# Schaublin 70 Project



## Mcgyver (Dec 14, 2021)

I've been doing a ground up reconditioning on little Schaublin 70 lathe, been at it most of the year.  Another case of how fast I can do it in my head not being well calibrated with my physical world performance.  I've never seen a lathe in worst shape, e.g. you could grab the spindle shaft with your hand and rattle it in the bearings.  However being a Schaublin, there's no more worthy candidate imo for reconditioning.

The tailstock was done by lapping the bore using home made expanding copper laps, up to 1000 grit, then hard chroming and grinding the quill to fit.  There's 2 tenths clearance such that, with a bit of oil on it, if you hold the tailstock vertically, the quill won't drop out.  The slide was a combination of grinding and scraping.  Scraped the horizontal surfaces and ground all the angled dovetail surfaces as they are so small its about impossible to get a scraper in there, and they were short enough to set up on the surface grinder.  One part of the slide assembly was so bad I grabbed a piece of cast iron and made a new one.

The greatest challenge was the spindle.  The bearings were destroyed its the typical watchmakers format of a double 45 and 3 degrees.  This to me is a near impossible machining task and I have not figured out a super elegant way to do so - the challenge being, how to machine to adjacent tapers on a shaft, then have mate with the bearing to a tenth or two clearance?  Whats the diameter of taper?  relative to what?  You've also have the challenge that say a thou difference along the axis in where the 3 degree tapers meet, means about 10 difference in where the 45 degree tapers mate.

How I did it was grind the shaft all over, just kissing it.  Then I lapped the outboard board bearing (a conical arrangement whereby tightening it's nut reduces its diameter).  I then ground a shaft to fit the outboard bearing and tightened the nut until it was clamped in place.  I welded up a fixture for my face plate, and then spent half day shimming and shifting until I got the said ground bar aligned in two planes each to a tenth.  this should let me bore out a pressed in piece of bronze, the new headstock bearing, and have the bore aligned with the outboard bearing.  The taper attached using a sine bar and careful setting was used for the 3 degree taper.  I bored the 3 degree taper, and through test fitting and measuring crept up on the 45.   A lot of work - and thats just the roughing!

That was the mark II attempt.  The first one was a fail as I relied on the alignment of the two headstock bearing bores.  Mistake, they are quit far off.  Schaublin must have pressed the bearings in then bored them and did worry about the headstock cast bores very much.  My lapping of the outboard side could have, and probably did, change its axis slightly, however I measure the original inboard bearing the ID and OD were substantially eccentric.

After "rouging" it was scrape and lap.  The original plan was scraping, but its obviously a real challenge getting in there.  I scraped until I was getting contact in most of the bearing, then lapped.  While lapping tapers is verboten because there is no axial movement between the parts, I eventually discovered that the timesave stuff for use with soft metals would abrade the bronze but would not effect the steel shaft.  The eventual fit came from scraping the 45 (which accessible) until there was good contact with the 3, then lapping both with the finest grade of timesavefs yellow stuff.

As I reground the OD of the spindle shaft, I should regrind the spindle taper to ensure concentricity.  This was a big setup.  Figuring it out and trying different things took me most of a day.  After grinding I'm getting a tenth TIR on the spindle, was hoping for a little better, but given all surfaces on the bearings and shaft are done by me in my in the homeshop, I think its reasonably good

The headstock and tailstock after getting them fit properly, need to have their bottoms scraped to align them both to the bed and each other.  That is mostly done for the headstock, tailstock still needs work

Some photos and video (I'm much better with, and really prefer still photography, but I'm learning how to bore audiences with the best of  them on you tube  )






































finished quill, the diameter is within about 1/2 a tenth end to end using an indicating mic






No that is pooched headstock bearing!  Orginal was hardened steel.  I'm going with bearing bronze (as some did Schuablin on some lathes)



























































indicating the bar - its close, but not touching new bronze bearing - its bascially a perfect extension of the outboard bearing's axis





















Here's a short video of turning the bronze bore....and a long video of grinding the spindle taper and the results


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## Susquatch (Dec 14, 2021)

Very impressive @Mcgyver! Well done!

I think your patience (and courage) outweighs mine by at least an order of magnitude.

I think your video skills are pretty darn good too!


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## RobinHood (Dec 14, 2021)

Awesome work!

I wonder if they used jig borers / grinders to finish the original steel bearings after they had pressed them into the HS casting? One would think that with those kind of machines accuracies of tenths to sub-tenths should be achievable.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 14, 2021)

thanks for kind words gents.

Robin, agreed, they had to be done after pressing in - there was too much eccentricity on the original bearing between ID an OD for it to be otherwise.  No matter how accurate the machine, it doesn't explain how to get the taper right (angle is easy....it is getting the diameter dead on (male and female) at the hypothetical plane the tapers meet at that'll make one crazy - there is no good way to directly measure it and it has to be spot on).   I think they had to be made on a custom made machine that would get set up with some trial and error and master male and female gauges.  Said gauges would be ground almost by fit to each other - thats my theory.  All which is way more than you would want to set up for a one of.  It is frustrating that once, when everyone needed a watch, 1000's of people would have be very familar with this process with the 100 or more lathe manufacturers in existence.  Now it seems we can do little more than guess

There are these images of Boley watchmakers lathe having the bearings done.  cylindrical laps at the two taper angles.   While still challenging, I can see how a dedicated machine could be construction for production.  I still think its incredibly complex to figure out a methodology to accomplish this in a job shop/at home situation.  I haven't succeeded at that as my strategy relied on bronze, scraping and lapping.  That wouldn't  work with the common steel on steel bearing found in 99.9% of watchmakers lathes.  You'd have some chance with hard turning on a CNC, but its still not a lapped finish.  And you can't lap a taper with two hardened pieces (only worked for me because the soft lapping abrasive didn't affect the shaft)

I will never do one like the above again, too much work for the reward.  Its in part to prove I could and in part because there are so many amazing double taper lathes out there (like every watchmakers lathe) I was looking for methodology to fix them (if some knuckle dragger ran them without oil  Grrr).  None exists, the closest being Archie Perkins (wrote a book on using watchmakers lathes) suggestions which are best "kill or cure" and at worst are rather shade tree

If I was faced with this again, it would plunk down some dough for P4 AC's and big block of durabar and have at it.  Probably would use the original shaft and sleeve it.


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 14, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I've been doing a ground up reconditioning on little Schaublin 70 lathe, been at it most of the year....


Nice work. Way above my level.


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## gerritv (Dec 14, 2021)

I think you were trying to link the photos from here? http://www.lathes.co.uk/boley/page7.html . Slick solution.

Gerrit


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 14, 2021)

I resonated with the welding on the faceplate..... the one operation I felt I could probably succeed at in this thread   Great post!


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## RobinHood (Dec 14, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> No matter how accurate the machine, it doesn't explain how to get the taper right (angle is easy....it is getting the diameter dead on (male and female) at the hypothetical plane the tapers meet at that'll make one crazy - there is no good way to directly measure it and it has to be spot on).


Could one use two precision balls of appropriate size (A & B) and measure how deep each one sits in it’s respective taper? It should then be a matter of geometry to figure out the exact required position from a common reference point - like the rear of the bearing. Something like this (sorry for the chicken scratch drawing):


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## PeterT (Dec 14, 2021)

I had to run home from work in the cold because the pictures weren't loading on the employers machine <pant, pant, cough> LOL. Nice work!

What is the grit/abrasive of the white wheel you are getting that nice finish off?


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## Susquatch (Dec 15, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> and at worst are rather shade tree



Many of you guys use that term "shade tree". What does that term mean besides a nice cool breezy spot to sit on a hot sunny day?


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## Mcgyver (Dec 15, 2021)

it refers to someone working on their car under the shade tree rather than in a properly equipped garage.  While that's us (DIY'ers possibly under the shade tree) its  used as a criticism or catagorizing of work using a poor/improper approach that will not get the job done properly.  Like fixing it with a wine cork because you lost the oil drain plug.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 15, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I had to run home from work in the cold because the pictures weren't loading on the employers machine <pant, pant, cough> LOL. Nice work!
> 
> What is the grit/abrasive of the white wheel you are getting that nice finish off?



Thanks Peter.  That is a 150 grit wheel, J if I remember, but will check.  Its only 1/4 inch wide.  It was an experiment that seemed work.  I wanted a great finish with minimal material removal.  I like the narrowness as well, I think it imposes a little less force.  My cylindrical grinder is a tool grinder so is light by cylindrical grinding standards and it has take some experimentation to get performing in the best manner.  There is not a lot cylindrical grinding wisdom readily available (not exactly the longest chapter in the machining text) and what there is, is not geared toward such a light machine


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## Mcgyver (Dec 15, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Could one use two precision balls of appropriate size (A & B) and measure how deep each one sits in it’s respective taper? It should then be a matter of geometry to figure out the exact required position from a common reference point - like the rear of the bearing. Something like this (sorry for the chicken scratch drawing):



thanks for the drawing.  It had been mentioned to me in another discussion and should work for for the female part.  Things are open so you could put parallel acros the back of the bearing and mic over it and the ball.   I suppose you could grind the shaft first, then carefully measure the two tapers (mic over pins say elevated with blocks, with the shaft nose on the surface plate) and do the math on the needed ball spacing.  The issue I would think is lots of sources for error.   I think it will remain academic for me ......really want get this a few other machines done then get back to model engineering


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## Susquatch (Dec 15, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> it refers to someone working on their car under the shade tree rather than in a properly equipped garage.  While that's us (DIY'ers possibly under the shade tree) its a used as a criticism or catagorizing of work using a poor/improper approach that will not get the job done properly.  Like fixing it with a wine cork because you lost the oil drain plug.



I see! Around here, folks call that "Red Neck" or "Farmer". "Hill Billy" or "Red Green" is also a popular reference. Of course, as a farmer myself, I prefer Hill Billy. 

So I can see why my Calgary Colleagues might prefer Shade Tree. But I've never heard that before. 

My learning for the day!


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## DPittman (Dec 15, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I see! Around here, folks call that "Red Neck" or "Farmer". "Hill Billy" or "Red Green" is also a popular reference. Of course, as a farmer myself, I prefer Hill Billy.
> 
> So I can see why my Calgary Colleagues might prefer Shade Tree. But I've never heard that before.
> 
> My learning for the day!


Well being from Saskatchewan, I can imagine that "shade tree" could be a foreign concept to you.  Hee hee.  (and being from southern alberta desert myself I think that's okay for me to say).


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## Mcgyver (Jul 17, 2022)

Pretty much done, phew!  The idea was spare no effort in an attempt to achieve factory new accuracy and performance.  Its a no small challenge given it was a wreck and Schaublin was arguably the finest maker of lathes. (There may be equals, but I can't think of a maker that surpasses them).   It took over a year and many times I had to hold my tongue just so!   I did everything on the this lathe, spindle regrind and made a new double taper bearing as per above (about 3/4 of a tenth TIR), lapped the tailstock, hard chromed and ground the quill, (2 tenths clearance, you can hold the TS vertically and the quill doesn't fall out), scraped and ground the slide rest, scrape the bed, scraped the headstock and tailstock into alignment to a tenth....every surface that touches another got worked on.   Had to make many missing parts as well.  Really of sick of reconditioning at the moment....but nah, the biax isn't for sale...yet .  I even painted it which I usually don't do...but its a Schaublin so deserved it.


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## thestelster (Jul 17, 2022)

Absolutely stunning!  It's more art than machine.


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## PeterT (Jul 17, 2022)

Now that's a restorative work of art. Way to go.


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## phaxtris (Jul 17, 2022)

wow, excellent work!


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## whydontu (Jul 17, 2022)

beautiful work!


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Pretty much done, phew!  The idea was spare no effort in an attempt to achieve factory new accuracy and performance.  Its a no small challenge given it was a wreck and Schaublin was arguably the finest maker of lathes. (There may be equals, but I can't think of a maker that surpasses them).   It took over a year and many times I had to hold my tongue just so!   I did everything on the this lathe, spindle regrind and made a new double taper bearing as per above (about 3/4 of a tenth TIR), lapped the tailstock, hard chromed and ground the quill, (2 tenths clearance, you can hold the TS vertically and the quill doesn't fall out), scraped and ground the slide rest, scrape the bed, scraped the headstock and tailstock into alignment to a tenth....every surface that touches another got worked on.   Had to make many missing parts as well.  Really of sick of reconditioning at the moment....but nah, the biax isn't for sale...yet .  I even painted it which I usually don't do...but its a Schaublin so deserved it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 25012
> ...



It's beautiful Mcgyver. It almost looks surreal. Clearly very old but yet new looking. Do you know when it was made?

I assume it uses an overhead belt system of some kind. It doesn't appear have any threading capability.

Even the oil tray is beautiful.....

Very impressive work and pretty darn good photography too!

Well done!


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## PeterT (Jul 17, 2022)

@Mcgyver looking back at your older pictures, you definitely made what I consider a good decision on paint. It deserves it LOL. Can you summarize your prep & what kind of top coat system you ended up using?


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## Degen (Jul 18, 2022)

Time to learn something again from someone (you), nice work!


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## 6.5 Fan (Jul 18, 2022)

Excellent restoration.


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## trlvn (Jul 18, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> The idea was spare no effort in an attempt to achieve factory new accuracy and performance. Its a no small challenge given it was a wreck and Schaublin was arguably the finest maker of lathes.


Your work is fantastic, yet again.  And the photography is not too shabby either!

It struck me though, that at one point this was just another day at work for someone.  Amazing the skill level those guys must have had.  

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but my impression is that, back in the day, a lot of the Swiss watch-making industry was 'cottage' work.  Basically farmers making some extra income over the winter.  But I have no idea how that worked.  A cottage worker could not have afforded to invest in a Schaublin to only use in the winter months.  

Craig


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## Susquatch (Jul 18, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Your work is fantastic, yet again.  And the photography is not too shabby either!
> 
> It struck me though, that at one point this was just another day at work for someone.  Amazing the skill level those guys must have had.
> 
> ...



I'm just speculating here Craig... I really don't know the answer to your question. Like you though, I like to ponder questions like that.

My ancestors were mountain farmers like those swiss watchmakers. What I have been told is that those mountain farmers all lived in central family (or clan) villages and travelled out to each individual farm from the central village. Sometimes they would have tiny "cottages" that were used for longer stays afield. In the village, the animals were on the ground floor and people lived above that. Often times, each clan would have specialty skills that they were known for that could be traded between clans. Quite often, that skill even became the basis of the family name.

Could it be that the clan would acquire equipment like that for everyone to use?

Mind you, watch making and even lathe work of any kind is not really that old. I would also guess they didn't use anything nearly as gorgeous as @Mcgyver 's schaublin. Perhaps even as simple as a spinning shaft in packed bearings. Perhaps using a machine like that to produce precision time pieces was how they came to be known as craftsmen.

Just speculating.


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## Mcgyver (Jul 18, 2022)

thanks for all the kind works gents, much appreciated!

Peter, each casting was sanded, filled, spot puttied, sanded, primed with filler primer etc, over and over.  Then I start painting.  for about 5 coats I ended up sanding away the paint as the flaws we're really only noticeable once painted.  There are still are some, but I had to stop and get on with others things.

Paint is PPG line 7 enamel spayed with a two stage airbrush.  The paint is hard for an airbrush, but my new two stage brush is about 50x better than the only single stage (both Paasche).  The paint is fairly glossy which I don't particularly like so talc was added to get the more matt finish (just looks glossy below because its wet)


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## Mcgyver (Jul 18, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Maybe I'm completely wrong, but my impression is that, back in the day, a lot of the Swiss watch-making industry was 'cottage' work.  Basically farmers making some extra income over the winter.  But I have no idea how that worked.  A cottage worker could not have afforded to invest in a Schaublin to only use in the winter months.
> 
> Craig



I don't know all the intricacies either, however I recall reading that were something like 28 different trades or specialist jobs that that went into the different parts of a watch.  For example, the guy the made hair spring wasn't the one who guilloched the bridges who wasn't the one who enamelled the dials who wasn't the one who made the hands and so on  I suspect those farmers were either fulfilling one specialty and supply a certain part, or were assemblers.   I also suspect that "back in the day" was quite a long time ago.

This little factoid is what makes someone like a George Daniels so revered, he mastered every one of the 28 and did each supremely well.  Almost none can do that.

Speaking of horology.....I had a nice long case clock follow me home the other day.  The seller thought it was made in 1712, I think more like 1730.  I get a kick out working on stuff that old....before Dickens was born, Newton was still around (if 1712) and the US wasn't a country yet


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## Susquatch (Jul 18, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> I don't know all the intricacies either, however I recall reading that were something like 28 different trades or specialist jobs that that went into the different parts of a watch.  For example, the guy the made hair spring wasn't the one who guilloched the bridges who wasn't the one who enamelled the dials who wasn't the one who made the hands and so on  I suspect those farmers were either fulfilling one specialty and supply a certain part, or were assemblers.
> 
> This little factoid is what makes someone like a George Daniels so revered, he mastered every one of the 28 and did each supremely well.  Almost none can do that.



This fits with my family village theory too.


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## PeterT (Jul 18, 2022)

Thanks for paint info. Yes I can see where paint viscosity in that range might be a bit of push for an airbrush. One of the HVLP mini guns I have is the prior version of this Lemmer #601 (mine is 600 but looks the same). Made in Taiwan, at least was the vase 10-15 years ago. It was pretty reasonably priced, I recall about $125 with a few Teflon cups. I run mine off of a very humble mini compressor. Anyways the big plus is you can get  4 different needle/nozzle sizes from 0.5-1.2mm & its quite amazing what that range will deliver. I was spraying auto type paint from 0.5" to 2.5" with pretty decent control. Next step up is maybe a Iwata but 2-3X the price. Anyways I'm an advocate of mini HVLPs.








						A-601 HVLP Mini Gravity Gun
					

LEMMER is a manufacturer and distributor of paint spray equipment and rust proofing spray equipment. Products include air & airless paint sprayer, HVLP, pressure pot, rustproofing, air assist airless, pneumatic pump, electrostatic and pipe coating.



					www.lemmer.com
				




I'm a bit weird. I would actually enjoy the finishing aspect of a machine. I'm sure its not without its challenges, especially cleaning & prep work & where to draw the effort line castings. But they sure look purdy when done. There is a nice range of satin clears out there which really is a cool look & every bit as resilient. But they are the typically 2K intended for base/clear systems. It would certainly work on a machine but more work & the fumes are more dangerous.


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## buckbrush (Jul 22, 2022)

Model 70 Schaublin lathes are rare around Calgary. The two that I have seen are the “hand screw machine” model, like a turret lathe.


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## Canadium (Jul 22, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> ...
> Peter, each casting was sanded, filled, spot puttied, sanded, primed with filler primer etc, over and over.  Then I start painting.  for about 5 coats I ended up sanding away the paint as the flaws we're really only noticeable once painted.



Which products did you use to fill and spot putty?


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## Mcgyver (Jul 22, 2022)

Ian, I used Bondo autobody filler for the first pass and anything rough then Bondo Glazinng and spot putty, mostly because it was on Amazon.



> Model 70 Schaublin lathes are rare around Calgary



I think they are rare everywhere.  They sell at a real premium to the larger 102's because of rarity and they are highly prized by watch and clock guys.  I've bought 4 1/2 of them over the last 15 years and all were through networking, the never seem to come up.  A friend of mine (where this one is going, a trade) has bought a similar number of them, each (afaik) a friend of a friend.  For a couple of them he went to the States.   Actually I fib....last week where was a beautiful one on facebook, he wanted 7800 and I think it was up a day then SOLD!  Moderate amount of collets but lots accessories and tooling and it was a late model.   I semi toyed with grabbing it, adding some accessories to my collection and reselling at a profit, but it would be a lot of effort for not much upside.   He had a Schaublin 150 for 18k and a Schaublin 13 mill for 10k that went just as quickly.  Big dollars, but that's what they go for and still, you have to ready to pounce right away.


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## David_R8 (Jul 22, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Thanks for paint info. Yes I can see where paint viscosity in that range might be a bit of push for an airbrush. One of the HVLP mini guns I have is the prior version of this Lemmer #601 (mine is 600 but looks the same). Made in Taiwan, at least was the vase 10-15 years ago. It was pretty reasonably priced, I recall about $125 with a few Teflon cups. I run mine off of a very humble mini compressor. Anyways the big plus is you can get  4 different needle/nozzle sizes from 0.5-1.2mm & its quite amazing what that range will deliver. I was spraying auto type paint from 0.5" to 2.5" with pretty decent control. Next step up is maybe a Iwata but 2-3X the price. Anyways I'm an advocate of mini HVLPs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a nice size gun. Spendy though I bet...


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## gerritv (Jul 22, 2022)

More likely to find Schaublins in EU: https://www.machinio.com/schaublin/70/centre-lathes or https://www.werktuigen.com/schaublin-70/wt-701-1024


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## Mcgyver (Jul 22, 2022)

gerritv said:


> More likely to find Schaublins in EU: https://www.machinio.com/schaublin/70/centre-lathes or https://www.werktuigen.com/schaublin-70/wt-701-1024



but they sure aren't any cheaper!  $6000 cdn for for that.....wow.  Minimal tooling and its a TR, turret configuration which means no tailstock and most importantly no slide rest.  About useless for general lathe work.  Its also F collets (vs W12) which are less desirable (takes longer to change a collet, which isn't the end of the world, but generally the market doesn't like them as much.)


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## gerritv (Jul 22, 2022)

The first link had more generic ones, but yes, that is the price from dealers. Private sales are less costly but if you are not 'over there' they are difficult to spot. 102's are a lot more plentiful. Had I been wiser years ago I would have picked one up on one of my visits home to Holland.

OTOH you spent a lot of time rebuilding that one, and worth the effort.


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## PeterT (Jul 22, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> That's a nice size gun. Spendy though I bet...


I just called Lemmer in Calgary. The #601 now goes for $185 (I forgot to ask if the kit includes Teflon cup & mini air reg like mine did). The needle/seat/cap assembly for a different orifice size is $65,
So assuming they maintained the quality its actually a decently versatile mid road gun. My buddy was doing guitars & small woodworking projects with his. But paint systems vary a lot depending on the nature of the hobby or business.








						Air Spray Gun
					

LEMMER is a manufacturer and distributor of paint spray equipment and rust proofing spray equipment. Products include air & airless paint sprayer, HVLP, pressure pot, rustproofing, air assist airless, pneumatic pump, electrostatic and pipe coating.



					www.lemmer.com
				




There are Chinese versions of these mini HVLPs for much lower cost. Its similar to machine tools, they vary from perfectly fine to junk & really hard to judge what you may get. But I'm dating myself to 10-15 years ago - my knockoff I think was a Princess Auto door prize win. It has ill fitting O-rings to seal (compensate for ill fitting) air cap assembly, the needle is very rough & not ground properly. The threads all seem to leak. So back in the day I reserved it for primer just to save wear on my good gun. Really for spraying a machine you could probably easily get away with a cheapo & it will do a better job vs a brush or spray bomb.


			https://www.amazon.ca/Canadian-Tool-Supply-Spray-SG-HVLP-E1/dp/B07PRGFVMP
		


IMO avoid these older gen (non-HVLP) style of touch up guns. They work, but they are operated at higher pressure so tend to gobble paint, have less control, less tolerant of viscosity etc.


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