# Vise Clamps



## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

Anybody know where to get decent Clamps for a vice like this. 






The vice came with one of my used mills but I don't have anything to clamp it down with.

I'm thinking I need something like this but they are expensive for what you get.






Or, I could make something similar. But that adds up too. 

I also have a pair of nice machinists vises that I got at an auction. The photo is misleading - the one in front is half the size of the one behind it. 






I need Clamps for them too. I think  whatever works for the GS will work for the big one. But I think I will need a dowel clamp for the little one. 

Anybody know a source in Canada for Clamps like that?


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## Tom Kitta (Jul 29, 2021)

I made my own. Nice little project. Of course I made them "over size" so the ones on your picture look like toy clamps.


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## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> I made my own. Nice little project. Of course I made them "over size" so the ones on your picture look like toy clamps.



Yes, that was my first thought too. Then I thought, how long will it take? How much will the raw material cost? How long will it take to get what I need? Will I be able to make them if I don't have a clamping system that works now? (the chicken and egg deal). Hence a search for ready made parts. I found some in the USA as per the photo, but then I have customs to deal with.


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## YYCHM (Jul 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Yes, that was my first thought too. Then I thought, how long will it take? How much will the raw material cost? How long will it take to get what I need? Will I be able to make them if I don't have a clamping system that works now? (the chicken and egg deal). Hence a search for ready made parts. I found some in the USA as per the photo, but then I have customs to deal with.



You can probably clamp your vise down using nothing more than washers and your T-Nuts.  Alternatively round stock drilled through then milled with a flat leaving a flange to catch the vise slot.   Making the clamps will be dead simple.  Just a L bracket with a hole drilled through. Mill the L onto a long piece of square stock, drill N holes and then cut N brackets on the band saw.  Assuming your mill slots take 1/2" T-Nuts some 1" or 1-1/2 square stock should suffice.


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## Chip Maker (Jul 29, 2021)

I'm not sure if you checked out the Sowa website or not. https://www.sowatool.com/Product/9/330/1603


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## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> You can probably clamp your vise down using nothing more than washers and your T-Nuts.  Alternatively round stock drilled through then milled with a flat leaving a flange to catch the vise slot.   Making the clamps will be dead simple.  Just a L bracket with a hole drilled through. Mill the L onto a long piece of square stock, drill N holes and then cut N brackets on the band saw.  Assuming your mill slots take 1/2" T-Nuts some 1" or 1-1/2 square stock should suffice.



I've done the quickie washers and nuts drill before with BAD results. Not really inclined to ever do that again. 

I have two mills but no bandsaw....... I'm not happy about that, but it is what it is. Please don't beat me up.

I could always use an angle grinder with a thin blade. 

But I like your idea of how to make a quickie clamp out of round stock. I still have my mill/drill for light jobs like that.

My mill tables both have 5/8's slots. The mill/drill is 1/2.

But I get your drift. Make do with something while I make what I really need.


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## Janger (Jul 29, 2021)

A clamp kit would work too. And be useful later.

https://www.busybeetools.com/products/clamping-kit-3-8in-52-pcs.html


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## Janger (Jul 29, 2021)

Chip Maker said:


> I'm not sure if you checked out the Sowa website or not. https://www.sowatool.com/Product/9/330/1603



Make those - that’s a good idea. They are pretty pricey to buy.


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## PeterT (Jul 29, 2021)

My Bison vise is quite similar but they don't make this model anymore. The clamps came with. I could measure/CAD for you. I definitely recommend 3 per side like this in the T slots, lots of gription without excessive gronk. Sorry 1-Holer Kurt Klub members HaHa. The bolt is quite close to the rail & the underside has a small step, good features for a clamp. I looked in Sowa catalog for the similar Taiwan GS mill vise but didn't see it. They must be out there.


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## PeterT (Jul 29, 2021)

BTW, this initial square setup gets me within 0.001" runout on 5" vise jaw every single time. Good enough for blacksmith work. I still run the DTI down the jaw for sanity check but that's probably more related to shifting the vise just by alternate tightening. I often wondered about spherical washers or whatever they are called so torque friction is not translated but that's getting a bit anal about a vise. The other nice thing about this clamping arrangement is you can park & clamp the vise at at pretty much any angle which gives a lot of added functionality.


The only slight disadvantage with prismatic jaws like ours is you have to be a bit more creative with a top (jaw) mount stop. The Kurt style rectangular jaws are much easier in this regard. But I can show you mine if you want ideas


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## Janger (Jul 29, 2021)

I made these. Might give you an idea.


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## YYCHM (Jul 29, 2021)

Janger said:


> I made these. Might give you an idea.



Why the pronounced C shape John?


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## YYCHM (Jul 29, 2021)

@PeterT What's your mill table cover made of?






It's time I made something like that.


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## Janger (Jul 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Why the pronounced C shape John?



kurt style vise with a big lip. I’ve since then gone to a pallet style hold down plate.


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## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

Janger said:


> A clamp kit would work too. And be useful later.
> 
> https://www.busybeetools.com/products/clamping-kit-3-8in-52-pcs.html



I have a clamp kit like that. I couldn't see a good way to make it work for my application. The 5/8 kit parts are all too big to fit in the vice groove. But as per @YYCHM I will cobble something up that will work temporarily while I make something better. Even some 1/4" plate on a stack of washers would work for now.


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## Susquatch (Jul 29, 2021)

PeterT said:


> My Bison vise is quite similar but they don't make this model anymore. The clamps came with. I could measure/CAD for you. I definitely recommend 3 per side like this in the T slots, lots of gription without excessive gronk. Sorry 1-Holer Kurt Klub members HaHa. The bolt is quite close to the rail & the underside has a small step, good features for a clamp. I looked in Sowa catalog for the similar Taiwan GS mill vise but didn't see it. They must be out there.



Yes, these are similar to what I have in my mind's eye. Please don't go to any trouble to draw them up. I'm sure I can figure it out.

I do have one question though, how wide are they? They have to straddle the T-slot and still be stable so width is important. Yours work so it's a good place to start.


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## Janger (Jul 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I have a clamp kit like that. I couldn't see a good way to make it work for my application. The 5/8 kit parts are all too big to fit in the vice groove. But as per @YYCHM I will cobble something up that will work temporarily while I make something better. Even some 1/4" plate on a stack of washers would work for now.


I guess mill down the 5/8 parts to fit the groove.


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## PeterT (Jul 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> @PeterT What's your mill table cover made of?
> It's time I made something like that.



The finest grade of shipping box cardboard! LoL. Once they get ratty I will probably make some out of 1/8 or 1/4 masonite (hardboard).


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## PeterT (Jul 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I do have one question though, how wide are they? They have to straddle the T-slot and still be stable so width is important. Yours work so it's a good place to start.



Dang just came in from the shop. I can measure tomorrow but guessing 30mm wide since they are metric. So 1.25 or even wider like 1.5" just to straddle over the T-slot with a bit more span. The hex SHCS are counterbored which is kind of nice. Protruding heads might get in the way of moveable jaw sliding over but pretty simple stuff however you want to adapt.

I've been meaning to come up with something similar for my rotary table, but it has has clamp pockets in non-T-slot aligning orientations different on one side than the other, so will need a different trick. For now I use standard fixture clamps but its a lot of brickabrack on the table.


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Dang just came in from the shop. I can measure tomorrow but guessing 30mm wide since they are metric. So 1.25 or even wider like 1.5" just to straddle over the T-slot with a bit more span. The hex SHCS are counterbored which is kind of nice. Protruding heads might get in the way of moveable jaw sliding over but pretty simple stuff however you want to adapt.
> 
> I've been meaning to come up with something similar for my rotary table, but it has has clamp pockets in non-T-slot aligning orientations different on one side than the other, so will need a different trick. For now I use standard fixture clamps but its a lot of brickabrack on the table.



Thanks @PeterT.  Looks like a plan including the recessed heads.

Are the screws half inch to fit regular T nuts?

Ps - I'm so jealous of that beautiful table top.


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

Janger said:


> I guess mill down the 5/8 parts to fit the groove.



I suppose  That would certainly work. 

Just goes against my grain to modify a universal tool like that. Then again, the clamp pieces are sold separately and are quite inexpensive.

It would certainly get me going quickly and then I could make proper Clamps later.


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> BTW........ The only slight disadvantage with prismatic jaws like ours is you have to be a bit more creative with a top (jaw) mount stop. The Kurt style rectangular jaws are much easier in this regard. But I can show you mine if you want ideas



Looks beautiful. 

I am really sorry though on two counts...... Frankly, I feel kinda dumb. 

I have no idea what "prismatic Jaws" means nor whether that is good or bad. 

And I don't know what a top jaw mount stop is either let alone what that is for. 

I have so much to learn.


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Looks beautiful.
> 
> I am really sorry though on two counts...... Frankly, I feel kinda dumb.
> 
> ...



OK, cancel the question on the stop. I found several references to them on line. They are used to facilitate indexing parts for repeat operations on identical parts. I can see that being useful. Perhaps even on my vice Clamps! By all means, let me know how you did it! 

Still no idea what prismatic Jaws are though.......


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## Chip Maker (Jul 30, 2021)

The jaws on your vise are spring loaded and when the vise is tightened they pull down so the work piece is pulled down as well keeping it tight against parallels for example.


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## PeterT (Jul 30, 2021)

Prismatic = just a fancy word for angled back vs the Kurt style is rectangular.


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## PeterT (Jul 30, 2021)

link to my vise stop
https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/overly-complicated-vise-stop.1373/

because this style assumes rectangular jaws





an easier solution is buy one of the rod style that bolt in the T slot. There are lots of Asian knockoffs that are not bad


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

Chip Maker said:


> The jaws on your vise are spring loaded and when the vise is tightened they pull down so the work piece is pulled down as well keeping it tight against parallels for example.



I see said the blind man!

I saw the springs when I took it apart. But it had been torqued right down with no spring action left. So I didn't realize that they are supposed to be a bit loose!

Another piece of knowledge.

I should probably try to get new Jaws for the GS.

The top edge is deformed. See photo.






What isn't obvious in the photo is the deformation is kitty corner. Front right edge, and rear left edge.

At first I thought something had been snagged so hard that it bent the edges. But on closer inspection, it turns out that the rest of the edge has been machined off.

I'll prolly machine everything flat, but it may be that new Jaws are in order......


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## YYCHM (Jul 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> The finest grade of shipping box cardboard! LoL. Once they get ratty I will probably make some out of 1/8 or 1/4 masonite (hardboard).








Done..... I glued a wood rib that fit the T-Slot down the center to hold them in place.  The question is.... If I paint them will they warp?  Plastic panel would be a better choice, I guess.


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## Tom O (Jul 30, 2021)

Not with hot chips I would think.


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## YYCHM (Jul 30, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Not with hot chips I would think.



That's probably a really good point


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Done..... I glued a wood rib that fit the T-Slot down the center to hold them in place.  The question is.... If I paint them will they warp?



Great idea to add the rib.

I would think you could seal the cardboard (both sides) with a light fine spray a little at a time until it won't soak up paint anymore.

Perhaps two ribs (front & back) would stiffen the cardboard enough to take paint too. 

In my opinion though, there is nothing wrong with the naked look of that exotic custom cardboard.....

Ps - your vise is humunganosso!!!


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## Susquatch (Jul 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> If I paint them will they warp?



Ribs front and back instead of middle would gaurd against warping. 

What about wall paper instead of paint? LOL!


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## YYCHM (Jul 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Ps - your vise is humunganosso!!!



Ya.... I think it's a little over kill as well

Have you seen this....






Another over kill purchase LOL.....


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## PeterT (Jul 30, 2021)

It doesn't take long for oil & chips & tools to grot up the cardboard. It was never really intended to be a long term solution. It started out as a template to test & eventually cut MDF or hardboard one day but I'm just lazy (and I have a lot of cardboard!). My clamps require notches which is not as clean as just a single lug. I also like to have the table end pockets exposed although my newest habit is using small plastic trays to keep the job drills & taps & whatever all in one spot, so maybe just cover the whole table. Not quite sure what you meant by ribs but if you mean like a wood key glued on the underside that engaged the T-slot, that would help the wood from warping & also keep it positioned. I've also seen some nice covers made from of rubbery sheet, like 1/4" neoprene or similar. That might be nice too although I suspect sharp swarf might stick in there.


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## YYCHM (Jul 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> It doesn't take long for oil & chips & tools to grot up the cardboard. It was never really intended to be a long term solution. It started out as a template to test & eventually cut MDF or hardboard one day but I'm just lazy (and I have a lot of cardboard!). My clamps require notches which is not as clean as just a single lug. I also like to have the table end pockets exposed although my newest habit is using small plastic trays to keep the job drills & taps & whatever all in one spot, so maybe just cover the whole table. Not quite sure what you meant by ribs but if you mean like a wood key glued on the underside that engaged the T-slot, that would help the wood from warping & also keep it positioned. I've also seen some nice covers made from of rubbery sheet, like 1/4" neoprene or similar. That might be nice too although I suspect sharp swarf might stick in there.



LOL.... I'll start a new thread..... Back to Vise Clamps.


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## Susquatch (Jul 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ya.... I think it's a little over kill as well
> 
> Have you seen this....
> 
> ...



I LOVE IT!!!!   I could have used one of those a million times. In fact I could use that right now making a motor adapter for my Hartford. That adapter may be the death of me....


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## Mcgyver (Jul 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Anybody know where to get decent Clamps for a vice like this.
> ?



the old question, which came first, the mill vise or mill vise clamps.  you could use strap clamps while you mill some clamps.  

That looks like Garadi.....if it is, wanna trade for a Kurt?    Nice vise


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## Susquatch (Jul 31, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> the old question, which came first, the mill vise or mill vise clamps.  you could use strap clamps while you mill some clamps.
> 
> That looks like Garadi.....if it is, wanna trade for a Kurt?    Nice vise



It is. The real deal, not a knock off. Took me ages to figure that out. If I posted it earlier you could have saved me a crapload of work. 

Any chance you know which model? I'd either like to get new Jaws for it or mill the existing ones flat. 

It has two defects. There is a big milling notch in the side of the ram. How somebody did that without noticing is beyond me.

One side of the top flange of the Jaws has also been milled off - See photo of Jaws earlier in this thread. 

Last but not least, I assume there is an adjustment procedure for the jaw springs. Do you (or anyone else) have suggestions?


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## PeterT (Jul 31, 2021)

They are spelled Gerardi. You might find some nuggets on their website.
http://www.gerardispa.com/products/workholding/precision-modular-vises/

Travers is one of the CDN distributers but you might want to be sitting down for the prices.
https://www.traverscanada.com/6-milling-vise/p/61-421-260/


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## Susquatch (Jul 31, 2021)

I've found and visited both web sites. Neither one shows my model. The base on mine is 13.5" long, the Jaws are 5" Wide, and the screw is M18-4 (which makes it a type 2 - whatever that means). I've not seen any Jaws that look like mine with a top lip. I suppose the lip could be the result of a sleeping operator and a mill gone wild. But what is left of it looks too perfect to be an accident.......

Anyway, originally I wanted clamps and jaws for it. Right now I'll settle for jaws and even that might die if they cost too much.


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## RobinHood (Jul 31, 2021)

Here is a website with some prices for Gerardi vises / components (hope you are sitting down):

https://kar.ca/catalogsearch/result/index/?limit=45&q=Gerardi


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## Susquatch (Aug 1, 2021)

Ya, VERY pricey!

As a bonus though, I see GS sells a stop for their vice. If everything in the photo works the way I think it does, there is a threaded hole in the side of the front jaw assembly that the system attaches to.  Mine has both those holes. 

Hopefully @PeterT has the threaded hole too. If not, it might be easy for him to make one...... The stop shouldn't be hard to make either.

I got my GS clamped down temporarily using my clamp kit. If the GS Clamps are too expensive, I'm planning to get some 1x2 bar to make proper hold-down clamps for my GS.

The clamps and a neutral shift location for the back gear selector will be my first projects.

Very cool.


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## PeterT (Aug 1, 2021)

Yes I have a threaded hole on either the side of my fixed jaw block & did make a stop arm mounted to that. Can't seem to find my pics for some reason.
Also these Asian T-slot styles have gotten relatively inexpensive. The body parts are aluminum with steel pins & axles, but they grip OK for the intended purpose. They are pretty quick to set up & maybe a bit more useful like when work sticks out further from the vise jaw,


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## Susquatch (Aug 2, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Yes I have a threaded hole on either the side of my fixed jaw block & did make a stop arm mounted to that. Can't seem to find my pics for some reason.
> Also these Asian T-slot styles have gotten relatively inexpensive. The body parts are aluminum with steel pins & axles, but they grip OK for the intended purpose. They are pretty quick to set up & maybe a bit more useful like when work sticks out further from the vise jaw,



Speaking as the voice of total inexperience, I don't really see why aluminium shouldn't work just fine. It's not a clamp - just a location stop.

I agree, it looks pretty darn useful.


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## RobinHood (Aug 2, 2021)

You want a vise stop to repeat. Ideally with a deviation of <0.001”. So that is why a simple tool like this needs to be very beefy.
It’s like indicator stands - the thicker the bars and heavier the joints, the more accurate and repeatable they are.
I use a makeshift one using a BP 1/2” strap clamp rod through a 1.25“ heavy wall square tube ( as a way to get the height I need) with a 1.5” by 0.750” hold down bar on top. It is very solid. Not as universal as what Peter posted a picture of, but this thing does not move once attached to the table.


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## PeterT (Aug 2, 2021)

Very good points. Whenever possible, orient the stop in its most rigid, stable orientation. Choke up on the rod extension etc. Make sure the part & he rod end are clean, burr free. Avoid slapping the part to the stop. I think some of the systems out there are good in that they can orient the rod in various 3D positions, but the downside is more joints & clamps & degrees of freedom, the less stable it is. A thou is actually quite easy to deviate with just minor push pressure. There is a reason why some of those T-slot systems look stout. Especially on the big big vises like Kurt style - the rod my be 4-6" from the table. The jaw vise stops are better that way if they can be used.


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## Susquatch (Aug 2, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> You want a vise stop to repeat. Ideally with a deviation of <0.001”. So that is why a simple tool like this needs to be very beefy.





PeterT said:


> A thou is actually quite easy to deviate with just minor push pressure. There is a reason why some of those T-slot systems look stout.



I understand what you guys are saying. You are both right and I accept what you say totally.

My earlier comments were probably rooted in my lack of experience and knowledge which limit me to make very imprecise parts for the next while. Heck, I didn't even know what a vice stop was till a few posts ago!

So any and all excuses aside, I recognize that it doesn't hurt to start with stuff that is better than I need... Hopefully, I'll be needing it before I know it!


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## Chip Maker (Aug 2, 2021)

PeterT said:


> They are spelled Gerardi. You might find some nuggets on their website.
> http://www.gerardispa.com/products/workholding/precision-modular-vises/
> 
> Travers is one of the CDN distributers but you might want to be sitting down for the prices.
> https://www.traverscanada.com/6-milling-vise/p/61-421-260/




Actually that's a Sowa made vise hence GS. They bought Gerrradi's patent I believe, Here's a link you should find your model on. The vise clamp link I sent earlier were Sowa's clamps for their vises.

https://www.sowatool.com/Product/9/330/1561


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## Susquatch (Aug 2, 2021)

Chip Maker said:


> Actually that's a Sowa made vise hence GS. They bought Gerrradi's patent I believe, Here's a link you should find your model on. The vise clamp link I sent earlier were Sowa's clamps for their vises.
> 
> https://www.sowatool.com/Product/9/330/1561



Thank you @Chip Maker, I think you are right. Mine appears to be the #2 model in their list of "Plain Base Modular Vises". That's the right length, jaw width, jaw depth, etc. Only that silly lip at the top of my jaw edges is different - and I'm not really sure that it really is different or got machined that way by a previous owner. 

It seems funny to retain the GS Logo after buying patent rights though.....

Going from this webpage, it looks like I might be able to get replacement jaws for $80 each, and a whole new moveable module with a new jaw for 
$231 - (thats the one with the chunk out of it).


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## Chip Maker (Aug 2, 2021)

The GS stands for Gerrardi Sowa. Original Gerrardi's only had a G.


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## PeterT (Aug 2, 2021)

I've always wondered what GS was about because its a pretty broad range of tooling. 
https://www.sowatool.com/Search?query=GS
Not that it matters, just curious. I have a few mill related GS tools & they are excellent quality. Apparently made in Asia but to high QC standards.


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## Susquatch (Aug 2, 2021)

Chip Maker said:


> The GS stands for Gerrardi Sowa. Original Gerrardi's only had a G.



The models they sell in Italy have the GS.  I had wondered what the S stood for until I saw the company name. GERARDI SPA.

We may never know the truth.

Btw, the hold-down Clamps on the Soya web site are a big question mark for me. It looks like they don't include the T-Nut or the screw. That's not the end of the world but it also looks like they are designed to use metric screws and nuts that are not included. 

The Soya Clamps are decent but I found some inexpensive Clamps at Glacern with both screws and nuts. They are a bit too big but their Rep tells me that that they can be easily machined to fit. 

I may buy the Glacerns to get me going, but I'm also pretty set in my mind to make my own Clamps with recessed screw heads and regular T-Nut.


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## Susquatch (Aug 12, 2021)

Any of you guys know the correct procedure to setup those prismatic jaws? I'm guessing they shouldn't be screwed down, just brought close against the spring tension so they actually do pull the work down when tightened. But how much? 

In the absence of better advice, I'm thinking I'll tighten them till they touch then back off the screws a half turn.


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## PeterT (Aug 12, 2021)

I checked my Bison vise manual. I didn't think it had any springs & it doesn't. So the Gerrardi are different in their own way apparently.
What might be helpful is this video. Set up a DTI & dial the way he does on vise jaws. You should be able to quantify the adjustment by comparing. Or failing that at least you'll know how your vise stacks up.


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## RobinHood (Aug 12, 2021)

Here are links for the Gerardi vise. Great info.

http://www.gerardispa.com/products/workholding/precision-modular-vises/standard

And the manual (click on the “STD“ Download icon to get the manual).

http://www.gerardispa.com/documents/instruction-books


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Here are links for the Gerardi vise. Great info.
> 
> http://www.gerardispa.com/products/workholding/precision-modular-vises/standard
> 
> ...



You NAILED it @RobinHood!!

I'm a computer Geek, I looked for it extensively, and I missed it. Just goes to show that one mind is clearly inferior to two.

The instructions were pretty much as I guessed they would be. I had guessed backing off a half turn, they specify a quarter.

The manual is a bit difficult to read, but there are lots of tips and suggestions in it for using the vice.

Very Happy!!!

THANK YOU SIR !!!

Gunna order new jaws.


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I checked my Bison vise manual. I didn't think it had any springs & it doesn't. So the Gerrardi are different in their own way apparently.
> What might be helpful is this video. Set up a DTI & dial the way he does on vise jaws. You should be able to quantify the adjustment by comparing. Or failing that at least you'll know how your vise stacks up.



Good stuff @PeterT!  @RobinHood found the manual for it and that answered my question.

But I am a milling newbie so I appreciated the additional info in your video. I'm a sponge right now. I'm soaking up every piece of knowledge I can.

Thank you!


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## RobinHood (Aug 13, 2021)

No worries at all, you are welcome.


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## PeterT (Aug 13, 2021)

I didn't look at the manuals, but when you think you have it sorted out, I'm kind of intrigued of your conclusion of why the springs. Obviously its to allow some tiny initial float, but which surfaces & why. Is it more about clamping or more about compensating for jaw swaps etc.


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I didn't look at the manuals, but when you think you have it sorted out, I'm kind of intrigued of your conclusion of why the springs. Obviously its to allow some tiny initial float, but which surfaces & why. Is it more about clamping or more about compensating for jaw swaps etc.



I'm not absolutely certain I understand your question. But I have looked at the design every which way of Sunday. I believe I know why the springs are there.

Their primary purpose is to push the Jaws away from the angled surfaces when the vise is released. Otherwise they would stay put and there would be no ability to pull the load down into the vise as it closes.

Their secondary purpose is to provide a smooth loaded closing movement to avoid having the Jaws jump around as they are closed.

I don't think they have any role in jaw swaps. In fact GS sells quick change jaws that have no springs at all.

The springs push UP on the Jaws. Therefore, they stay engaged on the sloped vertical jaw holder surface and float away from the jaw base. That way, the Jaws pull the part down tightly into the vise as the vise is tightened.

I have noticed that using parallels behind work on my lathe chuck results in a good seat, but the parallels are easily removed after the Jaws are tightened. The same thing happens on my mill/drill vise. I am anxious to see what happens on the GS....... 

Does that answer your question?


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

I just adjusted my GS jaws per the manual and tried to clamp a block of steel on top of parallels. There is no way in H*** that you are moving those parallels after the Jaws are tightened.

Just for S***s and Giggles, I tried the same block with the same parallels on my 3 other vises (A big Grizzly and two high quality machinists vises). The parallels on all three were easily removed after clamping.

The GS system definitely works. While it is difficult to move the blocks against the springs, it is possible and the movement is just barely detectable. 

I ordered new jaws for the GS ($100 each!!!) earlier this morning. I'll see if I can grind the old ones or get them ground by someone else so I can use them as spares - or perhaps make them my working jaws and use the new ones when I need the precision.

I'll also have to see if I can make some triangular jaws for it for working on round parts. 

Btw, the Jaws on the GS have threaded holes all over the place for attaching fixtures, stops, and whatnot.


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## PeterT (Aug 13, 2021)

Ya kinda. I don have a clear picture but that's more a limitation on my part. I suspect there is more to the prismatic system from design standpoint like where the clamp & reaction loads are applied, what deflects, what slides slightly & how forces are translated for optimal clamping so that our job is easy - screw this thing until that thing is tight LoL. Its the only system I've seen that has springs. Not that its bad, its probably good, maybe even design protected. It just caught my curiosity is all.


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## PeterT (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm hoping to out live my Bison because they don't make that vise anymore. That's why the price was so good back when I got it, blowout reduction. I haven't checked yet but I'd be surprised if other similar jaws like Sowa match the jaw mount geometry. I guess I could get them made but doubt that would be cheap... tool steel, machining, hardening, grinding, high degree of precision. Its in nice shape & I hope to keep it that way. But seeing all those other kinds of jaws makes me envious. Unfortunately vises are spendy but they are also important. If you cant properly hold work with reliable accuracy, makes it harder to hit dimensions. This style was also used on surface grinders. But what I like is the shorter vertical thickness.  Kurt style relies on the massive CI bed for rigidity. Nothing wrong with that but it chews up valuable headroom even on BP style mills.


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I'm hoping to out live my Bison because they don't make that vise anymore. That's why the price was so good back when I got it, blowout reduction. I haven't checked yet but I'd be surprised if other similar jaws like Sowa match the jaw mount geometry. I guess I could get them made but doubt that would be cheap... tool steel, machining, hardening, grinding, high degree of precision. Its in nice shape & I hope to keep it that way. But seeing all those other kinds of jaws makes me envious. Unfortunately vises are spendy but they are also important. If you cant properly hold work with reliable accuracy, makes it harder to hit dimensions. This style was also used on surface grinders. But what I like is the shorter vertical thickness.  Kurt style relies on the massive CI bed for rigidity. Nothing wrong with that but it chews up valuable headroom even on BP style mills.



I hear you. Coming in as a milling newbie, I'm sure I don't appreciate all the nuances of what you are saying, but I sure as heck get the drift and the main points. 

Calling them prismatic seems to depend on who is talking. GS and Soya both sells jaws for holding round stock that they call prismatic. Those jaws actually do look like multi-faceted prisms. So it makes sense.

Yes, others on here said that the GS ramped jaws are patented. I saw that on their website too. But it's probably an old patent that has already expired years ago.

The collet chuck that I got for my  lathe is a 5c Bison. I LOVE it. Anytime I have checked it, the runout is always less than a thou. I hardly ever check it anymore when I use it. Bison makes good, stuff.


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## RobinHood (Aug 13, 2021)

Having glanced at the manual only superficially, I believe they talk about two modes of operation: one, conventional, and two, pull-down mode.

In the conventional way, the springs are fully compressed and the jaws seat against the bottom - in other words, it will not slide down the angled face when tightened - just like on any other fixed jaw vise.

In pull-down mode, the jaws “float up” a little above their bottom stops (due to spring pressure). As the part is clamped, they slide down along their angled faces, in turn pulling down the part hard onto parallels or the vise bed.

I can see that the jaws could marr the surface finish in pull-down mode - especially if there is a substantial vertical component of movement while the jaws bite into the part under pressure.


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## John Conroy (Aug 18, 2021)

Ca Lem built a very nice Gerardi clone. Amazing work, fantastic looking vise.


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## Tom O (Aug 18, 2021)

Apparently Calem might be done making videos he’s looking to move maybe That’s too bad I like his vids.


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## Susquatch (Aug 18, 2021)

Got my new jaws yesterday. They are not a perfect fit replacement. I had to loosen the fixed jaw block and slide it sideways a bit. I didnt think that should be possible, but it did work. It makes me wonder how the vise holds its right angle.

Anyway, they are nice jaws - and ought to be for the money. And 1/4 turn on the jaw screws does seem to be a good compromise between marring and pull down. Overall, I'm happy.


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## Susquatch (Aug 18, 2021)

The other thing I did today was to finish making my vise clamps. Although the mill has a definite drift problem, it is still very rigid compared to my old mill/drill, and the new Clamps work great!






I considered recessing the screw heads, but then they become a chip trap and I thought the bigger hole might weaken the clamp being that I put the screw as close to the vise as practical.

In any event, the top of the screws are below the top of the base so they don't interfere with parallels.

I may polish and blue them when I get some free time. 

This thread was a very worthwhile discussion for me and I really appreciate all the help and advice that members have given me. 

Again, I'm happy.


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## RobinHood (Aug 18, 2021)

Nicely done!

That is one good quality vise. As good as if not better than any Kurt (dare I say that? I guess I just did…).


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## PeterT (Aug 18, 2021)

That's pretty similar to what made. I'll have to snag a picture next time. I also have a few graduated thickness spacers donuts I can put between the vise body to move the arm out
(red) sometimes an extending parallel will conflict with the arm even though the part is inside the jaws
(orange) its also useful to have slimmed down rods (or in your case threaded rod) when working on thinner parts, but that might be more a function of my projects
I actually prefer my little vise jaw clamp, much quicker & generally more reliable but involves a bit of rethink to work around the non-rectangular jaw like a Kurt


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## Susquatch (Aug 18, 2021)

PeterT said:


> That's pretty similar to what made. I'll have to snag a picture next time. I also have a few graduated thickness spacers donuts I can put between the vise body to move the arm out
> (red) sometimes an extending parallel will conflict with the arm even though the part is inside the jaws
> (orange) its also useful to have slimmed down rods (or in your case threaded rod) when working on thinner parts, but that might be more a function of my projects
> I actually prefer my little vise jaw clamp, much quicker & generally more reliable but involves a bit of rethink to work around the non-rectangular jaw like a Kurt



My post was focussed on the vise clamps. But you noticed the stop.

I didn't bother with graduated donuts. I just used one big fender washer fat enough to space the stop bar out far enough to clear the Jaws totally. The washer is also big enough to keep the stop bar totally rigid. Once I tighten the machine screw, that thing don't move!!!

I thought about the size of the stop screw for a bit and then decided it wasn't important for my work. The bar slides on a groove so I can always get the screw where I want it even with parallels.

If I ever need a smaller stop pin, I'll bore out a shorter screw and glue in a hardened pin.


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