# 7X12 swivel cutting bandsaw



## CalgaryPT (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm off researching a new 7x12 swivel cutting bandsaw for the home shop. I outgrew the old 4x6 on a unsolicited job.  I'd love to give my old Craftex 4x6 away for a song ....does this site have a "Tools for Sale/Wanted" forum or restrictions on these type of postings? I just need a good story now for the new saw so I can explain to my wife why a big truck  with a lift gate is drop-shipping a 400 lbs box to our garage (yet again). Perhaps I should get a gift certificate to the spa that day?.......hummmmmm.


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## Jwest7788 (Aug 29, 2016)

CalgaryPT said:


> I'm off researching a new 7x12 swivel cutting bandsaw for the home shop. I outgrew the old 4x6 on a unsolicited job.  I'd love to give my old Craftex 4x6 away for a song ....does this site have a "Tools for Sale/Wanted" forum or restrictions on these type of postings? I just need a good story now for the new saw so I can explain to my wife why a big truck  with a lift gate is drop-shipping a 400 lbs box to our garage (yet again). Perhaps I should get a gift certificate to the spa that day?.......hummmmmm.




Theres actually a classifieds section you can hit up here for your bandsaw:
http://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/forums/classifieds.20/
Make sure you're over the minimum post limit (3) before you post a link to an external site though!

Yeah, the "Spa cover" one of my favorites, that or strategic shipping on girls night, lol.


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## Janger (Aug 29, 2016)

CalgaryPT Which 7x12 saw are you eyeing?


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## CalgaryPT (Aug 30, 2016)

Janger said:


> CalgaryPT Which 7x12 saw are you eyeing?


Hi Janger. Thanks for your question. I'm a bit of a research junkie/geek, so you'll probably regret asking the question 

I have just started, but so far I've looked at the Craftex (BusyBee house brand), Princess Auto (various manufacturers), Magnum (KMS house brand), Harbor Freight, King Industrial, Grizzly, Baileigh and Ellis models.  The USA discount options (Harbor Freight and Grizzly) mostly drop off when you factor in quality vs. shipping and import duties (Free Trade was a wet dream). As you may know, when you look at performance reviews Harbor Freight crashes and burns. They're hit-and-miss "passable" even if you buy the extended warranty AND live next door to an outlet—which we don't in Canada_. _Grizzly is far better (about the same quality-wise as Busy Bee who they had a "non-compete" clause with for many years until recently)—but the warranties, shipping and parts/service for Canucks can be scary, or so much of a pain you just suck it up and write off the the purchase as a financial lesson, vowing to never buy from them again (welcome to the club).

Magnum 7x12's are the KMS house brand (like Craftex for BusyBee).  Princess Auto's 7x12 (SKU: 3460015) is similar to BusyBee, but above Harbor Freight models in quality from what I have heard, experienced through a few cuts myself,  and read online. One advantage of the PA model is that PA excels at customer service/returns and seems to have no issue if you don't like the product (at least in my experience).  I think the PA model is somewhere between Harbor Freight and Grizzly. However, for me, 3/4 HP is what I call "Kraft Dinner Passable": it's OK....but would be GREAT with some extra cheesie dust (HP).

On to the "Made in the USA" models. First, this isn't always 100% true.  As with so many claims, you need to evaluate the "Manufactured in" vs "Assembled in" nonsense, which most companies hide in semantics and legalese. Bottom line is if the extra dollars you pay go for higher labour/union costs in North America vs. better quality parts, then you're just paying extra money to SAY your band saw is made in North America. Assembly likely isn't your issue. It's probably not any better quality, assuming it works out of the gate and has a good warranty. Ellis and Baileigh models are WAY too expensive for a retired guy like me—even though I've previously imported both a Baileigh 48" Mag Brake and an Ellis Belt Grinder a few years ago through Ecco Machinery in BC. I just have a small residential garage hobby/shop in NW Calgary. But with the dollar the way it is, and the darn import and shipping costs on the US stuff........I'm dying here. Also, just try importing industrial machinery into Canada w/o a business name—you get treated like an al-Qaeda operative by Canada Customs. 

I looked at the 1500 Series bandsaws from Ellis. But when I called a dealer in Manitoba that handles the import duties and CSA Approvals (req'd on all USA machines) they said they had issues with it and pushed me towards the 1600 Series. Sadly, that's a $5500+ CDN price tag (w/o shipping) through Empire Tools in Winnipeg.  Also, the Ellis machines are "dry" saws--no coolant systems, which I am skeptical of...but I'm trying to remain open-minded and not think they are just trying to hose me on consumables (do I sound negative?). Every industrial saw I have seen at metal shops uses coolant, so....this tells me something....even for my small hobby shop environment. Of note here is that Baileigh isn't all USA built as perceived. Ellis is better in terms of North American-built from what I can tell, but you still pay for those union-impacted labor costs (not a judgement, just an observation).

Having said all this, I'm leaning towards the King KC-712DS (*D*ual *S*wivel) for a few reasons. First, I want a swivel model. In a small garage where you can't pivot your stock on the saw vice this is a deal-breaker. If the saw only cuts 90 degrees horizontal and you need to pivot the vice and stock to cut a 45 degree mitre, that means you need a lot of room to swing a 12 foot piece of tubing (I didn't do the trigonometry on it, but I just know stuff in your shop needs to get moved to make it happen). I also like that it is a 1 HP model (unlike the Princess Auto "Heavy Duty" 3/4 HP 110V model (which I doubt is _actually_ _a real 3/4_ HP)). The King Industrial is pre-wired for 220V which I also like, as I have an unused 220V single phase plug in my garage. The Magnum, while gear-driven (a big advantage), cannot be re-wired to 220V (a big disadvantage) at least for me.

Best of all King Industrial is out of Quebec (despite their silly hockey team, Celine Dion, several other things Albertans hate). Yes, the machines are Asian-made like others, but they do have all the parts and service. KMS told me the Magnum models (which are pretty good all around, sold to schools etc., so don't get me wrong) lack a bit when it comes to parts. KMS carries the most common parts for the Magnum house brand—such as Acme nut replacements, etc., according to the Calgary store Manager (Vince). But King has been around since 1910 (in various forms), and has ALL parts. I actually called King from Calgary to Quebec today to ask about this model and any problems they had with it. I really wish I spoke French. The guy I chatted to was great and SOOOOO polite, but struggled with redneck Alberta English. I liked that their call-routing covered Parts, Service and Complaints, as well as an option to chat to a real person still (who does that anymore?).

I'm in the grey zone of gear drive vs. belt operation for a 3/4 inch blade. Higher end 1 inch saw saws use a gear box. I could buy the Magnum (KMS) 7x12 with a gear box (which I am still considering), but I wonder if a low end gear drive sounds like it has more potential for pain than a simple replaceable pulley/belt and motor drive (as on the King KC-712DS) that I can source parts for easily? If I were running a commercial metal shop I'd think differently and go for a gear driven 1 inch model. But if I had that kind of money I'd be hanging out on investment forums and not geeking out about metal fabrication as a hobby anyways.

That's my 2 cents worth (0.78 USD). Hope some of it was helpful. My first preference is the King KC-712DS at about $2700 (plus lift gate service). Second preference is the Magnum MAG-UE712SG at $1999 (plus lift gate service). There are some higher end machines that I have excluded, but I'm already in divorce territory at this price range when my wife finds out  

Cheers.

P.S. I'll be letting my old 4x6 go for charity prices in the Classified section of this forum in  a few days...just to help out the newbies.


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## Janger (Aug 30, 2016)

Hey great research! Love it! I have the 5x9 swivel CX116 from busy bee. I find the swivel is just not as handy as I expected and that feature sure brings up the price on the larger saws. The King KC-712DS at $2700 is more than double their fixed model. I understand about the swing problem though. I have a oddball solution though that might help. I put my makita abrasion saw on a lazy susan base. so now I spin the saw instead of the material - the vise is still a pain to adjust though and you have to get out a wrench and fool around - accuracy is vague. But ... it works. Maybe worth thinking about. Make a BIG lazy susan for the whole saw and upgrade the vise to make angle cuts convenient. :> 

You could also go to the maa auction where they are selling some hydmech bandsaws.... fill up the garage though with those big tools. 

I find I blow through blades on my bandsaw pretty easily. They split at the weld. I've split maybe 5 in the 18 months I've owned it. I do relieve the pressure when not in use and try not to over tension while cutting but it seems to be tricky. Sufficient tension to prevent the blade from jamming in the material also seems to cause splits. The hydraulic feed may be uneven. Anybody have any comments?


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## CalgaryPT (Aug 30, 2016)

Humm.....I've never split through a blade yet....maybe I am just lucky. I try to follow the old rule of thumb to use a blade TPI that allows at least two - three teeth always in contact with the stock. I know when I'm cutting 0.25 wall and forget to change the blade if I slide in some 16 gauge it makes a heck of a racket and I think I'm _about_ to split a blade. But so far it hasn't happened. I may have just jinxed myself though.

Thanks for the Lazy Susan idea...it gave me something to think about for my tubing notcher!


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## PeterT (Aug 30, 2016)

I have an older Taiwan model, kind of odd-ball size  (7x11?) 3-speed gearbox. Bought it from House of Tools mid/late 90's when they existed. Somewhat similar to that King but without the nice swivel vise. The only other consideration is mine can swivel upright & bolt on a mini table. I really like that for plate work, cutting out shapes etc. In fact it stays that way out of laziness. I'll just push through a 1" diameter slug to length, but any more & I'll remove the table & return to chop-off mode. I have one beef & its the vise end is too far away from the blade (like maybe 2") in 90-deg cut mode. That's a common complaint but I have seen lots of remedies like capturing a smaller vise in the jaws or extending the vise with bolt-on extensions.

Lost of bandsaw mod ideas here, particularly the smaller ones.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/show-us-your-hf-4x6-bandsaw-modifications.87/


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## Dabbler (Aug 30, 2016)

Ok...  Such a good analysis...  Let me add just a detail or 2.  I agree with everything CalgaryPT says (great mention of Ellis BTW).  Where I went with it, however was that I would be operating my shop out in the lane due to divorce, so - I waited for an Emerson  6X10 ish  (Canadian made, welded steel construction, much like a very primitive Ellis) in good condition for $500 with some extra blades.

You can wait for deals out there, but if you're only cutting a few times per year, scoop up CalgaryPT's saw.  Inexpensive saws can, with a little work (fixing bearings etc) be very good for light duty work.

P.S.  I almost bought the Busy Bee swivel 5X7 saw CX116 with the reversible vice.  My needs are pretty small, and it looked well built (surprise!).


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## kylemp (Aug 31, 2016)

CalgaryPT said:


> I'm off researching a new 7x12 swivel cutting bandsaw for the home shop. I outgrew the old 4x6 on a unsolicited job.  I'd love to give my old Craftex 4x6 away for a song ....does this site have a "Tools for Sale/Wanted" forum or restrictions on these type of postings? I just need a good story now for the new saw so I can explain to my wife why a big truck  with a lift gate is drop-shipping a 400 lbs box to our garage (yet again). Perhaps I should get a gift certificate to the spa that day?.......hummmmmm.


What do you want for your saw? It's funny you should say this, I need a bandsaw because I started modifying mine to swivel.. It's almost there but I needed more machine travel for some things and I'm just getting there now, so I'm looking for a cheap quick stop gap until that's done.


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## CalgaryPT (Aug 31, 2016)

kylemp said:


> What do you want for your saw? It's funny you should say this, I need a bandsaw because I started modifying mine to swivel.. It's almost there but I needed more machine travel for some things and I'm just getting there now, so I'm looking for a cheap quick stop gap until that's done.


I only want 40 bucks....I'll post the ad and some pics in the classified in an hour or so. It works great.


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## Jwest7788 (Aug 31, 2016)

@kylemp If you pickup that bandsaw, I'll likely be open to buying off you when you're done with it, I'm in need of a stop gap too, and as much as I love my powered hacksaw, it's not really a delicate tool at all, haha.


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## CalgaryPT (Aug 31, 2016)

Jwest7788 said:


> @kylemp If you pickup that bandsaw, I'll likely be open to buying off you when you're done with it, I'm in need of a stop gap too, and as much as I love my powered hacksaw, it's not really a delicate tool at all, haha.


 Believe it or not, someone from the forum saw the thread and is picking it up at 2 today. It didn't even make it into the Classified section.


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## Jwest7788 (Aug 31, 2016)

Gotta love the forum for that!


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## Dabbler (Aug 31, 2016)

Hey Jwest, you have a powered hacksaw also?  I thought I was the only one!  Cool!


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## Jwest7788 (Aug 31, 2016)

Dabbler said:


> Hey Jwest, you have a powered hacksaw also?  I thought I was the only one!  Cool!


Haha yeah, hand-me-down from my grandfather.

see: 



 (9:05 min mark)

It's been voted "most likely tool to detach body parts" in my shop, lol.


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## kylemp (Aug 31, 2016)

I bought a power hacksaw I think I will likely sell too, if anyone is interested


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## CalgaryPT (Aug 31, 2016)

This is too funny -- I remember those old power hacksaws. We had one in our Junior High School decades ago. Of course we also had a shop built pulse jet engine the kids were allow to take home and play with.....apparently safety wasn't a big priority.


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## Dabbler (Aug 31, 2016)

OMG a very old Busy Bee hacksaw!  I had heard of those but never 'saw' one before!


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 1, 2016)

This is a bit late but today's auction has two S20 band saws for sale. They are bigger then what you are looking for and I have no place to store one but they are true industrial machines. Hard to outgrow a 2000lbs band saw in a home shop.


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## kylemp (Sep 1, 2016)

Which auction?


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 1, 2016)

michener allen auctioneering


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## Tom O (Sep 1, 2016)

I have the 7 x 12 craftex and have never had any complaints I also have a power hacksaw.


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## CalgaryPT (Sep 1, 2016)

Tom O said:


> I have the 7 x 12 craftex and have never had any complaints I also have a power hacksaw.


I've heard good things about the 7x12 Craftex too. Hey, despite all the bad comments about the Asia stuff, my old 4x6 Craftex that I just sold yesterday ran like a top for ten years...and it had originally fallen off the shipping truck so I got it at a discount when I bought it. There are so many great links and tips for maintaining these machines, I find if I follow a good maintenance schedule, change bearings as needed, use good blades and coolant, keep it clean, they work fine for me....

I just think those old power hacksaws are fun to watch....it's like someone tried to duplicate the exact function of the human arm. Very cool.....


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 1, 2016)

I have a King 4x6. Main complaint is rather "loose" base. I guess at some point I make my own. Chinese stuff is frequently acceptable if accuracy is not of a big concern or strength or keeping a cutting edge etc. I.e. drill press vice made in China is a good deal. Precision milling vice made in China so far never actually had "precision" in it. Most drill bits made in China have issues through some carbide tile drills from China are excellent. Not like all tools made in US/ EU are great - some are making a mistake to try to compete on price vs. China.


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## CalgaryPT (Sep 1, 2016)

Tom Kitta said:


> I have a King 4x6. Main complaint is rather "loose" base. I guess at some point I make my own. Chinese stuff is frequently acceptable if accuracy is not of a big concern or strength or keeping a cutting edge etc. I.e. drill press vice made in China is a good deal. Precision milling vice made in China so far never actually had "precision" in it. Most drill bits made in China have issues through some carbide tile drills from China are excellent. Not like all tools made in US/ EU are great - some are making a mistake to try to compete on price vs. China.


Agreed. All good points.


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## kylemp (Sep 2, 2016)

Jwest7788 said:


> Haha yeah, hand-me-down from my grandfather.
> 
> see:
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure the saw is supposed to lift between passes, mine doesn't because it's seals are done but im almost 100% sure it's supposed to. Does yours? Does anyone else's?


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## Tom O (Sep 2, 2016)

mine raises fine.


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## Dabbler (Sep 2, 2016)

mine does not raise between passes;  there is no mechanism to provide that. A lot better if it did...


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## Jwest7788 (Sep 4, 2016)

kylemp said:


> I'm pretty sure the saw is supposed to lift between passes, mine doesn't because it's seals are done but im almost 100% sure it's supposed to. Does yours? Does anyone else's?



Nope, no mechanism to lift. It's literally just a wheel with a push arm attached.

I heard it's better to have the lift for saw life, but not required apparently. 


Sent from my iPhone.


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## kylemp (Sep 4, 2016)

It would be pretty easy to throw a cam on to lift between strokes.. i just think of hacksawing by hand and if you put a little downforce while pulling back every stroke how much if would shorten blade life.


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## CalgaryPT (Sep 29, 2016)

Hi Everyone….since many of you endured all my anal research on 7x12’s, I thought I’d update members with my purchase decision and initial impressions in a review of my thoughts (to date). For the record, this is a personal review only…I have received no compensation for any comments in this review. There is an overall recommendation at end of post.

I’ll try to stay away from anything that could have been gleaned from the spec sheets, pictures, videos, salesperson pitches, or tech manuals downloadable online. As well, I’ll stay away from common and to-be-expected features such as vise extensions and stop-blocks.

Post-Research Note: I did get a chance to test drive a used Ellis 1600. It was great, and I drooled over it a bit. But the guy who owned it said without coolant it went through blades quickly and he eventually resorted to a manual coolant bottle and/or slower speeds than he preferred to run. Hummm…..he wanted $4500 for it, which was too rich for my bank account anyways.

I decided to go with the King Industrial 7x12 Dual Swivel. It arrived last week as a special order through KMS. KMS Calgary (Jay) was actually great at the special order itself, and worked with the King rep in Quebec to answer a bunch of questions before I purchased. Tragically the order arrived ahead of the two week timeframe they quoted me, but it just ended up sitting in their commercial picking area in Calgary instead of the residential area before it was discovered. This happened to me before on some JD Squared tubing dies, so no big deal—just some KMS disorganization I had hoped they resolved years ago. Nonetheless, their hotshot guy (Coyote Courier) had the order to me the next day at 0830 hrs, so I was happy. (Great courier BTW…professional and friendly).

The saw was well packaged and properly secured to the pallet with 3” lag bolts…none of that “oh dear…has this been damaged due to poor packaging feeling?” Very little effort was involved in its assembly, and first impressions were all good.

I am still dialing it in as far as auto-shut off (always a pain), level, squareness, etc. But here are my DISLIKES and LIKES after a week or so of operation.

DISLIKES

1)  The axles are slightly shorter than they should be - the wheels on the base seem very solid (UHMWPE I think), but the axle lengths are about 1/4” overall (0.125"/wheel) shy if you want to install the washers (as indicated in the parts manual) before the cotter pins that go through the end of the shafts. I just installed the cotter pins for now, but they might cut through the solid plastic wheels with repeated use. Looking at older manuals and comparing to the wheels I got with my saw,  I think King Industrial may have re-engineering the wheels recently, but forgot to account for the older washer thickness (just my theory).

_Solution:_ I will either machine down the wheel centres or find some thiner washers. Probably the latter.
_Update (2016 Oct 1):_ OK, a couple of space/thrust washers solved the problem for a few cents. 

2) I would have preferred one set of pivoting wheels (saw has four fixed axle wheels) as it would be easier to move around my small shop.  Technically, I can’t complain as I knew about this ahead of time—but my old 4x6 was so much lighter I could either shimmy it into place, or pivot it easily. It’s a tougher task with a 300+ lbs machine, and I hadn’t thought about this despite all my research. Probably not a issue for a school or small industrial shop with more real estate than me, but that’s life I guess.

_Solution:_ This will be a fun modification and I will add two pivoting wheels latter.

3) The protective sheet metal drive wheel door on the back of the saw doesn’t fit snuggly enough. This caused an initial problem and a broken blade on day two…see below.*

_Solution:_ I will either tap an additional guard screw into the saw casing, or remove the guard and bend it enough to make it flush with the saw. Alternatively, I could leave it and do nothing, but this has already resulted in one damaged blade (see below).

4) Coolant tank discharge hose should have been better attached to drain flange—not just loosely snugged on. This wasn’t a huge problem, just an “oh-oh” moment as I could envision a big wet mess given how much my saw will be moved around—eventually the hose would slip off the flange.

_Solution:_ one 79 cent hose clamp.

5) Despite knowing the overall height of the saw prior to ordering, I am always disappointed when I need to bend over to access machines. OK, I’m 6’1”, but that isn’t _super-tall_. Just a few more inches of saw height would mean comfort (like the Ellis 1600). Understandably, without the footprint of a Hydmech, there could be centre of gravity issues here if the saw was much higher, so I get it. On a related note, coolant pools in the corner opposite the drain screen in the chip tray due to the slope of my garage. This isn’t a design flaw, although a tapered chip try could have solved the problem.

_Solution:_ I can address this minor height issue together with the fixed wheel and coolant drain concern (see IMPROVEMENTS bellow) and solve three small pet peeves at once.

6) The Auto Shut-Off Switch seems oddly placed underneath the motor. This is more of an observation than a dislike as I’ve seen many ways of doing this.  But the plastic rocker switch on this King Industrial model seems under-robust at first glance. I suppose this will prove out over time. At least the sensitivity adjustment appears adequate (maybe too much so). Every bandsaw auto-shut off switch I have ever seen seems finicky until you get this figured out...so I know I will fine-tune it eventually. I actually like the Ellis approach the best (see Kevin Caron) Maybe the King Industrial design is better, but the switch is also in the direct path of coolant drip (when the saw is tipped upright). Having said this, King Industrial obviously recognized this and sealed the switch with proper CSA weather-proof fittings/grommets, O-rings, a rubber drip cover, etc., as well as drain canals that channel coolant to the tank. _But still_….

7) The machining on the blade wheel closest to the motor seems...well…“off a tad." I could be wrong here—it’s likely cast after all, _then machined_. But when you watch it through the protective sheet metal guard it’s clear that some of the relief holes in the wheels are not uniform. This makes the wheel _appear_ to wobble or drift as it rotates (it doesn’t actually). Granted, this is not a big issue given that the wheel turns at such a slow speed. But it just annoys me to such an extent that at some point I will probably put a dial indicator on it. In all fairness, I think I read on one of the Asian forums that it is common to cast these, and then die grind relief hole(s) to balance them at low speed (<1000 RPM)—kind of the opposite of adding lead weights to car rims when balancing.  The technique wouldn't work for high speed RPMs obviously, but most of you guys on this forum know more about this than me. Either way, nothing _sounds_ or _feels_ unbalanced, and the diameter on the wheels are within a few hundredths, so it likely isn’t an issue. I’m just trying to cut tubing here after all.

LIKES

1) The Wheels on the Base are Large (4” in fact) - much more so than my old 4x6. Thus, they go over metal chips, Cheetos, beer caps, etc., on my shop floor without grinding to a halt.

2) A MAN Sized Drip Tray For A Change - I WAY love this. All chips and off-cuts fall into it, instead of on the floor or in the small catch tray I had to build for my old 4x6 that looked like a feeding trough for the Tin Man. Also, the drip tray itself on this new saw is at least 16 (and maybe even 14) gauge, so it's nicely solid to the touch. The sides are angled at about 35 degrees, so any flying chips, residual coolant spray, or off-cuts that catch air fall back into place. After a week of operation the area underneath the saw has no chip fallout or coolant stains—unlike my old saw. This is nice because when I need to move the saw in or out of place, there is no mess to clean up.

3) Some Thought Went into Coolant Management - they may have even tested it properly, believe it or not! By this I mean—_aside from what other manufacturers have figured out_—King Industrial built channels and troughs to account for when the saw is lifted up and excess coolant needs to drained from around the blade wheels in the saw case and back to the drip tray. I notice this was either absent or poorly executed in the Princess Auto and other models. Sure, some manufacturers condidered coolant management _when cutting, _but not everyone thought of it when the saw was turned off or the saw was lifted up, turned off, and all that leftover coolant in the case and around the blade wheels needed to go somewhere. (The Busy Bee model put some thought into this too, and I still like this model, especially the gear driven version.) I observed a few minor drips around the case furthest from the motor that fortunately/accidentally found their way into the drip tray. With the addition of a small piece of vinyl stripping, the re-direction of any accidental drips back to the tray could be assured. But overall, coolant management was engineered better than I expected.

Having said all this, if a perfectly clean chip and coolant free work environment is your goal, you’re on the wrong forum anyways.

4) Chip Brush is Brass. This is REALLY petty, but an industrial machine rep once told me any company that sells bandsaws with steel chip brushes either doesn't know what they are doing, or just wants to sell you more consumables. I don't know if that’s true, or if it seems as minor as I think it could be be, but it seems to me that your chip brush should be a softer material than your blade, unless you WANT to dull your blades prematurely.

5) Hydraulic Down feed is SMOOOOOTH…. The King Industrial down-feed is great. Access to hydraulic controls (Ball Value On/Off, as well as Needle Valve Bleeder) is fine. I have not yet tested for hydraulic leakage in the cylinder, but I suppose I could at some point the future. I don’t know why anyone would care, and I know I wouldn’t, even though I’ve seen spreadsheets of people who measure this stuff and have webcams watching it in real time (seriously). Personally, “leakage" has never been as big of an issue as it seems to be to other "hydraulic down feed enthusiasts." I do not care if the blade drops to base from top-centre overnight. Nor do I understand why people measure this.

6) Blade Guards are Solid…not cheap 22 gauge sheet metal that needs to be re-formed every time you change a blade and reattach the guard.

7) "Tru-Lock" Vise System - Nice. _Really_ nice in fact. I never appreciated this until I tried it, and to be honest, it sounded a tad gimmicky on the King Industrial spec sheet. But the vise, after initial “snugging” allows for repetitive gripping of similar sized pieces with one solid down-push on a lever. This is a real time saver, and a great compromise for those of us that long for a hydraulic auto-closing vise on a Hydmech or higher-end industrial dream machines. You can insert similar sized stock and cut over and over quickly with one lever push on the vise. This is a really nice feature I hadn’t anticipated. It was a shock, especially for someone moving from a small 4x6 machine to more of a light commercial/industrial tool. A great feature…my favourite surprize overall.

8) Documentation - I’m biased here as I worked for many years as a technical writer. The King Industrial documentation includes both a reasonable user manual as well as a detailed parts manual. This is especially relevant as I have previously mentioned that King Industrial stocks all of its parts in its Quebec warehouse. As minor as it may seem, their documentation has only a few spelling and grammatical errors (far fewer than other manuals). The King Industrial manual is understandable compared to many other Asian manuals that baffle me with their twisted English, odd illustrations, and bizarre syntax that tells me to “insert screw for under complete-ness with danger” (whatever the heck that means?). Bottom line is that, for documentation junkies such as myself, fewer technical writing errors make us think they care a little more about QA/QC in the manufacturing process as well. As most technical documentation is written post-production, I’m likely wrong, but stupidly optimistic.

8) The Dual Swivel Feature is Great - it operates smoothly, and the spring loaded ratchet mechanism locks in angles (aside from the positive stops). It feels robust enough for a saw of this caliber. Best of all, the three positive stops for 90, 45, and 90 degrees are all adjustable and easy to bypass by simply pivoting the stop itself (all solid cast pieces). I could write a entire column on swivel abilities alone. But the ability to swivel the saw—as opposed to the vise—is largely why I chose the King Industrial model in the first place. I love this feature and can’t recommend it enough for a small shop with limited workspace. Also, I have owned several swivel saws before (such as the Craftex 4x6), and recall thinking that being able to swivel just one direction was adequate (because you could always just flip the stock for the mirror angle.) However….. swivelling in both (dual) directions would be a dream. Consider a power mitre saw such as a Dewalt, Bosch, Makita, etc., for doing trim. Then imagine it can only swivel/pivot one direction...and you get the picture. Oh, yeah…now imagine it takes ten times as long because instead of spruce or MDF your material is metal, and you see the advantage of a swivelling saw instead of a pivoting vise in a small shop.

9) The Saw Feels Solid - I love that very few parts feel cheap or poorly built (as a whole). This is different for everyone, but for me it means, heavy, dense, little slop, rigid, and that cuts are repeatable. Yes, there are a few parts that I would have preferred to have tighter tolerances, or a more expensive feel/look (such as the On/Off magnetic switch), or the sheet metal wheel guards, but all in all, all I’m happy with the “solid factor.”

10) Blade Bearing Adjustment - this is easier here than some other saws as the lateral movement is made through a screwhead—once the bolts holding the bearings are backed off. In some saws you simply loosen the bearing bolts and move the entire bearings, but the Kind Industrial model features a screw that allows for finer play, which is much easier.

11) Power - the motor on this is 220V / 6 Amp—which I like. It seems to have more kick to it than the 110V/11 Amp models (PA and Harbor Freight) which I have measured on a Kill-a-Watt Meter at less that than 1000 Watts (????). Bottom line is that on even a devoted 110V circuit in a residential garage (required for a car heater by Canadian Electrical Code), you may still dim lights. For something this big I like 220V to be safe.

12) Big Surprise, the paint job is top quality! Seriously.

SOME THINGS I AM NOT SURE ABOUT

1) This saw is belt, not gear driven, and I notice that the V belt seems smaller than I recall on my old 4x6 (in terms of thickness). Perhaps belts are of better quality now (?)…or maybe this is not a issue. It just seemed odd for a 220V 6 Amp motor that the belt was as thin as it was.

2) I prefer a gear box with visual access to the worm drive so I can watch the oil level without opening it up…in other words, a sight bubble. But maybe this isn’t a necessity. There is an access hole to check gear oil level at least. Either way it is an easy mod to add a bubble if needed. I had written on my old 4x6 crankcase “Worm Gear Drive - Check Often,” but in ten years I never checked it and it ran like a clock the whole time.

IMPROVEMENTS I INTEND TO MAKE

1) Coolant Management- I think all coolant systems should have a ceramic or neodymium (rare earth) magnet in the reservoir or somewhere in the plumbing. It catches small particles and prolongs pump life. I’ll be spending $2.00 at Princess Auto or Lee Valley to address this concern on Saturday.

2) Adjustable Drainage - King Industrial should pay me massive residuals for this idea, but I’ve yet to see a shop or garage that is perfectly level. For this reason I would make the drip tray adjustable using some type of stair gauge device so as to allow the coolant to flow back (properly) into the tank instead of pooling with off cuts in the tray like some kind of metalic Love Canal. I intend to combine this improvement with the pivoting wheel mod to ensure that coolant drains back to the tank, instead of sitting in the tray.

* Day Two Mishap (see pic) - After playing with the saw for a day I tried to dial in the Auto-Stop setting. At some point the machine failed to fully sever a 1/4” sliver of 3/16” wall 2x2 tubing. I stupidly re-started the saw after freeing the blade, BUT without removing the off-cut which the saw promptly kicked out. Because the protective sheet metal pulley door was not a snug fit, the off-cut flew back into the wheel housing through the gap (see tragic pic below) and jammed between the blade wheel and the housing. In addition to a horrific sound it stopped the blade from rotating, bent back a tooth severely, and displaced the blade from the wheel seat grove significantly. Even after reseating everything, the damage to the blade was so severe that the blade jumped and jammed on every cut until it stalled. Once I figured out the problem, I installed a new blade and all was fine.

_Solution_: Close the gap on the cover. Duh….

FINAL OBSERVATION

I give the King Industrial 7x12 Dual Swivel an 8 out of 10, with a caveat that this could change, positive or negative, after  6 months or so. My experience has been that if something epic is going to fail it will do so in the first six months. I know an Ellis or a Hydmech would beat this saw hands down in terms of quality and the minor QA/QC issues I have identified. But I guess my point is for the higher end "residential shop user,” such as myself, who is willing to accept small fit-up issues, I am very happy and would buy it again. This saw was about as large as I could get without going full on industrial, and was as high as I was willing to pay for a home shop.


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## PeterT (Sep 30, 2016)

Great write-up. Couple questions:
- so this model is not a 'stand up' where the cutting head swivels up & you can attach a table platen like a conventional XY band saw? ie. its chop-off mode only?
- what's the distance between edge of vice jaw & blade? (that's a kind of pita on my import when holding short stock)


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## Janger (Sep 30, 2016)

CalgaryPT said:


> Hi Everyone….since many of you endured all my anal research on 7x12’s, I thought I’d update members with my purchase decision and initial impressions in a review of my thoughts (to date). For the record, this is a personal review only…I have received no compensation for any comments in this review. There is an overall recommendation at end of post.
> 
> I’ll try to stay away from anyth
> FINAL OBSERVATION
> ...



Really nice review. Thanks.

Did you learn anything about auto-feeders for this scale of saw? What about auto cutting? On my saw one annoyance is once I get the feed rate set then the next piece to cut is a pain to get the saw to the right height to clear the part but not be so high that it takes forever to come down to the part height. If that makes any sense...  Is the king any better at that?


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## Dabbler (Sep 30, 2016)

Hey John, the Emmerson saw has a fix for needing to mess with the downfeed valve to position the blade...  It could make a great machining project if you want one.

On the down feed cylinder, there is the normal down feed rate needle valve, but an additional bypass that lets the fluid flow due to greater downward pressure...
- So to position the blade for the next piece, you raise the blade, then force the blade down until it just about touches the work without touching the down feed rate.

I'm rebuilding mine right now, but in a month or so, you could come down and see how it works!


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 1, 2016)

PeterT said:


> Great write-up. Couple questions:
> - so this model is not a 'stand up' where the cutting head swivels up & you can attach a table platen like a conventional XY band saw? ie. its chop-off mode only?
> - what's the distance between edge of vice jaw & blade? (that's a kind of pita on my import when holding short stock)


No, this model will not go vertical--you can't attach a table to it. I know some guys like this feature, but as I am lucky enough to have CNC plasma and power metal shears/nibblers this feature wasn't something I shopped for.

The vise jaw closest to motor is 1/2"  inch to blade; the shorter jaw (closest to coolant dripper) is 1 3/8" to blade. My pic is a bit misleading....as I don't use technology very well.


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 1, 2016)

Janger said:


> Really nice review. Thanks.
> 
> Did you learn anything about auto-feeders for this scale of saw? What about auto cutting? On my saw one annoyance is once I get the feed rate set then the next piece to cut is a pain to get the saw to the right height to clear the part but not be so high that it takes forever to come down to the part height. If that makes any sense...  Is the king any better at that?


I didn't research auto feeders or cutting, sorry. To be honest I have never seen either on 7x12's. I'm not sure if they exist until you get to 9x16's, but I'm probably wrong as I (sadly) don't get enough industrial equipment exposure just having a small residential shop.  Having said this, I've always thought this would be a fun DIY project using a linear actuator, an Arduino/Raspberry Pi and some of the newer breakout sensors or Grove add-ons from groups like Sparkfun or Calgary's Solorbotics. I don't think the code would be that difficult, and is probably available online already, but maybe the actuator approach would be too slow???? It would certain be bragging rights though 

Now that I think about it, I do remember someone comparing the same problem you are having to his toaster: every time one piece toasts perfectly, the next piece is never right.


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## PeterT (Oct 1, 2016)

Yours is slightly better than mine in terms of distance of vise edge to blade. At least it looks like your front jaw is closer. Here is what I'm talking about. When I have shorter stock, say something machined off the lathe, I need to rig up some backing jaws otherwise there isn't enough left to grip. If saw is sitting in stand-up mode, I'll just push it through with the T-bar, but if small-ish diameter. I wouldn't push a log through that way. My other trick is to hold the stun in another smaller dedicated vise & grip that in the saw vise.


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## PeterT (Oct 1, 2016)

vs. my saw jaws


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 1, 2016)

PeterT said:


> vs. my saw jaws


Yup...I get it. Thanks for the pic. I love bandsaws for the small kerf and ability to make repetitive cuts...But it ain't no table saw if we're trying to shave stock to size, right?  It turns us all into jerry-riggers and potential Heath & Safety violators (and maybe YouTube embarrassments). I once saw a guy mod a small vise with T-nut to fit into his existing band saw vise, where the T-nut went into the viewing lane for the Acme thread (if that makes sense). Very clever. Worked like a charm, except that he had to machine down the underside of the cast vise to make it flat enough to hold the T-nut.

I love it when guys think up these things themselves to solve problems...it's part of the hobby and I like learning from everyone else.


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## Janger (Oct 1, 2016)

Dabbler said:


> ..  It could make a great machining project if you want one
> 
> I'm rebuilding mine right now, but in a month or so, you could come down and see how it works!



I'd love to see that Dabbler. Very good stuff!


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## Janger (Oct 1, 2016)

PeterT said:


> vs. my saw jaws


So I took a page off some body on the Internet and made an out feed shelf on the drop side of the blade. It's about 1/8" away from the blade and I can clamp small parts to it. Sometimes it works better than trying to fool around with extending the jaws with extra stock. 

The vise inside the vise is a good idea though - I'll have to try it.


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 1, 2016)

Janger said:


> So I took a page off some body on the Internet and made an out feed shelf on the drop side of the blade. It's about 1/8" away from the blade and I can clamp small parts to it. Sometimes it works better than trying to fool around with extending the jaws with extra stock.
> 
> The vise inside the vise is a good idea though - I'll have to try it.



Thanks for the pic. Yet another great idea. It approaches the vise slippage issue from another angle: support the stock from underneath. Almost too simple. I love it. Thanks so much.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 11, 2016)

Dabbler said:


> Hey John, the Emmerson saw has a fix for needing to mess with the downfeed valve to position the blade...  It could make a great machining project if you want one.
> 
> On the down feed cylinder, there is the normal down feed rate needle valve, but an additional bypass that lets the fluid flow due to greater downward pressure...
> - So to position the blade for the next piece, you raise the blade, then force the blade down until it just about touches the work without touching the down feed rate.
> ...


 Any update on your rebuild of the downfeed Dabbler? I love my new King 7x12, but see the value in your rebuild suggestion. I wonder if such a cylinder is available commercially??


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## Dabbler (Nov 12, 2016)

I don't know, but to put a pressure based bypass is just plumbing, eh?  

Since I last posted, this mill became available, and I stopped working on the Emmerson.  Please bear with me, I'm swamped getting my shop ready to have John over to look at my old mill, and getting the new mill going...


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 12, 2016)

Dabbler said:


> I don't know, but to put a pressure based bypass is just plumbing, eh?
> 
> Since I last posted, this mill became available, and I stopped working on the Emmerson.  Please bear with me, I'm swamped getting my shop ready to have John over to look at my old mill, and getting the new mill going...


No worries. Thanks.


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## Janger (Nov 12, 2016)

CalgaryPT said:


> No worries. Thanks.


Since we were last discussing this I started gently pushing down on the arm to make it move faster. Leave the valve alone since I have it set. Is that a bad idea?


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## PeterT (Nov 12, 2016)

If you are talking about the hydraulic cylinder/valve loop, hard to say without knowing the internals. But I'm guessing it may not be great for the seals to have the valve set for slow drop & then applying extra external pressure to make it move faster.  Its probably best to open the valve to the right drop speed & let it go naturally as its (ideally) sized pressure wise around the head weight. My valve has these numbers around the perimeter. I don't think they mean anything other than say 1=slower 5=faster feed. After some experimentation you might find you can just go to that number;  1=steel, 5=aluminum etc. Usually when I put stock in I extend the saw a bit more & eyeball its drop (because I also don't think its very linear). But in all honesty I'm lazy. Its set to cut steel without too much drama & I also just cut aluminum on same setting. If time was money & lots of parts to do, I'd have to smarten up with SFPM & speed etc.

I've come to the conclusion I've really underutilized my saw over the years. Especially in stand-up mode. The other day I had some parts that required notches & profiles on the milling machine. I made sure I had sufficient number of accurate surfaces to set up in mill, outlined the profile on the part & band sawed the excess to within 0.050". Way faster than hogging all that excess with end mills. And now you have some bits & pieces to utilize instead of swarf


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## Dabbler (Nov 12, 2016)

My friend Bert has been pushing down on *his* Chinese 7X12 Horiz bandsaw these 30 years, and never needed a replacement cylinder... That said, I agree with Peter that you can get used to the downfeed rates, and make do.  Once the mill is up and running Janger, why not come over and look at the bandsaw and the bypass I was referring to?

Bert always taught me to bandsaw everything possible before going to the mill - his rationale is that bandsaw blades are a *lot* cheaper than cutters.


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## kylemp (Nov 12, 2016)

In my experience I would say push as hard as you like on your saws. The ideal situation is the weight of the saw is enough to dampen the kick from the teeth cutting but until you hit HEAVY saws the spring is one of the largest issues causing broken teeth, etc.
As none (probably) of us have saws that are true pneumatic or hydraulic powered, the next best thing is to put extra weight on the saw to stop kick back and adjust the downfeed accordingly, personally I wouldn't worry about the seals in the cylinders (were really not talking aboput a lot of force).
This should do two thing, one give enough force to stop the kick and two allow for a better cut quality and speed. Again until you hit true industrial saws you don't get the function of hydraulics or pneumatics and the cylinders you find on non 15,000 dollar saws have check valves, so they are more than willing to let the saw go back up.
The only real concern is putting too much weight and the saw beginning to twist or bend, which will be reflected in the cut.. in all honesty, if your stupid enough to put enough weight to permanently damage your saw be bending, you should be playing with 3d printers, plexiglass and hot glue and not machine tools.


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