# spring connectors



## PeterT (Jan 19, 2020)

(I think that's what they are called). Anything to know about them like clones are bad vs. generically all the same? 
I always seem to have the wrong size for whatever I have to repair so was looking at a progressive kit along these lines.
https://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Co...c+wire+screw+connectors&qid=1579484596&sr=8-5


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## Brent H (Jan 19, 2020)

Hey Peter.
Those are marrettes or wire nuts.  I like the ones that are multi wire and have a wide size of wire they will positively hold.  
Blue ones - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ideal-can-twist-wire-connector-300-pack-/1000665625


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## PeterT (Jan 19, 2020)

Good to know! I'm borderline clueless on sparky stuff. 
I'm guessing the wings are to add easier finger torque or some other purpose?
I thought read somewhere they don't even necessarily have to be metal inside, that's just how they evolved. But it maybe that was for completely different purpose.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 19, 2020)

Marrs or Marettes. Kind of old school now. I've got tons if you need them.

These work better.


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## PeterT (Jan 19, 2020)

Ah, another option! I've seen those before. Once the wires click in, is that considered permanent or is there some kind of release?

PT where do you buy your electrical stuff like that in Calgary? I used to frequent MRO & they had lots of goodies, but seems like I'm rarely available during business hours.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 19, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Ah, another option! I've seen those before. Once the wires click in, is that considered permanent or is there some kind of release?
> 
> PT where do you buy your electrical stuff like that in Calgary? I used to frequent MRO & they had lots of goodies, but seems like I'm rarely available during business hours.


No release. They work great. I like them because they are permanent. Sometimes Marr connectors feel tight and secure and then they suddenly just fall off. I hate that. I switched first to the blue tabbed ones @Brent H mentioned because they can be tightened easier, but once I found these push types a few years ago I never went back. I've never used them on stranded wire though—but they are supposed to work just as well. I especially like them in vibration prone areas, such as motor housings. No electrical tape to wrap around like Marrs.

In Calgary Home Depot sells them in every store I've been in, even our small Tuscany one: https://www.homedepot.ca/search?q=wire push connectors#!q=wire push connectors


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## Dabbler (Jan 20, 2020)

I've never used the ones pictured by CalgaryPT;  I use the old screw-in Marrs a lot.  Why I stayed away was because of the early version of them that used to be in the back of regular switches and outlets, where you'd strip a 1/2 inch section and just insert.  Fixed a lot of fried fixtures because those type didn't work well in the long term.

I'm pretty sure the ones  in post 5 are much better and completely different construction.  They are used in industrial wiring installations inside motor boxes, etc.  I haven't seen one fail yet. (I've just never used one myself)  

@CalgaryPT do yours have a lever that folds over to make the connection?  The industrial motor controllers seem to have this lever.


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## trlvn (Jan 20, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> I've never used the ones pictured by CalgaryPT; I use the old screw-in Marrs a lot. Why I stayed away was because of the early version of them that used to be in the back of regular switches and outlets, where you'd strip a 1/2 inch section and just insert. Fixed a lot of fried fixtures because those type didn't work well in the long term.



+1

In household wiring, I always felt it was a sign of cheap workmanship to see switches and outlets connected with the push-in option.  Wrapped around a screw terminal or under a clamp plate was superior.

I've never seen those push-in connectors ("In-Sure"?).  Sometimes electrical boxes are pretty full.  Do these style connectors take more space or less?

Craig


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

You're right, WRT to cheap workmanship and the old switches. Electricians never used them because they were prone to failure. A City inspector once told me it was because there was less surface area to contact. If I recall (1980s?), it used to be against code to use the ones on the back of switches. But that was also in the aluminium wire days, and in those days the push in terminals on switches probably had to cater to both worlds. The "In-sures" these days can only be used on copper, not AL.

They must be better now (although more expensive than Marr connectors) as I see them used more often. I especially see them used in recessed LED fixtures. This answers your question about space. I think they use them in these smaller fixtures because they take up less space. They certainly are neater. 

And BTW, I was wrong about reusability. I just read the instructions more closely on a package of push in types. Apparently there is a way to reuse them by twisting the wire out—but only for solid wire.

No lever @Dabbler ...the wires just push in and (apparently) can be pulled out with a special movement.

The only drawback I can see from them (assuming they work as well as Marrs) is weatherproofing. I know guys who make rockclimber vehicles and they routinely put heat shrink around the connections to protect them. In that kind of vibration prone environment I'd use NASA splices ONLY, solder and weatherproof heat shrink. But no way I'm cool enough to be a rock climber anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter.

I think Marrs will be around for long time still. But the In-sures are pretty neat and seem to take up less space as the number of splices increases. They are both UL and CSA approved, and I don't see any restriction on where there can be used. I will ask an electrician friend next time I see him and then update this thread.

Choices are good


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## Brent H (Jan 20, 2020)

If you want to go ballistic with wire connections, we use some of theses on the ship - especially for the large horsepower motors (50 hp 600 v 3 phase type things)





They have a socket head set screw in the one port and wire goes in the other.  Insulated so the wire cannot short out - like a mini buss bar.  

For other applications I like setting up a terminal strip on a din rail in a cabinet for multiple low voltage connections  - like if I was wiring up new lathe controls that had safety switches, relays etc you can even add low amp trip breakers etc

If we are using the Marrettes, typically ours are the set screw type verses the twist on and then wrapped with self  vulcanizing electrical tape.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

Brent H said:


> If you want to go ballistic with wire connections, we use some of theses on the ship - especially for the large horsepower motors (50 hp 600 v 3 phase type things)
> 
> View attachment 7283
> They have a socket head set screw in the one port and wire goes in the other.  Insulated so the wire cannot short out - like a mini buss bar.
> ...


Yeah, I bet on a ship everything has to be this scale of "bulletproofness," right? I always wanted a ship tour—not a cruise ship but a working ship. That must be so interesting to have to design with life threatening failure in mind.

Self vulcanizing tape is great, but expensive compared to vinyl for home use. Apparently there's some company that sells split loom type heat shrink tubing that has a self-vulcanizing strip on in it. You wrap it on (can be over existing splice) and activate it with a heat gun. I saw a post on an RC forum where a guy used it. But I can't find it anywhere. I'm sure it is expensive, but might be fun to try.

Thanks for your post. I love learning about stuff like this.


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## Brent H (Jan 20, 2020)

There is the heat shrink tubing that has a waterproofing adhesive in the liner that activates as you heat gun it - great stuff and does water proof the joined cables.  Princess auto has it and you can buy heavier industrial stuff for more "ballistic" applications  LOL  - the gas guys use it to seal up joints in the splices and I have seen it used over crimp splices etc   They also make crimp connectors with the heat shrink goo ready to go - great for small boat stuff to avoid corrosion on the connections.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/12-6-AWG-Heavy-Wall-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-Black-2-Pack-HWT-0020/205881685

https://www.amazon.ca/HOODDEAL-Waterproof-Solder-Connectors-Soldering/dp/B00ESXX74G


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## PeterT (Jan 20, 2020)

I called Electrical Wholesalers on a different matter. They don't carry the In-sure (although they are a distributor for Ideal). They do carry Wago though. Looks like a lever clamp mechanism. I guess the upside is maybe you can remove clamped wires vs. snipping the wire although PT indicates there might be a way to safely remove wires with In-Sure's. Wago's are more expensive though.

https://www.amazon.ca/WAGO-221-412-...ocphy=9001292&hvtargid=pla-349155026286&psc=1


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

Those must be the levers @Dabbler referred to. Thanks.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

On a similar topic, does anyone know how car companies do this trick to terminate wires temporarily (see pic below)? I have a F250 and it has a series of pass-through wires that go from under the dash through the firewall and terminate under the hood. They are either connected to upfitter switches, or in some cases just orphaned so you can get juice back and forth as needed. (Or as @PeterT calls it, "sparky stuff." Love that.)

I like the way these are terminated. Seems cheap, effective and neat. I've been trying to replicate for years. Clearly it is heat shrink tubing with I think either hot melt glue or silicon shot in the tip. The hot glue would make sense as it immediately would shrink the tubing. However, it is impossible to replicate this method except on the largest of wires and tubing. Trying to squirt the glue in means the tip of the gun melts the tubing right away. How do they do this? Do they use a magic hot glue syringe thingy or something? Or is it a special fast setting and expanding glue? I asked the Ford mechanic on my street and he doesn't know either.

I love the technique and would like to use it for a bunch of stuff. As I get older I try to plan more ahead and always run extra wires for future purposes. I'd can't figure how they get the glue in there. And now it's a mystery I have to solve.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

I think I just solved my own mystery:

https://www.hotmelt.com/products/ad-tech-needle-nose-hot-melt-glue-gun-nozzle


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## Chicken lights (Jan 20, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> On a similar topic, does anyone know how car companies do this trick to terminate wires temporarily (see pic below)? I have a F250 and it has a series of pass-through wires that go from under the dash through the firewall and terminate under the hood. They are either connected to upfitter switches, or in some cases just orphaned so you can get juice back and forth as needed. (Or as @PeterT calls it, "sparky stuff." Love that.)
> 
> I like the way these are terminated. Seems cheap, effective and neat. I've been trying to replicate for years. Clearly it is heat shrink tubing with I think either hot melt glue or silicon shot in the tip. The hot glue would make sense as it immediately would shrink the tubing. However, it is impossible to replicate this method except on the largest of wires and tubing. Trying to squirt the glue in means the tip of the gun melts the tubing right away. How do they do this? Do they use a magic hot glue syringe thingy or something? Or is it a special fast setting and expanding glue? I asked the Ford mechanic on my street and he doesn't know either.
> 
> ...


https://www.grote.com/sub-family/dual-wall-31-heat-shrink-tubing/

Usually the dual wall has the glue inside it already


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> https://www.grote.com/sub-family/dual-wall-31-heat-shrink-tubing/
> 
> Usually the dual wall has the glue inside it already


Yup, agreed. But if you zoom in on these (sorry my pic isn't very good), it's clear there is something other than the wall adhesive inside it. It's oozing out as a white/clear rubbery substance. Feels exactly like hot melt or silicon.


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## PeterT (Jan 20, 2020)

Kind of hard to see here under the kapton tape but what I do is over extend the heat shrink from the (in this case) 2 wires, maybe 10mm, use the heat gun to shrink as normal, but before it cools squeeze the excess shrink with flat pliers. The shrink adhesive is already activated so it sticks pretty good to itself. The odd time (under very hot environment) I have re-sealed joints that may have opened up with a bit of CA glue (crazy glue) in the gap & just pinch them for a sec, it bonds instantly. I have also seen the odd 'industrial' example similar to your vehicle what looks like plastic or silicon plug of the same wire gauge. Just assumed they just heat shrunk over a dummy ended something-er-other so they could get access to the lead end if necessary?


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## Chicken lights (Jan 20, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Yup, agreed. But if you zoom in on these (sorry my pic isn't very good), it's clear there is something other than the wall adhesive inside it. It's oozing out as a white/clear rubbery substance. Feels exactly like hot melt or silicon.


That could be. I’m not gonna argue about it. 
I just know when I use heat shrink it comes out as a hot melted glue that helps seal things, under the layer that’s been shrunk 

I do know the upfitter switches wiring you’re referring to, I have used them on one of my trucks. Possibly ford has a special source?

I just don’t see a way to inject hot glue under a piece of heat shrink? Maybe it’s do able?


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 20, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Kind of hard to see here under the kapton tape but what I do is over extend the heat shrink from the (in this case) 2 wires, maybe 10mm, use the heat gun to shrink as normal, but before it cools squeeze the excess shrink with flat pliers. The shrink adhesive is already activated so it sticks pretty good to itself. The odd time (under very hot environment) I have re-sealed joints that may have opened up with a bit of CA glue (crazy glue) in the gap & just pinch them for a sec, it bonds instantly. I have also seen the odd 'industrial' example similar to your vehicle what looks like plastic or silicon plug of the same wire gauge. Just assumed they just heat shrunk over a dummy ended something-er-other so they could get access to the lead end if necessary?


The pliers trick sounds good.


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## PeterT (Jan 20, 2020)

I didn't know this until recently but you can get (or make) tips for hot glue guns. Maybe depending on the gun itself but the one I have came with a single copper looking tube. I always figured they would cool off & plug at the tip but I guess if the gun has enough heat & metal conducts it well enough. Not sure how many applications its suitable for but some shop trivia to store away.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 31, 2020)

Just thought I would update this thread. Not sure why this issue was bugging me so much, probably because I've had so many small wire issues to deal with these past months.

Anyways, the guy who used to live down the street from me is an electrician and he also was a DND contractor in the USA for a while. Clever fellow. I ran into him this AM and asked about this trick Ford uses. He said that for larger wire you can buy cored glue pins. They are basically shaped like a grain of rice, but larger. You stick them in the end of the heat shrink and melt them that way. But he didn't know if they made them in small sizes (I doubt it). He'd only used them on 6 or 4 gauge that he recalls. What he did do was tell me another trick he used. 

After sizing the wire to the tubing, you strip off a piece of the wire about 1/2". You SAVE the insulation. Then you trim off the wire you just striped so none of it is showing. Next insert the wire into the tubing, but in the end of it you stuff the piece of installation you just saved. Now you heat shrink it all and what you end up with is a temporary capped wire for future use. The insulation colour codes the wires, but even if it touches something metal there won't be a ESD as the first 1/2" of the tubing is just inert insulation you cut off the wire. It works better with double wall tubing obviously, but I tried it on single wall and it works just fine (see last two pics).

I also tried the pliers trick but on double walled tubing. I like this the best actually (first pic).

Happy chassis wiring.


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## PeterT (Jan 31, 2020)

I just had an idea if you really want the plugged off end concept. You can get O-rings in a wide range of cross section diameters & material types, silicone, viton, buna...  You could just snip off say 1/2" length, then use 1" of heat shrink so half was bonded on the wire & half to the O-ring stock. It would probably adhere really well to the O-ring material just like the wire coating. When it comes time to access the wire, just splice off the heat shrink as normal. If you were going to do many, you can buy O-ring cord.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 31, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I just had an idea if you really want the plugged off end concept. You can get O-rings in a wide range of cross section diameters & material types, silicone, viton, buna...  You could just snip off say 1/2" length, then use 1" of heat shrink so half was bonded on the wire & half to the O-ring stock. It would probably adhere really well to the O-ring material just like the wire coating. When it comes time to access the wire, just splice off the heat shrink as normal. If you were going to do many, you can buy O-ring cord.


Agreed. O-ring material is great for many uses. Thanks again.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

Have you ever seen the non-insulated butt connectors for wiring?


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Have you ever seen the non-insulated butt connectors for wiring?


No I haven't. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose though? Isn't the idea of a butt connector to connect two wires and be able to disconnect at some point?


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> No I haven't. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose though? Isn't the idea of a butt connector to connect two wires and be able to disconnect at some point?


Ah wait, I see your point. I was thinking BULLET connectors. Too many B's.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Ah wait, I see your point. I was thinking BULLET connectors. Too many B's.









I find it really quick and seems to work well. Strip, crimp, heatshrink, done. 
They come in a variety of sizes. 

Just another way of doing things


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## John Conroy (Feb 1, 2020)

I use those too. That kind of wire repair meets most automotive OEM specs with one added step. Strip, crimp, *solder*, sealing heat shrink.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

I like using weatherpack fittings, if I need to unplug things or take it apart later. It’s a bit fiddly to do but they work great, a lot better than bullet connectors if it’s outside


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

Hey I'm liking those. Do they need a proprietary crimper? Can you solder them?


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Hey I'm liking those. Do they need a proprietary crimper? Can you solder them?


Yes, the blue handled pliers are for that purpose. 
Sure, you could crimp then solder after.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

Thanks. I'm going to look into these. Should have known Kyle Voss did a vid on vid on them already:


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

One trick I learned is to pre-crimp the part that goes on the insulation. Then use the blue pliers to crimp everything. 
You end up with a rubber gasket on the wire, and a rubber gasket on the plug itself


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

And just when I thought I had every crimper out there....


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## Chicken lights (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> And just when I thought I had every crimper out there....


Nope haha 

You need a nut-sert rivet tool, too, if you don’t already have one


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Nope haha
> 
> You need a nut-sert rivet tool, too, if you don’t already have one


Oh I have a couple of those, as well as two air riveters. But I have to behave for a while, I smuggled this into the shop this week...


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> On a similar topic, does anyone know how car companies do this trick to terminate wires temporarily (see pic below)? I have a F250 and it has a series of pass-through wires that go from under the dash through the firewall and terminate under the hood. They are either connected to upfitter switches, or in some cases just orphaned so you can get juice back and forth as needed. (Or as @PeterT calls it, "sparky stuff." Love that.)
> 
> I like the way these are terminated. Seems cheap, effective and neat. I've been trying to replicate for years. Clearly it is heat shrink tubing with I think either hot melt glue or silicon shot in the tip. The hot glue would make sense as it immediately would shrink the tubing. However, it is impossible to replicate this method except on the largest of wires and tubing. Trying to squirt the glue in means the tip of the gun melts the tubing right away. How do they do this? Do they use a magic hot glue syringe thingy or something? Or is it a special fast setting and expanding glue? I asked the Ford mechanic on my street and he doesn't know either.
> 
> ...


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 1, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Chicken lights, post: 19322, membre: 1016"] https://www.grote.com/sub-family/dual-wall-31-heat-shrink-tubing/

Habituellement, la double paroi contient déjà de la colle [/ QUOTE]
Oui c'est en plein sa et c'est la compagnie que j'utilise c'est du très bon matériel.


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## YYCHM (Feb 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Oh I have a couple of those, as well as two air riveters. But I have to behave for a while, I smuggled this into the shop this week...
> 
> View attachment 7511



What is it?


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 1, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Chicken lights, post: 19815, membre: 1016"]View attachment 7507View attachment 7508View attachment 7509View attachment 7510
Une astuce que j'ai apprise est de pré-sertir la partie qui va sur l'isolation. Utilisez ensuite la pince bleue pour tout sertir.
Vous vous retrouvez avec un joint en caoutchouc sur le fil et un joint en caoutchouc sur la fiche elle-même [/ QUOTE]
Parfait c'est connections sont parfaites et je n'ai jamais vue de corrosion a l'intérieur. utilisé par Ford GM Chrysler et autres.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What is it?


It's a power bead roller. I had a older one I was borrowing for years but had to give it back. If you Google Bead Roller Art you'll see what it does. Lots of fun with sheet metal. Just making a stand now as the old one bolted to the workbench but this one is a lot bigger.


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## PeterT (Feb 1, 2020)

_But I have to behave for a while, I smuggled this into the shop this week..._

You mean the 'electric party platter' you got her for Xmas 11 months from now? Yes, keep it out of sight or camouflaged in with the tools! LOL


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 1, 2020)

LOL x10. You see the dish on the far right: the pickle? That's what I'll be in when she finds out.

Thanks. My laugh for the day


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> It's a power bead roller. I had a older one I was borrowing for years but had to give it back. If you Google Bead Roller Art you'll see what it does. Lots of fun with sheet metal. Just making a stand now as the old one bolted to the workbench but this one is a lot bigger.


Ok-

Does bead rolling really add that much strength or are you just better off starting with thicker material?


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Ok-
> 
> Does bead rolling really add that much strength or are you just better off starting with thicker material?



It's the difference between night and day. Huge amounts of strength. There's actually a whole area of materials science devoted to bead rolling and strengthening materials by shrinking and stretching. It really took off with the air force and the need for long range bombers that could breach the Mid-Altantic Gap during WWII. As great a material as aluminum was, they still needed to reduce weight. Bomber design evolved and that's why you see an increase in the use of dimple dies and bead rolling on aircraft of the time. To reach the German wolf packs engineers needed to reduce weight of aircraft, but still have strong structures. If fact, if you look at 1940's bomber seats, you see how great they look, but it was actually due to design and the need to reduce weight.

Bead rolling, dimple dies, etc., all add strength and reduce weight when used properly. The artistic stuff came later. It you look at the work of Jamey Jordan (http://www.handmadeseatco.com/) who specializes in seats, you see the evolution of design and art in the metal. Modern truck beds or firewalls made of aluminum or ever thiner gauge steel are all possible because of bead rolling or engineered stamp/flange forming of materials. Using non-destructive testing you can now add a bead or bend, look at the material under stress and see how it is stronger. Really cool stuff for geeky engineering people. There's a fellow name Lazze on the internet who teaches how to make panels stronger with bead rollers and other machines. It's like his brain is hard wired for this stuff, and he just "gets it" (https://www.youtube.com/user/lazzemetalshaping). Amazing man to listen to.

Depending how it is designed, a properly rolled 20 gauge panel will actually be stronger than an unrolled 18 or thicker gauge panel. In the case of something like floor pans, the interior beads put the panel under stress and form mini "reinforcing lines" within the panel. It's like having welded tiny I beams across the panel, but with no added weight.

I don't pretend to be as competent as any of these guys, but even with my old hand crank bead roller I could make some cool stuff. I think it's a little like playing the saxophone; anyone can learn a few cool songs, but it takes a lifetime of practice to get really good at it.


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## PeterT (Feb 2, 2020)

_.... a fellow name Lazze on the internet who teaches how to make panels _

I stumbled on his channel a while back. Metal shaping is very cool stuff. 
On a side note I really like this locking arm jig principle. I can think of lots of cool applications for that mechanism. Ball turner project number 697 in the que.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> It's the difference between night and day. Huge amounts of strength. There's actually a whole area of materials science devoted to bead rolling and strengthening materials by shrinking and stretching. It really took off with the air force and the need for long range bombers that could breach the Mid-Altantic Gap during WWII. As great a material as aluminum was, they still needed to reduce weight. Bomber design evolved and that's why you see an increase in the use of dimple dies and bead rolling on aircraft of the time. To reach the German wolf packs engineers needed to reduce weight of aircraft, but still have strong structures. If fact, if you look at 1940's bomber seats, you see how great they look, but it was actually due to design and the need to reduce weight.
> 
> Bead rolling, dimple dies, etc., all add strength and reduce weight when used properly. The artistic stuff came later. It you look at the work of Jamey Jordan (http://www.handmadeseatco.com/) who specializes in seats, you see the evolution of design and art in the metal. Modern truck beds or firewalls made of aluminum or ever thiner gauge steel are all possible because of bead rolling or engineered stamp/flange forming of materials. Using non-destructive testing you can now add a bead or bend, look at the material under stress and see how it is stronger. Really cool stuff for geeky engineering people. There a fellow name Lazze on the internet who teaches how to make panels stronger with bead rollers and other machine. It's like his brain is hard wired for this stuff, and he just "gets it." (https://www.youtube.com/user/lazzemetalshaping). Amazing man to listen to.
> 
> ...


That’s really cool to learn about, thanks. I’ll check out the link to Lazze

What’s the difference in strength between a bead roll and a “z” shape?


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

PeterT said:


> _.... a fellow name Lazze on the internet who teaches how to make panels _
> Ball turner project number 697 in the que.


Darn Peter, you're in deep.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> That’s really cool to learn about, thanks. I’ll check out the link to Lazze
> 
> What’s the difference in strength between a bead roll and a “z” shape?


_A Z bend is just one type bead you can make on a bead roller._

Typically it is made on a press for thicker metals (above 16 gauge). But it can be bead rolled usually up to 16 gauge.  On a bead roller sometimes this is called a flange bend. Bead rollers have many, many different shapes of beads. You just change the dies to get a different profile, or do different things like put a hem on the edge of sheet metal. If you have a lathe, you can make your own dies—it's fun.  I make Delrin soft dies sometimes as they don't scratch the metal like steel does and are good for artwork. Here's some examples of some bead roll die profiles: https://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-bros/bead-rollers/standard-bead-rolls.html

Typically, making a flange (Z bend) involves a stepping die, These come in hard (90 degree) or soft (45 degree) steps or profiles. You can use them to fit two pieces of sheet together for a body panel, then weld and sand the seam so it is invisible. I prefer softer 45 degree step dies to make Z bends or flanges because the transition from one sheet to another when you weld is smoother. You get a wider seam too that you can apply patina on and make some nice artwork. As far as I know there is no strength difference between a Z bend done on a press and those done on a bead roller (or it's stubby length brother called a "Flange Roller").

Some companies even make custom dies with barbed wire or chain patterns: https://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-bros/bead-rollers/gold-series.html

Z bends are commonly used on body panel work. The seams these days are typically spot welded at intervals and then Bondo-ed and sanded. A advantage of the bead roller for Z bends or flange bending is that it is infinite: you can do any length unlike a press. Best of all you can do any shape of curve—something you can't do on a press.

If you are into steampunk art, a cool thing a bead roller is used for is to make the flanges (Z bends) and then solid rivet the sheets together. It looks great: https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/riveted-steel-rivets-screws-metal-background-322266767


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> _A Z bend is just one type bead you can make on a bead roller._
> 
> Typically it is made on a press for thicker metals (above 16 gauge). But it can be bead rolled usually up to 16 gauge.  On a bead roller sometimes this is called a flange bend. Bead rollers have many, many different shapes of beads. You just change the dies to get a different profile, or do different things like put a hem on the edge of sheet metal. If you have a lathe, you can make your own dies—it's fun.  I make Delrin soft dies sometimes as they don't scratch the metal like steel does and are good for artwork. Here's some examples of some bead roll die profiles: https://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-bros/bead-rollers/standard-bead-rolls.html
> 
> ...


Holy mackerel, talk about a Pandora’s box... 

Ok- picture a rectangular piece of steel. 16g if you want to get specific. 

If I place a z bend on the bottom of it, that really only strengthens the bottom section, right? 

Using your floorpan example, if I wanted to strengthen the whole rectangle I would want to put bead rolls around the rectangle, right? 

I wish I could hire you to build me parts!


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## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2020)

https://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-bros/bead-rollers/gold-series.html

Kind of spendy for a hobby gig!


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Holy mackerel, talk about a Pandora’s box...
> 
> Ok- picture a rectangular piece of steel. 16g if you want to get specific.
> 
> ...



Right. You got it.

In your example, a Z bead is an option, but I'd put it around the entire panel as you figured out. You'd use a step roll profile bead for that, exactly what Kyle Voss does here (super interesting when you consider he'd only had his machine for a short period of time when he made this: 






But another option is to use an interior bead (such as a round or square profile, or even straight lines). Here's Jamey Jordan doing essentially that as he discusses the best dies for starting out: 






When you get really good at it you know what direction to put the lines in to make the metal curve into a beautiful wheel well or something similar.

I think you have to marry the machine to understand it that well, but guys like Lazze can do it.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> https://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-bros/bead-rollers/gold-series.html
> 
> Kind of spendy for a hobby gig!


Yup, the custom dies certainly are. But depending on the machine dies can be interchangeable across brands and you can by 3rd party ones for 30 bucks or so. Some companies cross-license their profiles as well. A lot of small hot rod companies in the USA who want to stand out will commission custom dies and then run them on stock panels. They then jack the price through the roof and keep the profit. Pays for itself in one job I expect.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Right. You got it.
> 
> In your example, a Z bead is an option, but I'd put it around the entire panel as you figured out. You'd use a step roll profile bead for that, exactly what Kyle Voss does here (super interesting when you consider he'd only had his machine for a short period of time when he made this:
> 
> ...






That needs to get fixed at some point. It was flat with just a z bend on the bottom. 16g stainless, and hinges at the top.

In this case would putting a vertical row of the round beads helpstop it from bending? Like in the Jamey Jordan vid. 

There’s a good 6” of clearance. I really don’t understand why it’s getting bent, that’s why it’s hinged.


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## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 7515
> That needs to get fixed at some point. It was flat with just a z bend on the bottom. 16g stainless, and hinges at the top.
> 
> In this case would putting a vertical row of the round beads helpstop it from bending? Like in the Jamey Jordan vid.
> ...



What are we looking at here?  It all looks bent to me?


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What are we looking at here?  It all looks bent to me?






Basically that, except mine had a z bend on the bottom


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## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2020)

Ok.... Is this something for your rig and it just hangs down hinged like that?


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Ok.... Is this something for your rig and it just hangs down hinged like that?


Yep. License plate holder 

The reason why to have it there gets a little complicated but I’m still perplexed why something on hinges is getting smashed


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

Now I'M curious, why is a plate holder on a rig designed that way?


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## Chicken lights (Feb 2, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Now I'M curious, why is a plate holder on a rig designed that way?


You had to ask...

Oversized loads require you to run oversize banners, flags, beacons etc. 

My bumper has a spot to hang the license plate in the middle of the bumper. 

BUT. When I hang the oversize banner it covers the plate, which is a ticket. 

The flip side of that is if I built a plate extension to move the plate out, I get a ticket for obscuring the banner. 

The oversize banner needs to attach to the bumper, the only other spot is the hood then you reduce cooling air for the radiator and it looks goofy 

So as much as I don’t like it hanging there, I also don’t like paying tickets


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> You had to ask...
> 
> Oversized loads require you to run oversize banners, flags, beacons etc.
> 
> ...


Glad I asked. I was thinking it had something to do with tow hooks. This makes sense now.

Man, I learn something new everyday on this forum. Thanks.


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## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2020)

Switch it out for 1/8" steel plate.... No more bending?

BTB - Were those shims I sent you of any use?

Craig


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## Chicken lights (Feb 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Switch it out for 1/8" steel plate.... No more bending?
> 
> BTB - Were those shims I sent you of any use?
> 
> Craig


If I went to thicker steel would I run the risk of ripping it off instead of it bending?

Yes the shims are great, I was able to get a couple pins adjusted so far. I’ll get more done in the future. Thanks


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