# Milling vise tune up



## John Conroy (Nov 26, 2015)

When I bought my Ferro mill I needed a larger vise than the 4" one I was using on my PM932 mill. You can spend a crazy amount of money for a high end vise and I really wanted a good quality one but that was just out of reach with my budget. I bought the 4" vise at KMS tools and it was pretty good with less than .002" difference in height from end to end and side to side, the jaws were nice and level and parallel. Pretty impressive for a Chinese vise so I bought the same model in a 6" one from KMS for the larger mill. It looked pretty good in the box and the fit and finish looked OK when I got it onto the bench. I made sure the head on the Ferro mill was trammed as well as possible.

http://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/my-30-years-old-mill-is-still-pretty-straight.144/

I checked the bottom of the vise on my surface plate and fixed a couple of divots and high spots with a stone. Then I removed the fixed and moveable jaws and mounted it on the mill table and used an indicator the check the body of the vise for flatness in both directions. What I found was disappointing. It has .007" difference in height from side to side and .0095" from end to end. I milled the top of the body flat with a fly-cutter then mounted the jaws back on it and found that the fixed jaw was ,025" higher than the movable one and top of both jaws were not parallel with the table so I milled those flat also. I used a 2" indexable end mill on the cast iron parts of the jaws and a 1/2" carbide end mill on the hardened steel jaws. I had to machine a total of .010" from the body but that has no effect on the operation of the vise. It is now flat and level in both X and Y directions within .0005". Time will tell if it stays that way. Here some pics of the process I used.


----------



## EricB (Nov 26, 2015)

WOW, that vise was out by a mile! Funny how they clearly stole some styling points from Kurt, but apparently threw the quality in the trash.  I recently picked up a couple of VERY large milling vises off of Kijiji just because they were so cheap I figure I can flip them. I'm going to look into putting them on eBay (never sold anything on eBay before) as-is for a "Buy it now" price and if they don't sell before I find time to fix them up then I'll re-machine and paint them and give it another go.

Nice work!


----------



## PeterT (Nov 28, 2015)

Nice job. Your experience seems to be the random crap shoot results I've read about on other forums, but looks like you have it all tuned up.
- Does the base have one of those alignment notches to rough locate the vise to the mill T-slots? 
- One thing I was not clear on. Even though the top & bottom surfaces are re-finished parallel with the re-milling, I'm assuming the square-ness of the fixed jaw controlled by that key strip [1] & aligning notches & jaw assembly? Did that happen to tram ok when you reassembled, or did you have to work on that part too?
- Are the end fixtures [2] for your own vise stop rod assembly?

Another thing I've read is the jaws themselves can look shiny & ground but can be also be out of whack once removed & measured. Sometimes its a fit thing & sometimes they are just not ground or matched properly. I read some guys retrofitted with Kurt/clone jaws as their Chinese vises was apparently attempting to clone Kurt & the bolt pattern matched. Food for thought especially those V-groove jaws, but they probably cost more than the vise itself! A friend of mine bought this one & it happened to be quite accurate. But maybe it was a lucky Tuesday 10AM model, not a Friday 4PM model.
https://www.accusizetools.com/6-super-lock-precision-c-n-c-machine-vise/

The only thing I don't like about that casting vise style is they gobble up a lot vertical headroom that smaller mills cant accommodate as well by the time you have a part in there & tool mounted in the quill. You have a big machine, so no problem there. I've seen what look to be decent quality low profile Asian clones of what Bison used to produce that are probably 2" lower, but I think a lot more $$. Anyway, good work.


----------



## John Conroy (Nov 29, 2015)

I almost ordered a Glacern vise a couple of weeks ago as they have lowered the price on their 6" one from about $400 down to $275.

https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690

But it's still US dollar and shipping is not cheap for a vise that weighs 75 pounds..

The key strip that locates the rear jaw is dead straight as is the slot for the alignment keys for the table slot so I got lucky there.
 The fixture on the back is for a vise stop that I made up.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 1, 2016)

The Magnum above is for 169CAD at KMS. For 299USD + shipping I would have ordered Glacern on the spot. But now its 399 ;(

I could get the Magnum and true it up as above on my mill - but it is still made of weak casting that wears out easy with standard screw (hardware store) that doesn't promise reputability. Last thing I want to worry about is the Chinese tooling ruining the day again.

Looking for used Kurt or Toolmex or Glacern or event Vertex made in Taiwan. KMS has Vertex VK-6 for 289 but its not a Kurt style - I just asked them for VA-6 Kurt style. For 289 it would be a good deal.

Its amazing how hard it is to get non-China stuff in Canada. You need to import it from the US where they seem to have *everything*. 

Kurt lists for 535USD for D688 new plus shipping. Toolmex 435 new plus shipping. Used Kurts on ebay so far are not a good deal - too close to new price - I rather pay $50 to get a new vs. 10 year old Kurt.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 2, 2016)

I would not have thought a Vertex could be had for that kind of price. I cant speak for the vise but my Vertex dividing seems very accurate & similar feedback from buddy with Vertex rotary table.
I think Vertex are clone geometry of Kurt jaw bolt pattern, but check first. (OTOH Kurt jaws are small fortune so may be a moot point).
Youtube This Old Tony title   *Shoot'n The Poop #2 - Import Vise VA4*.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 2, 2016)

Peter, would you ever believe me that I just watched the video you mentioned like 10min ago? 

The problem with KMS Vertex is that it is old Bridgeport style - i.e. its not Kurt. It looks exactly like the vice on my horizontal mill. I am not sure how good the non-Kurt style works as far as accuracy - opinions out there say that Kurt made all these types obsolete. But if that is so why would anyone still make non-Kurt vises? My knowledge in the topic is lacking. Anyone know?


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 2, 2016)

After nearly a year of using this Magnum vise I've become pretty frustrated with it. The base is changing shape and it is not flat anymore. The Chinese cast iron base will probably stabilize over time but I'm not going to waste anymore time on this piece of crap. I've talked to Matt at Quality Machine Tools, where I bought my first mill, about vises. He speaks very highly of the Homge brand he sells. They are Taiwanese made like Glacern and Vertex and are reported to be very well built and accurate. The 6-8 model has a swivel base and a chip cover and needle thrust bearing for the forcing screw with Acme threads like a Kurt. Matt ships by truck freight, not UPS (Glacern shows the swivel base as an extra cost option and only ships UPS) and shipping is quite reasonable from his warehouse in Pittsburgh. I've been gouged by UPS for their "Customs brokerage fees" in the past and will not deal with them if I don't have to. KBC tool lists the 6" Kurt vise at over $900 cad + shipping right now, the Homge would be about $550 cad shipped. I may order an HAV-6-8 model for myself for an early Christmas gift.

http://machinetoolonline.com/VisesHighPrecision.html


----------



## kylemp (Sep 2, 2016)

I managed to get a gs890 yesterday as part of a deal for a mill. I've only owned relatively shitty vises for milling and I can say this thing acts like a Kurt in so many ways. The capacity is just under 9 inches between inside jaws, and up to 17 or so inches if you have the jaws on the outside. If you can find one for cheap, I'd recommend it. 

The one thing that always tends to be an issue is jaw lift, so that was the first thing I looked for.. Measuring with a .0005" test I literally couldn't see it raise when clamping down. I check it with a part being clamped, just jaw on jaw and cinched down tight but if anything it may have pulled the jaw down. Pretty happy so far.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, the KBC is a total rip off - their prices are totally out of this world. Come on Kurt sells their vises direct for less! The place I am considering is ajax tool supply. They have quite reasonable prices in the US compared to KBC.
Toolmex (Polish) http://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/tmxcnc.html for a 6-8 vise is 434 USD and shipping is 90USD so total is 685CAD. For over 100 more I think it is definitely worth it over Homage. For about 130 cad more you can get a Kurt D688 i.e. for 800+

The UPS brokerage fees are not an issue for me - just hire a third party company to do it. I use Border Bee. Fees are reasonable - similar to the Global Shipping Program fees on eBay. Expect to pay about double GST in brokerage fees so 10% of your purchase. With regular UPS expect to pay a fortune.

Finally GS890 is 10USD cheaper then the Polish vise. However they are made in Taiwan so definitely not as good as Polish vise.

Toolmex is the distributor for Bison Bial (Bialowieza) the late chuck maker. Cannot buy directly from Toolmex as the said I have to be a distributor for them...

Maybe we can workout a deal with two vises shipped freight? Anything over 150lbs has to be freight.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 2, 2016)

Buying direct https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690 is for 399USD. But this vise is made "somewhere". I would expect it to be in line with GS890 quality. Besides we are now talking 10USD up or down.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 2, 2016)

I was eyeing the Toolmex mill vise before landing on the low profile 5" Bison precision vise I found new on ebay. Bison stopped making this vise so they are slowly not as prevalent. You can buy Toolmex through their ebay discount store. (Similar to mine but bigger)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Modular-Prec...943538?hash=item2326ced132:g:pUAAAOxyHslQ5v7k
http://stores.ebay.ca/Toolmex-Online-Outlet-Store?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
Link shows Ajax on ebay & their standard shipping (no extra duties) blurb.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Toolmex-Work...hash=item4846317568:m:mjAO1zX93EOEVRWCP23SZrw

Sowa is another possibility, Canadian distribution for GS & Bison & others. Suspect the prices will be up there, but they do have occasional sale & you always have to figure in all-in costs, exchange, shipping, duty... I ordered some Sowa catalog through DMH in Calgary.
http://www.sowatool.com/Catalogue/9/330?Vise+Type=Machine+Vises


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 2, 2016)

Ajax ships via eBay Global Shipping program (they ship USPS to distribution centre and then Canada Post to you). Its nice program but ... cannot combine shipping. On their website they ship UPS, vise is $10 cheaper (eBay fees) and can combine shipping. NMTB40 tooling of quality is so expensive combined to R8 ;( Grizzly stuff I got is typical "not straight" China.

My UPS invoice for 420CAD shipment is 32CAD... just over 10CAD in brokerage fees... which is like 3cad more then Canada Post... I think its reasonable. Invoice came in 20min ago. More tooling I probably don't need.

I looked at Sowa. Their prices are out there with KBC - 270USD more then from US???? It is still much cheaper to even pay shipping and UPS brokerage. I fail to understand why Canadian companies are doing this price gauging.


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 2, 2016)

Kurt has 10 of their DM688-SD "Metric 6" X 8.8" vises in their scratch and dent sale are for $410 each. This seems like a smoking deal.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/manual-metricvise-150mm-23352mm-opening-p-2884.html

There is also a HD690-SD vise there for $580, this is a nice vise!

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/hd690-p-2883.html

They also are releasing a newDX6  6" vise with an introductory price of $587.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/manual-vise-opening-p-3554.html

The more I think about it the more I am leaning toward a Kurt as their quality is top notch.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 2, 2016)

Some interesting discussion on vise clamping & deflection. Youtube Stefan Gotteswinter Machineshop Physics


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 3, 2016)

Just watched that vid. I'll have to do some measuring of my vise to see how it reacts when loaded. Based on that video it seems that an accurate vise is a myth.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 3, 2016)

Yes, its yet another consideration isn't it. There is 'static' accuracy, how well the surfaces are ground & assembled. Positional accuracy, how its secured to the machine itself. Gripping accuracy, what moves once you tighten the stock into vise. And of course, now you are going to hog away some material & hope its within a thou & the stock doesn't distort after machining  After watching the vid I replicated test on my Bison. I was pleasantly surprised. But if I had not stumbled on it at high price discount, not sure I would have spent the money on the Bison. And if I need parts for it one day, might be SOL. Vises are dang spendy. I hope it lives with me for a long, long time.

I have some of the Chinese (I call them grinding) vises for holding small things in my big vise. I'm going to post some pics of what I did to improve the tightening mechanism, but from an accuracy standpoint they are actually pretty good value. If I had a small milling machine  light cutting duty, personally I would be more inclined to go this route over a heavy cast (but inaccurate) big vise. Stefan seems to get along well with his on similar mill as mine.

Which brings me to ones like this. Another crap shoot, but looks to be knock-offs of Bison & GS style. Not exactly cheap either, but another data point. If only a guy could see it up close & measure it before committing. That's the other PITA thing - vises are heavy so expensive shipping if you decide you want to flip it one day.
https://www.accusizetools.com/1202-1025-6-x-8-cnc-machine-vise-system-matched-vise-bases-0-0004/


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 7, 2016)

That Chinese vise from accusize seems to be a dead nuts copy of a Gerardi vise, and not much cheaper.

http://www.gerardiusa.com/products/workholding/precision-modular-vises/standard


----------



## PeterT (Sep 7, 2016)

There you go. BTW, this Canadian distributer was listed for Gerardi. Don't see prices listed though. Maybe there are others?
http://www.machinerycanada.com/vises/index.php


----------



## PeterT (Sep 7, 2016)

Bizarre
Travers Canada online catalog $1214 FOB wherever
http://www.traverscanada.com/6-milling-vise/p/61-421-260/

Travers ebay store 898 $C or 978$C including shipping/import fees
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GERARDI-3-03...270928?hash=item4b040961d0:g:qKoAAOSwMgdX0Gnv


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 8, 2016)

I got a Kurt D688 from Travers Canada. The invoice price is $602CAD. My CC got charged $632. The first price includes tax of 30CAD = 5% Alberta ... but VISE is shipped from US - not sure whatever a Canadian subsidiary can ship from US in such a way. Anyways if my broker charges me I just ask Travers or Canadian customs for refund of double tax. I still need to figure out the $30 difference - maybe their system is simply so poorly programmed the price changes... Also their shipping email lists 760CAD... I think these guys hired Indian developers in India to do their programming. 

Anyways just touch over 600CAD seems like a good deal for a new Kurt D688.


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 9, 2016)

How did you get that price? Their web site lists it at $792 cad.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Sep 9, 2016)

I am not 100% sure - their website is very buggy and it seems it has charged some people more some less hence why my bank called me to make sure this was not a fraud (I hope they are legit business). I also got 25% labour day discount. Which seems to be advertised only on their US site.


----------



## John Conroy (Sep 9, 2016)

Nice. That's a great price!


----------



## kylemp (Sep 9, 2016)

I was just at modern, they actually stock Vertex there. I think the price was 830? I've attached the picture of the display one.


----------



## PeterT (Sep 9, 2016)

Re Travers, had a similar incident. Was looking for a Mitutoyo vernier while back & trying to avoid clones. Travers was price X even with a discount. I checked around, saw it cheaper on Amazon.ca, they specified made in Japan/legit etc. So placed the order.  Then when the invoice came through it said 'fulfilled by Travers'. Go figure. Dopplegangers I guess.

I suspect you may well have benefitted by US sale occurring same time & that's a good strategy. It is common that Travers & KBC fulfill some their CDN orders from US locations, I see that all the time - partial orders dribbling in from here & there. You still pay the one flat shipping per order though. What they do behind the scenes to fulfill the order & any internal customs stuff, their system takes care of. One caveat of the flat ship charge is heavy stuff, but that also applies to items in stock in Canada & usually they tell you that up front.


----------



## Tcwheels (Jul 18, 2018)

Tom Kitta said:


> Buying direct https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690 is for 399USD. But this vise is made "somewhere". I would expect it to be in line with GS890 quality. Besides we are now talking 10USD up or down.


Vise is made in Taiwan. We get Vises from same factory and stock in TO


----------



## Tcwheels (Jul 18, 2018)

John Conroy said:


> I almost ordered a Glacern vise a couple of weeks ago as they have lowered the price on their 6" one from about $400 down to $275.
> 
> https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690
> 
> ...


We import the same vise under our brand name Acuratool at Mavhinery Canada. Stock in TO.


----------



## Jwest7788 (Jul 18, 2018)

One idea, I know amazon alerts sellers when users add items to their wishlist. Why don't we all pop over to:
https://www.amazon.ca/Glacern-GSV-6...e=UTF8&qid=1531928645&sr=8-2&keywords=glacern

And add the item to a wishlist. Maybe if enough of us do it, Glacern will re-stock it there?

JW


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jul 18, 2018)

US Amazon.com indicates its in stock but for 499 USD vs. 579 for latest model of Kurt D6.
https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690 indicates price of 399. Which is inline with Amazon 499 (shipping + other costs == $100)

Looks like the sale you talk about is over. 

If they add it to Amazon.ca the price will be around 499USD ==> CAD which is around $660 or more. Remember "free shipping" is not exactly... free. Also if amazon does it they charge handling fee as well as shelf space fee per month in addition to a fee for using amazon. 

To ship "cheaper" from the US one method is to ship to Canadian border, pay around $7 (or $10) USD handling then pay about $20 CAD + GST border fee and then $10 CAD to get it to Calgary. 

For $275 USD it would be a great deal - that is only 362 CAD & with cheapest shipping should not be more than 460CAD for a great vise... new.


----------



## kevin.decelles (Jul 18, 2018)

I've got a shars 4" vise at the border, using Dyk post to bring to calgary. Should have it today, I'll post actual shipping costs once I know

Really liking Dyk post, not cheap but damn professional and convenient




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kevin.decelles (Jul 18, 2018)

For anyone interested, Shars 440v CNC milling vise,  approx. 31lbs shipping weight.

Cost 250USD - 10% 4th July coupon = 225 USD
UPS to border (Montana Mailbox) ~40USD.  No free shipping -- I waited several months

DYK Post to Calgary:  56.01 CDN
     20 Brokerage
     10 DYK Transportation (based on weight)
      2  Disbersement fee (for paying my montana mailbox fee)
    6.08  Montana mailbox warehouse fee
14.82   Taxes
  0.96   Fuel Surcharge (DYK)
  1.65   GST (on DYK fees)


No duty.

As an aside, I debated long and hard about getting the Glacern vs. the Kurt (the new DX4) vs. local (limited 4" options).  After taking machining course at SAIT this spring, and running a Kurt as well as a an off-brand, realized that I probably wouldn't benefit from the difference.  Instructor also said that for the hobbyist, the Kurt is a luxury.  Decided to test the Shars product/delivery/cost experience and if survivable, I would go back for the dividing head.........


----------



## Tcwheels (Jul 18, 2018)

Can offer our Acuratools ATD460  4” Vise for $375.00 Net CAD better than Shars products in my opinion. Shipping from Toronto.
Tim @ Machinery Canada


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jul 18, 2018)

Let me know how Shars works out. I bought few months ago a used Shars older double vise 6" but have not yet tried it out beyond freeing it and greasing it. It will go onto my old horizontal mill. I plan to use it as either double or a super large capacity single (12"). 

I disagree that a Kurt or Toolmex or Orange visa is a luxury for a hobbyist. I use a vise in 99% of machining operations (I usually don't need to use the table clamping or rotary) I want to get something that works superbly all the time, every time without second guessing myself.


----------



## Janger (Jul 19, 2018)

Tcwheels said:


> Can offer our Acuratools ATD460  4” Vise for $375.00 Net CAD better than Shars products in my opinion. Shipping from Toronto.
> Tim @ Machinery Canada


Got a link Tim?


----------



## kevin.decelles (Jul 19, 2018)

Janger said:


> Got a link Tim?



Tim, I queried the brand, the model # etc and little nothing came back. As a consumer, lack of product info, testimonial, video etc is concerning

I think that is why brands like glacern, Kurt, shars, and others get traction

If you are open minded u could ship one this way for the group to evaluate

I am just beginning my journey into milling but others here could really give it a shake down


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tcwheels (Jul 19, 2018)

Just trying to help put. Old school veteran to the biz 41 years at it and counting. Not counting the child labor in back shop with my late father. Also trying to finish a new PDF on my Vises to put up on our website. Also working on a new web store for both my companies we own. Machinery Canada and Techleader Tooling in the USA. Allot of my biz comes from referrals because they use my knowledge and frankness to help people out.
I could attach my rough PDF if I knew how. If you wish to send me a email at tcwheels@bell.net I can send it to you.


----------



## RobinHood (Jul 19, 2018)

Hi Tim, it could be because you are a new member. There are a certain minimum #of posts you have to have before you can attach files/pictures. I’m sure Admin will chime in to confirm.
Once you are “cleared” it will be under “attach files”, browse, pick the location where you have the pdf stored on your device, upload it, attach it, post it and you should be successful.


----------

