4 plywood from an old road sign for the top.
> 
> I mean, it’s not pretty. But it was practically free other than some oxy-propane for the torches



Beauty! Thanks for the creative idea.. I do have quite the collection of scrap! Although most of it I have found a use for at this point..unless I change my mind of course [emoji12]


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Any interest in doing the group buy in hot rolled instead of cold rolled?
> 
> For me, having a stash of something is better than having no stash at all.



Well the group buy was supposed to save money by buying in bulk and dividing. For Hot Roll you can buy at Steel Inc., or Federal Metals at a pretty good price. But if you want bigger material, 1/2" plate, 2" square or 2" round then a 10' length is still a bit expensive as a total cost.






I suppose 5' of 2" square and round would be welcome in my shop. I've personally got some of the flat bar already. ... are people keen to buy 10' lengths and split that up?


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## johnnielsen (Feb 21, 2019)

I have a 4'X8' welding table with a 1/2" top (about 800 pounds with the frame) you can have. you can make a couple of welding tables out of it. I can't help move it. You will need a couple of bruisers to move it.  I have a large crane with which you can lift it.
I also have steel surplus to my needs we can discuss.


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## Dabbler (Feb 21, 2019)

1/2" material for a welding table!  that's perfect!  I'd love to help.


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

Elise looks like we have a quorum to help you get loaded up. Three guys named John.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2019)

Why ARE there so many Johns?


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## Johnwa (Feb 21, 2019)

We could make it 4. LOL


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 21, 2019)

I suspect it was a popular name for boys around 40-60 years ago.... yep they dropped like 60 spots since they heyday 100 years ago - https://www.babycenter.com/baby-names-john-2330.htm

They only lost #1 spot it 1924 - held since 1880; dropped out of top 5 in early 1970s and top 10 in late 1980s.


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

Nope. That doesn’t explain it. It’s only in HERE there are so many Johns. I hardly know anybody named John till I joined this group. This thread has gone so off topic....


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

johnnielsen said:


> I have a 4'X8' welding table with a 1/2" top (about 800 pounds with the frame) you can have. you can make a couple of welding tables out of it. I can't help move it. You will need a couple of bruisers to move it. I have a large crane with which you can lift it.
> I also have steel surplus to my needs we can discuss.



Wow that is incredibly generous of you! I can most definitely make arrangements to come pick it up.. so greatly appreciated.. yes I’ll message you to discuss [emoji846]
Thank you again for this offer 
Elise


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> 1/2" material for a welding table! that's perfect! I'd love to help.



I feel I am getting spoiled on here! What a wonderful group of people on this thread.. very Canadian of you all [emoji4]


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

At this rate I may have to name my firstborn John.. LOL


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## Brian Ross (Feb 21, 2019)

I'd be interested in 5' each of 2" round and square hot rolled.


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## Janger (Feb 21, 2019)

I’m chipping in a 6” welding vise. Anybody else got stuff for our welder Elise?


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## DPittman (Feb 21, 2019)

Janger said:


> I’m chipping in a 6” welding vise. Anybody else got stuff for our welder Elise?


Pretty cool of y'all!


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2019)

Janger said:


> I’m chipping in a 6” welding vise. Anybody else got stuff for our welder Elise?


I’d throw something in the mail if it was welcome, maybe some vise grips c-clamp style?

Do they make pink welding gloves?


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Oh my goodness. Am I ever spoiled! I hope I can return the favours! 
Roses for everyone..?!? Haha


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 21, 2019)

Well since everyone is in giving mood I can chip in some stick electrodes say 318L.


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Chicken lights said:


> I’d throw something in the mail if it was welcome, maybe some vise grips c-clamp style?
> 
> Do they make pink welding gloves?



All is welcome haha but my gosh I’m going to start feeling bad here! You are all incredibly generous. Incredibly nice! 

Ooh! I don’t know.. I hope they do [emoji4]


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## EliseLCR (Feb 21, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Well since everyone is in giving mood I can chip in some stick electrodes say 318L.



Wow, again..I’m very thankful. Don’t know what to say you guys! Thank you


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## YYCHM (Feb 21, 2019)

Janger

Any feel for what this package in hot rolled would cost if divvied up between 4 people?

1 square 1" by 5' long
 3 selections of Flat Bar 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 thick by 6" by 5' long
 3 selections of Round 1" 1.5" 2" round 5' long


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 22, 2019)

I think at federal metals you can buy in 10 ft sections - not in 20. Prices at federal metals are online - you can find the price easily. 

Everyone else in Calgary is *more* then federal metals - at least for small quantities.


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## YYCHM (Feb 22, 2019)

EliseLCR said:


> At this rate I may have to name my firstborn John.. LOL



Your daughter may not appreciate that handle


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## Janger (Feb 22, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Janger
> 
> Any feel for what this package in hot rolled would cost if divvied up between 4 people?
> 
> ...



Yes federal sells in 10’ lengths. Are you saying you want 5’ chunks divided into four 1.25’ lengths? Or you want 5’ lengths?


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## Dabbler (Feb 22, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Your daughter may not appreciate that handle



If a daughter she could be named Joni!  That's how Joni Mitchell got named!

- If we were doing hot rolled structural steel, and we had a bulk order for 5 guys at about 200$ each, there's lots of guys that would give us a discount.

Here's my particular wish list, and why:

2" X 3" square stock:  for making mounts and BXA tool holders (1 1/2 X 3 is better for AXA) I could use 4 feet (based on 5 users, that's a stick)

1/2" X 6 square stock = more jigs and fixtures, 5 feet

2" round, 5 feet:  to supplement the 4140 purchase.

1" round,. 10 feet:   for everything else

-my point - All the variety of thickneses and sizes is less interesting for me from a stocking point of view.  If I neeed 1.4" plate for a specific job, I can buy it by the piece at the time of that job (I always buy double the qty I need, so I have leftovers - bothe for mistakes, ans also for the next job)

Since I'm a little frugal these days, I'd prefer 4' lengths, but I'd settle for 5' to make the purchase.  My tops budget is 200$ however.

-- I also have an aluminum wish list, but that's another issue.


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## Janger (Feb 22, 2019)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 4409View attachment 4410
> How much do you guys want?
> 
> 31,000 pounds of 5140 was about $28,000 USD, less than a dollar a pound in USD. I dragged that back from Michigan this week



What would the shipping be for a load like that? How many of those bundles in the pictures?


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## Janger (Feb 22, 2019)

I agree with you Dabbler purchasing some bigger sizes in hot roll and dividing would be appealing. And I like your sizes.


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## PeterT (Feb 22, 2019)

What do you guys think of the notion of placing a bulk order with OLM or Speedy Metals in the States FOB one of those Montana border depot places & 'somebody' is the dedicated pick up guy? who is compensated fuel. Or maybe rotate among a group of willing mules who have trucks & time. Maybe do it 2x per year or whatever makes sense. I recognize this would take some leg work to prove out logistics & obviously it has to be a net better deal or why bother. 
https://www.onlinemetals.com/

Some advantages (subject to validation)
- a LOT more alloy / size / qty selection than any place in Canada is ever going to be able to offer
- shipping inside the States is pretty cost effective, its the border crossing BS is where we incur added costs
- 10-20% discount sales come up pretty much every couple months. We could aggregate a standing order, wait for the sale & then submit (terms to be agreed upon)
- maybe there is some further discount or financial benefits to having an account with them? Example maybe on $1000 orders they have a line on trucking that reduces shipping? 
- OLM offers 'pickup' but closest is Seattle. That's a long haul.

I just did a spot check on the 1018 to give you a comparison. I didn't figure out $/lb. Need to factor the cost adds: USD/CDN FX + tarriffs? + USA ship cost.... etc

Would a dude showing up at the border with $1000 of metal attract customs scrutiny as though he were a business? I somehow don't thnk they would be sympathetic to a 'club' but even with paperwork. Or does it even make any difference - the value & items dictate the fees?


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## Brian Ross (Feb 22, 2019)

I did look at Online Metals as well. There is certainly a lot more selection - you can get 1045 or 12L14 for a lower price than 1018. The prices look pretty good until you convert to CAD, add shipping and, if applicable, tariffs. I calculate a price of $2.50 to $3.00/lb CAD before shipping and tariffs. If there are no tariffs and someone could arrange for shipping to Montana getting it through customs, it might be a viable option.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 22, 2019)

All good discussion! I proxy my vote and money to @Janger

John, I'm good up to $500, variety in sizes etc . Hot , cold - all good

I have no immediate use for stainless or aluminum though 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Brian Ross said:


> I did look at Online Metals as well. There is certainly a lot more selection - you can get 1045 or 12L14 for a lower price than 1018. The prices look pretty good until you convert to CAD, add shipping and, if applicable, tariffs. I calculate a price of $2.50 to $3.00/lb CAD before shipping and tariffs. If there are no tariffs and someone could arrange for shipping to Montana getting it through customs, it might be a viable option.



I looked on there too.. and oh my goodness! I didn’t realize shipping was sooo much from the States! [emoji54] 
Hence this thread became even more appealing [emoji846] lol


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> If a daughter she could be named Joni! That's how Joni Mitchell got named!
> 
> - If we were doing hot rolled structural steel, and we had a bulk order for 5 guys at about 200$ each, there's lots of guys that would give us a discount.
> 
> ...



Haha, alright. John or Joni it is!

Also, I’d be happy to get in on this. I’m liking the $200 range as well


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## Chicken lights (Feb 22, 2019)

Janger said:


> What would the shipping be for a load like that? How many of those bundles in the pictures?


I won’t know until I see the settlement, likely in the $800-1200 range. 

I picked up 11 small bundles, each roughly 2800 pounds


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## PeterT (Feb 22, 2019)

I think the OLM's of the world would be best suited to alloys that are harder to source here. You guys are talking more conventional steel & larger sticks of generally plain steel. That is probably the only thing we can compete at actually. Price out a stick or brass, bronze or aluminum in Canada & it will bring tears to your eyes. If its not the right application for this particular order that's fine, just something to keep in mind.  I'm kind of on the other side of the coin - no immediate need for slabs of structural, but perpetual need for small quantities of diverse materials.


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## Johnwa (Feb 22, 2019)

A bit off topic but I’m looking for a piece of ⅜ plate 8”x8”, circle would be even better.
John


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Ooh! I think I picked something close to that out of a scrap bin..I’ll find it and measure and let you know


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Johnwa said:


> A bit off topic but I’m looking for a piece of ⅜ plate 8”x8”, circle would be even better.
> John



Could it be a little bigger? It’s a circle


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## Johnwa (Feb 22, 2019)

EliseLCR said:


> Could it be a little bigger? It’s a circle


Absolutely, I can always make it smaller.

John


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## Chicken lights (Feb 22, 2019)

PeterT said:


> What do you guys think of the notion of placing a bulk order with OLM or Speedy Metals in the States FOB one of those Montana border depot places & 'somebody' is the dedicated pick up guy? who is compensated fuel. Or maybe rotate among a group of willing mules who have trucks & time. Maybe do it 2x per year or whatever makes sense. I recognize this would take some leg work to prove out logistics & obviously it has to be a net better deal or why bother.
> https://www.onlinemetals.com/
> 
> Some advantages (subject to validation)
> ...


I’d try giving Big Freight trucking a phone call. They are out of Steinbach, Manitoba. They have vans and flats, as well as I believe the ability to broker out loads. 

Explain the idea, ask them for some LTL rates. The beauty of LTL is it’s not time sensitive, so it’s usually brokered pretty cheaply. 

The last load I brought from Michigan to Ontario I didn’t see any tariff paperwork, I’ve only seen tariff paperwork going into the USA.


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Johnwa said:


> Absolutely, I can always make it smaller.
> 
> John



I found a few options I’ll send you a message [emoji846]


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## Dabbler (Feb 22, 2019)

I used to use Yellow Freight to send orders weighing 450lbs from Alabama.  The cost was less than 150$ CAD.  That was a few years ago, though.  Your best costs are always going to be with a common carrier like Fedex Ground or Yellow.  Hercules is another US common carrier that makes regular deliveries to Calgary, or used to.

The cheapest way to ship steel like that is to have the originator slice it into 4' pieces and put it on a stackable pallet.  If not stackable, then you pay for the entire cube to the top of the truck.  The shipments I used to get were packed as stackable, but were never stacked anyway, it just made the shipping cheaper!


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## historicalarms (Feb 22, 2019)

Elise you probably already know the major steel supliers in
Red Deer ( Red Deer industial Metals owned by Russels & Varsteel) but they only want to sell in bulk 20 ft lengths or full sized flat steel.

     There is a Welding shop called Mclevins Welding on Gaetz Ave that will sell small "cut-offs" from their own shop basically at scrap metal prices. I haven't been there for a couple of years but last time I left with more iron in the back of the wifes SUV than I'll ever tell her I had in it for $40. You basically rummage thru their cut-off racks for what you need, have it cut if needed,load it up yourself and then wonder into the office and tell the guy what you have and he'll say "AWW give me $20...if that's ok with you"...usually I double what he asks for just because there aren't many people left that do business like that anymore.


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

historicalarms said:


> Elise you probably already know the major steel supliers in
> Red Deer ( Red Deer industial Metals owned by Russels & Varsteel) but they only want to sell in bulk 20 ft lengths or full sized flat steel.
> 
> There is a Welding shop called Mclevins Welding on Gaetz Ave that will sell small "cut-offs" from their own shop basically at scrap metal prices. I haven't been there for a couple of years but last time I left with more iron in the back of the wifes SUV than I'll ever tell her I had in it for $40. You basically rummage thru their cut-off racks for what you need, have it cut if needed,load it up yourself and then wonder into the office and tell the guy what you have and he'll say "AWW give me $20...if that's ok with you"...usually I double what he asks for just because there aren't many people left that do business like that anymore.



Oh I did not know they were owned by Russel’s and varsteel actually! Good to know 

That’s great info about Mclevins!! I’ll definitely be checking that one out [emoji16][emoji16] 
Thanks for the great tip!!


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## EliseLCR (Feb 22, 2019)

Perhaps if anyone is looking for odds and ends they could let me know and I’ll keep my eyes open when I check Mclevins out. I do make fairly frequent visits to Calgary, and have family going back and forth often as well. I’d be happy to make some deliveries!


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## YYCHM (Feb 24, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> I think at federal metals you can buy in 10 ft sections - not in 20. Prices at federal metals are online - you can find the price easily.
> 
> Everyone else in Calgary is *more* then federal metals - at least for small quantities.



Well assuming Federal will sell 10' lengths...…….

I came up with $400 tax in from Federal for the following.

1 square 1" by 10' long
3 selections of Flat Bar 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 thick by 6" by 10' long
3 selections of Round 1" 1.5" 2" round 10' long

Some one check my math please, thank you.

I'd be interested in 1/3 or 1/4 of that.  Anyone else interested in splitting that 10' bundle up?


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## BMW Rider (Feb 27, 2019)

I would take a 1/4 of that.


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## YYCHM (Feb 27, 2019)

BMW Rider said:


> I would take a 1/4 of that.


 
I have requested a quote from Federal.  Will see what becomes of that.

Anyone interested in 1/2 of the bundle?


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## Janger (Feb 27, 2019)

Ok I’m in for a quarter and Kevin said he’d take 1/4 too. So I’ll say take half and I’ll square up with Kevin. That sounds like a complete 10’ order. If there are others interested then we would need maybe 4 more people.

Who can get there during business hours to pick up? We could meet at my place for a sawing party if desired. I would NOT  get federal to saw they cut  plus minus 4 inches. I’m near IKEA so not too far from federal and kind of central located.

Are you guys interested in adding 2” square solid to the order? I’d like some of that too.


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## Brian Ross (Feb 27, 2019)

I'm still interested in 5' each of 2" round and square. The rest of the suggested sizes I either have enough or it is cheap enough that I can buy 10' lengths when I need it.


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## YYCHM (Feb 27, 2019)

Are we certain Federal sells 10 lengths?

The 2" squares pushes the bundle price to $582.50 tax in.  I can swing 1/4 of that.

I'm only working 2-3 days per week these days, so I could pickup PROVIDED it fits in my truck.  I have a box in the bed of my super cab.  Looks like it's a good 1100# load to.  I may need help with that.


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## YYCHM (Feb 27, 2019)

Brian Ross said:


> I'm still interested in 5' each of 2" round and square. The rest of the suggested sizes I either have enough or it is cheap enough that I can buy 10' lengths when I need it.



If you want to split the 10' of 2" square with Janger that's fine by me.


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## Brian Ross (Feb 27, 2019)

Works for me.


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## Dabbler (Feb 28, 2019)

Please forgive my Senior's moment.

So I'm a little confused.  I'm no longer sure what the order is, or if I'm still in, or out, or what.


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## Johnwa (Feb 28, 2019)

Something to consider, the hot rolled square that I bought had fairly large radius edges much like square tubing. When squared up you will lose ¼ to ½ inch.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Feb 28, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> Please forgive my Senior's moment.
> 
> So I'm a little confused.  I'm no longer sure what the order is, or if I'm still in, or out, or what.



Hey Dabbler,

The cold rolled idea fell through.

Currently Janger, Kevin D, BMW Rider, Brian Ross, and myself are discussion splitting up the following hot rolled from Federal.

2 section of square 1", 2" by 10' long
3 selections of Flat Bar 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 thick by 6" by 10' long
3 selections of Round 1" 1.5" 2" round 10' long


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 28, 2019)

I'd be interested in some 2" solid @Janger


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## Dabbler (Feb 28, 2019)

I'd be interested in some, is there room for another share, and at what price?


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## Janger (Feb 28, 2019)

Kevin and I want 5’ each. So perhaps that leaves the 3 or 4 to split another 10’


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## YYCHM (Feb 28, 2019)

Janger said:


> Kevin and I want 5’ each. So perhaps that leaves the 3 or 4 to split another 10’



Janger, thank you for clarifying.  We are now back to the base package split between you, Kevin, BMW Rider and myself with you and Kevin splitting the 2" square.

Package pickup may be an issue.  My truck won't handle 10' pieces.  With the tailgate down 10' pieces still stick out another 3'.  I have contacted Federal again, this time via email and asked for a quote for the material and delivery to SE Calgary.  If they don't respond I'll call them.  Maybe PM me your address. If it ends up being delivered it might as well go to the place where it will be cut down to size.

Thanks


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 28, 2019)

Where is the metal to be dropped off? My truck can handle 10ft pieces with no stick out with the gate down.

Does federal offer some discount for this group buy or is it just regular prices?


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## YYCHM (Feb 28, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Where is the metal to be dropped off? My truck can handle 10ft pieces with no stick out with the gate down.
> 
> Does federal offer some discount for this group buy or is it just regular prices?



Janger's place near IKEA.  No discount as far as I know.


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## Brian Ross (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm still interested in 5' each of 2" square and 2" round.


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## Janger (Feb 28, 2019)

PM discussion with the above parties now happening.


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## Janger (Feb 28, 2019)

Anybody else who wants in please post.


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## Janger (Mar 2, 2019)

Here is the final result - same as posted online at federal. the 2" square was quite a bit more per pound than the other material.


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## Janger (Mar 9, 2019)

EliseLCR said:


> Wow that is incredibly generous of you! I can most definitely make arrangements to come pick it up.. so greatly appreciated.. yes I’ll message you to discuss [emoji846]
> Thank you again for this offer
> Elise



Today was the day for Elise. Thanks for all the help everyone. And here are the photos!
Four Johns and Elise!


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 10, 2019)

Congrats Elise 

Well done johns ! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EliseLCR (Mar 28, 2019)

Janger said:


> Today was the day for Elise. Thanks for all the help everyone. And here are the photos!
> Four Johns and Elise!



Oh I’m so glad we have pics from that great day! It was a pleasure to meet each of “the Johns” and I’m really looking forward to future meetups with you all. It was so very kind of you to arrange that for me. The table looks right at home in the shop, and it’s just perfect! 
Thanks for spoiling me with not only the table and tools, but even in that short time with stories and information that can only come by experience and years spent soaking up all that knowledge [emoji846] pure gold to a newbie like myself and I can’t wait for the next visit!


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## Janger (Mar 28, 2019)

Elise post Pictures of the table in your shop!


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## Dabbler (Mar 28, 2019)

Yes, Please!


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## GlenB (Mar 28, 2019)

You would think a company like the metal supermarket would want a group like this that's all across Canada and offer some sort of discount. As hobbiest are we not some what there target


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## Dabbler (Mar 28, 2019)

sorry discounts are not part of  the MSM business strategy...


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 28, 2019)

GlenB said:


> You would think a company like the metal supermarket would want a group like this that's all across Canada and offer some sort of discount. As hobbyist are we not some what there target



Maybe - we are sort of the target - but I am not exactly whom the target is to be honest for Metal Supermarkets - I would think the main target for them is "uninformed public" - same target as people that get pieces of steel from Homedepo / Canadian Tire and to lesser extent from Princess Auto. 

Most of us here stay away from MS as far as possible. I didn't buy anything from them in ... hmm, almost 10 years? My total metal purchase in the same time period easily exceed 10,000 lbs. 

MS prices even after say 20% group discount are not "on track" to be used by most people on this forum - they would need to give us at least 65% discount or more on HR steel.  https://www.federalmetals.ca/we-sell/angle 
2x2 x1/4 angle is 2.48 a foot for 10ft min. That is 24.80 CAD... https://ecommerce.metalsupermarkets.com/ same item is $71.06 CAD Their price for just 1ft of the same is 21.41 - which is tad cheaper then 10ft at local retail location (!!!).

On the other hand for speciality stuff they are "not that bad" - the more expensive the exotic stuff the better the price & the more you buy. For say $1000+ purchase the price of cold rolled 1018 drops to around 2 CAD per lbs - which is only touch more then twice the HR at Federal Metals.... but if you are going that big you can get quotes from big metal suppliers. If you need a brick of copper you can simply purchase it online in the US and get it shipped to the border and forwarded to you for less... much less.

Anyone know whom buys from MS and why? They are growing in operations so someone has to buy from them... quick internet search shows that my gut was correct - they pray on uninformed public - https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/woodworking/woodworking-aa/54166-where-not-to-buy-metal 

Also of note is the fact that as a franchise MS is subject to local pricing - thus it is cheaper in ON then AB as there is much more competition in ON then AB.


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## Johnwa (Mar 28, 2019)

When I was working at one of the Atco power plants we had an account with them. I don’t recall what we bought from them though.


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 28, 2019)

http://wiki.protospace.ca/index.php...eaction=toggle_view_mobile#Metal_Supermarkets

Looks like indeed you can get a group discounts at MS in Calgary - I wonder whatever we could get 10% off at say Federal Metals.

Maybe we are simply too small organisation to have the purchase power needed?


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## Bofobo (Mar 28, 2019)

I buy at MS often as they have what i need now, mind you i stick to cut-offs mostly and found having any length cut was where they really gouge you, buy 3’ cut-off and its $X but buy the (imaginary)required 2.5’ cut from that same piece is now $XX.X
Vs. minimums and what sells most to commercial users dictating available stock. But my experience is just hobby and small business requirements. I picked up a hand full of aluminum and brass for $12 about 18” long was great from my experience


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## trlvn (Mar 28, 2019)

I've chatted with the guys at the local Metal Supermarket a couple of times.  They didn't say exactly, but I think they have relatively high "retail" prices.  Ie if you drop by and purchase one or two pieces, they'll charge you the price on the computer.  BUT, it was clear that they have regular weekly business with lots of places.  I've got to believe that is at competitive prices.  Whether it is a blanket percentage discount or negotiated pricing on certain products, I have no idea.  

For my biggest purchase with them, I could still carry out with one hand.  Easily.  When I asked for a little piece of a specific size of 12L14, they got it in from another store by the end of the day.  The guys have been very good to deal with even though I'm only buying $20 or $40 worth of metal.  If I go to a big steel supply house, I don't think I'd get the time of day.  So the cost per pound isn't the main consideration for me.  I would have completely different expectations if I was buying higher quantities.

Their tag line is "The convenience store for metal".  I think they're not far off that.

Craig


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 28, 2019)

Certainly the big guys would not pay 300% markup or more - they have account with them that is far more competitively priced. 

The problem is that many people are in a spot where they buy far too little to have purchasing power to force MS or anyone else to deal with them while at the same time far too big of a need to buy at retail SM prices.

The experience of group buy of metal at Federal shows that we are simply too small at this time.


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## Dabbler (Mar 28, 2019)

trivn, it thought it was that way as well.  I got 'woken up' when I tried to buy the 4.5', 65 lb bar of 4140 that was sitting there... no cutting needed and they wanted 638$ for it (I just can't forget them saying that).  I turned around and bough a similar piece from Encor metals  -  44 lbs for 100$.  4140 should cost between $2.25 and $3 a pound.

They talked me into buying from them, whining about the convenience and their costs, and found out they were 4-10 times what I would pay elsewhere.  They had a competitor here for 5 years, and their prices became quite reasonable, but now they are stratospheric.  

I've even stopped buying their aluminum cutoffs when I had this experience:  I phoned ahead for some tubing and found it was in stock.  Arrived to find they hadn't stocked it 'in a long time' and I should have 'called ahead'.  On the way out, disappointed, but, hey, mistakes happen, I found a piece of aluminum angle in their cutoffs bin.  -- 1 pound.  I left it on the counter when they quoted me 40$ for it.

They know they have a captive market here.  They take advantage of it in Calgary.


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## trlvn (Mar 29, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> ...found a piece of aluminum angle in their cutoffs bin. -- 1 pound. I left it on the counter when they quoted me 40$ for it.
> 
> They know they have a captive market here. They take advantage of it in Calgary.


Yikes!  YIKES.

Yeah, you are getting a completely different experience at that store than I am here.  There are quite a few metal sources in the greater Toronto area so nobody can get that far out of whack.

Your story about the aluminum is completely the opposite of mine.  Recently, I grabbed an 18 inch piece of AL round bar (5/8'?) from the cutoffs.  At the counter, he first though that was the only thing I wanted and said "just take it".  Another time, I had a few little pieces and he says "Aw, just gimme $15 for our coffee fund".  Sounds like I would have barely gotten change from a $100 bill at your location!

Craig


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 29, 2019)

trlvn said:


> Yikes!  YIKES.
> 
> Yeah, you are getting a completely different experience at that store than I am here.  There are quite a few metal sources in the greater Toronto area so nobody can get that far out of whack.
> 
> ...



This is why I said that when there is competition ----> like in Mississauga store... which was where I incidentally shopped last at MS... prices at MS are more in line with other local suppliers. In Calgary they don't have much competition... Also Mississauga location is probably the original franchise location - remember all MS are franchise stores able to set their own prices and their own policies (to a limit). The fee for MS is low and starting costs are low for a franchise - looking at 300k-400k to start new location. This is at least 3x cheaper than MacDonald's.


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## trlvn (Mar 29, 2019)

This probably explains why there are no prices on their online site.  Calgary can charge whatever they want since it can't be compared to a national price on the web site.

It might be interesting for a few of us to ask for an online quote for the same items.  Just ordering from different areas of the country.

Craig


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## historicalarms (Mar 29, 2019)

I am presently working on a project that started out as a small home built "conversion" to a cartridge loading machine for myself but it has evolved into something that might have a small commercial viability as well ( it works better on my machine than I ever thought it would at the beginning). So last week I started phoning around for some metal quotes to do an "exploratory" batch to begin with. My first call was to Calgary M.S. for 3 ft each of a # of different sizes of CR & Alum. pieces, the quote came in at $198, next call was to a local Red Deer wholesaler, they only sell in 20 ft lengths and for the same material the quote came in at $262 ...over 6 times the quantity for $65 more money. 

    other time the 20 ft minimum length thing has sent me to M.S. when I only want to spend $50 or so on a very few small pieces...but a close to 500% mark-up is starching the envelope a loooonnnngg ways.


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 29, 2019)

trlvn said:


> This probably explains why there are no prices on their online site.  Calgary can charge whatever they want since it can't be compared to a national price on the web site.
> 
> It might be interesting for a few of us to ask for an online quote for the same items.  Just ordering from different areas of the country.
> 
> Craig



You can get online quote by entering different postal code. Compare your quote to say T2A 4Z6. You should see roughly 2x price difference for many items.


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 29, 2019)

historicalarms said:


> I am presently working on a project that started out as a small home built "conversion" to a cartridge loading machine for myself but it has evolved into something that might have a small commercial viability as well ( it works better on my machine than I ever thought it would at the beginning). So last week I started phoning around for some metal quotes to do an "exploratory" batch to begin with. My first call was to Calgary M.S. for 3 ft each of a # of different sizes of CR & Alum. pieces, the quote came in at $198, next call was to a local Red Deer wholesaler, they only sell in 20 ft lengths and for the same material the quote came in at $262 ...over 6 times the quantity for $65 more money.
> 
> other time the 20 ft minimum length thing has sent me to M.S. when I only want to spend $50 or so on a very few small pieces...but a close to 500% mark-up is starching the envelope a loooonnnngg ways.




Usually when I need say 5ft of something I don't mind buying 10ft or even 20ft of it if it means paying say 200% less per ft. If I need it today experience says I will need it in the future. The most metal was laying on the ground was few years. Even if my investment was accruing 10% interest tax free I would be well ahead with larger purchase.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 14, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Anyone know whom buys from MS and why?



My 2 cents worth....

I do have an account with them and buy for a couple of reasons, but not price.

For me, the staff have been great. I've found them friendly, and the girl who works there has a sense of humour. Free coffee is nice too.
The rust on their sheet stock is almost non-existent. I have never had a sheet of stock that needed lots of sanding. For me this is a game changer as I often buy six or seven full sheets of 22 to 16 gauge. As I powder coat parts afterwards, this saves me from sanding and—more importantly—from blasting costs in prep for powder coat. Even materials stored indoors in proximity to overhead doors will rust within a couple of weeks. Because MS purposely stores their sheet goods as far away from overhead doors as possible in the new shop, I see the difference. I asked them about this when they moved in to their new shop two years ago. If you remember their old shop the sheet goods were too close to the overhead doors and rust was a problem. My last powder coat job was $1700 for 500 parts. Blasting would have added $400 onto that, so it's worth it to me. Any time I see a shop with their sheet goods next to the overhead doors I know it will have rust. I learned this the hard way. I have seen sheet arrive at MS and it goes to the back right away.
There is no min. length of cut.
Good selection of off-cuts.
Good selection of non-steel.
Open on Saturdays.
They have an 8 foot shear. My stomp shear is only 36", so I cannot handle a full sheet. Their 8 foot shear can cut my sheet down to 3' strips, 8' long, that my shear can handle. I used to cut my own by plasma, but it isn't worth the time to set up or to finish. Now I just call in my cut widths and pick it up in sizes my shear can handle. Totally worth it...every dime.
They have ordered stuff for me others places were jerks about because it was too small an order.
For larger orders of angle and tubing, I shop with James instead.

MS is pricey but #2 and #7 are my main reasons I go there.


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## Tom Kitta (Apr 15, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> My 2 cents worth....
> 
> I do have an account with them and buy for a couple of reasons, but not price.
> 
> ...



As usual I under estimated other people needs - I never buy sheet metal nor have need to cut it so #2 and #7 don't exist for me. Some rust on items is ok as for welding its nice to clear the mill scale anyways. 

With 5 or 7 sheets per order plus some other steel wouldn't it make sense to try Russel instead or some large supplier that has minimum order - I  know you can get stuck behind a semi for like 1h+ and they may not be super nice... but price difference on a $1000+ order could be significant.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 15, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> As usual I under estimated other people needs - I never buy sheet metal nor have need to cut it so #2 and #7 don't exist for me. Some rust on items is ok as for welding its nice to clear the mill scale anyways.
> 
> With 5 or 7 sheets per order plus some other steel wouldn't it make sense to try Russel instead or some large supplier that has minimum order - I  know you can get stuck behind a semi for like 1h+ and they may not be super nice... but price difference on a $1000+ order could be significant.



Russel and Varsteel have the same issue, so you're right. Get your timing wrong and you're stuck behind a semi for hours. The staff have treated me poorly because I am a hobby guy on multiple occasions. Even Calgary Metal used to be better when they sold metal as well as recycling it, or starting fires, or whatever they do now.

I have had sheet goods so rusted from both places that it takes hours sanding them (plus consumables), or I have to get them sand blasted at an extra cost. Some turns out to be so unusable for my needs and I just set it aside for another project. I spend more time sanding that the cost savings are worth, or have to spend extra money in the prep area at powder coat.

There is another factor at play here...my personality. As I have got older, saving a few dollars by driving an F250 all over town looking for the absolute best deal from a place that may or may not have clean stock and will likely serve me up the snot nose treatment just isn't worth the stress to me. I know I can call MS, get it cut, pick it up and it will look the same as my last batch. The staff will be nice, I know there will be parking at the rear, I can walk through the back door and check out other stuff at the same time. No wondering if my day is shot sucking the fumes of Peterbilt Pete for 4 hours while acting grateful for rusted product and a side order of customer service stink-eye.

Nor will I drive all over town for 2 hours to save 2 cents per litre on gas. I'm not ashamed to say that at some point the higher price of convenience and quality outweighs the bragging rights associated with getting the best deal. At least for me.

Having said this, I am pleased for members who take pride in getting the best price over all else, and glad it makes them so happy. I'm on a retirement income so need to be somewhat careful, but the reduced stress for me is worth the extra dollars.


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2019)

James at steel inc. also has nice clean sheet. But no shear. The electric scissor cutters though are pretty good. Might be another option for you Peter but I get the available now and making it easy. MS is good on that point.


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## Chicken lights (Apr 15, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> Russel and Varsteel have the same issue, so you're right. Get your timing wrong and you're stuck behind a semi for hours. The staff have treated me poorly because I am a hobby guy on multiple occasions. Even Calgary Metal used to be better when they sold metal as well as recycling it, or starting fires, or whatever they do now.
> 
> I have had sheet goods so rusted from both places that it takes hours sanding them (plus consumables), or I have to get them sand blasted at an extra cost. Some turns out to be so unusable for my needs and I just set it aside for another project. I spend more time sanding that the cost savings are worth, or have to spend extra money in the prep area at powder coat.
> 
> ...


One thing some people neglect to look at is that they ARE running a business. 

If I can back up a step I’m not saying I like MS or that I don’t like them. 

Businesses need to make money to keep the doors open. Yes, price gauging is probably going to have the opposite effect. 

But I agree with you. Sometimes convenience knowing what you’re getting is worth a bit more. I typically don’t price shop too much and try to stay loyal to a few shops. 

It does add up though if one place is consistently $5-10 higher than the next place on consistently the same product. Your situation is unique because you’re paying more (possibly) for a superior product. 

Just my two cents


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 15, 2019)

Janger said:


> The electric scissor cutters though are pretty good. Might be another option for you Peter but I get the available now and making it easy.


Yup....I think those cutters are fun. I got a killer deal on a Milwaukee shear but it can only do to 20 gauge I think. Get tool for thinner stock. But I am in love with my stomp shear (even though it is the smallest width made it still does 16 gauge manually)...I love the square edge it gives and there is just something so satisfying about that "thump" it makes.

John, you used to have a circular metal saw didn't you?  How does that work?? I've heard once you get used to them you can get some great cuts.


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## Tom Kitta (Apr 15, 2019)

Yeah I also got a little cutter but never yet tried it on actual metal. I think its dewalt as its yellow. I think 20ga or 18ga or something like that is max. I got it cheap for like 35CAD used so even if I only use it few times its a good deal.

I would also like to find out more about metal cutting circular saws. The problem with a large bandsaw is that the blades which have big teeth cannot cut thin stuff - if you try you loose lots of teeth and the part goes across the garage. Changing blades is a bit of a pita. Blade with lots of teeth will cut anything but larger diameter stuff (like > 2 inch) takes forever - like 5x+ slower then blade with say 6-8 teeth per inch.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 15, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Yeah I also got a little cutter but never yet tried it on actual metal. I think its dewalt as its yellow. I think 20ga or 18ga or something like that is max. I got it cheap for like 35CAD used so even if I only use it few times its a good deal.
> 
> I would also like to find out more about metal cutting circular saws. The problem with a large bandsaw is that the blades which have big teeth cannot cut thin stuff - if you try you loose lots of teeth and the part goes across the garage. Changing blades is a bit of a pita. Blade with lots of teeth will cut anything but larger diameter stuff (like > 2 inch) takes forever - like 5x+ slower then blade with say 6-8 teeth per inch.


Don't think they make them anymore but I have a 20 year old Makita 4" (not 4.5") grinder. I put a 1/16" cutting wheel in it for thin stuff. Some smart machinist person should make a caddy with roller bearings and a spring that allows it to glide across a sheet and cut. Works like a charm.


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## Tom Kitta (Apr 16, 2019)

My dad has an old 4". Main problem is getting disks for them. Yes you could cut straight lines like that but to cut a curve or a circle would be difficult. 

Its like a plasma cutter but with more expensive consumables. You cut straight lines with plasma cutter against a ruler on one side. Cuts very nice and clean - just like a little grinder. Even the CUT50 Chinese models to a great job with all types of sheet metal. On thicker stuff the "50" may be a bit of a stretch. But they will cut not too nicely 1/2" and 1/4" decently. Claimed 3/4" is ugly and as slow as using a grinder - but very ugly and emergency only.

Oh and indeed they hate water in the air line ... a lot.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> Yup....I think those cutters are fun. I got a killer deal on a Milwaukee shear but it can only do to 20 gauge I think. Get tool for thinner stock. But I am in love with my stomp shear (even though it is the smallest width made it still does 16 gauge manually)...I love the square edge it gives and there is just something so satisfying about that "thump" it makes.
> 
> John, you used to have a circular metal saw didn't you?  How does that work?? I've heard once you get used to them you can get some great cuts.



Peter -

I have a Evolution brand metal cutting circular saw. It runs somewhat slower than a standard saw and ships with a carbide tip circular blade with both cutting teeth and odd guide teeth facing backwards. I've used it very successfully on 1/8" and 1/4" and even thicker material but I actually haven't tried it on anything thinner. I checked the manual and it specifies a maximum thickness but not a minimum. It works great generally. It is LOUD and it throws small blue hot chips all over. Leaves a good clean edge. PPE is a must. I wear a hat, ear muffs, googles AND face shield, and gloves. It wasn't very expensive either - I see they are $150 online. They have a 'steel' cutting version as well for double the money. That's still pretty cheap compared to a Fein or Milwaukee.

What gauge are you trying to cut? I could do a test if I have something similar in the shop and report back.

Mine is similar to this one:
https://www.evolutionpowertools.com/us/build/circularsaws/r185ccs/


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> Don't think they make them anymore but I have a 20 year old Makita 4" (not 4.5") grinder. I put a 1/16" cutting wheel in it for thin stuff. Some smart machinist person should make a caddy with roller bearings and a spring that allows it to glide across a sheet and cut. Works like a charm.



A caddy... with roller bearings and a spring. cool idea Peter. what's the spring for?


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## Tom Kitta (Apr 16, 2019)

Janger said:


> A caddy... with roller bearings and a spring. cool idea Peter. what's the spring for?



Probably you want some quick way to stop cutting - press to cut, release to stop. 

I was thinking of evolution for metal. I seen some videos. The reviews are that it is a good hobby style saw - i.e. not for heavy production use. Main problems were rigidity and loosing teeth in expensive saw when things go wrong. People have went far above 1/4" cutting like 2" round or bigger. 

It is also limited to mild steel only.

Blades apparently last quite a long time BUT are expensive - so mistake + lost teeth is a big mistake.


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## Tom O (Apr 16, 2019)

Janger said:


> Peter -
> 
> I have a Evolution brand metal cutting circular saw. It runs somewhat slower than a standard saw and ships with a carbide tip circular blade with both cutting teeth and odd guide teeth facing backwards. I've used it very successfully on 1/8" and 1/4" and even thicker material but I actually haven't tried it on anything thinner. I checked the manual and it specifies a maximum thickness but not a minimum. It works great generally. It is LOUD and it throws small blue hot chips all over. Leaves a good clean edge. PPE is a must. I wear a hat, ear muffs, googles AND face shield, and gloves. It wasn't very expensive either - I see they are $150 online. They have a 'steel' cutting version as well for double the money. That's still pretty cheap compared to a Fein or Milwaukee.
> 
> ...



I have one too I was thinking about making a backstop for it that overhangs the table to collect the chips in a bin.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2019)

I chipped off a tooth but the saw sharpening place fixed it. I think it was $22 for a resharpening. It’s the place across the bay from steel inc. clamping the material to avoid it jumping around I think is crucial as the times I’ve had problems is when the material moved.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 16, 2019)

Janger said:


> A caddy... with roller bearings and a spring. cool idea Peter. what's the spring for?


I think we've all used an angle grinder sideways with a thin cut off wheel. I was just thinking to add a caddy so it could roll, but the wheel would be about 1/4 inch above the material held up by a spring...then you start the grinder, put pressure downwards to contact the wheel to the material and cut. Because the wheels wear fast, you just adjust the pressure downwards as the wheel wears....

Just thinking out loud.


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## historicalarms (Apr 17, 2019)

A very timely conversation for me, I was just enquiring to a buddy of mine yesterday about the alum cutting capabilities of his circular "metal saw". I will have need to cut numerous pieces of 3/4 thick flat bar ( when I find a supplier in Ab. that can supply at a price even a small bit better than MS). I have used my "Taiwanese " bandsaw...works but would like to be a bit quicker...thread the 14" cut-off saw and it was even slower melting its way thru a cut. 

     Buddy says he has never cut alum. with his but it cuts 1/2 cold rolled flat bar slick & fast ( says the cut is smooth as glass) and predicted Alum will be just as good provided it is held firmly in a jig of some kind.
   Any of you fellers here cut alum with yours??


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## DPittman (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm not quite sure what sort of saw you're speaking of but I cut aluminum with my 14" chop saw that has a carbide tooth blade in it and it works real well.  3/4" bar would work well.    However light stuff can be dangerous as it is aggressive.  I'm not sure I would want to cut much thinner than 1/2" with it.  I've cut lighter weight 1/8" aluminum angle iron with my table saw very successfully.


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## Tom Kitta (Apr 17, 2019)

1. Abrasives don't work well on AL b/c it gums it up. 
2. AL is very soft and can be cut easily with most wood equipment. Main thing to watch for is teeth getting gummed up. I used large horizontal BS to cut a lot of small AL thin pieces (window excursions) utilising blade for wood and speed for wood.

You can set your metal band-saw to top speed and get bigger teeth for it - max possible for the material you are cutting. 3/4 bars if you mean square can be cut in multiples. At top speed with larger teeth a cheap Chinese 6x5 band saw should make a cut in like 30 sec, so for square cut say 16 pieces at once and I can see it done in 5 min. 

I don't know how much you need to cut and to what accuracy but AL is much easier to cut then mild steel which is much easier then alloy steel which is much easier then anything hardened which is easier then tool steel.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 17, 2019)

Janger said:


> Peter -
> 
> What gauge are you trying to cut? I could do a test if I have something similar in the shop and report back.
> /



I'm actually really pleased with my tools for sheet, but was just curious about your experience with the cir saw as I never used one on metal. But thanks for the offer.

On a side note I have a old fashioned abrasive cut off saw for steel. I don't use it much anymore, but I oddly love the spark trail and especially the smell it makes in the shop. The wife...not so much.


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## Janger (Apr 17, 2019)

I smell like that right now!


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## historicalarms (Apr 18, 2019)

Thanks guys. I have been cutting the 1/2  x 2.5" alum that I used for proto-typing the piece needed with my "cheap Chinese"  5 x 6 bandsaw" with a bimetal 14 tooth blade and it takes almost 5 min. to cut that. I will certainly be sourcing out a much courser toothed blade.


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## Bofobo (Apr 18, 2019)

historicalarms said:


> Thanks guys. I have been cutting the 1/2  x 2.5" alum that I used for proto-typing the piece needed with my "cheap Chinese"  5 x 6 bandsaw" with a bimetal 14 tooth blade and it takes almost 5 min. to cut that. I will certainly be sourcing out a much courser toothed blade.


All blades canada.


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## Johnwa (Apr 18, 2019)

historicalarms said:


> Thanks guys. I have been cutting the 1/2  x 2.5" alum that I used for proto-typing the piece needed with my "cheap Chinese"  5 x 6 bandsaw" with a bimetal 14 tooth blade and it takes almost 5 min. to cut that. I will certainly be sourcing out a much courser toothed blade.



I’ve got the same setup.  I’ve never timed it but I don’t think it should take anywhere near that long.  You might want to check your speed and pressure adjustment

Ok, I went out a cut a piece of 1”x3/4”.  It took 40 seconds.  I’m running mine on the middle pulleys.


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## Smi_tty (Apr 19, 2020)

Im looking for some steel stock right now - did you guys already make a group purchase?


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## Janger (Apr 19, 2020)

yes.. a year ago! LOL. Sorry.    If you're in Calgary though Steel Inc is good.


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## Smi_tty (Apr 19, 2020)

Jeez i must have missed the 2019 part!!!! Lmao all good.


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## YYCHM (Jul 8, 2020)

Janger said:


> Here is the final result - same as posted online at federal. the 2" square was quite a bit more per pound than the other material.










Anyone try turning the 1" round we got with this group buy?  I finally tried turning some today and it's fighting me to produce a decent finish.  I tried different speeds, different tools and still not great.  When I faced my test piece it was as if the first 1/8" or so was some sort of hard crusty stuff and it didn't turn nicely until you got past that.

Craig


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## Tom Kitta (Jul 8, 2020)

Its hot rolled soft steel - the only way you can get semi decent finish with that stuff is to use some emery cloth. I guess you could also try to partially harden the steel and then turn - I have seen parts that were welded harden considerably (relative to original i.e. maybe 25) and produce nice shiny finish. 

The hard crusty stuff is mill scale.


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## RobinHood (Jul 8, 2020)

I take it you are talking about 1018 hot rolled mild steel?

The outer surface is mill scale; it is a little harder than the main stock material. Usually get a pretty good finish if you have a depth of cut that is 2x the thickness of the mill scale - chips tend to break easier as well. Underneath, 1018 is ”gummy” and has a tendency to “smear”. The way around that I found is deep cuts (50 thou or more per side) and heavy feeds with, of all things, tools that work well for Stainless. Lubrication, or not, seems to make no difference. If you need a very shallow cut to finish to size, use a HSS shear tool. It will give a good to great finish, but the chips won’t break (you’ll have a very fine threaded birds nest). Not really a problem as you are only taking 1/2 to 1 thou DOC.


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## YYCHM (Jul 8, 2020)

I should be past the mill scale by now......






It's defeating the HSS tool I'm trying to test, but that could be a tool geometry issue.  I had to resort to carbide tooling to get this far.  The finish sucks.


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## Tom Kitta (Jul 8, 2020)

There seem to be vibration issues and/ or dull tooling in few areas as well as too fast of a feed for the speed. 

What I though you meant is that the finish is "dull" i.e. non shiny. 

Check that your tool is not rubbing on the piece.


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## Janger (Jul 8, 2020)

Tom is right -tool height check your tool height on center. Check your dead center is still engaged into the work. from the picture it might be backed off a bit? Does the hole match the angle of the dead center? Just using a regular drill bit it will not match. 

What speed are you turning at with the carbide? 4 * 400 / 2 = 800 rpm so at least 800. I would try 1200 or even more. Are you using auto feed? Is the tool bolted in tight and the tool post locked in place?


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## YYCHM (Jul 8, 2020)

Janger said:


> Tom is right -tool height check your tool height on center. Check your dead center is still engaged into the work. from the picture it might be backed off a bit? Does the hole match the angle of the dead center? Just using a regular drill bit it will not match.
> 
> What speed are you turning at with the carbide? 4 * 400 / 2 = 800 rpm so at least 800. I would try 1200 or even more. Are you using auto feed? Is the tool bolted in tight and the tool post locked in place?



Every thing is set up properly, every thing is tight, everything has been re-checked 3 times now.  I'm using the power feed at the slowest feed rate the machine can go.  I have tried 500 RPM and 900 RPM.






This is the best pass so far.  The finish looks dull and grainy as if the metal it self has a grainy structure to it?  As I said before when I faced the piece off the first 1/8" or more had something odd going on with it, almost crusty.

Just wondering if anyone else that got some of this stuff with the group buy experienced this.  Haven't had any issues with the 1.5" round we picked up, but that stuff looks completely different than the 1" round.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jul 8, 2020)

Have you tried using a HSS bit instead? I get a better finish with HSS on run of the mill steel.


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## YYCHM (Jul 8, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Have you tried using a HSS bit instead? I get a better finish with HSS on run of the mill steel.



This stuff just defeats a HSS tool or so I think.  The whole reason I'm playing with this piece of steel was to check the performance of a HSS tool I ground from scratch.  I had to abandon that exercise and switch to carbide to get this far.


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## Tom Kitta (Jul 8, 2020)

Your dull grey finish is standard stuff when dealing with hot rolled stuff - your 2nd picture looks normal. You may get maybe a bit better finish if you up the speed a lot - i.e. for under 1" at least 1500 rpm. With soft hot rolled with say 7/8 you may even go 2000rpm or more depending on carbide.


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## Dabbler (Jul 8, 2020)

I'd even try 200 rpm for a 1" piece.  Now that the scale is off you can go back to HSS.  The scale is pretty hard, but the steel is soft underneath.  The softness leads to the pits and grains.  As Rudy says, using a diamond ground carbide intended for gummy stainless (like 304, your finish will improve a lot. 

If you use HSS grind the bit as for stainless, that is a much sharper point, in the 8-9 degree angle, with at least 7 degree back rake.

But your very best finish on these soft gummy materials is to use a shear tool.  I don't have one yet, but it will leave a very nice finish.

Xynudu on Youtube shows how to use a shear tool on the same kind of steel:






if you prefer Mr Pete222, here's another:


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## YYCHM (Jul 9, 2020)

Ok.....  180 RPM and HSS produced an acceptable (actually quite decent) finish with a 0.015 pass.


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