# for those who followed my car accident



## Dabbler (Aug 30, 2022)

Finally after 5 months rehab, both Chris and I are doing better.  Bought a replacement truck today. so the episode seems to be over.  We'll both be in physio for another couple of months, to make sure progress continues.


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## David_R8 (Aug 30, 2022)

Glad you and Chris are healing up!


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## Darren (Aug 30, 2022)

Glad to hear!


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## Susquatch (Aug 30, 2022)

That was a horrible ordeal. 

I'm just glad you both lived to talk about it! 

Bonus that you are finally feeling better too.


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## 140mower (Aug 30, 2022)

Glad to hear that you guys are well on the way to resuming your normal lives. 
What did you come up with for a truck?


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## Dabbler (Aug 30, 2022)

2015 Toyota Tundra long box 4X4.  255K km  215K km


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## 140mower (Aug 30, 2022)

Nice, I am a Toyota fan, the wife has a 2019 Tacoma and we had a '92 4runner for many years. The oldest daughter rolled it over 300' down the side of a mountain one night. I still say that truck is why we still have 2 daughters ......


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## Darren (Aug 30, 2022)

I still have my 85 Toyota SR5 xtra cab 4x4. Its not quite stock anymore. Chevy 4.3, th700r4 5.29 gear, Detroit lockers, etc etc


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## Dabbler (Aug 30, 2022)

This is my first Toyota truck.  If it weren't for dishonest dealers here, I'd have a camry instead of a Mazda 3.  I *loved* my Sienna mini vans.  -- Until they became too expensive to fix.


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## 140mower (Aug 30, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> This is my first Toyota truck.  If it weren't for dishonest dealers here, I'd have a camry instead of a Mazda 3.  I *loved* my Sienna mini vans.  -- Until they became too expensive to fix.


The cost of keeping the newer vehicles alive as they age is why I took the shotgun approach...... Two '78 fords and an '89 Jeep yj. Out of the three, I should always be able to get to the parts store to keep the other two running. Lol


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## DPittman (Aug 31, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> This is my first Toyota truck.  If it weren't for dishonest dealers here, I'd have a camry instead of a Mazda 3.  I *loved* my Sienna mini vans.  -- Until they became too expensive to fix.


I have a Sienna mini van also and I've always tried not to like it (ego thing from my single guy days) but damn it it is a good vehicle.  It's got 250000kms on it so far and I've replaced a couple of 02 sensors in and just recently did the brakes for the first time and other than that it been repair free.  
I think parts for all modern vehicles are ridiculously overpriced, what about the Siennas did you find that was more out of line than other vehicles?
Yes I agree with 
@140mower 
"shotgun approach" the older vehicles are easier and cheaper to maintain and repair.  My kids think the manual roll up windows in my truck are cool.  I remember as a kid I thought electric windows were cool.


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## darrin1200 (Aug 31, 2022)

Glad your both on the mend and doing well.


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## Susquatch (Aug 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> Nice, I am a Toyota fan, the wife has a 2019 Tacoma and we had a '92 4runner for many years. The oldest daughter rolled it over 300' down the side of a mountain one night. I still say that truck is why we still have 2 daughters ......



Good chance to tell something that very few know. Most government safety standards were developed by the automakers themselves. The standards just make sure everyone meets minimums. 

But back in the labs, simulation and lab testing can be used to test and validate designs that can protect occupants in  scenarios like yours that no government standard could ever antipate. Crash energy absorbtion and energy management go WAY beyond what is required by the regulations. It is possible that your Toyota performed when another vehicle would not have, but the reverse would be true in another situation. In my opinion, cars and trucks do miracles for people every day and most people have no idea about how that happens. Very few credit the vehicle, so it's nice to read that you do. 

That aside, physics always rules and bigger is almost always better. More vehicle to control energy absorbtion and greater distances to control deceleration rates means less severe injuries and fewer fatalities.


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## Hacker (Aug 31, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Finally after 5 months rehab, both Chris and I are doing better.  Bought a replacement truck today. so the episode seems to be over.  We'll both be in physio for another couple of months, to make sure progress continues.


Glad to hear that you are recovering and getting close to the end. I would have a Toyota truck if they made something that could pull my trailer.


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## Degen (Aug 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Good chance to tell something that very few know. Most government safety standards were developed by the automakers themselves. The standards just make sure everyone meets minimums.
> 
> But back in the labs, simulation and lab testing can be used to test and validate designs that can protect occupants in  scenarios like yours that no government standard could ever antipate. Crash energy absorbtion and energy management go WAY beyond what is required by the regulations. It is possible that your Toyota performed when another vehicle would not have, but the reverse would be true in another situation. In my opinion, cars and trucks do miracles for people every day and most people have no idea about how that happens. Very few credit the vehicle, so it's nice to read that you do.
> 
> That aside, physics always rules and bigger is almost always better. More vehicle to control energy absorbtion and greater distances to control deceleration rates means less severe injuries and fewer fatalities.


I'm going to add that depending on manufacturer they are Unibody or Full Frame or a possible hybrid of the two.

Each has there strengths and weaknesses.  As long as you don't impact the weakness, life is good and if you do, not so good.

@Dabbler wasn't aware of your accident, but you have my best wishes on a full recovery.


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## Dabbler (Aug 31, 2022)

@Hacker I bought this one to tow our boat and our trailer.  I'll have to check the exact options, but it will tow anything I want to pull.  *your requirements will probably be different*


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## Crosche (Aug 31, 2022)

Really glad to hear that you are on the mend. We should try and organize an informal meeting of local members if and when you are feeling up to it.

Cheers,
Chad


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## Hruul (Aug 31, 2022)

Glad to hear that you and Chris are on the mend.  Hope the rest of the physio goes well.


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## YYCHM (Aug 31, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I bought this one to tow our boat and our trailer.



The sail boat?


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## Hacker (Sep 1, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @Hacker I bought this one to tow our boat and our trailer.  I'll have to check the exact options, but it will tow anything I want to pull.  *your requirements will probably be different*


Our trailer is close to 10,000 when loaded with water and half our house and the Tundra is rated at 10K the last time I looked. I like to have a safety factor in there as we frequently are pulling in the mountains.


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## Dabbler (Sep 1, 2022)

I'd never pull anything above 80% of the weight of the pulling vehicle, even with trailer brakes.  I found out with a near miss on the Coquhaula highway in a Ford Explorer pulling a 2000 lb load.


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## Hacker (Sep 2, 2022)

I agree staying under limits when towing adds to the safety factor and is easier on the equipment, especially when towing in the mountains. I had a close call just east of Field.


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## Darren (Sep 2, 2022)

The Ram handles 12500lbs with ease. Dunno if I'd wanna do it in the mountains though


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## Janger (Sep 2, 2022)

Got a photo of your new truck @Dabbler ?


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## Dabbler (Sep 2, 2022)

Here it is:


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## historicalarms (Sep 2, 2022)

Take it from a trucker of a few years experience...and I have seen more than a few RV's and their contents spread out for 100 yards in ditches....it ain't the ability to pull something... its the ability to control your load/trailer in a panic stop situation that should be the tantamount deciding factor in what to put behind your tow vehicle. 
     You might not realize it but the most common issue at fault when a bumper pull RV takes comand of the tow vehicle is the wind wake from a transport truck hitting the flat square back end of a RV. That wind force pushes the trailer with enough energy to jack knife the whole outfit...and if that trailer ever takes control of your tow vehicle, your just along for the ride wherever that ends up.

     I cringe when I see a man with his family in a F150 or suv happily & obliviously towing his 25 ft bumper pull at 110 km hr down a highway.


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## DPittman (Sep 2, 2022)

historicalarms said:


> it ain't the ability to pull something... its the ability to control your load/trailer in a panic stop situation that should be the tantamount deciding factor in what to put behind your tow vehicle.


Exactly!

In my opinion, most vehicle manufacturers towing limits are MAXIMUM limits under ideal conditions (level, no wind, perfect conditions)  and if you ever think you might tow in less than perfect conditions you better lower that limit.


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## Dabbler (Sep 2, 2022)

@historicalarms @DPittman 100% agree.  I have pulled various trailers since 1977;  (many 10s of thousands of km)  Some towing vehicles are dangerous once the trailer starts to oscillate  - (sorry Ford guys) but the Explorer is the worst I used (for safety).

Most of my towing is flatbed and under 2500 lbs total trailer weight - so this truck will be fine... In fact far better than my '98 GMC 4WD, which seemed safe, with care, up to 4500 lbs towed weight.  That's where my 80% figure comes from.  It *was* the best towing vehicle I've used...  But I don't have access to a RAM 3500, either....  I think this new one will be better.

Yes, I've learned, that the faster you go, the more energy in the oscillations, from experience.


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## Dabbler (Sep 2, 2022)

OK I'll fess up:  I once towed as Toyota Sienna from Kenora to Calgary - with another Sienna.  I took it slow, left lots of toom for decelerations, and avoided traffic situations by... slowing down.  

Yes I know if someone pulled in front suddenly or other emergent situation, I'd be toast.  But not too much unlike a fully loaded transport if someone did the same thing.  

We got to Calgary just fine, with no close calls.


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## YotaBota (Sep 2, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Here it is:


Yotabota approved transportation! LOL 
Good to hear you're both doing better.


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

I've been hanging back on this one wanting to hear what others think before adding my automotive expertise.

I think most of the experiences others have related is both fair and real. Towing a trailer always was, and always will be, a somewhat riskier than normal activity. And there will always be those bad experiences that get burned into our brains.

Once upon a time, trailer towing ratings were indeed a very competitive thing that automakers pushed to the limits. Unfettered by engineering facts, the marketing guys often took liberties unsupported by testing or science. In an unregulated field, there was little the engineering folks could do about it.

I forget the date, but I wanna say someplace shortly after the turn of the century, the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) struck a committee composed of engineering reps from each of the automakers to develop a common standard that could be used to put a leash on the sales & marketing folks as well as deal with the plethora of law suits out there. The result was SAE Standard J2807. I remember how everyone got pissed off when Toyoto broke ranks and was the first to certify their vehicles using the new standard ahead of the agreed effective date.

The SAE standard evaluates braking, acceleration, engine & transmission overheating, high speed cornering, sway control, and weight management. And yes, long steep up and down grades (mountain driving) is part of the standard. The standard was upgraded as new issues arose and I'll bet it is still being revised today.

When you see a trailer towing rating on a modern vehicle, you can rest assured that it isn't a number pulled out of some marketing guru's stinky butt.

That said, trailers come in a very wide variety of shapes, sizes, weight distributions, suspensions, and tires. The automakers have no control over the trailer market. The trailer market has SOME basic participation in standards and even the SAE has a few trailer standards. But trailer companies come and go, are often very small, and pretty much do what they want. This leaves consumers to decide what is reasonable. Some consumers do a good job of that and some don't.

If I can offer any advice here, it would be to err on the side of caution. The industry used to use what we called the 80% trailering rule. Never tow a trailer more than 80% of your vehicles GCWR. Some said 75% was better.

I don't see any reason any more to derate your towing capacity for the normal trailer towed by a modern vehicle. But if you have one of those huge long tail wagging travel trailers, or a tall enclosed trailer with internal wall racking, or a Uhaul Moving trailer (usually loaded to the gills), (edit - or a small flatbed with a giant tall heavy First Mill on it - ) install a hi quality sway control system, avoid loading it beyond the 80% rule, keep the speed down, give those highway semi trucks a wide berth, and use some good old fashioned common sense.

But all in all, I personally believe that it's a better trailering world out there than it once was.


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## Hacker (Sep 3, 2022)

@Susquatch , I agree over the last forty years of towing trailers the vehicle manufactures have come a long way. The problem is usually with the trailer manufactures and how they build and balance their trailers. I bought a used goose neck dump trailer that the back of the box would contact the ground and wouldn't raise all the way up with a full load. When there was nothing in the box and it was raised there was only 50mm of clearance. I figure they took a 14' frame and added a 16' box to it. I raised the trailer and put heavier suspension under it to cure the problem.


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## Chicken lights (Sep 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> install a hi quality sway control system


Why? I sort of get the gist of them, but (to me) it seemed like compensating for having too light of a tow vehicle, I have used one on a family members truck and trailer, but never found the need personally


Susquatch said:


> avoid loading it beyond the 80% rule,


Pppppffffffttttt 
don’t worry about the mule load the damn wagon


Susquatch said:


> keep the speed down


If you can’t do a dollar then your tow vehicle is underpowered for the task at hand


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## 6.5 Fan (Sep 3, 2022)

When i worked on the ferry we saw some very sketchy rigs, one being a chevy 1500 1/2 ton truck pulling a 30 foot camper with a 18ft boat behind the trailer. Dad, mom, 3 kids in the truck. An accident waiting to happen.


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## YotaBota (Sep 3, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> When i worked on the ferry we saw some very sketchy rigs, one being a chevy 1500 1/2 ton truck pulling a 30 foot camper with a 18ft boat behind the trailer. Dad, mom, 3 kids in the truck. An accident waiting to happen.


That's even scary for the prairies, not even legal in BC.


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 3, 2022)

I downsized to a Chevy Colorado in 2019 (from a Ram 2500 Diesel).  I've been doing a lot of towing recently (more to come on that), some travel trailer (~5200lbs), mostly flat deck.  The biggest variable in loads is wind resistance.  Pulling the travel trailer, the sweet spot seems to be 94 km/h (sorry @Chicken lights -- no dollar here), and pulling flat deck, 105 - 110 is achievable.   It simply comes down to what RPM are you comfortable with, and how much $$$ you want to throw out the window.  All the loads have been almost flawless, and I think the key is proper loading and managing tongue weight and distribution.

The truck is rated to tow 7000 lbs but I've set 5500 as my personal max.  Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the capability of this little truck.  I don't think I'd be any happier with a 1/2 ton -- I don't think it would provide any tangible benefit.


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## Darren (Sep 3, 2022)

Since this thread is off the rails already...

I worked for a logging outfit fixing trucks and trailers and hauling logs. Occasionally we would forward logs from 50-100 kms in the bush to the closest highway landing spot.. we would put the last loads of 16' logs on sideways and sometimes heap it up pretty high. Typically on the highway we would be 52000 kg, but in the bush we were well over 100k kgs, on ice, 10' wide roads, loader had to push us to get moving, sometimes 3 trucks and trailers chained together.  So towing a travel trailer to me is less nerve wracking than it might be for some I guess.


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## DPittman (Sep 3, 2022)

Darren said:


> Since this thread is off the rails already...
> 
> I worked for a logging outfit fixing trucks and trailers and hauling logs. Occasionally we would forward logs from 50-100 kms in the bush to the closest highway landing spot.. we would put the last loads of 16' logs on sideways and sometimes heap it up pretty high. Typically on the highway we would be 52000 kg, but in the bush we were well over 100k kgs, on ice, 10' wide roads, loader had to push us to get moving, sometimes 3 trucks and trailers chained together.  So towing a travel trailer to me is less nerve wracking than it might be for some I guess.


Biggest payloads I really ever handled were tandem loads of grain (30000lbs cargo) and sloshing tanks of water and that experience really makes me wonder about the crazy log loads I see on the back logging roads and the speeds they drive at.  I've always wanted to ride along for a day with a logging trucker but have never gad the opportunity.  Your story confirms that if I ever get the opportunity to do so that my ride would likely have me sitting on the edge of my seat and be "entertaning".


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## Darren (Sep 3, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Biggest payloads I really ever handled were tandem loads of grain (30000lbs cargo) and sloshing tanks of water and that experience really makes me wonder about the crazy log loads I see on the back logging roads and the speeds they drive at.  I've always wanted to ride along for a day with a logging trucker but have never gad the opportunity.  Your story confirms that if I ever get the opportunity to do so that my ride would likely have me sitting on the edge of my seat and be "entertaning".


I hauled a few loads of slurry with an 18spd and you'd have to be really aware of grade, up or down,  because the sloshing would make you blow shifts . 

On the bush roads it's pretty crazy in the winter. Glare ice, steep hills, mountains even. Going in empty is way worse than coming out loaded. Miss those days.


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## Tecnico (Sep 3, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't see any reason any more to derate your towing capacity for the normal trailer towed by a modern vehicle. But if you have one of those huge long tail wagging travel trailers, or a tall enclosed trailer with internal wall racking, or a Uhaul Moving trailer (usually loaded to the gills), (edit - or a small flatbed with a giant tall heavy First Mill on it - ) install a hi quality sway control system, avoid loading it beyond the 80% rule, keep the speed down, give those highway semi trucks a wide berth, and use some good old fashioned common sense.
> 
> But all in all, I personally believe that it's a better trailering world out there than it once was.



Nice to have the SAE protecting us from the marketing folks!

Overall weight ratings are important but like @kevin.decelles says the key to a well behaved tow is proper balancing of the trailer C of G and the tongue loads. 

For tongue load I've always used "common sense" but I see 10 - 15% of trailer + load quoted as the correct value and that's probably what I've been using.  So often I see the (swaying) tent trailer/camper etc. hooked to a passenger car with the back of the car almost dragging on the ground because the trunk is loaded and the rest of the heavy stuff got jammed into the front of the trailer and the driver cruises along blissfully unaware.  I think I learned the correct ballpark "feel" early in the game by towing race cars around and very quickly found that where the car sat on the trailer was the difference between a white knuckle drive and a good tow.

The C of G position applies just as well to the First mill on that U-Haul flat bed (was that me @Susquatch?)  When I picked up my machine I had to politely ignore the well meaning advice I was getting about moving it forward so more weight was on the hitch.....

C of G position close to trailer axle position is going to help the side load/sway stability too.  If C of G is between the axles then most of the side load is going to be carried by the axles not the hitch and it won't drive sway. 

If the tongue load is well balanced then it won't unbalance the braking ability either, remember, the front brakes provide the majority of braking capacity of a (4 wheeled) vehicle.  Nothing like locking up the fronts in an emergency because the weight is all on the rears!  In the case of the U-Haul trailer it's rating was high enough to need surge brakes so they would be useful if the trailer isn't swaying around!  FWIW, the truck I rented from them was supposedly a half ton but it must have had the U-Haul special towing package because it was really stiffly sprung.




Chicken lights said:


> Pppppffffffttttt
> don’t worry about the mule load the damn wagon



Hey @Chicken lights is this about right? 







Anyhow, probably most of this isn't anything new to folks here but there's my 2 cents worth.

D

P.S. @Dabbler Good to hear you & yours are mending well.  Nice Toyota!


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

For all those who mentioned it, I agree totally that load distribution is critical. But that isn't something the vehicle or the trailer companies can control. Instead it speaks to the fundamental principal that the weakest link in the whole deal is the nut holding the wheel. 

I've seen it too.


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## Tom O (Sep 3, 2022)

Remember the old ad of towing a line of bolder trailers to show how well they towed and they were flipping all over the place?


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## DPittman (Sep 3, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Remember the old ad of towing a line of bolder trailers to show how well they towed and they were flipping all over the place?


Ok I can't resist...





Awesome idea in many ways, weight more evenly divided on tow vehicle axles and awesome maneuverability but hitch mounted to the rain gutters/rails?!?

I think the idea has merit bit needs a bit of reworking. Hilarious all the same.


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## Dabbler (Sep 3, 2022)

@DPittman I love that camper!  dangerous as any getout, but I still love it....


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## YotaBota (Sep 3, 2022)

@DPittman - I hope it has trailer brakes, some of those older bugs had a hard enough time stopping themselves. lol
@Dabbler - did you have the frame checked out? When I was researching frame swaps for my 2004 Tacoma there was a lot of mentions for the newer bigger trucks as well.


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## Dabbler (Sep 3, 2022)

We had it on the hoist, and checked it out really well.   There's a bit of surface rust, and otherwise everything looked really great.  It is single owner, and heated garage.


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## YotaBota (Sep 3, 2022)

I figured you would have checked it over well but had to ask, sounds good.


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## Tom Kitta (Sep 3, 2022)

The towing equation is dependent on a lot of factors. Its hard to create rules for it unless you want to go way, way over board. 

Even light loads can be scary if they are not well balanced. You can go 80km/h and have an issue towing 30% of tow capacity. 

As to tow ratings they are combination of suspension / engine power. Comparing my old Toyota to my parents old Porsche towing (similar capacity 6500 vs. 7700) the Porsche tows like 100x better lighter loads, reason being is the limit of 7700 is suspension based not engine power based. 

There is also terrain issues that I do not think were mentioned as well as distance of towing. On flat for short distance low resistance load taco can easily tow well above its tow rating. But towing fraction of max over the mountains is an issue.

There is also issue with having or not weight distributing hitch and other equipment, mostly on tow vehicle. 

So many variables. 

All I can say Taco towed around 5000 lbs few times from Ontario without any issues. My parents Porsche towed 3500 to northern tip of Canada doing 10k km in the process without any issues. But once I had a quad and if that sucker was not well balanced that 2500 lbs max load over 80km was scary.


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## historicalarms (Sep 4, 2022)

Smartest thing in that photo is the mule!!


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## Chicken lights (Sep 4, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I'd never pull anything above 80% of the weight of the pulling vehicle, even with trailer brakes.  I found out with a near miss on the Coquhaula highway in a Ford Explorer pulling a 2000 lb load.


I wanted to get home and look at scale tickets before I opened my mouth. With an 8500 pound tow vehicle I’ve (legally) hauled a 23000 pound (gross) and a 25000 pound (gross) load combination (truck, trailer, load). Truck plus trailer empty was 13,500 pounds. So 10-12k loads. (I’ve hauled plenty more loads with that combo but those scale tickets are the only ones I have)

BUT. That was a goose neck trailer. With a one ton pulling it, crew cab long box. NOT in the mountains. That combo would walk the dog on highways and not feel unsafe. 

I would not like to try similar with a bumper pull trailer

I think @Dabbler as usual shows common sense in his actions, most hobbyists/pull an RV twice a year guys have no clue on what they’re doing (in my opinion) 

My tractor weighs 23,000 pounds with no trailer, and I wish the general motoring public understood physics a little more, when they dart in front of trucks that outweigh them significantly


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## Dabbler (Sep 4, 2022)

@Chicken lights  Right on!  I've never owned a 5th wheel truck or trailer, but I'm sure they handle the trailer far better...

On this truck I'm maxing our capacity at about 5000 lbs.  Since it is a very (very) long truck, it might go 500 lbs more, but that's what I consider a hard ceiling for my skills, this truck, and the fact I live in the mountains.

I agree about all of @Susquatch comments about the standards process for towing, and so under ideal conditions with an ideal trailer, this truck could manage 10000 lbs.  I'm just not comfortable with it - perhaps on a non-windy day, flat road, short trip, no traffic, flag car, fallout shelter, etc.


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## Chicken lights (Sep 4, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @Chicken lights  Right on!  I've never owned a 5th wheel truck or trailer, but I'm sure they handle the trailer far better...
> 
> On this truck I'm maxing our capacity at about 5000 lbs.  Since it is a very (very) long truck, it might go 500 lbs more, but that's what I consider a hard ceiling for my skills, this truck, and the fact I live in the mountains.


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## 140mower (Sep 4, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I wanted to get home and look at scale tickets before I opened my mouth. With an 8500 pound tow vehicle I’ve (legally) hauled a 23000 pound (gross) and a 25000 pound (gross) load combination (truck, trailer, load). Truck plus trailer empty was 13,500 pounds. So 10-12k loads. (I’ve hauled plenty more loads with that combo but those scale tickets are the only ones I have)
> 
> BUT. That was a goose neck trailer. With a one ton pulling it, crew cab long box. NOT in the mountains. That combo would walk the dog on highways and not feel unsafe.
> 
> ...


If only they knew the "double the weight, double the stopping distance.... Double the speed, quadruple (4x) the stopping distance..... double both speed and weight and it's eight times the stopping distance" rule.


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