# Installing a DRO on a Hartford Bridgeport Clone.



## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

I started this thread somewhat in frustration at not being able to find detailed instructions on how to install magnetic scales on my Hartford Clone. So it will be a long thread asking lots of questions and dealing with lots of challenges.

The DRO is a Ditron D80 with Slim 1micron Magnetic Scales. 

I will also include a few posts about how I mounted the display and probably add additional posts as I change things in future. Thanks in advance to everyone who will contribute.


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

The first challenge is mounting the x-scale. I have lots of real estate for this. However, the scales are 1 micron magnetic. I want to protect them from swarf and damage. AND I want to find and install a way cover at the same time. 

Here is a photo of the install area and a photo of the scale. 

Ideas about doing a chip shield and a way cover would be appreciated.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

can you zoom out a bit on that last pic?


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## Hacker (Mar 5, 2022)

You got me thinking about my install on the x axis and I realized that there has to be a better way. I came across this this:




I wish I had seen this sooner. Will go out to the shop and do this to mine this afternoon. At least I can use the existing holes and will just have to make the brackets for the scale and reader.


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

Here is a link to a similar install done by @Hacker on a different mill. 

Post in thread 'Ditron DRO Finally Installed on Mill' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/ditron-dro-finally-installed-on-mill.4845/post-68886


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> can you zoom out a bit on that last pic?



Yup. I'll do that as soon as I get back out to the shop! For now, it's a picture of the back of the table looking from the backside forward. The lateral joint is the sliding X-axis joint between the table and the y axis saddle. That is where I want to mount the scale. It should be easy peasy except..... Keeping the chips off and mounting a way cover......


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## Brent H (Mar 5, 2022)

@Susquatch : way cover design:










Front way cover :






I think when I bought the above accordion one for my mill it was $30.  Works very well. 

For shielding your scales it is easiest to make a cover out of thin metal that covers the top and front and leaves the bottom open.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Keep in mind that one of the advantages of magnetic scales is that they are much more resistant to chips and coolant.  Shielding is not an issue except for physical damage.

treadmill belting makes great way covers. Theres one at the dump whenever i go. I always cut the belting off when i see one. Makes great drawer liners too.


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Keep in mind that one of the advantages of magnetic scales is that they are much more resistant to chips and coolant.  Shielding is not an issue except for physical damage.
> 
> treadmill belting makes great way covers. Theres one at the dump whenever i go. I always cut the belting off when i see one. Makes great drawer liners too.



Treadmill Belts - oooooo yaaaaa! I'll be looking for those from now on...... 

Magnetic Scales - since I've never used them I'm clueless. Doesn't the magnetic strip attract ferrous chips? 



Brent H said:


> For shielding your scales it is easiest to make a cover out of thin metal that covers the top and front and leaves the bottom open.



I've been thinking about using big U-Channel mounted with the opening down and the scale itself installed inside on the back wall. The reader would reach up into the channel and be adjusted to skim the stainless magnetic strip shield. 

But it's getting bigger by the second....... LOL! At this rate I'll be losing y travel range!


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Treadmill Belts - oooooo yaaaaa! I'll be looking for those from now on......


They are awesome, and free



Susquatch said:


> Magnetic Scales - since I've never used them I'm clueless. Doesn't the magnetic strip attract ferrous chips?


no they dont.



Susquatch said:


> I've been thinking about using big U-Channel mounted with the opening down and the scale itself installed inside on the back wall. The reader would reach up into the channel and be adjusted to skim the stainless magnetic strip shield.
> 
> But it's getting bigger by the second....... LOL! At this rate I'll be losing y travel range!



Even my factory installed Mitutoyo glass scales on my mill don't have guards. No issues so far. They aren't subjected to physical damage where they are mounted.  Some aluminum flashing from Home Depot would probably keep the chips off well enough.


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## StevSmar (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> …treadmill belting makes great way covers. Theres one at the dump whenever i go. I always cut the belting off when i see one. Makes great drawer liners too.


Great idea!

In Winnipeg you have to be fast at the dump, not because of the mosquitos, but because of the video surveillance to help “protect” the members of the public… I don’t know why you can’t just make an offer to buy what you want and make it a win-win situation.


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## John Conroy (Mar 5, 2022)

This is a good 3 part video series on installing a DRO


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> can you zoom out a bit on that last pic?



Here you go! One nice thing about my Hartford is that the saddle is totally square with the table. The only issue to deal with is the 50 thou that the table sits proud of the saddle.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Here you go! One nice thing about my Hartford is that the saddle is totally square with the table. The only issue to deal with is the 50 thou that the table sits proud of the saddle.
> 
> View attachment 21664


thats basically the same arrangement as the cross slide on my emco. I think i posted a pic before


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Another


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> This is a good 3 part video series on installing a DRO



I watched about half of the first video before abandoning it. Their install was not a BP Clone. It's not that I don't know how to measure or mount the scales. It's that I also want to achieve a number of other objectives that they don't cover in their videos. Besides, I think the members here are 20x better at innovating around significant challenges! 

I'm not shy about swiping great ideas from others!


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I think i posted a pic before


Yes you did. And you can rest assured that I noted that install with GREAT INTEREST. I believe I even commented about how did you avoid smashing the scale with your tailstock.... LOL!

While I'm dealing with the mill, I'm also keeping track of good ideas for my lathe. It's up next.....

But again, it's not about simply mounting the scale. That's easy peasy. It's about making a chip guard, doing a way cover, and making sure I don't lose any y-travel - all at the same time.



dfloen said:


> Even my factory installed Mitutoyo glass scales on my mill don't have guards. No issues so far. They aren't subjected to physical damage where they are mounted. Some aluminum flashing from Home Depot would probably keep the chips off well enough.



Excellent idea for a guard. Prolly better than my U-channel idea.



dfloen said:


> no they dont



Re - no worries about the magnetic scales attracting chips.

Hmmmmm..... Not saying you are wrong cuz I sure as heck don't know or I would not ask. But you have glass scales. How do you know I don't need to worry about attracting chips with a magnetic scale?

The other issue is that I often use a strong magnet to pick up swarf. It allows me to avoid mixing steel and aluminium. I keep separate garbage cans in my machining area to separate steel, aluminium, stainless, copper, and brass swarf. I get a bit more at the scrap yard that way. Beats the heck out of mixing it all up in a shop vac.

So that brings up another question. Will a magnet hurt the scale? Or should that practice die?


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Yes you did. And you can rest assured that I noted that install with GREAT INTEREST. I believe I even commented about how did you avoid smashing the scale with your tailstock.... LOL!
> 
> While I'm dealing with the mill, I'm also keeping track of good ideas for my lathe. It's up next.....
> 
> ...



I have glass scales on the mill, and on the V13 I have the exact same magnetic scales as you have. Chips are not attracted to the scales.


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## thestelster (Mar 5, 2022)

Here are some pictures of my set up.  The way covers are far from perfect, but good enough until I make something better.  The DRO is a Newall DP500, and some pics of their brackets and chip guard.  The plywood is there just to close the gap between the aluminium chip guard and the rear of the table.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Great idea!
> 
> In Winnipeg you have to be fast at the dump, not because of the mosquitos, but because of the video surveillance to help “protect” the members of the public… I don’t know why you can’t just make an offer to buy what you want and make it a win-win situation.



Ours is a rural dump, nobody cares what you do.

Once at the city dump i backed in next to a guy who was unloading a whole truck load of slat-wall sheets. I loaded it all up. On the way out, the girls in the scales were super confused because i was way heavier on the way out.


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have glass scales on the mill, and on the V13 I have the exact same magnetic scales as you have. Chips are not attracted to the scales.



Fantastic! Do you know if an external magnet can hurt the scales?


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Fantastic! Do you know if an external magnet can hurt the scales?



I'm not sure about that, but i don't think it would, unless maybe if you put the magnet right on the scale. I'm not willing to test that though


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I'm not sure about that, but i don't think it would, unless maybe if you put the magnet right on the scale. I'm not willing to test that though



Me either. 

Anybody have a scale they want to test? No? 

Might be a question for someone to post elsewhere. 

In the meantime, I'll put my swarf cleaning magnet away.


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## CWelkie (Mar 5, 2022)

For what it's worth, here are a few photos of my 3 axis DRO installation.  These are "old fashioned" glass scales installed quite awhile back.  Please excuse the lack of cleanliness - just finished work on 3 cast iron cylinders for the current engine project and that stuff gets everywhere.

Fortunately the back of the table and saddle on my mill are vertical flats; certainly close enough to allow using just shims directly under the scale and read head to get things in alignment.



 


 




The Y scale is mounted to an aluminium bar/plate that is fastened to the knee.  This allowed me to get the mounting plate true and plumb as required without fussing with the scale.  Once all was good the scale could then be bolted to the mounting plate.  A combination of angles and plates makes the connection between the saddle and the read head.




 




The knee scale (Z in my case) is also bolted to a mounting plate that is fastened to the mill column through a couple of standoffs.  This arrangement took a lot of faffing about to get it right given that the standoffs are up against a curved casting and they are different from each other.  It has proven to be an approach though.  The read is connected through another series of angle brackets and plates so the read head is towards the rear of the mill for better protection from swarf.




 


 




The display is mounted to an arm that is bolted to the mill's head mount. Pretty straightforward.  For good measure, I've included a photo of the quill scale.  It is a "caliper-style" scale plugged into its own battery powered LCD display that is stuck to the mill's head with a magnet.




 


 

Enjoy your installation.  Once you've used a DRO there is no going back to dials ... ever!


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

CWelkie said:


> For what it's worth, here are a few photos of my 3 axis DRO installation.  These are "old fashioned" glass scales installed quite awhile back.  Please excuse the lack of cleanliness - just finished work on 3 cast iron cylinders for the current engine project and that stuff gets everywhere.
> 
> Fortunately the back of the table and saddle on my mill are vertical flats; certainly close enough to allow using just shims directly under the scale and read head to get things in alignment.
> View attachment 21678 View attachment 21679 View attachment 21680
> ...



That's all awesome stuff @CWelkie!  It will take me a while to digest everything properly, but I straight up LOVE the idea of mounting the scale slides upside down! It just seemed apparent to me that they would be more solid if mounted flat against the rear side of the table since they were flat already. Of course, when I think about it after looking at your install, the read head to scale interface is only as good as it's weakest link. If the read head has to reach out and then back, it isn't very solid at all. Turning the scale 90° to face downward solves two problems. No need for a shield, and only the scale needs to rotate and then only 90° not 180. So all in all an improvement in overall rigidity. Because the read head doesn't have to articulate, I believe it will also leave lots of room for a way cover. 

That may not work for the Y axis where the read head mount has to be above the scale, but one hurdle at a time! 

I trust I can ask questions as I work out the details.


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## CWelkie (Mar 5, 2022)

Ask away Susquatch … us Hartford guys need to look after each other. <grin>


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## Degen (Mar 5, 2022)

Do you grind in the shop?? If so the fine particulate metal will be attracted even 20 to 30 ft away.

How do you clean it, tape....


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

Degen said:


> Do you grind in the shop?? If so the fine particulate metal will be attracted even 20 to 30 ft away.
> 
> How do you clean it, tape....



Not sure who you are asking @Degen .  If it is me, I do very little grinding inside. Mostly just tool sharpening. It hasn't been a problem. Not yet anyway. Maybe when I grow up.....


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

CWelkie said:


> Enjoy your installation.



First question. Nothing to do with DROs (I think). What is that round handle to the left of your Quill dro in the last photo above?


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Degen said:


> Do you grind in the shop?? If so the fine particulate metal will be attracted even 20 to 30 ft away.
> 
> How do you clean it, tape....



I just took a pinch of grinding dust from my surface grinder and tossed it at my magnetic scale. Some of it did stick, but not much.  The reader heads do have wipers. Guarding against chips and dust is definitely a good idea, but keep in mind that you won't keep it all out, and you'll want to be able to clean. My mill has way covers which keeps the bulk of the chips off, but some always gets in.  Way covers are easy to lift for cleaning, but a fully boxed in chip guard wouldn't be so easy.


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## Susquatch (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I just took a pinch of grinding dust from my surface grinder and tossed it at my magnetic scale. Some of it did stick, but not much.  The reader heads do have wipers. Guarding against chips and dust is definitely a good idea, but keep in mind that you won't keep it all out, and you'll want to be able to clean. My mill has way covers which keeps the bulk of the chips off, but some always gets in.  Way covers are easy to lift for cleaning, but a fully boxed in chip guard wouldn't be so easy.



I think that is good advice Darren. Right now, I'm thinking I'll try to keep the scales upside down as per @CWelkie's X-axis described above. That way I can just blow them off every so often. 

And ya, mine have wipers too.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> And ya, mine have wipers too.


Yes, we have the same DRO and the same scales.  I don't think you'll have a problem mounting them in a conventional manner and adding some shields. You don't need to get crazy. Chips will get on them , not a big deal.


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## ShawnR (Mar 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Ours is a rural dump, nobody cares what you do.
> 
> Once at the city dump i backed in next to a guy who was unloading a whole truck load of slat-wall sheets. I loaded it all up. On the way out, the girls in the scales were super confused because i was way heavier on the way out.


That happened to me at the metal scarp yard years ago when I was building the backhoe. I went there with my torches in the morning, and was like a fat kid in a candy store. ( I was a fat kid so I can say that). When I left around noon, the girl told me she thought I had left out the back way and had thrown  my tare weight away. She asked me what my truck and trailer weighed.... .....We came up to some mutually agreed upon number. I did not realize how long I was in there for.


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## Darren (Mar 5, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> That happened to me at the metal scarp yard years ago when I was building the backhoe. I went there with my torches in the morning, and was like a fat kid in a candy store. ( I was a fat kid so I can say that). When I left around noon, the girl told me she thought I had left out the back way and had thrown  my tare weight away. She asked me what my truck and trailer weighed.... .....We came up to some mutually agreed upon number. I did not realize how long I was in there for.


 I was at coastal steel one time getting a large order, for me anyway. While waiting for it to get put together, I had coffee and shot the shit with the yard foreman. I asked him if i could raid the cutoff bin. He says, help yourself, don't get hurt.  By the time i was done, I thought my tires were going to blowout. Truck and trailer were loaded from cuttoffs and my order. Nobody cared, but i felt special.


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## deleted_user (Mar 5, 2022)

Do a good job buddy, so I can just copy you


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## CWelkie (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> First question. Nothing to do with DROs (I think). What is that round handle to the left of your Quill dro in the last photo above?


When I got the mill it was missing the original handle/knob for the manual quill feed (the one used when the quill drive is engaged).  What you see is the replacement I made.


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## Degen (Mar 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Not sure who you are asking @Degen .  If it is me, I do very little grinding inside. Mostly just tool sharpening. It hasn't been a problem. Not yet anyway. Maybe when I grow up.....


No just a general question to make one think.  Even tool sharpening causes enough ultra fine particles that get air born.  Put a magnet somewhere in the shop and tape a white paper over it, look at it several months later, you'll be surprised how much is collected where the magnet is collected.


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## Susquatch (Mar 6, 2022)

Degen said:


> No just a general question to make one think.  Even tool sharpening causes enough ultra fine particles that get air born.  Put a magnet somewhere in the shop and tape a white paper over it, look at it several months later, you'll be surprised how much is collected where the magnet is collected.



I see. I should check on that. Lots of magnets in my shop. I like magnets. Steel walls hold speed and feed charts, drill charts, etc. Reel magnets for drill chuck keys, drop magnets for dropped tool bits N stuff. Chip magnets to clean up ferrous swarf, etc etc etc.


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## Degen (Mar 6, 2022)

If you do get a build up simple tape picks up the fine dust easily.


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## Susquatch (Mar 6, 2022)

Degen said:


> If you do get a build up simple tape picks up the fine dust easily.



Thank you. I checked for magnet dust today. Tons of it. So much that I started doubting the source. I put a dedicated magnet on a shelf with a piece of white paper over it to see what happens over time. 

In the meantime, tape sounds like a great solution.


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## 140mower (Mar 6, 2022)

I did something similar at the dump once, my response to her questions was "how much do you owe me?" She told me to F off and have a nice day.


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## Degen (Mar 6, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Thank you. I checked for magnet dust today. Tons of it. So much that I started doubting the source. I put a dedicated magnet on a shelf with a piece of white paper over it to see what happens over time.
> 
> In the meantime, tape sounds like a great solution.


Scary isn't it and a real eye opener.  Gives a whole new mean to I'm Ironman.....


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## Susquatch (Mar 11, 2022)

Been a while since I posted progress on this project. It's tax time so that's my priority right now....... FWIW, farm taxes are unbelievably complex. I think those CRA folks know how easy it is to play games on the farm so they want everything broken out so they can track you and find ways to catch you. They make your life miserable at tax time.

Anyway....... as of today here is where I am on the mill DRO project. This takes into account all the stuff you guys have posted here as well as what I have seen on other posts you folks have done on your own mills:

I've pretty much decided to mount my X, Y, and Z (knee only) scales flush to the moving part with a gaurd. Although I really like the inherent dirt advantages of mounting them upside down, reading about jitter and vibration has convinced me to go for maximum rigidity instead with a separately mounted cover (not directly connected to the scale) sort of like @thestelster did. I like what everyone said about using thin sheet metal for the cover. If need be, I could even put a rubber bead seal into it.

I spent ages trying to find a way to use all the factory brackets for the sensors and then I had this very vivid dream that I had a mill! In fact two mills right now!

When I look at the brackets on @thestelster install, all I can say is "WOW"! Those mounts are built like a brick Shi# house! Same goes for most of @CWelkie s X-axis. So I'm now planning to mount the scale directly to the table and machine my own mounts for my read sensor out of solid bar to attach to the saddle. With a custom mounting bracket I don't need to worry about complexity or rigidity. These concerns will be minimal with a solid one-piece bracket. About all I lose is some adjustability - done carefully, that should not matter.

Note that the factory mounting holes for the read head are slotted to provide about 1.4 mm (55 thou) of adjustment to the scale/head spacing - maybe a wee bit more if I remove the shank threads on the screws which I would only do if necessary. Shims might be more effective.

The precise dimensions can be developed as the install progresses. But in general, my current thinking for the X-Axis sensor mount looks like this:






This is a side view looking down the length of the x-axis. It's not really obvious from the drawing, but the bracket will have side ears on it for the bracket to saddle screws.

Unless somebody provides any comments that make me rethink this or doubt myself, I plan to order the bar stock for the read head brackets later today sometime.

The shield is just bent sheet metal as suggested by @Darren & @Brent H. Cheap, easy, and effective in my mind. I don't have a brake or I'd make my own but siding flashing should be easy to find. I have not looked but I bet they already make that stuff with a Z bend in it. If not, I'll make standoffs like @thestelster did. But I'll prolly make a rubber lip seal instead of plywood. 

By mounting the sensor next to the table joint there is lots of room under it for a future way cover. I like @thestelster's cover the way it probably once was. In my mind's eye I see heavy duck canvas - like a heavy tarp. But I'm also on the lookout for a treadmill belt at the dump. We don't have garbage pickup here so I go to the dump once a week anyway. So far nothing there.

But first things first. Get some bar and make a read head bracket. Nice break from doing taxes.


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## Susquatch (Mar 13, 2022)

Got the bar but decided to mount the x scale first. What a HUMUNGOUS PIA!

Drilling for M5 screws into cast iron is a royal pia. Wow. Two drill bits later, only the scale is mounted and even that is only at the ends. No center support just yet.

I made an oak plate to align the drill and tap. Worked just fine (great might be a better word) for the tap, but nfg for the drill. Prolly should have made it in aluminium or brass but didn't want to waste that much metal.

Still have a lotta holes to drill and need new drills anyway. Not much else is gunna happen today. Any better suggestions for drilling small holes (M4) in cast iron?

PS, this is the table and saddle so no drill press - just a battery powered drill.


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## DPittman (Mar 13, 2022)

I know cast iron can vary greatly in hardness/composition, but with all my Asian made machinery I was surprised how easy it drilled and tapped.  Make sure you start with a good sharp bit and when you are already working with such a small size a pilot hole probably isn't worth it.  Center punch it and it should drill okay if you have a decent bit.  The cobalt bits work well on harder material like ss, so if it hardness that's giving you trouble you might try a cobalt bit.


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## whydontu (Mar 13, 2022)

Odd. Cast iron is usually easy to drill and tap once you get through the skin. A touch with a Dremel will remove the skin.

Any chance the table is Meehanite? Looks just like cast iron but can be harder than the hobs of hell.


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## Susquatch (Mar 13, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I know cast iron can vary greatly in hardness/composition, but with all my Asian made machinery I was surprised how easy it drilled and tapped.  Make sure you start with a good sharp bit and when you are already working with such a small size a pilot hole probably isn't worth it.  Center punch it and it should drill okay if you have a decent bit.  The cobalt bits work well on harder material like ss, so if it hardness that's giving you trouble you might try a cobalt bit.



I was actually surprised at how poorly it drilled. I've drilled cast iron before with no problems. Tried several different bits. Made no difference. They are history now. I'll try to get some cobalt drills tomorrow.


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## Susquatch (Mar 13, 2022)

whydontu said:


> Odd. Cast iron is usually easy to drill and tap once you get through the skin. A touch with a Dremel will remove the skin.
> 
> Any chance the table is Meehanite? Looks just like cast iron but can be harder than the hobs of hell.



Never considered that. I have some diamond Dremel bits I could try first. But it drilled difficult no matter how deep I was.

Doubtful that it's anything special like Meehanite. It's a Hartford Clone of the Bridgeport Pulley Drive made in Taiwan.


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## Dabbler (Mar 14, 2022)

If it is meehanite, you will have to buy a carbide drill.  the cobalt ones wil work - for a shallow hole. Been there. burnt the drill bits.  BTW  just because they say 'cutting oil is not needed'  you can cool the drill using 70% alcohol or WD40;  if it is Meehanite, you will need the cooling.


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## Dabbler (Mar 14, 2022)

Some cast iron has a lot of includesa lot of carbides in it, especially if the cooling cycle was rapid.  pretend that it contains them - it would explain the messed up drill bits.  Still an argument for using a carbide bit.


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## Susquatch (Mar 14, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> If it is meehanite, you will have to buy a carbide drill.  the cobalt ones wil work - for a shallow hole. Been there. burnt the drill bits.  BTW  just because they say 'cutting oil is not needed'  you can cool the drill using 70% alcohol or WD40;  if it is Meehanite, you will need the cooling.





Dabbler said:


> Some cast iron has a lot of includesa lot of carbides in it, especially if the cooling cycle was rapid.  pretend that it contains them - it would explain the messed up drill bits.  Still an argument for using a carbide bit.



Hmmmm, I think you are saying that the Hartford could be Meehanite after all, and even if not, it could be something similarly hard. 

I think that changes my drill buying plans for today. Varco is the only place around here that has any hope of stocking carbide or high cobalt. If not, I might have to drive into Windsor hoping that KBC has some. At $2 a liter for diesel fuel right now, those will be expensive drill bits.... I better call ahead.....


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## Darren (Mar 14, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmm, I think you are saying that the Hartford could be Meehanite after all, and even if not, it could be something similarly hard.
> 
> At $2 a liter for diesel fuel right now, those will be expensive drill bits.... I better call ahead.....


 is there a big M on the casting below the ram? 

Sometimes cast iron can have hard spots/imputities that are a bitch to drill.  I've had decent luck with cobalt bits from Napa. 

At $2.25/L here, and 15 mins out of town,  i'm not leaving my yard unless its an emergency.


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## Dabbler (Mar 14, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> At $2 a liter for diesel fuel


I guess that 'delivery' is out of the question...


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## Susquatch (Mar 14, 2022)

Darren said:


> is there a big M on the casting below the ram?
> 
> Sometimes cast iron can have hard spots/imputities that are a bitch to drill.  I've had decent luck with cobalt bits from Napa.
> 
> At $2.25/L here, and 15 mins out of town,  i'm not leaving my yard unless its an emergency.



I will look for the M.

I bought some Cobalt drill bits today. No luck. They do drill but very very slowly and only seem to last for one hole.

Carbide is ordered for delivery on Thursday.

My truck is a 2500 mega cab with the big Cummins in it.


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## Susquatch (Mar 14, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I guess that 'delivery' is out of the question...



Ya, I wanted to go get them so I could get at least one scale installed and working. KBC didn't have stock so delivery it will be.


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## Hacker (Mar 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I will look for the M.
> 
> I bought some Cobalt drill bits today. No luck. They do drill but very very slowly and only seem to last for one hole.
> 
> ...


I have tried these Hymnorq bits off of Amazon and have been pleasantly surprised with them. https://www.amazon.ca/Migiwata-Extr...1647354524&sprefix=drill+bits,aps,164&sr=8-36
I think I used one bit on my install on my mill. The problem is they don't seem have a complete array of sizes.


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## Susquatch (Mar 15, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I have tried these Hymnorq bits off of Amazon and have been pleasantly surprised with them. https://www.amazon.ca/Migiwata-Extremely-Resistant-Straight-Stainless/dp/B078YLRFRD/ref=sr_1_36?crid=W1NSA8SWGUXB&keywords=drill+bits+for+metal&qid=1647354524&sprefix=drill+bits,aps,164&sr=8-36
> I think I used one bit on my install on my mill. The problem is they don't seem have a complete array of sizes.



It may not be a huge problem for me. 1/8 drills are pretty common. If I make 1/8 pilot holes, I can open them up with a regular drill before tapping. That's my thinking right now anyway.


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## Susquatch (Mar 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> is there a big M on the casting below the ram?
> 
> Sometimes cast iron can have hard spots/imputities that are a bitch to drill. I've had decent luck with cobalt bits from Napa.



Can't find any M on the casting anyplace. Prolly doesn't mean much unless it was there. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.......

Hoping carbide drill bits arrive tomorrow.


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## Susquatch (Mar 15, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I have tried these Hymnorq bits off of Amazon and have been pleasantly surprised with them. https://www.amazon.ca/Migiwata-Extremely-Resistant-Straight-Stainless/dp/B078YLRFRD/ref=sr_1_36?crid=W1NSA8SWGUXB&keywords=drill+bits+for+metal&qid=1647354524&sprefix=drill+bits,aps,164&sr=8-36
> I think I used one bit on my install on my mill. The problem is they don't seem have a complete array of sizes.



I tried a cobalt bit already and that didn't really help. But these guys have 1/8 and although that is a smidge too small for a 4mm tap, it will make a decent pilot hole. I have a #29 carbide arriving tomorrow.


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## YYCHM (Mar 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I tried a cobalt bit already and that didn't really help. But these guys have 1/8 and although that is a smidge too small for a 4mm tap, it will make a decent pilot hole. I have a #29 carbide arriving tomorrow.



Are you using a fixed speed drill?  I've never burnt up a HSS bit drilling CI with a variable speed drill.  It's slow going but eventually ends up deep enough.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Are you using a fixed speed drill?  I've never burnt up a HSS bit drilling CI with a variable speed drill.  It's slow going but eventually ends up deep enough.



I'm using a small 12V milwaukee variable speed drill. It's the only thing small enough to fit in there. 

For everyone's info, I'm also using wd40 as a lubricant/coolant. 

It's good that you are asking questions like that Craig. I must confess that it feels really really weird to have such a horrible experience. I've been drilling things all my life - including cast iron. But I feel a little bit like a guy who is drilling concrete who doesn't know about hammer drills. There must be something that I don't know about drilling cast iron - but what is it? 

Hopefully my carbide bits arrive today. From everything I've heard on here and elsewhere, carbide is the way to go.


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## DPittman (Mar 16, 2022)

Ok I'll be the smart ass....do you have your drill in reverse? LOL 

 You must have some really hard cast iron but I'm sure a carbide bit will sail through no problem.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Ok I'll be the smart ass....do you have your drill in reverse? LOL
> 
> You must have some really hard cast iron but I'm sure a carbide bit will sail through no problem.



No but it sure feels like it! LMAO! 

My fingers are crossed on the carbide. I'm gunna be plenty disappointed if it doesn't come before the weekend. I'd really like to get at least one scale working. Besides, it's a great break from doing taxes.


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## Darren (Mar 16, 2022)

what kind of RPM are you running? too slow and it'll burn up bits in a hurry.  For a 1/8" drill the ideal speed in cast iron is 4-5000 rpm. You'd probably be just fine at 1500-2000, but much slower and the bit will suffer. Also, WD40 is not really a cutting lube, although it does work on aluminum to prevent chip welding.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Darren said:


> what kind of RPM are you running? too slow and it'll burn up bits in a hurry.  For a 1/8" drill the ideal speed in cast iron is 4-5000 rpm. You'd probably be just fine at 1500-2000, but much slower and the bit will suffer. Also, WD40 is not really a cutting lube, although it does work on aluminum to prevent chip welding.



I'm not sure my milwaukee will do anywhere near 5000 rpm. But I have not measured it. I'll try to do that later today.

I wasn't imagining that the wd40 would act like a cutting fluid - only as a coolant. I've always heard that cutting fluids were not required on cast iron because of the carbon. But this may well be a part of my problem.

Your comments about the speed might also be important Darren. I did the math which said that my speed should be 4500 (the middle of your suggested range) so I ran my drill at maximum and burned up a regular drill bit.

I dropped the speed to what felt like half that,..... And burned up a drill bit. I dropped it to a few hundred rpm...... And burned up a drill bit. Tried again with cobalt...... And burned up another bit. Fiddle Fkd with sharpening bits and just burned them up too.

In other words, fast or slow or mid range all burn up bits.

Also tried with various levels of pressure - same results.

I have to go to Windsor today (2 hour drive) but I'll measure the actual drill speed later today sometime.

Edit - I REALLY appreciate your suggestions and comments as well as those of others. I'm not used to total failures like this. I really do feel like I'm missing something simple. I've drilled a crap load of cast iron in the past and never had an experience like this one.


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## Hacker (Mar 16, 2022)

I was using a  cordless that runs at 2000 RPM and found that not using any lube worked the best for me. Just speculating here, but the slow speed and lubricant/coolant might work against you.


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## Darren (Mar 16, 2022)

Must be some tough stuff in that cast iron! If you burn up a carbide drillbit, i'd suggest mounting the scale with 3m double sided tape or magnets and just forget drilling LOL


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Darren said:


> Must be some tough stuff in that cast iron! If you burn up a carbide drillbit, i'd suggest mounting the scale with 3m double sided tape or magnets and just forget drilling LOL



Trust me, that tape has crossed my mind....... LOL! 

I don't think I have the guts to try magnets with a magnetic scale though......


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Hacker said:


> I was using a  cordless that runs at 2000 RPM and found that not using any lube worked the best for me. Just speculating here, but the slow speed and lubricant/coolant might work against you.



I initially tried no coolant and burned up the drill bit. That's why I switched to a coolant like wd40 (not cutting fluid). But as you have prolly read, nothing has worked. 

Not ready to give up just yet.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Darren said:


> You'd probably be just fine at 1500-2000, but much slower and the bit will suffer.



Had a few minutes before heading to town and was curious. I measured the cordless drill at 1260 with no load in high speed and 410 at low speed. 

So speed might be the issue. 

I'm thinking carbide will prolly want even more speed so......


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

"some" of the Carbide bits I ordered arrived today. 

1/8 & 11/64 both 113°

Hmmmmm don't know about that angle..... Prolly should not have been so trigger happy when I ordered. 

Also, neither one is really the drill bit I needed to tap a 4mm-0.7 or a 5mm-0.8 hole. So now I have two more worries. 

1. Is 113° ok for HARD cast iron? 

2. Will a #29 HSS Cobalt drill grab in a 1/8" hole in cast iron?


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## Tom O (Mar 16, 2022)

Time will tell… Film at 11:00.
I would think they would work.


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## Susquatch (Mar 16, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Time will tell… Film at 11:00.
> I would think they would work.



No film at 11. Grandkids have arrived for spring break. Nona would cut off my tools.

By reading the rest of this post, you explicitly agree to my privacy policy which stipulates that nobody can divulge my exact activities when I went out to put my tools away and turn on the alarm. In those brief moments I'm pretty sure I dreamed about trying a little dry peck that seemed to work. It's promising......


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## 140mower (Mar 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> No film at 11. Grandkids have arrived for spring break. Nona would cut off my tools.
> 
> By reading the rest of this post, you explicitly agree to my privacy policy which stipulates that nobody can divulge my exact activities when I went out to put my tools away and turn on the alarm. In those brief moments I'm pretty sure I dreamed about trying a little dry peck that seemed to work. It's promising......


What seemed promising?


----------



## ShawnR (Mar 16, 2022)

JB Weld a 1/4" plate (material of your choice) to the cast? It can be drilled and tapped with holes where you need them, ahead of time and mount the scale Brackets to it. I would think 1/4 would give you enough threads to be secure enough


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## Susquatch (Mar 17, 2022)

ShawnR said:


> JB Weld a 1/4" plate (material of your choice) to the cast? It can be drilled and tapped with holes where you need them, ahead of time and mount the scale Brackets to it.



This is a great idea that is infinitely better than permanent tape. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. 

The carbide drill bits are very promising but have to wait a few days longer. Apparently we have some of the grandkids for a few days and I have been assigned to supervise them. However, they are not old enough to apprentice yet, and the bride doesn't think chaining them to a tractor tire while I work on a DRO is a reasonable way to keep them out of trouble.


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 17, 2022)

Oh crap, you mean you don't keep them on chains 24,7?


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## PeterT (Mar 17, 2022)

@Susquatch I didn't quite catch if you are drilling these holes on the a factory machined surface or native casting surfaces? If casting surface, I wonder if this is some skin affected zone where molten CI meets mold. So maybe some embedded silica sand or chilled metal or some such effect that's making it nasty to drill? Now that I think about it, I had one hole that caused me grief, almost like it hit a rock. Maybe a masonry drill would make a better start hole, but either way, might bugger up a perfectly good carbide (machining) drill.

A 'glued on' DRO plate maybe has some merit because you could pre-attach the plates to DRO scale & that could be positioned to irregular casting. The glue thickness makes up the irregularity & molds to the surface. The trick is how to keep it accurately positioned during cure. I would grind the paint (and mystery Bondo) off you so are at native metal. I would also recommend some means to post micro-adjust the scale. Kind of hard to explain but actually actually easy to make - a plate with set screw 'triad' that allows the scale to move in/out or alter its plane once you are fine tuning alignment with a DRO. Newall has an ingenious post that does all this with a single threaded drill hole, but it may not lend itself to your more rectangular scales. (Newall scales are tubes).


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## Susquatch (Mar 17, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I didn't quite catch if you are drilling these holes on the a factory machined surface or native casting surfaces?



For the X-Axis I'm installing now (the 1st of 4 scales) it's the machined rear side of the table and the machined rear side of the saddle. No virgin castings or paint to deal with (yet). The Y and z axis will both involve some virgin surfaces. But one step at a time. 



PeterT said:


> A 'glued on' DRO plate maybe has some merit because you could pre-attach the plates to DRO scale & that could be positioned to irregular casting. The glue thickness makes up the irregularity & molds to the surface.



Yes, if carbide doesn't work I am leaning toward a glue on job. But I won't glue the scale to the mill. I will pre-drill and tap a piece of flat steel to fit the DRO mounting screws and then glue the flat plate to the mill. I don't anticipate any problems doing that. 

My scales come with three small levelling screws on each end. They are built into the scale end caps. They will work fine to adjust the scale to the mounting plate or to the mill directly. 

But again, I'm hoping that the carbide drill will work. Too bad they arrived so late. Otherwise I'd already know where I am at with this.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 17, 2022)

Darren said:


> Must be some tough stuff in that cast iron! If you burn up a carbide drillbit, i'd suggest mounting the scale with 3m double sided tape or magnets and just forget drilling LOL


or velcro


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## whydontu (Mar 17, 2022)

heart-attack pricing but these are probably the solution






						M.A. FORD,1/8 HI-ROC CARBIDE DRILL MA FORD,5-100-20229,KBC Tools & Machinery
					

M.A. FORD,1/8 HI-ROC CARBIDE DRILL MA FORD,5-100-20229,KBC Tools & Machinery




					www.kbctools.ca


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## Susquatch (Mar 17, 2022)

whydontu said:


> heart-attack pricing but these are probably the solution
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ya, that's heart attack pricing. 

I might try that next. I figure I could even sharpen one of those if need be. For now I have oa #29 carbide in a regular twist to get the right hole size.


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## Hacker (Mar 18, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Ya, that's heart attack pricing.
> 
> I might try that next. I figure I could even sharpen one of those if need be. For now I have oa #29 carbide in a regular twist to get the right hole size.


You are right about the price, but sometimes a bit of heart fibrillation is required to get the job done. Will be waiting to hear the out come of this.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Hacker said:


> You are right about the price, but sometimes a bit of heart fibrillation is required to get the job done. Will be waiting to hear the out come of this.


Soon......


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## Dabbler (Mar 18, 2022)

I'm not getting notifications so I have missed the last 3 days of this.  Bravo, @Susquatch for motoring on despite the roadblocks.  Bert had similar problems when he mounted the DRO on his - about the same year, same models, etc.  

It is probably due to the casting method and raw materials used in the casting process.  It is possible they just used Meehanite throughout most of the machine, as Bert had problems with the Y scales as well.  Not so much on the knee, that was easy compared.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I'm not getting notifications so I have missed the last 3 days of this.  Bravo, @Susquatch for motoring on despite the roadblocks.  Bert had similar problems when he mounted the DRO on his - about the same year, same models, etc.
> 
> It is probably due to the casting method and raw materials used in the casting process.  It is possible they just used Meehanite throughout most of the machine, as Bert had problems with the Y scales as well.  Not so much on the knee, that was easy compared.



How did Bert get his mounted? 

Is a carbide drill bit viable in Meehanite or did I waste my money?


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## Dabbler (Mar 18, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> How did Bert get his mounted?
> 
> Is a carbide drill bit viable in Meehanite or did I waste my money?


He burnt out several cobalt drills and then settled for carbide.  He also dulled 2 HSS taps to make the threads in the holes.  He just kept at it until holes were threaded. He muttered a lot about it, as he didn't have any money to do anything with at the time, and needed the mill to make money.

One caution about double sided tape:  I remove tape goo with oil, so make sure that if you do use tape, that it is oil resistant.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> He burnt out several cobalt drills and then settled for carbide.  He also dulled 2 HSS taps to make the threads in the holes.  He just kept at it until holes were threaded. He muttered a lot about it, as he didn't have any money to do anything with at the time, and needed the mill to make money.
> 
> One caution about double sided tape:  I remove tape goo with oil, so make sure that if you do use tape, that it is oil resistant.



I can believe that! My muttering ever since I burned up cobalt drills has not been fit for most normal people's ears. 

No worries about tape. If I do use it, it will be temporary. If I can't get screw holes drilled and tapped for a permanent install, I'll prolly use epoxy.


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## Dabbler (Mar 18, 2022)

You might drill-and-pin, with a press-fit pin or loctited pin.   If the outer part of the pin is tapped, then a retainer screw and washer can be applied.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Great idea! I like it!


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## Dabbler (Mar 18, 2022)

The pin can even be Delrin or other sturdy plastic


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> The pin can even be Delrin or other sturdy plastic



Great point! 

I'm hoping that the bride will let me spend an hour or two in the shop tomorrow. I'm praying that carbide works.


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## whydontu (Mar 18, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> You might drill-and-pin, with a press-fit pin or loctited pin.   If the outer part of the pin is tapped, then a retainer screw and washer can be applied.


Assuming you can drill a slightly larger hole (stronger drill bit), then this seems like a brilliant idea. Spirol pin, threaded stud, some epoxy. Won’t move, but if you have to remove the pin or stud some heat would soften the epoxy.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

There needs to be a little adjustment at the scale itself to achieve parallel motion VS the read head. 

If I combine all your ideas, I think an inside threaded sleeve epoxied into a hole in the casting will work best. Of course, this assumes I can drill a hole at all. If not, then a piece of bar epoxied to the casting will solve both the drilling and the tapping problems. 

Who would have guessed I'd have this problem!


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## Darren (Mar 18, 2022)

If i couldn't drill it...everything can be drilled...but if I couldn't, i'd glue an aluminium bar to the machine.  Or hold it with hard drive magnets, far enough from the ends of the scale...or 3m tape.

Another thought i had earlier, is a mag drill, as silly as it sounds, to make pecking easier. You don't usually peck cast iron, as the chips break on their own, but pecking can reduce rubbing and heat buildup.


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## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> If i couldn't drill it...everything can be drilled...but if I couldn't, i'd glue an aluminium bar to the machine.  Or hold it with hard drive magnets, far enough from the ends of the scale...or 3m tape.
> 
> Another thought i had earlier, is a mag drill, as silly as it sounds, to make pecking easier. You don't usually peck cast iron, as the chips break on their own, but pecking can reduce rubbing and heat buildup.



Wow, and I thought carbide drill bits were expensive! 

But I like it. Lotsa places I could use a mag drill on the farm. Prolly couldn't get it into the space behind the table though. 

No worries, I can prolly peck drill with the small milwaukee and a decent drill guide.


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## Darren (Mar 18, 2022)

I'd let you borrow mine, but i don't have one!


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 19, 2022)

I see Vevor has a Mag drill at a not bad price, not sure of the quality though. Been thinking about picking one up.


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## Hacker (Mar 19, 2022)

The mag drill is a great idea and probably would have worked on the X and Z but I doubt I could have used it on the Y on my machine. Mag bits are expensive. Bought a set from 3/4 to 1 1/2 and I keep them with my wife's jewellery.


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## Susquatch (Mar 20, 2022)

The kids all left at 1pm. I looked at bride and said I am going to the barn. I'll see you tomorrow sometime. She smiled in her knowing way and said ok!

Well, Carbide cuts the cast, but like a snail. So I took a diamond burr as per @whydontu 's suggestion and cut away about a 1/16 of an inch of skin. Then re-applied the carbide drill. THAT WORKED! It was still slow going, but not so slow that I wanted to quit.

At 5:15 I was tapped and ready to attach parts. Here are a few photos.

I made a custom X-Axis read head bracket:
















The assembled and installed X-Axis scale looks like this:






I still need to put a strain relief on the cable and install a shield. Later this week......

Happy Happy!

Y Axis is up next. Should go MUCH SMOOTHER!

A HUGE THANK YOU FOR ALL THE SUGGESTIONS AND THE DISCUSSION! You guys ROCK!


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## Hacker (Mar 21, 2022)

Nicely done and glad to hear that you have solved the drilling issue.


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## Susquatch (Mar 22, 2022)

This morning I tackled the Y-Axis. Zero problems drilling the knee. Well, I say zero, but not really. It drilled with regular HSS just fine, but the casting was quite thin where I chose to drill it. Didn't leave much for putting a screw in. Perhaps worse, when I added the scale, I discovered that the knee had a convex surface where I chose to put the scale so I had to use the tiny little grub screws built into the scale ends - they are there for that purpose.

Anyway, now the Y Axis Scale is installed, levelled, and properly aligned.

Next up is the read head bracket. The bottom of the table apron has a slight 10° slope to it. So I cut a piece of bar stock off with a 15 degree angle cut right into it from the git-go.

Now I have to figure out how to machine the rest of the features into the bracket piece with that dumb angle in it...... But I do get to use a working X-Axis DRO to help me do it!


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## Tom O (Mar 22, 2022)

You could always put some bondo or something like it behind it I just went with the screw adjusters.


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## Susquatch (Mar 22, 2022)

Tom O said:


> You could always put some bondo or something like it behind it I just went with the screw adjusters.



I won't know for sure till I get the read head installed. I want to try and do that yet today. 

If it doesn't work, I might put something like bondo or wood filler behind it. For now it tests ok.


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## Susquatch (Mar 22, 2022)

Finished the Y-Axis Read Head Bracket after working on taxes enough to keep the bride happy.






The back recess and 5 degree angle are to accommodate the slight contour of the bottom of the saddle below the right x-axis crank.






The one screw is slightly hidden by the sensor cable, but I figured it was more important to have the screws line up than it was to have perfect access. There is plenty of access there for an Allen wench. Besides, the bracket can be mounted before the sensor is attached if need be. 

Tomorrow I drill two screw holes in that ultra hard cast iron that the table and saddle are made from. I'm not looking forward to it. Not just because the metal is so hard, but also because it has to be done from the bottom looking up and old men like me are just not all that flexible as they once were.


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## Susquatch (Mar 23, 2022)

Finished drilling and tapping the saddle for the Y Axis bracket. Same issues as before, but patience and carbide held the line. 

Here is the finished install. 






Just need a cable relief and I may do a shield. 

I definitely discovered that the magnetic scales do not like swarf. You can even see the 2mm magnetic pitch!


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## PeterT (Mar 23, 2022)

Somewhere in one of my posts I mentioned pre-drilling mounting plates for adjustment set screws to compensate irregular surfaces or slightly angled (draft casting) surfaces. I'll use your picture as example. Imagine each corner has a tapped hole & set screw. Now you can lightly tighten the main cap screws but micro adjust the plate orientation so the scale is aligned & fine tune it. Its a lot easier than messing with shims. One day you may have to dismantle DRO for whatever reason & you will stand a better chance, or at least easier job of good alignment again. If you feel you want full contact, you could put release film on the casting to protect the Chinese Tremclad & slow set filled epoxy to grout the plate in place. Relieving the mid section the way you did was a good thought.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Somewhere in one of my posts I mentioned pre-drilling mounting plates for adjustment set screws to compensate irregular surfaces or slightly angled (draft casting) surfaces. I'll use your picture as example. Imagine each corner has a tapped hole & set screw. Now you can lightly tighten the main cap screws but micro adjust the plate orientation so the scale is aligned & fine tune it. Its a lot easier than messing with shims. One day you may have to dismantle DRO for whatever reason & you will stand a better chance, or at least easier job of good alignment again. If you feel you want full contact, you could put release film on the casting to protect the Chinese Tremclad & slow set filled epoxy to grout the plate in place. Relieving the mid section the way you did was a good thought.



Yes, I saw that suggestion but misunderstood it. I seem to do that a lot with you. I guess I just need to make a mental note of that to pay more attention to what you write. 

At the time I read your earlier note, I actually replied that my scales have that feature built in. This is the latest "slim" scales. The older magnetic scales were better for that with 4 corner grub screws. 







But now I see that you are referring to the read head bracket, not the scales. Again, sorry I misread that earlier. 

That's a good idea. It's the same principle but applied to the other half of the system. 

You had also suggested a filler. I may do that (too). I like two part wood filler (eg Minwax High Performance Wood Filler) for that purpose. It's cheaper and more forgiving than regular epoxy and can be much more easily machined with simple tools (chisels, files, etc) if necessary. It's also very solid. Either way, shoe wax makes a great release agent. 

To be honest, I didn't even notice that gap. Old men don't see well or in my case bend over to see it at all!  What happens below my waist is usually ignored unless it is painful or enjoyable. The mount is pretty solid despite it. But now it will bug me till I fix it. Thanks a whole lot for pointing that out.......


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## PeterT (Mar 24, 2022)

No worries. Just wanted to point out relatively easy fixture feature that might help with DRO setup. Casting surfaces & drilled mounting holes are typically not great to mount things to in a precise , repeatable manner. And some DRO systems are less tolerant of misalignment or flex.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

PeterT said:


> No worries. Just wanted to point out relatively easy fixture feature that might help with DRO setup. Casting surfaces & drilled mounting holes are typically not great to mount things to in a precise , repeatable manner. And some DRO systems are less tolerant of misalignment or flex.



Still, I owe you an apology for jumping to conclusions. I've said this before: I've observed that you often put a lot of effort into helping others, and sometimes I skim over it because it's more than I feel like I know where you are going. It's a side effect of dealing with technical people and academics all my life. However, it's an injustice to you and I'm sorry for doing it. 

Please accept my apology because I'm pretty sure it will happen again. When it does, just keep going and attribute it to my advanced age, a life filled with way too much information and a learned shortage of patience. Then rub my nose in it a bit harder knowing I actually do appreciate it. 

In this case, if I had read what you said more carefully, I might have made a much better mounting bracket and wouldn't have had to go back in there with wood filler to hide an embarrassing gap. 

Nuff said.


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## Susquatch (Mar 30, 2022)

Z-Axis is almost done. 

X & Y are working fine. I used them both to make the Z-Axis Read Head Bracket. Very cool, but lots to learn and a few old habits need re-learning. 

Here is the scale mounted. The base casting is horrible. So the scale is mounted on three pads of two part wood filler. I used shoe wax on the scale, but wanted it to stick to the base. So no wax there. 






Here is the Z-Axis Read Head Bracket. All I have to do tomorrow is drill and tap the knee for the bracket mounting screws. 









Big day tomorrow......


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## Susquatch (Mar 31, 2022)

Well, the big day and the big moment has arrived. 

I have working X, Y, & Z Axis. 






I deliberately mounted the Z Sensor so it "ALMOST" reaches the bottom of the scale so I have some scale left at the top. There is what looks like a travel limit at the top of the rear Z ways. I suspect that removing it might provide another 2 or 3 inches of travel - or the knee will fall off! Yikes! 

I still need to dress the wiring, provide strain relief, and develop reasonable covers & shields. But it works the way it is.

I also did a quick run to both ends and back with a ball edge finder to ascertain repeatability under normal operating conditions for all three axis. They all work as expected. 

So now I can take my time completing the rest of the system as well as learn how to use it better than I already have. There is so much to learn and old habits to break! 

Last, but not least, this is a four axis system with RPM, so I also need to start planning a Quill scale to combine with my existing Z for a total Z number, and I need to figure out how the RPM System in this thing works so I can use a crank sensor on the drive gear with a conversion interface instead of the hall effect system that came with it. All TBD. 

Very happy for now! 

Many many thanks to everyone who chimed in and helped me get to this point. It was rough going at first so your help is appreciated more than you can guess! 

I'll continue to post here as the system progresses.


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## Susquatch (Mar 31, 2022)

A while back, I bought a bag of cable clips to run Ethernet cables in the house. With modern WiFi, that was a waste. 

But if I replace the wood screw with a machine screw, I should be able to dress all the cables and provide strain relief very nicely. The DRO cable is bit thicker than Ethernet cable but the clamp is adjustable enough to hold it just fine. 

More drilling in undrillobillium.....


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

Well, it's time to install the 4th (quill) axis on my Hartford Mill. I've taken months to get to it cuz I couldn't come up with an ideal design. Hartford would have fired me if I worked for them. A guy I worked for years ago once said: there comes a time in every project when you have to fire all the engineers and get on with production. Engineers are perfectionists and their own worst enemy at times.

So many compromises:
     Access quill stop adjustment
     Quill Scale Visibility
     Rigidity of scales
     Rigidity of sensor
     Repeatability
     Clear of quill feed wheel
     Clear of Turret Face Lugs
     Signal Cable Folding

Well, I think I have it nailed.

Here are some before and during photos.















The read head will go on the quill indicator (see red arrow) in the photo below.






The Mount will look like this:

Please note that I'm standing on the church steps naked with this photo. It is the very first Fusion 3D solid model I have shown you guys. Please be gentle...... 






The threaded hole on top is for a 5/16 post to provide strain relief for the cable. The sensor attaches to the two small threaded holes. The hole in the curved surface is for a 1/4-28 screw to hold the fixture to the quill indicator. The bottom relief is to let the quill stops turn freely. 

I also did my first shop drawing from the 3D model. Wow! Now that's a cool feature !!! 

I'll prolly always do crude drawings right out of my head just because it's easy for me, but Fusion is so much more professional looking!

Move over @PeterT! LOL!!  No worries Peter, at my ripe old age I'll be dead before I catch up to you!


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

Sorry, I forgot the shop drawing. I don't have dimensions yet. Still learning....


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## Tom O (Sep 3, 2022)

Way to go! And don’t worry about being bugged.


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## PeterT (Sep 3, 2022)

One thing I've learned with DRO installation is that irregular casting surfaces can cause grief with the mount alignment & thus translate these issues into the DRO assembly. A good design feature to incorporate some threaded holes in key locations on mounting hardware for set screws (independent to the main mount fasteners). This allows micro-jacking alignment without shims & such. This pays dividends if you ever have to dismantle DRO & re-install. 

You probably know but just in case, rig up a test indicator & raise the knee to validate alignment DRO scale in 3 planes.

Are you going for a scale or a quill type readout? I installed a Mitutoyo quill model on mine but even on sale its a spendy bugger. The main reason was (impatience) Bridgeport style mounting components included which was relatively straightforward installation. If I did it again I would select the Accusize model (same unit as Shars & other sellers). Display is bigger, same features, same effort to install but probably have to make hardware. Dabbler ended up with mine, maybe he can comment on end result.


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## StevSmar (Sep 3, 2022)

PeterT said:


> …A good design feature to incorporate some threaded holes in key locations on mounting hardware for set screws (independent to the main mount fasteners). This allows micro-jacking alignment without shims & such…


I was thinking of doing this, plus it would allow the installation to be “generic” and not specific to a particular manufacturer.
Hopefully I‘ll find out over winter… though I’m pretty slow so it may not be until next winter..


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## Tom O (Sep 3, 2022)

You can also use bondo using a release agent to get it in position.


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

PeterT said:


> One thing I've learned with DRO installation is that irregular casting surfaces can cause grief with the mount alignment & thus translate these issues into the DRO assembly. A good design feature to incorporate some threaded holes in key locations on mounting hardware for set screws (independent to the main mount fasteners).



Also @StevSmar

My scales actually came with integral jacking screws for that purpose. If you look at the photo with the red arrow on it, you can see the three jacking screws on each end of the scale.

I guess for anyone who doesn't have magnetic scales, you might not have even noticed that the scale was actually already mounted in the photo.

I can't really check axial alignment till I get the sensor mounted. But another advantage of magnetic scales is relative insensitivity to alignment. In my experience, they will work relatively well with a misalignment (gap) that varies by about a 1/16 inch. Of course, I will shoot for whatever minimum axial and gap misalignment I can achieve.



PeterT said:


> You probably know but just in case, rig up a test indicator & raise the knee to validate alignment DRO scale in 3 planes.



Yes, I did. But in practice I found the magnetic scales to be virtually immune to minor misalignments. About the only thing I really HAD TO DO was to always set axial alignment. The rest seemed to make no difference that I could measure. Of course, one of the things about the 1 micron scales is that they are deadly accurate. Much more accurate than my tenths indicator. Mind you an alignment error doesn't show up that way so one could be easily fooled into believing numbers that are not really correct despite the number of digits.

My Ditron can also be adjusted (calibrated) for distance related errors - both linear and non-linear. However, I found my other three axis to be dead-on.



PeterT said:


> Are you going for a scale or a quill type readout? I installed a Mitutoyo quill model on mine but even on sale its a spendy bugger. The main reason was (impatience) Bridgeport style mounting components included which was relatively straightforward installation. If I did it again I would select the Accusize model (same unit as Shars & other sellers). Display is bigger, same features, same effort to install but probably have to make hardware. Dabbler ended up with mine, maybe he can comment on end result.



You might want to look at earlier posts on my DRO install. I previously mounted the X, Y, and Z magnetic scales on the table, saddle, and knee of my mill.

But my Readout box has the ability to combine my quill with the knee to provide a total Z for both together.

So I am now mounting the quill scale on the quill. Again, if you look at the photo with the red arrow, you will see that the magnetic scale is already there. I just need to machine and mount my quill adapter for the read head (which is what is shown in the drawings). It might take a few more days owing to other family related priorities. But it's within striking range now.


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## Susquatch (Sep 3, 2022)

Tom O said:


> You can also use bondo using a release agent to get it in position.



I did that for the knee scale - except I used a 2-part epoxy wood filler instead of bondo.


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## Susquatch (Sep 4, 2022)

@PeterT & @StevSmar - this photo might help explain my answers to your questions and advice.

There are already two small machined pads on the quill indicator. The two flats and the two ledges on both pads seem to be quite well aligned to the spindle. See item 1 and 2 in the photo below. I used an indicator mounted on the table and then used the knee to check each of them in two planes (x&y). Checking X & Y at two different knee heights implies Z is ok too.






I took the liberty of adding a 3rd arrow above to show where the read head will mount. If you are familiar with Bridgeport, this part slides up and down with the quill sleeve so it's a good spot (maybe the only spot) to mount the read head.

They are not perfect, but as I said earlier, the scale itself has 2 sets of jack screws, the scale has an adjustment slot (shown as A below), and I made the brackets with adjustment slots in the X direction for its mounting screws too (not shown on any of the photos).





The scale as shown mounted above might not be well aligned yet. Visually, it appears to be, but I want to wait till the read head is mounted and working to make final adjustments using an indicator and the DRO itself. Slots in the scale bracket provide X adjustment and square. Slots in the scale provide Y adjustment and square (see A in the photo). And the jacking screws provide axial and twist alignment.

Also not shown in any of the photos are reliefs in the Angle Bracket for the quill indictator and stop hardware and to ensure a good fit into the top and bottom corners of the pads on the housing.

I'm pretty confident it's all covered. But one never knows for sure till its all done and calibrated.


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

Wooooo Hooooo! My Z-Axis Quill DRO is in!











Not enough room for a cable strain relief after all........ 

Still need to calibrate and dress  the cable. But it doesn't look like I'll need to use the jack screws at all. Everything appears to be square and aligned well to the eye. An indicator will tell the final story.

Here is the Display showing working Z (knee DRO) & U (quill DRO).






And here is the display setup to combine Knee & Quill for a total Combined Z.






Note the tiny little +Z beside U. 

Here it is after moving the knee 1mm.  As you might notice, the total is out by two hundredths of a mm. One could be rounding, the other might be alignment. 






I chose to display both Z and U+Z. I could have simply displayed Z+U as Z only but I sorta liked the idea of having a separate display for the knee. 

The only thing left to do now is calibration, cable dressing, and the Tachometer. The tach will probably take a few years because it must wait for the next head disassembly when I can get at the final spindle drive to install sensor(s). I'll come back and update the thread when I get around to doing the tach. 

*An interesting side story.* Unbeknownst to me, the quill indicator sits at a slight angle to the vertical quill axis. This was apparent to my naked eye when I test fitted the read head bracket. The bracket was sitting at a very slight angle. Worse, the plane of that angle was at yet another angle. Fortunately, I had not yet set the read head offset to be in line with, centered on, or square to the magnetic strip. So I milled the read head mounting surface last. To get the required complex angle plane, I had to put the bracket into a small grinding vise, which was mounted in a bigger sine vise, which was mounted in my milling vise. It was a geometry setup nightmare. Obviously required multiple checks. 

Here is the setup I used. It's not the actual setup because the angles were much much smaller. And it's just a piece of scrap aluminium. This setup is just so readers can get the idea. 






Here is a front view. 






Here is a side view. 






After all the setup, I did a light test cut and test fit first which worked out perfect. Then I did a final measurement and milled off another 73 thou (close enough LOL!) to center the read head on the magnetic strip. To be honest about it, I was surprised that it worked out so well, and ABSOLUTELY THRILLED that I didn't end up having to make two adapter blocks! 

All in all I'm quite "Chuffed"! Which is new word I just learned from @PaulL! Too funny! At first glance I thought it meant Pis*** Off, and then thought why the heck would he be Pis*** Off? Now I know!


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## PeterT (Sep 8, 2022)

Looks good. 
Not quite sure I follow the DRO display. Just to confirm, you have it set up so Z = knee and U+Z = (quill + knee) combined? (as opposed to quill as an independent value)?


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Looks good.
> Not quite sure I follow the DRO display. Just to confirm, you have it set up so Z = knee and U+Z = (quill + knee) combined? (as opposed to quill as an independent value)?



Yes, exactly right.

I was actually quite pleasantly surprised to get that possibility. There is nothing about it in the manual. I expected to set Z for combined knee plus quill and lose the 4th display line. I had already been comiserating about losing the stand-alone knee Z. I've been using it that way for several months and have learned to like seeing the knee setting alone. 

In fact, I initially set it to display Z as knee plus quill. After doing so, Z was indeed knee plus quill but I was shocked to see that U (quill only) was still there!  So I wondered if maybe I could reverse that and sure enough, the option is there!!! So I set it up with Z = Knee only (the way it was before) and U = quill + knee instead and voila!

Very happy with that!


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## PeterT (Sep 8, 2022)

So you're saying it is possible to set it up as Z & U completely independent to one another? Or it forces some permutation of axis 'addition' once the quill axis input is introduced into box?


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PeterT said:


> So you're saying it is possible to set it up as Z & U completely independent to one another? Or it forces some permutation of axis 'addition' once the quill axis input is introduced into box?



Yes. That's what you see in the first photo above of the display.

There is no forced input addition. Only the option to do it if you want.

Also, each and every input can be independently set for resolution and number of digits displayed.

Nobody caught it, but when I talked about the misalignment error above, it turns out that I had not set the quill resolution correctly yet. After doing that, there is no error any more at all. That gives me hope that I won't find any when I put my dial indicator on it.


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

Care to detail a little further how you attached the sensor to the quill indicator?  Does the aluminium block wrap around and the screw apply presure, or did you drill and tap the follower?




I've gotten as far as this, and am contemplating options:






For the short term I'm likely to be moving the sensor to the knee when I prefer that travel distance (most of the time) as my read out doesn't have that fancy U axis.


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Care to detail a little further how you attached the sensor to the quill indicator? Does the aluminium block wrap around and the screw apply presure, or did you drill and tap the follower?



No problem. Here is the quill follower sensor bracket.






It wraps around the right side of the follower. The follower was drilled and tapped for a 1/4-28 socket head screw. Only one screw was needed because the cylinder of the follower aligns the bracket.

The bracket is relieved at the bottom to provide clearance for the adjustable quill stops.

Yes, I ordered a 4 axis DRO. But as I understand it, some 3 Axis DROs have a 4th DB-9 input on the back that can be used via the setup to add two different axis.

You could look at your setup to see if the software is there and if so, you might be able to add the 4th connector even if it isn't physically there now.

If I didn't have the 4th axis capability, I would not have bothered with the quill. It isn't nearly as accurate as the knee crank. Better to just lock it up as needed.


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## Dabbler (Sep 8, 2022)

very nice work!


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PaulL said:


> I've gotten as far as this, and am contemplating options:



It seems like we are thinking very similarly. I think that's especially cool because I really couldn't find any examples of Bridgeport quill installations on the interweb. My DRO supplier (Ditron) was not of any help either.

I chose not to attach my scale directly like you did. Instead I attached a 1/4" thick 2x2 Angle Bar and then machined that to fit. In my case, the quill indicator interfered with good fit of the scale so I needed to space it out anyway.

But more importantly, as @PeterT pointed out, you need something behind the scale in order to be able to use the jacking screws for alignment. Anyway, mounting the L Bracket was way easier for me than mounting a scale directly would have been.

Also, I chose to take my quill indictator system apart. And that in turn discovered some repairs that took priority over installing the 4th axis of the DRO. That said, it also allowed me to remove the follower for much easier drilling and tapping.


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

I have a much shoddier implementation done.  Let's call it field-expedient.




I have a set screw in the bottom of the fork.  I'm certain this will rattle loose.  The bevel on the end of the bar is sufficiently out from what it needs to be for the head that I'm surprised how well it reads - I'm accurate to my gauge blocks on quill travel.  These magnetic scales are *very* forgiving.  Cosine error is also very forgiving over this 5-6" travel length.
I do give up the first 2mm of quill travel/rigidity.  That won't affect my use at all.
Plus the fact that this read head really belongs on my knee, and I don't know what I'll do on my quill after that transition.  But this will let me measure my change gear retainers.


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PaulL said:


> I have a set screw in the bottom of the fork. I'm certain this will rattle loose. The bevel on the end of the bar is sufficiently out from what it needs to be for the head that I'm surprised how well it reads - I'm accurate to my gauge blocks on quill travel. These magnetic scales are *very* forgiving. Cosine error is also very forgiving over this 5-6" travel length.



Very clever. 

I don't think the set screw will rattle loose very easily. But I would worry about knocking it loose when the quill indicator hits the adjustable stops. 

Don't you loose a bit of travel at both ends? Either way it wouldn't bother me either. My quill has 5 inches of travel. I don't think I've ever used it all. 

When I originally mounted my DRO on the knee, my use of the quill dropped off considerably. 

And yes! I find the accuracy, sensitivity, and even the lack of errors of those magnetic scales to be absolutely amazing! Perhaps the biggest win was freedom from the measurement aspects caused by backlash - ya, you still need to consider it and allow for it but not dimensionally.


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## whydontu (Sep 8, 2022)

I have a question for those of us who are much fussier than I am. I see references to cosine errors regarding alignment of scales.

My eyesight isn’t great, but even I could eyeball alignment of a scale easily within 1/16” using a ruler. 

My math says that if the scale is out of alignment by 1/16” over 6”, the hypotenuse of the triangle formed between the scale and the reference surface would be 6.00033”. So the potential error between readout and reality would be 0.00033”. 

My 18” scale on my lathe are aligned within about 0.005” relative to the ways. I can’t envision any machining I could do that the cosine error could be relevant.

A 1/8” misalignment on a 30” X-axis scale would be 0.00026” error.

Am I oversimplifying this? Missing some essential aspect of alignment?


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

whydontu said:


> My math says that if the scale is out of alignment by 1/16” over 6”, the hypotenuse of the triangle formed between the scale and the reference surface would be 6.00033”. So the potential error between readout and reality would be 0.00033”.


I believe you are bang on.  The error is effectively negligible in this alignment.  Certainly it's less than induced between sides of a cutter by less-than-perfect tram, for example.


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Don't you loose a bit of travel at both ends? Either way it wouldn't bother me either.


Yes, I lose a few millimeters at both ends.  I've never reached the bottom, and I'm happy losing the 2mm at the top ;-)


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

whydontu said:


> I have a question for those of us who are much fussier than I am. I see references to cosine errors regarding alignment of scales.



You are a trouble maker! LOL!

But ya, I agree completely regarding cosign error. I'm sorry if anything I said led you to believe I'm concerned about cosine error on my DRO scales. Frankly I don't worry much about it either other than for long distances where it does matter a wee "bit" more - but prolly not anywhere near as much as proportionality. I'm much more concerned about a lot less than a 16th gap variation affecting sensor signal strength and changing the distance reading than I am about cosign error. I'm also concerned about scale proportionality - does an 18" movement display 18.0000 or 18.2467?

Therefore my primary focus adjusting scales to date has been maintaining a constant gap by making sure that the scales are parallel and coaxial to the relative path of the sensor. That said, magnetic scales don't seem to be that sensitive to gap error so maybe even that is a complete and utter waste of my time and effort...... LOL!

The jury is still out on the issue of linearity and proportionality. My unit can be programmed to compensate for it so I suspect the issue is bigger than I would have guessed. We will see.


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> The jury is still out on the issue of linearity and proportionality.


And this is the piece I don't know how to measure.  I can pull out my longest gauge block and check over that length, but that's it.  So I can adjust for the error over 4", but on an X axis with 36" of travel that doesn't seem particularly useful.


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## Susquatch (Sep 8, 2022)

PaulL said:


> And this is the piece I don't know how to measure.  I can pull out my longest gauge block and check over that length, but that's it.  So I can adjust for the error over 4", but on an X axis with 36" of travel that doesn't seem particularly useful.



You have to promise not to laugh.......

I use a long shaft indicator for distances less than 3 inches, a vernier for distances up to 8 inches and...are you ready...... a laser for longer distances. It's easily accurate enough for my long distance needs.

I wouldn't mind having a few long standards for comparisons though.


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## PaulL (Sep 8, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You have to promise not to laugh.......
> 
> I use a long shaft indicator for distances less than 3 inches, a vernier for distances up to 8 inches and...are you ready...... a laser for longer distances. It's easily accurate enough for my long distance needs.
> 
> I wouldn't mind having a few long standards for comparisons though.


It's good that you saw the light!


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## thestelster (Sep 9, 2022)

I commend you guys with the intricate quill DRO set ups.  I planned on doing it as well, but I decided to cobble up something to test if I would really make use of it.  Yes, its quite useful especially for drilling to exact depths.  But I haven't had the opportunity (=lazy) to make a more stable set up.  In the photos, I have the bar clamped to the quill threaded bolt, and the reading head held on by a magnet.  Pretty red-neck, but it works.


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Pretty red-neck, but it works.



Hey, if it works, it works! 

But ya, soon enough you will be making something better than either of us have done! 

To your overall point though. I have absolutely no idea why I took 50 years to figure out how useful a DRO is. Never mind the fancy patterns. Ya, they are nice. But the sheer amazing ability to do two simple edge findings (for x & y and Z if you have it), and then go where you wanna go is simply a complete new paradigm shift! 

I LOVE MY DRO!


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## whydontu (Sep 9, 2022)

Thing I love about a DRO is finding centre. I machine a lot of pipe flanges, and always have to find centre in the flange I.D.  

DRO:

Bolt flange to mill table
put edge finder roughly in the centre of the i.d.
Lock axis c-d
move edge finder to touch around A
zero DRO a-b axis
move edge finder to touch B
note DRO reading, move left until DRO reading is half
zero DRO
Lock axis a-b
move edge finder to touch around C
zero DRO c-d axis
move edge finder to touch D
note DRO reading, move back until DRO reading is half
zero DRO
done - centre of a hole, true to I,D, O.D, and bolt circle

Takes less time to do than describe


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2022)

whydontu said:


> Takes less time to do than describe



Mine has a divide by two function built right in. Zero on any edge, go to opposite edge, divide by 2, set axis. All done that axis. Repeat for other axis. 

Nice thing about doing both sides that way is that tool Width (or edge finder width) doesn't matter. Settles out of the broth.


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## Dabbler (Sep 9, 2022)

allright you guys...  I did it:


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## Susquatch (Sep 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> allright you guys... I did it:



Oh my..... That's BEAUTIFUL! 

But just so you know.......


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## Darren (Sep 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> allright you guys...  I did it:
> 
> View attachment 26375



Ordered one today too. Took advantage of the KBC coupon - 100 off of 575. Got some way oil, an 8" Mitutoyo caliper, Noga too. Free shipping too.


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## Dabbler (Sep 9, 2022)

I just couldn't resist the $142.51


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