# Degen's New Project



## Degen (Aug 1, 2022)

Ok, going to match you @thestelster.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

Heres and update, now you can likely guess (its also had a few more operation)


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 10, 2022)

No clue but really should get flood and spray coolant operational on mine.


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## Susquatch (Aug 10, 2022)

For those wondering, I moved Degen's project to a new thread here per his request.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> No clue but really should get flood and spray coolant operational on mine.


I use a simple 12vdc sump pump (about $25.00 from PA). I use Ionic coolant which makes clean up a lot easier.  If you plan on doing this be prepared, even with all my splash control in place flood cooling makes a mess in the shop as it does get out.

What I like is that the tooling stays cool and sharp even when pushed.


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## PaulL (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> even with all my splash control in place flood cooling makes a mess in the shop as it does get out.


This is the fundamental question I wonder about before trying out the coolant pump in my mill (First BP clone).  How bad is it?  Are we talking thin film in a 3' radius of the machine?  Slippery?  Is it easy to clean up?  Do I invest in more shields/covers?


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## David_R8 (Aug 10, 2022)

Do they sell adult sized Muddy Buddies?


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

PaulL said:


> This is the fundamental question I wonder about before trying out the coolant pump in my mill (First BP clone).  How bad is it?  Are we talking thin film in a 3' radius of the machine?  Slippery?  Is it easy to clean up?  Do I invest in more shields/covers?


I use Microchip from KBC, basically it helps the water cool.

Floor slipper No, Potentional splash radius depends on how fast and big your bits are. I'm running a 1/2 4 Flute Carbide end mill at about 3500rpm  (should be 3000rpm but something to address later)  Running at full bit cuts 0.050" deep at 20ipm.

When I did this without splash guards 4-6ft.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> I use a simple 12vdc sump pump (about $25.00 from PA). I use Ionic coolant which makes clean up a lot easier.  If you plan on doing this be prepared, even with all my splash control in place flood cooling makes a mess in the shop as it does get out.
> 
> What I like is that the tooling stays cool and sharp even when pushed.


My mill came with the pump, sump and plumbing.  Just never used it since use is so rare and the often threads about stinky coolant are worrisome.  So I've built a spray coolant system but the power draw bar project got in the way.  But seeing that photo of the milling of the unknown project has me thinking about it again.


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## David_R8 (Aug 10, 2022)

I wonder if coolant mix in a spray bottle would be effective.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> I wonder if coolant mix in a spray bottle would be effective.


I tired that but found on a manual mill no unless its a short project and rarely and on CNC definitely not, my machine today ran about 5-6 hours and I only spent about 45min (max) in front of changing parts and pressing start.

Can you imagine the pain in your finger after 5-6 hours of pumping.


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## Susquatch (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> Can you imagine the pain in your finger after 5-6 hours of pumping.



I think that's the crux of it. NOTHING I do would ever take anywhere near that long. I'd go enclosed CNC if it did. 

All my stuff is small one-offs that take much less than an hour. I'm ok applying a little cutting fluid as needed by hand. Same goes for my lathe and drill press.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I think that's the crux of it. NOTHING I do would ever take anywhere near that long. I'd go enclosed CNC if it did.
> 
> All my stuff is small one-offs that take much less than an hour. I'm ok applying a little cutting fluid as needed by hand. Same goes for my lathe and drill press.


The longest part takes about 1.5hrs the shortest 2mins, just lots of them.  Enclosed CNC with chip removal in my dreams, currently let this make money for me.


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## Susquatch (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> The longest part takes about 1.5hrs the shortest 2mins, just lots of them.  Enclosed CNC with chip removal in my dreams, currently let this make money for me.



Ya, I guess I should have said hours operating instead of part duration. 

Bottom line is you mill for hours, I mill for minutes. A spray bottle or a brush or a dropper is all I need.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

I have to say I added flood cooling well before CNC as the finish greatly improves, not to mention extended bit life (even with HSS at that time) even for short small runs as it allowed me to use 2 hands (axises) to do custom stuff.

While cutting oils are great, they create smoke and have other nasty issues to consider with use.  Flood cooling with Ionic coolents have none of these issues,  just remember these are about cooling and flushing, not lubrication like oils do.  Each have advantages and disadvantages.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 10, 2022)

In the past with power feed each pass and a spray of say WD40 for aluminum castings.  But now that I have CNC I do more complicated paths and depth of cut, to keep things cool and not gum up, is not deep.  But with CNC that's easy.  But really does need automatic cooling: spray or flood.

This is what I bought for the spray system you see out of focus in the back.  It's the air supply regulator etc for the mister and also the regulator/oiler for the draw bar assembly.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> In the past with power feed each pass and a spray of say WD40 for aluminum castings.  But now that I have CNC I do more complicated paths and depth of cut, to keep things cool and not gum up, is not deep.  But with CNC that's easy.  But really does need automatic cooling: spray or flood.
> 
> This is what I bought for the spray system you see out of focus in the back.  It's the air supply regulator etc for the mister and also the regulator/oiler for the draw bar assembly.


I'd be interested in what you are doing for your draw bar, plans??

I am just adding a serious air drier for my air system, cooler after tank, pre-filter/water seperator, desiccant high volume drier, post ultra fine filter/water seperator, ultra dry air fingers crossed.

I also use the same mist system, works good, but flood cooling way better but the key word is flood.


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## PaulL (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> what you are doing for your draw bar, plans?


Aye - I'm short - 5'7".  My drawbar is tall.  I don't think I've ever seen it.  I reach up there blind and swear a lot.  Been thinking of adding a remote control for it.  Some sort of air thing to torque it and a solenoid to give it a tap, so I can keep my copper hammer below my head height.


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## Degen (Aug 10, 2022)

I use a https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/167135_ts.jpg works great but every now and the the drawbar needs a tap.

I have seen plans to make this into the unit.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> I'd be interested in what you are doing for your draw bar, plans??
> 
> I also use the same mist system, works good, but flood cooling way better but the key word is flood.


I bought the plans for a butterfly wrench manual system where the air valve is moved down to a place where it's reachable.  An air cylinder pushes the wrench onto the draw bar.  I think I posted some photos in another thread.  I'll see if I can find it.

Here's the issue.  Most of my tooling is Tormach Tooling; TT type but I have a number of other R8 tools.  If you aren't familiar with the TT type it's a 3/4" R8 collet with the top ground flat.  The TT holders are pulled up against the spindle as the R8 is pulled up.  To release it takes 1/2 to maybe 1 turn of the draw bar to allow the tool to be pulled out.

R8 tooling can take 10 turns.  If you turn the drawbar on the R8 TT collet 10 turns then out comes the TT holder and the R8 collet which defeats the whole point of the TT type.

What I've found is that I cannot control the Butterfly impact wrench well enough to make it turn 1/2 or 3/4 turn and then stop. This includes hall sensors and counting revs.

Here we go:








						Micro-controller controlled Pneumatic Power Draw Bar
					

This is a more appropriate place to continue the thread that started out asking about coil springs. https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/coil-springs.3876/page-2#post-51519  Finally got around to casting the patterns today.   Also since it appears that my AliExpress ordered pneumatic...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## Degen (Aug 11, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I bought the plans for a butterfly wrench manual system where the air valve is moved down to a place where it's reachable.  An air cylinder pushes the wrench onto the draw bar.  I think I posted some photos in another thread.  I'll see if I can find it.
> 
> Here's the issue.  Most of my tooling is Tormach Tooling; TT type but I have a number of other R8 tools.  If you aren't familiar with the TT type it's a 3/4" R8 collet with the top ground flat.  The TT holders are pulled up against the spindle as the R8 is pulled up.  To release it takes 1/2 to maybe 1 turn of the draw bar to allow the tool to be pulled out.
> 
> ...


Well I your case I have a solution for you.  Ditch the pneumatics and swap out for a Teknic Clearpath SDSK servo , you'll need to determine your torque required to pick accordingly (the 800 position encoder are more than sufficient for you.   A simple controller to rotate 400 to 600 counts (1/2-3/4 turn).

These are just amazing.  If you stall these thing you way over torqued them, like in the range of beyond 4x thier 100% duty cycle (don't ask how I know).

Expensive but worth every cent.  I won't use steppers.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 11, 2022)

Degen said:


> Well I your case I have a solution for you.  Ditch the pneumatics and swap out for a Teknic Clearpath SDSK servo , you'll need to determine your torque required to pick accordingly (the 800 position encoder are more than sufficient for you.   A simple controller to rotate 400 to 600 counts (1/2-3/4 turn).
> 
> These are just amazing.  If you stall these thing you way over torqued them, like in the range of beyond 4x thier 100% duty cycle (don't ask how I know).
> 
> Expensive but worth every cent.  I won't use steppers.


Yes.  The impact wrench will be replaced.  But to keep things small I want a small reduction drive to boost the torque since speed isn't a big issue.  A 3600 RPM motor with say 60:1 planetary reduction is one rev per second with a corresponding 60x increase in torque. 

Make the motor current dynamically controllable and tightening torque can always be lower than loosening torque.   I have an original UHU DC servo board supplied by Manjeet in India.  It works well and the plan was to use it to be the drive for my little unimat spindle. 





Alternatively I had two of these running XY on the mill but the motors are huge since these HP_UHUs can do 150VDC and 20A way more than is required.  Plus two more partially assembled.




Finally I also have two of the GECKO G320 servo drives (unused).








						G320X Digital Servo Drive | DC Brushed Servo Driver
					

The G320X is Geckodrive's digital DC brushed servo driver. Rated up to 20A & 80VDC with a small footprint high performance. Made in USA & ready to ship!



					www.geckodrive.com
				




However they all have the same disadvantage as would a stepper driver (I have two from Bergerda) in that setting the current dynamically is not possible.  A Bergerda AC Servo drive (or any of the other Chinese brands) usually have MODBUS but that then requires a separate serial connection to set current and therefore torque.

With the UHU series I could wire a small dip relay onto the motor direction pin to parallel a second resistor in the current set circuit.  So on tightening the relay is open and current set is through a single resistor.  On loosening the relay is closed and a second resistor in parallel with the first to increase current and therefore torque.  (Edit:  I could do that with the GECKO too).

So what's holding me up?  Casting the body and face plate of my harmonic drive (project #42) so that I can run my 4th axis and make my own gears for the reduction drive.  Which is one reason why I started playing with the harmonic drives and other kinds of reduction drives.

But it's been another hot dry summer so casting is out for a while yet since I run the furnace outside.  And now I have to wait 4 weeks before I can lift anything heavy after my TURP surgery on Tuesday.

I can wait.  This is a hobby.


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## Degen (Aug 11, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Yes.  The impact wrench will be replaced.  But to keep things small I want a small reduction drive to boost the torque since speed isn't a big issue.  A 3600 RPM motor with say 60:1 planetary reduction is one rev per second with a corresponding 60x increase in torque.
> 
> Make the motor current dynamically controllable and tightening torque can always be lower than loosening torque.   I have an original UHU DC servo board supplied by Manjeet in India.  It works well and the plan was to use it to be the drive for my little unimat spindle.
> View attachment 25487
> ...


The nice thing about the SDSK's is that they are feed like a stepper, step and direction.  Simple as pie.

As an example one of my units is about 240 in oz, 100% full rpm range from 0-1100rpm and 1050 peak @ 200rpm, I believe 10% duty cycle.  Compare this with the same size stepper and the 240 is the peak before step loss.


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## PaulL (Aug 11, 2022)

Degen said:


> The nice thing about the SDSK's is that they are feed like a stepper, step and direction.  Simple as pie.
> 
> As an example one of my units is about 240 in oz, 100% full rpm range from 0-1100rpm and 1050 peak @ 200rpm, I believe 10% duty cycle.  Compare this with the same size stepper and the 240 is the peak before step loss.


How do these drawbar machines handle holding the spindle static?  By hand I press the spindle brake while I tighten the last turn.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 11, 2022)

Degen said:


> The nice thing about the SDSK's is that they are feed like a stepper, step and direction.  Simple as pie.
> 
> As an example one of my units is about 240 in oz, 100% full rpm range from 0-1100rpm and 1050 peak @ 200rpm, I believe 10% duty cycle.  Compare this with the same size stepper and the 240 is the peak before step loss.


Servos are so much better than steppers.

All the newer servo drives are like that now.  And size for the servos is way smaller with AC servos really being small compared to brushed type.  These two have the same torque/RPM specs.

3000 RPM, 1.27 NM.  (180 oz-in)  3.8 NM peak (540 oz-in).  

For my heavier Y axis with the 4:1 that gives me 720 oz-in at 750 RPM way above what any stepper can do.  On the X axis I have 3:1 so 540 oz-in all the way up to 1000 RPM.   Looking at the current meter on the AC Servo drive display I'm not close to the max continuous current much less surge.





And quiet.  

But since I have a couple of those smaller 24V brushed motors rated at 2.7A and 3000 RPM and the drives I might as well use them.


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## Degen (Aug 11, 2022)

PaulL said:


> How do these drawbar machines handle holding the spindle static?  By hand I press the spindle brake while I tighten the last turn.


I don't have a spindle break on mine, unfortunately.  Never really run into an issue.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 11, 2022)

PaulL said:


> How do these drawbar machines handle holding the spindle static?  By hand I press the spindle brake while I tighten the last turn.


My Cheap House of Tools mill doesn't have a spindle lock.  I used a WUT as described by Rick Sparber's article in Home Shop Machinist.  


			Drawbar with Integrated Spindle Lock
		


My now servo driven spindle locks the spindle so the impact wrench or even just wrench is fine.  But I can turn it with a wrench and the V belts slip.  Once I have toothed belts that will be less of a problem.  In fact I could probably drop a lock down over the drawbar nut and tell LinuxCNC to turn the spindle half a turn since it now too runs step/dir for control.  But then once again, have to have LinuxCNC running to make it work.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 13, 2022)

Seems Princess Auto is putting a refurbished electric ratchet that is 12V and rated at up to 22 ft-lbs.  But the price is $49.95 w/o tax.  Easy enough to replace batteries with a 12v power supply and a controller that limits current and therefore sets tighten torque to 18 ft-lb, loosen to 22 ft-lb.  But I've never used an electric ratchet.  Don't want to spend $50+ to find out it's somewhat useless.  Already have an air ratchet that I rarely use.

Anyone have experience with electric ratchets?


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

Just ordered about 1,600lbs of 6061......


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

Degen said:


> Just ordered about 1,600lbs of 6061......


From where and for what?


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

Thyssen, commercial orders and for my products.  Most should be used up by mid Sept, with about 30lbs of a shavings and 30lbs of scrap.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

Degen said:


> Thyssen, commercial orders and for my products.  Most should be used up by mid Sept, with about 30lbs of a shavings and 30lbs of scrap.


What do you make?


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> What do you make?


PM sent.


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> How do these drawbar machines handle holding the spindle static?  By hand I press the spindle brake while I tighten the last turn.


Sorry didn't answer this correctly I use a butterfly wrench to tighten and loosen, no spindle locking required.  I am going to convert it to a draw bar tightener/loosener, but have to do some mod to the system (time permitting).


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

Degen said:


> PM sent.


I'm curious too.


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## YYCHM (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I'm curious too.



We all are


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

Most of my 6061 pieces have an in between state that looks like this:


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Most of my 6061 pieces have an in between state that looks like this:
> View attachment 25624


You love my shavings and scrap.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

Degen said:


> You love my shavings and scrap.


My shavings go to recycling.  They mostly oxidize in trying to melt them.  But scrap is always good.  The big problem is that 6061 isn't that great a casting alloy.  The plan this fall is to melt a bunch, raise the temperature way above pouring temperature and dissolve some copper into it. Even just 5% makes it more machinable.

But it has to be dissolved and then cooled back into ingots.  Otherwise way too hot to pour.  As it is I still have a lot of issues with porosity in my castings even after degassing before pouring.





I wouldn't be surprised if this even affects the pulley balance.


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> My shavings go to recycling.  They mostly oxidize in trying to melt them.  But scrap is always good.  The big problem is that 6061 isn't that great a casting alloy.  The plan this fall is to melt a bunch, raise the temperature way above pouring temperature and dissolve some copper into it. Even just 5% makes it more machinable.
> 
> But it has to be dissolved and then cooled back into ingots.  Otherwise way too hot to pour.  As it is I still have a lot of issues with porosity in my castings even after degassing before pouring.
> View attachment 25625
> ...


Keep me informed, interested in your results.


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## Degen (Aug 19, 2022)

If members locally (GTA) are interested on my next order if you need something I'd be happy to include it at their minimum per line item cost (not sure what it is currently as my orders are general fairly large so they are somewhat accommodating).  Throwing this out as a feeler and with the right response will consider it.


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## LenVW (Aug 20, 2022)

Sorry, I missed your post.
I will contact you with my next requirements. 
I know where you are in Brampton.  

There is still a need for ‘Regional’ CHMW message boards for sharing tooling, etc.

I have been working with a couple guys around KW and it has quickly solved a few needs that I have had for prototyping, processing and welding.


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## Susquatch (Aug 20, 2022)

LenVW said:


> There is still a need for ‘Regional’ CHMW message boards for sharing tooling, etc.



You can request a local forum here:









						Request a Local Forum
					

Don't see your city here? Request a local forum here!




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
				




Basically, the interest others show in having such a forum determines whether or not one is setup.

As you can see, there is a greater Toronto forum already that seems to reach Barrie. I'm not sure how practical that really is, but it is what it is.

I think there are a lot of members in the KWC area that prolly don't think of themselves as Greater Toronto......

As a premium member, you can also use the tool sharing forum and presumably set up a thread for KWC regional members.

No need to reply here and further dilute this thread. A simple thumbs up on this post will do and then post in the request a local forum.


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## Degen (Aug 20, 2022)

My next order like is going to be at the earliest in October.


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## LenVW (Aug 20, 2022)

Degen said:


> My next order like is going to be at the earliest in October.


I will put a reminder in my calendar.
Thanks Guenther !


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