# Hello from Ottawa, Ontario



## Fermic (Oct 19, 2020)

Hi everyone, 
I am new to the hobby metal working and I strumbled on your canadian forum for metal workers by luck of online searching


In these times, I kinda want kill my boredem and learn something new in my life with metal working while I can.

And hopefully, the mess is sorted out and I can find a decent metal lathe with all features I want plus being fully metric.


My thread about this search for context is in hobby machinist with same profile name.


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## trlvn (Oct 19, 2020)

Welcome!  I wasn't quite clear if you have any machines yet or if you are just starting out?  It seems to me that more of the products available locally are inch-based rather than metric.  OTOH, I haven't really searched for metric-based tools.  What is it that is pushing you towards metric?  

Either way, we're an easy-going group here and we'd love to see pictures and hear about what you're doing.  Lots of folks will share their expertise, too.

Craig
(Some of us will even share when our "expertise" is pretty questionable!)


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 19, 2020)

Welcome from Calgary Fermic.


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## Fermic (Oct 19, 2020)

Thanks for the welcome



trlvn said:


> I wasn't quite clear if you have any machines yet or if you are just starting out?



Currently, I never had metal lathe or mill. But I gathered my metric micrometer, calipers, 25/50/75 mm blocks and my dial indicator.
The 10x22 busy bee lathe looks nice but PM-1022 or PM-1030 looks much more nicer with better chuck change system than Busy bee's. LittleMachineShop 8.5x20 with all required parts might cost me 4000 $ with taxes and shipping included.


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## gerritv (Oct 19, 2020)

Have you bought that already? An awful lot of money Imo. Atlas Machinery & KBC Tools sell King 1022. With the difference add dro's and a ton of tooling and you are set. I have an older king 1022 and love it.


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## Fermic (Oct 19, 2020)

gerritv said:


> Have you bought that already? An awful lot of money Imo. Atlas Machinery & KBC Tools sell King 1022. With the difference add dro's and a ton of tooling and you are set. I have an older king 1022 and love it.



Well yes, but the only 10x22 lathe with power feed is from Busy Bee. In USA, LittleMachineShop 8.5x20, I can buy parts to convert the lathe to fully metric and have their power feed similar to Emco Maximat ( that I missed a great deal of this lathe on kijiji many months ago ) but the cost is kinda high and price will go up on Nov 10th because extra tariffs.

And I have trouble finding anyone in Canada who is willing to sell or import metric metal lathe here.


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## PeterT (Oct 19, 2020)

A lot of hobbyist machines benefit from DRO installations for lots of other reasons. But the great thing is I suspect most all DROs these days can display metric with a simple button push. Half the time I don't even look at my dials anymore unless I'm roughing to some nominal increment or some more obscure operation. Granted, threading on an IMP lathe requires metric change gears (usually packaged with) and a few other changes to work flow. 

But yeah a metric lathe might be slim pickins these days. They had them in schools when Canada was 'converting' but that was some time ago & probably the biggest gamble from Jr apprentice abuse standpoint. Maybe you can land on a metric that was imported but they also sometimes had ISO spindle noses & other mounting standards which might mean more obscure adapters. The other factor about working in metric is basically all your measuring tools ideally should also be metric & that stuff can rapidly pale in cost to a hobby lathe.


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## Fermic (Oct 19, 2020)

PeterT said:


> A lot of hobbyist machines benefit from DRO installations for lots of other reasons. But the great thing is I suspect most all DROs these days can display metric with a simple button push. Half the time I don't even look at my dials anymore unless I'm roughing to some nominal increment or some more obscure operation. Granted, threading on an IMP lathe requires metric change gears (usually packaged with) and a few other changes to work flow.


True, been in chat with someone who confirmed that yes DROs are great asset for hobby lathes with decent metric threading capability and power feed. I already own metric measuring tools, they are cheap because that's from china.



PeterT said:


> But yeah a metric lathe might be slim pickins these days.


Fair, I'll get by with any lathes if I must. Busy Bee CX706 is out of stock, it has all features I want.


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## Fermic (Oct 20, 2020)

Well, I am about to a deposit for keeping the current price with Buy Lathe 10in. X22in. Metal With Digital Readout at Busy Bee Tools at 2900 $ CAD, this is a good choice on this metal lathe ?


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## kevin.decelles (Oct 21, 2020)

I believe that the digital readout is only the rom (speed) and not a DRO of the axises




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trlvn (Oct 21, 2020)

A couple of things you might check out.  Since you want a metric lathe, check the screws that operate the cross-slide and the compound.  Does one full turn move an even number of millimetres?  Or are they imperial screws where one full turn moves 2.54 mm or some other odd amount.

Also, I note that the Grizzly G0752 [1] variable speed feature uses a 3 phase motor and an inverter.  I think that is a good system that ought to be reliable.  I seem to recall reports of the variable speed components failing on some import lathes.  Sorry, I don't know any more specifics.

[1] https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-x-22-Variable-Speed-Lathe/G0752

Craig


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## YotaBota (Oct 21, 2020)

If you put down the deposit make sure they write in the free stand, that promotion could be finished by the time the lathe arrives.


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## RobinHood (Oct 21, 2020)

@Fermic: you may want to confirm this with BB, but I am not sure that this lathe is metric at all. See the lead screw specification out of the CX706 manual (images below). It would be a shame for you to put down all this money and not get the machine you really want.

item # 106 is the top slide screw 20TPI (threads per inch)
item # 124 is the cross slide screw 10TPI
item # 225 is the tail stock screw 10TPI
and item # 273 is the threading lead screw 8TPI

none of them are metric. Can the lathe be used in metric measurements - for sure. Is it a true metric lathe - it does not appear so. Perhaps I am missing something and you have found info to the contrary?


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## Fermic (Oct 21, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> If you put down the deposit make sure they write in the free stand, that promotion could be finished by the time the lathe arrives.


That's true, but our workshop table is solid and I think they rolled the stand's cost into the metal lathe's price during the free stand promo.



RobinHood said:


> none of them are metric. Can the lathe be used in metric measurements - for sure. Is it a true metric lathe - it does not appear so. Perhaps I am missing something and you have found info to the contrary?


I spoke with someone, what I got is buying a real DRO will solve that problem of metric/imperial with actual readings and experience. Metric lathes are hard to get here. Maybe when I find metric part for this model of lathe in europe websites, I'll buy them cheap.

Right now, I have few choices for that in order of cost, Grizzly G4000 for their features and cost less than the Busy Bee, Precision Matthews PM-1022/PM-1030 or Little Machine Shop 8.5x20 with metric kit and some items to complete it ( missing accessoires ) which can bring the cost to 3000 USD with shipping included.

Getting a metal lathe from USA is EXPENSIVE.


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## PeterT (Oct 21, 2020)

Not sure if you are referencing my reply/post but just to clarify

- if its an IMP machine as Rudy is suggesting, the dials are probably IMP as they should be, so that is what you would read normally. It usually is a round number like 0.100" per revolution and maybe 0.001" finest line increment but it varies

- some IMP machine dials may have a secondary scale ring in metric, maybe a different color. Its useable but generally not great because it will be an oddball metric increment per revolution

- if you install DRO on these axis, the physical displacement is conveyed on the DRO display box and that is where you switch from IMP to metric (screen grab I provided). So you would typically have DRO on cross slide axis and longitudinal bed axis. That kind of takes care of  getting the dials out of the picture. This has nothing to do with 'readout' mentioned on the advertisement. They are probably talking about the little LCD display window on the headstock, that's probably just spindle rpm. What I'm referring to is DRO displacement readout. And this is not  trivial point because certain lathes, especially the smaller ones, require specific DRO scales etc. to fit, so you may ant to check that model against Google search to see what others have done.

- but when it comes to metric THREADING you have an IMP leadscrew & gears so you typically have to remove specific IMP gears in the headstock & put in different tooth count gears to achieve metric pitch. This is common & what we have to do to thread metric on IMP machine, but you need to confirm capability & what pitches can/cannot be cut. Whereas a metric machine would have metric leadscrew, gears, dial increments... an entirely metric machine.


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## Fermic (Oct 21, 2020)

PeterT, sorry for forgetting to inform you. I have a idea about that problem and that's with a real DRO or buying machine parts from european regions to convert the busy bee lathe to fully metric. As for threading in metric, I did think to check for it for sufficent number of threads, otherwise I have my tap and dies for that. And I can thread it with threading dial oxtools's trick 




Last thing about LMS lathe is it doesn't come with threading dial, but this machine looks good except for not being bundled with standard accesoires like other metal lathes ( faceplate, 4-jaw chuck, etc ), getting these costs too much for me.


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## gerritv (Oct 21, 2020)

I have to ask, why all this the focus on a metric lathe? They are just not commonly available in North America. Regardless of the lathes mentioned so far, to cut threads you will have to change gears. Whether it is to add in a 127 tooth one or a 120 tooth one to swtich between inferial and metric or to change pitch.

For cross slide and compound, add DRO scales and you have the best of both. Tailstocks have metric and inferial scales on them from factory in most cases. At that point the pitch of the lead screw and others is irrelevant. Having used my 1022 with and without scales/DRO I would never be without a DRO again. With the DRO I flip between metric and inferial within a single part at will. (except threading of course due to gearing)

I understand power crossfeed is also a great feature but after 10+ years of playing without it on my lathes it has never stopped me from getting stuff done. If you really need this then again you are significantly limiting your choices in Canada.
Certainly in Europe you would have access to some metric lathes, e.g. Proxxon, Schaublin, Emco (used or new) but even there many of the new lathes are Asian and essentially the same as the ones at KBC Tools, Atlas Machinery and BusyBee. I could find nothing e.g. HBM that specifically says their cross slide are metric screw. They use the same 0.025mm increments the Canadian lathes do.

And yes, Oxtool has a nifty method, it is also much more complex than necessary; the usual metric on imperial with keeping the half nut engaged is far less error prone. It also assumes that your lathe spindle stops promptly which is assuredly not the case on hobby lathes in my experience.

My point in all this is to gently suggest that need vs. want might be a good reflection given the money involved.

Gerrit


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## Janger (Oct 21, 2020)

A lot of good advice here from the usual gang. One thing they didn't mention - buying something used may get you a lot more bang for the buck. A few years ago I spent ~$3600 on a 14x40 used modern lathe C0636. The change gears are much easier to switch and perhaps you only need to change one or two instead of five or six fussy ones. 2HP and plenty of travel, fairly big spindle bore, sophisticated gear options for power feeds, power transverse & cross feed in both directions. You can add a DRO for easier metric readings. Watch facebook marketplace, kijiji, auctions for a while and get a feel for the options. I suggest you get something a little bigger as it will just work better. Out east there are a lot more options too than around here.


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## gerritv (Oct 21, 2020)

Good point on number of gears to change.
I typically only thread, switching is 2-3 gears only on the 1022 style lathes (3 if switching metric<->inferial). Switching between threading and Z feed involves 4 if memory serves me. Choosing alternate geasrs to what the manual suggests generally results in quite a range of pitches with the 2 controls on front of lathe.

Were I to do this over again I would wait for a Standard Modern and add the usual missing goodies such as extra chucks 

Gerrit


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## Fermic (Oct 21, 2020)

Sadly, I once spotted a Standard Modern that goes for 5k CAD with Metric-Inferial toggle switch and it is muuch bigger than 10x22. I swear that I once saw a new King Canada 10x22 going for 2399 CAD but it seems the deal is gone.

While I did spend my time watching for any used machines, I wouldn't want spend for more than 1 year for these used metal lathes. It wouldn't be fun given I spent at least 6 months on that.

For threading options, I have my tap and dies with imperial and metric in various standard sizes in case I need make something. So chances are I won't often thread something unless required. And I'll be using HSS tooling for everything on a small metal lathe. Power feed feature is cool for me, but if the price allows I could buy the busy bee 10x22 if the price drops when the "free stand" promo ends.


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## Brent H (Oct 21, 2020)

Keep your eyes open for a 11 or 13 inch metric standard modern.  They pop up from time to time and are a good quality machine.   I have no patience for the metric threading on the lathe and quite frankly if the original metric idiots had just expressed the metric threads as threads per centimeter it would make life so much easier.  Must have been one big brain fart when they decided that fractions were so taboo......ahhh the arrogance of science....

Anyway, many of the Standard Modern lathes of older generations (like the 10/12 Utilathe or the 11/13 Series 1000) have different configurations and combinations between full metric, a combination of metric dials and imperial gears or metric/imperial change gears.  Probably because of their use in the Military and the schools.  There was a nice 11 inch full metric on kijiji Ontario several months back for about $1800

typically if you blink you will miss the deals though.....vicious market out there for the older lathes.....


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## Janger (Oct 21, 2020)

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-other-busin...itish-harrison-lathe-surface-table/1528493751
for example?


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## Brent H (Oct 21, 2020)

@Janger : those are nice beasts as well - just about bought one, and would have if another guy did not accept my offer on the Utilathe


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## Fermic (Oct 21, 2020)

The kijiji link might be taken according to the view counter.

I'll try my best to find any standard modern but I might become impatient and go with any new lathes.


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## trlvn (Oct 22, 2020)

Janger said:


> https://www.kijiji.ca/v-other-busin...itish-harrison-lathe-surface-table/1528493751
> for example?



Wonder why that hasn't been snapped up in the 15 days it has been listed?








One of the pictures seems to show it is (or was) 3 phase at 200-some volts for 1.5 HP.  I wonder if the red plug is feeding a phase converter?  D@mm I wish I had a standalone shop!

Craig
BTW, I got drunk in Heidelburg on a university pub crawl.  I'd like to say I have fond memories...but that day is kind of hazy!


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## YotaBota (Oct 22, 2020)

Have you seen this?
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/st-catharines/metal-lathe-and-saw/1531257724?undefined
There's no pricing and won't be metric but might be worth a call.


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## Brent H (Oct 22, 2020)

@YotaBota , that looks like a newer 11"  might be capable of receiving change gears?  should be a d-4 chuck mount, which is more common- definitely worth the call


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## Fermic (Oct 22, 2020)

There's one good standard modern but they bundled them for 5000 dollars ! http://www.bellmachineryltd.com/used_home_package.html


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## YotaBota (Oct 22, 2020)

I've been in contact with them about the lathe myself. Apparently the the headstock is REALLY noisy and it's not metric, they won't sell them individually. I have an ad here on the forum looking for anyone interested in the milling machine to go in with me.


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## Tom O (Oct 22, 2020)

The Harrison is a nice lathe I bought one from Modern tool ( without tailstock ) for $2500. Back around  94 it came with a hydralic copy attachment, for a tailstock we made a new base and swapped between a Standard Modern lathe. It was only used to make anvils for English wheels.


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## gerritv (Oct 23, 2020)

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/oshawa-durham-region/metal-lathe/1531344110


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## YYCHM (Oct 23, 2020)

gerritv said:


> https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/oshawa-durham-region/metal-lathe/1531344110



Hey, I was just looking at that one.  Looks to be a step up from a mini-lathe.  How much of a step is the question?


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## Fermic (Oct 23, 2020)

Nice find, I have contacted him. Hope he hasn't sold that one.


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## Brent H (Oct 26, 2020)

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/markham-york-region/lathe-harrison/1531743237?undefined

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/london/stanko-metal-lathe/1532150764?undefined  Bigger lathe but would be a great deal!


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## Fermic (Oct 27, 2020)

Hi everyone again, I finally refined my choice of lathe and I have decided the project for the lathe itself too : manual-CNC lathe with parts like in by buying at Grizzly G0602 which costs the price of King Canada 10x22 after duties and custom brokerage.





The G0602 or King Canada is perfectly usable and cost less by omitting the dedicated power feed which in the future I can upgrade their motor with AC Servo, plus parts to turn it into manual CNC Lathe with ballscrews. Details of modifications will be with CNC Lathe Design without drilling to the original lathe and combing the code source with the youtube video, because I can edit the code or pick better hardware for it.

The lathe harrison is going to ask 550V, so I have swap out the motor or use VFD for that. 2nd Kijiji link is sold out.


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## Fermic (Dec 6, 2020)

Update, I just bought Grizzly G0602. It will ship in January 2021, I have time to decide to cancel it. I hope I won't get surprise fees along with duties and taxes.

Something to note, this lathe has recently got the carriage dials, before this Jan 2020 this model did not have it.

Also, I have been reading various books to learn many things : Machine Shop Trade Secrets, Metalworking Doing it right, How to run the metal lathe from south bend.


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## Fermic (Dec 29, 2020)

Things happened and I changed my choice then I did go get a different brand of metal lathe.
Emco Compact 8 with mill head with some missing parts that I will find or rebuild them.

It wasn't easy to carry this lathe downstairs with my father, down there without any broken arm. It sits on a reinforced desk with panels, not anchored down.
The tool post is eh, it works but my 3/8 HSS tooling is sitting far below the center line, I just don't want keep using it. 
So, I am looking any places that sells the quick change tool post Multifix for my lathe.


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## YYCHM (Dec 29, 2020)

What did that set you back for?


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## Fermic (Dec 29, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What did that set you back for?



It was 1500


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