# RF30 Basement Install



## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

Looking to borrow an engine hoist for a few days...

Preferably something that can be disassembled and setup in a basement.  Not sure what dates at the moment but probably within the next two weeks.  I'm in the NE but willing to pickup anywhere in the Calgary local.

Thanks,

Craig


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## Johnwa (May 30, 2020)

Mines available. The wheeled frame is the heaviest. I think it would take two people to get it up and down, The other parts would only take one person. 


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

Thanks John!

Question - How well do those things roll on gravel?

Craig


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## Johnwa (May 30, 2020)

They don’t.


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## David_R8 (May 30, 2020)

Craig, my driveway is gravel and at the time I didn't have a hoist so I disassembled the mill to get it out of the back of my Canyon. 
Looking back, if I had a hoist I could have probably lifted it out if the head was lowered all the way and it was rigged with minimal slack in the webbing. 

Because it was disassembled when I put on the table using my hoist I dropped a loop of chain through the opening in the head and stuck a bar through the bottom of the loop and then put tension on it. Worked like a charm.
There may be pictures somewhere here or on H-M.


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> They don’t.



Well that answered that LOL.

How wide is the base approx.?

Craig


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## Johnwa (May 30, 2020)

The bottom of the frame is about 30”x20”. The support legs spread out, at the ends they are about 4 to 5 feet apart. 


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## Dabbler (May 30, 2020)

I lay down 3/4" junk plywood on my gravel.  works just fine that way.  There are some pictures of this in the '3 tons' thread.


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## RobinHood (May 30, 2020)

Hi Craig,

I have about 20 pieces of 3/4 plywood cut into 2’x8’ sections (4x8 sheet cut in half). You can borrow as many as you think you need to put down onto the gravel to make the hoist roll easier.


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Hi Craig,
> 
> I have about 20 pieces of 3/4 plywood cut into 2’x8’ sections (4x8 sheet cut in half). You can borrow as many as you think you need to put down onto the gravel to make the hoist roll easier.



Great!  Thanks.


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## Tom O (May 30, 2020)

I have two if you need one.


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

Tom O said:


> I have two if you need one.



PM sent


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## Dabbler (May 30, 2020)

I have two also that I can lend.


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> I have two also that I can lend.



PM sent


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## kevin.decelles (May 30, 2020)

Ok, I’ll bite, what are you moving/lifting


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## David_R8 (May 31, 2020)

kevin.decelles said:


> Ok, I’ll bite, what are you moving/lifting
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



With any luck @YYCHobbyMachinist has found a new mill. 


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## YYCHM (May 31, 2020)

So,  with little warning Bill @thriller007 showed up at my house with this this morning.  We struck a deal and managed to scooch the machine from his truck to mine.  Now I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to break it down to move it into my shed and ultimately my basement.

I'm really pleased


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## Tom O (May 31, 2020)

That will be a nice addition for your shop!


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## DPittman (May 31, 2020)

oh man that looks fun ( maybe not the moving but the new machine)  we will expect pictures and observations.


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## Johnwa (May 31, 2020)

Some disassembly required!


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## Brent H (May 31, 2020)

Woo Hoo!!! Now we get @Dabbler 2.0 - aka reversing the process of moving big stuff from ground level to basement!!

Congrats on a new machine Craig!!!!


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## Tom O (May 31, 2020)

When I get home I'll show how my son and I got the mill, lathe, and shaper into the basement with a princess auto winch with 2X6 wooden frame.


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## YYCHM (May 31, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Woo Hoo!!! Now we get @Dabbler 2.0 - aka reversing the process of moving big stuff from ground level to basement!!
> 
> Congrats on a new machine Craig!!!!



This whole thing went down faster than that Ont Utilathe parts machine LOL.  @thriller007 was taking about coming to Calgary Thurs and then showed up this morning with the mill in his truck.  One look and I was sold.  Now the fun begins, it's heavier than it looks and still in the bed of my truck.  I managed to get the 60 lb motor off (2 HP yahooo) before it started raining. Tomorrow the table comes off and maybe the head if I can figure out how it comes off.  Next door neighbour has an engine hoist, so maybe use that to get the head, base and column off the truck?


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## kevin.decelles (May 31, 2020)

Need details

Make/model
Age
Features



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## YYCHM (May 31, 2020)

kevin.decelles said:


> Need details
> 
> Make/model
> Age
> ...



House of Tools branded RF30 clone purchased in the 90's.  Just your plain jane R8 spindle manual mill, no tooling or extras.


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## Tom O (May 31, 2020)

This is what we used putting machines into the basement it  uses the door frames for support.



The top support is high enough for the winch cable to clear the stairs.
How we used it is on the landing we placed a sheet of plywood 8 feet long and built a box out of 2X6 to support the ply about 3 stairs down, the machine is wheeled/placed on the ply ( near center of gravity ) and the wooden structure is put in place and hooked up to the winch and machine. Then take up the slack and remove the box support and it will easily tip after that just crank it down.


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## YYCHM (May 31, 2020)

Tom O said:


> This is what we used putting machines into the basement it  uses the door frames for support.
> The top support is high enough for the winch cable to clear the stairs.
> How we used it is on the landing we placed a sheet of plywood 8 feet long and built a box out of 2X6 to support the ply about 3 stairs down, the machine is wheeled/placed on the ply ( near center of gravity ) and the wooden structure is put in place and hooked up to the winch and machine. Then take up the slack and remove the box support and it will easily tip after that just crank it down.



I'm not following this at all  Bridge out the top of the stair well with 8' of plywood then remove the bridge support, tip the bridge down and then what?


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## Tom O (May 31, 2020)

As you crank it out it slides down the stairs on the plywood the structure is not sitting on the plywood letting it rotate and slide.


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## historicalarms (Jun 1, 2020)

Ive never had to put my mill anywhere inaccessible without a breakdown but have had it apart for servicing. I think  it will break down to 6 pieces that can be put in your basement with just an ordinary warehouse hand truck. 
    After servicing the quill in mine a couple weeks ago, I would even remove that from the head to lighten it up a bit. Quill & attaching components might be 20 lbs or so combined and its really a 20 minute job to re-install. 
    the head removes from the column just by taking that black cover off the column top, now lift the head & gearing for adjustment off all at the same time, just sling it so it lifts straight up without binding. 

    the only piece that will be awkward or difficult will be the head because of its shape, stripped ,its probably not as heavy as the base. 

   good luck Craig...wish I was closer to give you a hand.


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## YYCHM (Jun 1, 2020)

Yikes..... what have I gotten myself into here






Took me all day just to get it to this state.  The table alone weights 83 lbs.  I was too pooped to weight the base but it took two of us to lift it off the truck.  I should be able to separate the column from the head but that parts seems to be fighting me.  Once separated those two pieces should be manageable (I think?).  As it stands the head and column are still in the bed of the truck, the rest of it (which doesn't amount to much) is in the shed. 

Craig


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 1, 2020)

Deep breathe , just ask yourself, WWDD? (What would @Dabbler do?)

He’d plan the $$”@& out of a 10 hour day , with every stage planned out and choreographed ...... complete with pictures , some of which you find yourself in because he glamours you like a vampire to help out (and because he’s always ready to help out himself)

Seriously, how do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time

How much do you estimate the final piece weighs ?




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## YYCHM (Jun 1, 2020)

kevin.decelles said:


> Deep breathe , just ask yourself, WWDD? (What would @Dabbler do?)
> 
> He’d plan the $$”@& out of a 10 hour day , with every stage planned out and choreographed ...... complete with pictures , some of which you find yourself in because he glamours you like a vampire to help out (and because he’s always ready to help put himself)
> 
> ...



What's left would probably take 3 strapping men to lift off the truck and would be a gong show getting down the basement stairs.  I can move it around and stand it up but that's about it.  Separating the column from the head is a must do, and I think it's just 10 year old grease that's fighting me right now.

But ya, one nibble at a time.  Get her off the truck into the shed, then one piece at a time into the basement. THEN deal with the biggest problem of all.  How to get her assembled and onto a table.

I think my summer is booked now LOL.


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## RobinHood (Jun 1, 2020)

Good job so far Craig.

When you say “shed” you mean as in a garage type with roof trusses? If yes, back your truck into it and use a block&tackle attached to a truss(es) to get it off the truck and onto the floor. Or is this where you had the engine hoist in mind? - would work fine I‘d guess.

Once you have the pieces in your basement, you could again use the B&T attached to floor joists to help you set the machine on a table/stand.


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## Dabbler (Jun 1, 2020)

WWDD? An engine hoist, to a moving dolly to the top of the stairs.  a stout rope and plywood on the stairs.  slide it down with the rope wrapped around a fence post as a safety.

Once down stairs, what @RobinHood said.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 1, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> WWDD? An engine hoist, to a moving dolly to the top of the stairs.  a stout rope and plywood on the stairs.  slide it down with the rope wrapped around a fence post as a safety.
> 
> Once down stairs, what @RobinHood said.


If no fence post, use the pickups trailer hitch around a ball or pintle


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## YYCHM (Jun 1, 2020)

Shed and back gate.  Note the lack of garage  It would spoil her view of the park don't ya know.






Back door landing.






The 12 dreaded steps






And ya, I think I'm going have to do the floor joist and B&T thing here.


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## Janger (Jun 1, 2020)

WWDD! ha lol.  glad you got a mill Craig.


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## thriller007 (Jun 1, 2020)

Wow things are happening fast!!!


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## YYCHM (Jun 1, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Wow things are happening fast!!!



Not fast enough as far as I'm concerned LOL.


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## Tom O (Jun 1, 2020)

The 12 dreaded steps!
That is why I built that structure as a anchor for the winch in the pic the door is shut but it actually fits in the doorframe the winch goes on the top 2x6.


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## historicalarms (Jun 2, 2020)

Darn it Craig I wish I would have thought of this before you started to tear her down...you could have driven to my place again and using all my lifting capabilities here, in an hour we could have had that thing in 6 manageable pieces and back in your truck...I think I have an old warehouse hand truck here that I would have donated to your cause.

    Just a thought here over the reticence of the column to slide out of the head...the orientation it is laying at will have pressure on the column locking handle & roller on the right hand side. The way they work, this will lock the column to the head the same as if it is locked in use. there can be no weight on the lock handle.


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

I don’t know the height of your truck bed but maybe the easiest way is to make a ramp and strap the head to a four wheel dolly and lower it down the ramp.

I fear that unless the column is upright you won’t be able to take the head off. 
Unless you put it upside down maybe?


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

8:08 AM Success!!!!!






I managed to separate the column (98 lbs) from the head (60-70 lbs appox I think).  With it on it's side, crank side up, and column supported I managed to jack the column off the head using the rack and head crank.  That rack arrangement is kind of strange, it floats beside the column and leverages off a ring at the base of the column.  In order to get it all the way off, I had to place a foot long  piece of aluminum round bar between the ring and the bottom edge of the rack.  Once the top of the column was past the pinion gear it was just a matter of giving the column a good yank and off she came.   I'm thinking the only way to re-unite them now is stand the column up on the upside down head.






Everything is in the shed now.  Tomorrow I have some help available so we will see what we can move into the basement.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

Awesome work Craig!!!
Did you find any shims under the column?


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

Anyone know how the spindle pully comes off one of these machines?  I want to remove the belt cover if possible.

Thanks,

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Anyone know how the spindle pully comes off one of these machines?  I want to remove the belt cover if possible.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Craig


It's on a taper, I don't know the size but a pulley puller makes quick work of it.


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Awesome work Craig!!!
> Did you find any shims under the column?



No shims that I could see.


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> No shims that I could see.


That should help ensure it is in tram when it's all reassembled but I'd check it to be sure.
There were shims under the column on mine. I replaced them and had to add more to get it right but now it's very close to .0001 all the way around.


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## Hruul (Jun 2, 2020)

Wow!!, Congrats Craig on the new mill.  Good luck getting it to the basement.  Let us know how it goes.


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> It's on a taper, I don't know the size but a pulley puller makes quick work of it.



I put a gear puller on it.  She's not budging.


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I put a gear puller on it.  She's not budging.


It's likely never come off before so it make take a bit. I had to heat the pulley with propane torch if I recall correctly.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I put a gear puller on it.  She's not budging.


Use a bigger impact gun while tapping the pulley with a large hammer


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> It's likely never come off before so it make take a bit. I had to heat the pulley with propane torch if I recall correctly.


Can you shoot a picture of the top of the pulley?


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Can you shoot a picture of the top of the pulley?


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

Ok looks just like mine.
Is the pulley cast iron or aluminum?

I would see if you can get some Kroil or WD40 down between the spindle and the pulley.
Then hit the top sheave of the pulley with some heat.
It’s hollow so there’s little point in heating the lower sheaves.

Mine was on good and tight so it might take a bit of time.


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Ok looks just like mine.
> Is the pulley cast iron or aluminum?
> 
> I would see if you can get some Kroil or WD40 down between the spindle and the pulley.
> ...



Cast iron/steel, not aluminum.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 2, 2020)

What kind of puller did you use?


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> What kind of puller did you use?



Jury rigged 2 leg puller.  Tomorrow I'll get a bigger 3 leg puller.


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

The first time I pulled off the pulley I used a big puller that I ‘rented’ from Canadian Tire. 
(Here they have a program where you buy the tool, use it and bring it back for a full refund. Seriously)


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## Chicken lights (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Jury rigged 2 leg puller.  Tomorrow I'll get a bigger 3 leg puller.






If you can find one, that style works great for what you’re trying to do. I made that up ten or more years ago


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> The first time I pulled off the pulley I used a big puller that I ‘rented’ from Canadian Tire.
> (Here they have a program where you buy the tool, use it and bring it back for a full refund. Seriously)



How big was big?


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## RobinHood (Jun 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> The first time I pulled off the pulley I used a big puller that I ‘rented’ from Canadian Tire.
> (Here they have a program where you buy the tool, use it and bring it back for a full refund. Seriously)



PartSource does the same here in Calgary (at least they did when I did front-end work on my truck a few years ago). They were good quality pullers...


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> How big was big?



I think 8”


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## Johnwa (Jun 2, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> PartSource does the same here in Calgary (at least they did when I did front-end work on my truck a few years ago). They were good quality pullers...


Both Parts Source and Canadian tire do it In Calgary.  Funny thing, the deposit CT charged me was the retail price but they didn’t  charge GST.  If I’d kept the tool it would have been cheaper than actually buying it.


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## YYCHM (Jun 2, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Both Parts Source and Canadian tire do it In Calgary.  Funny thing, the deposit CT charged me was the retail price but they didn’t  charge GST.  If I’d kept the tool it would have been cheaper than actually buying it.



I didn't know CT did this?  Is this something you have to ask to do at Customer Service?


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## David_R8 (Jun 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I didn't know CT did this? Is this something you have to ask to do at Customer Service?



I went to the auto parts desk. 
I got a brand new puller. Was $117 plus tax. I was given a three day grace period to return it. I didn’t know the program existed but I’m darn sure I’ll use it again. 


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I didn't know CT did this?  Is this something you have to ask to do at Customer Service?


It’s at the auto parts desk.  They have a large sheet that shows everything they loan out.  It looked like the same sheet that Parts Source had.


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## historicalarms (Jun 3, 2020)

Craig, in reference to your photo in post 54, do not use the center drill end of the quill for a centering pressure point for the pullers. this will put all the pressure you use to remove the pulley on one gear tooth in the quill and they aren't very substantial or robust...very good possibility to brake a tooth out of one of the most important parts of the whole machine. 
   Center drill a small piece of flat bar to place over the threaded end of the pulley shaft would be my way to go.


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Craig, in reference to your photo in post 54, do not use the center drill end of the quill for a centering pressure point for the pullers. this will put all the pressure you use to remove the pulley on one gear tooth in the quill and they aren't very substantial or robust...very good possibility to brake a tooth out of one of the most important parts of the whole machine.
> Center drill a small piece of flat bar to place over the threaded end of the pulley shaft would be my way to go.


I avoided this problem by locking the quill which took the pressure off the quill gear.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Craig, in reference to your photo in post 54, do not use the center drill end of the quill for a centering pressure point for the pullers. this will put all the pressure you use to remove the pulley on one gear tooth in the quill and they aren't very substantial or robust...very good possibility to brake a tooth out of one of the most important parts of the whole machine.
> Center drill a small piece of flat bar to place over the threaded end of the pulley shaft would be my way to go.



Oh wow, thanks for the heads up Doug!  So leverage off the spindle taper sleeve (threaded part) not the spindle shaft (part where the draw bar sits in) correct?

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I avoided this problem by locking the quill which took the pressure off the quill gear.



How do you lock the quill?


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> How do you lock the quill?


The handle on the left side side of the head toward the front is the quill lock.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> The handle on the left side side of the head toward the front is the quill lock.



The silver angled one?  This instruction manual is next to useless.  How do you lock the spindle from turning?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The silver angled one?  This instruction manual is next to useless.  How do you lock the spindle from turning?
> 
> Craig


Yup that's the one. 
I don't believe there is a spindle rotation lock. 
I've attached the manual for my mill. I expect much of it will apply.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Got her off......






$15 PA surplus puller did the trick.  That and a dose of Nut Cracker last night.






Didn't even have to apply heat.  At first it wasn't moving so I put some tension on it and came in the house to check emails and this thread when I went back out it had popped off all on it's own.






Yea, now I can ditch that belt cover.  That pulley weights 15 lbs.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I've attached the manual for my mill. I expect much of it will apply.



Thanks, that's a better manual than the one I have been looking at.


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Got her off......
> 
> View attachment 9458
> 
> ...


I had the cover off of mine and I was very aware and somewhat nervous about the spinning belt just inches from my head. 
Since I completing the VFD conversion I have put it back on.  Food for thought.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I had the cover off of mine and I was very aware and somewhat nervous about the spinning belt just inches from my head.
> Since I completing the VFD conversion I have put it back on.  Food for thought.



I'll put her back on if I have the head room in the basement.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Well this head sure looks innocent enough with the belt cover removed 

Unfortunately the scale is telling me 90 lbs  65 lbs under the spindle and 25 lbs under the motor end.


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

I pulled the spindle out of mine and it's a solid 10-12 lbs.
It's an easy job and it might make the difference.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

This motor states 115/230 VOLT, 22/11 AMP.  Can it be plugged into either 115 or 220 without some sort of internal wiring change? Just change the power cord plug style?  There is no internal wiring template just the one in the image.

Thanks,

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

It will need a wiring change.  There should be a diagram inside the junction box.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> It will need a wiring change.  There should be a diagram inside the junction box.



And so there is.

Thank You John!


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> It will need a wiring change.  There should be a diagram inside the junction box.



Well of course there is a switch involved so the color coding coming out of the switch doesn't match that at the plug end.











So now the junction box connections don't make sense.






Would that 5 6 exchange at the bottom of wiring diagram indicate all's I need to do is swap 5 and 6?

Craig


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## Brent H (Jun 3, 2020)

You are going for 220 or 110?


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Brent H said:


> You are going for 220 or 110?



110 it's currently wired for 220.


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

Does that switch have a forward and reverse?


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Does that switch have a forward and reverse?



Forward, Stop, Reverse.


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

It might be easier to rewire your house! Is there a dryer plug close by?

From the diagram and pictures, 3 and 4 are connected together.  To go to 120v. 1, 3 and 5 are connected together as are 2, 4 and 6.  I don’t know whether or not the switch affects this.

in any case for 120v, 1 pole of the switch should be switching the hot line.  The other two poles will swap how the start winding is connected.

With 240v both lines are hot and ideally they both should be switched but I think it would take a 4 pole switch to do that.

Is there any further info in the manual?


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## RobinHood (Jun 3, 2020)

I believe the  5/6 swap is the FWD/REV INSIDE the motor.

so if you select your SWITCH to FWD and the mill actually runs backwards, change the 5/6 position inside the junction box to make the mill quill also run FWD.


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

The motor is rated at 22 amps on 120. So a regular 15 amp circuit won’t be enough. You will need a 30 amp circuit, special plugs and receptacles.


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## RobinHood (Jun 3, 2020)

If you are going to run the mill on 115V (as you plan) beware that most outlets can only handle 15A. Unless you are on a dedicated 20A outlet.

@Johnwa beat me to it....


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Is there any further info in the manual?



Manual?????  Surly you jest LOL.

What's coming out of the switch is red, white, yellow, green and black.  Black, white and green are going in.

The switch connects input black to output red and that's about all I have been able to figure out so far.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> If you are going to run the mill on 115V (as you plan) beware that most outlets can only handle 15A. Unless you are on a dedicated 20A outlet.
> 
> @Johnwa beat me to it....



I ran a 20A circuit to the back of my house for my welder.   There was no outlet out there at all before. Could I not change out the breaker to my shop outlets with a 20A breaker?


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## Johnwa (Jun 3, 2020)

The wire for the existing 120v/15amp receptacles is 14 gauge.  You need 12 gauge for 20 amp but that would be marginal.  You would need 10 gauge for 30 amp.  You would only need a double 15 amp breaker and 14 gauge if you wire for 240v.


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## Brent H (Jun 3, 2020)

I am confused by the motor plate - says motor is 1.5 Kw (2 Hp)

So 1500 watts/120 Volts is roughly 12.5 Amps.  So a 20 Amp circuit should be fine - but how the heck does a 2 Hp motor draw 22 amps? - 

also trying to figure out how switching 5
And 6 would reverse the motor ?


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Brent H said:


> I am confused by the motor plate - says motor is 1.5 Kw (2 Hp)
> 
> So 1500 watts/120 Volts is roughly 12.5 Amps.  So a 20 Amp circuit should be fine - but how the heck does a 2 Hp motor draw 22 amps? -
> 
> ...



By your logic a 15amp 120 volt circuit would suffice.  Have no idea what the "5 6 exchange" means, it's stated under both the 120 and 220 wiring list.


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## Hruul (Jun 3, 2020)

It might be start up current is 22A.  If it stays there too long it could trip the breaker.  Depending on the quality of the breaker and how many times its been tripped.  If they get tripped by overload lots, the overload starts to weaken and will trip easier.


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## Hruul (Jun 3, 2020)

15A breakers are only rated to handle 12A continuous.  All breakers that I have seen are rated for 80% of the maximum load stamped on them, unless they are 100% rated, but they would say that.  15A breakers are good to 15amps for a short time period but can do 12A continuously.  20A is good for 16 amps, 30 for 24 amps and so on.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> You would only need a double 15 amp breaker and 14 gauge if you wire for 240v.



Big Sigh..... I guess I'll need to go that way  At this point it's the least of my problems.


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## YYCHM (Jun 3, 2020)

Some thing is not adding up here.  I've been weighing everything I strip off this mill with a bathroom scale and came up with this so far.

Motor and mount               60 lbs
Table, screw and gib           83 lbs
Column                               98 lbs
Head (sans belt cover)        90 lbs (65 + 25)
Base                                    70 lbs (50 + 20)
Table Base                          30 lbs
Idler assy, Y screw, Y gib    20 lbs
Spindle Pulley                    15 lbs

466 lbs?  I'm not sure I believe that


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## RobinHood (Jun 3, 2020)

Brent H said:


> also trying to figure out how switching 5
> And 6 would reverse the motor ?



it changes the relationship between the start and run windings and thus the direction of rotation of the rotor.

in the following wiring diagrams for a single phase motor using the more common (at least in non-Asian motors) ”T” nomenclature, you can see that in order to change from CW to CCW rotation, only leads T5 and T8 are switched. It does not matter what the input voltage is or if it’s a single or two speed motor.


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## David_R8 (Jun 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Some thing is not adding up here. I've been weighing everything I strip off this mill with a bathroom scale and came up with this so far.
> 
> Motor and mount 60 lbs
> Table, screw and gib 83 lbs
> ...



That sounds about right. 
Rick Sparber puts it at 500 lbs. 
(His site has some pretty awesome resources for us mill/drill owners)

https://rick.sparber.org/Articles/MoveMill/MoveMill.htm


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## trlvn (Jun 4, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Big Sigh..... I guess I'll need to go that way  At this point it's the least of my problems.


Either way, you need a special circuit to power your new toy.  Either a very high amperage 120 volt line or a basic 240 volt circuit.  Twice the voltage means a 240 V line only needs to carry half the amperage.  Given that, the 240 V line does not need to be heavy as the 120 V would so it will be less expensive wire.  I recommend running a 240 volt line.  

Note that 240 volts is two "hot" lines; 120 volts uses one hot and one neutral.  Plus ground in either case.

At the machine, you appear to have a standard drum switch for forward/reverse/off.  It will have 2 wires in and out for power.  The other four connections are used to interchange two lines which cause your motor to start either clockwise or counter-clockwise.  Apparently they are labelled "5 and 6" on your motor.

Since it appears you are not all that comfortable with wiring, you need to get an electrician to check the connections.  There is quite sufficient power here to burn down your house and/or kill you.  If you want to save some money, do the work to pull the new wire yourself.  Check with the electrician to make sure you buy the right wire, beforehand.  When the rough-in is done, an electrician can hook up the new circuit in a matter of minutes.

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Good catch on the rated amp/kWs.  You do have to take power factor into account though.  Assuming a power factor of 80%, you need to divide your kW derived amperage by 0.8.  Full load current will be about 16 amps.  Starting current will be much higher but is short duration.  
I agree that the 5 and 6 swap are used to reverse rotation.  They must be wired out to the drum switch.

I think it will run  on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, but some house retiring is required in any case.  If there’s space in the breaker panel for a double 15 then I would do that.  No changes would then need to be done to the motor wiring.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Do I have space for a double 15?  Looks to me that I do.


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## Brent H (Jun 4, 2020)

You have lots of space Craig!   Should fit nicely below that red handle one!!


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Lots of room there!  Since you have to pull a wire anyway I’d go with a 240v circuit.  You don’t even have to run a neutral, so it would be 2 wire plus a ground 14 gauge.  I would run the neutral anyway, just in case.


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 4, 2020)

I wish I had that much room . My panel is full. I just had a quote done to upsize my panel 


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

kevin.decelles said:


> I wish I had that much room . My panel is full. I just had a quote done to upsize my panel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I ran a subpanel off mine when we renovated.  Now it’s full.  I think it was going to be about $2000 to get an electrician in to change the main panel.


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 4, 2020)

My primary shop has a subpanel, lots of room there, it is my auxiliary storage building that I want to run power to (second sub panel ) that requires more space in main. 

I want to move my wood working tools to my aux building



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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Lots of room there!  Since you have to pull a wire anyway I’d go with a 240v circuit.  You don’t even have to run a neutral, so it would be 2 wire plus a ground 14 gauge.  I would run the neutral anyway, just in case.



Yup, that's what I'm thinking.  I have some 12ga left from installing my 20A circuit.  I'll just mount a plug receptacle under the breaker box.


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## historicalarms (Jun 4, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I avoided this problem by locking the quill which took the pressure off the quill gear.



   This is redundant and late to the party as Craig has it off now...but... Yes locking the quill will take the pressure off the gearing but just transfers all the exerted force to the top bearing race of the head stock and that's not the best scenario neither, bearing races are very hard and have no ductile give to them, a high pressure force can very easily break a race ( or cage or cone for that matter as well).
     Using the threaded pulley shaft as a fulcrum makes sure that the removal pressure is all centraled between the pulley and that shaft...no pressure on any bearings , even the drive shaft bearings are removed from the equation.

Now for the Electrical thing, I had my mill wired for 110 at its first use place, It worked, but marginally. Start-up was always a "I think I can, I think I can" but sometimes it wouldn't and a trip to the breaker box was required. The size of tooling also ruled how many time I made the "breaker trip" ( the floor was well worn between the mill & box). Small endmills under 1/2 " would work fine until you added a bit of feed pressure to your cut, then a distinct slow down in rotational speed would be detected.. Anything larger than 1/2 " or fly-cutting was a very slow process. Even starting a large headed fly cutter would be a noticeable chore for the motor.
    When I moved it to where it is now, a 220 circuit was installed and it was like I had a new, different machine. 10 or 12 years use and not one trip to the breaker box...no need to guess which way I recommend you go Craig.


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## YotaBota (Jun 4, 2020)

Having physical room in the panel doesn't mean you have load room. Is the panel 200 amps? It looks like you have electric heat, in winter with all the heaters running will you have enough power to also run the mil? I think it may be prudent to get a load test/calculation done by an electrician. 220 volt would be the way to go.
As to the motor wiring, that might also be worth having a motor guy help out. Probably end up cheaper than buying new motors and such.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> Having physical room in the panel doesn't mean you have load room. Is the panel 200 amps?



At the top of the panel there are two breakers each labeled 100?  The house heating is gas.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Phase II complete...…. She's in the basement.  Phew!!!!






I can't believe that my son simply picked each piece up and walked them in the house and down the stairs

He figures with a couple of his buddies on hand they can get her up and standing on my bench.


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## Hruul (Jun 4, 2020)

The two breakers are likely tied together to give you a 100A-2P breaker as your main.  That is a standard house panel service size.


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Yes that is pretty standard.  Newer houses are often going 125 or even 200 amp.  I think it’s mostly to get more breaker spaces.  Of course that’s in Alberta where most of us use natural gas heating.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Where am I at here guys?






Is a 220 circuit a no go?


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

It’s definitely a go.
you just need a double breaker.    I think it needs to be installed in a double slot like 27 and 28.


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Maybe 26 and 27 looking at the internal pictures.


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

You want the two breakers to straddle the divider


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> You want the two breakers to straddle the divider



This should do it then.

https://www.lowes.ca/product/circui...lok-double-pole-15-amp-circuit-breaker-265777


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## Hruul (Jun 4, 2020)

Yup that will do it.


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2020)

whoa, craig -you do NOT use 2 breakers.   The breaker you linked to is the wrong breaker.  You use a double that is tied together with a bar.  It is irresponsible and out of code to use 2 breakers to do a 220V circuit without tyinbg them together.  

Better to buy a 'double' in the first place.  My offer stands to help you out with this.  Asp @PeterT about my work.


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## PeterT (Jun 4, 2020)

I know the feeling of wanting to get up & running but have an informed plan & do it right. Yes, take Dabbler up on electrical consultation. 
Lots of collective wisdom already contributed but I'm pretty sure you need to run a specific kind of wire from panel to new outlet if its to be mounted external to the wall vs internally?
And there are plugs and there are plugs.
And thus concludes my electrical knowledge which can be conveyed on the back of a stamp with a fat jiffy marker. LoL


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> Better to buy a 'double' in the first place.



Define what you mean by "double" so that I can source the correct breaker.  What I linked to is a STAB-LOK® *Double* Pole 15-Amp Circuit Breaker.  I'll get you involved before I purchase anything.  I'm still educating myself on how this all works.

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Dabblers correct, you need to tie the two poles together with something like this
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/schneider-electric-handle-tie-for-stab-lok-nc-breakers/1000408167


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

I took a look at the breakers in my garage panel.  They look exactly like the one you linked to.  They have a metal pin that ties them together.  The one you linked to may have it too.


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## Tom O (Jun 4, 2020)

The one he showed was a double throw switch not two singles.


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2020)

Th original Federal double breakers had a bar that snapped into the levers to bridge them.  Federal has been out of business for years - the new company that makes the breakers for Stab-loc panels didn't include the bar in the ones I bought recently.  They sell a permanently tied double breaker for this purpose.  I don't know why.  

There _should _be a tie bar in the package.


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2020)

@Tom O I can't tell from the picture, and I had to return one that wasn't tied - and they look nearly identical.  the telltale was the hole through both paddles with a SS tube tying them together. 

This may be an updated design.  the problem is that if they don't move together (which Craig can check in-store) he needs the Other one...  In my instance, I bought 3 breakers from the same lockup bin, looking essentially identical.  One of them was wrong.  No _obvious _outside physical difference. 

That's why I thought to mention it.


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Here’s a picture showing the connecting pin


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Appreciate all the help guys.   Learning lots here.

So I need one where you can't throw each poll independently, hence if one trips it will trip the other side mechanically. Does that sound like an accurate description?

@Johnwa your image clarifies it for me.  Thanks.


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist  That's right.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 4, 2020)

Just to throw my 0.02 cents in- you’ll have two hots, (likely red and black), a neutral (usually white) and a bare copper for a ground. It’ll be called 12-3 or 14-3 because nobody counts the ground


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Just to throw my 0.02 cents in- you’ll have two hots, (likely red and black), a neutral (usually white) and a bare copper for a ground. It’ll be called 12-3 or 14-3 because nobody counts the ground



I have 12-2 and 14-2?  There are only 3 wires going into the FWD-STOP-REV switch.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 4, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I have 12-2 and 14-2?  There are only 3 wires going into the FWD-STOP-REV switch.


You need 12-3 or 14-3, for 240v. That’s the way I’ve always done it, and always seen it done anyway. 

Usually the ground has its own screw to wrap around


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

For this motor you only need the two hot lines and ground.  The neutral is not used.  You therefore only need 14-2 plus the ground.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> For this motor you only need the two hot lines and ground.  The neutral is not used.  You therefore only need 14-2 plus the ground.



My 12-2 and 14-2 wire is two insulated wires and a bare ground.  Are we talking the same thing here?


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Yes


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## Chicken lights (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> For this motor you only need the two hot lines and ground.  The neutral is not used.  You therefore only need 14-2 plus the ground.


I’m talking to wire up the plug, Craig said he was going to run a line from the panel to a plug on the wall. That’s the way the sparky did the one in my shop, anyway


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> I’m talking to wire up the plug, Craig said he was going to run a line from the panel to a plug on the wall. That’s the way the sparky did the one in my shop, anyway


It depends.  If you need +/-120v then you have to run the neutral.   I know my welder plug had no provision for the neutral wire.  I did run the neutral into the box but it wasn’t connected to anything.  An electric dryer on the other hand needs 120v for the controls so it need the neutral.


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## Hruul (Jun 4, 2020)

Sorry Craig I took a quick look and thought that was the right breaker.  Missed that it did not have the tie in between.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Hruul said:


> Sorry Craig I took a quick look and thought that was the right breaker.  Missed that it did not have the tie in between.



No worries, now I know what to look for.  Makes me wonder why they would make one that wasn't tied together?


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I did run the neutral into the box but it wasn’t connected to anything



What kind of box did you use (metal or plastic) and did you simply ground the box to the receptacle ground connection?


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## Hruul (Jun 4, 2020)

Are you running the wiring surface or recessed in the wall?  That will change what type of jacket you need on the wire.  Surface needs to be armoured (AC90/BX) or in a conduit.  If it is recessed in the wall you can use the plastic/rubber jacket wire called NMD90.


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## Hruul (Jun 4, 2020)

You should tie the ground to the receptacle and to the box if the box is metal.


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## Johnwa (Jun 4, 2020)

I’ve been thinking about what @Chicken lights said.  Is there a plug on the end of your motor cord?  If there is and it has 4 prongs then the receptacle will have a spot for the neutral.


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## YYCHM (Jun 4, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I’ve been thinking about what @Chicken lights said.  Is there a plug on the end of your motor cord?  If there is and it has 4 prongs then the receptacle will have a spot for the neutral.








Three prong rated at 250V 20A.

From what I have been reading today. Ground is nothing more than a second path to neutral in case of a short (as in you will find the neutral bar is connected to ground bar in your breaker box, or as in my case which has no ground bar all the ground wires are connected to the breaker box), so for 220 you could run neutral to the plug ground connection and ground the receptacle box to the breaker box (which is connected to neutral) with the ground wire....OR.....Maybe I'm missed something here.


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## Dabbler (Jun 5, 2020)

You need 12/2 wire to wire this receptacle unless the run is over 50 feet (It is possible that the code has change to 25m/75 feet in 2012 - I don't have a copy handy), After that, you should use 10/2.  Be a good idea to premeasure anyway, copper costs $$$, and you shouldn't be short!


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## Johnwa (Jun 5, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist The matching receptacle for that plug doesn’t use the neutral so you need 2 wire.
If you’re using 15amp breakers 14/2 will work. You will need 12/2 if you use 20 amp breakers.  I think you said you had some 12/2, you could use it with either breaker.


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## YYCHM (Jun 5, 2020)

@Dabbler and @johnnielsen  stopped by today and sized things up for me.  Going to go 20amp 240V 12-2.  Will mount a steel plug box adjacent to the breaker panel.  The Mill will be sitting within 6' of the breaker box, so no long run stuff involved here.   They also provided some suggestions as to how to beef up the bench the mill will be sitting on.  Said my head room was sufficient so it was nice to get a second opinion on that.  I think I'm ready to proceed with the pre-install work now.

Thank you John and John I really appreciate your input.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jun 5, 2020)

Success.... 250 Volts, 20 Amps on the wall.  The panel didn't kill me and neither did the wife






Had the house power off for a whole 30 seconds.  Just have to tidy up now.






And this beast of a motor runs real nice.  Forward, Stop, Reverse.

What would you ever run a mill in reverse for?


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## Johnwa (Jun 5, 2020)

KMS has some left hand drill bits for drilling out broken bolts.  Also useful if you’re brave enough to use it for tapping.


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 5, 2020)

Tapping


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## PeterT (Jun 5, 2020)

Reverse is good on a boring head with RH tool mounted horizontally, larger ID's & such.

Just to be clear on tapping, the guys are talking about direct drive power tapping. Tap is held in collet or chuck, power in to tap, stop, reverse power out to withdraw. Done all the time but use precautions.

But using a tapping HEAD, spin is all one direction (conventional). Pull down on mill feed handle in drill press mode, clutch engages, forward tapping commences. Release pressure & the magic happens internally, tap direction is reversed.


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## David_R8 (Jun 5, 2020)

I was terrified to power tap with my RF until I did the 3-phase and VFD conversion. 
Now I have forward and reverse at 50 RPM. 


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## PeterT (Jun 5, 2020)

The thing I'm not so fond of is flicking the power on & off...having had a few intimate relationships with centrifugal switches & capacitors. But sufficiently low rpms give you longer motor run time & reaction time. Power tapping is ok for through holes if the material doesn't put up too much fight & properly ejecting chips etc. I get leery on blind holes, at least with any time invested in the part. Some people rely on the chuck or collet jaws spinning on the tap if it gets tight-ish which I guess is a poor mans clutch. But probably not that great for the jaw surfaces & probably not too far off breaking the tap.


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## Tom O (Jun 5, 2020)

Tapping collets are designed with a square tap drive built in so it can’t slip in the collet.
I have used reverse on my 601 to set a 0 position, running in reverse doesn’t cut and doesn’t harm the cutting edge it is the same principle as used by the Haas to measure the cutter Díaz.


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## YYCHM (Jun 7, 2020)

Spent the last two days beefing up the bench the beast will sit on.






Laid down a 3/4" sheet of plywood on top of the 3/4" thick table top planks and added mid span support legs both front and back.  If I can source a drip tray to put under the machine I think I'm about ready to set the beast up.

Unfortunately this is the only space I have available, so no other choice.  

If anyone has any doubts about this arrangement, please speak up.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

How do I get this gib in place without resorting to a hammer? 






That's as far as she goes without beating on it.  Only goes in one way.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> How do I get this gib in place without resorting to a hammer?
> 
> View attachment 9556
> 
> ...



Something is not right. 
Are the gib lock screw(s) backed all the way out?

Was the table difficult to move before it was disassembled?


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Something is not right.
> Are the gib lock screw(s) backed all the way out?
> 
> Was the table difficult to move before it was disassembled?



The gib lock screws are removed.  That gib just fell out when I cranked the table off.  The only thing different about this is it's all upside down.  I wanted to confirm what the realistic table travel was.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The gib lock screws are removed. That gib just fell out when I cranked the table off. The only thing different about this is it's all upside down. I wanted to confirm what the realistic table travel was.
> 
> Craig



I’d flip it over so the table surface is up then. 


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## Tom O (Jun 8, 2020)

Try flipping the gib end wise.


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I’d flip it over so the table surface is up then.



OK, I just turned it over.  No difference.


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

Tom O said:


> Try flipping the gib end wise.



I tried it every which way.  It appears to be tapered and only goes in one way.


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## David_R8 (Jun 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I tried it every which way. It appears to be tapered and only goes in one way.



That is correct, it will only go in one way.
The other thing to try is to move the table so that it’s not as far engaged on the ways and see if it will go all the way in. 
(Mine was difficult too but I can’t remember how I got it together...)


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## RobinHood (Jun 8, 2020)

Dumb question: is the saddle the correct way around? usually the gib side and the regular dovetail side are different.


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Dumb question: is the saddle the correct way around? usually the gib side and the regular dovetail side are different.



Not a dumb question at all, with me anything is possible. It's on the right way.  Table stop slot is facing the saddle side that has the gib lock screw holes.  I wonder if I bent the gib taking the table off?  Looks straight to me?


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## YotaBota (Jun 8, 2020)

Back away from the hammer!!!!!! If it doesn't go easy then like David said, something isn't right. 
Maybe another dumb question: does the gib go in from the other end of the table?


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## YYCHM (Jun 8, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> Back away from the hammer!!!!!! If it doesn't go easy then like David said, something isn't right.
> Maybe another dumb question: does the gib go in from the other end of the table?



Only goes in one way, I've tried every possible combination.  I don't know if it just needs a love tap or two or what. The last thing I need right now is to have the gib jammed in there to the point I have to back it out some how. 

The hammer is put away for now LOL.


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## Brent H (Jun 9, 2020)

Is there a slot on the gib that engages the adjusting screw to allow the screw to move the gib, or does the gib just get retained by the screw?

If the gib is as it should be, take it out and slide the the column piece up to the top of its travel and insert the gib at that point with some light machine oil.  You may need to wiggle things a bit.  It is also imperative that everything is clean- a chip or shaving in the works will mess things up.


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## RobinHood (Jun 9, 2020)

Hi Craig, as @Brent H suggests above, the drawing in the manual does show that there is an slot in the gib where the adjusting screw head engages.






it is that little dot on the gib (item 21)

in your picture, I can not see that slot facing up as it should since you have the table and saddle upside down on your bench (could just be the angle of the camera though...)





I think we should be able to see the slot about where the red circle is in order for the adjusting screw head to engage.


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## YYCHM (Jun 9, 2020)

Ah.... the slot in the gib, I wondered what that was for.  I bet you that's the problem.  I have to set the gib in the saddle and then slide the table on.

I'm OOT for a couple days, so won't get a chance to work on it again until Friday now.

Craig


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## historicalarms (Jun 9, 2020)

I've had the table off mine a couple of times and no problem re-assembling it. I would remove the table again and with a strong light, check for something lodged in either of the dovetails. Small clearances there so it wouldn't take much to bind up.
   As well, when you have it off, lay the gib up against the mating surface of either bed or table to check if you did actually bend it a smidge somehow, any daylight along the gib should be easy to spot.


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## David_R8 (Jun 9, 2020)

These are shots of the gibs in place on my RF clone. 
First is the X-axis, second the Y. 













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## YotaBota (Jun 9, 2020)

David - Are the gibs physically close enough in size and look to get them mixed up? I'm just showing off my newbie lack of knowledge.


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## David_R8 (Jun 9, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> David - Are the gibs physically close enough in size and look to get them mixed up?


Good question. They are very similar (if not identical) so they could probably be mixed up.
I think what's happened is that it's either upside down at a minimum, possibly the X gib is in the Y slot as it were.
(Kinda embarrassed that I didn't notice the lack of slot...)


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## YYCHM (Jun 9, 2020)

Got her on thanks.






Had to set the gib in the saddle with the screw in place and slide it on from this direction.  I didn't realize the gib sticks out like it does.

Man this thing is minty.


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## David_R8 (Jun 9, 2020)

Awesome Craig. Now to flip that sucker back over!


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## YYCHM (Jun 9, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> David - Are the gibs physically close enough in size and look to get them mixed up? I'm just showing off my newbie lack of knowledge.



Can't mix the gibs up, they are distinctly different lengths.


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## YotaBota (Jun 9, 2020)

And no hammers required, I see the gibs are different part numbers as well so is the length the only difference?


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## YYCHM (Jun 12, 2020)

Look what @CalgaryPT fabricated for me!






Free of charge no less

Thanks Pete!!!!!


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## David_R8 (Jun 12, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Look what @CalgaryPT fabricated for me!
> 
> View attachment 9601
> 
> ...



Nice!!!
Well done @CalgaryPT!


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## Hruul (Jun 12, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Look what @CalgaryPT fabricated for me!
> 
> View attachment 9601
> 
> ...


Looks Great!!


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## Dusty (Jun 12, 2020)

Way to go Pete, and this is just one of the numerous good things that happens on this list. Great people here! Bill


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## Brent H (Jun 12, 2020)

@CalgaryPT  Nice tray!!!!  - that will be very good to have Craig!!


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## Tom O (Jun 12, 2020)

That is a great looking tray.


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## Tom Fitzpatrick (Jun 13, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Preferably something that can be disassembled and setup in a basement.  Not sure what dates at the moment but probably within the next two weeks.  I'm in the NE but willing to pickup anywhere in the Calgary local.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Craig


I know it's too late, but I thought you might be interested in seeing my removable dolly for my engine hoist/crane that we use at our property.  The dolly was necessitated because, I agree, these things DO NOT move easily on rough terrain because of the tiny size of the steel wheels.  Used an old motorcycle frame (front half), two class 3 hitches, u-bolts, trailer tung jacks, John Deere riding mower wheels & tires and an old mower handle.  Works great and am able to tow it behind the quad to where I require it on the property and as well if nearby neighbours wish to use it.  I use the trailer jacks to lift the weight of the hoist off of the dolly and then simply pull the pins and remove the receiver for the front motorcycle section and rear section, then it sits on its own wheels and is ready to use as a hoist/crane.  Recently used it to lift two 750 lb. steel i-beams into their support location under a building on the property.


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 13, 2020)

Tom Fitzpatrick said:


> I know it's too late, but I thought you might be interested in seeing my removable dolly for my engine hoist/crane that we use at our property.


That's some clever farmer engineering you've pulled off there. Good job.


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 13, 2020)

Brilliant


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## YYCHM (Jun 13, 2020)

@David_R8 , @historicalarms  Any idea what this is for?











Been taking inventory of all the bits and pieces I stripped off the machine and can't for the life of me remember what this was for.  It's plastic.  Can't find anything like it in the two manuals I have.


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## David_R8 (Jun 13, 2020)

I have no idea what that is. 
The only place I can think of is maybe for the belt tension lock on the right side toward the back....maybe... 


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## historicalarms (Jun 13, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I have no idea what that is.
> The only place I can think of is maybe for the belt tension lock on the right side toward the back....maybe...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



   That would be my guess as well...If my mill had a handle like that, I cant remember it and it is long gone now but there is a hex head bolt on the motor belt tightener that looks to be that size.


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## YYCHM (Jun 13, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> That would be my guess as well...If my mill had a handle like that, I cant remember it and it is long gone now but there is a hex head bolt on the motor belt tightener that looks to be that size.



Not a one that I can find.

@thriller007 did you give this crank along with the wrenches you passed along?  See post 194.

Craig


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## historicalarms (Jun 14, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Not a one that I can find.
> 
> @thriller007 did you give this crank along with the wrenches you passed along?  See post 194.
> 
> Craig



  On my machine there is a motor mounting plate that pivots on a hinge with a locking rod that inserts into a hole in the machine head, there is a metric hex bolt that screws into the head casting (right side) that locks the motor from loosely pivoting on the hinge. This is the only place I can see a handle like that you photo'd would have an application.


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## thriller007 (Jun 14, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Not a one that I can find.
> 
> @thriller007 did you give this crank along with the wrenches you passed along?  See post 194.
> 
> Craig


Yes I did. It was in the back of my truck but not sure where it came from.


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## YYCHM (Jun 14, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Yes I did. It was in the back of my truck but not sure where it came from.



Ok, thanks.  That explains it.  It doesn't belong to this machine at all LOL.  If you discover you're missing one you know where it is.

@historicalarms I have the same motor pivot locking rod but the locking screw is a T handle arrangement.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

Finally Progress






Two thirty year old AMEs had no problem assembling the base, column and head.  

I misjudged the depth of this thing a little but she fits with  3.5" to spare behind the motor.

Phew..... no more pacing now wonder if I had gone too far.

Now to tackle the table.


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## David_R8 (Jun 15, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Finally Progress
> 
> View attachment 9630
> 
> ...



Now that’s an awesome thing to see! 
Well done [emoji106] 


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## Dabbler (Jun 15, 2020)

you got alot done today!!!  wow!!


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 15, 2020)

My back hurts thinking of that.


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> My back hurts thinking of that.



I didn't lift a finger LOL.  The two lads did it all for me, including mounting the motor 

They said it wasn't bad at all

Oh to be young again


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

Sweet...… I just ran her up at 120 RPM and then again at 1040 RPM.  It just hums and is as smooth as can be.  Reeks of power


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 15, 2020)

_Somebody's got a new  toy  critical capital investment........._


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## kevin.decelles (Jun 15, 2020)

Make room for the next one !




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## David_R8 (Jun 15, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Sweet...… I just ran her up at 120 RPM and then again at 1040 RPM. It just hums and is as smooth as can be. Reeks of power



Let the spending begin!
How can we be of assistance? [emoji48]


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Let the spending begin!
> How can we be of assistance? [emoji48]



Let's see...… I need a proper vise for sure, and 3-axis DRO is a given.  As it stands, I don't have the T-NUTS to mount anything on this thing right now LOL.  

Any one have two 1/2" T-NUTS and bolts to spare?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 15, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Let's see...… I need a proper vise for sure, and 3-axis DRO is a given. As it stands, I don't have the T-NUTS to mount anything on this thing right now LOL.
> 
> Any one have two 1/2" T-NUTS and bolts to spare?
> 
> Craig



I love my Glacern 4” vise. It’s the perfect size. 
Also really like the DRO that I have. I think you know the one. 
I bought the 1/2” clamp set from KMS but you can use cut down carriage bolts in a pinch. 


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

kevin.decelles said:


> Make room for the next one !



Room?  What room?  Do you see any room in there LOL.  This maxes me out.  Got stuff, here, there, everywhere that I don't know where I'm going to stash now.  I lost 3/4 of my work bench with this project.  SWMBO surveyed tonight and drew a chalk line on the floor labeled NOT TO BE CROSSED.


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## Dusty (Jun 15, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Let's see...… I need a proper vise for sure, and 3-axis DRO is a given.  As it stands, I don't have the T-NUTS to mount anything on this thing right now LOL.
> 
> Any one have two 1/2" T-NUTS and bolts to spare?
> 
> Craig



Congratulations, well done Craig. Speaking to buying a vise I recall telling and posting pictures to David_R8 on my Glacern 4" vise so I ditto his comments. They are well made and highly reliable without any fear of just throwing away your money. I made the removable speed handle for it and the rubber heal cover which helps keep swarf out.

Now what the heck are 30 year old AME's? I recognise the abbreviation as aircraft maintenance engineer? Bill


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## YYCHM (Jun 15, 2020)

Dusty said:


> Now what the heck are 30 year old AME's? I recognise the abbreviation as aircraft maintenance engineer? Bill



You got it Bill.  My son is a aircraft maintenance engineer (AME) with WestJet (Dream Liner Stuff) and his friend is a FO flying DHC-8-Q400 for WestJet Encore.  Both are CIC officers and man the reginal gliding center here.  My son is a qualified glider and tow pilot.


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## historicalarms (Jun 16, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Finally Progress
> 
> View attachment 9630
> 
> ...



    Nope YYC, before you tackle the table you need to put in a few "hold-down" bolts thru those 4 base holes...inperative before you have to pivot the head out of the way to mount anything on the table. The top heavy imbalance on these machines is considerable and with the table moved all the way one way or the other adds to it ( altho with the table extended and it does tip, the table will stop it from a total roll-over). 
it doesn't make any mention of this in my manual but the shop manager at House of Tools in Ed. was very emphatic that this was the #1 reason that they got machines back for repair was an overbalance tip-over.


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## YYCHM (Jun 16, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Nope YYC, before you tackle the table you need to put in a few "hold-down" bolts thru those 4 base holes...inperative before you have to pivot the head out of the way to mount anything on the table. The top heavy imbalance on these machines is considerable and with the table moved all the way one way or the other adds to it ( altho with the table extended and it does tip, the table will stop it from a total roll-over).
> it doesn't make any mention of this in my manual but the shop manager at House of Tools in Ed. was very emphatic that this was the #1 reason that they got machines back for repair was an overbalance tip-over.



Ok Doug.  I'll get some bolts on her before proceeding any further.  Thanks for the heads up.


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## thriller007 (Jun 16, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Let's see...… I need a proper vise for sure, and 3-axis DRO is a given.  As it stands, I don't have the T-NUTS to mount anything on this thing right now LOL.
> 
> Any one have two 1/2" T-NUTS and bolts to spare?
> 
> Craig



How about something like these Craig.


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## YYCHM (Jun 16, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> How about something like these Craig.



I'm good, thanks.   I can source some here in Calgary.


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## Tom O (Jun 16, 2020)

One thing to consider is T nuts won’t let the bolt thread all the way through protecting the table surface below.


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## RobinHood (Jun 16, 2020)

Tom O said:


> One thing to consider is T nuts won’t let the bolt thread all the way through protecting the table surface below.



Excellent point. On my shop made ones I used a center punch and “smashed” the last thread on the bottom to prevent the bolt from freely threading through.


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## Johnwa (Jun 16, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Excellent point. On my shop made ones I used a center punch and “smashed” the last thread on the bottom to prevent the bolt from freely threading through.



I have to do that with some of the commercial ones I have.  The last few threads are tight but not tight enough.


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## YYCHM (Jun 16, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I have to do that with some of the commercial ones I have.  The last few threads are tight but not tight enough.



Ya, me to.


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## Dabbler (Jun 17, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I have to do that with some of the commercial ones I have. The last few threads are tight but not tight enough.



I've had rework some;  not many.  Lots of commercial stuff needs tweaking.  Not tied to overseas or domestic.  Just poor quality control.


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## Tom O (Jun 17, 2020)

Still it is doable with a starting tap.


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## Tom O (Jun 17, 2020)

YYC I could lend you a set of hold down clamps if your in need!


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

Tom O said:


> YYC I could lend you a set of hold down clamps if your in need!



Thanks Tom, I'll keep that in mind.  I'm still not to the point of milling anything yet.


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

HELP!!!!! I'm in over my head and don't know what to do.






This is a far as the X-AXIS gib will seat by hand.  If I force it in any deeper it binds the table up so tight you can't move it by hand.  I have stoned the gib for well over two hours now with no real effect.  I inspected and felt all the mating surfaces and don't see or feel anything that might cause this.  I do get the impression that the gib is a little bowed over it's entire length.  Maybe it needs a tune up on a surface grinder?  DUNNO, I'm at a loss


----------



## PeterT (Jun 17, 2020)

Are there any lateral screws that are used to secure <lock> the table? If they are protruding in a bit then the gib wont slide. Pic of my RF-45 as example


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## PeterT (Jun 17, 2020)

This maybe?


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

PeterT said:


> This maybe?



All of the gib locks have been removed.


----------



## David_R8 (Jun 17, 2020)

My table (especially the Y-axis) is tight toward the extreme ends of the travel. Put the table in the middle of the travel and see if it's any better.


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> My table (especially the Y-axis) is tight toward the extreme ends of the travel. Put the table in the middle of the travel and see if it's any better.



Been there done that, it's worse

I can get the gib in all the way in if I do this, but, as you can imagine most of the gib is just flapping in breeze in this configuration.











When I attempt to push the table back to center she jams up tight about 1/3 of the way and I think the only way I could get her to move is to install the lead screw.


----------



## David_R8 (Jun 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Been there done that, it's worse
> 
> I can get the gib in all the way in if I do this, but, as you can imagine most of the gib is just flapping in breeze in this configuration.
> 
> ...


Take the gib out, slide the table to the middle of the travel, push it all the way toward the column and see if that makes a difference. 
(it came out of there so it has to go back. It's just a matter of finding the right combination.)


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Take the gib out, slide the table to the middle of the travel, push it all the way toward the column and see if that makes a difference.



I have already tried that a dozen times now, it's the same or worse than when I attempt to install it with the table extremely left.


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## Tom O (Jun 17, 2020)

Just out of curiosity what does the other end look like #232 sticks out a fare way is it possible to turn it around?


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## David_R8 (Jun 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> HELP!!!!! I'm in over my head and don't know what to do.
> 
> View attachment 9658
> 
> This is a far as the X-AXIS gib will seat by hand.  If I force it in any deeper it binds the table up so tight you can't move it by hand.  I have stoned the gib for well over two hours now with no real effect.  I inspected and felt all the mating surfaces and don't see or feel anything that might cause this.  I do get the impression that the gib is a little bowed over it's entire length.  Maybe it needs a tune up on a surface grinder?  DUNNO, I'm at a loss



When the table is in this position, does it change anything if the table is shifted to the right slightly?


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

Tom O said:


> Just out of curiosity what does the other end look like #232 sticks out a fare way is it possible to turn it around?



You talking the gib?  The gib only installs one way.  What manual are you looking at?


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> When the table is in this position, does it change anything if the table is shifted to the right slightly?



As in shifted all the way left?  Nope.


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## David_R8 (Jun 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> As in shifted all the way left? Nope.



I’m thinking shifting the table to the right 


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## DPittman (Jun 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Let's see...… I need a proper vise for sure, and 3-axis DRO is a given.  As it stands, I don't have the T-NUTS to mount anything on this thing right now LOL.
> 
> Any one have two 1/2" T-NUTS and bolts to spare?
> 
> Craig


I have a whole extra 1/2" t nut clamping set I'm selling. Like new $50.


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## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I’m thinking shifting the table to the right



Not following?

I'm going to set the gib and put the lead screw on and see what I have.  I suspect it will be so stiff it will require double handed cranking.


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## PeterT (Jun 17, 2020)

Something is amiss if the table doesn't slide freely on the ways without the gib strip in place. It should not need the lead screw to jack it at all. Its only sliding on the horizontal surfaces until the gib comes into play to laterally mate it to the dovetails. In fact most common mill disassembly is you remove the leadscrew end guides, unscrew the leadscrew from the nut, remove the gib strip & slide off the table. The initial alignment when installing or the last couple inches when dismantling is the only tricky bit where you have to have table supported & aligned because its cantilevered off the center base. But obviously you got that far already.

Looking at some of the previous pics - wasn't the gib in position & presumably the table moving smoothly? What changed?


----------



## Dabbler (Jun 17, 2020)

I had a good look at it.  I've disassembled 5 mills and reassembled 4 of them (one is pending)  I've never seen anything like this.  We got a little grime out, and we got one burr out, and the gibb advanced 3/8" towards the correct position.  After that we could get no further.  I'm stumped!

With the gibb out about 1/2" too far, the table moves smoothly.  advance it 1/8 of an inch, and everything locks up.  I'm certain it is assembled correctly.  Only one place for the gibb adjustment screw.  Only one orientation for the gibb to engage the screw.  Just like every other mill I've seen, except not working.


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## PeterT (Jun 17, 2020)

To check the gib strip for warpage or schmeg, lay it on your mill table on each prism face. A flashlight will help to see any gap if its bowed high in the center low on the ends. Or if its high on either end you should be able to anchor an end & notice it can be rocked slightly. It will most likely be tapered but it should be planar (flat) on each face.


----------



## PeterT (Jun 17, 2020)

Ah, the Doctor is already in! LoL.


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

PeterT said:


> 1) Something is amiss if the table doesn't slide freely on the ways without the gib strip in place.
> 
> 2) Looking at some of the previous pics - wasn't the gib in position & presumably the table moving smoothly? What changed?



1) The table moves freely with the gib removed.  It doesn't move freely when the gib is installed, it binds.

2) What happened was I disassemble it to move it into my basement LOL.


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## David_R8 (Jun 17, 2020)

Can the table be started from the left side if the gib is put in the correct position?


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## Brent H (Jun 17, 2020)

Hey Craig,

You mentioned the x and y axis are same gibs, have you tried swapping them?

Any chance of distorting the base with bolting it down?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

So with the gib installed that's as far as the table can be slid by hand.






With the lead screw installed I can crank her from stop to stop, but 2/3 of that is a two fisted operation.

I'm pretty sure that gib is slightly bowed and that's what's causing all of this grief.


----------



## Brent H (Jun 17, 2020)

can you put the gib on a surface plate or uber flat surface to check?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> You mentioned the x and y axis are same gibs, have you tried swapping them?
> 
> Any chance of distorting the base with bolting it down?



That wasn't me.  They are distinctly different lengths.  No chance of mixing them up.

No way of distorting that base.  It's a heavy, thick piece of cast iron.


----------



## Brent H (Jun 17, 2020)

Lay the gib out on the milling table top and see if there is light under it - as in your "bowed" philosophy - Mill table should be somewhat flat if you have no other source?


----------



## Johnwa (Jun 17, 2020)

I assume you and @Dabbler checked all 4 dovetails for burs and dings?  Other than that I can’t think of anything.


----------



## DPittman (Jun 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> That wasn't me.  They are distinctly different lengths.  No chance of mixing them up.
> 
> No way of distorting that base.  It's a heavy, thick piece of cast iron.


I'm not saying the base IS distorted but I AM saying that it is totally possible to do and easy than you think. A distortion of 20 thousands will make things bind. Did you try things with the base unbolted?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Lay the gib out on the milling table top and see if there is light under it - as in your "bowed" philosophy - Mill table should be somewhat flat if you have no other source?



With the gib set into position on it's saddle dovetail there was an ever so slight rock to it.  Holding a straight edge to it seemed to showed a slight bow.  I'm pretty sure that thing is flat on the saddle side and tapered on the table side. Strange arrangement and not sure I understand how that would allow the table to sit square with the saddle.


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 17, 2020)

DPittman said:


> A distortion of 20 thousands will make things bind. Did you try things with the base unbolted?



Yes.


----------



## Dabbler (Jun 17, 2020)

We worked with the base completely separately for over 1/2 hour.  All dovetails were checked.  the gibb was stoned on both major surfaces.  That only leaves the two minor gibb surfaces.  It's the only thing I didn't check.


----------



## Brent H (Jun 18, 2020)

The only suggestion I have is to blue up the gib and see where the rub is happening?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

Brent H said:


> The only suggestion I have is to blue up the gib and see where the rub is happening?



Blued and installed.  How many times should I crank this table back and forth before pulling it out to have a look?






Well, I didn't have to look to far.  As soon as the table approaches this part of the gibb she binds.  I rolled the table back to expose more of the gib and didn't see any thing significant past this point.

Do I dare stone her in place?






Also, I discovered that if you position max right with the lead screw installed you can get the gibb in and out with just a few love taps.  My love tap hammer is on the left in this image.

Craig


----------



## David_R8 (Jun 18, 2020)

I would pull it out to stone it. 
Are there no marks on the rest of it?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I would pull it out to stone it.
> Are there no marks on the rest of it?



Standby I'll pull her out and check.






Nothing on the table side as expected and nothing on the bottom.  The culprits appear to be on the table side and top at the same location near the narrow end of the gibb.


----------



## David_R8 (Jun 18, 2020)

Ok that's kinda bizarre. I would just stone down the offending places and see what happens. Obviously there's clearance along the rest of it.


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Ok that's kinda bizarre. I would just stone down the offending places and see what happens. Obviously there's clearance along the rest of it.



Well you can see there are a few places along the table side dragging but not like the two end spots.

BTB - With the table to right like I posted you can set and jack out the gibb via the bibb adjusting screw once you have it threading in place, so it's not real tight at that point.


----------



## Brent H (Jun 18, 2020)

Hey Craig, 

Your last pic shows the end of the gib not very "square" looks wavy? and blue is really gone?  perhaps the area to concentrate on?  The small taper looks like the only area anything is touching?


----------



## PeterT (Jun 18, 2020)

Is there any chance the table is bowed? This might explain a few conditions you are seeing. Visualize if the ends were arcing slightly up or slightly down.
- table will appear to enter the center casting dovetail OK (because the effective arc length is short at this point)
- as table gets centered, it appears to slide normally or maybe has slight resistance if I understood correctly? (its just sliding on the horizontal surface, dovetail misalignment is not yet into play)
- now the gib insertion phase. First the non-gib dovetails come together & becomes mated as best it can. Table would now see some sticking resistance. Now even a perfectly straight gib would go into its gap & then hang up once it encounters the pinch point. (Dabbler was saying it was kind of go / no-go sensitive as opposed to linearly taking up slack). 

Has table been check in this regard? Ideally lay table on a flat granite surface (ya we all have one of those :/ ) it would show gap underneath if bowed high or would rock if either end up. Maybe there is another way using indicator like how they check granite plates but my brain isn't registering anything. Supposedly if you hold fishing line (wire) taunt across the corners you can see light gap with a flashlight but I've only seen this done in non-machine applications.

The other thing is maybe table twist or some combination of twist & bow?


----------



## RobinHood (Jun 18, 2020)

When you first got the mill, did you happen to move the table in the X-axis (before you took it apart to move it into the basement)? If yes, how does the force required to move it in X compare?

Are you using any way oil to assemble the mill (or any lubricant for that matter)?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

Frack!!!!!  Stoning is getting me no where.  I really think she's bowed and the table is straightening it out as it moves to engulf it and ultimately the pressure to straighten it causes the binding.  Material needs to be removed to relieve the effect of the bow (file) or shorten the gibb (1/2", maybe less).  

Which one is it?


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> When you first got the mill, did you happen to move the table in the X-axis (before you took it apart to move it into the basement)? If yes, how does the force required to move it in X compare?
> 
> Are you using any way oil to assemble the mill (or any lubricant for that matter)?



I honestly don't remember, I was so consumed with getting it off the truck and into the shed, but I don't think it behaved this way.  Maybe it did?

Right now I'm using WD40.  @Dabbler told me to use really thin oil for initial assembly.


----------



## RobinHood (Jun 18, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Right now I'm using WD40. @Dabbler told me to use really thin oil for initial assembly.



Was just wondering because your ways look dry in picture of post #259.

same picture, looks like the gib is rubbing on its secondary surfaces (blueing is gone)






you can take a file to that area. The gib is not to touch the bottom of the table anywhere along that surface. It appears too tall.

i wonder if the fact that you disassembled the table (probably for the first time since manufacture) caused the gib to bow - as you have observed - because it was not properly stress relieved after machining?

I would in that case heat the gib with a heat gun evenly and wrap it in insulation to let it cool down slowly. Then see if it has straightened out.

another thing: is the lead screw “floating” in its end caps? Are there shims to properly adjust end play? It could be that the lead screw is “bending“ the table if the distance between the end caps is too tight.


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## PeterT (Jun 18, 2020)

Its hard to imagine the table or base could be distorted to the degree that would cause this kind of binding so Rudy makes a good point, maybe stress relief of gib strip once disassembled caused gib to bow. But that should be evident on the straightness test laying on mill table for example. I'm pretty sure my RF-45's were cast iron but its still capable of bending.  It seems its the introduction of the gib where things go south. Without the leadscrew engaged & gib installed loosely the table should slide back &  forth by hand when oiled. Actually the way the tightening (table lock) action works on these Asian machines is the screws push against the gib strip which squeezes the table dovetail which holds it in stationary position, so there has to be just a smidge of float in there to begin with.

If the table is sliding smoothly with gib and then you get different results engaging the leadscrew then Rudy is exactly right. Some misalignment could be drawing the table in one direction or another. Could be leadscrew, end castings, leadscrew nut (+/- shims). But I get the impression you are resorting to the leadscrew to physically jack the table into position? If so this is just a big red flag something is amiss with the gib/dovetail geometry. Establish table action first, leadscrew assembly second unless there is no other way.

So dumb question time, did you traverse the x-axis before disassembly & it was smooth through the range?
Does it look like the gib strip belongs to the machine, like usually tell-tale overspray of same paint? There's nothing wrong with replacing a gib with good intentions if worn or broke, but a lot of this stuff is kind of hand fitted on the factory floor and a 'new' one meaning same part number may not fit up the same. I saw a lot of this cut'n'grind to fit action on my lathe.

Probably fine but I'll ask anyways - are the X & Y adjustment screws interchangeable or maybe one belongs to a specific hole. The gib stickout on X&Y looks roughly the same on both axis but just wondering if the (wrong) screw is artificially lifting the gib & causing friction?


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## YYCHM (Jun 18, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Was just wondering because your ways look dry in picture of post #259.
> 
> same picture, looks like the gib is rubbing on its secondary surfaces (blueing is gone)
> you can take a file to that area. The gib is not to touch the bottom of the table anywhere along that surface. It appears too tall.
> ...



Stoning eliminated the top binding.  It's all in the last inch of the table consuming the gibb on the table side now.

With the table all the way to right I can slip a piece of paper between the gibb and the saddle dove tail.  Once the table approaches the end of the gibb (as in consume it), the paper is pinched tight.  It's as if the gibb is being flattened (or rolled) into the saddle dove tail.

This machine is minty.  I don't think it's been used much or ever disassembled.  I put the first cracks in any enamel, and what looks like rust in the images is original grease/preservative.

Craig


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## Tom O (Jun 19, 2020)

Has anyone checked the side opposite the gib for swarf or dings that would affect fitting the gib?


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

Tom O said:


> Has anyone checked the side opposite the gib for swarf or dings that would affect fitting the gib?



Yes numerous times.


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## RobinHood (Jun 19, 2020)

Robin Renzetti in a recent video mentioned again that “everything is rubber” referring to how easy it is for materials to bend and deform. That fact can not be over stressed. Even seemingly very stout pieces of CI, or steel will deform under surprisingly small forces. Case in point: on my SM 1340 I had spent a lot of time fitting the compound onto the cross slide and get a super smooth operation over the full range of travel. But every time I had the BXA size tool post in a certain spot, the compound would be smooth for about 2/3rd of its range and then bind up (still move, but not as freely). I lived with that for years. Then one day I decided: I have a surface grinder, why don’t I grind the TOP of the compound (mostly to make it look nice and practise my grinding on CI). The grind finish was/is not the best, but it reduced the length of the “bind-up” to about 1/5th of travel. So I was happy. Another few years passed and then I got fed up again and revisited the problem. Noticed that depending how tight the tool post nut was I could get the compound to move freely through the full range. The difference between binding and free was maybe 3*-5* of angle on the spanner (ie, very little). So off came the tool post. It was factory ground on the bottom, so I had left it for good thinking that they knew what they were doing. Ah, what the heck, I’ll “dust it off on the surface grinder”. Took about 20 min. to grind the bottom. Seemed pretty flat as the wheel traversed I had contact all the way across. But, from the sparks, I could tell that in the center there was a very shallow ”dish” about 1.5” diameter. So I ground that out with a light second pass and a cleanup pass. Put the TP back on the lathe and tightened down. Now i can put the TP in any orientation on the compound, tighten as much (or little) and it no longer binds up anywhere.

my point: things will distort; easily!

back to your mill: those hold down bolts - make sure that they are barely snug; do not crank on them. You will bend your base on top of the wooden table. Lead screw: make sure the caps are spaced properly, that the nut is in the same plane and does not bend it in any way. As @PeterT suggested, set your table and gib without the lead screw installed. It has to be a sliding fit and you have to be able to move the table by hand to set the gib tension. Then install the lead screw. On my BP, the table “floats” on the saddle when pushed by hand. Very little force required (it is sliding on way oil, not just WD40 though). I set the gib that way, with just a bit of ”drag”, as per the manual. As @Tom O suggests, make sure the opposite surfaces are free from dings (I see that you have already checked numerous times, great). All surfaces must be clean (you mention preservative is still on parts of the machine). Clean all of it off. That stuff gets hard when dry and will give you grief if in the wrong area, even the thinnest film.

main thing: you are close to getting there. Be patient, don’t assume anything. I know you want to have it up and running and make chips - we are all rooting for you as well.


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

The gibb is bowed, no if ands or buts. You can see it and feel it.  Lay the gibb saddle side down on the top of the table and she rocks.  Lay it table side down and it doesn't rock and you can see light between the gibb and the table.  I can slip a 0.005" feeler gauge under it.


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## historicalarms (Jun 19, 2020)

Just an observation from previous post when you had the thing apart in your shed & were trying the gibs for fitting & and you mentioned "tapping" with a beater of some kind. I appears to me that the gibs maybe got a bit "peaned" on the ends...soft metal will pean real easy. with your calipers, check "thickness" of the gib at both ends and at a few spots in the middle where you say it isn't binding....might reveal a slight bit of "thickening" at the ends.


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## historicalarms (Jun 19, 2020)

If the bend is your problem , there should be a corresponding rub mark in the center of the bend as well, just on the oppositee sides of the gib from the end rubs


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Just an observation from previous post when you had the thing apart in your shed & were trying the gibs for fitting & and you mentioned "tapping" with a beater of some kind. I appears to me that the gibs maybe got a bit "peaned" on the ends...soft metal will pean real easy. with your calipers, check "thickness" of the gib at both ends and at a few spots in the middle where you say it isn't binding....might reveal a slight bit of "thickening" at the ends.



I cranked the table off the saddle while it was in the back of the truck and I didn't have any problems taking it off.

While in the shed I had issues getting the saddle off of table and had to resort to using a hammer cushioned by a 4X4 on the back of the saddle. The saddle remounted on the table no problem.

At no point did I beat on a gibb.


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> i wonder if the fact that you disassembled the table (probably for the first time since manufacture) caused the gib to bow - as you have observed - because it was not properly stress relieved after machining?
> 
> I would in that case heat the gib with a heat gun evenly and wrap it in insulation to let it cool down slowly. Then see if it has straightened out.



This is worth giving a try.  Heat at what temperature for how long?  I would have to use our oven to heat it or a propane torch.  What would suffice as insulation?

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jun 19, 2020)

Perhaps the head of the tightening screw is a bit large and is pushing the gib away.  Are the two heads “exactly“ the same?


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## PeterT (Jun 19, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Perhaps the head of the tightening screw is a bit large and is pushing the gib away.  Are the two heads “exactly“ the same?



That's what I suggested too, last sentence post 270


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## Johnwa (Jun 19, 2020)

PeterT said:


> That's what I suggested too, last sentence post 270


I see it now.


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## RobinHood (Jun 19, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> This is worth giving a try. Heat at what temperature for how long? I would have to use our oven to heat it or a propane torch. What would suffice as insulation?



i would go to ~200C, for about 20-30 min or so to make sure it is soaked. I would not use your kitchen oven - unless you plan on getting a new one and use this one in your shop going forward. Oil will burn off, any paint on it will blister, any solvent will off gas, smoking out your house.

Propane torch outside with some fire brick as a heat shield (or an old BBQ) and then a welding blanket for insulation (KO wool or RockWool should work as well).

All this procedure is assuming the gib got bent because of internal stresses. It happened to me when I made a new gib for my SM1340. After milling it to size and removing it from my jig, there was a bow in it. My gib is out of 1018 mild steel, so I just carefully straightened it in the vice. I would not attempt that with CI as it would probably break.

I am not an expert, nor have I ever done this stress relieving procedure myself. I’ve only watched a very experienced blacksmith stress relieving CI and that is the procedure he used. He had repaired a CI part (welded it), put it into his forge at low flame for about half an hour, took it out, covered it in a heavy blanket and walked away. The next day he completed the project with some grinding of the weld and repainting the part because all the paint had burned off.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge / experience can chime in?


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## Dabbler (Jun 19, 2020)

We blued it in on my surface plate, and it is not bad at all.  there is a 3/4 of a  thou bow in the gibb.  That is less than my first mill, and it reassembled just fine.  So that;s not the problem.  I found by using Prussian blue on my surface plate that there are some very minor bumps on the gibb, but nothing serious to do this.  I cut some oil ways (well scratches, really) onto both sides and re-stoned the gibb.

The next thing to check is up/down gibb positioning.  since it bound tight in open air, it is certainly not the hold down bolts in any event.

There is a 3 tenths taper where there it should be flat, but that's not enough to bind the thing 3/4 inches out of place in the gibb adjustment.    The mystery is getting deeper, that's for sure...


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## Dabbler (Jun 19, 2020)

@RobinHood - keith fenner is back making videos and in part 2 (his most recent viedo) he tempers a spline shaft using a lime bucket.  Worth watching, for sure.


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

I don't think this gibb is CI.

I took the gibb over to @Dabbler today and he blued it on a surface plate and stoned all the high spots off.  We confirmed that it is indeed bowed to around 0.008".  However it is flexible to the point where you can negate the bow with nothing more than your thumb.  John spent a good 2 hours with me and is convinced that the gibb isn't the issue here but rather how it's seating.

John gave me some way oil, proper assembling oil, and a better stone to use (Thanks John!!!)

When I got home, I pulled the table and cleaned all the mating surfaces with Varsol, re-inspected (didn't find anything of interest), lubed the mating surfaces and tried again.  It's closer but not close enough.

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jun 19, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @RobinHood - keith fenner is back making videos and in part 2 (his most recent viedo) he tempers a spline shaft using a lime bucket.  Worth watching, for sure.



yes, I saw the latest videos, thanks.


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## RobinHood (Jun 19, 2020)

Sounds like you are in good hands with John C., Craig.

sure is a mystery why this thing will not assemble properly. You have been through all the obvious things multiple times... 

interesting that the gib is not CI from factory...


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## Johnwa (Jun 19, 2020)

Within limits cast iron is actually quite flexible.  When I took welding the instructor asked us what we thought.  Then he held out a cast iron welding rod and a steel rod.  The cast iron drooped like a wet noodle.


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## YYCHM (Jun 19, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Within limits cast iron is actually quite flexible.  When I took welding the instructor asked us what we thought.  Then he held out a cast iron welding rod and a steel rod.  The cast iron drooped like a wet noodle.



@Dabbler is that gibb CI?

Craig


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## Dabbler (Jun 20, 2020)

I think the gibb is CI.  When I stoned it it made the little sandy swarf you get from stoning CI or malleable iron.


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## Brent H (Jun 20, 2020)

Hey Craig,

When I was making the new gib for my lathe I had that sucker true as anything and there was pretty much nothing high that would or should cause a jam up - but it did.....took me forever to find out why -

there were a couple high spots at the end of the dovetail on the cross slide base - just a couple very small dimples...like 1 to 2 thou - in my case I had machined the dovetails but the cutter failed to remove the high spots as they were the hard nickle repair metal I had used.  Once I found the spots, I had to carefully grind them

There could be a few tiny dimples or dents that are messing things up for you.  To locate the possible issues, what I did was take the blueing and apply it to the dovetail ways using a foam brush.  you want a very thin coating but you want it uniform.  take your gib and run it through the dovetail in the correct orientation with a steady pressure.  Once you make the pass, check the way for any high spots (bluing will scrape off to a shine or leave a streak on the gib) 

This could be as simple as a wee dent that happened when you pulled the table apart, believe me- it does not take much and can drive you mental

In your picture below I circled the cleaned off blue on the gib- where is this happening when you crank in the table?  that may be the area you need to look at for any issue.


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Brent H said:


> In your picture below I circled the cleaned off blue on the gib- where is this happening when you crank in the table?  that may be the area you need to look at for any issue.



Brent, I eliminated that issue area by stoning but it didn't have any effect in the end.  @Dabbler thinks I may have stoned a little too much off the gib now.

In any event,  @Dabbler and @RobinHood are coming over to inspect the machine together.  If they can't solve this mystery no one can.

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jun 20, 2020)

One more guess.  Is it possible the leadscrew nut was rotated 180 degrees?


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## Brent H (Jun 20, 2020)

It may not be a gib issue Craig, 

My previous post was to call your attention to seeing where on the ways you may have an issue.  just a wee dent may be the whole problem - but yes - you have assembled the dream team


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> One more guess.  Is it possible the leadscrew nut was rotated 180 degrees?



What would that do?  I don't think you could thread it in from the wrong side or could you?


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## Johnwa (Jun 20, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What would that do? I don't think you could thread it in from the wrong side or could you?



It’s possible for them to be a bit off center. The leadscrew will bind if assembled incorrectly. It only matters if is can accidentally be rotated though. I had that issue on the cross slide nut on my Southbend lathe.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> It’s possible for them to be a bit off center. The leadscrew will bind if assembled incorrectly. It only matters if is can accidentally be rotated though. I had that issue on the cross slide nut on my Southbend lathe.



I never removed the nut from the saddle so it's not reversed if that's what you mean.  The leads screw threads in fine from the right and the table moves freely for the first 1/4 of travel or so, after that it gets stiff.


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## Tom O (Jun 20, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> It’s possible for them to be a bit off center. The leadscrew will bind if assembled incorrectly. It only matters if is can accidentally be rotated though. I had that issue on the cross slide nut on my Southbend lathe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was just thinking the same thing maybe try loosening the shaft caps. I was thinking about this too that colouring on the nut Paint or is that from rubbing?


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Tom O said:


> I was just thinking the same thing maybe try loosening the shaft caps. I was thinking about this too that colouring on the nut Paint or is that from rubbing?



That's yellow paint.  It must mean something to the assembly line.

Keep the idea's coming guys. I'm grasping for straws here.


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## Johnwa (Jun 20, 2020)

you could try @Tom O idea and loosen the leadscrew caps too see if that helps.  There doesn’t seem to be much room for play in the bolts holding them on though.  It would at least rule out the leadscrew binding


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## Brent H (Jun 20, 2020)

Can you adjust the backlash on your lead screws? - if so, loosen the adjuster and then give things a try?


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> you could try @Tom O idea and loosen the leadscrew caps too see if that helps.  There doesn’t seem to be much room for play in the bolts holding them on though.  It would at least rule out the leadscrew binding



I have essentialy done that a few times now.  I only installed the cap screws finger tight each time I mounted the lead screw.


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> I’ve only watched a very experienced blacksmith stress relieving CI and that is the procedure he used. He had repaired a CI part (welded it), put it into his forge at low flame for about half an hour, took it out, covered it in a heavy blanket and walked away. The next day he completed the project with some grinding of the weld and repainting the part because all the paint had burned off.



Was it glowing when he took it out of the forge?


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## RobinHood (Jun 20, 2020)

No, not that I could tell.


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> No, not that I could tell.



The Gibb is cooling down wrapped in fiberglass insulation and a towel as we speak.  I'll give it another hour before checking it.  I passed a plumbers torch over her for 15 minutes per side.  It appeared to be almost a straw color but I don't know if that applies to CI.


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## YYCHM (Jun 20, 2020)

Well... the gibb heat soak did tame the bow down a little.  Didn't solve the problem however.


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## Tom O (Jun 20, 2020)

So let’s take it back to square one cause this is too weird.
1. When you took the shaft out did you take off both end caps and switched them reinstalling?
2. Pull the shaft and see if the gib fits But I belive this has been tried.
3  I looked back at the pictures of disassembly page 3 #43 and see some parts laid on the slide area has the meeting areas been stoned for nicks yet or is the gib the only thing been done.


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## Tom O (Jun 21, 2020)

How are the threads in the nut and is the shaft straight? I was even thinking maybe try the gib locks it might help position it but that’s a wild thought.
In post #299 ( with the paint on the nut ) there are 2 spots that show on the ways above the nut and to the right or is that just the pic?


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## Dabbler (Jun 21, 2020)

It turns out that the rubbing areas were rubbing on the out-of-place gibb on the dovetail..  I had assumed that the gibb seats on its bottom edge in the dovetail, as in every other mill I've seen.  In this case the gibb sits properly when it is elevated around 20 thou from the bottom or dovetail - or about 1/2 the way up.  Things then run properly.  

@RobinHood noticed that the gibb had a lot of up/down play.  I was expecting top seat it down.  We then tried all the way up, but it only worked in the final position, in the middle.  

It makes the install a little tricky!!


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## Brent H (Jun 21, 2020)

oh man....that is a strange little quirk!  great catch


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## YYCHM (Jun 21, 2020)

A big THANK YOU to @Dabbler and @RobinHood for take the time to come over today and solve this problem for me.

They spent over 2 1/2 hours cleaning, deburring, and lubricating all the saddle and table mating surfaces (and some other areas as well).  Test fitting the Gibb revealed that it would roll away from the table dovetail if it was allowed to bottom out on the dovetail.  The tendency to roll ceased when the Gibb was held off the bottom of the dovetail. They had found the sweet spot.  Some paper strips were installed under the Gibb to hold it off the bottom of the saddle dove tail and voila the Gibb seated fully without binding the table.  She runs real smooth and easy now.  

Phew, I'm so glad that is solved now!!!!  Was getting a little panicked.

Looks like I need to install some lubrication points on both the table and the saddle, but that can wait for now.

First order of business is to make some T-NUTs.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your help.

Craig


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 21, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> A big THANK YOU to @Dabbler and @RobinHood for take the time to come over today and solve this problem for me.
> 
> First order of business is to make some T-NUTs.
> 
> Craig



If you decide you don't want to make these I have some if you want.


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## David_R8 (Jun 21, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> A big THANK YOU to @Dabbler and @RobinHood for take the time to come over today and solve this problem for me.
> 
> They spent over 2 1/2 hours cleaning, deburring, and lubricating all the saddle and table mating surfaces (and some other areas as well). Test fitting the Gibb revealed that it would roll away from the table dovetail if it was allowed to bottom out on the dovetail. The tendency to roll ceased when the Gibb was held off the bottom of the dovetail. They had found the sweet spot. Some paper strips were installed under the Gibb to hold it off the bottom of the saddle dove tail and voila the Gibb seated fully without binding the table. She runs real smooth and easy now.
> 
> ...



Oh hurray!
I was genuinely concerned that something had gone seriously awry. 
Welcome to the club! [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PeterT (Jun 21, 2020)

Way to go guys. Always nice when there is a solution at the end of the journey. So would a more permanent fix be bonding shim stock along the bottom of the gib strip to ensure it sits the same way each time? Or is it more complicated than that and the strip requires a different amount of lift on one end vs the other?


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## YYCHM (Jun 21, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> If you decide you don't want to make these I have some if you want.



Thanks for the offer!!!  T-NUTs are a simple project, it will give me a chance to test drive this beast.

Craig


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 21, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Thanks for the offer!!!  T-NUTs are a simple project, it will give me a chance to test drive this beast.
> 
> Craig


I figured as much. Enjoy Craig.


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## Tom O (Jun 21, 2020)

That’s great news enjoy your machine!


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## RobinHood (Jun 21, 2020)

PeterT said:


> So would a more permanent fix be bonding shim stock along the bottom of the gib strip to ensure it sits the same way each time? Or is it more complicated than that and the strip requires a different amount of lift on one end vs the other?



That would certainly work. I personally would just drill two small holes in the bottom, about 1.5” from each end, and locktite small brass feet into them. Then file as required to support the gib off the bottom of the flat section on the saddle.

It basically only needs the support during assembly/disassembly. Once in place, it is sandwiched by the dovetail in its proper position.

If one end droops (while assembling/disassembling), the table locks up solid - we believe that was the struggle Craig experienced.

interestingly, the Y-axis gib is resting properly on the flat bottom of the mill base... hence no problems assembling that part.


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## YotaBota (Jun 21, 2020)

That was a long and what seemed like a painful road but good to see it end well.
Craig I think you owe the fine gentlemen some reward juice.
Out of curiosity - is there any way to tell if it's the gib or the dovetail that's goofed?


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## RobinHood (Jun 21, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> Out of curiosity - is there any way to tell if it's the gib or the dovetail that's goofed?



i think it is the gib. @Dabbler previously discovered a taper from the bottom to the top of the gib. those two planes should be parallel in the vertical but converging in the horizontal direction.


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## YotaBota (Jun 21, 2020)

With the quality control being iffy on the import machines a new gib may be as bad or worse than this one.
Well done.


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## PeterT (Jun 21, 2020)

Ya that's what I was wondering out loud several posts up. I've read where someone has ordered a part number xxx gib for their exact mill from the manufacturer & had very similar difficulties making it fit properly. Maybe the master setup changed from one year to the next. Or maybe there is some degree of shop floor 'fitting' (or lack thereof) that occurs when machines are assembled. In other words the machine 'works' but all bets off if you take it apart or replace the gib strip. That's the difference between interchangeable parts within tolerance and just 'parts'. Unfortunately we dont get to choose where they cut corners to make the machines affordable. I've seen some restorations where gibs were made from scratch & it doesn't look trivial.


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## Hruul (Jun 22, 2020)

Congrats Craig!! Awesome to have people local that can help you out with these weird issues.


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

Ok, so today I found out why folks didn't like these round column mills.






I had carefully setup and counter drilled in preparation to drill a hole.  I discovered the head was too low to install the drill bit.  After adjusting the head height, this is how much the head had shifted.   I had to completely relocate to where the hole needed to be drilled.  So now the head is too high to perform any milling.  Guess I had better do all the drilling before switching to milling.  Belt changes to attain the proper RPM is a bit of a PITA as well.

Oh well.... it is what it is.

@johnnielsen suggested that pinning the column rack to the column would eliminate some of the shifting.  I may give that a try.

Sorry for the crappy image.


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## Johnwa (Jun 23, 2020)

I’ve heard of people attaching laser pointers to the head shining on an opposite wall with a vertical line drawn on it.  The further the wall, the more accurate.  I don’t know how it compares to a using test dial though.


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 23, 2020)

I'm going to bet a year from now Craig will have all sorts of tips on how he got this dialled in and made it work beautifully.


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## Johnwa (Jun 23, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> I'm going to bet a year from now Craig will have all sorts of tips on how he got this dialled in and made it work beautifully.


Maybe a rifle scope instead of a laser.


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## DPittman (Jun 23, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I’ve heard of people attaching laser pointers to the head shining on an opposite wall with a vertical line drawn on it.  The further the wall, the more accurate.  I don’t know how it compares to a using test dial though.


Yes I've heard of that too and I would guess that it should be very accurate given how degrees and minutes work over distances.  And should be easy too once you have the laser mounted.  However the futher the wall gets the larger the laser dot gets therefore reducing your accuracy...I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere.


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## David_R8 (Jun 23, 2020)

A dial indicator against the spindle is easy and as accurate as the indicator. I do this all the time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> I'm going to bet a year from now Craig will have all sorts of tips on how he got this dialled in and made it work beautifully.




Love the tray.... I'm filling her with swarf as we speak  One more hole to drill and I'll switch to an endmill.


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## DPittman (Jun 23, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> Maybe a rifle scope instead of a laser.


Yes that would allow finer calibration but getting behind the scope to see that is mounted on the head might be a feat.  "Excuse me while a do a bit of yoga so I can get behind my milling maching to take a shot" LOL


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

Hmmmm…… a line on the column and a fine laser sight attached to the quill might work.


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

Ouch..... I just released the quill lock and got it in chops with a rapid feed lever LOL.  This thing has a pretty substantial quill retraction spring.


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## DPittman (Jun 23, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Hmmmm…… a line on the column and a fine laser sight attached to the quill might work.


I doubt that would work Craig as the laser dot is not small enough in relation to your mark/line for the needed accuracy


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## DPittman (Jun 23, 2020)

the laser idea works on the concept of minutes of angle and the larger the distance between the aimer and target the more precision is needed( or can be attained)  i know you know this stuff cuz I've seen reloading equipment in your pics!


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## CalgaryPT (Jun 23, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Love the tray.... I'm filling her with swarf as we speak  One more hole to drill and I'll switch to an endmill.


Good for you. Had an older family member when I was young who had a real green thumb. He owned the most beautiful evergreen trees, junipers and even cedars in Calgary. He was the envy of the neighbourhood. He'd toss his fine swarf in the base of the trees all the time. The bigger stuff he left in a can that had holes punched in the bottom. Whenever he would water, he'd put the can next to the evergreen and water through the rusting swarf. Turns out evergreen trees love iron.

Happy milling.


----------



## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

Apparently smokeless gun powder is a very good fertilizer.  When ever I have some to dispose of I simply sprinkle it in the garden.


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

Well this is a dumb ass arrangement!!!!






The set screw to adjust this down feed dial to zero is installed at 9 oclock on the dial as you face it.  With zero set you can't get at it to tighten it up.  All's that I can think of now is to drop the endmill down to match my zero.

That arrangement is going to have to be change.

Boy I miss DRO's. Lets see, 0.2 = 0.001 X 100 X 2, I have to go twice around the dial.  That looks to be about where it should be..... I hope.


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## PeterT (Jun 23, 2020)

I dont see the set screw you are talking about. My RF-45 had a very obvious thumbscrew sticking out of the dial ring. Loosen thumbscrew, rotate dial o zero or whatever, reset thumbscrew. 

By chance is the knurled ring threaded so you loosen up, move the dial & tighten? That's kind of the other common way but its machine specific.


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## PeterT (Jun 23, 2020)

You might also want to verify the downfeed by giving some turns against an inverted dial indicator. Some of the offshore mills were notorious for not being accurate especially the ones with metric gears and inch 'conversion' wheels. But that was earlier vintage. Hopefully that's been resolved by now on your newer mill & looks like you have conventional inch dial graduations which is encouraging.


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## YYCHM (Jun 23, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I dont see the set screw you are talking about. My RF-45 had a very obvious thumbscrew sticking out of the dial ring. Loosen thumbscrew, rotate dial o zero or whatever, reset thumbscrew.
> 
> By chance is the knurled ring threaded so you loosen up, move the dial & tighten? That's kind of the other common way but its machine specific.



You don't see the set screw because it's facing the head.  The dial with knurled ring is one piece.  Maybe you're not supposed to lock the set screw down and it floats???

The X and Y axis dials have the thumbscrew you describe.

I still need to tram this thing and check all the dials with a DI.


----------



## historicalarms (Jun 24, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Ouch..... I just released the quill lock and got it in chops with a rapid feed lever LOL.  This thing has a pretty substantial quill retraction spring.




That return spring tension is easily set by hand.

   remove the plastic headed bolt from the spring housing, the spring housing should remain in place but just in case keep holding it against the head casting with your hand until you are ready to adjust. Now, while holding firmly to the outside housing, wiggle it free from the setting dowel ( this dowel is firmly set into the head casting) that is in one of the notches cut in the housing. Now just allow the spring housing to rotate in your fingers for 1/2 a turn or so and then re-hook to the dowel, re-install holding bolt.

    You might not get it to your preference the first time, I had to re-adjust mine a couple times after I had the quill out for servicing last month.


----------



## historicalarms (Jun 24, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Good for you. Had an older family member when I was young who had a real green thumb. He owned the most beautiful evergreen trees, junipers and even cedars in Calgary. He was the envy of the neighbourhood. He'd toss his fine swarf in the base of the trees all the time. The bigger stuff he left in a can that had holes punched in the bottom. Whenever he would water, he'd put the can next to the evergreen and water through the rusting swarf. Turns out evergreen trees love iron.
> 
> Happy milling.



   You can turn a green spruce into a blue spruce by sprinkling all the cuttings from a drill press at the base of the tree. We have done this on the farm for years. rain water will leach the iron oxides down to the roots. I don't know why it happens but we have had 5 yr old trees that are green as grass turn bluish in two years and vivid blue in 5 yrs.


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

Sweet!!!!






I was able to take 0.2 wide by 0.03 deep passes and it wasn't working hard at all.  1/2" two flt at 1000 RPM.  I might even get 0.05 deep passes out of her.  The dials took her to target dimension no problem.  Looks like my holes are off a bit


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Sweet!!!!
> 
> View attachment 9730
> 
> I was able to take 0.2 wide by 0.03 deep passes and it wasn't working hard at all.  1/2" two flt at 1000 RPM.  I might even get 0.05 deep passes out of her.  The dials took her to target dimension no problem.  Looks like my holes are off a bit


Oops on the holes!
These machines will do serious work. I get that it's not a 2,000 lb kneemill but I get kinda bugged when people dismiss them.


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Oops on the holes!
> These machines will do serious work. I get that it's not a 2,000 lb kneemill but I get kinda bugged when people dismiss them.



What do you figure, should I belt her for 770 RPM and see how it goes?  1040 seemed a little fast to me, especially drilling.


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What do you figure, should I belt her for 770 RPM and see how it goes?  1040 seemed a little fast to me, especially drilling.


This is what I use for speeds and feeds.
https://littlemachineshop.com/mobile/speeds_feeds.php


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> This is what I use for speeds and feeds.
> https://littlemachineshop.com/mobile/speeds_feeds.php



Me to.


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What do you figure, should I belt her for 770 RPM and see how it goes?  1040 seemed a little fast to me, especially drilling.


I'd go much slower than 770 for drilling.


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## Brent H (Jun 24, 2020)

How slow can your mills go @David_R8  and @YYCHobbyMachinist ?


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

This is the factory speed chart for my mill. So from the factory down to 220 rpm. With my VFD conversion it will go down to 18 rpm at 5 Hz. There's no torque at that speed (I hand stop the spindle by hand) however so practically speaking 25-30 Hz will give me ~90 -110 rpm with plenty of torque for tapping.


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

Brent H said:


> How slow can your mills go @David_R8  and @YYCHobbyMachinist ?








120 RPM according to the belt chart.  Where the heck do you find 50hz power?


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## Hruul (Jun 24, 2020)

50hz is the frequency in some of Europe and Asia.


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## Brent H (Jun 24, 2020)

@David_R8 , that is pretty decent for speed. The larger your drill bit the slower you go -Looks like a different pulley arrangement on your two mills with @YYCHobbyMachinist  getting down to 120.  For just the belts 120 is pretty good to have! Your VFD @David_R8  will be very helpful!


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

Brent H said:


> @David_R8 , that is pretty decent for speed. The larger your drill bit the slower you go -Looks like a different pulley arrangement on your two mills with @YYCHobbyMachinist  getting down to 120.  For just the belts 120 is pretty good to have! Your VFD @David_R8  will be very helpful!


I'm curious about the diameters of the pulleys on @YYCHobbyMachinist machine


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

Well, I can get 0.2 wide by 0.05 deep passes out of her but you can tell that it starting to work harder.  Had to slow the feed rate down significantly.


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## YYCHM (Jun 24, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I'm curious about the diameters of the pulleys on @YYCHobbyMachinist machine



I'll dig the calipers out and take some rough measurements.  I'm surprised they aren't the same.  What brand is yours?
I wonder if @historicalarms machine is the same as mine.


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## David_R8 (Jun 24, 2020)

Mine is a Long Chang LC-30. 1980 vintage from Taiwan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

Don't have anything large enough to measure these pulleys with


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## David_R8 (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Don't have anything large enough to measure these pulleys with


No worries!


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## Dabbler (Jun 25, 2020)

I have digital verniers to 12"  come by.


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

The NUTS of SHAME..... LOL






I got the T part right but sure blew locating the holes.  Not very good with scribing and center punching that's for sure.


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## Dabbler (Jun 25, 2020)

A center finder will com in so handy!


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## DPittman (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The NUTS of SHAME..... LOL
> 
> View attachment 9743
> 
> I got the T part right but sure blew locating the holes.  No very good with scribing and center punching that's for sure.


Ya but the milling looks good.


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## Hruul (Jun 25, 2020)

I would say you have some standard and some "specialty" T-nuts.  Maybe "offset" t-nuts?


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> A center finder will com in so handy!



I used one to find the centers of my off center punch marks LOL.  Those electronic edge finders?  Are they just touch off or do they need to be rotating as well?


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## Johnwa (Jun 25, 2020)

I’m not sure what sort of edge finder you’re referring to.  I have one that I’ve never used that lights up when you touch an edge.  I think it would be wise to touch off, rotate the spindle 180 degrees and touch off again.  This compensates for any bend in the indicator.

when I need something better than close enough I use an endmill and a piece of paper.


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> I’m not sure what sort of edge finder you’re referring to.  I have one that I’ve never used that lights up when you touch an edge.  I think it would be wise to touch off, rotate the spindle 180 degrees and touch off again.  This compensates for any bend in the indicator.
> 
> when I need something better than close enough I use an endmill and a piece of paper.



Woha, I didn't realize those electronic ones were $50!  

I have one of these https://www.busybeetools.com/products/edge-and-centre-finder-1-2in-dia.html and it's been working fine for me on my variable speed mini.  The question is can I use it at 800 RPM with out destroying it?


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## Johnwa (Jun 25, 2020)

Mine is the same as that, but its missing some pieces.   It came with my mill.  I should actually get it working.

I think you need a vfd,


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## DPittman (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Woha, I didn't realize those electronic ones were $50!
> 
> I have one of these https://www.busybeetools.com/products/edge-and-centre-finder-1-2in-dia.html and it's been working fine for me on my variable speed mini.  The question is can I use it at 800 RPM with out destroying it?


Why would you need to use it at 800 rpm? I wouldn't think it would not hurt it tho.


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

DPittman said:


> Why would you need to use it at 800 rpm? I wouldn't think it would not hurt it tho.



Just to avoid a belt change LOL.  So you think it's ok at 800 RPM or not?


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## DPittman (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Just to avoid a belt change LOL.  So you think it's ok at 800 RPM or not?


Ah yes the fun of belt changes.  Yes I think it would be okay but I probably have less milling experience than you!  Matter of fact I think those finders probably work better at high speed than real low.  Let's let someone else be the guide on this one.


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## RobinHood (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> So you think it's ok at 800 RPM or not?



i use mine at 1000 - 1200 rpm normally. Works fine. if I am too lazy to decrease the rpm, it will do fine at 1600 as well... Have been for years with the same one. Came from a tool buy, probably BB, “GROZ” branded one. I also have two “good ones” (Starrett), no difference in accuracy. my daily user is the GROZ.


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## RobinHood (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Looks like my holes are off a bit



if they are functional - job done.

Maybe an issue with backlash? Or not compensating for it? (Probably not the case, as you state that you had scribe lines...). If you make another set, mill the “T” first and then put in the holes - gives you a chance to “cheat“ them into center. Meaning: use a spot drill and just put a dimple, check for center by measuring edge-to-dimple from both sides. If it is off, move half the difference. Re-dimple. Check again. Drill your holes.


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## YYCHM (Jun 25, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> if they are functional - job done.
> 
> Maybe an issue with backlash? Or not compensating for it? (Probably not the case, as you state that you had scribe lines...). If you make another set, mill the “T” first and then put in the holes - gives you a chance to “cheat“ them into center. Meaning: use a spot drill and just put a dimple, check for center by measuring edge-to-dimple from both sides. If it is off, move half the difference. Re-dimple. Check again. Drill your holes.



I kind of shot myself in the foot from square one by not squaring off the ends of the stock before attempting to scribe in the centers.  The stock was a little trapezoidal.  The two nuts that came from the center of the stock aren't all that bad.  The four I got from the ends..... well not so good.  Milling the T and then finding the centers is a better way to go all right.


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## RobinHood (Jun 25, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The stock was a little trapezoidal



that would explain a lot. For sure, squaring off stock is pretty much standard operating procedure. If you start with cold rolled stock, you may be able to get away without first squaring all surfaces as it is pretty close from factory if it is a non-critical portion of the part. Like in the case of T-nuts, the two bottom faces (the widest part of the “T”).


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## Dabbler (Jun 25, 2020)

The nuts could still be usable...  Mill off the excess metal on the one side.  Not as good as a perfect one, but...


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## historicalarms (Jun 26, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Just to avoid a belt change LOL.  So you think it's ok at 800 RPM or not?


  As I've stated before, I abhor belt changes on my machine and can commiserate with Craig's 3 post in less than a week of first using his machine on belt change hesitations.

    Basically I avoided belt changes by turning my mill at about 2-300 rpm no mater what size tool I use or what material I'm cutting. Slows down my jobs a bit all the time but I just cant see taking 30 minutes to change belt positions to save 10 minutes on a 20 minute job and then 30 minutes to change back again...and I notice a significant lessening of turning HSS endmills blue mid-job LOL.

    Craig, I checked my mill speed chart and it is the same as yours that is in the photo.


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## David_R8 (Jun 26, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> As I've stated before, I abhor belt changes on my machine and can commiserate with Craig's 3 post in less than a week of first using his machine on belt change hesitations.
> 
> Basically I avoided belt changes by turning my mill at about 2-300 rpm no mater what size tool I use or what material I'm cutting. Slows down my jobs a bit all the time but I just cant see taking 30 minutes to change belt positions to save 10 minutes on a 20 minute job and then 30 minutes to change back again...and I notice a significant lessening of turning HSS endmills blue mid-job LOL.
> 
> Craig, I checked my mill speed chart and it is the same as yours that is in the photo.



30 minutes to change belt positions?
How can it take that long?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DPittman (Jun 26, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> 30 minutes to change belt positions?
> How can it take that long?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was going to ask the same thing. While it's a bit annoying I think i could change mine in 3 minutes to any position.


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## historicalarms (Jun 26, 2020)

Well...let me explain...chronological advancement has severely affected my"nimbleness" that you fellers might no be experiencing yet...and then you add in echanging & finding the appropriate metric wrenches to replace the SAE wrenches that I regularly use...and then, because my mill is set so the table top is about mid-chest level so the chronologically taxed eyeball that I have left can see the cut happening means that the belts are "way up there" out of easy reach without a step ladder...so off to find the step ladder that the wife borrowed to trim tree branches(it might be anywhere's around the 5 acre estate...its just a farm yard but all our urban relatives call it an "estate). Climbing that ladder and pulling on wrenches and pry bars (to tighten the motor mount belt) is where the chronological advancement "nimbleness" really comes into play....your turn's are coming.


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## YYCHM (Jun 26, 2020)

It's not 30 min, it just feels like 30 min LOL.  But ya, it means dragging the step stool out, loosening the motor tensioner, climbing up to loosen the idler bracket, only to find out you grabbed the wrong wrench, back up jiggle the belts loose, reposition the belts, climb down, tension the motor, back up to tighten the idler bracket.  It's time consuming.  I'm trying to find that one speed that does 80% of what I typically do, which is milling with 1/2" endmills and drilling up to 1/2".


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## David_R8 (Jun 26, 2020)

Gotcha!
One thing I've learned over years is to dedicate wrenches to tools. 
I buy singles of whatever sizes I need for the machine adjustments and keep them on or near the machine. Definitely saves the frustration of having the wrong size.


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## YotaBota (Jun 26, 2020)

Having the required tools dedicated to the machine saves time and you add less money to the swear jar.
I've bought a lot of extra wrenches and "stuff" at the local "ReStore" Habitat for Humanity outlet. They usually have used and sometimes new wrenches, sockets and lots of brass plumbing stuff for a good price.


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## YYCHM (Jun 27, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I'm curious about the diameters of the pulleys on @YYCHobbyMachinist machine



These should be close.  Measured in mm.

Head 158 180 200 218

Idler 146 121 92 64

Motor 40 60 84 99


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## YYCHM (Jun 27, 2020)

How the heck do I square this beast to the table????






I know I have to indicate a jaw horizontally, but indicate off of what?  The spindle, the column, the saddle or what?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 27, 2020)

You tram it in the the spindle. 
You want it to travel in a path parallel to the spindle. 
Now the investment in measuring gear begins.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RobinHood (Jun 27, 2020)

You mount your DTI in the spindle and lock it (to stop the spindle from rotating & thus the DTI). Or you can use the DTI on a mag base and mount it to the head on a flat spot so that the stylus reaches the fixed jaw. Back off the tie down bolts so that one is snug and the other is a little more. You must be able to bump the vise with your hand or a soft mallet. Traverse the table side to side (x-axis movement) and watch the needle. If it rises (or falls) bump the vise to stop the needle from moving. You may have to traverse a number of times to achieve zero needle movement. Once you have it, start tightening the bolts, a little each until they are tight. Watch the DTI needle while tightening - it should not move. If it does, traverse, bump if required, and tighten. With a bit of practise you will be able to do this in a few minutes. So taking the vise off for a different set-up and putting it back on becomes a non-issue in the future.


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## Dabbler (Jun 27, 2020)

On Monday, I can come over and show you a few setups.


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## YYCHM (Jun 28, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> On Monday, I can come over and show you a few setups.



That would be great thanks.  I'll get you to recheck my tramming measurements as well.

Looks like I have....

0.002 tilt on the x-axis over 22"
0.004 tilt on the y-axis over 8"
0.006 yaw on the x-axis over 22"

+- 0.001

These were measure with a DI (I gave up on the DTI) and each repeated 3 times.






This is the only way I can figure out for getting the DI on this vise.  That's the moving Jaw I'm indicating off.  Cannot for the life of me figure how to indicate off the fixed jaw without resorting to using a mirror to read the DI.  That vise is indicating a 0.045 discrepancy over 5" that I cannot figure out how to eliminate.  Should be more like 0.001 max.

HELP!!!!


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## YYCHM (Jun 28, 2020)

Getting frustrated here






I can indicate off the fixed jaw but have to use a mirror to read (sort of) the DI.  Will see if I can square her this way...

I hate these DI mounting contraptions, they never seem to articulate in the manner you need.  My mag base holder drives me crazy


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## RobinHood (Jun 28, 2020)

If you are going to use the movable jaw, you should clamp a 1-2-3 block in the vise. That will align the movable jaw with the stationary jaw and improve the accuracy. Best is still to use the DTI on the fixed jaw.



YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Cannot for the life of me figure how to indicate off the fixed jaw without resorting to using a mirror to read the DI.



There should be no reason for having to use a mirror. See pictures below.


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## Dabbler (Jun 28, 2020)

I'm bringing a DTI over to his house tomorrow.  Plunge indicators are okay, but he probably will love to use a DTI.


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## YYCHM (Jun 28, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Best is still to use the DTI on the fixed jaw.



Rudy, I gave up on using the DTI.  Was moving to the point of either it wasn't touching the jaw or it was maxed out.

Maybe my reasoning of the problem is flawed?  If I DI on the extreme left or right end of the jaw and twist the vise to see what the maximum deflection could be and then position to 1/2 of that, should that not get it closer?  That exercise doesn't seem to work at all. 

Craig


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## PeterT (Jun 28, 2020)

Not necessarily Craig because it depends on where the vise is pivoting (which could be almost anywhere). That's why many folks advocate tightening one hold-down bolt more than the other, the looser one being the one that will slide more readily.... but still not a true pivot Before you start reading the dial, just use the DTI ball itself visually get the jaw aligned as close as you can. This will save you lots of spinning needle syndrome. Your eye can see a very tiny gap. So contact the ball on the tight side, traverse to loose side, reduce the gap. Rinse & repeat if necessary. Then when its pretty close, move the table in to read the DTI from there.

Another method is 'lightly bump while traversing'. Again you need to be reasonably close to begin with. btw there are other methods on YouTube, this is just one.


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## YYCHM (Jun 28, 2020)

Just got back from babysitting the grand daughters, a treat as always

Back to playing with this thing again.

I can get her to within 0.005 by removing one bolt entirely but once you're there you can't install the bolt.  I even tried one of my wonky T-Nuts but that only got me to 0.02.  Going to try this thing with the swivel base installed next.






Less than 0.002 in three passes with the swivel base install.  BUT.... now it really looks like over kill, I think I have a RoboCop thing happening here LOL. AND... the base of the vise bumps smack dab into those two bolts holding the swarf cover, more Y travel consumed.  I'll have to crank the head up now to see if I can get a drill bit over it.

Fun and Games....

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jun 29, 2020)

Sounds like you have the process down for aligning it.

Ideally you want much better results: like 1/2thou or less across the fixed jaw. As stated before, if you have to use the movable jaw as a reference, clamp a 1-2-3 block in the vise. It aligns the movable jaw with the fixed jaw for better accuracy.

The swivel base consumes a lot of real estate, which you don’t have a whole lot extra of...


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## PeterT (Jun 29, 2020)

It could be that your casting lug holes are interfering with your ability to fully align. In other words the lugs may not have been milled quite right and the hold down bolts are contacting on either side of the lug itself. More likely explanation is they may have been sized for slightly smaller or metric bolts and/or associated with the swivel base. But you should be able to make it work.

As Rudy says, you should be indicating on the fixed jaw not the movable jaw. Don't worry about the dial reading facing you, the value is pretty much meaningless. You are just looking for needle movement as you traverse across the jaw.

Also (see Rudy picture) try using double washer under the bolt head. You will soon encounter having the jaw set perfectly aligned when vise slightly loose, but the tightening action makes it go out of whack again. Part of that is just experience, going back & forth progressive tightening & checking, but double washers provide a bit of torque slip. I think there are more sophisticated washers specifically for this, but anyways might help.


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## David_R8 (Jun 29, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Also (see Rudy picture) try using double washer under the bolt head. You will soon encounter having the jaw set perfectly aligned when vise slightly loose, but the tightening action makes it go out of whack again. Part of that is just experience, going back & forth progressive tightening & checking, but double washers provide a bit of torque slip. I think there are more sophisticated washers specifically for this, but anyways might help.



Double washers were the ticket for me. 
A single washer just made me pull my hair out. 

Craig, is that a 6” vise?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Double washers were the ticket for me.
> A single washer just made me pull my hair out.
> 
> Craig, is that a 6” vise?



5". 

After 4 hours of getting some very confused measurement results @Dabbler finally figured out the cause of all my problems.  Ends up there is sufficient play in the x-axis Gibb that the table moves as you're trying to square the vise. John will be able to explain it better than I.  Until we come up with a plan as to how to resolve that issue I'm going to have to live with vise not being as square as it should be.

Thanks for all of your help with this John.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jun 29, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> 5".
> 
> After 4 hours of getting some very confused measurement results @Dabbler finally figured out the cause of all my problems.  Ends up there is sufficient play in the x-axis Gibb that the table moves as you're trying to square the vise. John will be able to explain it better than I.  Until we come up with a plan as to how to resolve that issue I'm going to have to live with vise not being as square as it should be.
> 
> ...


Wait... the same axis that gave you and John fits?
ARGH!


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Wait... the same axis that gave you and John fits?
> ARGH!



Yup, the same axis that gave us the Gibb installation grief.

What issue did double washers resolve in terms of setting up your vise?


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## David_R8 (Jun 29, 2020)

Hereafter known as "The Great Gibb Incident of 2020"


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## Dabbler (Jun 29, 2020)

The symptom is that when the X and Y gibbs are completely locked and there is still freedom for the table to move (rotating around the Z axis, if that makes sense).  Just a few thousandths, but enough that rotating the X axis hand wheel yields inconsistent results. Makes lining up the fixed jaw really hard.

Also the holes in the vise need to be drilled out a little bigger, to allow appropriate alignment.

@David_R8 You might try making your own washers on your lathe   I made mine, and a set for Janger - .200 thick, with beveled top edges.


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## Brent H (Jun 29, 2020)

Do you need a better Gib Craig?  What are the dimensions of your current ones.?  I have a couple cast iron gibs from another machine that could be machined if they fit the bill??


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Do you need a better Gib Craig?  What are the dimensions of your current ones.?  I have a couple cast iron gibs from another machine that could be machined if they fit the bill??



I'll let @Dabbler comment on that. The situation is a little complicated.  We would have to pull the Gibb and figure out how to measure it.

Craig


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## Brent H (Jun 29, 2020)

Basically need the length and the height and the thickness of either end.  I believe the pair I Have are about 12 to 14”  long each not sure on other dimension.  I have some other cast iron longer - if yours is 30° bevel or?


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Basically need the length and the height and the thickness of either end.  I believe the pair I Have are about 12 to 14”  long each not sure on other dimension.  I have some other cast iron longer - if yours is 30° bevel or?



It's close to 15" long and tapered both front and back along the flat and tapered in height.  30 deg bevel?  Are you talking the dove tail angle?  The dove tail angle is 30 deg.


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## Brent H (Jun 29, 2020)

Roger that @YYCHobbyMachinist - home in a week or so - if things are still an issue I will measure things up and see what I could send you if you require assistance.


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Roger that @YYCHobbyMachinist - home in a week or so - if things are still an issue I will measure things up and see what I could send you if you require assistance.



Thanks Brent!


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## Dabbler (Jun 29, 2020)

We partially measured the X gibb, but the key will be the gibb angle, and if it is rounded or actually flat.  I've kinda burnt out of this project and have to devote time to the other 30 things on the go....

Still have one thing to move up Bert's stairs, and complete the reassembly of the 15" lathe, to name but 2.


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## YYCHM (Jun 29, 2020)

Man after 3-4 hours tonight I had that vise down to 0.001 over 4.5".  That's less than I can twist the table.  Tighten down the loose bolt and she kicked over.  Back to 0.02.  This is getting tedious.  I'll drill the bolt holes bigger once I have a proper clamping kit, which is tomorrows project.


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## historicalarms (Jun 30, 2020)

Are there not 'set screws" threaded into the table to set the gib resistance that sets how much effort it takes to transverse the table (not the locking screws, they are a separate item), this should also remove any excess dovetail slop to your movement. I'm not in the shop at present and its Been a while since I had the table off mine but I seem to remember some grub screws for setting the slack used in conjunction with the "end screw" that catches the slot in the gib .

  Craig, the reality of these inexpensive off-shore machines is that tolerances attained (precision ground) in the much more expensive machines may never be attained ...no harm in trying to see how good you can actually get it but it could drive you to distraction looking for the unattainable. My experience with my machine is that a .001 trammel is very hard to attain within my usual time frame of "smoke from my ears" frustration....0005 is just a fluke of monumental fortunate proportions. 

    JohnWa, I can commiserate with you on your rotary vice base, until,  to alleviate my frustrations and not make me so reticent to use the angle options of my rotary capable vice, I made it easily returnable to a 0-0 trammel as I could within the limitations of both vice & table.


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## YYCHM (Jun 30, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Are there not 'set screws" threaded into the table to set the gib resistance that sets how much effort it takes to transverse the table (not the locking screws, they are a separate item), this should also remove any excess dovetail slop to your movement. I'm not in the shop at present and its Been a while since I had the table off mine but I seem to remember some grub screws for setting the slack used in conjunction with the "end screw" that catches the slot in the gib .
> 
> Craig, the reality of these inexpensive off-shore machines is that tolerances attained (precision ground) in the much more expensive machines may never be attained ...no harm in trying to see how good you can actually get it but it could drive you to distraction looking for the unattainable. My experience with my machine is that a .001 trammel is very hard to attain within my usual time frame of "smoke from my ears" frustration....0005 is just a fluke of monumental fortunate proportions.
> 
> JohnWa, I can commiserate with you on your rotary vice base, until,  to alleviate my frustrations and not make me so reticent to use the angle options of my rotary capable vice, I made it easily returnable to a 0-0 trammel as I could within the limitations of both vice & table.



No set screws, only the Gibb adjustment screw and the table lock screws.

To date all's I've ever done to align a vise to the table was use a machinists square.  This tramming exercise is a real eye opener for me.

Ya, I know she's no 6000# Bridgeport.

Craig


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## historicalarms (Jun 30, 2020)

first of all, I don't agree that a 150-$ 200 Kurtz type clone is unusable junk, I quite happily use mine most every day I'm in the shop. It does have a .0005 lift to the movable jaw when tightening but that is well within the tolerances of anything I have had to do so far. Not sure how much lift an OEM Kurtz will have, but moveabilty tolerances would require a bit but closer manufacturing tolerances should be tighter for that kind of money difference. Strength-wise & rigidity, I cant see $50 difference let alone many hundreds.

     I brought the re-positioning timeline to a more acceptable level in my BB purchased Kurtz clone  with a couple easy mods. 
     first of all you want to attach a square steel bar to the rotator base of your vice as close as square as you can get between the bolt-down lugs of the base. This bar must be a tight "friction fit" to the T-Slot openings in your table (mine was .625 exactly and requires a bit of a "pry" to remove from the slots)). this bar does not need to be a 0-0 trammel to the bolt lockdowns but as close as you can easily get it.

    Now inspect the base for the meatiest part of the frame, you will need to know where this is shortly.

    Now install the vise to your table and lock the base down, leave the top of vise to rotate as needed to trammel the stationary jaw as close to ") as you can get...disregaurd the deg. markings on the base as they are pretty much meaningless, now lock that to the base with the top locking bolts. 
   Now,  (mine is drilled as close to the top locking bolts as I could get without interfering with their operation) at the meatiest spot in rotational part of the frame of the top of the 1/2 of the vice that also hits a meaty part of the base casting, drill a  straight true, hole through both halves ( I used 1/4 inch in mine). Now insert a 1/4" bolt shank with the threads cut off into the hole...do the same on the other side of the vise jaw, again as close to the lock-down bolt as you can get...insert another bolt. The proper way to do this if you have the equipment & hardware available is to ream a tapered hole to co-inside fit with a tapered pin...

  Now I can remove the pins, unlock the top bolts, turn to any angle I desire for a cut & once finished be back to pretty much a "0" tramel within the tolerances of my machinery within 30 seconds.


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## Dabbler (Jun 30, 2020)

@historicalarms I agree that clones can be very good - stronger than a typical hobby requirement.  I jsut sold my BB/Taiwanese 5"  vise, keeping 3 clones and a genuine Kurt.  The kurt has some nice features, but it is a luxury, and the similar clone preforms just as well.

As in any endevour, there are differing points of view... I have one vise that is keyed and all the others are not.  My big vises do not have rotating bases or keys, and I have no plans to add them.  They live off centre on the table for years before moving them.  Tramming them once per year is no big deal, even if it takes a little effort.


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## YYCHM (Jun 30, 2020)

A big part of this vise mounting problem was that there was never enough wiggle room between the t-nuts, bolts and vise mounting holes to get her square in the first place.  This was just confusing me and John concluded this situation Monday for me.






So today, with my new to me 1/2" clamping kit on hand (@thriller007 and I traded kits, thanks Bill) I drilled the 1/2" vise mounting holes out to 9/16".  Hmmm..... drilling cast iron is way less dramatic than steel, aluminum or brass.






Being a little fed up with tramming, I decided to rig this up and square her to the back edge of the table.  That chunk of steel that is clamped down is the steady rest riser that came with my lathe.  My machinist squares tell me it's as square as my squares, so as good a thing to use as anything else I have.

Using this arrangement proved that there still wasn't enough wiggle room to square it up.  So I tore it all down and drilled the vise mounting holes to 5/8".  Set everything back up, and now we are getting somewhere.  I can square the fixed jaw to the back edge of that table using a machinist square.

So, thinks I, I wonder what tramming will tell me now.  I got 0.005 over 4.5".  I then got her down to 0.003 by loosening the bolts and bumping the vise over.  I can physically twist the table over 0.003 so I stopped there.

Phew... what a wild goose chaise.


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## YYCHM (Jun 30, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Roger that @YYCHobbyMachinist - home in a week or so - if things are still an issue I will measure things up and see what I could send you if you require assistance.



Brent, here is a crude sketch showing the dims of the ends of the Gibb as measured in place.






That washed out number on the thick end is 0.822.  I question the 0.913 measurement as the thin end isn't sticking out of the dove tail to get the caliper on.  As to being tapered in 1, 2 or 3 dimensions is beyond me.

Anyways this should give you an idea as to what it looks like and something to think about.  

I'm not planning to pull the Gibb until I install my DRO which is weeks away unless I can't stand how the machine is performing.

Thanks,

Craig


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## trlvn (Jul 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> ... I can physically twist the table over 0.003 ...


I'm having trouble getting my head around this.  This gib is _far_ from doing what it is supposed to.

If I've followed correctly, you had huge problems reassembling the table because the gib needed to be positioned *above* the bottom of the space it fits into.  Now that it is reassembled, one end (I take it) must not be fully filling the space it is supposed to fill.  

Because you can twist the table, this sounds to me like the gib is undersized at one end--in other words, *not the correct taper [1]*.  In fact the reassembly problem suggests it is not the right size in another dimension.  

Makes me think that the gib really does not go with your machine at all.  OTOH, I imagine it would be extremely difficult to purchase a better replacement.  

Making a better replacement is not trivial, either.  Since the existing gib is the problem, you need some really precise measurements of the space that the gib is supposed to fill.  And then some awfully precise machining (scraping?) of the new part.  Almost certainly has to be surface ground for precision.  

Keith Rucker (Vintage Machinery on Youtube) has done new gibs a couple of times:

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=keith+rucker+machining+a+gib&ia=videos

Craig

[1] Can you put a dial indicator on the machine base and measure how much the table will move (twist) at either end.  That should confirm if the gib is too small at just one end.  And tell you how much too small.


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## Johnwa (Jul 1, 2020)

Grizzly sells a gib for their G0705 round column mill for $30US but won’t ship to Canada.?
https://www.grizzly.com/parts/Grizzly-LONGITUDINAL-GIB/P0705223


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

Craig,

I've questioned whether the table Gibb is correct for the machine as well.  It looks distinctly different from the saddle Gibb which is giving me no problems at all.  I would assume apart from being different lengths the two would have approximately the same proportions..  They don't, but maybe that's just a bad assumption.  Without the proper Gibb to mimic making a better one would be a huge challenge I would imagine.

I was thinking last night that maybe placing a very thin shim between the Gibb and the saddle at the narrow end of the Gibb might have some effect without binding the table.  I might try that this morning.

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jul 1, 2020)

trlvn said:


> I'm having trouble getting my head around this.  This gib is _far_ from doing what it is supposed to.
> 
> If I've followed correctly, you had huge problems reassembling the table because the gib needed to be positioned *above* the bottom of the space it fits into.  Now that it is reassembled, one end (I take it) must not be fully filling the space it is supposed to fill.
> 
> ...



@trlvn : your observations are right on the money. The interaction of the saddle dovetail, the gib, and the table dovetail are critical for a smooth and accurate operation of the assembly. On this machine, there for sure are issues - with any luck, it is just the gib.

To solve the problem, the gib needs to be “scraped in” to properly fit, at the very least. If there are issues with dove tail angles, the job just got massively more complex.

While addressing the gib issue on the table, one may as well look at the y-axis as well. Although that seems to work fine at this time.

And the problem with the lubrication (or lack there of) of the slide ways: there are machined channels (swirls) but no way to get oil into them without removing the table/saddle to access them each time. Oil galleries need to be drilled into the parts so that lubrication can take place with ease.

These machines are built to a price point. Can all the problems be resolved - with enough effort, most likely. Will it take a lot of time? For sure.


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

So this morning I set up like this on both the left hand and right hand sides of the machine.  The table is centered.




 

No amount of Gibb adjusting in both the x and y axis would eliminate 0.002 on the left hand side and 0.003 on the right hand side.  I had tightened the Gibbs to the point where you could barely crank the table and saddle.  So I loosened the Gibbs back to a useable state.

Next I tried tightening the Gibb lock screws to see what effect they would have.  I tightened the saddle first and that had no effect.  Locking the left side table lock had no effect.  When applying the right hand lock the DI swung 0.004 and now there was less than 0.001 (maybe even nil) movement when I pushed and pulled on the table.

Have to think on this now.


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Are there not 'set screws" threaded into the table to set the gib resistance that sets how much effort it takes to transverse the table (not the locking screws, they are a separate item), this should also remove any excess dovetail slop to your movement. I'm not in the shop at present and its Been a while since I had the table off mine but I seem to remember some grub screws for setting the slack used in conjunction with the "end screw" that catches the slot in the gib.



Doug (@historicalarms) , David (@David_R8) Does your machine have the set screws?  My mini-mill had them but no longitudinal adjustments screw.

This might be a simple solution to this issue.


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## RobinHood (Jul 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> now there was less than 0.001 (maybe even nil) movement when I pushed and pulled on the table.



That is actually progress: you may just have to leave the RH gib lock slightly snug all the time to eliminate the free play. Certainly could be a “ workaround” for the time being....


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## David_R8 (Jul 1, 2020)

My machine has gib lock set screws for both the X and Y axis. 
Two on the X, one on the Y. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> That is actually progress: you may just have to leave the RH gib lock slightly snug all the time to eliminate the free play. Certainly could be a “ workaround” for the time being....



I think I beat you to that conclusion.

I backed off the x-axis Gibb adjustment screw until the table moved nice a free and the tightened the right hand gib lock until all the free play was essentially eliminated and found that the table still moves freely enough to be useable.

I discovered that in this configuration the right side of the Gibb is being pushed away from the saddle dove tail by about 0.007 using a feeler gauge.  I can completely insert a 0.006 gauge but a 0.008 won't enter.

I'm going to tram the vise now with my new TDI to see what that's doing.  If it trams ok, then there may be two things I could do.  Stuff a feeler gauge behind the Gibb and leave it there or drill and tap the saddle and install a long set screw with a locking nut on it.  Installing an adjusting set screw on both the left and right hand sides might not be a bad idea.

What do you think?

We know more about how this Gibb is messed up now.  Not tall enough and not thick enough at one end at least.  Who knows what the other end is doing.


……. So now we are getting somewhere.  The vise trammed to 0.004 over 4.5".  Now that that table isn't bouncing around I was able to bump it down to 0.0005 over 4.5".

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

Brent (@Brent H)  here is a shot of that Gibb.


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> My machine has gib lock set screws for both the X and Y axis.
> Two on the X, one on the Y.



Set screws or T screws?


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## Brent H (Jul 1, 2020)

Hey @YYCHobbyMachinist, reading over your post with the gib measurements I have a few concerns with the fact that your gib is tapered in more than one way.


The Gib should remain constant in height along its length.  It should not be high enough to be taking the weight of the table but needs to be consistent to ensure proper fit to the dovetails.

This is depicted in the top sketch of the drawing

:




The second sketch shows what you would see if you planed off the table surface down to the gib.  The intention of the gib is to allow you to tighten it in on the wedge to obtain an equal "x" dimension (basically)  you can see that the taper in the top is equal and opposite the gib so that the gib establishes a proper parallel running surface between the table and the base.  Since the gib is fixed to the table and moves with it, it will always be parallel

The bottom pic shows that the gib should be equal in the other plane so that the height is constant.  This is to allow the table to sit properly on the base so that those swirly oil passages can create a nice slippery surface.  If the gib was tapered in this direction it would tend to then be the piece that rode on the ways and would have load on it from the weight of the table and what you were machining

Your gib seems to taper in 2 directions such that height is diminishing along the length of the gib. - wear?

On the bottom of your table I would think one dovetail is straight and the other tapers.  The base sides should both run parallel to each other.  (Maybe opposite but I can't see that far from here LOL)

For a crude reference but may give you an indication on the gib, if you measure the distance across the dovetails on the base and then measure the distance of them on the top, you can do some math and find out what the taper should be.  Then measure up the gib and see if the taper angle is correct.  If the angle of the gib is too steep the small end will not be in contact with the base properly to establish that parallel sliding fit.







You can see the dotted line in the drawing that is the reference for the base.  There will be a space to allow for the fitting of the gib.  Don't forget to account for that when you do the math for the angle.

The gib for my compound was off by over 0.020" and I think it might not have been original to the lathe.  The new one is excellent.  I think the rule of thumb for gib tapers is 1/4" per foot or about 1.2 degrees - but it still needs to fit your machine, so that would only be ball park


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## CalgaryPT (Jul 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The NUTS of SHAME..... LOL
> 
> I got the T part right but sure blew locating the holes.  Not very good with scribing and center punching that's for sure.



No—the _Nuts of Education._

OK, here's my favourite fabrication trick of all time. I discovered it years ago for finding centers, and finally wrote it down in my shop book this March. I've got lots of fancy center scribers, both mechanical and electronic, but always come back to this method because it always works. In the pic below I exaggerated the error in the two scribed lines just to make the point; but in practice they wouldn't be this far apart. What I like most about the method is it self-compensates for imprecision. In fact, you require a margin of error for this trick to work properly.

You need a Sharpie (I prefer silver) and a cheap carpenter's scribe* (adjustable wood gauge) with a steel point (not pencil). I stopped using marking fluid years ago. Sharpie is cheap and dries instantly.


In the _approximate_ center (as located just by eye) of your stock, scribble a wide Sharpie mark by wiggling the marker perpendicular to the stock's long edge. It doesn't have to be exactly on centre—just wide enough to overlap your margin of error.
Set the carpenter's scribe to the _approximate_ center of the stock's thickness. In fact, *avoid perfection in this step*; either slightly OVER the approximate center or slightly UNDER the approximate center is better than getting it perfect (a few mm off center is best).
Scribe one line; then put the carpenter's scribe on the other side of the stock and scribe a second line.
Place your centre punch in the middle of the two scribed lines and mark the location.**
* Don't use a pair of dividers. You need the flat edge of a carpenter's gauge/scribe for accuracy.
** The human eye is great at finding the center of two lines if they are within its focal length (~22 mm). As this distance decreases, the accuracy goes up exponentially. At a few mm (or just slightly larger than the width of a center punch), most people can locate the center to within a few thousands of an inch.

You'll be amazed at how accurate this trick is. I figured it out years ago when I needed to drill indexing holes in tubing for telescopic legs on tables. I'm sure CNC guys on the forum will laugh at it as your world is different than mine. But I remember being in my late 20's when I figured this out and what a stress reliever it was. It was like when I discovered how to cut a birdsmouth in a rafter without doing any calculations or measuring—a huge time saver.

I also attached the log book page where I documented this, but it may be too difficult to read my chicken scrawl. It may not work for your projects, but is another arrow in the quiver for future reference.


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

Thanks Pete.


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## DPittman (Jul 1, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> No—the _Nuts of Education._
> 
> OK, here's my favourite fabrication trick of all time. I discovered it years ago for finding centers, and finally wrote it down in my shop book this March. I've got lots of fancy center scribers, both mechanical and electronic, but always come back to this method because it always works. In the pic below I exaggerated the error in the two scribed lines just to make the point; but in practice they wouldn't be this far apart. What I like most about the method is it self-compensates for imprecision. In fact, you require a margin of error for this trick to work properly.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly how I do it also and it works very well (suppressing my urge to add an exclamation mark).


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## David_R8 (Jul 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Set screws or T screws?



Set screws with lock nuts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Hey @YYCHobbyMachinist, reading over your post with the gib measurements I have a few concerns with the fact that your gib is tapered in more than one way.
> 
> 
> The Gib should remain constant in height along its length.  It should not be high enough to be taking the weight of the table but needs to be consistent to ensure proper fit to the dovetails.
> ...



Hey Brent, I agree with your description and my Y-axis Gibb looked to me like it would meet that criteria.  The X-axis Gibb, well, it just looked plain weird to me.  The height h in your first sketch appeared to taper away from the adjustment slot side and in fact has a rather obvious 2" long ground out spot on the every end of it.  John though that might have been done to make it fit?  As far as I could tell by eye balling it, one side in the other plane was flat and the opposite side was tapered but appeared to be double tapered.  By that I mean a taper began and then increased mid span (if that makes any sense).  I don't think that Gibb is accomplishing much on the narrow end at all.  Setting the Gibb lock on the left side doesn't lock the table every well.  Anyways that's my take on it, John's and Rudy's observations may differ.

I wonder how I could make a casting of it and send it to you????

Craig


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## CalgaryPT (Jul 1, 2020)

DPittman said:


> Thats exactly how I do it also and it works very well (suppressing my urge to add an exclamation mark).



1) Then why didn't you tell me years ago instead of leaving me to figure it out with all my mistakes LOL?
2) I appreciate the absence of the exclamation mark.  The Kool-Aid is pretty sweet right?


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Set screws with lock nuts.



Gee that sounds like a PITA to use.  Why would they use lock nuts on table locks?  Set screws with lock nuts sounds like Gibb adjusting screws to me.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jul 1, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Gee that sounds like a PITA to use. Why would they use lock nuts on table locks? Set screws with lock nuts sounds like Gibb adjusting screws to me.
> 
> Craig



Yup they are a PITA. Plan to change that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

Brent (@Brent H ), Here is my take on what I was looking at.


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## thriller007 (Jul 1, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Yup they are a PITA. Plan to change that!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey Craig it would not hurt to contact @kylemp to see if he has another gib in all his spare parts from his parts machine if you have not done so yet.


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## YYCHM (Jul 1, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Hey Craig it would not hurt to contact @kylemp to see if he has another gib in all his spare parts from his parts machine if you have not done so yet.



Good idea... Thanks!!!


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## trlvn (Jul 2, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Brent (@Brent H ), Here is my take on what I was looking at.
> 
> View attachment 9855


I'm just spitballing, but...

There is no way that the gib would be designed to have a taper that changes.  Gibs like this should have a consistent taper from end to end.  As Brent said, the height would be consistent too.  

One possibility is that when the machine was being constructed, there was something wrong with the dovetail ways.  (Maybe something slipped during machining the ways?)  Maybe they 'salvaged' the machine by butchering the gib?  (I'm picturing a ham-handed guy with a belt sander!!)  OTOH, you've had some experienced guys examine your machine so maybe I'm out in left field.

If you want to test for certain, you'll need a precision machinist straightedge.








Use bluing to test the surfaces of the dovetails, etc.

OTOH, using the locking screws seems to be able to take the gross movement out of the table.  If you are happy with that, live with it until it becomes an obstacle (if ever).

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jul 2, 2020)

@trlvn , dabbler and I went and had a look at Craig’s machine. Other than the gib being placed on a surface plate prior to our visit, there were no precision measurements taken or blueing carried out as we felt it was important that the machine be re-assembled (the original problem) and made functional.  This was achieved when we were able to install the gib - with some effort, and were able to mount the table and have it move with reasonable force. We deburred, stoned and otherwise improved the mating surfaces with the tools and time we had.

We do agree, there needs to be a thorough inspection, including precision measurements, in order to find out where the problem(s) lie and then repair the mill. The ideal setting for those operations are not a cramped basement. The machine would have to be disassembled, brought up, and then taken to a shop that has the proper equipment. A rough estimate of repair time is 100 hours.

I think the gib is the issue and I would start with that.


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## DPittman (Jul 2, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> rough estimate of repair time is 100 hours.


Good lord for that amount of work a fellow would be far better of throwing the mill in the scrap pile and starting with something else. No?


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## RobinHood (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, if you ever worked on an machine that needed work, you will know how labour intensive it is.

Here are “Pros” talking about a Bridgeport Mill (2014 US $s)





Here is the link to the thread:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...spection/bridgeport-way-scraping-cost-296446/

If you don’t have all the machines and need to “farm stuff out” the price / time spent on the project goes up.

@DPittman: How long did it take you to build your nice scope rail? Start to finish counting time to make any missing tool, getting stock, etc.


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## YYCHM (Jul 2, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> The machine would have to be disassembled, brought up, and then taken to a shop that has the proper equipment. A rough estimate of repair time is 100 hours.



And we all know that's not going to happen.  If it migrates out of the basement It ain't coming back.

Craig


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## Tom O (Jul 2, 2020)

There is always the chance a previous owner screwed up the gib not the factory.


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## DPittman (Jul 2, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Well, if you ever worked on an machine that needed work, you will know how labour intensive it is.
> 
> Here are “Pros” talking about a Bridgeport Mill (2014 US $s)
> View attachment 9856
> ...


I'm not disputing on how much time it would take to fix the machine I'm just saying that it might not be worth it.  If one had all the necessary equipment and knowledge himself it might be justifiable but if you have to "farm" any of that expertise out,  a different milling machime might start to look like a better option.


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## RobinHood (Jul 2, 2020)

That is exactly the type of tough question that needs to be asked. Use the mill as is, or get another machine if the performance is not up to the OP‘s expectations.

Another option could be to work on the machine over time and slowly improve it as experience is gained. Could be a great teaching project.


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## David_R8 (Jul 2, 2020)

I find it hard to believe that a machine which doesn't appear to have ever been disassembled, has somehow been damaged so severely that  it requires a total rebuild/.
I'm going to pull the X-axis gib out of my machine tomorrow and measure it for comparison purposes.


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## YYCHM (Jul 2, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I find it hard to believe that  a machine that doesn't appear to have ever been disassembled, has somehow been damaged so severely that  it requires a total rebuild/.
> I'm going to pull the X-axis gib out of my machine tomorrow and measure it for comparison purposes.



Take photos and post your dimensions please.

Craig


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## Dabbler (Jul 2, 2020)

@David_R8 I am certain that the anomolies we found are right from the factory.  I think it is possible that the gib angle was wrong, so a guy fixed it... badly.  I think this is a very capable machine with a serious problem.  It is possible to do good work on it, but in ways adapted to this particular machine.

There can be a lot learned on this machine, but to do precision work, an upgrade is necessary, either in the form of a rebuild or a new machine trade up.


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## trlvn (Jul 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> ... tried tightening the Gibb lock screws to see what effect they would have. I tightened the saddle first and that had no effect. Locking the left side table lock had no effect. When applying the right hand lock the DI swung 0.004 and now there was less than 0.001 (maybe even nil) movement when I pushed and pulled on the table.


To be clear, I think the practical course is to use the machine as described above.  The gib may be a poor fit but the locking screws seem to be able to compensate pretty well.

I think we all get a bit OCD about machine precision.  As long as the machine works to create parts with acceptable tolerances, then all is good!  If the parts coming off this machine are too far out AND it is because of the gib, THEN figure out a solution.  

Elsewhere on the internet, it seems that Richard King is considered a top notch machine rebuilder.  However, I believe he generally starts with the question "How precise does the machine need to be?"  IOW, every rebuilt machine still has a level of imprecision no matter how much money is spent.

Craig


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## Johnwa (Jul 3, 2020)

I agree use it as it is I’m sure @YYCHobbyMachinist just wants to use it for a while.
At some time though it would be worthwhile to take it apart and inspect and thoroughly measure the dovetails on the table and saddle.  Especially all the angles.  The fact that the gib only fit in one particular spot tells me there is something up with the dovetails.  I can’t visualize what it would be though.  At that point a decision what sort of rebuild if any should be done.


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

My gib has the following dimensions:
14” long
1.2755 wide/tall at the outboard end 






.3735 thick at the same end by the adjustment slot 







1.221 wwide/tall at the inboard end






.2092 thick at the inboard end. 







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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

This what it looks like installed. 

















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## Brent H (Jul 3, 2020)

Hi @David_R8 , when you measured was this dimension the same at both ends?


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Hi @David_R8 , when you measured was this dimension the same at both ends?
> 
> View attachment 9860



This is the other end 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






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## YYCHM (Jul 3, 2020)

@David_R8 Did you remove it to measure it?  Any images of the overall Gibb?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> @David_R8 Did you remove it to measure it? Any images of the overall Gibb?
> 
> Craig



I did remove it to measure it. 
I didn’t take an over all picture though I can. 
The number “40” is stamped on the edge near the adjustment slot. Not sure what that means. 


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## Brent H (Jul 3, 2020)

@David_R8  - Ah HA!  So your gib is pinned to the base and thus the base has the taper cut into it and the table should then have parallel dovetail ways.  The dimension top to bottom on your gib should be the same (white measure lines on the photo)




The top white arrow is pointing to the gap between the top of the gib and the table - ample room for the gib to be made with these faces parallel.   The red arrow is pointing at a wee landing? maybe just a mark?

I am trying to calculate what the angle would be for the taper of the gib and it would appear to be sin-1(.3735-.2092/14) =0.672 degree.    @YYCHobbyMachinist gib appears to be sin-1(0.458-0.265/15) = 0.737 degrees.  that would be a difference of 0.065 degrees.  The height difference from 1.2755 to 1.221 on @David_R8  s gib is probably just bad finish with @YYCHobbyMachinist  1.182 being a bit worse.

If I have the length of cast iron in the right width it would not be impossible to machine a really close gib that you could then hand scrap to fit.  The 1.182 is pretty close to 30 mm and probably should be 32.5 to be the right height overall.....interesting stuff


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

Mine is a 1980 Long Chang LC-30A. Aside from the VFD conversion it is completely stock and had never been disassembled.

What make is this mill? 

There are probably a few folks over at Hobby-Machinist.com who have the same mill who would be willing to measure their gib.


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## Dabbler (Jul 3, 2020)

@David_R8 - you see how your gibb runs in contact with the horizontal part of the dovetail at the thicker end?  A properly installed gibb, properly made, will have the gibb running on the horizontal part of the dovetail for the entire length.  Even yours appears to be riding off that part of the dovetail.


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @David_R8 - you see how your gibb runs in contact with the horizontal part of the dovetail at the thicker end? A properly installed gibb, properly made, will have the gibb running on the horizontal part of the dovetail for the entire length. Even yours appears to be riding off that part of the dovetail.



Perhaps that’s the way they are designed? 


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## YYCHM (Jul 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Mine is a 1980 Long Chang LC-30A. Aside from the VFD conversion it is completely stock and had never been disassembled.
> 
> What make is this mill?
> 
> There are probably a few folks over at Hobby-Machinist.com who have the same mill who would be willing to measure their gib.



House of Tools branded.  Has no model number on it anywhere that I can find.

Guys, even with this Gibb glitch, I'm tickled pink with my purchase.  As far as I know, I'm the second owner and in general it appears minty with little use.  Any swarf I have found on it has been aluminum.  

Man... I stepped up from 1/2HP and 100# to 2HP and 600# for a price that was well within my budget.  It is the max size I could ever get into my basement shop and in fact is maybe a little too big.

After figuring out the Gibb lock work around it's well within my accuracy needs at this point in time.

Will keep poking at the Gibb problem, but in the mean time I'll be using her.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Jul 3, 2020)

I would dare say that every RF30 and clone is exactly the same. And there’s tons of folks turning out high quality work on them. 
I’m very happy that the issue got sorted out for you Craig. 
Well done to everyone who contributed thoughts and hands on help. Great community effort!


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## YYCHM (Jul 3, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I’m very happy that the issue got sorted out for you Craig.



I wouldn't say the issue is sorted out yet, but rather understood and a tolerable in term solution was arrived at.

To muddy the waters member @kylemp is sitting on a spare table and saddle but is reluctant to let the Gibb go and I can understand that.  We wouldn't really know if it fits my machine without trying it.  His table and saddle may be the solution down the road?

I assumed every RF30 clone would be the same but perhaps not.  Your mill has a different table locking arrangement than mine.

Ya, we have some great people on this forum @Dabbler has probably donated 10+ hours hands on time to this issue. @RobinHood 4+ hours hands on.  @Brent H is standing by to make me a new Gibb.  We will figure it out.

Craig


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## CalgaryPT (Jul 3, 2020)

trlvn said:


> I think we all get a bit OCD about machine precision.  As long as the machine works to create parts with acceptable tolerances, then all is good!  If the parts coming off this machine are too far out AND it is because of the gib, THEN figure out a solution.
> 
> Elsewhere on the internet, it seems that Richard King is considered a top notch machine rebuilder.  However, I believe he generally starts with the question "How precise does the machine need to be?"  IOW, every rebuilt machine still has a level of imprecision no matter how much money is spent.
> 
> Craig



That's advice worth framing, and to live by.


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## YYCHM (Jul 3, 2020)

You know what..... Apart from the Gibb installation issue, if my new vise had a reference surface to mount it with a machinist square, I'd probably be oblivious to the table wiggle issue and still find that it's doing what I needed to do LOL.  Come to think of it, I performaned  that exercise with the T-Nuts.


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## YYCHM (Jul 4, 2020)

@Dabbler / @RobinHood could you please post an image or link to the pressure oiler nipples (?) you suggested I install on the saddle to lubricate the table and saddle dovetails.  The only things I'm familiar with are Gits oilers and grease gun nipples.  I want to start gathering the bits and pieces needed to install the dovetail oiling ports.  Also need to know where to source them from.

Thanks,

Craig


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2020)

A gits oiler would work just fine.  you need a pressure oiler for it however.  The ones I am familiar with (I don't have one any more) look like a 1.5" diameter syringe, except you push on the body, and develop the pressure by doing that.  The nipples I am referring to look like grease nipples - I don't know if there's a difference.

Every once in a while I look on the internet for a pressure oiler, but they are expensive and I don't need one for my machines, so I never end up buying one.


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2020)

[update] I can't find any of the lock on high pressure oilers on the internet...  I don't know why...


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## RobinHood (Jul 4, 2020)

Here is a link to a pressure oiler that is used with regular zerk (grease) fittings:
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976709






This one is used with Gits oilers or zerk fittings.
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976402


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## Dabbler (Jul 5, 2020)

The bottom one is exactly like the one I used to have (but in red)!!


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## RobinHood (Jul 5, 2020)

Here is my German Made Hallbauer. Seems Acklands-Grainger is selling them.






I modified a regular grease gun for pressure-oiling the Bridgeport Mill before I installed central (one shot) lube. Worked great. Got “lazy” to lube the 9 points (some were pretty tough to get to) hence the central lube upgrade.


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## YYCHM (Jul 5, 2020)

I have 5 X 6mm and 3X  8mm spare Gits oilers and know where to get more 8mm (maybe).  Would those work along with this https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976402 ?  Why wouldn't a regular trigger style oil can suffice?

Where to drill the lubrication ports is the next question.  I take it we are trying to get oil down to the horizonal dove tail flats that the table and saddle ride on?

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jul 5, 2020)

The reason for the pressure oiler is to force oil along horizontal/vertical passages. Unpressurized oiling system rely on gravity to distribute the oil. On a mill, oil points are usually in the saddle -> the table ways are above; therefore, gravity feed does not work. Hence the pressure oiler. You don’t really want oil points in the table -> very difficult to keep clean, and can interfere with clamping of parts.

As far as location on your mill specifically: depends what tools you have to drill oil passages.

Yes, ALL sliding surfaces need a supply of oil.


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## YYCHM (Jul 5, 2020)

I was thinking of drilling the table and installing Gits oilers below the table surface?  Maybe I should drill the table ways on the saddle and intersect those passages with a passages drilled on the front and back of the table?  Same idea for the saddle to base ways only up side down and the intersecting passages coming in from the sides of the saddle?  I suppose with that arrangement I could install zerk fittings and really pressure the oil in.

Was thinking when the time comes (I'm going to wait until I have DRO scales to install) I would take the table and saddle to someone with a functioning mill to have all the holes drilled in one go.  Along with the lubrications passages,  and DRO mounting holes I will want to add x-axis Gibb adjustment screw holes as well.

Craig


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## Brent H (Jul 12, 2020)

Hey Craig,

this is what I have in cast iron :





Just over 14.5”









The narrower piece is less than an inch wide (.900) and less than 3/4 thick (.700). Not sure if either piece would work?


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## YYCHM (Jul 12, 2020)

The wider piece would probably work.  The narrow piece is too narrow.


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## YYCHM (Aug 1, 2020)

DRO install phase I...….






After much agonizing over which side of the mill to install my DRO display, I finally concluded as @David_R8 did the right side is the only real option.  Hell, I even agonized over what size cap screws to use LOL.  Ended up using 1/4-20 as I have a drill bit of the appropriate size, the correct size drill bit for a M5 screw kind of eluded me.






As you can see, the LH side of the mill gets a little crowded with the belt cover open.  I was sorely tempted as the RH side bumps into the down feed handles by a smidge.

Man cast iron drills and taps nicely, that was the easy part

Monday I take the table and saddle over to @RobinHood to have lubrication ports drilled, Gibb adjustment screw holes installed and DRO scale holes drilled and tapped.

More to come...….


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## David_R8 (Aug 1, 2020)

Looking good @YYCHobbyMachinist!


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## YYCHM (Aug 4, 2020)

Well..... I just spend the last two days with Rudy (@RobinHood) from 10am to 5pm non-stop installing oiling ports, x-axis Gibb adjustment screws and x-axis DRO scale mounting screws in my table and saddle.  Rudy also took some dovetail measurements and did some fine tuning (aka scraping) of my saddle dovetails and Gibbs.  I'll let Rudy explain what he found regarding that.

Monday was essentially spend installing the lubrication ports in the table and saddle.






For the Gibb side of the y-axis we drilled a 1/8" through the saddle, then intersected that hole with another 1/8" hole, and installed a grease fitting.  Further more we drilled a 1/8" hole in the Gibb and recessed a channel across that on the stationary side of the Gibb to accommodate some Gibb adjustment movement.  Oil can always reach that hole in the Gibb and lubricated the sliding side. Rudy really knows his stuff I tell you.






The other side of the y-axis is the same arrangement but of course there is no Gibb.  Notice how that vertical hole intersects a curly oil groove.  That was a bit of dumb luck as you will see.






For the x-axis we decided to leverage off two bolt holes already in the table rather than drill two more.  The plan here is to drill through the bolt and install a press fit grease fitting, so all's we had to do was drill the 1/8" intersecting hole. In this case we didn't luck out and intersect a curly oiling groove and had to mill a shallow channel over to it.  Once again the Gibb was drilled 1/8" and an adjustment channel milled.






This the back side of the x-axis.

By the time we got this all done it was 5pm and I was exhausted so we called it quits, tomorrow was another day.

Lots of learning was involved here including how to drive a full size manual Bridgeport  Rudy is very much a hands on instructor.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Aug 4, 2020)

Well done!
Props to both you and @RobinHood!


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## YotaBota (Aug 4, 2020)

+1


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## Hruul (Aug 5, 2020)

Very nice work guys.


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## thriller007 (Aug 5, 2020)

What do you use to get all the symmetrical grooves in there? And after you are done with your machine feel free to come work on mine.


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## YYCHM (Aug 5, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> What do you use to get all the symmetrical grooves in there? And after you are done with your machine feel free to come work on mine.



Those circular oils grooves are original to the machine.  We just modified things such that oil can be pumped in to reach them and the sliding side of the Gibbs.


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## Dabbler (Aug 5, 2020)

Fantastic work!  I imagined it would be a huge amount of work... Now at least there will be oil and that will slow down any further way deterioration.

-- did the measurements in X improve when it was reassembled?


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## historicalarms (Aug 5, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> DRO install phase I...….
> 
> View attachment 10442
> 
> ...


 
  Yes that top is always in the road... I just removed the top lid forever on my 30. The belts are high enough that there is absolutely no danger of becoming entangled in a pulley. You have to fully open it anyways to do any belt changes and that is the only time an operator will be within the danger zone. I store the lid behind the column so it is there for re-sale and quick access to the speed chart.

   Edited to add: just to clarify, I leave the bottom pan part of the belt guards intact...just removed the top lid. the bottom of the pan still encases all the belt drives & will deflect any errant long bars or tool handles that I might not be watching close enough.


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## RobinHood (Aug 5, 2020)

Back in post #227 of this thread, Craig asked the group for help installing the table gib. @Dabbler and I went over to Craig’s and managed to install the gib by shimming it up off the saddle so that the machine at least became usable. Then there was the problem with tramming in the vise because the table has ”slop” in Y (about 2-3 thou) on the gib adjusting screw side. It was overcome by permanently having the RH gib lock push against the gib to take up the slop.

While the table and saddle were at my shop, we had a look at it. The table dove tails were measured over pins (well, a 9/16” and a 5/8” end mill shank actually since I don’t have any gage pins larger than 0.500”). The actual measurement does not matter, we just wanted to see if the DTs are parallel - they were (deviation anywhere along the table was about 2-3 tenths). I call that good.

Next we used a Grade A straight edge to check the table’s bearing surfaces on the saddle. They were not very good. Lots of light shone through underneath. We draw filed the surfaces until the straight edge was showing equal light distribution. Sliding the saddle on the table produced enough “shiny” high spots (clearly visible in the bright sunlight), which were scraped off. We repeated that process until we got the table to slide well on the saddle. We did the same with the gib / table / saddle combo.

(Richard King and any of the other scraping gods would probably have a heart attack if they read how it did this).

Please note: what I did here was to make the mill more functional by correcting the major bearing surface problems. It is just a start down the road of scraping / blueing / checking all the surfaces to each other. It would probably take a few days to do this effectively with power tools and quite a bit longer with hand tools only. But, the gib can now be installed without a fight and no paper shimming is required.

So the gib: it does have a slight bend (a thou or two) in the center. I don’t think it is so bad that it can’t be salvaged. The bigger problem is the taper angle is not quite correct; the thin end is too thick (or the thick end too thin) by about 2-3 thou. The same amount that Craig sees as table slop in Y. The way to correct that is to accurately measure the error, surface grind the new geometry and then scrape to fit. Or it could all be step scraped out. Possibly a project for the future?

In the mean time we installed “push screws” 1.25” from each saddle end to take up the slop. The gib locks can thus be used as normal.

Craig will make brass pads for all his gib locking screws and the new push screws so that the steel does not bear directly on the cast iron (like is does from factory) and mar up the gib surface.


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## YYCHM (Aug 5, 2020)

The x-axis Gibb installed without a glitch






And the table just glides back and forth smooth as silk by hand.  What a difference Rudy's scraping made!

DRO install phase II complete.











I now have the x-axis reading, thanks to @RobinHood drilling and tapping my table and saddle.

Thanks Rudy!!!!!

And..... killed a long overdue to-do item.

Made brass pads for all of my Gibb locking screws.






Craig


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## RobinHood (Aug 5, 2020)

Thanks for the compliments guys.

Not all of the DRO mounting hole drilling/tapping was smooth sailing... they are M4x0.7






This Is what happens when you power tap into a blind hole and don’t pay attention.... yeah, I turned the spindle off in time, but did not “dead-stop” it with the brake, rather let it coast - - - to a “crunch”.

The good news was that we got to practice our tap-extraction skills...

Both the hole and threads were saved in the end.


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## PeterT (Aug 5, 2020)

I did my brass pads a little overly complicated with a bearing ball in between. So it was near frictionless torque but applied axial force to the gib. Depending on how much thread you have in the table I guess you could just stick the brass slug it in the hole, tighten the bolt & it should self-align to dovetail angle. Or you could drill a recess hole in the bolt for a matching stem on the pad & therefore the pad could be quite short if you are running low on thread. Either way you have to make the dovetail angle so it might be beneficial to leaving the brass longer so you have something to hold onto in the mill vise to mill the angle.

Another option is just a brass ended bolt with a hemi shape. Or maybe a brass bolt since we don't gronk on them? But that will be point contact instead of the full footprint of a bevelled foot. I was very tempted to drill the hole larger so I could accommodate a larger pad with more surface area but I chickened out. It seemed to lock positively enough. For some reason my 935 mill is a lot more positive & I cant really figure out why. Its just the plain vanilla bolt. I can set a bit of drag & sneak up on a DRO number reliably. My RF-45 would drift by tightening until the remedy.


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## PeterT (Aug 5, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> The good news was that we got to practice our tap-extraction skills...
> Both the hole and threads were saved in the end.



Whew! Good save. On blind holes I usually break out my homebrew. It slips in the chuck jaws or collet to guide axially.

I've never used those extractors before. Do the fingers go into the flutes? What do you do if its got chips packed in there?


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## RobinHood (Aug 5, 2020)

Yes, the extractor set comes with 2, 3 or 4 fingers in various sizes each to go inside the flutes of the broken tap. The biggest challenge is getting enough of the flutes cleared out to insert the fingers. In our case we were tapping CI, so a little work with a pick and compressed air cleared the flutes. The next challenge is to get the tap piece to unjam from the threads that it has already formed. Once that is achieved, the tap usually comes out. Patience is king. Any slight movement is good news. Probably took about 15 min to get it out. I have spent hours in the past to remove broken taps (when the part needed to be saved).

 Nice home made tap holder. Must give you lots of control.

Yeah, I also usually leave the collet just snug to allow the tap to slip (it was obviously too tight this time). My problem in this case was 100% inattention at a critical time; the other 3 M4 holes and two 10-24 holes were power tapped just fine.


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## PeterT (Aug 5, 2020)

On my list of useful tooling is kind of a mini annular cutter that would cut a slightly oversize ring leaving the broken tap in the middle. I made a hack job one from O-1 & it actually worked OK despite being a hand Dremeled tooth affair. You kind of peck drill with fluid, clean chips but it makes progress. The goal is remove a slightly oversize plug of metal along with the tap remnant of course, Loctite a slug of native material in the hole & ideally save the valuable part. I think just having the emergency tool it in a drawer would emanate enough powerful JuJu to never break a tap again. LOL


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## YYCHM (Aug 5, 2020)

More progress...…  I installed the front and back x-axis oiling point grease fittings.






Front grease fitting.






Back grease fitting.

Pretty ease actually.  Chuck up the 1/4" bolt on the lathe and drill through it with a 1/8" bit, then drill the head 3/16" the depth of the press fit grease nipple attachment barrel.  Press the nipple into the bolt head with the vise and voila.

I tested them with my grease gun and they flowed grease so they should work with oil.


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## trlvn (Aug 6, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> ...Back grease fitting.
> 
> Pretty ease actually. Chuck up the 1/4" bolt on the lathe and drill through it with a 1/8" bit, then drill the head 3/16" the depth of the press fit grease nipple attachment barrel. Press the nipple into the bolt head with the vise and voila.


I've never used an oiling system with a pump gun.  Do you have links to the fittings and gun you are using?

How much pressure will it take to inject the oil?  Any concern that the nipple may work itself out of the drilled hole due to that pressure (and lube)? 

Craig


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## RobinHood (Aug 6, 2020)

You are looking for one of these types:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976709

or this:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976402

the fittings are standard grease zerks. Just using oil in them iso grease. because they are the same, many folks think they have to use grease on their machines where it should be way oil.

the oil pressure will not be very high as they are designed to be in a “lost oil” system (ie open; oil will be able to escape between the surfaces before the pressure builds enough to drive out the fitting)


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## Chicken lights (Aug 6, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> You are looking for one of these types:
> 
> https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976709
> 
> ...


Do we have a grease thread? I’d be interested in learning more but don’t want to get off topic in this one


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## YYCHM (Aug 6, 2020)

Chicken lights said:


> Do we have a grease thread? I’d be interested in learning more but don’t want to get off topic in this one



Start a new thread under "Looking for Answers" and invite folks to contribute.


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## YYCHM (Aug 6, 2020)

trlvn said:


> I've never used an oiling system with a pump gun.  Do you have links to the fittings and gun you are using?
> 
> How much pressure will it take to inject the oil?  Any concern that the nipple may work itself out of the drilled hole due to that pressure (and lube)?
> 
> Craig



Haven't sourced a proper oiler yet, they appear to be kind of elusive. 

I did order this https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/grease-fitting-cleaning-tool/A-p4270160e to try.   I shouldn't need to pump oodles of oils in, so maybe it will be ok.

If push comes to shove  a grease gun can be modified to work.

Craig


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## Dabbler (Aug 6, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist  that princess auto tool is a great find!


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## Brent H (Aug 6, 2020)

Hey @YYCHobbyMachinist 

This is what I bought:  https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/oregon-pre-loaded-grease-gun-1-5-oz-0545604p.html#srp

take out the grease and fill with way oil - works great


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## Brent H (Aug 6, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist 

That unit has a more pointed end.  They do sell ones for the zerks: https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/12PB20

https://www.amazon.ca/Oregon-54-021...d=1&keywords=push+lube&qid=1596735019&sr=8-35

https://www.amazon.ca/Lumax-LX-1174...=1&keywords=push+lube&qid=1596735154&sr=8-126


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## RobinHood (Aug 6, 2020)

Brent H said:


> @YYCHobbyMachinist
> 
> That unit has a more pointed end.  They do sell ones for the zerks: https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/12PB20
> 
> ...



yup, that’s the ones. I was in a rush earlier and could only find the “pointy” ones.


YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Haven't sourced a proper oiler yet, they appear to be kind of elusive.
> 
> I did order this https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/grease-fitting-cleaning-tool/A-p4270160e to try.   I shouldn't need to pump oodles of oils in, so maybe it will be ok.
> 
> ...



the grease fitting cleaning tool may work too if it has enough capacity to do at least one oil point. then just re-fill and repeat.


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## YYCHM (Aug 7, 2020)

DRO install phase III complete...….  The y-axis.
















Took the better part of a day and a half.  Fabricator I am not

Thursday I sourced the mounting plate material from MSM and drilled and tapped the mounting holes in the base and saddle.  Went pretty good considering I was winging it with a hand drill.

Today I fabricated the mounting plate and that's where things really bogged down.  The mounting plate stands an inch away from the saddle mounting points so I had to fashion some stand offs on the lathe.  Now marking the locations of the saddle screw holes on the mounting plate became a real head scratcher.  I ended up sticking two closely fitting nails with their heads cut off in the saddle screw holes that stood proud an inch and used the nail points to mark the plate hole locations, it worked.  There was a lot of measuring, marking, cutting, re-mounting, measuring, marking and cutting before I finally had the plate cut out to my satisfaction.  Phew...….

I don't like this arrangement with the stand offs actually but the only other way I can think of is to mount the plate directly to the saddle and use some sort of Z moulding to tie the reader to the plate.  I may go that way in the future should I spot some suitable Z moulding.  The mounting plate should be salvageable.

As I said..... fabricator I am not

Phase IV  is the z-axis, but that's a whole different problem and will take some time that thought.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Aug 7, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> DRO install phase III complete...….  The y-axis.
> 
> View attachment 10533
> 
> ...


Looking good Craig!
FWIW I drilled all 20 or holes for mine with my trusty Ridgid cordless drill. Fatiguing to say the least...


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## YYCHM (Aug 7, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Looking good Craig!
> FWIW I drill all 20 or holes for mine with my trusty Ridgid cordless drill. Fatiguing to say the least...



20 holes?  I have 8 so far.

Can't for the life of me figure out how to mount the swarf covers LOL.


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## DPittman (Aug 7, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> 20 holes?  I have 8 so far.
> 
> Can't for the life of me figure out how to mount the swarf covers LOL.


On one of my scales I used velcro on the scale to hold it to the scale and then put in little rubber pad to keep it from vibrating.


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## YYCHM (Aug 7, 2020)

DPittman said:


> On one of my scales I used velcro on the scale to hold it to the scale and then put in little rubber pad to keep it from vibrating.



I like that out-of-box thinking!  Who said they have to be screwed down in the first place.


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## PeterT (Aug 7, 2020)

The only thing I would watch for is machine casting surfaces are typically un-square and irregular unless they have been machined (and even then sometimes). My RF-45 had a mean draft angle on the base so I couldn't mount flush like that. I'm not sure if this is your situation,  just illustrating where to look.

A useful strategy is threading some holes in your mounting plate to accommodate small jack screws. These allow you to tweak plate/scale true to the movement axis but still be able to reasonably tighten the whole assembly because the screws are just making point contact on the frame for alignment purposes. You don't want the DRO to be loose because machine vibration can cause display/measurement issues down the road. If the assembly is just dampened like with a rubber gasket between surfaces, I think that's fine. You really don't want scales misalignment or drifting off axis. Some scales & reader heads are more tolerant to twist than others but its best to get alignment it as close as possible by running a DTI down the length by displacing the table. Some DRO's specify a maximum runout (usually within a couple thou). Maybe check the manual.


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## David_R8 (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterT said:


> The only thing I would watch for is machine casting surfaces are typically un-square and irregular unless they have been machined (and even then sometimes). My RF-45 had a mean draft angle on the base so I couldn't mount flush like that. I'm not sure if this is your situation, just illustrating where to look.
> 
> A useful strategy is threading some holes in your mounting plate to accommodate small jack screws. These allow you to tweak plate/scale true to the movement axis but still be able to reasonably tighten the whole assembly because the screws are just making point contact on the frame for alignment purposes. You don't want the DRO to be loose because machine vibration can cause display/measurement issues down the road. If the assembly is just dampened like with a rubber gasket between surfaces, I think that's fine. You really don't want scales misalignment or drifting off axis. Some scales & reader heads are more tolerant to twist than others but its best to get alignment it as close as possible by running a DTI down the length by displacing the table. Some DRO's specify a maximum runout (usually within a couple thou). Maybe check the manual.



Indeed. 
I addressed this problem by tweaking the angle bracket till it was square to the scale. Worked like a charm. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Aug 8, 2020)

This needs no explanation...….





















That last digit drives me insane LOL.


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## David_R8 (Aug 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> This needs no explanation...….
> 
> View attachment 10549
> 
> ...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DPittman (Aug 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> This needs no explanation...….
> 
> View attachment 10549
> 
> ...


Yes that takes some getting used to doesn't it.  
Have you gotten the mid point calculation feature figured out?...I haven't been able to.


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## YYCHM (Aug 8, 2020)

@Dabbler is that WOW that's good or WOW tha


DPittman said:


> Yes that takes some getting used to doesn't it.
> Have you gotten the mid point calculation feature figured out?...I haven't been able to.



Easy-Peasy.  Touch off your edge finder on one side and zero that axis.  Move to the oppose face and touch off again then hit 1/2 and what ever axis you are working on, then move that axis until your read zero or 0.000blaaa


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## DPittman (Aug 8, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> @Dabbler is that WOW that's good or WOW tha
> 
> 
> Easy-Peasy.  Touch off your edge finder on one side and zero that axis.  Move to the oppose face and touch off again then hit 1/2 and what ever axis you are working on, then move that axis until your read zero or 0.000blaaa


K thanks I will try that


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## Dabbler (Aug 8, 2020)

wow, that's very nice!


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## PeterT (Aug 8, 2020)

I use center function a lot, very useful.

One thing to get burned in the noggin is edge compensation. For example if your DRO X reads conventional direction meaning increasing positive numbers as spindle goes right, then when you contact the left edge of your block with a 0.200" diameter edge finder, you enter <negative> 0.100 so it registers zero over the edge and positive numbers to the right. If you edge find on the RHS of block you enter +.100 and now read negative DRO numbers relative to that edge zero. Its not a big deal but something to be aware of when you are working from drawings with different reference dimensions. Good drafting & machining practice is whenever possible utilize a predominant feature as a reference datum & make the dimensions relative to that. I'm told some people prefer the Y to read negative coming towards you, some prefer (or maybe machines are set up?) opposite to that. My brain is simple so I revert to standard Cartesian coordinates. My DRO box allows me to set positive direction either way.


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## DPittman (Aug 9, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I use center function a lot, very useful.
> 
> One thing to get burned in the noggin is edge compensation. For example if your DRO X reads conventional direction meaning increasing positive numbers as spindle goes right, then when you contact the left edge of your block with a 0.200" diameter edge finder, you enter <negative> 0.100 so it registers zero over the edge and positive numbers to the right. If you edge find on the RHS of block you enter +.100 and now read negative DRO numbers relative to that edge zero. Its not a big deal but something to be aware of when you are working from drawings with different reference dimensions. Good drafting & machining practice is whenever possible utilize a predominant feature as a reference datum & make the dimensions relative to that. I'm told some people prefer the Y to read negative coming towards you, some prefer (or maybe machines are set up?) opposite to that. My brain is simple so I revert to standard Cartesian coordinates. My DRO box allows me to set positive direction either way.


As I rolled out of bed this morning I was thinking about that edge finding stuff in my foggy head so your timing is great. Thanks


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## YYCHM (Aug 9, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I use center function a lot, very useful.
> 
> One thing to get burned in the noggin is edge compensation. For example if your DRO X reads conventional direction meaning increasing positive numbers as spindle goes right, then when you contact the left edge of your block with a 0.200" diameter edge finder, you enter <negative> 0.100 so it registers zero over the edge and positive numbers to the right. If you edge find on the RHS of block you enter +.100 and now read negative DRO numbers relative to that edge zero. Its not a big deal but something to be aware of when you are working from drawings with different reference dimensions. Good drafting & machining practice is whenever possible utilize a predominant feature as a reference datum & make the dimensions relative to that. I'm told some people prefer the Y to read negative coming towards you, some prefer (or maybe machines are set up?) opposite to that. My brain is simple so I revert to standard Cartesian coordinates. My DRO box allows me to set positive direction either way.



What's edge compensation called in DRO jargon?  I don't see such a feature in my DRO manual.  I know some DROs allow you to enter tool diameter, mine doesn't.


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## historicalarms (Aug 9, 2020)

Craig, I like the depth stops mounted to the jaws in your vise. I thought about doing that when I first bought mine but decided I would be forever having to remove them for irregularly shaped work pieces.

    For "workable" alternatives I have collected a bunch of square cut keyway chunks from 1/4 to 7/8 sizes and a collection of ground flat bar for thinner needs.

    A question, does your "movable jaw" lift  3-4 thou when you tighten onto a work piece, mine always does. Very infrequently does it make a difference on the accuracy I require but it is there and you have to watch for it if perfect accuracy is required.


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## YYCHM (Aug 9, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> Craig, I like the depth stops mounted to the jaws in your vise. I thought about doing that when I first bought mine but decided I would be forever having to remove them for irregularly shaped work pieces.
> 
> For "workable" alternatives I have collected a bunch of square cut keyway chunks from 1/4 to 7/8 sizes and a collection of ground flat bar for thinner needs.
> 
> A question, does your "movable jaw" lift  3-4 thou when you tighten onto a work piece, mine always does. Very infrequently does it make a difference on the accuracy I require but it is there and you have to watch for it if perfect accuracy is required.



Depth stops?  Not following what you're talking about.


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## PeterT (Aug 9, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What's edge compensation called in DRO jargon?  I don't see such a feature in my DRO manual.  I know some DROs allow you to enter tool diameter, mine doesn't.



The jargon is my own, I'm just trying to walk you through a common example of DRO usage. Basically you just need to be able to 'enter' a number like  plus 0.100 or minus 0.100. The +/- sign is important for reasons I mentioned. The 0.100 in this example corresponds to the half diameter of your edge finder. So if you happened to have a different edge finder with 0.250 diameter stylus then compensation would be 0.250 / 2 = +/- 0.125". (A 0.200" diameter stylus is common for classic reasons, because half is 0.100 which typically an even turn increment on the hand wheel when using the manual mode graduations. Which is why you would not normally want a metric edge finder LoL)

Another common thing is entering zero like when you have found the center of a hole using DTI & now need to displace relative to that. On my box I can enter a value '0" or double click the X,Y,Z button & it nulls to zero as a bit of time saver. Each box is different.

Z can go one of 2 ways. You can contact the surface with an end mill, zero, then progressive removed material displays as -0.005, -0.010, -0.015" for example.
Another way is if you have measured the material to be 0.325", you would touch your end mill down & enter that 0.325" value directly. Now when you remove material it shows the actual reducing dimension like 0.300, 0.275 etc which is usually more meaningful. But this gets back to what I was saying above, you need to have the axis +/- DIRECTION set up so down quill = reducing DRO values.


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## YYCHM (Aug 9, 2020)

PeterT said:


> The jargon is my own, I'm just trying to walk you through a common example of DRO usage. Basically you just need to be able to 'enter' a number like  plus 0.100 or minus 0.100. The +/- sign is important for reasons I mentioned. The 0.100 in this example corresponds to the half diameter of your edge finder. So if you happened to have a different edge finder with 0.250 diameter stylus then compensation would be 0.250 / 2 = +/- 0.125". (A 0.200" diameter stylus is common for classic reasons, because half is 0.100 which typically an even turn increment on the hand wheel when using the manual mode graduations. Which is why you would not normally want a metric edge finder LoL)
> 
> Another common thing is entering zero like when you have found the center of a hole using DTI & now need to displace relative to that. On my box I can enter a value '0" or double click the X,Y,Z button & it nulls to zero as a bit of time saver. Each box is different.
> 
> ...



I got ya now, it's called "Preset Data to designated axis" in my manual and ya that would be handy alright.  I've never used it before.  @RobinHood showed me how to land the tool on a piece of paper then pre-set  back 0.004" on the dial, back off, start up, and when you advance to 0.0 the tool should start cutting.  Worked like a charm.

I just tried pre-set to compensate for my edge finder and re-measured my 3-2-1 block and came up 0.4 too long LOL. 

Me thinks, this will take some study.


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## PeterT (Aug 9, 2020)

Yes, I suspect what Rudy was showing is setup for milling. When the EM grabs the 0.004" thick paper, you call that 0.004" offset from the edge. So dial that value in the DRO as <negative> 0.004" because at 0.000 EM should make contact and anything positive means its cutting. The paper serves another purpose, you aren't marring the surface with the rotating EM looking for surface. Paper thickness varies BTW & keep your fingers in the safety zone.

You might not use an edge finder for this milling application because its an extra tool to insert & maybe collet too. But the other factor is even if the spindle knows where the zero edge is, the EM itself may have a slightly different physical diameter vs its nominal size (say 0.499 or 0.501" vs 0.500"). They typically have close tolerances but kind of depends. If its an important dimension, stay shy, measure & adjust accordingly.

An edge finder is more common pre-step for doing say a series of holes. You indicate off reference X and Y edges, then drill holes some relative distance away. And goes without saying, deburr your edges from overhangs which will trick your edge finding. I like to use vise stops to relocate part into same vise position because often times you can't measure in-situ, therefore the part has to come out & you don't want to go through the edge finding rigmarole all over again. Once you've experienced DRO, its hard to go back to manual mode, backlash compensation etc. Those old timers had some skills!

I use my edge finder to quickly find rough center of holes. Traverse inside the circle in X direction contacting either side of bore, use the 1/2 function, lock on X=0. Then repeat procedure for Y. So gets you close quite fast & usually center its within couple thou compared to DTI traversing the ID perimeter (which is still more accurate method).


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## historicalarms (Aug 10, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Depth stops?  Not following what you're talking about.



  The two bars attached (at least it appears to have a screw holding the one to the stationary jaw) to the vise jaws that prevent the 3-2-1 block from going deeper than it is.


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## Brent H (Aug 10, 2020)

Parallels: https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=parallels&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

they are super great to keep your work all even


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## YYCHM (Aug 10, 2020)

historicalarms said:


> The two bars attached (at least it appears to have a screw holding the one to the stationary jaw) to the vise jaws that prevent the 3-2-1 block from going deeper than it is.



As Brent said, parallels.  They come in precision ground matching pairs.  I'm kind of surprised you don't have a set?


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## YYCHM (Aug 11, 2020)

DRO install phase IV complete...….  The z-axis






Scale install.  Basically the same arrangement as @David_R8.






Appears to agree with a DI.






That last digit just drives me insane LOL


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## PeterT (Aug 11, 2020)

Have you checked to see if the DRO setup programming allows #.000 as opposed to #.0000
I know some boxes work that way because machinists may prefer say X&Y with 3 digits & Z with 4 or some other combination that makes sense to them.
Or just train your eye too look at the first 3 numbers after the decimal. Because the chances of physically finishing a part to a tenth consistently is pretty darn hard on most hobby machines, so consider it as wishful thinking for now LOL


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## David_R8 (Aug 11, 2020)

Looks great, well done Craig!
(if that last digit drives you crazy....wait till you lock the quill feed and watch it move around a few digits!)


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## Tom O (Aug 11, 2020)

I wouldn’t worry too much if you can’t change the display after all it comes down to whatever you get use to.


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## YYCHM (Aug 11, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Looks great, well done Craig!
> (if that last digit drives you crazy....wait till you lock the quill feed and watch it move around a few digits!)



All three axis twitch when you lock them down LOL.


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## Clearcutter (Aug 11, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> All three axis twitch when you lock them down LOL.


One strip of black tape across all those 4th digits should do the trick!  LOL It would drive me nuts as well. Would be interesting to see if you could shut that off like Peter says


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## DPittman (Aug 11, 2020)

There is a setting in the dro for resolution but I assumed that was in regards to just make sure the settings were to match the scales.  I didn't mess around with that myself and I have quickly gotten use to the last digit fluttering about.


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## YYCHM (Aug 11, 2020)

Clearcutter said:


> One strip of black tape across all those 4th digits should do the trick!  LOL It would drive me nuts as well. Would be interesting to see if you could shut that off like Peter says



No settings option to control number of digits displayed.  

@DPittman the setup resolution is for setting the scale resolutions.

I may do the tape thing yet LOL.


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## YYCHM (Aug 11, 2020)

DPittman said:


> I have quickly gotten use to the last digit fluttering about.



If they are twitching while you're machining, turn shake on (see Filter Display Value).


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## DPittman (Aug 13, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> @Dabbler is that WOW that's good or WOW tha
> 
> 
> Easy-Peasy.  Touch off your edge finder on one side and zero that axis.  Move to the oppose face and touch off again then hit 1/2 and what ever axis you are working on, then move that axis until your read zero or 0.000blaaa


What does it mean "while the axis is encoder"?


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## YYCHM (Aug 13, 2020)

DPittman said:


> What does it mean "while the axis is encoder"?



Ahhhhh, I think that should read encoding i.e. moving.


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## DPittman (Aug 13, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Ahhhhh, I think that should read encoding i.e. moving.


Oh. I dont think I would have even figured out what encoding meant.  Thanks


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## YYCHM (Aug 14, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> The grease fitting cleaning tool may work too if it has enough capacity to do at least one oil point. then just re-fill and repeat.



The cleaning tool finally arrived.  I isn't going to work.  It doesn't have a means of attaching it to a grease fitting, so I can't picture holding it against the fitting tight enough to force oil through.

Going to give this one a go

https://www.amazon.ca/Lumax-LX-1174...push+lube&qid=1596735154&sr=8-126&tag=chmw-20


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## Brian Ross (Aug 14, 2020)

Years ago I made an "oil gun" from a small grease gun. I found that I couldn't hold the coupler onto the zirk so that I could actually get oil to pass through the ball valve. I did some google research and found www.LocknLube.com. They make a locking coupler that holds well enough to actually dispense oil. They aren't cheep but they do work.


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## historicalarms (Aug 15, 2020)

My old man wanted an oiler fitting on a piece of farm equipment long ago and tried the grease fitting thing but soon discovered what you guys are finding out also...their not meant for easy flowing oil.

    His remedy (and it worked excellent) was to drill the back of the male fitting out so he could remove the spring & ball, leaving an easy "flow through" channel for the oil...next he dismantled the grease gun fitting and removed the 3 "floating tabs" that lock the fitting onto the Zert then inserted a small o-ring into the end that contacted the Zert. He could now hold it tight enough by hand to force the oil through the zert fitting. The grease gun he used for this chore was always a slimy mess as oil always seeped out around the rubber flange at the back end...ohh ya...he also had to remove the advancement spring from the back end and just keep the gun tilted "up" at the back end to keep oil feeding into the pressure stroke chamber.

   Just an added bit of interesting info... I once knew the grandson of the German fellow that invented & patent the Zirk ( the grandfathers last name)...wealthiest man I ever knew. he had 3 mansions in North America, the one he calls his "hunting lodge" is 7 miles from my place ( 3,500 sq ft on each floor, 3 floors)...The "big place" as he called it is his ancestral "castle" in Germany. The family now owns the two largest candy factories in Europe...all from something as small and incongruous to all of us as a "grease nipple.


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## YYCHM (Aug 17, 2020)

This is new...….  

https://www.busybeetools.com/products/grease-gun-push-type-c-w-coupler.html

Wasn't listed a week ago.


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## YYCHM (Aug 18, 2020)

This https://www.amazon.ca/Lumax-LX-1174...push+lube&qid=1596735154&sr=8-126&tag=chmw-20 arrived today.

It does push oil through but god it's messy.  Oil leaks straight out the spout while you're trying to fill it.

I think I'll try converting a grease gun next.  This is just too messy.


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## YYCHM (Aug 20, 2020)

Here is a recap on my quest to find a suitable oiler for my mill.






First up was a grease fitting clearing tool I spotted at PA.  $7 something + $10 shipping.  Was a no go as soon as I had it in hand to look at it.






Second up was this push type grease gun claiming to work with oil @Brent H spotted on Amazon.  $28.10 delivered.  First negative is that the zerk coupler is nothing more than a cupped surface, no grabbing jaws.  It did push oil but when the oil had no where to go, it leaked past the rubber piston into the air chamber behind and leaked like a sieve.






Third up is this GROZ push type grease gun I spotted at BB.  $11.54 on sale.  This one looked like it had real potential.  All metal, a zerk coupler with jaws.  Well... it was a total fail.  It wouldn't pump anything including grease.
Should have taken it back but I had taken it apart to see if I could figure out what was wrong with it.  Something in it just isn't letting anything through.  Trying to put it back together was a full afternoons worth of swearing LOL.






Getting frustrated I ventured back to PA to see if I could find a cheap lever type grease gun to try.  Found this in the surplus section for $6.06 and picked up the flex connection for $7.99.  This actually worked.  You can pour way oil into the bbl and it doesn't leak out at all as long as you hold it vertically upright with connection below.  Pump Pump Pump and I had all 4 table/saddle dovetails on the mill flooded with fresh way oil.  Now to find someone to 3D print a top cap for me LOL.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Sep 4, 2020)

Good idea or bad idea?






I wanted a reference surface perpendicular to my vise jaws so that I could setup my vise using a machinist square off the back face of the table.  This is what I did, after dialing in the angle bracket with a TDI (DTI?).

It didn't really accomplish much.... I still have to bump the vice around to get it aligned with the TDI


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## David_R8 (Sep 4, 2020)

Are you trying to tram the vise to the spindle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Sep 4, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Are you trying to tram the vise to the spindle?



Spindle..


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## David_R8 (Sep 5, 2020)

I don’t think you can effectively tram a vise using a square. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I don’t think you can effectively tram a vise using a square.








The back edge of the table indicates 0.002 variation over 8"-10", so one would think setting the vise square to that edge should get you at least that close but it doesn't?  When I trammed in the angle plate I measured across the face the fixed jaw clamped on.

Just a tad perplexed now...….


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## David_R8 (Sep 5, 2020)

Personally I just chuck my DTI in the spindle and tram the vise to that. 
Takes maybe a minute or two. 


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2020)

Ok..... There is something funky going on with the registration surfaces I milled






This behaves exactly like what you would expect.  Setting it up with a square gets you to within 0.002 over 6" on the fixed jaw.

Need to figure out a means of checking the registration surfaces to vise jaw alignment.  Any suggestions?


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2020)

So, I mounted this up today thinking I would give it a test drive.....






And then went totally brain dead as to what to do as a test drive LOL.  Kind of spent the afternoon staring at it, and sifting through the scrap bin, over and over again.

I don't think 10" is TOO big, but 8" might have been more appropriate.  My X-Axis DRO scale contacts the column before the table does.  Plunking a chuck on it might be a different story, but I still have a good 6" more head space over what the image shows.

Suggest a RT test drive project......


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## francist (Sep 5, 2020)

I tend to use mine a lot for doing things like this — putting flutes or grooves into adjustment handles or lock rings. This one is 6061 aluminum and just plunged with an end mill around the periphery (slightly less than half the diameter of the end mill seems to work nicely both aesthetically as well as for feel)






-frank


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2020)

francist said:


> I tend to use mine a lot for doing things like this — putting flutes or grooves into adjustment handles or lock rings. This one is 6061 aluminum and just plunged with an end mill around the periphery (slightly less than half the diameter of the end mill seems to work nicely both aesthetically as well as for feel)
> 
> View attachment 10920
> 
> -frank



What is that thing?  It looks pretty elaborate!!


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## PeterT (Sep 5, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Setting it up with a square gets you to within 0.002 over 6" on the fixed jaw.



Hard to say but even if the vise was perfectly square initially, its possible to introduce that amount of run out just tightening the bolts. By applying torque you are twisting on the washer which is displacing the vise. Even if you alternate tightening the heads progressively back & forth between 2 bolts, chances are good the displacement will be in the same collective rotation direction (vs opposing or cancelling one another) as one bolt kind of acts as a pivot for the other. What might help is 2 washers so they slip. My vise has a slot & uses Z shaped type hold downs which is more downward force vs torque. Even so its still possible to introduce a bit of junk.

Just a personal opinion but I just use the square to get it quite close, usually within the same range as you are getting. Clamp one bolt rather firm, say 60% of full tight & leave the other looser. Run the DTI across the jaw, bump the vise & dial it in, snugging up the looser bolt. If you dial it in as table is moving you can usually get it within one pass with a bit of practice. 2 or 3 for sure so it really doesn't take much time. I know a lot of people use milled keys in the T-slot & prefer that. But I find the key position sometimes don't land the vise where I want it, so I just clamp it where I want it & dial it in. Its maybe personal preference. Keys might have a bit more stability retaining the vise under heavier load/vibration, but I think only if it fits the T slots well on both front & rear edges. My current mill is pretty good but my RF-45 was pretty rough.


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## francist (Sep 5, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What is that thing?


Part of my sharpening setup, something I came up with for doing end mills (not the flutes) as well as horizontal milling cutters.


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## PeterT (Sep 5, 2020)

Very nice, Frank. Worthy of a mini build post (hint-hint). Looks like a lot of though & effort went into that.


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## YYCHM (Sep 6, 2020)

Well... the RT works per my expectations..... solid and smooth.
















However the operator sucks big time LOL.  That didn't turn out very symmetrical did it!!!  I'm attempting to make a spindle wrench.


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## RobinHood (Sep 7, 2020)

Good attempt, Craig. I find that laying the pattern out first - either straight onto metal or on a piece of paper that is then taped (or glued) onto the metal - helps reduce errors.


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## YYCHM (Sep 7, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Good attempt, Craig. I find that laying the pattern out first - either straight onto metal or on a piece of paper that is then taped (or glued) onto the metal - helps reduce errors.



I figured out why I messed up the first attempt LOL.  The table is labeled 0-10-20-30...90-80-70-60...0 all the way around.






I'm now working on my fourth attempt to figure out what dimensions will capture the splines on my spindle.

It's 1" OD, and the splines appear to be 0.25" wide and 0.05" deep.

Suggestions anyone?


----------



## Janger (Sep 7, 2020)

suggestion 1. CAD it, 3D print your solution, and see how it fits.

suggestion 2. draw it to scale on paper. cut it out. see how it fits.

then make it in metal.

is that the 8" table from Alex A.? Pictures? :>


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## RobinHood (Sep 7, 2020)

Here are the standard dimensions for an SAE 6-Spline from the Machinery’s Handbook.


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## YYCHM (Sep 7, 2020)

Janger said:


> is that the 8" table from Alex A.? Pictures? :>



Yup, that's the 8" RT that Alex A posted that turned out to be a 10" RT.


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## Janger (Sep 7, 2020)

Score one for Craig! that's a good one. I paid $500 for my 8" vertex new and retail.


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## YYCHM (Sep 9, 2020)

Well..... it took 7 prototypes to nail down a pattern that fit my spindle splines.






The winning combination was 9/32" holes drilled 0.463 from center and cored out with a 1/4" endmill 0.338" from center.  If that makes sense to anyone please explain it to me as calculating the geometry just eluded me.






Making the wrench head went well apart from one little ooops and that was milling the OD to the wrong line.  Oh well, we will just make the handle narrower is all.






This is the finished wrench.  That funky offset handle was NOT planned.  When I went to mill the handle the end mill appeared to get a mind of it's owned and peeled off 30 deg in the wrong direction!  I don't know if the work piece moved under the clamps or the RT rotated on me.  To salvage what I had done so far I finished the handle on the bandsaw.






I suspect it was the work piece that moved as I had it kick out of alignment when I went to round the end of the handle.  I probably need to use MDF or hardwood as backing rather than this particle board.

I think I'll try this all again in mild steel.

Craig


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 9, 2020)

Beauty!  Its on my todo list now too.  I just need some bloody TIME IN THE SHOP!


----------



## YYCHM (Sep 9, 2020)

So what is this phenomenon about??






Half way through my spindle wrench project I had two swap out end mills as the one I was using had become clogged with aluminium.  Aluminium swarf was packed and welded into all 4 flutes???  I had to essentially chisel it out of the flutes.


----------



## DPittman (Sep 9, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> So what is this phenomenon about??
> 
> View attachment 10998
> 
> Half way through my spindle wrench project I had two swap out end mills as the one I was using had become clogged with aluminium.  Aluminium swarf was packed and welded into all 4 flutes???  I had to essentially chisel it out of the flutes.


Well im no expert but.....some aluminum can be bad for galling up on tools.  A two flute end mill will help clear the chips and reduce that as will some fluid such as wd40.


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## Dusty (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi YYCHM, yup you got it aluminum is sticky stuff when it comes to drilling, machining, and tooling. Recommend this simple trick we used during my air force years. Best lubricant we found was clear paraffin you know the kind your grandmother and mother used when canning, comes in a box of 5 or 6 approximately 2 1/2" x 5" x 1/2" bars. So you rub the cold flutes with a little wax then as the mill end heats-up simply shut your mill off then touch the bar of wax near the cutter end. Not a perfect solution although reasonably cheep to buy and you don't end up with a huge oily mess. After the wax cools down it returns to a solid with aluminum swarf mixed in. Just flick it off.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 9, 2020)

MDF is probably a better choice of scrap board. Its denser, therefore wont squash out of alignment or loosen as much like plywood under clamping pressure. The thickness is quite uniform actually. Its smoother which effectively means more contact friction area on the surface.  It doesn't do well with liquids like water which can swell it but seems to last me long enough with cutting oil to get through the job, at least that has been my experience. When you drill or mill through, its more like dust vs plywood can chip out.


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## turner (Sep 10, 2020)

YYC Paraffin sounds like a great idea. I work with aluminum...enough, the cutters for aluminum are made different. That being said, heat caused your problem, I often use a standard cutter as well, your cutter  just needs a little help. RELTON A-9, I didn't really know how good this works until I was cutting Aluminum with a had saw. Put a spot on the blade and noticed less pressure/effort and a faster cleaner cut. I use it all the time, a little messy though. Available most places cutting fluid is sold. As well if you have a HSS/Carbide cutter that is plugged up, just put it in the mill and run it into a piece of mild steel/ cast iron. It will spit that aluminum out like nothing.
I as well have a RF-30 with no coolant. Todd.


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## kevin.decelles (Sep 10, 2020)

+1 on the A-9.   Also WD-40


----------



## Dabbler (Sep 10, 2020)

+1 on all the lubricant advice.

On cutting, there are a few techniques that will help a lot, even if you don't have a dedicated aluminum cutter...
Take cuts with very small chip load:  it generates a lot less heat, and prevents welding onto the cutter.  Keep your cutter cool - between passes I take a short half minute break.  Use lube (covered above),   In order to make thins seem less tedious, I take twice the depth of cut with half the chip load, It results in long thin slivers of chips that seem to clear the cutter well.


----------



## YYCHM (Sep 10, 2020)

Craig's production shop LOL.






I needed the vise but wasn't finished with the RT so I scooched the RT over and mounted my vise.  That 29" long table comes in handy.






Spindle Wrench Version 2.0.  This one in 1/4" mild steel and the offset handle WAS planned this time LOL.

I'm liking this rotary table!


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## YYCHM (Nov 16, 2020)

So after much dithering I finally decided to convert my mill to 3 phase with VFD speed control.






Pretty much have everything I need now

2 HP 3 PH motor $60 from Kijiji
4 HP VFD $75 from Amazon
ESD switch $18 from BB
12' of 14AWG 4 strand electrical cord $23 from Home Depot

I was going to wire the ESD into the singe phase side and use it double duty as an ESD and an on/off sw for the VFD but I noticed it's capable of handling 3 phase so now I'm not sure what to do?  Should I wire it to the 3 phase side or to the single phase side?  Do you think it really matters?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Nov 16, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> So after much dithering I finally decided to convert my mill to 3 phase with VFD speed control.
> 
> View attachment 11707
> 
> ...


I have limited experience with VFDs but have read that repeated off/on cycles is hard on the electronics. I leave mine on all the time and use a DPDT switch mounted on the mill and wired to the low voltage side of the VFD to control rev/off/frwd.


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 16, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I have limited experience with VFDs but have read that repeated off/on cycles is hard on the electronics. I leave mine on all the time and use a DPDT switch mounted on the mill and wired to the low voltage side of the VFD to control rev/off/frwd.



This VFD has two fans that would be running continuously if I leave it on all the time.

Another thing...… are you set up for decelerated stop or free stop?  This VFD is set to decelerated stop and I think I would prefer free stop.


----------



## David_R8 (Nov 16, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> This VFD has two fans that would be running continuously if I leave it on all the time.
> 
> Another thing...… are you set up for decelerated stop or free stop?  This VFD is set to decelerated stop and I think I would prefer free stop.


The fans on mine only run when some parameter is hit such as temp or something. 
I have some braking set,  maybe 3-4 secs but because there is only the internal brake resistor if the braking is set too fast it just kicks out and nothing happens.


----------



## Dabbler (Nov 16, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist is it possible to publish links for the items you used?  it would be a great help to know what they are in detail.


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 16, 2020)

Motor






VFD

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07ZCTFB78/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

ESD

https://www.busybeetools.com/products/switch-large-stop-button-2hp-cul.html

Wire for the 3 phase side

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/southwire-soow-copper-electrical-cord-14-4-black-75m/1000823352


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## YYCHM (Nov 16, 2020)

Well..... I can't believe this.... after all my planning the motor pulley doesn't fit the 3 phase motor  0.0085" difference in diameters.  The 1 phase motor measures 0.865 and the 3 phase motor measures 0.8735.  Different size keys as well

To add insult to injury I only discovered this after struggling to dismount the 80 lb single phase motor.  I had attempted to remove the pully to check before dismounting the motor but it wouldn't come off.  Once the motor was off (Phew), I realized (remembered) there are two set screws and off she came with nothing more than a tug

So now what to do


----------



## David_R8 (Nov 16, 2020)

So the pulley is too small for the 3-phase motor?

If that’s the case can it be bored slightly larger?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 17, 2020)

Recommend sourcing or making new pulley . Keep orig pulley with orig motor —. That is your fallback plan

I just went through this with my drill press. 20mm shaft on original , 19mm shaft in surrogate. 

Ended up casting a pulley out of aluminum (4 step). Used 3d printed part as mould













I cast the actual profile on the first one but will use a square stepped blank for my next one as you need to machine it regardless and may as well get a perfect finish with no inclusions

Here is the blank for any future recasts












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RobinHood (Nov 17, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The 1 phase motor measures 0.865 and the 3 phase motor measures 0.8735. Different size keys as well



Ahh, the old metric vs imperial strikes again:
22mm -> 0.86614
7/8” -> 0.875

Bets, the key(way) is also metric; probably 5 or 6mm vs 1/4 in the 3 phase motor.

Not to poke fun at your struggles, Craig, I’ve been there many times and totally understand your frustrations.

So, over time, I have made both 22mm and 7/8” shafts / arbours so that I can use the NOS milling cutters (which tend to be 7/8”) and the new, offshore, ones as well (they are usually 22mm)

I very much like @kevin.decelles idea: you may need that OEM combo yet in case you need to make a bracket or something before the new 3 PH motor is fully installed on your mill.


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## John Conroy (Nov 17, 2020)

You can get 7/8" ID pulleys at Princess auto. I had the same issue when I converted my lathe.


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## David_R8 (Nov 17, 2020)

At the risk of exposing my complete inexperience, other than keeping the original pulley intact, is there a reason not to bore it out to .875"?


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## YYCHM (Nov 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> At the risk of exposing my complete inexperience, other than keeping the original pulley intact, is there a reason not to bore it out to .875"?



It sure isn't much of a difference is it?

I would prefer not to mod the pulley, just to keep the original single phase motor/pulley set intact.  The key way on single phase 22mm motor shaft is significantly larger as well. 7mm v.s. 4.65 mm (3/16).  But that's easy enough to work around. If push came to shove as a work around I would rather see the motor shaft turn down.

With luck I'll find a 4 step 7/8" bore pulley that's close to the original.  The search begins.


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## David_R8 (Nov 17, 2020)

Maybe contact the folks @Emery found.
https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-hobby-machinist-in-edmonton.2595/post-31875


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## YYCHM (Nov 17, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Maybe contact the folks @Emery found.
> https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-hobby-machinist-in-edmonton.2595/post-31875



I was just going to search for that post to see if his image had the manufactures name.  Been looking through the Applied Industrial website earlier.  Thanks.


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 17, 2020)

The last pulley I sourced was from Canadian Knife Maker.  It was a 3 step pulley, 4-3-2 inch step.  Good service/transaction Link to Knifemaker.ca

Not cheap though..... hence I make my own now.


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## John Conroy (Nov 17, 2020)

I didn't realize it was 4 steps. Masterdrives makes them but like Kevin said, *Not Cheap.*

https://www.masterdrives.com/sheaves/Step Pulleys - revised 10-29-20.pdf

They can be ordered on eBay. 
If your largest pulley is 6" order AKS62 (about $130 USD including shipping)
If your largest pulley is 5" order AKS52 (about $100 USD including shipping)

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Masterdrive...524537?hash=item4da825b239:g:WQgAAOSwt9BeXWyl


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## YYCHM (Nov 17, 2020)

So, after looking for pulley options I think what I want to do is reduce the OD of the $60 3 PH motor by 0.0085" and use the current pulley.  What are my options for doing this?

Do you think I would get away with simply spinning the motor shaft against a file?


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## RobinHood (Nov 17, 2020)

Probably would work. Not very accurate.

I would bolt the motor to the mill table, tram it, put a HSS tool (a broken drill bit sharpened to suit would work) in the spindle (that is locked to stop rotation of the tool), run the motor with the VFD so you can control the speed, and nibble off the 4 thou per side. Then polish the shaft and make a suitable stepped key.

Or you could disassemble the motor and turn the rotor between centres on your lathe...


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## Dabbler (Nov 17, 2020)

@kevin.decelles - I have heard that ASA is strong enough to make the pulley ind 3DP...  food for thought?


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 17, 2020)

Well.... wasn't hard to disassemble.






No centrifugal switch to disconnect.  Lots of dust.  The fan and fan cover cowling are plastic???






Should be able to do something with this. Just have to careful not to take too much off.


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 18, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @kevin.decelles - I have heard that ASA is strong enough to make the pulley ind 3DP...  food for thought?



Interesting.....  I don't have any ASA, but I have some ABS that I'd be interested to try.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

Ooooops….. not exactly what I intended.






I managed to take the shaft down to 0.858" on the first pass so now it's 0.0075" undersize.  I thought I had just touched the tool to the shaft for the first pass not intending to take anything significant off?????

I any event I don't think it's a write off.  There is a little bit of wiggle but not much.  That pulley wiggles a little on the 1 ph motor as well.

Making the key is going to be fun....  I need the pulley on the mill to make the key yet I need the pulley off the mill to check the fit


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 18, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I need the pulley on the mill to make the key yet I need the pulley off the mill to check the fit



This my friend, made me laugh.  Thank-you.


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## Johnwa (Nov 18, 2020)

You get to use your drive plate and custom center, that’s a win!
Were you using a carbide or HSS tool?  It’s hard to take a few thou with carbide.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> You get to use your drive plate and custom center, that’s a win!
> Were you using a carbide or HSS tool?  It’s hard to take a few thou with carbide.



I used a HSS tool due to the interrupted cut from the key way.  Finish was excellent, just removed a little more material than I intended.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

Motor is back together now...






Everything is working as it should.  On to making the key next.

So.... no one answered my question as to where to connect the ESD switch.  On the 1 phase side or on the 3 phase side?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2020)

Is the ESD the primary method for stopping the mill?


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Is the ESD the primary method for stopping the mill?



No, I'll use the VFD stop button for that.  The ESD is the panic button and I though I would use it to power down the VFD when not in use however I question using it on the 1 phase side now since the VFD stays active for quite some time when it's unplugged (for  more than a few seconds).  Must have a large capacitor in it.


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> No, I'll use the VFD stop button for that.  The ESD is the panic button and I though I would use it to power down the VFD when not in use however I question using it on the 1 phase side now since the VFD stays active for quite some time when it's unplugged (for  more than a few seconds).  Must have a large capacitor in it.


I think then it makes sense to put on the three phase side. Which leg of the three is better answered by an expert.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> I think then it makes sense to put on the three phase side. Which leg of the three is better answered by an expert.



The ESD switch will kill all three legs at once.


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## John Conroy (Nov 18, 2020)

The manual for my Huanyang VFD says not to install any switches or contactors on the output side.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

Interesting..... would that imply you shouldn't run the VFD without a 3 phase load attached?


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## turner (Nov 18, 2020)

Johnwa said:


> You get to use your drive plate and custom center, that’s a win!
> Were you using a carbide or HSS tool?  It’s hard to take a few thou with carbide.


Why is it hard to take a few thou with carbide? I thought it was just me?


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2020)

My Teco is always on unless I unplug it.


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## David_R8 (Nov 18, 2020)

turner said:


> Why is it hard to take a few thou with carbide? I thought it was just me?


It's hard because the nose radius determines the DoC.
Generally the nose radius is the minimum DoC.


----------



## Johnwa (Nov 18, 2020)

turner said:


> Why is it hard to take a few thou with carbide? I thought it was just me?


Carbide tends to be ”dull” compared to a sharp HSS tool.  It can be sharpened but the the edge is very fragile.  I can dial in and take of 10 to 15 thou and it will be as accurate as I can measure.  If I try a couple of thou then it just rubs until I advance the tool enough that it starts to cut more than I want.


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## John Conroy (Nov 18, 2020)

The manual also says to make all wiring connections before powering up the VFD. I think they are mostly concerned with safety, I don't know if any harm would result from having no load attached.


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## Dabbler (Nov 18, 2020)

Craig do NOT disconnect the motor from the VFD at any time!  Your VFD can be ruined by the surges it will cause.

Your ESD switch, if you wire it on the primary side, will kill the power, but allow the motor to wind down freewheeling.  If that's what you want, then your question is answered.  On my TECO, there is provision for an orderly shutdown via an external switch, which would be how I'd wire it.


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 18, 2020)

I have an ESD wired to mine, but it is a low-voltage input to the VFD which signals the stopping of the motor (VFD stays powered).   The VFD allowed for the configuration of a bunch of inputs and this was one of the options.  Similar to how you can choose a forward/reverse/jog etc.  When you invoke the ESD -- it outputs AES on the VFD so you know it is engaged.  

In addition, I use a 220V contactor on the 1ph input side that is my master off (I don't leave it running when I'm not using it.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2020)

The key.....











I nailed it the first go.  The thought of re-installing the pulley on the mill umpteen times was great motivation to do her right the first time LOL.






The motor spinning the pulley at 80HZ.  I'm not discerning any significant vibration or visible run out.


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2020)

Spent the day mounting the VFD and ESD switch on my mill bench today.






Out of the way but accessible. Took two trips to Rona and one to Lowes to find a suitable flush mount box to house the ESD switch.  Man this 3 PH motor is quiet and smooth.  When I was finished wiring everything up I gave the motor a test run and thought hmmmm some thing is wrong here it's not running, but it was.

Tomorrow I need to dig out all the crap that's under the bench so that I can route the power cords. Not Fun.


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## Hruul (Nov 20, 2020)

Looks good Craig.  Wish I would have noticed that VFD when it was that super sale.  Keep us updated on how it works.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

Hruul said:


> Looks good Craig.  Wish I would have noticed that VFD when it was that super sale.  Keep us updated on how it works.



Do you need to be able to run in reverse?  This one doesn't support that as far as I can tell so far. 
This one may go up for sale if my AliExpress VFD ever makes it out of mainland China.  Ordered Oct 15 and still stuck in China.


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## Hruul (Nov 20, 2020)

I was just going to buy so I had one at that price.  I don't even have a mill currently.


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## RobinHood (Nov 20, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> This one doesn't support that as far as I can tell so far.



did your translated manual not say there was jog FWD and jog REV? If that is the case, then I don’t see why it would not give you FWD and REV.

from the lates post in the your “translation” thread items 9, 10, 11, and 12 seem to be the lugs where you select direction of rotation. First, you probably have to set the internal parameters to look at those inputs. Then, depending on the polarity of these inputs, the motor will run FWD or in REV.

My TECOs are exactly like that: enable the external inputs and then I set the direction with the original FWD/REV switch on the mill.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> did your translated manual not say there was jog FWD and jog REV? If that is the case, then I don’t see why it would not give you FWD and REV.
> 
> from the lates post in the your “translation” thread items 9, 10, 11, and 12 seem to be the lugs where you select direction of rotation. First, you probably have to set the internal parameters to look at those inputs. Then, depending on the polarity of these inputs, the motor will run FWD or in REV.
> 
> My TECOs are exactly like that: enable the external inputs and then I set the direction with the original FWD/REV switch on the mill.



I've tried setting the F0.21-F0.25 parameters to no avail.  There is no reverse jog option that I can find.  You can set the jog frequency, jog acceleration and jog deceleration times and that's it.  The jog is weird (or so I think).  When you hold down the MF-K key it runs up to the jog freq and when you release the key it stops.


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## RobinHood (Nov 20, 2020)

Is there a little terminal strip where one can connect external control wires? It would be screw terminal that would accept maybe AWG 24 or smaller wires only.

From your translation, the ”Keyed/Keying” parameters could refer to the bottons on the key pad. The “wire“ reference could mean the external wires connected to the secondary terminal strip. Once enabled, the direction is controlled by the +12V DC (or whatever yours needs) inputs to those connections.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

Ya, there is a 7 screw terminal strip.  Labeled X1-X6


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## Brent H (Nov 20, 2020)

That will be your controls. Once you close common with one of the x connections it should do what you have programmed. So like x1 to common is fwd and x2 to common is reverse.  Etc.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

Brent H said:


> That will be your controls. Once you close common with one of the x connections it should do what you have programmed. So like x1 to common is fwd and x2 to common is reverse.  Etc.



ok..... nothing is labeled COM and there is no X6.  So what is COM? Is it GND?


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## RobinHood (Nov 20, 2020)

Yes, COM = GND. Maybe x6 is not used, so they left off the label?


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

Phew.... long day.... finally got the 3PH motor mounted and running.






Started out by pulling all this junk out from under the bench.  The plus side of that exercise is that I purged some stuff that hasn't seen the light of day in 15 years.




Next up was routing the cords and anchoring them.  NOT FUN laying on your back on the raised shelf trying to set screws into something that's 4" from you nose.






Then came dismounting this 45 lb beast.  Had to pull all of the top end.  Idler assembly,  motor pulley, spindle pulley, and belt cover etc.






Finally mounted the 35 lb 3 PH motor.  First go I discovered that the belt cover interfered with the motor, so I had to dismount the motor and lower it on the mounting plate a 1/4".  But finally she's up and running.

I'm impressed with how quite and smooth this thing runs.

I'm belted for 770 RPM and 60 HZ on the VFD gives me 790 RPM.

80 HZ is yielding 1055 RPM and 30 HZ is turning around  400 RPM.

So one belt up and two down without changing anything but the VFD HZ.  As to the torque being usable in those ranges is still to be seen.

I'm going to feel this all tomorrow I'm sure.

Craig


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

Brent H said:


> That will be your controls. Once you close common with one of the x connections it should do what you have programmed. So like x1 to common is fwd and x2 to common is reverse.  Etc.



So I wired X1 to GND (COM?) and programmed it to be keyed reverse operation.  No effect?

What your eluding to here doesn't make sense to me.  There are 5 X terminals.  If all 5 are programed differently and all 5 are wired to COM which one takes precedence?


----------



## John Conroy (Nov 20, 2020)

You would need to wire in a switch to each of the 5 inputs so they could be connected to common one at a time to perform different functions.
This is an example from my Huanyang vfd manual. In this example you can see that if the common terminal is connected to the top terminal it would give a forward rotation request to the vfd. The function of each of the input terminals is programmable. Your really need an English manual. Maybe it is similar to my Huanyang. I have the manual stored on Google Drive. PM me your email address and I send you a link to it.


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## John Conroy (Nov 20, 2020)

This link should get you to the Huanyang vfd manual.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mv7jXqR01P-Jrg7lA9S639xc_pUHHSQ8/view?usp=drivesdk


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2020)

John Conroy said:


> This link should get you to the Huanyang vfd manual.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mv7jXqR01P-Jrg7lA9S639xc_pUHHSQ8/view?usp=drivesdk



Link requires you to login.


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## RobinHood (Nov 20, 2020)

There two modes of operation:
1) everything is controlled from the attached keypad;
2) some parameters are controlled from external inputs

the VFD needs to know which mode of operation it is in (default is most likely 1)). This is where the Function programming parameters are set. Here is my Teco FM50






You can see under F10 you have a choice to set it to 0: Keypad or 1:Terminal. Same with Frequency Control (F11) - 0: Keypad, 1: Terminal (0~10V), 2: Terminal (4-20mA). It also shows the factory default for each of the function setting. Your VFD will be set up the same. You just need to tell it from where it gets the inputs (keypad or external) by setting the functions to the correct value.

Your main problem is that you don’t have an English manual. So you will have to step through all the functions and see which ones make sense. You do have the listing of what is where, so that should help you.

here Is the FM50 connection diagram. I know, not yours, but similar.






*NOTE: I may be wrong in my previous post where I said that COM = GND. It could be, but not necessarily.
Just re-read my TECO FM50 manual and they use the term COM to represent 12V DC that is COMMON to multiple other circuit inputs.
I would check with a multi meter first. It may not be GND in your VFD!*


----------



## John Conroy (Nov 20, 2020)

If you Google "Huanyang vfd manual" you will get links to the same manual I have


----------



## 6.5 Fan (Nov 21, 2020)

This is an interesting thread, i moved a LC 30A into the basement last year and plan in the future to go with a 3phase motor and VFD. Absolutely hate changing speeds on this thing.


----------



## DPittman (Nov 21, 2020)

6.5 Fan said:


> This is an interesting thread, i moved a LC 30A into the basement last year and plan in the future to go with a 3phase motor and VFD. Absolutely hate changing speeds on this thing.


Yup, I've got a machine that j would someday like to get on vfd 3 ph also to avoid the belt changes but I don't have the willingness or know how to figure this stuff out myself. I am electrically challenged.  I will benefit from the experience of the "pioneers" in this thread.


----------



## David_R8 (Nov 21, 2020)

6.5 Fan said:


> This is an interesting thread, i moved a LC 30A into the basement last year and plan in the future to go with a 3phase motor and VFD. Absolutely hate changing speeds on this thing.



I have an LC30 mill also. I switched it to 3-phase power last year and it’s been brilliant. Changing speed is now a simple turn of a dial. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 21, 2020)

6.5 Fan said:


> This is an interesting thread, i moved a LC 30A into the basement last year and plan in the future to go with a 3phase motor and VFD. Absolutely hate changing speeds on this thing.



Cool.... this makes at least 4 of us RF style mill users @David_R8 , @historicalarms , you, me and I think there are two others out there.


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## YYCHM (Nov 21, 2020)

The 3 PH motor shaft is almost 1/2" shorter than the 1 PH motor.  So I had to mount the 3 PH motor higher on the mounting plate (I may have to lower it some, time will tell).  Still, the motor pulley had to be raised from it's natural resting place to line up with the idler pulley and spindle pulley.  I didn't like this situation so I decided to make a spacer for the motor pulley to rest on......






1" round stock drilled out to 7/8".






Turned down to the required length...






And installed on the motor shaft.


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2020)

Further to my pulley spacer, I noticed that the spacer wasn't spinning with the motor shaft, so something had to be rubbing on something with that arrangement.






So I replaced the spacer sleeve with a spacer plug that fits in the pulley bore and holds the pulley up to the required height.  Simple eh...  Don't know why this solution didn't occur to me in the first place


----------



## RobinHood (Nov 22, 2020)

Your spacer was probably rubbing on the bearing shield or dust seal. If you were to chamfer that end so that the OD matches the inner race of the bearing, you could use the spacer and it would turn with the motor shaft.

How is the plug held in the pulley bore? Additional set screw?


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## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> How is the plug held in the pulley bore? Additional set screw?



The plug is just sitting in the pulley bore loose.


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## RobinHood (Nov 22, 2020)

Ok, so I am missing something here then.

I thought the plug is in the pulley bore top. When fastened to the pulley, would allow the pulley to slide down the shaft until the plug bottom makes contact with the motor shaft. And no lower. Thus giving you the peace of mind that you are after by preventing the pulley to slip all the way down the shaft and cause belt alignment problems. Do I not understand the purpose of the plug?

That is what your spacer ring would do - only from the bottom.


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## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2020)

RobinHood said:


> Ok, so I am missing something here then.
> 
> I thought the plug is in the pulley bore top. When fastened to the pulley, would allow the pulley to slide down the shaft until the plug bottom makes contact with the motor shaft. And no lower. Thus giving you the peace of mind that you are after by preventing the pulley to slip all the way down the shaft and cause belt alignment problems. Do I not understand the purpose of the plug?
> 
> That is what your spacer ring would do - only from the bottom.



You have it right.  The pulley bore is blind, so the plug takes up the space between the top of the motor shaft and the end of the pulley bore.


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## RobinHood (Nov 22, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> The pulley bore is blind



ok, that was the bit of info I was missing. Thanks!


----------



## YYCHM (Nov 22, 2020)

I'm liking this VFD set up......






I drilled to 1" (in steps) running at 30 HZ no problem.  30 HZ translates to 400 RPM.  Currently belted for 770 RPM with the VFD set for a range of 30-90 HZ.  That translates to 400-1200 RPM.  I'll try milling in the low and high RPM range tomorrow.


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## trlvn (Nov 23, 2020)

Have you got reverse working?


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## YYCHM (Nov 23, 2020)

trlvn said:


> Have you got reverse working?



Nope


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## YYCHM (Jan 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Have you got reverse working?



I do now.....






Had to go the hard wired route.  

There are 5 wired options.  

run-fwd
run-rev

jog-fwd
jog-rev

fwd-rev switch

I only implemented run-fwd and run-rev.  Not a clue what "fwd-rev switch" would accomplish???

In any event it does what I wanted it to do now...


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## Chip Maker (Jan 3, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I do now.....
> 
> View attachment 12524
> 
> ...




Would the forward reverse not be for reversing out when tapping?


----------



## trlvn (Jan 3, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I do now.....
> 
> View attachment 12524
> 
> ...



Very good!  What are the details on that switch?  Where did you get it?  Do you have a link to specs?

I take it that when you turn your new switch, the motor immediately starts turning in the indicated direction? IOW, you don't have to select a direction and then use the Run/Stop buttons on the VFD to start the motor running?  Just a WAG, but I think the "fwd-rev switch" circuit might work the latter way.

Also, I think on your 3-ph motor, you can immediately flip from forward to reverse without waiting for the motor to come to a stop.  I believe it should very quickly stop and immediately start turning the other direction.  Such behaviour isn't possible with a single phase motor due to the way the start circuit works.

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Also, I think on your 3-ph motor, you can immediately flip from forward to reverse without waiting for the motor to come to a stop. I believe it should very quickly stop and immediately start turning the other direction



That is true - won’t hurt the motor a bit.

The VFD might not like it at all because of the huge back EMF.

That’s another reason for a RPC - it can take instantaneous reversing of the load motor.


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## YYCHM (Jan 3, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Very good!  What are the details on that switch?  Where did you get it?  Do you have a link to specs?
> 
> I take it that when you turn your new switch, the motor immediately starts turning in the indicated direction? IOW, you don't have to select a direction and then use the Run/Stop buttons on the VFD to start the motor running?  Just a WAG, but I think the "fwd-rev switch" circuit might work the latter way.
> 
> ...



Nothing special about the switch actually. 

https://www.princessauto.com/en/3-position-select-switch/product/PA0000700324

There is a setting in the VFD that sets the run command channel to panel, terminal, or comms? (it has a Modbus port?). Once you set the command channel to anything but panel, the front panel run, stop, and jog buttons cease to function.  There are 5 low voltage terminals that register 12V against ground.  I assume only one should be active at a time.  There are 25 options that you can configure each terminal to perform but some don't make sense.  For example "Key runs" vs "Wire runs forward".  What key if the front panel is disabled?  If you set the run command channel to panel then the terminals are ignored.

Soooo...… dunno.


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## David_R8 (Jan 28, 2021)

Craig, did you get all the functions on your VFD working?


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Craig, did you get all the functions on your VFD working?



Just FWD and REV, adding more would required a more sophisticated switch than PA sells or multiple switches. 

What are you trying to do?


----------



## David_R8 (Jan 28, 2021)

Nothing on my end but I ran across this on the CNCzone forum
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/spindles-vfd/117782-huanyang-chinese-vfd-settings-manual.html


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Nothing on my end but I ran across this on the CNCzone forum
> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/spindles-vfd/117782-huanyang-chinese-vfd-settings-manual.html



Ok, thanks.  I managed to obtain an English manual for the one I have from an AliExpress vendor


----------



## Proxule (Feb 21, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Hi Craig,
> 
> I have about 20 pieces of 3/4 plywood cut into 2’x8’ sections (4x8 sheet cut in half). You can borrow as many as you think you need to put down onto the gravel to make the hoist roll easier.


Very very generous lol. That stuffs pricey now a days....


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

So following @David_R8 's lead.  I purchased a powder feed from VEVOR for $200 CDN landed.






The PF was delivered Monday so I've been busy making a mount plate.






And lots of swarf in the process.






The PF is to be mounted on the LH side of mill on this lead screw bracket.  The boss will be the registration and note the gitz oiler.  In this image I have already drilled and tapped the mounting holes in the lead screw bracket.






This is the mounting plate.  3-1/2" round stock with registration recess.  The rectangular slot gives me access to the gitz oiler. In this image the PF and mill mounting holes have all been drilled and tapped.






This is the mill side of the PF.  Note the registration recess.






This is the PF side of the mounting plate with registration boss.






I had to make a bushing for the interface between the PF roller bearing and the lead screw.   The one provided wasn't any where near the right size.






I used a milling head tool mounted in a boring bar holder to perform the bushing and drive gear boring.  It worked pretty good.






This is the drive gear shortened and bored out 5/8" to 17mm.






Here she is all mounted up.  I used 1/4-20 SHCS to mount everything.  All seems to work fine although as @David_R8 mentioned it is kind of noisy.  Also it does make cranking by hand a little heavier.  That might get better with time.






This is some stuff that was supplied.  The bushing is the one I had to replace.  Haven't a clue what the springs are for or how the shims are to be used.  The instructions don't mention them at all.


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

Looks good!
You definitely got an X-axis unit as the orientation of the lever is completely different from mine. Is it left to move the table left or is it reversed?


----------



## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Looks good!
> You definitely got an X-axis unit as the orientation of the lever is completely different from mine. Is it left to move the table left or is it reversed?



You're right, your lever is 90 deg but it's labeled the same way.  I'm betting you can position that as you wish some how.  As for which way is left and which way is right I didn't  pay attention.  I'll report back once I have flats on the lead screw for the gear sets screws to land on.  Can you post an image of how you mounted the limit switch please.

Craig


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> You're right, your lever is 90 deg but it's labeled the same way.  I'm betting you can position that as you wish some how.  As for which way is left and which way is right I didn't  pay attention.  I'll report back once I have flats on the lead screw for the gear sets screws to land on.  Can you post an image of how you mounted the limit switch please.
> 
> Craig


You caught me out as I haven't installed the limit switches yet.


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## Hruul (Mar 31, 2021)

Looks great @YYCHM


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> You caught me out as I haven't installed the limit switches yet.



Just an image of the limit switch and stops will do.

Thanks


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Just an image of the limit switch and stops will do.
> 
> Thanks


As soon as I get them done


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> As soon as I get them done



Ya, ok.  does the mounting plate have a distinct bend to it?

As for lever and feed direction.  Left is left and right is right.  What does yours do?


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, ok.  does the mounting plate have a distinct bend to it?
> 
> As for lever and feed direction.  Left is left and right is right.  What does yours do?


Yes it does have a bend.
For me, toward me is right, away from me is left.


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Yes it does have a bend.
> For me, toward me is right, away from me is left.



It's the same then.  The lever is just 90 deg to the left.


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## RobinHood (Mar 31, 2021)

Good job making the adapter plate and still be able to lubricate the original bushing.


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## Brent H (Mar 31, 2021)

Great work Craig!!!  Wow!  You are turning out some great work - thumbs up!!!


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## YotaBota (Mar 31, 2021)

This video shows the springs at about 6:15ish





This ones explains the shims at about 5:00 ish





I heard Davids PF and it sounds about the same as mine.
Welcome to the PF club.


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

Ok now I understand when the mounting bracket is bent.


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## YYCHM (Mar 31, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Ok now I understand when the mounting bracket is bent.



That's not your machine is it?  I'm thinking a new limit switch mounting plate is in order.

As for the F/N/R lever orientation goes, there looks to be a screw holding the speed adjustment knob on and a set screw holding the direction lever on.  I'm betting you can change the lever orientation if you want.


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## David_R8 (Mar 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> That's not your machine is it?  I'm thinking a new limit switch mounting plate is in order.
> 
> As for the F/N/R lever there looks to be a screw holding the speed adjustment knob on and a set screw holding the direction lever on.  I'm betting you can change the lever orientation if you want.


That's a screen shot from the first video Brent posted. 
Thanks for the tip on the lever, I'll have a look as I find it a bit disorienting at the moment.


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## YYCHM (Apr 1, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> That's a screen shot from the first video Brent posted.
> Thanks for the tip on the lever, I'll have a look as I find it a bit disorienting at the moment.



I compromised and mounted the Limit  SW a little off center.






I drilled and tapped one new mounting hole.  I need to keep one of the original mounting hole accessible as it serves as a table lubrication port.

NOW having done this...… I would appear the switch triggers backwards  To kill motion to the right you have to press the button on the right.

How does yours behave?

Craig


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## David_R8 (Apr 1, 2021)

I expect it does that because the unit is not mounted in the expected location. 
Can you pop the cover off and swap the switch locations?


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## David_R8 (Apr 1, 2021)

Your cover in the making.


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## YYCHM (Apr 1, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Can you pop the cover off and swap the switch locations?



I was hoping I could just flip it over, but the screws aren't long enough to accommodate that.






Looks like all I have to do is swap those two inner switches.


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## Hacker (Apr 1, 2021)

Can you just swap the wires and leave the switches in place? It might save you some grief trying to put everything back together.


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## YYCHM (Apr 1, 2021)

Hacker said:


> Can you just swap the wires and leave the switches in place? It might save you some grief trying to put everything back together.



It's tight in there.  You would have to remove the switches to disconnect and swap the wires so it was just easier to swap the switches around.


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## Hacker (Apr 1, 2021)

I agree it looks tight. If they got it in there you can get it out.


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## YYCHM (Apr 3, 2021)

I really didn't like the fact that this PF Limit Switch mounting arrangement negated the application of a hard stop.






So I fixed that niggle.


----------



## Hacker (Apr 3, 2021)

Good work around!!


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 7, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Your cover in the making.
> View attachment 13991



David,

Did this get mailed out yet?  Got any tracking info for it?

Craig


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## YYCHM (Apr 12, 2021)

@David_R8 Cover arrived THANKS!


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## David_R8 (Apr 12, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> @David_R8 Cover arrived THANKS!
> 
> View attachment 14163


Excellent. Now don't be like me and just sand it down and stick it on... give it a coat of latex primer and top coat.
Otherwise it will be grimy in two seconds.


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 12, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Excellent. Now don't be like me and just sand it down and stick it on... give it a coat of latex primer and top coat.
> Otherwise it will be grimy in two seconds.



Looks like I need to relieve the hole a little.  How does it attach to the power feed?


----------



## David_R8 (Apr 12, 2021)

Mine just slips over and is held by friction. 
Don't over-relieve the hole...


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 12, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Mine just slips over and is held by friction.
> Don't over-relieve the hole...



Ok, so the cover spins then?


----------



## David_R8 (Apr 12, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ok, so the cover spins then?


Yup, it's a friction fit over the brass gear hub.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 16, 2021)

I acquired a 6" HV Rotary Table, nothing special, just your plain jane BB RT. Ordered indexing plates on Amazon that were delivered within a week from India.  The plates fit ok, but had to make up a mounting collar for the plates in order to get the crank handle to work acceptably.  Since I have a 5" 3J chuck sitting on the shelf under my lathe doing nothing, I decided to make an adapter plate....






Starting with 6" X 6" X 1/2" plate.






The setup on my mill turned out to be a bit of a challenge.  I decided to drill a centering hole and mill mounting slots in one go.






Finally, with 4 slots, but not after having the plate move in the vise once @@@#$%$%&*(()()






Here it is mounted on my face plate (Thanks @Brent H ).  Initial thoughts were to turn her round on the lathe, but milling it round on the RT is another option.

Suggestions?  Lathe or RT?


----------



## John Conroy (Oct 17, 2021)

I'd  cut off the corners in the bandsaw first and finish on the rotary table.


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## historicalarms (Oct 17, 2021)

Craig, I'm curious, did those elevated vise jaws that allow you to use the full size of the vise slide with spacers involved come factory with the vise or was it a personal addition....if personal, very well done. I would have never thought of doing that until I seen it here and many times I needed "just a little more jaw opening" to grab something.

    I'm with john...cut the corners off first bandsaw, cut-off saw or third choice, torch.   Actually torch is quite viable, just bench grind the hardened outside edge a bit with bench grinder to ease pressure on lathe or mill cutter.


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## YYCHM (Oct 17, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Craig, I'm curious, did those elevated vise jaws that allow you to use the full size of the vise slide with spacers involved come factory with the vise or was it a personal addition....if personal, very well done. I would have never thought of doing that until I seen it here and many times I needed "just a little more jaw opening" to grab something.



I think it's a factory feature.  @Dabbler can you comment?











The jaws are secured with recessed hex cap screws that allow the jaws to be moved to the outside of the fixed and moving portions of the vise.






Normally I use it in this configuration with the jaws on the inside.


----------



## Dabbler (Oct 17, 2021)

@YYCHM you are right - it came from the factory like that.  All Kurt vises and Kurt clones have this feature.


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## YYCHM (Oct 17, 2021)

John Conroy said:


> I'd  cut off the corners in the bandsaw first and finish on the rotary table.



Cutting the corners off on a 6" square on a 4X6 bandsaw isn't as easy as it sounds....






I had to remove the vise fixed jaw and hold her down with a single bolt.  Godda come up with some sort of clamping arrangement for this kind of stuff?






I've decided to try turning it round on the lathe.   If that doesn't go well I'll try the RT.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 17, 2021)

Well that didn't take long at all.....






50 RPM, HSS tool.  Sounded like a drum solo at first but soon settled down to a steady rhythm.  Knew I was close when the swarf started coming off in curls.  I'd call this a success

Now I'm hoping my 4J will hold it so that I can face if off and turn the chuck registration.


----------



## PeterT (Oct 17, 2021)

There's probably lots of different ways to do this job depending on the end result, but another idea is pre drill & tap some holes where the slots will eventually occur. That way you can use standoffs between the face plate & blank with bolts in from behind for the rounding operation as you've done, but also have a means to accurately face each side without having the bolt heads in the way. However you go about this, try & take off equal amounts. Not sure what material you have, but check for stress relief after skimming.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 17, 2021)

Sweet fits in my 4J with just enough stick out to face off and turn the registration.....






I'm loving this Noga holder, should have gotten one years ago.  Would have saved a lot of frustrations.

@PeterT I considered drilling and taping but got frustrated with the mill vise mounting issues and just decided to slot it and be done with it while it was still square rather than having to come back to it when it was round.


----------



## historicalarms (Oct 18, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @YYCHM you are right - it came from the factory like that.  All Kurt vises and Kurt clones have this feature.



   i have a Kurt clone, haven't noticed any mounting holes in the back of the slide but will sure be checking when I get out to the shop next.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 18, 2021)

Faced off and chuck registration added.....






How the hell did I mess up the lengths of the slots that bad






Nailed the chuck registration  She'll go on, but it's gonna be tight.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 18, 2021)

Nailed the chuck mounting holes.....  Hey I'm getting better at this stuff






Used the pointy bullet in the blind mounting holes technique @RobinHood suggested (Thanks Rudy) when I mounted my Bison chuck.






Thought for sure the mounting bolts were M8 but they turned out to be 5/16-18.  Have to source some 5/16 V Head screws now?


----------



## RobinHood (Oct 18, 2021)

Any time Craig. Looks good. You’ll enjoy the gained versatility of your RT.


----------



## historicalarms (Oct 19, 2021)

Well I'll be damned....Craig why didnt you post this 10 yrs ago....I'd 've knowed my vise is taped & threaded already for just that set-up and would've made use of it mannnnny times!!

    Anyhow, and seriously, thanks to you I do know now.


----------



## Johnwa (Oct 19, 2021)

For cutting pieces too big for the vice I clamp a piece of 2x4 in the vice and then clamp the workpiece to that. You need t clamp really well, bolt it down or brace it against the vice jaw so it won’t move.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

Oooops.... This ain't going to work very well






T-Nuts are going to run into the table locks.  I think there is enough room to squeak them by once they are shortened on one side....

What size chuck is appropriate for a 6" RT?


----------



## kevin.decelles (Oct 19, 2021)

I have the same problem.....  I'm using threaded 'nuts' which removed some of the bulk, but its still clumsy.  and just when I think I have it under control, the nut will catch the table locks.

so it would appear a smaller chuck or a smarter way of attaching it is required.  I'm watching your progress so I can mimic your solution.


----------



## Dusty (Oct 19, 2021)

Hey Craig, nice project well done. What if you made new "T" nuts with the threaded hole on the outer end sufficient to clear the table locks. Perhaps there's enough room to drill and tap the "T" nuts you have hopefully they are not hardened. Nipping off the "T" nuts to clear your table locks should work. Just saying!


----------



## PeterT (Oct 19, 2021)

Just have a quick check of potential intersection points as the table turns


----------



## Brent H (Oct 19, 2021)

@YYCHM : my rotary table chuck has face bolts that go through to the table slot T- nuts.  
That is very close for getting the chuck on.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @YYCHM : my rotary table chuck has face bolts that go through to the table slot T- nuts.
> That is very close for getting the chuck on.



Not following?  What's a face bolt?


----------



## John Conroy (Oct 19, 2021)

The bolts go through the face of the chuck into the backplate like this. The bolts would screw into the T


 nuts on the rotary table.


----------



## Dusty (Oct 19, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Not following?  What's a face bolt?



Hey Craig, I didn't catch that one from @Brent H myself, then John cleared my fog with his photo, and here I thought it was another senior thing again. Are you one of them, thank God I'm not alone. LOL

While we are more-or-less on the topic of back plates registrations I'm going to ask this question here. I need to turn a face plate for my new collet chuck, however I'm unsure I'm using the correct technical wording. So my spindle has a (positive registration protrusion) which means that side of my back plate requires a (negative registration). My collet chuck has a (negative registration) which means that side will require a (positive registration). Searched on google and can't come up with the correct official technical terms.

Would some kind member step in here and put me out of my correct term confusion.


----------



## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Hey Craig, I didn't catch that one from @Brent H myself, then John cleared my fog with his photo, and here I thought it was another senior thing again. Are you one of them, thank God I'm not alone. LOL
> 
> While we are more-or-less on the topic of back plates registrations I'm going to ask this question here. I need to turn a face plate for my new collet chuck, however I'm unsure I'm using the correct technical wording. So my spindle has a (positive registration protrusion) which means that side of my back plate requires a (negative registration). My collet chuck has a (negative registration) which means that side will require a (positive registration). Searched on google and can't come up with the correct official technical terms.
> 
> Would some kind member step in here and put me out of my correct term confusion.



Your terminology works for me  Can you not modify the collet chuck to match your spindle and not bother with a mounting plate?  What size is the chuck you have that mounts directly on the spindle?


----------



## PeterT (Oct 19, 2021)

There are probably a few interchangeable words for this. 'Boss' is often used to mean any kind of protruding feature. I see it used often in CAD circles for this kind of thing & a few chuck/backplate references. Sometimes it doesn't have a name, just a numerical dimension. 'Recess' or 'pocket' might be a good word for the negative mating surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_(engineering)


----------



## Dusty (Oct 19, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Your terminology works for me  Can you not modify the collet chuck to match your spindle and not bother with a mounting plate?  What size is the chuck you have that mounts directly on the spindle?





PeterT said:


> There are probably a few interchangeable words for this. 'Boss' is often used to mean any kind of protruding feature. I see it used often in CAD circles for this kind of thing & a few chuck/backplate references. Sometimes it doesn't have a name, just a dimension, 'Recess' or 'pocket' might be a good word for the negative mating surface.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_(engineering)



Thanks for your prompt comments @PeterT, I can work with 'Boss' and 'recess or pocket' make sense to me. Sometimes I read more into the equation than what's really there. Back to aging. LOL


----------



## Dusty (Oct 19, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Your terminology works for me  Can you not modify the collet chuck to match your spindle and not bother with a mounting plate?  What size is the chuck you have that mounts directly on the spindle?



Hey Craig, my lathe is a Craftex B2227L and my spindle has a 127mm diameter face plate attached with 108mm Boss. My collet chuck form the
https://accusizetools.com/ catalog, item #ER3210100, page 29, with a recess of 72mm. I shudder at the thought of modifying the existing spindle face plate. Additionally my 3J is a blonde hair under 5" diameter and my 4J is a Brunet hair over 5" diameter, both have a 108mm recess/pocket base. 

That said, for me the safest way ahead is fasten a second face plate with 108mm recess/pocket on the one side then turn a 72mm Boss on the opposite. Might be a bit of a tricky project getting alignment spot on.


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## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Hey Craig, my lathe is a Craftex B2227L and my spindle has a 127mm diameter face plate attached with 108mm Boss. My collet chuck form the
> https://accusizetools.com/ catalog, item #ER3210100, page 29, with a recess of 72mm. I shudder at the thought of modifying the existing spindle face plate. Additionally my 3J is a blonde hair under 5" diameter and my 4J is a Brunet hair over 5" diameter, both have a 108mm recess/pocket base.
> 
> That said, for me the safest way ahead is fasten a second face plate with 108mm recess/pocket on the one side then turn a 72mm Boss on the opposite. Might be a bit of a tricky project getting alignment spot on.




Ya, don't modify your spindle that's for sure  Thought maybe opening the collet chuck recess to match the spindle might be an option, but I see the collet chuck you got may be a little too small for that.

A little slop in the registration fitment would allow you to bump the collet chuck to minimum runout.  Did that on a chuck mounting plate I had to turn the registration boss on.  Worked well.


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## Dusty (Oct 19, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, don't modify your spindle that's for sure  Thought maybe opening the collet chuck recess to match the spindle might be an option, but I see the collet chuck you got may be a little too small for that.
> 
> A little slop in the registration fitment would allow you to bump the collet chuck to minimum runout.  Did that on a chuck mounting plate I had to turn the registration boss on.  Worked well.



Hey Craig, shall think on that option, might require my shaving a thousand from the 72mm collet Boss when finalizing set up.


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## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> I have the same problem.....  I'm using threaded 'nuts' which removed some of the bulk, but its still clumsy.  and just when I think I have it under control, the nut will catch the table locks.
> 
> so it would appear a smaller chuck or a smarter way of attaching it is required.  I'm watching your progress so I can mimic your solution.




I might have a solution to this issue......






If one was to mill a step such that a hex head bolt would fit under the chuck, shaped as I have marked out here, the T-Nuts can be moved in board and the bolts tightened with a wrench.  What do you think?


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## RobinHood (Oct 19, 2021)

That could work. You’ll need to check that the modification of the chuck does not interfere with the fasteners which hold the two halves together or the pinions or the scroll itself.


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## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> That could work. You’ll need to check that the modification of the chuck does not interfere with the fasteners which hold the two halves together or the pinions or the scroll itself.



Not messing with the chuck, I would mod the mounting plate.


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## RobinHood (Oct 19, 2021)

Ah, ok. So you’d basically countersink the hex bolt deep enough so when tight, the head is below the surface of the plate. Plus you’d mill away enough material to get your spanner on to tighten the bolt. You could always reduce the bolt head height a bit too - and the thickness of the spanner to match.

Have you had this chuck apart? Reason for asking: would there be enough material in the sidewall that you could make the red circled holes through holes and use 3 long bolts all the way through into the T-nut in the RT slot?


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## RobinHood (Oct 19, 2021)

Another question: does your RT have a center hole? If so, you could make a pin to fit into that hole and also machine a matching hole into the mounting plate. That would transfer any radial loads from the chuck (through the register on the plate) to the pin and directly into the RT. You could then reduce the fastener size you use to hold the plate/chuck combo onto the RT. Might give you some more options as well.


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## YYCHM (Oct 19, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Have you had this chuck apart? Reason for asking: would there be enough material in the sidewall that you could make the red circled holes through holes and use 3 long bolts all the way through into the T-nut in the RT slot?








Hmmmmm, it's a 4 slot RT, not 3.


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## RobinHood (Oct 20, 2021)

Right, then that won’t work so well.


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## YotaBota (Oct 20, 2021)

What about using countersunk socket headscrews and V grove the slots so the screw head is just below the level of the chuck. That way you could start the screw in the t-nut and slide it right up to where the hex key meets the chuck then when the chuck is centered tighten down the screws.


RobinHood said:


> you could make a pin to fit into that hole and also machine a matching hole into the mounting plate


 Good point.


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## YYCHM (Oct 20, 2021)

Well.... this might just work....






There isn't much meat left at the bottom of the recess, but with 4 of them I think it should be ok.  A thinner bolt head, a washer and a thinner spanner would help.


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## PeterT (Oct 20, 2021)

Now that I see the chuck apart, I'd be tempted to find a spacing that doesn't intersect jaw or key pinion, drill 4 holes through both lip sides & bolt directly through chuck into RT tee slots. No more middle man plate. That's probably how some of those front mount chucks work. 

I almost always prefer a 4-jaw on RT. By the time I monkey around getting 3J close I may as well dial in the part exactly. Then you can grip odd or rectangular shapes too.


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## Dabbler (Oct 21, 2021)

@PeterT Most RTs have a bored centre (cylindrical or MTx).  RTs that have a manufacturer's 3J chuck usually have a registration boss on the back of the chuck for mounting the chuck concentric to the rotation.  Does yours have this featiure?


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## PeterT (Oct 21, 2021)

@Dabbler, yes my RT has a MT taper in the center & the chucks typically have a recess to mate to a backplate boss. That recess theoretically makes the chuck body concentric to its male counterpart because (at least we hope) the recess was machined first, the jaws then inserted & ground. So good chucks will be close. I'm just saying in reality, the jaws & scroll have their final say in how concentric the part itself will be independent of the recess. I've also seen chucks with MT arbors on the back, but I'm not clear if the have any means to stay put rotationally other than friction.

What I've done, only because I have the doo-dad, is leave the chuck/plate snug but slightly loose on the RT table. Drop an MT test bar into the RT hole (MT on one end, cylindrical on the other) very lightly clamp the jaws on the bar & then secure the plate+chuck in this position. Release the test bar & ready for action. Even this is isn't bulletproof because the jaws are only registering on this particular bar diameter & may be different on another diameter (I think scroll accuracy?). And this may not lend itself to reversed jaws (mouth open) depending on the chuck.

Another homebrew system I've seen is the plate has a circular recess for the chuck OD plus some adjustment allowance & 4 radial set screws that act as a 'Set-Tru' principle. But it still required axial bolts through the chuck body into RT tee slots to retain the chuck axially. And the side loads are concentrated on the small area of set screws vs the boss/recess. For that effort maybe consider dedicating a chuck to the RT but I think the fellow wanted to do turning in the lathe, pop the chuck off with part still in & onto RT to preserve concentricity.

It's all this fiddle farting that makes me think its viable to mount a 4 jaw roughly concentric by eyeball & spend your time dialing in the part itself. But it all depends on the job. If you aren't thou chasing then do what is easiest. Also don't gronk on the test bar obviously, its hardened but bite marks would be a bad thing.


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## Dabbler (Oct 21, 2021)

PeterT said:


> makes me think its viable to mount a 4 jaw



You are centring the chuck exactly as I would have done it.  For 99% of the work *I* do, being +/- .001 or a little more doesn't matter much.  



PeterT said:


> If you aren't thou chasing then do what is easiest.


 
Exactly!

When I go for super accuracy, I use the indexer anyway.


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## YYCHM (Oct 24, 2021)

More progress today....







I'm loving that carbide end mill, it just goes and goes.....  This was all side milling 1/4" DOC, wasn't even paying attention to side DOC, just make a pass and bump her over.  All mill to the line stuff.






Weird eh...  No where near symmetrical....






I'm thinking about turning this drill chuck 2MT arbor round to use as a RT centering jig.  Do you think that will work or is it too hard?


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## YYCHM (Oct 25, 2021)

Ends up you can turn a hardened and ground 2MT taper down.






The very end is hard but further back not so much.  Tool needs sharpening now LOL.






Centering the table to the RT with the 2MT taper....






I assume this is a legit way to center the chuck on the centered RT.  With the mounting plate loose, I clamped the jaws onto a 3/8" tool shank and then tightened down the plate hold down bolts.

@kevin.decelles this arrangement does tuck the T-Nuts in sufficiently.






At @Dabbler 's suggestion I scooched the vise over in order to mount the RT but I'm having my doubts about this arrangement.  Leaving the chuck attached to the RT is definitely a no-go.  As well, the left hand side of the table has limited in board travel due to the power feed. Hmmmmm.....  Maybe a little to crowded I think.


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## Dabbler (Oct 25, 2021)

The idea is to skootch your vise over 4-5" off centre.  This gives you the *opportunity* to mount the RT without moving your vise away (most of the time).  No one leaves their RT on their mill full time.  It's just in the way.

This is fine for most small work.  Once the job gets bigger, you need the RT in the centre of the table anyway, so the vise has to go.


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## YYCHM (Oct 25, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> The idea is to skootch your vise over 4-5" off centre.  This gives you the *opportunity* to mount the RT without moving your vise away (most of the time).  No one leaves their RT on their mill full time.  It's just in the way.
> 
> This is fine for most small work.  Once the job gets bigger, you need the RT in the centre of the table anyway, so the vise has to go.



Thanks for the clarification, I thought this was supposed to be a permanent arrangement.  Now to move my vise back and re-tram it LOL.

BTB - The RT didn't budge when I did the plate milling.  I'm very pleased with that.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2021)

So, now that I have a 6" HV RT I want to try some gear cutting.  I sourced some indexing plates from Amazon that shipped from India, a set of  DP 16 PA 14.5 cutters with R8 arbor from Amazon and a Grizzly tail stock from @140mower (Thanks Don).




First go will be a 14T 1" Dia gear made from aluminum.  This is my setup.  I'm a little perplexed as to how to set the cutter height?






Do you think this is close enough?

Craig


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## Tom O (Nov 18, 2021)

Touch off on the flat of the cutter then lower by 1/2 cutter dia & work dia or you could use the ruler thing between the workpiece and cutter.


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2021)

Well..... It looks like a gear, smells like a gear, has 14 teeth........






I think the teeth are a little too deep.

 I used this website to calculate the tooth depth.

Inputs
Number of Teeth:    14
Diametral Pitch:    16
Pressure Angle:    14.5    degrees
Gear Type:    External

Outputs
Tip Diameter:      25.40    mm    1.00    in
Pitch Diameter:    22.22    mm    0.88    in
Root Diameter:     18.26    mm    0.72    in

Addendum:           1.59    mm    0.06    in
Dedendum:           1.98    mm    0.08    in
Working Depth:      3.17    mm    0.13    in
Whole Depth:        3.57    mm    0.14    in
Circular Pitch:     4.99    mm    0.20    in

© 2021 Evolvent Design,    18-Nov-2021








						Gear Dimensions Calculator | Evolvent Design
					

Calculator to make the right dimensions for a gear or gear blank: calculate gear pitch, outer diameter (OD), root diameter, and clearance.




					evolventdesign.com
				









Meshes OK with what I was trying to replicate.


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## Brent H (Nov 18, 2021)

@YYCHM :  Whole Depth (Preferred) ht = 2.250 ÷ P   so for 16DP your cutter depth is 0.141"


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## DPittman (Nov 18, 2021)

Looks fun and appears you are off to a good start.  I haven't been able to try gear cutting on my mill yet, the only bit I've done was on my lathe with a homemade setup.  
Do you have a gear tooth gauge or how do you determine the needed gear profile?


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @YYCHM :  Whole Depth (Preferred) ht = 2.250 ÷ P   so for 16DP your cutter depth is 0.141"



0.14 is what I dialed in.   Why does this gear have such a narrow flat on the top of each tooth (0.03)?  Doesn't look like the one I was trying to replicate (0.06).


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## YYCHM (Nov 18, 2021)

DPittman said:


> Do you have a gear tooth gauge or how do you determine the needed gear profile?



No, I don't have any gauges to measure gears.  @RobinHood has examined gears from both my lathe and shaper and both were determined to be 16 DP 14.5 PA so I just went with that for a starter set of cutters.


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## Brent H (Nov 18, 2021)

@YYCHM : You have to remember that the simple spur gear cutters arranged in the 8 tooth profile all cut a variety of # of teeth.  So the cutter will only be "somewhat" accurate over the range of teeth it can produce.  Using a hob will allow the teeth to be cut with a more accurate profile over the whole span of tooth number due to its design, cutter angle etc.  

Also check the depth of the tooth profile in the one you are trying to copy.   It may be that the manufacturer cut slightly shallower tooth to match something in the product.  You can mess around with the back lash in this way.


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2021)

Today I tried cutting the same gear in mild steel......






I setup ala @RobinHood style and spritzed it with cutting fluid ever pass.

200 RPM which is 20 HZ on the VFD.  I was really surprised and pleased that my mill would cut a full depth tooth 0.13 in one pass without complaining.











I'm trying to replicate a feed drive gear that's on my shaper.  The original gear is on the right.

Wish I had a wire wheel to knock all the burrs off the cut gear  Still need to cut the key way.  Will need to rig something up on the shaper and that will be this afternoons project.


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## DPittman (Nov 19, 2021)

Nice job!


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## DPittman (Nov 19, 2021)

What hp do you have on your mill?


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## PeterT (Nov 19, 2021)

Nice results! So how are you feeding, like conventional mill one way & climb cut back out. Or no climb at all or...? What about depth, full pass or 80/20 or?

Rather than a wire wheel I use ~ 1" x 1/8" thk rubberized abrasive wheels just in my Dremel. They are dirt cheap on Ali/Amazon & come in multitude of flavors. On Ali you sometimes have to dig into polishing or jewelry keywords. I can dig up the grit specs, but generally for for steel, the coarser (green) ones work well. The finer ones are more towards polishing or softer alloys where you want to control removal rate. I mean if its a heavy burr, best to knock it off with a file or whatever, but for crisper faceted edges & blending the rubber is great. I bought a few Cratex (USA?) brand from KBC just to try. They are probably a better quality but not enough to justify the price difference. But Cratex makes sticks & shapes I can't find the equivalent as readily via same Asia suppliers.


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2021)

DPittman said:


> What hp do you have on your mill?



2 HP


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Nice results! So how are you feeding, like conventional mill one way & climb cut back out. Or no climb at all or...? What about depth, full pass or 80/20 or?
> 
> Rather than a wire wheel I use ~ 1" x 1/8" thk rubberized abrasive wheels just in my Dremel. They are dirt cheap on Ali/Amazon & come in multitude of flavors. On Ali you sometimes have to dig into polishing or jewelry keywords. I can dig up the grit specs, but generally for for steel, the coarser (green) ones work well. The finer ones are more towards polishing or softer alloys where you want to control removal rate. I mean if its a heavy burr, best to knock it off with a file or whatever, but for crisper faceted edges & blending the rubber is great. I bought a few Cratex (USA?) brand from KBC just to try. They are probably a better quality but not enough to justify the price difference. But Cratex makes sticks & shapes I can't find the equivalent as readily via same Asia suppliers.



Not sure what you mean by climb cut back out?  I fed the blank into the cutter and then backed up and positioned the bank for the next tooth.  First tooth I cut to depth in two 50/50 stages.  That went well so I tried full depth on the second tooth and that was ok as well, so every tooth there after was cut full depth in one pass.

What is this rubberized abrasive wheel you mentioned.  I can't picture how that would get between the gear teeth like a wire wheel would. Have link you could post?


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## DPittman (Nov 19, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> 2 HP


That was probably a good decision to go that big.  I used 1.5hp and wonder if it would have enough grunt to do the same as you did at 20hz.


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2021)

DPittman said:


> That was probably a good decision to go that big.  I used 1.5hp and wonder if it would have enough grunt to do the same as you did at 20hz.



Seems to work well at low HZ.  I've done lots of 20-30 HZ 1/2"-1" drilling with it.  Also, 2" face milling and fly cutting 2+".  The original single phase motor was 2HP and I was really tempted to up that with the 3 phase motor, but so far so good.

Also, I think my VFD is one of those torque compensating units and 3HP.


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## RobinHood (Nov 19, 2021)

Nicely done. Seems to work very well.


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## 140mower (Nov 19, 2021)

Looks like you got the hang of it. Nice looking gear. The nice thing about the gear you are making is that it is a slow moving one and I think they only fail when someone allows the travel to exceed it's limits. I have a few gears to make for my big shaper as well, but that's not going to be this years project.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2021)

Well.... I think I can call my gear making venture a success...











Fits and functions just as well as the original.






Cutting the keyway into it turned into a bit of an adventure...  On my first attempt to make a tool holder for the shaper I broke a 1/8" endmill trying to cut a tool slot in 1/2" round.  There after I lost track of depth of cut and cut the slot too deep (top item).  On the second attempt I made it all the way to tapping the hole for securing the cutting tool in the holder when I discovered I hadn't drilled the hole deep enough to allow the tap to cut full size thread.  My attempt to use a bottom tap didn't go well at all (bottom item).







So then I decided to make a sleeve to hold my 3/8" boring bar.  That worked to a point.  First off I ground the cutting tool just a tad too narrow and secondly a 3/8" bar with a protruding cutting tool is a really tight fit in a 1/2" bore.  Setting up was a PITA.  In the end it did cut enough of a keyway (too narrow and too shallow) for me finish off with a needle file.

So, now I'm confident I can make usable gears with my little mill which was the purpose of this exercise in the first place.

I do how ever plan to post a critique of the RT dividing plate kit I got from Amazon as it was not usable out of the box.

Craig


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## 140mower (Nov 20, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Well.... I think I can call my gear making venture a success...
> 
> View attachment 18413
> 
> ...


Looks like you did a great job. Feels good being able to say, ,"yeah, I can make one of those". 
This is what I came up with for my shaper.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2021)

140mower said:


> Looks like you did a great job. Feels good being able to say, ,"yeah, I can make one of those".
> This is what I came up with for my shaper. View attachment 18429



And that is a what?


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## 6.5 Fan (Nov 21, 2021)

I was wondering if factory made gears are hardened at all? I would expect some applications have hardened gears, ie, transmission drives. Does it depend on the use and horsepower?


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## 140mower (Nov 21, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> And that is a what?


That's the bar I made for key ways and other internal features.


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## Blouin55 (Apr 3, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> So following @David_R8 's lead.  I purchased a powder feed from VEVOR for $200 CDN landed.
> 
> View attachment 13967
> 
> ...


Is your back plate made from steel or aluminium?
I have aluminium stock in hand...


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## YYCHM (Apr 3, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Is your back plate made from steel or aluminium?
> I have aluminium stock in hand...



Steel, but aluminum would work fine.


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## Blouin55 (Apr 3, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Steel, but aluminum would work fine.


Just received mine two days ago, i'm planning to install it.


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## YYCHM (Apr 3, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Just received mine two days ago, i'm planning to install it.



Cool... create a new "Your Active Projects" thread and document how you mount it for us.

Craig


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## Blouin55 (Apr 3, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Cool... create a new "Your Active Projects" thread and document how you mount it for us.
> 
> Craig


Will do...


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## Blouin55 (Apr 4, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> So following @David_R8 's lead.  I purchased a powder feed from VEVOR for $200 CDN landed.
> 
> View attachment 13967
> 
> ...


Did you have to make a keyway on the shaft to get the drive gear solid in place?


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## YYCHM (Apr 4, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Did you have to make a keyway on the shaft to get the drive gear solid in place?



No, I filed two flats on the shaft and used setscrews to secure the drive gear.  @David_R8 did the same thing.


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## David_R8 (Apr 4, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> No, I filled two flats on the shaft and used setscrews to secure the drive gear.  @David_R8 did the same thing.


@Blouin55 filing shafts onto the flat was very easy. Too easy really...


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## Blouin55 (Apr 4, 2022)

This guy ready for holes and threads


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## Blouin55 (Apr 7, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> So following @David_R8 's lead.  I purchased a powder feed from VEVOR for $200 CDN landed.
> 
> View attachment 13967
> 
> ...


Did you used 1/4-20 for the set screws ?


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## David_R8 (Apr 7, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Did you used 1/4-20 for the set screws ?


I think I used 1/4-20 as that's what I had on hand.


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## YYCHM (Apr 7, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Did you used 1/4-20 for the set screws ?



Too long ago for me to remember LOL, but ya 1/4 should work.


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## Blouin55 (Apr 7, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> Yup, it's a friction fit over the brass gear hub.


Where is that cover coming from...


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## YYCHM (Apr 7, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Where is that cover coming from...



@David_R8 3D printed it for me.  Thanks David!


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## Blouin55 (Apr 7, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> @David_R8 3D printed it for me.  Thanks David!


Lucky man!


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## David_R8 (Apr 7, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Lucky man!


Let me know if you want one


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## Blouin55 (Apr 7, 2022)

Cannot say no...just tell me how much it cost...


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## David_R8 (Apr 7, 2022)

Blouin55 said:


> Cannot say no...just tell me how much it cost...


Can you post the diameter of the outside of the gear. Just want to make sure it's the same.


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## Blouin55 (Apr 7, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> Can you post the diameter of the outside of the gear. Just want to make sure it's the same.


2.982 inches


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