# Single lip cutter /U3 tool cutter grinder / Deckel SO clone



## Perry (Jan 16, 2020)

Ok, the problems with -30C weather is you tend to shop the internet a bit too much.








Anyone own one of these Chinese clones?   I've read a little about them. Would like to hear your experience.

I see they are hard to find in a 110-120V machine.   Shars sells a 110-120V machine, but most of the ones I see are 220V.

Is there a preferred model?   One better then the other?  Is there a Canadian supplier?   I see Grizzly carried them at one point, but are now discontinued. 


Anyone have a lead on a used one or maybe a used Deckel?



Thankyou.


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2020)

I'm ashamed to confess I have one from Accusize Canada that is waiting on a suitable new workbench construction & related mini shop re-org that always seems to 'next weeks' project. So it has seen very low run time. 
https://www.accusizetools.com/2301-...-grinder-with-standard-accessories-110v-60hz/
One thing that influenced my decision as R8 collets vs. the ?name? skinny ones that Deckels & Asian clones predominantly use. I don't think there is disadvantage to R8 from a functionality standpoint, but R8 is much more common, wider size range & less expensive. The Accusize is made in China as are most in this price class. The ones from Taiwan are +2X this price & not sure R8 is an option. Two good resources to watch are Stefan Gotteswinter & Rob Renzetti Youtube vids. They show some of the tweaks & tune-ups they did to their (Chinese) versions. AFAIK both Shars & Grizzly are Chinese.


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## Perry (Jan 16, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I'm ashamed to confess I have one from Accusize Canada that is waiting on a suitable new workbench construction & related mini shop re-org that always seems to 'next weeks' project. So it has seen very low run time.
> https://www.accusizetools.com/2301-...-grinder-with-standard-accessories-110v-60hz/
> One thing that influenced my decision as R8 collets vs. the ?name? skinny ones that Deckels & Asian clones predominantly use. I don't think there is disadvantage to R8 from a functionality standpoint, but R8 is much more common, wider size range & less expensive. The Accusize is made in China as are most in this price class. The ones from Taiwan are +2X this price & not sure R8 is an option. Two good resources to watch are Stefan Gotteswinter & Rob Renzetti Youtube vids. They show some of the tweaks & tune-ups they did to their (Chinese) versions. AFAIK both Shars & Grizzly are Chinese.



Wow, you really pay a premium to get that in Canada.  It looks like it does not come with the extra tool holding adapters?    Lathe bit ,drill and end mill fixtures.

One good thing about the R8 is you can get R8 collects with a square cutout.   Would be nice to hold square stock to shape special cutters.

I'm going to keep researching how to get one of these on a hobby budget.


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## PeterT (Jan 16, 2020)

Hmmm, you're right. Not only has Accusize has gone up almost 200$C since I got mine, they have separated off the attachments that came with.

The Shars is currently 917USD with the 3 attachments so thats 1200CDN (FOB Illinois). So add trucking, possibly duty (not sure there). Its heavy so transport wont be cheap. But now I'm actually having a bit of remorse, the Shars is 5C collet which I already have have a full set. That wasn't available at the time, dangit.
https://www.shars.com/products/mach...l-end-mill-cutter-drill-bit-grinder-sharpener


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

Would you know what the difference is between a U2 and a U3?   Nothing really documented on it.


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

I seem to recall they are slightly different machines. I might have some docs at home.

Another thought Im going to investigate is buying the 5C collet  block off Shars assuming its a drop in & reasonable cost. Or maybe make a replacement myself.


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

Hmm.. more to the collet block than just R8/5C hole. It has inter-related parts in the assembly. I looked at the Shars manual & there isn't really isn't a parts breakdown. I will email them & see what they have to say & have a closer look at mine. Yes, definitely buyers remorse. 5C would have been a much better fit to my existing collets.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

I read a thread about a gentlemen who had ordered a unit and it did not come with the head he wanted.   Tried to switch it out and it was not easy.   He had to change machines.   Let me see if I can find thread.

The reason I asked about the U2 is I found a used U2.  (with U2 collets, if that is the correct name.)  Only comes with two collets but I was reading that you can make a U2 to ER20 collet adapter.   I have a set of ER20 collets.  

Let me see if I can find that thread.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

Ok, found it. 

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/import-tool-cutter-grinder.51638/

Follow along with user C-Bag.   Sounds like he is from the U.S.    Bought a unit from Canada. It showed up with the Deckel style collets and he wanted the R8.   Ended up swapping the whole machine at their L.A. location to get a R8 collet.


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

Thanks, that rings a bell. Just checking into this some more I think it’s hands down easier for me to get an R8 collet set. Seems like yet another grip standard but they can be had for less then what I’m sure the 5C head assembly assuming it fits. I guess I could use R8 for my mill too although I have done without them thus far. Haven’t thought this through but there could be other possible R8 tooling synergies, possibly like gripping an R8-ER-16 head or R8- mini drill chuck although not sure what that would accomplish over regular R8 collets.
Back to U1 U2 that might be shorthand notation for the collets themselves? Maybe I’m mixed up by seeing different machines but could be the cooler was the defining feature. Look up SO and SOE. I think maybe there are naming equivalencies more common in Europe. I know RDG tools sell them & possibly square & hex hole. I’ve also seen them on EBay Ali Asaian suppliers but cant speak to quality.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

I just called Shars.   $916.95US for unit.   $230-250US shipping to residential address.   She was nice enough to tell me I could save by sending it to a commercial address.  $140-160US.  (I'll ship direct to 7-11, that is where I end up picking most of my packages anyway.....lol....I'm guessing I'll need to find a commercial address to ship to.)

They ship under tarrif item number 8460 3100 80.   That shows a Base Rate: Free.
And last but not least ......exchange rate.    

On a good side I was able to find out these do go on sale at approx. $825.00.US   I was also given the offer of the sale price.   


I have found a used U2 unit (Taiwan version) with a 1/2 and a 3/8 U2 style collet.   For $850.00 Canadian.   I'm waiting to find out if he has the three fixtures with it.  Shars comes with the three fixtures.
I would also need to ship this unit from Ontario.   Probably some flex in the price.


Something to think about.


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## Dabbler (Jan 17, 2020)

So a pro tip in dealing with Shars.  For anything 40 lbs or over you can _request by phone_ to use the ground transport company they prefer (I can't remember the name).  That will cut your shipping in about half.

You can also have them ship to a border forwarding service like DYK.  Shars ships most items at a significant discount to US addresses.  THe DYK fees for 50 lbs might shock you though.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> So a pro tip in dealing with Shars.  For anything 40 lbs or over you can _request by phone_ to use the ground transport company they prefer (I can't remember the name).  That will cut your shipping in about half.
> 
> You can also have them ship to a border forwarding service like DYK.  Shars ships most items at a significant discount to US addresses.  THe DYK fees for 50 lbs might shock you though.




Great tips.   Thankyou.    She did mention the shipping service and I forgot the name too.   She said it would be my best option and I believe the quotes I gave above are for that company.

I'll check with DYK on Monday and see what they will cost. 

If I use the MAX commercial quote, that only works out to about $200 Canadian.   I'm thinking that will be hard to beat by using the forwarding company.


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

I called Shars too. They must be wondering what the heck is going on with these Canucks LOL. Exact same price you mentioned Perry & they asked same question on residential vs commercial address. At least they are a USA based company receptive to selling to Canada. Alternatively I could get it shipped to my DYK Montana address for reduced (in-USA) shipping. I didn't get a price on that but confirmed DYK estimated 65$ to truck 100 pounds Montana to Calgary. Don't hold me to it but I think after 70 pounds DYK goes by a $/10 lb increment. It may not be published on teh web site. Good to know for future considerations. GST & any duty is always on top of course. 

As mentioned I will stick with the R8 spindle. The grinder is bought & paid for. 5C would have been more efficient for me, but it wasn't an option I was aware of or maybe existed back then. I recall the Grizzly worked out more expensive & no longer sell them. But R8 is not the end of the world. I have aspirations for this little grinder but the other projects are taking the spare time for now.

But the big lesson in all this is Accusize is no longer competitive on this particular item assuming they are similar quality, Now otoh, Shars is showing that price as 'sales price'. But I have seen comparable discounts on other items that seem to be in perpetuity, so I'm not sure if its sale-sale or feel good sale.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

PeterT,

Strange, I do not see that price.   It only shows the $916.95.  Now you have me worried it is going up in price.    Where did you see that?

With the extra 10% off she quoted $825US.  Is that the quote she gave you or the $916? (after the discount)

If DYK is looking for approx $65.00 and Shars will ship all the way here for $200.00   Probably not worth the effort to ship to DYK, I can see there being that much cheaper than $140 Cad. to get it to Montana.   Plus only one company to deal with.


I'm still waiting on a reply from the Canadian U2 but he is going to have to drop his price and I'm really hoping it has the three attachments with it.     Then I'll be stuck with the U2 style collets, but I'll have the Taiwan version which is supposed to be a higher quality.


How would you guys spend my money?    Go for the newer machine  or a cheaper (questionable higher quality)  used machine?  The brand of the used U2 in Canada is Michaellin Tools,


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

Perry, the regular price $1380 comes when you click on the catalog link. The web always shows the current price. But like I was saying, I'm nor sure 'sale' really means 'sale'. I wasn't aware of the $825 but that's because my the conversation was more around possibility of only getting the 5C spindle part. Then I just asked for ballpark shipping to Canada for the entire grinder just to know. One more detail to check into, you may have to self-clear customs as I think their role ends at transporting. I'm not sure what that entails logistics & fees wise, it may vary by the transport outfit they used. 

Some folks reference RDG for U1 collets. Vertex is a good name assuming they are legitimate Taiwan. There is non-Taiwan, Chinese collets I've seen but cant vouch for quality.
https://www.rdgtools.co.uk/cgi-bin/...N=NEW-VERTEX-U2-COLLET-11MM-1603.html#SID=134


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## PeterT (Jan 17, 2020)

Here's a quote I got from Bauer (BC) in 2017. It is the Taiwan made machine, accessories extra.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

Ok, I see that price in the catalog.   That $825 is looking better now.   

Take a look at the used one...... I don't know if it is because it is dirty but it looks better.   The metal handles on the locks. The metal knurled knob on the top locking screw.   Compared to what looks like plastic handles on the Shars.    I know , all these things can be changed, it is the things you can not see that I'm worried about.


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## Perry (Jan 17, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Here's a quote I got from Bauer (BC) in 2017. It is the Taiwan made machine, accessories extra.



That would end it there.  Totally out of my hobby budget.  Even if that is Canadian dollars, which I'm guessing it is.


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## Dabbler (Jan 18, 2020)

I think the one from Bauer is speculatively priced...


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## PeterT (Jan 18, 2020)

The real question is wear vs price. Hard to judge from where we are standing. The grime & handles that's easy peasy. Renzetti says the slide bar & feed mechanism is the heart of the machine which I believe, kind of like the lathe bed & dial feeds. If the price was real good & it didn't have a lifetime of hours on might be worth it. 

I actually don't know yet what constitutes a proper collet set, it surely must vary by person. Some shops I imagine spend say 80% of time on a few common shaft sizes resharpening. Or maybe even grinding tools in production mode so they do 100 cutters all with 3/8 shank, that type of thing. There are also other fixtures to mount irregular shanks that so that's another option. I'm looking forward to getting service out of mine, especially custom cutters.


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## PeterT (Jan 18, 2020)

Perry said:


> That would end it there.  Totally out of my hobby budget.  Even if that is Canadian dollars, which I'm guessing it is.


As it did for me & yes $CDN. The interesting thing to know is a real Deckel is 3X this price which is why old whipped ones on Ebay go for big bucks. the best garage sale score you could ever find is a Deckel.

As far as I'm concerned we live in glorious times that a ~75% equivalent clone can be had for substantially lower prices. Yes there are people who have home built somewhat equivalent machines. But they are pretty involved projects, the better ones involving castings. So choose yer poison.


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## Janger (Jan 19, 2020)

@Alexander in your experience do any shops send end mills of any kind out for sharpening?

Peter/Perry how long would it take to sharpen a 1/2” 4 flute carbide end mill?


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## Perry (Jan 19, 2020)

I'm not too sure.   From what I read there is a bit of a set up time for drill bits or endmills.  Once you get it set up it appears fairly fast on youtube.

My main plan for mine if I manage to get one is to cut special cutters and maybe single point cutters for small gears. (really small gears-watch size)
I gave up on the idea of sharpening end mills a long time ago.  Drill bits on the other hand......I think I'll be building one of these.

https://www.gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html#Facet4


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## PeterT (Jan 20, 2020)

Not necessarily about the grinder but recent Stefan video on the 2 collet systems in question (starts around 4:50). Note the comments about the offshore clones of Deckel collets. Not the end of the world especially in a grinder but something to be aware of. This also got me thinking maybe my idea of an R8-ER## collet adapter is maybe not such a crazy notion. I'll have to see if it fits the head though.


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## Dabbler (Jan 21, 2020)

I have an R8-ER40 collet adapter and a set of ER  collets if you want to try them out.


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## PeterT (Jan 21, 2020)

Thanks John. I have an R8 ER 16 or 20 I can’t recall. I suspect the nut length may factor in what can be accommodated in the grinder head so likely smaller is better. I’m going to scope lumber for bench materials now that we have a break from minus 40 billion Celsius.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 21, 2020)

Still that is over 1000 USD to get it here plus don't forget tax on it 5% as well as brokerage fee (if you use Border Bee that would be like 30 CAD).

For about same price you can get Universal tool cutter grinder with accessories. I lost an auction like over a year ago for one with motorized work head and some other stuff that went in for over 1300 (which I thought was excessive). Few months ago I picked up British made from 1960s J&S Universal Tool Cutter Grinder for over 700 with fees - I think with drive to Edmonton to pick it up it worked out like 850. However, it has no motorized work head  I just replaced belt on it. So far it is setup to only do HSS lathe tool bits - which was its previous job. Chinese new motorized work head is around 600-700 so as you can see a bit tooled up cutter grinder is around 1500. 

Of course TC&G is way better tool then Deckel clone - if you actually have accessories for it. 

My plan is lathe HSS, eventually HSS for horizontal mill, drill bits (through its not that easy), HSS end mills. 

I just sharpened 2 sets of knives for wood planner but I used surface grinder. 

I know some people don't have space. Yes its an issue. Yes T&CG come very rarely on sale these days - I have been looking for one for few years. And yes, some accessories may cost few arms and few legs.


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## PeterT (Jan 21, 2020)

I've been on the lookout for a used clone of Deckel for years. Strangely they just don't seem to come up often. I'm not sure why. 
Real Deckel's, forget it, very expensive if the seller has teh faintest idea what they are worth. Or they are 'well used' with issues.
I have seen older T&CG's but most seemed very heavy, at least for my purposes.
Do you have a pic of your J&S model?


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## PeterT (Jan 21, 2020)

I rest my case LOL
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...-grinder-sharpener-made-in-germany/1481580979


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## Perry (Jan 22, 2020)

I was told (lol) that I actually wanted a Cutter Master.  Not the U3 clone.    

Well those are not cheap either.     I did find a Chinese clone of it.    (Not cheap)

https://www.made-in-china.com/showr...iluerJNzkVhSTc/China-Cutter-Master-M6020.html

The cutter master actually looks simple enough to build a smaller scaled down version.


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## Dabbler (Jan 22, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I rest my case LOL
> https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...-grinder-sharpener-made-in-germany/1481580979



That looks like a very good one.  Probably worth it if you are scrooge mcduck.


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## John Conroy (Jan 22, 2020)

A used Deckel on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.ca/Deckel-SO-66-8918-Cutter-Grinder-Accessories/dp/B076L2JJGJ


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 22, 2020)

This is the best I have - it is as it was at pickup location - I take pictures with me so when something is missing I can dispute it.
Its about 700kg. So not light at all. Table swivels. Its from 1960s. Uses strange groved belt drive - but was not an issue to replace as it is used in ... cars. It does not have a big footprint - like a larger pedestal grinder.
Main issue for me is accessories - fully accessorized TC&G can be very expensive. Some attachments - like radious attachment are so expensive most people figured out they never go through enough ball end mills to pay for it.

Used Deckel does cost arm and a leg.

That other Kijiji Deckel is way, way too many arms and legs. 

Remember people that it is just this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_cutter_grinder#D-bit_grinder
It can sharpen end mills (tips only) and do lathe bits. I.e. it is less capable then a surface grinder by a wide margin. Maybe you can get more mileage out of it but not too much more - with some thought and some more attachments.


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