# Bead Roller Stand



## CalgaryPT (Feb 5, 2020)

I needed a stand for my new bead roller. I hate standing when using bead rollers, so when I got rid of my old one and bought a powered unit I made a heavy duty stand that is adjustable so I can sit down and bead roll. Just dialling in the unit; it's very different than my old one. Next up is a fold down table and adjustable fence for doing hems and flange work.

The pedestal is sleeved 1/4" square tube, and the base is 1/4" plate. I got the plate as an off cut from MPC but it was A516-70, not A36. I'd never plasma cut that before...it seems a little harder to cut. More dross and slower speed I thought. Also, the mill scale is a lot harder to remove. I might wait for a nice day and take it to Consolidated Compressor and sand blast it before painting.


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## PeterT (Feb 5, 2020)

That is cool. I guess the bead rolling pretty much has to be freehand like tracing over a felt pen line on the sheet metal stock, eh? Do you ease into it on the first pass so you could make slight smoothing path corrections, o you have to go full squish on the first pass pass & get it right? Now that I see that, I recognize so many features on FS aircraft components like bulkheads & formers that were probably made that way for stiffness & shape.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 6, 2020)

It's pretty much freehand, but you can add a fence to ensure a consistent distance from the edge each time for some processes. For example, a fence is handy for flanging (Z bends) on the edge of the sheet.

Funny you should ask the freehand question because I don't have an artistic bone in my body and have stressed over things that aren't perfect my whole life. Oddly, I find bead rolling relaxing because even things that aren't perfect still look great (at least to me). It's taught me a lot about appreciating things that are unique and imperfect, but great to look at. I used to trace transfer a lot of patterns onto metal with acetone, then bead roll them. I got away from it for a long time because it is a two man job with a manual bead roller, but is so relaxing to do freehand by yourself with a power roller. I bought a big Baldor buffer on sale about ten years ago for this stuff; it's amazing how polished a rolled sheet looks after a few mins on a powerful buffer.

You can go full squish if your motor is powerful enough, but you will also marr your work that way—especially if you are using steel dies instead of Nylatron or some softer material. Some dies will even cut through sheet if you go too deep at once. Going too fast or deep leaves no margin of error—which I hate. If you ease into it you can adjust as you go. Once your marker lines get erased in the end it's amazing how small errors are difficult to see. You may think you went way off a line, but after erasing your Sharpie lines, you often can't tell because it all looks so good. Also, by doing a slow pass without much pressure you make a path that the dies follow better each time. Good machines have variable speed petals with speed limiting pots, so once the path is established you can go faster. The trick is to count the number of rotations on the handle. That way you roll the same depth every time. I go very slow just because it's amazing how quickly you can stretch the sheet if you get carried away.

For artwork people often use an Art Roll die (very narrow) with a grooved die of a favourite size on the bottom (affects the sharpness of the groove). You do light passes and then switch to step dies to deepen the grooves and provide definition. By using softer material or even skateboard wheels (common trick) for your bottom dies, your beads transition into one another like flames—instead of crushing any previous beads you cross over. It's a true art for those who master it and great fun for people like me that just get "competent" at it. But I'm told every power roller is like a sewing machine in that each one has its own personality.

I'm looking forward to getting back into this side of metalworking, and doing some more patina work as well.


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## DPittman (Feb 6, 2020)

Sweet!  Nice machine, stand and beads.

I have one of those cheap princess auto bead rollers I clamp in my vice. I know just enough, that I know that somebody else with a different machine (like yourself)  could make some pretty cool stuff.  
I've never done any artwork with mine (that's way above me) I've only beaded stuff to increase rigidity of panels and I really like it for that.
Be sure to share photos of your projects.  Often times its photos of other guys' projects that keep some of us going. Thank you for that.


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## Duncan K (Feb 6, 2020)

Very cool! A bead roller is high on my list of tools to get


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## Tom O (Feb 6, 2020)

Nice beader, power too lucky man! What is the throat on it 18 inches?
We have the Princess Auto one as well it does the job but does need a motor on it.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 6, 2020)

Tom O said:


> Nice beader, power too lucky man! What is the throat on it 18 inches?
> We have the Princess Auto one as well it does the job but does need a motor on it.


It’s a 24 inch throat. A lot of guys have the PA/Harbor Freight/Eastwood model. You can mod them to make them stiffer and add a motor to get a pretty decent machine.


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## DPittman (Feb 6, 2020)

Yes the Princess Auto bead roller has about enough stiffness to roll tin foil, however it is easy to beef up.  Mine has a 18" throat. 
It may be just my inexperience with bead rollers, but I can't imagine that unless you had a really good foot controlled variable speed, a motorized one would be much good.  Possibly if you were doing easy straight line production work, but anything slightly complex would be a nightmare with out precise infinite speed control.  Some of the contraptions Ive seen on YouTube look very poor in my opinion.  Possibly a really slow motor would be ok.  Those with real knowledge and expertise feel free to correct me....

Now that machine pictured above....that looks like a Cadillac.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 6, 2020)

DPittman said:


> Yes the Princess Auto bead roller has about enough stiffness to roll tin foil, however it is easy to beef up.  Mine has a 18" throat.
> It may be just my inexperience with bead rollers, but I can't imagine that unless you had a really good foot controlled variable speed, a motorized one would be much good.  Possibly if you were doing easy straight line production work, but anything slightly complex would be a nightmare with out precise infinite speed control.  Some of the contraptions Ive seen on YouTube look very poor in my opinion.  Possibly a really slow motor would be ok.  Those with real knowledge and expertise feel free to correct me....
> 
> Now that machine pictured above....that looks like a Cadillac.


You're right about variable speed. If you are doing repetitive production work with a fence, you could get by without VS. But most guys who do that sort of stuff use a dedicated flange roller/rotary machine, which is like a stubby version of a bead roller with maybe a 6" throat. They typically aren't used for artistic stuff.

Oh and for the record, the Lazze machines are the Cadillacs. His 2nd gen machine sells for a whopping 7K $US (OK, he says "only" 7K). That's crazy. I saw one once. While beautiful, I don't see where the extra value is. All his stuff is super pricey. I'm thinking his dies must be made from a gold alloy and the depth adjustment handle from unicorn horn or something.


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 7, 2020)

I just looked at Lazze and through it looks great I fail to see value as well. Unless it includes gold or some unicorn. If someone got control of a factory in China and ordered premium stuff not the usual crap pp from NA order there b/c well... we all assume China has to be inferior, then it would easily match or surpass Lazze in every way shape and form. If one does not trust Chinese to cut dies properly they can be made in Japan or... Switzerland. 7k USD is a lot of money for such a small machine... imagine that for a bit more you can get either a small car or Taiwan made clone of a B-port. This set is 2/3 of the price of a new Toyota SUV - https://www.lazzemetalshaping.com/i...oduct_id=66/category_id=3/mode=prod/prd66.htm


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 7, 2020)

Tom Kitta said:


> I just looked at Lazze and through it looks great I fail to see value as well. Unless it includes gold or some unicorn. If someone got control of a factory in China and ordered premium stuff not the usual crap pp from NA order there b/c well... we all assume China has to be inferior, then it would easily match or surpass Lazze in every way shape and form. If one does not trust Chinese to cut dies properly they can be made in Japan or... Switzerland. 7k USD is a lot of money for such a small machine... imagine that for a bit more you can get either a small car or Taiwan made clone of a B-port. This set is 2/3 of the price of a new Toyota SUV - https://www.lazzemetalshaping.com/i...oduct_id=66/category_id=3/mode=prod/prd66.htm


Yeah, I completely agree with that. We love to slam China, but the fact is they produce at a price point people want. If we were willing to pay more money, then they would happily produce better (or any) quality we asked for. People forget that supply and demand works for quality, not just quantity. Those of us old enough remember Japanese made cars in the 1970s and their quality issues—but look at them now. 

Sadly the playing field gets uneven quickly when we factor in trade unions, human rights, safety, environmental considerations and things like trade tariffs.  All of which have a huge impact on competitive manufacturing. 

I wonder what impact disruptive technologies like 3D metal printing will have on markets once it matures?


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## DPittman (Feb 7, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> Oh and for the record, the Lazze machines are the Cadillacs. His 2nd gen machine sells for a whopping 7K $US (OK, he says "only" 7K).


I wonder how much of that is name and prestige.... Yes no doubt there is really good quality and features but is it like a Stradivarius violin?... a good musician can play just as nice music on a lesser violin but maybe there is something about the experience using the tool/instrument that is worth the crazy money?  I know even less about violins than bead rollers...I'm just trying to figure out why people would pay so damn much for some stuff.  I guess I should stick to playing the radio and with cheap Asian machinery....I ain't ever going to produce beautiful "music"


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## Chicken lights (Feb 7, 2020)

DPittman said:


> I wonder how much of that is name and prestige.... Yes no doubt there is really good quality and features but is it like a Stradivarius violin?... a good musician can play just as nice music on a lesser violin but maybe there is something about the experience using the tool/instrument that is worth the crazy money?  I know even less about violins than bead rollers...I'm just trying to figure out why people would pay so damn much for some stuff.  I guess I should stick to playing the radio and with cheap Asian machinery....I ain't ever going to produce beautiful "music"


There IS something to that, a $150 Snap On ratchet is a lot nicer to use than a $15 one from Canadian Tire

But it doesn’t make me a better mechanic


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 7, 2020)

Not all Snap on products are better then cheap China - Snap on 1/2" breaker bar failed before 1/2" breaker bar from China purchased at Harbor Freight did. Certainly even if they are better the difference is tiny, not necessitating 10x rise in price for 99.999% of use. If you are going to take a wrench to the space station you would not mind paying $1000 for one that is 10% stronger but 10% lighter then say HF. Same thing with violin - for expert musician in a great hall it makes sense - even 1% better performance for 10x price increase does. But not for 99.999% of users. 

Of course neither Snap On nor Stradivarius would survive on 0.01% market share of pp where it makes sense - so a lot of brand prestige keeps them afloat. Thus one could make better machine then Lazze for say 1/3 of the price but luck of brand recognition would make it a hard sell. Brands are valuable thing.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 7, 2020)

I've never understood Snap-On's distribution model and why I can't buy from anywhere but their trucks...which is why I never tried their tools.

Oh yeah, that and the fact that I can't stomach a 6" ruler for $27.60:


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## Tom Kitta (Feb 7, 2020)

Now image you can pay far less for a ruler and get... a better tool. Reviews of electronic stuff from Snap On by Awe online on youtube show regular store brands like DeWalt and Milwakee are all over Snap On - in both utility and build quality not to mention price. 

I have few Snap On things I got from garage sales and tool lots. I honestly don't see any difference between them and not total POS stuff. I.e. a wrench at Princess Auto is the same quality as Snap On. Better premium sockets (i.e. not laser etched) are the same as Snap On. As far as ratchets, a premium ratchet from Princess Auto is same as my Snap On.  Basically anything that is not ultra cheap POS is same or better.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 7, 2020)

CalgaryPT said:


> I've never understood Snap-On's distribution model and why I can't buy from anywhere but their trucks...which is why I never tried their tools.
> 
> Oh yeah, that and the fact that I can't stomach a 6" ruler for $27.60:


You can order from their website, delivered to your door


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## Overkill19 (Feb 7, 2020)

Did you order ur roller online or did u find a place in yyc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 7, 2020)

Online. I looked at a couple of distributors I've dealt with before, but they all take a lift on the price. It's bad enough with shipping and taxes as is.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 7, 2020)

Tom Kitta said:


> This set is 2/3 of the price of a new Toyota SUV - https://www.lazzemetalshaping.com/i...oduct_id=66/category_id=3/mode=prod/prd66.htm


LOL. And I love that you can "Add to Cart." If I put $15K through on a credit card transaction, my bank would 1) first reject the purchase, then 2)  come to my house and beat me. 

There's clearly another a financial world out there I'm not part of.


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2020)

Your bead roller ins a very nice piece of kit!!  well done! 

I have one Snap-On tool I bought new - right off the truck.  I needed a very thin walled (approx 16mm) socket for doing bicycle chainsets;  and the soft, crappy, and unusable one from the manufacturer was 47$ US.  So I went and paid 50$ for a Snap-On one off the truck. Yes 50$ for one socket.  They are nice tools, but I prefer buying them at garage sales.


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2020)

On the topic of rulers; my 12" Mitutoyo flexible ruler was 27$, my 6" X 1" Mitutoyo ruler was over 17$.  Not stupid to buy though.  They are easy to read and with the very black thin lines I can read accurately to .010 with just the rulers.  Saves time, and they are a joy to use.  

At that price, they are a 'cheap luxury'.


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## Bofobo (Feb 20, 2020)

Well I know whom I may have to ask for a hand in this project


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## DPittman (Feb 21, 2020)

Bofobo said:


> Well I know whom I may have to ask for a hand in this project


You must have seen that Ron Covell video where he made a "bobber" seat.  It's a beautiful work of art.  If you haven't seen it check it out.


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 21, 2020)

Really nice. Thanks. 

For the record I have zero talent for this kind of stuff. I wish I did, but I don't. I am trying to learn, but to date most of my work is structural...just making panels stronger with beads, etc. Nor do I work with AL or have the dies for that. One day maybe...but like most of you I have a hundred projects ahead of me I have to get done before I can devote more time to this fun stuff.


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## Chris Cramer (Oct 25, 2020)

I've been looking into purchasing a bead roller to use along with my english wheel for shaping metal. The thinnest metal I use is about 18 gauge steel, which model would be best for doing a large variety of work including artwork rather than standard panel strengthening?


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 26, 2020)

Chris Cramer said:


> I've been looking into purchasing a bead roller to use along with my english wheel for shaping metal. The thinnest metal I use is about 18 gauge steel, which model would be best for doing a large variety of work including artwork rather than standard panel strengthening?


Hey Chris, the _thinnest_ you use is 18 gauge? Do you mean thickest? High end bead rollers typically max out at 16 gauge. Beyond that you're looking at some HD rotary machines, which aren't much good for artwork IMHO due to the limited throat depth (which is kind of the opposite of what you need for artwork).

If you're using an English wheel already you know how the shape of the metal increases its strength. I was amazed when I got my first bead roller how flimsy 22 or 24 gauge suddenly had the strength of much thicker metal once you run some beads through it. Then I read up on the history of the machines and how adding those beads to bomber seats during WWII was instrumental in saving weight. I guess what I am saying is, if you think you need to bead roll 16 gauge you might be surprized to discover you actually can use much thinner sheet than this to achieve what you want. My apologies if you already know this; but I was shocked 20 years ago even learning this on a hand bead roller—never mind the power one I have now. It was a long time ago but I still recall using thinner and thinner material and still getting great results.

Having said this, first ask yourself if you will be working alone. If yes (and especially for artwork), a manual bead roller is out of the question because you need both hands working the sheet. For artwork you'll want at least a 24" throat depth, and you can't handle the material and crank by yourself on that type of machine. On the shorter manual ones you can, but they are really just for running a flange or edge bead for a car panel with a buddy...not much else.

So assuming you are talking power bead roller, here's what I would consider for artwork and maybe some panel work:

Make sure BOTH rollers are driven (some cheap ones drive only one roller)
24" throat min., or 36" depending on your needs and space (they do take up space)
At least one roller should allow you to adjust the die spacing. This gives you the most flexibility to design your own bead patterns and either adjust the offset on the die(s) to create new patterns or even machine your own dies. Some machines you just use washers or spacers; others are threaded and you adjust the die(s) that way.
A table is a must for artwork to steady your hands and arms. A lot of guys build their own.
I think splined drives are unnecessary, but some guys like them. IMHO if you're driving your machine so hard that the dies are slipping, you're trying to do too much in one pass. Spline drives are necessary on a lot of rotary machines that routinely do thicker gauges, but for 16 gauge or less you don't need them.
Quick change drives are nice, but expensive and probably wasted unless you use the machine all day long.
A variable speed motor with a variable speed foot petal (like a TIG welder) is best for artwork. Some motors are VS, but the petal is only OFF/ON. That's fine and works pretty well, but just be aware whether this is a deal breaker for you personally.
Motor s/b reversible—especially for doing artwork.
Look for a machine that accepts dies from multiple companies if possible. Some companies, like Mittler Bros., even have licensing agreements with competitors like Lazze and cross-manufacture die patterns.
Give some thought to where you're going to put it and make or buy an _adjustable_ stand. For artwork you'll want to sit at it; but for panel work you'll want to stand up. If you make your own and put it on casters, make sure at least two of them are lockable as there is some lateral force on the machine and you don't want it to move.
There are lots of great learning videos on YouTube including tips on which dies are essential for everyday use vs. artwork. I'm happy to share my playlist with you if you want. I spent months researching this stuff. Same is true if you want to talk brands.
Lastly, it took me months to figure out a way to transfer patterns I found on the internet to metal so I could bead roll them. You may know this stuff already, but if not I'm happy to save you time and share how I do this if you want.

Best of luck. Let me know if I can help


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