# Which small production grade mill?



## GummyMonster (Aug 17, 2022)

I'm sitting around waiting for this stupid coronavirus to pass through the house. I'm starting to mend, so now it's the boring time.
 Just for discussions sake, if you were able to buy the machine you wanted, and had plenty of room to operate it, what CNC mill would you have?
Something with these travel parameters (roughly)
  -
TRAVELS
 X-Axis
 18 in. (457 mm)
 Y-Axis
  11 in. (279 mm)
 Z-Axis
 16.25 in. (413 mm)

And a budget around  $60k CAD.
Needs to use common tooling .
 This is just a discussion starter about what YOU'D want. So there's no right or wrong answers.
Interested to see your choices.
Ken


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## Susquatch (Aug 17, 2022)

60k eh....  I'd buy another tractor.

Just having fun. Can't wait to see what you come up with for that!


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> 60k eh....  I'd buy another tractor.
> 
> Just having fun. Can't wait to see what you come up with for that!


I'm still working on the old tractor...


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 17, 2022)

On the subject of CNC mills the Z axis travel appears to be fairly long for most of the smaller ones I've seen. Likely a HAAS or some German/Japanese machine might have that. 

If the question is metric or imperial the first thing to decide is whether you want BT or CAT tool holders or is this more hobby oriented and therefore R8 with Tormach Tool Holders are good enough.   

Is a tool changer and carousel of tools mandatory?

And are you willing to spend the money to turn a manual mill into a CNC mill.  That's a big question.

Would you like Horizontal milling features?  If so this one is a good starting point but will require a lot of work to make into CNC and is still only R8.








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HAAS isn't that expensive if you have $60K








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## Tom Kitta (Aug 17, 2022)

I would go with HASS mini mill. It is a good hobby sized mill that can do limited production runs. I am sure there are many other similar choices. You can go bigger then mini mill - it is just that I do not trust "space is not a limit" thing


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## Tom O (Aug 17, 2022)

It depends a lot on what features you want loaded on it that’s what drives up the price.
There is a Haas Mini Mill group on Facebook


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 17, 2022)

Tom O said:


> It depends a lot on what features you want loaded on it that’s what drives up the price.
> There is a Haas Mini Mill group on Facebook



Yes, you can have bare bones or "deluxe" I think price difference is like double.


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## GummyMonster (Aug 18, 2022)

I like the Tormach 1100 mx. I keep going back to it when I'm window shopping.
 Neat, compact enough, and the work it turns out seems very good quality.
 I think I'd try to pimp one of these right up.
Ken


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## GummyMonster (Aug 18, 2022)

Haas's mini mill lineup has a lot to off for sure. I was under the misconception that they had only larger machines. Size, wise they compare to the Tormach, but prices are where the big differences show. The additional cost is probably justified, but it's something to consider.
Ken


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 18, 2022)

GummyMonster said:


> Haas's mini mill lineup has a lot to off for sure. I was under the misconception that they had only larger machines. Size, wise they compare to the Tormach, but prices are where the big differences show. The additional cost is probably justified, but it's something to consider.
> Ken



Tormach is a "home made" made CNC - i.e. its totally hobby grade you can make at home, roughly. Haas is a real CNC machine industry grade. Thus the price difference. I would not mind a Tormach but many times it is way over priced --- its value is roughly $$ needed to CNC a manual machine. 

This does not mean home grade machines cannot make good parts - they can. 

There are a lot of other Tormach style machines out there - however, if I want a dream machine I do not dream in Fiat - I prefer Ferrari or similar.


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## Perry (Aug 18, 2022)

Sadly. I'm stuck in the FIAT class.    but.....it feels like a Ferrari


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 18, 2022)

Perry said:


> View attachment 25594
> 
> Sadly. I'm stuck in the FIAT class.    but.....it feels like a Ferrari


Me too. But one can dream for free.


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## JReimer (Aug 18, 2022)

For me I agree with the Tormach 1100 mx option. Partially because I wouldn't be doing fast speed production where I need the power of the Haas but more so because with a 60K dream budget after I pimped out the Tormach I have room in the budget for all the tooling and extra toys to go with the machine. Lets face it the cost of the machine in only a small part.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 18, 2022)

JReimer said:


> For me I agree with the Tormach 1100 mx option. Partially because I wouldn't be doing fast speed production where I need the power of the Haas but more so because with a 60K dream budget after I pimped out the Tormach I have room in the budget for all the tooling and extra toys to go with the machine. Lets face it the cost of the machine in only a small part.



Tooling for CNC is not even close to the price of a machine. Usually small fraction of the price. Its a big deal only for manual machines where tooling frequently is more then the machine. Fully loaded Haas would come with stuff from the factory such as a probe, ATC, 4th axis etc. All one needs to add is a nice vise and a set of nice tool holders. Heck I would not be shocked if they also were selling the machine with that tooling included as an option. 

You can clearly see that on auctions where tooling sells for much less then the machine. For CNC you need a lot less fancy tooling then for a manual machine as well.


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## GummyMonster (Aug 18, 2022)

Thanks Tom,
You're a library of information on your own.
 I'm too new to all this yet to even know what questions I need to be asking.
  And ever brand/model has devout followers and haters, so weeding through the preferences for actual advice like you've given is tough for me.
Thanks,
Ken


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## David_R8 (Aug 18, 2022)

Check out BladesIIB on YT. He has a Tormach1100.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 18, 2022)

GummyMonster said:


> Thanks Tom,
> You're a library of information on your own.
> I'm too new to all this yet to even know what questions I need to be asking.
> And ever brand/model has devout followers and haters, so weeding through the preferences for actual advice like you've given is tough for me.
> ...



Remember its has to do a lot about price to what you get - I would say a Tormach 1100 in decent condition for say $5000 would be excellent deal. But a new Tormach 1100 for price approaching Haas is not longer a good deal - its a bad deal. 

I.e. new Fiat for $500 is a great deal, especially if it comes with a Tony to fix it


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 18, 2022)

Tormach to HAAS is an apples and oranges comparison unless you can upgrade the spindle in the Tormach to take BT holders and turn 10,000 RPM.  

A Volkswagen Beetle with flat air cooled horizontally opposed engine isn't the same as the liquid cooled horizontally opposed twin overhead cam Subaru engines.  They are different even if they both have pistons.

And HAAS is overpriced but then they have to pay for their F1 racing team even if it is a loser.


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## Tom O (Aug 18, 2022)

Another thing that gets sprung on you is the Haas will need a air dryer for the spindle or it could void Your warranty and they don’t recommend the pellet type, I toyed one for a while then I got one from KMS for $1500 a few years ago they’ve gone up since then.


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## Degen (Aug 18, 2022)

Tooling for a CNC usually ends up costing as much as the machine.  If you are loading an auto tool changer you will have a tool holder and tool for each slot along with spares as jobs change.  You want the CNC to run not wait while you change tools in a tool holder and re-zero between tool changes.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 18, 2022)

Degen said:


> Tooling for a CNC usually ends up costing as much as the machine.  If you are loading an auto tool changer you will have a tool holder and tool for each slot along with spares as jobs change.  You want the CNC to run not wait while you change tools in a tool holder and re-zero between tool changes.



This does not even come close to tax bill for the mill in some provinces - I mean each tool holder is like 150 or so, maybe touch more on eBay for say Techniks (brand name). 
Haas has 10 ATC so even with double # of tools (20) you are talking around just 3000 CAD (!). Few sets of ER25, ER32 / ER40 collets - say 1500 (brand name). Kurt or similar vice is under 1000. 

For a manual machine spending 5500+ on tooling without cutting equipment is a LOT of $$$. But for a CNC its ... nothing.


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## PaulL (Aug 18, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> For a manual machine spending 5500+ on tooling without cutting equipment is a LOT of $$$. But for a CNC its ... nothing.


I'd add the proviso "for production CNC".  For the smaller one-off scale machines, that's a lot of coin.


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