# Here is an idea to help people put a monetary value on machine tools.



## TorontoBuilder (Nov 30, 2022)

So the idea goes like this.

Create a thread "Price evaluation requests"

All owners or their representatives with a machine/tool they wish to obtain a price evaluation for must submit the following information at a minimum to the forum:

A photo of the entire machine and a close up showing the make and model number, and
other close up photos of details and accessories if available, and
the geographic location (city) the machine is located, and
the machine's location on the property (shed, garage, basement, second floor bedroom), and
they must submit their contact information to the moderators and agree to binding agreement to provide the ultimate sales price in order to use the service.

Now, here is where it gets both interesting and actually becomes a potentially valuable tool people will want to use rather than a bunch of posts saying "well in timbucktu this would be 1 million dollars." with zero evidence to back such a statement up.

Only forum members can reply, and
a fee shall be paid in order to submit a guess.
members can ONLY reply with an Exact price to the penny that they think the machine/tool should/would/will sell for, and 
suggested fee is between 5-10% of the value guessed by the member. 

Example, with 5% fee. A person posts a photo of a late model 7x12 lathe. A member wishes to advise the seller the value is $1000.00, and must pay $5.00 in order to provide the answer. WAIT WUT?? 

Who will do that? 

People who want to 'earn" the pot of money once the machine is sold. The person whose evaluation was closest to the sale price earns the "fee" for services rendered.

Why this scenario will work, but wont ever happen here because of the billing required.

People like to gamble, and they like to win. Lotteries and sports betting has made a number of addicts who will eat such a system up...

Most members here think they know everything especially prices. They even know regional prices and will adjust their evaluations based on regional price differences, location and accessibility issues in order to try to win

The evaluations given will be more thoughtful, accurate and useful to the sellers. But the sellers are not bound in any way to sell for a certain price. They are given the best guidance possible and can do with the information as they please.

Now if people need more information questions may be submitted via the moderator.

I believe this system will yield the most useful guidance to sellers without having to track every sale over the last 10 years which is impossible... I know, I try. It weeds out low value comments and comments from people who are just wandering by without a clue. 

It also eliminates posts saying give me a price for my car, but I wont tell you the age, the mileage or accident history, unless well you actually like such posts and the discussions they bring... like I had that same car back in 1968 and I paid 6K for it


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## eotrfish (Nov 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Example, with 5% fee. A person posts a photo of a late model 7x12 lathe. A member wishes to advise the seller the value is $1000.00, and must pay $5.00 in order to provide the answer.


Is this the “new math” we’ve been hearing about?


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## Tom Kitta (Nov 30, 2022)

I think you mean 1/2 % or 0.005 - when I evaluated some equipment for a member I roughly was given a thank you gift of that value. 

I guess it could be more if member has to come in physically and evaluate the machine.


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## Darren (Nov 30, 2022)

So you want people to pay to answer someones question? 

I'm guessing that the answers to the threads about the Colchester earlier today triggered this. I think everyone offered reasonable opinions to a question that was asked. Are you upset because you were interested in buying it? Does that make our opinions invalid?


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## Degen (Nov 30, 2022)

To be honest, lets be fair, while I have no problems in making a profit (even huge profit) on someone, this honestly goes against my ethics.

I find that that this is form of usery.

If we are going to give suggestions, lets do it in good will for the group.  I am on the group to share and be shared with.  I am not here to make a profit of members new or old.

I'm sure that most of the well respected members likely feel the same.


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> So the idea goes like this.



Ideas like this sometimes lead to others and who knows what it might evolve into. Sometimes they bomb too. Regardless of that, there is no stomach amongst the admin staff for doing this here on Canadian Metal Workers. It's hard enough to monitor and delete all the spam and garbage our forum attracts and do all the maintenance that makes the forum run smoothly.  But handling money, keeping track of who said what first, managing and policing the data submissions, etc etc is quite a bit more than we want to take on. 

However, nothing would prevent you from setting up a dedicated forum of your own to do this kind of thing. You never know where that might lead. 

I'd bet that you already know that managing a web site and a forum is a whole nuther skill set from being a machinist. But I'd also be willing to bet its well within your abilities. You can start by looking into buying a domain and hosting service. Many hosting services even come with add-on forum software as well as e-commerce tools to support the monetary aspects of your idea. Just for starters, I'd suggest looking into whc.com (web hosting Canada). This service supports all of the above. 

Disclaimer - I use whc myself for the websites I manage but I am not affiliated with them and make no commission from recommending them.


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## Darren (Nov 30, 2022)

What would it take to start a machinery appraisal business?  One shop where I worked offered me tool insurance as an incentive. Insurance company wanted an appraisal, but I was unable to find one. They accepted photo's, videos, and receipts as replacement value in the end.


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## Susquatch (Nov 30, 2022)

Darren said:


> What would it take to start a machinery appraisal business?  One shop where I worked offered me tool insurance as an incentive. Insurance company wanted an appraisal, but I was unable to find one. They accepted photo's, videos, and receipts as replacement value in the end.



Sorta what I was thinking. It's a missing business niche that might evolve. Who knows? We live in a world where a garage book store can evolve into Amazon.......


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 30, 2022)

Degen said:


> To be honest, lets be fair, while I have no problems in making a profit (even huge profit) on someone, this honestly goes against my ethics.
> 
> I find that that this is form of usery.
> 
> ...


I'll pass your worries along to the appraisal industry...

ps the people getting the appraisal dont pay a thing... the people guessing do and it is voluntary to guess.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 30, 2022)

Darren said:


> What would it take to start a machinery appraisal business?  One shop where I worked offered me tool insurance as an incentive. Insurance company wanted an appraisal, but I was unable to find one. They accepted photo's, videos, and receipts as replacement value in the end.


They have appraisal services especially for machine tools. Usually associated with auction houses. 

The problem is most people dont know how to access such services. I offered to refer the seller to both an appraiser and two different auction houses that specialize in machine tool auctions if they wanted to go that route too...


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 30, 2022)

Degen said:


> To be honest, lets be fair, while I have no problems in making a profit (even huge profit) on someone, this honestly goes against my ethics.
> 
> I find that that this is form of usery.
> 
> ...


usuary eh, please do explain how this idea takes advantage or uses anyone, 

That's the second person here that implied im immoral and try to cheat people... and yet I get censored for pointing it out...

I remember why I left the first time.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> So the idea goes like this.
> 
> Create a thread "Price evaluation requests"
> 
> ...


yeah bad math... that should read $50 bucks.


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## Degen (Dec 1, 2022)

@TorontoBuilder

I found your lathe, great price but you have to give $50.00 to get the info  , just kidding did't want to get your hopes up, but this is the same as the idea you suggest.

Does this seem right you got to pay for help from members?

I make part of my money making certain products (I own the patents) approach me to get one you pay (this is why I don't fully state what I do, though a few members privately do), approach for help on the site, non business related, I do what I can freely.

So its not about money per say, just the why where and how.

Do it as a business, no problem, its business.

Do it on the site, its not.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

Degen said:


> @TorontoBuilder
> 
> I found your lathe, great price but you have to give $50.00 to get the info  , just kidding did't want to get your hopes up, but this is the same as the idea you suggest.
> 
> ...


you clearly don't understand the concept... maybe reread my post a few times?  and no one said on these forums. In fact the idea is copyrighted and being pursued elsewhere.


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## Degen (Dec 1, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> you clearly don't understand the concept... maybe reread my post a few times?  and no one said on these forums. In fact the idea is copyrighted and being pursued elsewhere.


Copyrighted.....Funny......this is called consulting good luck with that one in court.


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## thestelster (Dec 1, 2022)

The concept sounds kinda a cool.  It has aspects of the game show, "The Price is Right", where the contestants try to guess the price of the object on display, and the one that gets closest to it, wins.  The contestant probably has to pay to get into the studio, with the hopes of winning.  In your scenario, the winner (person who has the most accurate evaluation) gets a kick back.  The owner of the machine gets an accurate value of what it should sell for.


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## Dan Dubeau (Dec 1, 2022)

1 Dollar, Bob.


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## Dabbler (Dec 1, 2022)

I have  have dim view of this idea.  I give my opinions to people, both buying and selling, for free.  I've been buying and selling machine tools for well over 30 years.  I have a fair network of friends that have also bought and sold used machines, and also help people out.  

Everyone can have an opinion as to value;  a more accurate one can be had by an in-person evaluation.  

I like offer my help to people on this forum.  I also help friends outside the forum.  But few others.


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## ShawnR (Dec 1, 2022)

If I can help someone by saying what I paid for a machine, I am more than happy to do that. I have gained a way more from this forum than I have contributed. I did not read the entire proposal but not sure how pricing of a piece of equipment in one party of the country compares to the same equipment in my area. We don't get many options in my area so I would pay more if I did not have to drive 2 days to get it. 
The best price or valuation of a piece of equipment is what both parties feel good about. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 1, 2022)

You just put way more thought into this that 99% of sellers who are not going to make any effort to figure out what the value is.   3% are too low, 96% too high.  I lie prone in weeds, ,cash hand, waiting for the 3%. 

The market is a shadow of its former self.  Ten years ago it seemed every week you could buy a full to the brim roller box for $400 - $500.  Did bought many times to build my shop up and sold the duplicates.  Nowadays it seems everyone expects to be able to retire off of Gramp's tools.


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## Perry (Dec 1, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Nowadays it seems everyone expects to be able to retire off of Gramp's tools


Now days everyone HAS TO retire off of Gramp's tools.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

thestelster said:


> The concept sounds kinda a cool.  It has aspects of the game show, "The Price is Right", where the contestants try to guess the price of the object on display, and the one that gets closest to it, wins.  The contestant probably has to pay to get into the studio, with the hopes of winning.  In your scenario, the winner (person who has the most accurate evaluation) gets a kick back.  The owner of the machine gets an accurate value of what it should sell for.


It's designed to appeal to those who are addicted to sports betting... it mimics the "I'm smarter than everyone else" aspects of sports book games



Mcgyver said:


> You just put way more thought into this that 99% of sellers who are not going to make any effort to figure out what the value is.   3% are too low, 96% too high.  I lie prone in weeds, ,cash hand, waiting for the 3%.
> 
> The market is a shadow of its former self.  Ten years ago it seemed every week you could buy a full to the brim roller box for $400 - $500.  Did bought many times to build my shop up and sold the duplicates.  Nowadays it seems everyone expects to be able to retire off of Gramp's tools.




"Everyone expects to retire off of gramps tools" does seem apropos of some.  I'd say it is 50/50 right now. Certainly over the last few years people think covid has a huge influence on availability and inflation.

I know the woman's brother kept saying "covid made prices skyrocket" but that is not the case of the lathe market here. Sadly I forgot to print off several sales sheets I had of recent Colchester sales to give the woman just as I for I forgot to give the woman the sales sheet for the Modern 1440. For what we offered we would likely have been better off buying a new modern lathe. But we don't need a new lathe if a used will suffice, and we were trying to do our part. We made it clear though that we would not be increasing our price if she wanted to get several potential buyers into a bidding war.

At this point I've already decided that a new machine is the better option, and I just need to convince my brother to let me put a couple grand into the purchase to make that happen. Newmarket would be a far easier pick up.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 1, 2022)

If its was me, that offer is off the table.  It would be something less for the time and gas she wasted.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> If its was me, that offer is off the table.  It would be something less for the time and gas she wasted.



We can't change an offer once made, but we made it clear, we're not waiting around for her to try to find a better offer. There is one more Colchester coming up at auction. It's not what we want, but it is there.

And I may have a line on another one if the message I got in reply to my kijiji ad is true.


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## Mcgyver (Dec 1, 2022)

Maybe you don't want to, but sure you can.  An offer has a irrevocable time/date.  Might be unstated, by she can't expect to come back to you ten years from now and say yes.   Not telling you what to do, but for me, if I'm standing there after my interest as a buyer was solicited and I drove all that way there and made an bona fide offer, the irrevocable time is the end of that meeting unless state otherwise.  In doing so, you wouldn't have been the unethical one.

That's my view (with an lifetime of commercial, professional, ethical, negotiation).  But we all beat to our own drummers.


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## trlvn (Dec 1, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> At this point I've already decided that a new machine is the better option, and I just need to convince my brother to let me put a couple grand into the purchase to make that happen. [Modern Tool in] Newmarket would be a far easier pick up.


I'm not saying I disagree but I'm interested in your reasoning.  Modern Tool is importing lathes from China.  When I got my Craftex this year, I disassembled, cleaned and lubricated most of the working parts of the lathe.  There were small chips and grit in a lot of spots and one large chip in the 3-jaw that made it almost impossible to operate.  I think I'm going to have to re-make the locking mechanism for the tailstock.  The machine is OK but certainly not perfect out of the crate.  In the longer term, lots of people seem to have problems with the motor control electronics.

If I had been able to find a similar-sized older machine from a respected British maker--and pay less--it would have been a tough decision. It would depend on the overall wear on the old machine and whether there were any obvious faults.  

In effect, both old and new machines need to be checked and cleaned...albeit for different issues.  

What is making you lean toward the new machine?

Craig


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

trlvn said:


> I'm not saying I disagree but I'm interested in your reasoning.  Modern Tool is importing lathes from China.  When I got my Craftex this year, I disassembled, cleaned and lubricated most of the working parts of the lathe.  There were small chips and grit in a lot of spots and one large chip in the 3-jaw that made it almost impossible to operate.  I think I'm going to have to re-make the locking mechanism for the tailstock.  The machine is OK but certainly not perfect out of the crate.  In the longer term, lots of people seem to have problems with the motor control electronics.
> 
> If I had been able to find a similar-sized older machine from a respected British maker--and pay less--it would have been a tough decision. It would depend on the overall wear on the old machine and whether there were any obvious faults.
> 
> ...



What makes me lean towards new is the time consuming search, utterly despicable registration fees, USD auctions, huge buyer's premiums, hours of driving and gas for inspection after inspection... and sellers with nearly 40 year old machines who want almost new prices. New equipment comes with warranty, and one thing I know if how to inspect equipment for issues covered by warrantees and get them dealt with.

Then there is a lot to be said for getting a taper attachment with your lathe, and a follow rest and chucks that are not all chewed up, rusty and battered, and a variable speed option without having to modify a lathe yourself, and the option to get a 2" bore.

I also have an immediate need for a lathe, and ascribe to the definition of insanity usually attributed to Einstein

In regard to this specific lathe I believe two issues are at play that mean we never had a chance to buy it in the first place. I very much suspect after not hearing back from the seller today, and her brother's oft repeated comments that covid has caused prices to skyrocket, that there is no fair price we could have offered that the woman would accept after her brother's input. Let me tell you we made a generous offer based on recent comparable sales

In hindsight I more suspect though, based on some other clues, that the woman was only trying to ascertain a valuation in order to arrive at a price to be paid by another interested party (a tool and die maker friend of her husband, or the neighbour). We were told a tool and die maker had already seen the lathe and was said to have loved it. When the woman said she had to "check" before she would accept our offer I an certain she meant she had to give the other person the opportunity to pay the price we offered.

OH and please recall, this lathe is not our preferred lathe. We wanted a 10 to 15 year newer lathe with the newer model design, and those lathes are much harder to find.


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## Tecnico (Dec 1, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I know the woman's brother kept saying "covid made prices skyrocket" but that is not the case of the lathe market here. Sadly I forgot to print off several sales sheets I had of recent Colchester sales to give the woman just as I for I forgot to give the woman the sales sheet for the Modern 1440.



It looks like this deal may be going sideways but I'd just like to observe that your approach to establishing the going rate objectively by market transactions/data is very good - especially when you are dealing with the family having to dispose of their loved one's equipment and attempting to get the best value for it (and I mean fair to all).  Market value in writing, based on actual sales is the least ambiguous and least adversarial for lack of better word, way to establish a credible basis for the offer.  It counters the arbitrary opinions like Covid's impact etc., providing facts and is valuable especially when the seller doesn't have a good idea of the value.  Cuts out some he said - they said haggling over opinions.

I know this is effective - and fair.  When I was shopping for my mill I discussed price with the family and one (deciding) member was adamant that the machine was worth their asking price based on their "research".  I politely thanked them for their time and asked if I could leave my research with them and then left contented that I had walked away from a machine that I would not buy at an unrealistic price.  I reconciled that it was still good experience to make the trip.

To my pleasure, the next day I got a call to come and get  my machine - at my price.  I think that giving the family time to go over my market info in private was also important in saving face.


Now, another related thought:  I'm not near the (respectfully....) geezer stage or planning on kicking off any time soon but I have had the thought that I should prepare a divestiture plan in case my other half is faced with selling off my tools at some point.  I'm thinking at least a portfolio of equipment with particular attention paid to the big ticket items with photos, description/features and market info, basically what's needed to write a proper advertisement and where to advertise.  A place like this group is a good place to start.   Anybody have an exit strategy?

@TorontoBuilder , hope your deal works out for the best in the end, whatever that turns into.

D


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 1, 2022)

What I've been trying to do, not very successfully, is keeping the price sticker on what I have or writing the price I paid for something.
Say I buy a micrometer for $100.  Ten years later that brand of micrometer goes for $200.  What's a fair price for the disposal of my asset?  Especially if I used it once per month for 10 years.  ie. not a scratch on it.
The low ballers will come to an estate sale and claim it's old and worth 10% of what I paid trying to score it for $10.  They know full well the same device new is $200 plus shipping and taxes.


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> It looks like this deal may be going sideways but I'd just like to observe that your approach to establishing the going rate objectively by market transactions/data is very good - especially when you are dealing with the family having to dispose of their loved one's equipment and attempting to get the best value for it (and I mean fair to all).  Market value in writing, based on actual sales is the least ambiguous and least adversarial for lack of better word, way to establish a credible basis for the offer.  It counters the arbitrary opinions like Covid's impact etc., providing facts and is valuable especially when the seller doesn't have a good idea of the value.  Cuts out some he said - they said haggling over opinions.
> 
> I know this is effective - and fair.  When I was shopping for my mill I discussed price with the family and one (deciding) member was adamant that the machine was worth their asking price based on their "research".  I politely thanked them for their time and asked if I could leave my research with them and then left contented that I had walked away from a machine that I would not buy at an unrealistic price.  I reconciled that it was still good experience to make the trip.
> 
> ...


Dave I think an exit strategy is vital... to be fair to your partner/spouse or other family, whether to maximize the value of your estate or to make the disposal of assets easier. To identify people you may want to gift your prized possession to, or those who can help dispose of your collection in exchange for some material benefit... 

My brother and I plan to give everything to the surviving person, and then to dispose of through sales of high value items and gifts to friends if they're still around. I still need to get one of those insurance inventory forms to complete including photos, because we also need updated contents insurance now


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> What I've been trying to do, not very successfully, is keeping the price sticker on what I have or writing the price I paid for something.
> Say I buy a micrometer for $100.  Ten years later that brand of micrometer goes for $200.  What's a fair price for the disposal of my asset?  Especially if I used it once per month for 10 years.  ie. not a scratch on it.
> The low ballers will come to an estate sale and claim it's old and worth 10% of what I paid trying to score it for $10.  They know full well the same device new is $200 plus shipping and taxes.



IF your goal is to maximize the resale value to the estate you absolutely need a software based inventory program that you must update annually with updated resale values of the high priced items. I've been doing this for years but without the software program. It is difficult to keep up with so every year I drop tracking of any item not worth at least $250. Set your limit at your comfort level and time commitment capacities


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## TorontoBuilder (Dec 1, 2022)

I dont remember if I posted this on an open forum, but in order to even get the woman's name I sent verifiable sales info to the woman's representative. I'm not sure if he passed that along to her, but I sent this and other info:

Here is a much newer model Colchester lathe of the same size. this one was a 575v model built in the year 2000, and had many accessories including a digital read out worth more than $1500 and was in very good condition. It sold for 5100 plus totalling about $6200









Here is a Colchester lathe from the same era, but larger 7.5 HP motor rather than the 5 HP motor in your neighbours lathe.

You can verify the sale price here:
https://hibid.com/lot/137090857/colchester-triumph-2000-lathe?ref=catalog

It is 15"x50" lathe whereas your neighbours is a 13"x40" lathe... generally larger lathes cost more, but they also take up more space so there are fewer buyers for them.

This lathe was in decent shape, and had a digital read out. The lathe only sold for $3300 plus fees, so about $4100 total.







Since I forwarded them the link to the final sales price the auctioneer has taken down the information... they really are a special type of secretive..


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