# Dividing head restoration



## Canadium (Apr 30, 2022)

Does any one else here have a Walter dividing head similar to mine? Got this Walter HU125N that I would like to restore. Apart from a cleanup and lube it is missing some dividing plates and a tailstock. Maybe more problems here than I will be able to manage. I see Stefan Gotteswinter has a video on his restoration of a similar but smaller one.





Stephan however is far more capable in these things than I! Is it possible to make you own dividing plates? Or for that matter to substitute another tailstock?


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## Rauce (Apr 30, 2022)

I think making your own plates would be difficult... I would guess you could find plates that fit meant for an import dividing head or could be adapted. 

You could probably substitute another tailstock, it's just the centre height that matters and some are adjustable.


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## Brent H (Apr 30, 2022)

You can make your own.  You can use a rotating table as he is doing or some guys have had great success printing off to scale and punching the drawing to locate the holes.  It is a long process. You could also CNC one if you have that operation accessible.


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## trlvn (Apr 30, 2022)

No hands-on experience here...but if you have a DRO with the bolt-hole-circle function, wouldn't such plates just be a really thorough exercise of the function?

The plates wouldn't even have to start as circles, no?

Craig


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## Susquatch (May 6, 2022)

trlvn said:


> No hands-on experience here...but if you have a DRO with the bolt-hole-circle function, wouldn't such plates just be a really thorough exercise of the function?
> 
> The plates wouldn't even have to start as circles, no?
> 
> Craig



I gotta try that someday soon.... I'm missing one plate for my universal dividing head. It hasn't ever been an issue but it's a really nice exercise for my new DRO. 

If not, a rotary table is a slam dunk. 

@Canadium - as @Rauce says, I think it's a bit of a challenge for someone new to such things, but on the other hand, if all you ever make is easy stuff you never get to really practice that puffed out chest posture when you show the CFO what you can do. I say go for it! It's only a few pieces of 1/4 plate (or whatever you need). If you fail, just start over and don't show anybody...... Except us! We all enjoy other members screw-ups. It's a requisite part of membership. A sort of brotherhood if you will. I'll show you mine if you show me yours! 

One other tip - use a low res setting on the camera you use to take photos. Some of the members use 80" computer screens with a zoom mouse.....


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## Canadium (May 7, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> One other tip - use a low res setting on the camera you use to take photos. Some of the members use 80" computer screens with a zoom mouse.....



Is this image better?


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## 6.5 Fan (May 7, 2022)

That looks heavy.


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## Canadium (May 7, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> That looks heavy.


About 115 pounds.


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## Dabbler (May 7, 2022)

@Canadium that loos like a nice, wellmade unit.  Impressed.


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## Canadium (May 8, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @Canadium that loos like a nice, wellmade unit.  Impressed.



I'm getting a lot of serious reservations about this piece right now. I'm finding too many things seized up. There is no rotational motion. I see no locking mechanism still engaged. When I tried taking it apart I found too many seized up screws and bolts. Its not rusty but everything seems to be super tight.


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## Chicken lights (May 8, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I'm getting a lot of serious reservations about this piece right now. I'm finding too many things seized up. There is no rotational motion. I see no locking mechanism still engaged. When I tried taking it apart I found too many seized up screws and bolts. Its not rusty but everything seems to be super tight.


Handheld impact driver + heat?


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## Susquatch (May 8, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Is this image better?
> 
> View attachment 23730



My comment was a rotten attempt at humour not meant to be serious. 

I was referring to posting your work not the fixture. And my comment was really about avoiding criticism by making the photo too grainy to see anything. The humour is prolly lost by now. 

On a serious note, I'd start by giving it a real good soaking in a good penetrant for several days. Then try to figure out where you have the most mechanical advantage and start trying to move it there. I doubt that is at the chuck.


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## Susquatch (May 8, 2022)

Just zoomed in.... LOL......

Looks like there is at least one ball oiler on it - prolly a few more. Good place to get penetrating oil into it.

Seems to me the best place to try to turn it is where the divider plates are. If it will not turn after soaking and you have exhaustively looked for locks, I'd prolly do what @Chicken lights suggests but I would make a very tight fitting adapter to attach the impact gun to in order to minimize any damage to the input shaft and key way. My universal dividing head is very delicate in that area so I'd be really really careful.

I'd also avoid the temptation to bake it. It's probable that it's gummed up and baking it will only make it worse.

Some of those heads had a cam to lock the chuck and many of them also had a sliding pin to lock the chuck. Yours appears to have the sliding pin at the top but it also "looks like" it is disengaged. 

Another totally different idea is to soak it till the end of May and then bring it to the meet N greet at Brent's...... You will get a hands on evaluation and lots of advice there!  Just stand back and let the ideas fly! I'd wager a good bet it will follow you home in pieces......... One way or the other....... LOL!


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## Canadium (May 8, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Handheld impact driver + heat?



I have resorted to my handheld impact driver and it has worked wonders but I don't have a bit with a large size  allen wrench head.


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## Canadium (May 8, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Just zoomed in.... LOL......
> 
> Looks like there is at least one ball oiler on it - prolly a few more. Good place to get penetrating oil into it.
> 
> ...



Yes several ball oilers. Do you have a favourite penetrating oil?

Yes there is a sliding pin, one of the few things on it that still seems to work, and yes it is disengaged.

The problem with bringing it to the meet and greet is that its so dam heavy! I was contemplating soaking it but have to find a suitable container, figure out what to soak it with, and eat a lot of wheaties so that I can lift it and put it into its bath!


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## Susquatch (May 8, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Yes several ball oilers. Do you have a favourite penetrating oil?
> 
> Yes there is a sliding pin, one of the few things on it that still seems to work, and yes it is disengaged.
> 
> The problem with bringing it to the meet and greet is that its so dam heavy! I was contemplating soaking it but have to find a suitable container, figure out what to soak it with, and eat a lot of wheaties so that I can lift it and put it into its bath!



You only have to put it into the car alone. Lots of hands there to help you get it out. Maybe @Brent H 's wench will be there too. 

I have lots of favorite penetrating oils..... LOL. 

For that job I'd prolly use good old diesel oil (or kerosene) because you can get enough of it to soak the whole assembly in a big Tupperware tub.


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## Brent H (May 8, 2022)

@Canadium, if you plan a complete overhaul, you can soak it first in rust remover - like a bucket of Evap-O-Rust and then a good soak in the WD40 penetrating oil.  Usually I will take a wire brush to everything, do the soak, rinse and wire brush again.

If you bring it up we can always let it run in the parts washer for a few hours - and we have a few strong lads hanging around that can help with anything seized up. 

At least send you back with the project apart and good for a scrub/reassembly


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## Chicken lights (May 8, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I have resorted to my handheld impact driver and it has worked wonders but I don't have a bit with a large size  allen wrench head.


Any idea on the size? I’ve got from 1/8” up to 7/8” , plus metric. Although with gas prices it’s probably cheaper to buy what you need locally


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## Canadium (May 8, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Any idea on the size? I’ve got from 1/8” up to 7/8” , plus metric. Although with gas prices it’s probably cheaper to buy what you need locally




The socket in my hand held is 5/16 and the bolt I'm trying to loosen is 3/8. Not sure that the hand held will do any better than hammering on the allen wrench because the bolt is fairly long and probably just twisting without coming loose. In fact I was worried that the bolt would just break off.

I did a cursory search around to see if anyone locally had any such bit but couldn't find exactly what I needed.


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## RobinHood (May 8, 2022)

I would keep impact tools away from precision instruments; you’ll never know what damage you do with them until it is too late.

A lot of worm drives have a bronze gear and a steel (CI) one meshing. Or there are bronze plain bearings. The impact could forever destroy either of them.

100% agree with advise of soaking the whole unit. You can go the rust removal/degrease route first or (what I like to do) soak in your favourite penetrating fluid - I use kerosene (only because the old manuals make reference to it). More “modern” fluids will work (maybe even better?).

Then you need a lot of TIME! Like weeks/months for stubborn items. Every day give it a little tap with a soft blow hammer (as you are walking by for example). It will eventually break loose.

The surface contact areas on the rotating members on a DH are very large (for strength and rigidity purposes). Also tolerances are extremely tight. Even the slightest corrosion (or dried up lubricant) will render the surface immobile.

So a thin, non corrosive penetrating liquid becomes your friend. The light tapping with a hammer produces just enough of a shockwave in the material that each time the liquid finds its way a little deeper in between the surfaces and eventually they separate.

As soon as you have movement, try to separate the parts. It is preferred not to slide potentially corroded surfaces across each other as the oxide (being harder than the native material in most cases) will score the precision surfaces.

Once apart, clean everything and reassemble. Test functionality and repair any problems.

Enjoy your new tool…


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## John Conroy (May 8, 2022)

That indexing plate looks pretty similar to the ones for my Vertex super spacer. Since the import tools are almost always direct copies of older North American or European stuff they may fit. I have  2 plates each with 2 sides. The center hole is 1.130" diameter and the OD is 7.085" the 3 screw holes are on a 41mm (1.616") bolt circle . They are .475" thick.


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## Canadium (May 8, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> That indexing plate looks pretty similar to the ones for my Vertex super spacer. Since the import tools are almost always direct copies of older North American or European stuff they may fit. I have  2 plates each with 2 sides. The center hole is 1.130" diameter and the OD is 7.085" the 3 screw holes are on a 41mm (1.616") bolt circle . They are .475" thick.



Mine has significant differences. Mine is one sided, center hole is1.175", the OD is 6.8125", screw holes are 0.25" and plate is 0.325" thick.


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## Canadium (May 10, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> That indexing plate looks pretty similar to the ones for my Vertex super spacer. Since the import tools are almost always direct copies of older North American or European stuff they may fit. I have  2 plates each with 2 sides. The center hole is 1.130" diameter and the OD is 7.085" the 3 screw holes are on a 41mm (1.616") bolt circle . They are .475" thick.



So after thinking about it a little I started to wonder if my response should have been is it easier to adapt plates even if dimensions are not exactly the same or easier to make my own? Also what number of holes or divisions would be needed to cut spur gears assuming the 40:1 standard ratio?


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## Canadium (May 10, 2022)

So I have the whole thing soaking in a kerosene bath including a few parts I managed to remove. After 24 hours I removed some of the loose parts. The oily dirty coating had been removed but the parts still had a lot of rust on them. More than initially I thought was there in fact.






So what next? How do you get filthy old machine parts shiny and clean? My choice for treating the loose parts was either Evapo=Rust or oven cleaner. I tried both one each on the two index rings for comparison. The larger ring about 10 min with oven cleaner followed by brush scrub, water rinse, shake off excess water, spray with brake cleaner to knock off remaining water and prevent flash rust. The smaller ring one hour in Evapo-Rust followed by same treatment with water rinse and brake cleaner.






In my opinion the oven cleaner is the winner. It left slightly less rust, was quicker, and would have worked just as well without the kerosene bath first.


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## historicalarms (May 10, 2022)

I'm impressed with the look of that machine ...can bet it has a much more complicated inner working mechanism than a simple worm gear angle drive like the import Vertecs a lot of us have.


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## Dabbler (May 10, 2022)

My way is to Evaporust 24 hours, then take Scotchbright brown with low odour varsol (sometimes with WD40 added) to remove the remainder.  It leaves things very shiny, and the Varsol leaves a film.  I immediately spray with SAE10 oil (3-in 1 type) on it for immediate rust protection and assembly lube.  [I despise flash rust, it makes things seem pointless]

During assembly is when I use grease or way oil or appropriate lube products.


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## RobinHood (May 10, 2022)

I think the reason the oven cleaner worked better / faster is because it has built-in degreasers. EvapoRust does not. Kerosene is not really the best degreaser - it leaves a thin protective “oily” film. That is why it‘s so good to loosen things up without them subsequently flash rusting.

Some people use a heavy duty degreaser before they immediately soak parts in EvapoRust. It then does a better/faster job. If time is not a criterion, just let them soak longer as @Dabbler is suggesting. It does work in the long run. Having an agitator in the bath also helps; a little aquarium pump works well for that. (I have used my coolant pump from the Carolina bandsaw in the past). Make sure to have the parts fully covered by the ER. You’ll get a nice “witness line” where the ER ends and the air begins if you don’t.


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## Rauce (May 10, 2022)

Whenever I use evaporust it’s for at least 24hrs. 

I often do scotchbrite and Wd-40 before going in the evaporust if it’s really crusty. I feel like that helps reduce the amount of work it has to do.


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## Degen (May 18, 2022)

Simple suggestion. Bucket of kerosene, couple of bottles hobbs number 9, let it soak couple of weeks.  Let it work and soak.

After that high frequency vibration to allow further seepage.  You should have some success at this this point.


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## Canadium (May 19, 2022)

Degen said:


> Simple suggestion. Bucket of kerosene, couple of bottles hobbs number 9, let it soak couple of weeks.  Let it work and soak.
> 
> After that high frequency vibration to allow further seepage.  You should have some success at this this point.



Unfortunately don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaner. (assume thats what you mean by high frequency vibration?) Would have to be a big one because this thing is a big heavy beast! So far after about 10 days of kerosene soak no joy. No apparent difference whatsoever. It has an oil level glass so should have some oil in it. My impression is that there is none. Whatever oil used to be there appears to have turned into a light brown jello crap!


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## Degen (May 19, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Unfortunately don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaner. (assume thats what you mean by high frequency vibration?) Would have to be a big one because this thing is a big heavy beast! So far after about 10 days of kerosene soak no joy. No apparent difference whatsoever. It has an oil level glass so should have some oil in it. My impression is that there is none. Whatever oil used to be there appears to have turned into a light brown jello crap!


Unfortunately, to get it to loosen the solvent is going to be needed.

Air hammer, with a flat head and a light touch can help with provided there are no hidden cracks, otherwise it will come apart in but not as desired.


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## Mcgyver (May 20, 2022)

To your earlier question of making plates, its not hard, just tedious.   Do it on a mill, dial or DRO, its just a bolt hole circle.  You can make up an excel sheet or here's hand dandy calculator  https://littlemachineshop.com/mobile/bolt_circle.php

The accuracy is more than good enough given any error is going be attenuated 40:1


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Unfortunately don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaner. (assume thats what you mean by high frequency vibration?) Would have to be a big one because this thing is a big heavy beast! So far after about 10 days of kerosene soak no joy. No apparent difference whatsoever. It has an oil level glass so should have some oil in it. My impression is that there is none. Whatever oil used to be there appears to have turned into a light brown jello crap!



Just checking back in. 

Ultrasonic is always great but as you say not really feasible for a big rotary table. 

A few bumps from different directions every so often with a deadblow hammer will accomplish similar results. Just give it a whack every so often - say every time you walk by. Bumps in the right places will send a vibration through the castings which will allow the penetrant to creep its way in along the part boundaries. Hit it hard enough to send a shock wave but not hard enough to dent or damage it. If you are worried about damaging it, add a flat plate between the hammer and the rotary table.


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## Frcsc6el8 (May 20, 2022)

If the chuck isn’t salvageable I have face mount chuck in excellent condition. USA made. Please let me know. John


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## Canadium (May 20, 2022)

Frcsc6el8 said:


> If the chuck isn’t salvageable I have face mount chuck in excellent condition. USA made. Please let me know. John



I think actually the chuck works fine. Its the rest of the dividing head that is in question. Thanks for the consideration though.


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## Canadium (May 22, 2022)

So the sticking point I had run into was 4 bolts that hold the outer clamping straps. Although I now suspect most parts on this machine are going to be difficult if not impossible. I've attached a general dividing head diagram below to hopefully help illustrate.






After about 10 days of soaking in kerosene without any apparent improvement I got frustrated and impatient. I lifted it from the kerosene dried it out and started drenching it with penetrating oil. after about 4 days of that today I finally managed to remove the bolts and clamps. The pair of clamping bolts on the bottom were quite rusty but relatively easy to remove. The upper clamping bolts turned out to be free of rust but obviously overtightened and the most difficult to remove.  Now the nose that holds the dividing plate should slide off. Off course it doesn't want to come either. Gonna let that penetrating oil soak in some more and try again later!

Below is a pic of where its at now.


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## Susquatch (May 22, 2022)

Canadium said:


> So the sticking point I had run into was 4 bolts that hold the outer clamping straps. Although I now suspect most parts on this machine are going to be difficult if not impossible. I've attached a general dividing head diagram below to hopefully help illustrate.
> 
> View attachment 24040
> 
> ...



GREAT PROGRESS! WOOO HOOO! 

Slow and steady wins the day. I feel very confident that you will win in the end.


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## trlvn (May 22, 2022)

I was taught to use penetrating oil, heat and shock to loosen stuck parts.  In combination, if necessary.  The heat and shock aspects don't have to be all that big, either.  If you can heat the 'outer' part by say +100C, that creates a bit of differential expansion and helps to break the corrosion lock.  Same with shock.  If you can put some force on the fastener and then give the assembly a sharp rap anywhere near the stuck bit, the corrosion lock seems to shatter and away you go.

Of course, other times you just get that really long cheater bar and either break it or it comes off!



Craig
PS I don't have much experience with kerosene.  Maybe it isn't that good as a penetrating oil?


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## Canadium (May 23, 2022)

trlvn said:


> I was taught to use penetrating oil, heat and shock to loosen stuck parts.  In combination, if necessary.  The heat and shock aspects don't have to be all that big, either.  If you can heat the 'outer' part by say +100C, that creates a bit of differential expansion and helps to break the corrosion lock.



After sleeping on it over night I decided the nature of the stuck parts, in this case basically concentric circles, lent themselves perfectly to @trlvn 's idea of using heat. So I pulled out my MAPP gas torch, tapped the joints a bunch of times with a hammer all around and had at it with the torch. Used a piece of wood and a hammer to try knocking off the nose, and voila! Off it came!!! 

The inside though looks pretty horrid with tons of rust! There are some nuts and screws inside that will have to be undone and getting them off without further damaging the gears will be a trick!


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## trlvn (May 23, 2022)

Yahtzee!!  But, wow, was that thing recovered from a shipwreck?!?  If it were me, I'd put that in a garbage can covered with a rust removing solution.  (Almost certainly a multi-day soak!)  I like Rust911 as it works out to be a fraction of the cost of Evaporust or the others.  One gallon of Rust911 can be mixed with 15 gallons of water.  The only trouble is shipping.  I had a gallon shipped to a cross-border service in Lewistown a few years ago.  As I recall, the shipping was going to cost more than the product to have it delivered into Canada.






						Best rust remover review for best rust removal concentrate
					

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Craig


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## Susquatch (May 23, 2022)

Wooooo Hooooo! 

You win! 

The rest is easy. Anything else that resists can be overcome with a drill and a few custom parts!


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## RobinHood (May 23, 2022)

After clean-up, you should have a very nice DH you can use in the shop.


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## Canadium (May 23, 2022)

Thanks everyone for your encouragement! I washed out all the rusty goo with kerosene and an old toothbrush. Believe it or not the rust really isn't that deep. I managed to remove most if not all of the internal nuts and bolts. All rotational axis now turn freely! Not all parts are completely dissassembled but I'm wondering at this point if that will really be necessary. A lot more cleaning and lubrication will be next.


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Not all parts are completely dissassembled but I'm wondering at this point if that will really be necessary.



I'd do it all if I were you.


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## 6.5 Fan (May 24, 2022)

From the looks of your last pic i would agree with Susquatch and do a complete disassembly.


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## Dusty (May 24, 2022)

@Canadium  I totally agree with Susquatch and 6.5 Fan don't stop now tear it down now while you are so close to doing so, just saying!


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## historicalarms (May 25, 2022)

I'm kind'a with the "continue the tear down crowd"....man...your gonna have a rotary table that is the envy of every person in that crowd when your done.


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

historicalarms said:


> I'm kind'a with the "continue the tear down crowd"....man...your gonna have a rotary table that is the envy of every person in that crowd when your done.



Well, maybe not quite a rotary table, but every bit as useful and every bit as envied!

I still think that he should scrap it at SSSS (Susquatch Scrap Sales Solutions) . Especially now that all the dissimilar metals have been separated out...... (Insert evil grin here.......)


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## Canadium (May 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Well, maybe not quite a rotary table, but every bit as useful and every bit as envied!
> 
> I still think that he should scrap it at SSSS (Susquatch Scrap Sales Solutions) . Especially now that all the dissimilar metals have been separated out...... (Insert evil grin here.......)



Right now it very much looks like a pile of scrap parts! I've just spent the better part of my day trying to get every last piece apart. I've made a lot of progress but their are still a couple of key pieces that are eluding my efforts. I think its going to be a long time before it's "the envy of every person in the crowd". Buying it at the auction was a big gamble and a leap of faith. If I'd known then what I know now I may not have taken the gamble!


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## Dabbler (May 25, 2022)

@Canadium Every time you use it you will remember what a bargain it was, and the investment you put into it.  It is part of your shop's story now!


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## Susquatch (May 25, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I think its going to be a long time before it's "the envy of every person in the crowd".




It's not even back together yet and it's already the envy of at least one person in the crowd! And I'd bet quite a few others feel the same way I do......

I like @Dabbler 's sentiments. That universal dividing head of yours will be the subject of many fine stories to come! 

Well scored and well done!


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## Degen (May 26, 2022)

For those interested I have a son with learning difficulties that can remove any bolt.  Just to be clear I said remove....one way or another......as his shop teach found out on a brand new engine he was building.......

BTW righty tighty and left loosy has no mean he keeps turning till it comes off.


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## combustable herbage (May 26, 2022)

Degen said:


> For those interested I have a son with learning difficulties that can remove any bolt.  Just to be clear I said remove....one way or another......as his shop teach found out on a brand new engine he was building.......
> 
> BTW righty tighty and left loosy has no mean he keeps turning till it comes off.


I like his determination


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## Susquatch (May 26, 2022)

Degen said:


> For those interested I have a son with learning difficulties that can remove any bolt.  Just to be clear I said remove....one way or another......as his shop teach found out on a brand new engine he was building.......
> 
> BTW righty tighty and left loosy has no mean he keeps turning till it comes off.



I think my wife has the same determination.


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## Canadium (May 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> It's not even back together yet and it's already the envy of at least one person in the crowd! And I'd bet quite a few others feel the same way I do......



I'll trade you my DH for your surface grinder!


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I'll trade you my DH for your surface grinder!



Hmmmmm...... 

Lemme think about it for a few years.......


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## Canadium (Jun 3, 2022)

I'm having a @#&! of a time with the worm gear assembly on my DH. Some time ago I thought I had freed up all the axis of rotation. I was wrong! The worm gear assembly should rotate as a whole (which it does) but the worm gear should also rotate inside the assembly on  a couple of brass bushings (which it doesn't). I have to take the assembly apart. As far as I can tell in order to do this I have to remove a taper pin first. However the back side of this pin is not easily accessible because it faces the worm gear shaft. The pin extends slightly out into a slot in the brass bushing. I managed to push the pin out a mm or 2 till flush with the inner bore but that was not enough to free it entirely. The pin does not stick out enough on the outer surface for me to grab onto it and pull it the rest of the way. Any suggestions on how to solve this problem???


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## Susquatch (Jun 3, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I'm having a @#&! of a time with the worm gear assembly on my DH. Some time ago I thought I had freed up all the axis of rotation. I was wrong! The worm gear assembly should rotate as a whole (which it does) but the worm gear should also rotate inside the assembly on  a couple of brass bushings (which it doesn't). I have to take the assembly apart. As far as I can tell in order to do this I have to remove a taper pin first. However the back side of this pin is not easily accessible because it faces the worm gear shaft. The pin extends slightly out into a slot in the brass bushing. I managed to push the pin out a mm or 2 till flush with the inner bore but that was not enough to free it entirely. The pin does not stick out enough on the outer surface for me to grab onto it and pull it the rest of the way. Any suggestions on how to solve this problem???
> 
> View attachment 24292



I have no idea what I'm looking at there. Could you take a few more photos of this pin?


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## Tom O (Jun 3, 2022)

Isn’t that just to engage the teeth or have it freewheel for direct indexing?


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## Canadium (Jun 3, 2022)

Great progress! Once I pushed the pin out a few more thou it was no longer locking the brass bushing and worm gear in place. Now mostly disassembled!

Sorry I wasn't able to make this problem more clear. My old software I used for adding labels to pictures no longer works on the new windows and I haven't yet found a suitable replacement. In the pic in my previous post you can just barely see the pin sticking out a mm on the upper right hand side of the cylinder that holds the worm gear. At the top of the cylinder you can see the worm gear shaft protruding. The brass bushing is slightly recessed into the inner bore and you can see a couple of slots in the brass transecting the gear shaft. Probably clear as mud?


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## Susquatch (Jun 3, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Great progress! Once I pushed the pin out a few more thou it was no longer locking the brass bushing and worm gear in place. Now mostly disassembled!
> 
> Sorry I wasn't able to make this problem more clear. My old software I used for adding labels to pictures no longer works on the new windows and I haven't yet found a suitable replacement. In the pic in my previous post you can just barely see the pin sticking out a mm on the upper right hand side of the cylinder that holds the worm gear. At the top of the cylinder you can see the worm gear shaft protruding. The brass bushing is slightly recessed into the inner bore and you can see a couple of slots in the brass transecting the gear shaft. Probably clear as mud?
> 
> View attachment 24296



Actually quite clear. I seem to have difficulty understanding lots of stuff others say on here. Yours was just fine. 

Glad you made more good progress.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 4, 2022)

It's coming along nicely.


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## Canadium (Jun 4, 2022)

Looks like I'm going to need an adjustable pin spanner to remove the last couple of parts from the back of the worm gear assembly. While I wait for that to arrive I think I will start cleaning up the parts.


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## Susquatch (Jun 4, 2022)

Canadium said:


> Looks like I'm going to need an adjustable pin spanner to remove the last couple of parts from the back of the worm gear assembly. While I wait for that to arrive I think I will start cleaning up the parts.
> 
> View attachment 24304



I assume you need/want the tool anyway and didn't want to make one. 

I like to make these out of the head of a bolt. I use Bolts all the time as stock for my lathe. Its cheaper than buying steel. Then I have left over bolt heads. 

I use a bolt head the right size for the job, then drill it and thread it for two 1/4" grub screws. I also chuck the grub screws and turn their noses down to fit the holes in the part I want to loosen or tighten. 

The reason for using a bolt head is to facilitate a wrench or socket.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I assume you need/want the tool anyway and didn't want to make one.
> 
> I like to make these out of the head of a bolt. I use Bolts all the time as stock for my lathe. Its cheaper than buying steel. Then I have left over bolt heads.
> 
> ...



Need a pic in order to visualize that........


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Need a pic in order to visualize that........



Here is one I posted earlier. It's a big one, and it needs the center bored out, but it shows the idea. And yes, farmers need BIG nuts.

Post in thread 'Bridgeport Project' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/bridgeport-project.3521/post-48818

Basically, you custom make them for the job at hand and then set them aside as part of the tool kit for whatever thing you needed them for. Sometimes they need a flange, sometimes a collar, sometimes a bore. The common feature is an outside hex to get a regular wrench on, they are stronger than a spanner, and they are cheap cheap cheap.


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## Canadium (Jun 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Here is one I posted earlier. It's a big one, and it needs the center bored out, but it shows the idea. And yes, farmers need BIG nuts.
> 
> Post in thread 'Bridgeport Project' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/bridgeport-project.3521/post-48818
> 
> Basically, you custom make them for the job at hand and then set them aside as part of the tool kit for whatever thing you needed them for. Sometimes they need a flange, sometimes a collar, sometimes a bore. The common feature is an outside hex to get a regular wrench on, they are stronger than a spannner, and they are cheap cheap cheap.



I don't have any bolts that big kicking around! I would have to borrow some from my local hydro tower!


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2022)

Canadium said:


> I don't have any bolts that big kicking around! I would have to borrow some from my local hydro tower!



Anyplace with big machinery will have them laying around.

And like you say, I'd bet Hydro, has them. And prolly the municipality, farm supply stores, used farm equipment yards, rail yards, ship yards, etc etc have them laying around too.


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## Canadium (Jun 9, 2022)

There's trouble in paradise! I've been cleaning up parts on my DH and testing assemblies for fit and freedom of rotation. All was well until I got to the main body and the rails its supposed to turn on in the base/cradle. These two main parts were very difficult to pull apart and required considerable force to separate. I reasoned though that it was just dirt grime and corrosion and a lot of cleaning would solve the problem. Bur now I've cleaned and cleaned until I could do no more with the rails that these parts are supposed to rotate on and still these two parts only come together if they are forced. No way they're gonna rotate like this I thought. There must be something wrong! So I decided to make some measurements to better understand what was going on.

So as it turns out the part on the main body that rides the rails on the cradle measured an even 4.723 inches wide (120mm) all around. The rails on the cradle however were a different matter! On the cradle the rail measured the same 4.723 in the middle, but just 4.712 on the chuck side (the front side in the pic and the top of the fork), and only 4.718 on the oppsite side behind the chuck. To make a long story short the rails on the cradle are too narrow and not exactly parallel. The rails are as much as 11 thou too narrow at the top of the forks where the chuck goes on!

My theory is that this device was once seriously abused with a hammer causing the cradle to slightly deform. You can still see the numerous hammer marks on the back (the right side in the pic)!

Now what do I do???


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## Dabbler (Jun 9, 2022)

If it has been bashed, then the cradles might also be out of alignment a little bit.  but fixing that comes much later...

Starting with it being cast iron, we have to go gently.  if someone bashed it, there will be stress fractures in the casting.  If malleable iron or cast steel, this won't be as much of a problem, but let's assume the worst case for a minute.

Induced stress in a cast part can be somewhat relieved by heating and cooling cycles.  You can also stress relieve grey iron using mechanical means - percussive maintenance...  You hang it buy a rope or chain, and whack it with a wooden mallet from all angles several hundred times...  Heating an cooling can also have a beneficial effect,  I have seen guys recommend heating to 450-500 degrees, but my 'old school' Dad said that 250-300 degrees, then slowly cool, then repeat.  Measure every 3 or so cycles, and certainly after whacking it with a wooden lmallet.  Your casting will only move so far.  any further remedy has to be by machining.

11 thou is a lot.  You can then make a setup and using a boring head to dust the gimbal.  You have to have the piece indicated in to a very high tolerance before boring or you will ruin the part.  It is not unreasonable to be square to 2 tenths before proceeding.

You are lucky in that you know what surface is out, so the other gimbal is your reference surface.


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## Canadium (Jun 12, 2022)

My initial thinking went along similar lines to what @Dabbler recommended. Some stretching some heating, some tapping to get it back into shape. It dawned on me though that I needed to know just how bendable or malleable CI really is. So according to Google I found CI isn't very malleable at all and more likely to crack than adopt a different shape! I had made a simple device from some scrap all thread to stretch the cradle a little. After several cycles of strectching, heating and tapping I found the cradle just relaxed back to its original shape. I decided to do a couple of tests to see if the cradle is real grey CI or more malleable iron. The first test is to make a dimple with a punch. If malleable iron a ridge should form around the perimeter of the dimple detectible to the touch. If CI no ridge around the dimple is formed. On my piece no ridge was detectible. For the second test the dimple wqs drilled. If malleable iron a bit of stringiness in the swarf should be detectible. Otherwise only a powder is formed if it is CI. On my piece only a powder was formed. My conclusion is that my cradle is worst case CI and the best solution would be to machine it. I have no idea how I will be able to machine it to that degree of accuracy however! I wish my mill was working!


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## RobinHood (Jun 12, 2022)

Is the base flat?

Here is what I think happened: they torqued the mounting bolts (DH to table mounting bolts) really hard with crud under the sides and thus stressed (bowed?) the center of the cradle. There is no way that the cradle moved with the DH fully assembled as the insides are hard against the shoulder of the rotating element when assembled. The cradle only moved after you pulled out the rotating element.

I would try and assemble it. Well lubed, it may still allow you to rotate it. Yes, 11 thou is a lot. But there is large surface area where the inside makes contact with the shoulder on the rotating element.  Once assembled, it could well be that it ends up just snug.

I would use some form of jacking screw between the cradle ears and try to put it back together. It may yield easier than you think.

It was together, so it will go back, especially since you cleaned it so well.

Then I would again check the base for flatness. Adjust as required while using the DH to not put more stress into the CI going forward.

Machining it could be problematic as you may relieve even more stresses and make the whole thing worse.


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## Dabbler (Jun 12, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Machining it could be problematic as you may relieve even more stresses and make the whole thing worse.


Good point!


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## RobinHood (Jun 12, 2022)

Looking at the cradle, you could bolt it to a stout piece so angle using bolts in the through holes at the front (where the “ears” lean in the most) and use a small shim under the center mounting slot area (maybe 5 thou thick). Then tighten up the bolts slowly and it should spread the uprights apart enough (you can measure your progress) and the rotating part should drop right in.

You could also put the whole set-up (with the angle iron bolted to it) on the BBQ for some heat cycles to try and bring it back to the original “neutral“ position. You may have to open the ears just a bit more to get the final parallelism so it stays there once the angle strap is removed.


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## Canadium (Jun 13, 2022)

The base appears to be almost perfectly flat, within a thou, although heavily scratched and worn out of spec around the edges.


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