# Finally got a lathe!



## TimDubois (Feb 20, 2022)

Well after trying to find a shop to machine my custom hubs without any luck (a couple members on here did offer their services) I decided to get my own lathe.

Here is my beautiful condition Atlas 12 x 36 lathe!


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## 6.5 Fan (Feb 20, 2022)

Congrats on the new to you lathe.


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## deleted_user (Feb 20, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> Well after trying to find a shop to machine my custom hubs without any luck (a couple members on here did offer their services) I decided to get my own lathe.
> 
> Here is my beautiful condition Atlas 12 x 36 lathe!
> 
> View attachment 21228


Congrats, that is a nice clean looking lathe


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## LenVW (Feb 20, 2022)

Nice to see you got your lathe !!
What area are you in ?
I went to school with Doug Dubois in Zurich.
Any relation ?


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## TimDubois (Feb 20, 2022)

Currently close to Gatineau. Grew up in Prince Edward County in SouthEastern Ontario and spent the last 12 years in Quebec City.

No relation.


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## LenVW (Feb 20, 2022)

Sorry, I guess the Dubois name is common.
We rented an apartment for a week on Rue Couiliard in old Québec City a few years ago.
Careful with those hubs, are the bearings PressFit ?
Tapered roller or sealed ball angular contact ?


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## boilerhouse (Feb 20, 2022)

Now you really have our interest -please post up your hubs as the project evolves.


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## Mcgyver (Feb 20, 2022)

Congrats, for me that day was the start of life long journey of learning and the thrill of making stuff.   I hope you have as much fun with it!


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## ShawnR (Feb 20, 2022)

Nice!


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## TimDubois (Feb 20, 2022)

Bearings for the hub are timken tapered roller. I have them on hand so I can cut to fit. They don't need to be a press fit as the spindle nut will keep them in place. I'll go for snug but I don't want to be heating or hammering to get the races in there. I will probably green loctite them in just to be sure.


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## LenVW (Feb 20, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> Bearings for the hub are timken tapered roller. I have them on hand so I can cut to fit. They don't need to be a press fit as the spindle nut will keep them in place. I'll go for snug but I don't want to be heating or hammering to get the races in there. I will probably green loctite them in just to be sure.


Measure and check again. Light cuts but wat h you do not work harden the seat material.
If you can  . . . keep heat away from precision bearings. 
When you are at the final assembly stage, snug up the lock nuts and then back them off a notch before you put in the cotter pins.


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## YotaBota (Feb 20, 2022)

Good for you, I hope it serves you well.


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## TimDubois (Feb 21, 2022)

No cotter pin for the spindle nut on this build as the spindle is hollow and carries a stub axle through the center. Going to have to figure out another way to keep the spindle nut from backing off. That's a problem for future me haha.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 21, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> No cotter pin for the spindle nut on this build as the spindle is hollow and carries a stub axle through the center. Going to have to figure out another way to keep the spindle nut from backing off. That's a problem for future me haha.


Highway tractors n' trailers use an adjusting nut , a lock plate and an outer nut to lock it all down , a lot like older 4X4  pickup trucks when they had actual serviceable wheel bearings. The nuts are thin , they appear to be punched out of sheet stock and threaded to create an effective , low profile nut.


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## LenVW (Feb 21, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> No cotter pin for the spindle nut on this build as the spindle is hollow and carries a stub axle through the center. Going to have to figure out another way to keep the spindle nut from backing off. That's a problem for future me haha.


Sorry, I should have asked you for a photo of the assembly.


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## Degen (Feb 21, 2022)

Now that you have a lathe, the $$$$ will being to flow as you keep adding tooling (and machines). Wait till your spouse finds out.


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## deleted_user (Feb 21, 2022)

Degen said:


> Now that you have a lathe, the $$$$ will being to flow as you keep adding tooling (and machines). Wait till your spouse finds out.


Good thing he doesn't have a shop partner to battle with on what needs buying next


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## 140mower (Feb 21, 2022)

Degen said:


> Now that you have a lathe, the $$$$ will being to flow as you keep adding tooling (and machines). Wait till your spouse finds out.


That is for certain, but, it's also a very good time to make much of your own tooling at this stage, it really helps you learn your new machine and it's capabilities, and you enhance it each time. An indicator stop would be a good first project.....
Congratulations on your new lathe, let your mind wander a little, and you'll be amazed at what you can do with just a lathe and some time.....


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Highway tractors n' trailers use an adjusting nut , a lock plate and an outer nut to lock it all down , a lot like older 4X4  pickup trucks when they had actual serviceable wheel bearings. The nuts are thin , they appear to be punched out of sheet stock and threaded to create an effective , low profile nut.


The truck rear axle style has tabs on the middle washer, that get bent to lock the outer nut in place, usually. A front axle has a very similar setup but the middle washer locks the inner nut in place, the outside nut is just a jam nut. There’s usually a keyway for the middle washer, cut into the spindle

It must have to do with bearing preload but I don’t actually know why. Maybe @dfloen knows?

Edit: on the older stuff, before unit bearing front axles and such


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 21, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> The truck rear axle style has tabs on the middle washer, that get bent to lock the outer nut in place, usually. A front axle has a very similar setup but the middle washer locks the inner nut in place, the outside nut is just a jam nut. There’s usually a keyway for the middle washer, cut into the spindle
> 
> It must have to do with bearing preload but I don’t actually know why. Maybe @dfloen knows?
> 
> Edit: on the older stuff, before unit bearing front axles and such


It’s to lock in the bearing adjustment , there isn’t any preload on a wheel bearing


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> It’s to lock in the bearing adjustment , there isn’t any preload on a wheel bearing


On a front Dana 44 you torque the inner nut then back it off 1/8” of a turn or so. That isn’t preload?


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

It depends on the application, ive seen specs that allow play in the bearing, and others that call for slight preload. Im a preload kinda guy, even when i was working on heavy trucks.  Not a lot, but some preload.

Unit bearings are so common now that a lot of newer techs have never adjusted a wheel bearing. Unit hubs are definitely preloaded.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 21, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> On a front Dana 44 you torque the inner nut then back it off 1/8” of a turn or so. That isn’t preload?


No , backing the adjusting nut off  allows for a tiny bit of free play and some thermal growth . If you preloaded the bearings they wouldn’t live long. Once you are happy with the adjustment , the lock plate and outer nut go on and gets torqued . There are variations to that configuration , some lock plates come with tabs that are  bent to secure the outer nut , some have holes that line up with a raised nub on the inside nut  , on  those ones the outer nut is torqued and is a jamb nut , securing the hub .


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

Jeff, there are many many applications where they call for a lot of preload and the bearings live a long and happy life.

Tapered roller headstock bearings are always preloaded.

On most Kia's, for example, with insert bearings, the axle nut gets torqued to 180 ft/lbs. The torque it takes to rotate the hub goes up after the nut is torqued. Thats preload.


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## LenVW (Feb 21, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Sorry, I should have asked you for a photo of the assembly.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 21, 2022)

Darren

Just so you know , I've been a mechanic since the early eighties , not a technician as they are called now , we actually fixed and rebuilt stuff.
I just finished up seven years of working on heavy crawler cranes , the trucks & trailers that haul them  and the support vehicles to service and assemble them. 
I was the guy who certified the road vehicles , tractors n' trailers as being safe . I have a couple of Journeyman tickets that I earned from years of sweat.
 The number of times We put preload on any of the wheel bearings on any of that was zero . One trailer had 64 wheels , that's a lot of wheel bearings , to service and adjust , every year or as needed and that was only one , in a good sized fleet of heavy haul gear. 
 Lighter stuff like on an older Dana 44 that actually has adjustable / serviceable wheel bearing were no different , just smaller , some play is acceptable and is the way it was done. Same as a full floating rear axle , no preload , but a teeny bit of play.
I worked on smaller shit too , was never my thing , working on soccer moms poorly maintained miny van. 
Todays light duty junk is all throw away , unit bearings , these younger guys would struggle trying to figure out how to adjust a wheel bearing correctly , I've seen it happen and laughed. 
 I should add , I wouldn't be seen driving or working on a Kia . whatever wheel bearing setup is required for that , has little to do with what the original poster was trying to explain to us.
Yes , on a motorcycle , the neck bearings have some preload , if they didn't the bike would wobble so bad you'd get bucked off.  A neck bearing is not a wheel bearing and see's no loads that even comes close to what a wheel bearing is subjected to. 

No arrogance intended , I just felt you need to know a bit about my background before jumping in to "set me straight" 

It looks like we've successfully wrecked this thread , sorry .


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

All good Jeff, all good.

A little healthy discussion doesn't wreck the thread, in my opinion. He bought the lathe to make hubs.  Hubs have bearings.


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## phaxtris (Feb 21, 2022)

the only reason there is no pre-load specification for wheel bearings is because it is next to impossible to measure, it is said that tapered roller bearings will live longer with end play than with to much pre-load.....so the 'back off x turn' is ensuring there is endplay/no preload......it is fully a compromise


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## SomeGuy (Feb 21, 2022)

Cool stuff  always fun to get a lathe.


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## TimDubois (Feb 21, 2022)

Hahaha this got a little crazy lol.

For a little background I have completely designed these hubs myself. The terra jet comes stock as full time locked 4x4 and one cam actuated disk brake on the transmission. With these new spindles welded onto the knuckle (more of a bell really) I will have selectable 4 wheel drive and hydraulic disk brakes up front so that going into 2x4 doesn't limit me to rear brakes only.

I don't have nearly any of your experience with heavy equipment but for tapered roller bearings on trailers I've always snugged it down with the wheel spinning until the wheel pretty much stopped then backed it off till it spun free. I usually check it again after a few hundred kms and adjust as neccesary.

My theory is thay tight means friction, friction means heat, heat means failure.

I am also not new at all to machining, the first two weeks of our 6 month course is just grinding HSS cutting tools. As I said in my into post part of my job is machining, my trade is the one that fixes everything where a part can't simply be changed (for land equipment).

To satisfy all your curiosity I'll post up some pics of the current hubs and my assembly CAD.


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## TimDubois (Feb 21, 2022)

As promised, here you go.

This is the original hub.







I'm gonna cut off the tube on the "bell'' that carries the outer race of the 6206 bearings. Then I'm gonna weld my new spindle in its place.








The spindle is the part on the far left. In the last pic I omitted the brake rotor and spacers for clarity.


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

I snug them down, spin the hub a few times, back it off and then let the weight of the ratchet set the torque. Never had a problem. A slight preload is far less load on the bearing than it will see in use.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 22, 2022)

Congrats on the new lathe and welcome to the forum, and good luck with your project.


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## Blouin55 (Feb 22, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> Well after trying to find a shop to machine my custom hubs without any luck (a couple members on here did offer their services) I decided to get my own lathe.
> 
> Here is my beautiful condition Atlas 12 x 36 lathe!
> 
> View attachment 21228


Looks in good shape...nice one!.


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## TimDubois (Feb 23, 2022)

Just waiting for my cutting tools to arrive and I can get started. Decided to go with 6061 t-6 for the hubs as they do not need to be welded at all and there's enough meat in the part that I'm not worried. Spindles will be 1018 steel, not ideal for machining but they will weld up solid without pre and post weld heat treating.


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## YYCHM (Feb 23, 2022)

I recognize that camo pattern


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## TimDubois (Feb 23, 2022)

Haha yeah, just got back from the office. Picked up the metal on my way home.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 23, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> Haha yeah, just got back from the office. Picked up the metal on my way home.


Where did you get your metal from?


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## TimDubois (Feb 23, 2022)

Metal Pros in Ottawa. It was horrendously overpriced for what I got but I can't blame them. They have to buy lengths and store it and wait for someone to ask for 2.5 inches then cut it...

I used to order all the metal for my last two shops and the big metal suppliers want nothing to do with us home shops. When I bought the aluminum for my squarestream hunting trailer I had to have it delivered to work because they wouldn't let me unload by hand.

I'm just glad I was able to get it at all.


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## boilerhouse (Feb 23, 2022)

I have used Metal Supermarkets on the east end in the past.  I have had good luck rummaging through the off cut room.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 24, 2022)

I haven't went to Metal pros yet I saw they were selling "lots" of cutoffs but I prefer to rummage as well, the prices are crazy.  I went a couple of times to MSM in Hamilton last fall and surprisingly we got to rummage in the back and I thought the price for cutoffs was cheaper but I didn't get a receipt last time to compare in Ottawa.


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## LenVW (Feb 24, 2022)

Cleaning up the drops from a company’s cutoff saw is the only way to get a deal these days.
Get to know the fabrication shops in your area.

Some larger metal distributors are selling full lengths - ONLY.


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## TimDubois (Feb 24, 2022)

All the distributors I purchased from in the past for work were full length only and minimum $500 or $800 order depending on the company.

I really miss having my coice from the scrap bin at my last posting. The only scrap bin I can rummage through now is a paper shreder haha.


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## TimDubois (Feb 25, 2022)

Well I finally got started turning my pieces. Unfortunately I didn't get that far because my boring bar won't fit in a 1/2" hole and since the move I have no idea where my reduced shank twist drill are. I'll have to pick up a drill tomorrow.

On a positive note the accusize tools seem to work very well on aluminum with the ccgt carbides.


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## Darren (Feb 25, 2022)

a broken drill bit, a bolt, a few spot welds, and a few licks on the bench grinder will get you going.


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## TimDubois (Feb 25, 2022)

I could have ground down an HSS cutter for the smaller boring bar that came with the machine but its Friday night and I have to go to town tomorrow anyway. I've got 4 pieces to bore so it's worth getting a twist drill.


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## Tom O (Feb 25, 2022)

So it begins!


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## 140mower (Feb 25, 2022)

Tom O said:


> So it begins! View attachment 21387


Yup, it's a twist drill today, a reamer tomorrow, who knows what next week..... 'tis a slippery slope ahead.


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## LenVW (Feb 26, 2022)

Does the CHMW have a supplier database that lists suppliers based on geographical area ?
It might be a handy database to maintain for the membership, especially since the recent shortage of inventory that most outlets are currently experiencing in 2022.


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## deleted_user (Feb 26, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Does the CHMW have a supplier database that lists suppliers based on geographical area ?
> It might be a handy database to maintain for the membership, especially since the recent shortage of inventory that most outlets are currently experiencing in 2022.


This would be excellent part of a broader suppliers directory...


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## TimDubois (Feb 28, 2022)

Finally got the first hub turned down. Was slower going than im used to with the colchester I used to have at work but the Atlas performed great.

I got a little chatter on the final pass of the first bearing seat. The carbides don't like taking sub thou cuts apparently. Sorted it out on the second bearing seat by making sure my finish pass and the pass before it were the same DOC.

Everything fits as it should, now I just need to do it again.


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## Darren (Feb 28, 2022)

nice work! 

HSS for tight tolerance finish cuts on aluminium. Much sharper for wisp cuts. Toyota hubs?


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## PeterT (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm very happy with this DCMT insert on aluminum. You can maybe make out swarf curl off to the side. If I recall this is 0.0005" DOC on the piston crown. I could probably do better if my lathe had finer feed. 
I think its a 0.4mm nose radius. Uncoated, extremely sharp, I believe Korloy via Ebay seller. Not expensive. You can also get larger nose radius in the same style & multitude of holders to hold at different orientations.


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## LenVW (Mar 1, 2022)

Nice work Tim !!
You are correct, the carbide inserts do prefer a healthy depth of cut. Sometimes a little varsol helps to reduce friction.
What are the hubs for ?


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## TimDubois (Mar 1, 2022)

The hubs are a custom design of mine for my Terra Jet. It's not really a Terra Jet anymore but it's based off that platform.

The locking hubs are for a K2000 pickup if I remember correctly. I just found a stock locking hub in the overall size I was looking for and designed everything else to fit.


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## LenVW (Mar 1, 2022)

Cool little ATVs.
What is the overall weight ?

We live 15kms from the ARGO production plant in New Hamburg, where they make 6-wheel ATVs. 
Are there several versions of the TerraJets ?


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## TimDubois (Mar 1, 2022)

It weiged in at 880lbs last time I checked but its also not completely done so there's more weight to go on it. It should still be under 1000lbs when it's completed.

The tub is 1/8" 6061 aluminum and the frame 3/16" thick 2 1/2" square tubing.

The terra jets originally came in 3 different styles two were 4x4 of which one had a steel body and the other fiberglass and the last model was a 6x6 beast.


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## LenVW (Mar 1, 2022)

The 6x6 Argos were able to travel in calm water because the tires were floatation style and the fibreglass bodies were sealed  similar to a small boat.
They had a coordinated steering by driving opposite wheels.

What does the TerraJet have for a motor ?


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## Susquatch (Mar 1, 2022)

TimDubois said:


> I got a little chatter on the final pass of the first bearing seat. The carbides don't like taking sub thou cuts apparently. Sorted it out on the second bearing seat





dfloen said:


> HSS for tight tolerance finish cuts on aluminium. Much sharper for wisp cuts. Toyota hubs?



I'm on the same page as Darren. 

Ya, you can make carbide work. But sharp HSS works every time all the time. It's a no brainer. If you have to sneak up on a dimension, why take chances? Just use what you know for sure will work.


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## TimDubois (Mar 1, 2022)

LenVW said:


> The 6x6 Argos were able to travel in calm water because the tires were floatation style and the fibreglass bodies were sealed  similar to a small boat.
> They had a coordinated steering by driving opposite wheels.
> 
> What does the TerraJet have for a motor ?



My Terra Jet has a 16Hp Vanguard V twin at the moment.


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## LenVW (Mar 1, 2022)

I see the Briggs & Stratton “Vanguard“ motors are in the Argos as well.
Argos have been around for decades.

When you are machining the hubs . . . you can be successful with HSS or Carbide.
Just keep in mind that HSS may require grinding to maintain a sharp edge. 
The carbide will hog out much more and at higher SFPM without exhibiting any wear. The only thing to watch out for is subjecting the carbide insert to shock loads. 
Make sure the tool and the workpiece are securely supported and reduce any chatter that may occur.
Take your time and get comfortable with your equipment and tooling.
Use the NET to research recommendations for specific bearing setups and preloads.
Questions are inexpensive, mistakes cost you money.


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## PeterT (Mar 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'm on the same page as Darren.
> Ya, you can make carbide work. But sharp HSS works every time all the time. It's a no brainer. If you have to sneak up on a dimension, why take chances? Just use what you know for sure will work.


I shared a real example in post #53 cutting aluminum. I dialed in half a thou on the cross slide & it took exactly that off, finish was excellent. No drama, no making it work. I deliberately found a picture that had a whisp of swarf on the tool. I've done the same on the compound at an angle (shallower DOC). It's just as happy taking much higher DOC. This is the sharpest nose in my arsenal, finish only improves with larger radii but has other cons, so kind of job dependent. I should have mentioned I use the same style/uncoated CCMT on turning & boring tools with same results.

There are so many styles & specs & variants of inserts, I find it rather perplexing to put them all in a common bucket named carbide & suggest they are shades of problematic for hobbyists. Here is a small sample from a catalog. Note the DOC vs feed rate window variation. All carbides, but meant for slightly different purposes. Now the flip side to that is geometry is geometry so one would think HSS grind could benefit from that, yet nobody has said much about that. So maybe if you chose the wrong insert for the application or a bad one that would explain your results &  bias. I dunno. Post us a picture of what you tried & maybe we can see something. A lot of people get feed rate confused with DOC. My understanding is those graphs are meant to provide sweet spot ranges to encompass multiple factors of interest; efficiency, chip form, tool load.... factors that would be of interest to CNC production shops. But it doesn't mean the world blows up if you take a finer cut or slower feed. Now if you run carbide rough & micro frac the edge or  chip it, or the lathe has some problematic wear, or bought a mystery brand with incorrect geometry or coating so thick it rounds the edge... ya all bets off. But one could say that about anything including HSS.

I probably wont convince you, nor is that my intent. We are free to run whatever makes us happy. But I also don't think its accurate to generalize like HSS is some miracle cure. Both will work in capable hands. Both will not work when not implemented correctly. Don't take my word for it. Lots of pictures on the net to judge for ones self.


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## eotrfish (Mar 1, 2022)

PeterT said:


> But I also don't think its accurate to generalize like HSS is some miracle cure. Both will work in capable hands. Both will not work when not implemented correctly.


+1

I routinely take .0005 DOC using TCGT and VCGT inserts on 6061 Al, 642 Bronze, 360 Brass, 752 NS, TufMet T3 and Ampco 45.  Coolant helps preserve the edges and get a 16RMS finish.  YMMV


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## Susquatch (Mar 2, 2022)

@PeterT & @eotrfish 


I think it is good to have different opinions on here. 

I guess we float in different boats. I don't have a huge selection of carbide to choose from, and I'm not going to a catalog to order a special insert and tool holder for whatever work I'm doing. Not all of us are as skilled as you either. 

Of course you are right Peter, I over generalized and that wasn't fair. 

My experience (obviously different from some), drives my choices and my advice to others. One too many times I tried to creep in on a dimension with carbide and ruined the part. The advice I got at the time was to use hss unstead. That worked for me. Therefore I only use carbide for rough cuts or when I can make a bigger final cut. But I routinely reach for hss when I need to creep in on a dimension. That advice, and my results now drives my advice to others. It probably isn't universally correct. 

Of course, dull or worn bits change everything. HSS must be sharpened as it dulls and carbide inserts have to be replaced. 

Maybe when my ears dry out I'll change that view. 

While we are on the subject, perhaps I could seek your opinions on two related questions that come to my mind since I really am open to experimenting and new points of view. 

For most common steels, stainless, cast iron, & aluminiums, 

1. What inserts do you most often reach for when you want to creep in on a dimension? In other words, what actually sits on your shelf waiting for that assignment? 

2. Same question when you need to make a nasty interrupted cut?


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## eotrfish (Mar 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> For most common steels, stainless, cast iron, & aluminiums,
> 
> 1. What inserts do you most often reach for when you want to creep in on a dimension? In other words, what actually sits on your shelf waiting for that assignment?



When I need to creep in on a dimension +/- 0.0001" I'll use this hone.  Abrasives can be your friend.






The male slide on these ferrule sets must end up at nominal dimension +0.0000 / -.0001 for a suction fit.  I turn them to +.001 then hone.  Honing is the preferred method of achieving this tolerance.  There are other ways to do it but they all involve abrasive material removal.


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## PeterT (Mar 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> One too many times I tried to creep in on a dimension with carbide and ruined the part. The advice I got at the time was to use hss unstead. That worked for me. Therefore I only use carbide for rough cuts or when I can make a bigger final cut. But I routinely reach for hss when I need to creep in on a dimension. That advice, and my results now drives my advice to others. It probably isn't universally correct.



Well if you want to open up yet another can of worms, many knowledgeable machinists will argue that creeping up is bad practice regardless of cutting tool selection & this even dates back to early HSS days.  Yet many of us do it. Probably more of a conservative human nature thing which seems right, but not necessarily grounded in best practice. For example (make belief BS numbers):

DOC sequence A: 15+15+5*+5 (where * is final measurement point dictating last DOC setting which might yield 4 or 6 final set but anyways intentionally close to prior 5. And 5 represents a known finishing sweet spot for the tool) vs DOC sequence B: 20+15+3*+1*+1+... (creeping up mode).
Supposedly A is better than B because you are as much as possible, replicating (normalizing) the preceding pass conditions as opposed to introducing new variables which are DOC dependent (chip load, tooling assembly load & of course many other variables through the chain). We can get away with sequence B creep-up in many alloys, but difficulties arise with other common alloys which work harden, or sticky ductile materials like coppers which deform. I'm pretty sure Stefan.G has an informative video clip on this very subject.

And as mentioned above, regardless of the path, you eventually arrive at the destination where the lathe has basically done its job within its practical limits. Further surface finish & dimensional control then enters the regime of grinding, lapping, honing if that's what the job takes.


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## Susquatch (Mar 2, 2022)

Ya, pretty much all true. I get your point. 

But the human nature guy likes to creep up on a dimension and this human nature guy likes HSS. 

Btw, I was not setting a trap asking about your favorite carbide bits. I am genuinely curious and would like to try them.


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## PeterT (Mar 2, 2022)

eotrfish said:


> When I need to creep in on a dimension +/- 0.0001" I'll use this hone.  Abrasives can be your friend.
> 
> View attachment 21542



Oooh, maybe we can arrange to meet one so I can take some measurements off that to replicate. Never saw that model before. I've collected a few pictures of similar gadgets (shop made Dalapena equivalents?). But my issue is the abrasive inserts. Some guys have adopted fragments of common abrasive sticks. I've bought some rectangular candidates from Asian tool supplier with good selection of fine grits, but even cutting them off to length with diamond (Dremel) wheel has not been fun. Just as we speak I'm having to re-size lengths of 3mm O1 drill rod. I've made so many clamp / clamshell / ID lapping gadgets I've lost count. Some work better than others. Its a pita process but necessary to fit reamed holes with the correct fit.

Does this Sunnen model still exist or a piece of legacy tooling yu acquired?


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## eotrfish (Mar 2, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Does this Sunnen model still exist or a piece of legacy tooling yu acquired?



Peter

I'm pretty sure that this hone still exists.  The stones and guide shoes are still shown on the Sunnen website but I can't find the link to the actual hone.  I bought some stones for it a couple of years ago.  

No problem meeting and measuring to replicate the tool.

Some rodmakers have "designed" a poor boy version of this which uses the Sunnen guide shoe and stones. This might be the way to go.  I have a couple spare micrometer heads that you can have if you decide to go that way.  See below..









						Ferrule Hone
					





					store.grayhacklerods.net


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## deleted_user (Mar 2, 2022)

eotrfish said:


> Peter
> 
> I'm pretty sure that this hone still exists.  The stones and guide shoes are still shown on the Sunnen website but I can't find the link to the actual hone.  I bought some stones for it a couple of years ago.
> 
> ...


Thanks for pointing out another tool I need to covet


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## PeterT (Mar 2, 2022)

eotrfish said:


> Some rodmakers have "designed" a poor boy version of this which uses the Sunnen guide shoe and stones. This might be the way to go.  I have a couple spare micrometer heads that you can have if you decide to go that way.  See below..



VERY interesting thanks for link. The mic head would certainly provide some dimensional feedback I'm missing with my methods. 

This is a shop based tool I suppose somewhat similar in principle, wider range of sizes




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						Series: External Hone « Tom's Maker Site
					





					thebloughs.net
				




I'm finding that lapping (as in with compound) to be a rather messy & time consuming process. It has it's place but I think for the very last stage. Even then I don't look forward to it. Don't laugh too hard but this is my latest attempt. I discovered after measuring a range of my abrasive papers they have surprisingly consistent thickness in the 600-1200 range with the same brand Mirka or whatever I have ~0.007". So I machined some blocks with an annular offset allowance around the target finished shaft size. I trap the paper in the bloc & spin up the stock under power, traverse the block up & down the length. As paper wears, move it over slightly yields brand new abrasive. Its basically dry abrasion so quick to wipe off & mic check progress. The idea is that when the 2 surfaces bottom out I'm very close to size. Well... thast the idea. It still a by-feel process unfortunately. What it does a good job of is de-ovalizing the drill rod stock to circular which is inevitably 0.0005" eccentric & slightly oversize as new. But drilling & reaming a straight hole on the parting line of backer block line (with shim sandwiched) isn't a slam dunk & often I don't have the exact drill size. So I'm just about to try the same technique with a similar pre-sized Vee slot.


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## Tom O (Mar 2, 2022)

Here’s another for a external hone.





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						Series: External Hone « Tom's Maker Site
					





					thebloughs.net


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## PeterT (Mar 26, 2022)

My latest in a series of abrasive 'trueing' gadgets in preparation for lapping. This one didn't take long to make & seems to have some promise. I've had to make quite a few part of O1 tool steel lately because they have machined features & then need to be hardened. But they all have to be pretty precise sliding fits in some kind of reamed hole. I came to realize early that O1 stock arrives oversize its nominal size by 0.0005 - 0.001". That is as advertised. No problem so far, actually desirable if you want to finish it down a bit. But the other issue is the stock is inevitably non-circular (elliptical shaped). So they could measure as much as 0.0015" different in one axis than another. That difference amount you can actually feel as an odd fit in a circular hole. Unfortunately just spinning the stock in a lathe against a flat stick stone or abrasive does not correct geometry, trueing an ellipse into a circle. The abrasive tool basically just goes along for the ride. Lapping does accomplish this task but can be a long messy process. A couple thou is actually a lot & typically requires progressive abrasives & wearing out laps along the way, so preferable to leave that for the very last step

I've made a few gadgets with varying degrees of success. This one seems to be working better than the others. Still room for improvement but I feel comfortable getting the stock within 2-3 tenths quite consistently which then makes lapping so much easier. I have some round abrasive stone sticks arriving from AliExpressLand but I realized I had the raw ingredients in form of inexpensive Dremel type grinding cylinders. I made up some holders from aluminum, drilled holes for (in this case) three 6mm OD stones. They are just epoxied into place for the tester. I believe they are 240 grit which is actually not bad for this task. Most of the adjustable clamp style honing tools I see have abrasive on one side & an inert Vee bar on the other. I'm not actually sure if that's more for alignment guidance because of the hinge joint but I decided to put 3 stones against the OD tangent at 120-deg apart for more cutting action & more or less equalized. The clamping bolt system looks crude but actually once its finger tightened you can actually feel it cutting vs gliding so not unlike lapping I suppose. This tester can do from 3-8mm dia stock. Probably it would be best to preserve a tool for specific stock diameter so it wears the same.


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## PeterT (Mar 26, 2022)

My original lapping tool finished off the last 2 tenths. I'm going to improve this tool too.


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