# Radon gas mitigation in our home.



## John Conroy (Jan 31, 2022)

We have lived in the same house since 1992, raised our kids here and plan to stay until they carry us out. Recently a neighbor (lifetime non-smoker) was diagnosed with lung cancer and biopsy results showed the kind of lung cell damage that is caused by Radon gas. I had heard of Radon before but I never paid much attention to the topic and there doesn't seem to be much common discussion of the issue. Radon is the leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers! After our neighbor was diagnosed, they did a Radon level test in the house and found it to be over 5 times the recommended maximum level. Info regarding units of measure and such here:





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						Guide for Radon Measurements in Residential Dwellings (Homes) - Canada.ca
					

Guide for Radon Measurements in Residential Dwellings (Homes)




					www.canada.ca
				




We have since done one of the mail in Radon tests in out home and the results showed levels at 275 Bq/m3 over a 3 month average from September to December. Since the recommended max level is 200 I wanted to do something about this. We had a local Radon mitigation company come out and do an evaluation and give us a quote for about $3000 to install a mitigation system. I have done quite a bit research on Radon mitigation since and decided to attempt to install my own system. It's pretty simple really. The gas enters the dwelling from the soil under the building and the object is to install a fan and vent system to direct the gas from under the slab to outside. We were fortunate that our house has a sump pump pit hear the center of our basement slab that was installed by building code when the house was built in 1985. There is a 6" layer of crushed gravel under the slab that allows air to circulate. Being the skeptic that I am I wanted to double check the Radon level but not wait another 3 months so I purchased a digital Radon detector made by Air Things. It can provide a gas level after about 6 hours and will provide short term ( 1 day) and long term ( up to 7 days) averages as well as history up to 1 year.






						AIRTHINGS Corentium Home , Radon Gas Detector, Canadian Version in Bq/m : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

AIRTHINGS Corentium Home , Radon Gas Detector, Canadian Version in Bq/m : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca
				




I measure the levels in 3 different areas of the house over a period of 3 weeks and found that they were actually worse than what the mail in report showed. That makes sense to me because during September and October there were quite a few days where we had windows open in the house allowing ventilation of the gas. No windows open here in January.





My plan was to buy a fan kit of sufficient size based on the size of the slab (1575 sq feet) and type of soil under it. I chose to buy a fan from Amazon made by a company called RadonAway and using their sizing information picked the RP145 model which is one of the most common ones. ($230)






						RadonAway 23030-1 RP145 Radon Mitigation Fan, 4-Inch : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

RadonAway 23030-1 RP145 Radon Mitigation Fan, 4-Inch : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca
				




To learn about the proper installation type I used a guide published by  the Standards Council of Canada to make sure my installation is up to code. You can download it here.





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						Radon mitigation options for existing low-rise residential buildings .: P29-149-012-2017E-PDF - Government of Canada Publications - Canada.ca
					

Publication information / bibliographic Record.




					publications.gc.ca
				




Since we live in a cold climate area I chose to mount the fan indoors and to use a vent system that exits the side of the house. Outdoor fans and through the roof style vents are commonly used where the climate is milder. I chose to use  4" schedule 40 ABS pipe and fitting as it is much cheaper and easier to get than 4" PVC. I found that Lowes price on the pipe was about 30% lower than Home Depot for some reason. I needed three 12' pieces of 4" pipe, as well as a bunch of fittings that totaled just over $300. 

I used the existing plywood cover from the 2' X 2' sump pit and added another layer of G1S plywood on top of it to add stiffness and sealed it to the opening with foam tape. Our house is on high ground so there has never been a pump or any water in the pit but I want to be able to remove the cover if need in the future so it is fastened and sealed down with 12 screws. Since the OD of the 4" pipe is 4.5" I used a 4.75" hole saw to make the opening in the plywood cover. I machined a flange for the pipe to fit through from a 2" thick piece of 6.75" round steel and bolted that to the cover and sealed it with silicone.

























The finished installation.





Radon level after 6 hours of operation.





Radon level after 48 hours of operation.





My only regret is I didn't do this years ago. Total for materials and the detector about $750.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 31, 2022)

Not many people even check for Radon gas, good looking fan system you built. Likely a lot less than 3 grand.


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## Tom O (Jan 31, 2022)

Wow that is quite the change in readings. It doesn’t look like it’s hard to install either and cheap.


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## John Conroy (Jan 31, 2022)

It was not difficult, my son and I did the piping installation in about 4 hours. It took about the same amount of time to make the pit cover and flange. I'm going to lend the detector to my son and some other friends so they can check their houses.


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## Six O Two (Jan 31, 2022)

This is great and gives me lots of ideas, thank you. Our home is in an area which is notoriously bad geographically for radon gas. I did do a mail-in test a few years ago from opposite ends of our basement, and one room was below the 200 threshold, and one was slightly above, so I chose not to do anything at the time. The consultant I was speaking with had offered to sell me a real-time detector, but it was quite a bit more than the Airthings linked above. I'm going to order one of those right away.


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## Janger (Jan 31, 2022)

Great Post John. Wow.


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> We have lived in the same house since 1992, raised our kids here and plan to stay until they carry us out. Recently a neighbor (lifetime non-smoker) was diagnosed with lung cancer and biopsy results showed the kind of lung cell damage that is caused by Radon gas. I had heard of Radon before but I never paid much attention to the topic and there doesn't seem to be much common discussion of the issue. Radon is the leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers! After our neighbor was diagnosed, they did a Radon level test in the house and found it to be over 5 times the recommended maximum level. Info regarding units of measure and such here:


John thank you for raising radon awareness with your post. It may be off topic but it should be a discussion we have everywhere in Canada.

My career was spend predominantly in working in building science, mechanical design, occupational hygiene, and heavily involved identifying and mitigating indoor environmental risks. At one time I was the Director of Programs and Technical Services for a Natural resources' Canada Service Organization that was owned by the Ontario homebuilders' Association. Each province at the time had one organization that worked with very large "production homebuilders to get them to voluntarily improve the durability, energy efficiency, and health and safety of the housing that they developed.

As an organization we were a also major stakeholder in Natural Resources Canada's Energy Efficiency in Housing programs. We provided subject matter expertise in building science, energy efficiency, best practices in construction input to the feds, while also acting as a liaison between the feds and the provinces homebuilding community. We were also prime stakeholders in the provincial utility companies' demand management programs and in provincial building code consultations.

Our organization basically helped to create the R2000 Homes Standard, the Energuide For Houses Ratings system,  The EnergyStar for New Homes standard, and a voluntary program called "Radon Ready" 

The goal of all these programs is to affect voluntary change by demonstrating the benefits of the program to builders and potential homebuyers. With a radon ready home houses constructed in that program would seal the edges of the foundation slab, and install a passive pipe that penetrated vertically up and thru the roof with as little deviation from vertical as possible. Those builders who made this small investment received training, marketing assistance and were supposed to benefit from a national advertising campaign. The ultimate goal was to attempt to have every home outfitted with a system that was inexpensive yet very efficient that could be upgraded with the addition of a fan for which wiring had also been preinstalled if testing revealed passive mitigation was insufficient. 

One a side note, that same department actually helped to create heat recovery ventilators in response to high radon levels in Saskatchewan homes in the 1980s. The province still has one of the highest levels of lung cancer in the nation. Despite having a massive uptake of heat recovery ventilators, they are not reaching everyone. 

The radon ready program failed to sway builders, or win over consumers, just like EnergyStar, and Energuide for New Homes because the feds reneged on their commitment to actually promote theses programs to new homebuyers. I wont say which party did the most damage to the feds credibility, but it was a western one.

In the end, we affected change like we eventually always have to do. We mandated changes thru the building codes and local construction ordinances. Radon mitigation is ultimately being codified slowly but surely.  But how many people will have died in the interim? antimaskers will say so what.


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## PeterT (Jan 31, 2022)

A few years back one of the engineers did his 'safety moment' on radon. There was a period after that where people were comparing notes about variation among testers & test duration. It's naturally occurring but I recall there were factors around why the levels varied & accumulate (seasonally or ventilation related?). They even had one of the companies come in on a lunch hour & give a talk but I missed it. 


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/radon-test-kits-not-effective-short-term-university-research-calgary-1.5384088
		


And then there is 'unnaturally' occurring radiation. Fortunately, our border has completely insulated us from any airborne migration originating from the south - clearly evidenced by how the red shade just ends as you approach the line of frozen hinterland of Kanukistan.


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

PeterT said:


> A few years back one of the engineers did his 'safety moment' on radon. There was a period after that where people were comparing notes about variation among testers & test duration. It's naturally occurring but I recall there were factors around why the levels varied & accumulate (seasonally or ventilation related?). They even had one of the companies come in on a lunch hour & give a talk but I missed it.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/radon-test-kits-not-effective-short-term-university-research-calgary-1.5384088
> ...


Sadly, unlike the USA, Canadian govts always claim they could never afford to test nationally for radon and produce maps like the USA has. Radon is so widely varied across Canada. In some regions of the province the levels are huge, yet just a few kilometers away the levels are low.

Radon levels vary by season due to what is called stack effect. when there is a major difference between the indoor and outdoor temperatures the difference in temps causes pressure differentials that drive air leakages thru the leaky building envelope. In the shoulder months of the spring and fall, we don't operate hvac equipment as often, the temperature differential is low therefore there are no forces to drive ventilation. Pollutants including radon builds up, often to dangerous levels.

New homes are being made even tighter so they must have controlled mechanical ventilation and radon mitigation built in.

When I lived in SK our home had a central areas of full basement surrounded by crawlspaces. The crawl spaces had bare dirt foundation floor, held back by cinderblock kneewalls. This design is rather typical of many homes built in the early 1900s in the province. Not even the leaky old homes provided enough ventilation resulting in high rates on lung cancer. 

I could expound on this subject for hours, and I used to be paid to.


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## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

And here I thought asbestos clad houses and lead based paint on cribs were the only skeletons in my closet.  Radon eh?


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> And here I thought asbestos clad houses and lead based paint on cribs were the only skeletons in my closet.  Radon eh?


Oh Craig, dont forget the Federal govts' early insulation programs stemming from the 1970s oil crisis. The feds paid to have vermiculite insulation dumped in heaps in attics, and poured into wall cavities. Later testing revealed that the major mine supplying the vermiculite was contaminated with asbestos veins all thru the vermiculite.

This was only discovered in the late 1990s or early 2000s IIRC. The feds then had to conduct major testing depressurizing homes with blower doors to see if any asbestos was able to enter the living spaces. Most of this testing happened in Canada's lousy Canadian Forces Housing stocks because these facilities were all insulated during the 1970s insulation program.

During these inspections we discovered a myriad of issues and abuses. In many cases unscrupulous contractors merely carried up bags of insulation and laid them around the attic space leaving gaping holes in the coverage. They took the money and ran because at the time the feds had zero oversight or inspection protocols.


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## Johnwa (Jan 31, 2022)

We participated in a UofC radon study.  We had two different tests, one in the basement and one on the main floor.  Our values were well below the recommended limit.


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

Johnwa said:


> We participated in a UofC radon study.  We had two different tests, one in the basement and one on the main floor.  Our values were well below the recommended limit.


that's good. calgary housing stocks are better build in the foundation and substantially newer on average. 

SK has more residual uranium deposits in the soil that came from the athabasca basin but alberta has elevated levels too.


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

Okay, last comment. One that puts the radon risk into glaring perspective.

A Cross-Canada survey conducted by Health Canada between 2009 and 2013 of radon concentrations in Canadian homes. The survey found that 25.2% of homes had radon concentrations equal to or greater than the recommended WHO remediation action level of 100 Bq/m³ and 8.2% had radon concentrations equal to or greater than the recommended Health Canada remediation action level of 200 Bq/m³. 

There is a 25% chance your house is trying to kill you by a method other than slipping in the tub or falling down the stairs. I know several people who died of lung cancer. It is horrible way to die.

What does this mean for you? 

A subsequent 2014 study concluded that more than 2 times as many lung cancer deaths could be prevented each year in Ontario alone if all homes with radon levels above 100 Bq/m³ were remediated instead of only remediating homes with concentrations above 200 Bq/m³.

You should have your home tested. The timing of the testing should be in the shoulder months of the spring and fall when natural ventilation levels are at their lowest. If your home exceeds 100 Bq/m³  you should look into mitigation with either a heat recovery ventilator, a sub-slab ventilation system, or perhaps both depending on your test levels.

Oh and that 25% of homes is an average. Some areas are very low, and some very high. In Ontario three regions averaged over 40% of the homes testing above 100 Bq/m³.

Windsor-Essex County (44.1%); Leeds, Grenville and Lanark District (41.7%); and Chatham-Kent (39.8%).


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## Janger (Jan 31, 2022)

Radon maps of canada, lots of them, 

radon map canada

And this one of Calgary:



			https://radonkit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Radon_study_map_calgary-alberta.jpg


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## deleted_user (Jan 31, 2022)

Janger said:


> Radon maps of canada, lots of them,
> 
> radon map canada
> 
> ...



These maps do not typically represent the levels of radon in homes but rather the presence of decaying uranium in the soils that releases isotopes such as radon.  Housing typology and construction type and quality also play a huge role in whether a home has radon infiltration and accummulation.

So please do not look at a map alone and think "great, the levels in my area are low therefore my risks are low." Do look at a map that shows higher levels of uranium and it's isotopes in the soil and think "damn I may be at risk, I need a radon test"

All of these maps have been produced within the last 15 years or so based on rushed testing as well. I have little faith in their reliability compared to simple radon testing


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## Janger (Feb 1, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> These maps do not typically represent the levels of radon in homes but rather the presence of decaying uranium in the soils that releases isotopes such as radon.  Housing typology and construction type and quality also play a huge role in whether a home has radon infiltration and accummulation.
> 
> So please do not look at a map alone and think "great, the levels in my area are low therefore my risks are low." Do look at a map that shows higher levels of uranium and it's isotopes in the soil and think "damn I may be at risk, I need a radon test"
> 
> All of these maps have been produced within the last 15 years or so based on rushed testing as well. I have little faith in their reliability compared to simple radon testing


Good clarification John.


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## Janger (Feb 1, 2022)

My house has one of those sump pumps in the buckets and I have heard it run so IF I have a problem then I can't install the pipe there like John C. did. How far away from the sump pump should the venting hole be drilled? In my furnace room you could put it about 6 feet away. If it is too close to the sump I would think the fan would just draw all the air from the holes in the sump pump bucket? Least path of resistance? That would not really work to pull any radon out?


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## John Conroy (Feb 1, 2022)

You can buy a ready made sump pit cover or make one that allows both the pump and the radon suction pipe to be in the same pit. This one wouldn't fit my sump pit as mine is square but it will illustrate what I mean.






						The Original Radon/Sump Dome (Model: SMR16101-CV) : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

The Original Radon/Sump Dome (Model: SMR16101-CV) : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca


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## deleted_user (Feb 1, 2022)

Janger said:


> My house has one of those sump pumps in the buckets and I have heard it run so IF I have a problem then I can't install the pipe there like John C. did. How far away from the sump pump should the venting hole be drilled? In my furnace room you could put it about 6 feet away. If it is too close to the sump I would think the fan would just draw all the air from the holes in the sump pump bucket? Least path of resistance? That would not really work to pull any radon out?



Foundation floor slabs are laid on a gravel drainage bed and capillary break... The standards for gravel used in drainage fields is written to assure that the aggregate size is such that when compacted the openings between the gravel will be large enough to provide a capillary break. This prevents water from rising to touch the floor slab via capillary action.

This provides another benefit. The entire sub-slab area is one connected air space. Think of it as a very very short room, albeit a crowded and stuffy one.

Many such sub slab areas also have a sump pit, It will not interfere with radon mitigation piping. The water entering the sump pit travels along the lowest level of the gravel field. The sump pit is also a radon accumulation point and potential point to allow both radon and water vapour access into the home.

You could very well use the sump pit as a site to add radon mitigation piping however, it is not best practice because sump pits are almost never sited so that you can run a vertical vent pipe thru the home.

As well, radon mitigation pipes need a little help, since some are passive and work entirely due to what is known as stack effect. Due to temperature differentials between the outside and inside of the home and between the basement and upper floors there is almost always a pressure driving air movement upwards in a home. In a radon mitigation system that flow is from the sub-slab area and out thru the room.

Gravel impedes airflow though, so the best system is to install a tee just below the slab, and perforated pipe in both directions to increase the radon collection area and make air movement to the exterior of the home easier.

Most of my work was with new homebuilders, so we could install pipe during construction prior to pouring the slab. We usually recommended that one end of the pipe penetrate the side of the sump pit, and the other end extend as far as possible in the other direction. The tee location was carefully planned from the very start of the design process so that it would be vertical without any bends. 

in retrofit situations you want to be able to break a narrow trench through the slab as long as you can. In many homes that means just a few feet... but in some it could be 20 feet. It is an easy task to break the slab with a 5 pound sledge hammer, and then dig out gravel to make room for perforated pipe. You want to be able to cover the pipe with at least 2 inches of concrete. 

you need to ensure that your patch will provide good adhesion to the old concrete. Little cracks can allow radon to penetrate into the basement


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## deleted_user (Feb 1, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> You can buy a ready made sump pit cover or make one that allows both the pump and the radon suction pipe to be in the same pit. This one wouldn't fit my sump pit as mine is square but it will illustrate what I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True. Most builders use a simple plywood cut out. It is stiff and seals well. However, the sum pit alone is not a sufficient radon catchment area... it is best to also extend perforated pipe into the gravel bed to provide as much coverage as is reasonable in the individual case.


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## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Windsor-Essex County (44.1%); Leeds, Grenville and Lanark District (41.7%); and Chatham-Kent (39.8%).



Oh oh....... 

Nothing in my first two homes in Windsor-Essex. Ventilator in my third. 

Ventilator in my 4th here in Chatham Kent. 

Prolly too late to change much at my age but I'll take a look at my ventilator spring & fall schedule anyway.


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## John Conroy (Feb 2, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> True. Most builders use a simple plywood cut out. It is stiff and seals well. However, the sum pit alone is not a sufficient radon catchment area... it is best to also extend perforated pipe into the gravel bed to provide as much coverage as is reasonable in the individual case.


From the research I've done it appears that most of the mitigation retrofits in older homes, even the ones done by professional mitigation companies, only involve piercing a hole in the basement slab and using a chipping bar or other narrow digging tool and a shop vacuum to remove about 10 gallons of material to form a small pit under the slab. At that point they just place a short length of pipe below the slab, seal it in and connect the fan and related vent pipe. The document I read from National Standards Canada (link in my original post) says venting out the side of the house is recommended in cold  climate areas to prevent heavy snow accumulation and ice from blocking the vent. They provide a list of clearance specifications regarding the distance required between the radon vent outlet and things like opening windows, furnace air inlets etc. My sump pit is a cube shape 2 feet in each dimension so about 60 US gallons in volume and I just extended my pipe 6 inches below the slab and sealed it up. I have since tested radon levels in all areas of the basement and the rest of the house and show levels less than 5 bq/cubic meter.

 My son works in the HVAC industry and tells me that most new home builders in the Edmonton area don't even install radon mitigation rough in piping below the slab in new homes. His company also has a branch in Kelowna and all the new homes they install hvac into there, also get a radon mitigation rough-in so there is passive mitigation piping done through the roof. The buyer can then do radon testing after moving in and if needed they can install a fan and upgrade the system to an active one.

It appears that it's up to each individual builder to decide whether a radon mitigation rough in is done when new homes are built. I find it pretty disturbing that radon mitigation rough-ins are not done on all new homes. If the material below the slab in not porous to allow airflow it could be very difficult to achieve an efficient mitigation with a retrofit.


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## deleted_user (Feb 2, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> From the research I've done it appears that most of the mitigation retrofits in older homes, even the ones done by professional mitigation companies, only involve piercing a hole in the basement slab and using a chipping bar or other narrow digging tool and a shop vacuum to remove about 10 gallons of material to form a small pit under the slab. At that point they just place a short length of pipe below the slab, seal it in and connect the fan and related vent pipe. The document I read from National Standards Canada (link in my original post) says venting out the side of the house is recommended in cold  climate areas to prevent heavy snow accumulation and ice from blocking the vent. They provide a list of clearance specifications regarding the distance required between the radon vent outlet and things like opening windows, furnace air inlets etc. My sump pit is a cube shape 2 feet in each dimension so about 60 US gallons in volume and I just extended my pipe 6 inches below the slab and sealed it up. I have since tested radon levels in all areas of the basement and the rest of the house and show levels less than 5 bq/cubic meter.
> 
> My son works in the HVAC industry and tells me that most new home builders in the Edmonton area don't even install radon mitigation rough in piping below the slab in new homes. His company also has a branch in Kelowna and all the new homes they install hvac into there, also get a radon mitigation rough-in so there is passive mitigation piping done through the roof. The buyer can then do radon testing after moving in and if needed they can install a fan and upgrade the system to an active one.
> 
> I find it pretty disturbing that radon mitigation rough-ins are not done on all new homes. If the material below the slab in not porous to allow airflow it could be very difficult to achieve an efficient mitigation.


Hi John,

I was one of the technical experts and stakeholders who contributed to radon mitigation standards for Natural Resources Canada. There are many competing interests involved in such a process. Often builder's representatives lobby to do the least possible, and due to the lack of their own unbiased representation means that renovation contractors lack a voice in such efforts. The opposite is true as well, renovation contractors organizations dont get to hear the debate and the input into the standards and how much the best practice recommendations get watered down.

It is true, in most cases radon mitigation retrofits fail to use the best practice methods, because just like builders homeowners want to pay the least possible amount rather than attain the best air quality. I only hope that every homeowner has a contract that includes a payment schedule over 6 months and that requires that the system pass two tests prior to the release of two payments held in escrow.

And it is also true as I mentioned, the radon ready program failed to gain any traction. Builder's claimed that they'd never make any profit if they had to install radon ready passive systems in homes. Note builders claimed the same thing during code consultations that were considering making HRVs mandatory in all new homes back when the average new home price was about $225,000.  The average home price is now







I am glad that you too find it disturbing. Well I actually find it criminally negligent...  but production builders have one of the most influential lobbies in Canada. We need people like you to write to our provincial leaders to lobby for changes to codes to mandate  at least the minimum radon mitigation of a ready ready home.

Oh and I forgot to add... the feds under pressure from lobbyists and conflicting advice, or the lack of a standard condition always try to simplify and fall back to the lowest common denominator. So in the case of basements that base condition is that every basement at least should have an open floor area of 9 square feet near an exterior fall in which a dry sump pit can be placed to accumulate and vent any soil gasses before they can infiltrate the home.  

The thinking behind that decision was that if at least a section of the foundation area could be depressurized sufficiently that the balance of the areas that continued to permit radon infiltration would be low enough, that in combination with the higher level of natural ventilation in leaky older holes would result in radon rates lower than 100 bq/m3


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## StevSmar (Feb 2, 2022)

Our house in Winnipeg had radon levels which were about 350, luckily not super high but high enough that I decided to install a radon fan.

One great side effect is that it improved the concrete efflorescence issue we also have, by the ventilation helping to dry out underneath the slab.

It wasn’t a hard install and I think I spent about $500 in total about seven years ago. I vented out the side of the house since Radon is heavier than air and there weren’t living space windows nearby. Peak Radon levels occur in the late winter (if I recall correctly), so the windows are still closed during the Radon “peak” anyway.

Now our radon levels in the basement are about the same as “ambient” radon levels outside (I doubt my meter reads that accurately at this level so “about the same” could mean twice, but our interior readings are about 25% of what they were before the install (if my meter is linear…))


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## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

So I'm not fully researched on this subject yey, so I'm going to ask a couple of questions that might be basic.

I have an older home (66 years) and have put in weeping tile around the footing and made a sump pump hole in the basement.  Is the  drainage tile and open sump hole (that's dry most of the time) likey spots for radon entry?


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## deleted_user (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> So I'm not fully researched on this subject yey, so I'm going to ask a couple of questions that might be basic.
> 
> I have an older home (66 years) and have put in weeping tile around the footing and made a sump pump hole in the basement.  Is the  drainage tile and open sump hole (that's dry most of the time) likey spots for radon entry?


Yes.

Radon can infiltrate into the home via a simple crack in the concrete floor. An open sump pit is like an open garage door. 

The are many reasons why we want to ensure that our foundations have zero penetration points. Radon is just one of them.


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## StevSmar (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Is the  drainage tile and open sump hole (that's dry most of the time) likey spots for radon entry?


For the floor drain in the laundry, I installed a  “Dranger” cover that has a built in P-trap. It’s a pain to keep it filled with water but it provides a vapour seal (our weeping tiles drain into the floor drain)

I don’t know how you’d seal the other floor penetrations, I imagine it could be something similar?


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## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

So it appears to me (if i understand correctly) radon reduction systems draw the air up from beneath the floor foundation and vent it out.  Would pressurizing my sump hole and forcing air out through the drainage tile work. That's assuming cracks in floor or wall are not available/easier paths for the radon gas to re-enter?


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## deleted_user (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> So it appears to me (if i understand correctly) radon reduction systems draw the air up from beneath the floor foundation and vent it out.  Would pressurizing my sump hole and forcing air out through the drainage tile work. That's assuming cracks in floor or wall are not available/easier paths for the radon gas to re-enter?


There is real danger of pressurizing the subslab area and causing more infiltration into the home via other pathways.

The best practice is always to seal sumps, and then vent them out by depressurizing the subslab and expelling the soil gasses to the exterior with an inline fan...


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## deleted_user (Feb 2, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> For the floor drain in the laundry, I installed a  “Dranger” cover that has a built in P-trap. It’s a pain to keep it filled with water but it provides a vapour seal (our weeping tiles drain into the floor drain)
> 
> I don’t know how you’d seal the other floor penetrations, I imagine it could be something similar?


Older homes where the sanitary sewer and the stormwater sewers are combined are more difficult to seal.  That you installed a p-trap is great. Best practice method. They make laundry taps with a small side tap that you can connect to tubing that will prime the p-trap evry time someone uses the faucet.

Other penetrations typically get caulked. Unless it is a exposed dirt crawlspace that is


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## StevSmar (Feb 2, 2022)

The way radon primarily gets into a house, is that during the winter the ground freezes so the Radon gas needs to go somewhere, and the path of least resistance is through an area that’s not frozen, like a basement. (This is a simplified explanation)

(It’s hard not to get “carried away” with the risk that Radon presents, we’ve been accustomed to thinking of all radiation as being bad. My own personal unsubstantiated and uneducated opinion is that Lung Cancer rates in Winnipeg are not sky high, so perhaps Radon is not as great a direct risk as we might think? The reading I did suggested that smoking was a much higher risk factor. I’m neither a doctor nor scientist, so my opinion should be treated accordingly. Perhaps I’ve just become accustomed to Radon being present so it no longer concerns me, though it was comforting to find that after installing a fan, my basement radon levels were not much different from those outside)


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## StevSmar (Feb 2, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> …They make laundry taps with a small side tap that you can connect to tubing that will prime the p-trap evry time someone uses the faucet.


Wow, that’s great to know this!!! I’m always having to remember to check the floor drain and fill it probably once every two weeks.


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## deleted_user (Feb 2, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> The way radon primarily gets into a house, is that during the winter the ground freezes so the Radon gas needs to go somewhere, and the path of least resistance is through an area that’s not frozen, like a basement. (This is a simplified explanation)
> 
> (It’s hard not to get “carried away” with the risk that Radon presents, we’ve been accustomed to thinking of all radiation as being bad. My own personal unsubstantiated and uneducated opinion is that Lung Cancer rates in Winnipeg are not sky high, so perhaps Radon is not as great a direct risk as we might think? The reading I did suggested that smoking was a much higher risk factor. I’m neither a doctor nor scientist, so my opinion should be treated accordingly. Perhaps I’ve just become accustomed to Radon being present so it no longer concerns me, though it was comforting to find that after installing a fan, my basement radon levels were not much different from those outside)


This is wrong. uranium particles in the decay year round, including when the surface grade is frozen to the frost line...  

soil gasses enter homes year round. Radon is a year round risk, with the highest risks being in the shoulder months of spring and fall, when our furnaces or air conditioners have yet to come on for the season and our homes have the least stack effect and least ventilation.  Ventilation and infiltration rates play a key role in risk right after uranium levels in soil.

25% of the homes in Canada are at risk, regionally up to 40% of homes. Winnipeg is bad. The Health Canada survey found that Manitoba has the second-highest percentage, at *23.7 per cent*, of homes in the country with radon concentrations over 200 becquerels. But that number of homes would more than double if Canada adopted the World Health Organization's limit of 100 becquerels.

at 100 bq the lung cancer incidence is high,  2 times as many lung cancer deaths could be prevented each year alone if all homes with radon levels above 100 Bq/m³ were remediated instead of only remediating homes with concentrations above 200 Bq/m³.

So basically 50% of Manitoba homes need remediation, of screw the victims. 

I  rely on science and informed and education opinions myself


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## StevSmar (Feb 3, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> This is wrong. uranium particles in the decay year round, including when the surface grade is frozen to the frost line...


@TorontoBuilder 
- Yes, it is true that the Radon decay process is not effected by whether the ground is frozen.
- It’s my belief too that Radon infiltration into a house is primarily from the stack effect (from temperature differential), however if the temperature differential was the only factor, then why do radon levels peak in the mid to late winter in Winnipeg and not have similar levels in December when it’s just as cold? (If I remember correctly December and January in Winnipeg had pretty similar heating degree days) The only explanation I can think of is that the ground is now deeply frozen so the easiest path for radon to escape is through a house via the basement. (Perhaps it’s related to packed snow levels, though packed snow seems to be quite porous to me?)
- I don’t dispute the high number of Canadian homes which have higher levels of Radon, but if Radon is such a risk, then why isn’t there a greatly increased number of Lung Cancer deaths in Winnipeg and the other areas of Canada which higher than average levels of Radon? The conclusion I came to is that Radon is a risk factor, and other factors such as smoking, appeared to be higher risk factors for Lung Cancer.
- I investigated Radon about 7 years ago and the links to Lung Cancer seemed rather tenuous, I acknowledge that my knowledge is getting rather dated.

For others reading this thread, the practical reason for wanting to know when the seasonal peak for Radon occurs in your area is only because this is when you should test.
(The actual mechanism for the peak is interesting to me, but it’s more academic than practical.)
(Health Canada does recommend you avoid areas when they have high Radon levels, but I don’t consider this practical, especially since the basement is where I have my workshop…)
Because I installed a Radon fan that shows I made the decision that Radon was a risk factor that I wanted to decrease, especially because it was a risk factor I could decrease. And since Radon reduction is a realatively simple thing to do, why wouldn’t you do it.


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## deleted_user (Feb 3, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> @TorontoBuilder
> - Yes, it is true that the Radon decay process is not effected by whether the ground is frozen.
> - It’s my belief too that Radon infiltration into a house is primarily from the stack effect (from temperature differential), however if the temperature differential was the only factor, then why do radon levels peak in the mid to late winter in Winnipeg and not have similar levels in December when it’s just as cold? (If I remember correctly December and January in Winnipeg had pretty similar heating degree days) The only explanation I can think of is that the ground is now deeply frozen so the easiest path for radon to escape is through a house via the basement. (Perhaps it’s related to packed snow levels, though packed snow seems to be quite porous to me?)
> - I don’t dispute the high number of Canadian homes which have higher levels of Radon, but if Radon is such a risk, then why isn’t there a greatly increased number of Lung Cancer deaths in Winnipeg and the other areas of Canada which higher than average levels of Radon? The conclusion I came to is that Radon is a risk factor, and other factors such as smoking, appeared to be higher risk factors for Lung Cancer.
> ...


The fact is that peak radon levels are related primarily to the driving force of radon, air infiltration, and that is natural ventilation caused by stack effect. Of course there are many other contributing factors and some houses will test as outliers because they have other factors that weigh more heavily than natural ventilation. 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread that IS the shoulder months of spring and fall. 

My opinion is informed by decades of working in building science, having personally tested 100s of homes for air infiltration and supervised and reviewed infiltration testing of thousands of homes. 

Additionally my firm conducted extensive surveys using tracer gas testing and blower doors to investigate if and how natural ventilation and blower door depressurization air tests may contribute to increased health risks of Canadian Homes. Some of the risks being examined in particular were soil gases including radon, insulation materials off-gassing, outdoor pollutants, and asbestos insulation and siding products.

What informs your opinion?


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## Janger (Feb 3, 2022)

I appreciate the discussion.


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## deleted_user (Feb 3, 2022)

Janger said:


> I appreciate the discussion.


I do too, but I'm not afraid to be challenging when I am top subject matter expert in Canada on a subject and someone tries to keep pushing misinformation. They can feel free to do so but I want to hear credentials in such cases. 

one further point, only soil gasses coming from directly below your home and the immediate vicinity infiltrate homes. The soil below your home never freezes... because foundations must either be below the frost line, or conform to frost protected requirements to prevent freezing.


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## Janger (Feb 3, 2022)

no flames is all I ask.


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## YYCHM (Feb 3, 2022)

Anyone in Calgary have a hand held Radon meter I can borrow for a couple of days?


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## DPittman (Feb 4, 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/radon-gas-canadian-homes-higher-sweden-1.6261607


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## deleted_user (Feb 4, 2022)

DPittman said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/radon-gas-canadian-homes-higher-sweden-1.6261607


indicative of two differing strategies on how to affect change.

Canada has been loath to regulate home-building industry. Sweden not so much. The difference? The influence of lobbyist groups and I'd hazard a guess fewer huge production homebuilders in Sweden to form lobbyist groups. 

But I could be wrong... maybe Swedes are more informed and demanding consumers.  My experience is with US and Canadian production builders


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## StevSmar (Feb 5, 2022)

Janger said:


> no flames is all I ask.


In my opinion, we're currently having a healthy debate.

Before I respond to @TorontoBuilder 's questions, l would like to clarify my position:
- Should everyone test their houses for radon: It's a personal choice, but why wouldn't you want to know?
- Should everyone who has elevated levels of radon look into some form of mitigation: I certainly would, and I don't understand why you wouldn't.
- Should you be required to provide a Radon test from an independent testing laboratory when you are selling a new or existing house: I'm glad that I'm not a policy maker or politician. I'd not want to touch that question with a 10' pole...
- Should radon fans be required in all new construction: Not sure. At the very least it should be made easy for the home owner to install a radon fan if necessary. In Winnipeg, it's heartening to see that new homes are at least required to have piping installed under the slab with a stub up through the floor.
- As to the question that is of primary importance: Risk. I'll elaborate a little on why I have the opinion that I do below.

I would also like to reiterate that I discovered high Radon levels in our house over 7 years ago. Research is always evolving and the risk levels of today may not be the risk levels of tomorrow, and vice verse. I have done no further research on Radon risks since then, so treat my opinions accordingly.


TorontoBuilder said:


> What informs your opinion?





TorontoBuilder said:


> ...someone tries to keep pushing misinformation. They can feel free to do so but I want to hear credentials in such cases...


My qualifications are that I worked as an Engineer in building construction for over 20 years. My area of practice was Electrical and Project Management and I had ready access to Engineers and Architects for knowledge outside of my area of practice. I consider that I have a very good understanding of most of the factors which go into building construction and also have a good chance of realizing when I am stepping outside of my area of knowledge. 
- Does my experience and background qualify me to discuss mitigation measures: I think it does for sub-slab Radon ventilation fans, certainly for uncomplicated installations.
- Should I discuss the risks associated with Radon gas inhalation in a public forum: My opinion is not until I've done research and developed a reasonably informed opinion and then at the very least ensured that my opinions are presented in a manner that encourages those who would like to do further research. If my previous posts haven't achieved this, then hopefully this post will clarify.
- Does this qualify me to pass myself as an expert on the risks associated with Radon gas inhalation: I'm an engineer, not a scientist or doctor that specializes in the study of health aspects of Radon inhalation.

Here's my "Radon Education and Mitigation" story:
In Winnipeg, probably at lease once a year, there is a media report about Radon, so when we moved into this current house Radon testing was high on my lists of investigations to do once we took possession.

In the fall time I borrowed a non-certified Radon meter from a co-worker and was horrified when it came back with a short-term reading that was almost twice that which Health Canada recommended, especially since I was conditioned to think that any ionizing radiation is bad. Lots of thoughts swirled through my mind: should I avoid going into the basement; should I turn off the recirculation fan on the furnace; should I leave windows open in the living areas etc. etc. etc. The next step though was to have a long-term Radon test done by an Environmental Testing laboratory and while I was waiting for that result, start researching risks and mitigation strategies. I can tell you it wasn't very comfortable going into the basement for a while and I definitely didn't even consider setting up my workshop there.
(The reason I borrowed the meter in the fall, is that I knew that we were heading into peak Radon season and this would then give me enough time to get a certified test done if necessary. I also then purchased my own non-certified meter as soon as I got the initial high result, so I could monitor trends and also use it after mitigation)

This really is the crux of why I responded to this thread. Radon is a risk, but so it getting in your car to grab a cup of coffee, and I can tell you that every morning getting coffee is a risk I’m willing to take.

Our house also has a moisture problem in the basement. My wife hates it when she sees the white powder on the floor (efflorescence) and thinks it's going to cause Cancer. All the research I've done says it's harmless, though I'm certainly not going to eat it. A co-worker who also had high Radon levels mentioned how prior to installing his sub-slab ventilation fan, he couldn't put a cardboard box on the floor without it falling apart. This is why I went straight to the installation of a Radon fan, since I also had a similar problem. There are other possible solutions that I could have tried first, like passive under-slab ventilation via the stack effect, but I didn't even consider them because I hated seeing the white powder too.

I spent probably 20-40 hours(?) reading about the health risks associated with Radon. I don't know if that's enough to develop an informed opinion, but it was enough for me. I started first reading the Health Canada recommendations then US, then European, then I read about the initial investigations into links between Radon and Lung Cancer, then follow on studies which re-examined the initial studies in light of new research. Then I looked into the risk factors associated with Lung Cancer in general. I kept on coming back to the question though: "Why don't a large percentage of people in Winnipeg have Lung Cancer, we are after all a hot spot for Radon".
I think the literature is unanimous that high Radon levels present an increased risk factor for Lung Cancer, but what was not clear to me is how the other risks like smoking, breathing particulates in from sitting in vehicles in traffic, woodworking dust, etc. etc. compare.

Luckily for me I had a uncomplicated install. The test ports I drilled suggested that I’d have a good chance of achieving ventilation from all corners of my house. And when I installed my Radon fan, subsequent testing showed a dramatic reduction in Radon levels. If I hadn’t seen a dramatic reduction though, then my next step would have been to find a specialist in Radon mitigation installations. 

Hopefully this additional background is helpful, and has also clarified the context of my opinions.


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## StevSmar (Feb 5, 2022)

An interesting (to me) side story. After I found out our house had high Radon levels, I felt compelled to let my neighbors know and offered to lend them my non-certified Radon meter.

Three of my neighbors said they didn't want to know, the remainder had already tested. 

In some way I'm jealous, I wish I could just ignore a possible risk like those three neighbors had chosen to do.


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> In my opinion, we're currently having a healthy debate.
> 
> Before I respond to @TorontoBuilder 's questions, l would like to clarify my position:
> - Should everyone test their houses for radon: It's a personal choice, but why wouldn't you want to know?
> ...


I agree that I thought we were having a healthy debate, and I only took one exception to one assertion StevSmar made.

I have one more exception now... I'd mandate radon testing prior to sale... because the history of realtor and builder lobbying against health and safety improvements in Canadian housing stocks is toxic. I was a stakeholder in a group that consulted on whether or not HRVs should be required in all new homes. Builders plead poverty and claimed we wont sell another home. 

I was a stakeholder in a group that consulted on whether or all homes should have home inspections and energy rating and be required to provide those to potential buyers at the time of resale. Many builders plead poverty and said we wont sell another home, the realtor's lobby jumped on board and said no one will never buy and other older home that requires improvements. Both of these excuses were transparent lies. Now we've had lobbying to prevent radon ratings at the time of sale, using the most transparent BS lies imaginable... "we wont be able to sell a home with a poor rating".... ah pardon me? dilapidated hovels are selling for a million bucks or more over the past few years. Nothing is impeding this housing market. 

I'd prefer that people voluntarily fix their toxic homes prior to selling them to unwitting public,  but every effort, and the efforts have been huge, has failed to get voluntary compliance with health and safety goals. The housing industry is where the auto industry was prior to the widespread adoption of seatbelts.  All these articles you see on radon, their paid advertorials instigated by and paid for buy the govt in order to push consumers to demand better in the homes they buy. The downside is that this type of policy change takes years. So yeah I'd regulate in a heartbeat

Meanwhile, about 50% of homes present an elevated risk. 50%. Simple cost effective remediation can save thousands of lives being lost per year due to lung cancer. IF I were in charge I'd mandate radon testing before sale of home in a heartbeat. Just as I'd mandate a minimum radon ready install protocol for all new homes. I'd mandate HRVs in every new home too, and there is no incremental cost if the home is financed, because the energy savings costs offset the added cost of the equipment on the mortgage.

If I were anyone else, I'd buy a decent radon meter for 200 bucks or less. I'd take regular readings and log


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> An interesting (to me) side story. After I found out our house had high Radon levels, I felt compelled to let my neighbors know and offered to lend them my non-certified Radon meter.
> 
> Three of my neighbors said they didn't want to know, the remainder had already tested.
> 
> In some way I'm jealous, I wish I could just ignore a possible risk like those three neighbors had chosen to do.


some people still smoke, so it comes as no surprise


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## StevSmar (Feb 5, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I agree that I thought we were having a healthy debate…


Yes, it continues to be an interesting conversation.


TorontoBuilder said:


> …I'd mandate radon testing prior to sale...


When I buy an appliance, it has an energy star rating and a warranty so it allows a relatively informed purchasing decision.
For the vast majority, a house purchase is the most major purchase of our lives. I sure wish they came with a star rating that covered things like environmental testing, energy consumption and expected lifespan.
I feel for naive or misdirected homeowners.

(My big annoyance was how when we were designing buildings, we weren’t required to provide an energy simulation etc. I hope that has changed now.)


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Yes, it continues to be an interesting conversation.
> 
> When I buy an appliance, it has an energy star rating and a warranty so it allows a relatively informed purchasing decision.
> For the vast majority, a house purchase is the most major purchase of our lives. I sure wish they came with a star rating that covered things like environmental testing, energy consumption and expected lifespan.
> ...



Natural Resources Canada has long had a home energy efficiency rating system called EnerGuide for Houses. More recently in the mid 2010s we developed an EnerStar for New Homes rating for those new homes that outperform the standard new home efficiency.





__





						The 1–100 EnerGuide scale
					






					www.nrcan.gc.ca
				








__





						The 1–100 EnerGuide scale
					






					www.nrcan.gc.ca
				








__





						ENERGY STAR for New Homes
					






					www.nrcan.gc.ca
				




Sadly various govts keep crippling these programs and renege on their agreements with builders to promote these programs to consumers.


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## Janger (Feb 5, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> "Why don't a large percentage of people in Winnipeg have Lung Cancer, we are after all a hot spot for Radon".


Just as a guess - is it not detectable in the data because the problem is fairly uniform across Canada? The map I found of a study of Calgary found about half the homes here have a 100bq/m3 or more problem too. See link #15.


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The housing industry is where the auto industry was prior to the widespread adoption of seatbelts.



Well,...... you touched a sensitive button with that comment @TorontoBuilder ! LOL! 

It is a popular public misconception that the auto industry doesn't do anything until forced to do so by regulation. I believe the media loves to portray things this way and the majority of the public buys it hook line and sinker. 

The fact is that the auto industry lobbied FOR said regulations. They wanted a level playing field. The people who develop safety features usually develop them for consumers - they have families and people they care about too. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see the benefits of wearing a seat belt. Seat belts safe lives - period. 

The industry originally wanted them to be standard equipment. But consumers didn't like having to pay for something they didn't want. And seat belts were expensive. Not for the parts, but rather for the vehicle structural system that works with them, the major structural changes to support them, and for the very expensive testing to develop them and prove that they work. 

For a while, the industry offered vehicles with and without them. But people wouldn't buy them. Those that did wouldn't wear them. 

Then even more expensive air bags and other passive systems were developed and the bar was raised. These passive systems were originally designed to protect people who refused to wear their belts. However, they didn't work as well as belts did. So NHTSA in the USA did what they often do. They put the monkey on industries back AGAIN. They basically said that if industry couldn't get 60% (don't quote me on the number) of consumers (based on state regulations) to wear their seat belts, then NHTSA would have no choice but to mandate passive restraints. So the industry launched a massive PR program to promote seat belt usage with consumers and with State Legislators. They DID NOT SUCCEED. So passive restraints were mandated. 

Interestingly, Transport Canada did not take this same approach. Transport recognized that belts worked better than bags and mandated belts. They literally didn't care if there were bags or not.  The result was extradinarily high belt usage rates in Canada. 

When the smoke all cleared, the end result was bags mandated in the US and belts mandated in Canada. However, the industry bore full cost for both. At that point we were just talking the cost of hardware - not testing or design because the testing and design had to be done anyway! So all vehicles in both countries have both belts and bags today. And the result is safer vehicles for everyone whether or not they wear their belts! It's a very good ending to a complicated story. 

Let me just add that it's the same story for almost anything you want to name in the auto industry. It's almost never what people are told by the media. Care to hear about enissions, or fuel economy, or leaded fuel, or  or or..... 

There are a few examples that are the other way though. But they are yet another story for another post. 

Sorry for the lengthy defense. Just couldn't sit quietly by while you compared auto industry guys like me to all those horrible nasty despicable rotten puss spewing blood sucking scum bags in building construction.....


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## Janger (Feb 5, 2022)

Interesting Susquatch. I had a friend with a very conservative family - they would not wear seat belts. Predictably a minor car accident put them all in the hospital with broken bones cuts etc. They all recovered. I quizzed him at length trying to understand why they would not wear belts. He agreed they probably would have been fine if they had been wearing belts. The clearest reasoning I could get out of him was something about freedom and not liking people telling them what to do - even if it is in their best interest. They still don't wear seat belts. What do I do with similar puzzling reasoning? Riding a motorcycle perhaps.


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## YYCHM (Feb 5, 2022)

Janger said:


> What do I do with similar puzzling reasoning? Riding a motorcycle perhaps.



Do you ride without a helmet and leathers?


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## Janger (Feb 5, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Do you ride without a helmet and leathers?


No. All the gear all the time. Boots. Motorcycle Pants. Gloves. Helmet. Armoured jacket.


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Well,...... you touched a sensitive button with that comment @TorontoBuilder ! LOL!
> 
> It is a popular public misconception that the auto industry doesn't do anything until forced to do so by regulation. I believe the media loves to portray things this way and the majority of the public buys it hook line and sinker.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I simplified a far more complex and nuanced issue to boil down to the strongest influencer.

There are builders who build better and they have for years been the minority lobbying for a level playing field, because there is a whol class of buyers who arrive, ask how many square feet is this home.... then break out the calculator to find the price per square foot. Then say "so and so's home cheaper... you have to lower your price." Those consumers know there are differing quality standards, they just want to negotiate and break balls. They should not dictate market standards.

You can't help stupid. There will always be purchasers who oppose something. We cant create standards to the lowest threshold... but sadly our system operates by having to move public opinion until an overwhelming majority (75% or more) support something before we can gain political will to regulate something.


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

Janger said:


> Just as a guess - is it not detectable in the data because the problem is fairly uniform across Canada? The map I found of a study of Calgary found about half the homes here have a 100bq/m3 or more problem too. See link #15.



exposure thresholds just mean that people have a higher chance of getting cancer, not that they will all get cancer in their lifetime.  except if they live long enough... BUT places like Winnipeg and SK will see far more victims of lung cancer than other locales. The cause is radon.

environmentally caused cancer it a crap shoot. cancer causing agents typically damage cells by various modes, the products of radon decay release energy which fries lung cells. Every time there is damage it is like rolling the dice whether the damage will lead to a cell mutation that is malignant. 

Life is a game of Russian roulette with a revolver that has 30,000 chambers and only one round.

Living in a home with elevated radon levels is like adding 100 more rounds to the chamber.  

Smoking is like adding another 500 rounds to the chamber. 

Now factor in that in lung cancer, it's like you were cowardly clown who tried to jerk the gun away at the last second, resulting in missing vital organs causing gross disfigurement and slow agonizing death instead of a nice quick death


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> You can't help stupid. There will always be purchasers who oppose something. We cant create standards to the lowest threshold... but sadly our system operates by having to move public opinion until an overwhelming majority (75% or more) support something before we can gain political will to regulate something.



Perhaps.

But at the risk of taking yet another unpopular stand, I'm more on the page that says we are over-regulated already. I'd rather see less regs than more.

Can you imagine what would happen if the knife was invented today? They would all be regulated.

Stupidity will always exist. Darwin looks after them eventually.

My dad used to say that:  "When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It's only hard on everyone else around you. It's the same when you are stupid......"   I didn't much like how often he would tell me that....


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But at the risk of taking yet another unpopular stand, I'm more on the page that says we are over-regulated already. I'd rather see less regs than more.
> 
> ...


remember the collapse of the Algo mall in Elliott Lake, without our regulations things like this would be regular occurrence. as they are in many areas outside of Canada. I'm for protecting survivors from the stupidity of their relatives, from corporate avarice and greed and as much human error as possible.  

Many of those who argue that we are over regulated place a little value on human life and disregard the vast resources and expertise behind the regulations that determine on the balance of the whole, the benefits of regulation outweigh the potential infringement on free and open society. Some people drink and smoke while pregnant too, I dont think they can claim ignorance. 

I can't think of a single case where those behind regulations used violence to impose their view either... or coercion. It is next to impossible to pass regulation without the support of overwhelming majority.

We better be careful this is bordering on political discussion eh

Sports though, I think we have far too much sports and that it is a leading source of modeling many negative behaviours


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> remember the collapse of the Algo mall in Elliott Lake, without our regulations things like this would be regular occurrence. as they are in many areas outside of Canada. I'm for protecting survivors from the stupidity of their relatives, from corporate avarice and greed and as much human error as possible.
> 
> Many of those who argue that we are over regulated place a little value on human life and disregard the vast resources and expertise behind the regulations that determine on the balance of the whole, the benefits of regulation outweigh the potential infringement on free and open society. Some people drink and smoke while pregnant too, I dont think they can claim ignorance.
> 
> ...



Ya, you are prolly right. The regulatory view prolly does border on politics. I spent too much of my time arguing with bureaucrats so I have a biased view of the matter. 

Let's just agree to disagree and move on! Besides, there are WAY better things to debate on here!


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## StevSmar (Feb 6, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Let's just agree to disagree and move on! Besides, there are WAY better things to debate on here!



Well, this definitely isn’t a metalworking topic. Though I do think that those who frequent a forum like this would tend to be more than capable of installing their own radon mitigation if needed, so perhaps this is an appropriate forum for a discussion like this? Especially if the knowledge is also provided on when it’s time to call in the specialists if things don’t go to plan.

I sure enjoyed reading your perspective on safety improvements in vehicles.


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## Susquatch (Feb 6, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Well, this definitely isn’t a metalworking topic. Though I do think that those who frequent a forum like this would tend to be more than capable of installing their own radon mitigation if needed, so perhaps this is an appropriate forum for a discussion like this? Especially if the knowledge is also provided on when it’s time to call in the specialists if things don’t go to plan.
> 
> I sure enjoyed reading your perspective on safety improvements in vehicles.



Now that I agree with! 

Machines, test equipment, and testing is a very wide subject and I would think we could definitely cover that part here!


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## deleted_user (Feb 6, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Well, this definitely isn’t a metalworking topic. Though I do think that those who frequent a forum like this would tend to be more than capable of installing their own radon mitigation if needed, so perhaps this is an appropriate forum for a discussion like this? Especially if the knowledge is also provided on when it’s time to call in the specialists if things don’t go to plan.
> 
> I sure enjoyed reading your perspective on safety improvements in vehicles.


This discussion and DIY plans should be on every forum.

I merely suggested that the discussion on the necessity and extent that society is regulated may be veering too far.


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## Six O Two (Feb 18, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> I measure the levels in 3 different areas of the house over a period of 3 weeks and found that they were actually worse than what the mail in report showed.



Revisiting this thread. It prompted me to order a Radon detector, and I've had it running in the basement for 3 days now. My results are the same as John's in that they're much worse than what the mail in report showed. My mail-in results showed 222 Bq/m^3 at one end of the basement, and 170 Bq/m^3 at the other. Granted, these were done in the spring/summer. The readings in these first few days during winter are markedly higher.






At the time, I wasn't aware that the Canadian guidance around 200 Bq/m^3 was double the WHO's. Anyways, fan has been ordered. Our home is relatively new construction (1990's) and appears to have rough-in already for mitigation, so hopefully the install will be pretty straightforward. I think I can run the exhaust up from the basement floor and straight out the back side of the house at basement ceiling level. I'll have to see how loud the fan is, because if it's pretty noisy, I might want to run the pipe towards the garage and have the fan in the garage rafters.


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## Hruul (Mar 18, 2022)

Thanks for the write up @John Conroy.  I will have to order a meter for my house and check the levels.  I have thought about it before, but always put it off.


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 18, 2022)

I've hung a radon test and will send it in after 90 days.  Those results may result in the purchase of a detector/remediation.


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## Chicken lights (Mar 18, 2022)

Janger said:


> Interesting Susquatch. I had a friend with a very conservative family - they would not wear seat belts. Predictably a minor car accident put them all in the hospital with broken bones cuts etc. They all recovered. I quizzed him at length trying to understand why they would not wear belts. He agreed they probably would have been fine if they had been wearing belts. The clearest reasoning I could get out of him was something about freedom and not liking people telling them what to do - even if it is in their best interest. They still don't wear seat belts. What do I do with similar puzzling reasoning? Riding a motorcycle perhaps.


I’m not that old but I remember travelling as a kid to the east coast in the back of a blazer or a station wagon, with a mattress to nap on. No car seat, no seat belts nothing. 

Fast forward 30 years- I took my stepsister and her oldest boy for a ride in the big horse and she FREAKED that he wasn’t in a car seat, no seatbelt no air bags nothing. Started babbling about child services and not getting spotted. 

I didn’t even bother (much) trying to explain that being inside a 35,000 pound  rig was probably far safer than him in a car seat in a 2500 pound SUV. I don’t know what’s happened to this country but common sense doesn’t seem to stick to city folk. Or am I the dinosaur that doesn’t have a problem with kids not belted in?


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## YYCHM (Mar 18, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> I've hung a radon test and will send it in after 90 days.  Those results may result in the purchase of a detector/remediation.



Details please.....


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I’m not that old but I remember travelling as a kid to the east coast in the back of a blazer or a station wagon, with a mattress to nap on. No car seat, no seat belts nothing.
> 
> Fast forward 30 years- I took my stepsister and her oldest boy for a ride in the big horse and she FREAKED that he wasn’t in a car seat, no seatbelt no air bags nothing. Started babbling about child services and not getting spotted.
> 
> I didn’t even bother (much) trying to explain that being inside a 35,000 pound  rig was probably far safer than him in a car seat in a 2500 pound SUV. I don’t know what’s happened to this country but common sense doesn’t seem to stick to city folk. Or am I the dinosaur that doesn’t have a problem with kids not belted in?



It's funny how few people actually do understand. It's really plain old physics. 

It's not probably. Your big horse IS WAY SAFER than any SUV. 

Next time you see her, you could try pointing out that trains, buses, and ships don't have belts either. If she asks about jumbo jets, you might have to get into the physics of 3D travel a bit. But I doubt she will ask.


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 18, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Details please.....


The company my son works for (electrical contractor out of Okotoks) also does radon gas testing.   One of their methods involves a kit where you hang a the appliance (looks like an ant trap) in a frequented room (family room).  They typically hang them with dental floss from a smoke detector.  You let it sit there for90 days, then fill out a form, mail it away and they test it.

anywhoo, I've been lending the odd tool to my son for use on the jobsite for a while so he was able to get me one of the tests.  I'm going to see how it turns out before I invest in an electronic one.


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## Six O Two (Mar 20, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> The company my son works for (electrical contractor out of Okotoks) also does radon gas testing.   One of their methods involves a kit where you hang a the appliance (looks like an ant trap) in a frequented room (family room).  They typically hang them with dental floss from a smoke detector.  You let it sit there for90 days, then fill out a form, mail it away and they test it.



This won't be of much help in Alberta, but for any BC residents who are curious, there are some outfits in the province here that provide free testing of this kind. That's where we started. Here in the Kootenays, there's the Donna Schmidt Lung Cancer Prevention Society. There's some outfits specific to the Okanagan as well. Maybe check with your local or provincial lung cancer foundation and see if there's anything available. Although having said that, if you can't get them for free, the mail-in tests are quite affordable as I recall.


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## Perry (Mar 21, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> Revisiting this thread. It prompted me to order a Radon detector, and I've had it running in the basement for 3 days now. My results are the same as John's in that they're much worse than what the mail in report showed. My mail-in results showed 222 Bq/m^3 at one end of the basement, and 170 Bq/m^3 at the other. Granted, these were done in the spring/summer. The readings in these first few days during winter are markedly higher.
> 
> View attachment 21165
> 
> At the time, I wasn't aware that the Canadian guidance around 200 Bq/m^3 was double the WHO's. Anyways, fan has been ordered. Our home is relatively new construction (1990's) and appears to have rough-in already for mitigation, so hopefully the install will be pretty straightforward. I think I can run the exhaust up from the basement floor and straight out the back side of the house at basement ceiling level. I'll have to see how loud the fan is, because if it's pretty noisy, I might want to run the pipe towards the garage and have the fan in the garage rafters.


Did you make sure you reset the unit .    Your unit looks the same as mine (Different brand name) .  Taking the batteries out does not reset the unit.  After installing the batteries you need to do the reset procedure.


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## Perry (Mar 21, 2022)

Any of the Calgary (and area) guys that would like to test their houses are welcome to borrow my testing unit.


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## YYCHM (Mar 21, 2022)

Perry said:


> Any of the Calgary (and area) guys that would like to test their houses are welcome to borrow my testing unit.



PM sent


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## Six O Two (Mar 21, 2022)

Perry said:


> Did you make sure you reset the unit .    Your unit looks the same as mine (Different brand name) .  Taking the batteries out does not reset the unit.  After installing the batteries you need to do the reset procedure.



There's a reset function on the back accessible with a thumbtack or paperclip. But in my case, it was two different testing devices. The first test was the long-term hanging units with mail-in results, and the second test with the higher reading was with a brand new, fresh short-term digital test unit.


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## StevSmar (Mar 22, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> anywhoo, I've been lending the odd tool to my son for use on the jobsite for a while so he was able to get me one of the tests.  I'm going to see how it turns out before I invest in an electronic one.


That’s similar to the path I took. A coworker lent me his electronic meter (which came back high), then I got a certified test done (which confirmed the high reading) and then I purchased an electronic one so I could see the seasonal changes and how well my mitigation worked.

The electronic Radon meter  stopped working after 7 years, perhaps the technology is similar to smoke detectors where the radiation source decays? (Pure guess).


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## StevSmar (Jul 22, 2022)

Since there seems to be continuing interest in Radon Testing and Mitigation, (such as in this thread: (Nicholson File Deals) ), I wanted to provide an update on the new Radon Detector I started up last week.

It’s an AirThings Wave-Plus “Air Quality” detector (Radon, CO2, humidity, temp, airborne chemicals (VOCs) and pressure) that I purchased for $100 off from Amazon.ca.

Loading the app was no problem (iPad/iPhone version, also available on android) and connecting the device was a non-issue.

The sensor is currently in the basement below the living room and so far there have been no issues connecting to it bluetooth-lessly. I don’t yet know how much onboard memory it has, so how long it is between synchronization with it’s app before you start losing data (I’ve asked).

I do like the app, which give a great overview. There is a web based version accessible from within the app, which I suspect keeps all the data and adds more functionality.

Here’s a screen shot of the web based display.




Since I won’t be getting an official test, I have no idea how accurate it is.

So far so good. If it keeps on working for at least two years I’ll be happy with it.


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## Perry (Jul 22, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Since there seems to be continuing interest in Radon Testing and Mitigation, (such as in this thread: (Nicholson File Deals) ), I wanted to provide an update on the new Radon Detector I started up last week.
> 
> It’s an AirThings Wave-Plus “Air Quality” detector (Radon, CO2, humidity, temp, airborne chemicals (VOCs) and pressure) that I purchased for $100 off from Amazon.ca.
> 
> ...


"web based version" ??   Does this upload all of your home data to the cloud? (The servers of company that sells the units ?)


The concern here was if you ever have to sell the property.  If you have tested and find that it exceed 200 becquerels... "this is a material latent defect and you must disclose the defect to potential buyers"     

Now I'm assuming there are people who would not want to disclose this information.  



I like the triple sensors on this.  It would be nice to also see a carbon monoxide reading.


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## StevSmar (Jul 22, 2022)

Perry said:


> "web based version" ??   Does this upload all of your home data to the cloud? (The servers of company that sells the units ?)…
> 
> Now I'm assuming there are people who would not want to disclose this information...


The data is probably uploaded to the cloud, I’ve yet to check that though.

Initially, I was concerned about having a house with a radon fan. However I had a friend point out that seeing a radon fan would be a plus for him, since he could see that it had been mitigated. I think he’s right, especially since Winnipeg is a radon hotspot.

Not only are Manitoban’s friendly, they glow with radiant enthusiasm.


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## Dabbler (Jul 23, 2022)

We just checked our and (phew) we are around 49 Bq/m3  so that's pretty good.  Two doors down, had 180.


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## StevSmar (Jul 23, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> We just checked our and (phew) we are around 49 Bq/m3  so that's pretty good.  Two doors down, had 180.


You’ll want to check again after freeze-up, that’s when levels start increasing.

I find it interesting how variable radon is with respect to location, it all depends on what type of rocks are below you etc. etc. etc. All the neighbours around us that have tested have high levels (there were a couple who didn’t want to borrow my Radon meter to find out…)


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## Dabbler (Jul 23, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> You’ll want to check again after freeze-up


I will.  buying my own meter today, in fact.


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## Susquatch (Jul 23, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I will.  buying my own meter today, in fact.


Please let us know what you bought and how you like it after receipt. Your review is worth a thousand reviews from Joe Public!


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## StevSmar (Jul 24, 2022)

I heard back from AirThings, their Wave Plus sensor can store 80 days of data onboard. That’s pretty good as far as I’m concerned.


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## Susquatch (Jul 24, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I heard back from AirThings, their Wave Plus sensor can store 80 days of data onboard. That’s pretty good as far as I’m concerned.



CI agree. Can you then download it for analysis and then clear it?


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## StevSmar (Jul 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> CI agree. Can you then download it for analysis and then clear it?


I’m pretty sure that as soon as you sync, the data is marked as “can be overwritten” (That’s the way I would do it…)

I loaded the app on my phone (we’re at the cottage) and all the data was available. So that tells me the data is uploaded to the cloud.

That’s an interesting question about can you download and clear the data, I’ll ask that question.


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## StevSmar (Jul 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> CI agree. Can you then download it for analysis and then clear it?


Yes, you can download the data to Excel CSV format and delete it from online.


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## StevSmar (Sep 24, 2022)

I thought I’d post an update on how my AirThings Air Quality detector is working.

After a couple of months of use, this is Radon:





It shows that our CO2 level is higher than recommended, we need to ventilate more:




(You can see when we were on holidays at the cottage, the low area in the middle of the trend.)


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## Susquatch (Sep 24, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I thought I’d post an update on how my AirThings Air Quality detector is working.



Great Stuff @StevSmar . Glad you posted this update. I've been thinking about your evaluation from time-to-time. 

Just wondering, did you ever do a calibration against the pro equipment?


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## StevSmar (Sep 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Just wondering, did you ever do a calibration against the pro equipment?


No, since I’m using the AirThings sensor only to keep an eye on whether the Radon Fan is still doing it’s job.


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