# When does it start violating the rules, IF I were to....



## TorontoBuilder (Nov 16, 2022)

How long til I get banned if I were to post every day asking "WHO THE HECK HAS MY LATHE!!!!?"

I'd hope that I'd annoy someone enough to locate a Colchester Student 2500 13x40 for me before I got banned.... or a Harrison M300 13x40 of course.

Anyone else wanna find out 

Dont worry mods, I wont.


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## Degen (Nov 17, 2022)

I don't think you'd get banned, but some might start send you on wild goose chases just to watch the frustration build .


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## YotaBota (Nov 17, 2022)

Here ya go, start the truck.








						Harrison 40” metal lathe and a advanced milling machine, | Power Tools | Strathcona County | Kijiji
					

Harrison 40” metal lathe and advanced milling machine model rt30 open to reasonable offers




					www.kijiji.ca


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 17, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Here ya go, start the truck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is older than we want, but if it looks like the one below I'll drive to AB to pick it up if the price is right. Or have it shipped maybe


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## YotaBota (Nov 17, 2022)

Does it do metric and SAE threading?


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 17, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Does it do metric and SAE threading?


yep it did. 

And allegedly it came out of an OPG maintenance shop so had very little use compared to a production shop. My brother just let himself get beat in the last minute of the auction.


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## YotaBota (Nov 17, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> My brother just let himself get beat in the last minute of the auction.


Good help is so hard to find, LOL
Good luck in the search.


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## PeterT (Nov 17, 2022)

Looks like a nice lathe. Just curious how you landed on that brand for your wish list? I've seen this discussed in other forums where people had a notion of where they were made, probably dating back to where they were 'originally' made (UK). Anyways you probably researched this, but just putting it out there FWIW. Old links but this was the gist of it: was partnered/outsourced to Asia some time ago at least in the smaller hobby formats if I understand correctly.
_
Here's my understanding. Both Clausing/Cochester and Harrison are owned by the 600 Group, which is now having its smaller manual lathes made in China. Apparently, virtually identical lathes (without the Clausing or Harrison badge) can be had out of the same factories at much lower prices._






						Considering to buy a NEW Clausing/Colchester 15" manual lathe...
					

Sup all?  After buying a brand new Cyclematic (hlv-h clone), a friend of mine would like to buy a new clausing/colchester 15" variable speed lathe for his shop (needs some more capacity).  We browsed the web the other day and saw a few threads from here and from other sites and forums that say...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				












						600 UK machine tool manufacturring Colchester Harrison
					

Andrew Allcock visited the reconfigured 600 UK manufacturing site and heard how the company is once again thriving and introducing new products. It's been a long journey to get here, he observes (extended version)




					www.machinery.co.uk


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 17, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Looks like a nice lathe. Just curious how you landed on that brand for your wish list? I've seen this discussed in other forums where people had a notion of where they were made, probably dating back to where they were 'originally' made (UK). Anyways you probably researched this, but just putting it out there FWIW. Old links but this was the gist of it: was partnered/outsourced to Asia some time ago at least in the smaller hobby formats if I understand correctly.
> 
> _Here's my understanding. Both Clausing/Cochester and Harrison are owned by the 600 Group, which is now having its smaller manual lathes made in China. Apparently, virtually identical lathes (without the Clausing or Harrison badge) can be had out of the same factories at much lower prices._
> 
> ...



When the Chinese knock off one of these lathes and sell them cheaper they make them cheaper and not to the same finish specs.

I've seen hundreds of mainland chinese lathes and found they all suck... and wear quickly. Taiwanese are much better IMO,and I would buy one in good condition.

I selected these particular models for their specific size 13x40, their gearing and threading layout and capabilities, we know the machine so even as we get senile we can still use it without too much confusion, and finally the mass is just the right balance between moveable by ourselves and much heavier than we had so should get better finish on parts.

Oh we also said we'd like a standard modern... and if someone can post a chinese knock off that is identical to the student 2500 13x40 please do so, I'd buy it in a minute. I've never seen one


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## Six O Two (Nov 17, 2022)

HARRISON LATHE MODEL VS 330TR CENTER LATHE, COLLET CHUCK, TAILSTOCK TOOLPOST. PLEASE NOTE: EXCLUS
					

Lot 130 at Magna Powertrain Die Cast & CNC's (Surplus to Ongoing Operations) from Workingman Capital Corp. / Hilco Industrial.




					www.bidspotter.com


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## YotaBota (Nov 17, 2022)

Lot #129 is a newer SM1334 that might work as well.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 17, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Lot #129 is a newer SM1334 that might work as well.


seen it long ago my friend and the Harrison they have... and a few other hidden gems I shall keep close to my vest


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 17, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> HARRISON LATHE MODEL VS 330TR CENTER LATHE, COLLET CHUCK, TAILSTOCK TOOLPOST. PLEASE NOTE: EXCLUS
> 
> 
> Lot 130 at Magna Powertrain Die Cast & CNC's (Surplus to Ongoing Operations) from Workingman Capital Corp. / Hilco Industrial.
> ...


Yeah seen it, but I appreciate the link. I think this is a 13x25 but I shall be previewing it and the SM plus some other items there. IMO it is likely rode hard... my FIL worked at magna intl.

I'm not sure how the online live auctions go though...

IF anyone does bid be careful... it is missing the steady rest, which can be found in an EARLIER lot of junk in a cabinet


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## Six O Two (Nov 17, 2022)

Yeah, I figured you'd already seen that one, as well as the Vancouver Colchester posted elsewhere here but figured I'd post it just in case.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 26, 2022)

The song title says it all....


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

just a reminder...

Still haven't found the lathe my brother is looking for. Seen a lot of possibilities, been catfished on one to be used as a stalking horse, missed two at auction and passed on many more at auction.

This one does present an interesting proposition, it is a Taiwanese lathe, 14x36, only 4" shorter than we wanted. 5HP 2 speed motor, 2" through the bore and very heavy. Comes with taper attachment as well as all the usual bits 'n bobs including nice big 4 jaw chuck. You may know this lathe more as Enco 405Gx1000

Funny thing is that I tried to get my brother to buy this same model in Ajax in October that in hind sight we should have bought because it was only 3K. At the time he hadn't decided on a larger lathe.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> just a reminder...
> 
> Still haven't found the lathe my brother is looking for. Seen a lot of possibilities, been catfished on one to be used as a stalking horse, missed two at auction and passed on many more at auction.
> 
> ...



I forgot the downside of this particular lathe. It cannot be seen running, and would have to be inspected after a 5 hour drive to the lathe and then have to be hauled 5 hours back home, after a supposed 1:30 hour inspection and load time.

In December. Past two potentially horrendous lake effect snow zones.


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## YotaBota (Dec 10, 2022)

If you open the end cover is there access to a drive pulley?


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> If you open the end cover is there access to a drive pulley?


yeah, the motor is mounted low in the pedestal and has 3 belts going up to the pulley connecting the gear train to the motor


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## YotaBota (Dec 10, 2022)

Would a setup like this work for you? It wouldn't be under load but you could run it thru the gears and and see if it's quiet. This is just a
 120v 1/2hp on a light switch for on/off.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Would a setup like this work for you? It wouldn't be under load but you could run it thru the gears and and see if it's quiet. This is just a
> 120v 1/2hp on a light switch for on/off.
> View attachment 28778


Yes something like that would likely work! If we decide to go this route I have just the motor to bring


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> How long til I get banned if I were to post every day asking "WHO THE HECK HAS MY LATHE!!!!?"
> 
> I'd hope that I'd annoy someone enough to locate a Colchester Student 2500 13x40 for me before I got banned.... or a Harrison M300 13x40 of course.
> 
> ...


I have one... come down and get it.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 10, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> I have one... come down and get it.


Yeah there is a 1436 down there we would take instead....


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## Upnorth (Dec 11, 2022)

Keep your eyes on the federal government surplus site. It's where I got my Harrison 13x40 lathe. Pay particular attention to any missing parts. They are extremly expensive if you have to buy new ones. The one I bought was missing it's compound slide, I thought it would be easy to find a new one. It was not. After many months of searching I found one that was supposedly from an M300 but had to be modified to fit my lathe. The description was slightly off so it probably didn't get anyones attention and was not crazy expensive.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Upnorth said:


> Keep your eyes on the federal government surplus site. It's where I got my Harrison 13x40 lathe. Pay particular attention to any missing parts. They are extremly expensive if you have to buy new ones. The one I bought was missing it's compound slide, I thought it would be easy to find a new one. It was not. After many months of searching I found one that was supposedly from an M300 but had to be modified to fit my lathe. The description was slightly off so it probably didn't get anyones attention and was not crazy expensive.


Yeah I search that site daily. 

And yes, I know how hard it is to find missing parts of Colchesters and Harrisons.

We've also decided to broaden our acceptable models in order to be able to get a lathe before Christmas. We decided we're not rocket scientists who need the very best large lathe. Our smaller one should be capable of making small precision parts


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Upnorth said:


> Keep your eyes on the federal government surplus site. It's where I got my Harrison 13x40 lathe. Pay particular attention to any missing parts. They are extremly expensive if you have to buy new ones. The one I bought was missing it's compound slide, I thought it would be easy to find a new one. It was not. After many months of searching I found one that was supposedly from an M300 but had to be modified to fit my lathe. The description was slightly off so it probably didn't get anyones attention and was not crazy expensive.


I can now report that we bought the 1440 Busybee lathe from the GovDeals website at 4:50 pm for the minimum bid of $3500. It will only take about 10 to 15 minutes to drive it home versus 10 hours for the lathe we'd been considering in Windsor at nearly the same price.

It is new old stock, meaning it was purchased by Durham Region transit for their bus service depot, however the lathe operator went out on disability for 18 months just after the lathe was acquired. It had only been used a handful of times and still has cosmoline on most of the parts. The management locked out the lathe when they discovered that no one else in the shop was licensed machinist. It was never put back in service and just sat there.

All in it was $4200 which does not seem like that great a deal... but it is much much much less than he offered for 3 different Colchesters recently, less in the end than the Windsor Chien Yeh 405Gx1000 once you added transportation costs. Thanks to @Dabbler's comments about some Chinese lathes I was able to convince my brother to inspect this one....

OH and the golden rule is ALWAYS inspect a lathe because you never know what surprises you may expose.


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## Dabbler (Dec 11, 2022)

For new-old-stock you did get an reasonable discount from the 'new' price.  So well done there.  When I looked at the showroom model at the Busy Bee in Calgary, I don't think it was quite as good quality as the Modern version:  but yours might be fine...

inspecting the lathe:

Since it has been 'barely run'  I recommend you do some disassembly and check out -  this will serve you very well in the long run.  Apart from thoroughly  checking and cleaning the headstock gears and enclosure, you will be very well served to check the internals of the apron for grit and shavings left from the manufacturing process.  I'd also relube the QCGB ... just in case.

This is kind of a 2 hour type process, but I'd even do this for a brand new Modern lathe.... just in case.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> For new-old-stock you did get an reasonable discount from the 'new' price.  So well done there.  When I looked at the showroom model at the Busy Bee in Calgary, I don't think it was quite as good quality as the Modern version:  but yours might be fine...
> 
> inspecting the lathe:
> 
> ...


yeah we know that BB is not as good quality wise, having owned one. But it is okay and the discount from new is very good. Additionally, it is cheap enough we can buy the lathe we really want if one comes up again.

We'll tear it down and inspect in much greater detail because being finicky is in our natures. And we distrust BB... now all I need is a taper attachment or to make one if anyone can direct me to plans or such


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## PeterT (Dec 11, 2022)

Re taper attachment, do a search here, lots has been written. The rear angle set bar/follower is the relatively easy part IMO. Its the cross slide feed screw decoupling/coupling that requires some noodling. 
If you can purchase these parts from manufacturer separately, suspect you will be money & time ahead. Or go with ELS if you are electrically savvy. My friend has a Clough42 ELS on his EMCO lathe & it sure is cool. Not just tapers but any kind of thread.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Re taper attachment, do a search here, lots has been written. The rear angle set bar/follower is the relatively easy part IMO. Its the cross slide feed screw decoupling/coupling that requires some noodling.
> If you can purchase these parts from manufacturer separately, suspect you will be money & time ahead. Or go with ELS if you are electrically savvy. My friend has a Clough42 ELS on his EMCO lathe & it sure is cool. Not just tapers but any kind of thread.



I have a buddy and we will be doing an ELS project, but better than the one James did. My brother wont likely go for that on his 1440 if it means any down time. I'd have to figure out how to add encoder wheels to the lathe to maintian manual use for him too


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## PeterT (Dec 11, 2022)

Keep us posted on the ELS. With my rudimentary electrical knowledge, its one of those - 'I can visualize the end result, but not the journey' LOL


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## Degen (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I can now report that we bought the 1440 Busybee lathe from the GovDeals website at 4:50 pm for the minimum bid of $3500. It will only take about 10 to 15 minutes to drive it home versus 10 hours for the lathe we'd been considering in Windsor at nearly the same price.
> 
> It is new old stock, meaning it was purchased by Durham Region transit for their bus service depot, however the lathe operator went out on disability for 18 months just after the lathe was acquired. It had only been used a handful of times and still has cosmoline on most of the parts. The management locked out the lathe when they discovered that no one else in the shop was licensed machinist. It was never put back in service and just sat there.
> 
> ...


That lathe new today is about $9-10k, crazy stupid prices compared to a few years ago.


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## Degen (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> yeah we know that BB is not as good quality wise, having owned one. But it is okay and the discount from new is very good. Additionally, it is cheap enough we can buy the lathe we really want if one comes up again.
> 
> We'll tear it down and inspect in much greater detail because being finicky is in our natures. And we distrust BB... now all I need is a taper attachment or to make one if anyone can direct me to plans or such


Look on Grizzly site for the same looking lathe, parts for the taper attachment should be interchangeble


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I have a buddy and we will be doing an ELS project, but better than the one James did. My brother wont likely go for that on his 1440 if it means any down time. I'd have to figure out how to add encoder wheels to the lathe to maintian manual use for him too


You could make it dual CNC, manual like my 1440, release one lever and it becomes manual again.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> You could make it dual CNC, manual like my 1440, release one lever and it becomes manual again.


I'd need more info on what yours is like... I'd be interested, but my brother would be a hard sell.

Maybe we need a third lathe


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 11, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Re taper attachment, do a search here, lots has been written. The rear angle set bar/follower is the relatively easy part IMO. Its the cross slide feed screw decoupling/coupling that requires some noodling.
> If you can purchase these parts from manufacturer separately, suspect you will be money & time ahead. Or go with ELS if you are electrically savvy. My friend has a Clough42 ELS on his EMCO lathe & it sure is cool. Not just tapers but any kind of thread.


As can mine.


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## Darren (Dec 11, 2022)

@PeterT , I did not know that the Clough42 system could do tapers. Did he modify it to add X axis control?


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## Tom O (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I have a buddy and we will be doing an ELS project, but better than the one James did. My brother wont likely go for that on his 1440 if it means any down time. I'd have to figure out how to add encoder wheels to the lathe to maintian manual use for him too


Would it be possible to have the ELS options but also one on the cross slide makings the tapper attachment mute?


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Would it be possible to have the ELS options but also one on the cross slide makings the tapper attachment mute?


Yes, an ELS and cross slide servo motor would make finding or making a taper attachment a moot point. 

I just don't want to battle my brother to convince him. It's okay too, I now have a slightly longer compound to make tapers with too


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## PeterT (Dec 11, 2022)

Darren said:


> @PeterT , I did not know that the Clough42 system could do tapers. Did he modify it to add X axis control?


Hmmm I may have mispoke, suspect you are right, I may have mixed up with another ELS (Rocketronics) or maybe my buddy was saying he's working on something new? Sorry for any confusion.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Hmmm I may have mispoke, suspect you are right, I may have mixed up with another ELS (Rocketronics) or maybe my buddy was saying he's working on something new? Sorry for any confusion.


My buddy Brian and I have plans for an ELS project once our tachometer and surface feet per minute calculator are done. It will turn tapers, and concave and convex surfaces


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## Darren (Dec 11, 2022)

All good @PeterT . I want an ELS system on my V13 I think.  Rocketronics doesn't ship here last time I checked, and only does metric, so everything would have to be converted to metric, including threads, beforehand.  Clough is single axis only as far as i know.


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## Dabbler (Dec 11, 2022)

@Darren All you need is a paper chart of the common TPI in metric pitch.  Being European, well, they won't do any imperial conversions inside the box (!!). 

So far the most complete ELS seems to be Rocketronics,  The Pro version even has a drilling cycle!


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## Darren (Dec 11, 2022)

The other thing about it is that I want to check one box and order a complete 'kit' . I am not up to speed on steppers, stepper drivers, etc.  Like everything else, I could get obsessed with it and spend months learning everything about it. I just don't have time these days. I want them to say what size is your lathe? Here's the kit you want, you pay now, we send.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @Darren All you need is a paper chart of the common TPI in metric pitch.  Being European, well, they won't do any imperial conversions inside the box (!!).
> 
> So far the most complete ELS seems to be Rocketronics,  The Pro version even has a drilling cycle!


I really like the Rocketronics version, except the price and the encoder pendant.  you need to replace the hand wheels so it feels natural in manual mode


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Darren said:


> The other thing about it is that I want to check one box and order a complete 'kit' . I am not up to speed on steppers, stepper drivers, etc.  Like everything else, I could get obsessed with it and spend months learning everything about it. I just don't have time these days. I want them to say what size is you lathe? Here's the kit you want, you pay now, we send.


That is the ultimate goal of my friend and I... bang here is your complete package, here are your instructional videos and manual. Here is the number of your installation coach if required... I see demand being in the 10x20 to 12x36 lathe market


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## Darren (Dec 11, 2022)

make it happen. I'll test it


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Darren said:


> make it happen. I'll test it


what test bed do you have? I need an idea of the torque required for steppers or servo motors

I'm so glad I made the acquaintance of my friend Brian. He has the skills I lack and an electronics lab in his home, does surface mount stuff in sizes I can't even see. And programming.


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## Dabbler (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I really like the Rocketronics version, except the price and the encoder pendant. you need to replace the hand wheels so it feels natural in manual mode


They have a setting to stop power to the motors,  That way the machine is still fully manual.  No need to take the had wheels off.  Only when power is applied, the pendant is needed...


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That is the ultimate goal of my friend and I... bang here is your complete package, here are your instructional videos and manual. Here is the number of your installation coach if required... I see demand being in the 10x20 to 12x36 lathe market


Hate to be such a downer about this but after almost 2 decades of experience with developing, building and selling ELS kits the one thing you can be sure of is that the market is not what you think it is.  

Also the costs of everything are going up which will include tariff barriers against getting things made in China.   Sure you can get cheap stepper motors and drivers and power supplies but when you start looking at completed kits for say a CNC kit for a mill or lathe that power supply, motor driver, connector set all assembled and ready to go jacks the price way up.  

And then every lathe is different requiring different sensors, switches, motor pulleys etc.  so which lathe will you target first?  You can't afford to make the brackets and mounts by hand.  Must be CNC.  So how many do you make per setup?  For 10 kits?  You sell two and then the other 8 sit until you realize the reason yours isn't selling is because someone else is now making a kit that has one feature different from yours and people are buying into that.

What actually happens is someone decides to make a different one.  They sell the 10 to 25 prototypes they had made and then they are bored with ELS kits and move onto new projects.  No new development.  No long term support. 

It's' a throw away world now.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> They have a setting to stop power to the motors,  That way the machine is still fully manual.  No need to take the had wheels off.  Only when power is applied, the pendant is needed...


OOH I like that.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 11, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Hate to be such a downer about this but after almost 2 decades of experience with developing, building and selling ELS kits the one thing you can be sure of is that the market is not what you think it is.
> 
> Also the costs of everything are going up which will include tariff barriers against getting things made in China.   Sure you can get cheap stepper motors and drivers and power supplies but when you start looking at completed kits for say a CNC kit for a mill or lathe that power supply, motor driver, connector set all assembled and ready to go jacks the price way up.
> 
> ...


Yes I recognize that is all true.

But in the end we are doing the project to convert our own lathes, which was to be our 12x37 and Brians 10x22, and the parts except drives would be common to a range of similar lathes, and we are not looking to be profitable business in this regard, just to serve interested people at the same time

Will there be long term support for ours, nope, but there will be enough to get those that are interested running...

Hell I see a ton of old commercial cnc machines on the market that are basically scrap because lack of support and parts.

Our goal is simple as possible smart lathe... aka servo lathe because homebuilt cnc lathes I've seen all ended up trash


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## Upnorth (Dec 12, 2022)

If you are going to convert 2 axis to CNC control you are pretty much looking at having a CNC lathe. I would at that point looking into replacing the leadscrews with ballscrews to make it work better.


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## Upnorth (Dec 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Yes I recognize that is all true.
> 
> But in the end we are doing the project to convert our own lathes, which was to be our 12x37 and Brians 10x22, and the parts except drives would be common to a range of similar lathes, and we are not looking to be profitable business in this regard, just to serve interested people at the same time
> 
> ...


I'm currently looking for a decent older CNC lathe that requires a control retrofit. Can you tell me where you are seeing them for sale? Preferably in Eastern Canada.


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## Tom O (Dec 12, 2022)

Got one here


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## gerritv (Dec 12, 2022)

Darren said:


> All good @PeterT . I want an ELS system on my V13 I think.  Rocketronics doesn't ship here last time I checked, and only does metric, so everything would have to be converted to metric, including threads, beforehand.  Clough is single axis only as far as i know.


Rocketronics does indeed ship to Canada. I have an ELS Pro on my King KC1022ML and absolutely love it. Example (0.005mm/rev) https://www.instagram.com/p/ClkYPVjMZ2Z/

I built and used a Russian ELS 7e2 for a few months but it was lacking. So are pretty much all the other offerings in one way or another.
Rocketronics is working on inferial for the ELS, I will ping them soon on an ETA. Doing the conversions on a cheat sheet that I would do anyway makes it less effort.

On the Z I use a Nema 23 with 2:1 reduction, I think it is 2.8NM. On X is a whimpy Nema23 with 1:1. My X axis was extended out the back, motor is mounted using WadeO's design. My most ambitious CNC effort so far.


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## gerritv (Dec 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I really like the Rocketronics version, except the price and the encoder pendant.  you need to replace the hand wheels so it feels natural in manual mode



You don't need the pendant, I bought the expansion board (which is inside their pendant) and will be using that with an MPG to do my own things. Check out the expansion board manual on their web site.
My lathe is still fully manual if I so desire, the ELS is there when I need it. No plans to do the full WadeO thing and go feed-by-wire.


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## Darren (Dec 12, 2022)

With the X axis motor out back, how is it in manual mode? Or can you just slip the belt off? I like it, and it would be just as easy to do on my machine.


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## gerritv (Dec 12, 2022)

I disable the stepper driver, (ELS has a button for that) and while you get a detent every 1.8 it is not noticeable in what work I do. I might eventually do a manual disconnect by using pins to connect the pulley with a bushing on the shaft.
The WadeO attchment is overly complex, in hind sight a plate bolted to back of carriage with a bearing for the X extension, and 4 standoffs to mount the motor would be fine. But it was fun doing the CNC thing.

I have tested power parting off with this, works well but still a bit of a pucker factor.


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 13, 2022)

I was reading in about the ELS last night. I did not realize that the Chinese had cheapened out on hobby lathes by dropping the feed bar. I see many that are only with a lead screw. Is this why you would want to do the ELS? I want to introduce a different idea. This might be able to apply to the new style hobby lathes or any conventional lathe.

First of all, I will show the product that I have had for over 12 years. It is a 1440 lathe from CNC Masters in Sunny California. This is an Birmingham Lathe that was converted. (all his machines are imports starting with a (Birmingham). My particular machine was one of the first 1440 lathes he built. It has a 3 HP motor. The new models are 2 HP. Basically how it works is you turn off the feed bar and lead screw, engage a lever, and then use the CNC controlled ballscrews. If you were going to copy this idea I would really consider using a Masso controller instead.

See links below. I will post pictures of the ballscrews and how it is tied in.






						1440 CNC Lathe Machine | CNC Masters
					

The 1440 CNC Lathe has the ability to revert to manual control quickly and efficiently, eliminating the need to write a CNC program for short runs.




					www.cncmasters.com
				








__





						Setup MASSO Lathe
					






					docs.masso.com.au


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## DPittman (Dec 13, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> . I did not realize that the Chinese had cheapened out on hobby lathes by dropping the feed bar. I see many that are only with a lead screw. Is this why you would want to do the ELS?


I think there are good reasons for an ELS regardless of whether a lathe has a feed bar or not and the lack or presence of it wouldn't affect my decision for or against a els. The Chinese were not the first to drop the feed bar/rod, there were north American made lathe many many years ago that did it.  I had an Altlas lathe that used the leadscrew for any powered carriage travel.  My present Asian made lathe also does not have a separate feed bar/rod but has a much improved design in that it is a keyed lead screw and the threads on the lead screw and half nuts are only used in threading.  All other carriage and cross slide power feed is done through the key of the lead screw with no wear and tear on the threads of the lead screw and half nuts.


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 13, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I think there are good reasons for an ELS regardless of whether a lathe has a feed bar or not and the lack or presence of it wouldn't affect my decision for or against a els. The Chinese were not the first to drop the feed bar/rod, there were north American made lathe many many years ago that did it.  I had an Altlas lathe that used the leadscrew for any powered carriage travel.  My present Asian made lathe also does not have a separate feed bar/rod but has a much improved design in that it is a keyed lead screw and the threads on the lead screw and half nuts are only used in threading.  All other carriage and cross slide power feed is done through the key of the lead screw with no wear and tear on the threads of the lead screw and half nuts.


I see the historical lathes did not have a feed bar. This must have been an innovation when it came in, as it changed the need for change gears. Now, putting a slot through a feed-screw may improve functionality, but it is still a cheapened down machine.


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## DPittman (Dec 13, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> I see the historical lathes did not have a feed bar. This must have been an innovation when it came in, as it changed the need for change gears. Now, putting a slot through a feed-screw may improve functionality, but it is still a cheapened down machine.


I'm not sure why you say it would change the need for change gears? Or are you referring to the ELS?  I too initially thought of the keyed lead screw as cheapened down machine but now see it as a rather smart and efficient way to keep costs and complexities down when possible.  The only slightly down side I can think of offhand is that there would be more wear on the bearings of the lead screw as it rotates anytime any sort of power feed is needed where as the feed bar system splits that wera and tear between two components.  Can you think of other downsides?


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 13, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I'm not sure why you say it would change the need for change gears? Or are you referring to the ELS?  I too initially thought of the keyed lead screw as cheapened down machine but now see it as a rather smart and efficient way to keep costs and complexities down when possible.  The only slightly down side I can think of offhand is that there would be more wear on the bearings of the lead screw as it rotates anytime any sort of power feed is needed where as the feed bar system splits that wera and tear between two components.  Can you think of other downsides?


Removing part of the radial engagement on the thread and potential of a burr forming come to mind... Here is the video that made me aware that some don't have a feed-bar.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 13, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> I was reading in about the ELS last night. I did not realize that the Chinese had cheapened out on hobby lathes by dropping the feed bar. I see many that are only with a lead screw. Is this why you would want to do the ELS? I want to introduce a different idea. This might be able to apply to the new style hobby lathes or any conventional lathe.
> 
> First of all, I will show the product that I have had for over 12 years. It is a 1440 lathe from CNC Masters in Sunny California. This is an Birmingham Lathe that was converted. (all his machines are imports starting with a (Birmingham). My particular machine was one of the first 1440 lathes he built. It has a 3 HP motor. The new models are 2 HP. Basically how it works is you turn off the feed bar and lead screw, engage a lever, and then use the CNC controlled ballscrews. If you were going to copy this idea I would really consider using a Masso controller instead.
> 
> ...




That's basically the same model that my brother just picked up.

I'm going to show him this... If we get down your way early in the spring would you give us a tour of your shop and the rundown on your lathe?


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 13, 2022)

Yes.  My South Bend Heavy 10L with taper attachment is clearly a _cheapened_ down machine with a single slotted lead screw and rack and pinion for the large hand wheel.  Mine is even the cheaper model with a single lever gear box rather than dual.  It was made in 1942 sold to the military in Edmonton and there is wear on the ways.  I haven't engaged the gearbox in probably 8 years now.
My ELS can do metric threads.

_*"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"*_



			Electronic Lead Screw Main Page


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## Darren (Dec 13, 2022)

John, do you sell complete kits, or is it more of a DIY open source type of thing?


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 13, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Yes.  My South Bend Heavy 10L with taper attachment is clearly a _cheapened_ down machine with a single slotted lead screw and rack and pinion for the large hand wheel.  Mine is even the cheaper model with a single lever gear box rather than dual.  It was made in 1942 sold to the military in Edmonton and there is wear on the ways.  I haven't engaged the gearbox in probably 8 years now.
> My ELS can do metric threads.
> 
> _*"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"*_
> ...


I said that I noticed the OLD lathes only had the leadscrew. The feed bar was an innovation. Now they are reverting back with a modification by putting a slot through the leadscrew... I don't call old technology "cheapened down"... I call reverting back to save costs cheaping down.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 13, 2022)

Darren said:


> John, do you sell complete kits, or is it more of a DIY open source type of thing?


I'd be interested in getting the price for a completed module where I don't have to do any soldiering or programming of a chip. 

If the price is right I'd consider buying one just to test it out... I keep seeing cheap 12" lathes now, I could potentially put one in my basement just for turning engravers and such


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 13, 2022)

I just changed the price list link in the web page to $150 for assembled and tested.  No programming.  It's turnkey other than you have to put in in a box and make a keypad overlay.  I'm just working out what it costs me to do this.  There are instructions on the groups.io site for making them.  Or I'll walk you through it.  Each one is tested by plugging into my Gingery Lathe and running through the operations.

One of the other group members created a 3D printed box with inset labels for it.  This was a group project where other members contributed either parts or support or even software changes.

These have been in production since 2008.  I had 200 boards assembled for the surface mount pick and place parts.  I bought enough parts to make all 200 except I buy the processors and connectors as I need them.  Even so I laid out $18,957 back in 2008.  The first 25 kits went for component cost.  After that I raised the price by $25 to cover the incidentals.  I have about 80 left.

BTW, I only added the stuff below in my posting because it seems it's alright for Aburg Rapid Prototype to advertise with large block letters in his postings.

_*"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"*_

 
            Electronic Lead Screw Main Page


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 13, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I just changed the price list link in the web page to $150 for assembled and tested.  No programming.  It's turnkey other than you have to put in in a box and make a keypad overlay.  I'm just working out what it costs me to do this.  There are instructions on the groups.io site for making them.  Or I'll walk you through it.  Each one is tested by plugging into my Gingery Lathe and running through the operations.
> 
> One of the other group members created a 3D printed box with inset labels for it.  This was a group project where other members contributed either parts or support or even software changes.
> 
> ...


well I can make a box and put on an overlay... $150 bucks is pretty painless to experiment. does that include free shipping


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 13, 2022)

One other point that may not be clear about my ELS compared to the Arduino based units.  Mine, like MACH3 uses a single pulse per rev on the spindle.  At the time people were using surplus printer sensors.  I have a Hall sensor and a small magnet on my South Bend and a disk with slot on my Gingery.  

So my ELS cannot track a hand turned spindle.  Minimum RPM is around 25.  Max RPM for the tiny lathes is 6000 RPM which the Arduino units cannot do.

Also if you remove the DB25 from the back of the ELS (the one that goes to the Break Out Board, stepper drivers, 1PPR sensor and switches) and plug it into an older PC running MACH3 you have full CNC.  For that one project where you need CNC.  The designer of MACH2/3 also contributed to the ELS project.

I have started working on a 32 bit processor based ELS with full encoder support.  The code conversion is really easy  from 8 bit to 32 bit and runs more than 10x as fast.  Other projects surfaced and moved this one back to #42.  It would end up being a small module that plugs in place of the 40 pin DIP processor.




_*"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"*_
             Electronic Lead Screw Main Page


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> well I can make a box and put on an overlay... $150 bucks is pretty painless to experiment. does that include free shipping


Shipping in Canada used to be about $18.  Now it's over $25 including their fuel surcharges.  Kind of shocking considering again, from China a similar sized package worth $100 ships for free.  Yet another way to drive out domestic production.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 13, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Shipping in Canada used to be about $18.  Now it's over $25 including their fuel surcharges.  Kind of shocking considering again, from China a similar sized package worth $100 ships for free.  Yet another way to drive out domestic production.


I tend to try to stick with a small flat rate box whenever I need to ship but yeah it's about 23 bucks.... 

The last letter I sent never got to its destination via Canada Post. I used a "permanent" stamp. It had cash inside...  but no politics so I can't say more


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## Dabbler (Dec 13, 2022)

John I just read your manual and I am very impressed.  I love the fact you've put in both metric and imperial threading - something Rocketronics seems to be reluctant to do.  I'm not in a 'gotta haveit rightaway' mode but I think I'd love to get the 32 bit full encoder version when it becomes available.  I may try one of your current versions "when I have the time".

Very impressive!


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Dec 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That's basically the same model that my brother just picked up.
> 
> I'm going to show him this... If we get down your way early in the spring would you give us a tour of your shop and the rundown on your lathe?


Here are the photos of how the lather is both conventional and CNC. See the lever shifts back and forth for the different modes. The "X" axis motor is behind the cross-slide. I am in the middle of restoring this machine and so forgive me for the dirt and surface rust. The machine has sat for a number of years while I worked on Molds.
@TorontoBuilder


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 13, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> John I just read your manual and I am very impressed.  I love the fact you've put in both metric and imperial threading - something Rocketronics seems to be reluctant to do.  I'm not in a 'gotta haveit rightaway' mode but I think I'd love to get the 32 bit full encoder version when it becomes available.  I may try one of your current versions "when I have the time".
> 
> Very impressive!


Thank you.  It is the culmination of the work and help and contributions of a number of people over more than a year.  Using it is like using your lathe manually for the most part.

I'm currently working on tracking the spindle center line more than just for SFM rather than RPM and adding a tool table.  The RS232 port on all of them, although not used in the past, now serves as the method of updating firmware and will ultimately also allow controlling a VFD for spindle speed to be able to face at a constant SFM.  Project #42...

Originally I wanted to use a TI Digital Signal Processor and even went as far as to make a companion board for an F2812 processor demo board.  But the compiler and IDE for programming were expensive and the group talked me into using the free PIC compiler and MPLAB.  My first prototypes also has a surface mount processor and at that point I had enough boards for my own use.

But I redid it for the DIP processor and spent gobs of money.    I've used it for a coil winder to track number of turns.  I've run it as a power feed controller for the knee on my mill.  Handy to move it out of the way and then return automatically to the same spot.  And of course as a division master for my smaller rotary table.  All the symmetrical parts for the CNC router were done with that.


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## Janger (Dec 15, 2022)

@jcdammeyer Hey John - looking at your ELS kit - are there other things that need to be added? MPG dial, power supply, project box, stepper motor? and ?


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> @jcdammeyer Hey John - looking at your ELS kit - are there other things that need to be added? MPG dial, power supply, project box, stepper motor? and ?


Yes.  It was a kit designed to save the end user money by sourcing many parts locally in their country.  I sold very few in Canada.  Others went to Australia, UK, Europe, South Africa etc.  To ship motors to Canada and then reship to another country was by consensus way too expensive.

So users bought the following themselves.
1. 12V AC adaptor for the ELS
2. Appropriate power supply for their motor systems 
3. Appropriate motor, couplers or belts and pulleys etc for their unique system.
4. Either optical or hall sensor for the 1 PPR spindle.
5. A box of some sort for the ELS and for their motor hardware.
6. I was selling keypad overlays.  A friend on Saltspring made a silk screen for the white mask.  I can now provide that here since I have the laminater and laser printer.
7.  Also recommended was some sort of break out board to simplify swapping back and forth between a PC for MACH3 or LinuxCNC and the ELS.  This way you can have an quadrature encoder connected to the lathe but use a 1 PPR index pulse for the ELS and MACH3 but full quadrature for LinuxCNC if wanted.
Note that to combat electrical noise the ELS requires a long index pulse rather than that short one from full quadrature encoders.  There are ways to make that work though.

I now supply a 3D printed knob for the MPG.    It's a detented 16 pulse per rev (64 units per rev in quadrature) with a momentary button when you press down on it.  You can select 00.001 or 0.010 etc for distance per click.  I bought enough of those to make all 200 boards.  A few years ago that model of encoder was discontinued so a new PC board would be required anyway.  

Or, since there's a spot on the board for a keypad connector one could built the board without the buttons and make a separate board that has more than 35 buttons and a panel mounted MPG.  The LCD pinout is also designed for up to a 4 line unit but that does require other software.  

I built just this one to demo the concept.  Haven't looked further into LCD displays with 4 lines.  Between the ENTER and the L-JOG button is the keyboard expansion strip.  Wires or header pins could be soldered where the MPG goes for an external encoder from China.

It's no longer worth the money to put the stepper motor driver right on the PC board.





One project I did with it added this relay and optically isolated input board.  Also had A/D and stationary  battery current sensor.  It plugged into the jumper block on the bottom of the ELS.




And was designed to also run stand alone with it's own processor and RS232 + CAN bus connection.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 15, 2022)

Oh one other thing.  Unless you dive into the software it's not really mentioned anywhere that the menu system on the ELS is tree structured with 4 branches representing the 4 'soft keys' below the display.  So each of the branches can either point to another branch with 1 to 4 more branches with appropriate text above each 'soft key' or be a final value with type number or flag.

So adding features isn't horrendously complicated.  Add more branches to the tree and you suddenly have more menu entries.  In that menu is a link to the new code to do something with it.  That's why it was so easy to design that Generator Charge Controller with fewer buttons and totally different menus etc.

Remotely start and stop an ONAN generator.  Switch on remotely the contacter to connect the battery bank to the system.




This project didn't even need the 'soft key' buttons under the display.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Yes.  It was a kit designed to save the end user money by sourcing many parts locally in their country.  I sold very few in Canada.  Others went to Australia, UK, Europe, South Africa etc.  To ship motors to Canada and then reship to another country was by consensus way too expensive.
> 
> So users bought the following themselves.
> 1. 12V AC adaptor for the ELS
> ...


IMO one of the biggest barriers is leaving so much to the end user.

Many people who would otherwise be interested dont have or want to develop soldering skills. Nor do they want to figure out break out boards etc. Plug and play is a necessity for wider adoption rates. The german fellows seem to get that pretty well


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 15, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> IMO one of the biggest barriers is leaving so much to the end user.
> 
> Many people who would otherwise be interested dont have or want to develop soldering skills. Nor do they want to figure out break out boards etc. Plug and play is a necessity for wider adoption rates. The german fellows seem to get that pretty well


Problem is you have to go back in time to see why things were done this way.  
In 2006 a stepper motor driver was over $100US.  The motors were also in the $80 to $120 range.  

If I wanted a hi res encoder on my South Bend it had to have a 1.65" bore to be able to mount onto the outside of the spindle hub.  Pulleys and belts large enough to do that were also in the high end dollars.  
Now I did find a large encoder disk with I think 360 lines for only $75 US.  Very exciting until I found I had to order 100 of them...  Standard panel mount encoders were running from $100 surplus to $800 new.

And the PIC family of processors I was using back then didn't handle quadrature.  The ELS has the software and did have the chips to have a microstepper driver built in giving 1600 steps per rev and getting rid of stepper motor resonance.  But now the chips cost more than a far east driver.

If next year China decides to invade Taiwan and the US decides to defend the ramifications of cheap hardware from the far east goes down the toilet.

One of the products I manufacture now has a full 1 year lead time on the M9S12 processor.  My client is willing to let me remove them from other hardware and build onto theirs.  When you make a piece of equipment worth $1 million per unit and it's held up by what used to be a $18 processor that now costs $65 and takes a year to get attitudes change.


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## gerritv (Dec 15, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> IMO one of the biggest barriers is leaving so much to the end user.
> 
> Many people who would otherwise be interested dont have or want to develop soldering skills. Nor do they want to figure out break out boards etc. Plug and play is a necessity for wider adoption rates. The german fellows seem to get that pretty well


Yep, Rocketronics have thought through the connection methods for the most part. But the Rocketronics, like all the other options available, still requires you to decide how to mount the motors and connect to machine axis. And you still need to decide which motors and drivers to buy. Bigger motors is not alwyas better so a bit of decision making, guessing and hoping are required. And you won't know until you try it and have tuned the paramaters whether you got it close enough. And until you try 10tpi or coarser threads you still won't be sure in my experience with 2 different controllers.
And chances are you  need to drill holes in lathe or machine leadscrew extentions etc.
I can see coming up with a kit for a specific style of machine, e.g the ubiquitous G0602/G0752/PM/King 1022 lathes as there mostly the same. But that setup won't work the same for e.g. a Standard Modern 2000.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 15, 2022)

gerritv said:


> Yep, Rocketronics have thought through the connection methods for the most part. But the Rocketronics, like all the other options available, still requires you to decide how to mount the motors and connect to machine axis. And you still need to decide which motors and drivers to buy. Bigger motors is not alwyas better so a bit of decision making, guessing and hoping are required. And you won't know until you try it and have tuned the paramaters whether you got it close enough. And until you try 10tpi or coarser threads you still won't be sure in my experience with 2 different controllers.
> And chances are you  need to drill holes in lathe or machine leadscrew extentions etc.
> I can see coming up with a kit for a specific style of machine, e.g the ubiquitous G0602/G0752/PM/King 1022 lathes as there mostly the same. But that setup won't work the same for e.g. a Standard Modern 2000.


I even went into BusyBee Tools and tried to talk to them about making a kit for I think their 8x24 metal lathe.  They weren't interested or they just didn't have the authority to even attempt/promote something like that.  

Thing is, the Busy Bee, KMS and KBC lathes all come with gears to do metric and imperial threading so they don't really need an ELS because a DRO is just as good.  

The original purpose of my ELS was to add metric threading to imperial lathes or add thread pitches for which there were no gears; my Gingery home made lathe for example.  The cross slide control and tapering came in the second revision after many of the users on the group wanted that feature.  And that's something I've not yet added to my South Bend.


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## DPittman (Dec 15, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Thing is, the Busy Bee, KMS and KBC lathes all come with gears to do metric and imperial threading so they don't really need an ELS because a DRO is just as good.


My lathe has the ability to thread both metric and imperial threads with the change gears and I also have a DRO but I'd still love an ELS.  How is a DRO as good as a els?  Not trying to be arrogant here I'm just learning.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 15, 2022)

That's a really good question.  Really good!

Another good one is if I have an ELS on the South Bend Carriage why not on the cross slide?  The South Bend has a mechanical Taper Attachment and power cross feed driven from the same slotted lead screw.  

This hub was within the reach of the compound slide travel but I think the carriage and taper attachment left a nicer finish.





So most operations can be done with existing hardware.   And if you have one of these:




Blind holes to exact depth only require the setup and then release the half nut or clutch on time and turn the last bit with the hand wheel up to the micrometer end stop.

What I like about my ELS is that when I bore a blind hole it stops.  I can turn up to the collet or chuck jaws and have it stop instantly.  When I thread it stops without me having to be lightening fast on the half nut. 

When I face the end and then want to turn to a shoulder at 1.25" I set the Z=0.000  where I faced and set the END position at -1.250".  The BEGIN just in front of the face say 0.2" to give the system time to get up to speed and take out backlash.

But on my lathe it's unlikely it's exactly 1.250" and without a DRO I wouldn't know because my lead screw and ways are worn.  Cutting the 10 TPI ACME thread for my Gingery Lathe Lead screw I had to tweak the cross slide as the carriage traveled along the 16" or so.  Just to try and keep the depth of cut constant.

Yes, my ELS has DRO output but it's based on how far the motor has moved the lead screw.  Not how far the lead screw has mechanically moved the carriage.  I'm finding that issue on my mill too.  My Shumatech DRO tells me when LinuxCNC has not taken out the backlash correctly.  Would I be without LinuxCNC now?  
Nope.


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## Susquatch (Dec 16, 2022)

DPittman said:


> How is a DRO as good as a els?



I "THINK" one of the many things that @jcdammeyer was trying to say is that you can do the same things with both - it might take a bit longer manually though.

I am a hobbiest. Ya, my farm and even my neighbours farms need my machining and other skills, but they are not my bread and butter. Unlike many others, my time is not an issue either. I enjoy machining and I don't do production runs so I really don't care how long it takes me to make something. And if I enjoy doing it, why would I let a computer do it for me and take my fun away?

I know that I'm a minority here, but I even like changing gears to cut threads. Cutting a new thread pitch is just another opportunity to change my gears! Woooo Hoooo!

As an old man and a hobbiest, I look at life a bit differently than some. CNC & ELS are both wonderful tools. But I've been able to do everything they could have done for me without them so far. I have simply learned to enjoy the manual journey as much as those who have CNC & ELS enjoy the time these electronic wonders give them to do something else.

Maybe that's oversimplifying, but that's how I feel about it and I think that's sorta what @jcdammeyer was getting at too.

Of course, some smart ass is gunna come up with a huge giant list of all the things you can do with CNC & ELS and can't do manually. Like a 16.6 tpi thread pitch, etc etc. Until the day comes when I need that, I really don't care. More importantly, I don't want to care. The truth is that I don't expect to live long enough to care either.


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 16, 2022)

I must disagree Susquatch, i do not like mucking about with change gears. My big lathe has a gear box for threads and feed rates, i don't have a need for speed when i'm machining but 'tis a whole lot more convenient than trying to read a chart then fitting gears to greasy shafts. Just my opinion and worth what i was paid for it. Things would be very boring if we all had the same thought process.


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## gerritv (Dec 16, 2022)

Some good points. Indeed most hobby-sized Asian lathes can do m and i threadng. But once set up for threading, it is useless for feeding and vice versa. As a result, due to my 'work' pattern, I never used power feed. Tapers were limited to short ones, if I took the time to put my compund back on. And the coarser the pitch, the more passes and too often opportunity to mess up.
Even with the not-so-totally-great Russian ELS I could move from one op method to another with a few buttons. so now power feed was in my arsenal. Now with the Rocketronics I have boring, threading, parting, tapers, ball (convex and concave). carriage drilling, keyway cutting (drilling cycle with spindle locked), and all of these to a set diameter and distance with control over DOC and passes. Internal threading to a shoulder is now possible, my reaction time was too often too short.

All things I could do with just my DRO or even dials and a carriage stop but as I get to making smaller and smaller parts, the less I can emery cloth things to dimension 
To keep my interest in full manual I have 2 watchmaker lathes and a Taig so I won't forget those skills  I only started machining in earnest 6 years ago, and at my age it is too late to develop full manual skills, and my arthritic hands make it a bigger challenge every year. This is for my why ELS of any kind or brand keeps things possible.

The only downside so far with the Rocketronics is metric only, but they confirmed after asking that the inferial feature is being finalized over the Christmas break.


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## historicalarms (Dec 16, 2022)

The feed speed transmission on my lathe is one of the features that gets used often in a session, I will change feed rates on the go, sometimes multiple times in one pass if i require different quality finish on different parts of a shaft ...change gears would take me forever on some jobs.
     I realize every operators manual published for every lathe built says "don't change gears under power" but it can be done easily without any gear clash or jamming on the cuts i make with my lathe, if your cutting 50 thou at a pass the cut pressure may make it a bit more difficult but for me just pull the pin, slide over and lift until pin falls into hole. firm precise movements will result in no gear clash at all.....if we can shift an 18 sp driven by 600 hp, pulling a 90,000 lb load 150 times a day without using the clutch you damn sure can shift a lathe feed transmission LOL


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## Dabbler (Dec 16, 2022)

Like @gerritv I primarily use manual feed, even though my lathes have very easy options for feeding.  For me it is the tactile feedback and the focus of machining that make it so much fun.  Taking longer isn't a downside, but... In that regard I'm like @Susquatch.

However  I'm interested in ELS, because of eye-hand coordination, and some concerns about concentration as I age.  I've never crashed a lathe, and really don't want the initiation.

Besides I'd love to do the project, purely because it is cool project...  A useful cool project.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 16, 2022)

I agree with what @gerritv is saying.  Especially if the lathe in question requires changing gears to go from turning to threading.  
I didn't want to go through the process of first making the Gingery shaper and then the Gingery mill in order to create the Gingery dividing head to make gears for the Gingery lathe.  Hence my ELS since the only other one out there was the FROG which had been discontinued due to lack of sales.  
You can see in this photo there is one feed speed using the sewing machine O-Ring belts with pulleys right from the Gingery lathe book.  And even there I modified the original with a parallel set of screws to prevent the flat plate from twisting.


			http://www.autoartisans.com/gingery.htm
		

Hence the ELS was a pretty well must have.  As yet I haven't put one on my Unimat DB200 which I only use for tiny things and never for threading.  It doesn't even have power feed.

My South Bend Heavy 10L has spoiled me even if the ways and lead screw are worn.  A single lever gearbox and both clutch for turning speeds and half nut for threading and power cross slide with taper attachment and that micrometer stop means the only thing it was lacking was metric threading.  Hence my ELS on the Z axis for it.

But as @gerritv mentioned, having to change gears for turning verses threading or even just for different turning pitches will head most people over to an electronic gearing system of some sort.  And at some point cost verses replacing the lathe with one more capable enters the picture too.

His ELS can likely with the press of a button and turn of a knob set 0.003" per rev or 0.020" per rev for finish and rough turning.  If you cannot easily do that without physically changing gears then an Electronic gearing or full blown ELS does become more interesting.

My only word of caution is verify the maximum spindle speed the electronic gearing system can handle.  For old iron limited to 1200 RPM it's not a problem.  For a more modern lathe capable of 6000 RPM it may well be.


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## gerritv (Dec 17, 2022)

The Rocketronics is good to 6000 rpm depending on the encoder. At 400ppr you can go to 3000 rpm, needs fewer ppr as the spindle speed goes up. They want you to keep the (ppr * rpm) below 1,200,000 else the control gets over run. Personally I get nervous even with my 5C chuck at > 1600rpm so went with the 400ppr encoder.

It does a finish pass at settable feed rate vs. roughing feed. Still getting my head wrapped around all the features, like John's it can do more than meets the eye. 
I have it set to prevent changing params during operation, might turn that off and see what I can fiddle with during cutting. Also haven't enable the spindle speed control yet, need to verify how well that works with my KBCC125R dc controller. that would give me constant SFM on parting.

I'll be trying out the pulley grooving mode soon to make jack shaft pulleys for one of my watchmaker lathes.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

I'll be the first to state the failings of mine.  
With 1 PPR it's limited to the low end for spindle speed at about 25 RPM.  
The X axis is slaved to the Z axis in that it can't do a higher step rate than the Z axis.  So that limits the taper to 45 degrees and therefore can't do ball turning.
Maximum step rate is 20,000 steps per second.  That's only a limitation with a servo motor.  A stepper motor torque falls way off well before that.  I've played around with the closed loop stepper motors and even they are effectively useless at anything above about 700 RPM due to torque fall off.

The math?  720 RPM is 12 RPS.  At 400 steps per rev with half stepping, which isn't enough to get rid of the resonance dip, that's 4800 steps/sec.  Go to 800 steps per rev or 4 micro-steps it's 9600 steps per second.  The resonance dip is still there but use a big enough motor and it may not slip and lose steps.

In reality the best stepper drivers use a dual micro-step method.  The Gecko's were the first that published that approach.  They use a 10 steps per step rate for 2000 steps per rev.  Using feedback they detect the resonance point and alter the phase of the output relative to the step inputs just enough to mess up resonance so it doesn't happen.  Then once the motor is turning faster than the resonance point they change to I think half stepping or 400 steps per rev up to a higher RPM.  I never did add that feature to my ELS micro-stepper module since the hardware drivers became too expensive.

But the advantage of the Geckos was silky smooth stepping at low speeds and more motor torque at the high speeds once they past the resonance point.  With a 2000 step per rev my ELS can only run the motor at 600 RPM.  

To put that into perspective that's 
1. lead screw pitch threading at 600 spindle RPM
2. 2x lead screw pitch threading at 300 spindle RPM
3. 4x lead screw pitch threading at 150 spindle RPM.

The other major disadvantage of my ELS over directly connected gearing is that once you start a thread you cannot change the spindle RPM.  That's because the ELS can easily do 2,3 of 4 start threads due to the required index pulse (the 1 PPR sensor).

It works like this:  Once the index pulse is detected the assumption is that motor speed is steady and that threading cuts don't overload the motor and change the speed significantly.   History has shown this to be true.

At that index event the Z axis motor is accelerated up to the desired threading speed.  This acceleration is constant and and part of the motor configuration setup.  

Simple physics says to reach that speed a certain distance is covered over a specific period of time.  As long as the tool bit is away from the work it will start cutting at the correct speed and enter the same point because the time it takes to get there results in the spindle turning a certain amount from that index position.

Change that starting position away from the work by 1/2 the thread pitch and the spindle will have turned further before the tool touches it.  Exactly half the pitch.  Now you have a 2 start thread.

So for example.  Say you want a 4 start thread.  Set the ELS to cut 5 TPI which is a pitch of 0.2".  The spindle is up to speed in say 1/4 turn.  Set the BEGIN position to +0.2" away from the edge of the part but set thread depth for 20 TPI.

Now cut a thread and you get a 5 TPI thread but with a depth of a 20 TPI thread.  Change the BEGIN position to +0.25 and cut another 5 TPI thread at 20 TPI depth.

Rinse and repeat for BEGIN set to +0.30" and +0.35".  

You now have a piece that looks at first glance like it's 20 TPI because the threads are 0.050" apart as a thread gauge will verify.  But once you turn a 4 start nut you will see it behaves like a 5 TPI thread.

So why do this?  For small diameter parts it's pretty hard to cut a 5 TPI thread to full depth.

But you can't change the spindle speed during all that because now although the time for the carriage to accelerate up to speed remains the same, the spindle doesn't turn the same distance and you no longer enter the part at the same point.


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## Susquatch (Dec 17, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I'll be the first to state the failings of mine.
> With 1 PPR it's limited to the low end for spindle speed at about 25 RPM.
> The X axis is slaved to the Z axis in that it can't do a higher step rate than the Z axis.  So that limits the taper to 45 degrees and therefore can't do ball turning.
> Maximum step rate is 20,000 steps per second.  That's only a limitation with a servo motor.  A stepper motor torque falls way off well before that.  I've played around with the closed loop stepper motors and even they are effectively useless at anything above about 700 RPM due to torque fall off.
> ...



Very nice discussion John. I enjoyed that very very much. Gives me a much better idea of how the system works.

Also reminds me of my old days developing automotive sensors and control systems. I have not done that in many years. Not sure I could anymore.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Very nice discussion John. I enjoyed that very very much. Gives me a much better idea of how the system works.
> 
> Also reminds me of my old days developing automotive sensors and control systems. I have not done that in many years. Not sure I could anymore.


Thanks.
Remember you can do this with a half nut and thread indicator for many of the pitches too.   Recall for threading sometimes you must engage the half nut on the threading indicator same number for each pass.
But if you set it up right then choosing # 1 and #3 will give you a 2 start thread.  Been years since I did it that way.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Also reminds me of my old days developing automotive sensors and control systems. I have not done that in many years. Not sure I could anymore.


Yeah been ages since I did the ignition system for the Honda VTEC engines used in hovercraft and experimental aircraft.

With respect to stepper motors recall the engine ignition world.  Put voltage a cross a coil of wire (the ignition coil or one of the two stepper motor coils) and current doesn't flow right away.   The inductance of the coil prevents instant current so it takes time to get to full rated current.  

If you think of that in terms of an electromagnet it also takes a bit of time before full current and full magnetism.  BTW, change the voltage but still limit the current to the rated value and the current builds up faster.  That's why often in older cars the ignition coils were actually 8 volts and had a series resistor.  For cold cranking the lowered battery voltage that might well drop to 8V still created a solid spark.  But once the ignition key was released to the run position the resistor went in series with the coil to drop some of the now back to normal battery voltage.

And of course that spark is created by the current in the coil being stopped.  The collapsing magnetic field is like a generator and creates a much higher voltage in the 12 volt coil.  Which is stepped up to the 15Kv and up voltage to the spark plugs.  And even that takes time for that to happen.

Now picture that stepper motor winding.  It's a 3V winding but the stepper motor driver uses 36V.  That higher voltage means the time to full current (say 3A) takes 1 millisecond.  To make the magnet on the rotor move the direction of the magnetic field has to reverse.  So first you have to take that 3A and reduce it to zero and then change it to -3A.  All that takes time because of the inductance.

Pretend for this example it also takes 1mS to do this.  That means you can change the direction 1000 times per second.  

What happens if you want to change the direction 2000 times per second?  It just means you don't get up to the 3A before it's time to change to the target -3A.  And 4000 times per second?  Even worse for reaching the 3A current.

And what's important about that current?  The amount of magnetism.  Or more simply said motor torque is based on Amps x Turns.  Keep the number of turns in the winding the same but reduce the amps and you get lower torque.  Which is one of the reasons why stepper motors lose torque at higher step rates.

There is one other reason too which DC motors also suffer from.  Ever wondered why if you took that old Eldon Slot card motor rated for 6V and change the power supply to your dad's 12V battery charger that the cars went faster?  (Usually off the track).

Well when a DC motor spins it's also a generator.  The voltage created by this generator part of the motor is the opposite polarity of the driving voltage.  The top speed of the motor when 6 volts is applied is when that generator part of the motor creates -6V.  Change to 12V and now the motor turns faster until again the generator (what's called back emf) equals the applied voltage.

So there's the other issue with all motors but worse with stepper motors.  Once it's spinning it's also a generator.  So that higher drive voltage is required to push back on the generated voltage to get the current flowing through the winding in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

Hope that all makes sense.


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## Susquatch (Dec 17, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Hope that all makes sense.



Perfect sense to me John. 

I spent the first 10 years of my career designing electronic control systems and then microprocessor control systems to replace the old electro mechanical devices of the auto industry from the pre-transistor age.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

Oh and I realize it's totally off topic but when I mentioned Eldon Slot car set only the really old guys on this list will remember how bad the tracks actually fit together and how bumpy they were at the transitions.\








						Eldon Slot Car in Canada - Kijiji Canada
					

Find "Eldon Slot Car" in Canada - Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy or sell, new & used items. Explore Canada's #1 Classifieds.




					www.kijiji.ca


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## Tom O (Dec 17, 2022)

Eldon slot cars! Wow that was like 60 years ago I don’t know how many times I took the lap counter apart to fix it.


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## whydontu (Dec 17, 2022)

And the overpass supports always collapsed


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## Dabbler (Dec 17, 2022)

Eldon slot cars were for the far better off kids.  Never held one or its track.


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## DPittman (Dec 17, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Eldon slot cars were for the far better off kids.  Never held one or its track.


Ya I've never heard of them maybe they were before my time.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Eldon slot cars were for the far better off kids.  Never held one or its track.


My Dad survived the Japanese camps and working on the Burma Railroad coming back to a devastated Netherlands.  As immigrants with nothing, I recall him working evenings and weekends pumping gas at a service station for extra money to be able to afford a couple of strings of Christmas lights for the house.   

Perhaps my grandfather contributed to my Eldon Figure 8 Slot Car set but with 3 siblings I'd not consider our family a "far better off kids".   Or maybe my parents sacrificed things for themselves to provide for their kids?

And before Canadian Health care they likely had to pay whatever costs were incurred  when their son contracted Meningitis and spend time in Hospital: twice!


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## Dabbler (Dec 17, 2022)

We weren't destitute;  After slot racing became really big, my Dad made a slot car track out of the soft board made of paper - sort of a soft particleboard.  12V car battery, and resistive controllers.  

So we skipped the plastic track phase.  I think my Dad thought they were too expensive.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 17, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> We weren't destitute;  After slot racing became really big, my Dad made a slot car track out of the soft board made of paper - sort of a soft particleboard.  12V car battery, and resistive controllers.
> 
> So we skipped the plastic track phase.  I think my Dad thought they were too expensive.


I never had room to have any decent size slot car track, si I skipped the plastic tracks too. But we had a slot car club in a strip mall in Scarborough that was huge and didn't suffer any such failures so a half dozen or so cars


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## cjmac (Dec 17, 2022)

I remember putting all the (plastic track) straight sections together to make a drag strip and powering both slots with 12v on a single toggle switch. Stage the two cars, flip the switch and watch them go. I think I had a pillow at the end to stop the cars.

Chris


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

cjmac said:


> I remember putting all the (plastic track) straight sections together to make a drag strip and powering both slots with 12v on a single toggle switch. Stage the two cars, flip the switch and watch them go. I think I had a pillow at the end to stop the cars.
> 
> Chris


I did the same but I made a ramp at the 3/4 point and then sat with my Instamatic 50 camera and took photos of the cars flying through the air.  I think I got one good one.  If i ever find it I'll scan it and post.


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## DPittman (Dec 17, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I did the same but I made a ramp at the 3/4 point and then sat with my Instamatic 50 camera and took photos of the cars flying through the air.  I think I got one good one.  If i ever find it I'll scan it and post.


Now talk about the "better off kids"  Slot cars and a camera to boot!  I hope you do find that picture and you should for sure digitalize it to keep a copy of it safe.   And do post it here!


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 17, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Now talk about the "better off kids"  Slot cars and a camera to boot!  I hope you do find that picture and you should for sure digitalize it to keep a copy of it safe.   And do post it here!


Note I mentioned Instamatic 50.  Those weren't sold in North America where the Instamatic 100 was the camera to buy.  That one included a pop up flash for the flash bulbs.  Mine had a shoe to slide a flash unit onto it.  Was a number of years before I got the flash.

My parents took the family to The Netherlands for a month long holiday partially paid for by my Grandfather as I remember it.  We flew DC7 to Greenland, got out and the aircraft was refueled before continuing on to Schiphol in Amsterdam.   All I remember is walking around on the tarmac in Greenland and also puking on the airplane.  

That summer I turned 10 years old and my Grandfather refused to give me the camera as an early present.  So it wasn't until the last 5 days of our trip that I had a camera with I think 1 cartrdigeof black and white film which is all they could afford.









						Kodak Instamatic 50 camera | Science Museum Group Collection
					

Solid body camera for 126 cartridge film 26x26mm. Meniscus lens, fixed aperture. Two speed shutter bright/hazy sun-flash. Direct vision optical finder. Lever wind. Shoe flash contacts. Overall: 62 mm x 105 mm x 50 mm.




					collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 18, 2022)

Never got a slot car or any other type of race setup. Got shotguns and rifles.


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## gerritv (Dec 18, 2022)

My slot cars were HO scale and ran on a friends track.
Like John's parents, we arrived in Canada in 1953 from NL with very little. My parents did everything to give us a good upbrining and along the way I learned to appreciate what I have. I have some relatives including 2 children in graves in Java, died near end of WWII in a Japanese internment camp. My parents survived WWII in Amsterdam. We came to Canada for opportunites, and found them. Hard work, extra jobs on the side etc. but a good life.

Not having much money, we built our own HO layout, laid track with those tiny hooked nails, made scenery and after finding the money for 1 switch, we made our own from then on 

pic is 196x's of 2 friends, me in right back and my dad under the 4'x16' table after fixing some wiring.


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## historicalarms (Dec 18, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> My Dad survived the Japanese camps and working on the Burma Railroad coming back to a devastated Netherlands.  As immigrants with nothing, I recall him working evenings and weekends pumping gas at a service station for extra money to be able to afford a couple of strings of Christmas lights for the house.
> 
> Perhaps my grandfather contributed to my Eldon Figure 8 Slot Car set but with 3 siblings I'd not consider our family a "far better off kids".   Or maybe my parents sacrificed things for themselves to provide for their kids?
> 
> And before Canadian Health care they likely had to pay whatever costs were incurred  when their son contracted Meningitis and spend time in Hospital: twice!


  I knew some people (lived in Calgary at the time) that married in the Netherlands and then went to work in the Dutch East Indies just before the Japanese occupation and both survived the slave labor camps for the duration of the war. Two of the nicest & down to earth people I have ever met.


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## historicalarms (Dec 18, 2022)

Family finances improved by the time my kid brother came around and he got the race cars & track and the snowmobile and the motor bike and the used pick-up and the ........(he still runs a race car but it aint no toy, pretty much a full blown funny car)
   I was like 6.5 got gopher shells, duck shells and a rifle....but I had to finance them all myself with income from stacking bales for neighbors LOL....I could start a school year with $4 runners than mom bought or a new pair of cowboy boots if I bought and paid for them myself, the $15 cowboy  boots won out


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 18, 2022)

Back then I saved my allowance and finally had enough to order a Porsche Carrarra 6 slot car. So exciting.   When I sent the money order I even calculated the FST of 12% and included that.  Turns out that was dumb as I had to pay it again.  Anyway it arrived and that's when I discovered the difference between 1/32 and 24th scale cars.  Didn't really fit on the Eldon track.

Did run it at the public track once downtown but generally the people there weren't very friendly and I wasn't very good.  Went off the track so many times they stopped putting my car back on.

@gerritv was lucky to have something his father did with him.  By mid 60's my father was in full blown undiagnosed PTSD and had trouble going into the basement to try and finish the renovation he'd started.  
In fact it was only after he moved into assisted living that my siblings were able to hire contractors to finish that.


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