# trlvn's terrific travelling RF30 tale



## trlvn (Nov 28, 2021)

We join the story slightly past the beginning.  There is a long and boring saga between my purchase of this mill in August 2019* and relocating it to my basement (November 2021).  Suffice to say it involved renovations, pandemics, illness, surgery, chemo, recovery and more renovations to get to the present situation.  Which is that I need to disassemble the machine into pieces that my son and I can safely transport down the basement stairs. 

Since the machine is almost 20 years old, this is also a good opportunity to clean and lube all the hard-to-get-at places.  The powerfeed, DRO, X and Y tables and motor have all been removed and deposited in the basement.  No pics--all rather straightforward stuff.  The previously linked thread explained a little detour driven by the desire to remove the lower portion of the belt cover to enable a safe lift of the head and column off the base.  Here is how I lifted it:






@Canadium your hoist is a joy to use.  Smooth as silk going both up and down.  Dead-nuts simple to pick up the head and column this way.

Since the head is not easy grab securely, it occurred to me that a temporary base under the column might make it possible to lash the unit securely to my 2-wheel cart. Here I've just bolted it onto the bottom of the column before setting the assembly down on the floor.






I haven't done this yet but if it turns out to be dicey, I can always simply lift the head off the column and take them separately.

Since the engine hoist was already there, I also used it to pick the base off the stand:






You can also see the head & column sitting out of the way on the temporary base.

So the next steps are that the head & column, base, and stand all need to get down the stairs.  The engine hoist will also be disassembled and go down to help with putting the mill back together.  I need the sun to melt today's snow and my son to provide some muscle.

Stay tuned for the next instalment in Trlvn_'s Terrific Travelling RF30 Tale_ coming to a web forum near you...

Craig  

* I was able to use the mill in the garage by stringing an extension cord from my clothes dryer outlet.  Inconvenient but possible.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 28, 2021)

My daughter and i did a similar move down the basement stairs, we put2 2x10 planks on the stairs and then used the winch on my polaris utv to lower the pieces down the stairs. Go slow and stay safe.


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## Susquatch (Nov 28, 2021)

Very cool! Without a photo, it wasn't entirely obvious to me why you didn't want to put a chain down the column. But it's obvious to me now! Thats a MUCH BETTER spot to lift at! Straps are just as good as chain for such a light load. 

Great job so far!


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## Dusty (Nov 28, 2021)

@trlvn, sorry to learn of you surgery nasty stuff.

What became of the mill table and how did you manage that?  Must go back and review your beginning saga.

Which Busy Bee model is your mill/drill?

Please keep your photos coming more specifically when you tear down, clean and inspect the head.


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## trlvn (Nov 28, 2021)

@Dusty The mill table is pretty easy to remove.  The table was heavy--about the max I'm willing to carry down the stairs by myself.  It is presently resting on a Workmate in basement.   The table has a couple of peck marks that don't bother me.  The ways look to be in very good shape.  I've wiped off a bunch of dirty oil and I'll give them another cleaning before I lubricate and reassemble.  The top side of the table should just need a good stoning and oil.

My machine has no good system for ensuring the table ways get fresh oil regularily.  If someone knows how to incorporate a simple but more effective oiling process, I'd be very interested.  Otherwise, I think I need to pull the tables off from time to time (annually, biannually?) and repeat the clean-and-lube process.  

At this point, I don't plan to tear down the head.  I don't see any reason to mess with it.  I'll clean what I can get to and make sure there is lots of fresh oil afterward.  AFAICT, this machine has had very few hours of use over its life.

Craig


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## Dusty (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> @Dusty The mill table is pretty easy to remove.  The table was heavy--about the max I'm willing to carry down the stairs by myself.  It is presently resting on a Workmate in basement.   The table has a couple of peck marks that don't bother me.  The ways look to be in very good shape.  I've wiped off a bunch of dirty oil and I'll give them another cleaning before I lubricate and reassemble.  The top side of the table should just need a good stoning and oil.
> 
> My machine has no good system for ensuring the table ways get fresh oil regularily.  If someone knows how to incorporate a simple but more effective oiling process, I'd be very interested.  Otherwise, I think I need to pull the tables off from time to time (annually, biannually?) and repeat the clean-and-lube process.
> 
> ...



@trlvn, so you believe the grease on the spindle will be just fine for a 20 year old machine?.


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## YYCHM (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> My machine has no good system for ensuring the table ways get fresh oil regularily.  If someone knows how to incorporate a simple but more effective oiling process, I'd be very interested.  Otherwise, I think I need to pull the tables off from time to time (annually, biannually?) and repeat the clean-and-lube process.











						RF30 Basement Install
					

The wider piece would probably work.  The narrow piece is too narrow.




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## trlvn (Nov 28, 2021)

Dusty said:


> @trlvn, so you believe the grease on the spindle will be just fine for a 20 year old machine?.


Sorry, what grease?  AFAIK, the bearings are sealed and permanently lubricated.  The instructions I've seen say the quill just needs a regular coating of oil (ISO 68 or equivalent).

Craig


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## YYCHM (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Sorry, what grease?  AFAIK, the bearings are sealed and permanently lubricated.  The instructions I've seen say the quill just needs a regular coating of oil (ISO 68 or equivalent).
> 
> Craig



Mine to.


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## YYCHM (Nov 28, 2021)

What's the plan for getting it down the stairs?  I bumped my head down the stairs on a two wheel cart.  My son physically picked up the column and base and carried them down down the stairs  He and a friend placed the base on my bench, mounted the column and mounted the head for me.


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## trlvn (Nov 28, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> RF30 Basement Install
> 
> 
> The wider piece would probably work.  The narrow piece is too narrow.
> ...


I'll think on this.  If I understand correctly, you used a good-sized Bridgeport (and Rudy's experience) to drill the necessary intersecting holes.  I don't have an obvious source for either of those ingredients!

I don't know if the poor little table on my Delta drill press would be happy supporting the mill/drill's table for work like this!

Craig


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## Dusty (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Sorry, what grease?  AFAIK, the bearings are sealed and permanently lubricated.  The instructions I've seen say the quill just needs a regular coating of oil (ISO 68 or equivalent).
> 
> Craig



I watched a chap tear down an older mill head and the bearings weren't sealed that's why I asked.


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## trlvn (Nov 28, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> What's the plan for getting it down the stairs?  I bumped my head down the stairs on a two wheel cart.  My son physically picked up the column and base and carried them down down the stairs  He and a friend placed the base on my bench, mounted the column and mounted the head for me.


Are you saying the column and base went down as ONE trip?!?  Is your son on the front line of pro football team?  

As I said earlier, two of us are going to use a 2-wheel cart to move the head plus column and then the base.  Even my stand is a heavy bugger--thick-wall steel tube construction.  From the extra holes in the top, it may have been used for something else long ago.  I'm sure it could be used in the circus for elephant tricks!

Craig


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## YYCHM (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Are you saying the column and base went down as ONE trip?!?  Is your son on the front line of pro football team?



Two trips.  After taking the head down the stairs on my 2 wheel, I was shy about taking the column and base down the same way by myself.  But ya, I was surprised when he just carried the base down like he did.


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## YYCHM (Nov 28, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I'll think on this.  If I understand correctly, you used a good-sized Bridgeport (and Rudy's experience) to drill the necessary intersecting holes.  I don't have an obvious source for either of those ingredients!
> 
> I don't know if the poor little table on my Delta drill press would be happy supporting the mill/drill's table for work like this!
> 
> Craig



Ya, I hear you.  Kind of hard to use your mill to drill the holes when the table isn't mounted.  @RobinHood 's setups were rather interesting to say the least.  Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of that.


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## Susquatch (Nov 29, 2021)

trlvn said:


> My machine has no good system for ensuring the table ways get fresh oil regularily. If someone knows how to incorporate a simple but more effective oiling process, I'd be very interested. Otherwise, I think I need to pull the tables off from time to time (annually, biannually?) and repeat the clean-and-lube process.



Can't you just move the table to all four extremes and oil the ways manually? Even if you miss a tiny bit in the middle, the oil would get there doing regular work. 

In the absence of video's like those attached, and availability of another mill or drill press, I wouldn't hesitate to take a hand drill to it and drill some strategic oil galleries that get tapped and plugged with little lock screws and/or oil balls. It's likely that the path won't be square to the table anyway, and it's not like the job requires any precision at all.


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## trlvn (Nov 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Can't you just move the table to all four extremes and oil the ways manually? Even if you miss a tiny bit in the middle, the oil would get there doing regular work.


[/QUOTE]
Yup, and that is what I have done.  But it is not getting any easier on my knees.  Right now I've got a baby food jar of oil and a solder brush that I use to 'paint' on some oil.  It is possible that I haven't done this _every_ time before using the mill.  



Susquatch said:


> > In the absence of video's like those attached, and availability of another mill or drill press, I wouldn't hesitate to take a hand drill to it and drill some strategic oil galleries that get tapped and plugged with little lock screws and/or oil balls. It's likely that the path won't be square to the table anyway, and it's not like the job requires any precision at all.
> 
> 
> I haven't tried to plan out the locations--maybe I'm making it out to be more challenging than it really is.  OTOH, I haven't got my head around the gib-sides.  Craig and Rudy apparently drill through one of the gibs.  I guess that means you have to know pretty exactly where the gib is going to be positioned when the machine is adjusted for use.  Otherwise, it seems to me that the gib could cut off the oil flow quite effectively?
> ...


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## YYCHM (Nov 29, 2021)

Zerk fittings and a modified grease gun filled with way oil.


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## historicalarms (Nov 29, 2021)

The spindle bearings on my mill-drill were not "sealed" . the bottom bearing has a seal on the bottom only, inside the spindle & top bearing are wide open to the elements. I did a tear-down two yrs ago and re-greased them with wheel bearing grease from an expensive tube of race car grease my brother left laying around at an opportune time.
     The 20 or more yr old grease was still doing its job, bearings weren't running hot & still looked "as new" upon inspection but the machine  now has a lot more volume of good grease in the bearings and when re-assembly was done, the bearing back-lash was cut in half so spindle run out was also cut in half ( less than a thou detectable D I movement on the spindle with column locked). With column unlocked as if in a drill usage, runout is in the 4 thou range (column clearance for ease of spindle movement).


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## YYCHM (Nov 29, 2021)

@David_R8 are your spindled bearings sealed or open and grease packed?


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## David_R8 (Nov 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> @David_R8 are your spindled bearings sealed or open and grease packed?


Mine have dust seals but they are definitely not "sealed" as I've had them heat up and barf out grease everywhere. 
I have Nachi true sealed bearings sitting for an upgrade when I decide to tear it apart.


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## YYCHM (Nov 30, 2021)

Where are you at with moving the machine into the basement?


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## trlvn (Nov 30, 2021)

The weather is still crap and so I've dealt with a couple of other little matters.  Supposed to be partly cloudy and 4C tomorrow so hopefully I can get some pieces to the basement without making a mess.

Craig


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## Janger (Dec 1, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Zerk fittings and a modified grease gun filled with way oil.


One shot oiler. Eh maybe this one.









						49.95C$ 7% OFF|CNC Milling Machine Part Manual Hand Pump Oiler (one Shot Lube) Y 8 6mm For Bridgeport Mill Tool|Milling Machine|   - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com


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## Susquatch (Dec 1, 2021)

Janger said:


> One shot oiler. Eh maybe this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That looks just like the one on my Hartford! I love it!


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## trlvn (Dec 1, 2021)

Janger said:


> One shot oiler. Eh maybe this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is crazy cheap!  I never even considered a one-shot oiler as I assumed it would be way too costly.  It is not like I need another project to add to the list, but that would be a cool upgrade.  

You don't have a link for an oil distribution manifold, too, do you?

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 1, 2021)

trlvn said:


> You don't have a link for an oil distribution manifold, too, do you?



Yup, that's why I'm avoiding it.


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## Susquatch (Dec 1, 2021)

trlvn said:


> You don't have a link for an oil distribution manifold, too, do you?




Unless I am totally out to lunch (which is probably more than likely), it ought to be easy to make one. The biggest problem will be the equalizers.


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## combustable herbage (Dec 1, 2021)

HI Craig like the setup for the disassembly you have got this, I am curious of why you didn't separate the column and the head.
I know you will be safe and have it down there in no time and then on to re assembly and then a nice winter of milling!


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## trlvn (Dec 1, 2021)

In today's episode, heavy stuff got moved!

The weather cleared a bit today, the snow melted and my son provided some assistance toting pieces down the stairs.  A note about the base.  I mentioned before that it is pretty overbuilt.  I'm not sure which is heavier--it or the base casting!  






While the machine was in the garage, it was exceedingly difficult to slide it across the pretty-smooth concrete pad.  In the basement, I have to assemble it in an area free of overhead obstructions and then slide it into its "forever home".  Before moving it, I cleaned up the steel pads on the end of the legs and filed them to make sure there were no sharp edges to dig in and catch.

I've taken a chance and applied some stick-on furniture slides.  I'm afraid that they won't stand up to the weight of the machine when fully assembled.  They do make it easy to slide the table and base around, however.

In a perfect world, I would have sprayed some paint on the base.  Alas, the world is what it is and there is no way I'm going to spray paint next to the furnace and gas water heater.

My son and I also brought the head down from the garage.  Here it is strapped to my 2-wheeler:





This worked really well.  The load was reasonably well balanced on the cart and with me on the handles and him below, it was nice and easy to bring it down one step at a time.

Here is the head unstrapped:





The next step is to fix the stripped bolt hole in the casting where the column bolts on.  From a quick look, Bubba needed to use a longer bolt!  The previous owner mounted the DRO using these bolts and passing through a piece of 1/4" steel--which reduced the bolt engagement.  The casting is nearly 1 inch thick in this spot and I think there is lots of meat left to hold a longer bolt.  Certainly looks like the hole is threaded all the way through.  Hopefully I can get a tap to clean up the damaged section and then determine how many good threads are left.  

After that, I need to move @Canadium 's engine hoist down to the basement and put the head back on.  

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 1, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> HI Craig like the setup for the disassembly you have got this, I am curious of why you didn't separate the column and the head.
> I know you will be safe and have it down there in no time and then on to re assembly and then a nice winter of milling!


I felt the head alone was going to be pretty awkward to handle.  Between the DRO and the magnetic starter, there are a couple of rather fragile bits.  I think it turned out pretty well leaving it attached to the column.  With the temporary base, it was very simple to strap it to my 2-wheeler.  

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 1, 2021)

Well done!  Applause all around.


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## Susquatch (Dec 1, 2021)

trlvn said:


> In today's episode, heavy stuff got moved!



Wow, just wow..... That is one very solid machine. Makes my huge mill drill look chinsy. 

Great job!

On the bolt, if it turns out that you don't have enough length, drill it out a wee bit and install a 2 or 3 or 4 helicoils stacked to fill the length of the hole. 

Is your son for hire?


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## David_R8 (Dec 1, 2021)

Nice work.
Brings back memories of dismantling mine in the bed  of my truck and  manhandling it out.
My stand is equally heavy; I can barely lift it as it's made of .25 wall 1.5" square tubing.


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## YYCHM (Dec 1, 2021)

Is the upright and the base all one casting?  






On my machine the upright is part of the column.


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## combustable herbage (Dec 1, 2021)

Great job Craig!!   I always say you can either have excuses or results but not both and today sir you got results.


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## trlvn (Dec 1, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Is the upright and the base all one casting?


No, there are 4 bolts holding the 2 pieces together.  A person _might_ be able to get in through the access panel at the back and unbolt them.  Maybe.  I didn't bother to try.

The shape of your castings is rather different from mine.  The section between the column and the base is quite different, as you mentioned.  Mine also has a wide tab along each side of the base where it bolts down to the stand.  You must need quite long bolts to secure the base to the stand.  Your pictures match up more closely with those on Rick Sparber's site than mine do.  I hadn't realized that there was this amount of variety in "RF-30" machines.  I thought the differences where more cosmetic, like different handwheels or whatnot.

Maybe this accounts for the different weight estimates?  My manual says the net weight, excluding stand, is 270 kg which is just short of 600 pounds.  Sparber weighted all his components and came up to 500 pounds.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 1, 2021)

trlvn said:


> While the machine was in the garage, it was exceedingly difficult to slide it across the pretty-smooth concrete pad.  In the basement, I have to assemble it in an area free of overhead obstructions and then slide it into its "forever home".  Before moving it, I cleaned up the steel pads on the end of the legs and filed them to make sure there were no sharp edges to dig in and catch.
> 
> I've taken a chance and applied some stick-on furniture slides.  I'm afraid that they won't stand up to the weight of the machine when fully assembled.  They do make it easy to slide the table and base around, however.



Did you give consideration to putting casters on the stand?  Would allow you to move it around if need be.


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## Brent H (Dec 1, 2021)

@trlvn : great job Craig!   Been a little busy but following your progress!! Way to go!!


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 2, 2021)

Good job on the long awaited move. My machine is like YYCHM's with the column and upright being together, Mine is a LC-30A not a RF30, came from a different part of the empire i guess.


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Did you give consideration to putting casters on the stand?  Would allow you to move it around if need be.


I'm really hoping that I won't need to move it very often or very far.  Basically just need to slide it a few inches from time to time.  Also, casters would raise the height of the machine even more.

At one point, I thought about replacing the stand with the cabinet that Busybee currently sells ($300).  The main reason would be to get more usable storage space under the machine.  I decided that it wasn't a big-enough upgrade to justify the cost.  

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Good job on the long awaited move. My machine is like YYCHM's with the column and upright being together, Mine is a LC-30A not a RF30, came from a different part of the empire i guess.


The way I thought I understood it was that Rong Fu developed the original design and then a bunch of foundries/factories over there basically copied the machine.  Apparently some are very similar and others less.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

On the stripped bolt problem, the plot took a minor twist.

First, there are undamaged threads in the lower section of the problem hole.  Just about 1/2 inch seems to be in good shape.  Normally, I would think that is fine--a 7/16-14 nut has less than 1/2 inch of thread, after all.  But, ALL the holes are quite a sloppy fit for the bolts.  The following is a link to a very short movie (on Microsoft OneDrive) showing what I mean:









						loose bolts.mov
					

MOV File



					1drv.ms
				




I'm going to replace the bolts with longer ones but they don't seem to be the problem.  At most, they seem to be only 7-8 thous under the nominal size (0.4375).  Are Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts made to a tighter standard?

Drilling out all 4 to install helicoils seems like overkill.  Changing to 1/2 inch socket head cap screws would be less expensive and at least as good a physical connection.  Since there is 1 inch of casting to thread into, I would think 1/2-13 (UNC) would have lots of holding power.  Sound right?

Incidentally, Bubba used flat washers but the parts diagram calls out spring washers.  If I go with socket head cap screws, I would lean towards flat washers to spread the load slightly.  Any thoughts on this?

Just to be clear, this is the connection where I'll be adding any shims to tram the head.  I have never trammed this machine as it was always intended to move it to the basement.  However, there were no obvious problems when I was using it in the garage.  Even though only 3 of the 4 bolts were holding the head on!

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

I don't normally find any difference in class fit between regular, grade 5, and grade 8. However, you can buy Bolts with a higher class fit. If you have a lathe, you can also make Bolts with a perfect fit. Nobody says they need to meet regular standards.

My advice is different. If I were you, I would drill out the thread and put helicoils in. This fix is good as new, uses the original bolt, and whoever gets your mill when you are gone will never know the difference.

Coned (Belleville spring) washers are designed to impart a prevailing torque even when the part connection shrinks a bit. This can be important in prestressed connections that move a lot. I could see that being the case on a mill column that is working hard and chattering away. If that was the original design, I would not replace them with flat washers without doing a design analysis first. Keep in mind that spring washers are very seldom used to accommodate the bolt strength, they are used to accommodate the part strength and movement. In other words, switching to a higher grade bolt will not help and may actually hurt. I say all this with ZERO experience with your mill, but a crap load of experience with fasteners.

Coned washers are readily available so why mess with it.


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## John Conroy (Dec 2, 2021)

If you are going up to 1/2" bolts it would be better to use 1/2-20 fine thread as the correct drill size is .453. For 1/2-13 the drill size is .422 and the holes won't completely clean  out the old threads.


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I don't normally find any difference in class fit between regular, grade 5, and grade 8. However, you can buy Bolts with a higher class fit. If you have a lathe, you can also make Bolts with a perfect fit. Nobody says they need to meet regular standards.
> 
> My advice is different. If I were you, I would drill out the thread and put helicoils in. This fix is good as new, uses the original bolt, and whoever gets your mill when you are gone will never know the difference.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I was interpreting "spring washer" as a split washer or lock washer.  IE to prevent the bolt backing out due to vibration.  There is not enough detail in the diagram to see exactly what they mean.  It's a 'Chinglish' document so there is a good chance they haven't used a precise technical term.  

On your mill/drill, what sort of washer, if any, is on the bolts that connect the column to the base?

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

John Conroy said:


> If you are going up to 1/2" bolts it would be better to use 1/2-20 fine thread as the correct drill size is .453. For 1/2-13 the drill size is .422 and the holes won't completely clean  out the old threads.


Thank you -- excellent point!

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Drilling out all 4 to install helicoils seems like overkill. Changing to 1/2 inch socket head cap screws would be less expensive and at least as good a physical connection.



I watched your video. It doesn't scare me at all. Bolted connections are designed to stretch a bit and threads have a 60 degree conical profile to allow that to happen. Your movement looks typical of what I would expect to see in a nice clean setup. 

I certainly don't think you need new bigger Bolts. Just fix the one damaged hole with a couple of helicoils and be done with it. 

One more thought. What you might think is loose, might actually be intentional. Especially when you know the oem connection used spring washers....... The whole assembly might be designed to absorb vibrations (cyclic stress & strain) without moving and without failing in fatigue.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Hmm, I was interpreting "spring washer" as a split washer or lock washer



Excellent point. Which is it?


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## historicalarms (Dec 2, 2021)

Congrats on the move Trivn ....but I must make a point that concerns me to no end....your bench.

    Personally I think your leg stance is so narrow as to be dangerous with a big mill-drill.  On a mill-drill, head rotation is possible in a 360 deg circle and you might not plan on ever rotating 180 deg's  but if you do with that leg stance the possibility of the heavy head overhang counterbalancing the whole machine into a crash to the ground. The warehouse foreman where i bought mine was very emphatic for me to make my bench stance wider than the circumference of head circle and BOLT THE BASE DOWN...his words " every machine we get back for repair has fell over sideways from overbalancing".

    Make your floor contact wider than the head swivel radi.. In your case a simple fix with a 1/2" x2" flat bar longer than any sideways overbalance  possibility welded to the feet will do the trick.


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 2, 2021)

_@trlvn  Yup, and that is what I have done.  *But it is not getting any easier on my knees.  Right now I've got a baby food jar of oil and a solder brush that I use to 'paint' on some oil. * _

LOL. The way this is written makes you sound like the Tin Man, oiling up your joints to make it through the day.

No disrespect intended of course, as I am right there with you. Personally I am thinking of putting zerks in my own knees.


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I watched your video. It doesn't scare me at all. Bolted connections are designed to stretch a bit and threads have a 60 degree conical profile to allow that to happen. Your movement looks typical of what I would expect to see in a nice clean setup.
> 
> I certainly don't think you need new bigger Bolts. Just fix the one damaged hole with a couple of helicoils and be done with it.
> 
> One more thought. What you might think is loose, might actually be intentional. Especially when you know the oem connection used spring washers....... The whole assembly might be designed to absorb vibrations (cyclic stress & strain) without moving and without failing in fatigue.


Interesting!  Being that it was made in China, I was leaning towards sloppy manufacturing rather than rational and intentional design.  As I noted, it seemed to work OK with just 3 solidly connected bolts.  BTW, the stripped one is to the operator side.  All the static load would be on the fasteners on the other side.  Dynamic stresses would basically have to overcome the weight of the head before putting much load on the front-side fasteners, no?

OTOH, I've checked the column connection and the holes in it are already big enough to accept 1/2" bolts.  I was concerned about space but, checking now, I think there is room for a hex bolt head and wrench.  I've got the 1/2-20 tap (4 of them, actually--gotta love auction box lots) and the tap drill.  I'm leaning towards up-sizing the fasteners.  

I have a little bit of trepidation because either with a helicoil or upsizing to 1/2-20, I'm going to have to drill the holes freehand.  (29/64" in either case.)  I'm sure it will go fine (famous last words) but I really have one shot at this.  If something crazy goes wrong, say like a casting flaw, then it is going to be much harder to fix.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Excellent point. Which is it?


That's why I asked you about what washers are on your machine!  Bubba has already been messing with mine so I don't know how it came from the factory and the poor docs I have are unclear.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Congrats on the move Trivn ....but I must make a point that concerns me to no end....your bench.
> 
> Personally I think your leg stance is so narrow as to be dangerous with a big mill-drill.  On a mill-drill, head rotation is possible in a 360 deg circle and you might not plan on ever rotating 180 deg's  but if you do with that leg stance the possibility of the heavy head overhang counterbalancing the whole machine into a crash to the ground. The warehouse foreman where i bought mine was very emphatic for me to make my bench stance wider than the circumference of head circle and BOLT THE BASE DOWN...his words " every machine we get back for repair has fell over sideways from overbalancing".
> 
> Make your floor contact wider than the head swivel radi.. In your case a simple fix with a 1/2" x2" flat bar longer than any sideways overbalance  possibility welded to the feet will do the trick.


I think maybe my picture is making it look worse than it is.  The legs splay a bit and the feet cover about 22.5 inches left to right.  The spindle is about 10 inches from the column, centre to centre.  So the spindle centre is just inside the feet.  I have never rotated the head straight back.  In that case, the spindle would be beyond the feet.  Whether the mass of the stand and base would be enough to keep it upright, I don't know.  I'll certainly be careful if I ever find a need to do that.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> That's why I asked you about what washers are on your machine!  Bubba has already been messing with mine so I don't know how it came from the factory and the poor docs I have are unclear.
> 
> Craig


Sorry Craig, I didn't realize that you were asking me. Mine is certainly very similar. I will look when I get back to the shop.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I think maybe my picture is making it look worse than it is.  The legs splay a bit and the feet cover about 22.5 inches left to right.  The spindle is about 10 inches from the column, centre to centre.  So the spindle centre is just inside the feet.  I have never rotated the head straight back.  In that case, the spindle would be beyond the feet.  Whether the mass of the stand and base would be enough to keep it upright, I don't know.  I'll certainly be careful if I ever find a need to do that.
> Craig



IMHO, I think you and @historicalarms are both thinking heads when the issue is really probably something huge on the table. Farmers like me put humungous things up there to work on. I have been postponing a job on a Ripper tooth that I know for sure weighs more than that head. Two big men can barely move it a few inches. I had planned to put the bolted end up on the side of my mill table with an engine hoist and then slide it to center. But after reading all this, I will probably try to figure out how to center load it instead.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Interesting! Being that it was made in China, I was leaning towards sloppy manufacturing rather than rational and intentional design. As I noted, it seemed to work OK with just 3 solidly connected bolts. BTW, the stripped one is to the operator side. All the static load would be on the fasteners on the other side. Dynamic stresses would basically have to overcome the weight of the head before putting much load on the front-side fasteners, no?



Not necessarily. If you stop thinking about overload stress failure and think instead about fatigue from cycles, an excessively loose front fastener can fail. Since you don't have the original failed bolt, you will never know for sure, but it is possible to check for other evidence. A stress analysis would require modelling and strain gages - which are more work than its worth. If it were me, I'd just duplicate whatever the factory did.

A few comments. I bet that head weight can be easily lifted by the quill crank. How much down force was being applied by the previous owner?

Cyclic stress and strain does not need to lift the head to fail the bolt. A front bolt could fail from fatigue without ever being overloaded.

I have no idea what the design limits were. Nor could anyone but the designers themselves. I am only pointing out that the whole situation might not be so simple.

I'll give you a classic example. Have you ever seen a failed wheel stud on a car or truck? They happen all the time. Most people assume that some gorilla over torqued the bolt and it snapped a few days later or maybe going around a corner. This is NEVER the case. It is ALWAYS the result of undertightening. The nut or bolt will always strip before it breaks from overtorquing. And it will almost always snap in fatigue failure if it is under torqued.

Anyway, it is not very hard for me to imagine an excessively loose bolt failing on a mill that does so much bouncing as it cuts. This was actually one of my hates about my mill drill. It was never very solid or rigid compared to either of my big knee mills. I've had that thing bouncing around like a male rabbit way more often than I should have.

So before everyone piles on, be gentle - I'm old. These are all just pure conjecture on my part noodling the possibilities on something I have not seen in person.

My best guess is still the gorilla on the wrench overtorquing a steel fastener in a cast-iron hole. But that is just my best guess. 

In all reality, I'm still on the page of installing a few helicoils only in the failed location, use original size and grade of fasteners, and torque to specifications - no more no less. Drilling, tapping, and installing helicoils is pretty easy to do with hand tools because everything follows the existing hole and the existing threads.

I'll head out to the barn shortly and I'll let you know what is on mine. I'll also do a little noodling on the what-ifs while I'm looking at it.

FWIW, I've learned that @RobinHood is pretty good at forensic failure analysis. If I were you, I'd be interested in his opinion on this one too.


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm wondering if those bolts were originally metric? My LC-30 has metric fasteners.


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## Tom O (Dec 2, 2021)

It would be interesting to see the measurements of the bolts using the wire system just to see what they measure have you tried a tap in the hole to see how it fits?
Busy Bee’s base does have the little cabinet in it but I seldom use it other than storing the toolbox it came with.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

trlvn said:


> On your mill/drill, what sort of washer, if any, is on the bolts that connect the column to the base?



Mine has no washers at all. The Bolts on mine are all Grade 8 1/2-13 x 1.5" Socket Head Machine Screws. They look original. I have no idea at all why they were used in this application. Grade 8 Bolts into regular old cast iron doesn't make sense to me. Sorry about that..... Maybe a previous owner upgraded the bolts thinking stronger is always better???? Or maybe the clone boys wherever they are thought that too?

On close inspection, and assuming yours is similar enough to mine, I am still solidly on my original guess and MUCH LESS inclined to think yours failed by fatigue. I simply think yours was over torqued by a gorilla and the threads in the base were pulled out. Normally, the bolt would strip first, but a grade 8 bolt (if that's what yours had too) would strip the casting long before the bolt.

If I were you, I would not get too worried about hand drilling and tapping for a heli-coil. Just do it and be as careful as you can. You have the post to help you see that the drill is at the right angle and you have a hole that is already there to follow too.

Proper torque for a 1/2-13 fastener into cast iron is a numbers game that I have forgotten how to do long ago. As I recall, the strain of both halves should be balanced against each other and the set point selected according to weakest material. To do it right, it would have to done in a lab because cast iron varies considerably. The torque has to be derated to factor in the precise strength of the particular grade of cast iron. I'd love to know what your manual says it should be so I can record that for mine. In the absense of that, I'd probably go with half the torque (instead of 60%) of a regular 1/2-13 bolt. Roughly 30ft-lbs. Then I'd mark the bolt head and watch for movement. If it moved, I'd prolly put regular loctite into it. Or maybe just go with loctite regardless. 

Depending on the quality of the casting and the material composition, fine threads are not normally recommended in cast iron. Most bolted connections are designed to be torqued at around 60% of the tensile strength of the bolt material. This ensures enough stretch to stop the bolt from turning without over stressing the bolt. The nut gets ignored because it is a bigger diameter than the bolt and won't usually fail. For similar materials (eg bolt and nut the same) this is easy. But when the nut (casting in this case) is a different material, this approach goes to hell in a handbasket. For threads in cast iron that don't follow a normal steel stress/strain curve, course threads are better than fine. Basically, the stretching bolt shears off the casting threads one at a time as it stretches and the casting doesn't. Fine threads break off this way easier than course ones do. If the cast iron stretched or compressed the same as the steel, this wouldn't be an issue.

I don't really think all that was any help to you, but too much info is better than not enough.

Again, helicoils, loctite, original bolts, 30 ft-lbs. Best I can do without better info.  If you really want to go with bigger bolts that's probably fine (assuming the ears don't get too weak), but in cast iron, I'd stick with course threads.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> I'm wondering if those bolts were originally metric? My LC-30 has metric fasteners.



I suppose that is possible. But mine are 1/2-13 the same as Craig's. So between you and I we are batting 50/50.



Tom O said:


> It would be interesting to see the measurements of the bolts using the wire system just to see what they measure have you tried a tap in the hole to see how it fits?



I'll try that in mine tomorrow too. But I doubt my bolts are original, and I'll bet that the threaded holes in mine are. 

In any event, mine are just as loose as Craig's are.


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

Just wondering, what is the difference between an LC-30A, an LC-30, and an RF30?


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## YYCHM (Dec 2, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Just wondering, what is the difference between an LC-30A, an LC-30, and all RF30?



LC-30A, LC-30, @trlvn's Craftex B1976, and my House of Tools machine are all RF30 clones.  Just larger round column mill/drills with manufactures/supplier improvements(?) to add to the confusion.  King PMD-30 is another one.

These guys.. https://rongfu.com/mill-drill-machines/

LC-30A, LC-30 are Long Chang machines but still considered RF clones.


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> I'm wondering if those bolts were originally metric? My LC-30 has metric fasteners.





Tom O said:


> It would be interesting to see the measurements of the bolts using the wire system just to see what they measure have you tried a tap in the hole to see how it fits?
> Busy Bee’s base does have the little cabinet in it but I seldom use it other than storing the toolbox it came with.



For sure, some of the fasteners are metric.  These particular threaded holes are 7/16-14 currently and I don't think there is any normal metric standard that is close.  For example, I don't think they were previously M10 because if they were tap drilled for 7/16-14, it would not have cleaned out the prior threads.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 2, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Mine has no washers at all. The Bolts on mine are all Grade 8 1/2-13 x 1.5" Socket Head Machine Screws. They look original. I have no idea at all why they were used in this application. Grade 8 Bolts into regular old cast iron doesn't make sense to me. Sorry about that..... Maybe a previous owner upgraded the bolts thinking stronger is always better???? Or maybe the clone boys wherever they are thought that too?
> 
> On close inspection, and assuming yours is similar enough to mine, I am still solidly on my original guess and MUCH LESS inclined to think yours failed by fatigue. I simply think yours was over torqued by a gorilla and the threads in the base were pulled out. Normally, the bolt would strip first, but a grade 8 bolt (if that's what yours had too) would strip the casting long before the bolt.


Thanks for checking for me.  Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression but I, too, believe that 'Bubba' (the mythical previous owner) stripped the threads the old fashioned way--by pulling for all he was worth!  I think he also failed to consider that he'd inserted a 1/4 inch plate that reduced the bolt's engagement in the casting.  That coupled with the loose fit of the bolt in the hole meant that the threads in the cast iron crumbled.

Re 1/2-13 v. 1/2-20, the problem is, as @John Conroy pointed out, that the tap drill for 1/2-13 (27/64 or 0.4219) won't completely remove the existing 7/16-14 threads (0.4375).  The tap drill for 1/2-20 (29/64 or 0.4531) will.  Lots of people use 1/4-20 in cast iron so I expect that 1/2-20 ought to form OK threads.  And I have nearly 1 inch of casting available so lots of threads.  

I just don't have any experience with helicoils (or similar).  I did, however, see a reference tonight that there are longer inserts available (7/8" v. 1/2"?).  The kits seem to be pretty darn expensive, $78 at BoltsPlus?





__





						7/16-14 Thread Repair Kit || Bolts Plus Inc.
					

Bolts Plus provides fasteners, tools, industrial and safety supplies.  Bolts Plus, Get Hooked On Us For All Your Industrial Needs!




					www.boltsplus.ca
				




So I bought 1/2-20 bolts this afternoon but haven't drilled and tapped for them yet.  (My feet still get tired and swollen at times after the chemo.)  As an aside, Home Depot had no Grade 2 or Grade 5 bolts in 7/16--either UNC or UNF?  

Finally re Loctite, the problem is that these are the bolts that will be used for tramming the head.  I don't want to have to torch them to get them free if the machine needs an adjustment.  

@Susquatch I do appreciate you sharing your experience.  I may not be following your advice exactly but you are surely helping me understand the issues and think through the options.  That is always good in my books!

Craig


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 3, 2021)

I never checked to see what metric might be close to your size, you did mention that Bubba had been at the machine previously.  The bolts on my mill are socket head cap screws like Susquatch has and are original.


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## Susquatch (Dec 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Thanks for checking for me.  Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression but I, too, believe that 'Bubba' (the mythical previous owner) stripped the threads the old fashioned way--by pulling for all he was worth!  I think he also failed to consider that he'd inserted a 1/4 inch plate that reduced the bolt's engagement in the casting.  That coupled with the loose fit of the bolt in the hole meant that the threads in the cast iron crumbled.
> 
> Re 1/2-13 v. 1/2-20, the problem is, as @John Conroy pointed out, that the tap drill for 1/2-13 (27/64 or 0.4219) won't completely remove the existing 7/16-14 threads (0.4375).  The tap drill for 1/2-20 (29/64 or 0.4531) will.  Lots of people use 1/4-20 in cast iron so I expect that 1/2-20 ought to form OK threads.  And I have nearly 1 inch of casting available so lots of threads.
> 
> ...



I get no wrinkles in my shorts when people don't do what I suggest. My whole career world has always been full of teams who share their knowledge and ideas and then the best is picked by team consensus or team leader - you are the team leader on this project 

I don't know why I thought your bolts were 1/2-13 too. Maybe it's because you were talking about replacing your Bolts with 1/2" ones. If I had known yours were 7/16-14, I would have recommended 7/16-14 Helicoils. The nice thing about helicoils is that you use the original size bolt. The original hole is merely tapped to have deeper threads with a special tap that comes with the helicoil kit. Then the helicoil is turned into the new threads and the old size bolt is re-installed. Because helicoils are a high grade steel, and because the hole in the old material is a tiny bit bigger, the new female half of the connection is almost always stronger than the original. That would certainly be the case in cast iron. Just to give you some comfort, they are often used to repair cast iron cylinder heads when Bubba strips the spark plug hole - which is a much more severe and critical application than yours. I have also seen them used in an original design to improve the female side of a weak connection right from the factory - eg a short hole.

The kit for 7/16-14 is only $37 at Canadian Tire and includes the tap and 3 coils. You can probably get it even cheaper elsewhere.



			https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/oemtools-thread-repair-kit-unc-7-16-in-14-0251216p.html
		


I certainly didn't mean to suggest using red loctite, just blue which needs no torch. But it should be fine without the loctite. Just mark the bolt head and flange so you know it isn't moving. I was only suggesting it so you could go with a lower torque value and not worry about the cast iron threads pulling out again or about the bolt coming loose.

Even if you don't try the helicoils in your mill, you should try helicoils sometime. They really are a miracle solution to a nasty problem and are very very easy to use. They belong in your "solutions handbook". I use them on farm machinery fixes all the time.

I was fully intending to follow @John Conroy's advice and use them to hold the Turret on in my Bridgeport (a much bigger load than your application but still basically exactly the same situation) until I discovered that the whole ear on the retaining spider had broken off. I even bought the 1/2" helicoil kit. The new spider arrives here on Monday.

Enough is enough. At this point, I feel confident that you know as much as you need to know to make a good decision.

But all-in-all, I am still glad to have had the discussion with you because I did not know that shimming the column was required to tram the head. Mine has never been touched. I have only ever trammed the X axis, not the y.

It just so happens that I am working on a new 3 gauge x-y tramming fixture right now. I already have the gauges and the gauge plate and I have ordered the material to make the wobble plate from. I will use the new fixture on my old mill/drill to check and adjust my Y tram. It might make it easier to do.

What kind of shims do you use, and how much of a PIA is that process, and how do you decide when enough is enough?


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## trlvn (Dec 3, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> What kind of shims do you use, and how much of a PIA is that process, and how do you decide when enough is enough?


So far, I haven't trammed the head.  Just given the design of my machine, there is no other place to shim if it is needed.  When I get the table back on, I'll be checking it for the first time.  Previously, it seemed a waste of time to tram the head since I intended to disassemble everything for the move to the basement.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> So far, I haven't trammed the head.  Just given the design of my machine, there is no other place to shim if it is needed.  When I get the table back on, I'll be checking it for the first time.  Previously, it seemed a waste of time to tram the head since I intended to disassemble everything for the move to the basement.
> 
> Craig



I understand. Heck, I've had mine for 8 years in a big shop and I never did it because I didn't even know it could or should be done! 

I'll be looking forward to hearing how you made out when & if you do it.


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## historicalarms (Dec 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I think maybe my picture is making it look worse than it is.  The legs splay a bit and the feet cover about 22.5 inches left to right.  The spindle is about 10 inches from the column, centre to centre.  So the spindle centre is just inside the feet.  I have never rotated the head straight back.  In that case, the spindle would be beyond the feet.  Whether the mass of the stand and base would be enough to keep it upright, I don't know.  I'll certainly be careful if I ever find a need to do that.
> 
> Craig


  Certainly hate to be a "pup with a root that wont let go" but your measurements are still a concern for me...1/2 of 22.5 is 11 1/4 and you say your spindle is 10 ". If everything remains centered, of course your all right....but ....now traverse your table fully to one side or the other especially with a work-piece of any weight and that 1 1/4 inch counter balance is over-rode & gone and that thing will end up on top of whatever is underneath it in a hurry. Even if your head is pivoted 20 deg or so one way or the other (I frequently use this feature when operating mine, you can increase table usage by a few inches length this way ) can lessen stability with table fully traveled.

     Again, sorry for the harping ...but I've seen many heavy things fall, most intentionally but not always and it falls faster than we can move.


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## historicalarms (Dec 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I think maybe my picture is making it look worse than it is.  The legs splay a bit and the feet cover about 22.5 inches left to right.  The spindle is about 10 inches from the column, centre to centre.  So the spindle centre is just inside the feet.  I have never rotated the head straight back.  In that case, the spindle would be beyond the feet.  Whether the mass of the stand and base would be enough to keep it upright, I don't know.  I'll certainly be careful if I ever find a need to do that.
> 
> Craig


  Certainly hate to be a "pup with a root that wont let go" but your measurements are still a concern for me...1/2 of 22.5 is 11 1/4 and you say your spindle is 10 ". If everything remains centered, of course your all right....but ....now traverse your table fully to one side or the other especially with a work-piece of any weight and that 1 1/4 inch counter balance is over-rode & gone and that thing will end up on top of whatever is underneath it in a hurry. Even if your head is pivoted 20 deg or so one way or the other (I frequently use this feature when operating mine, you can increase table usage by a few inches length this way ) can lessen stability with table fully traveled.

     Again, sorry for the harping ...but I've seen many heavy things fall, most intentionally but not always and it falls faster than we can move.


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## trlvn (Dec 3, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Certainly hate to be a "pup with a root that wont let go" but your measurements are still a concern for me...1/2 of 22.5 is 11 1/4 and you say your spindle is 10 ". If everything remains centered, of course your all right....but ....now traverse your table fully to one side or the other especially with a work-piece of any weight and that 1 1/4 inch counter balance is over-rode & gone and that thing will end up on top of whatever is underneath it in a hurry. Even if your head is pivoted 20 deg or so one way or the other (I frequently use this feature when operating mine, you can increase table usage by a few inches length this way ) can lessen stability with table fully traveled.
> 
> Again, sorry for the harping ...but I've seen many heavy things fall, most intentionally but not always and it falls faster than we can move.


No problem, I understand the concern.  The power feed unit on the left side adds and unbalanced weight.  If I were to mount the bigger vise (6 inch) towards that side, together with a heavy workpiece, and raise and rotate the head, I could certainly see getting to the tipping point.  However, I'm pretty conscious of the fact that it is a top heavy machine.  Plus, almost all my work will be very small parts like models and so forth.  

I recognize that it only takes one mistake...but I've been a woodworked for over 25 years and I still have all my fingers.  There was that one incident, however, where about an inch of the end of the push stick disappeared in a blink of an eye. A close call can drive home a lesson like nothing else.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 3, 2021)

@David_R8 's stand is about the same speed. He indicated to me the bottom of the legs are 27" W X 24" D.  @thriller007 what does that stand measure that you got with my machine?


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## trlvn (Dec 3, 2021)

King Canada's PDM-30 mill/drill is in the same class, so I checked the stand they offer for it (SS-45):














						STAND FOR MILLING/DRILLING MACHINE KING Canada - Power Tools, Woodworking and Metalworking Machines by King Canada
					

Optional stand for milling and drilling machines




					www.kingcanada.com
				




L X W X H -- 31 X 21-1/2 X 28-1/4

That makes it a skitch more narrow than mine.  I do note that it has the provision to be bolted down to the floor.  Nonetheless, I think mine (31-3/4 X 22-1/4 X 30-1/4) is in a reasonable ball park.  

BTW, I'm not sure the Busybee stand is really comparable since they don't sell an RF-30 type machine any more.  I think their stand is intended for the smaller RF-45 class mini mill.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 3, 2021)

Sigh.

So, rethreading the first hole--the damaged one--from 7/16-14 to 1/2-20 did not turn out as well as I might have hoped.  The 29/64" tap drill kept grabbing as soon as it touched the existing (coarse) threads.  It would then spin in the chuck no mater how much I tightened it.  Going down to a  7/16 bit worked, however and then I was able to enlarge the hole out to 29/64.  But there were still remnants of the old threads which I did not expect.  Viz:






Perhaps foolishly, I continued on to tap 1/2-20 using what I think was a brand-new tap:






Pretty ugly threads.

If you peer into the hole, it seems to me that threads get more regular towards the bottom.  Regardless, my new bolt does thread in decently and I'm pretty sure that there are enough good threads for the application.

However, based on this result, I'm inclined to leave the other 3 threaded holes as they are.  I'm going to grab some new 7/16-14 bolts and see if they fit the existing holes better.  Always one more trip to the store.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 3, 2021)

Where you hand tapping?  CI usually taps very nicely.


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## trlvn (Dec 3, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Where you hand tapping?  CI usually taps very nicely.


Yes.  Tap engaged very easily and cut the threads with little effort.  The cast iron 'chips' all fell through so it wasn't even necessary to do the twist-and-back-off dance.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Yes.  Tap engaged very easily and cut the threads with little effort.  The cast iron 'chips' all fell through so it wasn't even necessary to do the twist-and-back-off dance.
> 
> Craig



Funny, I would have thought I would know this, but I didn't. You just taught me something! All these years I've been doing the reverse dance in cast iron too, but because cast iron breaks those little chips off all on its own, I didn't need to. I just never thought about it. Thanks for the lesson! 

I have a cast iron backplate that I plan to drill and tap very shortly. I'll remember this exchange!


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## trlvn (Dec 7, 2021)

At the risk of boring everyone to tears, just one more post about these stupid threaded holes.  Over the weekend, I started to reassemble the head.  And stripped another threaded hole.  Grrr.  I swear I had a small ratchet and I barely snugged the bolt.  But there was a little 'cruk' sound and suddenly the bolt turned very easily.

On the other stripped hole, I had previously drilled it out to 29/64 and tapped 1/2-20 with crappy results that I think have sub-par holding power.  Plus, when assembling the head, using the 1/2 inch bolt (instead of 7/16) it meant there was very little 'wiggle room'.  I had to start the 3 7/16 bolts to get the head close to its final home and then I could get the 1/2 inch bolt to engage.  So I really didn't want to upsize the other bolts to 1/2 inch or it would take a month of Sundays to get the thing together.

Plan "D" was to use a nut.  On the side away from the operator, there is sufficient room inside the hollow casting for a washer and nut.  That portion of the casting is actually very nice and smooth even though it has not been machined.  So I drilled out the hole to 29/64.  Again, that _should_ have removed all traces of the 7/16-14 threads but didn't.  I did this for both holes on the side away from the operator.  After that, it was relatively easy to put the head back on and secure it nice and tight.

Inside the casting on the operator side, there is not enough room for a hex nut or bolt head.  There *may* be enough room for a 7/16" socket head cap screw.  Should I ever strip the remaining 7/16-14 hole I think I'll change both of the fasteners on that side to SHCS coming up from the bottom.  

Note I now have one 1/2-20 bolt, one 7/16-14 bolt and two 7/16 nut-and-bolt connections.  What a dog's breakfast.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 7, 2021)

Quick shot of the head going back on.  Not how close I am to the overhead ducting.  It remains to be seen if I'll be able to put the hinged portion of the belt cover back on top of the head.






Craig
(Yes, that is an old diaper pail photo-bombing this pic!  It is clean and has been repurposed.)


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## Susquatch (Dec 7, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Note I now have one 1/2-20 bolt, one 7/16-14 bolt and two 7/16 nut-and-bolt connections. What a dog's breakfast.



Yup, shoulda used Helicoils...... 

You need to get a kit and try them at least once. You will be converted to helicoilism in the blink of an eye......


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## trlvn (Dec 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Yup, shoulda used Helicoils......
> 
> You need to get a kit and try them at least once. You will be converted to helicoilism in the blink of an eye......


yabut...I checked the 7/16-14 helicoil repair kit online and it specified a 29/64 drill before tapping for the coil.  That would still have left me with malformed threading for the coil.  Here is what the *best* hole looked like after drilling out to 29/64:






BTW, as somebody mentioned long ago, the fasteners are metric.  But weird sizes.  For example the fixed portion of the belt cover is attached with several bolts that measure 7.75 mm (as close as I can figure).  Which is about 0.100" less than 5/16 inch.  Didn't check the threading but a 5/16-18 nut will not go on.  The head size is 12 mm which is, of course, awfully close to 1/2 inch.

I still don't know for sure but possibly the original bolts that have given me so many problems were actually a weird metric size.  Maybe 11 or 11.25 mm with a very coarse thread.  IOW, darn close to 7/16-14 but not actually.  'Bubba' may have just assumed they were 7/16-14 and forced in some bolts of that size.  He clearly had these apart as this is where he added his home-made mount for the DRO screen.  If my theory is true, it would account for the really crappy fit of the 7/16-14 bolts and explain why the threads stripped out so easily.  

One of these days, I will use a helicoil.  I'm also pretty sure using nuts on the underside is the better solution in this case.

Craig


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 7, 2021)

Sounds like Bubba did a real good job of screwing things up. If your hinged lid doesn't fit then leave it off. I'm not even sure where my cover is, 'tis a pain in the butt when you have to change belts around.


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## Susquatch (Dec 7, 2021)

trlvn said:


> yabut...I checked the 7/16-14 helicoil repair kit online and it specified a 29/64 drill before tapping for the coil. That would still have left me with malformed threading for the coil.



Yabut nothing Craig. 

The beauty of a helicoil is that you are not changing pitch. You are actually using the old threads to guide the new ones. So you WANT some threads left after drilling. Then you tap the OLD threads a bit deeper, insert the coil, and then use the old bolts! 

Try it, you will be singing hallelujah with the rest of us......


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## 140mower (Dec 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Yabut nothing Craig.
> 
> The beauty of a helicoil is that you are not changing pitch. You are actually using the old threads to guide the new ones. So you WANT some threads left after drilling. Then you tap the OLD threads a bit deeper, insert the coil, and then use the old bolts!
> 
> Try it, you will be singing hallelujah with the rest of us......


Agreed, it's one of the few easy repairs that are actually better than new in most cases.


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## Susquatch (Dec 7, 2021)

140mower said:


> Agreed, it's one of the few easy repairs that are actually better than new in most cases.



Sing it brother, sing it with me! 

Hallelujah, hallelujah.... Hallelujah! 

We just have to get Craig to try it and he will be a helicoilism convert too. 

@trlvn - think about this for a moment. @John Conroy recommended helicoils to repair the spider on my full size Bridgeport. Those four 1/2" Bolts hold the top and bottom half of the BP together. Yet you lift the whole machine by the top half. That's thousands of pounds hanging on a helicoil. 

It turned out that my spider was broken so I just replaced it, but I had the helicoil kit to repair it sitting on my bench cuz the minute I read his note, I knew he was right. It's too late for the big hole, but you might still consider it for the others. 

But as I said before, even if you can't use them on this job, you should try them. They absolutely belong in your repair arsenal.


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## 140mower (Dec 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Sing it brother, sing it with me!
> 
> Hallelujah, hallelujah.... Hallelujah!
> 
> ...


Come on in Craig, the water is warm and the kool aid is pretty tasty...... Yer just one wierd tap and a funky insert away from the promised land.....
Too much?


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## trlvn (Dec 8, 2021)

Much faster progress now that I'm done f@rting around with the mangled threaded holes.  All the parts cleaned up easily with some paint thinner and/or WD-40.  There is very little wear on this machine.  Just a few hints of shiny spots on the sliding surfaces.  The screws and nuts for X and Y look really good.  In the shot below, the saddle is reinstalled along with the Y screw.  






The saddle is actually awkward to work with since I elected not to take the DRO scales off.  The saddle is surprisingly heavy and the scales are rather delicate.  Needed to be careful not to damage them.

Reinstalling the table and the other bits and bobs was also straightforward.  I may add an oiling system in the future but I need to think about how best to get around the DRO, gibs and other obstructions.  






Everything is powered up and works as expected.  

Next steps are to tidy up the wiring and check the tram.  I picked up an indicator holder from Busybee:















						HOLDER UNIVERSAL INDICATOR
					

Busy Bee Tools is Canada's largest Woodworking & Metalworking retailer. Find power tools, woodworking tools & metalworking tools at factory direct prices.




					www.busybeetools.com
				




Unfortunately, the screw that locks it to the quill sticks out to far and runs into the depth-stop knob.  I need to have a closer look at it and see if maybe I can modify it to work on my machine.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 8, 2021)

And the belt cover lid went on..... Yea


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## johnnielsen (Dec 8, 2021)

I am late to this discussion but would like to throw an idea out there. Put a piece of all thread in the semi threaded hole and put a nut on the all thread from underneath. Now the all thread is treated like a protruding stud and the column is lowered onto it.


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## Susquatch (Dec 8, 2021)

Great job Craig. It's looking terrific. I got one of those Busy Bee Quill Holders 5 years ago or so too. I made a new quill clamp section to fit my machine to replace the original piece. Nothing fancy, just a piece of wood with a hole saw cut in it. I use it on my lathe tailstock one in a while too. Yours reminds me that I always wanted to make a better one out of aluminium plate. Another job for the new mill!

Yup, using my tools to make more tools for my tools!


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## trlvn (Dec 10, 2021)

Tramming the head was not a lot of fun.  I re-watched Marc Lucuyer's video (_That Lazy Machinist_ channel):






I used a half-thou indicator to take some measurements around a diameter of nearly 8 inches.  Over the 8 inches, the head was leaning forward by 3 thous and to the right by about 5.5 or 6 thous.  






I also did a little test where I raised the head and then extended the quill pretty much to its maximum.  The measurements were almost precisely the same.  From that, I conclude that the column and quill are both pretty straight and parallel to one another.

I used an old feeler gauge set as the source for my shim stock.  Just drilled out the rivet holding all the leaves together and Voila!

Unfortunately, I got myself turned around and shimmed the wrong direction to start with.  Eventually, I got on the right track although it is all to easy to miss that a shim has now made the low side into the high side.  After that, increasing the shim thickness then just makes things worse!  Duh!

In the end, the fore-and-aft alignment is out by about 1/4 thou.  The side-to-side alignment is not as good at nearly 1 thou off.  That is with a 4 thou shim at the back of the column and a 5 thou shim on the right. I can always come back and try again.  I'm curious if the measurements will change after doing some actual work.

BTW, the fore-and-aft measurement can be easily changed by a thou or more just by pushing up on the belt cover.  Say 20 pounds of pressure?  I imagine the head will lift during roughing cuts and hopefully behave for finer finishing cuts.

The next step for the mill is to decide between the 4 and 6 inch vises and get one mounted and trammed in.  And then maybe actually make a test cut!  But I also need to bring my big tool chest down from the garage and assemble the newly-purchased work table.  And move the metal lathe from one of the shop to the other.  I've been working _on_ the shop since September.  Sooner or later, I'd like to _use_ the shop to make something.

Craig


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## YotaBota (Dec 10, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I used an old feeler gauge set as the source for my shim stock.


That's cheating,,,,,,,, I like it lol
Are you torquing the bolts to the same lbs/kg after each adjustment? When I was leveling the lathe I found that 10/15 lbs more/less on one corner made a difference in the level. I don't know what it would work out to in thou but I could move the bubble the full length of the vial by adding more torque to one bolt. I ended up at 70lbs on the torque-o-meter using 1/2 inch bolts.


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## YYCHM (Dec 10, 2021)

Where did the indicator holder come from?


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## trlvn (Dec 10, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> That's cheating,,,,,,,, I like it lol
> Are you torquing the bolts to the same lbs/kg after each adjustment? When I was leveling the lathe I found that 10/15 lbs more/less on one corner made a difference in the level. I don't know what it would work out to in thou but I could move the bubble the full length of the vial by adding more torque to one bolt. I ended up at 70lbs on the torque-o-meter using 1/2 inch bolts.


One thing I'm lacking is a torque wrench.  I try to pull the same amount each time, but...

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 10, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Where did the indicator holder come from?


Almost all my measurement stuff is from auction box lots so I have an embarrassment of arms and whatnot for dial indicators.  (Although some is metric and other bits are imperial sized and therefore not all compatible.)  OTOH, I have very little for dial test indicators.  I actually used parts from a surface gauge to hold the DTI.  

In fact, I would have preferred to use my Verdict dti as it has a much bigger dial.  But I couldn't easily find something to go between the collet in the mill and the dti.  So I just squinted at the Starrett!

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 11, 2021)

trlvn said:


> BTW, the fore-and-aft measurement can be easily changed by a thou or more just by pushing up on the belt cover. Say 20 pounds of pressure? I imagine the head will lift during roughing cuts and hopefully behave for finer finishing cuts.



This is to be expected. Even 6" bar steel bends to the force of a baby - its not if, it's only how much. That's one of the reasons why we have small mills and big mills and huge mills. It's no big deal.



trlvn said:


> I used an old feeler gauge set as the source for my shim stock. Just drilled out the rivet holding all the leaves together and Voila!



I do the same thing. I bought a half dozen feeler gauge sets that were on sale cheap a few years ago for exactly the same purpose. But I didnt drill out the hinge - I just snip the leaves off with tin snips as needed. It's not cheating, it's being frugal and savy.


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## trlvn (Dec 22, 2021)

Sorry that I haven't updated this thread in some time.  I've been plugging away at a slow pace.  Just to step back though, the following picture was from October 18.






To get to that point, I'd temporarily moved a bunch of stuff out to a storage pod on the driveway.  And sold some stuff, donated more and hauled even more to the dump.  Here, the storage room floor is down and the framing is up ready for drywall and plywood.

Fast forward to today, and this is the view in the same general direction:






I'm going to have to rearrange, though.  The big red tool chest just doesn't fit on that side.  It blocks the lathe too much.  Hopefully I can fit it on the other side of the room without it cutting off that end of the shop.  

I mentioned in another thread that I'd bought a work table from Princess Auto (on sale!).  I'm pretty happy with it so far.  The one on display would wiggle and rock but mine is decently solid.  I had to use a christmas tree bit to enlarge a couple of holes during assembly but that was a pretty minor detail.  The tools and whatnot on top of it need to find homes in the tool chest and cabinets.

I'm planning to make an extra wooden top out of 2-by stock to go on the work table.  That way, the wood top will be above the lip on the edges and I'll be able to work on all sides.  Also should be quieter for the grinder and tabletop bandsaw.  

Another ToDo item is under cabinet lights above the metal lathe.  I'm thinking some kind of strip light.  Really only needs to be about 18 inches above the working section of the bed.  Suggestions?

Lots still to be done but it is starting to feel like I just might get through this!

Craig


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## combustable herbage (Dec 22, 2021)

Looks great Craig you have made a lot of progress.  tough one with the tool box but I don't think it will matter much if its on the other side.


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## Susquatch (Dec 23, 2021)

trlvn said:


> The big red tool chest just doesn't fit on that side. It blocks the lathe too much. Hopefully I can fit it on the other side of the room without it cutting off that end of the shop.



Agreed. You need access. It won't go under the cabinet on that same wall, but the work table currently on the left could and wouldn't interfere with the lathe. I'd just swap the tool chest and work horse for now. That way you could also put lathe things on the workhorse - chucks, collet sets, etc. 

I think I see tool holders on the lathe table in front of the motor. I'd put lathe tools (chuck keys, quick change wrench, etc) there instead and I'd make a shelf on the wall above the lathe for the tool holders. 

I bought some partial Allen key sets at auctions and used them as a mine for the keys I need for my lathe so they are dedicated to the job. I hate digging around for the right size key. It's better if they are in a handy hole in a shelf.  Change gear key far left, cross slide lock second from left, tool holder key third from left, etc. Etc. 

I plan to do the same thing for my mill but it's further down the priority list right now. 



trlvn said:


> Another ToDo item is under cabinet lights above the metal lathe. I'm thinking some kind of strip light. Really only needs to be about 18 inches above the working section of the bed. Suggestions?



None. I'll be looking for your input on that one. 

My lathe has a dedicated 24V halogen light attached to the cross slide that I HATE! It is forever blowing bulbs that are hard to find and hard to change. I recently got a batch of bulbs that appear to have been incorrectly labelled as the very first one fried the lamp switch. That whole lighting thing needs a redesign. Same goes for the mill. I'm thinking about re-purposing two of my old post style indicator holders for battery powered lights or at least 120V with small wires. 

If you are determined to have broader coverage lighting, go get one of those 48" LED fixtures they sell for workshops and garages at TSC or Crappy Tire and either mount it under the cabinet or hang it on chains.


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## trlvn (Dec 23, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Agreed. You need access. It won't go under the cabinet on that same wall, but the work table currently on the left could and wouldn't interfere with the lathe. I'd just swap the tool chest and work horse for now. That way you could also put lathe things on the workhorse - chucks, collet sets, etc.



It's hard to make out from my picture but the Workmate is too close to the mill.  And the way the legs splay out, it would use more floor space than the tool chest.  I think it is going to end up in the garage.


Susquatch said:


> I think I see tool holders on the lathe table in front of the motor. I'd put lathe tools (chuck keys, quick change wrench, etc) there instead and I'd make a shelf on the wall above the lathe for the tool holders.



I still have to put away a lot of stuff like those quick change tool holders.  Definitely agree about having regularly-used tools right at hand.  For example, I want to have spotting drills, countersinks and my stub drill set all mounted on the walls near the mill since they are used so often.  Maybe a number drill set, too.  With the setup I'm developing, those will all be handy to the lathe at the same time.

Thinking about it, there are a bunch of things that need to be out ready to use.  Cutting oil/fluid.  Caliper, 1 inch micrometer, 6 inch ruler.  File for de-burring.  Pencil and note pad.  What else do you keep at hand between the mill and lathe?

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 24, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Thinking about it, there are a bunch of things that need to be out ready to use. Cutting oil/fluid. Caliper, 1 inch micrometer, 6 inch ruler. File for de-burring. Pencil and note pad. What else do you keep at hand between the mill and lathe?



Oh, such a GREAT question. I'd like to know the answer to that question too! I've had a lathe for what some here would call a lifetime. But I'm relatively new to a decent mill. I still don't know what I will use most.

For the time being, I want:
1. Allen wrenches for my vise, T-Nuts, and tool holders
2. A 3/4 inch box ratchet for the draw bar, vise screw, and mill bolts
3. A magnetic base flashlight
4. A 6" rule
5. A dropper bottle of AP cutting fluid
6. A plastic mallet
7. A dial caliper
8. A 10ft tape measure
9. A butt grabber
10. Collapsible Stick Magnet
11. A decent magnifying glass
12. Dykem Marker Pen
13. Pen and small pad of paper
14. Phone charger & stand
15. A 1/2" HSS End Mill in a dedicated R8 Collet. And maybe a 1/4" end mill & collet too.
16. An R8 Drill Chuck
17. Large & small drill centers
18. Edge Finder & Centering Tool. 
19. Noga deburring tool. 
20. Lathe File

That's my two cents for now. But I'll bet big bucks others have better lists based on way more experience.


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## trlvn (Dec 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> 9. A butt grabber


A what?


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## Dusty (Dec 24, 2021)

trlvn said:


> A what?



Tried that once (not in public), got my face slapped with a stern warning from my wife to never do it again. 

I'm innocent your honor my hand slipped. LOL


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## Susquatch (Dec 24, 2021)

trlvn said:


> A what?



Many years ago, one of my sons swiped this gizmo I had that operates a pincher at the end of a long arm by squeezing the handle. He used it in the pool to pinch everyone's butt under water from a distance. He particularly relished doing it with an innocent bystander between him and his victim. Ever since then we have called my pickup arm a "butt grabber". I like them cuz I'm always dropping something but don't bend over very well anymore. 

EZPIK 26"~66 cm Foldable Small Grabber Reacher Tool - Trash Picker Grabber Reacher Tool Heavy Duty - Short Reacher Grabber Pickup Tool for Elderly [ Metal Latch ] https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07WRG21LX/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_YGSPCB9WSH8GG8ZFR4H1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1



Dusty said:


> Tried that once (not in public), got my face slapped with a stern warning



Silly boy! You are NEVER supposed to grab your own wife! 

My bride was born in Italy. She loves it when she gets her butt grabbed! Even in church!


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## Dusty (Dec 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Many years ago, one of my sons swiped this gizmo I had that operates a pincher at the end of a long arm by squeezing the handle. He used it in the pool to pinch everyone's butt under water from a distance. He particularly relished doing it with an innocent bystander between him and his victim. Ever since then we have called my pickup arm a "butt grabber". I like them cuz I'm always dropping something but don't bend over very well anymore.
> 
> EZPIK 26"~66 cm Foldable Small Grabber Reacher Tool - Trash Picker Grabber Reacher Tool Heavy Duty - Short Reacher Grabber Pickup Tool for Elderly [ Metal Latch ] https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07WRG21LX/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_YGSPCB9WSH8GG8ZFR4H1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...



Thought I'd throw this into the mix, never mentioned it was my wife's butt. Devil made me say that. LOL


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## Susquatch (Dec 24, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Thought I'd throw this into the mix, never mentioned it was my wife's butt. Devil made me say that. LOL



OK then! You are allowed to claim hand slippage under those circumstances.....


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## trlvn (Dec 30, 2021)

Finally got around to organizing storage for milling cutters:






This drawer is about 22 X 16.  Being cheap--and somewhat OCD--I was looking for an inexpensive way to keep the cutters organized and not banging into each other.  My 'system' uses 1/8" inch hardboard (that I already had) and plastic corner protectors that are actually designed for wallpaper.  The corner protectors are approximately 1/2" X 1/2" and I simply notched them with the table saw so I could lay in 1/2" strips of 1/8" hardboard to create the rows and columns.  Most of the spaces are 1 inch by 3.5 inches; a few at the back are double-length for over-long cutters.

The following shows roughly how they were constructed.






I started with double-sided tape to position the corner protector parts onto the hardboard base.  I felt that wasn't strong enough so then I added a few drops of hot melt glue for each strip.

A few cutters didn't fit the slots above.  However, my wife does paper crafts and she whipped up some simple 'tubs' out of card stock.  This was a good use for some card stock that had been deemed 'ugly'!  






Just a couple more shop-improvement projects and I may actually be able to actually start a metal-working project!  

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

WOW That's quite the collection of end mills.....








Are these actually for your mill/drill of something else?


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Finally got around to organizing storage for milling cutters:
> 
> View attachment 19362
> 
> ...



Looks awesome!

Cant believe you tricked your wife into helping! 

Looks a lot like a fishing tackle box! Hmmmm..... Wonder if some of those tackle trays might do the job too!


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## trlvn (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> WOW That's quite the collection of end mills.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are roundover and keyway cutting bits.  I got the roundovers in an action box lot for almost nothing.  A couple are pretty badly abused but others still have the protective goop after being re-sharpened.  I've never actually cut metal with any of them...yet!  The smallest cuts a 5/32" radius while the biggest cuts 7/16" radius.  I'm not sure my RF-30 has enough oomph for the big ones.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Those are roundover and keyway cutting bits.  I got the roundovers in an action box lot for almost nothing.  A couple are pretty badly abused but others still have the protective goop after being re-sharpened.  I've never actually cut metal with any of them...yet!  The smallest cuts a 5/32" radius while the biggest cuts 7/16" radius.  I'm not sure my RF-30 has enough oomph for the big ones.
> 
> Craig



Is your mill/drill R8?  Some of that stuff looks too large for a R8 collet?


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## trlvn (Dec 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Looks a lot like a fishing tackle box! Hmmmm..... Wonder if some of those tackle trays might do the job too!


I went round and round trying to decide what size to make the storage slots.  Eventually, it occurred to me that keeping the boxes was a good thing since they're easy to read the diameter, number of flutes, etc.  From that, the biggest boxes pretty much defined the 1 X 3.5 size except for the extra-long mills.

Craig


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## trlvn (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Is your mill/drill R8?  Some of that stuff looks too large for a R8 collet?


It is an R8 spindle and the 3 largest roundovers are 1" shank.  My collets only go up to 7/8" but I could get a 1" end mill holder with R8 shank.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I went round and round trying to decide what size to make the storage slots.  Eventually, it occurred to me that keeping the boxes was a good thing since they're easy to read the diameter, number of flutes, etc.  From that, the biggest boxes pretty much defined the 1 X 3.5 size except for the extra-long mills.
> 
> Craig



Good stuff. That is exactly what would kill me. I don't handle compromise very well. They say "One should never let the perfect be the enemy of the good." In my case they like to kill each other.


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## trlvn (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> WOW That's quite the collection of end mills.....


I bought 6 or 7 new end mills shortly after getting the machine.  Then for the next few months, I kept stumbling across auction lots that included bunches of cutters and went fairly cheaply.  Only a few of the cutters were outright junk compared to quite a few that have considerable life left.  OTOH, only a single one is carbide.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

trlvn said:


> It is an R8 spindle and the 3 largest roundovers are 1" shank.  My collets only go up to 7/8" but I could get a 1" end mill holder with R8 shank.
> 
> Craig



They do sell 1" R8 Collets. 

Search Amazon for "R8 1 inch Collet". Two come up. One is cheap, the other is not.


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

ER Collet Sizes
					

This page shows the size and clamping range of the various size ER collets that we carry.




					littlemachineshop.com


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> ER Collet Sizes
> 
> 
> This page shows the size and clamping range of the various size ER collets that we carry.
> ...



Not sure I would spend the money for an ER40 collet and holder to do this job......


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 31, 2021)

A good collection of cutters, and nice looking storage.


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