# Electric panel questions.



## Perry (Sep 21, 2021)

I didn't want to derail the "Garage heater install" thread so I've started a new one. 

Some of you have probably been thru this and may have answers or info to share.  

My house is an older house from around 1940.   Small panel with the meter inside the house.  The insurance company uses this excuse to justify their high policy premiums.

I've built a new 24' x 24' garage and it will be needing power.  So the plan was to install a new panel in the garage and feed a sub panel  to power the house.  (The insurance company will need another excuse.)

The estimator was here today. Just thinking over what we talked about and I think I remember him saying the feeder from the garage to the house panel will be aluminum.
Reading on the web it says it can be either copper or aluminum.   Pros?  Cons?

Also he suggested a 100 amp service in the garage.   If you go larger you need to contact Enmax to confirm that the transformer in your area has enough capacity to go with a larger service. Enmax has confirmed I am good for 200 amps?    What do I need?    I could see a possible electrical vehicle charger down the line.   I'm into machining as a hobby  and presently work on smaller items but you all know how that goes. (Maybe I'll find a $500 milling machine locally that needs 9'X9'X10' of space. lol )

The panel I have now for the house has six screw in fuses.  (90 amp?   6 fuses X15 amp?  I'm guessing here.)  The dryer and stove are gas . Gas furnace.   No other big loads. 

Thoughts on panel size?


Just to add to the story , seeing I was digging a trench for the electrical I decided that I might as well run the gas line at the same time.   When my friend did his electrical it was a 4" wide trench 20" deep.   I was expecting the same.     My trench needs to be 18" wide 20" down.   The gas and electrical need 12" of seperation.    

Haven't got the actual cost of this yet, but I'm sure it won't be cheap.


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## Chip Maker (Sep 21, 2021)

200 amp panel with 100 amp sub would be my suggestion.


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## Brent H (Sep 22, 2021)

@Perry :  Go 200 amp on the shop and then feed a 125 amp panel in the house.  

Aluminum is fine and will be cheaper than the copper.  When you install the aluminum conductors you coat the ends with a paste to prevent Oxidation and be sure to torque the clamp screws to the required spec.  This is typically listed in the panel box/  The panel box should also have a sticker in it that says it is CU/AL compatible.

The whole Aluminum issue was in the 70's 80's where people were just installing regular receptacles in their homes with AL wiring.  the AL would expand and contract with the heat during use and work the screws loose resulting in arcing and fires.  To solve this they required a pigtail of copper conductor be added to the end of the AL wiring using a special crimp/wire nut.  Now you can just use the AL as a feeder to panels and meter bases.  My main 200 amp service from the street to the meter is AL.

If you run gas to your shop you can install a simple radiant floor heating system if you want to go crazy  

You also need to put mechanical protection above the run lines and caution tape.  The gas line also requires a copper trace wire.


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## kylemp (Sep 22, 2021)

I'd agree with everyone else. In my shop it's exactly that, 200a in, 100 goes to the house. That leaves enough to have 6x 50a outlets and enough power to be milling or plasma cutting and have the compressor running. It's not a huge increase in cost to do it now, but doing it later would be a substantial cost. 
As for the AL wire, I'm quite sure it isn't an issue and I believe Brent to be correct in what he says, but I'm not a sparky so having a professional opinion is valuable. Given that we all know about the concerns of aluminum wire, you can bet that new builds wouldn't be allowed it if the potential for fire was still there.. It's really the old houses that are the concern. For feed lines as far as I'm aware it's just fine.
Another thing that I've seen in industrial that I plan on doing when I build is running oversized conduit with fish lines inside so you can modify things later, you could do the same with your supply to the house in the event you needed to change at a later date but it's not likely.


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## cuslog (Sep 22, 2021)

I had mine done last year (Calgary). 1975 vintage house W/100 amp service. My first thought was to have Enmax bring a new 200 amp service (under ground)to the garage. While possible, they gave a rough estimate of $10 ~ 15 K to bring 200 Amp service across the alley, to the property line. I dropped that idea like a hot potato !
Electrician suggested a new panel (100A) in the house with a sub (90A) to the Garage. Did the gas at the same time - I dug the trench (they wanted $600 to do it). I would have said 20" wide x 18" deep but maybe I'm wrong.  Aluminum wire panel to panel, all other copper. On the 90A garage panel he put in 5 X 240 circuits (3 @ 50A and 2 @ 20A) ( one was just rough in for possible EV charger) also 4 or 5 120V x 20A circuits.


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## Johnwa (Sep 22, 2021)

In Calgary I believe the main panel has to be done by a licensed electrician,  The home owner can do sub panels though.  As a DIYer I won’t touch aluminum, copper is way more forgiving.


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## trlvn (Sep 22, 2021)

cuslog said:


> On the 90A garage panel he put in 5 X 240 circuits (3 @ 50A and 2 @ 20A) ( one was just rough in for possible EV charger) also 4 or 5 120V x 20A circuits.


I was reading that home charging stations for Tesla vehicles can use up to 80 amps at 240 volts.  What capacity did you rough in for your garage?

Craig


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## cuslog (Sep 22, 2021)

I don't think the wire they installed would take 80 Amps, without going out there to verify, I'd say its probably 12 ga. I just relied on sparky to put in suitably sized wire. So maybe a Tesla isn't in my future ?  He did say some are just 110V ? Welder plug is nearby though, that's 6 ga. IIRC.


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## trlvn (Sep 22, 2021)

cuslog said:


> I don't think the wire they installed would take 80 Amps, without going out there to verify, I'd say its probably 12 ga. I just relied on sparky to put in suitably sized wire. So maybe a Tesla isn't in my future ?  He did say some are just 110V ? Welder plug is nearby though, that's 6 ga. IIRC.


I was shocked at the 80 amp reference.  (Haha, "shocked"!)  They call it "trickle charging" if connected to a 120 volt circuit.  Apparently it adds 2 or 3 miles of range per hour of charging at that level.  The 80A @ 240V is called Level 2 and will fully charge the vehicle in ~6 hours, IIRC.  The Tesla Supercharger stations are apparently a 480V connection.

Even if the vehicle is only charged at Off-peak rates, that must add a very significant kick to the electricity bill!

Craig


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## cuslog (Sep 22, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I was reading that home charging stations for Tesla vehicles can use up to 80 amps at 240 volts.  What capacity did you rough in for your garage?
> 
> Craig


I was wrong -- it's 10 ga. wire they installed for "EV rough in".
Howard


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## CalgaryPT (Sep 22, 2021)

Depending on soil conditions in your area, and length of run, renting a 24" Ditch Witch (Trencher) could save you thousands. Some places offer delivery and pickup as well. They look intimidating, but actually aren't that tough to operate.


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## Brent H (Sep 22, 2021)

10 is good for 30 amps


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 22, 2021)

I rented a trencher from Home Depot last year to do an electrical trench. It was great, 80’ trench, 26” down, 50 minutes (bit I have lots of room to maneuver)

I have a small backhoe, and I’d rent the trencher again vs using the hoe. Right tool for the job


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 22, 2021)

If you are in Calgary I have lots of that red warning electrical burial tape. Never going to use it


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## YYCHM (Sep 22, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> I rented a trencher from Home Depot last year to do an electrical trench. It was great, 80’ trench, 26” down, 50 minutes (bit I have lots of room to maneuver)
> 
> I have a small backhoe, and I’d rent the trencher again vs using the hoe. Right tool for the job



How wide a trench did that thing make?


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 22, 2021)

Between 4” and 6”


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 22, 2021)

About 20 years ago you could put electrical and gas on top of each other separated by a 2x4 …. Not sure now


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## CalgaryPT (Sep 22, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> I rented a trencher from Home Depot last year to do an electrical trench. It was great, 80’ trench, 26” down, 50 minutes (bit I have lots of room to maneuver)
> 
> I have a small backhoe, and I’d rent the trencher again vs using the hoe. Right tool for the job
> 
> ...


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## Perry (Sep 23, 2021)

Thank you for all the input guys.  

Well I'm up late playing with CAD figuring out my plan.  

The first estimator called me this evening with a possible issue.   The Enmax lines run on the opposite side of the alley from me.  With the (max) 900mm mast on the peak of the garage I may not have enough clearance in the alley to meet the 5.5M requirement.   The peak of my garage runs 90degress to the alley.  Moving the mast to the other end of the garage with a 90mm mast on the peak solves the 5.5M height requirement, but they prefer that you do not run the cable over the roof line and if you do, the cable must be a minimum 1 meter above the roof line.  (Well that doesn't work well with a maximum mast height of 900mm. )

I walked down the alley and I'm sure I found at least a couple installs that do not meet this requirement, but I want it done correctly.

Without coming back to take a bunch of measurements the installer said my other option is to go over head to the house and back to the garage in the trench.  (Not my first choice, I would like to get rid of overhead lines in the backyard.

So, I'm out in the alley at dark......with my laser point, a protractor and a long tape measure just waiting for the police to show up.

The connection to the secondary feed lines (I'm hoping that is the correct term) is approximately 25 feet above ground on the opposite side of the alley.
There is a 4' space between the alley and garage.  (I'm on a corner lot.  My driveway runs parallel to the alley).  The peak of the garage to the ground is 13'.
Now the alley is approx. 6" lower then the ground beside the garage.  I used the height from the ground beside the garage.   I used 25' for the connection point to error on the side of safety, it's probably closer to 26'++.    As you can see in the CAD it just touches the corner of the 5.5M alley clearance.   















So I thought about going to the corner but the line still passes over the roof.  I was surprised the clearance was good in the alley.











I'm thinking of contacting a city inspector tomorrow and see what he thinks of these.



@cuslog   They quoted me $600 for the trench also.    I think I need the exercise.      Cheaper then a gym membership.


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 23, 2021)

The 600 is not a bad price..... Renting the trencher (1 day rental) was like $280.... add to that the time to get home, trenching time, washing the machine and returning it......  

Of the 3 quotes to do my electrical.... only one included the trenching and they quoted $2000 (the I don't want to do it price).  The other two companies said it was a loss leader for them.  None of the companies could be bothered to contact Fortis to get a quote on upgrading my service from the pole to the house to upgrade me from 100 to 200 amp.  Too much work as the line is ~400 feet.

I hope you're getting better quotes.


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## cuslog (Sep 23, 2021)

"The 600 is not a bad price....."
No, its not a bad price -- installer said it had to be ~20" wide x 18" deep - (both gas and electric in the trench) you'd need a little backhoe to do that.
I dug it by hand - over 2 days (3 or 4 hours a day was about enough for me).


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## Tom O (Sep 23, 2021)

Don’t forget those cables sag and expand


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## Perry (Sep 23, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Don’t forget those cables sag and expand




Notice how nice and tight they are in my CAD.  I'm sure if I played long enough I  could make a formula to draw a sagging cable.  Probably take me longer then digging the trench.  

Thank you. I did take that into acount.


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## Perry (Sep 23, 2021)

cuslog said:


> "The 600 is not a bad price....."
> No, its not a bad price -- installer said it had to be ~20" wide x 18" deep - (both gas and electric in the trench) you'd need a little backhoe to do that.
> I dug it by hand - over 2 days (3 or 4 hours a day was about enough for me).



If I was using a trencher, I think I could do two small parallel trenches.


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## Perry (Sep 23, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> I hope you're getting better quotes.



No quotes yet for the job.   Second estimator postponed today until Friday.  First estimator still working on what his plan will be.


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## Dabbler (Sep 25, 2021)

A little bit to unpack here...  (sorry I'm late to the discussion)

1.  Gas and electric 'can' run in the same trench, but my pipefitter wouldn't do iot when I ran my gas to the garage.  Apparently it is safer to keep them separate.

2.  When I first moved into my house I had a 60 amp service with 8 breakers.  I upgraded to a 100 amp service with a 48 breaker panel and ran a 60 amp lead to the old panel.  Much cheaper than rewiring everything.

3.  Do you need a 200 amp service? Perhaps not, but extra capacity can be nice.  I run a 60 amp lead to my garage to a 32 breaker panel.  I've never needed more.  I run a 15HP 3phase converted a 7.5 HP 3PH lathe, and multiple 50A welders.  Never a problem.

4. I had a celarance problem as well, but they ran the mast to a good point and ran the lead-in to my panel inside the house, and it was fine.  I seem to recall they were allowed 25 or 35 feet (or was it 10m?) befor it had to enter the main panel.

At the time a completely new run to the house with new main panel, and 60 amps to the old one was just north of 1000$, but it gave me discounts on my insurance.


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## PeterT (Sep 25, 2021)

Some smarter folks here can fill in the proper terminology but don't do what I did which was run a single TEC? cable that may turn out to be less amps than you discover you require later. You may not be welding when you are running a mill, but maybe the compressor will come on or a buddy will be operating another machine.... something like that. Turns out I'm OK but amp duty on the cable is not a smart place to penny pinch IMO. Re-opening a now sodded or landscaped ditch that was already exposed once upon a time to drop in a bigger or second line would make one feel sheepish. So either run a conduit pipe you can pull more wires through or do it right the first time meaning amp capability. 

The gas+electric same trench has been discussed a few times. Whether conduit pipe works in conjunction with gas and/or what is required for separation is something you should check into for your own (read insurance/inspection?) purposes because it may have changed over the years.


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## Perry (Sep 28, 2021)

Ok, first quote came in today.   Just under $11000. (They quoted with a copper feeder.   Stated I could save $700 if I used aluminum.)   I was expecting more around $7000-8000.   Crazy.    

I had gotten an estimate at the end of 2015 right after I finished the garage. $3000    A broken ankle and leg shortly afterwards put everything on hold.

Hopefully the second estimate will be easier to swallow.


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## Dabbler (Sep 28, 2021)

Perry said:


> Just under $11000



wow.  My garage electrical was 700$.  My gas run was 950$, but included hooking up the furnace.  I couldn't afford those prices now, or even when I had things done, before retiring...


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## Tom O (Sep 28, 2021)

Could you rough it in yourself and have them tie it in that should reduce the price.


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## Perry (Sep 29, 2021)

I had hopes for the first estimator.  Seemed like a good fit for the job.  Still no quote.  

Called a third company yesterday and already got a response from them . They only do electrical installs so this quote does not include the gas line.  I'm guessing the gas line install adds another $1500 to this.  $6,820.19  So I'm getting closer to my $7000-$8000.

I'm learning as I go.   This third estimate breaks the pricing done to much lower level.  One item that made sense to me was to remove the over head data and phone lines and install them in the trench to the house also.  (Cleans up the back yard.)  This requires another mast.  Cost $700.  Cable and 1.5' conduit to house with a coax and a CAT5.  $800.  So $1500 of this pricing is just related to the data and phones lines.  


Thinking this thru this evening I have a question regarding the panel.  I know all panels and circuit breakers are not the same.  You need to use the breaker that is designed for your panel.  (Same manufacturer)  Is there a preferred panel that I should be looking for??       200amp panel in the garage.  100 amp panel in the house.

@*Tom O*  I probably could, but I would be moving pretty slow and learning as I go. (It would be the first time for me to do this.)  The longer term plan after the panel is in will be to get a permit to wire the garage electrical. I've done this before and I am comfortable and capable of this level of work.   This was one place I knew I could reduce some of my costs.            Farther down the line I will do some upgrades in the house.

@*Dabbler*  I retired August 01.  That is what got me to thinking I could actually make more use of my garage now.


Thank you for the time guys.  I appreciate the comments and thoughts.


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## RobinHood (Sep 29, 2021)

Perry said:


> Is there a preferred panel that I should be looking for??



There is one you may want to stay away from: Schneider Electric Stab Lok, aka, Federal Pioneer Stab Lok. Why? Because some of their circuit breakers have a very high failure rate, the panels have been banned in certain jurisdictions (in the USA) even though we still use them here in Canada. There have been class action law suits against FPE, Federal, and Schneider and some home insurance companies will not insure the home if you have those types of breaker panels in your house (US jurisdictions).

We have a Stab Lok panel in the house (built in 1989). If we need to replace it for whatever reason, it won’t be Stab Lok any more. For the shop I am using Square D. Breakers / Panels are cheaper than Stab Lok, and more readily available with a larger selection of options.

Here are links to some of the concerns I have listed above:

https://allistonhomeinspector.com/federal-pioneer-panels/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...27af86-4ef9-11e8-b725-92c89fe3ca4c_story.html

https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/Federal_Pioneer_Electric_Panel.php

There are many more references.

It does appear that the breakers / panels sold in the US were manufactured in a different facility than the items sold here in Canada.


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## PeterT (Sep 29, 2021)

Not sure if this helps. I called these guys on my dads 1960's home few years back which required some significant panel (and related exterior mast?) work. 
https://panelupgradeexperts.com/
FWIW, his response, quote, code knowledge & overall communication seemed pretty good, as did references. I didn't pursue how price compared because Dad had to move shortly thereafter, so we dodged the bullet.


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 29, 2021)

I have electrical and gas in the same trench. No issues. I digged trench myself. 

AL feeder is fine - many feeders are AL. I do not see much of an issue with AL as a feeder. For my garage feeder I have copper - AL is much thicker.

Gas line connection and a nice furnace like 4 years ago was around 2500. 

Note that we are under huge inflation - like 15% per year now or so. Thus expect prices to skyrocket for everything.


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## Perry (Sep 29, 2021)

@*RobinHood*   Thank you.  Sounds like the lower estimate uses a Schneider Homeline panels.  Not sure if this is the Stab Lok, I will have to research this.

@*PeterT*   This was the third place I called.  Great communication and super fast response on their estimate.  Presently the lowest estimate.  On the down side I need to find a separate contractor to do the gas work.


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## RobinHood (Sep 29, 2021)

I believe that StabLok and HomeLine are not the same type of breakers. HomeLine is a new type of system also made by Schneider Electric.
One thing that is really nice about StabLok is their colour coded breakers - only ones on the market, afaik.

The StabLok issues I mentioned was just some food for thought - we had no problems with ours.


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## Perry (Sep 29, 2021)

Thank you R.  I will read up on them this evening.

It's not knowing what to look out for.  That is why these forum are a wealth of information.


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## Dabbler (Sep 29, 2021)

I have Stab Lok breaker panels in both home and garage.  Mine were both installed and filled before Federal sent all manufacturing to 3rd world countries, which resulted in large runs of substandard breakers.  Instead of destroying the bad runs, the company decided to sell the defective ones and fight the lawsuits.  Bankruptcy and destroyed reputation followed.  Why we were allowed to continue to sell Stab lok is that once a pattern emerged of house fires,  Federal had to recall all breakers produced in the period and were disallowed from selling their breakers in Canada (they were delisted).

So all breakers you buy for these panels in Canada have been newly certified, and are considered safe. FWIW.  I used to love Stab Lok over Siemens because the breakers were far more reliable (oh, the irony!)

Would I use stab lok now in a new installation?  No way.  Would I replace what has been working for over 30 years?  Nope to that also.

Ther best breaker panel to use is the one that your certified electrician has the most experience with.  Most faults and fires are caused by incorrect installation (save the stab-lok fiasco).  

I have installed Stab-lok, Siermens, and Square D panels.  Of the three, Square D is my fave, becaue there is more room to route wires inside.  Otherwise, Siemens is fine too.  They seem to have fixed their quality problems with their breakers. They used to fail open which was a pain because of replacement cost...


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## Perry (Oct 2, 2021)

Trench digging  day.    

I have a section of concrete up against the house.    I need to remove 20" of it from the end.   7 foot length of cut.      I've dug under concrete before on an old driveway and broken it away with a sledge hammer.   On this one I would like cleaner edge.

Do you think if I could score it with a diamond blade in an angle grinder I would get a cleaner break?   Any other ideas?   Wasting my time?    Down the line (a long line) I will most likely remove this whole slab and replace it. 

Ok.  back to digging.


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## YYCHM (Oct 2, 2021)

Rent a concrete saw.


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## Dusty (Oct 2, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Rent a concrete saw.



Better yet put a cement cutting blade in your hand grinder and cut a straight line across your slab of cement say about 1" deep. As you break the cement away with a sledge the underneath cement can be rough.  This setup has worked for me.


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## Tom O (Oct 2, 2021)

7 feet worth I think I’d rent at least price it out otherwise if I had a diamond saw at my disposal I’d try the grinder minding the dust being kicked up that the lungs won’t break down.


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## Perry (Oct 3, 2021)

Well for the price of a concrete blade for my angle grinder I was able to rent this from HomeDepot.  $15.00 for 4 hours. 

Only cuts down 1 1/8"  (The site state 1 3/8")  but deep enough to make a nice straight score.

The larger machines that would cut all the way thru are much more expensive and then you need to rent a blade also.

Cuts fast and clean.    Makes a lot of dust.


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## Perry (Oct 8, 2021)

Just an update for you gents.   


First estimator came back with a $7200 for gas and electrical.  He set up an appointment with an electrical inspector to talk about the line clearance in the alley.

In post number 19 I said...
"Moving the mast to the other end of the garage with a 90mm mast on the peak solves the 5.5M height requirement, but they prefer that you do not run the cable over the roof line and if you do, the cable must be a minimum 1 meter above the roof line.  (Well that doesn't work well with a maximum mast height of 900mm. )"

The inspector said that part of the code means they prefer you do not run the cables over the peak of the roof and if you do then you need a clearance of 1m from the peak of the roof to the cable.  This allows me to use my plan of moving the mast farther from the alley to meet the clearance requirements.  (Hope this might help someone else down the line)

With the lower estimate I decided I might as well put the furnace in at the same time.   Did a lot of reading and I think I'll be installing a Reznor.  My garage has 8'6" walls.  Just not high enough for the radiant to maintain all the required clearances. (When moving things/vehicles around and such)  Also in my research I read that the radiant energy can cause your skin to age faster and may be harmful to your eyes.  


I thought I was done digging my trench.




My back yard is lower then the slab around the house.  I followed the grade and kept my trench at 20" deep.  This would be find if you bury a cable in the ground.   The electrician would prefer to put the cable in a conduit.  You are only allowed two 90 degree bends in the conduit.  So this means the trench must be the same depth from house to garage.   Tomorrow I need to dig a 7 foot section down another 20-24".

I know the horizontal exhaust is more expensive then the vertical because stainless is required.   I'm happy with the vertical unless you gents know of any reasons I should be choosing the horizontal.

Work starts Wednesday.    


Happy Thanksgiving gentlemen.


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## Dabbler (Oct 9, 2021)

My furnace uses a vertical vent it works fine.


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## Brent H (Oct 9, 2021)

Vertical vent on my one Garage heater - no issues.


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## PeterT (Oct 9, 2021)

When I dug my trench the electrician encouraged me to lay in a (I'll call it) communication cable. Not sure if this is completely outdated with better strength Wifi & such. My signal in the shop isn't great but neither is my laptop & maybe influenced by position of transmitter in the house. Anyways, I've heard of people who install routers or boosters. Same idea - stuff in what you can while the trench is open even if it means a conduit you can pull things through. Because you probably don't want to b back in there anytime soon. 

And then there was some kind of marking board to lay on top (that goes 'clunk' against a shovel if the next guy ever does some deep digging). Maybe that's code, not sure, but sounded like a good idea.


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## Tom O (Oct 9, 2021)

Is there any future plans for video surveillance out to the garage while you have a trench open?


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## YYCHM (Oct 9, 2021)

Did you dig that trench by hand?  How long did that take?


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## Dusty (Oct 9, 2021)

Perry said:


> Just an update for you gents.
> 
> 
> First estimator came back with a $7200 for gas and electrical.  He set up an appointment with an electrical inspector to talk about the line clearance in the alley.
> ...


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## YotaBota (Oct 9, 2021)

Comms is a good idea, I worked a comms install shop for a few years. I would run three Cat5e cables in a separate conduit on the opposite side of the trench from the power. Three Cat5e cables - one for the network, one for phone, a spare and a pull string in case you ever need to add (coax) or replace a cable. I don't remember seeing any distance from the shop to the house mentioned but Cat5e is reliable only to about 100m. 
At the very least run the conduit so you have the option to run cables later.
Not trying to tell you what to do, just my 2 cents


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## Perry (Oct 9, 2021)

@ Dabbler, Brent H   
Thank you for the input.   I could not see any reason not to go vertical but you never know. 

@ PeterT, Tom O, YotaBota
I already have security cameras installed on the garage.  These are Wifi based.  With the electrical going under ground I figured I would do the same to the data lines from the alley. Cleans up the overhead cables in the back yard.  They will enter the garage and then there will be a separate conduit with CAT5 and Coax and a few pull strings going to the house.  The cameras will be changed over to network connection when this is finished. 

@ YYCHM
"Did you dig that trench by hand?  How long did that take?"
I used a shovel.  My hands are too soft.     It took about 7-8 hours.   This includes cutting and breaking up the concrete.

I had to do it over a few days. My grandmother is 104 years old.  She has been having a few things going on the week I was digging this.  She needed to go in for an IV twice a day in the hospital in Canmore.  I was doing the evening appointments.  I would head out every afternoon.   Take her in for her 8:00pm visit and get back late to Calgary.   I'd get two to three hours of digging in prior to heading out.

When ATCO came out for the gas quote the gentleman commented on my trench.   Made me feel pretty good.  lol 

Here is the trench today before I headed out to Canmore.   Hard to see but the area closer to the house is now level with the rest of the trench.   Ready for conduit.  






@ Dusty
The cement broke just like I had hoped it would.  Thank you for your input earlier.  I'm surprised, no blisters or sore back.  Maybe only doing a couple hours a day was  in my favor.    I will update the thread as it progresses.


Have a great night guys.  Thank you for the comments.  


Off to read about my electrical for the garage.   I'm planning on getting an electrical permit to wire the garage myself.  This will be the next stage of the project after the electrical panel and the gas are finished.


P.


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## Perry (Oct 10, 2021)

Prepping the garage for the furnace install this evening.   The furnace will be located in the corner ceiling area.  This area is in the top right of the attached photo.

This requires me to disassemble my industrial shelving/workbench to make room for the furnace.   The right side of my shelving is made of 8' beams.  The left side are 12' beams.  Trading those 12' beams for 8' beams would seem to be my best solution. 

Is there anywhere in Calgary that deals with this used industrial shelving?  I would like to purchase four 8' beams and hopefully get rid of four 12' beams.


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## RobinHood (Oct 11, 2021)

Perry, I have similar industrial shelving that was too long. I took an angle grinder with a cut-off disc and ground off the end cap welds so I could remove the mounting flange on each of the four beams. Then I shortened the beam (also with the cut-off wheel) and welded the flanges back on. Worked very well.

I do not know if there is a place where they sell used shelving in YYC. There probably is though.


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

Well COVID is messing with my plans.   

Apparently there is a shortage of mechanical supplies due to COVID.  My estimate has been raised 10%.  

Even after agreeing to the new cost, the contractor can not get all the items he needs to complete the job.  The panels and some wire are on order.  

On the good side he agreed to come out today and complete the "in ground" items.  Inspectors scheduled for Friday, which means I should be able to get the trench filled in before the snow flies.

Slow and steady.  


Originally I was not going to install the furnace until I had completed the insulation and drywall.    With the "cheap" estimate I decided to go ahead and do the furnace at the same time.  This means there is no drywall in place yet.


Do you gents recommend installing one sheet of drywall on the ceiling where the furnace will be mounted before they install the furnace?  I figure this might be easier then trying to work around it afterwards?        Vapor barrier under the one sheet and leave the rest of the vapor barrier just hanging for later install after I insulate?


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## Dusty (Oct 13, 2021)

Question: Do you gents recommend installing one sheet of drywall on the ceiling where the furnace will be mounted before they install the furnace? I figure this might be easier then trying to work around it afterwards? Vapor barrier under the one sheet and leave the rest of the vapor barrier just hanging for later install after I insulate?

Sounds like a perfect solution to me to finish the ceiling above your furnace installation area first. You definitely don't want to be buttoning things up after the fact. Been there done that, pain in the rear.


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## cuslog (Oct 13, 2021)

My furnace was installed at the same time as the "rough in" wiring. I installed insulation, V/B and drywall above the furnace location, where the chimney went (horizontal) through the wall (before furnace). Also where the 3/4 plywood will go for the panel. Built access hatches in the ceiling where the wiring goes up and branches out across the ceiling, another one beside the garage door opener (used that one already after the opener broke down recently ).


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

That's why I like you guys.    Cuslog, I never even though about behind the panel.  I was thinking the panel would be installed between the studs.  Haven't thought this thru 100%.

I know I seen panels mounted flush with the drywall and all wiring hidden in behind.   Also seen the plywood mount, with all the branches visible.
Guess I better start reading. 

I was planning one access door.  Might have to rethink that also.

Thank you


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## YYCHM (Oct 13, 2021)

What's in this trench?


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

@*YYCHM*,   on the left you have the new feeder cable in a conduit from the garage to the house.  (The main 200 amp panel will be in the garage).  The center is a conduit for the data lines.  Cable, phone, network.  The right is the gas line.  It still has the pressure test gauge on it for the inspector to check on Friday.  (They test underground gas line at 50psi.  In a house they test for 15psi.   I'm learning.  


Or were you asking about the leaves?   I'm just happy it's not snow.


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

On the left side of the entrance door is a hole with a ground plate.   The mast will be directly above this and the panel will be mounted inside the garage between the two points.


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## YYCHM (Oct 13, 2021)

Really..... they run copper pipe like that for gas eh.  I'm surprised.  What diameter is the gas line?


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Really..... they run copper pipe like that for gas eh.  I'm surprised.


I was too.   When I had ATCO out, they mentioned a manufactured line with risers on each end.    This contractor says he likes the soild copper run as there is no mechanic joint.  I'm not basing this on fact, but from what I understand there is a crimped connection on the manufactured line when the pipe meets the riser?

It only carries gas at 2 psi.   Another piece of info I absorbed.


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

Sorry, missed the question on the gas line diameter.   I'm guessing 1.25"  I will measure tomorrow and update.


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## Dabbler (Oct 13, 2021)

@Perry, I was hoping you could benefit from what I would call a mistake in my garage installation...

At the time I insulated my garage there was no code requirement for drywall in the garage if it was detached.  I should have sheathed my walls and ceiling with 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood instead of drywall.  It would have saved hundreds of little annoyances that made installation of cupboards, hangers, and even electrical more difficult in the 'industrial' setting of my garage.

I installed my own ceiling furnace.  To do so I installed 1/2" plywood over top of the existing drywall, which worked well.  I used the existing gas line, and extended it from the floor to the ceiling...

After having two bad gas installation experiences in the past (water under the bridge)  I install all my own gas appliances these days - main furnace, garage furnace and water heaters.

So for your own protection, after the install guy pronounces it 'done' and before you turn it on, go to every joint with a spray bottle of water with a teaspoon of liquid dish detergent, and spray every joint...  also meticulously check ever vent joint.  I made a mistake with my flue on installing my garage heater, discovered by Janger - but it was quickly and permanently corrected.  Anyone can make a mistake! even professional installers...


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## Perry (Oct 13, 2021)

Thank you Dabbler.  Good information.    

I just picked up a new carbon monoxide/smoke detector this evening when I was at Costco with the thought of the new furnace in the garage. 

I have been looking at other options of wall coverings.  When I poured the pad, I got the 6 inch curb wall.  The idea was to keep the drywall off the floor and gain a little more height.   That adds a fair amount to the concrete pad. 

An interesting wall covering I found online is pallet walls.  Reclaimed wood from pallets.   Sure looks good on some of the online photos, but I can only imagine the mess mine would look like.  lol


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## Dabbler (Oct 14, 2021)

My garage was already built or I would have had 6-8" curb walls poured.  oh well!

I don't know if code right now requires drywall, but a quick call to City of Calgary Development analyst will get you to the answer.

Great idea for a wall, and somewhat free, too -- a lot of work, though...


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## Chicken lights (Oct 14, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @Perry, I was hoping you could benefit from what I would call a mistake in my garage installation...
> 
> At the time I insulated my garage there was no code requirement for drywall in the garage if it was detached.  I should have sheathed my walls and ceiling with 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood instead of drywall.  It would have saved hundreds of little annoyances that made installation of cupboards, hangers, and even electrical more difficult in the 'industrial' setting of my garage.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity- no worries on fires? I get it’s easier to mount things to plywood (how my shop is), but I’m very cautious using torches inside. Drywall or tin would negate that, but I don’t think I’d want drywall 

And not to knock pro’s, but yes they have their off days too. Generally I prefer working with pro’s because they usually make things look easy. We all have those days where you get in a hurry and it’s not your A game


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## Perry (Oct 14, 2021)

@*Chicken lights*  Pallets don't make good firewood do they?      Good point on the fire hazard.  I'm leaning back to drywall. 

@*YYCHM*  The copper line has an O.D. of 7/8".   No way to check wall thickness.  I will ask when they return for part 2 of the install.


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## Tom O (Oct 14, 2021)

Mine is insulated with 3/8 ply in my garage and think it helps heating the garage as it doesn’t have 1/2 inch of plaster to heat up as well as attaching things to the wall is a hell of a lot easier.


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## kevin.decelles (Oct 14, 2021)

The last gas line I ran was built by atco, was yellow ‘plastic’ with risers. It was built to length and came pressure tested. Simply unroll and lay in trench

That copper intrigues me I have to say.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Perry (Oct 24, 2021)

No progress last week.  Maybe this week will be better.     Actually there was a little progress from the the week before.  The trench work has passed the gas and electrical inspection.   Filled the trench in last Saturday and now waiting on the contractors to get the supplies. 



So sitting here this evening thinking of my next steps.  

The plan is to get a permit and wire the garage myself after the new panels and  furnace are in. 

I know I need a plug for each car location in the garage.
A plug within 1m of each garage door opener. 

Any other code requirements?

How many circuits would you run?   I have one external plug on the garage for yard work?  Does that need to be on a separate circuit?  ( I believe on a house out door plugs need to be on a separate circuit.)


I would like a 240V plug.  I do not have any 240V equipment, but you know how that goes.   So the question is what type of socket?   Current  requirements?

I had planned on installing a Nema 14-50 with 6/3 romex for a possible car charger location for down the line.   Should I just use this as my 240V source until I need(if ever) a car charger?      Do I need more then one 240V plug for possible equipment upgrades?

6/3 Romex is not cheap and I might have to rethink the location of my car charging plug.    (The closer to the panel the better).


Good night to do a little reading.


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## Tom O (Oct 24, 2021)

I’d have at least 2 240 outlets one for a compressor and one for a welder 3 maybe if your considering a phase converter as well as led lights on the front of the garage that come on at dusk to discourage night crawlers. One of my 240 plugs for the welder is a direct hookup to the panel using a 50’ cable that works well.


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## Perry (Oct 24, 2021)

Funny how life works.      I was just offered a 60 gallon compressor (Powerfist) with a sand blasting cabinet. Compressor uses 240V.


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## Perry (Oct 24, 2021)

Tom O said:


> I’d have at least 2 240 outlets one for a compressor and one for a welder 3 maybe if your considering a phase converter as well as led lights on the front of the garage that come on at dusk to discourage night crawlers. One of my 240 plugs for the welder is a direct hookup to the panel using a 50’ cable that works well.


LED lights.   I've been reading on those too.  This is for the interior.    So many choices.

I've got three boxes out front for lighting at the front of the garage. One on each side at the peak of the gable  side of the roof for motion sensor lights.


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## Dabbler (Oct 24, 2021)

I'd suggest  3-50 Amp 240V circuits each on its own breaker (using a 50Amp stove plugs)  This allows you to use a compressor, welder or other 240V items without plugging and unplugging.  I'd also wire a 240V 20a circuit with at least 3 outlets.  This will allow you to use a 240V mill or bandsaw easily.  At least 4 circuits for 110V, 2 15Amp and 2 20 amp - and then your car plug ins.  (and then of course at least 1 lighting circuit - I have 2 separate lighting circuits...)

When I wired my garage I put in a lot of outlets, and then I just kept needing to add more!


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## Tom Kitta (Oct 25, 2021)

My 800ft garage has 3 240v on each wall on 2 separate circuits. I also have two circuits for 120v, per sides. Furnace is on separate one, as is garage opener I never installed. Plus two circuits for outside. I have separate one for compressor. I just got a large panel for a house. Used that as sub panel. I have 4 rows of lights, with 4 switches, not sure how many circuits. Panel is less then half full. 

So number of outlets is size dependent - my dad has about half the size of a garage and just 4x 240v, 2 per side, plus one circuit for the compressor. 

All my 240v are welder outlets. I hate the fact there are so many standards in North America - it is sooooo much better in EU. 

I have lots of outlets but as Dabbler have pointed out even when you think you have overkill.... you don't.


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## Chicken lights (Oct 25, 2021)

Keeping in mind I could rewire the air compressor, but they ran a 15 amp 240v plug for me when I moved into my current shop. There’s so many choices for 240v plugs. Going from memory I have one 110v circuit for lights, one 110v circuit for receptacles and the one 240v for my air compressor. Even with LEDs I’m pretty sure my light circuit is overloaded, I’d be happier with 3 or 4 circuits for lights. But I’m also close to 2000 sq ft. 
I ran extra receptacles where I wanted machines and lights and still could use another 5-6 receptacles. Charging stations for cordless tools fill up fast. You’re probably gonna wire and plumb everything you possibly think you’ll ever use, then after using the space for a year or two come up with a wish list of things you’d do differently


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## Tom O (Oct 25, 2021)

The led lights make a hell of a difference we used the thin ones from Home Depo.


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## Perry (Oct 25, 2021)

Tom O said:


> The led lights make a hell of a difference we used the thin ones from Home Depo.
> View attachment 17877


How are these wired in?  Do they need a junction box at each location?


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## Dabbler (Oct 25, 2021)

Perry said:


> Do they need a junction box at each location?



usually they have an electronic ballast in a box built in for wiring and supplying power to the LEDs.  You make the junction there.


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## Perry (Oct 25, 2021)

This might be helpful to some one who reads this thread in the future.  I found it on the  city of Airdrie website, but I'm sure most of this would apply to Calgary also.   Some good information in here.  Answered a lot of the questions I already had searched for answers for.

Electrical for Garages

If the link does not work, contact me, I kept a copy of it.

I'm glad I read page 5.   I could see myself drilling holes thru trusses to run wiring.   lol. 

Contractor updated me today.  On hold until November 17th.  This is the first appointment for Enmax to come out and do the disconnect.  (and hopefully the reconnect later that day) for the new service.   Garage furnace will be installed on the same day.

So all I can do is sit and plan my wiring.  I'm planning for something in the future.  I have no idea what I will need next year let alone tomorrow.


Some other reading lead me to this interesting note of information.  The US rules are very close to the Canadian rule regarding having a duplex plug in each car location in a garage. (These can be on a shared circuit.)   A lot of the US electrical guys recommend a 20 amp duplex plug on its own circuit for each car location.   This is an ideal plug to use as a level one charger plug for an EV.


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## Dabbler (Oct 25, 2021)

It is very nice to see Airdrie stepping up and summarizing the code so well.  It is also nice to see the code hasn't changed (much) in the last 25 years or so!

The bottom line - pull a lot more power than you think you will use - I pulled 60 Amps and I'm glad of it.


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## Tom Kitta (Oct 25, 2021)

Power to a garage can be seen as factor of size. My dads is 60amp for about 400sq, mine is 100 for 800 sq so I assume one would want say 200 for 1600 sq garage. In many LEDs there is no controlled outside of LED - its build in. So you just wire it directly to a octagonal (usually) box. At least all of my LEDs are that way.


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## Perry (Oct 25, 2021)

I'm getting a new 200 amp service in the garage.  That should be useful.  The house will be fed from that panel.  There will be a 100 amp panel in the house.  

I should be good for a while in the garage.     Just need to figure out what to install before I drywall.     Presently running super small machines in my basement shop, but I see all the toys you gents have and well envy starts to build.


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## Chicken lights (Oct 26, 2021)

Perry said:


> I'm getting a new 200 amp service in the garage.  That should be useful.  The house will be fed from that panel.  There will be a 100 amp panel in the house.
> 
> I should be good for a while in the garage.     Just need to figure out what to install before I drywall.     Presently running super small machines in my basement shop, but I see all the toys you gents have and well envy starts to build.


Are you planning on doing the drywall? If you are, and haven’t done much drywall before, there’s a few tricks that make it a lot easier


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## Susquatch (Oct 26, 2021)

Perry said:


> I'm getting a new 200 amp service in the garage.  That should be useful.  The house will be fed from that panel.  There will be a 100 amp panel in the house.
> 
> I should be good for a while in the garage.     Just need to figure out what to install before I drywall.     Presently running super small machines in my basement shop, but I see all the toys you gents have and well envy starts to build.



I put 200 into my old shop - a 30x20 garage at my old house, and the new shop came with 200.  I've always been happy with that. Can't have too many electrons. My advice is to go as big as you can.

If you are drywalling, then I'd put as many outlets in as practical and also run half as many 220 outlets as you have 115V outlets. If you use 3 wire 220V Romex for all of them you can reduce the number of 220v outlets (and add them later if needed) AND you can reduce the amount of wire needed by splitting the 220 for the 115 Outlets (think kitchen split receptacles) which can also give you 220 if ever needed down the road and also gives you more outlets for the wire. (costs more for the wire per foot but less wire is needed per circuit). But most importantly, those future 220V needs will thank you eternally!

Also, wire in at least two 50Amp welder outlets (on different walls), and don't let them run two wire circuits to them - run the neutral wire there too. Even if the neutral isn't needed at the welder outlet, you will be glad it's there if you ever need to install a small panel box for lower current supplies or even a higher current 115 (20 or 30Amp).

Last, but not least, don't let your electrician load up the circuits to code. Leave some room for future additions and keep in mind that garage/shop loads are often a lot higher than three rooms in the house.

In other words, plan for much more than you think you will ever need. Bigger gauge wire will never hurt you, but wire that's too small will. Too many outlets is never a problem but not enough sure is. 220 you never use is no big deal but no 220 when you need it is a huge problem. Etc etc.

I personally don't like the idea of wiring to the minimum standards allowed by code. I prefer to go up the scale a bit. Run 12g where 14g is allowed, run fewer boxes per breaker than allowed, don't mix lights and outlets on the same breaker, etc etc.


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## trlvn (Oct 26, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Are you planning on doing the drywall? If you are, and haven’t done much drywall before, there’s a few tricks that make it a lot easier


I've been doing some drywalling the last few days and all I can say is that it confirms that I was right to become an accountant!

Craig


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## Chicken lights (Oct 26, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I've been doing some drywalling the last few days and all I can say is that it confirms that I was right to become an accountant!
> 
> Craig


It’s easy, with the right tools and some experience. Panel lifter, Dremel with a drywall bit, drywall rasp, drywall saw and a T square. Do the ceiling first then the walls. Try to get as many factory edges to mate. Hang a sheet, then use the Dremel to cut out any electrical boxes or fixtures. Then finish screwing it down. The more time you spend doing a good job hanging the sheets, makes the tapers job 100x easier


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## trlvn (Oct 26, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> It’s easy, with the right tools and some experience. Panel lifter, Dremel with a drywall bit, drywall rasp, drywall saw and a T square. Do the ceiling first then the walls. Try to get as many factory edges to mate. Hang a sheet, then use the Dremel to cut out any electrical boxes or fixtures. Then finish screwing it down. The more time you spend doing a good job hanging the sheets, makes the tapers job 100x easier


Yeah, it is the mudding part I suck at.  My late brother was really good at it and used to help me out when I needed it.  He wasn't a great teacher, though, and I never learned myself.  

Thank goodness I'm just doing a storage room 'cause it is turning out UGLY.

Craig
I watched a series of videos on Youtube.  It all looks so easy when a pro is slinging the mud around.


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## Johnwa (Oct 26, 2021)

When I added some plugs in my garage I wired them like in a kitchen.  3 wires off a 2x15 amp breaker so the top and bottom of the receptacles are off different sides of the breaker.  In the future the receptacle could be easily be rewired to 240V.


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## ShawnR (Oct 26, 2021)

@Perry  I just saw this thread. Tons of good advice. I might suggest that all bench or wall receptacles be 20 amp. I have found that a lot of tools are rated at 13 amps but if bogged a bit, can exceed the 15 breaker rating. I have a Lincoln 120  volt Mig unit and it often blows the 15 amp breaker so I have to ensure that it is plugged into the only 20 amp breaker  I have in that area (not that I use it much). For me, 240 outlets at 15 or 20 amp are handy too but depends on what you get into it. I have found I have had to add a few, meaning surface mount conduit or BX or Tec cable. It is a shop so ok but not as nice as planning ahead. My tablesaw can run on 120 but does better on 240 so it has a receptacle centralized for that and one 240 15 amp by the door which accommodates several different tools that have appeared over the years. The new metal lathe required 240 vac 15 amp (never saw that coming when I built the garage many years ago) so another surface mount run nor did I see a 30 amp 240 vac compressor going where I put the receptacle for the 15 amp 240 volt receptacle. 

Power  bars work great for bench lights, chargers, cordless phone bases, shop radio, pencil sharpener,  etc....items that don't draw much power but all take a receptacle spot up. Larger hand grinders (ie 5 inch or 7 inch) might blow a power bar circuit breaker though so that should have its own receptacle. 20 amp wire is #12 and is not much more  $$ than #14. The receptacles cost a bit more. And if you have a receptacle 120 vac 20 wire feeding it, and decide you need 240 15 or 20 amp, you can just swap in a split receptacle and change the receptacle and now have a 240 20 outlet there. Try not to put too many receptacles on one breaker. The code in Ontario is 13 per breaker iirc. As mentioned earlier, if usually only you in the shop, you will probably only run one tool at a time but get a buddy to help and you might be running extension cords to grab another circuit somewhere if you keep blowing breakers. If you are going to wire it yourself, try to have an idea of what the inspectors want to see in that area. Having dealt with a few, they tend to focus on a few things, ie the loop near the box to ensure no tension on the wire, no two lumex under one staple, despite the fact you can buy 2 lumex (cable) staples, nice neat runs into the electrical box, labelled (just a good idea). The neater your work, the nicer he will be (my experience) . I have had one say it is ok to use the friction connection (just plug wire into) on the back of the receptacle and others want a twisted loop around the screw). I have no experience in Alberta but have done garages and a couple of houses in Ontario so my info might not apply where you are. I too have a 200 amp service on my garage at the cottage and a 100 amp panel in the cottage. We had the power to the garage first so we could live in it while we built the cottage.

Receptacles mounted on the front of the bench are my preferred (if the benchtop overhangs enough to protect the receptacles with plugs ) versus having the cord run to the wall behind the bench. On my welding bench, I put 2 receptacles joined by BX cable there. I often have 3 grinders plugged in but only use one at a time and it keeps the bench top free.

Fun part of the planning. Only you know how you work but getting ideas from others is great! Hope my 2 cents helps.

Cheers,


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## ShawnR (Oct 26, 2021)

@Perry I did not see @Johnwa 's post till I posted. That is a great way of doing it too! Similar to my suggestion but you already have the double breaker for future considerations of 240 at the breaker rating, be it 15 or 20 amp. You just won't use the neutral wire if go to 240 but it can be insulated at both ends.


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## Perry (Oct 26, 2021)

Wow, lots of info here.

@Chicken lights  Yes, I will be drywalling myself.  Not a professional but I have done it before.  I'm not as fast as the pros but I do good work.  I even do the mudding and taping with success.  Just slow.  


@Susquatch "use 3 wire 220V Romex"  Great idea. 
                     "run the neutral wire there too"   Yes,  I read that in my research about the EV plugs.  The NEMA14-50 has a neutral.  The plug that was popular                          before this (I forgot the standard) did not have the neutral.  Makes for an issue to upgrade at a later point.  Plus you can always pull 120V off                         of it if need be. 
                        Thank-you
@trlvn "I've been doing some drywalling the last few days and all I can say is that it confirms that I was right to become an accountant!"
            I hung one sheet of drywall on the ceiling by myself ( where the furnace will be installed).  Only dropped the sheet once.     I must be out of shape,               those 5/8 sheets feel heavier then they use to be.   I will be using a lift when the time comes.  Just didn't want to get it for the one sheet.

@Johnwa "3 wires off a 2x15 amp breaker"  - Common thread here.
                 Sometimes I use my shop vac with my CNC mill in the basement.  I noticed if the shop vac and the mill are on the same circuit I can have the
                 mill (CNC) miss random steps.  I always use two separate circuits now when I use the two together.

@ShawnR  More great advise. 


I will keep the thread updated as I go.  

All I can do now is read and plan while I wait the for the electrical and gas to be finished off.    Presenlty scheduled for November 17th. 


Thank you again gentlemen.


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## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

Perry said:


> Sometimes I use my shop vac with my CNC mill in the basement. I noticed if the shop vac and the mill are on the same circuit I can have the
> mill (CNC) miss random steps. I always use two separate circuits now when I use the two together.



This would terrify me. Nice that you noticed it though. I think most of us would mess up a thousand parts before we realized what was happening. 

Most likely you are either dropping voltage or getting noise on the circuit. A bigger gauge wire, shorter run, and sometimes just the quality of the wiring connections would fix the former and a line filter would fix the latter. 

In any event, I'd be trying to find and fix the root problem.


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## Perry (Oct 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> This would terrify me. Nice that you noticed it though. I think most of us would mess up a thousand parts before we realized what was happening.
> 
> Most likely you are either dropping voltage or getting noise on the circuit. A bigger gauge wire, shorter run, and sometimes just the quality of the wiring connections would fix the former and a line filter would fix the latter.
> 
> In any event, I'd be trying to find and fix the root problem.


I'm pretty sure it is a noise issue.    I have a second vacuum that does not cause the issue.(Yet...lol)  The larger shop vac seems to be the only one that does it.  (could be a voltage drop with the larger unit.)

It was pretty random and it hardly ever did it.  It took some time and slowly I realized it would only happen when I was using the shop vac to remove chips while I was milling/  (always on.....not turning the vac on and off). 

Something online made me try a second circuit for the vac and presto, never happened since.

Very hard thing to troubleshoot when the fault is so inconsistent.


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## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

A regular voltmeter will tell you if it's line drop. An oscilloscope will find the noise. Where are you? I have a scope and might be able to stop by. If not, there has to be someone around there who can check it out.


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## Perry (Oct 27, 2021)

I'm in Calgary.    I did a check with a meter and seen no issues.   The problem is the problem is so intermittent. 

I also own a scope, but never hooked it up.   I also own a meter that can sample and log the readings over a longer time frame.  Never hooked it up either.

The first winter it happened twice.  The second winter once.   It was the third winter I had a few in a row and figured something was up.  I've had a few seasons (10+ years) now of no issues now either using a different vacuum or using a separate circuit.  I'm not 100% sure I have it isolated but my money is on the vacuum.   

The problem is getting it to fail consistently to prove it.      I could go back to the original setup to see if it faults, but that could just lead to a messed up project.


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## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

I see. Sounds like it's maybe not worth worrying about then. 

Usually (but not always), when problems are intermittent like that it's a marginality issue. In other words, the equipment with the failure has some resistance to the problem and only fails when the problem gets bad or when the good and bad signals coincide. One look with a Scope will tell you if the vacuum is generating unusual noise that could be causing intermittent problems. It's not very often that a machine generates intermittent noise. It's usually either noisy or not. Same goes with drop. 

Anyway, sometimes it's best to just be happy with what works and move on.


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## Dabbler (Oct 27, 2021)

@Perry It might help to put a line filter on the input side of your CNC mill...  

It is common practice and it can't hurt.  Some of the better power bars have line filtering built in - they're just torroids with wire wrapped around them to inhibit high frequency noise, with some capacitors to help with other forms of noise.  You can make then yourself, but choosing values for the components isn't for a novice. 

THe MOVs in a power bar can help absorb transient spikes, which is what a large vaccuum specializes in creating fron the brush arcs.

It is a failry cheap thing to try that won't waste your money.


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## Dabbler (Oct 27, 2021)

Something like this will definitely help:






						Blue Diamond 10 Outlet AC Power Bar w/ 5 Rotating Outlets, Surge & Spike Protection, Black - Surge Protectors & Power Bars - Memory Express Inc.
					






					www.memoryexpress.com
				




or something like:





						Amazon.com: Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S : Industrial & Scientific
					

Amazon.com: Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S : Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				




or this:


			https://www.amazon.com/Furman-SS6B-Power-Conditioner/dp/B0002D017M/ref=sr_1_17?dchild=1&keywords=powerline%2Bfilters&qid=1635371130&qsid=140-5971656-4218666&sr=8-17&sres=B073MCGBP5%2CB015AMEX5U%2CB000OF4R8C%2CB07X4FFWDH%2CB07ZPWHX2S%2CB07L24HHXY%2CB07FDYRQRY%2CB07XZ5M1HG%2CB01NAKD1HK%2CB07MFW2D1P%2CB07PFDSDZD%2CB084JRXGQV%2CB0002D017M%2CB00XWL2VVK%2CB093PQZVK4%2CB07GKBPYB9&th=1
		


(no affiliation)


----------



## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

I opted for the 30A version of the second unit @Dabbler recommended.

UxcellAC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B016EISUNU/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_P6GHDB8N925KHVN4QGGF?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

That's double the amperage of my mill, but I reasoned that I might want to add other loads down the road. Besides, most filters like that get bigger (physically) to handle the higher current, but the filtering is frequency based not current based so its just as effective at lower currents. 

Last but not least, this one is stocked in Canada.


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## Perry (Oct 28, 2021)

I'd actually gone one step further.  I have an APC uninterruptible power supply with line filtering and surge protection on the controller of the machine.  Checked for ground loops between the controller and the machine.   Even had an IT friend of mine let me use an industrial filter they use in their server rooms. 

I'm good now.   The best I figured it was something caused by the vacuum on the same branch circuit.   I really hope it doesn't come back.  



Edit: I have quit using the UPS on the machine and had no further issues, this thread got me thinking I should hook it back up.   You never know when you might get one of the those bad switch overs on the grid and you are right in the middle of something.     I live close to downtown and have never seen this, but a friend in Tuscany has  power blips all the time.  sometimes complete power outages.


----------



## Susquatch (Oct 28, 2021)

Perry said:


> I'd actually gone one step further.  I have an APC uninterruptible power supply with line filtering and surge protection on the controller of the machine.  Checked for ground loops between the controller and the machine.   Even had an IT friend of mine let me use an industrial filter they use in their server rooms.
> 
> I'm good now.   The best I figured it was something caused by the vacuum on the same branch circuit.   I really hope it doesn't come back.
> 
> ...



Personally, I think @Dabbler nailed it. Vacuums are mostly brushed Motors. Brush arcing acts similar to the points on an automotive engine and create nasty voltage spikes and lots of noise on the supply line. 

My farm is in windmill alley. Power outages, brownouts, and lousy power in general are a fact of life here. I hate them.


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## Perry (Nov 4, 2021)

Just a short update.   The gents did a little work while the weather was warm.   The electrical side is ready for inspection. (prior the Enmax switch over)  Still need gas work.

Do you think the panel is large enough in the garage?   This was the answer to the panel I required not being available.  I guess better larger then smaller.

So I'm starting to think about the next stage of the project where I wire the garage. Do you guys have any recommendations on where to purchase the supplies?  Home Depot?  Dedicated electrical supply company?


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## YYCHM (Nov 4, 2021)

What's the box on the left hand side of the door?








Are they going to leave that gauge on the gas line?


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## Dabbler (Nov 4, 2021)

I buy most of my wiring supplies (I do a lot) at Westburne or Eecol.  Both are very good, but cost a little more than HD or Lowes if you buy in small quantities.


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## Perry (Nov 4, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> What's the box on the left hand side of the door?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The box on the left side is the meter base.  When Enmax switches out the service my meter will be here.  My house is so old the meter is actually inside the house.

That gauge was for the gas inspection.  Shows it is holding it's pressure.  (50psi).   When the gas guys come to complete their work it will be removed and the gas will enter the garage at this point.   The furnace will be right above that entry point in the corner ceiling area.


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## Perry (Nov 4, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I buy most of my wiring supplies (I do a lot) at Westburne or Eecol.  Both are very good, but cost a little more than HD or Lowes if you buy in small quantities.


I am wrong to assume the quality of the materials would be better from an actual electrical supply company?


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## Dabbler (Nov 4, 2021)

Perry said:


> quality of the materials would be better




They generally have the major brands, but also the industrial brands.  For instance, using an industrial 20A outlet instead of a 20A big box one will cost you around triple, but they are very well made, and there a relatively few to install.  I consider spending the extra as good peace of mind...

They also stock the breakers you will need at slightly inflated prices.

For 220V 40/50A  I use big box store stove or dryer outlets, as they are very inexpensive, and I only pump 40 Amps through them any way.  

For long lead ins, for 220V 50A I wait for Princess Auto to put the 50A welding extension cords on sale, usually around 40% off, and use them for lead ins to big lathes or phase converter.  It turns out cheaper than buying the receptacles and getting 50A flex cord by the foot...

One word of caution:  the way our code works, there's nothing stopping you from plugging a puny 12 watt desk lamp into a 220V 50Amp circuit on the 110V legs.  Perfectly legal.  Not recommended.  However it will cost you a *fortune* to exactly match plugs to intended use.  I currently have 220V15A, 220V 20A twist lock 220V 40A  220V 50A, 110v 20a AND 110v 15A plugs.  this has cost me more than it should.  

For instance choose to use one type of 110V circuit, say 110V 20A, and then split the wiring between upper and lower plugs.  Use plenty of circuits to avoid overloading.

For 220V, I suggest you go to just 2 plug types and live with that - 20A 4 wire and 50A 4 wire.  I say 4 wire so you can separate out the 110V legs if needed.  (Yes it will cost you a little more, but is saves a lot of frustration and works out cheaper in the long, long run).

FYI  Ive been doing wiring for 45 years, some industrial 3 phase, and did wiring for a master electrician for quite a while, and he'd come and check my work and pull the permit.  I don't know everything, but these suggestions have come from wiring 4 shops, and learning from the mistakes I've made.

I hope this helps


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## Perry (Nov 4, 2021)

@Dabbler Very good information. Thank you. I appreciate it.


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## Susquatch (Nov 5, 2021)

I second what@Dabbler recommends.

I only buy regular 15Amp outlets at places like Home Depot - and then only for one offs. Usually I have bulk boxes of them that I get at electrical supply shops.

When you are starting out and building a shop/garage, I think it's not obvious what variety of equipment a machinist/fabricator will all need. If I recall correctly, you are planning to insulate and panel the inside. So it makes a lot of sense to go overboard with the variety of supply systems.

When I was building factories and offices, I intentional designed them for flexibility. The problem is that you don't know what you don't know. Hind-sight is always 20-20. It pays big dividends in the long run to plan for the most you might do someday. It might be more costly up front, but it saves big bucks and lots of headache in the long run.

You lucked out and got a fantastic base with that huge panel box. Go ahead and use it!

And don't forget to run the neutrals for the big 220 lines. This is the biggest mistake I see people do. In fact, it's what the previous owner did wrong in my shop. I hate it. It won't hurt to have the neutral there if you don't need it, but you are ripping walls apart or putting surface conduit in if you ever do need it.....  Beyond that, as @Dabbler says, and I said earlier, running the neutral allows you to spilt the lines and run equipment that needs both 220 and/or 110.


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## Perry (Nov 6, 2021)

Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?     

Saturday evening planning night.  I can't seem to find a straight answer.  

A 120V 15 amp circuit can have 12 receptacles or lights.   Easy enough.  

I can see the point of having a single circuit for a Nema 14-50, but I see no rules from placing two (or more) on the same circuit?  

I wouldn't want to do this on the 240V 50 amp line but what about the smaller plugs. 15 amp, 20 amp or 30 amp?


Another comment I seen while reading this evening.   How many of you have seen a power tool with a factory 120V 20 plug?


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## Perry (Nov 6, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> The problem is that you don't know what you don't know.


Oh the more I read...the more I realize.....lol

That is why I'm posting here.   Learning from others is well worth the time.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 6, 2021)

Perry said:


> Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?



well... sort of.  If the expected load is a permanently connected stove or dryer, then - no.  That's because the appliance can be turned on at any time, and takes the entire circuit capability.

Let's use the use case of a 250A Mig welder (mine, a Millermatic 250) at the wire speed I use and the voltage I select, it takes about 20A draw.  I'm the only operator in the shop.  so I could get away with having 2 or 3 receptacles as long as the expected load is near enough 20A.  The chances I'd be using both welders and my phase converter at the same time is zero.  Even with all on, my draw will still be less than 50A - by a small margin.

My 220V 50A plug is single, but I have prewired the circuit for 2 more outlets (not connected... yet).  My 220V20A circuit has 3 receptacles on it, My milling machines which go into that circuit average 8.5 amp draw at full load, so I could run 2 mills at the same time and still have headroom.

My bandsaw, a 1.5HP 220V draws 10A at full draw, which is more than you'd guess, and it has its own 15A circuit.  My regret is that I didn't rewire it to use the 20A recepticles instead of pulling a new circuit.

I hope this helps.


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## Susquatch (Nov 7, 2021)

Perry said:


> Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?
> 
> Saturday evening planning night.  I can't seem to find a straight answer.
> 
> ...



I believe @Dabbler is correct on all counts and his advice is solid too.

I don't know the Alberta code, so I can't say what your code says about it. But I was one of the final editors on Ontario's code many years ago. I can speak to the science and rationale of the code.

I agree with you and wouldn't run more than one 50 amp outlet on a cable. I do agree with @Dabbler that it would do no harm the way you or I might plan to use it. But on the other hand, you (or someone else) MIGHT use it that WAY some day.

Nonetheless, I'll bet your code allows it (or at least doesn't preclude it). 

Theoretically, the breaker will protect you, but breakers do fail. You have a HUGE panel. Use it! Wire is not cheap but way cheaper now than later.

The other advantage of separate cables is the ability to add small subpanels instead of a 50 amp outlet someday. So don't forget to RUN THE NEUTRAL TOO.

I wouldn't even hesitate to run multiple 20A 220V outlets on the same circuit. That's done all the time. Think electric heating. 

Yes, I've seen 20A - 120 outlets. Wired them too. But they would usually be a one off best bought at a box store. Most box stores carry them. I had a 20Amp factory table saw but its long gone now. I still have a 20 amp factory soldering iron. It's a beauty! 

Don't put all your lights and outlets on the same breaker even though you can. It's hell finding your way to the panel box in the dark in a shop environment. Also, consider a battery powered safety light that comes on when the grid power goes out. 

Ah the joy of wiring your own shop...... I am sooooo jealous!


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## trlvn (Nov 7, 2021)

Perry said:


> Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?


Here in Ontario, I had a licensed electrician install two more outlets on a 240 V 15 A circuit (for a total of 3) last month.  Also multiple outlets on a 120 V 20 A circuit.  I didn't ask him about higher amperage circuits.

FWIW,

Craig


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## Susquatch (Nov 7, 2021)

Here is a


Perry said:


> Oh the more I read...the more I realize.....lol
> 
> That is why I'm posting here.   Learning from others is well worth the time.


Here is a screenshot of the relevant section in the national code. The Alberta code may or may not be the same, but would take precedent.

I'm, a bit surprised by the labelling requirement, but I guess I shouldn't be. Canada is the most label centric place on the planet. Many stories I could tell everyone that would make your eyes water.....

I can't resist just one. When child seats were developed for cars, the NGOs wanted a gazzillion warning labels on them. I sent a sample child seat to Transport Canada that was covered in labels as per all the NGO demands. We added one extra label dead center. It said:

"THIS LABEL CAN ALSO BE USED AS A CHILD SEAT".

The final requirements were reduced well below the demands.......

In my opinion, there is no way that lower current circuits code requirements could ever be worse than a 50A Welding circuit - but e-vehicle charging circuits might be..... I would have been consulted on that if I didn't retire before it happened. But I can only imagine what all the lobby groups wanted for that! I'd read it, but I prefer to stay happy.






Here are the two paragraphs from Appendix B that are referred to above. 






I cannot over emphasize that these are from the current national code. Alberta may differ. But it is unlikely.


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## Brent H (Nov 7, 2021)

What if you install a plug, that a welder "could" plug into but also your trailer and maybe your tool grinder or a plasma cutter etc. or your air compressor, the stove if required - maybe back feed an emergency generator.....I guess the "label" would not be required then as my intended purpose is not just for a welder??

My welder has an adaptor that will allow it to plug into 120 V receptacle - that is a shite ton of signage I will need to be posting around the house - LOL


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## Susquatch (Nov 7, 2021)

Brent H said:


> What if you install a plug, that a welder "could" plug into but also your trailer and maybe your tool grinder or a plasma cutter etc. or your air compressor, the stove if required - maybe back feed an emergency generator.....I guess the "label" would not be required then as my intended purpose is not just for a welder??
> 
> My welder has an adaptor that will allow it to plug into 120 V receptacle - that is a shite ton of signage I will need to be posting around the house - LOL



I'm NOT taking any responsibility in any of this. I'm a retired old man now who nobody even remembers. I'm a farmer now.

I would bet BIG money that none of the inspectors even know about the label requirements. Heck, I didn't even know till yesterday.

In my shop there are no labels.

My travel trailer is plugged into an outside 50A stove outlet that includes the neutral so I can have 120v stuff inside. I also ran that outlet to a subpanel out in the yard when my daughter got married.

So ya, @Brent H , if I were you I wouldn't worry about it.

FWIW, I think it's stupid. But codes are often like that. Usually to protect someone from their own stupidity. Maybe as a result of a coroner's report or something like that.

On the other hand, I've seen codes that seemed stupid at first glance but made perfect sense once you understand them - eg removing the ground neutral strap on subpanels.


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## Susquatch (Nov 7, 2021)

Oh the stories I could tell about RV wiring and RV Park wiring..... Nobody knows what they are doing there!


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## Dabbler (Nov 7, 2021)

I was at a garage sale where the guy was selling an RV extension/hookup cord -- using a connector that was delisted over 12 years ago, but apparently still in use in Alberta.  He offered me a great deal, and I told him it wasn't code any more he indignantly told me he used it a few months ago at [RV park name redacted]

The grandfathering clause expired at least 5 years ago!!!

You aren't even allowed to buy that connector anywhere in Canada any more!  (so people buy them on Amazon, and this cable was very cheap offshore.  (so how does all this contribute to safety, he ponders...)


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## Susquatch (Nov 8, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I was at a garage sale where the guy was selling an RV extension/hookup cord -- using a connector that was delisted over 12 years ago, but apparently still in use in Alberta.  He offered me a great deal, and I told him it wasn't code any more he indignantly told me he used it a few months ago at [RV park name redacted]
> 
> The grandfathering clause expired at least 5 years ago!!!
> 
> You aren't even allowed to buy that connector anywhere in Canada any more!  (so people buy them on Amazon, and this cable was very cheap offshore.  (so how does all this contribute to safety, he ponders...)



I saw some just like it at an RV sales place while I was there buying a love-seat lawn chair for my bride and I. (She loves to cuddle around a campfire.)

There were a dozen hazards there including several home-made ones that they put together themselves that were being openly sold to anyone interested. 

Truthfully, there are some very handy people in the RV world, but there are also a gazillion others who don't own a Screwdriver. 

And then there are all those power posts at the trailer park at "nofish lake"...... 

Ever look at the panel box on the side of the utility shed at one of those parks. ......  

@Dabbler - how long and what gauge was the cable? I might have bought it and put new connectors on it or used it for something else. That would at least stop someone else from using it.


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## Dabbler (Nov 8, 2021)

@Susquatch  It was the delisted 30Amp cable with the diagonal blades  and the cable was a flex I'd say 12 gauge - yes it would have burrnt up eventually...


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## Susquatch (Nov 8, 2021)

@Dabbler - I see. You are prolly right.


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## Perry (Nov 9, 2021)

Perry said:


> How many of you have seen a power tool with a factory 120V 20 plug?



I was just wondering if it is worth the effort to install the 120 20 amp plugs?   I personally have never seen a tool that required that .....yet.....let me finish the drywall. 


Electrical inspection tomorrow. (or actually today....12:07 am)     Anywhere between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm.

I have a list of questions.  Might as well ask the inspector.  Maybe I'll be one step ahead when I get my permit.  

Thank you for the input from all of you.


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## Dabbler (Nov 9, 2021)

Perry said:


> I was just wondering if it is worth the effort to install the 120 20 amp plugs



My view is this for almost exactly the same price, you can install a 20A breaker, 2A plugs - the 12 Ga wire is more expensive, but I found out that I'd prefer 20A plugs instead of 15A.  This is your wiring for 20 years, not just for the near future.  I've burnt out 3 cheap 15A duplex receptacles over the years.  I hate to fix my electrics once in place.

If I did it over:

...my walls are all about 25 feet...

1) I'd put 3 duplex 20A  receptacles per wall, (sides and back) the top ones on one circuit, the bottom ones on the other.  This is just for hand power tools. at 4 feet off the floor.
2) I'd also put 3 duplex 20A receptacles in the ceiling  on another circuit.
3) I'd also put a single 15A 110V duplex right at the breaker.  (near the floor standard height)

4)Then I'd wire one  220V 20A circuit as  twist lock, 3 receptacles - one by the breaker panel, one in each corner about 6 feet from the corner.  (extension cords work well for this part)
5) I'd also wire 2 220V50A stove plugs along the back of the garage, 8 feet from the breaker panel, and 16 feet from the panel. 3 feet from the floor.

Oh and 2 separate switched lighting circuits on 15A breakers.

The way to pass inspection is that all the plugs above 15" off the floor are for workbenches' potential location(s).

This would do you for almost any long term needs, and additional wiring will be minimal.


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## Susquatch (Nov 9, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> My view is this for almost exactly the same price, you can install a 20A breaker, 2A plugs - the 12 Ga wire is more expensive, but I found out that I'd prefer 20A plugs instead of 15A.  This is your wiring for 20 years, not just for the near future.  I've burnt out 3 cheap 15A duplex receptacles over the years.  I hate to fix my electrics once in place.
> 
> If I did it over:
> 
> ...



My kinda thinking @Dabbler! 

Hey @Perry, I especially love @Dabbler 's ceiling outlet thoughts! Nothing beats a cord drop over cords on the floor for equipment located away from the walls. You can always put a cord relief hook (or several for a cord run) in later. I wish I had that! 

And don't forget an outlet for the future overhead door opener!

I'd add another stove outlet at the front so you can weld or whatever on the driveway.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 9, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I'd add another stove outlet at the front so you can weld or whatever on the driveway.


I have one of those, but I find I use my 75 foot welding extension cable more.

I should add that I have a laneway at back, so I don't have a lane facing outdoor receptacle.  I do have a yard one toward my house, however.  Now's the time to install those as well!


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## PeterT (Nov 9, 2021)

If your ceiling is open to the extent you are considering running in some ceiling outlets, I would do it now. Because crawling into the roof wedge of a finished attic to do wiring work is a PITA. You can use ceiling outlets for  impromptu lights or whatever. Often its a shorter length & may not interfere with cabinets shelves or more plug-ins down below. Typical use as others mentioned - garage door openers, ceiling mount heaters, fans... things like that. Sorry I don't know any of the code implications. Also a switch/light in the attic area can sure make life easier if you are storing seasonal stuff up there. Beats crawling around with a flashlight in your mouth or miners headlamp.


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## Tom O (Nov 9, 2021)

I’ll never have a door opener having a detached garage at the back I’d worry about the buttons getting pressed or young ones playing with the buttons And if I put a outlet to the back alley I’d have a off switch in the garage like I have for the two led lights next to the garage door.


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## Perry (Nov 10, 2021)

Well inspection day came and went yesterday. Only one finding. Ground required between main mast and data mast.  

Wednesday the 17th is Enmax switch over and the electricians should finish up.  The gas and furnace install should also be completed on the same day.   Getting closer.   Slow and steady. 


I like the idea of the ceiling outlets.  This will happen.  I already have the two for the garage door openers outlets on the ceiling, but there will be three more on a 20 amp circuit now.  


My original Nema14-50 plug (240V 50 amp) had me figuring that I need to use 6 gauge wire.  The electrician mentioned I only needed 8 gauge.  While talking to the inspector he mentioned the 8 gauge is only rated at 55 amps and I would need 6 gauge.  He also stated to be careful when purchasing the 6 gauge. He said a lot of the stuff that goes on sale is only rated at 60C.  (Black)    I need to look the for the 6 gauge rated at 75C  (White).   Does this sound  correct?


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 10, 2021)

Perry said:


> Does this sound correct?



First - it doesn't matter.  Always do what the inspector recommends.  He can legally come back later and fail you.  It happened only once in rumour, for a colleague of my former electrician friend.  Very rare.

Second.  It won't hurt to be 6 gauge.  More money by the foot, but better.  I think my 50 A is 8 gauge 75C, but I can check if you wish.  It is not against code to be one wire size bigger.

What was the run length, because this matters.  for a long run it is always recommended to go up one gauge size, but I don't have a copy of the CEC handy so I cannot tell what that run length is.

For electrical I go for the best I can afford so I'm pretty careful about sales.  The black coated 60C cable is meant for going in hostile environments (well in the days I did a lot of wiring).


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## Perry (Nov 10, 2021)

Thank you  Dabbler.     I figured if the inspector recommendeds 6 gauge I better stick to that even if the electrician told me I was ok with 8 gauge.  The white vs black was something I had no idea about. 

The inspector also mentioned I could run a catwalk (plank along the attic joists) in the attic and run my cable along side of it.  The only thing I seen for the attic runs was it had to be in an area of less then 1m of head space.  This was a question I came up with when reading not to drill thru the joists. 

The panel and the 240V 50 plug are on opposite walls.    24X24 garage    So maybe 35' , up over and down.


On a side note I was offered a 240V  compressor and sandblaster a couple weeks ago. I turned it down.   The same gentleman now offered me the wiring that was installed for this unit.  Not sure of the ratings on it, but there might be some cost saving here.    Waiting for more details.


The second inspection was the same inspector as the first.   Do they normally send the same inspector out until the permit is closed?


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## Susquatch (Nov 11, 2021)

Perry said:


> He also stated to be careful when purchasing the 6 gauge. He said a lot of the stuff that goes on sale is only rated at 60C. (Black) I need to look the for the 6 gauge rated at 75C (White). Does this sound correct?



Yes. The 50A outlets can be used for stoves and dryers that have 75C terminations. So the code requires 75C wire too. I'm a bit surprised that the inspector knew this. He is a sharp cookie. 

I like @Dabbler 's advice - always do what the inspector wants. I like to remember that he is really there to protect you from yourself and shoddy electricians - lots of them around.


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## Dabbler (Nov 11, 2021)

It if very unusual for the inspection to be handed off.  you will have the same guy until you get approved.


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## Perry (Nov 11, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> shoddy electricians


and shoddy amatuers like myself!


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## Perry (Nov 14, 2021)

This has been dragging on.     This should be the final week. Wednesday Enmax and contractors should be here together.  I'm sure they were waiting for the weather to get cold.  Nobody likes to work when it's warm outside.  

New question for you electrical types.

I have a few boxes mounted exterior for outdoor lighting on the garage.  When talking  to the inspector I had asked him if there was a height restriction for the light required outside the  entrance (man) door.  He said no and then went on to say......"don't forget that the box can not be used as a junction.  Only wires into it for the light."   This has me researching with no answers.

Do the wires have to terminate at this box?  Last one in the run?    All the other boxes will have to be the last in the run?   I'm sure I missed something  here.

P.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 14, 2021)

Your weatherproof box mounts on the outside or inside, depending on the design, and it must only have the connections for the light (or in other cases the plug).  If you need to junction, you need to have an inside octagonal junction (accessible) on the inside to distribute the power to other external boxes..


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## Susquatch (Nov 14, 2021)

You have me on that one @Dabbler !  That's a new one on me. I've never heard of that before. I have all kinds of lights outside that are in groups all wired together and mounted on junction boxes. An interior junction box for each one outside make no sense as junction boxes must never be buried. What if it was drywalled? 

The only thing I can think of is a concern for corrosion. But seriously - one circuit per outside light? I can't see this one.

I'll check the Canadian code tomorrow


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## Susquatch (Nov 14, 2021)

Could they mean "no pigtails"? That might make sense. All the junctions could be on the device (light fixture) instead of pigtails.


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## YYCHM (Nov 14, 2021)

GFCI Issue?


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## Perry (Nov 14, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> Your weatherproof box mounts on the outside or inside, depending on the design, and it must only have the connections for the light (or in other cases the plug).  If you need to junction, you need to have an inside octagonal junction (accessible) on the inside to distribute the power to other external boxes..



A separate octagonal junction?    If I'm reading this correctly,  another separate box with my junctions in it.  Then feed my wire to the light mounting box?


The front of the garage has three boxes.  One between the two doors and one on either side.     So I would feed into a junction box.  Split my three feeds.  One to each light box.   Terminating each feed in each light fixture.


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## Susquatch (Nov 14, 2021)

Perry said:


> A separate octagonal junction?    If I'm reading this correctly,  another separate box with my junctions in it.  Then feed my wire to the light mounting box?
> 
> 
> The front of the garage has three boxes.  One between the two doors and one on either side.     So I would feed into a junction box.  Split my three feeds.  One to each light box.   Terminating each feed in each light fixture.



That's the way I read @Dabbler s suggestion. 

But I'd be starting a debate with whoever wrote that code. Unless they accept the no pigtails version I suggested earlier. 

That said, pigtails are actually a requirement for interior wiring. Electricians frequently ignore this and use the device terminals instead. But it's there to try to prevent a problem with a half live circuit and most inspector's will catch it.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 14, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> What if it was drywalled?


You are not allowed to bury an octagonal (junction) box so it is inaccessible.

One New years eve, hours before 40 people were to arrive I lost all power in my living room/dining/kitchen area.  It took 45 minutes and a signal tracer to find an Oct box that was full of drywall mud, and a fried connection.  We finished the fix minutes before the first guests were to arrive. 

When I had my garage inspected and the inspector said the same thing.  (Alberta weirdness?)

I had to comply with this rule to get my wiring passed in Calgary.  Since I only have 2 outside boxes, one light, and one plug on separate circuits, it wasn't a problem for me.  He mentioned it if I ever was to put a second light on the outside, then I'd have to use an inside junction box.  I don't know why, but I wish I did.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 14, 2021)

I should add that whenever I get an inspection I always comply no matter what they say, no matter how weird it sounds....


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## Perry (Nov 15, 2021)

Ok, still up researching this.   Re reading the posts here and maybe I'm overthinking this.....

but this line from Dabbler has me wondering...

"Your weatherproof box mounts on the outside or inside"

I installed regular octagonal boxes from the inside prior to the stucco going on so they would be flush after the stucco was complete.   My understanding is the outdoor light fixtures sit up against this with a seal and that is all that would be required.   Do I need a special box in these locations?   Weather proof? 
(Still easy to change at this point)


Not finding any thing online or in my Electrical Code Simplified House Wiring Guide by PS KNIGHT 2021.


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## Hacker (Nov 15, 2021)

I believe the code is you cannot use that box as a junction box for other circuits. (ie running 14/3 into the box and using one for the light(s) and and the other to tap off and feed exterior plugs. You can run more exterior lights off that switch/circuit.)


----------



## Susquatch (Nov 15, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> You are not allowed to bury an octagonal (junction) box so it is inaccessible.



Yup, that's the case nationwide. The reason is simple. Bad connections create heat. Many Electrical Fires start at a bad connection. If that connection is inside a wall nobody sees the smoke until its too late.



Dabbler said:


> One New years eve, hours before 40 people were to arrive I lost all power in my living room



Ouch. Bet your boss was royally pissed! Also betting it was all your fault no matter what really happened!



Dabbler said:


> I should add that whenever I get an inspection I always comply no matter what they say, no matter how weird it sounds....



Yup, arguing with the inspector is like shooting yourself in the foot.

But as I said in my last post, I'd sure like to talk to the folks who wrote that into the code. FWIW, I looked through the national code last night and couldn't find any reference to it. So last night I set my mind to why "might" it be code?  The only thing I could come up with is *extra connections*.

Four more (three for the hot pigtail and one for the extra neutral) than otherwise - all in a location where nobody would ever see or smell smoke.

The other connections thing that crept into my dreams last night was the extreme temperature cycling you guys get in Alberta. Temperature cycles could stress and loosen connections over time. So again, it's in everyone's best interest to minimize the number of connections. Perhaps that kind of thinking made it into the code.

But wow, talk about extra wiring! My house has 12 exterior lights (mostly pot lights) on the front of the house all controlled from one switch at the front door and 10 lights at the back of the house all controlled from two 3-way switches at both back doors. You would practically need a breaker box to distribute all those connections if you are not allowed to daisy chain them. You sure are not doing in in a standard junction box!



Perry said:


> Do I need a special box in these locations? Weather proof?



So this probably (I have no Alberta expertise) depends on where it is outside. If it's in the soffit, it isn't needed. If it's on the wall (as you said it was) it should be weatherproof. Frankly, I would do weatherproof no matter where it is.



Hacker said:


> I believe the code is you cannot use that box as a junction box for other circuits. (ie running 14/3 into the box and using one for the light(s) and and the other to tap off and feed exterior plugs. You can run more exterior lights off that switch/circuit.)



Although I agree that this makes sense, I'd want to confirm that with the inspector himself.


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## Johnwa (Nov 15, 2021)

The restriction applies when you use a shallow box that fastens on the outside of the exterior sheeting for your light.  There’s only room for the one set of wires.   I don’t know if it applies if you use a full depth box or whether that depends on the inspector.  My 1973 house has full depth boxes and pigtails. I assume it passed inspection back then but times change.  There’s also not a gasket to be found.


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## Dabbler (Nov 15, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> The restriction applies when you use a shallow box that fastens on the outside of the exterior sheeting for your light.



I was just about to add the same when John Wa piped in (Thanks BTW)...  

To clarify: that there are 2 types of mountings for external weatherproof lights:  one that fastens to an existing octagonal box as per Perry's post #147, and totally enclosed and sealed boxes that mount entirely on the outside of the building.  The code for installing each of _*was* _different.  that's where it gets confusing and a little weird.  

The totally enclosed boxes that mount on the FRONT of the stucco or siding cannot contain anything other than a termination. no pigtails, no marettes, nothing.  The ones that use an existing inside octagonal box and mount on top *used* to allow the normal number of connections (I think 6, it was a long time ago) BUT that was deprecated and now for new installations they are treated the same as flush mount.

My only explanation is to remove the confusion as to the two types of boxes.  Who know for sure?  I know some inspectors don't care about the extra connections but some now do.


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## Perry (Nov 15, 2021)

Something Johnwa said sparked a neuron.   What type of boxes do I actually have installed? 

I physically went and checked, because apparently I can no longer trust my memory. 






This photo answers everything.    I'm sorry.  I would have bet my life savings these where regular 4" boxes 1.5" deep.   I installed these 5 years ago, but I still have the memory that I had cut through the sheathing to install them from the inside.  ( I claim insanity for my defense.)


Ok, thank you for the help. Sorry for wasting your time.  Let the flaming and roasting begin.


----------



## Perry (Nov 15, 2021)




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## Perry (Nov 17, 2021)

Electrical finished.    Final inspection tomorrow.   Furnace and gas complete.  Final inspection on Monday.  

It was a little cool at 07:30 this morning, but the sunny day took the chill off pretty fast.    I think I can say we beat the snow.  

Interesting part of the switch over.  Enmax reused the feeder from the pole . Disconnected at the house.  Shortened. and re attached at garage.  I figured they would have ran a larger cable.  

Tomorrow I have Shaw coming in to deal with their connection.  It will be going to the new data mast on the garage and then into the house.  

What I forgot was there is still aTelus line.  Not sure if I should get them to run a new one into the house.  I don't have a house phone.  That was disconnected years ago.

Furnace was running and blowing heat today.  I won't be able to use it until final gas inspection is done.  

Looks like I'm almost ready to start wiring the garage part of the project.


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2021)

Sitting here waiting for the gas inspector.    Decided to try and source all my supplies.    Ran into a problem with the NMD90 6/3 wire.

There is none to be found.   Anyone here have an idea on where I might look.

I'm looking for 10 meters of NMD90 6/3 with a ground.

Thank you.


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## Susquatch (Nov 22, 2021)

Perry said:


> Sitting here waiting for the gas inspector.    Decided to try and source all my supplies.    Ran into a problem with the NMD90 6/3 wire.
> 
> There is none to be found.   Anyone here have an idea on where I might look.
> 
> ...


Lowe's has it. They will sell online. 



			https://www.lowes.ca/product/non-metallic-jacket-wire-by-the-metre/southwire-6-3-indoor-non-metallic-jacket-wire-by-the-metre-129261
		


Do you have an electrical jobber outfit there?


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## RobinHood (Nov 22, 2021)

Try Westburne Electric or EECOL Electric here in Calgary.


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 22, 2021)

+1 EECOL


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2021)

Lowe's shows you can order online, but if  check availability is shows 0 Canada wide.  I gave them a call and they said it is discontinued.

Westburne is also out of stock. Joking he said should be in stock by 2025.

I will try EECOL tomorrow.  Thank you for the suggestions.


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## Brent H (Nov 22, 2021)

@Perry - worst case let me know by Thursday and I can try to get you 10 meters here in Ontario and truck it to Calgary for the 28/29th.


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2021)

Brent, that would be ideal.   I will let you know before Thursday.    

My guess is it wont't be easy to find out east either.  I have checked the HomeDepot site coast to coast and the Rona/Lowes.


----------



## Brent H (Nov 22, 2021)

@Perry : my son shops at most of the major suppliers in Barrie.  I will see what can be done.  I have some 6/3 but not 10 meters - I would need to check at home Wednesday.  I believe I have a length of 6/3 but it is marine cable - flexible like an extension cord.....Hmmmm

I will get my son to inquire - If it is at another place we can track it down.  PM me your phone number incase I find something


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2021)

Brent, PM sent off. Thank you.


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## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2021)

What's so special about NMD90 6/3 with a ground?


----------



## Brent H (Nov 22, 2021)

@YYCHM - typically nothing - but I guess if it is sold out everywhere, it makes it hard to hook up power.


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## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @YYCHM - typically nothing - but I guess if it is sold out everywhere, it makes it hard to hook up power.



Every one appears to be out of stock and waiting.  My Ford Fiesta sat at the Dealership waiting on a part for over a month.  We recently had to replace our washer and dryer and 50% of the store display machines were labeled NO ETA.


----------



## Perry (Nov 22, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> What's so special about NMD90 6/3 with a ground?




It's only special because I need it.   lol.   I should have started purchasing my supplies in September instead of waiting on the contractor to finish their part of the job.   I didn't realize the "shortage of materials" issue was so bad.      

My garage electrical work was on hold for materials.  They even used a larger panel then they had planned for in my garage so they could complete the job.

Even before they started my job they called me to tell me they had to increase their estimate by 10%.


This 6/3 wire will be used to wire in a Nema14-50 plug (240V 50amp).   Hopefully future proofing my garage if an EV ever comes into my life.   In reality I don't need it right now but everything is open, I'll be working under a proper permit......now is the time to install it.


The plan was to install the plug on the far wall.  I even changed that to reduce the number of feet I required.   Moving it to the end wall in the center of the garage will reduce the length and give the option of charging a car in either parking location. 



Still trying to layout everything to hopefully be happy in the future with my decisions.  


One thing that I have finalized on is the lighting.   I'm planning on 6 single ceiling lamp bases.   With the new LED bulbs that are coming out, it is very easy to get a 10000 lumen screw in bulb.  The life expectancy is better then a LED (flourescent) fixture type layout.  As technology improves, unscrewing and screwing in a new bulb is simple.   Presently the prices seem very reasonable.       My other thought is if I install the ceiling bases with the pull switch on them, I can turn off certain areas I am not using.  (They will all still be wired to a single on/off switch).


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## Susquatch (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> It's only special because I need it.   lol.   I should have started purchasing my supplies in September instead of waiting on the contractor to finish their part of the job.   I didn't realize the "shortage of materials" issue was so bad.
> 
> My garage electrical work was on hold for materials.  They even used a larger panel then they had planned for in my garage so they could complete the job.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have done a great job of planning. 

Personally, unless you are filthy rich, I doubt there is really an EV in your future, but if there is, you will be ready for it!

The only thing you said that I would do different relates to your lights. I like the idea of individual pull cords for sectioning off/on work areas. But I wouldn't run them off of just one switch. I'd run two switches. That way if one breaker or switch goes, you can still find your way to the box or to the house. As I said earlier, a battery powered trouble light that comes on when the line power goes off is also a good idea. A shop/garage is typically not a good place to be stumbling around in the dark.


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## Hacker (Nov 23, 2021)

I would have a look on Kijiji or Facebook Market Place. I buy all my larger sized wire there as they are trying to get rid of end cuts. Usually get it for 1/2 the price


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## RobinHood (Nov 23, 2021)

How about using some AC6/3 or even Tech90 6/3?

Another thing you could do is run 3 #6 leads & a ground in a conduit.

Any of these options will allow you to continue your project (if they have the material).


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## Hacker (Nov 23, 2021)

The other option would be to install conduit and use RW90 or just install the conduit and pull it in later.


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

@Susquatch 
Oh, I'm not a big fan of the EV's.  I don't think it has been thought thru 100% yet.  Green my butt.  lol.   The problem is we will be forced to follow the master plan whether we like it or not. 

Reading online I think the number is $200/Kw of battery size is the estimate to replace the battery in one of the machines.   A Nissan Leaf should cost around $5000-6000 dollars.  A Canadian posted online they wanted $15000 to replace the battery in his 2013 model.    This is a disposable car at that price.

A green friend of mine tells me "but there is no maintenance on a EV so the cost averages out".  Most of us here are smart enough to realize just because the motor is electric does not mean the maintenance goes away.   

Good article here is you are bored.








						Costs of Electric Car Battery Replacement
					

When it comes to electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, many shoppers wonder how long it will be until they have to replace their battery. Then what will it cost to replace that battery?




					www.recurrentauto.com
				




@Hacker, I've been searching.   Already posted a want ad on Kijiji. 


@Hacker and @RobinHood   I'm pretty green in the electrical area.  I would need to read up a little more on what I'm allowed.  I did figure running a conduit might be an option.     I'm guessing I can drop down to the #8 size because the wires are separate in the conduit?


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

Just checked with EECOL in Calgary.  0 Stock of the 6/3 NMD90.


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## Brent H (Nov 23, 2021)

@Perry : I have #2 son looking for you in town  - he will get back to me with availability and price


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

Thank you Brent.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> @Susquatch
> Oh, I'm not a big fan of the EV's.  I don't think it has been thought thru 100% yet.  Green my butt.  lol.   The problem is we will be forced to follow the master plan whether we like it or not.
> 
> Reading online I think the number is $200/Kw of battery size is the estimate to replace the battery in one of the machines.   A Nissan Leaf should cost around $5000-6000 dollars.  A Canadian posted online they wanted $15000 to replace the battery in his 2013 model.    This is a disposable car at that price.
> ...


Lots of common sense in your post Perry. I too am a skeptic, but willing to change—I just don't want to be an early adopter. That's not to say I don't think it is a great idea and clearly the future. But we are kidding ourselves if we think this will stop or even stall climate change. Nor is this industry carbon neutral. The bigger issue is how do you travel and stop to juice up? I guess I hang with the wrong crowd, but I still don't see public charging stations in my travels yet.

Kind of thinking the business to get into is buy a big F550, strap two massive generators on it, and offer mobile recharging services to guys who get stranded between charging stations. Image the irony of a couple of generators belching fumes charging a Tesla halfway between Calgary and Banff.


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## Johnwa (Nov 23, 2021)

The people in Vancouver with electric cars are likely smiling right now!  The Tesla battery is supposed to be good for 300 to 500 thousand miles.  Their warranty isn’t for that though.


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> Lots of common sense in your post Perry. I too am a skeptic, but willing to change—I just don't want to be an early adopter. That's not to say I don't think it is a great idea and clearly the future. But we are kidding ourselves if we think this will stop or even stall climate change. Nor is this industry carbon neutral. The bigger issue is how do you travel and stop to juice up? I guess I hang with the wrong crowd, but I still don't see public charging stations in my travels yet.
> 
> Kind of thinking the business to get into is buy a big F550, strap two massive generators on it, and offer mobile recharging services to guys who get stranded between charging stations. Image the irony of a couple of generators belching fumes charging a Tesla halfway between Calgary and Banff.


Definitely not carbon neutral or green.   In the old days when people were homesteading this country, what did they do with their trash?  They threw it in a coulee or down a river bank.   They never left it on the fields or in their yards.  Out of sight out of mind.   Nothing has changed.  Everyone complains about the pollution China (or basically any other slave world country) creates, but this is our pollution.  Out of sight out of mind.  These EV's sound good but what we don't see is the problem.  A lot of this problem is being hidden from us in other countries.

Serious about climate change?  Stop population growth.   Population neutral.  The carbon rebate rewards larger families.  Who is going to have a bigger carbon foot print?  

Come up with real alternate ideas.  Do we need the size of car we presently use?  What if cities designated some major roads (North-south, East-west type corridors) to be used only by alternative type vehicles.  When I say alternative I mean, electric bikes, maybe electric type/size golf carts, small energy efficient vehicles that wouldn't survive well in a crash with regular vehicles.      Most people don't need the speed and size of a conventional vehicle for the small trips around a city.  I can see in Canada where a small vehicle with an enclosed heated cab that could do maybe 30 mph would be more then sufficient in a city setting.      Ride share vehicles like Car2go or even the E-scooters are a good idea. There has to other ideas that would even be better then my example.


Sorry for the rant.....touchy subject for me.    


I though about the portable generator idea also.  You know there will be a need for it.   My guess is you will be charging people just a couple kms from their home.  The car use to make the trip but as the battery slowly deteriorates away you get less and less range.    Everything is great when it's new.


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> The people in Vancouver with electric cars are likely smiling right now!  The Tesla battery is supposed to be good for 300 to 500 thousand miles.  Their warranty isn’t for that tough.


I'm sure they are.   With their gas prices they were probably smiling before.    

I think presently they have a 30L ration on fuel.     A smaller vehicle would do ok on this.   My Jeep Grand Cherokee on the other hand, not so well.

My cell phone battery has lots of life left in it.  I can only use it 10 minutes before it needs a recharge, but it has years of use left in it.  lol.  There is a point where that Tesla battery will just become a pain if you do not replace it.

The article I posted above has mentions $20000 for a Tesla S battery replacement.  I think that is in US dollars.

Hopefully a third party starts producing replacement batteries for these vehicles at a much cheaper price otherwise there will be a large market of very cheap used EV's laying around.


----------



## CalgaryPT (Nov 23, 2021)

Beaten to the punch again: https://blinkcharging.com/products/mobile-charger/?locale=en


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## Dabbler (Nov 23, 2021)

Before you guys get the wrong idea - I agree with just about everything above.

However:  buying a small car, like a Prius or Leaf, has slightly less impact than buying a F250, etc.  All choices can be done on 'doing better' approach - the reason why this discussion gets polarized is that the matter is probably more urgent then that *average* person believes.

My friend bought a 2003 Prius with a 'bad' battery.  He removed the battery, disassembled it and replaced 2 dead metal hydride cells, and now drives it very day, getting about 40 miles per gallon in the city.  I know - tiny impact, but he's trying...

I try to use my more economical Mazda instead of my gas-guzzling GMC truck for everything I can, including buying lumber, as it costs me less, and i have a little better impact on everything else.

I'd be happy with any EV if I could afford it, AND I could park it where it wouldn't ruin the battery AND, AND, etc. - The recyclability of the batteries concerns me, and a few other details. 

I'm trying to be optimistic that they will refine this stuff and get it right.


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## Hacker (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> @Susquatch
> Oh, I'm not a big fan of the EV's.  I don't think it has been thought thru 100% yet.  Green my butt.  lol.   The problem is we will be forced to follow the master plan whether we like it or not.
> 
> Reading online I think the number is $200/Kw of battery size is the estimate to replace the battery in one of the machines.   A Nissan Leaf should cost around $5000-6000 dollars.  A Canadian posted online they wanted $15000 to replace the battery in his 2013 model.    This is a disposable car at that price.
> ...


#8 is good for 55A but there are some factors that have to be considered in regards to the conduit and the distance so it would be best to consult with an electrician or electrical inspector. If you are sitting on the fence on this it may be more cost effective to just install the conduit and ensure there is a space for the breaker and install if and when it is needed. Just make sure the conduit is large enough for the wire.


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## Susquatch (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> Sorry for the rant.....touchy subject for me.



I'm personally quite happy to read other people's rant on this issue. Saves me from the need to rant at that idiot who stares back at me in the mirror everyday. Nuff said.


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## Chicken lights (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> Definitely not carbon neutral or green.   In the old days when people were homesteading this country, what did they do with their trash?  They threw it in a coulee or down a river bank.   They never left it on the fields or in their yards.  Out of sight out of mind.   Nothing has changed.  Everyone complains about the pollution China (or basically any other slave world country) creates, but this is our pollution.  Out of sight out of mind.  These EV's sound good but what we don't see is the problem.  A lot of this problem is being hidden from us in other countries.
> 
> Serious about climate change?  Stop population growth.   Population neutral.  The carbon rebate rewards larger families.  Who is going to have a bigger carbon foot print?
> 
> ...


Pretty sure I’ve shared this story- Sunday afternoon hooked the big horse to the trailer to go to work. Moved in front of my shop checked fluids and what not, let it warm up. This guy with a POS EV walked up the drive wondered if I could give him a push. He wanted me to move my pickup behind his POS, sit on my bumper, and use his legs as a shock absorber to push the car up the drive. After 20 minutes of this, his hands were cold, his legs were tired and we’d made it 75 feet. I asked if he seriously didn’t have anything to pull it from the front. He replied he had a tow hook that screws in 



So back to the shop, grabbed a chain, spun the tow hook in, yanked him up to the closest barn and he discovered his charge cable was too short and could he borrow an extension cord 



So I did some paperwork while the POS charged. As pointed out above, it’s ironic an EV prevented a diesel rig from going to work and had to be rescued by a smaller diesel powered pickup 

I’m sorry I’m just not sold on the idea, in Canada


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## Hacker (Nov 23, 2021)

I look at EVs today like the way it was when the personal computer came out. I remember my dad saying "what would you ever need one of those". Time, technology improvements and a different way of doing things and they will be part of our everyday lives. It is just a matter of time.
PS I was driving down the Henday Bypass today and a Tesla passed me and his licence plate read OIL LOL. I sure had a good LOL over that, the guy had large ones driving around Edmonton with that plate.


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## Darren (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm a tech at a Kia dealership. We have a bunch of hybrids, EV's and PHEV's out there that we service. Very few issues with them. We've changed one battery on an older car, which i believe was covered by the factory extended warranty. I drove a new Niro EV the other day, and was quite impressed with how hard it pulls.  In a small city like Thunder Bay, an EV makes a lot of sense. A PHEV will never leave you stranded though.

The new Kia EV6 GT is going to be fun: 

Later in 2022 we'll see the fastest, most powerful Kia in history in the form of the 576-hp, 546-lb-ft dual-motor EV6 GT, said to be good for hitting 60 mph in 3.5 seconds en route to a top speed of 162 mph.


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 23, 2021)

Just load one of those portable blink chargers and a 5 gallon can of gas in your E car and your set for a short trip.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 23, 2021)

Everyone in this thread, myself included, is destined to be mocked by our kids and grandkids for our resistance to change. It’s inevitable. 

That being said, the problem isn't carbon emissions; that’s just a symptom.  It’s too many darn people on this planet. 

I feel  lucky to be able to afford metal just to play around with in my shop as a hobby. But recognize at some point a resource like this could be reserved for the rich as well. Point is times change. As dramatic as we think it is, it pales in comparison to what happened during the Victorian era, which (coincidentally) is when the first electric car was invented. Imagine a world that skipped the internal combustion engine and went to electric Hanson Cabs.


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## YotaBota (Nov 23, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> This guy with a POS EV


So anyone who is stupid enough to let their vehicle run out of fuel, the vehicle is the POS?


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## Perry (Nov 23, 2021)

Maybe a vehicle design with a quick change battery would be a better approach.   Standardize the battery sizes.....Like an A cell , C cell, etc.    They could be leased out to owners and changed out on the road if required for a fast top up.  That way the batteries could be maintained by a central authority and recycled/replaced as required.

Down the line if a better power source is created then it could be build into the standard battery size and used in the existing vehicles.

If I get the wire I need to install this plug in , maybe I should list my garage as an emergency charging station for those caught in a bind.


----------



## Darren (Nov 23, 2021)

Perry said:


> Maybe a vehicle design with a quick change battery would be a better approach.   Standardize the battery sizes.....Like an A cell , C cell, etc.    They could be leased out to owners and changed out on the road if required for a fast top up.  That way the batteries could be maintained by a central authority and recycled/replaced as required.
> 
> Down the line if a better power source is created then it could be build into the standard battery size and used in the existing vehicles.
> 
> If I get the wire I need to install this plug in , maybe I should list my garage as an emergency charging station for those caught in a bind.


They have fast charging station that will fully charge a battery in 20 minutes. If you just need to go 100 km's more before you get home or wherever, it might only take 5 minutes

The batteries are extremely heavy. Like 1000lbs. Not something you want to be changing out.


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## YYCHM (Nov 23, 2021)

dfloen said:


> If you just need to go 100 km's more before you get home or wherever, it might only take 5 minutes



Do the charge gauges in those things display range?  Purchase re-charges by the coulomb?


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## YotaBota (Nov 23, 2021)

There is a bar guage that shows how much charge is in the battery and the GOM - "GuessOMeter" that guesstimates the range remaining in kms or miles.


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## Tom O (Nov 23, 2021)

Remember when propane was going to save us but you couldn’t use a parkade and had to shut off the valve on the ferry? Then diesel was the thing! After batteries I’m thinking steam or maybe rubber band. Lol


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## YotaBota (Nov 23, 2021)

Maybe a horse? While it recharges you go for a beer at the saloon and use it's exhaust to help grow the veggies.


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## CalgaryPT (Nov 24, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> Maybe a horse? While it recharges you go for a beer at the saloon and use it's exhaust to help grow the veggies.


In the spirit of Fireball Tool that tests every hypothesis thoroughly I say we investigate this idea.

I volunteer for the beer drinking part.


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## Perry (Nov 25, 2021)

Ok there is no 6/3 NMD90 to be had.  My back up plan is what you gents had suggested, but I'm going to need a little guidance.


From what I understand I can run four 6 gauge conductors inside Sch40 PVC.

Is 3/4"  PVC large enough for 4 conductor fill?

Can the ground wire be bare or does it need to be insulated?

1" PVC is not that much more then 3/4".  Should I just install the 1" and give myself options for down the line?

I think I'm good on this one, but do rules 12-1108 and 12-942 .  4 - 90 degree bends max. in the PVC run?

The electric panel and the 240 plug are on two adjacent walls.    Can I run the conduit at 45 degree angle above the ceiling joists or is it better practice to run it parallel to the plug wall, turn 90 degrees and then run parallel to the panel wall?   Going with the joists and 90 degrees to the joists.  


Having never done this before this question may seem a little strange to those of you who have.  Does it matter which direction to assemble the conduit? There is female shaped end on the conduit so you can join the conduits together.   Should I be starting the run with the female fitting facing the meter and working toward my plug box? (I know that I will have to add a stub and a threaded end to attach to the electric panel or the box) I don't think it matters, but you never know.

Thank you in advance.


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## Dabbler (Nov 25, 2021)

Perry said:


> Is 3/4" PVC large enough for 4 conductor fill?


yes.



Perry said:


> Can the ground wire be bare or does it need to be insulated?


Bare, in my understanding is fine.


Perry said:


> 1" PVC is not that much more then 3/4". Should I just install the 1" and give myself options for down the line?


I pulled 2" conduit when I did mine. _ Future-proofing._


Perry said:


> direction to assemble the conduit?



My conduit was all glued, as per my Electrician's requirement.  The inspector didn't care what it was, it seemed at the time (27 yrs ago)

--- way back then they insisted I pull #4 NMD90 -INSIDE- the conduit.  I don't know why.  but that's what I have.


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## Darren (Nov 25, 2021)

definitely 2" conduit


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## Hacker (Nov 25, 2021)

Seeing how you already have some answers I will cover some of the other questions.


Perry said:


> The electric panel and the 240 plug are on two adjacent walls. Can I run the conduit at 45 degree angle above the ceiling joists or is it better practice to run it parallel to the plug wall, turn 90 degrees and then run parallel to the panel wall? Going with the joists and 90 degrees to the joists.


I don't believe there is anything in the code about that. From an appearance and professional look running parallel or perpendicular with the walls is preferred and using 90 or 2 - 45 degree sweeps. If you are oversizing the conduit then go with the 90's. It is a relatively short distance and there is lots of room in the conduit for the wires to go around the corners. 1 inch is fine and if the run is short nothing wrong with 2" but it is 3X the price of 1".


Perry said:


> Having never done this before this question may seem a little strange to those of you who have. Does it matter which direction to assemble the conduit? There is female shaped end on the conduit so you can join the conduits together. Should I be starting the run with the female fitting facing the meter and working toward my plug box? (I know that I will have to add a stub and a threaded end to attach to the electric panel or the box) I don't think it matters, but you never know.


No but we always started with the bell mouth (female) end going to the next box or load. It saves buying couplers as when you cut the Carlon you always have a splice for the next run.


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## Perry (Nov 26, 2021)

Hacker said:


> No but we always started with the bell mouth (female) end going to the next box or load. It saves buying couplers as when you cut the Carlon you always have a splice for the next run.



Electric Panel                                            Electrical Box
-----------
|               |
|               |  -----  >--------     >----------  []                
|               |
-----------

Like this?


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## Perry (Nov 26, 2021)

Sorry, one more question.......

This is from the NEC not the Canadian code...... but better to check now....

_Ambient temperature_ — PVC conduit isn’t permitted to be  installed if the ambient temperature exceeds 50°C (122°F) [Sec. 352.12(D)].

and

_Concealed_ — PVC conduit can be concealed within walls,  floors, or ceilings, directly buried or embedded in concrete in buildings of any  height [Sec. 352.10(A)].

I'm guessing that the Sche40 PVC is ok in the attic of the garage?   I could see it being pretty warm in there on a hot summer day.


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## Hacker (Nov 26, 2021)

Not sure about your diagram. Sorry I confused this, in your situation you wont have to be too concerned about this as you will have fittings on both ends, you will just start with the spigot or male end in a fitting connect it to the box/panel and proceed to the end of the run and installing a connector there and attaching it to the box/panel


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 26, 2021)

For my previous shop, I ran 2" conduit and #6 insulated (including green insulated ground).  All conduit glued, straight run, with the only bends being the riser out of the ground and the 90 into the building.   pulling #6 through 2" was pretty easy.


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## Perry (Nov 26, 2021)

Hacker said:


> Not sure about your diagram. Sorry I confused this, in your situation you wont have to be too concerned about this as you will have fittings on both ends, you will just start with the spigot or male end in a fitting connect it to the box/panel and proceed to the end of the run and installing a connector there and attaching it to the box/panel


Thank you.   Sorry that little text drawing got reformatted once I submitted the post.     Basically it showed the main panel on the left.  An electrical box on the right.   The bell mouth on the left side of conduits positioned between the two.       Apparently I'm no artist.


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## Susquatch (Nov 26, 2021)

Perry said:


> Thank you.   Sorry that little text drawing got reformatted once I submitted the post.     Basically it showed the main panel on the left.  An electrical box on the right.   The bell mouth on the left side of conduits positioned between the two.       Apparently I'm no artist.



Your drawing made absolutely perfect sense to me Perry!


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## Perry (Nov 26, 2021)

The rabbit hole goes deeper.   

My main panel in the garage is surface mounted.   The lack of 6/3 NMD90 has pushed me to run a PVC conduit for the heavier 50 amp circuit I would like to install.

The next question I came up with well getting this straight in my head.     I will run the conduit out the right side of the panel and go directly into a 90 degree heading upwards.   With the NMD90 I would have just gone up between the studs, drilled thru the top plate.  


What to do here?   I don't think I can flex the conduit in the stud space, plus that just doesn't seem right.  

Plywood up the wall to the ceiling above the panel and plywood the right side of the panel to the  ceiling.   Run everything on the surface.  Then build a cover box with quick release fasteners for easy access.   Button-fix https://button-fix.com/products   Interesting item.  There is a gent on youtube building some nice boxes to hide utilities.  





I think I will try to run most of my circuits out the right side of the panel. 


The panel is stuck between the door and the window.  Not the best location.  This is because of the clearance issue in the alley.  Needed the main mast to be as close to the peak of the roof on the yard side.  This stationed the meter outside next to the door and the panel of course ends up beside the door on the inside.


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## YYCHM (Nov 26, 2021)

Boy, I didn't realize how much work this endeavor would involve  Wife say's no garage, so I guess I won't get at chance to experience it


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## Perry (Nov 26, 2021)

Not super hard stuff to do, once you have a good plan.   I'm just trying to make sure I have a good approach and there is nothing better but to learn from someone that has gone thru the same process.  

The NMD90 would have made me lazy.....lol.  I would have just fed it between the studs.  Now I'm learning something.  Probably better access for down the line when I need to add/alter something.      I've tried to find photos online of how others have mounted surface mount panels in the garage, but nothing good .......yet.


The basement shop does have its pluses.    I have all of my stuff downstairs.  This will allow me to bring some of the larger stuff out to the garage and make some room.


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## Susquatch (Nov 27, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Boy, I didn't realize how much work this endeavor would involve  Wife say's no garage, so I guess I won't get at chance to experience it



I agree with Perry, it isn't the work. It's all the challenges! 

But from what I have seen so far, the end result will be something @Perry will be very proud of and well worth doing. 

I wish with all my heart that I could have helped design and install the wiring in my existing shop (and a few other things). I did it in my old shop and I loved the result. This one was already built when I bought it. 

Overall, I love the shop, but I don't like the electrical, the lights, the leaky roof, or the concrete floor. 

@Perry - did you check the farm supply places in your area for the 6-3. I saw piles of wiring at Peavy mart yesterday, but no 6-3.


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> @Perry - did you check the farm supply places in your area for the 6-3. I saw piles of wiring at Peavy mart yesterday, but no 6-3.


Yes, I did.   Peavy mart only seemed to have the smaller 14 and 12 gauge stuff.   Tried Home Hardware too.  They no longer have stores in Calgary.  They have stores in some of the smaller areas. I'm out to Canmore every couple days so I tried them with no luck.

I have kind of given up hope.   I'm planning the PVC route.  Stuck on the best method of routing the cables and the PVC from the panel.  It appears most setups use all conduit or all NMD90.  I'll be mixing the two.     Hard to find a few good photos of main electric panels to get ideas from.


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## Susquatch (Nov 27, 2021)

Perry said:


> Yes, I did.   Peavy mart only seemed to have the smaller 14 and 12 gauge stuff.   Tried Home Hardware too.  They no longer have stores in Calgary.  They have stores in some of the smaller areas. I'm out to Canmore every couple days so I tried them with no luck.
> 
> I have kind of given up hope.   I'm planning the PVC route.  Stuck on the best method of routing the cables and the PVC from the panel.  It appears most setups use all conduit or all NMD90.  I'll be mixing the two.     Hard to find a few good photos of main electric panels to get ideas from.


Did you try a Google "image" search? 

What is your timing on this? If I found some around here would you be interested? 

How is your stomach for the cost of 4 gauge?


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 27, 2021)

My last shop I ran conduit to the house (riser/lb) into a box on the east side of the house where I terminated (Joined)  the insulated lines to nmd 90 (#6) and ran another 60 feet to the panel on the west side

It passed inspection then (2002) but who knows what is good today .


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Did you try a Google "image" search?
> 
> What is your timing on this? If I found some around here would you be interested?
> 
> How is your stomach for the cost of 4 gauge?


I have searched.   Not finding any good ideas or photos.   You can see the photos in my post 207.   If I come out of the box at the bottom right with a PVC 90, normally that would be mounted on the surface.   If I use a few 45 degree bends I can joggle the PVC back into the wall cavity and then head up between the studs.  I have 2X6 walls but still leave very little room to clamp the PVC and then leave room for future 14 and 12 gauge runs to be secured.    You can see the large Tech cable already taking up one side of the cavity. (That feeds the 100 amp panel in the house).

Timing?   No rush, but I was hoping to get the permit last week and start on it.  I held off because I did not have a complete plan with out the 6/3 NMD90.

This week coming up I was planning on using the PVC .  Just got back from the Home Depot and they have everything I need to go the PVC route.
Just can not get my head around the feed from the panel to the ceiling area.  (Taking into account the other feeds will most likely have to come out the right side of the panel also. 

4 gauge would be hard to work with.  Cost is also not good.   This one Nema 14-50 plug is going to be approx $1000.   That is using the 6/3 NMD90. The 240V 50 GFCI breaker alone is $290.  Things have gotten to be expensive.    I don't even have a use for this plug currently.  (but if I don't install it......you know that goes...)

If you found 11 meters of 6/3 NMD90 I would need to figure out how to move it to Calgary, but it wouild make things a lot easier. Brent checked out east before he left with no joy. 


Sooner the electrical is done, the sooner I can move on to insulating.  No use having a furnace with no insulation.


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> My last shop I ran conduit to the house (riser/lb) into a box on the east side of the house where I terminated (Joined)  the insulated lines to nmd 90 (#6) and ran another 60 feet to the panel on the west side
> 
> It passed inspection then (2002) but who knows what is good today .


Sorry, my post probably confused you.  When I said "I'll be mixing the two."   I meant I will have NMD and PVC runs coming out of the same electrical panel.  

Usually they run NMD with a flush mounted panel and the cable in between the studs.  The surface mount panel setup tends to have the conduit runs.  (This is from my limited knowledge of searching the internet)


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## Susquatch (Nov 27, 2021)

Ok. I'm just trying to gauge how much effort on my end is warranted. If it would be for naught, I won't bother. I may make a quick call to my big supplier in Chatham. It's a small enough big place that I might get lucky. Shipping is still an issue though. 

Sorry I can't visualize your conduit conundrum.


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## Dabbler (Nov 27, 2021)

@Perry  -  I think we have our 'wires' crossed (pun intended )  You only need the conduit between the house beaker panel and the sub panel.  The rest can be done with lumex (th white stuff)  This should simplify all the things you need to do, as you can wire your plugs now, even before you get the 6ga run done.

$1000 for a plug?  Perhaps there has been some crosstalk here.  I was referring to a standard 50A stove plug (4 contact) for your welders - they cost between 20$ and 30$ each...


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Ok. I'm just trying to gauge how much effort on my end is warranted. If it would be for naught, I won't bother. I may make a quick call to my big supplier in Chatham. It's a small enough big place that I might get lucky. Shipping is still an issue though.
> 
> Sorry I can't visualize your conduit conundrum.


I would appreciate that.  You just never know. 

I purchased a Beck Spyder (replica of a Porsche 550  Spyder ) back in the day from Chatham.  Good memories.


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @Perry  -  I think we have our 'wires' crossed (pun intended )  You only need the conduit between the house beaker panel and the sub panel.  The rest can be done with lumex (th white stuff)  This should simplify all the things you need to do, as you can wire your plugs now, even before you get the 6ga run done.
> 
> $1000 for a plug?  Perhaps there has been some crosstalk here.  I was referring to a standard 50A stove plug (4 contact) for your welders - they cost between 20$ and 30$ each...



I'm referring to the complete  circuit run for just the 240V 50 amp branch. Just doing the math.  It will be more like $700 for the one branch.  For a car charger they do not recommend the cheaper Nema 14-50 sockets.  ( Some do not have full width contacts in them. )  Hubbell part # HBL9450A  or the Eaton/Cooper/Arrow HART 5754N is a better unit and they run around $100.  Cable is around $240.  Breaker $290.  Box and cover plate $30.  Plus hardware.   This is based on the NMD90 cable. 

The garage panel (200 main) and house (100  sub) are already finished and passed inspection.   The lumex (th white stuff)  AKA the NMD 90 6/3 is not availible anywhere in Canada.     My plan is to use 3/4" PVC from garage panel to the Nema 14-50 plug with RW90 conductors inside.


It's this conduit run I'm having my issues with.





PVC conduit will come out the right side and turn 90 degrees upward.  Do I joggle it with a couple 45's to get in in between the stud spacing?  Where do I clmap it to?  The 2X6 stud? If I do that I will not have a lot of room to secure my small circuit feeds. 





The Tech cable takes up a lot of the space in that cavity.  If this was a solid wall like in a basement you would just run it on the surface.  Should I plywood in that right side and run PVC and cables on the surface?


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## RobinHood (Nov 27, 2021)

Does your panel not have knock outs on the back? Could save you some grief with the conduit routing as you’d already be in the wall.


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## Perry (Nov 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Does your panel not have knock outs on the back? Could save you some grief with the conduit routing as you’d already be in the wall.


I'm not sure.   It's surface mounted on that plywood panel.  I would have to go pull the front cover off.


Edit.  No .  I have a photo of it with cover off.


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## Susquatch (Nov 28, 2021)

Perry said:


> Should I plywood in that right side and run PVC and cables on the surface?



Consider laying in a piece of plywood between the two joists such that the plywood is two inches from the back wall. Then all the wires including the big one can be mounted to the plywood and because they are two inches from either wall, they will still be protected from screws from the back and from the front to meet code. Clearly, you cannot run all of your wiring up the two studs and also maintain the two inch spacing.


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## Perry (Dec 6, 2021)

Just an update for you gentlemen.  

Family first motto cut into this project for a little bit.   My grandmother has not been feeling well and I've been helping her out.  The project was put on a standby.

Dabbler was nice enough to come out a few days ago and give me a few great ideas.  Took a look over my plan (and I'm sure he laughed).  Thank you for your time and knowledge.

I was able to purchase Tech90 6/3 (with a ground) for less then the cost of the NMD90 6/3 (if I was able to get it).

The Tech90 conductors are marked RED, Black and Blue.  The Blue will need to be remarked to white at each end where it is exposed.  White heat shrink will be my approach here.


I will use these connectors at each end.  






						ABB 1-1/4 inch Iberville Two Screw Fitting (Cast Aluminium Body and Clamp)
					






					www.gescan.com
				




I will strip the outer jacket and attach these directly to the aluminum casing, but I still think I require bonding lock nut.  

I'm guessing I would need some type of bonding lock nut (grounding bushing)  at the panel?  I don't think one would be required at the outlet box?


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2021)

The iberville clamps is what I use.


congrats in getting your wire!


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## Perry (Dec 6, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> The iberville clamps is what I use.
> 
> 
> congrats in getting your wire!


Do you use the grounding bushings also?






						ABB 1-1/4 inch Iberville Insulated Grounding Bushing (Aluminum)
					






					www.gescan.com
				




It makes sense to me to ground the inner grounding wire to the exterior casing  and the panel.


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2021)

I run a separate ground and ground the boxes at both ends.   I'm not a fan of using the shielding as the grounding leg.  No harm in having the ground on the shield as well


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2021)

So, you're a night owl as well?


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## Perry (Dec 6, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> So, you're a night owl as well?


I'm usually up late.    Only time I get to research my project lately.    Spent the last couple of days at the hospital helping my grandmother. 

My grandmother is 104.  Old age is starting to catch up with her.  She was in when I was digging the trench in Sept.- Oct. then back home.  Now something new has her back in again. At that age she is still doing pretty good.


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## Perry (Dec 6, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I run a separate ground and ground the boxes at both ends.   I'm not a fan of using the shielding as the grounding leg.  No harm in having the ground on the shield as well


The Tech90 has a separate ground in the casing with the three conductors.   The aluminum casing of the TECH90 makes me think the ground should have a positive contact point at the main panel with the casing and the internal ground wire.  Me overthinking the whole design process.   I do not know the code, but think it would be a requirement.   I made a few posts on an electrical forum.   Will see what they come back with.


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## Hacker (Dec 6, 2021)

The best way to think about this is that anything metal should be bonded. If the boxes you are using are metal, skin the PVC jacket back 4 to 5 cm so the connector is on the metal shield this bonds it to the box. Use the bushing if you are using plastic boxes.


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## Perry (Jan 4, 2022)

One of my favorite sayings is

"Life is the shit that happens between your plans."

My plans were to be a lot farther ahead in my project by this date.  The last couple months (and the holidays) were taking a big hit in my life.
This last month, basically bringing the work to a crawl if not a stand still.

Tuesday evening around 7:30 pm my grandmother passed away.  She was born in Poland on July 07, 1917.  104 years old.

She was a very independent lady. She lived on her own, did her yard work and garden.... (her way, if I was able to help it was under direct guidance) shopped, and enjoyed her life.   My grandfather had passed approx. 22 years ago. 


She had a bad case of 104.   End of August was the beginning of the small problems.   By October it was apparent plans were going to be needed to be made to assist her.  November was a case of Norwalk virus  (which myself and a few of her care worker aids were lucky to catch) which is a pretty big hit on someone that old.   She had also managed to get an infection in one of her legs which required I.V. antibiotics twice a day  (8:00am and 8:00 pm)at the emergency department. This required numerous trips.  (She lives approx. 100 kms away from me.) End of November she went to the hospital vomiting and not feeling well.   She improved a fair bit but was having a hard time talking because they had used a tube to keep her stomach cleared out and could only whisper. 

We were called into a meeting in the middle of December to meet with hospital workers and long term care people to figure out what her next step was in her life.  In previous discussions with her I told her I would support what ever she wanted.  If she wanted to go to a nursing home we could make that happen.  Stay home, we could hire staff for 24 hour live in care.    Well at the meeting the doctor brought up that she had requested MAID.   

She has been telling me for a couple of years now that 100 is too old.  She was still walking on her own, doing everything on her own...quality life.   But too old.

For those of you that do not know, MAID is medical assistance in dying. 

December 21st was agreed on and it was when she wanted to go.  She did not want to be lying in a bed unable to move, talk ,use the washroom, etc.
The doctors kind of dropped the ball.  Very poor communication with us.  The 20th we still didn't know what was happening.   Prior to Christmas they told us that one of the doctors involved would be on holidays until January and the date had been changed to the 6th.

Numerous times my grandmother had asked why they were taking so long.  

Over the holidays my grandmother had a stroke.  She was having a hard time swallowing, unable to speak, (she could understand me and would answer by nodding  her head) and basically bed ridden.  Sleeping most of the time.   This is not what she wanted.     The last couple of days have been hard as you could see the changes daily.   This evening I was talking with one of the nurses who was telling me she was sleeping peacefully.   Hung up and she called me back within 5 minutes to tell me that she had passed.

She was a very smart woman and knew this was coming.  She wanted to go out on her terms. I'm really glad she did not have to wait two more days.


Put a little more into this then I had intended.   Just though an update was in order.      I'm guessing you gents were enjoying the break from all of my "amatuer" questions.  


A friend of mine who heard my quote told me....." if you want to make god laugh.....tell him your plans" . 



Good night brothers.


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## Susquatch (Jan 4, 2022)

Thanks for that Perry. Sounds like your grandmother was a very special lady. It's nice to read personal things like that here from time to time. 



Perry said:


> A friend of mine who heard my quote told me....." if you want to make god laugh.....tell him your plans" .



Sounds just like my wife...... 

Hmmmm, that could explain a few of her other "powers"......


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## RobinHood (Jan 4, 2022)

My condolences Perry.

You had mentioned your grandmother a number of times during our conversations. One though and special lady for sure.

Rudy


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## David_R8 (Jan 4, 2022)

My condolences Perry. Your grandmother sounds like she was an pretty amazing lady!


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## Tom O (Jan 4, 2022)

My condolences saying goodbye is hard enough but them postponing her wishes was wrong in my books.


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## Dabbler (Jan 4, 2022)

I am so glad you honoured your relationship by being such a great grandson.  I'm sorry for your loss.  She sounds like she was a real firecracker.


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## Perry (Jan 4, 2022)

Perry said:


> Tuesday evening around 7:30 pm my grandmother passed away. She was born in Poland on July 07, 1917. 104 years old.


Apparently today is Tuesday.   It was yesterday,  Monday evening that she passed.

Thank you for all the kind words guys.   I hope everyone is keeping warm tonight.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 5, 2022)

Condolences on the passing of your grandmother.


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## Hacker (Jan 5, 2022)

Sorry to hear about your grandmother. She sounds like she was a wise person. Condolence to you and your family. 

 As for your questions I remember something my father would quote " The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds _counsel_ is _wise"

Take care and I will be following along with your project._


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## Perry (Jan 27, 2022)

Well, slowly getting back into the wiring.   All the wire is run.   Lots of wire, lots of money.  

So, I'm ready to start stripping the wire at the boxes.     I know there are two ways to wire in a receptacle at an electrical box.  If you have a downstream receptacle you can use pigtails on the hot and neutral and connect them to the receptacle or you can use the two hot screws and two neutral screws to connect the upstream feed to the receptacle and then connect the next down stream receptacle.  

Added a couple photos to clear up my poor wording.   













Any reason to use one over the other?   Searching the net seems to bring up mixed reasons and heated debates.    


And a photo of the spaghetti.


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## Brent H (Jan 27, 2022)

I have always used the pig tails for outlets that run off to other loads.  If you want to change or fix the outlet you don’t disconnect anything downstream. Likewise if you wanted to terminate the outlet.   The one thing I don’t like is the push in the back connection (unless you have no choice like a GFI in some cases)  but it’s all what you like.


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## Aliva (Jan 27, 2022)

The purpose of the connected terminals in the first pic are 1. allows you to connect to another receptacle with out splicing, 2 you can cut the bridge connector to create a split plug, so you can have 2 circuits on the same plug ( same current rating ). To me the fist pic is the preferred choice as there's not a lot of room in the box for splicing of wires and wire nuts.


----------



## Johnwa (Jan 27, 2022)

IIRC at one time in Alberta you had to use pigtails.  That isn’t the case anymore.  My preference is not to use a pigtail unless absolutely necessary.  They take up room and are another connection that can fail.


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 27, 2022)

+1 for pigtails, i got called out for it in an inspection 15 years ago, have always done so since.  I try to never use the 'push-in' connectors, I've seen them fail


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## Susquatch (Jan 27, 2022)

Well, I'm with @Brent H on this one. I would NEVER (repeat NEVER) tie the neutrals through a jumper on the outlet. Too easy for someone downstream to get hurt or cause a fire. 

If the code on this has changed, I am not aware of it. 

I prefer not to use those bridges for the hot wire either. But if someone wants to, I would not scream at them. I would simply say that's not what they are designed to do. 

The purpose of the bridges is to allow both outlet sockets to be used on the same pair of wires feeding the outlet. These tabs can be cut so that each of the two outlets can be fed separately (a so called split duplex) in a kitchen where individual loads are too high for a single circuit. They are not there to provide a convenient connection point. But yes, I know people do that and I know that electricians do it too. 

I also hate twist on connectors and almost exclusively use brass Marr connectors with screw on insulators. 

Yes, this can result in a packed receptacle box, but that's why the sell deep ones and shallow ones. The boxes are actually rated for the number of connections and wires inside them. Again, I think that has been forgotten with the passing of time. 

It's been 30 years since I was involved with the code though so maybe things have changed.


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## Susquatch (Jan 27, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> +1 for pigtails, i got called out for it in an inspection 15 years ago, have always done so since.  I try to never use the 'push-in' connectors, I've seen them fail


I hate those pushin connections for the same reason.


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## Hacker (Jan 27, 2022)

May as well throw my two cents in here. I agree with the others about the push-in connections on the back and don't use them.
I have used both methods and I think it is more important to ensure that the connection is tight. Using to second connection point on the plug allows you to visually inspect the connection. It also keeps the box from being crowded with wire and wire nuts. If a wire nut is used then make sure that the wire end is stripped to the proper length, the wires are twisted together with a pair of pliers and then install the wire nut to secure the wire ends. Use the method you are most comfortable with. Just make sure all insulation is stripped on the wires at the termination point and the connections are tight and you will not have any issues.


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## Perry (Jan 28, 2022)

Thank you guys.

I agree will all of you about the push in connections.   I am not a fan of those. 
I reached out to the Calgary electrical inspectors and this was their response.  

"When installing more than one wire on a receptacle it is advised to use the pigtail method."
A little confusing but I think you can't go wrong with the pigtail method.  


There are pros and cons to each method that I can see.   Happy to use either method, but more happy to pass the inspection on the first try.

Looks like I might get to work on this today.  Up early, temperatures looking good and no tasks  (yet) to interfere will my plans.  

Hope everyone has a great Friday.


----------



## SomeGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

Hacker said:


> May as well throw my two cents in here. I agree with the others about the push-in connections on the back and don't use them.
> I have used both methods and I think it is more important to ensure that the connection is tight. Using to second connection point on the plug allows you to visually inspect the connection. It also keeps the box from being crowded with wire and wire nuts. If a wire nut is used then make sure that the wire end is stripped to the proper length, the wires are twisted together with a pair of pliers and then install the wire nut to secure the wire ends. Use the method you are most comfortable with. Just make sure all insulation is stripped on the wires at the termination point and the connections are tight and you will not have any issues.



With wire nuts, I usually strip the wires a bit longer than needed, twist the ends tight with the linesman pliers, then snip the end. Gives a nice clean spiral of the wires and is easier than trying to fight to get them aligned.

Same technique doing an RJ45 before pushing it in the plug, go long and snip level.


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## Degen (Jan 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I hate those pushin connections for the same reason.


I had a house that had Al and it was done on all the outlets by the builder and passed inspection.  I found out when a wire broke and it arced whenever my wife flip a particular switch.  Replaced all the outlets correctly in the house (we where the 4th or 5th owners).

The latest trend is now using copper clad Aluminum for wiring in the USA (one of my suppliers is the manufacturer), not sure if its coming here or approved here yet but I can see it coming with the price of copper.


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## thestelster (Jan 28, 2022)

I think if you're doing your own electrical, like I did, that it would be prudent to have the Electrical Safety Code book, and follow it.  If you're doing a whole workshop, get a permit, do your own work, and get it inspected.  God forbid if there's a fire, what could happen, and wondering if the home insurance would cover it.  You and your family's safety is of the utmost importance.  My house has 100amp service, and routed 60amps to the garage/shop.


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## Dabbler (Jan 28, 2022)

I didn't want to contradict others here so I stayed quiet.  I've always used the pigtail method, and will continue to do so.  I feel it is safer, and easier to modify in the future.


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## Susquatch (Jan 28, 2022)

thestelster said:


> I think if you're doing your own electrical, like I did, that it would be prudent to have the Electrical Safety Code book, and follow it.  If you're doing a whole workshop, get a permit, do your own work, and get it inspected.  God forbid if there's a fire, what could happen, and wondering if the home insurance would cover it.  You and your family's safety is of the utmost importance.  My house has 100amp service, and routed 60amps to the garage/shop.



It's good that you posted the code itself as well as the simplified versions. The code is the Bible (this one for Ontario) and the simplified ones are easier to read but not the Bible. I wish the actual code was not so expensive. In my opinion, it should be free. 

Always best to do what the inspector says.


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## Dabbler (Jan 28, 2022)

It is helpful to have the code, with bookmarks on anything you might have questions about.  I've asked the inspector, and he's showed me the relevant section (and somtimes it isn't where you think it should be).

The inspector has the local authority to ask for something that is 'higher' than code, or clarify an out-of-code situation.  One time I wired 12 gauge on a 15A circuit, and he clarified the situation for me - it all ended well, but I made some  low$ changes to make him happy. (and they made me happy too)


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## SomeGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> It's good that you posted the code itself as well as the simplified versions. The code is the Bible (this one for Ontario) and the simplified ones are easier to read but not the Bible. I wish the actual code was not so expensive. In my opinion, it should be free.
> 
> Always best to do what the inspector says.



Agreed, any government enforced regulation should be freely available to all people to read.


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## thestelster (Jan 28, 2022)

If you go to the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) website, the people who do the inspections and where you get permits in Ontario, they have a FAQ section, with Technical/Code questions.  Extremely helpful.  I bought an older edition of the code book, for fairly cheap on Kijiji, and was able to access all the changes made to the newest version of the code.


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## Susquatch (Jan 28, 2022)

thestelster said:


> and was able to access all the changes made to the newest version of the code.



I have an older version too. Where did you get access to the updates?


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## thestelster (Jan 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I have an older version too. Where did you get access to the updates?


I got most of the information from the ESA website, in the FAQ section.  Scroll down the page, and you'll find the heading Technical/Code questions.  And I actually contacted them for some clarification on something or other, and they responded!!


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

Waiting for the inspector.......


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## YYCHM (Feb 16, 2022)

6 months later

Are those blue things crimp connectors?


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## SomeGuy (Feb 16, 2022)

Perry said:


> Waiting for the inspector.......
> 
> View attachment 21121



What are those taped off heavy gauge wires on the left? They're probably not going to like unused conductors.


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## Tincup (Feb 16, 2022)

Why not throw some 2" HDPE pipe in that trench. You may decide to run data lines or ? Out to the shop in the future


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## YYCHM (Feb 16, 2022)

Tincup said:


> Why not throw some 2" HDPE pipe in that trench. You may decide to run data lines or ? Out to the shop in the future



A little late, the trench was covered over before the snow arrived


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## Tincup (Feb 16, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> A little late, the trench was covered over before the snow arrived


Story of my life


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> 6 months later
> 
> Are those blue things crimp connectors?


Slow and steady.    It will be insulated just in time for the summer.          The blue things are wire nuts.   Not supposed to hook any of the circuits up until the inspection is complete.   I just put them on the ends of the wires to insulate them .  (Don't want them accidentally touching anything in the panel.)   There are two circuits connected on the top right.  They passed the initial inpsection when the panel was installed.


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> What are those taped off heavy gauge wires on the left? They're probably not going to like unused conductors.


Those are 6 gauge conductors going to my Nema 14-50 plug  (Car charger.) Neutral and ground are connected, but can not hook those up to the (50 amp) breaker until the inspection is complete.     The breaker just below that is a 100 amp breaker that feeds the house.  That is connected and was passed on a previous inspection.


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

Tincup said:


> Why not throw some 2" HDPE pipe in that trench. You may decide to run data lines or ? Out to the shop in the future


Great idea Tin.      I did add data lines in a conduit.... photo on post #55.


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

When you book the inspection they give you a time between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm.   The day of the inspection they narrow this down and send you out an email in the morning.   So mine is between 8:00 am and noon.   It's 11:00 am now.    I've cleaned everyone's sidewalk in the neighboorhood.  I'm running out of things to do....except come on here and cause trouble......   lol


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

Passed.


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## YYCHM (Feb 16, 2022)

Perry said:


> Passed.



Is that it now..... finished with inspections????


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## Perry (Feb 16, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Is that it now..... finished with inspections????


After I drywall and install all the fixtures these is one final inspection for the garage.   That should be straight forward.   This one went super smooth.  No issues.


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## Susquatch (Feb 16, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> What are those taped off heavy gauge wires on the left? They're probably not going to like unused conductors.
> 
> 
> YYCHM said:
> ...



No loss at all. Data lines are great but who needs em with WiFi being so fast today. 

My barn was too far for Cat6 so I put in a wireless point to point bridge. Works great! Easy to upgrade if I ever needed it. 

That said, did you think to bury a phone cable that could be used to connect an alarm? Please say yes......


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## Darren (Feb 16, 2022)

It would be great to have a separate thread on shop networking. Mine was working great for 2 years then all of a sudden it wouldn't.  I was in network hell for days. One comp would have internet, then another wouldn't,  I had to reset everything dozens of times.  Time to upgrade my hardware.


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## Susquatch (Feb 16, 2022)

dfloen said:


> It would be great to have a separate thread on shop networking. Mine was working great for 2 years then all of a sudden it wouldn't.  I was in network hell for days. One comp would have internet, then another wouldn't,  I had to reset everything dozens of times.  Time to upgrade my hardware.



That would be my recommendation. Skip the wires, get the latest WiFi, and configure it as a WAP (wireless access point) only served from the house Router. 

YYour only problem after that would be old non WiFi stuff like printers. But you can add a WiFi to wired bridge for that. 

It boils dow to what technology do you all have in there. 

Mine works great with just WiFi. Although I did have to put in one bridge to service my security cameras cuz the dumb things were wireless themselves but wouldn't connect to the network via WiFi - only wired. Go figure!


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## Susquatch (Feb 16, 2022)

dfloen said:


> It would be great to have a separate thread on shop networking. Mine was working great for 2 years then all of a sudden it wouldn't.  I was in network hell for days. One comp would have internet, then another wouldn't,  I had to reset everything dozens of times.  Time to upgrade my hardware.



Go ahead and start one. I'll help where I can. I am a bit of a geeks geek. I have several of my own domains, my own server, I am the admin for several hosting services, and I regularly fix what the geek squad can't. I'd bet big bucks there are other members who can help too. 

You are absolutely right. Networking is a part of machining these days.


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## Darren (Feb 16, 2022)

I'm fairly well versed in computers and networking,  but I'm not all up on the latest tech. If there's something new, I'd like to learn about it.


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## Susquatch (Feb 16, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I'm fairly well versed in computers and networking,  but I'm not all up on the latest tech. If there's something new, I'd like to learn about it.



New is old, old is new. What goes around comes around! Faster and faster and faster. 

There are only a few things that are really new. Security is the biggest issue. Lotsa changes there and lots to know. Also mesh WiFi for broader faster coverage with fewer weak spots. And ipv6 which is catching on but so slowly that I wouldn't worry about it just yet.


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## ShawnR (Feb 16, 2022)

@dfloen did you run a cable to your shop or are you using wifi? My shop is 100 feet from the back of my house and the router is in the front of the house. I could move it to the back but still a good distance. And not sure management would like the router as an ornament in the living room. I did not put a pipe in the ground to drag a CAT 5? cable through, unfortunately.

Currently, in my shop, my phone does not see my house wifi


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 16, 2022)

I also go wireless - if your shop has bad connection just add repeaters - they are not expensive to get. One repeater at shop entrance should give you powerful wireless in the entire shop. 

Even if shop is far away, use directional repeaters. I assume far away == two miles but something more tame, like few hundred feet. I am unsure about 2 miles but for say 100m / 300ft you can get stuff for under $100 - https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Long-...ocphy=9001310&hvtargid=pla-973007825406&psc=1


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## Susquatch (Feb 16, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> @dfloen did you run a cable to your shop or are you using wifi? My shop is 100 feet from the back of my house and the router is in the front of the house. I could move it to the back but still a good distance. And not sure management would like the router as an ornament in the living room. I did not put a pipe in the ground to drag a CAT 5? cable through, unfortunately.
> 
> Currently, in my shop, my phone does not see my house wifi



If you don't see a signal at all, your problem might be steel walls. That was my problem. I solved that with a wireless bridge. It's a bit like a repeater but faster and much longer range. In my case, I put one end of the bridge up on the roof of the house and pointed it at the barn 200 yards away. The other end was mounted high on the barn wall pointed at the house. A short Ethernet cable from the bridge outside to a wireless router configured as a WiFi Access point  inside  and I'm good to go. 

My bridge is good for maybe 5 miles so it's more than enough to service the barn. Cost was the same for short or long range.


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## Darren (Feb 16, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> @dfloen did you run a cable to your shop or are you using wifi? My shop is 100 feet from the back of my house and the router is in the front of the house. I could move it to the back but still a good distance. And not sure management would like the router as an ornament in the living room. I did not put a pipe in the ground to drag a CAT 5? cable through, unfortunately.
> 
> Currently, in my shop, my phone does not see my house wifi



The first part of my 8 year landscaping project was the backyard behind the house. Not wanting to touch it again, i buried two pipes between the house and garden shed. One for the 100A sub panel in the shed, and one for telephone and Cat5e.  The shed serves as a hub, and with everything in there, i wouldn't have to dig up my backyard. When i built the small shop in 2014, I ran 60a to it, along with telephone/networking. and then did the same when I built the big shop. 

When I got Starlink, I mounted the dish to the shed, and connected it to the gigabit switch in the shed, and everything worked fine.  Until this past weekend when it all stopped working. Still not sure exactly what happened.


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## LeakyCanoe (Feb 16, 2022)

I think it was a solar storm that likely messed up your Starlink Darren. 

Here's a link to the story:









						Solar Storm Knocks 40 SpaceX Satellites Out of Orbit
					

A solar outburst is increasing atmospheric drag and pulling the satellites back down to Earth




					www.smithsonianmag.com


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## Susquatch (Feb 17, 2022)

dfloen said:


> The first part of my 8 year landscaping project was the backyard behind the house. Not wanting to touch it again, i buried two pipes between the house and garden shed. One for the 100A sub panel in the shed, and one for telephone and Cat5e.  The shed serves as a hub, and with everything in there, i wouldn't have to dig up my backyard. When i built the small shop in 2014, I ran 60a to it, along with telephone/networking. and then did the same when I built the big shop.
> 
> When I got Starlink, I mounted the dish to the shed, and connected it to the gigabit switch in the shed, and everything worked fine.  Until this past weekend when it all stopped working. Still not sure exactly what happened.



I will assume you rebooted the starlink, router and any switches or hubs with at least 2 minutes off time. 90% fix

I'll also assume you checked for LAN activity on all the connections. 5% fix.

Connections connections connections...... It is winter out there. 3% fix

Can you reverse ping your starlink modem using your phone on carrier data? This will tell you if your starlink is actually connected. 2% fix

If so, can you direct connect a laptop to the starlink using only a wired connection? 1% fix

You get the idea. 

That reverse ping is sometimes a toughie. Starlink might have to do it for you if they don't want to give you your router's IP address (which might not be a  fixed IP). I like to find all my IPs when things are working so I know what they "probably are" when it isn't working. Anyway, as per @LeakyCanoe thoughts, I like to check if my providers end is working before I do anything on my end. Of course, they will do the reverse. LMAO! When they tell you to reboot everything I just put them on hold and go get a coffee because I already did it...... LOL again! 

I NEVER let any body tell me to change my computer settings or access them from their end. I'd rather get poked in the eye with a sharp stick.


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## Darren (Feb 17, 2022)

Its all working fine now. I was not using the starlink router before. It worked fine for a year like that. i used my Linksys for DHCP, but all of a sudden it didn't like that. I put the Starlink router back in the shed, and set my Linksys routers to bridge mode and everything is now working. I don't know what changed.


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## Susquatch (Feb 17, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Its all working fine now. I was not using the starlink router before. It worked fine for a year like that. i used my Linksys for DHCP, but all of a sudden it didn't like that. I put the Starlink router back in the shed, and set my Linksys routers to bridge mode and everything is now working. I don't know what changed.


That's funny! I use mine exactly the same way that you used to. I don't like the providers router. Not enough security or flexibity in it for my taste. So I only use it as a modem and pass the signal on to my Asus Router to handle my network. The Asus will handle multiple networks simultaneously, has incredible flexibility for setting priorities, bandwidth allocation, security, and to top it all off has about a half kilometer WiFi range while also supporting mesh wifi networking. Too bad it won't slice through the metal walls out at the shop. 

If I were you, I'd accept that your old router is toast, go get a decent mesh router, and go back to using your starlink only as a modem.


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## Hacker (Feb 17, 2022)

Perry said:


> Waiting for the inspector.......
> 
> View attachment 21121


Things will pick up once the inspection is completed.


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## Hacker (Feb 17, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> A little late, the trench was covered over before the snow arrived


It can still be done. I would re-excavate the trench and drop in the cables in the spring. They don't have to be that deep, 12 inches should be fine. 
I ran two sets of cables and use them for the internet, security and to control the heat from the house.


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## Darren (Feb 17, 2022)

Hacker said:


> It can still be done. I would re-excavate the trench and drop in the cables in the spring. They don't have to be that deep, 12 inches should be fine.
> I ran two sets of cables and use them for the internet, security and to control the heat from the house.



I have Honeywell wifi thermostats in the house and shop. They are great. Can be controlled from anywhere. Best invention ever.


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## Susquatch (Feb 17, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have Honeywell wifi thermostats in the house and shop. They are great. Can be controlled from anywhere. Best invention ever.



We have nests. Love them too. 

Best of all, we took three ugly controls off the wall in the house and replaced them all with one multifunction nest. I'm happy with better control and wife is happy with less ugly.


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## Darren (Feb 17, 2022)

I'm on propane heat in the house and shop, supplemented with wood. I don't burn wood in the shop or propane unless im working. Too expensive. We turn the heat off in the house at 6am, and use the phone app to turn the heat on on the way home. If I'm going to work in the shop I can turn the heat on from my phone. Super conveinient and has saved me a ton of cash.


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## LeakyCanoe (Feb 17, 2022)

The nice thing about the Honeywell wifi thermostats is you pay for the product, you download the app, and it works great thereafter at an acceptable one-time price point.  The big value proposition is that there is no ongoing residual charge to pay.  

We have one at our vacation property and we can turn the heat up 45 minutes before arrival, correct temperatures later if we forget, etc. and we can check it all remotely when we are not there for no further cost.  And it has a humidity reading too, so that gives us peace of mind that there hasn't been a burst pipe or other water-related trauma unfolding unbeknownst to us.  Yes, you can get dedicated online moisture detectors but most of them want a residual income from that in the form of an ongoing monthly fee.   Recurring revenue is great if you are on the right side of the balance sheet...a bit of a ball and chain on the other side.


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## Susquatch (Feb 18, 2022)

LeakyCanoe said:


> The nice thing about the Honeywell wifi thermostats is you pay for the product, you download the app, and it works great thereafter at an acceptable one-time price point.  The big value proposition is that there is no ongoing residual charge to pay.
> 
> We have one at our vacation property and we can turn the heat up 45 minutes before arrival, correct temperatures later if we forget, etc. and we can check it all remotely when we are not there for no further cost.  And it has a humidity reading too, so that gives us peace of mind that there hasn't been a burst pipe or other water-related trauma unfolding unbeknownst to us.  Yes, you can get dedicated online moisture detectors but most of them want a residual income from that in the form of an ongoing monthly fee.   Recurring revenue is great if you are on the right side of the balance sheet...a bit of a ball and chain on the other side.



I think it's important to realize that these benefits are not brand/make/model specific. Almost any WiFi style thermostat today has those remote monitoring and control abilities.

The biggest thing to watch out for is whether or not your thermostat wiring supports a smart thermostat (has a power and ground wire) and what kind of thermostat your furnace system uses. 

For most of the members here, these are not really a big problem though.


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## Hacker (Feb 20, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have Honeywell wifi thermostats in the house and shop. They are great. Can be controlled from anywhere. Best invention ever.


I tried them and it wouldn't work in my shop. That shop is a dead zone for cellphone and wireless. The other part of that is I have an aversion to using wireless for most things. In a previous life I was involved with control security and most wifi devices are not very secure. The ability to monitor the building is a nice feature and I have that with the security system which is also hardwired.


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## Hacker (Feb 20, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I'm on propane heat in the house and shop, supplemented with wood. I don't burn wood in the shop or propane unless im working. Too expensive. We turn the heat off in the house at 6am, and use the phone app to turn the heat on on the way home. If I'm going to work in the shop I can turn the heat on from my phone. Super conveinient and has saved me a ton of cash.


When I was building my shop I called the insurance company that we use and have it added to the coverage. One of the first questions they asked was what type of heating I was installing. I mentioned that I was thinking of using wood as a secondary source and they told me that they would not insure it if I used wood for heating.


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## Susquatch (Feb 20, 2022)

Hacker said:


> When I was building my shop I called the insurance company that we use and have it added to the coverage. One of the first questions they asked was what type of heating I was installing. I mentioned that I was thinking of using wood as a secondary source and they told me that they would not insure it if I used wood for heating.



My insurance (a farm mutual) knows I have a wood stove and they are ok with it. I was told it's an individual insurer policy - not universal.


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## Susquatch (Feb 20, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I tried them and it wouldn't work in my shop. That shop is a dead zone for cellphone and wireless. The other part of that is I have an aversion to using wireless for most things. In a previous life I was involved with control security and most wifi devices are not very secure. The ability to monitor the building is a nice feature and I have that with the security system which is also hardwired.



I hear you on security. I am a crazy man when it comes to security. I always go way overboard. If you have wired internet into your shop, you could install a low powered wireless access point for just inside the shop that no-one outside would even know was there. Just a thought.


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## Perry (Feb 20, 2022)

Well I'm insulating the ceiling today...... I've got a question for you gents....

The roof tapers down to a pretty tight space at the eave.   I have the blockers in place to prevent the insulation from blocking the airflow from the soffits.

The R40 insulation is about 11 inches thick.  Do you trim this down to a thinner profile to prevent it from becoming compressed?   Compressed insulation is not very effective.         How would you trim this if in fact I should trim it?


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## Brent H (Feb 20, 2022)

I just peel it back on itself so the thickness is not an issue where it goes over the top plate and between the air flow dams.


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## Susquatch (Feb 20, 2022)

Perry said:


> Well I'm insulating the ceiling today...... I've got a question for you gents....
> 
> The roof tapers down to a pretty tight space at the eave.   I have the blockers in place to prevent the insulation from blocking the airflow from the soffits.
> 
> The R40 insulation is about 11 inches thick.  Do you trim this down to a thinner profile to prevent it from becoming compressed?   Compressed insulation is not very effective.         How would you trim this if in fact I should trim it?



Further to Brent's comment, it doesn't hurt if it's too thick and folding it back does just that where it overlaps. A little compression like 10 or even 20% or so isn't really a big deal either. Better a bit of compression than gaps or openings.


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## Dabbler (Feb 20, 2022)

Compression actually increases the r value marginally, but since it is thinner, it is a small loss.  consider it a wash.


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## Perry (Feb 20, 2022)

That is basically what I've been doing.     Maybe three inches max height at the outside edge of the sill plate.   

That R40 is 11 inches , so I've been tearing it at about the 50% thickness.    


and a photo for something to look at.....lol


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## Perry (Feb 21, 2022)

Slowly moving forward.    Calling it a night.


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

Just for future reference, they make wax coated carboard baffles that staple in place and form a pocket to completely block the end. I have used both and find these way better.


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## Hacker (Feb 21, 2022)

Sorry Perry, I know this is too late but If you buy a minimum of 10 bags of the blown insulation at Home Depot they give you a free rental of the machine. It is faster and easier to do it that way.


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## Hacker (Feb 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I hear you on security. I am a crazy man when it comes to security. I always go way overboard. If you have wired internet into your shop, you could install a low powered wireless access point for just inside the shop that no-one outside would even know was there. Just a thought.


Our security system is tied into the internet in the house. I have that configuration in the shop as I use the wifi for cell phone. The router is connected to the light circuit and is turned off when I leave the building.


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## Susquatch (Feb 21, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Our security system is tied into the internet in the house. I have that configuration in the shop as I use the wifi for cell phone. The router is connected to the light circuit and is turned off when I leave the building.


Mine is tied into the house too. But you are the first I've ever heard who powered their WiFi off the light circuit. It's an excellent idea that I will have to remember for the future. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that in my shop because my security cameras are also wireless.


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## Perry (Feb 21, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Just for future reference, they make wax coated carboard baffles that staple in place and form a pocket to completely block the end. I have used both and find these way better.


If you could only find those.   I looked.    I couldn't even find the styrofoam ones that have the creased ends that you fold into shape.  

I like how much room you have above the top plate.   It's funny the little things you start to notice after working on a project.


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

That's not mine, but mine is similar.


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## RobinHood (Feb 21, 2022)

Perry said:


> I like how much room you have above the top plate



I believe one can order special trusses to give you more room for insulation above the top plate.


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> I believe one can order special trusses to give you more room for insulation above the top plate.



Called an energy heel truss, or raised heel.


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## Hacker (Feb 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Mine is tied into the house too. But you are the first I've ever heard who powered their WiFi off the light circuit. It's an excellent idea that I will have to remember for the future. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that in my shop because my security cameras are also wireless.


In stead of hard wiring the lights in I installed plugins that are switched for all lights. I also used those circuits for parasitic loads.


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## RobinHood (Feb 22, 2022)

Thanks Darren for providing the proper term.


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## Perry (Feb 27, 2022)

Finished the ceiling insulation and vapor barrier last week.   Took most of the weekend off, but I did add a catwalk in the attic.






Need to make an attic door tomorrow.   I sized the opening fairly large.  54''X22".   Might have to reduce it to 48".   (Easier to purchase a smaller piece of material for the door)   I seem to remember Home Depot use to sell half sheets.....cut 2'X 8', but I can't find them now. 

This week the ceiling drywall will hopefully go up.   Only 18 sheets,  but 1000 items to shuffle around in the garage.   lol


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## Susquatch (Feb 28, 2022)

Perry said:


> Finished the ceiling insulation and vapor barrier last week.   Took most of the weekend off, but I did add a catwalk in the attic.
> View attachment 21467
> 
> 
> ...



Its looking GREAT @Perry! I can sense your well deserved pride! 

If it's not too late, consider sub floor instead of drywall. I've seen a couple of shops done that way and it looks awesome! Best of all it's WAY EASIER to do than drywall.


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## Perry (Mar 8, 2022)

Drywall up on the ceiling, finished over the week end.  

I usually park the truck in the garage, but left it out because I still had a bit of a mess to sort out in the garage.

Yesterdays plan was to start the next stage of the project, but when I went out to my truck I found that someone liked my catalytic converter more than me. 

So I spent most of the day talking (when I say talking, I actually mean waiting on hold) with the insurance company.   Today they towed the truck off.....to a body shop?   I questioned what that was about and they said they take it to a body shop first to appraise it, then to the muffler shop.    Something sounds off here. 

So here I sit in a holding pattern.    Perfect time to do the taxes.  I do a few peoples so they all just got lucky.


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## Hacker (Mar 9, 2022)

Perry said:


> Drywall up on the ceiling, finished over the week end.
> 
> I usually park the truck in the garage, but left it out because I still had a bit of a mess to sort out in the garage.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your catalytic converter. Someone tried to remove mine in the parking lot of a Home Depot. They cut the rear pipe half way through before abandoning the exercise for reasons unknown. I was lucky just had to weld the cut closed.


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## YotaBota (Mar 9, 2022)

Perry said:


> I went out to my truck I found that someone liked my catalytic converter more than me.


I can't wait for one of these geniuses to think an EV battery will be a worthy target and get out their sawzall.
Other than that the shop is looking good, you'll enjoy the warm space to work in.


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## Perry (Aug 27, 2022)

Ok, the garage project is moving forward again.      Working on the last wall of insulation and putting dry wall up.  

Question of the day.   The exhaust for the furnace goes thru the wall .(Horiizontal)      How do you seal the vapor barrier around that area?

I've checked the internet and of course I now have more questions and seen multiple installs that conflict with each other.


My terminology may be off here but from what I understand is the square metal piece is called the "firestop".

Do you seal the vapor barrier to the firestop plate and install the drywall over it?

OR

Do you slide the firestop back drywall the wall (leaving an opening large enough to slide the fire stop back in place) and then slide the fire stop back into place.   If I do it this way...What happens to the vapor barrier?








Thank you in advance.


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## SomeGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

Vapor Barrier won't be 100% sealed around it, don't worry about it. The thimble should go on the outside of the drywall, you want that protected sleeve all the way through the wall.


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## Perry (Aug 27, 2022)

Thank you SomeGuy.

So I peeled the high temp silicone off and pulled the thimble back.    Should have done that first prior to posting.   I think I see an easy answer.  I'll frame a box around the exhaust and then seal the vapor barrier on that boxed opening.       I don't think I'll need to insulate inside the boxed area around the pipe unless you guys have some wisdom for me.   

Will update with a picture later.   Back to work.


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## Dabbler (Aug 27, 2022)

@Perry I use mineral wool around the pipe in the box.  If you need a piece I have lots.


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## Darren (Aug 27, 2022)

I build a box around the thimble with 2x same as studs, maintain 3" clearance.  Vapor barrier and insulate up to that.


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## SomeGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

I've got roxul around my thimble in the wall...I didn't frame anything special though, was doing it retrofit...just cut a hole through to the outside (drywall, through insulation, sheathing, then brick), pulled out the pink batting in the area, replaced with roxul, put the two piece thimble in, and screwed it down both inside and out, finished with high temp silicone on outside only. Haven't had any issues with air leakage or other problems around there.

Only thing I see here, your indoor thimble looks like my outdoor one...my indoor one clamped to the actual exhaust pipe to keep it centered and also leave a bit of space to vent the inside of the thimble space itself.


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## Perry (Aug 28, 2022)

Here is an update photo as promised.   




I will seal the vapor barrier on the box.   Should be air tight.   


@Dabbler, thank you for the offer. I appreciate it. Read online that I can use the pink insulation right up to the surface of the outer duct.   (I decided not to do that and will leave the air gap between the framing and the duct.   Shouldn't be a significant heat lose. )


As of tonight there is no more insulation to do.   One wall left to vapor barrier.  Moving along.  Slowly.


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2022)

Well this project is still going along.....slowly. Life gets busy.   It has really cut into my machining hobby.  I'm not complaining.   Last year this time I was wondering if I was going to beat the weather.

So in the end I decided to drywall most of the low traffic areas and put up OSB in the areas where I would be doing a little more work.    Regular OSB would not be fine for me so I did a few test samples and this is what I came up with.

The two on the top row are my favorites.   Only difference is one has an oil based Varathane, the other is water based.









This idea was taken from a Youtube video that could be found here...






So I went down to pick up my OSB last night and when I got home I realized something has changed on the smooth surface of the OSB there is an obvious coating now.

My test pieces were done on some scraps left over from when the garage was built in 2015.  These do not have the coating.     I'm pretty sure the coating will mess up my plans.   

Took the OSB back to HomeDepot and went to check out the other dealers.   Not too much luck.   It appears the other brands are doing the same thing.   I did notice that the tongue and groove OSB (which is quite a bit thicker) does not appear to have this coating. 

It's funny that when I was checking out the Rona (The old Totem on Edmonton trail) I noticed they had a sheet of OSB put up as a divider when you walk out the lumber yard.  This did not have the coating and has obviously been installed there for a while.



So I come here to the wise wizards of knowledge.     I need 6 sheets of 7/16"   (I could use 3/8" if it come down to it.) OSB without the coating.    Can I buy it with out the coating?    Where can I find old stock?    Ideas?  Thoughts?   

This is the last wall.  Drywall is done.  Painted.   Looking pretty good.   All sockets on finished walls and ceilings installed.   Just this last wall holding me up now.


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## Doggggboy (Nov 22, 2022)

Is there a difference in the flammability? That would be a primary concern


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## Darren (Nov 22, 2022)

that coating comes off pretty quick with 36 grit on a DA sander. 30 seconds a sheet.


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## Dabbler (Nov 22, 2022)

Nice progress!


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## Perry (Nov 22, 2022)

@ Doggggboy,   Good point.  

@Darren   If I sand first, I will lose the deep cracks and crevices that I'm hoping will capture the first coat of paint.  36 grit?  Yikes.   lol.
                 I was wondering if there is something I may be able to strip it with?  (Easily)  

@ Dabbler    Thank you.   The drywall slowed me down.   It turned out pretty good.   Almost as good as the pros, but not anywhere as fast.    Ceilings are the worst.  All over head.   Such a large open area.        



Just researching on the web tonight.  I might give Tolko Industries a call tomorrow.  They are in Meadow Lake , Sask.    My sample pieces are from them.  The Rona/Lowes carries their products.   Maybe they can suggest something.


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## Perry (Dec 19, 2022)

I did end up calling Tolko Industries.   Talked to their plant manager and he put me thru to one of their engineers.   Very nice and helpful bunch of gentlemen to take the time to answer my questions.      Read that as "great customer support".

There is no coating added to the surface of the product.   They could not tell me why the older OSB has a different surface finish compared to the newer OSB.   The blue paint along the edges of each panel is a wax/oil they apply to seal the edge of the panel and it might give a problem along the edges , but the surface should be ok.


And they were correct.







Prepped 6 of these up and took the time to hang them on the far wall.   The photos do not do these justice.   Amazing look.     The hard part was sanding the sheets to the same look.  Too little sanding, the sheet was too dark.  Too much sanding the sheet was too light.








I moved the industrial shelving to the middle of the garage so I could work around it and give myself a little challenge.   Without the shelving it would have been far too easy.


I prepped up three more sheets to finish around the entry door.  These sheets look even better.  They are left over from my buddy's garage which he built in 2001.  The pattern in the OSB is different and in my opinion far better looking then the first set.





These will be used to close in around the entry door and electrical panel area.






With most of the walls complete I installed the rest of the plugs and wall plates.  To meet the final wiring inspection requirements everything needs to be installed and switchplate/plug plate covers on.  So I temp installed the switch plate on the entry door location and set up my appointment last week for this Monday.  Well double checking stuff I found that my new 240V 50amp breaker (electric car charger plug) was only supplying power on one side.  The breaker was no good from new.    This was purchased last February.     They would not accept a return, but did split the difference with me.  I had to pay 50% to replace it.  I should have plugged these into the rail and checked voltage on the terminals when I bought the breakers but  you never think that one would be failed.   Of course it was the most expensive one in the bunch.


So today the wring has passed the final inspection with no issues.  


Need to finish up the wall near the entry door.    Add some trim to the window, door, attic door, etc.      Then come up with a plan to hide the cables along the right side of the power panel.   After a good clean up I might be able to start setting up some of my equipment from the basement in the garage.


A year of spare time gone...just like that.  Well actually 1/2 year.......I slacked off most of the summer. 




I appreciate the help and suggestions everyone threw at me over this little project.


Happy Holidays to all my brothers (and sisters) here on Canadianhobbymetalworkers.


Perry


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## Darren (Dec 19, 2022)

That looks awesome!


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 19, 2022)

Very nice.  And now I feel awful.  I haven't even got plastic on all my insulation much less the red tape...


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## Perry (Dec 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Very nice.  And now I feel awful.  I haven't even got plastic on all my insulation much less the red tape...


Thank you.

Most of my joints have the red tape and the acoustical sealant.  Messy crap.    lol.    This area I skipped the sealant as the panels will be easy to remove and the tape is easy to peel back to add/change the wiring.


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 20, 2022)

Looks good.


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## Susquatch (Dec 20, 2022)

Awesome Perry! So glad you are happy. I can easily see some cool machining going on in there!


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## Dabbler (Dec 20, 2022)

wow!  Great progress!  That must have been a *ton* of work to move those shelves!


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## RobinHood (Dec 20, 2022)

That is a very nice touch on those OSB sheets. Looks nice and seals the surface for easier cleaning.

That garage/shop looks great and should be a good place for your machines.

Merry Christmas to you too Perry.


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## ShawnR (Dec 20, 2022)

Perry said:


> I appreciate the help and suggestions everyone threw at me over this little project.
> 
> 
> Happy Holidays to all my brothers (and sisters) here on Canadianhobbymetalworkers.
> ...


@Perry 

A 17 page thread.....don't think it is a "little project"...

Congratulations on completing it (mostly)! Good perseverance on your part.


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## ShawnR (Dec 20, 2022)

I just noticed the red Tuck tape. Apparently, in Ontario, that is no longer code. We now have blue Tuck tape to meet the new code.

Someone needed to justify their job I guess and ran out of code amendments so decided to change the tape colour. Good for another year or so before another decision needs to be made......


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## Darren (Dec 20, 2022)

there's a few miles of red tuck tape in my shop. I hope its not a long term durability problem.


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## David_R8 (Dec 20, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I just noticed the red Tuck tape. Apparently, in Ontario, that is no longer code. We now have blue Tuck tape to meet the new code.
> 
> Someone needed to justify their job I guess and ran out of code amendments so decided to change the tape colour. Good for another year or so before another decision needs to be made......


For real?


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## curmudgeon (Dec 20, 2022)

I think red is thinner and less sticky and was developed/tested/certified for exterior building wrap, while blue was developed/tested/certified for interior PE vapour barrier.


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## David_R8 (Dec 20, 2022)

curmudgeon said:


> I think red is thinner and less sticky and was developed/tested/certified for exterior building wrap, while blue was developed/tested/certified for interior PE vapour barrier.


I did not know this...


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## calgaryguy (Dec 20, 2022)

Perry said:


> I didn't want to derail the "Garage heater install" thread so I've started a new one.
> 
> Some of you have probably been thru this and may have answers or info to share.
> 
> ...


I'm in Calgary. I'm setup just like you want to be.

1962 bungalow, originally had a 100A service to house. built new garage in 2007 and had the service relocated to the garage. House is a 100A subservice off main panel in garage. Feeder from garage to house is aluminum. As long as the correct lugs for aluminum wire are used and the electrician uses Naolox or other anti-oxidizing compound on the connectors its no problem. The big benefit is COST as the aluminum is usually MUCH cheaper than copper. My feeder is a USEB90 cable.

In terms of your house panel size, get as many slots for breakers as you can for your 100A panel size. Same idea in garage. IMO.

When I upgraded my house panel, I pulled a homeowner permit - since the house was a subservice off the garage I was allowed to do the panel replacement in the house on my own with inspection afterwards. This is allowed in Alberta anyways.

funny story, the 60+ year old cable from the pole to the house 100a meter was snipped off and then immediately reused by enmax to run the 200a service to the garage.

Doing this service relocation and 200A upgrade was the best thing I spent money on IMO. Shop has plenty of power. and 100A for 1100 sq ft house is plenty.

EDIT: I now see @Perry original post was from Sept of 2021. Lol. My bad. Anyone in Calgary on the forum that is planning on doing this in the future is welcome to come by and see my setup. I was VERY involved with the entire process; I sourced and ran the conduit and cable to the house with guidance from the electrician, replaced my own house panel on a homeowner permit, etc etc.


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## calgaryguy (Dec 20, 2022)

Johnwa said:


> In Calgary I believe the main panel has to be done by a licensed electrician,  The home owner can do sub panels though.  As a DIYer I won’t touch aluminum, copper is way more forgiving.


This is 100% correct. The permit for a service relocation must be 'pulled' by an electrician with a masters ticket. In my case the company owner was the guy with the masters ticket and sent his journeyman out.


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## ShawnR (Dec 21, 2022)

curmudgeon said:


> I think red is thinner and less sticky and was developed/tested/certified for exterior building wrap, while blue was developed/tested/certified for interior PE vapour barrier.



Not sure of the specifics. I was told by the building yard that the blue is the new code, and the inspector backed it up. No one specified interior or exterior so I used it both. As you say, I think it is is stickier and thicker. That was my first thoughts when I started using it.

@Darren  I guess you have miles of the red!! I doubt it is a durability thing. But I am guessing.


As for electrical in Ontario, all electrical can be done by the homeowner, (mounting and connecting of meterbase (house side) and in)  but he cannot have help. As part of our current reno, I moved a meter base so it is fresh in my mind. I got it all ready for Hydro (meaning mounting of the new  base, and inside connections with new supply lines to the old panel, and they came, disconnected the old base supply, ran new wires to my new base, and then reconnected. But, a homeowner can get advice, or help pulling the heavier supply line, as I did, but otherwise, it must be done by himself. Technically, I could not even go pull wires for a friend. As with all inspections, (and inspectors) there may be some leeway here but technically, no help means no help. OR the homeowner can hire a contractor to do the whole job. As I type this, I am thinking that, a homeowner may be able to get a permit for a service install and have that done by a contractor, and then a second permit whereby he states he is the one doing the wiring. Say, if one was not comfortable with the installation of a service. That would add more cost to a job ie, 2 permits, but not the same as having a contractor do a whole house.


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## Darren (Dec 21, 2022)

Shawn i was told that the homeowner permit thing was to prevent backyard/unlicensed electricians from doing side work.  The work at my buddies place was too nice, no violations, and the inspector grilled him about who actually did the work.


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## ShawnR (Dec 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> Shawn i was told that the homeowner permit thing was to prevent backyard/unlicensed electricians from doing side work.  The work at my buddies place was too nice, no violations, and the inspector grilled him about who actually did the work.


yep, I heard that too when that came into effect. Probably more to it than that if one gets into the details but that is the essence.  The inspectors have been finding and busting a lot of non licensed guys doing work lately. They do look for it so if your friend did a great job, but yet seemed unfamiliar with basics, then that is a flag for them. Good that he does nice work.  But usually a few questions about how things were done and if the guy can state confidently how it was done, then they know the guy actually did the work and there should be no issues. They like to see nice work. It goes a lot to say about the stuff which cannot be inspected. I have seen some panels installed by guys that essentially knew little or nothing about electrical before, but do such careful work, and ask questions, that their work looks what we would consider "professional". I have also seen panels done by "pros" that look like they were amateurs so it comes back to the " care" factor. Some do, some don't. Wire one house or one garage and you will be able to answer any question the inspector throws at you. He is not trying to trap you, just insure you did the work. 

I have always done my own wiring, 2 garages, 2 buildings, and several renos so have met several inspectors. They have all been great, even one known for being a grumpy old guy. 

It is a little disappointing that I cannot go over and help a friend pull wires or nail in boxes, but I guess that that leads to a slippery slope....

Just my 2 cents


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## Darren (Dec 21, 2022)

I could tell you a few stories about the grumpy old guy. He was a bit of a jerk. Wasn't he also the local union prez too at one time?


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## ShawnR (Dec 21, 2022)

lol...don't know. Sounds like we need a beer in your shop to discuss. I could find a dozen morale boosters for you. It is the season, after all...


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## Brent H (Dec 21, 2022)

In New Brunswick a licensed electrician is required to even drill the stud holes.  Repairs, including outlet change etc are required of an electrician. This may be my new course in life after we move there - I have wired 3 or 4
Houses and 3 or 4 shops, cottages and changed
Service panels in a few places. Then several years farting around with super power on ships - 

Have to see if I can get 3 phase at the new shop!!


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## Susquatch (Dec 21, 2022)

Brent H said:


> Have to see if I can get 3 phase at the new shop!!



I thought your new place was in the sticks. Might be easy. Might not. Should be able to tell if you have any chance of 3ph by looking at the power lines going past your place. Three wires up top and one further down is a very good sign.


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## Brent H (Dec 21, 2022)

Will see, transformer is right close to my place.   Several trees to drop to clean things up.


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