# Beginner question: Runout with a new Chinese drill chuck



## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 6, 2022)

I didn't expect much when I ordered it from Banggood, but the YouTube Banggood shill (Steve Jordan) said the quality was excellent. 
https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-M...er-p-1927133.html?cur_warehouse=CN&ID=6317246

Price for the chuck and the 2MT arbor (and chuck key) delivered was about the same as a Jacobs chuck key from KBC. 

Question: If there's less than .01mm runout at the arbor, what's acceptable runout at the base of  a new 5/16 drill in the chuck? 
(The chuck was cleaned of grease before using).

I'm seeing 0.35mm runout (.014" ?) using a dial test indicator and rotating/slipping the chuck in the lathe tailstock. 

Beginner question: this isn't normal, is it?


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 6, 2022)

Addendum: 
I had an old 'Victor' chuck on a MT2 arbor but the MT was pretty dinged up, so I figured I should replace it. "Get something new to go with the new 7x14 lathe..."
I did the same test with the DTI on it just now and got 0.05 mm runout.
"In with the old, out with the new"..


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## Degen (Mar 6, 2022)

It can actually be a bent shaft not chuck, a love tap or two can bring it inline.  Occasionally even on good equipment it is required either new or as a result of use.

What is important is is the drill bit running true.  If it is who cares.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 6, 2022)

Degen said:


> It can actually be a bent shaft not chuck, a love tap or two can bring it inline.  Occasionally even on good equipment it is required either new or as a result of use.
> 
> What is important is is the drill bit running true.  If it is who cares.


Thanks. The chuck body has almost the same runout. I checked with 3 or 4 different new/unused drills (>1/4" sizes) and got the same result; I think it's unlkely that the drills are bent. The chuck is mounted via a MT2 arbor in the lathe tailstock. Indicator on the cross slide.


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 7, 2022)

My 16 CAD Chinese chuck that I got two weeks ago has indicated runout of +- 0.0015. This is much better then used Jacobs, which is more like +-0.004. 

Do not use drills to check runout - use endmill and preferably carbide or US made quality stuff. Or use precision ground pin etc. Something you are sure has runout in the tenths. Not a drill bit - who knows what run out that thing has. 

BTW, my chuck for 16 CAD looks almost exactly, identical to what you have. It has a B16 (if I remember correctly) arbor to MT3. 

Yeah I am almost 99% sure its the same chuck. I have 2 of them, gave 1 to my dad. I only checked 1.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> My 16 CAD Chinese chuck that I got two weeks ago has indicated runout of +- 0.0015. T........
> 
> BTW, my chuck for 16 CAD looks almost exactly, identical to what you have. It has a B16 (if I remember correctly) arbor to MT3.
> 
> Yeah I am almost 99% sure its the same chuck. I have 2 of them, gave 1 to my dad. I only checked 1.


Thanks, Tom. Do you have a link for where you bought it, please? I paid quite a bit more than $16CAD!

Thanks for the advice about using an end mill or precision  ground pin...not something I have here, but I do have some solid carbide router bits. I'll double-check.

EDIT: 5 minutes later....Solid carbide 1/2" shank router bit shows runout of 0.36mm, a.k.a. .014"


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 7, 2022)

GBJ Woodworking Products 1/32" - 1/2"-Inch （1-13mm）Drill Chuck with #3 Morse Taper Arbor : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

GBJ Woodworking Products 1/32" - 1/2"-Inch （1-13mm）Drill Chuck with #3 Morse Taper Arbor : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca
				




Not sure whatever they still have stock.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Degen said:


> It can actually be a bent shaft not chuck, a love tap or two can bring it inline.  Occasionally even on good equipment it is required either new or as a result of use.


'love taps' ?....I don't follow, sorry. You are saying that machinists tap the chuck or the drill bit (with a hammer?) before drilling? Persumably checking the runout with....? Can't see how this would work with a 2mm drill.
As a beginner, I'm extremely slow working on the lathe (bad work sequence plans, etc.) but I really expect to put the chuck in the tailstock, put in a drill of some sort and drill without additional checks.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> GBJ Woodworking Products 1/32" - 1/2"-Inch （1-13mm）Drill Chuck with #3 Morse Taper Arbor : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> GBJ Woodworking Products 1/32" - 1/2"-Inch （1-13mm）Drill Chuck with #3 Morse Taper Arbor : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
> ...


Thanks for that.

You got a deal at $16!
Now:


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## Degen (Mar 7, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> 'love taps' ?....I don't follow, sorry. You are saying that machinists tap the chuck or the drill bit (with a hammer?) before drilling? Persumably checking the runout with....? Can't see how this would work with a 2mm drill.
> As a beginner, I'm extremely slow working on the lathe (bad work sequence plans, etc.) but I really expect to put the chuck in the tailstock, put in a drill of some sort and drill without additional checks.


Yes in essence, with some common sense."

First I would check your drill bit by rolling on a flat surface gives you an idea if it straight or not (remember you issue could be the bit) if it is, check runout on chuck and tap chuck to correct, usually one correct does all bits as it corrects the chuck mount. Re-adjustment should only be required if you do something silly.  Remember the more you do this the great the chance your shank will fail.

If this fix does work the chuck is junk.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Thanks for thse suggetions. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
I can easily imagine what would have happened to me in Gr 10 shop class in 1960 if I had gotten near a chuck with a hammer. 
I guess you are talking about a situation where the chuck body is loose enough on the arbor that it could be moved, or the taper in the quill or tailstock is loose. I haven't seen that.
I've convinced myself that in this case it's a faulty chuck since the arbor where it enters the chuck body has about 0.01 mm runout, the chuck body and a good carbide tool in the chuck both show >0.35mm runout. And the chuck and the arbor were both spotlessly clean (not even fingerprints) when they were mated with a twist, set with one solid-but-not-violent strike with aluminum padding (chuck jaws fully retracted). That chuck is not moving on the arbor.


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## PeterT (Mar 7, 2022)

Sometimes the arbor can be the issue. The taper that engages the spindle/socket, the taper that engages the chuck, or both. Ideally if you can insert it into something that rotates like a spindle & measure runout on the chuck end taper (independent of the chuck). You still have (ideally slight) bearing runout to contend with but it might highlight arbor issues. If the arbor has +/- 0.001" runout, then even a zero runout chuck will run out too witnessed on the dowel pin since its going along for the ride. If you don't have a matching spindle you might be able to mock it up with Vee blocks but you have to have some way of standardizing the lateral position. Where this can get interesting is when both chuck & arbor have runout & can act to cancel or exaggerate one another depending on how its assembled. Or the runout can be OK but the seat taper angle is out a bit & the chuck/arbor can seat a bit cocked depending on how you assemble. If it varies with each re-assembly this is a clue.

In terms of lateral tapping, personally I'd be careful there especially on a lightweight machine. Not healthy for bearings in case of spindle or bellmouthing/distorting the quill socket or knocking tailstock out of alignment... etc. Not worth beating your machine up over parts than aren't very true.

Personally I think this is why people have mixed chuck results. Some are good & some are not even same brand/model. Its bag of parts with looser tolerances. QC variation especially the jaws & scroll. If the celestial bodies align you have a winner. Or, the opposite. Then Tom's dad gets it, LOL

Its good to have a reliable pin in the shop for this & similar applications. Something you know is true within tenths. Some of the bearing suppliers sell singles of what are roller bearing pins quite inexpensive. Then you don't have t second guess if the pin is eccentric or the holding device is out. Just to make life miserable, chuck can also vary by the diameter of what its gripping.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Thanks, Peter. Plenty of 'food for thought'.


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## Degen (Mar 8, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> Thanks for thse suggetions. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
> I can easily imagine what would have happened to me in Gr 10 shop class in 1960 if I had gotten near a chuck with a hammer.
> I guess you are talking about a situation where the chuck body is loose enough on the arbor that it could be moved, or the taper in the quill or tailstock is loose. I haven't seen that.
> I've convinced myself that in this case it's a faulty chuck since the arbor where it enters the chuck body has about 0.01 mm runout, the chuck body and a good carbide tool in the chuck both show >0.35mm runout. And the chuck and the arbor were both spotlessly clean (not even fingerprints) when they were mated with a twist, set with one solid-but-not-violent strike with aluminum padding (chuck jaws fully retracted). That chuck is not moving on the arbor.


Its not about being loose but bending (tweaking) the arbour back to true.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

I posted this in the 'economical tools' thread where there was some discussion about the quality of Chinese tools and (the level of) buyer protection when dealing with Aliexpress and banggood.
I don't make a habit of double-posting, but here goes:
Banggood chuck update....I contacted banggood, explained the excessive runout problem with the chuck, and uploaded pictures of the runout indicated on the DTI. It's impossible to upload a video to banggood, so I couldn't send the 30 second video I'd recorded. Then, no response for 4 days till this morning when I get an email that they will close the 'Ticket' since they haven't heard from me in3 days! So I go to banggood and they want: photos of the original parcel wrapper (which is gone) and a Youtube video! So, an hour plus of faffing around and I have the video uploaded to YouTube and sent banggood the link.





This matches with what I've read online about banggood - lots of promises but when it comes to a real problem they set enough obstacles in the way so that the buyer just gives up. I didn't believe the 'Buyer Protection' BS anyway... 

@Degen I may give the hammer treatment a try.


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## Degen (Mar 10, 2022)

Looking at your video it looks like your shaft (arbour) is a touch bent, this is more common than you think (and even happens easy enough during regular use). Tap on the side that is high and bring it in slowly.

The more you have to do this the weaker and easier it goes out of line.

Good luck.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> Looking at your video it looks like your shaft (arbour) is a touch bent


Thanks.
Perhaps we are using different terms for what's visible in the video, but I can't see the arbor there. I think of the arbor as that piece of metal with a Morse taper and a Jacobs or similar taper to match the chuck on the thick end. I put the DTI on the arbor where it enters the chuck and there's practically zero runout.
If you are talking about the drill shank in the chuck- wher the DTI is touching, it was suggested that it could be bent. I re-tested with some solid carbide USA made 1/2" router bits and got the same runout.. >0.35 mm.
*It IS possible that I mounted the chuck 'crooked' on the arbor* though it certainly seemed to seat very cleanly. So it's operator error on my part or poor QC at the Chinese factory as the two main possibilities, I think.


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## Darren (Mar 10, 2022)

My banggood er40 r8 chuck fell off my mill table and landed on my rubber mat. It bent so bad it won't go in the spindle. LOL just junk. It is dead soft so i guess i'll turn it down to 3/4" shank or something and buy a better unit with r8 for the mill.


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## PeterT (Mar 10, 2022)

Just for interest, how does runout on the body compare to the shank in terms of deflection & clock position?
Have you separated the arbor from the chuck & measured runout of it independently yet?


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Just for interest, how does runout on the body compare to the shank in terms of deflection & clock position?
> Have you separated the arbor from the chuck & measured runout of it independently yet?


Peter- Thanks for your interest in this saga! 

I mentioned this in post #11 earlier in the thread:
_I've convinced myself that in this case it's a faulty chuck since the arbor where it enters the chuck body has about 0.01 mm runout, the chuck body and a good carbide tool in the chuck both show >0.35mm runout._

I have no idea how to separate the chuck from the arbor at this point. My reading on the internet (!) seemed to indicate that drilling through the bottom of the chuck and driving the arbor off was the only way to separate them if they were properly mated together.


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## PeterT (Mar 10, 2022)

Depending on the setup, wedges are preferred for chuck/arbor separation. I know, more $$. Tapping around on the periphery is also done but potentially at the risk of bending the arbor or peeing the bearings. So that leaves heat or press? Chucks also vary in how they are retained. Assuming you don't have a clamping collar style. Maybe others can chime in if the end of arbor can be knocked out with a rod inside jaws, or is the chuck body always solid in there.


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## YYCHM (Mar 10, 2022)

PeterT said:


> or is the chuck body always solid in there.



I have two BB chucks where the arbor hole passes right thru (i.e. not blind).  I can remove the arbors with a punch.

Jacobs require the wedges.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

PeterT said:


> . Maybe others can chime in if the end of arbor can be knocked out with a rod inside jaws, or is the chuck body always solid in there.





YYCHM said:


> I have two BB chucks where the arbor hole passes right thru (i.e. not blind).  I can remove arbors with a punch.


I feel foolish - I presumed the chuck had a solid bottom, but it doesn't. Thanks, guys!





That was easy! 

So the next step is to put something in the chuck jaws, grab that in the lathe chuck,  and hand rotate it and put the DTI inside the chuck taper where the arbor goes?


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## YYCHM (Mar 10, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> I feel foolish - I presumed the chuck had a solid bottom, but it doesn't. Thanks, guys!
> 
> View attachment 21841
> That was easy!
> ...



So now you can put the arbor between centers and see if that tells you anything......  Maybe the MT taper isn't concentric with the chuck taper or the arbor is bent.


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## PeterT (Mar 10, 2022)

Test-1: Position the taper segment in a Vee block. You probably need to backstop the end to prevent fore-aft movement. Anyways now you can position a DTI ball on the chuck taper & see what's going on runout wise, slowly rotating. If deviated mark the arbor with Sharpie & see if that correlates to wear chuck is running out.

Test-2: (no picture) grip the most accurate dowel pin you have in chuck jaws. Now lay that extended pin in Vee block groove. Measure the seat of chuck taper as you rotate. (might take a few extra hands to put a bit of contact pressure on the Vee, but this method eliminates anything spindle related.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

Thanks. Those are on the ToDo list.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

I think this one is solved.
I tested the runout on the chuck body and socket, and the arbor separately and they were both 'OK' 0.07mm (about 0.003")or less runout.
Mated them together and the 0.35mm runout was back, but wait....that didn't feel tight.....No matter how much I 'wrung' them together I could still feel looseness.
Just to confirm that I wasn't hallucinating, I put some Prussian Blue on the arbor and 'mated' it with the chuck socket.
It's not easy to see but the Blue at the wide end of the arbor isn't 'scrubbed off', and that's where it felt loose, too.




So while I was pondering this, and staring at the chuck and arbor I noticed: Chuck B16, Arbor MT2-JT33
I hadn't realized that B16 is actually a taper (it's the same as Morse 2); I'd thought that it was a chuck size designation of some sort. Definitely different than Jacobs JT33.
So arbor and chuck don't mate properly.

It seems to me that a new arbor - MT2-B16 should fix the problem. Does this make sense?


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

Tapers:


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

So I go to amazon to see about a replacement arbor and find:





I give up!!  I'm going to take the dog for a walk.


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## PeterT (Mar 10, 2022)

I think you are on the right track. This is exactly what I was referring to about the chuck cocking up on the arbor (mismatched taper). It will find a home & feel tight, but its not co-axial = runout
It might be a case of sloppy or erroneous product labelling. If you have a means of mounting the arbor you could even validate the published angle.
Assuming the chuck is correct it should be a matter of finding the corresponding arbor.

I noticed this one had a similar review. Maybe coincidental, hmmmm...





						JRL MT2 to B16 Drill Chuck Connecting Shaft Rod Morse Taper Shank Arbor Adapter with Tang End Morse Taper 2 B16 Arbor Industrial : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

JRL MT2 to B16 Drill Chuck Connecting Shaft Rod Morse Taper Shank Arbor Adapter with Tang End Morse Taper 2 B16 Arbor Industrial : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

And, since B16 is the same as the small end of MT2, I reversed the arbor and put the MT2 end into the B16 chuck socket - it mated securely and the chuck/arbor combo now had 0.07mm runout.

I think a new arbor definitely will fix this. Thanks for all the help you folks provided.


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## YYCHM (Mar 11, 2022)

Do I understand this correctly?  Banggood shipped you a chuck with the wrong arbor installed?


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Do I understand this correctly?  Banggood shipped you a chuck with the wrong arbor installed?


Not installed, but the Banggood seller put the B16 taper chuck and the JT33 taper arbor in the same little box, so -trusting soul that I am - I just cleaned off the oil and mated them together. They 'seemed to fit' and I didn't think any further about it. I figured the B16 was the chuck capacity (5/8" ~ 16mm) and the JT33 marked on the arbor was the taper on both the arbor and chuck.
It wasn't until you mentioned driving out the arbor through the open back of the chuck ("Gee, that was pretty easy, I thought...") that I started really paying attention to those tapers!
I guess it's nice to still be in the "live and learn" stage even at my advanced age??


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 22, 2022)

A quick follow-up to let you know what happened with the Banggood Customer 'Service'....




I complained a.k.a. 'Opened a ticket' to Banggood and provided description of the problem and some pics of the runout and the chuck. Immediate response (automatic via software as all the responses were....)."Please provide proof." "Pictures" "Please upload video to YouTube and provide a link".(You can't upload videos to banggood)
So I sent a couple more pictures and managed to ujpload a short video to Youtube.
Banggood: "Please provide more proof." "Pictures of original packaging and wrapping on parcel"
I replied with a message - packaging was gone, I'd provided enough proof, etc...
Banggood: "7 days with no response. Ticket CLOSED"

I wasn't surprised. All those purchases from China are a gamble. Generally if something just never arrives I get a refund. On quality issues, it's just a 'what did you expect?' sort of situation. I don't spend more than I can afford to lose without getting upset.
Banggood did allow my negative review to appear on the product page, so that's more than a lot of sites allow.


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## PeterT (Mar 22, 2022)

Well that kind of blows. They seemed more adamant about proving that the item originated from them - packaging, parcel particulars etc. - vs the quality issue. One would think if they had on record an item recently purchased & confirmation of shipment arrived & pictures looks like the item... then its 99.9% probably the item. Would be interesting if you just happened to have kept packaging would just proceed to the next item on trivia list just to wear you down & run out the clock. I've only had a few issues on AliExpress & it was painless refund, no issues at all. Maybe lucky so far.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Mar 22, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Would be interesting if you just happened to have kept packaging would just proceed to the next item on trivia list just to wear you down & run out the clock.


That's what I assumed is the StandardOperatingProcedure at Banggood Customer Service, and I read a bunch of expeeriences on the web that indicated I'm not the first person to experience this. So - heads up, readers!! If this would really really irritate you, don't shop on Banggood.


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