# Bridgeport Project



## architect (Jun 10, 2021)

After 9 months of looking, @Brent H and I are picking up this Bridgeport on Monday. Stay tuned!


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## YYCHM (Jun 10, 2021)

Need pics of the move Please....


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## Tom O (Jun 10, 2021)

That should help fill your future days I hate waiting for delivery dates


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## Mcgyver (Jun 10, 2021)

Nice, seems like a heck of good deal - some big known flaw or just a fortuitous day on kijiji?


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## architect (Jun 10, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Nice, seems like a heck of good deal - some big known flaw or just a fortuitous day on kijiji?



Sounds like a chainsaw so bearings need replacement. @Brent H and I willl open it up to see what the extend of work required.


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## Brent H (Jun 10, 2021)

@YYCHM - @architect will be taking pics and such.  Hopefully everything is pretty smooth.  The seller is lining up a fork lift to put it on the trailer - perfect - we will “block it” and “ lock it” and then “rock it” back to @architect’s place.  I have a video of the noise from @architect and sounds a bit like mine did before a few tweaks and bearings.  

should be a fun project and then super fun to use!!


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## architect (Jun 10, 2021)

Here's the video! Hard to capture the full rumbles and sounds on phone but it sounds worst in person.


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## YYCHM (Jun 10, 2021)

Sounds like a worn out gas lawn mower to me


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 10, 2021)

Hmmm not seeing anything.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 10, 2021)

Found it, sounds rough.


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## Mcgyver (Jun 10, 2021)

architect said:


> Sounds like a chainsaw so bearings need replacement. @Brent H and I willl open it up to see what the extend of work required.



Ouch, do you think its up top or in the spindle?  I've not had a bport apart, but I did the spindle on my XLO last year, bloody expensive....but yours'll still be a steal at that price.


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## Brent H (Jun 10, 2021)

We I’ll give’er the once over.  If you drop $1000 into a $1200 mill and make it new  - you still have a deal.  

hoping to luck into a 220 V motor or, I learn to rewind motors


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## RobinHood (Jun 10, 2021)

It could just be worn varidrive pulley bushings. They are considered wear items. If you put the mill in neutral, and turn the spindle by hand, you should be able to get a pretty good feel if the bearings are shot. A lot of times they are not and can be made “like new“ by rebuilding them. The upper head bearings are not that expensive as they are standard grade bearings.


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## Hruul (Jun 10, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Sounds like a worn out gas lawn mower to me



That is exactly what I thought when I first heard it.  Even seemed to have the little detonation at the end.


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## Mcgyver (Jun 11, 2021)

Brent H said:


> We I’ll give’er the once over.  If you drop $1000 into a $1200 mill and make it new  - you still have a deal.
> 
> hoping to luck into a 220 V motor or, I learn to rewind motors



For sure.....and you get a mill with new bearings.   Is that a standard NEMA frame or something special?   It might be worth comparing the the cost/bother of new motor or rewind option to to single phase step up transformer + a VFD.  I did it on a smaller 440V lathe...worked really well and there usually seem to be some used single phase transformers kicking around on kijiji.  Not saying its neccesarily the way to go, but worth consideration as an option.


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## Proxule (Jun 11, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> It could just be worn varidrive pulley bushings. They are considered wear items. If you put the mill in neutral, and turn the spindle by hand, you should be able to get a pretty good feel if the bearings are shot. A lot of times they are not and can be made “like new“ by rebuilding them. The upper head bearings are not that expensive as they are standard grade bearings.



Done this more then once. Repacking with quality chevron or maybe a spindle specific grease might make things better. Although I did rebuild P5 bearings this way. I wouldnt touch regular old princessquto bearings.

Ymmv


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

architect said:


> After 9 months of looking, @Brent H and I are picking up this Bridgeport on Monday. Stay tuned!
> 
> View attachment 15288



Looks like a great deal to me Architect. Bed looks like it is in much better shape than mine is. How are the ways?

Noisy top section was prolly a blessing cuz it got the price WAY down.

Wish I had members like Brent close by me!


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

architect said:


> After 9 months of looking, @Brent H and I are picking up this Bridgeport on Monday. Stay tuned!
> 
> View attachment 15288



And you scooped a nice X-axis drive too!!!

It's not factory though. Prolly should send it to me to dispose of for you...... LOL!


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## Brent H (Jun 11, 2021)

@Susquatch - you are not too far out of my way (I think).  I have a trip to Brantford very soon and will be heading through the Hamilton area if you are having issues.  Get a copy of that book on refurbishing a Bridgeport- lots of great info


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## architect (Jun 11, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Looks like a great deal to me Architect. Bed looks like it is in much better shape than mine is. How are the ways?
> 
> Noisy top section was prolly a blessing cuz it got the price WAY down.
> 
> Wish I had members like Brent close by me!



I'm not experienced enough to say but here's some more photos. Moving the table around the axis felt -okay-.










At the end of the day it won't be able to run after bearing replacement until I locate a 220v motor.


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## architect (Jun 11, 2021)

Bed isn't pristine but good enough for me!


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## YYCHM (Jun 11, 2021)

Gonna be a LONG weekend waiting for Monday to roll around


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

architect said:


> At the end of the day it won't be able to run after bearing replacement until I located a 220v motor.



Me too. Keep me/us posted on your motor search. I'll do the same. Hopefully one of us can find a supply so we both win.

Never thought I would ever be so impatient. I can't wait to get at least one of mine working......

What are you looking for in a 220V motor? 1ph or 3phase?  Hp? 

What is in there now?

Are you considering a VFD?

So many questions! So much to learn!


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch - you are not too far out of my way (I think).  I have a trip to Brantford very soon and will be heading through the Hamilton area if you are having issues.  Get a copy of that book on refurbishing a Bridgeport- lots of great info



I'm about 4 hours West of Hamilton Brent. 

Let me know if you ever head toward Windsor. I'm in farmland East of there.

Book was ordered yesterday. Got a copy of the older pulley version too for my Hartford.


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## Brent H (Jun 11, 2021)

@Susquatch - for Ontario - you are close!  LOL - I grew up in the Chatham area.


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## YYCHM (Jun 11, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch - for Ontario - you are close!  LOL - I grew up in the Chatham area.



Geeze..... every time you guys sling the names of places in Ont around, I have to go google them to figure out where you are talking about LOL.  Remember the parts Utilathe pickup episode


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> For sure.....and you get a mill with new bearings.   Is that a standard NEMA frame or something special?   It might be worth comparing the the cost/bother of new motor or rewind option to to single phase step up transformer + a VFD.  I did it on a smaller 440V lathe...worked really well and there usually seem to be some used single phase transformers kicking around on kijiji.  Not saying its neccesarily the way to go, but worth consideration as an option.



Can this be done the other way around? 220-1ph power to a 220 VFD to 220/440 transformer to 440-3ph motor? I know the VFD's like to feel the motor current flow to adjust their output, but I wonder if they can be bullied into just doing what they are told. 

Wondering about it because I've seen lots of three phase 440 or 550 to 230 step-down transformers around. I think they should work fine stepping the voltage up too. But I know precious little about VFD's so I have no idea if that part would work. I have a call in to TECO about the standard application. Maybe I'll ask them about this too.


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch - for Ontario - you are close!  LOL - I grew up in the Chatham area.



PERFECT. Chatham is closer still! I'm on Lake Erie SW of Chatham!


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## Susquatch (Jun 11, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Geeze..... every time you guys sling the names of places in Ont around, I have to go google them to figure out where you are talking about LOL.  Remember the parts Utilathe pickup episode



Hey, I was born in Saskatchewan SW of Humboldt. I understand the difference you are talking about. You guys have sections and quarters out west. We farm teeny tiny gardens in acres here in the east.

But I think what is funnier is to draw a line of Latitude from Saskatoon to Ontario. Ontario has polar bears and no roads that far north! In fact the line of Latitude that defines the north border of California passes by just south of me.


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## Dabbler (Jun 11, 2021)

@architect  your mill looks to be in very good shape.  Nice catch!


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## Mcgyver (Jun 12, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Can this be done the other way around? 220-1ph power to a 220 VFD to 220/440 transformer to 440-3ph motor? I know the VFD's like to feel the motor current flow to adjust their output, but I wonder if they can be bullied into just doing what they are told.
> 
> Wondering about it because I've seen lots of three phase 440 or 550 to 230 step-down transformers around. I think they should work fine stepping the voltage up too. But I know precious little about VFD's so I have no idea if that part would work. I have a call in to TECO about the standard application. Maybe I'll ask them about this too.



I know a certain amount about this, but you could quickly push me past my competence level, so don't view me as the electrical expert. 

I would say its not a good idea.  Transformers want a nice smooth sine wave to work well and the output from the VFD is not necessarily that.  The transformer if hooked up properly should not have phase shift, but I'm unclear on how or if it might affect current sensing and its not going to do well with a square wave.   There are lots of 3P transformers out there but they tend to be large, I'm not seeing a lot of advantages to this over using a 1P transformer before the VFD...they're not as plentiful used but they are out there and in my observation tend to be small and suited to a single machine application

The disadvantage of transformer then VFD is that I've not see in 600 or 440V the proliferation of cheap offshore VFD's like there is for 240V.   Buying quality brand VFD's can be expensive, especially for larger motors.  My big lathe is 7.5 HP 600V and one mill is 600 5HP....I'd love to convert everything to transformer -> VFD but the cost of VFD's for these larger motors is significant.  So far, I've cheaped out and endure the drone of the RPC 

The idea of running a step down in reverse for sure works - I do exactly that but with a RPC not a VFD.  While it would be nice to convert everything to VFD over time, my main source of 3P is a 10hp homemade RPC.  After the RPC, 240 3P goes to some machines, then I run 600 -240 3P step down in reverse to get 600V 3P for other machines


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## Susquatch (Jun 12, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I know a certain amount about this, but you could quickly push me past my competence level, so don't view me as the electrical expert.
> 
> I would say its not a good idea.  Transformers want a nice smooth sine wave to work well and the output from the VFD is not necessarily that.  The transformer if hooked up properly should not have phase shift, but I'm unclear on how or if it might affect current sensing and its not going to do well with a square wave.   There are lots of 3P transformers out there but they tend to be large, I'm not seeing a lot of advantages to this over using a 1P transformer before the VFD...they're not as plentiful used but they are out there and in my observation tend to be small and suited to a single machine application
> 
> ...



As I've said before, I'm no expert either. But I do know enough to have a pretty darn good idea of how much I don't know!

I'm not so sure that transformers like nice clean sine waves on their inputs. I think it's more like they like to PRODUCE nice clean waves on their outputs. They act a lot like big inductors (because they are coils), so they naturally smooth out signal chops and noise. I've even deliberately used transformers for that purpose in high frequency applications.

Anyway, after reading what you all have to do in your shop, I find myself thinking that I worry too much about keeping everything common in my shop. I have very little to worry about compared to you. My needs are minimal. Sure, I'd like to have lower speed available on my lathe, and I'd like all my power to be the same and available on the wall, and I'd like to minimize any conversion stuff, etc etc. But all in all my needs are simple compared to yours. A little conversion hardware here and there isn't really a big deal in the big picture. 

I love old sayings. The one that comes to mind right now is: "Never let perfection be the enemy of the good."

I think I should just get on with getting a 230V 3phase motor for the Hartford, a 230V 1PH-3PH VFD for both mills, and be happy.


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## Mcgyver (Jun 12, 2021)

I know the basic affects of an inductor, but I thought the challenges were more due to the core - efficiencies, current draw, saturation etc.  With a square wave you've got for a moment got DC going in..but I'm 100% prepared to be wrong and will leave it to others who know more about it.

Might be worth an experiment if you've got a 3P transformer?  Done safely off course....no second changes with 600V

I like VFD power not for speed control (its the poor cousin of a manual transmission) but for convernience.  Its silent and I don't have do gymnastic moves to get across the crowded shop to turn the RPC on.   I'd say for sure if you were using a VFD for speed control with a transformer between motor and VFD you'd have issues as a drop or rise in frequencing can really effect the transformer's abilities/performance


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## Chicken lights (Jun 12, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Geeze..... every time you guys sling the names of places in Ont around, I have to go google them to figure out where you are talking about LOL.  Remember the parts Utilathe pickup episode


I’m surprised someone of your....generation....doesn’t have an atlas. Heck I even have a road map for Regina


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## Susquatch (Jun 12, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I know the basic affects of an inductor, but I thought the challenges were more due to the core - efficiencies, current draw, saturation etc.  With a square wave you've got for a moment got DC going in..but I'm 100% prepared to be wrong and will leave it to others who know more about it.
> 
> Might be worth an experiment if you've got a 3P transformer?  Done safely off course....no second changes with 600V
> 
> I like VFD power not for speed control (its the poor cousin of a manual transmission) but for convernience.  Its silent and I don't have do gymnastic moves to get across the crowded shop to turn the RPC on.   I'd say for sure if you were using a VFD for speed control with a transformer between motor and VFD you'd have issues as a drop or rise in frequencing can really effect the transformer's abilities/performance



Hey, I wasn't pretending to be an expert either! Just reacting with an off the cuff thought about whether transformers need clean sinusoidal inputs. I question things like that a lot and I dream up unconventional ways to do things. It's the way I'm wired...... Lol! 

An experiment would be fun. In my younger days I would have eagerly, and perhaps foolishly, taken that on. But it would be better done by a real expert. I gotta try and stay focussed on a direct affordable path to a working mill. 

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my crazy thinking.


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## Susquatch (Jun 12, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I’m surprised someone of your....generation....doesn’t have an atlas. Heck I even have a road map for Regina



What's an Atlas? For that matter, what's a Road Map? They both sound like something my grandkids might use........


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## Dabbler (Jun 12, 2021)

Here's the problem in using a transformer between the VFD and the motor:  The VFD senses instantaneous current and back EMF to run the motor in Sensorless Vector mode, which is preferred on a milling machine.  SV mode allows the motor to develop better torque at slow speeds by doing these measurements.  

The downside of SV mode is that even leads to the motor longer than 2m can seriously affect the sensing required to do the job.

So putting a transformer between the motor and the VFD will completely screw up the SV mode.  Check with the TECO/Westinghous folks, but I'm pretty sure that they will tell you the same story.


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## Susquatch (Jun 13, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> Here's the problem in using a transformer between the VFD and the motor:  The VFD senses instantaneous current and back EMF to run the motor in Sensorless Vector mode, which is preferred on a milling machine.  SV mode allows the motor to develop better torque at slow speeds by doing these measurements.
> 
> The downside of SV mode is that even leads to the motor longer than 2m can seriously affect the sensing required to do the job.
> 
> So putting a transformer between the motor and the VFD will completely screw up the SV mode.  Check with the TECO/Westinghous folks, but I'm pretty sure that they will tell you the same story.



They say that "Necessity is the mother of invention". At the time that I posed the question, I had not found a single phase to 3-phase step-up VFD. My post was about exploring that idea. My initial words were "...I know that VFD's like to feel the motor current flow to adjust their output, but I wonder if they can be bullied into just doing what they are told." My question was about creating 3ph 400 from 1phase 220 without a Rotary Converter. In any event, the need is moot now that I see that ATO makes a relatively low cost inverter that does this natively.

I also regret selfishly hi-jacking this thread to satisfy my out of control curiosity. My apologies to the OP.


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## architect (Jun 13, 2021)

I don't mind at all the point of this thread is really just knowledge sharing and I'll post pictures or Brent's tear down here.


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## YYCHM (Jun 13, 2021)

These guys carry new and rebuilt Bridgeport parts including motors....

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/

Doesn't say what voltage the motors are?

And these guys as well.... https://bptparts.com/products/1155-0001-2hp-new-spindle-motor


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## Brent H (Jun 13, 2021)

A bit cheaper here : https://www.icai-online.com/Bridgeport-2HP-Motor-New.html


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## Brent H (Jun 13, 2021)

They pop up on Kijiji and eBay from time to time for about $300.


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## architect (Jun 13, 2021)

I'm in no rush and rather pay $300 than $1200!


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## Susquatch (Jun 13, 2021)

architect said:


> I'm in no rush and rather pay $300 than $1200!



Do you know if you even need a motor yet?


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## architect (Jun 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Do you know if you even need a motor yet?


It's 575v which my home garage isn't wired for.


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## Susquatch (Jun 13, 2021)

Aha! Same problem as I have then.


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## RobinHood (Jun 13, 2021)

Had an idea to solve the 575V problem —> replace the stator with a 240V one. Keep all the other motor parts.

But looks like new stators are no longer available from them... next...

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/037-0009


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## Brent H (Jun 13, 2021)

It’s funny @RobinHood how we think alike.  

they do make 145TY- 4 x  240 volt motors without the base plate and a shaft adapter where you fit the output shaft you need.  I had that site and lost it.  Trying to find that again.  

trailer is loaded as are some accessories for tomorrow.  Hopefully #1 son in tow for chain fall operations.  

I will offer up my opinion on the whole mill tomorrow after we get the mill back to @architect.  If I was retired, I would have bought it as a project anyway.


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## RobinHood (Jun 13, 2021)

This is a bit different, but seems to work...





http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=84079


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

Wow...... I'm impressed at the sheer ingenuity and the willingness to even try such a small motor.

But what really caught my eye is that stone wall!


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> This is a bit different, but seems to work...



I visited the link and I learned something new that the rest of you already knew. I feel kind of stupid, and it might be obvious to everyone else, but never underestimate what a green horn doesn't know. That reminds me of another great saying I love - "You don't know what you don't know".

Anyway, I have been busy looking for two speed motors and can't seem to find them. Yet both of my mills have a hi and low speed switch on the motor. So obviously, they are two speed....... Apparently NOT!

It turns out that the switch is actually a forward/reverse switch and it is used in coordination with the back gear! I would never have guessed that on my own!

The search for a motor just got a lot easier!

Now if only I could find a chart of motor mount and shaft dimensions......


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## RobinHood (Jun 14, 2021)

Oh yes, beautiful stone construction.

Here are two electric motor frame charts for reference:
https://cdn.emotorsdirect.ca/knowledge-center/Page 1 NEMA Frame type, Keyset Dimensions.pdf

and
https://cdn.emotorsdirect.ca/knowle..., Motor Dimension, Frame size information.pdf


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Oh yes, beautiful stone construction.
> 
> Here are two electric motor frame charts for reference:
> https://cdn.emotorsdirect.ca/knowledge-center/Page 1 NEMA Frame type, Keyset Dimensions.pdf
> ...



That's awesome info!

Thank you @RobinHood!

I actually looked on the emotor website but didn't see any charts like that even though it's exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks so much for that!


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## architect (Jun 14, 2021)

Took about 4 hours but @Brent H is a genius and three of us muscled the Bridgeport nto the back of my tiny garage. I'll need to spin it around 275 degrees but saving that for another day as I'm exhausted and need to make up for skipping work today!


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## Canadium (Jun 14, 2021)

You guys make it look like a lightweight toy! How did you get it down the ramp into your garage?


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## architect (Jun 14, 2021)

Some dicey moments that couldn't be captured. Photos show all the good moments where I'm able to stop and take a photo. Brent had a wench tied up to the back of trailer to slowly release the mill down the ramp. I'm not going to pretend I wasn't nervous lol I'm sure Brent was fine with all his experience.


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## YYCHM (Jun 14, 2021)

architect said:


> Some dicey moments that couldn't be captured. Photos show all the good moments where I'm able to stop and take a photo. Brent had a wench tied up to the back of trailer to slowly release the mill down the ramp. I'm not going to pretend I wasn't nervous lol I'm sure Brent was fine with all his experience.



Was it rolling on something?


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## Tom O (Jun 14, 2021)

It was starting to get interesting 
“ Brent had a wench tied up to the back of trailer “


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## YYCHM (Jun 14, 2021)

Tom O said:


> It was starting to get interesting
> “ Brent had a wench tied up to the back of trailer “



Ya, I had to read that a couple of times to.  First time I read wrench?


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 14, 2021)

I want to meet that wench, is her name Big Bertha.


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

architect said:


> Brent had a wench tied up to the back of trailer to slowly release the mill down the ramp.



I spit out my drink on that one! Had to read it twice! Still laughing!

So are you saying you rolled it off the trailer? Wow...... I would have been terrified of doing that! Of course, my wench isn't that strong......

What was it rolling on?

Bet you are all damn glad your destination wasn't a basement! You would have needed 30  wenches to stop that one from going down too fast!

I'm glad you got it done! Looks like you had time to take the head off too. Did Brent take that home with him? 

Ya, still laughing at the typo.......  You can't make stuff like that up!


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

architect said:


> I'll need to spin it around 275 degrees but saving that for another day as I'm exhausted and need to make up for skipping work today!



If I were you, I'd just tie a wench to the back wall and spin it 85 degrees the OTHER way. Only 1/3 the work. That way you could do it today........ (insert evil grin here). 

Yup, still laughing......


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## Brent H (Jun 14, 2021)

That wench was a full 1.5 tons and man could she hold her weight!  LOL. 

Our mission began at 0830 with the trailer and truck hopefully carrying enough to do the job.  I did not have the trailer from my neighbour I was hoping to use - I had his more “garden style” than his big 5 ton dump trailer.  This added to some issues - but we overcame them!!!!

The guys selling were a funny lot and I think blown away when we rotated the head 180, slipped the table into position and then secured things.   The fork driver came over and we did some adjustments and he lifted it in from under the ram.  I had wood protection and ratchet strapped his forks from opening.  We set the mill on some made up 4x4 and my son screwed things down to the trailer while we tarped  and lashed the mill down.  It is about 10 to 15 minute drive to Esmond’s and we took about 25 minutes. Some fancy backing up to the garage and we were set for phase 2……

Phase 2 ….. the drop off …. Or - let’s get this big guy rolling!!

Well, some of the change up with the smaller trailer and the way the mill sat in the trailer meant it had to turn 90 degrees so we could get the pallet jack underneath.   I had brought some 6” lag screws to bolt the mill to the 4x4’s but Esmond’s mill has the bottom coolant tray option so it is 2” deeper.  Esmond shot off to Canadian Tire and picked up some 8” x 1/2” lag screws and we were back in business.  With the mill bolted to the 4x4’s I used a 1/2 ton wench (Bretha’s smaller sister)  (1/2 ton come along) to rotate the mill.  My boy pushing also helped. 

once the pallet jack was fitted we hooked up Bertha (1-1/2 ton chain fall) to the back of the trailer and it connected via straps to the top turret of the mill and also the base. The mill could descend the trailer ramp but not tip or go nuts as it’s fall was being controlled by the chain fall pay out. 

One shite thing with the trailer ramp was the space down the middle - to fill that I cut a 3/4” sheet of plywood to bridge any gap (4”) and allot the mill to roll smoother.  With my son running the chain falls and Esmond on the pallet jack we rolled the mill down the ramp and into his garage, fairly easy peasy - there was a tense moment when I put down my Pom Poms and we needed to “adjust” the direction of mill flow, but all in all it went fine.   We used the pallet jack to get the mill back into the garage as far as we could. 

Opinion on the mill:
For  $1200 it is a steal of a deal.  The quill bearings seem fine and I sensed no play.  The head, I suspect has a worn upper and lower speed control bearing. - this may have a bit of other caused damage to the belts and maybe the drive - all can be replaced pretty easy. 
There are a few odds and ends that need some TLC and adjustments - I think a nut is off the quill feed Handle at the clutch end. The mill has some wear on the y-axis ways and x axis ways but nothing “oh my gosh”.  The table rides pretty smooth in all directions and the head and ram are all free to move.  The mill has Mitutoyo scales for a DRO - not sure if working and the power feed on the x-axis is sexy.

I didn’t get a chance to pull off the head as we were a bit late arriving and the mission ran a bit long.  My wife’s Birthday today so had to make a bit of an exit.


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## Susquatch (Jun 14, 2021)

Brent H said:


> That wench was a full 1.5 tons and man could she hold her weight!  LOL.
> 
> Our mission began at 0830 with the trailer and truck hopefully carrying enough to do the job.  I did not have the trailer from my neighbour I was hoping to use - I had his more “garden style” than his big 5 ton dump trailer.  This added to some issues - but we overcame them!!!!
> 
> ...



All awesome Brent, very well done!

Hope you didn't get your "pom-poms" dirty.

If everyone had neighbours like you, the world would be a much better place. 

Kudos to you.


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## architect (Jun 16, 2021)

What can I say, Brent is a charmer of wenches 

I was struggling to compress the vari disc and eventually discovered one of the holes is a 1/4-20. It takes a bigger nut that blocks the snap ring so I couldn't compress pass it but managed to get it out. Also not sure why my spring collar has a pin in it. OEM part doesn't have this.






There's lots of play in this upper housing and I may have found the source of the rattle. I'm not sure that brake shoe is suppose to sit misaligned, and in 3 pieces:


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## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

architect said:


> I was struggling to compress the vari disc and eventually discovered one of the holes is a 1/4-20.



That is weird. Is it possible they should both be 1/4" and someone stripped the other one and retapped it bigger? Unless I am mistaken, that is a pretty shiny looking fastener in the other photo. Perhaps it has been on the operating table before......


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## architect (Jun 17, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> That is weird. Is it possible they should both be 1/4" and someone stripped the other one and retapped it bigger? Unless I am mistaken, that is a pretty shiny looking fastener in the other photo. Perhaps it has been on the operating table before......


That's what Brent thinks is the case. They are both suppose to be 10-32. Hoping to not find any more surprises!


----------



## Brent H (Jun 17, 2021)

@architect :


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## Brent H (Jun 17, 2021)

@Susquatch : original screw size is 10-32 to remove the vari disc - probably someone threaded in a 10 - 24 and stripped one side.  Next size practical to fix it is 1/4” as #12 machine screws are almost the same size and are very rare compared to 1/4-20.

@architect : how do the bearings feel - part 23?  
Check to make sure all the little parts are there in the brake assembly:





The top of the spline looks good for the drive - how does the mating surface look?


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## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @architect :
> 
> View attachment 15432



Boy, that DOES look exactly like automotive drum brake shoes!

In fact, I bet they really ARE automotive brake shoes!


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Next size practical to fix it is 1/4” as #12 machine screws are almost the same size and are very rare compared to 1/4-20.



Yes, #12 machine screws are extremely rare. I have a set of taps and dies for #12 that were almost impossible to source. I had a need for longer screws in an application some 40 years ago and I recall one big fastener company telling me they didn't even really exist. Yet I had some that had become too short. So I had to make my own. That was before I had a lathe. I still have those dies and taps and every once in a long while I still use them.

I'd be tempted to see if I could go back to finer thread somehow though. I have no idea how hard it is to compress that spring, but finer is definitely better. Tpi is everything when compressing a spring.  I'd oil or grease them too!


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

architect said:


> That's what Brent thinks is the case. They are both suppose to be 10-32. Hoping to not find any more surprises!



If you replace the top section, perhaps you can go back to original. Otherwise I would at least modify the system to use the bigger screws. It seems downright silly to have one smaller than the other.


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## architect (Jun 17, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> If you replace the top section, perhaps you can go back to original. Otherwise I would at least modify the system to use the bigger screws. It seems downright silly to have one smaller than the other.


The original is the smaller 10-32 but someone drilled a bigger 1/4-20! I'll leave it and just tape a 1/4 to the side of my mill [emoji28]


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## Brent H (Jun 17, 2021)

@architect : I think you meant “tape” a 1/4-20 - LOL


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## architect (Jun 17, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @architect : I think you meant “tape” a 1/4-20 - LOL


Damn autocorrects on phone!!!


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## RobinHood (Jun 17, 2021)

To compress the Vari-drive spring on the motor end one is supposed to use two of the long cover SHCS. It is critical that you use two and keep them nice and parallel so that they each share the load of the spring. If you torque one down excessively, it cants the washer and jams. That’s how you strip the threads. Once they engage, give half a turn on each SHCS until they both bottom out - then the spring is fully compressed. Installation is the reverse. It’s a slow process doing it that way, but you won’t wreck anything. This is not a job for a cordless or an air ratchet.


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## architect (Jun 17, 2021)

My large friend came by with some rods and what is basically an iron spear to pivot the mill around. I'm not sure if I should leave it at this position or keep rotating until the table it parallel to the side wall/door. I don't have much room now and I'm now thinking to have the mill parallel to gain more space. The table will have more range and only block the convenience door.


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2021)

Something to keep in mind is leave yourself enough room to get the table off if need be in the future.


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## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

architect said:


> My large friend came by with some rods and what is basically an iron spear to pivot the mill around.



Iron Spear eh! LMHO! 






I think you are referring to what I call a Pinch Bar. There are probably other names for it too.

In addition to removing the table, you also need to be able to get around behind it sometimes.

More importantly, you don't want @Brent H s wench to run into it leaving the house when finished doing your chores......


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Iron Spear eh! LMHO!



Ya, I kind of got a chuckle out of spear as well LOL and thought..... I wonder where they poked that mill in order to get it to about face like that


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## Susquatch (Jun 17, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> ....... I wonder where they poked that mill in order to get it to about face like that



I don't think they poked the mill. They prolly poked Bertha the wench...... 8)


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## architect (Jun 17, 2021)

So the top bearing is *really *stuck to the cover. But I see the wave washer between there. 






There's some play in the overall vari spindle assembly when it's in the brake shoe but can't quite figure out why yet. 






The two bearings on the spindle are no good needs replacement.


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## RobinHood (Jun 17, 2021)

architect said:


> So the top bearing is *really *stuck to the cover.



If the bearing is toast - don’t be shy to destroy it to get it out. You want to protect the cover from damage, therefore you sacrifice the bearing that is broken already.



architect said:


> There's some play in the overall vari spindle assembly when it's in the brake shoe but can't quite figure out why yet.



Not exactly sure what you were expecting: the brake shoes do not locate the vari-drive. The bearings of the vari-drive do. Are you saying the bearings (bushings) are worn? The bushings are considered a consumable and need replacing from time to time. Kits are available.



architect said:


> The two bearings on the spindle are no good needs replacement.



With all the bearings and bushings in bad shape,  you might want to consider a BP head rebuild kit. It should include all the parts you need for the top half & spindle cartridge bearings are also available (not affiliated).
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/store/1478157/page/601085


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2021)

architect said:


> So the top bearing is *really *stuck to the cover. But I see the wave washer between there.......



You make me jealous. You are making great progress. I wish even one of mine was that far along..... 

I ordered the rebuild manuals that @Brent H recommended, but they are still weeks away from delivery. 

Could you please take a photo of the pages that deal with the back gear assembly? The rear pulley on my Hartford wobbles way more than I think it should and I'd like to get in there and see why it's doing that. But I'm reluctant to just start unbolting things...... 

Yes, I know that the book you have is for the BP vari-speed. But I'd bet good money that the back gear is the same on the 8spd pulley version too.


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## architect (Jun 18, 2021)




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## Dabbler (Jun 18, 2021)

here's some  videos that made my rebuild of my back gear a breeze:






The above one made my work very easy!






Neat tricks in putting it all back together.


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2021)

@Dabbler & @architect

A giant huge THANK YOU to both of you!


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## architect (Jun 18, 2021)

I found the play in the vari assembly... it appears to be missing the spindle spacer. This is probably what destroyed the bearings over time...


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2021)

architect said:


> I found the play in the vari assembly... it appears to be missing the spindle spacer. This is probably what destroyed the bearings over time...
> 
> View attachment 15481



Wow. That's amazing...... Good catch!


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> here's some videos that made my rebuild of my back gear a breeze:



Missing in that video is any reference to how much play is allowable in the big gear. 

Unless I missed it, there is only one bearing in there so some play is going to be inevitable. 

My big gear has around 1/4" that it can be moved back and forth or side to side.

How much play do you think is ok?


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## Brent H (Jun 18, 2021)

Big gear should not have play and is supported by 2 bearings:





bearings 70 should support all that.


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## Susquatch (Jun 18, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Big gear should not have play and is supported by 2 bearings:
> 
> bearings 70 should support all that.



Hi @Brent H. The question was for my Hartford Pulley Type JHead Clone. Is the back gear design the same on that one?


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## Dabbler (Jun 19, 2021)

The heads for the pulley drive and the variable drive are quite different;   The variable has a Hi-Lo selector that maintains spindle direction, where the pulley uses a back gear that reverses direction.  So very different mechanisms.


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## Susquatch (Jun 19, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> The heads for the pulley drive and the variable drive are quite different;   The variable has a Hi-Lo selector that maintains spindle direction, where the pulley uses a back gear that reverses direction.  So very different mechanisms.



OK, so is the play I have ok on the JHead design or should I rebuild the back gear?


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## Dabbler (Jun 19, 2021)

I have no play in any of the gears in my 'First' mill head.  I have not disassembled my Hartford head.


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## Susquatch (Jun 19, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I have no play in any of the gears in my 'First' mill head.  I have not disassembled my Hartford head.



OK. I'll wait for my rebuild book or a motor to arrive. But I'll bet that gear is why it was such a great price. Mixed blessing I suppose.


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## architect (Jun 24, 2021)

My brake shoes look asymmetrical but hard to say if something broke off. Maybe best to replace.




 




Motor pulley cover has scars from the motor spring. Is this a cause for concern?






Belts look clean 






Spindle pulley spins decent with no kinks. It doesn't fly with freely with it's own momentum but maybe that's normal?








Now I'm just waiting for my Princess Auto gear puller to come in to pull the bearings from the vari-disc assembly and continue into the back gear housing






I've just been cleaning all the parts until the puller comes in. May get a cheap small 2L parts washer to get all the bits nice and clean.


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

It seems nobody more experienced has jumped in so I don't mind commenting. Just keep in mind that I'm a newbie at all this so my thoughts are worth what you paid for them....... Lol! 

I don't know anything about mill brakes. But I know car brakes quite well. If they work the same, it shouldn't matter if they are a bit asymmetrical. Unlike disc brakes, drum brakes in a vehicle don't touch the drum until applied and they self center. The shoes also look fairly evenly worn. If rotating the actuator applies them evenly, with lots of room for wear, I would guess they are ok. 

Check KBC Tools for a parts washer at a decent price. That where I got mine about 20 years ago and it still works great. Buy a full 5gal pail of solvent......

Any chance that motor cover damage is related to the mismatched spring compression screws?


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## RobinHood (Jun 24, 2021)

architect said:


> brake shoes look asymmetrical but hard to say if something broke off.



A little wear on the lining, but nothing to worry about or warrant replacing. File off any sharp edges and raised burrs in the areas you circled. Check for hairline cracks. If a-ok, install. You’ll never wear those brake shoes out - they lasted this long.



architect said:


> Motor pulley cover has scars from the motor spring. Is this a cause for concern?



I would investigate that one a bit. See what could be rubbing - a key that has slipped out a bit; a bolt that is not tightened all the way. Maybe the pulley sheave slipped down on the motor shaft? Once the motor with vari-drive is back in the head, check clearance. There should be some.


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## architect (Jun 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> It seems nobody more experienced has jumped in so I don't mind commenting. Just keep in mind that I'm a newbie at all this so my thoughts are worth what you paid for them....... Lol!
> 
> I don't know anything about mill brakes. But I know car brakes quite well. If they work the same, it shouldn't matter if they are a bit asymmetrical. Unlike disc brakes, drum brakes in a vehicle don't touch the drum until applied and they self center. The shoes also look fairly evenly worn. If rotating the actuator applies them evenly, with lots of room for wear, I would guess they are ok.
> 
> ...



They sell a King 5gal washer for $80 so I'll probably grab that. Any recommendation on water based solvent and where to source a pail?


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2021)

architect said:


> They sell a King 5gal washer for $80 so I'll probably grab that. Any recommendation on water based solvent and where to source a pail?



I don't use water based cleaners. I'm no fan of the fashion trends. Generally speaking, I use diesel oil to get the crud off and simultaneously soft oil parts. I keep regular Canadian Tire Parts Cleaner in my parts cleaner unit.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-parts-cleaner-18-9-l-0381312p.html

Edit - Also, call your local NAPA Automotive Parts store. They usually stock and sell good stuff for auto mechanics. 

Lastly, I'd use deoderized Kerosene or low volatility Naptha Solvent, or even a light mineral oil long before I'd go near water based anything. I much prefer to use something that actually works.


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch...... Get a copy of that book on refurbishing a Bridgeport- lots of great info



Guess what arrived today.......?






Lots of reading to do.

Some great info in there in addition to repairing the machine. Even a short history of the Bridgeport mill! 

TECO L510 VFD is scheduled to arrive on MONDAY.

Be still my heart......


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## architect (Jun 28, 2021)

Small update and still waiting for gear puller to come from PA but it's delayed big time for some reason. Decided to pull off the quill assembly and boy I did not expect it to be so heavy. I will dissemble to give it a once over and also look into play in the quill lever that Brent pointed out during the move. Gave it a quick wipe down but will get everything cleaner once I get more time and less heat!


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## Susquatch (Jun 28, 2021)

architect said:


> Small update and still waiting for gear puller to come from PA but it's delayed big time for some reason. Decided to pull off the quill assembly and boy I did not expect it to be so heavy. I will dissemble to give it a once over and also look into play in the quill lever that Brent pointed out during the move. Gave it a quick wipe down but will get everything cleaner once I get more time and less heat!
> 
> View attachment 15818
> View attachment 15819



I recognize the parts in the top photo. I believe I am looking at the front of the ram after the head has been removed. The head spins on that surface. The photo shows how the limiter pin works. (the pin is missing on one of my mills). 

But it's not obvious to me what the gear in the middle is for?


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## Susquatch (Jun 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I recognize the parts in the top photo. I believe I am looking at the front of the ram after the head has been removed. The head spins on that surface. The photo shows how the limiter pin works. (the pin is missing on one of my mills).
> 
> But it's not obvious to me what the gear in the middle is for?



OK, I watched the disassembly video and looked at the parts breakdown. That relatively tiny gear is the "rack" gear for the left right tilt. I guess I was expecting something much bigger for that - something almost the same diameter as the ram itself. Anyway, it makes sense now.


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## architect (Jun 29, 2021)

I manage to out bid for this 220v motor today. The shaft was "repaired" but I should be able to swap my own in anyway. I searched Ebay US for this and they don't ship to Canada. So I'm asking if the seller can hang onto it and ship closer to when the border opens. I've used this sketchy package holding place at Buffalo once that worked out so will drive over once we're in the clear. It's not the cheapest but seems hard to find and the least amount of work. My girlfriend and I will make a fun road trip out of heading to Buffalo.


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2021)

What size and how much?  3 phase?


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## Brent H (Jun 29, 2021)

Sexy all around!!! You scored a 220/440 3 phase motor for what ?  A new rebuild is like $1400 USD and @architect  pulls an assembly in for less than 1/4 the cost - WOOT!!!!  Sweet!!!   Way to go!!!

(I was following on eBay - bloody intense - right up to seconds)   Amazing!!!


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## Susquatch (Jun 29, 2021)

Way t





Brent H said:


> Sexy all around!!! You scored a 220/440 3 phase motor for what ?  A new rebuild is like $1400 USD and @architect  pulls an assembly in for less than 1/4 the cost - WOOT!!!!  Sweet!!!   Way to go!!!
> 
> (I was following on eBay - bloody intense - right up to seconds)   Amazing!!!



Way to go @architect!

I like eBay auctions. I actually bought a backhoe on one 15 years ago.

I always found that "sniping" works fairly well for me. I don't make any bids at all till the very last 5 seconds and then I bid the full amount of whatever I am willing to pay. Other bidders cannot react fast enough to my surprise bid and it gives them no time to think about it. More often than not, this avoids the bidding war and often nets me quite a huge savings over what I would have had to pay in a full-on bidding war. 

But sometimes it doesn't work. I recently bid on a used US General Indicator Holder. The only one I've ever seen on ebay. I sniped at $55 US figuring it was a slam dunk only to find that it sold for $81 which means at least two other snipers were out there playing the same game. Lord knows what the winner actually sniped at......


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## trlvn (Jun 30, 2021)

architect said:


> I've used this sketchy package holding place at Buffalo once that worked out so will drive over once we're in the clear.



Pre-pandemic, I used this place in Lewistown, NY, a few times for USA-purchases:

https://www.needausaddress.com/index.php

They are about 5 minutes from the Queenston-Lewistown bridge.  Pickup fees are not bad and service is very good.  Do NOT use them to store a purchase--the fees would add up quickly.  

When I have had to pay HST, the Canadian border office at Queenston has been uncrowded and only a minor hassle.  If you have flexibility, do check on the border traffic before going.  A couple of time, it took a fair amount of time to get into the USA due to the volume of traffic at the US border station.  Remember that you have to pay a $5 toll on Queenston bridge coming back to Canada.

Craig


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## Chicken lights (Jun 30, 2021)

architect said:


> I manage to out bid for this 220v motor today. The shaft was "repaired" but I should be able to swap my own in anyway. I searched Ebay US for this and they don't ship to Canada. So I'm asking if the seller can hang onto it and ship closer to when the border opens. I've used this sketchy package holding place at Buffalo once that worked out so will drive over once we're in the clear. It's not the cheapest but seems hard to find and the least amount of work. My girlfriend and I will make a fun road trip out of heading to Buffalo.
> 
> View attachment 15833
> View attachment 15834View attachment 15835


If you need this sooner than later the right truck driver could be talked into picking this up and bringing it across the border 

Duty free, too


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## architect (Jul 5, 2021)

Got a look inside the clutch and as Brent had suspected the cir clip was loose or not seated properly so the shaft pulled right out.






Rest of the parts look fine just need some time in a parts washer (which I just got!)










Slowly taken apart the quill housing still to give everything a nice clean. Otherwise everything seem okay and just replacing minor parts.






The quill nose is REALLY stuck. I tried using two 3/16 pin punches and a pipe to try to get it off but it's really on there and I don't want to ruin anything, so I will order a cheapo pin spanner. I don't plan on doing any work on the R8 spindle (thanks to Brent for warning me!) but just want to take the assemble off to lessen the weight. This way I can lift the quill housing back up to the rest of the machine more easily. The spindle will then go in last.






Back gear housing has more dirt than grease. I'm procrastinating this part as it's just gonna be a dirty job and i wanna get parts out of the way first.






The cheapo gear puller that finally came in has really large claw ends that can't reach under things. I'm going to Princess Auto end week to pick up another cheap puller that will hopefully let me get the bearings off the vari disc assemblies.


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## PeterT (Jul 5, 2021)

Be careful with the nose cap. If the real Bridgeport is anything like the Taiwan clone Bridgeport, its a left hand thread & you might be tightening it. 
Also does yours have a set screw slightly up the quill barrel? That has to come out first. It engages against the threads.
(pics from PM 935 mill manual).


----------



## architect (Jul 5, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Be careful with the nose cap. If the real Bridgeport is anything like the Taiwan clone Bridgeport, its a left hand thread & you might be tightening it.
> Also does yours have a set screw slightly up the quill barrel? That has to come out first. It engages against the threads.
> (pics from PM 935 mill manual).
> 
> View attachment 15938



Thanks for the tips. The original Brighports should be right hand thread so that's what I've been trying. I have removed the set screw as well. I'm also not yanking at it with all my force, again, because I'm afraid of damage. The entire quill housing is lifting off from the ground from my current force already. I could use a rubber mallet with my current setup. I'd really rather not buy a pin spanner just for this as I don't have other uses for it otherwise, and also just seem really hard to source.


----------



## Brent H (Jul 5, 2021)

Make sure you actually got the set screw and not just one of them.  Bridgeport has a habit of locking set screws with a hollow set screw.  You may think you have the set screw but there could be another.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 5, 2021)

architect said:


> The quill nose is REALLY stuck. I tried using two 3/16 pin punches and a pipe to try to get it off but it's really on there and I don't want to ruin anything, so I will order a cheapo pin spanner. The cheapo gear puller that finally came in has really large claw ends that can't reach under things. I'm going to Princess Auto end week to pick up another cheap puller that will hopefully let me get the bearings off the vari disc assemblies.



Haha! We seem to be following similar paths...... 

I just received a spanner from Amazon that I bought for the same purpose. Total junk. It's going back.  I'm planning to make my own spanner for this job with some grade 5 Bolts chucked in the lathe to make nose pins and threaded into a home made flat plate handle. Once I get the cap off, I'll be drilling new holes in it a little bigger and a little further from the spindle so I can get some decent metal in there to hold the pins. Then I will grind a small groove in the quill for access. Why all the trouble? Cuz I wanna be able to easily change the R8 alignment pin. AND I DO NOT LIKE the way that cap comes off right now!!!

Beware of cheap pullers. Jaws break, threads strip, arms bend. In my mind, a really good puller is a great investment. After many disappointments, I finally broke down and bought a really good one. It is a combo 180 (two arms) and 120 (three arms) that has not failed me (yet). I've used it to pull/push huge 2" pins on farm equipment and on my backhoe. Just sayin, buy a good one and only cry once.


----------



## PeterT (Jul 5, 2021)

Don't laugh at Mr. Woody, it worked haha. I had read where guys were having to grind the pin ends of those expanding spanner type wrenches to engage properly but this might be a function of the wrench model and/or 935 mill. Yes 2 set screws used for the collet guide, dog point & retention. The reason I was in there to begin with. You don't want it protruding too far in or it can jam up in the R8 slot.


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## architect (Jul 5, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Don't laugh at Mr. Woody, it worked haha. I had read where guys were having to grind the pin ends of those expanding spanner type wrenches to engage properly but this might be a function of the wrench model and/or 935 mill. Yes 2 set screws used for the collet guide, dog point & retention. The reason I was in there to begin with. You don't want it protruding too far in or it can jam up in the R8 slot.



LOL! Well good to see that worked!

Hmm the parts diagram showed just one set screw?










I've been yanking on it after removing just this one screw, and maybe have even notice the nose cap move.... hope I didn't jam anything.

EDIT: Okay I realize you're talking about the inside collet with the two set screws. I'm not even there yet


----------



## PeterT (Jul 5, 2021)

Ya sorry and I shouldn't assume a 935 is a Bridgeport, it was just more of  generic cautionary FYI in case you didn't have the exact parts manual.
On my 935 there is this setscrew that engages the nose cap threads. That just rubs me the wrong way on many levels but I put mine in lightly with a drop of blue Loktite. I assume its to prevent nose cap spin off.
Then with the cap removed you see the 2 bonus point set screws for collet slot.


----------



## PeterT (Jul 6, 2021)

FYI Keith Fenner is back on Buffy rebuild as of late, might be some tidbits in there even if the BP model is different. The 2017 spindle vid definitely shows ~ 6:00 lefty loosey on the nut. Huh, learned something new. I just assumed Taiwan cloned USA machines directly unless there was a cheaper way to do it. Maybe there is a specific reason for one direction or another, but one would think would be the same opinion.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

PeterT said:


> FYI Keith Fenner is back on Buffy rebuild as of late, might be some tidbits in there even if the BP model is different. The 2017 spindle vid definitely shows ~ 6:00 lefty loosey on the nut. Huh, learned something new. I just assumed Taiwan cloned USA machines directly unless there was a cheaper way to do it. Maybe there is a specific reason for one direction or another, but one would think would be the same opinion.




A left hand thread actually makes sense if you have a nose cap that is a tight fit to the spindle. In that case, a turning spindle could unscrew the cap - especially if it gets a bit hot.

Neither of my mills are that tight a fit and neither are left hand. 

However, both caps have a fairly big recess for the set screw so there is no way that they are likely to unscrew.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Don't laugh at Mr. Woody, it worked haha.



Hahahaha! Too funny..... If this were Facebook, they would censure you! 

Ya, the ends on the one I just returned were too fat and one of the pins was twisted. But I agree, for this job, wood is prolly more than adequate. Especially if the pins are made from longer Bolts - as they appear to be in your photos. I've made quite a few fixtures out of wood over the years. My farm house is nestled into a clearing in the old Carolinian  Forest that runs along the North shore of Lake Erie. Plenty of very strong dead ash, walnut, oak, hard maple, and black cherry to make such things with. If I try a wee bit, they could even be beautiful. 

Thank you for sharing this idea!


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## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Make sure you actually got the set screw and not just one of them.  Bridgeport has a habit of locking set screws with a hollow set screw.  You may think you have the set screw but there could be another.



Wish you told me that back when I was trying to get my R8 alignment pin out. I wasted a whole day on that. My wife was the one who spotted it.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

architect said:


> The cheapo gear puller that finally came in has really large claw ends that can't reach under things. I'm going to Princess Auto end week to pick up another cheap puller that will hopefully let me get the bearings off the vari disc assemblies.





Susquatch said:


> Beware of cheap pullers. Jaws break, threads strip, arms bend. In my mind, a really good puller is a great investment. After many disappointments, I finally broke down and bought a really good one. It is a combo 180 (two arms) and 120 (three arms) that has not failed me (yet). I've used it to pull/push huge 2" pins on farm equipment and on my backhoe. Just sayin, buy a good one and only cry once.



Further to the use of pullers - sometimes I find that the Jaws will not grab even if they do fit. When this happens, I wrap fence wire around them (acting like barrel bands) to hold them in place before I put any significant torque on the puller tensioner. That is in fact what I had to do to get the pulley off of my Hartford Mill. The pulley grooves acted like ramps and the Jaws kept slipping.

You can use almost anything. Even rope should work. I just happen to have lots of fence wire.


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## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

PeterT said:


> On my 935 there is this setscrew that engages the nose cap threads. That just rubs me the wrong way on many levels but I put mine in lightly with a drop of blue Loktite.



On my Bridgeport and my Hartford, there is a drilled recess in the threads so the set screw does not touch the threads. 

That means that you have to be careful to align the cap and the quill so the set screw actually engages the recess and not the threads, but it's a piece of cake to do. You could simply add the recess. So the lock tight and the careful light torque are not needed. 

My Hartford also has a groove in the end of the quill so that the two R8 set screws are more easily accessed. I plan to add the groove to my Bridgeport too. 






As I stated earlier, the groove could become a dirt trap which could get into the threads. However, it would be easy to make something to fit it or even to stuff it with some Kleenex. It's an awesome convenience and worth some effort. I plan to make a groove like that on my Bridgeport too.


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## architect (Jul 8, 2021)

Inspired by @PeterT I did a quick/rough/awful version with some plywood. I have to keep one fit on the housing while I pull on the plywood. It would only move 10 degrees at a time. Manged to get it a 1/4 turn and started to slowly see a crack. I sprayed some WD40 in there and it's dripping out all dirty. I also notice after turning the nose that the spinning the spindle sleeve seems more rough, and making some scrapping noise. Not sure if it's the bearings or what? Hope I'm not ruining anything ... 

My wood isn't drilled precisely so the taps are skewing and burring the edge of the opening. So I think I will order some pin spanners. Any recommendations? I bought this one but realized the head is way too big:


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

architect said:


> Any recommendations? I bought this one but realized the head is way too big:



I got the exact same one on Amazon. Pure junk. Arms are too fat and one was cocked sideways at 20 degrees or so. It was already in return mail when I read your note. I prolly won't buy another. I like the wooden design and if it ever fails me, I'll make my own steel version specific for the job. I did like the principle of the junk version though with a hinge and threaded in Pins so I may copy that design, but fix the quality. 

Didn't have your experience with either mill. Both came off easily once I removed the set pin. Getting them back on seems to be the hard part!

I wouldn't worry about buggering up the holes a bit. If you wanna see a mess, look at the photo I posted of the nose on my Hartford. You will also notice that the previous owner just drilled new holes 90 degrees from the old ones and spaced them out away from the spindle at the same time. I'll do that on my Bridgeport too.

I doubt you hurt anything but beats me why that happened. Some dirt in there?


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

Note the above was edited after you saw it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

architect said:


> Inspired by @PeterT I did a quick/rough/awful version with some plywood. I have to keep one fit on the housing while I pull on the plywood. It would only move 10 degrees at a time.



I think your pins are simply too long. Cut a hole in the wood so it slips over the nose. That should stiffen it up.


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## architect (Jul 8, 2021)

@Susquatch yup I looked at the spanner for 5min after realizing it didn't fit and put it right back in the Amazon mailing box lol. It's going back this weekend. 

Yeah I remove the set screw no problem but the nose is just really, really stuck. I don't intend to take apart the spindle. I just want to take the nose cap to clean it up and figure out where the groove is to properly line up the set screw again.

Yeah, I may just take my jig saw and rough out a hole to fit the spindle nose in. I'll drill smaller holes so the end of my pin punch fits snug.

Did you remove bearing from your vari-disc assembly yet? I tried a bunch of Princess Auto pullers and none of them can are shaped well enough to grab. I'm really tempted to just splurge and get the Posi Lock pullers like that guide suggested, but can't tell if I need a 4" or 6" model...


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## architect (Jul 8, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Don't laugh at Mr. Woody, it worked haha. I had read where guys were having to grind the pin ends of those expanding spanner type wrenches to engage properly but this might be a function of the wrench model and/or 935 mill. Yes 2 set screws used for the collet guide, dog point & retention. The reason I was in there to begin with. You don't want it protruding too far in or it can jam up in the R8 slot.



Do you have dimensions of the the pin holes and spindle circle? I will attempt my own quick version of this.


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

architect said:


> @Susquatch Yeah I remove the set screw no problem but the nose is just really, really stuck. I don't intend to take apart the spindle. I just want to take the nose cap to clean it up and figure out where the groove is to properly line up the set screw again.
> 
> Yeah, I may just take my jig saw and rough out a hole to fit the spindle nose in. I'll drill smaller holes so the end of my pin punch fits snug.
> 
> Did you remove bearing from your vari-disc assembly yet? I tried a bunch of Princess Auto pullers and none of them can are shaped well enough to grab. I'm really tempted to just splurge and get the Posi Lock pullers like that guide suggested, but can't tell if I need a 4" or 6" model...



At first, I marked my nose with a sharpie and then after I accidentally rubbed off the sharpie, I marked my nose with a punch so I'll always know where the set screw belongs. I did the same thing with all my lathe chucks. Basically I install them in each lug position until I find the one with the least runout on the chuck itself. Then I mark it so it always goes in the same place. 

If you don't have big Forstner bits, try putting a boring bit into your drill press or even a hand drill instead. Makes a much cleaner hole than a jig saw. Although it prolly doesn't matter..... Lol! 

Funny, no I have not pulled any bearings on anything yet. I don't plan to until I can figure out how to pull them easily! We are in sync once again! 

I dont like the idea of drilling the case. And like you, I have not found a suitable puller. So right now, I'm thinking I might have to make something. I'm thinking about making a shouldered sleeve on my lathe that will go into the bearing but stops at the shoulder. Then inside threading it for my slide hammer, then splitting it in half. You stick the two halves into the bearing so the shoulder is on the other side, then screw in the threaded rod of the slide hammer. The rod holds the halves tight against the bearing. A few whacks and it should come out. I can make collars to fit any bearing as long as they are open on the other side to take the shoulder.


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## PeterT (Jul 8, 2021)

Here you go. Handle is shortened to fit on paper. And no guarantee whatever spacing they used on a 935 matches a real BP. I thought maybe pin circle was 58mm but often times these machines are a mashup of imperial & metric dimensions. Or maybe the circle is 58mm and they missed by a little in which case, trust the physical measurement. Anyways I just printed this, glued it on the ply using manual mode center punch to insert close fitting pins & it worked out. Another good reason for wood is you don't feel so bad if it doesn't work out on first try. Good luck


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

architect said:


> I'm really tempted to just splurge and get the Posi Lock pullers like that guide suggested, but can't tell if I need a 4" or 6" model...



Wow! Those ARE expensive! I don't think I'll be doing that.

I'm also not convinced the bearings have a lip that can be grabbed with one of those or that the leadscrew won't damage the housing.

Anyway, the principle is similar to what I was thinking - just I was going to grab the bearing from the backside with a little collar.

Just, I'm not sure there is enough space back there or that I wouldn't damage the wave washer.

So, how about the same idea but with no collar so that the threaded sleeve tightens against the inside of the bearing instead? Think of it a bit like a pipe stretcher/expander. Except there is no way the bearing can be expanded so it will just get tight. My guess is that it won't take much.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 8, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> At first, I marked my nose with a sharpie and then after I accidentally rubbed off the sharpie, I marked my nose with a punch so I'll always know where the set screw belongs. I did the same thing with all my lathe chucks. Basically I install them in each lug position until I find the one with the least runout on the chuck itself. Then I mark it so it always goes in the same place.
> 
> If you don't have big Forstner bits, try putting a boring bit into your drill press or even a hand drill instead. Makes a much cleaner hole than a jig saw. Although it prolly doesn't matter..... Lol!
> 
> ...


Can you post a picture or point me to a post with the picture of what you’re trying to pull?


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## RobinHood (Jul 8, 2021)

@architect , you could also drill a hole 1/2 way between the pin holes for a 3/4” wooden or aluminum dowel. Draw it up in a 3/4” collet. It will greatly stabilize your tool and will force the wooden handle to rotate about the spindle axis - which is the same center of rotation for the ring.

The ring is probably tight because the threads are a bit mashed as someone prior to you forgot to remove the second set screw…


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Can you post a picture or point me to a post with the picture of what you’re trying to pull?



See attached. It's the bottom bearing for the back gear.


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> @architect , The ring is probably tight because the threads are a bit mashed as someone prior to you forgot to remove the second set screw…



I thought there was only one sscrew in this case. But it does seem that two screws are used here and there randomly. 

After thinking about it some more, my guess is that someone tightened the set screw on the threads instead of aligning the screw with the corresponding screw relief first. That would mash up the threads too.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 9, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> See attached. It's the bottom bearing for the back gear.
> 
> View attachment 16000





There’s a bunch of different companies that make similar bearing pullers but that’s the basic concept. I’ve posted pics of mine on here before but you get the idea
It sounded similar to what you were describing making


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

Here are some bearing pullers available at Grainger.











Both are sort of like what I had come up with in the dark recesses of my mind, except mine would be a custom fit to a given bearing. And mine would be hundreds if times stronger because there are no arms to bend or deform.

All require that the bearing not sit flush in its recess such that the "hooks" can grab the back of the bearing.

I'm gunna wait until I have a replacement bearing in my hands that I can lay an eyeball on before I decide exactly what to try first.

The nice thing about my idea is that you can always cut the back collar off and use a couple of shims to create a compression fit instead. But I'm pretty confident that it will work especially after I saw these and had a good look at the way that those Posi-Lock pullers work.


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 16001There’s a bunch of different companies that make similar bearing pullers but that’s the basic concept. I’ve posted pics of mine on here before but you get the idea
> It sounded similar to what you were describing making



I didn't see your post till after I pressed send.

I actually already have a bearing puller like those. They are designed to remove pressed on bearings and require access to the back of the bearing. Unless I am mistaken, we don't have access in this case. If we do, then @architect and I are both fussing over nothing. 

Machinery repair advocates drilling holes through the housing to insert punches through. However, I couldn't find a demo and I am very leery of the whole idea of doing that. 

Could you provide a link to the earlier post you mentioned?


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I’ve posted pics of mine on here before but you get the idea





Susquatch said:


> Could you provide a link to the earlier post you mentioned?



Never mind. I believe I found the post you referred to.

You guys should all try farming. You would not believe what I have to do sometimes to get things apart......

Last year I had to pull the wing hinge pin on a set of 24ft disks. The idiot I bought it from never greased it. It froze in the sleeve and the frame welds broke. The pin is 3" in diameter and about 18" long. The frame is 1" plate. 

I started by trying to use a regular three jaw puller. NFW. So I borrowed a giant puller. Still no way. So I drilled and tapped the back side and put a big home made slide hammer on it while pushing on the other side with the puller. Still NFW.  Next was acetylene torch to heat the sleeve. Flame wasn't big enough so upgraded my torch tip to burn a whole tank of acetylene in 1 minute (not really, but it was a BIG tip). Still NFW.

I succeeded on my last attempt by drilling all the way through the pin and installing water fittings so I could run cold water through the pin while my bride heated the sleeve with a big raspberry torch, with about 10 tons on the puller ( its rating ), and an 8 pound slide hammer on the back side to shake things up. When that SOB let go, the guys in Calgary thought Ontario had disappeared off the map. 

My wife needed two weeks vacation after that........


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## YYCHM (Jul 9, 2021)

How does one drill a hole through a 18" long pin?


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## RobinHood (Jul 9, 2021)

The problem seems to be the “bearing in a blind hole”: Get a bar that is a snug, sliding fit in the bearing ID. Pack the bore full with putty or thick grease (even wet newspaper works - not as well though). Start the bar in the bearing ID. Cover the bearing with a rag. Hammer the bar into the grease filled bore. As the putty/grease gets bushed under the bearing, it will lift it out of the blind hole by hydraulic force. You may have to add more putty/grease as the bearing starts to come out and the volume of space increases behind it. Should work to get it out. I prefer grease over putty as it is easier to clean the bearing afterwards - in case you are going to re-use it.

Search “removing bearing from a blind bore” for more info / videos.


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## architect (Jul 9, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> The ring is probably tight because the threads are a bit mashed as someone prior to you forgot to remove the second set screw…



I thought there was only one screw holding the nose cover?


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## YYCHM (Jul 9, 2021)

architect said:


> I thought there was only one screw holding the nose cover?



Did you find another?


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> How does one drill a hole through a 18" long pin?



Actually drilling the holes was the easy part! The pin already had 1/8" grease journals about 6" long in it from both ends with a zirc fitting in each. I have a range of 12" long bits so I just started small at 1/4" from each side and prayed that the holes would meet in the middle. They did - prolly cuz the oem holes were well done. Once through with 1/4", then drilled again with a 3/8, and then a half. Then drilled in sideways at the weldment for a water fitting. The slide hammer and puller plugged the end holes. Cold water went in and mostly steam came out!


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> The problem seems to be the “bearing in a blind hole”: Get a bar that is a snug, sliding fit in the bearing ID. Pack the bore full with putty or thick grease (even wet newspaper works - not as well though). Start the bar in the bearing ID. Cover the bearing with a rag. Hammer the bar into the grease filled bore. As the putty/grease gets bushed under the bearing, it will lift it out of the blind hole by hydraulic force. You may have to add more putty/grease as the bearing starts to come out and the volume of space increases behind it. Should work to get it out. I prefer grease over putty as it is easier to clean the bearing afterwards - in case you are going to re-use it.
> 
> Search “removing bearing from a blind bore” for more info / videos.



This is a VERY COOL IDEA! I LIKE IT!

I would think the original shaft would work too.

I've used a similar trick to remove things stuck in a bore. But never thought about doing it in this case. I guess my only concern would be leaks through the bearing.....


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## Susquatch (Jul 9, 2021)

architect said:


> I thought there was only one screw holding the nose cover?



I "believe" (from reading lots about the R8 alignment pin) that there is "usually" only one screw for the cap. And "usually" two for the R8 alignment pin. That's certainly how both my mills are.

However, I seen plenty of posts articles and videos that all say that the number of set screws on the Bridgeport mill and its Clones from one end to the other cannot be taken for granted. I believe the rule is to always check.

But I'll bet your issue is a screw that got tightened onto threads instead of the recessed hole and that buggered up the threads.


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## John Conroy (Jul 10, 2021)

This style of blind hole bearing puller might work for this application. Very common to have blind hole bearings in automotive transmissions and transfer cases.


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## Susquatch (Jul 10, 2021)

John Conroy said:


> This style of blind hole bearing puller might work for this application. Very common to have blind hole bearings in automotive transmissions and transfer cases.



That's almost exactly what I imagined making myself on my lathe. The only real difference is that I was going to use a slide hammer instead of the pusher rams.

But right now, I'm planning to try the Hydraulic grease trick first!


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## architect (Jul 10, 2021)

My generous friend mocked up serious plywood tool for me based on @PeterT design. It's working but still only bit by bit and even standing and putting my own weight on the housing can't get it to turn. Given, I'm a small dude, but still. This thing is really, really stuck. Need the bigger friend to come over and stand on housing...

I'm wondering if the inner set screw wasn't actually put in properly and catching on the nose cover? I wonder how they even managed to get the cover on at all...


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## architect (Jul 10, 2021)

Peaked into the nose cap set screw hole and threads don't look so bad but hard to say. Sprayed some WD40 just for the heck of it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 10, 2021)

architect said:


> My generous friend mocked up serious plywood tool for me based on @PeterT design. It's working but still only bit by bit and even standing and putting my own weight on the housing can't get it to turn. Given, I'm a small dude, but still. This thing is really, really stuck. Need the bigger friend to come over and stand on housing...
> 
> I'm wondering if the inner set screw wasn't actually put in properly and catching on the nose cover? I wonder how they even managed to get the cover on at all...
> 
> ...



Just get @Brent H to bring Bertha over. She will spin it off with her bare hands.

Ya, it's possible that the 2nd R8 set screw has backed off enough to contact the threading. If so, I think you just have to grunt it off and risk buggering up more threads. No other way I can see. You can always buy a new nose piece. 

But I'm still sticking to the theory that the primary set screw for the nose itself has buggered up the threads cuz it was not installed into the thread  recess. This is actually worse cuz it's the quill threads that will be buggered. 

Very nice looking tool. If you have a small gap, try some penetrating oil.

If all else fails, try lightly heating the nose cap. No need for Acetylene, a regular Propane torch will prolly do it. You just want to expand the nose cap a bit.

Also you could try back N forth like working a tap.


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## Susquatch (Jul 10, 2021)

architect said:


> Peaked into the nose cap set screw hole and threads don't look so bad but hard to say. Sprayed some WD40 just for the heck of it.
> View attachment 16023



If my theory is correct, the threads will only be messed up where the lock screw was.

Frankly, I don't find wd40 to be a very good penetrating oil. Even a light oil works better. Everyone loves the stuff. I'm not a huge fan.

WD originally meant Water Displacing. It does work decent for that purpose. But it doesn't last as a corrosion inhibitor or as a long term lubricant. As a penetrant it down right sucks. Even the company acknowledges that and they do sell a pretty decent penetrating oil.


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## YYCHM (Jul 10, 2021)

Are you sure you're turning it the right direction?  Have you tried the opposite direction?

No insult intended...

Remount the housing on the machine, then you won't need your friend to stand on it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 10, 2021)

Also, can you bolt the assembly back onto the head temporarily? That might give you the leverage you need.

Too bad I don't live closer. I'm no BERTHA, and I am old, but I'm a VERY BIG fellow. Partly why my friends call me Susquatch.


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## Tom O (Jul 10, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Are you sure you're turning it the right direction?  Have you tried the opposite direction?
> 
> No insult intended...
> 
> Remount the housing on the machine, then you won't need your bigger friend to stand on it.


Looking at the thread through the hole it looks to me like a normal righty tightly thread.


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## architect (Jul 10, 2021)

I believe I have the right direction and looks like right handed thread  I can see it opening up with a little gap now! Doesn't take a lot of strength just awkward at this point. I need to really hold down the housing while another arm reaches at the end of the 4ft plywood and lever it it.

Yes, mounting it back on the housing makes sense. But I'm also short and don't have much room so putting it up higher causes other clearance issues!


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## Susquatch (Jul 10, 2021)

If all else fails, I'd also try drilling a hole into the side of the cap. Not all the way through but enough to be able to use a pin spanner wrench that you can whack at with a small hammer. A home made version using your lathe could even wrap all the way around the cap, have two holes and two pins installed after the cap wrench is on. That would give you way better control than an end wrench could ever have no matter what its made of.

Hmmmmm..... I like that idea so much that I might modify my own nose cap that way and make a wrench like that for myself! Heck, if I drill the tool for the pin while it's mounted to the cap, I can drill right into the cap at the same time and not worry about pin alignment. Two Bolts for handles on the tool would give you plenty of leverage and something to tap on too.


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## PeterT (Jul 10, 2021)

architect said:


> I'm wondering if the inner set screw wasn't actually put in properly and catching on the nose cover? I wonder how they even managed to get the cover on at all...
> 
> View attachment 16021



That's exactly what I was wondering - if outer set screw C has migrated outward or somehow installed just a but proud & catching the nose cap ID. I cant think of any way to remove them from inside the quill unless they happen to be dead loose, nothing to wrench onto. Lets think happy thoughts for now & assume its the main nose cap threads or some crap has migrated down.

Gentle heat around the thread area might work, sometimes just a bit of expansion is enough to get rotation started & break the rust glue or whatever is holding it firm. I'm not sure if there is a rubber seal in there or not. Trouble is the heat will go right through the mated threads & expand the nose cap almost as fast. I almost wonder if you wouldn't be better off with a strap wrench around the cap & snipe bar for leverage & try & give it a jerk vs pure torque applied through the pin wrench?

When I assembled mine I put a thin smear of anti-seize on the threads thinking I was anal, now I'm kind of glad. But that set screw against the threads business has always bugged me. It should have a deformable lead slug or something as someone mentioned.


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## Susquatch (Jul 11, 2021)

PeterT said:


> When I assembled mine I put a thin smear of anti-seize on the threads thinking I was anal, now I'm kind of glad. But that set screw against the threads business has always bugged me. It should have a deformable lead slug or something as someone mentioned.



You mentioned this before.

My nose cap DOES NOT HAVE a set screw AGAINST THE THREADS. The set screw has a particular spot on the nose cap threads that it is designed to fit into. It is a recessed pocket in the threads of the quill. Here is a photo.






For now, I have a sharpie mark on the nose cap so I know where the recess is so I can align it with the set screw on the quill. I will put a punch mark there after I decide which mill to keep. 

I totally agree with your concern though. It bothers the daylights out of me to tighten any lock screw against any threads too. And no offense intended, but I don't like the lead ball approach either. 

Any time I have ever encountered that, I have tried to design something to do the same thing without the screw mashing against threads. I've been doing this with my stuff for over 40 years. Ever since the first time I got seriously bitten by this design flaw. And that's what I call it - a design flaw.  Set screws should NEVER engage in the threads of anything! 

My favorite method is to use split rings where I can. These are basically a regular lock ring with a split in it. The split is then drilled side-to-side and then tapped for a small Allen screw which draws the split together tightening the lock ring in place.

Here is an example. The original lock ring on the right and the replacement on the left.






Of course you can't really do that with the nose cap. But I'm fine with the recessed pocket for the set screw.


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## Dabbler (Jul 11, 2021)

I'm a fan of split rings as well!


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## Brent H (Jul 11, 2021)

For the Bridgeport: original from the factory the end cap was tightened on and then a recess drilled into the spindle (as you can see on the nose cap previously pictured). Depending on the age of the mill and the repairs made, there may be several “detents” drilled for the location of the set screw. 
The nose cap should be snug and the set screw just needs to be in place to lock the thread but certainly not to mash it.

  If you tighten the set screw “solid” on to the threads you will ever so slightly warp the spindle and it will work like crap in the last couple inches of travel. 

In this application, as a lock, I see nothing wrong with the design or function.  For my particular mill (I have the QC 30 design)there is no real stress or strain on the nose piece to cause concern even if the screw was not there. 

Be careful using the original “detent” as a “tighten up to here” spot as it may or may not work out if you change bearings.


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## Susquatch (Jul 11, 2021)

Brent H said:


> For the Bridgeport: original from the factory the end cap was tightened on and then a recess drilled into the spindle (as you can see on the nose cap previously pictured). Depending on the age of the mill and the repairs made, there may be several “detents” drilled for the location of the set screw.
> The nose cap should be snug and the set screw just needs to be in place to lock the thread but certainly not to mash it.
> 
> If you tighten the set screw “solid” on to the threads you will ever so slightly warp the spindle and it will work like crap in the last couple inches of travel.
> ...



Great advice as always @Brent H! 

Will do! 

That said, I still don't like set screws bearing on threads. It's just the whole principle of it even if it is ok. But I do like the retention detent/recess just fine. I doubt I'll be into the spindle bearings even if I do keep the Bridgeport, but you never know....... Forewarned is forearmed. 

Thanks!


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## PeterT (Jul 11, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> My nose cap DOES NOT HAVE a set screw AGAINST THE THREADS. The set screw has a particular spot on the nose cap threads that it is designed to fit into. It is a recessed pocket in the threads of the quill. Here is a photo.



I think there are too many Bridgeport spindle nose caps being discussed for my simple brain so I'll be quiet now LoL. I assumed pic in post #153 was the stuck troublemaker & to my eye, peeking through the hole, does not look like it has a recess drill for the set screw like your pic - unless the nose cap has somehow been rotated beyond that location or something preventing it from arriving to that location. Good luck boys.


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## architect (Jul 11, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I think there are too many Bridgeport spindle nose caps being discussed for my simple brain so I'll be quiet now LoL. I assumed pic in post #153 was the stuck troublemaker & to my eye, peeking through the hole, does not look like it has a recess drill for the set screw like your pic - unless the nose cap has somehow been rotated beyond that location or something preventing it from arriving to that location. Good luck boys.



My pic is after I've rotated my cap 1/4 turn already so the recess would not be visible. I'll take a final photo after I manage to get the cap off.


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## architect (Jul 12, 2021)

Was able to exert more force with the help of my friend standing on the house. But the nose cover has defeated the plywood-Excalibur... I have been stuck on this for too long and will just come back to in the future once it's all reassembled again.


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## JamHandy (Jul 12, 2021)

So what I want to ask is, does the set screw guide for the tool holder look sheared off? Or does it look like it’s backed out flush with the bore and pressing against the nose piece threads?


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## Brent H (Jul 12, 2021)

Sheared clean off - R8 collet must have spun - should still be able to get the nut off - just might need a bigger boat - er….tool … LOL.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 12, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Sheared clean off - R8 collet must have spun - should still be able to get the nut off - just might need a bigger boat - er….tool … LOL.


Could you carefully cut a slit up the sides to take pressure off?


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## Susquatch (Jul 12, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Sheared clean off - R8 collet must have spun - should still be able to get the nut off - just might need a bigger boat - er….tool … LOL.



Just send Bertha over to help him out........


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## Susquatch (Jul 12, 2021)

architect said:


> ..... I have been stuck on this for too long and will just come back to in the future once it's all reassembled again.



I'd be scared of waiting that long. What if you need to take it all apart again to do that?

I'd be mounting it back on the head right now if I were you so you can get some leverage on it.

Also, it's apparent to me that you need to make a steel tool on your lathe. A round collar to barely clear the spindle with drilled and tapped holes to take 1/4" grade 5  Bolts with the noses turned down to fit the spanner holes, and two 1/2" tapped holes on the sides to take regular 1/2" bolts that serve as handles would get the job done.

Perhaps easier would be a big nut chucked on the lathe and then bore the center out to clear the spindle nose. Then drill and tap for 1/4" grade 5 Bolts as above. The difference being the ability to put a big wench (pun intended) on it! Big nuts like that are available at most farm supply outlets. 

I can't wait till we can use our own mills to make stuff like that! 

Let me know if that description isn't clear enough and I'll sketch it up for you.

Also thinking that might take a hammer obviating the need to put it back on your mill head....


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## architect (Jul 12, 2021)

The quill assembly slips right out from the housing without needing disassembly so should be fine. I also mean just continue to go through the rest of the quill housing work.

The leverage isn't the issue. You can see that we've applied so much force that the plywood has failed. JamHandy will rig a metal tool together. And if THAT fails, then I'm taking the quill assembly to see Brent!


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## Susquatch (Jul 12, 2021)

architect said:


> The quill assembly slips right out from the housing without needing disassembly so should be fine. I also mean just continue to go through the rest of the quill housing work.
> 
> The leverage isn't the issue. You can see that we've applied so much force that the plywood has failed. JamHandy will rig a metal tool together. And if THAT fails, then I'm taking the quill assembly to see Brent!



Sounds like a plan.

Wish you lived closer. I'd be more than happy to help. I'm sure I'd also learn things in the process.

Gunna make myself that big nut tool just cuz I can. Prolly don't need it - especially AFTER I make it - but it'll be good preventative insurance......

Waiting on a motor and a rebuild kit from H&W for my step pulley head. So good time to make a cool tool.


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## architect (Jul 12, 2021)

He is my handy neighborhood/friend who just made an account 

I'll drop by to say hi sometime if I make it out your way


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## cuslog (Jul 12, 2021)

Kinda late to the party here but thought I'd show a couple pictures of a tool I made to get my spindle nose off - maybe it'll help someone next time. Just a little different pin wrench - gotta make it before you take the mill apart (or on your spare mill). Thick enough to get a big pipe wrench on. SHCScrews spaced appropriately and turned down to correct dia. Trap the tool between the quill nose and your vise or the table - insert a couple business cards under so you don't scar vise or table. Remove horizontal set screw as well as the grub screw. Mine was right hand thread (chinese clone) others could be left so don't get too angry with it too soon. Now you've got something trapped in there that won't slip and you can really get some force on it without damaging anything. Save it for next time !


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## Susquatch (Jul 13, 2021)

cuslog said:


> Kinda late to the party here but thought I'd show a couple pictures of a tool I made to get my spindle nose off - maybe it'll help someone next time. Just a little different pin wrench - gotta make it before you take the mill apart (or on your spare mill). Thick enough to get a big pipe wrench on. SHCScrews spaced appropriately and turned down to correct dia. Trap the tool between the quill nose and your vise or the table - insert a couple business cards under so you don't scar vise or table. Remove horizontal set screw as well as the grub screw. Mine was right hand thread (chinese clone) others could be left so don't get too angry with it too soon. Now you've got something trapped in there that won't slip and you can really get some force on it without damaging anything. Save it for next time ! View attachment 16068View attachment 16069



Same principal as my bored out nut except you intend it to be used with a pipe wrench and I intend to use mine with a socket or open end wrench.

What I really like about your concept is the application method. By pinching the device against the table or a vice, you significantly reduce (or even eliminate) off axis forces so it becomes a pure torque. VERY COOL! 

Never saw a Socket Head Machine Screw called an "SHMScrew" before either.

I love learning new things and seeing new ideas!


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## JamHandy (Jul 13, 2021)

Now there’s a tool, @cuslog ! I’m a little embarrassed @architect showed off my wooden jobbie like that. It was quick and dirty and I didn’t realize just how stuck the piece was. I figured on a bit of leverage at first to unbind it, then spin it off by hand.
The last thing a guy wants to be known for on a metal working forum is his wooden tools.


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## Brent H (Jul 13, 2021)

@JamHandy : have a watch of this video:






At the end you will see Barry hammer the end nut back on with a spanner and a decent size dead blow hammer.  The quill housing is held in copper jaws in a sizeable vice.

When he hammers that nut on it is going to be pretty secure and will give you an idea of how tight it might be.  As I understand it @architect moved it 1/4 turn - but it may still need a bit of persuasion.
The nut Barry hammers on also has outside holes instead of face holes (like the nut you are trying).  If things don’t work it may be worth drilling an outside spanner pin hole in the nut so you can give it a right proper beating.


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## historicalarms (Jul 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> You mentioned this before.
> 
> My nose cap DOES NOT HAVE a set screw AGAINST THE THREADS. The set screw has a particular spot on the nose cap threads that it is designed to fit into. It is a recessed pocket in the threads of the quill. Here is a photo.
> 
> ...



   Ahh yes the old RCBS loading die rings. My first experience with buckshot between the grub screw & threads, Actually I have die sets from the early 60's that me old man used and he was ham handed as anybody with a wrench of any kind....If it was tight another 1/2 turn wouldn't hurt...The treads on those dies are still like new.
     There is a couple of bugaboo to those split rings, they work excellent on any single stage C-press where access is free but one any rotary press with a tool head where space is at a premium those damn dies always adjust to where the ring grub screw is inaccessible LOL. And also the hexagon locking rings some die makers use, would not work well being split-ring.

     All-in-all I would still consider the lead buckshot a viable solution to any grub screw-thread engagement.


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## PeterT (Jul 13, 2021)

Brent H said:


> At the end you will see Barry hammer the end nut back on with a spanner and a decent size dead blow hammer.  The quill housing is held in copper jaws in a sizeable vice.
> When he hammers that nut on it is going to be pretty secure and will give you an idea of how tight it might be.



That's the vid I recall watching. At ~14:00 he shows the nose cap going on, first hand tighten with the short spanner & then (paraphrasing) 'that's about all you need... but if you want to go a bit more...'.  he breaks out the big ass dead blow but it looks more like a love tap on the pin wrench. Now what happens between this installation & years later come removal time loosening those threads is another matter. Corrosion Glue maybe?

And his preference is just grind the set screw short, no new counterbore landing area drilled, no antiseize on the threads, no squashable medium in the hole, no brass set screw, just a dot of Locktite & very light set screw contact. Guess there are many ways to skin the cat.


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## calgaryguy (Jul 13, 2021)

I think Everything you need to do is covered in videos from H&W Machine repair youtube channel. I stumbled across their channel a couple of weeks ago via youtube's recommended algorithm and have been impressed with the video quality and clarity on Bridgeport subject matter.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiqCbERb5VG_G34vkx7j-zg


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## calgaryguy (Jul 13, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> here's some  videos that made my rebuild of my back gear a breeze:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dabbler, you beat me to the H&W video links!

EDIT: And so did Brent H!


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## Susquatch (Jul 13, 2021)

I have watched all of the H&W videos that apply to my two mills.

I agree that they are excellent.

However, they don't cover every possible scenario, nor would I expect them to.

For example regarding the subject at hand, the pesky nose cap. Yes, he shows how he does it - even to the point of using love taps with a sledge hammer. But what if we don't have that kind of spanner? What if our vice isn't big enough?
What if...... 

Another example is getting that bottom bearing out. He tells you how he does it but never actually shows you. And frankly, I have no desire to drill holes to punch my bearing out. He also mentions a special tool he uses and sells. But darned if I could find it!

Anyway, I'm sure you guys get the drift. The wonderful thing about this forum is the experience and wisdom of its members. Where the videos have a gap, there is a member who has been there or done that or with great ideas.

I'll make my own puller if the Hydraulic Grease trick doesn't work. Both approaches are better than drilling holes for a punch. I don't know about H&Ws secret tool. 

I'll also make my own nose removal tool. It will work better than any spanner ever could.

I've ordered a bunch of parts from H&W. And like many others, I'm grateful to Barry at H&W for his excellent videos. But I'm especially grateful to all the awesome members of this forum who have gone out of their way to explain things and offer their suggestions and advice


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## calgaryguy (Jul 13, 2021)

Forums like this one are pure gold man.


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## calgaryguy (Jul 13, 2021)

calgaryguy said:


> Forums like this one are pure gold man.





Susquatch said:


> I have watched all of the H&W videos that apply to my two mills.
> 
> I agree that they are excellent.
> 
> ...



Die grinder with a carbide burr and some very careful grinding? I've removed stubborn bearings this way in the past. Its definitely tricky.


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## calgaryguy (Jul 13, 2021)

Just a general followup on @architect 's post of needing a new motor. 

D&W has one of their motor rebuilding videos where barry says he's going to replace a stator in a 575v or 600v motor with a 240 one and make the motor a 240.

I'll try and find the clip to confirm, but is this possible? ie: replace the 575v/600v stator in a bridgeport field to get a 240v 3ph motor?


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## Dabbler (Jul 13, 2021)

_*but is this possible?*_

It can be done.  There used to be a shop in Ft McMurray that did it for 200$.  That was 30 years ago.


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## calgaryguy (Jul 14, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> _*but is this possible?*_
> 
> It can be done.  There used to be a shop in Ft McMurray that did it for 200$.  That was 30 years ago.



Barry at D&W seems to imply it was just a stator swap into an existing field. I'm not talking about a rewind. I gotta find the video link.


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## Proxule (Jul 14, 2021)

cuslog said:


> Kinda late to the party here but thought I'd show a couple pictures of a tool I made to get my spindle nose off - maybe it'll help someone next time. Just a little different pin wrench - gotta make it before you take the mill apart (or on your spare mill). Thick enough to get a big pipe wrench on. SHCScrews spaced appropriately and turned down to correct dia. Trap the tool between the quill nose and your vise or the table - insert a couple business cards under so you don't scar vise or table. Remove horizontal set screw as well as the grub screw. Mine was right hand thread (chinese clone) others could be left so don't get too angry with it too soon. Now you've got something trapped in there that won't slip and you can really get some force on it without damaging anything. Save it for next time ! View attachment 16068View attachment 16069



Very slick, thanks


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## Susquatch (Jul 15, 2021)

cuslog said:


> Kinda late to the party here but thought I'd show a couple pictures of a tool I made to get my spindle nose off - maybe it'll help someone next time.





Susquatch said:


> Same principal as my bored out nut except you intend it to be used with a pipe wrench and I intend to use mine with a socket or open end wrench.



Finished my version of the nose cap removal tool inspired by @architect. Cap came off like butter off a knife. Very happy. 

Easy to use with a open end wrench or a decent size monkey wrench. As a farmer, I also have sockets that big. 
















I say finished, but when I'm done all my priority work, I'll clean up the nut by facing off all the sides and bevel the end so it looks as pretty as it works.


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## Susquatch (Jul 15, 2021)

calgaryguy said:


> Die grinder with a carbide burr and some very careful grinding? I've removed stubborn bearings this way in the past. Its definitely tricky.



Ya, I removed a disk gang cushion block bearing that way once too. It was downright scary. Ended up torching, grinding, and beating on it before I was finally able to get the outer race out. That particular  set of disks is worth 80K new. I was a basket case.


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## architect (Jul 18, 2021)

So I'm trying to get the quill assembly back into the housing but it seems to be really stuck, and caught on the skirt. Any thoughts how to make this work? Everyone's videos seem to make it easy and just require few skirts of WD 40.










I didn't remove the top screws holding down the filter before sliding the skirt out. Not sure if that may have caused any issues. The screws appeared to been filed down to provide clearance. Is this factory or did the previous owner do this themselves?


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## RobinHood (Jul 18, 2021)

Did you check for burrs on both the quill cartridge and the housing bore? Remove any and all of them.

These parts are very close tolerance and will bind if the alignment is off even the slightest. You need to be very gentle to get the quill started co-axially in the bore. Use a light hand tap to align. It is easy to over-shoot center and end up stuck on the other side. In this video, he shows how he lightly hand taps the quill to get it started. If you could mount the head to something solid, it would help a lot.






I would remove the felt and only put it in after the skirt. He does mention that you could get things hung up on it.

The skirt goes in after the quill is installed.


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## architect (Jul 18, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> The skirt goes in after the quill is installed.



Thanks I'm an idiot. I'm trying to install the quill without removing the skirt.


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## Susquatch (Jul 18, 2021)

Grease didn't work on my bottom bearing. Just squirted up through the cage and dust shield like they were not even there. 

Custom pullers R Us will be at it again soon.

Looks like I only have a few thou clearance at the bottom of the bearing. Can't figure a way to measure it. So it will have to be trial and error.

Also thinking ahead, seems like an expanding collet type system is probably best, but how to control the expansion at the same time as controlling the grip will be a challenge. Not sure a copper or brass shim would be strong enough.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 18, 2021)

Any of those work for you? Or give you any ideas? The middle one in the first pic, as you screw down with the top handle, shoves the jaws further apart. Then you use a wrench on the nut to pull the bushing/bearing out


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## Susquatch (Jul 18, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 16148View attachment 16149View attachment 16150Any of those work for you? Or give you any ideas? The middle one in the first pic, as you screw down with the top handle, shoves the jaws further apart. Then you use a wrench on the nut to pull the bushing/bearing out



All somewhat similar to what I planned to try and make. But they are all way too big. The center of the bearing is only 0.698".

I don't have a drawing yet but basically, I planned to make an expanding collet - just one split or maybe four. (I HATE SPLITTING.) The main collet body would be 0.7 OD but there would be a tiny "claw" at the very end (maybe 0.74) that would grab the bearing from the back. There is virtually no room behind the bearing for anything substantial. You push the collet through and it "snaps" into place. The inside of the collet is threaded to take the 5/8-18 of the threaded rod on my slide hammer. Since I will be making the collet, I will prolly make the inside thread a tight fit so the threaded rod acts to expand the collet for a VERY tight fit to hold the rear hook in place. Ideally, I'd like to incorporate some kind of expansion system to force a friction fit of the entire collet if the hook doesn't work. I just don't know how to do that just yet. I'm guessing it will take me a few days to make it. But my parts are not here yet from H&W so I have some time.


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## RobinHood (Jul 18, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Grease didn't work on my bottom bearing. Just squirted up through the cage and dust shield like they were not even there.



Try using wet toilet paper instead of grease (soak in oil). I did not realize it was an open bearing on both sides - grease would have a tendency to squirt right through.


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## Susquatch (Jul 18, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Try using wet toilet paper instead of grease (soak in oil). I did not realize it was an open bearing on both sides - grease would have a tendency to squirt right through.



Assuming it's the same as the top bearing, it's only open on one side. It is odd though cuz the top bearing was open toward the gears. But for some reason, the bottom bearing is open toward the housing (assuming it is one sided like the top bearing is)! Go figure!

If I thought it was open on both sides, I would not have even bothered to try the grease. So no worries. 

I will try the oily toilet paper before I make a puller.


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## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Try using wet toilet paper instead of grease (soak in oil).



Tried the oily toilet paper. Worked better than plain grease but still no go.

So I started making an inside collet today. Figured out a way to force a tight fit. The top side will be threaded to fit the slide hammer as discussed earlier. But I'm gunna drill out the bottom side of the collet a bit bigger than the slide hammer thread to allow the collet ears to bend a bit easier and also to take a tight fitting button. The button will be positioned at the top of the slits in the collet before the Collet is inserted. After that, the collet can be inserted into the bearing till the lips snap into place behind the bearing. The button is then pushed to the bottom to hold the collet ears solidly against the bearing ID and the lip behind the bearing. I'll drill and tap the button 1/4-28 so it  can also be pulled back up to the root of the slots so the collet can be withdrawn if need be. I can't see how that could ever be needed, but easy to do and better safe than sorry.


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## Susquatch (Jul 20, 2021)

My bottom bearing IS OUT!

Here are a few pics of the collet, button and bearing.






This shot shows it in the top bearing and if you look down inside, you can see the button ready to be pushed into place to expand the collet tight to the bearing. 






Here it is assembled in the top bearing. Button pushed into place






Here it is in the actual troublesome bottom bearing with the button pushed into place and my slide hammer screwed into the top of the collet.






And here it is after a few FIRM taps on the slide hammer. It moved! 






And here it is out! Woooo Hoooo






@architect - if you don't feel like making your own version PM me your address, and I'll loan you mine. It would probably work with a puller type assembly in place of the slide hammer, but there is something about shock loads...


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## Susquatch (Jul 20, 2021)

There were a few improvements made as I made the collet. First off, I didn't thread the collet for the 5/8-18 of the slide hammer itself. That would have left too little metal behind and the collet might have come apart on a thread line. Instead, I threaded it for 3/8 and used an adapter that came with my slide hammer.

Second, I didn't thread the button for 1/4-20 either. Instead, I made it 5/16 because that allowed me to simply turn down a 5/16 nut to use as a button precluding the need for more threading. Besides, the bigger the nut, the easier it is to chuck it in the lathe.

Third, it turned out to be quite difficult to insert the collet in the bearing. Those ears just were not very springy. So I made the nose a tiny bit smaller by adding an end ramp and then tapped it into place with a small hammer using the 3/8 slide hammer adapter as a guide.

But all in all it worked Great. It's out. Now I just have to wait for parts.


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## RobinHood (Jul 20, 2021)

Good work on making the collet and eventually getting the bearing out. Obviously a pretty tight fit in the bore since the two other methods did not work.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Good work on making the collet and eventually getting the bearing out. Obviously a pretty tight fit in the bore since the two other methods did not work.



Thank you.

And yes, it was a VERY tight fit. It took a fairly stiff whack on my slide hammer to move it. Even then, at first it only moved 25 thou or so per blow. 

In my mind's eye, I am thinking ahead that I'll need a pretty decent driver to properly seat the new bearing.

Oh yes, and you might be interested to know that the bottom bearing was the same as the top bearing. It was only closed on one side and very poorly at that.


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## RobinHood (Jul 21, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Oh yes, and you might be interested to know that the bottom bearing was the same as the top bearing. It was only closed on one side and very poorly at that.



Thanks for the update.

You think those were the original bearings, or were they replaced at one time? What you think caused them to fail?


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> You think those were the original bearings, or were they replaced at one time? What you think caused them to fail?



To answer your question, let me begin with the fact that it is a pretty darn good Bridgeport clone. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of parts are totally interchangeable.

Although I'm fairly certain that it has been worked on, it is in really great shape. Most of it is practically new. Any work that has been done is mostly superficial. 

The most obvious sign of low usage is the very low backlash, the lack of any visible or measurable wear on the lead screws, and the condition of the bed. All appear to be original. 

The most obvious sign of any work done on it is the sectional drive belt. I doubt it is original. 

Without a lot of usage, it would be hard to believe the bearings themselves were ever replaced long enough ago to have already worn out again. 

My guess is that the bearings are original. Mainly because it would be fairly difficult to even find crappy bearings like those today. 

I'll see if I can find any markings on them later tonight. 

I believe they failed because the bull gear cover was not installed properly. All the cover screws were loose, both alignment pins were worn, and so were the alignment pin holes. This allowed the top to wobble around which misaligned the bearings which ultimately led to their failure. 

To be truthful, that's really nothing more than a partially educated guess on my part.


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## RobinHood (Jul 21, 2021)

Your analysis makes a lot of sense.


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## RobinHood (Jul 21, 2021)

Actually, looking at the picture of the top bearing, it seems to be a SKF 6203, Made in Italy. If the bottom one is the same, I would call them decent quality bearings.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Actually, looking at the picture of the top bearing, it seems to be a SKF 6203, Made in Italy. If the bottom one is the same, I would call them decent quality bearings.



I'm really impressed that you could read that in the photos. I had to put the bearing under a lighted magnifying glass to see anything at all. In fact, the first time I looked, I DIDN'T see anything. I had to look twice. But yes, you are correct, they are "SKF 6203-Z ITALY" bearings. 

Although they are quite smooth with no brinelling that I can detect, they have a ton of play in them. But that may not be their fault.


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## RobinHood (Jul 21, 2021)

I have been tearing machines apart for quite some time. Mostly without any manuals. One gets pretty good at identifying items/components and developing disassembly / assembly sequences. That’s what makes it fun for me. Also trying to find out what the sequence of events were that most likely lead up to the failure in order to remedy the problem and at the same time improve the system to hopefully prevent future failures.

That’s why I asked you if you had a theory on how/why the bearings failed.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2021)

Good stuff @RobinHood. I have practically zero experience with machinery.

But I did accident reconstruction, fire investigation, product failure, and product development during various phases of my previous career in the auto industry. Unless someone died, it was usually very enjoyable. So I understand your interest.

In fact, if you are following my Hartford thread, you will note that I plan to add extra alignment pins to the gear cover to try and prevent this from happening again.


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## RobinHood (Jul 22, 2021)

Those are good skills to have - critical thinking / analysis of processes.

Yes, I saw your proposed improvement of the Hartford mill. Hopefully that will take care of things.


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## Susquatch (Jul 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Yes, I saw your proposed improvement of the Hartford mill. Hopefully that will take care of things.



The bearings arrived. They are fully enclosed. Normally fully enclosed bearings do not need grease or oil. So I'm wondering if I need to pack them or not. Got all Allen head screws to hold the cover on too.


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## Brent H (Jul 28, 2021)

@Susquatch : you don’t need to pack sealed bearings.  They will happily spin about in the grease that you pack in for the gears.

a few changes over the years - mostly due to folks ignoring the lubrication schedule of the mill resulted in a change out of many bearings to the sealed ones.  The updated quill bearings are sealed and no oil required etc etc


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## historicalarms (Jul 28, 2021)

Just a heads-up on the sealed bearings. When we were actively farming, using machines with a zillion sealed bearings in them, we discovered, after having a few bearing failures on very new bearings that the amount of grease installed inside those bearing was almost nil in some....so we started injecting our own grease in every new bearing before it was mounted....bearing life expectancy increased substantially after that.
     We had an old livestock syringe that we filled with grease and just lifted the lip of the bearing seal with the hypo needle, inserted it a small amount and push grease into the roller track.


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## architect (Jul 28, 2021)

Is this not required then with sealed bearings?


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## Chicken lights (Jul 28, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Just a heads-up on the sealed bearings. When we were actively farming, using machines with a zillion sealed bearings in them, we discovered, after having a few bearing failures on very new bearings that the amount of grease installed inside those bearing was almost nil in some....so we started injecting our own grease in every new bearing before it was mounted....bearing life expectancy increased substantially after that.
> We had an old livestock syringe that we filled with grease and just lifted the lip of the bearing seal with the hypo needle, inserted it a small amount and push grease into the roller track.


They make a needle grease gun tip, it’s got a grease zerk fitting on the end of it. No tools needed to change anything. But I know on the farm you just used what was handy


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## Susquatch (Jul 28, 2021)

Wow. Too much info that doesn't fully jive with what I see in my new bearings or with what I know about bearings from my previous career in automotive - which is VERY different from what I see in farm equipment. 

So the main issue as I see it reading all your inputs is sealed VS shielded VS shielded and sealed VS open. 

My old bearings were open on one side and shielded on the other. They were not sealed. There is no question about the fact that they needed lubrication - either grease or oil.

My replacement bearings from H&W (NTN 6203z) appear to be shielded but I do not know if they are sealed. So I looked them up in NTN's database. Apparently, they are shielded but not sealed.

If they were sealed, I would trust a quality manufacturer like NTN (made in Canada) to put the right amount and kind of grease in them to last the bearings lifetime.

But since they are only shielded and not sealed, they need a regular supply of clean high quality grease or oil. Unfortunately the shields make it difficult to grease them. So I put grease into the bearing cup and pressed the bearings in until grease started to come out from behind the shields. Sort of the reverse of using grease to remove the bearings hydraulically. I have also packed them with grease on the cavity side of the gear housing.

Hopefully this repair will last me for as long as I own and use the mill.


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## Susquatch (Jul 28, 2021)

architect said:


> View attachment 16320
> 
> Is this not required then with sealed bearings?



Where does that oiler go on your mill? There is an oiler on my bull gear but it doesn't have a long snout like that. It seems like it only drips oil onto the teeth of the meshed gears and does not supply the bearing.

The H&W videos that I have watched recommend grease instead of oil. So if that is for the bull gear, they say you don't need it anymore.

Elsewhere I saw them say that using grease as per their procedure means oil is no longer required.

Others here have also advocated grease instead of oil.

I dunno. I'll prolly oil the spindle and just use grease for the bull gears.

But frankly, I'd keep in mind that I'm a newbie at all this if I were you. I don't have the experience that others do so I'm forced to choose what makes the most sense to me.

Choices are a good thing. Wise choices are an even better thing!


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## architect (Jul 28, 2021)

The HW Quill Housing Disassembly video talked about not needing this Oil Tube if going with sealed bearings. But after a rewatch I realized he's talking about the spindle bearings, which I will not touch, so the oil tube stays! 

Mine is pretty grimmy. Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!


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## RobinHood (Jul 28, 2021)

Now we have arrived at the open vs shielded vs sealed bearing debate. The short answer as to which one to use where is: it depends. There have been volumes written on this topic and the experts (I am not one of them) still can’t agree, because it really does depend on what the application is.

Some words of caution when adding grease: there is an ideal amount for each size bearing. Manufacturers list/have calculators to determine the amount. If too much gets put into it and the excess can not escape, you can get bearing ball skate: the excess grease builds up ahead of the rolling ball and stops it from rolling. This is temperature and speed dependent (for a given grease viscosity). If the balls skate, the bearing will destroy itself in very short order.
The excess grease can build up pressure and blow out the shield / seal - now you are back to a one shield only bearing; just hope the one that blows is on the proper side (ie, not the side where all the dirt comes from).

There is a speed limit for each type of bearing cover: open (no cover) = highest speed; shielded = lower speed; and sealed = lowest speed for a given bearing size and configuration. The speed reductions can be surprisingly large. Check the manufacture’s data sheets.

I think it’s best to leave quality bearings alone when bought new. If the retrofit is from open to shielded, then just install the shielded one. If you are installing OE (1Z or open) then make sure the lubrication schedule is adhered to at a minimum. Over lubing an open bearing is not possible - it just cost you $s in the wasted oil. You can’t do any harm (other than maybe the mess it creates as the oil slings all over the place - been there, done that on the BP). But you have to lubricate.

Rebuilding an old bearing to get a little more life out of it is another story. I just did the bearings on a ‘70s 10hp Italian electric motor. They are 6308 Z (yes, only one Z = one shield). The grease was still in pretty good shape and had not separated. After cleaning and repacking, they were put back in the motor and should be good for another 50 years (assuming the grease I used is as good a quality as the stuff they used back then). The inside of the motor was perfectly clean. Just a bit of rust on the rotor from condensation.

Arn’t bearings a fun topic? They fascinate the hell out of me…

Sorry for hijacking the thread.


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## RobinHood (Jul 28, 2021)

architect said:


> Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!



Try it. Before install - I would do a test to see if the wicking material still does it’s job. If you get drips forming and dropping off, I would call it good. If the material is still gummed up after cleaning, replace the wick and then test.


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## Susquatch (Jul 28, 2021)

architect said:


> The HW Quill Housing Disassembly video talked about not needing this Oil Tube if going with sealed bearings. But after a rewatch I realized he's talking about the spindle bearings, which I will not touch, so the oil tube stays!
> 
> Mine is pretty grimmy. Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!
> 
> View attachment 16324



I would just clean it and reuse. It isn't a part that wears. Interesting that yours has a feed tube. My hartford is just a drill hole in the cover plate.

The video for the Hartford bull gear says to pack with grease and never oil again.  Seems to me that Barry doesn't like oiling. Or maybe he knows most users don't oil often enough so grease is a better option for them. 

I have trouble with that. But hey, what do I know.


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## Susquatch (Jul 28, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Now we have arrived at the open vs shielded vs sealed bearing debate. The short answer as to which one to use where is: it depends. There have been volumes written on this topic and the experts (I am not one of them) still can’t agree, because it really does depend on what the application is.
> 
> Some words of caution when adding grease: there is an ideal amount for each size bearing. Manufacturers list/have calculators to determine the amount. If too much gets put into it and the excess can not escape, you can get bearing ball skate: the excess grease builds up ahead of the rolling ball and stops it from rolling. This is temperature and speed dependent (for a given grease viscosity). If the balls skate, the bearing will destroy itself in very short order.
> The excess grease can build up pressure and blow out the shield / seal - now you are back to a one shield only bearing; just hope the one that blows is on the proper side (ie, not the side where all the dirt comes from).
> ...



What an awesome post!

I'm no bearing expert myself but I do know more than the average bear. I spent several months at one point in my career solving a bearing brinelling problem. For reasons we couldn't understand initially, only vehicles in the Maritimes had the problem. Turned out to be a shipping problem associated with wide gap railway tracks. Constantly pounding the bearings in one place during shipment from the factory to the dealers out east put a tiny wear mark in the race. After a few months in service, the bearings started growling. Go figure.

I have heard of bearing lock as you describe. But I don't think it applies to ball bearings - only roller bearings.

Anyway, from the meaningless perspective of a self professed non-expert I totally agree with your advice and enjoyed your hyjack (which it wasn't IMHO).


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## RobinHood (Jul 28, 2021)

You are probably right that a roller bearing is more susceptible to locking up than a ball bearing just because of its shape.

On the blown shields: my neighbour runs a 60” commercial lawn mower. The OE spindles have  1Z bearings in them with a grease zerk in the middle. According to Walker, a lot of people were over servicing the spindles and blew out one shield. If you were lucky you lost one out of a top bearing - that just makes a mess of the mower deck and the belt can start to slip. If you lose a lower shield, the grass juice will eat that bearing in no time flat. So his bearings were running rough. We replaced the spindles with an upgraded version: it has a relief vent on the opposite side of the zerk. You grease until you see the vent squish out a little worm. No more problems as the relief pressure is set well below what it takes to blow a shield out of a bearing. Walker engineers learned their lesson since most of the failures happened during the warranty period.

So how did they solve the shipping by rail issue? Switch to on the road car carriers?


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## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> You are probably right that a roller bearing is more susceptible to locking up than a ball bearing just because of its shape.
> 
> On the blown shields: my neighbour runs a 60” commercial lawn mower. The OE spindles have  1Z bearings in them with a grease zerk in the middle. According to Walker, a lot of people were over servicing the spindles and blew out one shield. If you were lucky you lost one out of a top bearing - that just makes a mess of the mower deck and the belt can start to slip. If you lose a lower shield, the grass juice will eat that bearing in no time flat. So his bearings were running rough. We replaced the spindles with an upgraded version: it has a relief vent on the opposite side of the zerk. You grease until you see the vent squish out a little worm. No more problems as the relief pressure is set well below what it takes to blow a shield out of a bearing. Walker engineers learned their lesson since most of the failures happened during the warranty period.
> 
> So how did they solve the shipping by rail issue? Switch to on the road car carriers?



Good stuff. Gotta see proof it's working! My neighbour greases everything till it gobs out onto the ground! Too funny! I like the little worm though .....

The temporary rail car problem solution was easy - loosen the tie downs and let the cars move more. They were all too tight anyway. It's a human thing - if tight is good, tighter must be better. The goons in the rail yards all use cheater bars.  

Fastener Torque is a funny thing. Hardly anyone does it right. In the factory we often use calibrated tools and double checks on critical fasteners. Ever wonder why there is a gob of paint on the wheel nuts of a new car? It's to prove they were double checked. No paint - wasn't checked.

The most common reason for automotive recall campaigns is improper torque - either too tight or too loose.

Service manuals for most machinery almost always include torque charts. Almost nobody ever uses them.

Same neighbour doesn't use a torque wrench on his tractor hub nuts. Supposed to be 800 ft lbs. His version is to put an 8ft pipe on a 4ft Johnson Bar and give er all you got. My eyes popped out of my head. I measured it. My torque gauge quit at 1200......

I showed him. He still uses the pipe. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.....


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## John Conroy (Jul 29, 2021)

I wouldn't remove any oil ports. Even with sealed spindle bearings you still need oil where the quill moves up-down in the head casting and on the splines where the quill moves up-down through the drive pulley hub.


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## historicalarms (Jul 30, 2021)

Ha Ha I never used a torque wrench until it was mandated by the Canadian Transport Board that wheel lug nuts had to be torqued to a specific value and could be roadside enforced at inspections. I never used a torque wrench on thousands of bolts fixing farm equipment or heavy equipment for that mater....my old man didn,t know what a torque wrench was i don,t think....but stuff held together just fine


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## Susquatch (Aug 15, 2021)

Hey @architect, I spotted these on Amazon and ordered a set.

JH Williams WS-483 3-Piece... 






They are the same as the ones used in the H&W videos. Obviously, I don't need them for my spindle nose piece anymore, but I have needed a high quality set like these for years and they will be needed again in the future. Strike while the iron is hot.


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## architect (Aug 15, 2021)

I saw those and they are quite spendy! My neighbor helped me rig up a tool with a 1/4 plate I had. I haven't had a chance to use it as I need to first figure out how to pull the metal sleeves and slide the spindle back into the housing to get leverage. I don't think I need pin spanners other than the nosing. On the other hand, I'm still tempted to buy a Posi Lock puller in case I need one in the future. How did you gear bearings out?


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## Susquatch (Aug 15, 2021)

architect said:


> I saw those and they are quite spendy! My neighbor helped me rig up a tool with a 1/4 plate I had. I haven't had a chance to use it as I need to first figure out how to pull the metal sleeves and slide the spindle back into the housing to get leverage. I don't think I need pin spanners other than the nosing. On the other hand, I'm still tempted to buy a Posi Lock puller in case I need one in the future. How did you gear bearings out?



Ya, they are spendy for sure. But I can use them on lots of jobs and I don't want to be making a custom spanner for every job I do. The spindle nose will probably come off a dozen times or more in order to replace the R8 key so I didn't mind making a unique tool especially for that.

I thought I already posted how the bearings came out on here. In fact, I invited you to borrow the special collet tool I made if you need it. Basically, with the right tool it was a total piece of cake. But maybe I don't understand your question?


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## architect (Aug 15, 2021)

Mine is getting the bearings off the vari-disc assembly which requires a very thin and curved jaw tip to access. You had a different situation/bearing what I saw in your posts, but maybe I missed it!  Will look again once I get back from my week of backcountry. Hopefully it won't be too humid in the garage then!


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## Susquatch (Aug 26, 2021)

Someplace, someone mentioned that tightening the spindle nose keeper too much could distort the quill enough to bind on the spindle housing.

Sure enough, it just happened to me. Prolly a damn good thing somebody mentioned that. It would have taken me a while to figure out what happened if I wasn't looking for it....... 

So, I'll be drilling out a recess in the cap threads for the keeper screw to fit into so that a lot of torque is not required.

Many many thanks to whoever it was who pointed that out!


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## Susquatch (Aug 26, 2021)

architect said:


> Mine is getting the bearings off the vari-disc assembly which requires a very thin and curved jaw tip to access. You had a different situation/bearing what I saw in your posts, but maybe I missed it!  Will look again once I get back from my week of backcountry. Hopefully it won't be too humid in the garage then!



Don't know how I missed your note. I saw it after I posted about the keeper screw on the nose. 

Yes, you are right. My issue was getting the bearing for the small back gear out of the bottom housing of my step pulley Hartford. I didn't take apart the vari disk assembly on my Bridgeport at all. It seems to be working just fine. 

I don't think I can help you with the vari disk bearing. I don't know enough about it. 

There is always a way to do it. The challenge is figuring it out. But one thing is fairly certain. It will be simple once you have done it....... LOL!


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## architect (Apr 10, 2022)

I've been away garage work for a while as I have been busy with work and gigs. Also hate the cold garage 

But the border restrictions almost all gone Im finally able to cross over to Buffalo to grab this 240v motor for direct swap. Picked up new bearings and other parts from H&W as well. Prices went up 20% since looking at them 6 months ago


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## Brent H (Apr 10, 2022)

Great stuff @architect - getting closer to rock and Roll!!!


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