# Darren's active projects



## Darren (Dec 26, 2021)

I always have a lot on the go, so i figured i'd start a thread. It'll probably be picture heavy if theres any interest, because everyone loves pictures, right?.

Right now i'm working on installing the new Ditron 3 axis DRO on my Emco V13, so lets start with that. Tomorrow I'm going to pickup my brand new to me Monarch 10ee, which will be a project in itself.







I'm going to add an elbow to the display arm to raise it up and move it back. It interferes with my tool holder rack and is too low for me







This lathe had a DRO on it before, when it lived in the robotics lab. I wanted to reuse the existing holes, as much as possible. The original scale was 2" longer than the new magnetic scale, so i made up an adapter/backer out of 3/16" stainless flatbar. It ate 2 endmills and one tap. Should have bought the aluminum.....








The Ditron D80 has a built in tachometer function, which includes a pickup and a magnet. I took some ABS pipe and bored it to be a tight sliding fit onto the spindle, then drilled a hole for the magnet. I hacked up an ABS coupler to create a ring that would slide over and retain the magnet.



















A few drops of crazy glue hold it all together. Its not going anywhere. I left the inner sleeve longer in case i had to add a hose clamp/zip tie













On the compound, i also had to make an adapter. I cut the scale down to make it fit my travel needs.  Again, I used the existing holes from the previous DRO install. 



















Man i need to clean my lathe... Here you can see the existing holes for the reader head mount. 






Fortunately I had a chunk of cast iron sitting nearby to make a mount for the reader head. 






facemill is a bit faster at hogging off .500" 



			https://live.staticflickr.com/video/51777806708/5763e5edd0/1080p.mp4?s=eyJpIjo1MTc3NzgwNjcwOCwiZSI6MTY0MDU4MTI3NCwicyI6IjJkNWE0ZTE1NGYyMTEzYjg1MmM0MzY1NDc2MDdkYjJhYzEwN2E3YWMiLCJ2IjoxfQ
		


My pup likes the mill. Extra points if you regognize the voice on the TV in the background




















Now i need to work on cable management and guarding. The compound scale presents some challenges for cable management, but i have a plan.  Guards will be aluminum and leather.

More to come.


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## RobinHood (Dec 27, 2021)

Nice work.

I see you chose magnetic scales. I am leaning towards them as well. You mind sharing your thoughts why you chose magnetic vs glass?

Also, did you buy the Ditron DRO from a seller in NA or did you go straight to Asia to order it? How was that experience?


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## PeterT (Dec 27, 2021)

Does your Maximat cross slide have any kind of table lock? My 14x40 has the rudimentary screw acting against the gib strip on the RHS. It's not the best system in the world & I made some subsequent improvements to the locking mechanism. But I was unwilling to do without it, so I ended up putting the DRO on the LHS which wasn't my favorite option. Its reasonably well protected with the guard. So far so good..

My compound also had a DRO axis but after many years I think it was cable movement that caused an issue. One day I noticed some glitching digits, next day was out for good. It might also be the encoder hardware itself but my hunch is repeated flex right where the armored cable enters the unit. I decided for the $ replacement I didn't use it as much as I thought so the compound is bare dials again.


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

Just in Fort Frances. Picked up


 my 10ee.


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## YYCHM (Dec 27, 2021)

dfloen said:


> Just in Fort Frances. Picked upView attachment 19262 my 10ee.



It does have a tailstock correct?


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

Yes. Took it off for transport.  It's in my shop now.


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## RobinHood (Dec 27, 2021)

A little wintry in T-Bay?

Nice score, btw.


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

Yes. I came home to probably 12" of snow.  More where it drifted. Almost done plowing.  I'll give more details shortly


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## 140mower (Dec 27, 2021)

Well done...... Those have some sweet lines, something that has been lost on the newer machines.


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Nice work.
> 
> I see you chose magnetic scales. I am leaning towards them as well. You mind sharing your thoughts why you chose magnetic vs glass?
> 
> Also, did you buy the Ditron DRO from a seller in NA or did you go straight to Asia to order it? How was that experience?


 I had glass scales on my other Emco V10P lathe. They were fine, but a bit bulky on a smaller machine. Also, magnetic scales can be easily trimmed, which i did on two of these. Lastly, these are said to be unaffected by chips/coolant. I ordered from Amazon. I did find it slightly cheaper elswhere, but i trust Amazon a bit more.  With a bit more patience I could have ordered direct from Ditron with the scales cut to my needs. I did it myself, it was easy to trim them.


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

Stopped at Can Tire in Fort Frances , about an hour before our destination to grab a tarp, bungie cords and Fluid Film.  As you can see, the roads were the shits. The Ram had no problem though. 







My buddy Rob had the job of clearing the deck while I handed over the cash as fast as I could.






I wasn't too trusting of those tine forks, all I could see was disaster happening in front of my eyes, but nothing happened. The man selling the lathe was a smooth operator.
(He was also a super nice guy!)






First pee break on the way back. The straps were getting loose. Should have stopped sooner, but there was nowhere safe to do so.  Lots of tongue weight. More than i wanted even. Glad my welds held up. All i could picture was the tongue snapping off and the lathe getting launched into the ditch.






Winter Wonderland back at the shop


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

Here i will add a bunch of pics and some details on the lathe itself






Its a 2500 rpm machine, July 1949 build date, motor/generator drive. Got to see it run. Purrrrrsssss like a kitten! sooo smooth, and very quiet.
























Motor/generator unit.











The two images above are a transformer mounted on the main electrical inlet box at the back of the lathe. I assume to provide the 115v for excitation.







BIG dc drive motor and 'back gear' gearbox. Everything works as it should.












Saved the best for last. Just very minor staining. No major wear that i can see, no nicks, no pitting. Nothing that can be felt with a fingernail. Of course I'll run an indicator on it and see for sure.


 The biggest issue i can see is the rusty feed shaft and lead screw. They will need to be polished and examined. The leadscrew shows no wear by the naked eye though. Might look different once polished up. I hit it with a rag in a few spots and some of the rust came off, like its flash rust of something, not deep rust.

Now to get it off the trailer, cleaned, and I have some research to do, but at least its home!


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## YYCHM (Dec 27, 2021)

Why a motor/generator set?


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

It was the best they had at the time for variable speed with full torque available from near zero rpm to 4000rpm.  It sure runs sweet. I really want to keep the MG setup and feed it with single phase. I may build a RPC even. Or tear everything out and install a servo drive. There are many options to explore. I do like the DC MG drive though, as it works.


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## RobinHood (Dec 27, 2021)

Very nice looking machine.

It is very hard to beat a fully operational MG set-up in those lathes. I would try my hardest to keep it original.


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## Darren (Dec 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Very nice looking machine.
> 
> It is very hard to beat a fully operational MG set-up in those lathes. I would try my hardest to keep it original.


This looks simple enough:





						Converting Monarch 10ee motor-generator 3-phase to single phase, Steelman method
					

After recently acquiring a 1953 Monarch 10ee with a motor-generator I've been reading all the threads pro and con about preserving the M-G, using a phase convertor, using a DC drive or putting in a vfd and 3 phase AC motor. I then found the thread about...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				




I'll probably give it a shot before i do anything else. I agree with you about keeping it original.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 28, 2021)

Congrats on getting what is one of the finest lathes ever made.




dfloen said:


> It was the best they had at the time for variable speed with full torque available




Its a lot better than that!  It would be expensive and difficult to replicate its performance and it is a superior to a VFD,  AC motors can be constant torque, but a DC with field weakening can be close to constant HP.   HP and Torque seem to get confused.  Constant torque does you little good - you want torque to go up as speed goes down to maintain constant HP.

Like Robin said, try hard to save it.

I've had two 10ee's.  One had the MG, ended up selling it.  the only complaint was the noise, but that is the function of the fan and as noted in the link below can be replaced.  The current one arrived with the MG stripped but with the 2 speed backgear cut off from the DC motor.  I adapted the gear box to a 5 hp AC motor and run it off or a SEW VFD.  All controls are adapted to the machines original controls.  Its as good as I can make it, but still rather inferior the original 3HP DC MG drive.  I'm not sweating the performance degradation as it would really only be an issue at low speeds and I've bigger lathe for such work....but there are times when very slow speeds with lots of HP are nice to have.

Some of these guys are quite credible with electronics



			New to me lathe - Motor Question -  		 		The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS


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## ShawnR (Dec 28, 2021)

Congratulations @dfloen !


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## Dusty (Dec 28, 2021)

@dfloen, thank you for adding a great string of photos with your post #1, 4, 6, 11, & 12. Wish more members would do that along with project details meaning the background music so to speak.

Appears you have quite a sized shop, mine is puny compared to that.

Thanks and good luck with your new to you lathe.


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 28, 2021)

Congrats on the new machine. I really enjoy following these treads on older machines.


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

Thanks everyone


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## YotaBota (Dec 28, 2021)

Very nice, did you get any other "stuff" with it?
Are you planning a clean and use or a clean/refurbish/repaint?


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

No other goodies except a chuck key and wrenches . I do have a Hardinge collet chuck and collets which will fit. It's just missing the 3 pins for the D1-3 mount.  

I will be doing something with the paint.  Probably a complete strip, fill, and paint .


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## YotaBota (Dec 28, 2021)

I may know of a D1-3 Hardinge collet chuck if you're wanting one.


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

I have the chuck,  just need the pins.


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## RobinHood (Dec 28, 2021)

@dfloen , thanks for the info on the DRO!


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## YotaBota (Dec 28, 2021)

I priced D1-4 pins a while back and it was cheaper to by a backing plate with pins than just buying the pins.
I've seen a couple of videos on making them but I believe they need to be hardened afterward.


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

It may be cheaper and easier to just buy a complete backplate to get the pins. But that's a ways away.


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## Dabbler (Dec 28, 2021)

I'm in  the same position with regard to D1-6 pins.  I have a backing plate without pins, but I might have a go at making some from 4140.


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I'm in  the same position with regard to D1-6 pins.  I have a backing plate without pins, but I might have a go at making some from 4140.



I'll have a look at home.  Might have some D1-6 pins. 

An alternative would be to buy a cheap dog drive plate on ebay. I saw dozens go cheap when I was looking for a faceplate for my 16x60


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## Brent H (Dec 28, 2021)

Maybe this will help you ambitious D1-3 pin makers out - the D1-6 will be different though, sorry @Dabbler


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## Brent H (Dec 28, 2021)

Last time I was looking for pins I found some in the US and they were like $35 each.  I gave up and just bought a back plate on Amazon that was on sale for just over $50.


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## Dabbler (Dec 28, 2021)

@dfloen Thanks that would save me some hassle I found some from Mac at 13.99 US$ each, plus shipping (if they will)

@Brent H Thanks anyway I have some I can measure.

For those looking for cam pins, try here:






						Cam Stud | Mac-It Corporation
					






					www.macit.com


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## Susquatch (Dec 28, 2021)

dfloen said:


> All i could picture was the tongue snapping off and the lathe getting launched into the ditch.



Sometimes I think I overthink that possibility. It's hard to look at a tongue and/or a hitch and not worry about it breaking under on-road forces. Thankfully it has never happened to me and I'm glad you made it too!
.


Mcgyver said:


> HP and Torque seem to get confused. Constant torque does you little good - you want torque to go up as speed goes down to maintain constant HP.



I'd be remiss if I didn't comment here. A few of the forum members and I have agreed to disagree on this point.

HP is the rate at which work is done. Torque is a measure of rotational force required to do work. As long as you don't try to take a deeper cut as you slow down, you do not need more horsepower. Slower speeds mean less chip removal per unit time therefore less hp is required. But you do need to have the torque required to make the cut or the lathe will stall and bad things will happen.

I think your project is awesome. And I do agree with others that you should try to keep the original power train intact if you can.


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## Susquatch (Dec 28, 2021)

dfloen said:


> I had glass scales on my other Emco V10P lathe. They were fine, but a bit bulky on a smaller machine. Also, magnetic scales can be easily trimmed, which i did on two of these. Lastly, these are said to be unaffected by chips/coolant. I ordered from Amazon. I did find it slightly cheaper elswhere, but i trust Amazon a bit more. With a bit more patience I could have ordered direct from Ditron with the scales cut to my needs. I did it myself, it was easy to trim them.



I am pretty much decided to go with magnetic scales too. I don't have any DROs on anything yet. My mill will be my first one. I'll be watching how this goes for you and may have questions in time. 

I loved your rear pickup for rpm. What a great idea! I am planning to switch my lathe motor from single phase to three phase so I can install a VFD and get slower speeds. Having an rpm readout on the dro will be handy when that time comes. 

I just want to add that I love how you are involving all of us on your journey through this project. I learn so much from such stories and I REALLY APPRECIATE you telling yours!


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## Susquatch (Dec 28, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @dfloen Thanks that would save me some hassle I found some from Mac at 13.99 US$ each, plus shipping (if they will)
> 
> @Brent H Thanks anyway I have some I can measure.
> 
> ...



Now you tell me that!!! 

Like @Brent H , I tried many times to find cam studs so I could skip the need for a backplate on some of my custom chucks. 

I think I may have purchased my last backplate! Thank you @Dabbler !


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Does your Maximat cross slide have any kind of table lock? My 14x40 has the rudimentary screw acting against the gib strip on the RHS. It's not the best system in the world & I made some subsequent improvements to the locking mechanism. But I was unwilling to do without it, so I ended up putting the DRO on the LHS which wasn't my favorite option. Its reasonably well protected with the guard. So far so good..
> 
> My compound also had a DRO axis but after many years I think it was cable movement that caused an issue. One day I noticed some glitching digits, next day was out for good. It might also be the encoder hardware itself but my hunch is repeated flex right where the armored cable enters the unit. I decided for the $ replacement I didn't use it as much as I thought so the compound is bare dials again.



It does have a cross slide lock, behind the scale. I have a plan to make it work. I was going to mount the scale on the headstock side but the holes were already drilled and tapped on the tailstock side. But if i space it off a bit i can get a wrench in there. I'll worry about that when i do the guards. 

I will pay close attention to the cable management so that the cables cant flex at the reader.


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I am pretty much decided to go with magnetic scales too. I don't have any DROs on anything yet. My mill will be my first one. I'll be watching how this goes for you and may have questions in time.
> 
> I loved your rear pickup for rpm. What a great idea! I am planning to switch my lathe motor from single phase to three phase so I can install a VFD and get slower speeds. Having an rpm readout on the dro will be handy when that time comes.
> 
> I just want to add that I love how you are involving all of us on your journey through this project. I learn so much from such stories and I REALLY APPRECIATE you telling yours!



I also swapped in a VFD to control this lathe.  Its well worth the effort.  This lathe already had a 3 phase, 3hp motor. The Teco VFD was only a few hundred








With variable speed within each of the gears, its handy to know what RPM the spindle is actually turning. 

Thank you for your comments!


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## Mcgyver (Dec 28, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> HP is the rate at which work is done. Torque is a measure of rotational force required to do work. As long as you don't try to take a deeper cut as you slow down, you do not need more horsepower.



I did not say you need more HP.   I said when you slow down, you need more torque to have the same HP.  There is no mystery to to this.  HP is the product of torque and rpm.  Do you disagree with that formula?



> Slower speeds mean less chip removal per unit time therefore less hp is required.



That would be true if diameter was the same.    In discussing a lathe's available power over its speed range, I would have thought that implied different diameters.   Usually you would usually keep the cutting speed, FPM, roughly the same and vary speed with diameter.  As diameter goes up (i.e. speed goes down to maintain the cutting speed), torque must go up to have the same removal rate in cubic inches per minute (i.e. HP or work).

Maybe an example would clarify things in case I'm not presenting this clearly -  the following assumes with a 50 thou DOC and .005 feed rate

Scenario 1)
 1" dia, speed 400 rpm.  = 104 feet per minute.  Removal rate (or work) = about .3 cubic inches per minute
Scenario 2)
6" dia, speed 66 rpm. = 104 feet per minute.  Removal rate (or work) = about .3 cubic inches per minute

Scenario 1 & 2 both require the same power (HP) and do the same work (approx .3 cubic inches per minute).  Scenario 2 requires 6x the torque as Scenario 1 (as both scenarios MUST have the same power and speed has gone down so torque must go up)

What is there to disagree about?  The formulas are well established.  I don't want to take the OP's topic further astray, but suffice to say the 10ee drive gives much better performance than a constant torque VFD


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## Darren (Dec 28, 2021)

I spent a bit of time tonight measuring for wear on the lathe bed, and I'm pretty happy so far. Its still on the trailer, and needs a good cleaning but my 1/2 thou mitutoyo indicator showed maybe 2 or 3 tenths up close to the headstock on the front v way, and maybe 1/2 thou on the rear flat way and about the same for the tailstock ways. Pretty rudimentry measuring but if there was anything major, I think i would have seen it. No dips or valleys, or craters.

So its not scrap, I can move forward with some plans for it.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 29, 2021)

> I spent a bit of time tonight measuring for wear on the lathe bed, and I'm pretty happy so far.  Its still on the trailer, and needs a good cleaning but my 1/2 thou mitutoyo indicator showed maybe 2 or 3 tenths up close to the headstock on the front v way, and maybe 1/2 thou on the rear flat way and about the same for the tailstock ways



Nice.  

There is an oil pump in the apron with lines going to the carriage bed and cross slide ways.  If everything is working, the sliding surface stays lubricated and they last indefinitely.

....but..... after decades and decades the small copper tubes deliverying the oil very often get clogged.  'Then the lathes gets used for decades without the lube system working on one or more ways.  They are a bit of a pain to fix/replace, they're on the underside of the carriage, but you want to have them working.


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## Darren (Dec 29, 2021)

Thanks for that info.  I haven't dug into it yet and did not know that it was oil fed. I will have to get the manual for it.  

I did notice that the bearings under the carriage are out of adjustment and need to be replaced or repacked.  

The gentleman who I bought the machine from was a tool and die maker, turned full-time farmer. He owned it for 20 years,  so hopefully he took care of it.


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> It was the best they had at the time for variable speed with full torque available from near zero rpm to 4000rpm.



This comment is dead nuts on the money. It recognizes the importance of maintaining torque.



Mcgyver said:


> HP and Torque seem to get confused. Constant torque does you little good - you want torque to go up as speed goes down to maintain constant HP.











						Darren's active projects
					

Thanks everyone




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
				




I've thought about a reply to all your points for several days now. On reflection I believe that it isn't productive to erode this thread with yet another exhaustive debate on this subject. I love what @dfloen is doing with his lathe and I really don't want to detract from that here. Therefore I'd prefer to refrain from exhaustively addressing each of your points. I'd rather just agree to disagree on the substantive issue for now. In summary, my view is that your points show that a bigger machine is better. To me, that's a no brainer. But getting a bigger machine with more hp isn't that simple for some of us. Therefore, a VFD is an affordable way to significantly expand the capabilities of an existing piece of equipment. To crystallize our difference of opinion, allow me to use a play on your words to reflect my point of view. Basically, I believe that: "The constant torque that a VFD provides as the speed goes down is very valuable. The corresponding loss in hp does little harm."

In the interests of resolving our differences of opinion to our mutual benefit and that of others who are interested, may I suggest that you or I create a new thread dedicated to this subject so we can take the time to debate it to our hearts content without further hi-jacking this thread. If you agree to do that, I'll address the points in your reply more completely there.

I think there are also some obvious other advantages to doing a separate thread. It could provide a good reference for others in the future, and making it a formal focussed debate facilitates a more collegial approach without time or space constraints.  I've never done that before, but it seems like a better way to beat the horse to death than upsetting those who are not interested. Perhaps it could also serve as a model for debating other issues too - or perhaps a darn good reason not to! LOL!


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## Darren (Dec 30, 2021)

I welcome all discussion in this thread. 

The math is simple.  Torque must go up as RPM decreases to maintain HP, if that is your goal. The reverse is true if RPM rises, torque must decrease to maintain constant HP. Again, the math is simple. Perhaps it is the goal that isn't.  Torque is the power to twist. HP is how much work can be done in a time period. I tend to think in terms of torque when i'm visualizing gearing and powering a machine with the various options.


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## Darren (Dec 30, 2021)

So, i have a dead truck on one hoist, a dead BMW on the other with elecrical issues. My Bobcat has a frozen battery.  The lathe is half under the BMW, on the trailer. The BMW weighs 3500, the lathe weighs 3000-3500, the hoist is rated for 10k.  I think I can sling the lathe to the hoist arms using some spreaders to present a vertical only load to the hoist, instead of trying to pull the arms sideways, and balanced between the 4 arms.  So hopefully the hoist can lift the lathe and the bmw at the same time so i can get the trailer out and the pallet jack under the lathe. Should be fun.


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> I welcome all discussion in this thread.
> 
> The math is simple.  Torque must go up as RPM decreases to maintain HP, if that is your goal. The reverse is true if RPM rises, torque must decrease to maintain constant HP. Again, the math is simple. Perhaps it is the goal that isn't.  Torque is the power to twist. HP is how much work can be done in a time period. I tend to think in terms of torque when i'm visualizing gearing and powering a machine with the various options.



Agreed 100%. I think in terms of torque too not HP.  My career was in the auto industry. The sales and marketing guys and the writers all wanted hp so we gave it to them. But in the lab we talked torque not hp. 

When I got my vfd rated motor from emotors, the sales engineer told me that customers only ask about hp but the techs only cared about torque. Therefore I believe it was the same way in the electric motor industry. 

HP sells. 

As you say, the math is simple. 

Bottom line - I LOVE my VFD and VFD rated motor. I don't worry about the HP loss as the speed goes down. The torque keeps right on cutting.


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> My Bobcat has a frozen battery.



Frozen battery?  You're sitting at a balmy -12C.  I don't plug in until it's -20C or colder.


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> So, i have a dead truck on one hoist, a dead BMW on the other with elecrical issues. My Bobcat has a frozen battery.  The lathe is half under the BMW, on the trailer. The BMW weighs 3500, the lathe weighs 3000-3500, the hoist is rated for 10k.  I think I can sling the lathe to the hoist arms using some spreaders to present a vertical only load to the hoist, instead of trying to pull the arms sideways, and balanced between the 4 arms.  So hopefully the hoist can lift the lathe and the bmw at the same time so i can get the trailer out and the pallet jack under the lathe. Should be fun.



Now that's what I call a problem. Without being there to see it first hand, I'd be terrified of rendering an opinion. Sounds like a call to @Brent H might be in order. Last I heard he was in Lake Superior headed to TBay.


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## Darren (Dec 30, 2021)

Lol it's been dying for a year or so. It's not an easy job to change it now that it's buried in snow and the battery is covered in frozen mud.  Ill have to get at it though.

In the meantime. I need to get the lathe off the trailer,  get the trailer out of the shop, so I can fix the BMW and get it out of my life.


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## Darren (Dec 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Now that's what I call a problem. Without being there to see it first hand, I'd be terrified of rendering an opinion. Sounds like a call to @Brent H might be in order. Last I heard he was in Lake Superior headed to TBay.



it won't be a problem.  I have a plan.  I'll post some pics in the morning

Brent was in town yesterday.  Met up with him on my way out to grab lunch.


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> it won't be a problem.  I have a plan.  I'll post some pics in the morning
> 
> Brent was in town yesterday.  Met up with him on my way out to grab lunch.



Did Brent see the situation there? 

Glad you have a plan. That's better than NO CLUE.


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Did Brent see the situation there?
> 
> Glad you have a plan. That's better than NO CLUE.



I think @Brent H is on the move now?  Next POC?


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## Dusty (Dec 30, 2021)

dfloen said:


> So, i have a dead truck on one hoist, a dead BMW on the other with elecrical issues. My Bobcat has a frozen battery.  The lathe is half under the BMW, on the trailer. The BMW weighs 3500, the lathe weighs 3000-3500, the hoist is rated for 10k.  I think I can sling the lathe to the hoist arms using some spreaders to present a vertical only load to the hoist, instead of trying to pull the arms sideways, and balanced between the 4 arms.  So hopefully the hoist can lift the lathe and the bmw at the same time so i can get the trailer out and the pallet jack under the lathe. Should be fun.



Play it extremely safe whatever you do because we need you.


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## Dusty (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> I think @Brent H is on the move now?  Next POC.



Tried tracking the Samuel Risley using this, no luck can't find the vessel.









						Marine Traffic | Marine Vessel Finder
					

Marine Traffic AIS Tracking World Map




					www.marinevesseltraffic.com


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Tried tracking the Samuel Risley using this, no luck can't find the vessel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Canadian Coast Guard are Ninga Steath guys LOL....  OR ......... move so slowly they can't be tracked....


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Tried tracking the Samuel Risley using this, no luck can't find the vessel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here it is. 









						Ship SAMUEL RISLEY (Buoy-Laying Vessel) Registered in Canada - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 8322442, MMSI 316001890, Call Sign CG2960
					

Vessel SAMUEL RISLEY is a Buoy-Laying Vessel, Registered in Canada. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of SAMUEL RISLEY including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO...



					www.marinetraffic.com


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

Wow. I found him with a simple google search but a second try failed. I ended up creating an account on vessel finder, but it shows him still in TBay.

I think you guys are right. Stealth mode has been activated.....


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## Mcgyver (Dec 31, 2021)

I confess I do not understand this conversation.  You suggest I'm wrong (since all I'm proffering is the formula, ergo that the formula is wrong) then say you agree with the formula and that the math is simple, and then say loss in HP does little harm.



Susquatch said:


> "The constant torque that a VFD provides as the speed goes down is very valuable. The corresponding loss in hp does little harm."



That is not true for machine tools.   With a machine tool, you reduce speed because the diameter is larger.  If the diameter is larger the torque must increase to do the same work (DOC and feed at the same SFM, i.e. removal rate).

Its nothing to do with a bigger machine being better, nor did I suggest that.   Read through the two examples I gave.  Speed goes down because the work piece is 6x the diameter.  So you run it at 1/6 of the speed.  If you want to take the same DOC and feed rate, so you end up with the same removal rate, in a work piece 6x the diameter, you need 6x the torque.  This is why mechanical speed reduction or the 10ee MG drive will give better performance than will a VFD.

The only scenario where constant torque and falling horsepower would make no difference, would be if only speed were changed while the diameter, DOC and feed was not changed....but that criteria sidesteps the fundamental reason for a wide range of speeds on machine tools - working with different diameters.

I've been wrong many times before and will many times again, .....however this is basic physics formulas not an opinion or a debate.  If you are not disputing the formula, where and how can what I posted be wrong?


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## Brent H (Dec 31, 2021)

We are still here in T-Bay for the foreseeable future until H E - Double Hockey Sticks freezes over - so to speak.  No ice to break (which is a good thing right now) and lets just say - I am the last man standing in the ER so I can't leave the ship or visit @ShawnR or @dfloen  - which sucks.  It will be a very subdued New Years and that's about all I can say about that.....

I wish you luck @dfloen and would be there in a heart beat to lift that f.....sucker with you if I had the choice!

Today is project day and I will try and get some posts out on some Miss Metric repairs and I am currently fabbing up a cam bearing extractor/insert tool for the car project 

Stay healthy out there folks!!!


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I confess I do not understand this conversation.  You suggest I'm wrong (since all I'm proffering is the formula, ergo that the formula is wrong) then say you agree with the formula and that the math is simple, and then say loss is HP does little harm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since the OP welcomes the debate here, I'll engage. 

My objection is simple. You are almost always correct in what you say. But you consistently say it in a way that insults the VFD and sings the praises of a bigger machine. And I consistently get my knickers into a knot over it! Hp alone is not the holy grail. Again, within limits there are other ways to skin the cat. 

The VFD is not a fake improvement. Within limits, they do work. And they are a gift to those of us who can't have the bigger machine. See my response to Tom Kitta above. He did a great job of describing the difference but didn't knock the VFD in the process. 

I'm guessing you are not doing this on purpose. I admire most of your responses elsewhere on the forum. Your knowledge and experience runs very deep. My guess is that this is a little like that time you told your buddies wife (let's call her HP) how beautiful she is (and she really is), but now your wife (let's call her Torque) who is beautiful in her own right, is pissed off at you. I doubt you do it on purpose, but I did take offense to it and felt obligated to take you to task over it.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> . But you consistently say it in a way that insults the VFD



Anthropomorphism.  I proffer no VFD has ever had its feelings hurt by my remarks



> and sings the praises of a bigger machine.



Where have a I done that?  Its not fair to inject things into this that I haven't said

In my home shop, my biggest lathe weights 5200 pounds, the lightest is a 6mm Lorch watchmakers lathe.  Its about the right tool for the job and I don't ever recall praising a bigger machine just because its bigger



> Hp alone is not the holy grail.



I haven't call anything a holy grail.  HP is, along with rigidity, a key component determining how much work a machine tool can do.  *If you can't get a machine to deliver close to the same HP over its speed range, its a poor performing drive compared to one that can.   *That's it in a nut shell



> Again, within limits there are other ways to skin the cat.



No there are not.  This is not how to fixture something or do an operation etc, its a physics formula.  Power = Torque x RPM.  To the best of the species collective knowledge, that will be true always no matter what



Susquatch said:


> The VFD is not a fake improvement.



Understanding how they work and their limitations does equate to thinking they are fake.  They are quite real.  I use them a lot,  on several machine tools I have have them installed for certain benefits they provide.  At work I have 15hp cnc mills - why are they 15?   Yo ensure there is some umph left at lower speeds, and its a lot cheaper to put huge HP servo on them than an automatic transmission



> Within limits, they do work.



they do, and I use them.  I did not ever say they didn't work.  I also retain and use the mechanical transmission as well for all obvious reason; they increase torque as speed goes down.



> And they are a gift to those of us who can't have the bigger machine.



I don't know why you keep referring to this.  How is the size of the machine relevant?  I haven't made reference to the size of the machine and what I've said is true regardless of the machine's size



> He did a great job of describing the difference but didn't knock the VFD in the process.



Its a factual discussion.   Shouldn't pointing out facts around a device's characteristics be just that?  Un-emotive factual, technical, etc.  You make it sound like I'm anti VFD.   I'm not, I use them, understand their pros and cons.  However they're inanimate objects best used with a full understanding of their pros and cons.



> I'm guessing you are not doing this on purpose. I admire most of your responses elsewhere on the forum. Your knowledge and experience runs very deep. My guess is that this is a little like that time you told your buddies wife (let's call her HP) how beautiful she is (and she really is), but now your wife (let's call her Torque) who is beautiful in her own right, is pissed off at you. I doubt you do it on purpose, but I did take offense to it and felt obligated to take you to task over it.



Thank you for the positive remarks, but this paragraph drips with anthropomorphism.  These are devices to be used and understood, not women (who do not like being used and cannot be understood  ) None of use should be a stakeholder in them such that we're offended if their shortcomings are noted.  I should always be prepared to be wrong, but it does irk being told I'm wrong on stating basic physics, as if I just make the shlt up.

Now, I'm going to go make something.  Lost 3D printed wax investment casting is today's topic


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Anthropomorphism.  I proffer no VFD has ever had its feelings hurt by my remarks
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's good that you can detach yourself from your machines. I can't. I love them or hate them. That's why it's mostly an expensive hobby for me. I sure as heck don't feed my family with them. 

I'd bet good money that a lot of our debate would disappear in person. Anyway, I'd prefer to move on.


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Brent H said:


> We are still here in T-Bay for the foreseeable future until H E - Double Hockey Sticks freezes over - so to speak.  No ice to break (which is a good thing right now) and lets just say - I am the last man standing in the ER so I can't leave the ship or visit @ShawnR or @dfloen  - which sucks.  It will be a very subdued New Years and that's about all I can say about that.....
> 
> I wish you luck @dfloen and would be there in a heart beat to lift that f.....sucker with you if I had the choice!
> 
> ...



So you are not in stealth mode after all! The vessel finder is correct - you are still in port in TBay! 

Btw, I had to tell the finder system that we were related in order to avoid commercial fees. Feel free to divorce me if anyone asks why you are not big, hairy, and ugly like your older brother.


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## Brent H (Dec 31, 2021)

> Btw, I had to tell the finder system that we were related in order to avoid commercial fees. Feel free to divorce me if anyone asks why you are not big, hairy, and ugly like your older brother.



Who says I am not ..... wink wink .....nudge nudge


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Who says I am not ..... wink wink .....nudge nudge



Ya, you did grow up around here, and my dad did have regular business at the Regional center in the area.......


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## RobinHood (Dec 31, 2021)

@Mcgyver & @Susquatch, Torque vs HP has been a hot topic - and probably will continue to be one. So I will carefully stick my head out of my shell and hopefully contribute some food for thought:

In the link below, there is a table where they list torque at selected speeds for a constant motor HP.
Further down, there is a graph that shows the change in power and torque for a given change in rpm.






						Electric Motors - Torque vs. Power and Speed
					

Electric motor output power and torque vs. rotation speed.




					www.engineeringtoolbox.com
				




Since a VFD primarily controls motor rpm, both the torque and power change for a speed change. I do understand that a VFD can, within limits, also control the torque by adjusting the strength of the magnetic field (via current control, I think), so there is some “fudging” of the lines in the graphs presented possible. But that has is limits before the motor either disintegrates at high rpm or the rotor stalls out at the bottom end.

So, from an operator’s perspective, I want my machine to do a certain amount of work per hour, say. In order to mitigate blowing up the motor due to high speed or burning it up because it stalls, I use a bigger motor (more HP) whose power curves are such that even at the limit of the normal operation of the speed envelope, the motor itself is not at its limits.

Does all this matter in a hobby environment - probably not as most hobbyists never push their machines because it does not matter how fast the work gets done. So if your ‘50s lathe came with a 3/4 hp motor, there is no real benefit to change it to a 2 hp one with a VFD other than now you have variable speed capability and you’d never damage the motor as it is not going to run anywhere near its design limits. A 3/4 hp with VFD would normally be plenty.

It would be a completely different story in an industrial setting where the work needs to get done in a reasonable amount of time. So, yes, if the machine itself is strong to handle extra power, then increasing the motor size and running it off a VFD does make sense.

Is bigger better? Not necessarily. Is more rigid better? Always! No question. Bigger machines tend to be more rigid; thus there is a school of thought that a bigger machine is a better machine, because they are more rigid. A well built 13-40, 3 hp lathe weighing 5000 lbs is a much better machine than a well built 13-40, 3 hp lathe weighing 1700 lbs. Now, one could argue that the 1700 lbs lathe in the example is not “well built” as it is too light - but we won’t go there…

Back to @dfloen ’s Monarch: the rotational mass of the working MG set-up can not be duplicated by removing it and replacing the system with a regular 3 ph, VFD controlled motor. One would have to install some sort of flywheel arrangement to get close to original inertia, let alone the mass of the MG itself that has been removed from the base of the machine. Sand bags perhaps?


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## Darren (Dec 31, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> *snipped
> 
> Does all this matter in a hobby environment - probably not as most hobbyists never push their machines because it does not matter how fast the work gets done. So if your ‘50s lathe came with a 3/4 hp motor, there is no real benefit to change it to a 2 hp one with a VFD other than now you have variable speed capability and you’d never damage the motor as it is not going to run anywhere near its design limits. A 3/4 hp with VFD would normally be plenty.



I sure like my 16-60, 10hp machine. It can do some pretty heavy cuts, but you're right, and i don't do those often enough. I'm sure i could have gotten away with 3-5hp. It had a 7.5hp 575v motor when I got it, but i found a 240v 10hp inverter rated motor in the same frame (213t) for $50 on FB, brand new. 



RobinHood said:


> Now, one could argue that the 1700 lbs lathe in the example is not “well built” as it is too light - but we won’t go there…


My V13 is around 1400lbs, and is surprisingly rigid. But you have to know a machines limits and to work within them.  



RobinHood said:


> Back to @dfloen ’s Monarch: the rotational mass of the working MG set-up can not be duplicated by removing it and replacing the system with a regular 3 ph, VFD controlled motor. One would have to install some sort of flywheel arrangement to get close to original inertia, let alone the mass of the MG itself that has been removed from the base of the machine. Sand bags perhaps?



Great points. I'm going to try to rework the MG to run on single phase. Looks pretty simple really. Failing that, I have a new looking 5hp motor here, and i'd be using it with a VFD.


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> @Mcgyver & @Susquatch, Torque vs HP has been a hot topic - and probably will continue to be one. So I will carefully stick my head out of my shell and hopefully contribute some food for thought:
> 
> In the link below, there is a table where they list torque at selected speeds for a constant motor HP.
> Further down, there is a graph that shows the change in power and torque for a given change in rpm.
> ...



Well said from end to end @RobinHood. Glad you stuck your head out.

FWIW, I think we all agreed from the beginning that the power system on this lathe should be preserved if at all possible.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 31, 2021)

> Since a VFD primarily controls motor rpm, both the torque and power change for a speed change.



The torque won't drop on a vector drive.  but so what?  the HP will and that's what gets work done.  You know if you increase the dia say 6x. the speed needs to be dropped to 1/6.  If you do so, the surface speed stays the same.  And if you keep the same DOC and feed (doing the same amount of work) the torque *must *increase 6x to achieve the same removal rate. That's what you get via mechanical speed reduction for example.



> Does all this matter in a hobby environment



A couple of points.  Your link deals with electric motors, but really the discussion is drives.  i.e. the relative merits of a mechanical speed reduction of an MG unit vs a VFD.

Does it matter in hobby environment?  I think the answer is absolutely unless one only works at small diameters.  Consider:  In your scenario of 3/4 HP lathe, you suggested if using an electronic speed control you might over drive it with a 2HP motor so there is some power left at low rpms.   I'd guess you suggest that because you understand power/torque/rpm's.  However whats commonly suggested or asked about is keeping the 3/4 motor and just replacing the mechanical transmission with a VFD.  The erroneous thinking being because its constant torque all will be well.  It won't; there will nothing left in terms of power at say 100 rpm on 4" work piece or dia cutter.  That's not a matter of pushing the machine in a production environment, its just the reality that getting 1/20 of 3/4 hp at say 80 rpm is going to be rather lousy.

This started with my noting how the ingenious MG DC motor drive does so much better than a VFD.  The anecdotal "it worked for me" is fine, but really that just means that individual found the reduced amount of power left over at low RPMs from VFD speed control was good enough for them in how they use the machine (either lightly or with little low rpm stuff).  and hey, me too.  I have several machines with VFD's.   Peace.  However when evaluating how to go, it doesn't change the truth of P=rpm x torque or that if one drive delivers closer to constant HP over a machine's speed range its going to give better performance than one that doesn't


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## Dabbler (Dec 31, 2021)

I've also been standing on the sideline on this, but If you all would just allow me a moment...

Here is the crux of the disagreement:  when on a VFD, when does the *system* lack *sufficient*  torque to perform its function.

(the stars are what I need to intercede with)

On a lathe, your torque requirement goes way up as you reduce speed, as that is usually because you are slowing the spindle down for turning large work.

[N.B. If all you are doing is parting the torque requirement remains the same on the same diameter work - you are reducing speed to reduce chatter...]

Any vector drive VFD will preserve *almost* full torque even at low RPMs, but doesn't necessarily address the need for *sufficient* torque when you are cutting the outer diameter of a 10" piece of work. 

When the *system* is a mill, the different cutter diameters aren't enough to make the need for extra torque all that important.  A mill has a lot less rotating mass to worry about as well, and this takes stress off the motor.

This is the advice I give newbies:  On a mill, you can easily use the same HP motor as is recommended and use a VFD.

On a lathe, my advice is different:  even for a hobby machine, I suggest upping the HP of the motor when doing a Single Phase to VFD/3Phase conversion.  In lower HP machines, doubling it.  On 5HP and bigger machines, just go up a step to 7.5 or 8.  You really notice this in the acceleration of the chuck and the ability to take a chip on the OD and face cuts of larger work pieces.

In addition, I make sure they can still shift gears to increase torque as required.

I really hope this helps you guys to see that you are actually talking about different scenarios, while agreeing on some of the fundamentals.


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## Darren (Dec 31, 2021)

For anyone wondering how the lift went,  it was a piece of cake!


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> On a lathe, my advice is different: even for a hobby machine, I suggest upping the HP of the motor when doing a Single Phase to VFD/3Phase conversion. In lower HP machines, doubling it. On 5HP and bigger machines, just go up a step to 7.5 or 8. You really notice this in the acceleration of the chuck and the ability to take a chip on the OD and face cuts of larger work pieces.



Hmmmm..... This advice is timely. I am planning to replace my single phase 220 lathe motor with a 3ph and VFD in the near future. I have done some pretty heavy work already at the swing extreme and I would like to be able to go a bit slower then the 70rpm I have now. Unless some special need comes along, prolly not much lower than 50 rpm though. As long as I can find a suitable motor that will fit the mounts (or accommodate modified mounts) I'll no doubt take your advice. Why not? Not likely more than 50% bigger though. 

A small question though. I would have thought that the reduction gearing would buy you enough additional torque to do the trick to compensate. Wouldn't a wiser set of shallower cut depths handle any minor deficit?


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

dfloen said:


> For anyone wondering how the lift went,  it was a piece of cake! View attachment 19374View attachment 19375View attachment 19376



I wasn't just wondering, I was waiting with baited breath!

I'm thrilled to hear it all went as planned. 

Well done!


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## Darren (Dec 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I wasn't just wondering, I was waiting with baited breath!
> 
> I'm thrilled to hear it all went as planned.
> 
> Well done!



It started lifting off the trailer as i tightened the one ratchet strap. It was perfectly balanced.  I'm guessing its less than 3k lbs. Hoist didn't know it was there.


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

dfloen said:


> It started lifting off the trailer as i tightened the one ratchet strap. It was perfectly balanced.  I'm guessing its less than 3k lbs. Hoist didn't know it was there.



I can see the smile on your face from here!


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## Darren (Dec 31, 2021)

yes sir. I love it when a plan comes together!


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## Dabbler (Dec 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I would have thought that the reduction gearing


You have the right of it, but...

In my experience, as the VFD is compensating in vector mode, you end up with additional slip, which is compensated for with extra current.  However this means that the breakaway torque becomes very near the operating torque, even on  a VFD rated motor. This tends to be significant at around 6 or 7 Hz, or 10% of the motor speed rating.

If you gear your lathe down, and run your VFD at above 12HZ, you get all the advantages of the VFD without the breakaway problem. 

So if you have a 120 RPM setting on you lathe at 1725 RPM motor, you can get 1/5 of that or 24 RPM with the VFD with something like 80% of the motor torque, with the advantages of the gear down.

No need, then for a larger motor.  When people need the larger motor is when they are trying to get almost the entire speed range by using only the VFD.


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## Dabbler (Dec 31, 2021)

@dfloen Nice job!  what a handy thing, a vehicle lift!

The numbers I have for a 10EE is that they are just over 3000 lbs.


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## Darren (Dec 31, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @dfloen Nice job!  what a handy thing, a vehicle lift!
> 
> The numbers I have for a 10EE is that they are just over 3000 lbs.


 
They do come in handy, I also unloaded my surface grinder with it, using a similar setup. It was only 1700 lbs though.


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> You have the right of it, but...
> 
> In my experience, as the VFD is compensating in vector mode, you end up with additional slip, which is compensated for with extra current.  However this means that the breakaway torque becomes very near the operating torque, even on  a VFD rated motor. This tends to be significant at around 6 or 7 Hz, or 10% of the motor speed rating.
> 
> ...



I see. That all makes perfect sense. My lathe is an enclosed gear head. No way I plan to negate or disable the gearing. It's not at all the same as changing the belt on a pulley drive mill. 

Its a great lathe. I really just want a slightly lower speed range at the bottom end.


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## PeterT (Dec 31, 2021)

I thought I built a cutting power calculation spreadsheet one upon a time based on what I assumed were the classic equations. I finally found my old Excel sheet but looks like I was interested in grinding power requirements, which is different. Anyways I had this Metal Cutting Theory link saved. On ~page 18 they do a lathe calculation. (Grinding starts on pg-47 of you're interested).








						Metal Cutting Theory and Practice
					

Metal cutting applications span the entire range from mass production to mass customization to high-precision, fully customized designs. The careful balance between precision and efficiency is maintained only through intimate knowledge of the physical processes, material characteristics, and...



					books.google.ca
				




This isn't the online source I was thinking of because I distinctly remember 'diameter' as being one of the inputs as in above link. Maybe they package the input variables differently, I haven't dug into it.








						Cutting Power for Turning - Technical Info / Cutting Formula | MITSUBISHI MATERIALS CORPORATION
					

This page is about Mitsubishi Materials Corporation's technical information/calculation formulas. Detailed information on Cutting Power for Turning. In addition to an overview of cutting tools, safety




					www.mitsubishicarbide.com


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

Brent H said:


> No ice to break (which is a good thing right now)...



Don't count on that to save you Brent.

My daughter and her clan came here on boxing day. They came down with the virus a few days later and all of them tested positive. The grandkids are doing worse than the adults because they are not vaccinated.

Right on schedule, it looks like I have a mild case 5 days later. Fever, vomiting, diarrhea, sore throat, cough, sore muscles, runny nose, and throbbing headache. Good thing I'm triple vaxxed.

Hopefully it won't get worse, but I'll have to isolate for 5 days after I'm clear.

That prolly means lots of time for the forum and machine research and after I feel better hopefully some free time in the shop.

Did you ever post a photo of the shop on board the ship there? Might be fun to see.

The Canadian navy took me and a few others from Windsor out for exercises on a frigate in Lake Huron 15 years ago or so. The ships engineer took me on a personal tour of the ship during the trip out. I don't remember a machine shop of any kind. So yours has me most curious.


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## Degen (Dec 31, 2021)

Little late to this party, however here is a link that some may find interesting.



			DRO PROS Digital Readout beats Heidenhain Newall Acurite Sargon Fagor
		


For DRO the cnc setup with Clearpath gives me those values.  Little mor expensive, but cnc to boot.


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## Janger (Dec 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Don't count on that to save you Brent.
> 
> My daughter and her clan came here on boxing day. They came down with the virus a few days later and all of them tested positive. The grandkids are doing worse than the adults because they are not vaccinated.
> 
> ...



Get better soon!


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## Dabbler (Dec 31, 2021)

> My daughter and her clan​



I really hope you and everyone in your family gets better and without any side effects.  Positive thoughts your way!


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## Mcgyver (Jan 1, 2022)

dfloen said:


> They do come in handy, I also unloaded my surface grinder with it, using a similar setup. It was only 1700 lbs though.



I've got one of those - great little machine.  Mine came out of a high school....the kids try hard to round the corners off but they use the machines very lightly.  I think the grinder sat gather dust for most of its tenure.

Its roller table and should be removed for transportation......the road hammers the bearings

Happy new year all!


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## Darren (Jan 1, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> I've got one of those - great little machine.  Mine came out of a high school....the kids try hard to round the corners off but they use the machines very lightly.  I think the grinder sat gather dust for most of its tenure.
> 
> Its roller table and should be removed for transportation......the road hammers the bearings
> 
> Happy new year all!



I bought the grinder online, in Barrie. My inlaws live there. I asked my brother inlaw if he could pick it up and store it for me until i could get there. He said sure, no problem. I asked if he had a way to haul it and unload it. Yup, he had a trailer and a beam in his garage and a come along. I went over all the details, removing the table, etc. Should be no problem. Well it turned into a huge fiasco. He had a light duty C-tire trailer that broke when they tried loading it, so it ended up in the back of his truck. He couldn't unload it because his truck was too tall to fit in his garage. So it ended up in his truck for 3 weeks, and i had to listen to him bitch about it and threaten to bring it to a scrapyard.  We finally met up in Sudbury (12 hour drive for me, each way) and drove around for a while until we found someone at the Cat dealership who would lift it with a loader and put it in my truck. So it turned into a huge ordeal. I took the table off, cleaned everything, and its in good shape. I need to get new meters for the oiling system though.


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## Dabbler (Jan 1, 2022)

@dfloen All the Bijur meters were completely gummed up in the surface grinder I bought.  I'm dragging my feet on the repair, as the first set had incompatible threads, so next time I'm going to replace the manifold, and all the fittings in one go, instead of trying to save a few pennies.


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## Darren (Jan 1, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @dfloen All the Bijur meters were completely gummed up in the surface grinder I bought.  I'm dragging my feet on the repair, as the first set had incompatible threads, so next time I'm going to replace the manifold, and all the fittings in one go, instead of trying to save a few pennies.


 Yes, mine is the same. Oddball british metric of some sort. I want to add an electric auto oiler, like i have on my mill, so i don't have to think about it. They are cheap enough.


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## Mcgyver (Jan 1, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I bought the grinder online, in Barrie. My inlaws live there. I asked my brother inlaw if he could pick it up and store it for me until i could get there. He said sure, no problem. I asked if he had a way to haul it and unload it. Yup, he had a trailer and a beam in his garage and a come along. I went over all the details, removing the table, etc. Should be no problem. Well it turned into a huge fiasco. He had a light duty C-tire trailer that broke when they tried loading it, so it ended up in the back of his truck. He couldn't unload it because his truck was too tall to fit in his garage. So it ended up in his truck for 3 weeks, and i had to listen to him bitch about it and threaten to bring it to a scrapyard.  We finally met up in Sudbury (12 hour drive for me, each way) and drove around for a while until we found someone at the Cat dealership who would lift it with a loader and put it in my truck. So it turned into a huge ordeal. I took the table off, cleaned everything, and its in good shape. I need to get new meters for the oiling system though.



The things we do for love.


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## YotaBota (Jan 1, 2022)

All the best Susq, how's the bride doing?


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## Darren (Jan 1, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> The things we do for love.



Ain't that the truth. 

I had been searching for an Emco V13 Lathe for a long time. Last Feb, I stumbled across 3 of them for sale on Govdeals, in Ohio.  I guess I forgot how far Ohio is from Thunder Bay, I bid on all 3, won one of them, and drove 48 hours round trip.  Halfway there I was like "WTF were you thinking?!" "Never again" ......... Then this 10ee. 12 hours in a heavy snowstorm. And i'm sure I will do it again. Its a sickness i tell ya!


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 1, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> All the best Susq, how's the bride doing?



She is immune to everything. She could eat a rotted maggot infested skunk and not even burp. She got a bit of a headache and a sore throat and it was over. Of course, now she is convinced she married a wuss.


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## YotaBota (Jan 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> She is immune to everything. She could eat a rotted maggot infested skunk and not even burp. She got a bit of a headache and a sore throat and it was over. Of course, now she is convinced she married a wuss.



Had to wipe the tears after that one!


----------



## Tom O (Jan 2, 2022)

Yep the dreaded “ Man Cold “ type symptoms. Get into the pose and yell “Is that all you got”


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## Canadium (Jan 2, 2022)

@Mcgyver  "Its roller table and should be removed for transportation......the road hammers the bearings"

I had no idea! I had been thinking of getting a surface grinder for some time and was worried about lift points. Didn't realize there could be other issues as with the table! I guess there are differences between makes and one should get the appropriate manual and read up first.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

Canadium said:


> @Mcgyver  "Its roller table and should be removed for transportation......the road hammers the bearings"
> 
> I had no idea! I had been thinking of getting a surface grinder for some time and was worried about lift points. Didn't realize there could be other issues as with the table! I guess there are differences between makes and one should get the appropriate manual and read up first.



This is also why vehicles are not tied down so tightly that they cannot move in transport by rail, truck, & ship. If they cannot move, the wheel bearings take a beating. The process is called brinelling and results in a noisy bearing that must be replaced. It is better if the vehicle can move around a bit so the bearings move and the suspension takes the pounding instead of the bearings.


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## Darren (Jan 2, 2022)

I had originally thought i'd use this method for converting the 10ee to run on single phase:






						Converting Monarch 10ee motor-generator 3-phase to single phase, Steelman method
					

After recently acquiring a 1953 Monarch 10ee with a motor-generator I've been reading all the threads pro and con about preserving the M-G, using a phase convertor, using a DC drive or putting in a vfd and 3 phase AC motor. I then found the thread about...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				




then I thought I would just build a 10-15hp RPC so i'd have it for other machines if needed. The cost of shipping a motor and related parts to build an RPC is going to get expensive, and i still have work to do to convert from 440 to 220v. 

The first method is only 100 for parts, so i'm going to try that first. Just ordered caps and the relay. 

Might still build the RPC later.


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## DPittman (Jan 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> This is also why vehicles are not tied down so tightly that they cannot move in transport by rail, truck, & ship. If they cannot move, the wheel bearings take a beating. The process is called brinelling and results in a noisy bearing that must be replaced. It is better if the vehicle can move around a bit so the bearings move and the suspension takes the pounding instead of the bearings.


Man that's hard to imagine that a vehicle on rubber tires would have problems with the wheel bearings like that.  ?   I ain't saying it ain't so,...just that I don't buy it.


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## 140mower (Jan 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Man that's hard to imagine that a vehicle on rubber tires would have problems with the wheel bearings like that.  ?   I ain't saying it ain't so,...just that I don't buy it.


Out west here, they used to say the bearings were box-car'd. It's certainly what I was taught in trade school.... As I was told, the bearings didn't get enough movement to replenish the grease between the bearing and race accelerating the wear at that point.


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## YYCHM (Jan 2, 2022)

140mower said:


> Out west here, they used to say the bearings were box-car'd. It's certainly what I was taught in trade school.... As I was told, the bearings didn't get enough movement to replenish the grease between the bearing and race accelerating the wear at that point.



What trade?


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## 140mower (Jan 2, 2022)

The plan was to be an automotive mechanic, did that for several years, and decided that playing in the dirt might be more fun, which lead to highway maintenance etc. Still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up....


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## Mcgyver (Jan 3, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I had no idea! I had been thinking of getting a surface grinder for some time and was worried about lift points. Didn't realize there could be other issues as with the table! I guess there are differences between makes and one should get the appropriate manual and read up first.



Some grinders have plane bearing ways (which require no precautions), others like the Norton have cylindrical rollers.  The table is held down by gravity so the issue is there is no preload on the bearings  - On a grinder you can literally walk over to it and pick the table up.  Without a preload, when you hit a bump, the table might lift a tiny amount and come back down with an impact.  Bearings don't like impacts and brinnelling can result.  While many machines are moved with air ride suspensions etc to minimize risk, I've not heard of precautions taken for preloaded bearings such as spindles, (as the whole assembly will move so there isn't the impact).  I think its just the gravity attached SG tables that are high risk.

How I was taught to move surface grinders is to to take the table off, carefully store the bearings, throw a couple of blocks of wood where the bearings were, table on top and strap it all down.


----------



## Mcgyver (Jan 3, 2022)

dfloen said:


> then I thought I would just build a 10-15hp RPC so i'd have it for other machines if needed. The cost of shipping a motor and related parts to build an RPC is going to get expensive, and i still have work to do to convert from 440 to 220v.
> 
> The first method is only 100 for parts, so i'm going to try that first. Just ordered caps and the relay.
> 
> Might still build the RPC later.



Eons ago when setting up my shop thats what I did, built a RPC.   Then I got a 600-220 volt transformer and ran it in reverse.  Gives me 240 and 600 3P.  It served me well, but there are two issues, fairly minor, but they nag at me.  First is the drone.  Silence is golden and it does take away from the shop Zen thing.  Second is doing the acrobatics to get form one side of my crowded shop to the other to turn it on.  I could add an infrared start or some sort of remote control, but life would be easier if it was step up to a machine and go.

The difference between then and now is the low cost of VFD's.  So I've started using VFD's to supply 3P and have used 1P transformers to get the household 220 to 440 (or 600).  they (1P transformers) are available fairly often on kijiji, at least around here (TO)


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Man that's hard to imagine that a vehicle on rubber tires would have problems with the wheel bearings like that. ? I ain't saying it ain't so,...just that I don't buy it.



So, several things are important to know.

I was one of the guys who worked on this problem when the industry realized that it was only a far east and far west problem. I was sent to the Maritimes to try and figure out why. It was one of my first major assignments. You would not believe how many roads I looked at until I found a problem vehicle that had never been on the road. Then the light bulb went on.

In the old days, vehicles were cinched down tight with chain cranks. Tires were heavily loaded as a result. YES, tires did reduce the problem. But they couldn't save a bearing that was constantly being pounded in the same position when it was not turning. Tires do provide some damping but not enough against the mass of an entire constrained vehicle.



140mower said:


> Out west here, they used to say the bearings were box-car'd. It's certainly what I was taught in trade school.... As I was told, the bearings didn't get enough movement to replenish the grease between the bearing and race accelerating the wear at that point.



Box car'd is a great term.

Wearing due to lack of lubrication is partly true. But it wasn't just wear it was also permanent deformation in the surface metal treatment of the race. Micro analysis by Timken showed that the bearings were wearing but were also being deformed (minor metal displacement) as well as being worn. 

Changes were made to both the bearings and to the tie-down system. The problem went away industry wide.

The phenomenon is well understood today. It's called Bearing Brinelling. I believe @Mcgyver is spot on with his observation and advice.

Edit - I guess we are all easily scarred by our life experiences. Every time I whack a chuck or a draw bar with a plastic hammer, I cringe. In my minds eye I see a bearing taking a beating. It's not the same cuz it's always a different position, but I just can't help myself from thinking about it.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> So I've started using VFD's to supply 3P and have used 1P transformers to get the household 220 to 440 (or 600). they (1P transformers) are available fairly often on kijiji, at least around here (TO)



I would have thought that transformers like that would be everywhere. But I've been looking and have not found any. Maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing. 

My preference would be a big one with multiple taps for different voltages to accommodate all the different motors out there. I remember seeing a really big one with a variable tap in it. It was free for the taking, but at the time I just couldn't see how I would ever use it. But it sure was a thing of beauty! Hind sight is always 20/20.

Please let me know next time you spot one.


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## DPittman (Jan 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> So, several things are important to know.
> 
> I was one of the guys who worked on this problem when the industry realized that it was only a far east and far west problem. I was sent to the Maritimes to try and figure out why. It was one of my first major assignments. You would not believe how many roads I looked at until I found a problem vehicle that had never been on the road. Then the light bulb went on.
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff.  According to Wikipedia it looks like the transportation style damage might be called False Brinelling or Fretting.  





						Brinelling - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Interesting stuff.  According to Wikipedia it looks like the transportation style damage might be called False Brinelling or Fretting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very cool!

They call it false brinelling because the bearings are only polished not deformed. The reference to transportation is parts shipping.

There is no doubt that the wheel bearings were permanently damaged and I think there is no doubt that this is what happened to the surface grinder bearings too.

But it's cool to see that there are cases where damage might be apparent on inspection but not actually present. Very cool and good to know


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## Brent H (Jan 3, 2022)

@dfloen :  In case you want to go full bore on your Monach:


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## Darren (Jan 3, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @dfloen :  In case you want to go full bore on your Monach:



I saw that video.  Apparently its a couple grand to grind a bed, plus shipping costs. I believe this lathe would be worth doing, if it needed it, but its looking pretty good so far.  I'm going to have a better look soon. Might have to make some tools to accurately guage the bed wear, and do some test cuts.


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## Darren (Jan 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> The reference to transportation is parts shipping.



I recently ordered a pair of front hubs/wheel bearings for an 06 Canyon. On the ABS wheel speed sensor harness, there's a pre-attached metal bracket. On both hubs, the bracket had cut through the harnesses like a razor blade during shipping, despite being fairly well packaged. Of course I didn't find this out until I was back at the shop, 30km's from the parts store....


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I recently ordered a pair of front hubs/wheel bearings for an 06 Canyon. On the ABS wheel speed sensor harness, there's a pre-attached metal bracket. On both hubs, the bracket had cut through the harnesses like a razor blade during shipping, despite being fairly well packaged. Of course I didn't find this out until I was back at the shop, 30km's from the parts store....



Ouch! I feel for you! 

Thankfully, I'm retired from that business now. I can't help you anymore.......  I tried pulling some strings for a friend last month. The response on the phone was basically "Susquatch who?" Apparently all traces of my career have been erased and I don't exist there anymore. 

I'm a farmer now. Wanna buy some corn? LOL!


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

dfloen said:


> On both hubs, the bracket had cut through the harnesses like a razor blade during shipping, despite being fairly well packaged.



BTW, that's a bad place for a wire connection repair. If you do repair it, make sure you solder the wires together and use a good quality shrink wrap with internal sealer. No crimp on connectors allowed.


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## Darren (Jan 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Ouch! I feel for you!
> 
> Thankfully, I'm retired from that business now. I can't help you anymore.......  I tried pulling some strings for a friend last month. The response on the phone was basically "Susquatch who?" Apparently all traces of my career have been erased and I don't exist there anymore.
> 
> I'm a farmer now. Wanna buy some corn? LOL!



Its all good, my supplier takes care of me. They had a new set sitting on the counter by the time i got back there. Shit happens.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

Beautiful! I love it!


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## Darren (Jan 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> BTW, that's a bad place for a wire connection repair. If you do repair it, make sure you solder the wires together and use a good quality shrink wrap with internal sealer. No crimp on connectors allowed.


 I wasn't about to repair them, at 30 minutes old....But i've repaired many of them when thats all that was needed.


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## Darren (Jan 5, 2022)

Found a bit of time to finish up the DRO install on the Emco V13 lathe. I'm not entirely happy with the guards the way i set them up, and will be changing a few things, but for now they will work. I really like having the RPM readout on the display all neat and tidy. With the VFD, its variable from 6 rpm in low gear to over 3500 in High gear, so its nice to know. I still have to do some compensation on the X axis, as its off about 0.001 over 2", and these are all 1 micron scales, so it should be able to be bang on. 

Here's some pics:


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## YYCHM (Jan 5, 2022)

Cool..... I've never seen one with RPM displayed.


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## PeterT (Jan 5, 2022)

Does your lathe have a FWD/OFF/REV handle off the apron that activates motor contact switches in the headstock area? if so, what was involved with plumbing electrons to integrate the VFD?


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## Darren (Jan 5, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Does your lathe have a FWD/OFF/REV handle off the apron that activates motor contact switches in the headstock area? if so, what was involved with plumbing electrons to integrate the VFD?


 yes it does. The switch is in the cover plate for the QCGB, it has a common, and fwd/rev contacts that would normally go to the fwd/rev contactors in the cabinet at the back. They now hook up to the VFD and tell it what to do.


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## Susquatch (Jan 6, 2022)

This is beautiful @dfloen. Makes me want to drive to TBay to see it in person! 

Sooooo many questions! 

Are those T-slots on your cross slide? If so, a bad case of jealousy is creeping in! Bet moving the tool holder back N forth on the cross slide makes machining from the back side sooooo much easier! Mine is a 14" but the most I can actually do is around 12. The tool holder just can't reach without a billion gymnastics that blow the rigidity out of the water (or should I say oil). 

Why did you put the scale on the front of the compound? Isn't that asking for chip problems? Doesn't that cramp your tool reach? 



dfloen said:


> With the VFD, its variable from 6 rpm in low gear to over 3500 in High gear, so its nice to know.



I assume that is head speed still using the gears. What motor speeds (hz or rpm) does it take to do that? What was your previous minimum speed? 

Is your motor vfd rated? If not, did you have to put a fan on it? 

Ive also been looking at DROs with built in RPM display. The DRO screen on yours looks new (I see film on the screen). If so, what model is it?  Do you still have a link? 

I love your ?XA tool holder rack. I did exactly the same thing. But it looks like you added a smaller rack for drill chucks and centers. I'll be adding that too. I'm also thinking about adding something for all the Allen keys and wrenches that fit the lathe. I raided old partial sets and some auction lots so I could have dedicated tools just for the lathe. Nothing worse than having to scour the barn to find that wrench to lock down the compound nuts. 

I don't see a light. What do you do for lighting? Mine burned out the switch. Prolly caused by some China halogen bulbs I bought in volume that were higher wattage than claimed. But regardless, I have to rig up a new light - hopefully using the old lamp hardware. 

I only see one foot under the headstock. I assume that there is another one in the back. But how do you align the headstock to the bed with only two feet? 

Sorry for so many questions. Like I said up front, I'd love to visit instead......


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## Darren (Jan 6, 2022)

At work. So I'll have to make this quick 


Yes, it's tee slotted, but the compound has a resess and a pin, cannot be moved. On my previous v10, the compound could be put anywhere. 

The lathe had a DRO before,  and was removed when i got it. They put the scale on the left, so I did too. I only had to drill one more hole for this DRO install. 

The motor is a dual speed,  4 pole/2 pole, 1750/3500 rpm. Im using the low speed windings.  In standard configuration,  the lathe did 30-2500. With the VFD I have widened the range a bit. 

The motor is not VFD rated. If it dies, it dies. I won't likely run it too slow. 

BXA tool holders. 

No light yet, I have good LED lighting in the shop. 

There are 4 feet, so you can only align for twist.  It's pretty stiff.  I made those for risers mostly as I'm fairly tall. 

Visit anytime!


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## Susquatch (Jan 6, 2022)

dfloen said:


> No light yet, I have good LED lighting in the shop.



That would not work for me. My eyes have divorced me and are off on their own journey to parts unknown leaving me behind in the dark. 



dfloen said:


> There are 4 feet, so you can only align for twist. It's pretty stiff. I made those for risers mostly as I'm fairly tall.



That's really unusual I think. Have you evaluated it to see what it's actually like? 

I'm tall too. Only 6-3 now with old age shrinkage. Same goes for my body mass - was 260 all muscle then I ended up in hospital with kidney problems and traded a lot of my muscle mass for fat. . I still have no problem reaching or gronking on anything. But man I really hate bending over. My bottom shelves are all empty. 

When you get home, can you look at the make and model of your DRO readout? It looks quite similar to the ones I've been looking at. It would be good to know if I can reach out to you for help when I finally push the green buy button. 

That said, I'll prolly do my knee mill first.


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## Darren (Jan 6, 2022)

It's a Ditron D80


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## Darren (Jan 6, 2022)

I built a similar rack on my SM 1660, but instead of the lip at the lower edge, i put blades to hold the tool holders by the dovetail. I like the way I did the V13 better.


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## Darren (Jan 6, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That would not work for me. My eyes have divorced me and are off on their own journey to parts unknown leaving me behind in the dark.



I will be adding a work light, but I wanted to get the DRO mounted up first. 



Susquatch said:


> That's really unusual I think. Have you evaluated it to see what it's actually like?


I have a Starret 12" precision level. The bed is straight and true, with no twist. It had a bit of twist which took a month to tune out of it, as it doesn't actually respond right away to adjustments like my bigger lathe. Might have something to do with the hockey pucks embedded in the feet. 




Susquatch said:


> When you get home, can you look at the make and model of your DRO readout? It looks quite similar to the ones I've been looking at. It would be good to know if I can reach out to you for help when I finally push the green buy button.


Absolutely


Susquatch said:


> That said, I'll prolly do my knee mill first.


I'd do the mill first too. I rely on my DRO on the mill, but its a luxury on a lathe.


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## Susquatch (Jan 6, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have a Starret 12" precision level. The bed is straight and true, with no twist. It had a bit of twist which took a month to tune out of it, as it doesn't actually respond right away to adjustments like my bigger lathe. Might have something to do with the hockey pucks embedded in the feet.



I didn't mean to evaluate the level. I meant to evaluate the concentricity of the spindle axis VS the ways.


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## Darren (Jan 6, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I didn't mean to evaluate the level. I meant to evaluate the concentricity of the spindle axis VS the ways.



It doesn't turn a taper, at all, that i can measure.  Mind you, i haven't done many long cuts.






A pic with a toolholder to show that the scale and guard isn't really that close to the action.


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## Dabbler (Jan 11, 2022)

So this is a week late, but I coerced Shars into selling me a full set of D1-6 studs at 7.50 each, but the shipping was 30$ so around 70$ all in.   I ordered them last week, and they arrived this morning.


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## Darren (Jan 11, 2022)

I have been searching high and low for them.  It's driving me bonkers.  I'm glad t
You found a cheap source of them though.


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## deleted_user (Jan 11, 2022)

Nice project. you're very lucky to have two of my favourite lathes. 

If I ever manage to get rural property that allows me to have a real shop I will buy a Monarch 10EE to restore and use.


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## Darren (Jan 11, 2022)

Thanks.  The V13 maybe going up for sale in a year or two, when the Monarch is done. I dunno though. Machines are like puppies. Hard to let go of, and I want to take them all home!


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## Susquatch (Jan 11, 2022)

dfloen said:


> It doesn't turn a taper, at all, that i can measure.  Mind you, i haven't done many long cuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just noticed your reply. The status notifications don't seem to work well. 

I am about as embarrassed as I get to admit that I thought we were talking about the cross-slide here. This is almost as bad as calling your wife by your girlfriend's name and then thinking you were talking to her too...... 

Ya, the compound prolly isn't much of a problem. Sorry about that...... 

My real concern was a scale on the cross-slide. The chuck side is too busy, and the backside can get hit by the tailstock. Some users even deliberately make contact with the tailstock routinely.


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## Darren (Jan 11, 2022)

There is a stop on the bottom of the tailstock to prevent it from hitting the carriage.  It's about 1/8" short for preventing the tailstock from making contact with the reader head. I need to make an extension for it.


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## Susquatch (Jan 11, 2022)

dfloen said:


> There is a stop on the bottom of the tailstock to prevent it from hitting the carriage.  It's about 1/8" short for preventing the tailstock from making contact with the reader head. I need to make an extension for it.



I see. That makes sense. I could easily add that to my lathe when I get to it. Truth is that I should really add rubber bumpers. 

My DRO priority is my mill. I'm getting closer to that day as time passes.


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## Susquatch (Jan 11, 2022)

dfloen said:


> It doesn't turn a taper, at all, that i can measure.  Mind you, i haven't done many long cuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Another related question now that I know that this was your compound. How is the readout calibrated? Does it show actual compound linear movement or is it setup to show the x-component thereof? Or is this latter even possible?


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## Darren (Jan 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Another related question now that I know that this was your compound. How is the readout calibrated? Does it show actual compound linear movement or is it setup to show the x-component thereof? Or is this latter even possible?


It can show the linear movement of the slide, the sum of the compound and cross slide, or the x position related to the angle of the compound, summed with the crosslide or not.  

I wanted it on the compound because it makes very fine cuts really easy.


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## YYCHM (Jan 11, 2022)

dfloen said:


> It can show the linear movement of the slide, the sum of the compound and cross slide, or the x position related to the angle of the compound, summed with the crosslide or not.
> 
> I wanted it on the compound because it makes very fine cuts really easy.



That's a pretty sophisticated DRO.  What the heck did that thing cost?


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## Darren (Jan 11, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> That's a pretty sophisticated DRO.  What the heck did that thing cost?


$980 if I recall correctly.  

It's pretty standard for a good DRO to have those features in a 3 axis setup. I liked the integrated Tach too. 

The really good DROs have constant surface speed as a way to control the spindle speed through the VFD, based on x position. I will have that on the Monarch,  I think.


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## Susquatch (Jan 12, 2022)

dfloen said:


> $980 if I recall correctly.
> 
> It's pretty standard for a good DRO to have those features in a 3 axis setup. I liked the integrated Tach too.
> 
> The really good DROs have constant surface speed as a way to control the spindle speed through the VFD, based on x position. I will have that on the Monarch,  I think.



Maybe I do want a DRO on my lathe before my mill...... 

All that kind of stuff should be easy to do in the electronics. But I really worry when they are both designed and built in China. I also worry that I won't be able to read the manual and/or that the manual won't be remotely complete. 

I read elsewhere about a member on another forum with a 3 axis unit who didn't know that a 4th input could be combined with the 3rd to get a total display. (Knee + Quill =Z) 

It's a bit SCARY, but then again  two years ago even the idea of getting a DRO was not in the $ cards at all. Then the guys on here put me onto Ali and suddenly I'm thinking 4 axis with RPM before I die!


----------



## Darren (Jan 12, 2022)

On my mill I do not have a DRO for either the quill or knee. I have a very good Mitutoyo 2 axis though. I may add a second DRO for the z, one that is capable of both summing z+z, and independent display.  

I also thought about seeing if a 4 axis Ditron unit Is capable of reading the 2 Mitutoyo scales that I have now on the mill, then I could move the Mitutoyo to the 1660.  I'd order a 4 axis Ditron with 2 z axis scales for the mill and 2 scales for my 16x60.  That is if the Mitutoyo head unit can read the Ditron scales as well . The idea is to not waste the 2 very expensive Mitutoyo scales that are already mounted on the mill. 

I'm pretty happy with the Ditron stuff so far. Very well built, easy setup, minimal chinglish. Ditron has been around at least 20 years from the searches I did. Half the price of Dro pros


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## Susquatch (Jan 12, 2022)

dfloen said:


> On my mill I do not have a DRO for either the quill or knee. I have a very good Mitutoyo 2 axis though. I may add a second DRO for the z, one that is capable of both summing z+z, and independent display.
> 
> I also thought about seeing if a 4 axis Ditron unit Is capable of reading the 2 Mitutoyo scales that I have now on the mill, then I could move the Mitutoyo to the 1660.  I'd order a 4 axis Ditron with 2 z axis scales for the mill and 2 scales for my 16x60.  That is if the Mitutoyo head unit can read the Ditron scales as well . The idea is to not waste the 2 very expensive Mitutoyo scales that are already mounted on the mill.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the Ditron stuff so far. Very well built, easy setup, minimal chinglish. Ditron has been around at least 20 years from the searches I did. Half the price of Dro pros



Where did you get the ditron? 

Part of the way I am thinking is to get the best I can find at a reasonable price. 

The other part is to pay a bit more or a bit less to get what ever others here have so we can collaborate. Nothing worse that being all alone with nobody around who has a clue about how to help with whatever you have. 

I ought to be real comfy with a display unit of any kind since I designed stuff that worked like that myself. But I designed stuff like that myself so I'm not very comfy at all! 

I've been to China on business. Didn't like what I saw.


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## Hacker (Jan 12, 2022)

dfloen said:


> For anyone wondering how the lift went,  it was a piece of cake! View attachment 19374View attachment 19375View attachment 19376


I am a little late to this party. I had to laugh as that is exactly how I got my lathe and mill off my trailer. Mine was a bit sketchier as I used my dump trailer and it was too wide at the wheels to get it all the way back between the hoist posts. I had to ratchet strap the front of the box down and slide the lathe back with the skid steer then lift it off. I was smarter with the mill and used the car hauler.


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## Darren (Jan 12, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I am a little late to this party. I had to laugh as that is exactly how I got my lathe and mill off my trailer. Mine was a bit sketchier as I used my dump trailer and it was too wide at the wheels to get it all the way back between the hoist posts. I had to ratchet strap the front of the box down and slide the lathe back with the skid steer then lift it off. I was smarter with the mill and used the car hauler.



But did you have a car on the hoist while you lifted them?


----------



## Darren (Jan 12, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Where did you get the ditron?
> 
> Part of the way I am thinking is to get the best I can find at a reasonable price.
> 
> ...


 I bought the Ditron on Amazon..... It was easy.

I had a ToAuto on my V10p, and it was OK, but after doing the first real work on the V13 since installing the Ditron, I can tell you, it was well worth paying the extra money. Making new blade guide buttons for my DoAll bandsaw. The bearings are 9.98mm id and i wanted a nice tight slip fit. Took a cut, measured 11.52, punched that into the DRO, took 0.52, measured 11.01, and so on, and nailed 9.95 on the first try. Having the RPM right there is super nice too, as i've said before.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 13, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I bought the Ditron on Amazon..... It was easy.
> 
> I had a ToAuto on my V10p, and it was OK, but after doing the first real work on the V13 since installing the Ditron, I can tell you, it was well worth paying the extra money. Making new blade guide buttons for my DoAll bandsaw. The bearings are 9.98mm id and i wanted a nice tight slip fit. Took a cut, measured 11.52, punched that into the DRO, took 0.52, measured 11.01, and so on, and nailed 9.95 on the first try. Having the RPM right there is super nice too, as i've said before.



Thank you! That is impressive. 

You are also reminding me that something I have not been thinking about at all is the automatic metric conversion.

Did you buy the scales separately?


----------



## Darren (Jan 13, 2022)

I bought the scales with it. They will message you to get the exact scale lengths.

The metric conversion is a definite bonus of any dro.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 13, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I bought the scales with it. They will message you to get the exact scale lengths.
> 
> The metric conversion is a definite bonus of any dro.



Thanks Darren. I smell a plan coming together. Do you know if the display unit will work with Magnetic scales? I think I'd prefer that over the other alternatives - more compact, user trimmable, robust, accurate, latest technology. If I knew they worked with it I'd get the DRO on Amazon and buy the scales on Ali.


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## Darren (Jan 13, 2022)

The scales I have are magnetic.  I did trim 2 of my scales to make them fit the way I wanted.  I'd order the package all from Ditron. Then you know they will work correctly. Also, not all D80 displays come with the rpm sensor kit. Its an option.


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## Susquatch (Jan 13, 2022)

dfloen said:


> The scales I have are magnetic.  I did trim 2 of my scales to make them fit the way I wanted.  I'd order the package all from Ditron. Then you know they will work correctly. Also, not all D80 displays come with the rpm sensor kit. Its an option.



Awesome! Sounds like a plan! 

I actually prefer that. I just didn't see that option when I looked. Maybe I found the wrong product.


----------



## Hacker (Jan 13, 2022)

dfloen said:


> But did you have a car on the hoist while you lifted them?


Thankfully no. Having that car on the hoist must have been a real PIA when you were doing the rigging.


----------



## Darren (Jan 27, 2022)

Been busy in the shop lately, but finally got some machine shop time.

When i sold my Emco V10P, I kept a couple of the chucks I had for it. One Bison 5" set tru 3 jaw, and a 4" 6 jaw set tru Buck.  The V10P was a threaded spindle, and the V13 is D1-4, so  I had to adapt them to new backplates. I couldn't find reasonably priced direct fit. The Bison plate was about $650. I bought two 6" backplates from ebay for $60 each but they needed a lot of work. Here's some pics







This was meant for a set true chuck, but the ID was bigger than the OD that i needed for the 4"











Made a new spigot for the set true set screws to push against.





I cut the new 'spigot' to have about a 1.5 thou press fit. 






I slathered a bit of retaining compound on it and tapped it into place







Then i parted off the excess spigot, faced it to length, cut it to diameter, and finished the face of the backplate






Here it is with the chuck bolted down and adjusting for runout






Looks pretty tiny...4" chuck on a 13" lathe, but its a 6 jaw, and runout is very good across the range of jaw capacity, maybe 2 tenths.


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## YYCHM (Jan 27, 2022)

What OD and TPI was the V10P spindle?  Was that the machine that had locking back plates that used a locking ring?


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## Darren (Jan 27, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What OD and TPI was the V10P spindle?  Was that the machine that had locking back plates that used a locking ring?



it was 1.5" 8tpi, same as my BS-0 indexing head, so i'll be able to still use the locking backplates and these chucks on the dividing head

Keep in mind, the V10 series of lathes also came with an M39 and a non threaded DIN 3 stud nose, if you go looking for a backplate


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## Darren (Jan 27, 2022)

Starting on the next project







I need a plate of metal of some sort roughly 7.75" dia






This old brake drum is hiding the piece i need!






parted off the piece i don't need. Cuts like butter.











theres the plate, and its already round


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## Darren (Jan 27, 2022)

11" to 8" in short order







more to come


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## Darren (Jan 27, 2022)

more to come.


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## StevSmar (Jan 29, 2022)

You have nice lathes! Can’t wait to see how the Monarch turns out!


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## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> You have nice lathes! Can’t wait to see how the Monarch turns out!



Thanks very much. I have all the parts now for converting the 10ee's AC generator to single phase, using the steelman method. Should be interesting. Once up and running, I plan to do some accuracy checks, then, if all is good, it'll get a good paint job and general refurb. Might take a bit to get to it though. It was an unexpected project.


----------



## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

I had typed up a fairly long post and then my tab crashed, so heres a few pics.












yes thats an endmill in a drill chuck. Maybe if i had a power drawbar i'd have used an er collet . Someday....













thats it for tonight


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

What the heck are you making?  BTB - I can't expand your images for a better look for some reason?


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## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

Making a power drawbar. Not sure on the pics...I'll look into it


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## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

just a test





looks like flickr changed their embedding settings...


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## Tom O (Jan 29, 2022)

Worked for me


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## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

Yea, going to be a pain in the ass to post pics on here now. It was a few clicks before, now its a lot more. I can't sit down for a beer and post pics. All my older pics are clickable, at least on my end.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Yea, going to be a pain in the ass to post pics on here now. It was a few clicks before, now its a lot more. I can't sit down for a beer and post pics. All my older pics are clickable, at least on my end.



Maybe mine don't expand on other devices either? PC WIN10?


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## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

are you using flickr? or hosting on this site? I take picks on my phone, flickr uploads them to the cloud, and i usually post on my laptop, when i'm posting on here. Worked just fine in the past, now the pics are all low res. Not sure what changed.


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## PeterT (Jan 30, 2022)

post 155 on except 163 on are all thumbnail-ish size for me.


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## Darren (Jan 30, 2022)

20220127_214503 by Darren Floen, on Flickr






20220129_215831 by Darren Floen, on Flickr
ok i think i might have this figured out...


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## Susquatch (Jan 30, 2022)

@dfloen & @YYCHM

I couldn't enlarge those first few pics either. I encountered this separately to Craig. Just wanted a better look. I assumed you chose thumbnails instead of full size.

Later pictures are fine. I can practically see the grain structure of the steel in that test photo!

No flikr here. All direct uploads.


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## Darren (Jan 30, 2022)

i will try the direct uploads in the future. thanks


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## Darren (Feb 2, 2022)

Finished up the power drawbar today. I'm going to do a bit more with the airline but not until my shop piping is done.  I can't believe I didn't do this sooner. It works awesome!


----------



## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

Hey looks good!


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 5, 2022)

That looks great!  A power drawbar is a very underrated addition to a mill.


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## Darren (Feb 19, 2022)

I recently did a job for a fella and ended up with some Cat bucket pins. I was going to make some r8 tooling, but it turns out that the cross holes for the grease passages interfere with my plans.  So i just messed around a bit and hogged some metal. I love taking whisp cuts of a few tenths to make er fit perfect, but sometimes you just gotta let er have it.


----------



## YotaBota (Feb 21, 2022)

Show off,, lol. What was the feed and rpm?


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

lol was just playin. Thats 1000 rpm, i varied it a bit during the cut from probably 700-1400 to see what would happen. 0.005"/rev feed. On mild steel with a better tool it'll do a fair bit more and at a faster feed.


----------



## YotaBota (Feb 21, 2022)

And that's a 2" or 2.5" pin?


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

yes 2", now about 1.4"


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

A while back, my new good buddy @Brent H was kind enough to give me a parting blade and holder suitable for my 16" SM that he couldn't use.  Tonight I finally had some time to start working on it. Instead of putting the blade holder into a qctp holder, I cut the dovetail and made it into a QCTP holder out of it. Recently @YYCHM  had some dovetail issues, so I thought i would post a few pics.

The first three pics are how i got the holder from Brent, the rest are of cutting and measuring the dovetail with pins and an adjustable parallel.

Here's a little video of power tapping the height adjuster.  I was tapping a blind hole so the chuck was a bit loose. That and I bumped the y handle on my way to the beer fridge and I didn't have the DRO set...


----------



## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

All finished

Yes, I know the height aduster prevents access to the blade screws. I'll replace them with regular hex head cap screws.

Thanks @Brent H !


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## Brent H (Mar 5, 2022)

@dfloen - you are most welcome - way to take that holder and put your skills to work “outside the box”. Very well done!! (Insert hand clap emoji) glad you have a use for that tool.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks. Looks like it will be a good compliment to the blade holder I made for my HSS blade. I like that it is choked up a bit more. Probably a bit more rigid in the harder stuff.

Stay tuned for some trepanning action. I have to hurry up and build the steady rest for the V13. I'm sure my buddy in Alabama probably wants his back . He was gracious enough to lend me his to copy, but its been close to a year.


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 6, 2022)

Looking good on the QCTP holder. The steady rest build will be fun to watch.


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## Darren (Mar 18, 2022)

I'm finally beginning to clean up the Monarch 10ee.  Using dish soap and water in a spray bottle and a parts washer with water based cleaner. The old grease must be tougher than the newer grease. This stuff is tough! Might have to break out the diesel fuel for this job!

So far the compound ways feel good from end to end, no tight or loose spots, checked after removing the screw, the screw itself looks very good and is snug on the bronze nut. The play was in the double thrust bearing assembly.  Not sure how to adjust it just yet. Shims maybe?


----------



## RobinHood (Mar 18, 2022)

A lot of the old manuals recommend the use of Kerosene for cleaning parts. That’s what I tend to use. TSP also works very well. Both still require a whole lot of elbow grease though.


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## Darren (Mar 18, 2022)

I think i will use some diesel to loosen everything up, just brushed on and then try tsp. The water based stuff in the parts washer works, but takes time. The rest of the lathe won't fit in the parts washer.

edit: yea diesel is taking everything off.  just dissolves it like nothing. Final cleanup with water based will probably work fine


----------



## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> I think i will use some diesel to loosen everything up, just brushed on and then try tsp. The water based stuff in the parts washer works, but takes time. The rest of the lathe won't fit in the parts washer.
> 
> edit: yea diesel is taking everything off.  just dissolves it like nothing. Final cleanup with water based will probably work fine



I'm a really big fan of diesel fuel for jobs like this. I always have a little laying around from when I drain the water out of the bottom of my diesel fuel tanks.


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## Darren (Mar 18, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'm a really big fan of diesel fuel for jobs like this. I always have a little laying around from when I drain the water out of the bottom of my diesel fuel tanks.


I have some machines kicking around, so i always have a couple jerry cans

its working really well. I was trying the green approach initially, but it just doesn't cut it. The fuel is melting all the old crud. I was hoping to get the motor/generator out tonight, but once i saw that i couldn't even see the bolts, i figured an initial cleaning was in order... Good thing is that i can collect all the crud and fuel and burn it in the woodstove. Saves some wood.


----------



## Darren (Mar 29, 2022)

I've been busy in the shop lately with customer work, auto repair, my new full-time work from home job. However,  I cleared one major job out of the shop so I have a bit more room.  Starting to get at the 10ee teardown in hopes to get it painted in the next week or so.  Gathering up all my paint supplies,  I found that my full gallon of high build primer had gone lumpy. 






We will see how this works


----------



## 6.5 Fan (Mar 29, 2022)

A couple of hours, my god man crank it up to warp speed and be painting now.


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## Darren (Mar 29, 2022)

LOL the SM is not the lathe i'm painting....


i should have put some ball bearings in the can! doh

Edit: OK, handful of bearings and a 5/8 nut is in there.


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## Dan Dubeau (Mar 29, 2022)

That's one of those times you triple check you're in low range before flipping the clutch lol


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## Darren (Mar 29, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> That's one of those times you triple check you're in low range before flipping the clutch lol


Definitely ....40 rpm is enough,  320 and we'd have a red ceiling.


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## Mcgyver (Mar 31, 2022)

Darren said:


> I found that my full gallon of high build primer had gone lumpy.



Thats funny, nice creative use.  A million years ago I rigged up a crank running off a faceplate connect to hinged board.  Baseball glove breaker inner....yes, lots of duct tape was involved and it sort of worked lol


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## Darren (Mar 31, 2022)

Getting it a bit more stripped down, handles and covers off. Keep finding more and more thick gunk. It's like tar.  I think the next step is to get it completely stripped then chemical dipped. I didn't want to go that far with it but I can't work with it like this.


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## PeterT (Mar 31, 2022)

Maybe you have already come across this Youtube video series FWIW. I haven't watched much if it. Its a bit slow at times but does show some of the intricacies of the business end of the machine.
The Monarch 10EE 7000.00 Mistake: Spindle Removal​


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## Dabbler (Mar 31, 2022)

The new spindle he does the repair with came from an unknown viewer on Canada  -- Yay Canada!


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## Darren (Mar 31, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Maybe you have already come across this Youtube video series FWIW. I haven't watched much if it. Its a bit slow at times but does show some of the intricacies of the business end of the machine.
> The Monarch 10EE 7000.00 Mistake: Spindle Removal​


Yes, I saw that. He really lucked out finding a replacement spindle from a viewer! I checked mine already and it is very good. 

I need to get a better d1-3 chuck for it. The one it came with is pretty crappy and not worth the time. And so begins the rabbit hole of retooling yet another lathe...


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## Dabbler (Mar 31, 2022)

Darren said:


> And so begins the rabbit hole of retooling yet another lathe...



ah yes,  tooling.  the *real* cost of any new machine...


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## Mcgyver (Apr 1, 2022)

Agree on leaving the spindle in place.

The gearbox is something special.  I redid mine, its a complicated assembly.  Tons of rolling element bearings, replaced every one.  Getting it back together was performing Wagners complete Ring Cycle....too long and complicated to be fun and took a lot of rehearsals to get right. 

One thing to make sure of is that you are getting oil through all the lines on the saddle.  They are notorius for getting plugged and will need replacing if they are sp, plus you should change out the metering units at the same time


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 1, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> ah yes,  tooling.  the *real* cost of any new machine...



I was going to say "My new mill wasn't".........

Then I remembered the DRO, the rotary table, a set of ER32 collets, a set of R8 collets (the ones it came with were crap and incomplete), some carbide end mills, some HSS end mills, a new digital edge finder (very cool device worth a separate thread), a bunch of carbide drill bits, a new motor, a new VFD, a drill driver for the knee, some R8 arbours for existing MT3 tooling,....... And prolly a few other things I'm forgetting......

So ya, think I'll keep my mouth shut on that debate, put a big heart on @Dabbler s post, and change mine to:

"What he said"! LOL!


----------



## Hacker (Apr 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I was going to say "My new mill wasn't".........
> 
> Then I remembered the DRO, the rotary table, a set of ER32 collets, a set of R8 collets (the ones it came with were crap and incomplete), some carbide end mills, some HSS end mills, a new digital edge finder (very cool device worth a separate thread), a bunch of carbide drill bits, a new motor, a new VFD, a drill driver for the knee, some R8 arbours for existing MT3 tooling,....... And prolly a few other things I'm forgetting......
> 
> ...


I am sure that you are not finished yet. What type/brand of digital edge finder are you using?


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Agree on leaving the spindle in place.



Im not going to touch it. Bearings feel great, and its properly preloaded.



Mcgyver said:


> The gearbox is something special.  I redid mine, its a complicated assembly.  Tons of rolling element bearings, replaced every one.  Getting it back together was performing Wagners complete Ring Cycle....too long and complicated to be fun and took a lot of rehearsals to get right.



I pulled the feed selector cover off, as you can see in the pics, and everything looks like brand new, so nothing in the Norton box will be touched. Everything is working nice and smooth as it should. At this point, I'm only removing what i have to to be able to clean/paint, and mask properly.



Mcgyver said:


> One thing to make sure of is that you are getting oil through all the lines on the saddle.  They are notorius for getting plugged and will need replacing if they are sp, plus you should change out the metering units at the same time



I will be pulling the saddle and apron and cleaning out all the lines. The pump does work, as its leaving fresh oil on the ways every time i move the handwheel, no matter how many times i wipe it down. Its annoying because i'm cleaning, but makes me happy at the same time.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 1, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I am sure that you are not finished yet. What type/brand of digital edge finder are you using?



I knew that. It was all just my goofy sense of humour right from the git go. 

The new edge finder is an accusize. I actually created a separate thread for it. See the following:

Thread 'New Digital Edge Finder' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-digital-edge-finder.5036/


----------



## Brent H (Apr 1, 2022)

@Darren : both my Utilathes are D1-3 spindle type.  I had to buy new for the first one as the jaws pointed the work at the sky.  The second one had a good 3 jaw with it so that was great.    If you have a  decent 3 or 4 jaw that can bolt onto a D1-3 back plate I have had good luck with:





I purchased a couple 5” and a couple 6” over the time I have had the lathe


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 1, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @Darren : both my Utilathes are D1-3 spindle type.  I had to buy new for the first one as the jaws pointed the work at the sky.  The second one had a good 3 jaw with it so that was great.    If you have a  decent 3 or 4 jaw that can bolt onto a D1-3 back plate I have had good luck with:
> View attachment 22628
> 
> I purchased a couple 5” and a couple 6” over the time I have had the lathe



I've bought quite a few of the D1-5 versions of this to attach various fixtures I have made over time. In one case, the backplate became the fixture.

The accusize backplates come in two levels of quality. The better ones are awesome! I didn't even know about them till they sent me the wrong one once. The replacement was the better one and they let me keep the old one!


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @Darren : both my Utilathes are D1-3 spindle type.  I had to buy new for the first one as the jaws pointed the work at the sky.  The second one had a good 3 jaw with it so that was great.    If you have a  decent 3 or 4 jaw that can bolt onto a D1-3 back plate I have had good luck with:
> View attachment 22628
> 
> I purchased a couple 5” and a couple 6” over the time I have had the lathe



I have a few of those too, and no issues either. The issue is that i've already spent that on d1-4 and d1-6 stuff, and several of them to get my chucks mounted on the other two lathes. I really wish the 10ee was d1-4.  I'd be all set.  The Bison 5" set tru on the v13 would also be great on the 10ee, but that would be the 4th time i've bought a backplate for that chuck...

I do have a Hardinge Sjogren d1-3 collet chuck and collets for it already though.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 1, 2022)

Darren said:


> I really wish the 10ee was d1-4. I'd be all set.



Hmmmmmm...... I thought this was Darren that we are talking about here! 

Make a D1-3 to D1-4 adapter. Should be downright easy for the Darren guy I know!


----------



## Brent H (Apr 1, 2022)

I hear you @Darren - hence was my interest in keeping the second Utilathe as now I am good to go and all my tooling, holders and chucks are swappable between both machines.  I have a few things to make for Miss Metric but after the chip guard is complete there will be a great stock storage space between the lathes.

I will keep an eye out for chucks for you.


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Thanks @Brent H 

You have a good setup there for sure. Its great having two lathes in the shop. Having two that can share tooling is even better. I've often thought about selling the V13 and 10ee and just keeping the 1660. Its super accurate, heavy, powerful, cuts every imaginable thread without changing out any change gears....but...its heavy to operate as well and small parts are much more tiring. The Emco has the DRO on it now, which makes it way more better.....Its like trying to pick between 3 hot girls here...


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmmmm...... I thought this was Darren that we are talking about here!
> 
> Make a D1-3 to D1-4 adapter. Should be downright easy for the Darren guy I know!


You might actually be on to something here, or at least on something!  I know i'm not keeping 3 lathes though.  I may buy one new 3 jaw for it and leave it up to the new owner..


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

I soaked the tar with diesel fuel overnight and now it's coming off in sheets.  It's almost like it was undercoated inside. Maybe for noise reduction? I don't know.  Its completely coated like it was spayed. At first I thought that the fan must have blown the gunk around for the last 73 years,  but there isn't any tar on the motor/generator or the drive motor.  Weird...


----------



## Brent H (Apr 1, 2022)

Looks like a big coating of oil build up, years and and years - stuff dries out and is fugly!!


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Sure is ugly! She's all coming out now


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## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Hopefully I'm not boring anyone here but this thing is falling apart!

The single phase steelman method conversion is well under way. Im committed now I guess.

 Here's some pics

edit: i need to clean my phone...sorry for the crappy pics


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 1, 2022)

Darren said:


> Hopefully I'm not boring anyone here but this thing is falling apart!
> 
> The single phase steelman method conversion is well under way. Im committed now I guess.
> 
> ...



Holy crap Darren! I must have missed something. What the heck are you doing now?


----------



## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Holy crap Darren! I must have missed something. What the heck are you doing now?



Ripping apart the 10ee to clean it up and convert it from 440v 3 phase to 240v single phase, using a method called the steelman method.  Bins full of soaking parts, parts washer overflowing, 6 gallons of diesel through the pump sprayer, shop being heated exclusively with 10ee scum in the woodstove.  Wait for the assembly pics. You'd never believe how much stuff they packed into a small 12.5x20" lathe. There's 400x the parts of a typical lathe. LOL its crazy.


----------



## YotaBota (Apr 1, 2022)

Darren said:


> Hopefully I'm not boring anyone here


Nope, enjoying the show. It's mechanical and in pieces, what's not to like.


----------



## Brent H (Apr 1, 2022)

Go @Darren go!!!  It is amazing the crap that comes off theses machines!!


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## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

I think once the cleaning is done,  this will get fun. It just turned way worse than I thought it would be.  But, making headway.  I only really have the saddle and apron to remove and clean now. You guys still like pics, right? 

I can't seem to caption individual photos and I forgot to clean my phone.  It's gonna hurt me more than you when I need these pics to try to reassemble this mess. I can see why people tend to gut them and put vfds and 3 phase motors.


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 1, 2022)

Darren said:


> You guys still like pics, right?



Keep the pics coming please


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## Darren (Apr 1, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Keep the pics coming please


You're the boss!

It is funny seeing the red rotor come out of the parts washer when you see how black it was going in. The stator housing just collapsed the tray in my parts washer. I really need an industrial unit for what i do here. A big dishwasher...


----------



## Dabbler (Apr 1, 2022)

very nice work!  it will be a great machine when done.


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## PeterT (Apr 2, 2022)

In a weird way, I find gunk cleaning kind of therapeutic. If the machine could speak it would be saying thank you. It's like a fresh start. Mechanical/electrical/alignment 'fixing operations' is the important part of course, but at minimum a clean machine makes it easier to see what's going on. That blackened rotor picture is crazy. I like the old Basement Shop guy videos, he did quite a few machine resto's & I found them quite educational. I thought maybe he was a shareholder in Purple Power LOL.


----------



## Darren (Apr 3, 2022)

So the "tar" inside the lathe body is in fact a sprayed on coating.  These a couple areas where it had been masked before spraying.  It had to have been applied during manufacturing.


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## Dabbler (Apr 3, 2022)

Darren said:


> So the "tar" inside the lathe body is in fact a sprayed on coating.



You can replace it with bed liner!


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

Darren said:


> So the "tar" inside the lathe body is in fact a sprayed on coating.



Is it by any chance a sound deadener or vibration damper?


----------



## Darren (Apr 3, 2022)

Apparently it is just that.  






						Cleaning the inside of 10ee base
					

There was a past and maybe current oil leak in my 10ee MG which dripped oil down the inside walls at the left end of the lathe  The oil has seemingly degraded the "ruff black coating" located on the casting walls to a grease like consistency. I have been trying to remove the areas of the coating...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				




I'm committed now though as i have been soaking it with fuel. ugh


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## Darren (Apr 3, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> You can replace it with bed liner!


its as tough as any bedliner i've ever seen. Only got soft where it had become oil soaked. That stuff came off easy but deeper into the belly of the beast you'd need an air chisel to put a mark in it. So i have hit a brick wall with that part of the resto.

The other problem is that the stator for the generato's AC motor has degraded insulation and when I tested it I found several partially shorted coils - 2k ohms where it should be infinite/open. Going to take it to the rewinding shop tomorrow. Hopefully its cheaper than the cost of a vfd.....


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## Susquatch (Apr 3, 2022)

Darren said:


> The other problem is that the stator for the generato's AC motor has degraded insulation and when I tested it I found several partially shorted coils - 2k ohms where it should be infinite/open. Going to take it to the rewinding shop tomorrow.



When I saw the photos you posted of the inside of the motor, I was afraid that's what you would find and prayed otherwise. Sorry about that. It sucks.


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## Darren (Apr 3, 2022)

I expect things like motor issues on a 1949 machine.  I can deal with it.  My fear with that is after spending money on a rewind,  3 to 500 I'd guess, and the main contactor is broken,  will I find other electrical issues? Everything is 73 years old. I have a new 5hp 3 phase motor here.  I'd only need to buy a vfd and make an adapter for the backgrar box.  We will see what the motor shop says in the morning.  

Here's some pics


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## 140mower (Apr 3, 2022)

Darren said:


> I expect things like motor issues on a 1949 machine.  I can deal with it.  My fear with that is after spending money on a rewind,  3 to 500 I'd guess, and the main contactor is broken,  will I find other electrical issues? Everything is 73 years old. I have a new 5hp 3 phase motor here.  I'd only need to buy a vfd and make an adapter for the backgrar box.  We will see what the motor shop says in the morning.
> 
> Here's some pics


I see that the quality control manager is overseeing your work in the last picture..... Good luck with the rewind shop. Hopefully things work out. They sure are a pretty machine....


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## Darren (Apr 3, 2022)

140mower said:


> I see that the quality control manager is overseeing your work in the last picture..... Good luck with the rewind shop. Hopefully things work out. They sure are a pretty machine....


He is always watching me. 

Hopefully I can make them feel sorry for me and give me a deal. I'll tell them it's for my mothers electric wheelchair or something. 

It'll work out either way.  I'd like to keep it all original but not at significant cost or questionable reliability.  I did see the machine run when I picked it up but didn't really get into it too much. He had it wired for 440v , running a RPC into a transformer,  running the generator which powered the motor.  A vfd with an ac motor sounds so much simpler


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

Sad day today...just got quoted 1500 to 2000 to rewind the stator.  

I'm going to have a better look at it and see if there's anything I can do to repair it.  Not looking good though.


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## YotaBota (Apr 4, 2022)

Darren said:


> Sad day today...just got quoted 1500 to 2000 to rewind the stator.


That's a bit of an ouch, have you got a trades school near by that might do it as a teaching aid? It may cost you materials but that shouldn't be much.


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## 140mower (Apr 4, 2022)

Darren said:


> Sad day today...just got quoted 1500 to 2000 to rewind the stator.
> 
> I'm going to have a better look at it and see if there's anything I can do to repair it.  Not looking good though.


Yikes!!!!!  That certainly puts a damper on things. 
I wonder if that's their real price? Or the "we are super busy, but if he wants to pay it, we'll squeeze it in" price?


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## Brent H (Apr 4, 2022)

@Darren is it 440/220 or just a 440 volt motor? 

Can you megger test the windings to see if the insulation is NFG - if not you may be able to do a good clean and varnish to get things into a decent megger result?  

IF it is dual voltage maybe you can run on the 220 windings safely.


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> That's a bit of an ouch, have you got a trades school near by that might do it as a teaching aid? It may cost you materials but that shouldn't be much.


Unfortunately no, but good idea.



140mower said:


> Yikes!!!!!  That certainly puts a damper on things.
> I wonder if that's their real price? Or the "we are super busy, but if he wants to pay it, we'll squeeze it in" price?


he didn't seem too interested in helping me at all, and yup, thats the impression that I got from him. 



Brent H said:


> @Darren is it 440/220 or just a 440 volt motor?
> 
> Can you megger test the windings to see if the insulation is NFG - if not you may be able to do a good clean and varnish to get things into a decent megger result?
> 
> IF it is dual voltage maybe you can run on the 220 windings safely.



its 220/440. 

In factory configuration, its a 9 lead motor with 3 leads connected internally. The Steelman method of converting to single phase invloves removing the stator to cut apart the 3 internal wires and bring them out to make a 12 lead motor. Thats where i'm at now.

in the burnt section, the coils themselves show approx 1 ohm, through the coil, all the others are around 2 ohm. Coil to coil, most are at about 800k ohms, but a couple show 2k ohms, no good.  I looked to see where , but the short is probably buried. I guess you also can't just rewind a few coils, as they get burnt out in an oven.  

I really wanted this to work. It sounded like a spaceship when you started the MG....it was pretty cool. 

I'm going to explore AC servos. I know little about them but apparently they are the hot ticket.  If that doesn't pan out, i will have to adapt the 5hp motor that I have to the backgear box. With a 3.5kw AC servo you don't need any backgear.


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

So....I jumped in my truck and brought the stator to another local shop.  Kilred Winding. Old school guys, father and son, from Austria who actually like to fix things and help people. After some chit chat about what I was trying to accomplish, we brought the stator into the back and hooked it up to the test machine. This machine can pump 10,000 volts through the windings to check for faults. Mine started buzzing at 500 volts, no good, should be good to 2000 volts. The insulation is breaking down.  So after much discussion, they are going to try baking it to get any moisture out, then recoating and retesting it. If it works, we are good. If not, we discussed how to drive the generator with another 3 phase motor by shortening up the housing and removing the rotor from the shaft, making a standalone generator, and adding another motor to drive it with either a belt or a lovejoy coupler.  May not be all that difficult.


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## YotaBota (Apr 4, 2022)

Good you found someone who actually knows what they're doing and wants to help, that kind of knowledge and work ethic is in short supply these days. The last new car we bought we knew more about the car than the salesperson did.


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## Tom O (Apr 4, 2022)

If I remember right Keith Rucker just pulled one out switching to a vfd you might try contacting him about his.


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

Tom O said:


> If I remember right Keith Rucker just pulled one out switching to a vfd you might try contacting him about his.


That's an option too. Thanks!


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## Brent H (Apr 4, 2022)

@Darren - that’s was talking about with  Megger test - cool they did one


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @Darren - that’s was talking about with  Megger test - cool they did one



i have never seen it done before, was pretty cool. It started sizzling and vibrating at less than 500v. I'm pretty happy that i decided to go see them. As soon as i walked in they were willing to listen, and wanted to help. I have a good feeling about this. The cost for them to try to save it is minimal, so it's worth a shot.


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## Brent H (Apr 4, 2022)

For all you electrical guys basically megger testing wires or motor windings:

You hit the wire with a voltage well above it’s used specification -
So on the ship we would megger a 600 volt line/motor at 1000 to 1500 volts.  The insulation will saturate with that increased voltage (like a capacitor type event) and you can read on the meter what the insulation rating is for what you tested.   Typically anything below .5 Mega ohms is cause for immediate repair.  We strive for over 500 plus mega ohms.  

The old meters were dyno’s  and you cranked them.  Lot of guys got zapped for fun. The bad thing was if you left anything on the circuit you were testing you could blow it up - like TV’s and computers.  Shooting 1000 volts into a new TV sucks.   

For our large generators etc. we test them and if they are low we will have them cleaned and baked to remove moisture.  Depending on the motor they can further dip it/increase the varnish to try and save it - as in Darren’s case.  

The reason I asked if it was a 220/440 motor is sometimes the 440 windings are not great but the 220 combination can still work fine.  

There are some cool things you can do with a megger tester.  It is an annual event on the ship. I have one at home somewhere- was great for checking the condition of my well pump with out having to pull out 180 feet of pipe -
Except the test proved I had too -
Dang test!!! LOL.


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## Darren (Apr 4, 2022)

LOL thats awesome. I want one for my shop now.

I feel you on the well pump...mine is 220' and we had to pull it one January at -25c due to a broken wire. I though i was going to die. You can't stop and rest once you start.  Whoever installed it used marettes.....


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## Brent H (Apr 5, 2022)

Marettes!!!   OMG!  That is crazy insane!!! 

Our well is 217’ and the pump sits at about 180 ish.  It is a pain in the arch to haul out - spans a good deal of the back yard / slimy and slippery 1” ABS all the way down to a heavy freaking pump and that PITA torquer.  I have my trusty 1” pipe puller made up just in case.  We have the well head with the side spigot for outdoor watering.  Lots of fun!


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## Darren (Apr 5, 2022)

Brent H said:


> Marettes!!!   OMG!  That is crazy insane!!!
> 
> Our well is 217’ and the pump sits at about 180 ish.  It is a pain in the arch to haul out - spans a good deal of the back yard / slimy and slippery 1” ABS all the way down to a heavy freaking pump and that PITA torquer.  I have my trusty 1” pipe puller made up just in case.  We have the well head with the side spigot for outdoor watering.  Lots of fun!


200' of  vertical, slimy 1" abs, full of water, instantly freezing on the way out of the hole,  with a 30?ish pound pump on the end definitly has some gravity to it.  I actually have to do it again this summer, to add to the casing. It's too low for the grade. I'm going to replace the pump when i do.


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## Hacker (Apr 5, 2022)

Brent H said:


> For all you electrical guys basically megger testing wires or motor windings:
> 
> You hit the wire with a voltage well above it’s used specification -
> So on the ship we would megger a 600 volt line/motor at 1000 to 1500 volts.  The insulation will saturate with that increased voltage (like a capacitor type event) and you can read on the meter what the insulation rating is for what you tested.   Typically anything below .5 Mega ohms is cause for immediate repair.  We strive for over 500 plus mega ohms.
> ...


That is a great idea of using it for testing the well pump. I have been contemplating pulling ours replacing it as I have no idea how old it is .
Many years ago when I actually worked for a living we used a megger all the time for testing grounds and transformers.


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## StevSmar (Apr 7, 2022)

Brent H said:


> ….Typically anything below .5 Mega ohms is cause for immediate repair.  We strive for over 500 plus mega ohms.


Thanks for your insights Brent, I’m developing rules of thumb for when we should replace (600/347V operating) cables with low megger results.

Your suggestion is helpful to build upon.


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## Brent H (Apr 7, 2022)

@StevSmar - the marine electrical standards are under transport Canada TP127 and an  excerpt:
_
An insulation resistance test should be made on all motors, generators and main cabling in the cold condition immediately before the machinery is put into operation and in the warm condition immediately after completion of trials and the values obtained shall be not less than 1 megohm; the insulation resistance values obtained shall be recorded and kept onboard as a permanent reference for future insulation resistance tests._

On board a ship, in a damp or wet environment we seldom see lower than 50 meg - usually it is off scale or “infinite”. 

If you are getting poor readings on cables it can typically be traced to a failure of the protective sheathing letting in water, a nick in the insulation, moisture wicking through cable ends etc.  a lot of times only a small length of conductor is the offending culprit and can be fixed by shortening the conductor or by drying things out and making repairs to the insulation.  We have had poor readings from wires exposed to overheating (continuously) by negligence and the insulation is pooched - sad to chuck a cable out that weighs in at 15  lbs a foot- alas …..


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## StevSmar (Apr 7, 2022)

Brent H said:


> …the marine electrical standards are under transport Canada TP127 and an  excerpt:
> 
> …On board a ship, in a damp or wet environment we seldom see lower than 50 meg - usually it is off scale or “infinite”.


Thanyou again Brent, that’s very helpful.


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## Darren (Apr 12, 2022)

Talked to Gary from Kilred Winding today.....they were successful in the repair of the stator and it passed the tests. I'll be picking it up tomorrow and hopefully reassembling the motor/generator this weekend, maybe even testing it. Super pumped!


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## 140mower (Apr 12, 2022)

Darren said:


> Talked to Gary from Kilred Winding today.....they were successful in the repair of the stator and it passed the tests. I'll be picking it up tomorrow and hopefully reassembling the motor/generator this weekend, maybe even testing it. Super pumped!


Way cool man!  Good luck!


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## Tom O (Apr 12, 2022)

That is good news


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## Susquatch (Apr 12, 2022)

Darren said:


> Talked to Gary from Kilred Winding today.....they were successful in the repair of the stator and it passed the tests. I'll be picking it up tomorrow and hopefully reassembling the motor/generator this weekend, maybe even testing it. Super pumped!



Boy, that turned around pretty amazing! 

You Dancin? If so, post a video so we can all laugh at you..... Er, I mean dance with you!


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## Darren (Apr 12, 2022)

when its up and running i may do a little jig....


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## YotaBota (Apr 13, 2022)

Sounds like a wahoo moment,


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## Tom O (Apr 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Boy, that turned around pretty amazing!
> 
> You Dancin? If so, post a video so we can all laugh at you..... Er, I mean dance with you!






Be careful what you wish for!


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## Hacker (Apr 14, 2022)

Darren said:


> Talked to Gary from Kilred Winding today.....they were successful in the repair of the stator and it passed the tests. I'll be picking it up tomorrow and hopefully reassembling the motor/generator this weekend, maybe even testing it. Super pumped!


That is great news!! Do you know what they did to the stator to repair it?


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## Darren (Apr 14, 2022)

Hacker said:


> That is great news!! Do you know what they did to the stator to repair it?


I haven't been to town to pick it up yet due to bad weather.  Possibly later today. From what they told me before, they were going to clean it, bake it to get any moisture out, then they put it in some sort of pressure cooker to force the insulating paint deep into the windings.  They also put new leads on. Originally this was a 9 lead motor. The reason I had to pull the stator was to access the other 3 internal leads, the star point, that were tied together internally.. Cutting those apart and bringing them out to the terminal box makes it a 12 lead motor. It turns out that for my purposes only 3 leads are really necessary and the other connections can be made internally. So they reconfigured the internal connections to suit my needs and brought 3 leads out.  The downside to that is that it can't be configured for 440v again, but thats not a concern for me..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






As you can see, only 3 leads really need to come out. 

the above image has an error in the relay numbering if anyone is going to use it, 1 and 2 are reversed.


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## Brent H (Apr 14, 2022)

That’s great @Darren - eliminate windings that you do not require.  Sounds like it will be a new motor!!


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## Darren (Apr 14, 2022)

@Brent H  looks like a good fit


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## Brent H (Apr 14, 2022)

That is crazy how similar the compounds look


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## Hacker (Apr 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> I haven't been to town to pick it up yet due to bad weather.  Possibly later today. From what they told me before, they were going to clean it, bake it to get any moisture out, then they put it in some sort of pressure cooker to force the insulating paint deep into the windings.  They also put new leads on. Originally this was a 9 lead motor. The reason I had to pull the stator was to access the other 3 internal leads, the star point, that were tied together internally.. Cutting those apart and bringing them out to the terminal box makes it a 12 lead motor. It turns out that for my purposes only 3 leads are really necessary and the other connections can be made internally. So they reconfigured the internal connections to suit my needs and brought 3 leads out.  The downside to that is that it can't be configured for 440v again, but thats not a concern for me..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think that loosing the ability to connect to 440 will ever be an issue unless it is going back into a commercial setting. Looking forward to seeing this all put back together and running.


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## StevSmar (Apr 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> …the above image has an error…


That’s great you were able to get your motor repaired.

Neat to see the image of how your motor will be physically wired.
(A bit off topic. For the Electrical Engineering work I did (consulting), there was no hands on work. So though I knew in theory how to do things, but I didn’t know in practise. Wiring the cottage was a great way to at least get some practical experience which was very helpful. In my current job (a combination of Transportation and Electrical engineering), it’s amazing how useful the experience of building model planes and working on the cottage has been).


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## ShawnR (Apr 15, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Wiring the cottage was a great way to at least get some practical experience which was very helpful. In my current job (a combination of Transportation and Electrical engineering), it’s amazing how useful the experience of building model planes and working on the cottage has been).



I think the learning from doing anything ....is underrated. Even bad (failed, unsuccessful, hospital, divorce...;-) outcomes teach us something.

insert smiley icon here....


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## 140mower (Apr 15, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I think the learning from doing anything ....is underrated. Even bad (failed, unsuccessful, hospital, divorce...;-) outcomes teach us something.
> 
> insert smiley icon here....


Agreed, nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

Here Shawn, I'll toss ya a smiley face you can use. 

....might need a ducks for cover emoji...


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## Gearhead88 (Apr 15, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I think the learning from doing anything ....is underrated. Even bad (failed, unsuccessful, hospital, divorce...;-) outcomes teach us something.
> 
> insert smiley icon here....


Absolutely no substitute for hands on experience …… on paper it works or theoretically it should work has shown to be less than perfect on occasion


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## Chicken lights (Apr 15, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Absolutely no substitute for hands on experience …… on paper it works or theoretically it should work has shown to be less than perfect on occasion


Any tradesperson will work circles around the white hard hat guys 

Yes I’m biased but the white hard hat guys are usually useless and best avoided


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## 140mower (Apr 15, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Any tradesperson will work circles around the white hard hat guys
> 
> Yes I’m biased but the white hard hat guys are usually useless and best avoided


The newer the hi-vis and shinier the white hat, the greater the distance.....


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## Chicken lights (Apr 15, 2022)

140mower said:


> The newer the hi-vis and shinier the white hat, the greater the distance.....


Amen brother, amen 

To this day I hate buying new work boots/gear/clothes, you stick out like a sore thumb even if you a veteran. The white hard hats never clue into this and wear ridiculous outfits that we all laugh at 

even if they do make more money than us


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## Darren (Apr 15, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> even if they do make more money than us



sometimes they don't...sometimes they know it, and boy does it piss them off


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## ShawnR (Apr 15, 2022)

I am a nerd so I spend waaaaay too much time analyzing projects. But, sometimes, I just want to get a job done, So theory/best practice goes out the window.. Most of my projects are a compromise.....research enough to do a job I will be happy with, and hope the project goes according to plan. The mill power feed project is a good example. I have  been weeks on it. Waaaay too much time for such a simple project, but, even today, as I am wrapping it up, I realized I learned a ton, and did a job I think I am happy with. If I just wanted a power feed and no lesson, then, yea, bang head on wall cause it could have been done a long time ago. 

I think I have had a shift in priorities/work ethic since retiring. Before retiring, it was get as much done as possible, as quickly as possible, and don't start projects that take "too long". Now,  the attitude is, if you start a project, finish it, correctly. 

Not so sure my wife is happy with my new attitude as I am lost in shop time,....


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## Chicken lights (Apr 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> sometimes they don't...sometimes they know it, and boy does it piss them off


true 

I won’t start any wars but I’m blue collar proud 

there’s some very smart people on this forum that were/are likely white collar 

seems like, here, at least, we find some common ground


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## StevSmar (Apr 18, 2022)

140mower said:


> ....might need a ducks for cover emoji...


OMG, I didn’t realize that was a duck for cover emoji, I always thought it was a ghost and I couldn’t work out why a ghost emoji was needed…



Chicken lights said:


> Any tradesperson will work circles around the white hard hat guys


Yes, I’m an engineer, a jack of all trades and a master of none, and my hard hat is covered in high visibility tape that makes me look like a psychodelic hippie. I do acknowledge that I know in theory what to do but not in practice. However in defence of engineers, I have had occasions where trades have said “this is the way I’ve done it for 20 years” and they’ve been doing it wrong for 20 years… So we do need each other, however begrudgingly

(I’m not a total psychedelic nut job, only partial. My hard hat is covered in high visibility tape because I sometimes need to look at street lighting on the side of the road and I’d rather look ridiculous than not be seen…)(Maybe I should really get day and night hard hats…)

(Oops, sorry @Darren for derailing your thread)


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## 140mower (Apr 18, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> OMG, I didn’t realize that was a duck for cover emoji, I always thought it was a ghost and I couldn’t work out why a ghost emoji was needed…
> 
> 
> Yes, I’m an engineer, a jack of all trades and a master of none, and my hard hat is covered in high visibility tape that makes me look like a psychodelic hippie. I do acknowledge that I know in theory what to do but not in practice. However in defence of engineers, I have had occasions where trades have said “this is the way I’ve done it for 20 years” and they’ve been doing it wrong for 20 years… So we do need each other, however begrudgingly
> ...


I think it is actually an Oh my God emoji, I just used as a desperate need of something else. 
Now that Shawn has his emotions back, we need to find someone else to pick on.....


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## Susquatch (Apr 18, 2022)

140mower said:


> I think it is actually an Oh my God emoji, I just used as a desperate need of something else.
> Now that Shawn has his emotions back, we need to find someone else to pick on.....



Crazy. I always thought it was OH MY GOD IM GUNNA DIE!!! 

Or SCARED TO DEATH

Or AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! 

Not planning to change my usage.....


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## StevSmar (Apr 18, 2022)

It still looks like a ghost to me , a past tense “Oh my god I’m gonna die”…


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## Darren (Apr 18, 2022)

Well guys, I think my time with this motor generator is finished. I never posted after I picked up the staror from the motor shop because they did not wire it according to my diagram. They reconnected the star point and sealed it up, leaving it a 9 lead motor instead of the 12 that i had requested, or making the internal connections and bringing the 3 out that i needed. I think they misunderstood what I was trying to do.  Anyways, the star point was accessible , so I added the 3 leads myself. I carefully soldered and used heat shrink, then tested all my connections, i did everything right. Then i tied the windings and sealed it with glyptol varnish, and once cured I reassembled the whole unit. Not a small job. Took my time but it was several hours. Anyways, I am now getting high resistance on one of the windings...should be 1 ohm, and i'm getting 34 ohms. The 5 other windings are at 1 ohm. So i don't know what happened.  The leads that i added could not have moved, they are tied and sealed with the correct varnish. It has to be a break in the winding. I powered up a headlight bulb through that coil hoping to see smoke in the leads in a spot where i could fix it, but no dice.

I tried to save the DC drive, but i'm done. I went and saw my supplier today and he has a pile of brand new 2-3-4-5kw servos sitting there, but does not have the matching servo drives. I need to do some research. I think we can put together a deal.


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## Darren (Apr 18, 2022)

So...I just hooked up a car battery directly to the winding, effectively shorting out the battery,  hoping for smoke,  got none, but guess what...I'm back to 1 ohm. So it's definitely flaky


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## Brent H (Apr 18, 2022)

Something odd there- looks like you have to hook it up outside with a fire extinguisher handy and let it rip ?  

This:




Is a super sweet book if anyone is interested in motors and windings and repairs etc.  @Susquatch will note that it used to belong to the Chatham Public library and my lovely mom bought it for me for $1.50 when it was going for scrap after the new editions came in (se was a librarian there for several years).  The book covers lots of repairs, trouble shooting etc including rewinding motors and is a single book double volume. - excellent resource.


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## Darren (Apr 18, 2022)

It makes no sense to me other than a broken winding. The headlight was very dim on that coil, and was bright on the others. Makes sense with 34 ohms in the circuit. But after I hooked the coil directly to the battery, the high resistance went away, and as a double check, the bulb is now bright and it's back to 1 ohm. No way can I trust it, or any of the other 73 year old wiring. If i can get a new 3.5ish KW servo off my bud for a good deal, and a drive, thats the way i'm going, as of right now.  The servo has massive torque at like 1rpm all the way up to 3000rpm.  No backgear needed, so much easier swap.


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## Darren (Apr 19, 2022)

ALRIGHT, ALRIGHT! You guys talked me into giving it a shot anyways. Everything is bought, so might as well eh. I have nothing to lose.

Tested the winding again this morning, and it stayed at 1 ohm despite wiggling wires and banging the housing with a mallet. So I don't know wtf happened after i fed it the juice...but it seems to have fixed itself. Maybe it was all the cussing and praying?

Had a bit of time to kill later today after I had a cancellation in the shop so i started making up the starter box. It will house the start and run caps, the potential relay and a terminal strip. The L1/L2 hot wires from the main contactor will come into this box, then go out to the motor/generator's single phase converted three phase motor. The box is an old alarm box i found at the dump. The potential relay will disconnect the start cap when the motor is up to speed.

It will have to be remotely mounted as access is needed for fine tuning the cap values later, if it doesn't all erupt into a massive fireball first


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## Darren (Apr 20, 2022)

IT'S ALIVE!


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## ShawnR (Apr 20, 2022)

Great job @Darren ! 

Monday, 18:01 Given up
Tuesday 21:43 Convinced to give it a shot
Wed 17:19 video of working motor posted

And all that while repairing vehicles .....

I am not worthy...


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## Brent H (Apr 20, 2022)

Hey @Darren - do you guys have a thermal imaging camera at work?   You can run up your MG set and check for any hot spots. Add some load and see if anything goes hot relative to other windings?  

We are on the way to Thunder Bay right now - just out of the locks and into White Fish Bay.  Eta tomorrow afternoon.  Crap part (as I relayed to @ShawnR ) is we are still f’n Covid locked so I cannot visit. - argh!   All I can do is poke a stick through the fence again.  

Anyway I will let ya know when we tie up and the schedule.


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## Darren (Apr 20, 2022)

I do have a thermal imaging camera here. Unfortunately the windings are completely buried in the housing. I ran it for 20 minutes or so, and everything seems ok. None of the 12 leads were even warm. But next time I run it I will take some shots with the thermal image gun.

Too bad you can sneak away for a beer or 6!


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## Darren (Apr 20, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Great job @Darren !
> 
> Monday, 18:01 Given up
> Tuesday 21:43 Convinced to give it a shot
> ...


Lol yes u are.


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Darren said:


> IT'S ALIVE!



Awesome stuff there Darren. It's been quite the ride for you. Especially those two motor idiots and the two motor whisperers. Quite the contrast between those guys. 

Glad you hung in there, glad you got it going, hope you are happy, and last but not least, VERY IMPRESSED! 

Watch out for @Brent H and his sticks in the fence.......


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## Darren (Apr 20, 2022)

Next up is the single phase conversion of my new air compressor.  This one came to me without a pressure switch or mag starter. I'll be installing a new 5hp single phase motor on this one.

Looks like they had issues with the centrifugal  unloader so they scrapped it. My new pressure switch has an unloader. My buddy was contracted to replace it. It spent its life powering an air operated overhead door in some government shop. Should be a good compressor for my shop.  It's 80 gallon,  28cfm@175 psi.

 Last pic is my current compressor that i will be selling after this one is up and running.


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## Darren (Apr 20, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Awesome stuff there Darren. It's been quite the ride for you. Especially those two motor idiots and the two motor whisperers. Quite the contrast between those guys.
> 
> Glad you hung in there, glad you got it going, hope you are happy, and last but not least, VERY IMPRESSED!
> 
> Watch out for @Brent H and his sticks in the fence.......



Thanks! the reason the video is so short is because I almost started yelling and dancing. Pretty happy moment!


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## 140mower (Apr 20, 2022)

Darren said:


> Thanks! the reason the video is so short is because I almost started yelling and dancing. Pretty happy moment!


...... Errrr, ummm ..... I believe that the consensus was that you owe us some kind of a happy dance.  That must be coming out in the cinematic version.....

Happy day... Congratulations.


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## Darren (Apr 25, 2022)

Alright, compressor is up and running like a champ. Had to fabricobble in a new check valve. That was probably the original unloader problem. The unloader would unload until the pressure switch kicked in. Of course its NLA, so i put an inline valve in.

 Now I can sell the other compressor and free up some space. In order to really test the compressor, I started sanding down the 10ee. It handles the 6" DA sander easily.

I think that in every big project there comes a point where you ask yourself: "WTF were you thinking???"

I am at that point with the 10ee


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## garageguy (Jun 25, 2022)

I have a Devilbiss just like yours . It was in my auto repair shop when I bought the shop in 1980 and has been working great till now. Recently retired so it doesn't get used like it used to but you should be very happy with your compressor. I think I changed oil in mine 2 times in 40 yrs ( I know, I know) but it just keeps on like it was new.


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## Darren (Jun 25, 2022)

Compressor has been running steady every day for a two months now. Had to order some belts for it as they are pretty dry rotted. Should be a bit quieter after, but its working great.


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## Dabbler (Jun 25, 2022)

Great progress on the 10ee!  I'm, upgrading my shop air also.  pictures much later...


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## garageguy (Jun 26, 2022)

One of the big plusses I found with the devilbiss was how quiet it ran. Far superior to all the import compressors we see now.


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## Darren (Jul 13, 2022)

I apologize for the big breaks in the action. I quit my job in February, and went fulltime in my own shop doing automotive repair. I also do small excavation/bobcat services on the side for a few of my contractor buddies who i also do fleet work for. So been very busy, yet less busy at the same time. Working for yourself is the best. I'd never go back to dealership life.

Anyways,  I bought another lathe, because 3 lathes in the shop is an odd number, I clearly don't have enough irons in the fire,  and lathe number 4 was a nice little Standard Modern early series 2000 11x20.

I don't know the history on it, but it was clearly from a school. Its 0.75hp, 3 phase. It seems to be be in good shape, so likely it will get a VFD rewire and a cleaning, a few minor repairs and it will be up for sale.

Has anyone messed with the cross slide screw on this particular machine? How is the screw endplay adjusted? not the screw/nut play, that seems ok, but the cross slide screw itself has endplay. I hope to find time to look at it soon.

Pics soon


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## Darren (Jul 13, 2022)




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## Chicken lights (Jul 13, 2022)

Darren said:


> I apologize for the big breaks in the action. I quit my job in February, and went fulltime in my own shop doing automotive repair. I also do small excavation/bobcat services on the side for a few of my contractor buddies who i also do fleet work for. So been very busy, yet less busy at the same time. Working for yourself is the best. I'd never go back to dealership life.
> 
> Anyways,  I bought another lathe, because 3 lathes in the shop is an odd number, I clearly don't have enough irons in the fire,  and lathe number 4 was a nice little Standard Modern early series 2000 11x20.
> 
> ...


It’s amazing how, when “on the clock” at a 9-5 guys squawk at staying late 

Yet working for yourself long days don’t seem so long, it’s not as taxing with nobody watching over your shoulder 

Then again, I’m stranded with a broken POS trailer until tomorrow sometime

Congrats on the newest addition to the family!


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## Darren (Jul 13, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> It’s amazing how, when “on the clock” at a 9-5 guys squawk at staying late
> 
> Yet working for yourself long days don’t seem so long, it’s not as taxing with nobody watching over your shoulder
> 
> ...


At least I only have to deal with one a$$hole boss now!

It's the best. Wish I could have done it sooner!


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## Brent H (Jul 13, 2022)




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## Dabbler (Jul 13, 2022)

I went from being an employee IT consultant to working as an independent.  Working for myself was the best move possible!  Less taxes, more time off.  And greater money in the bank at the end of it all.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 13, 2022)

Darren said:


> At least I only have to deal with one a$$hole boss now!
> 
> It's the best. Wish I could have done it sooner!


My boss is kind of a jerk 

He thinks I need to put in long hours to make money 

Hopefully your boss is nicer!


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## Darren (Jul 13, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I went from being an employee IT consultant to working as an independent.  Working for myself was the best move possible!  Less taxes, more time off. ad greater money in the bank at the end of it all.


One of mentors always used to say in his raspy voice "you'll never get rich carrying a lunch pail to work"

And:

"What the hell are you doing,  you f@#king idiot!?"

I learned a lot from Jerry.


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## Brent H (Jul 14, 2022)

Check on the thrust bearing at the green arrow and the adjustment collar (red arrow).  The nut at the red arrow should allow you to correctly tension the thrust bearing  at the green arrow.


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## Darren (Jul 15, 2022)

Thanks for that Brent.  I'll check er out on Monday!


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## Darren (Jul 19, 2022)

Just took it apart. Mine doesn't have the thrust bearings or that adjuster nut. The endplay is adjusted by locking the graduated dial hub tight against the shoulder with the endplay taken up. No good. The screw has some wear, as does the nut, so I'll fix all that. The screw is 9/16" 8tpi, LH acme.  The rest of the lathe seems great, so should be a neat little project.


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## Darren (Aug 11, 2022)

A couple days ago I ordered some inserts from Cutting Tool Pickers to cut the 8tpi acme and they showed up today.  Very good service and prices. They will be my go to from now on. Shipping for 5 inserts was like 10 bucks. Decent.


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## Darren (Aug 21, 2022)

I had a bit of time to work on the crossfeed screw for the SM 1120. I ordered some 15mm ID, 28mm OD, 4mm thick thrust bearings:



Here's the part number:





I bored the original support housing to accept the thrust bearings:







On the other side of the support,  the thrust bearing goes between the gear and the support housing:









The problem here is that Standard Modern did not build in a way to positively pre load, or tighten this assembly in the axial direction.  No way to take up the end play other than the set screw for the hub for the graduated dial. Here's my solution:


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## Darren (Aug 21, 2022)

So I lost some text. The new button head screw in the end of the shaft sets the preload on the thrust bearings,  and then the original set screw locks the handle on the shaft as it did originally. It's tight and smooth now .

I parted off the worn acme threaded section,  drilled and reamed  for a 5/16 press fit when I make the new threaded section.


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## Susquatch (Aug 22, 2022)

Darren said:


> I parted off the worn acme threaded section, drilled and reamed for a 5/16 press fit when I make the new threaded section.



Seriously? You are gunna join two threaded sections to make one??? 

Holy Cow @Darren !  I'm *REALLY IMPRESSED*!


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## Darren (Aug 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Seriously? You are gunna join two threaded sections to make one???
> 
> Holy Cow @Darren !  I'm *REALLY IMPRESSED*!


No, just going to replace the entire threaded section with one that I will make today. I ordered a chunk of 1144 stressproof from McMaster. It will have a 1" long stub of 5/16 to press fit into the old shaft. I may actually change that to 3/8". The original shaft dia is 9/16". I could have made a whole new shaft, but the tapered pin holding the gear on may have been drilled and reamed in situ, making it a bit harder to align. Will make the bronze nut first, as I'll be tapping it, then the screw will be machined to fit the nut on the snug side..hopefully.  If I don't get the fit right, the new nut will be adjustable.


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## Susquatch (Aug 22, 2022)

Darren said:


> No, just going to replace the entire threaded section with one that I will make today. I ordered a chunk of 1144 stressproof from McMaster. It will have a 1" long stub of 5/16 to press fit into the old shaft. I may actually change that to 3/8". The original shaft dia is 9/16". I could have made a whole new shaft, but the tapered pin holding the gear on may have been drilled and reamed in situ, making it a bit harder to align. Will make the bronze nut first, as I'll be tapping it, then the screw will be machined to fit the nut on the snug side..hopefully.  If I don't get the fit right, the new nut will be adjustable.



OK, your back to just being Superman again, not God......

Very Cool Darren!


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## Aliva (Aug 22, 2022)

Adam Booth just posted a repair similar to what your doing. He drilled and tapped the new threaded rod and the old piece. Screwed them together and then TIG welded.


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## Darren (Aug 22, 2022)

Thats funny, I had considered doing it thats way as well. I think its overkill for a small machine like this. A heat shrink/press fit will never move, no chance of warping, can't unthread.


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## Aliva (Aug 22, 2022)

I agree it maybe a little over kill. I think he drilled and tapped in order to keep a good alignment, but what ever your happy with.


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## Darren (Aug 22, 2022)

Had a bit of time today:


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## Susquatch (Aug 22, 2022)

Darren said:


> Had a bit of time today:
> 
> View attachment 25724



Nice trick to dial in the 4 jaw! Never saw that before! Way better than using the tailstock alone.


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## Darren (Aug 22, 2022)

Not my trick. I think I learned it in machine shop class 30ish years ago


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## Susquatch (Aug 22, 2022)

Darren said:


> Not my trick. I think I learned it in machine shop class 30ish years ago



Trouble is that I never took a shop class......

So for me it's a new trick. 

I wonder what shop class would be like today now that they don't even have machines in the schools anymore.


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## Darren (Aug 22, 2022)

Got er drilled and tapped for 9/16 8tpi LH Acme. Looks like I nailed the height pretty good.  The old nut was super worn, so I had to measure the machine and do math stuff.  














As you can see, it's a bit longer. I'm going to split it partway and add an adjustment screw for the future owner.  The fit on the unworn threads is excellent,  so the cheap Chinese tap I used did better than expected.


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## DPittman (Aug 22, 2022)

Very nice.  Was tapping hard?


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

I was a bit leary of using a cheap tap, but it actually worked very well. Used plenty of oil and reversed the lathe every few turns. No issues.

I wanted to tap the nut first so i can control the fit when i make the screw.  9/16-8 Acme, especially LH, is such an oddball thread. Most charts don't list it. Screws and nuts aren't available.


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

More progress today. Seemed more appropriate to use my SM1660 , to fix the SM1120,  instead of the Emco.  Also threading is sooo much nicer on the 1660. 











Took quite a few passes since I didn't heave room for the follow rest. It worked out great after several spring passes. 

Re-reamed the original shaft at .374", rather than .3125, turned a .375 x 1" long spigot on the end of the new screw and pressed them together with Loctite sleeve retainer for lube. It was a tight fit and required some heat to seat fully.

The interface:




Somebody someday might wonder how they threaded tis shaft back then:








All assembled.  The fit between the nut and threads is way better than I expected. Zero play but threads on very smooth.  Final fitting was done with 600 grit and scotchbrite.


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 23, 2022)

Watching the video of the tapping my first thought was, Hey chuck is going wrong direction, then remembered left hand threads.


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

Those LH threads have screwed me up so much , I'm going to be turning everything backwards for days!

I used the lathe to bore the hole, so I also used it for running the tap in and out. I started the threads with a tap follower as well.


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## Susquatch (Aug 23, 2022)

Darren said:


> Somebody someday might wonder how they threaded tis shaft back then:



You have a mean streak you know! LMAO!


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## YotaBota (Aug 29, 2022)

@Darren - I see an 1120 for sale, is it yours?


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## Darren (Aug 29, 2022)

Yes it is.


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## YYCHM (Aug 29, 2022)

Darren said:


> Just in Fort Frances. Picked upView attachment 19262 my 10ee.



What became of this one?


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## Darren (Aug 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What became of this one?


big project, too busy in the summer with camp every weekend, so its on the backburner till winter. I'm in the painting stage though. All the bodywork on the main casting is done.  There's a lot more to a 10ee than you might thinks.


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## YotaBota (Aug 29, 2022)

The 1120 should make a nice early xmas present for someone.


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## Darren (Aug 29, 2022)

They are a nice machine. I'd love to keep it, but i don't have the space for 4 lathes


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## Tom O (Aug 30, 2022)

Keith Rucker just put out the first of a series on modernizing the electrical on his 10ee.


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## Darren (Aug 30, 2022)

I follow Keith on Youtube. I will be watching his two 10ee builds as they progress for sure.

Thankfully mine is a motor/generator setup, which should still work fine. I saw it work when I bought it. Earlier i converted the AC motor that spins the generator from 3 phase to single phase. So i don't really need to update much of the electrical, except the main contactor which starts the generator.

I'm familiar with the setup that he is going to be using, and the guy on PM who is always spouting off about it.  Thankfully I don't think I will have to go down that road. I can't stand reading his posts...


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## Darren (Oct 12, 2022)

I have to rebuild the boom cylinders on my excavator. I tried loosening the gland nuts with a normal hook spanner, but they wouldn't budge. So I made this wrench. 








That's the gland nut with its 4 notches.





Started with a 4.5x4.5x0.75" plate





Bored a 3.2"ish hole on the lathe, then gripped it on the bore and knocked the corners off.




I notched it for the cylinder shaft and drilled and tapped the 4 corners for 3/8 bolts to engage the notches.





Test fit was good.





Welded a handle to beat on.





After a couple hits with the 4lb mini sledge.





Now I can rebuild the cylinder. 

Always fun making tools when they work!


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## Susquatch (Oct 12, 2022)

Darren said:


> I have to rebuild the boom cylinders on my excavator. I tried loosening the gland nuts with a normal hook spanner, but they wouldn't budge. So I made this wrench.
> 
> View attachment 27058View attachment 27059
> That's the gland nut with its 4 notches.
> ...



I will remember this trick.

Although I don't recall any spanner recesses on even one of my many cylinders. I suppose if push came to shove I could machine some in place. Even shallow drilled holes should work. 

I seem to make more tools for weird disassembly jobs than anything else I do on my machines. Everything from specialized roll pin pushers, extractors, to drivers and special wrenches. Why is disassembly always such a challenge?


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## Darren (Oct 12, 2022)

it's mostly Cat and JD that use this style of gland nuts.  I have a good selection of hook spanners but they bent with a cheater pipe trying to loosen this one. My Bobcat and most other machines use face pin style. I have a few to do on my Bobcat as well and will be making the tools as well.

Local hydraulic shop story: they resealed a piston and gland nut for me recently. I brought the parts in, they matched up and supplied the seals. The total cost while i watched was about 20 bucks. I asked how much if I brought all my cylinders there. He says its a flat rate of $350......each.  So I think I can handle disassembly/reassembly even if it means i have to make the tools. The oem seal kits are about $40 - $60 per cylinder and its dead easy to do.


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## 6.5 Fan (Oct 12, 2022)

I've been expanding my daughters experience at rebuilding loader cylinders this summer. The last one was a little guy on the haybine. Over 120 bucks for the rebuild kit from dealer.


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## Darren (Oct 12, 2022)

Well, as long as you're able to do them yourself, you're still saving money and can now afford to buy more tools! 

i'm not the only guy who thinks like that...right guys?


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## 140mower (Oct 12, 2022)

Darren said:


> Well, as long as you're able to do them yourself, you're still saving money and can now afford to buy more tools!
> 
> i'm not the only guy who thinks like that...right guys?


That is exactly how I have justified my existence...... That and the wise words of Red Green " if the girls don't find ya handsome, they better find ya handy".


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