# My old mill drill needs some work



## Susquatch (Sep 4, 2021)

Back when I was looking for a good knee mill, I posted a few things about my old mill drill.

It's a bench top round post model with no real z axis other than the quill. The head can be cranked up and down a fair bit to gain working space but totally loses x&y in the process so fairly useless for in-process milling.

I've actually done a fair bit of work with it over the years and it came with some pretty cool MT3 tooling that I will probably sell in order to get R8 equivalents. It has a crude but very functional power x feed, and a really nice 8.5x36 table with odd-ball 1/2" slots for 1/2" nuts and Bolts. No, that's not a brain fart. Normally, you would see 5/8 slots with 1/2" Bolts. This one really is half and half!

As discussed during my mill search, it's biggest problem is the flaky x/y axis graduations on the leade screws. The crank wheels have 22 graduations on them marked as 0 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10, then starting over at 0.   Yes, you read that correctly. There really is both a 10 and a zero. As a result, each turn of the crank is 110 thou, not 100.






It's not exactly 110 though, I believe it's actually 111.111111. And in truth, using a dial indicator on the table, the numbers do grow by just over a thou per revolution.

In the previous thread on finding a decent mill, forum members speculated that the mill might have been metric once upon a time. But I don't think so.

I measured the two lead screws very carefully. They are both regular 60° threads on a 7/8 rod. And it just so happens that the normal course thread for a 7/8 bolt is 9 tpi. And 9tpi is exactly.. 0.1111... pitch between threads.

So that mystery is solved. The leade screws are 7/8-9 regular 60° thread and they are probably just plain old ready rod.

In order to sell the mill drill with some integrity, I feel like I pretty much have to replace the leade screws with proper ACME screws in SAE 10tpi or 2mm Metric. If I can't find the right combo of screws and nuts, I'll make them. It's either that or outright give it away.

If anyone has any advice on how to go about all the above, or things you don't agree with, I'd love to hear about it.

The other thing is a proper ID on the mill/drill (make, model, etc) or even where to find that info. That would be much appreciated. Here are some photos.

Anybody recognize the old girl? Or even her bones.


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## PeterT (Sep 4, 2021)

Many opt to install an Asian DRO system which are getting very cheap these days & solve most of these problems simultaneously: odd duck pitch threads and/or dials, backlash discrepancies, table lock secondary movement, mental math errors turning dials, resetting collars, inch/metric conversion, bolt hole patterns, center finding.... etc. Whether the machine & your time & expense are worth it, is really up to you. This assumes your leadscrew is in good shape of course, just odd.

I wouldn't suggest necessarily buying from this site but they have lots of sample installation pics
https://www.dropros.com/


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## Susquatch (Sep 4, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Many opt to install an Asian DRO system which are getting very cheap these days & solve most of these problems simultaneously: odd duck pitch threads and/or dials, backlash discrepancies, table lock secondary movement, mental math errors turning dials, resetting collars, inch/metric conversion, bolt hole patterns, center finding.... etc. Whether the machine & your time & expense are worth it, is really up to you. This assumes your leadscrew is in good shape of course, just odd.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest necessarily buying from this site but they have lots of sample installation pics
> https://www.dropros.com/



I hadnt seen that site before. Lots of good info there. 

I have thought about installing an x/y DRO system. If I keep it and use it as drill press, I might do that. I have an old Beaver floor stand drill press I might sell instead. 

The problem is that my mill drill is prolly only worth 200 as is and maybe 400 with new leade screws. I suppose someone might pay more for it with a set of DROs but I'm guessing that would turn into a bit of a sales job and I'm simply far too honest to be a decent salesman. 

Obviously, I could be wrong about all that but my observation is that DROs seem to come free with the used machine if they have them. 

If I were to keep it, I'd prolly just do that and be done with it though. The backlash and gibbs on the mill/drill are in pretty good shape but there are no axis locks on it as is. I could turn one of the Gibb screws on each axis into a T-Handle style lock though. 

So I dunno, it doesn't seem like that's an economical way to go.


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## Janger (Sep 4, 2021)

It’s worth more than that! I would not be too concerned about the gradations. I agree with Pete a DRO would solve that and not cost too much. There are igaging ones that might run $100ish . Look on busybee.

what does the forum think the mill might be worth? $500 or $1000 I might think?


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## YYCHM (Sep 4, 2021)

Power feeds alone run $200 and that style of power feed even more.

@Susquatch what size is the motor?


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## phaxtris (Sep 4, 2021)

id put a dro on that baby and call it a day, pretty cheap on ali express


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## DPittman (Sep 4, 2021)

Janger said:


> It’s worth more than that! I would not be too concerned about the gradations. I agree with Pete a DRO would solve that and not cost too much. There are igaging ones that might run $100ish . Look on busybee.
> 
> what does the forum think the mill might be worth? $500 or $1000 I might think?


I'd pay $500 for something like that easy but I think the *real* market would pay double that without too much difficulty.  I've seen much worse advertised the last couple of years for quite a bit more than that.


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## trlvn (Sep 5, 2021)

I see "S" and "F" on the motor...is it 2-speed?  Do you know if it is original to the machine?

I've never seen this design before.  It is sort of like an RF-30 but not really.  Motor mounted above the top pulley. Only 4 belt speeds, right?  Different quill lock and fine feed.  Appear to be metal handles whereas all the Asian machines I've seen have plastic.  Did it used to have a magnetic starter?

Do you know how old the machine is?  Is it a predecessor to the RF-30?

Craig


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

@YYCHM - I don't know what size motor it is. Definitely sub 1hp. Maybe 1/4? There is no data plate. Best I could do is measure amps but the results of that measurement are very load dependant so I'm not sure it's warranted. 

@phaxtris - I want to look into DROs for my two bigger mills Bridgeport Varidrive and Hartford Bridgeport pulley drive Clone. I will look at DROs for all three mills and maybe my lathe too. But I'm not holding my breath at that being affordable or even wise for the mill drill. 

@DPittman - I believe I paid 300 for it 8 years ago. So 500 would be awesome. Prolly a fair price too given that I made a new sector gear for the head vertical and repaired the crank handle that both work great now. 

@trlvn - You are correct, it's a two speed (non-reversing) 110V motor. I do not believe it's original though since all the electrical is residential stuff. Technically, there are more than four speeds because there are two belts on it and one can be moved without moving the other. I've never moved them though because it's a total PIA. The two speed motor has met all my needs. The table is clearly marked 1982. Seems about right for what is there. I don't know if it was ever capacitor start. There is nothing there now. 

I took a few more photos. Maybe they will help.


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

Janger said:


> It’s worth more than that! I would not be too concerned about the gradations. I agree with Pete a DRO would solve that and not cost too much. There are igaging ones that might run $100ish . Look on busybee.
> 
> what does the forum think the mill might be worth? $500 or $1000 I might think?



24" IGaging DRO for $70.....  Seems WAY TOO GOOD to be true....... 

Ya, each axis has its own readout, but big deal. They could always be stacked on a common display board. 

But seriously, $70 in Canada? It is REALLY hard to believe. 

But if they work, at that price, you are correct - it seems like a no brainer to me too. Looks like they even have an install kit of sorts.


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> 24" IGaging DRO for $70.....  Seems WAY TOO GOOD to be true.......
> 
> Ya, each axis has its own readout, but big deal. They could always be stacked on a common display board.
> 
> ...



You can probable get a 2 axis full function DRO with scales for $200 on AliExpress.  Then you get all the DRO functionality (center function, bolt patterns etc).  I had IGaging DROs on my lathe that I had to remove in order to make my follower rest.  I have no desire to re-install them.  Ya, they work but not great, IMHO, battery powered to boot, 2 batteries per display no less.

HXX DRO Set 3 Axis Magnetic Linear Scale Encoder With Digital Readout Digital Readout Display For Mill Lathe Machine|Level Measuring Instruments| - AliExpress

Jeepers..... where the heck was that deal hiding when I was looking for one.


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## PeterT (Sep 5, 2021)

Not taking anything away from the uniqueness of the machine, its similar to other knee-less round post mills in that whenever you raise or lower the head, you have likely gone off course relative to the preceding XY position on the work. Lots of fixes have been proposed & executed on similar RF style mills, usually involving some outboard stabilizing arms. So having a DRO with 0.0001" readout doesn't really solve that particular issue if the head is wandering (I really don't know +/- 0.050" ?). I guess as long as the head position was locked & all the Z movement was confined to quill displacement it might still be worthwhile. I find that's rarely the case, tool stickout distance varies so much just swapping ordinary tools.


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

I hear you @PeterT. Frankly, I think you are GROSSLY underestimating the x/y movement (Esp x). I'd guess more like an inch or two....... Its not designed for that. Once you crank it to whatever working Height you want, you lock it down with two HUGE Bolts (see right side photo above with special bolt tool attached), and then it doesn't move. All working Height changes are then made with the quill and fine tuned with the quill wheel. The two quill movement methods are interlocked. It's one or the other, not both. 

In my experience, once the head is locked, it never moves. So the x/y/z work just fine thereafter. That said, the rigidity is pretty poor so you would never take heavy cuts anyway. 

Tool swaps seem to be fine for me unless they are major. You can't go from a big mill to a little one or from the drill chuck to anything else. That's probably what you meant though. I'm gunna take a look at the DRO that @YYCHM suggested above. Who knows!


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> You can probable get a 2 axis full function DRO with scales for $200 on AliExpress.  Then you get all the DRO functionality (center function, bolt patterns etc).  I had IGaging DROs on my lathe that I had to remove in order to make my follower rest.  I have no desire to re-install them.  Ya, they work but not great, IMHO, battery powered to boot, 2 batteries per display no less.
> 
> HXX DRO Set 3 Axis Magnetic Linear Scale Encoder With Digital Readout Digital Readout Display For Mill Lathe Machine|Level Measuring Instruments| - AliExpress
> 
> Jeepers..... where they heck was that deal hiding when I was looking for one.



I'd actually like to jump on that deal for my mills, my lathe, and my mill/drill. But I can't find specifications like working length and precision. The display only shows thousandths yet its called high precision.

I do use tenths on my lathe but probably wouldn't on my mill. Still, with digital systems, you need to be able to see tenths to know which thousandth you are working with - otherwise, it could be rounding up or down and you have no idea which.

It's a great deal price wise, but not so great if it doesn't fit or work properly.

Am I missing something?

Ps - "Jeepers". Brings back memories of the home farm in Saskatchewan. All the ladies used that word instead of the ones the guys used....... Nobody says Jeepers out east here.


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I'd actually like to jump on that deal for my mills, my lathe, and my mill/drill. But I can't find specifications like working length and precision. The display only shows thousandths yet its called high precision.
> 
> I do use tenths on my lathe but probably wouldn't on my mill. Still, with digital systems, you need to be able to see tenths to know which thousandth you are working with - otherwise, it could be rounding up or down and you have no idea which.
> 
> ...



The IGaging DROs only display to x.xxx.  My mill DRO displays to x.xxxx and I hate that last digit.  It's always fluttering around due to vibration.  Locking the table or quill shifts it.  I don't find that last digit particularly useful at all.

A 3000 lb Bridgeport might not have that issue but you drill/mill will.  The scales for the AliExpress unit are 5 Micron. Sometimes the precision on the DRO display is programable, I wish mine was.


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> The IGaging DROs only display to x.xxx.  My mill DRO displays to x.xxxx and I hate it.  The last digit is always fluttering around due to vibration.  Locking the table or quill shifts it.  I don't find that last digit particularly useful at all.



Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I don't find the tenths all that useful either. But I do find thousandths useful. The problem with digital readouts is that they show thousandths, but you don't really know if that has been rounded up or down. So even though they show thousandths, it's really +/- 2 thou.  Even though the tenths is jumping around, it at least tells which thou it actually is. 

Maybe look at it this way. With an analog 0.001 DTI, you do the rounding yourself by looking at which line the indicator pointer is closest to and you know if it's above or below. 

With digital, you are at the mercy of the programmer who might be rounding, averaging, or truncating. 

So, all that said, do you think the readouts on those DROs might be metric?


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## YYCHM (Sep 5, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> So, all that said, do you think the readouts on those DROs might be metric?



Inch/mm is programable at the push of a button, so you're probably right about the image only showing 3 digits due to it being in mm mode.


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## phaxtris (Sep 5, 2021)

the cheap dro i have from ali-express shows 4 decimal places, thats ten thousandths...so you could round either way you wanted and still be just as accurate as a thousandths dial gauge

myne changes from metric to imperial with a push of a button, although i would suppose the scales are most likely metric and there is a conversion going to an imperial display

when i ordered myne the seller messaged me for the lengths of the scales i needed, and sent the appropriate ones, any wrong length was my own fault 

as for the fitment....thats on you to figure out, i think most dro's are that way


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## Susquatch (Sep 5, 2021)

phaxtris said:


> the cheap dro i have from ali-express shows 4 decimal places, thats ten thousandths...so you could round either way you wanted and still be just as accurate as a thousandths dial gauge
> 
> myne changes from metric to imperial with a push of a button, although i would suppose the scales are most likely metric and there is a conversion going to an imperial display
> 
> ...



This was all solid gold! Thank you @phaxtris! That explains why I can't choose the length! 

I doubt the basic info is metric or SAE. It's probably just a digital count of some kind with no units at all. I'd bet that it is most likely a count of accumulated events of some kind. That's how most digital systems work. For display purposes, the program in the DRO control box converts that digital quantity into metric or SAE distances according to the status of the metric/SAE switch. 

That's what I was getting at earlier when I said that the device programmer decides how to calculate the display. Programmers are seldom engineers and even more rarely machinists. And that's where the problems begin. 

But hey, this coming week, I'll measure my machines and then order a few systems! 

Thank you again!


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## phaxtris (Sep 5, 2021)

You are welcome

I don't mean to argue but I believe you are mistaken about imperial/metric scales. Most of the Asian dro's I have seen have a 5 micron resolution, the glass scales inside the linear encoder (scale) need to have graduations at a specific distance to be of any use, given the resolution of being exactly 5 microns and not some round imperial measurement would lead me to believe fhe scales are graduated in metric....making the scales effectively metric


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## whydontu (Sep 5, 2021)

info. Search for TouchDRO, Yuri’s Toys, DROPros. They can give operational details / signal parameters.

My lathe and mill setups are from TheDROStore.com. I’ve had very good results. I tried the iGaging units, and converting digital calipers, and they suck. My experience was the iGaging units had about 0.002” hysteresis. Worse was their complete lack of shielding, both electrically and mechanically. Unshielded USB cables don’t like electrical pulses when I started my table saw when the iGaging units were powered up. They couldn't survive any sort of electrical noise. Plastic insulation on USB cables don’t handle hot chips very well.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

phaxtris said:


> You are welcome
> 
> I don't mean to argue but I believe you are mistaken about imperial/metric scales. Most of the Asian dro's I have seen have a 5 micron resolution, the glass scales inside the linear encoder (scale) need to have graduations at a specific distance to be of any use, given the resolution of being exactly 5 microns and not some round imperial measurement would lead me to believe fhe scales are graduated in metric....making the scales effectively metric



I see! But, I think we are both right. It's great to be Canadian. We can debate such things without getting angry with each other. That's why I prefer to use the word debate instead of argue. And no worries - I take no offense from anyone who takes the time to debate anything with me. As Thomas Edison once said: "Time is our most precious quantity because time is the stuff life is made of." Anyone who is willing to give me a part of their life by debating with me has my total respect and gratitude. Please allow me to return the favour.

By your definition, counting microns makes the unit metric because microns are a metric unit - specifically 1 millionth of a meter. And I agree, if counting a metric unit means that they are metric, then they are metric.

But I believe it's actually much more complicated than that.

Metric is a system that uses a number base of 10.  0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13, etc. For distances, each time you get to 10 you bump the preceding digit and each additional number is another magnitude.

However, ALL digital systems use a numbering system that is binary. In fact, it is this binary numbering system that gives it the moniker "digital". In binary, the same sequence as above is 0 1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 1001 1010 1011 1100 1101, etc. Note that decimal 10 is the same as binary 1010.

So, even though the system actually does count a metric unit. It doesn't count those units in metric, it counts them in binary and then the program in the control unit runs a subroutine that converts that binary count into a decimal or SAE number for display purposes.

It might seem odd to go to such crazy lengths to count a metric quantity in binary and then convert it back to metric for display, but that is the essence of how all computers work. It's also what makes humans so amazing and computers so fast.

As an aside, the metric decimal system is great because it is a global standard. But I wish that we humans had skipped our thumbs and only used our fingers when we started counting. Then we would have developed an octal instead of decimal numbering system. Why? Because unlike decimal which requires a rather complicated subroutine to convert binary to decimal, octal is a perfect multiple of binary. The subroutine although still required, becomes very simple.

Anyway, all that is to say that you are certainly right at the most basic level. If the measured quantity is a micron (and it is certainly advertised that way) then I agree that its a metric system at its core.

But I would also make the claim that we are actually both right because the core unit or increment gets lost in the binary digital counting process and only converted from binary to the desired metric or SAE system in the final algorithm that drives the display.

Cool eh!

Edit - on a separate matter, it's also worth noting that 5 microns is just under 2 tenths of a thou. So the 4th digit of an SAE display (tenths) isn't really of any true value other than ensuring that the 3rd digit (thousandth) is more likely to be correct regardless of whether the programmer averaged, rounded, or truncated the result. As @YYCHM has pointed out - other than that, the 4th place is a pretty useless digit.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

whydontu said:


> info. Search for TouchDRO, Yuri’s Toys, DROPros. They can give operational details / signal parameters.
> 
> My lathe and mill setups are from TheDROStore.com. I’ve had very good results. I tried the iGaging units, and converting digital calipers, and they suck. My experience was the iGaging units had about 0.002” hysteresis. Worse was their complete lack of shielding, both electrically and mechanically. Unshielded USB cables don’t like electrical pulses when I started my table saw when the iGaging units were powered up. They couldn't survive any sort of electrical noise. Plastic insulation on USB cables don’t handle hot chips very well.



That's very interesting! 

I can easily see why all that would be true. I have to wonder where the thedrostore gets their hardware. 

You have certainly convinced me that the Igaging stuff is out. 

I have to admit that I laughed right out loud when I read your line about hysteresis. The insult of all insults. As you have noted, digital systems have backlash too! 

But now you have me wondering. The latest dro technology is magnetic. I don't know how it works, but it seems to have a fairly long translation system between the parts. I would think that would translate into hysteresis too...... I wonder how much?


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## whydontu (Sep 6, 2021)

Quick-n-dirty:
iGaging are capacitive sensors, Cheap to build, sensitive to electrical noise and dust. Easy to cut to length. Last a couple of years, and replacing batteries is a pain. I built a Shumatech DRO-350 controller to get around the battery compliant, but overall the capacitive scales are just not ready for prime time.
Glass scales are optical, reading very finely engraved lines on a glass plate. A bit fragile, difficult to cut to length. Immune to electrical interference. When properly installed will survive coolant and dust. The glass scales we have on our big Webster Bennet (54” swing”) boring mill are 30 years old. The scales have outlived a couple of display units.
Mag scales use sensors and a track with alternating N and S magnetic poles. Small, easy to cut to length, coolant proof. Dust-sensitive.I don’t have any experience with these.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

whydontu said:


> Quick-n-dirty:
> iGaging are capacitive sensors, Cheap to build, sensitive to electrical noise and dust. Easy to cut to length. Last a couple of years, and replacing batteries is a pain. I built a Shumatech DRO-350 controller to get around the battery compliant, but overall the capacitive scales are just not ready for prime time.
> Glass scales are optical, reading very finely engraved lines on a glass plate. A bit fragile, difficult to cut to length. Immune to electrical interference. When properly installed will survive coolant and dust. The glass scales we have on our big Webster Bennet (54” swing”) boring mill are 30 years old. The scales have outlived a couple of display units.
> Mag scales use sensors and a track with alternating N and S magnetic poles. Small, easy to cut to length, coolant proof. Dust-sensitive.I don’t have any experience with these.



I see. All new to me for machining, but totally within my external experience with other sensors. I'll guess the new mag stuff is sort of like a magnetic storage disk. The read heads for that are dirt cheap and very reliable. Why not ride on those coat-tails! 

Especially great to know this. I'll have to stop using a big magnet to clean out steel chips in my oil pan......


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## Tom O (Sep 6, 2021)

The magnetic scales are a lot thinner too so you don’t lose as much travel when mounted on the Y behind the table. I have a BB 601 with DRO Pro’s mill unit that gives me 4 axises although three read outs putting the quill in play accurately.


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## YYCHM (Sep 6, 2021)

Tom O said:


> The magnetic scales are a lot thinner too so you don’t lose as much travel when mounted on the Y behind the table. I have a BB 601 with DRO Pro’s mill unit that gives me 4 axises although three read outs putting the quill in play accurately.



A 4 Axis DRO? What the heck do you instrument for the 4th axis? We need a pic of that please.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

@Tom O - I would especially love to see how you did the quill!


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## Tom O (Sep 6, 2021)

I’ll make a vid and put it up.


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## whydontu (Sep 6, 2021)

My BB CT129 has four readouts. X, Y, Z on column, & quill. Quill DRO came factory stock, X & Y are TheDROStore, Z column is an iGaging unit with remote readout. Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor. My BB B2227 lathe has X & Y using TheDROStore scales & display. Maybe $900 total for all the electronics for both machines. Well worth it.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

whydontu said:


> My BB CT129 has four readouts. X, Y, Z on column, & quill. Quill DRO came factory stock, X & Y are TheDROStore, Z column is an iGaging unit with remote readout. Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor. My BB B2227 lathe has X & Y using TheDROStore scales & display. Maybe $900 total for all the electronics for both machines. Well worth it.



I have little doubt about the value of a DRO on my Bridgeport & Hartford Mills. And I'm pretty sure I'd like to add it to my lathe too. But I'm not convinced yet about the ROI for my old mill/drill whatever make/model it is. To be honest though, I am also worried that I might like it too much and then want to keep it and get rid of my old beaver drill press instead. The drill press has side bearings in it and I have used it for crude milling before I got the mill/drill. Too many BIG tools with overlapping purposes - some have to go.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

whydontu said:


> Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor.



This is another thing that I think would be very useful. I have a hand held ir tach that I have used to measure speeds. It is apparent that the charts and readouts on the mills are just wrong. Often out by 50%.  I can use the handheld anytime I want, but the convenience of a continuous readout right on the machine is hard to beat. 

Too bad the DROs don't already have that feature built in. It would have been easy to do.


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## whydontu (Sep 6, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> This is another thing that I think would be very useful. I have a hand held ir tach that I have used to measure speeds. It is apparent that the charts and readouts on the mills are just wrong. Often out by 50%.  I can use the handheld anytime I want, but the convenience of a continuous readout right on the machine is hard to beat.
> 
> Too bad the DROs don't already have that feature built in. It would have been easy to do.



Some of the better DROs have tachometer and touch sensor interfaces. I'm just too cheap to buy them that way. Arduino tach cost maybe $30 to build and kept me amused for a few days hunched over a soldering iron. Electronic edge finder works on every machine. Learning rudimentary Arduino programming reminds me of learning BASIC programming back in the 70s.


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## YYCHM (Sep 6, 2021)

My solution to instrumenting RPM






I made that chart up using a hand held optical tach.

I think some VFDs let you program reference points in and display RPM rather than HZ.


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## Susquatch (Sep 6, 2021)

Hmmmm, Arduino eh....... seems the ocean around your neck of the woods runs deep  ........

I did machine and then assembly language programming on microprocessors and Fortran on mainframes before basic arrived. When the CPM operating system made a compiled language like basic possible, it was love at first byte. Sooooo easy! Sooooo friendly! Sooooo much faster than doing raw code.

I have a drawer full of 8748 single chip microcontroller processors gathering dust that would certainly work to do RPM.

I don't suppose you used the Basic Stamp before the Arduino? The programming language used was even more like basic (hence the name) and you can still buy them. I have a few of those in that same drawer. In my opinion, they can't do what an Arduino can, but they are still very cool.

Sadly, you can prolly buy multipurpose tachometers for $15 or so today........ (Insert pouting face here). They are no fun, but if I am honest with myself, I've had more than my share of fun in years gone by.

Regarding that ocean - it's amazing what we have all been part of isn't it?  Yet here I am today, repairing a mill, and learning to use it in my 70s. I hope I never stop learning. Life is sooooo wonderful!

For now, I've done exactly what @YYCHM did. Except my chart is handwritten instead of typed and mine has two columns - one for for hi speed and one for low. My priority is getting both my mills working to facilitate a decision on which one to keep. But I'm sure there is a tach in my future somewhere.


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## whydontu (Sep 6, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmm, Arduino eh....... seems the ocean around your neck of the woods runs deep  ........
> 
> I did machine and then assembly language programming on microprocessors and Fortran on mainframes before basic arrived. When the CPM operating system made a compiled language like basic possible, it was love at first byte. Sooooo easy! Sooooo friendly! Sooooo much faster than doing raw code.
> 
> ...


 
My start was a RCA 1802 with 256 bytes of RAM, from a Popular Electronics article. Geez, we’re old. 

I never got into using the Basic Stamp stuff, too expensive. An Arduino Nano is $8. I found myself designing protection circuitry for the Arduino devices I built, until I realized the protection chips cost more than the processor.

Buying is no fun, unless you have unlimited funds and just like shopping.

 The first thing I did with my original Atlas lathe was to fix a broken rotor shaft on a $0.49 toy helicopter. A couple of hours work and it was good as new and my pre-school son was happy.  Perhaps not the most cost-effective use of my time.


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## YYCHM (Sep 6, 2021)

whydontu said:


> My start was a RCA 1802 with 256 bytes of RAM, from a Popular Electronics article. Geez, we’re old.



LOL..... Tell me about it.  I worked with DG RTOS and RDOS SCADA systems, NOVA and ECLIPSE stuff, as in boot strap loader switches on the front panel  and wire wrap peripheral connection board.  512K on a 14" disk pack and 8" floppy disk drives.  All assembler programed with the most horrible line/character editor.  Move R1 to R3, shift R3 left twice kind of stuff.  Spent many a hour studying data scope captures and reverse engineering data protocols.

Must have changed company ownership a dozen times in my 30 years of SCADA programing.

My hat goes off to the micro processor guys though... many a late night a most ungodly cry would come out of the micro dept.  Probably because their fix or feature overflowed the chip.


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## whydontu (Sep 6, 2021)

or they let out the magic smoke


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## Susquatch (Sep 7, 2021)

whydontu said:


> I never got into using the Basic Stamp stuff, too expensive. An Arduino Nano is $8.



Yes, the stamps are expensive today. But back when Parallax got going with the stamp, they were the only game in town with everything already on the board. IMHO, they were cheap for what you got back then. That's why I wondered if you had used them before the Arduino.


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## phaxtris (Sep 7, 2021)

I always thought stamps were a way over priced, you could buy a 10$ pic and add 5$ worth of components and have a far more capable controller

However I was also a poor highschool student at the time


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## Susquatch (Sep 7, 2021)

phaxtris said:


> I always thought stamps were a way over priced, you could buy a 10$ pic and add 5$ worth of components and have a far more capable controller
> 
> However I was also a poor highschool student at the time



What you say is true. And normally I'm on that page. In fact, I have to swallow real hard before I say what I'm about to say...... But others say it all the time and actually mean it! 

"It is important to consider the value of your own time......" In my mind at that time, having just left the dark ages of months of machine and assembly language, being able to program in basic was AMAZING and worth every penny! 

Anyway, that isn't my nature. I'm basically on the same page as you guys. In fact, if I wasn't on that page there would be a brand new mill in my shop right now instead of 2 old girls that needed to be fixed and still don't work right.


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## Susquatch (Sep 7, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> HXX DRO Set 3 Axis Magnetic Linear Scale Encoder With Digital Readout Digital Readout Display For Mill Lathe Machine|Level Measuring Instruments| - AliExpress



I can't seem to figure out how to talk to these guys. There is a chat button on the web site, but nobody is home. Do I chat anyway and wait for tomorrow to come?


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## phaxtris (Sep 7, 2021)

@Susquatch

Just order it and the seller will message you, that's how it has worked for everything I've ordered on Ali express with some kind of option

Edit: And if the don't...cancel the order


As for the time is money, I fully agree, if it was between a stamp and a pic now days I would probabaly buy a stamp....but i don't make 5$ an hour these days


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## Tom O (Sep 7, 2021)

Here is a video for it one thing I didn't mention was there is a guide supporting it under the cover.


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## Janger (Sep 7, 2021)

Omg we’re all IT geeks


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## Susquatch (Sep 7, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Here is a video for it one thing I didn't mention was there is a guide supporting it under the cover.



Thanks @Tom O! 

Pretty Damn Cool! I'm impressed!

I'd like to do 4 axis for whichever mill I keep too. 

I'd also like to do three axis on my lathe but I am totally lost on how to do that on my compound.


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## Tom O (Sep 7, 2021)

Not by a long shot it took me 3 tries to upload I haven't used Pinnacle Studio in probably 2 years!


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## Tom O (Sep 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Thanks @Tom O!
> 
> Pretty Damn Cool! I'm impressed!
> 
> ...



Another thing I left out is by pressing enter again it shows all 3 axis still using the quill.


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## YYCHM (Sep 7, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Another thing I left out is by pressing enter again it shows all 3 axis still using the quill.



I'm betting that DRO has the option to combine the column scale and quill scale into the Z-Axis readout without having to push any buttons every time.  It's called lathe function in my manual.  I take it your DRO display unit has 4 input ports on it?


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I can't seem to figure out how to talk to these guys. There is a chat button on the web site, but nobody is home. Do I chat anyway and wait for tomorrow to come?





YYCHM said:


> HXX DRO Set 3 Axis Magnetic Linear Scale Encoder With Digital Readout Digital Readout Display For Mill Lathe Machine|Level Measuring Instruments| - AliExpress





phaxtris said:


> Just order it and the seller will message you, that's how it has worked for everything I've ordered on Ali express with some kind of option
> 
> Edit: And if the don't...cancel the order



I have not purchased yet because I had some questions about the product. So I haven't done as you guys have recommended yet. 

However, I had already tried the chat option as I had suggested earlier. That actually did work. I guess you just have to wait for their business hours...... No idea why they call it "chat". It's actually a lot more like "message". 

I told them what I was looking for and asked some questions. I guess we will see how it all works tonight when they get back to work.....


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Here is a video for it one thing I didn't mention was there is a guide supporting it under the cover.



What you did is awesome. But sadly, I don't think that will work on any of my mills. There is no internal or external, access to anything on the quill except at the nose piece. I thought a bit about tapping the nose piece for a scale bracket, but I doubt it's a good idea to attach any kind of scale at the business end like that.


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

Janger said:


> Omg we’re all IT geeks



I find it actually quite amazing. And it isn't just video web skills. I never knew anyone around my neck of the woods who had been a part of the early evolution of microprocessors. Just a 
Handful of guys in California and some early internet adapters around the world on Compuserve. 

Then I join this Canadian metal worker forum and I discover that lots of members have a ton of experience in my lonely digital world and suddenly I'm not so alone. 

Amazing! And very cool!


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Here is a video for it one thing I didn't mention was there is a guide supporting it under the cover.



OK, so I was wrong. There is a place to do it on my mill/drill and my knee mills.






The nose moves with the quill. If the DRO parts are small enough, it might fit!






That vertical slide mechanism at the top of the limiter on the knee mill might work too! That the brass coloured part with a hole in it at the top of the threaded rod. But it could get real ugly real fast. Has anyone done this? Is it a good idea?


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## whydontu (Sep 8, 2021)

Back on to the round column mill. Someone‘s solution for losing the location. Maybe add linear bearings? Might be able to get within a few thou


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

What a great idea! I think it would be fairly easy to do too! 

I've never needed anything like that in the time I've had it (8 yrs or so). I usually just adjust it to the height I need and then lock it down. Once it has been locked down, it never moves. 

If I end up keeping it and sell my regular drill press instead, I'll probably do it!

But once I have a working knee mill, I don't know why or when I would need that feature.....  

But then again, the pure joy of just doing it would be awesome!


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## Brent H (Sep 8, 2021)

If you are talking about a DRO for the Bridgeport, this is the typical install:


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2021)

Yup, that's exactly what I was talking about. But I had wanted to put it onto the system DRO as opposed to standalone. 

That way, I could take advantage of the lathe function (if it has one) to add the two Z's together as per @YYCHM 's comment above. 

I'll have to take a boo at the link you provided to get a closer look at how it all fits together.


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## phaxtris (Sep 8, 2021)

Here is what I've done on my column mill, it could use some lipstick, but for now it works, might give you some ideas


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## YYCHM (Sep 8, 2021)

Check this out.....

DRO Z-Axis /4th axis "combiner" | Model Engineer (model-engineer.co.uk)


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> HXX DRO Set 3 Axis Magnetic Linear Scale Encoder With Digital Readout Digital Readout Display For Mill Lathe Machine|Level Measuring Instruments| - AliExpress



Last night I finally got a quote and a few answers. 

Change the order to 4-axis and watch the price quadruple. Jeepers Creepers! (still laughing about that!) And I'm still not sure I know what I'm getting! They just couldn't (or wouldn't) answer the question "Can I add z + Quill to get total z?" 






In fact, when I look at the panel, I don't even see how additional functions like that would be accessed. There is no menu button that I can see. So I'm thinking this is a really simple box - what you see is what you get. But I have zero experience with DROs. Anybody here know more?


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Check this out.....
> 
> DRO Z-Axis /4th axis "combiner" | Model Engineer (model-engineer.co.uk)



Jeepers Creepers! I posted the note above before reading yours. My browser had not refreshed. I would swear you knew what I was going to be posting before I did it! 

This is great stuff! Seems they are a bit worried about speed. That's easy to fix with a faster box. But still, I'd rather not have to. 

Thanks @YYCHM !


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## YYCHM (Sep 9, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Last night I finally got a quote and a few answers.
> 
> Change the order to 4-axis and watch the price quadruple. Jeepers Creepers! (still laughing about that!) And I'm still not sure I know what I'm getting! They just couldn't (or wouldn't) answer the question "Can I add z + Quill to get total z?"
> 
> In fact, when I look at the panel, I don't even see how additional functions like that would be accessed. There is no menu button that I can see. So I'm thinking this is a really simple box - what you see is what you get. But I have zero experience with DROs. Anybody here know more?



Ask them to email you an electronic copy of the Operation/User Manual.  That will explain it's functions and how to access them.

I started poking around looking at 4 axis DROs and ya the prices are anything from $500 to $1000+.  I didn't see anything with 4 scale inputs and 3 axis display outputs.  Some call the lathe function a combine function.

That Arduino combiner I posted sure looks like a slick solution doesn't it.  I also found an off the self combiner for around $120.  M-DRO Linear Encoder Summing Interface | machine-dro.co.uk


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ask them to email you an electronic copy of the Operation/User Manual.  That will explain it's functions and how to access them.
> 
> I started poking around looking at 4 axis DROs and ya the prices are anything from $500 to $1000+.  I didn't see anything with 4 scale inputs and 3 axis display outputs.  Some call the lathe function a combine function.
> 
> That Arduino combiner I posted sure looks like a slick solution doesn't it.  I also found an off the self combiner for around $120.  M-DRO Linear Encoder Summing Interface | machine-dro.co.uk



Already asked for the manuals. Prolly get them tonight. 

If I have to pay 500 for a DRO, it won't be happening. I can do my own math for that kind of coin. 

I love the Arduino solution. It's been a while since I last looked at what Dr Arduino has in his latest boxes. Then there are other faster more capable boxes around too. The raspberry pie intrigues the crap out of me. But I don't know a lot about it...... Yet. 

I have this horrible feeling that I won't be able to resist buying linear scales and making my own touch screen box....... I'm too old for that. I'm starting to feel a bit like @Mcgyver - too many projects.


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## PeterT (Sep 9, 2021)

If you are considering an encoder on the quill that ties into the DRO box, the challenge will be where to mount the scale & encoder & not conflict with other functionality. Typically for quills people use these for that reason. I might be dating myself as the conventional encoders are getting smaller all the time but I think they are pretty thick compared to shown. Newall makes Microsyn ~ 6mm dia carbon rods, but big bucks & not sure it will speak your DRO language anyways.


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## Tom O (Sep 9, 2021)

It should be accessible through the function button if you want to use it or not.


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## Tom O (Sep 9, 2021)

I have to replace a scale and encoder on the lathe I just got, while turning some leveling feet the swarf grabbed a cable and of course it’s discontinued so the replacement is $300. US plus delivery from South Korea ( fed ex ) and was here in five days the adapter coming from the States that was ordered on the 1st arrived at Vancouver on the 8th and supposedly here on the 9th. Total $422. Canadian


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom O said:


> I have to replace a scale and encoder on the lathe I just got, while turning some leveling feet the swarf grabbed a cable and of course it’s discontinued so the replacement is $300. US plus delivery from South Korea ( fed ex ) and was here in five days the adapter coming from the States that was ordered on the 1st arrived at Vancouver on the 8th and supposedly here on the 9th. Total $422. Canadian



Holy crap. 300 US just for the scale....... I guess I shouldn't complain.


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## Tom O (Sep 9, 2021)

Well it was a glass 40" with 37" travel so it was a larger one.


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## whydontu (Sep 9, 2021)

I’ve done some transactions with CDCO. Not rock-bottom pricing, but can be ordered a la carte.

http://www.cdcotools.com

After months of messing around with Raspberry Pi stuff, I gave up. I think in bits and wiring and can reel off TTL chip pinouts from memory, RPi is all software and trying to write Python code to direct a Linux OS was just too much. Too many layers of software between the inputs and outputs. You mainframe guys would be better at it, I’m a hardware guy with iffy coding skills.


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## johnnielsen (Sep 9, 2021)

I know I've said it before but the simplest way to maintain alignment is to drill, tap and bolt the rack the milling head lifts and lowers on directly to the column.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Well it was a glass 40" with 37" travel so it was a larger one.



I see. I only need 30" of travel on my lathe. It's a 12x36.  Yours must be a biggie in comparison. Even so, maybe that's partly why the quote was so high. They were back on line last night. I asked them to itemize their quote so I can see if any of it makes sense for me. Wow...... What an ordeal. 

Turns out the original ad that @YYCHM provided said it was magnetic but it was really optical. They told me that Magnetic is what drove the price up. But I looked around and there was lots of info to the contrary. 

The ads are very misleading and so is the sales job. I feel preyed on. Makes me want to pay more to buy from dro pros instead.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

johnnielsen said:


> I know I've said it before but the simplest way to maintain alignment is to drill, tap and bolt the rack the milling head lifts and lowers on directly to the column.



Wouldn't you also have to add ways and Gibbs to the rack to accomplish that? 

My rack doesn't seem to move at all. At least not judging by the grease tracks on the column. But my head probably wobbles a good inch. 

Anyway, I really don't see why this is a huge problem. If you crank the head up, I simply re-index as part of the process.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

whydontu said:


> I’ve done some transactions with CDCO. Not rock-bottom pricing, but can be ordered a la carte.
> 
> http://www.cdcotools.com
> 
> After months of messing around with Raspberry Pi stuff, I gave up. I think in bits and wiring and can reel off TTL chip pinouts from memory, RPi is all software and trying to write Python code to direct a Linux OS was just too much. Too many layers of software between the inputs and outputs. You mainframe guys would be better at it, I’m a hardware guy with iffy coding skills.



Too funny @whydontu!

I don't think of myself as a mainframe guy. But I probably was. I did a lot of high level work in Catia, Fortran, and proprietary software. So that shoe does fit. 

However, I think of myself as a bit guy like you. My first love was at the hardware level working with sensors, circuits, TTL, cmos, and hardware drivers. etc. That usually meant that most coding was in machine or assembly language. 

While most coders would call that binary, I like to say that I actually think in octal! As someone like you would know, octal is 3 bits - a perfect three bits! It is sooooo beautiful! I believe I already posted somewhere else on this forum, if only we humans had only used our fingers to count and left out our thumbs, we might all be thinking in octal today and we would all be so much better at math than we are. (Insert big huge sigh here......) 

Please forgive me a short story I love to tell. I once programmed an hp41 calculator to play chess. I did it to enter a competition. A chess board is 8x8. So I converted all the positions into two octal pairs with rules for piece moves and weights for value. The game could be told how far to look ahead and maximum thinking time. It was formidable. But it also turned a light bulb on in my head. I converted all the octal data to decimal for the calculations and then back to octal for the play, and then back to decimal for output. So the program actually worked in octal. And slowly but surely, so did my brain. When the dust cleared, I had a working program and a mind that loved octal. I could do complex math in my head! I didn't win the competition, but I maintain that was only because the judges didn't have any clue about how hard good chess is. They probably compared my program to pacman. That's my story anyway. 

The main result though was a lifetime love for octal. Ya, I can do hex and sometimes have to. Binary is a given. But octal will run rings around hex and decimal and that horrible SAE crap we all love so much too! 

Sorry for the diversion......


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## YYCHM (Sep 10, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Turns out the original ad that @YYCHM provided said it was magnetic but it was really optical. They told me that Magnetic is what drove the price up. But I looked around and there was lots of info to the contrary.
> 
> The ads are very misleading and so is the sales job. I feel preyed on. Makes me want to pay more to buy from dro pros instead.



Did they provide you with the Operation/User Manual to look over?  

Part of the pain with dealing with AliExpress, Banggood etc is the language barrier but they are good with issuing refunds etc if things fail to meet your expectations or get lost.


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## Janger (Sep 10, 2021)

whydontu said:


> After months of messing around with Raspberry Pi stuff, I gave up. I think in bits and wiring and can reel off TTL chip pinouts from memory, RPi is all software and trying to write Python code to direct a Linux OS was just too much. Too many layers of software between the inputs and outputs. You mainframe guys would be better at it, I’m a hardware guy with iffy coding skills.



I think you would like Arduino. You can easily write statements in C that read and write to pins.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Did they provide you with the Operation/User Manual to look over?
> 
> Part of the pain with dealing with AliExpress, Banggood etc is the language barrier but they are good with issuing refunds etc if things fail to meet your expectations or get lost.



Nope. No manuals. Used the excuse that they haven't been converted to pdfs yet..... Ya, right. More likely wanted me to buy on blind faith since odds of returning go down on receipt or just didn't want to bother looking for one. 

Yes, the language barrier is not trivial, but if she can call me "dear" and writes pretty damn good English, I think it's as above not lack of understanding.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

Janger said:


> I think you would like Arduino. You can easily write statements in C that read and write to pins.



As I said in another post I am familiar with it, and have danced all around it, just never used it.....yet. Pics, micro controllers, Parallax basic stamps, etc etc etc. Just no Arduino yet.


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## YYCHM (Sep 10, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Nope. No manuals. Used the excuse that they haven't been converted to pdfs yet..... Ya, right. More likely wanted me to buy on blind faith since odds of returning go down on receipt or just didn't want to bother looking for one.
> 
> Yes, the language barrier is not trivial, but if she can call me "dear" and writes pretty damn good English, I think it's as above not lack of understanding.



Now listed as C$ 257.70 time to look else where.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

Ya, and contrary to the ad, that did NOT include the sensors! It was almost 400 at the old price after three optical units were added in, and over 500 with the magnetic ones the ad said it had!


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## YYCHM (Sep 10, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Ya, and contrary to the ad, that did NOT include the sensors! It was almost 400 at the old price after three optical units were added in, and over 500 with the magnetic ones the ad said it had!



*WHAT???*  That doesn't sound right..... 

This order includes :   1pcs 3 axis digital readout/DRO GCS900-3/ , with 3 pcs linear scales travel length is 50-1000mm (Total length=travel length+138mm , Resolution is 5u , Travel length can be customized )  ,with mounting bracket ,  cable , It is one whole set .

I could see the magnetic scale vs optic scale thing being a screw up on the ad.

Something went sideways with how your quote request was interpreted.


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## Susquatch (Sep 10, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> *WHAT???*  That doesn't sound right.....
> 
> This order includes :   1pcs 3 axis digital readout/DRO GCS900-3/ , with 3 pcs linear scales travel length is 50-1000mm (Total length=travel length+138mm , Resolution is 5u , Travel length can be customized )  ,with mounting bracket ,  cable , It is one whole set .
> 
> ...



Yup. The ad was misleading on two counts. I went back and forth with them several times.

I even quoted the description - just as you did. They said no way, no scales included.

I think the magnetic scales is just as clear. It's right in the main title of the product for crikey sake! They denied that too.

I've sent them another note with the new price and asked them why. I'm betting on more deceit.

Wondering if it's worth a complaint to AliExpress.....


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## YYCHM (Sep 10, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Wondering if it's worth a complaint to AliExpress.....



I would say it is.


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## Susquatch (Sep 11, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> I would say it is.



Tried to do that just now. Holy cow. I couldn't even read the screens! I'll try again on a computer later on.


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## Susquatch (Sep 11, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> I would say it is.



Tried on a desktop just now. No go. No way to choose false advertizing or the like. They only seem to care about copyright infringement.


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