# Looking for feedback on small milling machine



## thriller007 (May 12, 2020)

I’m in the market for a small milling machine and space is a limitation that I have. I do have one of the combination lathe and Milling machines. From busy bee . I was looking at getting a more dedicated machine.
Some of the machines that I was exploring were the Craftex cx601, Craftex cx600, king Canada 20vs, and rong fu style mill drill.
I’m just trying to learn more with regard to these machines and what they can do as well as what they can’t do. Thanks in advance


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## Janger (May 12, 2020)

Search the forum for these machines - we have discussed them quite a bit. Welcome aboard.


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## Dabbler (May 13, 2020)

@thriller007 there is a trade-off between size/weight and capability.  You may spend a lot and only improve capability slightly.   There are full sized machines with small tables that would do most everything you can do on a vertical mill.


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## thriller007 (May 13, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @thriller007 there is a trade-off between size/weight and capability.  You may spend a lot and only improve capability slightly.   There are full sized machines with small tables that would do most everything you can do on a vertical mill.


What do you run for a milling machine Dabbler?


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## Dabbler (May 13, 2020)

I have an embarrassment of milling machines.  my primary machine is a 9X49 BP clone.  Three years ago I bought a 1930s horizontal mill (because it was cute).  Last year I bought an 8X32 BP clone because I got a great deal on a basically new machine.  Then Bert needed someone to buy his machines and move them out. So after 2 months of his 7 X 42 BP clone not selling I bought it.  But it is not back together again (yet).

For almost 20 years I had a Busy Bee B048 8 X 30mill that didn't have a ram.  it looked like* this one.*  I got tired of not being able to tap holes using a full sized tap wrench, so around 5 years ago I upgraded it to the 9X49 and sold the old one to @Janger 

TMI? sorry about that.  Yes I have too many mills.  Yes, soon I'll have to sell at least one of them. Every one of the vertical mills I have weighs over 2000lbs.  If you have to go down to a basement, the go for at least a PM45 type, because the smaller ones don't get you much further than what you have now.  Ask any of the guys that have RF30 mills.  Most of them have been relegated to drill press duty.

I've never regretted upgrading to a full sized mill.  Even though it is huge.

A good used 8X32 'big boy' mill will do better work faster and easier, with better resale value. But only if you down't go down stairs.

Just my 2 cents.


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## YYCHM (May 13, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> I Ask any of the guys that have RF30 mills.  Most of them have been relegated to drill press duty.



Hmmmmm?????  @David_R8 , @historicalarms Do you agree with that statement?


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## thriller007 (May 13, 2020)

Wow Dabbler you have had a lot. I had to do a quick google search to see pictures of all the mills you are talking about.  I do not have to take a mill to the basement but I do have a small shop. Ironically I have to do some rearranging just to fit one like a PDM30 into my shop and still have enough room to get a vehicle in there when needed. I was concerned about the size being too big for my space. I was also concerned about the round shaft on the rong fu style and having to adjust the head.


Dabbler said:


> I have an embarrassment of milling machines.  my primary machine is a 9X49 BP clone.  Three years ago I bought a 1930s horizontal mill (because it was cute).  Last year I bought an 8X32 BP clone because I got a great deal on a basically new machine.  Then Bert needed someone to buy his machines and move them out. So after 2 months of his 7 X 42 BP clone not selling I bought it.  But it is not back together again (yet).
> 
> For almost 20 years I had a Busy Bee B048 8 X 30mill that didn't have a ram.  it looked like* this one.*  I got tired of not being able to tap holes using a full sized tap wrench, so around 5 years ago I upgraded it to the 9X49 and sold the old one to @Janger
> 
> ...


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## David_R8 (May 13, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Hmmmmm?????  @David_R8 , @historicalarms Do you agree with that statement?


I don't agree. Mine works a treat. It is not a Bridgeport but it will do quite respectable work.
@thriller007 round column mills get a lot of bad press about the inability to hold head position. In my opinion a lot of it is hogwash. It is true that if one has to raise the head during an operation you will lose your X position relative to your work. Once strategy to avoid having to raise the head is to determine what cutting tools you need for a given operation and have the head at a height where the longest (typically a drill bit or reamer) will just fit when chucked in.

I have an ER32 collet chuck as my main tool holder for my mill. Works great but it does stick out from the bottom of the spindle about 2.5". When I'm pressed for space between the work and the spindle I switch to an MT3 taper collet which is essentially flush with the bottom of the spindle nose giving me back 2.5" of space.

If I have to raise the head in the middle of work on an item I use a dial indicator on a magnetic base on the table and indicate against the quill. Once located, I raise the head of the mill, lower the quill and then move the head so the DI reads the same as before I lifted the head. The hardest part is maintaining the reading when tightening the bolts that clamp the head to the column. I can very easily return the head to within .001" of where is was before.

I have seen some really slick setups that combine a vertical rods and linear bearings to fashion a sort of guide to fix the head in one position.


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## thriller007 (May 13, 2020)

thanks, what should someone expect to pay for a used rong fu style mill drill? 


David_R8 said:


> I don't agree. Mine works a treat. It is not a Bridgeport but it will do quite respectable work.
> @thriller007 round column mills get a lot of bad press about the inability to hold head position. In my opinion a lot of it is hogwash. It is true that if one has to raise the head during an operation you will lose your X position relative to your work. Once strategy to avoid having to raise the head is to determine what cutting tools you need for a given operation and have the head at a height where the longest (typically a drill bit or reamer) will just fit when chucked in.
> 
> I have an ER32 collet chuck as my main tool holder for my mill. Works great but it does stick out from the bottom of the spindle about 2.5". When I'm pressed for space between the work and the spindle I switch to an MT3 taper collet which is essentially flush with the bottom of the spindle nose giving me back 2.5" of space.
> ...


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## David_R8 (May 13, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> thanks, what should someone expect to pay for a used rong fu style mill drill?


Where are you located? Pricing is very regional.

I paid $1300 for my RF clone. But my market is extremely limited and accordingly prices are high. I passed on a used RF40, basically a geared head round column, that was for sale at $2600. There was a fellow on the island selling a Lagun clone for $8500. 

I've since added a 3-axis DRO and I'm in the midst of switching to a 3 phase motor and VFD so I can have variable speed.


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## Dabbler (May 13, 2020)

I've never owned a round column mill.  I've seen 5 or 6 in _other_ guys shops, and in every case they've bought another mill.  Not disputing @David_R8 experiences.  my observation is that they're great for doing what they do.  

All my work is much bigger - the 9X49 is barely big enough for some of my projects, and I wonder if I should have bought the 10 X 50 for 2K$ more instead.  Decisions, decisions!


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

Ok thanks, changing gears here a bit is it even worth it to go from something like the combo machine I have to something like a king Canada 20vs or cx600. Also considering I have a small lathe as well?


Dabbler said:


> I've never owned a round column mill.  I've seen 5 or 6 in _other_ guys shops, and in every case they've bought another mill.  Not disputing @David_R8 experiences.  my observation is that they're great for doing what they do.
> 
> All my work is much bigger - the 9X49 is barely big enough for some of my projects, and I wonder if I should have bought the 10 X 50 for 2K$ more instead.  Decisions, decisions!


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

The only one I have seen come up is this column mill and all I can tell is it was from house of tools originally. I don’t have any actual work to do just learning.


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2020)

I think that would be more capable than what you currently have. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> The only one I have seen come up is this column mill and all I can tell is it was from house of tools originally. I don’t have any actual work to do just learning.



Where did you find this?  I'm looking for one.


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## trlvn (May 14, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> All my work is much bigger - the 9X49 is barely big enough for some of my projects, and I wonder if I should have bought the 10 X 50 for 2K$ more instead. Decisions, decisions!


The work you want to do makes a huge difference, obviously.  If a guy wants to build scale models, a huge mill is going to be more liability than asset.  @thriller007 what do you see yourself doing?

Craig


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## trlvn (May 14, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> thanks, what should someone expect to pay for a used rong fu style mill drill?


There are a few models of RF mills.  I believe the RF-20 & RF-25 are much smaller than the more-common RF-30.  

Condition is a huge price driver.  A little surface rust is no big deal.  Damage, worn-out screws, loose quill or spindle would really drive the price down.  

Accessories and tooling can be worth the price of the bare machine.  Vise and other clamping stuff, collets, chucks, DRO, power feeds, yadda yadda.  Then, of course, cutters.  A single quality carbide end mill can be a pricey thing.  

BTW, keep in mind how you are going to move the machine.  I rented a lift-gate box truck for a day to retrieve mine.  Maybe you already have access to a truck or trailer.

Craig


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## historicalarms (May 14, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Hmmmmm?????  @David_R8 , @historicalarms Do you agree with that statement?


 
  I have owned both a mini-mill and the RF 30 that I currently still own (exact same machine as the "House of Tools photo"  $1200 new in Y2K or thereabouts), I do mostly agree with David, with a choise between the mini & the RF, the RF wins hands down. I did add a power feed to the long axis and consider that money well spent. 
     However they do have some shortfalls that come into play at time's. The two biggest to me are the belt speed changes and the fact that the head cant be tilted at all. The column locking mechanism has never been a problem for me. The shorter table travel than a bigger machine has its limitations but with a bit of forethought and judicious clamping arrangements this can usually be mitigated down to no problem at all. 

    All in all I would give my left nut to have a gear driven BP...but as my left nut is worthless & I don't have the cash....Ill happily use my RF 30...


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2020)

I’m mitigating the belt change by switching to a 3 phase motor and VFD. 
Tilting head... well I suppose I’d have to build/buy an angle vise or something 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turner (May 14, 2020)

I as well have a RF30, if you have a good one available... buy it. Thought process is....its better than nothing!
A lot can be learned on this little machine while you abide your time learning what big machine would best suit your needs.
Re-selling the RF30 will not be a problem when you graduate from the bench top models.
Yes, I would have a RF45 in a heart beat...if one came my way. RF45 = square column. 
Some day we will have a knee mill, but not so for today.
Todd T.


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## PeterT (May 14, 2020)

My personal thoughts. The only down side to a circular section (post) style mill is every time you raise or lower the head, the potential exists to lose your XY orientation. Unfortunately that happens often with tool changes, even something as simple as a short center drill to longer drill to a tap. Yes there are workarounds but its yet another thing. IMO if faced with funds or space or both constraints, I'd probably opt for a smaller dovetail mill. Next step up would be an RF-45 style machine, which really doesn't occupy appreciably more footprint, just weighs more. Some people dont even bother with the stand which can vary from OK to cheesy sheet metal & mount the casting base it to a bench or home brew stand.

The other factor is accessories. A small machine dictates small-ish accessories because both the headroom, table & T-slots are smaller: vise, rotary table, related clamping systems, MT vs R8 spindle tooling, chucks.... Those cost money too, often as much or more than the machine. Yes they can probably be re-deployed or utilized a larger mill, But another train of thought is buy it once. Ihave seen guys do amazing things on smaller mills as long as the job suits the machine. So it all boils down to what you aspire to do. I think the RF-45 style is a sweet spot all things equal. About the same available head room as a baby BP, all accessories very compatible to an upgrade if it happens. The only thing they are lacking (if you want to use that word) is power & overall rigidity. But you could do many years of work before upgrading to something larger.


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## RobinHood (May 14, 2020)

Excellent points from the previous posters.

Here are my 2c: whatever you end up getting, it will be a compromise. You will come across a job where you needed more x, y, and z travel. You will run out of headroom. You will not be able to hold a part the ideal way. You will say to yourself “wouldn’t it be nice if I only had ...”
This is where you have to get creative and find workarounds, start thinking outside the box. It will be frustrating at times too because you see the solution right in front of you, but can’t get there from here because you don’t have the right size machine. Maybe you have to make your part in two (or more) smaller pieces that fit on the mill you have.

Remember: Having a milling machine is better than having no milling machine.

Have a look at this video of a fellow using a milling machine that is way too small for the job...


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## Hruul (May 14, 2020)

those are some seriously out of the box setups.


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

I will let you know if i chose  not to take it.   





YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Where did you find this?  I'm looking for one.


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

Well I with I could travel back in time and buy it. 20 years of use out of it and he wants $1600 for the one i showed you a picture of.


historicalarms said:


> I have owned both a mini-mill and the RF 30 that I currently still own (exact same machine as the "House of Tools photo"  $1200 new in Y2K or thereabouts), I do mostly agree with David, with a choise between the mini & the RF, the RF wins hands down. I did add a power feed to the long axis and consider that money well spent.
> However they do have some shortfalls that come into play at time's. The two biggest to me are the belt speed changes and the fact that the head cant be tilted at all. The column locking mechanism has never been a problem for me. The shorter table travel than a bigger machine has its limitations but with a bit of forethought and judicious clamping arrangements this can usually be mitigated down to no problem at all.
> 
> All in all I would give my left nut to have a gear driven BP...but as my left nut is worthless & I don't have the cash....Ill happily use my RF 30...


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Well I with I could travel back in time and buy it. 20 years of use out of it and he wants $1600 for the one i showed you a picture of.


Holy smokes! That's outrageous even by my market standards

You'd be better off going to KMS and buying a new King


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Holy smokes! That's outrageous even by my market standards
> 
> You'd be better off going to KMS and buying a new King



That was my reaction as well.  Unless it comes with a whole swack of goodies.


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

That is why I am on here. You guys have the knowledge I do not. With that said it does come with a collet set and some end mills and a stand. What do you guys think something like that should go for?


David_R8 said:


> Holy smokes! That's outrageous even by my market standards
> 
> You'd be better off going to KMS and buying a new King


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2020)

Where are you located?


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

Sparwood BC. about 3 hrs from Calgary


David_R8 said:


> Where are you located?


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## David_R8 (May 14, 2020)

The collets, end mills and stand are pretty irrelevant to be honest.

Just looked at the picture and it looks to be in reasonable condition.
Have you seen the mill? What kind of overall condition is it in?


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## thriller007 (May 14, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> The collets, end mills and stand are pretty irrelevant to be honest.
> 
> Just looked at the picture and it looks to be in reasonable condition.
> Have you seen the mill? What kind of overall condition is it in?


I have not seen the mill in person.


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## Marc Moreau (May 14, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> I’m in the market for a small milling machine and space is a limitation that I have. I do have one of the combination lathe and Milling machines. From busy bee . I was looking at getting a more dedicated machine.
> Some of the machines that I was exploring were the Craftex cx601, Craftex cx600, king Canada 20vs, and rong fu style mill drill.
> I’m just trying to learn more with regard to these machines and what they can do as well as what they can’t do. Thanks in advance


Mine is cx 602 craftex from Busy bee and I love it .


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2020)

Marc Moreau said:


> Mine is cx 602 craftex from Busy bee and I love it .



I'd love it to   Space, 13 steep stair steps and a wife say it ain't gonna happen


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## Dabbler (May 14, 2020)

@Marc Moreau I used to own the B048, an earler version of the CX602.  Very nice machine.


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## PeterT (May 15, 2020)

I would have preferred a CX602 style over my RF-45 style at the time, but I don't recall Busy Bee even being in Calgary back then. My buddy in Kitchener had a nice BB lathe & it was Taiwanese. Grizzly has one like that too. A feature I like about those is belt drive, very quiet by comparison & maybe a bit more amenable to VFD conversion vs the RF-45 top mount (not sure there). 
My (Taiwan) RF-45 was a rattle box right from the get go. Pretty sure it was related to the sliding spline quill columns & not the gears. It didn't suffer accuracy or vibration as a result but was just annoying. The Chinese equivalent RF-45 we saw run at Modern tool was much quieter so they obviously have made some improvement, I just don't know what or where.


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## thriller007 (May 21, 2020)

I Now have had a look at it but it was jammed into the corner of a storage locker. It looked very clean from the limited amount I could see.  





David_R8 said:


> The collets, end mills and stand are pretty irrelevant to be honest.
> 
> Just looked at the picture and it looks to be in reasonable condition.
> Have you seen the mill? What kind of overall condition is it in?


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## YYCHM (May 21, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> I Now have had a look at it but it was jammed into the corner of a storage locker. It looked very clean from the limited amount I could see.



Don't know what to say about the $1600 asking price?  Seems high to me unless it came with DROs and a vise etc.

There was one advertised in Lloydminster for $500 earlier this year and not all that long ago one in Calgary disassemble for moving listed as make me an offer.  We are not sure the one in LLoyd was an RF30 or something smaller and the one in Calgary apparently had a casting crack of some sort.


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## thriller007 (May 23, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Don't know what to say about the $1600 asking price?  Seems high to me unless it came with DROs and a vise etc.
> 
> There was one advertised in Lloydminster for $500 earlier this year and not all that long ago one in Calgary disassemble for moving listed as make me an offer.  We are not sure the one in LLoyd was an RF30 or something smaller and the one in Calgary apparently had a casting crack of some sort.


Yes there was a vice collets and end mills.


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## Dabbler (May 24, 2020)

For those interested, this is not a bad video on budgeting for a new milling machine...


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