# Thinking About Acquiring a Mill



## Tecnico (Nov 18, 2021)

I mentioned this in my noob thread, I've got the bug to have a mill so it's time to start asking questions.  I'm thinking about something that's a good step above what I can do on my Myford with the vertical slide so I think it has to be something more than the small Busy Bee offerings and from the gist of the discussion here I think I can afford a full size "experienced" mill provided I can be in the right place at the right time.

So, questions.  I have an out building fed to a pony panel with 220V from my main panel on a dual 50 amp breaker so the first question is whether that's likely enough to feed a 3 phase mill running off a VFD.  HP limits?  What size of breaker would be likely?

The second question is about something that has popped up on the market.  The mill is labelled Drummond but it looks like an AVEMAX unit, maybe a 450VS (VSD, 10 x 50) judging from the photo.  I know nothing about them and I see another mill that looks like the family badged Konida so it's not clear who the actual manufacturer is.  Does anyone here have any experience with these?  Looks like they are Taiwanese and AVEMAX is at milling.com.tw.

Let's see if I can attach an image to this posting.....looks like I have succeeded!

So, any thought about how to price this machine given what it is and that it is covered in powder/sand or bodyfill or who knows what?  Any other interesting observations?

And the journey begins.

Thanks,

Dave


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## kylemp (Nov 19, 2021)

50a is LOTS on something like a vfd. Because that acts as a soft start ramping up the motor speed the current draw doesn't spike when it starts up. I run a 15hp phase converter which was starting a 10hp lathe on a 50a and have never tripped a breaker.

As for the mill, depends on where you are and if the ways are wiped out on it. It looks like a good machine - mechanically variable speed, power feed on the x and the quill, a dro, 30 taper.. As long as everything works ok I'd think 3500 to 5k would be reasonable, again assuming the ways aren't wiped out. The fact that's you're somewhere east could mean substantially less in pricing too as there's a lot more machines out there than in western Canada. Just make sure that everything functions correctly, if it doesn't then start dropping the price or walk away.

Also make sure that the motor is 208v, since you're out east there's a lot more 575v machines which you can't run through a vfd I don't think.. I had a 575v mill and had to run an rpc and transformer. 

In general for knee mills I wouldn't worry about the brand much. They're more or less all the same, I'd typically just assume they're all made in Taiwan (which is totally fine), the only exception to that is if it's something from eastern Europe in which case it'll be heavier and better quality.


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## Tecnico (Nov 19, 2021)

Kyle

Thanks for your comments.  

I guess I should clarify a bit on the east,  I'm east of the Quebec border so I'm not in the plentiful market of southern Ontario (central Canada from where I'm viewing LOL!).  Right now the only machines of note near me are this one and a Bridgeport Tracer.  I've read up a bit on converting a tracer and it looks like more than I want to jump into right now and with questionable resale value.  The photo of that machine didn't inspire me either.

Is your pricing estimate based on the machine looking neglected as the picture shows or just a general thought on machines of that vintage and origins?

While I'm at it, I've been doing a bit of reading and this machine type appears to be equipped as "NST#30/R8 (Opt. NST#40)".  I'm not sure if that means any of those are options or the machine was shipped with 30 plus R8 adapters, any insight?

I'm used to seeing R8 tooling, it seems quite popular, is #30 similar in cost and availability or is it a toss up if you have to buy anyhow?  Any down sides?  I presume you can tell from the photo that it's 30?

Cheers,

Dave


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## kylemp (Nov 19, 2021)

My pricing is based just off of general knowledge, there's always some flex depending on how the machine actually looks in person.. 
The nst 30 is the spindle taper, I'm quite certain that machine is a 30 taper as 40 taper is quite a bit larger. If it's 40 taper that's even better but it's unlikely. It'll be one of those two, you can see the drive dogs in the picture. 

R8 is by far the most common for knee mills and readily available, but isn't as strong as a 30 or 40 taper (this generally doesn't matter for that type of machine). It also has the downside of needing a bit more height to change tools because R8 is pretty long, and most collets you'll find are R8 meaning they don't repeat. You can get R8 to Er collet setups or rigid holders, doesn't generally matter to be honest. I wouldn't worry about what the spindle taper is, you'll make do with whatever it is I'm sure. As for cost of tooling, it's kind of a toss up.. 30 taper will be more in some aspects, but more flexible in others probably. If you watch auctions you'll see more taper tooling as shops don't really use R8.


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## Tom Kitta (Nov 19, 2021)

I can rough price that mill if you give me a location of it. It looks like R8. Could be 30 but definitely looks to skinny for 40.

With 50amp breaker I run 15hp rotary and started 10hp lathe. Now I have 60amps and runs great. 

In AB machine as per picture if in good condition but not great would be at least 5000 CAD. 

If using VFD 50amps is plenty. Take amp load of the mill multiply by 2 and pick larger breaker size. It probably will be ether 20 or 30.


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## Tecnico (Nov 19, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> I can rough price that mill if you give me a location of it. It looks like R8. Could be 30 but definitely looks to skinny for 40.



Hi Tom

The mill is in a rural community in the Maritimes, not sure what that means for what it'd sell for.  I haven't seen it in person, I'm trying to figure out how to buy one right now!

Cheers,

Dave


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## YYCHM (Nov 19, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> The mill is in a rural community in the Maritimes, not sure what that means for what it'd sell for.  I haven't seen it in person, I'm trying to figure out how to buy one right now!
> 
> ...



Boy.... that's vague.... How did you find it, and get a pic of it?


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## John Conroy (Nov 19, 2021)

This company in Quebec City seems to have a few decent looking mills that should be easier to access than one in the Maritimes









						Kijiji Canada
					

Machinerie Soudogaz | Kijiji Canada




					www.kijiji.ca


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## Susquatch (Nov 20, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> I mentioned this in my noob thread, I've got the bug to have a mill so it's time to start asking questions.  I'm thinking about something that's a good step above what I can do on my Myford with the vertical slide so I think it has to be something more than the small Busy Bee offerings and from the gist of the discussion here I think I can afford a full size "experienced" mill provided I can be in the right place at the right time.
> 
> So, questions.  I have an out building fed to a pony panel with 220V from my main panel on a dual 50 amp breaker so the first question is whether that's likely enough to feed a 3 phase mill running off a VFD.  HP limits?  What size of breaker would be likely?
> 
> ...



I've just been where you are. Although I've been milling with small stuff for many years, it was never anything fancy. I've just recently moved up to Knee Mill in the last 6 months. So I'm still a mill noob. 

I totally agree with others. 50A 220 is PLENTY for damn near anything you might find for home shop use. A VFD will handle converting to 3ph just fine.

I swapped out a 440V to 220 so I could avoid the need for step up hardware. A used 220V motor will be from 50 to 200.  A new 2HP motor will cost you between 200 and up, but then you can get a VFD rated motor.

The biggest issues around swapping Motors are the shaft diameter and length. Pulleys and sheaves are not cheap so its best to find a motor that swaps out directly if you can. If not, plan to add dollars for a step up transformer for the existing motor. 

Although that spindle is not R8, and bigger spindles have their advantages, I am quite happy with my R8. Tools for it are available everywhere at very reasonable prices.  If at all possible I'd try to find R8 just so you can run with the high volume pricing advantage for tooling. But again, that's noob advice.


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## Tecnico (Nov 20, 2021)

Hi Folks

Morning catch up:

Craig, having seen the discussion here in the forum about how quickly a good deal is scooped up I'm not wanting to shine a big light on where it is although I suppose a few minutes Googling would find it like I did.  Hope that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, no harm intended.

John, thanks for the link, if my S.O. was still on assignment in QC that'd be a good lead, although with shipping??

Susquatch,  Your posts on finding a mill and getting up to speed have inspired my efforts, thanks.  WRT the motor issue, is it likely that the VSD application motor would have any special fitment that wouldn't be covered in a normal NEMA frame spec.?  I don't have info but the spec. sheet for a mill that looks like it could be the machine I'm looking at claims 3 HP for the motor so I'm guessing higher voltage but that's only a guess.


UPDATE: 

I guess conventional wisdom is correct, I just checked the listing and the mill has been sold!  It was up about a week.  Don't know what it went for but I saw an auction listing for a similar machine that went for under $3k US and it was a lot cleaner looking, for the one I was looking at the ask was $5k CDN.  

OK, so here's the scoop, the mill was in a small community near Moncton NB which is about 3 hours from me, near Halifax.

Well, back to the drawing board but this effort wasn't wasted, it helped me start figuring out how to buy when something else pops up.  Thanks to everyone that responded to my posts.

I suppose the two headed Bridgeport beast including 2 VSD heads might still be there at $2k LOL!

Oh, one more question for everyone, I had a rough sense from reading the forum that you've been able to buy a decent knee mill (Bridgeport/clone) with some repair needed in the $2 - 3k range, is that accurate?

Thanks,

Dave


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## Mcgyver (Nov 20, 2021)

Yes, need a mill!

So here is some counter intuitive advice....considering paying as much as possible for a mill.  ok, not really, but what I mean is (location aside) price is function of the 1) quality level of the machine, 2) its condition (wear, abuse etc) and 3) and how much tooling comes with it.   There is no answere to "whats this machine worth" with without really taking a good look at 2 & 3.  Wear is very timeconsuming and expensive to correct for, and the the only way to get lots of good quality tooling inexpensively is if it comes with the mill.  

Pushing for as much as you can get in all three categories today will seem an amazing bargain, best money every spent kind of thing, over the years as you get great and convenient performance out of it.

Your power as Sasquatch says is more than adequate.  I run a 10hp RPC off a 220 40 amp breaker it handles the in rush current.  In Canada your mill will likely be 220V or 600V or possibly 220/440.  I would not let that influence me  (instead concentrating on items 1-3).   I also wouldn't plan on changing motors as often the motors on mills have weird housing and can't replaced easily with any standard NEMA frame.  However there is always an electrical way to make it work and with low cost VFD's, its easier than ever.  If 600v, its not difficult (220-600V transformers are on kijiji) to step to 600 before the VFD....although 600V vfds are more expensive (not the same abundance of low cost offshore models)  If its hooked up to 440 (American), its very often 220/440 ( i.e. wye and delta) and can be readily hooked up to 220 1P (via a VFD of course).


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## Susquatch (Nov 20, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> Craig, having seen the discussion here in the forum about how quickly a good deal is scooped up I'm not wanting to shine a big light on where it is although I suppose a few minutes Googling would find it like I did. Hope that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, no harm intended.



From what I have seen, I believe there is considerable honour among the members. Ya, maybe there is a guy or two that you can't trust but they show their colours pretty fast. Speaking just for myself, I'd have zero worries about anybody scooping a brand new mill worth 20 grand and selling for 200 out from under me. The members might argue and agree to disagree, but in my experience, they don't screw each other. Instead they bend over backwards to help each other. But then again, any body who did would be weeded out pretty quickly. 



Tecnico said:


> WRT the motor issue, is it likely that the VSD application motor would have any special fitment that wouldn't be covered in a normal NEMA frame spec.? I don't have info but the spec. sheet for a mill that looks like it could be the machine I'm looking at claims 3 HP for the motor so I'm guessing higher voltage



I think frame is not relevant to the VFD issue. 



Tecnico said:


> Oh, one more question for everyone, I had a rough sense from reading the forum that you've been able to buy a decent knee mill (Bridgeport/clone) with some repair needed in the $2 - 3k range, is that accurate?



I'd say more like 1.5 to 5k. All depending on condition and how desperate the seller is. 

I agree with @Mcgyver on all other counts.


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## Mcgyver (Nov 20, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> From what I have seen, I believe there is considerable honour among the members. Y



I agree.  Its also a fairly low key forum, I doubt thousands are seeing it.

....but

There is the potential for awkward situations if member A is already pursing it quietly and B mentions they going after it?  What do you then?  You might have been first to pursue it, but will potentially look like a scoundrel if B posts it but A  subsequently comes home with.  I like discretion in commercial affairs. 

It sort of ties in noting market deals - same dynamic in that mentioning it tips off a lot non members.  I've in the past on other forums I've been rather opposed to posting things for sale when you're not a stakeholder.   There is every bit as good a chance as you'll mess up a member up who is quietly pursuing the deal (and has being diligently looking for months) as there is you helping a member who wasn't paying attention or looking.  imo tie goes to guy already putting the effort in.  In addition, on some forums, there might be 25 members online but 150 lurking...and its the same 25 members but the lurkers churn.  You're interfering with the market advertising it to 100's or 1000's that aren't part of the community and wouldn't have otherwise heard of the ad.

It also creates a lot of noise that messes up the buy side.  I was chasing a lathe once.  Mid pursuit, it came up on another forum.  All of sudden several people email the vendor and he tells me so, thinks he's got the hot offering witjh so many interested parties.  Turns out in forum discussions months later I knew 2 or 3 of them; they are foreign and the closest was 600 miles away.  They weren't going to buy it, they were just bored and wasting time....meanwhile I think it cost me money because it influenced the seller's perception.

I don't think its much of an issue here (and I've done it) because its a smaller a fairly tight knit group.  Still.....I'd make the "spotted deals" invisible to anyone with less than 25 or 50 posts or not signed in, in other words if you're not trying to be part of community you don't get access to it.


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## Janger (Nov 20, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I agree.  Its also a fairly low key forum, I doubt thousands are seeing it.
> 
> ....but
> 
> ...


@Alexander @Jwest7788 
Some interesting perspective here guys. Let’s discuss at the next admin meeting. Thanks @Mcgyver


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## Brent H (Nov 20, 2021)

Where do you live close to @Tecnico?  Halifax?  If you are close there I will check on a lead for a few machines for you  - need a lathe?  

Anyway for the Milling machines:  Most you will see will be a Bridgeport or knock off - that means "typically" R8 spindle and 1.5 to 2 Hp.  If you can get one that is 220/440 3 phase - easy to drive with a VFD and 220 x 15 amp power supply.  I think my mill draws about 3 to 4 amps.  The older pully drive mills are easier to convert to a new single phase motor or 220 three phase - except you have to watch shaft length.  There are ways around that.

Larger mills with 3 Hp motors will typically have a 30, 40 or 50 taper depending on the size and application.  My mill has a 30 taper.  Tooling is not as available as the R8 counterparts but that is overcome with a good collet holder(s) and shopping kijiji and getting lucky on a few e-bay purchases.  Finding a mill with an included vise, tooling etc - pounce fast as people buy them things just for parts.

For the mills and lathes - timing can be of the essence.  Anything I post in the member spotted deals is something that I am not going to buy but hope someone can pop on and nab it.  I did buy Miss Metric the lathe as she was sitting lonely for quite a while and it worked out.  I usually will pm or text a member if I spot something and they are on the hunt....seems reasonable nice to do


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## Susquatch (Nov 20, 2021)

Janger said:


> @Alexander @Jwest7788
> Some interesting perspective here guys. Let’s discuss at the next admin meeting. Thanks @Mcgyver



Hey @Janger, some great points are being made here. Lots of things I didn't consider. 

I will say that I have developed a lot of trust for the more active members, but who knows who is all out there just lurking. And I agree with the point about who was really first. 

Perhaps we need a "equipment wanted" group that members can use to PM when they find things. The posts can be deleted as equipment is acquired. I dunno. Like you, I'd just like to be able to help. 

Back when I was looking for a mill and new to the group, I posted a few photos, and PMd a few members in the process of looking for advice. However, I kept the deal info itself to myself until after the buy was a done deal. I was successful in the several purchases and grateful for all the advice I got. I certainly love my mills! It would be nice to be able to help others be successful too.


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## Tecnico (Nov 20, 2021)

Afternoon check in.

I spent the afternoon making pieces for my dial indicator mount/carriage stop, made some progress with a couple of setbacks.  Time to put it down and thing about other things for a while.

I'm liking the warm & fuzzy feeling here about respecting deals & helping, hope I can hold up my end!  For shopping I guess the lurkers are the biggest unknown.

Brent, I'm close to Halifax/Dartmouth, so anything around here is easily within reach.  I'm not actively looking for a lathe but it'd be nice to have something bigger than the Myford but I am keeping my eye out for a mill.

Thanks to everyone for all the good feedback.

Cheers,

Dave


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## Brent H (Nov 20, 2021)

@Tecnico - Let me see what might be lurking close to you...


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## Six O Two (Nov 22, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> John, thanks for the link, if my S.O. was still on assignment in QC that'd be a good lead, although with shipping??



For reference, four year ago I paid $1200 to freight a milling machine from Montreal to the BC Interior (which included a $100 upcharge for liftgate service which turned out to be wasted money). Western Canada can be a desert for old iron, so shipping from Eastern Canada made sense. Even at that price, it was still much cheaper than fighting to find something localish to me. It was definitely a bit of an adventure to actually get it delivered to me, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat.


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## Tecnico (Nov 23, 2021)

Hi Marco 

Did you buy sight unseen?  If you did then you're braver than I am or a calculated risk taker!

I guess that I'm early enough in the process that I haven't thought through all the details on how to do it.

I figured shipping a couple hundred miles for the one I was looking at would take a big bite out of $1k with loading & unloading rolled in let alone across three provinces..  I unfortunately don't have a setup worthy of offloading something that heavy so it would mean a boom truck or something like that on this end.

More to think about.

Oh, and what's lurking...well it's not at the shop we use at the office for machining,  I spoke to their estimator about something today and what they have, they're using to make things for customers like us!

Cheers,

Dave


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## Darren (Nov 23, 2021)

Don't be afraid of a CNC knee mill. They can usually be operated manually. My Kent had a missing/broken cnc control and a broken x-axis ballscrew when i bought it.  I pulled the belts off the servos for less drag. I replaced the ballscrew and run it manually. Its great because it has hard chrome box ways with turcite, auto oiler, ballscrews , a 6000 rpm EVS head (so it came with a vfd system already). It has an R8 taper which i have no problem with.  Its silky smooth to operate, and has zero backlash due to the ballscrews.  I will eventually return it to cnc control, i think.  Anyways, i've seen CNC machines with broken controls sell for less than a clapped out manual machine, despite all the advantages.


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## PeterT (Nov 23, 2021)

My ears always perk up when I hear ballscrew leadscrews used on manual machines. Just out of interest, what is the equivalent thread pitch?


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## Darren (Nov 23, 2021)

5.08mm, or 0.200" per rev, although with a DRO it really doesn't matter.


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## Six O Two (Nov 23, 2021)

@Tecnico - Yeah, it was definitely a bit of a gamble. But I figured with what I was saving, I could still afford to fix anything that was too far gone, and it would be a good learning experience. I picked a small auctioneer who seemed to mostly sell equipment found in technical schools. I got lucky. The mill was expertly crated on a pallet and loaded at no extra charge. The auctioneer also had a preferred shipper whose prices were inline with online quotes I got at freightquote.com, so I chose to use the preferred shipper. I paid for liftgate service and had visions of the mill being delivered to me right in front of my garage.

Of course, life has a way of throwing curve balls at ya once in a while. Our town is in the mountains and very hilly and my street and driveway are nowhere near level. When the mill arrived, the driver and I could barely even lift the 2500lb mill off the deck of the box truck with his pallet truck, let alone try and move it out of the back and onto the lifgate. I was pretty crestfallen as the driver gave up and drove the mill off to the dispatch office in the next town over. I thought I'd have to try and rent a forklift or something, and was pretty worried about shipping costs snowballing, but instead I just called the local towing company. A few days later, a tilt-bed wrecker went to the shipping company's offices, the mill was loaded with their forklift onto the wrecker, and the towing company drove it 45 minutes to my place and I helped to winch/slide/roll/pursuade the pallet off the tilt-bed onto my driveway for something ridiculously cheap, like $200 or something.

If I had to do it all over again (when I do it again?), I'll just get shipping quoted to the local shipping depot and then get the towing company to take from there to me, and not bother with liftgate at all. 

As for the mill, it was pretty excellent considering its age, although not perfect. The backlash is good, but bed is pretty pockmarked, and it does howl like a banshee at certain speeds (maybe needs new bearings?). I'll get to fixing that one day. But other than that, I've been extremely happy with it. Definately got lucky. I was less lucky when got a lathe shipped from Pennsylvania to Washington state, but that's whole 'nother story.


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## PeterT (Nov 23, 2021)

Thanks. And what is the leadscrew OD? And do you lock your set way axis each pass?

No it wasn't the DRO/measurement aspect. It's that some references have claimed the ballscrew retrofit can self feed on itself while cutting because the ballscrew resistance is so low compare to conventional acme thread form. I suspect all mills have locks on both axis but some lathes don't on certain axis. Anyways, in the absence of any direct retrofit experience I had a hunch finer pitch may be less prone to drift than coarse, but sometimes you cant get the desirable nominal feed per rev with available ballscrew selection.


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## Darren (Nov 23, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Thanks. And what is the leadscrew OD? And do you lock your set way axis each pass?
> 
> No it wasn't the DRO/measurement aspect. It's that some references have claimed the ballscrew retrofit can self feed on itself while cutting because the ballscrew resistance is so low compare to conventional acme thread form. I suspect all mills have locks on both axis but some lathes don't on certain axis. Anyways, in the absence of any direct retrofit experience I had a hunch finer pitch may be less prone to drift than coarse, but sometimes you cant get the desirable nominal feed per rev with available ballscrew selection.


The original ballscrew was 25mm. The replacement i got was 32mm. I had to bore out the yoke to fit the new ballnut and modify the one end of the new screw. But i got a brand new precision ground screw on ebay for 200 bones, so the effort was worth it.

Backdriving of the screws is not really a problem, most of the time. Heavy deep roughing cuts might move the y axis a few thou but i can flip the lock on if needed, and it never moves on a finish cut.  So it really hasn't been a problem. Paying attention to the DRO helps,

Ballscrews on a manual mill are a dream to operate. Sooo smooth, but the zero backlash is the best.


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## Tecnico (Nov 29, 2021)

Moving along in my thought process of finding a suitable machine I have some more questions. 

I've seen several of the machine I started this by looking at, they seem to get many different "brand" badges put on them (Drummond, King, Lilan, Kondia, Darbert, Acra, Modern) but appear to be the same machine or family originating in Taiwan.  I`m wondering if they`re all the same under the label and how hard parts are to come by for them (interchange?).  Also what wears out on them?

What got me thinking about this is an ad I saw for one of these that had a lower price and said the variable speed control of the head needed work.  Would that be a can of worms or a good opportunity?  That ties into the question whether the Taiwan sourced equipment is well supported for parts?

Thanks,

D


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## Darren (Nov 29, 2021)

A Taiwan bridgeport clone should be well supported as far as parts goes. HH Roberts etc should have everything you need for the head.


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## Susquatch (Nov 29, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> I saw for one of these that had a lower price and said the variable speed control of the head needed work. Would that be a can of worms or a good opportunity? That ties into the question whether the Taiwan sourced equipment is well supported for parts?



I agree with @dfloen. With a few exceptions, most of the parts on my Hartford Clone of the stepulley Bridgeport are interchangeable with the genuine Bridgeport.

In addition to HH Roberts in Canada, you can also get parts in the USA at H&W Machinery, at Icai-online, at MSC Direct, and even on ebay. Sometimes parts are cheaper at one VS the other.

If you find one, post some photos and members here can usually help you with advice.

I assume that the variable speed head is a Bridgeport Vari-Speed Clone. There are lots of parts for that. I would not be afraid of it, but you never know. From what other members have advised me, I'd be more worried about the table than the head.


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## Susquatch (Nov 29, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> What got me thinking about this is an ad I saw for one of these that had a lower price



One more thing. If you want a Bridgeport Clone at a good price you shoud get yourself as well informed as possible and then be prepared to buy or not at the drop of a dime. Good deals are usually long gone by the time you go back for a second look.


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## Tecnico (Nov 29, 2021)

When you speak of a Bridgeport clone with Vari-Speed are you referring to a machine like in the photo I showed in post 1 of this thread?  Would that be the type that the Bridgeport (and clone) parts would fit?

When you speak of being worried about the table, is that more the ways/sliding surfaces ot the lead screws/nuts?

I get your point about getting well informed for when a candidate pops up.....climbing the learning curve!

D


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## Darren (Nov 29, 2021)

yes that is a clone


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> When you speak of a Bridgeport clone with Vari-Speed are you referring to a machine like in the photo I showed in post 1 of this thread? Would that be the type that the Bridgeport (and clone) parts would fit?



I guess that the word "Clone" means different things to different people. And I am by no means an expert at mill construction and parts interchangeability - I'm not sure that anyone is. Even the people who sell parts routinely screw that up.

I looked at your first photo again more closely. It would seem to replicate the function of a Bridgeport VariSpeed Knee Mill, and therefore it is a Clone in that sense of the word. However, in this mill's case, I doubt that very many of the parts are actually interchangeable, and therefore it is not a true Clone in that sense of the word.

Here is a photo of a Genuine Bridgeport VariSpeed, and below that is a copy of your photo (for ease of comparison).

If you look closely, you can see that the housings have significant differences and many of the controls are in different locations. In my opinion, they are clones in the sense that anyone using them would be totally familiar with their operation and could use them seamlessly. But speaking as someone who has taken two of them apart, (but not dozens) I doubt that many of the parts of these two mills are interchangeable.














Tecnico said:


> When you speak of being worried about the table, is that more the ways/sliding surfaces ot the lead screws/nuts?



Actually, both.

Almost everything in the head and even the head itself can be replaced or swapped out. But the table and knee can not.

All three pairs of ways wear and/or can be abused to the point of not being able to repair them.

The leadscrews and split nuts can be replaced but are expensive.

Another thing that can be worn out is the gibbs. Again, they can be replaced but are expensive.

Even a badly abused table surface can usually be cleaned up and repaired to some extent. In other words, table damage/wear is mostly cosmetic.

In summary, if I were looking for a BP or a Clone, my main concerns would be the condition of the ways, the leade screws and split nuts, and the Gibbs.

There are some expensive parts in the head too, but it's much harder to tell what is really wrong with the head until you get it apart. Everyone who buys a used knee mill takes that risk. It's always nice if you can run the machine before you buy. But even if not, you can usually put the machine in neutral and spin the spindle by hand to see if everything turns smoothly, and you can usually tell if it's totally pooched. 

I'd say that bearings and the belts are the main wear items in the head, but they are just work to replace and are not outrageously expensive. 

Last, but not least is the motor. You need to be aware of your power needs and compatibility. Motors come in both single and 3 phase as well as many different voltages. There are ways to accommodate almost anything but that process can add up too.


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## Canadium (Nov 30, 2021)

I've been following this thread with great interest because I am at a similar point as @Tecnico when it comes to looking for a mill. Significant difference may be that I live in Ontario where deals are relatively numerous and I have the experience of buying so far 3 old lathes. Still the whole process of buying an old industrial machine as a mere hobbyist seems like a big crap shoot to me. No matter how much one researches the subject it seems the only way to become really expert is to actually get a machine and play with it. The only way to really know the flaws in a particular machine is to bring it home and spend some time with it. The only way to beat out the competition and actually consummate a deal is to dive in blind sight unseen and snap it up before someone else gets it. Perhaps the ideal would be to see the machine with a more experienced friend but even with all the great guys on this forum I don't know any friends near me that are experienced with mills and willing to help with a purchase. Even scarier is the prospect of moving a piece of iron that is heavier than anything I've ever moved before and heavy enough to kill or maim someone if it moves the wrong way.


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2021)

Canadium said:


> The only way to beat out the competition and actually consummate a deal is to dive in blind sight unseen and snap it up before someone else gets it. Perhaps the ideal would be to see the machine with a more experienced friend but even with all the great guys on this forum I don't know any friends near me that are experienced with mills and willing to help with a purchase. Even scarier is the prospect of moving a piece of iron that is heavier than anything I've ever moved before and heavy enough to kill or maim someone if it moves the wrong way.



A whole lot of truth in what you say...... 

But I'll make you an offer - keeping in mind that I'm no expert. Many members here have forgotten more than I know. But I do have a Bridgeport and a Hartford Clone, and a smaller older mill/drill that I have diagnosed, repaired, and used under my belt. I don't live in Hamilton, but I do live halfway between Windsor and London which is Canada's Tool & Die Heartland. If you find one down here that you want to look at, I'll happily go with you, help you load it, and give you some advice on how to unload it at your end.


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## Canadium (Nov 30, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> A whole lot of truth in what you say......
> 
> But I'll make you an offer - keeping in mind that I'm no expert. Many members here have forgotten more than I know. But I do have a Bridgeport and a Hartford Clone, and a smaller older mill/drill that I have diagnosed, repaired, and used under my belt. I don't live in Hamilton, but I do live halfway between Windsor and London which is Canada's Tool & Die Heartland. If you find one down here that you want to look at, I'll happily go with you, help you load it, and give you some advice on how to unload it at your end.


An awesome offer. Thankyou @Susquatch !


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## Tecnico (Nov 30, 2021)

That's a nice looking Bridgeport!  Looks a lot like this:






I wondered about the use of the word clone, the way I've seen it used (not just shop equipment) seemed to imply parts interchangeability but even without it those two mills are strikingly similar even if not at all interchangeable.  Clearly someone had a Bridgeport to take close notes from when making the (insert clone name here).  I'm getting the sense though that even for the Taiwan machines parts can be had even if they're pricey, it seems different from the lathe landscape for far east machines.

Canadium, I think Susquatch is 100% right, you've captured whole lot of truth and especially out here far from the center of mass for the manufacturing industry.  Funny though the shops we deal with at the office are always heavily booked.  I guess they're hanging onto their machines!

I think I have more homework to do while I wait & see what pops up.

D


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## 140mower (Nov 30, 2021)

Canadium said:


> I've been following this thread with great interest because I am at a similar point as @Tecnico when it comes to looking for a mill. Significant difference may be that I live in Ontario where deals are relatively numerous and I have the experience of buying so far 3 old lathes. Still the whole process of buying an old industrial machine as a mere hobbyist seems like a big crap shoot to me. No matter how much one researches the subject it seems the only way to become really expert is to actually get a machine and play with it. The only way to really know the flaws in a particular machine is to bring it home and spend some time with it. The only way to beat out the competition and actually consummate a deal is to dive in blind sight unseen and snap it up before someone else gets it. Perhaps the ideal would be to see the machine with a more experienced friend but even with all the great guys on this forum I don't know any friends near me that are experienced with mills and willing to help with a purchase. Even scarier is the prospect of moving a piece of iron that is heavier than anything I've ever moved before and heavy enough to kill or maim someone if it moves the wrong way.


Where I am, if I want something it's almost always an 8hr drive round trip to pick it up, so most of my deals have been made sight unseen. So far, I haven't regretted anything I have gone chasing after.... Nothing has been perfect, and all have needed tweeking and a bunch of cleaning, and usually a part or two made.  It is part of what makes it yours.


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> That's a nice looking Bridgeport!  Looks a lot like this:
> 
> View attachment 18629
> 
> ...



That Avemax in your photo is a great talking point example. It is a pulley head quite similar to the Bridgeport Pulley Head. Most of the parts would probably be interchangeable. However there is one major discrepancy that would worry me. If you look at the top section below the motor, you will see that it is not very tall. Certainly not tall enough to accommodate the pulleys, a timing belt, and a bull gear all stacked one above the other. In other words, this mill does not appear to have a low speed mechanism, or it is a different design. There is also an extra handle on the motor and there is no top/bottom disconnect on the spindle hat in front of the motor. I could be wrong, but it also looks like the brake is on the right rear where the hi/low gear change would normally be instead of at the top front left where it is on the pulley drive model. 

Functionally, that would not bother me because you can get the low speed from a VFD instead. But it would bother me to wonder how that drive section works, what is different, and will I be able to get parts for it.


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## Tecnico (Nov 30, 2021)

I should mention that I'm not on the hunt for that one, it's a photo from the Avemax site, I was using it as a clone perhaps closer to the Bridgeport (other then the drive).  I just looked and it's listed as 8 speed step pulley with "Unique design on Hi-Low gear speed commutation".

D


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> I should mention that I'm not on the hunt for that one, it's a photo from the Avemax site, I was using it as a clone perhaps closer to the Bridgeport (other then the drive).  I just looked and it's listed as 8 speed step pulley with "Unique design on Hi-Low gear speed commutation".
> 
> D



I kinda assumed that. It looks brand new. I guess it is!

I'm thinking there is a gear in the end of the motor or an electrical system to double (or half) the motor speed itself.

Anyway, it's a great example of close but not really.

Below is a photo of my Hartford VS a pulley drive Bridgeport below that. As you can see, it's a much closer clone. But even so there are still some minor differences.


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## Tecnico (Dec 1, 2021)

Today's update.

I took the opportunity to call HH Roberts to sound them out on sourcing parts for the Taiwan clones as suggested, the gent was talkative and shared some good info.

I was asking about what the landscape looked like for spares and basically it came back that with the TW clones it's hit/miss whether parts can be found (even if they appear to be the same machine).  He has a Stanko in the shop that he describes as sounding like a cement mixer and he's tried through his channels to TW to source parts without success.  He's resigned to let it go cheap for $3500!  It looks a lot like the typical TW clone like I started out looking at.

He has no problem getting parts for his TW clones, he sells Topwell and said someone with time on their hands might be able to make parts for the Stanko.

So, that makes me think a bit about the risk of the typical TW clone and what one might get into fixing/maintaining one.  I'm going to have to think about that for a while!

D


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## Susquatch (Dec 2, 2021)

Tecnico said:


> Today's update.
> 
> I took the opportunity to call HH Roberts to sound them out on sourcing parts for the Taiwan clones as suggested, the gent was talkative and shared some good info.
> 
> ...



Yup. Pretty much what I concluded myself. Most of the parts on my Hartford are the same. But, a few are not. 

I suppose that's another reason to hold out for an original Bridgeport in decent condition. 

So, all that said. There is another way to look at such things. Your contact at HH Roberts actually shows the way. It goes like this..... 

Buying used anything is always a crap shoot unless you know the machine and the guy selling it. So perhaps it just makes sense to look for the best you can find and then dive in. It may turn out to be a mistake, but then you sell cheap and try again or find another way. On the other hand if you don't try, you cannot succeed. There is no such thing as a life well lived without taking chances along the way. 

In other words. Learn as much as you can, then find one that meets your needs, buy it yesterday, and be prepared for a few nasty surprises. They happen, but don't let the fear of them stop you from chasing your goals.


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## Dabbler (Dec 4, 2021)

I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and following this excellent discussion.  Here's a few thoughts from my experience -- 

(I should say that I have owned 5 mills over about 30 years, and only bought 1 of them new, and have 'consulted' on the purchase of about 5 more.

Industrial machines are built pretty tough, and they are used hard.  This makes it pretty easy to spot a 'dud', especially if it is powered and you can run it. (there are a few good 'mill buying guides' on youtube and the 'net)

You live in a place where deals come up often, and even though we say be ready with cash - you can afford to be picky until you get one that your are comfortable with.  Then spend the money and be prepared to take it what ever it is.

@Susquatch has super relevant experience here - when I saw the condition of the Hartford I could see from the photos that it was a very good mill at an excellent price.  For a first mill, be prepared to spend a little *more* so you don't spend your early year(s) repairing a boat anchor.

Bargain mills are almost always that - a bargain that someone ELSE should be buying.

Lastly, don't worry too much about the parts thing - don't buy that mill that the parts guy wants to unload BTW - Most mills in good shape, used properly, will outlast you and your hobby.  If you were going to do 4 hours of milling 5 days a week, you need to buy new from the start, a brand name that has a parts pipeline.

If youn are a hobby guy like me, 4 - 5 hours a month is more like it.


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## Dabbler (Dec 4, 2021)

I should add that *deals* do come up from time to time.  @Johnwa found a kijiji mill that I bought - less than 100 hrs, Modern 945, around 2K$ with a vise and hold down kit.

Unbelievably, I was the -third- person to view it.  The first two made lowball counteroffers.  I gave her every penny of ask, as it was worth double that.  I even told her it was worth much more than double in that condition, but she was happy to get her ask.


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## Tecnico (Apr 30, 2022)

I guess I should put a bow on this thread since I scooped up a First LC1-1/2.  The thread on that is here: Tecnico's First Mill.

Thanks everyone for your input.

D


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