# Welding carts & compressed gases



## ShawnR (Feb 10, 2022)

Time for show and tell kids. Now that I want to consolidate welders, wondering what it is that I don't know (lots, but....)

I have seen some photos on here of custom welding carts holding welders or welding plasma units. Anyone up for sharing?

I am thinking angle iron for the corners (most of it I guess) but 1" square would do a nice job too. I am a little concerned about tipping over but also maintaining a small foot print. I think the casters slightly outside of the frame helps with this and does not add much to the square area. Two bottles on the back, one for Mig and one for Tig. Rod storage, accessories....geez, as I type, it is getting more complicated! Show what you did that you like and maybe don't like...?


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## David_R8 (Feb 10, 2022)

Here’s what I built for my Primeweld and Millermatic MIG.
Still need to add a drawer under the TIG to hold consumables and make some rod holders.
The frame was made from a warehouse cart that I bought for $50 and cut into pieces.


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## David_R8 (Feb 10, 2022)

This is my Sketchup sketch that I made to work out the idea.


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## ShawnR (Feb 10, 2022)

Thanks @David_R8  Nice job! Did you put the larger welder on top for easier access to the controls? My OCD would have me putting it on the bottom, for that balance, pyramid/stable look but your build makes a whole lot more sense from a user perspective. I think that will be my situation too as the Mig 180 does not have much on the front either. But I need to remember to access the side door for roll changes.


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## David_R8 (Feb 10, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Thanks @David_R8  Nice job! Did you put the larger welder on top for easier access to the controls? My OCD would have me putting it on the bottom, for that balance, pyramid/stable look but your build makes a whole lot more sense from a user perspective. I think that will be my situation too as the Mig 180 does not have much on the front either. But I need to remember to access the side door for roll changes.


You got it, it's on the top for ease of access to the controls. It's pretty much at eye level when I'm sitting at my welding table. 
I need to figure out how to get my plasma cutter on the cart now. The MIG faces forward because the cables stick out so much, 
The best feature are the custom made, tank belts. They were made by a member who is local to me. He is a kick-butt fabricator with a to-die-for shop.


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## 6.5 Fan (Feb 10, 2022)

My mig welder is a large Miller unit on it's own set of wheels, to damn heavy to add anything else to it. My other welder is a large AC/DC gas driven rig that is getting a trailer for it to travel about the farm as needed. I may build something for a plasma cutter that i'm planning on purchasing this spring, haven't made up my mind on which one yet.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 10, 2022)

My two cents...I've built a few welding carts in my day although my last couple of machines came with running gear. Some lessons I learned from copying big blue and big red:

1) Consider lowering your tank shelf. I know it is extra design and fab work, but it is worth it. As you get older picking up those tanks is dangerous and no fun for your back. The lower shelf makes it much easier (see pic). Even with the lower shelves on my MIG and TIG, I still had to downsize my tanks to "K's" as I got older so I could handle them without an assistant. It's no biggie when you are in your 20's or even 30's, but those T tanks hurt at 50 years old. The lower shelf means you can just tip them on and off easily because they are only an inch off the ground. The lip on the shelf serves two purposes; it strengthens the sheet metal and catches stuff that falls (like nuts, bolts, screws, etc.), from falling off and getting into the wheels (see #2 below).

2) Consider much larger rear wheels. In a shop environment larger rear wheels means the inevitable rocks, nuts, bolts, etc., that fall on the floor and get trapped under the wheels are easier to navigate. Front wheels with swivels can just be maneuvered around small obstacles, but fixed back ones can get hung up. You don't want to be tugging on anything that big or top heavy if this happens.

3) Hangers for cords, etc., are great, but be careful not to add them in such a way that the cart is too wide or ungainly to fit where you intend to put it. A great option is to install nutserts/rivnuts or PlusNuts in various locations in the tubing or angle iron you build it from. This way you can paint/powder coat the cart and it looks nice, and later bolt on hangers for stingers, ground cables, etc., if needed without having to sand off your paint, weld on a hanger, and re-paint.

4) Do paint it. Unlike a welding table where you want electrical conductivity, there is always a risk of shorting things out on a welding cart. Especially if you build it to also hold a plasma cutter at some point (which many people do), your don't want a clear path to ground through a compressed gas tank. Paint offers some protection.

Happy cart building. It's a great welding project.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 10, 2022)

Here's my stab at the problem.  I built the main frame first, then added the bottle holder a few months later (common theme in my projects....) 2x2x1/4" angle
















Maybe one day I'll get around to finishing the cord hooks, and painting it.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 10, 2022)

Gotta love expanded metal. It's so versatile.


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## Tom O (Feb 10, 2022)

I went for go big or go home. The cable holders are square tubing that fits into another piece of square tube they can be removed or turned also.










I‘m not sure how you all transport your bottles to get filled but this is how I do it.


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## LRSbm146 (Feb 10, 2022)

Holy smokes what are you guys building? That’s some serious welding equipment. 
At work we run Miller only and the machines are on wheels but they’re terrible to move. The machine, 2 bottles, dual spool, and 200’ of cable is way to much. 
At home my machine is stationary and have enough reach to weld at the neighbors house. But I only use tig and stick.


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## Tom O (Feb 10, 2022)

This isn’t that movable either but it can be if it had to.


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## Degen (Feb 11, 2022)

Tom O said:


> I went for go big or go home. The cable holders are square tubing that fits into another piece of square tube they can be removed or turned also.
> 
> View attachment 20926
> View attachment 20927
> ...


Some advice..... transport it resting (strapped) against the front of the bed so if you crash (head on is the worse) it doesn't break free and become a high pressure launched bomb as those straps won't hold it.

Second have it covered in case you get stopped, there are laws regarding tank transportation, and you don't want to find out its wrong $$$$, even if you've secured it extremely well.


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## Brent H (Feb 11, 2022)

Hey @ShawnR : a bit of a twist on the welding “cart” so to speak.  I have everything in the table.  




Welding gas is in a quick connect so you can remove it and the bottles are then stored away from the welding and secured to the wall. 






There is a slide out bin that keeps the crap off the welding stuff.  Still requires some cleaning due to grinding dust ext. 








Bottles on the wall. 





The whole table is on castors and is easy to move.  In good weather I can push it outside.  The vice and bandsaw stand can pullout and you can insert some pipes for plasma or torch cutting.   Works great for my application and I don’t have a welding cart and a welding bench.  I have enough stick cable to run out to the driveway for fixing things a bit farther away.  Welder is grounded to the bench (you can see in pic 1) and there is a connection (yellow cap) where you can extend the ground.  

You have more machines but it might be possible to arrange them with some tool boxes and have a kick a$$ bench/welding cart. With the quick connect gas and remote bottles it cleans up fast and you can then use the table for other things - like painting a bell housing - LOL.


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## ShawnR (Feb 11, 2022)

@Brent H that is indeed a nice system! I have a welding bench which is kind of my everything bench, and then a cutting table that tucks under another bench. I think I want to stick to relatively the same foot print that the Lincoln 180 takes up, so building up...


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 11, 2022)

I thought long and hard about building my welding table like that Brent (nice job!), but at the end of the day, I do a lot of welding outside, and just prefer to wheel the cart to either the back door, or front door and work that way.  I will end up building out the base of my welding table for storage at some point though. It was a close decision though.  In certain shops, depending on the work you do it would be a good way to go.  My space is tight enough as it is to just wheel the cart around, I don't have enough room to move the whole table lol

For stick welding I have about 50' of leads, I just leave it there.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 11, 2022)

Tom O said:


> I‘m not sure how you all transport your bottles to get filled but this is how I do it.
> 
> View attachment 20928


Tom, that's a great idea with the straps for transporting cylinders. Really clever.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 11, 2022)

I do mine a similar way except I built a cradle out of 2x4s that slots into my box cross ways.  I snap a pic of it tomorrow.  It keeps jerry cans , and my milk crate of straps from sliding around too.


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## Six O Two (Feb 11, 2022)

This is what I'm using these days. I was using those flimsy carts that you always see as part of the entry level kits with the angled top. My tig machine didn't even fit on it, so I screwed a larger plywood platform on it, but once I got a mig machine, I started scheming on how to properly store the welders. I'd seen ZT Fab's welding cart kits and seeing as I had an extra tool cabinet, thought I'd try my hand at fabbing up my own (because I'm cheap, and those ZT Fab ones are spendy).  The frame is mostly 1" square tube









 




As part of the build, I also build myself a sheet metal bending brake to make the additional upper two drawers, top, and bottle tray. Pretty happy with how the drawers turned out, even if they're not 100% identical. Lots of room for consumables, pedals, torches, and all that in the tool chest. I need to modify it to add tig rod storage though.


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## phaxtris (Feb 11, 2022)

Here is my mess, it's not pretty but it only cost me those two front casters, everything else was scraps/salvaged, it's ugly but it works


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## Tom O (Feb 11, 2022)

phaxtris said:


> Here is my mess, it's not pretty but it only cost me those two front casters, everything else was scraps/salvaged, it's ugly but it works


That’s all you need though it holds everything.


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## Doggggboy (Feb 11, 2022)

All you fancy boys are going to make me feel bad
Less than 10 bucks each at PA for furniture dollies.
Screw the base down and run some ready wrap around the bottles to secure them to the welder..
This is a step up from the shopping cart I used to use.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 11, 2022)

Before I built my cart I had my tig welder on a convertible hand truck.  Whatever works with what you got.  

I have more than a few things in the basement up on those PA moving dollies.  You can't beat the price when they go on sale.  I need to pick up some more the next time I'm there.

I've been shopping online with them the past couple orders because the shipping is cheaper than driving the truck over there, and it usually saves me about $100 in buying a bunch more stuff than I initially went there for .


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 11, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> ....and it usually saves me about $100 in buying a bunch more stuff than I initially went there for .


I know you're not doing this intentionally, but you almost make it sound like a bad thing when this happens.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 11, 2022)

Not a bad thing, just reality lol. PA is like home depot and canadian tire.  I call them all the hundred dollar store, because it doesn't matter what you innitially went for, you're not getting out of any of them without spending at least a hundred dollars lol.  I call Costco the $300 dollar store..... 

"I know I only came in here for a lightbulb, but while I'm here, I should go check out the.....BAM $100". 

.


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## Tom O (Feb 11, 2022)

I miss the old Princess Auto in the 70/80s they were the place for build components


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## Doggggboy (Feb 11, 2022)

Tom O said:


> I miss the old Princess Auto in the 70/80s they were the place for build components


Yes.
The surplus aisle is only 5% of the store now.
Everything else is just container loads from offshore.
I remember when the catalog had used aircraft tires.


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## YYCHM (Feb 11, 2022)

Doggggboy said:


> Yes.
> The surplus aisle is only 5% of the store now.
> Everything else is just container loads from offshore.
> I remember when the catalog had used aircraft tires.



Sounds like what Amy & Navy was in the 60/70's


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## SomeGuy (Feb 11, 2022)

Here's mine:


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 11, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> Here's mine:
> 
> View attachment 20968


So that's what a neat shop looks like, eh? I always wondered....


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## SomeGuy (Feb 11, 2022)

CalgaryPT said:


> So that's what a neat shop looks like, eh? I always wondered....


Actually that's pretty messy for me lol


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## PeterT (Feb 11, 2022)

Nice carts. I don't urgently NEED a welder, but I admit I've been THINKING about a welder and... what just happened there?... did I actually click the BUY button?


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## Mcgyver (Feb 12, 2022)

For me, its about preservation of space.  Like many,  I went vertical MIG and TIG stacked. (there's also O/A, a buzz box and propane available).   I bought an inverter TIG specifically because they are small so I could make a small cart.  TIG is on a shelf, 220V Mig pack sits on top.  There is one shelf where the helmet and bulk stuff fits and steel drawer at the bottom (on ball bearing drawing slides) for more stuff.  There are cut outs in the top to hold welding pliers, square etc.   

Currently the MIG is in the basement awaiting deployment.  Plans are underway to invade and capture another room.  Steel is procured, and hidden from view.  All is ready....just waiting for a stealthy moment to weld up the benches, .....and the old laundry shall be mine, all mine!


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## ShawnR (Feb 12, 2022)

@Mcgyver yes, you get it. As much as I feel like I am trading down as far as quality of machines, I am gaining floor space and convenience, and modern technology. The features of the new machine will be great to have but probably way beyond my needs and capabilities right now. Having those options though in the new welder might inspire me to learn how to use and appreciate them, ie pulse, variable frequencies, etc. 

It should arrive on Monday. WooWoo!


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## YYCHM (Feb 12, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Nice carts. I don't urgently NEED a welder, but I admit I've been THINKING about a welder and... what just happened there?... did I actually click the BUY button?



What did you buy LOL?


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## PeterT (Feb 12, 2022)

I haven't yet. Its not a super priority but the more I ponder, the more projects I can envision using it for so one day I will bite the bullet. Still collecting information, its a chunk of change so pays to do some research & hear peoples opinions. The peripheral issues are where to store it properly & also a welding work surface I have to figure out, so there will be some shop shuffling to accommodate. These pics & discussions have been helpful to me.


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## Susquatch (Feb 12, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> Actually that's pretty messy for me lol



Remind me to NEVER invite you here. My place looks like @CalgaryPT's moose trashed it after getting gored.........


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Remind me to NEVER invite you here. My place looks like @CalgaryPT's moose trashed it after getting gored.........


Just keepin' it Canadian.


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## Degen (Feb 13, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Remind me to NEVER invite you here. My place looks like @CalgaryPT's moose trashed it after getting gored.........


I feel your pain.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 14, 2022)

I bought a Miller Syncrowave 180SD on Saturday . It was complete and in excellent condition , I do need to buy a flow meter . I’m gonna ditch the cart , it’s overkill and too big for my smallish garage . I’ll be building one soon to suit my needs . This is my first Tig , I’ve had a few Mig welders . I need to lease a bottle of Argon .The cart in the picture will be for sale .


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## Degen (Feb 15, 2022)

PA in Bolton has 3 heavy duty carts on clearance for $90 vs 260 in the front entrance today.


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## Darren (Feb 15, 2022)

Here's my cart. Hypertherm 45xp, my faithful Lincoln sp170 (probably burned 1000lbs of er70s, or more, never an issue,  bought new in '92), and an AC/DC stick welder. It's from acklands,  but Miller sold the same welder. I've had it for 25 years, and my neighbor bought a new Miller, and it's identical. 

The cart itself was some type of medical cart that I modified.  The cord hooks are old u-bolts I collected.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 18, 2022)

I went shopping for steel today , my cart build is going well , most of the pieces  are cut for the lower structure.







    I will put the old cart up For sale in the classifieds










The cart that was included in my recent welding machine purchase is beefy & a bit overkill for my rapidly shrinking work space . At todays prices for steel etc . , it would cost $400 + in materials to build this .


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## ShawnR (Feb 18, 2022)

@Gearhead88 do you have a plan or are you winging it? I started on mine. Been going through my stock to see what I have and designing around it, while using this thread and Google images for ideas. I don't have firm plan but do have a general idea. Found some large wheels I did not recall owning. Have the base framed so similar to where you are at, from what I see. 

Because I asked for photos, I guess I better supply some, eh?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 18, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> @Gearhead88 do you have a plan or are you winging it? I started on mine. Been going through my stock to see what I have and designing around it, while using this thread and Google images for ideas. I don't have firm plan but do have a general idea. Found some large wheels I did not recall owning. Have the base framed so similar to where you are at, from what I see.
> 
> Because I asked for photos, I guess I better supply some, eh?


I usually sketch out my ideas on paper , I have dozens of sketches of crap I haven't built yet.

As with many of my projects , I   knew what this was going to look like before I started.

What motivated me to get started on this project is Princess auto just happened to have casters n' wheels on sale .


ShawnR said:


>


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## SomeGuy (Feb 18, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> @Gearhead88 do you have a plan or are you winging it? I started on mine. Been going through my stock to see what I have and designing around it, while using this thread and Google images for ideas. I don't have firm plan but do have a general idea. Found some large wheels I did not recall owning. Have the base framed so similar to where you are at, from what I see.
> 
> Because I asked for photos, I guess I better supply some, eh?



Is there a middle ground of, I build it entirely in my head before I go and build but don't produce physical plans?


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 19, 2022)

At work I make detailed CAD models of everything I build.  Mostly large assemblies, everything detailed, every screw and dowel location etc.  At home I grab a tape measure and start digging through the scrap pile lol.  I don't even make sketches.  I'm like 2 completely different people sometimes.  I enjoy both processes and workflows.  Although I enjoy the creative process at home a bit more.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 19, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> At work I make detailed CAD models of everything I build.  Mostly large assemblies, everything detailed, every screw and dowel location etc.  At home I grab a tape measure and start digging through the scrap pile lol.  I don't even make sketches.  I'm like 2 completely different people sometimes.  I enjoy both processes and workflows.  Although I enjoy the creative process at home a bit more.



 I have several piles of short pieces ( I don't call em scrap) that are kept in 5 gallon buckets , for use on whatever project comes up , combine that with a creative mind and the ability to envision stuff that I haven't built yet , maybe a sketch , maybe not .

Sometimes I google pictures of an item I want to create , some times I reverse engineer an existing item , if I'm lucky enough to have one to examine.


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## Redneck_Sophistication (Feb 19, 2022)

Well I’ll throw mine in although it’s not done.

Duel rebels a 215 abs my new 205 ac/dc. The 215 for the alum spoolgun and 205 for tig and mig 

1/4”
Plate bottom, pneumatic casters to roll over cables and such, base will be a drawer and cabinet, clad in aluminum sheet painted yellow and everything else black to match the welders and keep the dust out. Triple tank holder at the back. 

Top rack for storage since everything collects there anyways.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 19, 2022)

Todays progress , more to do yet


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 19, 2022)




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## ShawnR (Feb 19, 2022)

Now that is a busy shop!! Nice!

Cart progress looks great!


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 20, 2022)

Got a bit more done today , cut some more small pieces , bent up some hooks for cables , cut some tubes for filler rod storage , drilled & tapped holes for the swiveling casters , cut some channel for the wheel spindles .






I still need some more flat bar to tie the uprights together .

I ran out of Blue shield gas , welding isn't happening till I deal with my gas issues.

My lease is due on the mig gas and I need a cylinder of Argon .................. I am thinking of buying cylinders outright.

 Thoughts on the lease vs own the bottles ??


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## ShawnR (Feb 20, 2022)

I don't know if the price of bottles varies area to area but here, the small bottles are $250, each, full. That is the 45 cuft ones. A lease is about $100/bottle /year. To fill an 80 cuft leased is about the same cost to fill a 45 owned, iiuc. So it depends on how long the bottle lasts you. I do own an 80 cuft Argon  bottle. Some grandfather thing when I bought my welder from an estate but all my others ones are 45. I am considering leasing a larger bottle for the new welder as I thought I might use it more. It seemed to go down fast on my old welder but doing the math on flow rates, the 80 should last for roughly 4 hours of welding, probably less. You can lease larger bottles too, which, should be more cost effective, but again, paying a lease on a bottle cloud be costly if it just sits. My MIG bottle is probably more than a year old. I picked up 3 80 cuft argons in the last year. 
I stick weld when possible to save gas but witj the new tig welder, I chock costs up to education


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## Six O Two (Feb 20, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Thoughts on the lease vs own the bottles ??



When I lived in Calgary, I bought a bottle from KMS after having leased for a few years. That first bottle had bad argon in it though, and it messed up my welds for a while until I managed to track down the issue. Then I moved to the Kootenays, and none of my local shops will fill a 3rd party bottle (nearest KMS location is 5 hours away), so now I'm back to leasing... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Degen (Feb 21, 2022)

I bought a bottle and its basically an exchange when when you get it filled,  its the next size up from an 80.

First fill was within 6 months, used a lot of gas learning (part if it is gas setup), welded a lot more on the new fill and use a lot less.


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## ShawnR (Feb 21, 2022)

Degen said:


> I bought a bottle and its basically an exchange when when you get it filled,  its the next size up from an 80.
> 
> First fill was within 6 months, used a lot of gas learning (part if it is gas setup), welded a lot more on the new fill and use a lot less.



What province are you in? Who regulates what bottles one can own? I wonder if this is a local policy, provincial, federal or supplier policies.... Air Liquide will only sell the 40/45 cuft bottles. Praxair is who sold the original 80 ft bottle that I now own (they don't sell them anymore) but if you own the larger one yet, that would be a good size to own for a homeowner. The guy who bought my welder was talking about bottles. He said he did not want to lease cause it cost too much as a friend of his just returned his and "had $1400 into it" I asked how and turns out he had it for 14 years and never used a full bottle, sooooo, one has to be realistic about their uses, which change year to year, project to project for most, I think. Praxair will also rent a bottle for a short term. I don't know how cost effective that is but if one had a large project for a short term, that might be. IIRC, it was reasonable.


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## ShawnR (Feb 21, 2022)

Back to carts for a minute, I think mine is shaping up to be more in design like @Redneck_Sophistication 's but keeps changing slightly as I progress (or digress). I decided to incorporate the old cart into it for shelving/lower cabinet. I am liking the idea of the top shelf. Mine will be stacked vertical but the side by side is nice too. 

Will see if I can get enough progress today worthy of photos.


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## Darren (Feb 21, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> I think. Praxair will also rent a bottle for a short term. I don't know how cost effective that is but if one had a large project for a short term, that might be. IIRC, it was reasonable.


 Back when Ron was running Praxair, if I was doing a big job and thought i'd run out, he'd toss me an extra bottle and i'd just pay for the gas, and bring the next empty back and we'd be square again. They don't do that sort of thing anymore. Mark a Liquid Air is great to deal with though...


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 21, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> What province are you in? Who regulates what bottles one can own? I wonder if this is a local policy, provincial, federal or supplier policies.... Air Liquide will only sell the 40/45 cuft bottles. Praxair is who sold the original 80 ft bottle that I now own (they don't sell them anymore) but if you own the larger one yet, that would be a good size to own for a homeowner. The guy who bought my welder was talking about bottles. He said he did not want to lease cause it cost too much as a friend of his just returned his and "had $1400 into it" I asked how and turns out he had it for 14 years and never used a full bottle, sooooo, one has to be realistic about their uses, which change year to year, project to project for most, I think. Praxair will also rent a bottle for a short term. I don't know how cost effective that is but if one had a large project for a short term, that might be. IIRC, it was reasonable.


I've been a loyal Air Liquide customer , for many years . I have on lease right now , an Allmig size 16 ,  oxygen & acetylene cylinders .

My lease has been for a very long time , I used to weld a lot more but  I think , I've gotten a raw deal ,  due to how little welding I've done over the length of time I've had the lease.

 I go for months without welding , now that I'm semi retired I'm likely to be welding more , I have projects .

I need to bring home an Argon cylinder .

I'd like to own the cylinders , going forward .


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## Chicken lights (Feb 21, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Back when Ron was running Praxair, if I was doing a big job and thought i'd run out, he'd toss me an extra bottle and i'd just pay for the gas, and bring the next empty back and we'd be square again. They don't do that sort of thing anymore. Mark a Liquid Air is great to deal with though...


Praxair used to be awesome. If I couldn’t make it before closing time it would be on the back dock for “after hours” service. One of the managers actually drove to my house once to drop off a refund. Now whoever is running it took almost 6 months to order in a gauge for my torches and it was still wrong. 
Used to be $50-60 a year to lease a K size oxygen tank. Then it bumped to $80. Then environmental fees. Then $100. Then they tried charging me for 10 bottles. Then they refunded me the overage but then billed me interest on the 10 bottles. All in the last couple years. Sad to part ways with a company after a dozen years but that’s how she goes. I’ll be in the same boat as you guys once my last K size cylinder runs out. 

Didn’t someone on here mention getting tanks filled at a scuba place?


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## Degen (Feb 21, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> What province are you in? Who regulates what bottles one can own? I wonder if this is a local policy, provincial, federal or supplier policies.... Air Liquide will only sell the 40/45 cuft bottles. Praxair is who sold the original 80 ft bottle that I now own (they don't sell them anymore) but if you own the larger one yet, that would be a good size to own for a homeowner. The guy who bought my welder was talking about bottles. He said he did not want to lease cause it cost too much as a friend of his just returned his and "had $1400 into it" I asked how and turns out he had it for 14 years and never used a full bottle, sooooo, one has to be realistic about their uses, which change year to year, project to project for most, I think. Praxair will also rent a bottle for a short term. I don't know how cost effective that is but if one had a large project for a short term, that might be. IIRC, it was reasonable.


Ontario.

Yes it is a purchase, but....its more like a long term lease, basically no yearly rental but I walk in and replace the cylinder with a filled one and pay the filling fee.

As to legal stuff, not sure if this is the case or a scam set up in Canada.  I suspect it a way of keeping the tanks tested and certified

I have Scuba tanks that I own, and need to be tested and certified every so often, but even there one is a true test, the other by the scuba shops for more money (don't ask how I found this out).  Funny thing my Argon tank has about 1200-1300psi, my steel 100cf new allows for over 3000psi (significantly more dangerous) and NITROX at that.

I must say Canada is definitely a Nanni state.

Forgot to mention as far as I know there are only 2 major gas suppliers in the Canada, everything else is just a sub set of them.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 21, 2022)

Degen said:


> I must say Canada is definitely a Nanni state.


True for some stuff, not others though.  You jump through hoops to get bottles and stuff like that but you can haul them to get refilled on the jankiest homebuilt trailer, welded with a 120v fluxcore, that doesn't need to be inspected lol.  

I own my 80cf bottles (praxair) from TSC/peaveymart in ontario.  I have one store about 20 minutes from home (bowmanville), and another around the corner from work (peterborough).  Both recent times neither store had an argon in stock when I needed it, so I had to drive 40 minutes to a different store (lindsay)  I'd like to step up to a bigger mig mix bottle, but will cross that bridge when I come to it.  We have air liquid service at work, and I'll probably go that route with leased bottles when the time comes.  But I'll keep my owned bottles for backups.

Keep an eye on Kijiji/market place for bottles for sale that can be exchanged at TSC.  Actually don't bother....nevermind I said that.....It probably wont work anyway.....


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## David_R8 (Feb 21, 2022)

Hmm my local KMS sells bottles and refills same. Actually my experience has been that they just exchange them to save you time as they need to cool/settle/rest and recuperate after filling before they can be taken home.


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## ShawnR (Feb 21, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Back when Ron was running Praxair, if I was doing a big job and thought i'd run out, he'd toss me an extra bottle and i'd just pay for the gas, and bring the next empty back and we'd be square again. They don't do that sort of thing anymore. Mark a Liquid Air is great to deal with though...


I remember Ron. He was good to deal with, but, back then, I was not overly active. And yes, I deal with Mark all the time now. He is awesome but AirLiquide will not fill (technically, exchange) my Argon as it is a Praxair thing to allow the 80's so Praxair for Argon but 40 cuft bottles at AirLiquide. The guys at Praxair here seem good to deal with, so far too so all good.


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## Degen (Feb 21, 2022)

Must say I'm lucky have least 2 sources within 10 minutes from house and both stock, one is a major supplier (which is how I found out how these buyouts have happened over the last couple of years.


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## Tom O (Feb 21, 2022)

I have the 80cf bottle for the welder that I bought at Liquid Air and just exchange it for another with no problem the smaller Oxy Accetaline bottles I got at KMS I haven’t filled yet.


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## PeterT (Feb 21, 2022)

Give OxyPro a call just for comparison. No actual $ experience but when I was tire kicking, it was a one time 'lease' if that's the right word, filled tank, then X $/refill after that. It's never your tank, you're just recycling from their pool I think, so I don't know if it perpetuates indefinitely or 10 years or...? I don't want to guess at my bad memory but I seem to recall like 280$ for first tank (filled), then 85$ per fill.. whatever gas we were chatting at the time. Be interested to know how this compares to other Calgary vendors. They had a selection of sizes.


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## 6.5 Fan (Feb 22, 2022)

The only tanks Air Liquide would sell me are the small tanks, exchange for a full oner when needed. The little oxy tanks suck on my oxy/propane cutting outfit, don't last very long if your cutting. The dealer here also farms and says he has 2 of these little tanks because they run out to fast when doing an extended job.


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## Mcgyver (Feb 24, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Thoughts on the lease vs own the bottles ??



 Better to own if you can imo. Here, you can only own the small bottles.  More of a pain having to take the odd extra trip, but better than leasing.

if you do lease, make sure you read every line of the lease contract.  Some are rather unfair imo.  Given the litigious nature of some of the players I'm reluctant to name names.  I spend a lot on welding gas per month, and some of these firms, well, they're not nice people...so study the contract.


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## Dabbler (Feb 24, 2022)

I have a story about own/lease

I have always owned my bottles, I only need gas every 5 years or so.  When Air Liquide closed in Calgary years ago, Linde bought their old phone number and lied about acuiring their Alberta business.  They got me to turn in my old bigger bottle for a smaller Linde one for an exorbitant price on a Friday afternoon, when I was over a barrel.  I will NEVER do business with Linde again, -- even if means driving to Red Deer or Lethridge to avoid it.  I am cautiously avoiding using profane language in this regard.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 24, 2022)

Originally I went with Air Liquide for my personal /  home shop welding supplies because I was used to dealing with them on commercial accounts , they were close by ( Barlow trail ) and they were open Saturday . The convenience of being open Saturdays and using the close by location no longer applies , they've closed that branch .


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## Susquatch (Feb 24, 2022)

Most of my neighbours have had bad experiences with gas and gas bottles. I'm not thrilled either. I really don't use that much of anything.

My worst experience which I have NEVER forgotten, was the purchase of an oxy/acet kit with bottles, torches, and a cart about 30 years ago. Wanted the bottles filled. NFW, had to give them my brand new gorgeous bottles in exchange for two crappy rusty old bottles. Bailed on that and went down the street. Same story but slightly better bottles so I folded.

Still pissed today.


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## PeterT (Feb 24, 2022)

FWIW here are my OxyPro Calgary recent phone call notes.
50CF argon, $299 (initial rental, filled first time), $59/refill thereafter. He said (paraphrasing) tanks are typically 10 years cert but doesn't really matter because you typically just get handed a filled one from pool, so I don't think 10 years means anything related to initial purchase. Maybe he was referring to a self-owned tank, not sure. I didn't ask for sample paperwork /lease agreement but that's a great suggestion. 80CF was something like $300-ish & $110 refill, but I cant read my own scribbles.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> 80CF was something like $300-ish & $110 refill, but I cant read my own scribbles.


That's inline with what I pay at TSC/peaveymart here in Ontario for owned bottles in an exchange (praxair).  You can catch the odd bottle sale, and fill/exchange sale (-15-20%) at the store, but it never aligns with when I'm empty lol.  I've got all 3 of my bottles cheaper though.  One from the store on sale, one with a Mig purchase, and another off marketplace for $20, but it's only a 40cf.  If you pay attention to marketplace/kijiji you can sometimes find praxair bottles that they will exchange for tsc branded ones for around $100-150.  I've bought another one before but gave it to a friend starting out a couple years ago.  Been too late for a couple other deals too.  Gas type doesn't matter, you can exchange any gas for the same size bottle.


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## Tom O (Feb 24, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Originally I went with Air liquide for my personal /  home shop welding supplies because I was used to dealing with them with commercial accounts , they were close by ( Barlow trail ) and they were open Saturday . The convienience of being open saturdays and using the close by location no longer applies , they've closed that branch .


They are across the road from the Road King Truck Stop about 5 minutes away from me.


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## Tom O (Feb 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Most of my neighbours have had bad experiences with gas and gas bottles. I'm not thrilled either. I really don't use that much of anything.
> 
> My worst experience which I have NEVER forgotten, was the purchase of an oxy/acet kit with bottles, torches, and a cart about 30 years ago. Wanted the bottles filled. NFW, had to give them my brand new gorgeous bottles in exchange for two crappy rusty old bottles. Bailed on that and went down the street. Same story but slightly better bottles so I folded.
> 
> Still pissed today.


Still exchanging them like that you never have to get your bottles tested that falls on them.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 24, 2022)

Tom O said:


> They are across the road from the Road King Truck Stop about 5 minutes away from me.


That's where I've been going since the North  Barlow trail store closed .

I’m going there tomorrow , we’ll see how it plays out.

I should come up with an alternate plan , in case I need to sever my relationship with Air Liquide , Oxy pro has been recommended as a possible substitute .


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## ShawnR (Feb 24, 2022)

The cart is coming along, slowly...

I reconfigured the metal from the original cart to be used as shelves. That meant filling the hole in for the tank in the old cart. Since I have a new TIG welder, and need a lot of practice, I went for it. Turned out OK, for me. The bottom section will be a drawer for the accessories. Tomorrow, I am hoping for TIG rod rack and cable hooks. It will be getting close to paint by then. The big Oooops for this project.....while shortening the top shelf, and over thinking it 20 times, I managed to go out and "just get it done"....now it is about an inch too short!!  Not a big deal as I can make it work but just when I figured I had it all figured out....Oh well.


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## Degen (Feb 24, 2022)

Unfortunately filling acet. is extremely dangerous, and they do it extremely far way from any housing or population.  If you think propane is dangerous this is even worse (just remember the 2008 Downsview incident in Toronto and that was only propane).






BTW Messer Gas is now the biggest supplier in Canada (both Linde and Paxair got bought by them).


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 24, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Still exchanging them like that you never have to get your bottles tested that falls on them.


I’ve been dealing with oxypro off Barlow …..  I’m neutral.  I own all my cylinders and when u exchanged I got the old , hmmmm, we’ll, geeez,  these are 11 year old bottles…..  I said but I always exchange here and ended up having to pair the certification fee etc.  i can never get a good feeling with these guys…. I go there because it is convienient.  


I don’t mind Kms but the last refill I had they didn’t cool the cylinder imho and the fill was about 80%.  I did lease from praxaor for a few years but I don’t weld enough to justify it.

I guess I am generally untrustful of all these guys in Calgary …. I never come away feeling like the customer


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 25, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> I’ve been dealing with oxypro off Barlow …..  I’m neutral.  I own all my cylinders and when u exchanged I got the old , hmmmm, we’ll, geeez,  these are 11 year old bottles…..  I said but I always exchange here and ended up having to pair the certification fee etc.  i can never get a good feeling with these guys…. I go there because it is convienient.
> 
> 
> I don’t mind Kms but the last refill I had they didn’t cool the cylinder imho and the fill was about 80%.  I did lease from praxaor for a few years but I don’t weld enough to justify it.
> ...


Something that never sits well with me is , fees added on , lots of companies do it whether they are providing a service or selling a product , often it's just a fee for the sake of milking us for every  last possible cent .

Convenience fee
Admin fee
Added value fee
Paper billing fee
Cylinder tracking fee
Service charge
Green fee
and there are many , many  more cleverly concieved ways to separate the consumer from his money.


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## Dan Dubeau (Feb 25, 2022)

Bell used to have a $2 touch tone fee for land lines, and I can remember my wife arguing with the guy on the phone trying to get it removed because we had a rotary, and didn't need it lol.  He was saying "that's impossible, those don't work anymore" and she was replying "I'm talking to you right now from a rotary dial phone" lol.  Still makes me laugh.  We still have the phone, but dropped land line service shortly after that call.  Ad on fees drive me nuts.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 25, 2022)

To follow up on my lease a bottle discussion ..............

I went to Air Liquide today.
I turned in an empty Mig gas cylinder  , told them I no longer want a lease.
Because I wanted to buy two cylinders I got a small break on the price ( I think)
I now own a Mig gas cylinder and an Argon cylinder , no more annual lease payments., no surprise here , there were "fee's" , just enough to make the deal , a bit raw.

The down side is , you are limited on the size of the cylinder you may own , I would have liked to upsize the cylinders I had so re-fill intervals are longer  , it wasn't an option.
The Mig gas cylinder I brought home is the same size as what I had , the Argon cylinder is the same size too. The cubic volume is close to the same but the pressure is lower (confused ?  ).
It will take a few years to see a savings due to what they charge to own a cylinder , in the long term , it makes more sense to own  as has been pointed out by a few participants in this conversation.
It's $90 to fill these cylinders and is done as an exchange , so me having to pick up the tab to re-cert the cylinders is not gonna happen , they take care of it.

Overall my wallet is lighter but I'm happy I did it , very soon I can light up my new to me Tig machine .

I should have done this a long time ago 

On Monday , I'm turning in my leased Oxy/ Acetylene cylinders , the lease is up , I've had them for a long time but I very rarely use them and there are other methods for heating or cutting .

I will be selling my cutting/ welding torches , regulators (Uniweld) , hoses and cart that I bought from Air Liquide .


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## Tom O (Feb 25, 2022)

Glad it worked out for you it’s been a year since I had my bottles filled but sounds like the same price. I‘ve always been treated good there mind you we have known Andrew since he use to chum with Adrian for a number of years. And if you get stuck I have Oxy/ acc you can use.


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## ShawnR (Feb 26, 2022)

This week, I happened to fill two different bottles. The Argon is the 80 cuft bottle that I own, the grandfather thing I mentioned earlier. Cannot buy them anymore but praxair honours them. It cost $130 after all fees and taxes. I then filled my Mig gas 40 cuft bottle (by fill, I mean exchange of course) and it cost $90.


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## 6.5 Fan (Feb 26, 2022)

I just found a bill for oxy tank it was $65 with tax for an exchange tank i own. These little suckers don't last very long if your cutting steel. This was Air Liquide.


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## PeterT (Feb 26, 2022)

How are tanks identified as to when they need to be re-certified, like a stamp or engraving or something? Is this what the gas filler-uppers confirm? If compliant, ok fill - if not, no fill? Or is there more to it than that?


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## ShawnR (Feb 26, 2022)

Soooooo...back to welding carts....

Have the cable hooks done. Moving onto the Filler rack next. I will be going with the tank straps like @David_R8


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## boilerhouse (Feb 26, 2022)

PeterT said:


> How are tanks identified as to when they need to be re-certified, like a stamp or engraving or something? Is this what the gas filler-uppers confirm? If compliant, ok fill - if not, no fill? Or is there more to it than that?


I bought my tanks 20 years ago, from BOC gas now Linde, new and filled, with tax were $330.  Last time I exchanged them around 2018, acetylene with all charges was $110, and oxygen was $60. Of course, I don't own the tank per say, I own a lifetime right to an exchange.  
I checked my tanks, and there are dates stamped into the cylinders, so I imagine whoever fills these things would be required to send any 'out of date' cylinders off for an inspection and likely hydrostatic testing.    
I also checked 20 years worth of receipts to see the volume of the cylinders, and all that was marked was oxygen C and acetylene WB.  OK, no problem, I googled that info- and came up with nothing.  So the bottom line is, the Gas companies love people like me; I don't know what I have, I don't know what I am getting, but I am happy to pay for it.


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## ShawnR (Feb 27, 2022)

Completed the tanks strap mounting and the rod storage is almost done. I need to space the top rack out before securing it. To make the rod storage shelves, I cut a groove in a 4" wide piece, then bent it over to 90. Gave me the exact dimension angle I wanted while remaining kinda straight... Also got to weld up the outside corner with the TIG so good practice for me.


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## Susquatch (Feb 27, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Soooooo...back to welding carts....



Are you under the silly mistaken impression that this thread is about welding carts? 

Oh ya, and I guess I should add..... That's one kick ass cart! I love it!


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## ShawnR (Feb 27, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Are you under the silly mistaken impression that this thread is about welding carts?
> 
> Oh ya, and I guess I should add..... That's one kick ass cart! I love it!



lol...yea, a bit of a diversion but all good info. 

Thanks!


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 27, 2022)

More progress on my cart build .


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 3, 2022)

Ready to use


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## Dabbler (Mar 3, 2022)

very nice work!


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## Tom O (Mar 3, 2022)

Nice


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## Chicken lights (Mar 3, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> View attachment 21598View attachment 21599Ready to use


Nice snap on box! That’s not a new girl


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 3, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Nice snap on box! That’s not a new girl


I bought it new in 1991


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 3, 2022)

Unknown to me until today ....... the Tig torch that was included with this machine is not compatible .

What I need is  a dinse 35-70 cable that has a flow through gas feature , the machine originally had a cable like this without a separate gas hose , there is a separate gas hose with the torch I got .

Damn !! more spending !

A search of Miller & Air Liquide websites came up blank , this machine is probably close to 20 years old.

I did find one that will work , on ebay , and on Amazon.






The connection is not threaded , it's a insert & twist , sealed with an O ring


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## Everett (Mar 3, 2022)

Nice cart Jeff, the paint really makes it pop!

I guess I should share mine, now that the disaster and general entropy in the shop is becoming less disastrous and entropic . . . This was the first thing I welded when I got the TIG 200.  I didn't have space for a separate welding cart and welding bench in my old shop (don't really have the space for separate ones here either, really) so made a welding bench that held the machine and had a table.  The table top came out of a scrap bin, the square tube and angle were leftovers from a previous project when I had my acreage, and the wheels were off a scrapped pressure washer.  The chain is held secure to the table by two wide-headed cap screws that were formerly Dodge 8HP45 transmission pan bolts as they're perfect to keep the chain on and were free, lol.

I never did paint it.  Now that I have a few more welding supplies, once I track down some cheap angle iron I'll add another shelf under the welder.  Sadly, haven't used it much in the last year but hopefully can get some seat time in the near future with a couple things I want to make.










The machine itself sits on an OSB shelf, so there shouldn't be any transient grounding issues.  Seems to have worked well for me so far.


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## ShawnR (Mar 4, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Ready to use



Nicely done! You and I are on different paths apparently. I sold the 180 and bought a smaller one so as to combine them into one cart. I see you bought the 180 and built it into a second cart ...

My 180 came on wheels but had no place to hang cables other than around the handle. And rod storage was hoaky due to me not taking the time to make it nice instead of just usable. Your system turned looks great! Enjoy.

I am planning on painting mine today so hopefully get some pictures up by the end of the weekend.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 4, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> Nicely done! You and I are on different paths apparently. I sold the 180 and bought a smaller one so as to combine them into one cart. I see you bought the 180 and built it into a second cart ...
> 
> My 180 came on wheels but had no place to hang cables other than around the handle. And rod storage was hoaky due to me not taking the time to make it nice instead of just usable. Your system turned looks great! Enjoy.
> 
> I am planning on painting mine today so hopefully get some pictures up by the end of the weekend.


I included lots of places to hang stuff , if it ever gets stolen , it would be perfect for the hobo's with shopping carts we see wandering around , to hang all their stuff


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## ShawnR (Mar 5, 2022)

So with all the discussions on new areas to post threads in, I thought I might update this one. 

Got the rod storage rack done. I am going to have a short tube for those half rods that get accumulated (or am I the only one that saves them?)  I also removed those wooden spacer blocks in the base and inserted some bushings (1/2" pipe) to prevent the tubing from being crushed when I over tighten the caster bolts. (which I did already, which told me I need to have something in the tube) It gave me an opportunity to play with the new tig unit. Does anyone else feel like they are going on a date when setting up to TIG? Geez, get the stool in the right place, set the foot pedal, wrap the cable somehow so that it does not affect the awesome roll of dimes I am about to lay down, realize no place to rest the hand on so unwrap the cable shawl and find a clamp. Where is the filler rod? Ok, go, dip the tungsten, crap! unwrap, go grind the tungsten,  regroup, repeat.....I should just use JB Weld....

But, now, having ranted, I tigged in the cover plates where the wood blocks were before. Nice little project. Played with the pulse function. I think it will be good to learn to use. Also, ditched the foot pedal and used the torch switch in 4T mode. That is sweet! So, for those following the cart thread but really wondering how the new Everlast Tig unit is, loving it so far. 

The first coat of cover today was a coat of the new Tremclad low VOC water based primer. Can't say I am a fan. It is, well, like latex paint. The directions say do not thin but no way my HVLP was drawing that crud through the nozzle so I thinned it. I had a mask on but still, gotta admit, no fumes is nice. And it went on ok, and ready for next coat in 1 to 3 hours. That is a nice feature of the water based stuff. I love it for cabinets.  Next coat was the old oil based Tremclad, a staple in my shop, and it went on nice. This is the first coat. 2nd coat tomorrow and put it all together and call it done.

Every time I paint something, I tell myself I should set up tarps to keep the over spray down. Finally did that, but, don't worry, I won't start a thread in Daily Shop Improvements about the hanging of the tarps ordeal. But it really was a shop improvement, and not much of an ordeal.

lol

Cheers, 
Shawn


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Nice work Shawn


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## ShawnR (Mar 5, 2022)

I just realized if I don't get around to fixing that old Evinrude and getting it out of my shop soon, people will realize, from posted photos, how long I will trip over something instead of just getting the job done....


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## ShawnR (Mar 8, 2022)

Loaded and ready to go. Need to build the drawer yet for the bottom. There was room behind the Lincoln for storing the gas cylinder caps. A piece of  plastic drain pipe secured with a piece of all thread.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 8, 2022)

Looks good !


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 9, 2022)

Nice cart.


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## DHHok (Mar 12, 2022)

Well, I'll throw my (under construction) cart in here.
Not nearly as nice as others on here, but I "upgraded" an old shopping cart.   
Now before any one says it.........no, I did not steal it.    I came across it legally at the metal recyclers.  Had a broken frame and was dripping in grease.  Don't know where it came from, but it took two full cans of brake cleaner to degrease it.
I've been waiting for the KMS tank sale to get a couple decent size tanks, but now I needed a cart to move them around.
It's surprisingly sturdy.  I only needed to upgrade the wheels because I was putting all my welders on one cart, (except the oxy/act) and those tanks are heavy.
I still have to add the hooks, rod holders, and a cradle for the tanks.  I'm also going to put receptacles on the cart for the welders, and run a single cord to the outlet.  That way I don't need to unplug/plug, when I change welders.  

I've had that cheap arc welder for decades and has served me well.  I only bought the TIG less than a year ago and use it way more than I thought.  Love being able to weld aluminum.  Never TIG'd before, so I don't have any comparison, but it's a good machine for me.  The MIG, I haven't even used yet.  It was a KMS new, open box return for $200, so I couldn't resist.


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## GlenG (Mar 13, 2022)

Here is the one I built a couple of years ago, it’s all full up now of course.


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## Janger (Mar 14, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> I’ve been dealing with oxypro off Barlow …..  I’m neutral.  I own all my cylinders and when u exchanged I got the old , hmmmm, we’ll, geeez,  these are 11 year old bottles…..  I said but I always exchange here and ended up having to pair the certification fee etc.  i can never get a good feeling with these guys…. I go there because it is convienient.
> 
> 
> I don’t mind Kms but the last refill I had they didn’t cool the cylinder imho and the fill was about 80%.  I did lease from praxaor for a few years but I don’t weld enough to justify it.
> ...


Trouble with KMS is they have a manifold of bottles for filling - no compressor - so the pressure you get is the average of the manifold. yup they are not as full. BUT I am customer not a mark when I go there and I know the deal without BS. I have a great idea for the forum - let's buy/make a cylinder filling station. co-op type arrangement.


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## DHHok (Mar 14, 2022)

Added a couple hooks, rod holders and paint.   I also took the drawer from my roller seat, (which would never stay put) and installed it under the  top shelf for consumables.  Just need to add the receptacles for the welders, but for the most part, it's done.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 14, 2022)

DHHok said:


> Added a couple hooks, rod holders and paint.   I also took the drawer from my roller seat, (which would never stay put) and installed it under the  top shelf for consumables.  Just need to add the receptacles for the welders, but for the most part, it's done.


I like it ,  a lot packed into a small package


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## Janger (Mar 14, 2022)

And if I buy a bottle from KMS for $300. it's good for 10 years - that's $30 a year instead of $100/year or whatever a 'lease' costs.


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## Chicken lights (Mar 14, 2022)

Janger said:


> And if I buy a bottle from KMS for $300. it's good for 10 years - that's $30 a year instead of $100/year or whatever a 'lease' costs.


I forget what a recert cost me, $100? Included a new valve and fresh paint. That was 4-5 years ago on a small propane tank, paid $5 for it at a scrap yard 

I like the co-op idea, I’d be curious how insurance will view this idea. I’m not sure how gas delivery trucks would deliver to a private site? 

Also if it’s a co-op who’s to say tanks need recert? If at new they were good for 1500 psi then as they age only fill 800 psi, type of thing 

You’d almost need one certified (or a couple) member to do the filling, unless you could run a course to train everyone 

Great idea, I can see some speed bumps


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 14, 2022)

Janger said:


> And if I buy a bottle from KMS for $300. it's good for 10 years - that's $30 a year instead of $100/year or whatever a 'lease' costs.


My lease for a mig gas cylinder was $120 / year at Air Liquide . 
Last month my lease was up for renewal , I chose to purchase instead , that transaction breaks down like this ...... the use of a cylinder is  a one time fee and is  for as long as you need it =  $330 , including gas , refills are $90  , they will provide another cylinder at the time you are getting a fresh refill . I'm not sure if you can pre arrange to keep the same cylinder or not . 
They take care of recert's on the cylinders , there are no additional charges. 

I signed up for a Mig cylinder and an Argon cylinder .
My Oxy / Acetylene cylinders are now due , I need to decide if I will be keeping them or turning them back in .


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## Chicken lights (Mar 14, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> My lease for a mig gas cylinder was $120 / year at Air Liquide .
> Last month my lease was up for renewal , I chose to purchase instead , that transaction breaks down like this ...... the use of a cylinder is  a one time fee and is  for as long as you need it =  $330 , including gas , refills are $90  , they will provide another cylinder at the time you are getting a fresh refill . I'm not sure if you can pre arrange to keep the same cylinder or not .
> They take care of recert's on the cylinders , there are no additional charges.
> 
> ...


Oxy / propane is way cheaper to run, if you don’t do any brazing. Plus propane you can get anywhere even on weekends


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## PeterT (Mar 14, 2022)

I posted this recently. The prices were a bit higher from when I called over a year ago. Did I misunderstand or is there fine print I wonder? 
(299-59)=240 cylinder 'rent'. I thought he said 10 years so that's 24 $/year equivalent.

_FWIW here are my OxyPro Calgary recent phone call notes.
50CF argon, $299 (initial rental, filled first time), $59/refill thereafter. He said (paraphrasing) tanks are typically 10 years cert but doesn't really matter because you typically just get handed a filled one from pool, so I don't think 10 years means anything related to initial purchase. Maybe he was referring to a self-owned tank, not sure. I didn't ask for sample paperwork /lease agreement but that's a great suggestion. 80CF was something like $300-ish & $110 refill, but I cant read my own scribbles._


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## DHHok (Mar 14, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I posted this recently. The prices were a bit higher from when I called over a year ago. Did I misunderstand or is there fine print I wonder?
> (299-59)=240 cylinder 'rent'. I thought he said 10 years so that's 24 $/year equivalent.
> 
> _FWIW here are my OxyPro Calgary recent phone call notes.
> 50CF argon, $299 (initial rental, filled first time), $59/refill thereafter. He said (paraphrasing) tanks are typically 10 years cert but doesn't really matter because you typically just get handed a filled one from pool, so I don't think 10 years means anything related to initial purchase. Maybe he was referring to a self-owned tank, not sure. I didn't ask for sample paperwork /lease agreement but that's a great suggestion. 80CF was something like $300-ish & $110 refill, but I cant read my own scribbles._


I waited for the KMS once/yr tank sale.  I didn't want to have to fill my tanks very often so I went with the 250cuft for $400 + $120 for the fill.
Your $110 refill for 80cf sounds high, considering I filled a 250 for $120.


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## DHHok (Mar 14, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Oxy / propane is way cheaper to run, if you don’t do any brazing. Plus propane you can get anywhere even on weekends


I've never tried that combo.  Is the heat similar?  I rarely use my gas anymore, except for heating metal to bend it.


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## Chicken lights (Mar 14, 2022)

DHHok said:


> I've never tried that combo.  Is the heat similar?  I rarely use my gas anymore, except for heating metal to bend it.


It’s slightly less heat, and there are no brazing tips for that combo 

Last I checked it was +$90 to fill an acetylene tank, propane was ~$20-25 and more volume


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## PeterT (Mar 14, 2022)

DHHok said:


> I waited for the KMS once/yr tank sale.  I didn't want to have to fill my tanks very often so I went with the 250cuft for $400 + $120 for the fill.
> Your $110 refill for 80cf sounds high, considering I filled a 250 for $120.


I might have the $110 incorrect. But 59$/50CF works out to =1.18 $CF. So 1.18 * 80CF = 94$ ... not to far off 110$. Maybe was tax in, I cant recall.
But yes, your KMS price sounds better though: 120$/250CF=0.48 $/CF, less than half


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## PeterT (Mar 14, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Oxy / propane is way cheaper to run, if you don’t do any brazing. Plus propane you can get anywhere even on weekends


I thought people did brazing & silver soldering (meaning silver brazing) quite often with propane/oxygen. Did you mean if they don't do any welding maybe? 
Well, maybe I'm looking at smaller scale stuff, models & bike frame tubing stuff. I don't have a torch set, I'm to busy wringing my hands with analysis paralysis LOL


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## Chicken lights (Mar 15, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I thought people did brazing & silver soldering (meaning silver brazing) quite often with propane/oxygen. Did you mean if they don't do any welding maybe?


As far as I know, there isn’t a brazing tip for oxy/propane. I looked into it a couple years ago, I was heating an 8 mm bolt in a tight spot with a cutting torch head, way overkill and not very delicate. I was told they can’t get me a oxy/propane brazing tip

Whats the difference between brazing and welding, referring to oxy/pro or oxy/acet rigs?


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## boilerhouse (Mar 15, 2022)

Last time I filled my acetylene tank, the gas supplier recommended I switch to propane "to save money".  I asked if it worked well, and he says oxy/propane is all they use in their own shops.  It is cheaper, and, using propane from a barbecue tank, it is very convenient to re-fill.   I did a bit of research and determined oxygen/propane would do everything oxygen/acetylene would do except weld, which is fine by me, I don't oxy/acetylene weld anyways.  However, I have not pulled the trigger on it yet.  This link gives a bit of info on some of the ins and outs of oxygen/acetylene vs oxy/propane.









						Gas Welding – Acetylene vs Propane - Wilhelmsen
					

Ever so often, the question of whether one can use Propane instead of Acetylene will pop up. Learn the difference between the two, and how to prevent accidents.




					www.wilhelmsen.com


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## SomeGuy (Mar 15, 2022)

You can braze with oxy-propane, you just "can't" weld. I say can't, because you certainly can melt the materials together but there will be a ton of contamination of the weld and it will probably be pretty brittle.

I won an ESAB Victor oxy-propane setup around a year ago, it's still sitting on the shelf and I haven't used it yet, but I do have propane and oxygen, so I should get around to taking it out and seeing what it can actually do.


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## PeterT (Mar 15, 2022)

some info (oops same link that @boilerhouse just posted)








						Gas Welding – Acetylene vs Propane - Wilhelmsen
					

Ever so often, the question of whether one can use Propane instead of Acetylene will pop up. Learn the difference between the two, and how to prevent accidents.




					www.wilhelmsen.com
				




There are quite  a few links about propane/oxygen brazing. Not just weekend warriors but also commercial. Like most things probably application & cost specific.





						Oxy-Propane Brazing Update 3 – Novice Frame Builder
					






					noviceframebuilder.co.uk


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## CalgaryPT (Mar 15, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> As far as I know, there isn’t a brazing tip for oxy/propane. I looked into it a couple years ago, I was heating an 8 mm bolt in a tight spot with a cutting torch head, way overkill and not very delicate. I was told they can’t get me a oxy/propane brazing tip
> 
> Whats the difference between brazing and welding, referring to oxy/pro or oxy/acet rigs?


In brazing the bond takes place at over 840 degrees F, with a different filler metal, and the base metal isn't melted (think soldering). In O/A there is more heat available so you can melt steel—specifically the (usually) thicker base you are trying to blend the attachment into. Thus, the base metal melts and, with the addition of rod, blends into the finished seam, becoming one and the same.

With brazing however the melted metal stays largely on the surface. There is a special kind of bonding that occurs at the microscopic level that is different than soldering though. That's why it is higher strength than soldering. I used to braze 4130 chromoly with bronze/brass all the time for recumbent bike frames I made for a buddy that assembled them. Below 840 degrees F it's called soldering.


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## CalgaryPT (Mar 15, 2022)

And just a P.S. about bronze brazing. It's a really cool artistic process if you are into that stuff. Because of how it bonds to steel you can do things like create divots in thick steel table legs, braze some bronze into them, sand them down, and you get a beautiful inlay that looks like flush rivets. Bronze buffs wonderfully and looks spectacular. I worked for a long time trying to perfect a process of CNC cutting designs into 16 gauge steel, then bronze brazing the gaps. Sadly, the warping proved too damaging. I could make it work with 3/16" plate, but no one wants a 200 lbs. piece of art hanging above their head behind a sofa.

A CNC mill can cut some shallow gullies into table legs that can be filled with bronze, and you end up with a nice Art Deco look. And for a really fun time—bronze brazing wire in a MIG is a hoot. One day I'm going to buy a smaller MIG just to leave that stuff ready to go at a moment's notice (I hate swapping out rollers and setups).

Sorry for applying the tiller to the thread. I love this stuff


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 15, 2022)

I got setup for Oxy/Propane last year (went through OxyPro in Calgary).  Basically bought an oxy/accet kit, then bought the propane hose/gauges/tips.  Kept the accetlyene gagues/hoses/tips as well in case I ever decide to use that.

Practiced cutting on an old forklift plow that was made of 1" plate.  cuts great -- I like it.  Uses more oxy than propane -- will be upgrading to larger bottle in the future.  

For what I'll use it for (heating/bending/cutting) I am quite content.


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## SomeGuy (Mar 15, 2022)

CalgaryPT said:


> In brazing the bond takes place at over 840 degrees F, with a different filler metal, and the base metal isn't melted (think soldering). In O/A there is more heat available so you can melt steel—specifically the (usually) thicker base you are trying to blend the attachment into. Thus, the base metal melts and, with the addition of rod, blends into the finished seam, becoming one and the same.
> 
> With brazing however the melted metal stays largely on the surface. There is a special kind of bonding that occurs at the microscopic level that is different than soldering though. That's why it is higher strength than soldering. I used to braze 4130 chromoly with bronze/brass all the time for recumbent bike frames I made for a buddy that assembled them. Below 840 degrees F it's called soldering.



Actually, there's more BTU's available in propane (especially important for heating operations, plus no worry about withdraw rates as there is with Acetylene), but OA burns hotter. The reason you can't weld is the chemical reaction of OP introduces contaminants into the weld where as OA acts like a shielding gas, nothing to do with temperature or ability to melt steel.


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## PeterT (Mar 15, 2022)

A lot of the model engineer types use Sievert torches for silver soldering/brazing. Its propane/air so you are only in it for the BBQ tank which is appealing. Maybe not quite as hot as propane/oxygen but satisfactory for these purposes. But the torches are kind of spendy by the time you add everything.


			» Products
		



			https://sievert.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sievert-Pro-86_ENG.pdf


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## Janger (Mar 15, 2022)

What about mapp gas and oxygen? My spouse uses that in her tiny jewelry torch. Will mapp gas with oxygen weld?


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## SomeGuy (Mar 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> What about mapp gas and oxygen? My spouse uses that in her tiny jewelry torch. Will mapp gas with oxygen weld?



Technically yes, but it still has more hydrogen in the molecules than acetylene so it will result in brittle welds. Just not as much as propane or propylene.

Propane - C3H8
Propylene - C3H6
MAPP - is a mix technically of a couple molecules, I think it's a couple forms of C3H4 roughly but don't quote me on that 
Acetylene - C2H2


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 16, 2022)

I use a oxy/prop torch, works great but unless you lease tanks all you can buy are the small oxy tanks. They don't last very long if your cutting steel as opposed to just heating stuff up.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Back when I was trying to make propane neet emissions levels in cars and light duty trucks, I got my nose bloody over the poor quality control. The trouble with propane isn't propane itself, it's all the other stuff in there - like butane, propylene, waxes, oils, and regular crud.

The price was attractive to consumers, energy density was reasonable for driving long distances, availability was relatively good nationwide, and the low storage pressures made on board fuel tanks reasonably feasible.

But there was no way on God's green earth that we could make emissions numbers anywhere nearly as good as we could with that liquid garbage we all call gasoline.

We even did liquid fuel injection with in-cylinder vapourization. Man did that stuff go like a bat out of hell! But the injectors plugged up with crud and we couldn't make them last.

The propane gas industry all loved to claim fantastic emissions performance, but an actual bag analysis didn't lie like the propane industry did. Poor quality Propane just couldn't make the numbers.

The government even tried to clean up the fuel. It didn't happen. The main market was heating and recreation. There was no incentive to make clean fuel for transportation.

Although I really don't know the answer for metal working, I'd be willing to bet that the lower adiabatic combustion temperatures of propane VS other alternatives is only half the problem. I'd guess that the crud and other content in propane has to be a big part of any problems using it for any kind of metal work too. Perhaps it's also a consistency issue. Not all sources, suppliers, or refiners are the same so fuel varies significantly across the country. "Your mileage may vary." 

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading all of your experiences and thought I'd add what I know to the story too. 

My own usage is a lot like @6.5 Fan. I like those little mapp/oxy sets you can get at crappy tire. The hoses and the torch are so small that you can use them for things and in places where you cannot really use Oxy/Acet very easily. 

I only use Propane itself in the travel trailer and the barbecue.


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## DHHok (Mar 16, 2022)

.......and just like that; the cart thread is derailed again. 
You guys lose focus so easily.


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## PeterT (Mar 16, 2022)

You are absolutely right. I will try my best now. Those other guys.... not so sure.


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## CalgaryPT (Mar 17, 2022)

DHHok said:


> .......and just like that; the cart thread is derailed again.
> You guys lose focus so easily.


I doubt anyone here takes that as a bad thing


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## Susquatch (Mar 17, 2022)

DHHok said:


> .......and just like that; the cart thread is derailed again.
> You guys lose focus so easily.



What cart?


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 17, 2022)

What's focus?


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## ShawnR (Mar 17, 2022)

DHHok said:


> .......and just like that; the cart thread is derailed again.
> You guys lose focus so easily.



That is OK. I just renamed the thread so all good now......

Sometimes, one just has to roll with it. 

But as to the cart part of this tale, I made the drawer yesterday. Mostly square...it was another opportunity to experiment with the welder. Gotta admit, I can see the benefits of the pulse function. Helps my welds look better than I am.


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## Tom O (Mar 17, 2022)

Squirrel!


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## ShawnR (Mar 18, 2022)

Last photo. This project...the welding cart,  ... is complete!

Unless I can find a piece of diamond checker plate for a drawer front but for now, the drawer is in and done and that is the last part, I think, for now....maybe a nice rack for the foot pedal, but then it will be done....

Cheers,


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