# Rust is the Enemy



## Susquatch (Jun 22, 2021)

Humidity is a constant challenge living here in SW Ontario. Humidity breeds rust like an invasive species.

I saw a thread just now by @Johnwa about this VERY COOL Collet Box he made. I am SOOOOO jealous! Not just because the box is REALLY COOL, but also because I'd be terrified of putting my collects into an enclosed container of any kind in the hot humid climate I have here in SW Ontario. 

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/collet-box.3590/unread

I've tried to handle humidity and rust in numerous ways by:

1. Keeping tools and bits well oiled. Spray oil is awesome stuff but can be hard to find. Remington sells a nice spray-on gun oil that is convenient. WD40 sucks cuz it's gone in no time. For long term storage "Fluid Film" seems to work well - it can be had in spray-on form too. 

2. Using VOC chips that put rust inhibitor vapours into the air to penetrate micro cracks to stop rust. They can be hard to find. And they dry out too fast.  But they work quite well which is why many products are shipped with them. I just wish I could find a bulk supply of the liquid so I could put a drop of the stuff onto the old chips to replenish them. 

3. Dessicants to absorb moisture. These work well too but they are a PIA. They go stale way too fast. You can bake them to remove the moisture they absorbed but this is sooooo inconvenient to do. I even bought a special counter top oven to do this, but the wife saw it and confiscated it. Apparently men are not allowed to use kitchen tools in the shop. I did find a Dessicants device that could be plugged in to refresh it, but the cost of getting enough of them was prohibitive. 

4. Keeping my shop slightly warmer than outside. With reasonable air exchanges, keeping the shop warm keeps the humidity above the dew point. But rust still happens. On top of that SW Ontario summers are way too hot already. No sane human being would heat a shop that is already too hot. 

5. Air Conditioners can be set to dehumidify and cool, but air-conditioning a huge work shop is not really practical. Dedicated dehumidifiers are just too small for a large shop. 

6. Keeping things like boxes and drawers slightly open so that humid air cannot get trapped and condense as temperatures go down. I love to keep stuff in drawers and boxes. But that seems to encourage rust. Basically, closed containers trap humid air which can condense as temperatures drop for whatever reason causing rust.

7. Small space heaters and even light bulbs can be used in large cabinets to raise the temperature enough to be above the dew point. This is a great solution but only works in very large containers like cabinets. It isn't practical for most other storage systems. 

That pretty much summarizes what I do and don't do and why. But I suspect this group of people have other better ways to deal with rust. I'd love to hear about them! Hopefully others can benefit from the discussion too!


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## Canadium (Jun 22, 2021)

It's an interesting question. I also live in southern Ontario and also have problems with stuff rusting. However my take on the process has been slightly different so far. I always imagined that in my case it was largely a consequence of having an unheated garage. I have an attached poly house which warms it up dramatically on sunny days. So I thought that what was happening is that steel got cold overnight but was slower to warm up during the day than the ambient air. Therefore as the air warmed up again moisture from the air condensed on the cold steel and voila rust begins. I have always assumed that if the temp in my garage was at a more constant level then rusting tools would be much less of a problem. Unfortunately heating the garage would be very expensive. I've tried to reduce the problem by keeping steel stuff covered in plastic. This seems to work to some extent but is very inconvenient when I want to use the tools.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 22, 2021)

I’ve started using gun cabinet desiccant packs in my toolbox. I run a dehumidifier in the shop into a 4” floor drain. On the lesser used tools I’ll spray Fluid Film or similar on them. If I leave the shop door shut it stays 10-15 degrees cooler in there plus the dehumidifier running keeps it way drier. One of the neighbours had his doors open last week and had almost 1/4” of water on his floors, yet mine were bone dry 

The gun cabinet desiccant packs I’ve had for a couple years now and haven’t had to dry them once so far


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## Susquatch (Jun 22, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I’ve started using gun cabinet desiccant packs in my toolbox. I run a dehumidifier in the shop into a 4” floor drain. On the lesser used tools I’ll spray Fluid Film or similar on them. If I leave the shop door shut it stays 10-15 degrees cooler in there plus the dehumidifier running keeps it way drier. One of the neighbours had his doors open last week and had almost 1/4” of water on his floors, yet mine were bone dry
> 
> The gun cabinet desiccant packs I’ve had for a couple years now and haven’t had to dry them once so far



If your dessicant packs are still working after a few years, it's obvious that your dehumidifier is working EXTREMELY well! Brand, make, model please!


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## Tom Kitta (Jun 22, 2021)

In Alberta we are a bit drier. The only problem with rust occurred when I had unheated garage. Once it got heated no major issues. I still spray "rust inhibitor" on stuff or just put some light oil if they are not to be used in a while. But heavy or even medium rust does not happen anymore. 

In ON I would consider dehumidifier in summer time. With very humid days it is inevitable that at night you get condensation - no one expects the garage (or wants) to be at daily 30C.


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## Susquatch (Jun 23, 2021)

Canadium said:


> It's an interesting question. I also live in southern Ontario and also have problems with stuff rusting. However my take on the process has been slightly different so far. I always imagined that in my case it was largely a consequence of having an unheated garage. I have an attached poly house which warms it up dramatically on sunny days. So I thought that what was happening is that steel got cold overnight but was slower to warm up during the day than the ambient air. Therefore as the air warmed up again moisture from the air condensed on the cold steel and voila rust begins. I have always assumed that if the temp in my garage was at a more constant level then rusting tools would be much less of a problem. Unfortunately heating the garage would be very expensive. I've tried to reduce the problem by keeping steel stuff covered in plastic. This seems to work to some extent but is very inconvenient when I want to use the tools.



I think you have just been lucky. I have a hard time understanding how covering stuff in plastic really helps unless your conditions are just right. In my mind, a plastic sheet just traps moist air in with the tools where it can more easily precipitate water as it cools down. 

It is true that putting cold things into a plastic bag before bringing them inside to warm air stops condensation from forming on the cold metal but that's only because cold air doesn't hold much water and the cold air trapped in the bag gets drier as it warms up. 

But the reverse is true when it cools down. In this situation, you want it to be able to breathe.

So I'm at a loss to understand how that works.


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## Susquatch (Jun 23, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> In Alberta we are a bit drier. The only problem with rust occurred when I had unheated garage. Once it got heated no major issues. I still spray "rust inhibitor" on stuff or just put some light oil if they are not to be used in a while. But heavy or even medium rust does not happen anymore.
> 
> In ON I would consider dehumidifier in summer time. With very humid days it is inevitable that at night you get condensation - no one expects the garage (or wants) to be at daily 30C.



I'll have to see how big a dehumidifier I can get for my shop.

Not sure that will help with wooden boxes though.


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## Dabbler (Jun 23, 2021)

I lived my first third out in Burlington, which is also quite moist.  

FWIW

-- air movement helps, any dehydrator is better than none.  and a model maker friend of mine modified his rolling tool cabinets with a 40W bulb in each to raise the internal temperature above the dew point - and ran them 24/7-365.


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## Susquatch (Jun 23, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I lived my first third out in Burlington, which is also quite moist.
> 
> FWIW
> 
> -- air movement helps, any dehydrator is better than none.  and a model maker friend of mine modified his rolling tool cabinets with a 40W bulb in each to raise the internal temperature above the dew point - and ran them 24/7-365.



I agree with all those points. But I'm not putting a 40w bulb in all my drawers....... Nor in any custom wooden cabinet/box. 

Besides the cost, I'd also worry about the bulbs failing. So I might consider a small 5 or 10 watt heater. I don't think it takes 40W to provide great protection. 

I did have a small 15w bulb in my safe for that purpose and then I discovered a company that makes a rod heater that is called a golden rod. Something like that might work in my tool drawers if rods for that purpose are available and not too expensive. 

At some point, it probably makes more sense to just heat and/or dehumidify the whole shop.


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## Tom Kitta (Jun 23, 2021)

40w bulb 24/7 / 365 is around... 350kw/h per year. That is like... a fridge. I hope he did not have too many cabinets.


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## Dabbler (Jun 23, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> makes a rod heater that is called a golden rod



I've heard of golden rod, but never saw one.



Tom Kitta said:


> I hope he did not have too many cabinets



He had 2 tall boy metal cabinets for all his tooling...


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## Canadium (Jun 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I think you have just been lucky. I have a hard time understanding how covering stuff in plastic really helps unless your conditions are just right. In my mind, a plastic sheet just traps moist air in with the tools where it can more easily precipitate water as it cools down.
> 
> It is true that putting cold things into a plastic bag before bringing them inside to warm air stops condensation from forming on the cold metal but that's only because cold air doesn't hold much water and the cold air trapped in the bag gets drier as it warms up.
> 
> ...



It's really very simple. The obvious case is machined steel tabletops on band saws and table saws. I have actually watched this process happen in my shop. Because the tabletops are shiny flat machined steel it's quite easy to see when a layer of condensation forms on them. Wipe away the condensation with a tissue and seconds later the condensation reforms. So I put a sheet of plastic on the tabletops held down by magnets to block the steels exposure to the ambient air and voila no more rusting tabletops!!!


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I've heard of golden rod, but never saw one.



I did a quick search. Lee Valley sells them.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...T-VGOfJkN2yCPTxJdBRBaGBaw8J8BfsBoCVrEQAvD_BwE

I see they also sell an oil-less rust protector called T9 in both small dropper and spraycan.

I wish I could find that VCI I mentioned earlier in volume liquid to replenish anti-corrosion cards with. That could be kept in boxes and individual


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## Mcgyver (Jun 24, 2021)

as well as oil, what I do....

1) Summertime in the GTA, run dehumidifiers.  I have one in the basement shop and one in the garage (house is air conditioned so basement is fairly dry and cool).  In the garage it will take buckets of moisture out of the air per week.  One good sized dehumidifier, two car garage

2) the rest of the year, the worst damage is done by overnight temp changes -  moisture condensing out of the air.   Keep things close and covered stops a lot of rust - If you've got 5' of air over top of something, thats a more potential for condensate than if you have 1/2" in a drawer.  My experience has been the opposite of yours - keep drawers closed and things in boxes.

3) lastly to minimize condensate keep the shop at the same temp.  Unheated shops are imo the biggest contributor to rust.  Its big commitment to insulate and heat, but you don't get rust and and the shop is inviting year round.

The TO climate is humid, but doing these things has for all practical extents eliminated rust.


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Canadium said:


> It's really very simple. The obvious case is machined steel tabletops on band saws and table saws. I have actually watched this process happen in my shop. Because the tabletops are shiny flat machined steel it's quite easy to see when a layer of condensation forms on them. Wipe away the condensation with a tissue and seconds later the condensation reforms. So I put a sheet of plastic on the tabletops held down by magnets to block the steels exposure to the ambient air and voila no more rusting tabletops!!!



I don't question what you observed. But I really don't think it's simple at all. I'd like to understand how and why that works. The need to understand things is a cross I bear 24/7. 

The physical process is not intuitive to me. I suspect that it's a volume thing that could actually be worse than it looks. Perhaps your steel is rusting overnight whether or not you use the plastic despite the appearance of condensation. 

Re-reading your earlier post,



Canadium said:


> I have an attached poly house which warms it up dramatically on sunny days. So I thought that what was happening is that steel got cold overnight but was slower to warm up during the day than the ambient air. Therefore as the air warmed up again moisture from the air condensed on the cold steel and voila rust begins. I have always assumed that if the temp in my garage was at a more constant level then rusting tools would be much less of a problem.



I assume the "it" means garage is what is warmed up by the attached sun room. 

But here is my problem with that. I assume from what you say that everything gets uniformly cold overnight, and that no moisture condenses on the steel surfaces during that cool down (which is hard to believe on its own). Then, as the air warms rapidly, the steel doesn't warm and acts as a localized condenser due to the temperature difference. 

But my understanding of the process doesn't work that way. Yes, cold steel brought into a warm MOIST air environment will condense water onto its surface. However, air that was not humid enough to condense water at a low temperature will not condense water at higher temperatures than it was under the overnight condition no matter what the temperature difference is. In other words, it isn't the temperature difference that matters. It's whether or not the dew point is reached. Since the air wasn't condensing water at the stable overnight condition, it shouldn't be able to condense water as its temperature increases because the relative humidity is crashing. Even the air next to the steel cant get any colder than the overnight temp so it shouldn't condense either. 

Unless I am missing something, I suspect that the humidity in the air in your garage is increasing (which is not normal at all) for some other reason as the air warms up. Perhaps sunlight is causing convection in the air from a high humidity source? Perhaps opening doors allows an inrush of warm moist air from elsewhere?


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## Johnwa (Jun 24, 2021)

We’ve definitely got a different climate in Calgary.  We usually have humidifiers to add moisture to the air.  My wife has one on her piano to keep the sound board from drying out.  There’s also one of those golden rod thingies underneath but I doubt it ever comes on.
I will put some desiccant packs in the box though just in case.  @Susquatch thanks for the heads up.
John


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> as well as oil, what I do....
> 
> 1) Summertime in the GTA, run dehumidifiers.  I have one in the basement shop and one in the garage (house is air conditioned so basement is fairly dry and cool).  In the garage it will take buckets of moisture out of the air per week.  One good sized dehumidifier, two car garage
> 
> ...



I think your experience and advice is very helpful.

Personally, I find drawers and boxes to be the kiss of death. In fact, that's what prompted this thread. I saw the box that @Johnwa made and drooled with envy. I had just opened a box with HSS tool bits in it that looked like it had been bathed in saltwater. The box was right next to other tools that were in the open air and just fine.

My guess is that the 1" of air that gets trapped in your boxes with your tools was dry because the box was closed while your dehumidifier was operating.

I agree that heated shops are wonderful. So are air-conditioned shops. But my machine shop is 40x80 with 20ft ceiling. I have tractors and other farm equipment in there and I feel blessed to be able to have some room for other fabricating and repair equipment. It is insulated and heated with overhead gas radiant heating, but not air conditioned. I keep it just above freezing in the winter because I need running water in there. Winter is never a problem for me. There is enough winter air leaking in and out that when warmed up by the heaters, is dry as a bone. Summer is my bad time because the shop floor is like a big cooler that cools the humid summer air which then condenses. Of course, that's also when big huge doors get opened to move tractors and other equipment in and out.

We do have a big basement in the house too. It has also been a problem because we try not to use the air conditioner unless we have to. I generally restrict the airflow through the fan in order to slow it down through the air conditioner evaporator. That really drops the air temperature through the coils and improves the dehumidification. But since we don't use the a/c very much, we end up with high humidity. We solve that with two huge dehumidifiers. The result is a nice dry basement ever since we started doing that. In fact, I can't keep up with emptying the pails so I run a drain tube into the gravel under the cement floor and I let the sump pump look after it.

My take on what I have heard from others here so far is that I need to buy a half dozen big dehumidifiers for my shop. Perhaps I could set them up with staged settings that get rotated so they don't all run at the same time.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> If your dessicant packs are still working after a few years, it's obvious that your dehumidifier is working EXTREMELY well! Brand, make, model please!


I haven’t forgotten- I should be home tomorrow or Saturday


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## Dabbler (Jun 24, 2021)

@Susquatch - @RobinHood has a solution in his 40X80 shop:  He partitioned off a section, and put a roof over it (primarily to use a s mezzanine storage...  Thatsmaller volume can be heated/cooled/dehumidified at lower cost, and leave the tractors out in the big part that is moist...


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> We’ve definitely got a different climate in Calgary.  We usually have humidifiers to add moisture to the air.  My wife has one on her piano to keep the sound board from drying out.  There’s also one of those golden rod thingies underneath but I doubt it ever comes on.
> I will put some desiccant packs in the box though just in case.  @Susquatch thanks for the heads up.
> John



I was born in rural Saskatchewan over between Humbolt and Viscount. I hear you. Those people don't have a clue what the word humid means! But they sure as heck understand dry.....

Still very jealous of your box...... It's gorgeous.


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## Glen Phillips (Jun 24, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I did a quick search. Lee Valley sells them.
> 
> https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...T-VGOfJkN2yCPTxJdBRBaGBaw8J8BfsBoCVrEQAvD_BwE
> 
> ...




It appears that they are no longer available at Lee Valley.


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @Susquatch - @RobinHood has a solution in his 40X80 shop:  He partitioned off a section, and put a roof over it (primarily to use a s mezzanine storage...  Thatsmaller volume can be heated/cooled/dehumidified at lower cost, and leave the tractors out in the big part that is moist...



@RobinHood and I have very similar shops. I also have a small room at one end with a mezzanine above it. I have my electronics workshop up top and some storage. We call the room under it "the break room". We have a small fridge, sink, countertop, kitchen cabinets and a nice cozy sitting area in there. It is air-conditioned and heated separately from the main shop with a forced air system under the stairs to the mezzanine. The fellow we purchased the place from had an antique car shop in there with both an external car door and an inside one leading into the main shop. If I tried to move my fabrication shop in there my wife would divorce me. She thinks it's primary purpose is for baby showers, family get togethers, and even as a serving centre at my daughters wedding here at the farm. 

I could afford to install air conditioning and cool the shop for the rest of my life for way way less than the cost of the divorce. So that isn't happening. But I can't complain. The break room is OURS, but the shop is all mine.  I've also been known to leave the inside garage door open on occaision to cool and dry out the shop a bit when it gets really humid......

Anyway, this thread has served its purpose for me. I have learned that there are no silver bullets, miracle juices, or magic methods to stop rust. 

Now the search is on for a few high volume dehumidifiers as well as a mill motor..... LOL!


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## Susquatch (Jun 24, 2021)

Glen Phillips said:


> It appears that they are no longer available at Lee Valley.View attachment 15691



OH well. I'm sure they can be found at various sports stores. 

Amazon has them too. 

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00CYBDFWI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_VZ5CAMMFHA94YYNSC44X

But they are prolly just big resistors. And even if they are not, a high power resistor will do the same job. 

The 12" model is 12 watts so prolly 1200 ohms rated for 20 watts. 

The 18" model is 18 watts so prolly 800 ohms rated for 30 watts. 

The 24" model is 25 watts so prolly 575 ohms rated for 50 watts.

It's easy to buy or make big resistors that will work the same as the golden rod or a light bulb.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 25, 2021)

That’s what I have. Says 70 pints daily. I rented a 4” concrete drill bit and made a floor drain. It can be set to pump instead of filling the bucket. Canadian Tire purchase  couple years ago


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 15720View attachment 15721That’s what I have. Says 70 pints daily. I rented a 4” concrete drill bit and made a floor drain. It can be set to pump instead of filling the bucket. Canadian Tire purchase  couple years ago



Nice Dehumidifier!

You drilled in a 4" drain, but where does that go? Do you have a gravel or sand base under your concrete?

This is a problem for me. We put our condensate into the gravel under the concrete in our basement. But my shop has a clay base under the concrete so that won't work there. I think my only opportunity is to mount the dehumidifiers on a shelf and put a hole in the wall under them for a common drain. It's plenty dry in there in the winter so I don't need to worry about freezing.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 25, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Nice Dehumidifier!
> 
> You drilled in a 4" drain, but where does that go? Do you have a gravel or sand base under your concrete?
> 
> This is a problem for me. We put our condensate into the gravel under the concrete in our basement. But my shop has a clay base under the concrete so that won't work there. I think my only opportunity is to mount the dehumidifiers on a shelf and put a hole in the wall under them for a common drain. It's plenty dry in there in the winter so I don't need to worry about freezing.


Once I was through the concrete I hit gravel. I dug a small pit out of the gravel and it seems to work fine, it never overflows.
You could probably mount a funnel “urinal style” out a side wall and have them drain into that? I don’t think it would have to drain underground, where I wanted it the floor drain worked mint.


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Once I was through the concrete I hit gravel. I dug a small pit out of the gravel and it seems to work fine, it never overflows.
> You could probably mount a funnel “urinal style” out a side wall and have them drain into that? I don’t think it would have to drain underground, where I wanted it the floor drain worked mint.



Yes, if you have gravel under the floor, my experience says you are golden. We gave never had a problem in our basement at this house or the one where we lived before.

I'm not sure how many dehumidifiers I'll need. Probably at least two. I'll prolly get two and then add more if needed. They will work overtime whenever I open the overhead doors (Two 16x18 doors). Yes, a funnel or a common drain manifold of some kind to the outside through the insulated wall should work.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 28, 2021)

i found that today, makes the gun cabinet ones look tiny. Gonna add that to the toolbox


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## francist (Jun 28, 2021)

Sitting here in the middle of an unprecedented heat dome isn’t really the time to think of de-icing chemicals but Dave’s post on the desiccant made me think of it. It was a post on another forum some of us here belong to about DIY dehumidifying. I thought it was quite clever and although I have yet to actually try this I know that the process will work.

For one, I always have a bit of de-icer left over in my hand bucket after Victoria’s once-per-winter snowfall and by the summer there’s always a pool of water in the bucket which I could never understand before but now makes perfect sense. Also, from working with engineers on testing concrete slabs for dryness prior to applying a membrane they use a similar deal with a smalll quantity of the salts enclosed in a little plastic cover. After a couple days the salts have have drawn down the water from the contained air, we weigh the water, and from that determine state of dryness in the slab.

As noted, I think the process will be slow but maybe that’s okay for long periods of gradual or incremental drying. Certainly not going to be as rapid as a dehumidifier system but again, for enclosed spaces it may work ok. There is also the cost of the ice melter and how that measures out over time I can’t say, maybe it would be expensive. I typically sit on about 1500 pounds for my work stockpile but I only purchase once every couple of years so the price isn’t top of mind for me. I also do not know if there would be a detrimental effect to metals caused by exposure to the salts via the air. In other words, is putting the chemicals in the shop to decrease the humidity level going to cause a different rusting possibility because of the buckets of salt being present? Don’t know.

Anyhow, I thought I’d put the link here (hopefully) and you can take it for what you want.

-frank

Let me know if the link doesn’t work out and I’ll try to get it in another way.

Post in thread 'POTD- PROJECT OF THE DAY: What Did You Make In Your Shop Today?'

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/posts/768681/bookmark


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## YYCHM (Jun 28, 2021)

*You must be logged-in to do that.*


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## francist (Jun 28, 2021)

My apologies. How about this..


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## Susquatch (Jun 28, 2021)

francist said:


> Sitting here in the middle of an unprecedented heat dome isn’t really the time to think of de-icing chemicals but Dave’s post on the desiccant made me think of it. It was a post on another forum some of us here belong to about DIY dehumidifying. I thought it was quite clever and although I have yet to actually try this I know that the process will work.
> 
> For one, I always have a bit of de-icer left over in my hand bucket after Victoria’s once-per-winter snowfall and by the summer there’s always a pool of water in the bucket which I could never understand before but now makes perfect sense. Also, from working with engineers on testing concrete slabs for dryness prior to applying a membrane they use a similar deal with a smalll quantity of the salts enclosed in a little plastic cover. After a couple days the salts have have drawn down the water from the contained air, we weigh the water, and from that determine state of dryness in the slab.
> 
> ...



Yup, it works. But only for enclosed spaces. It's basically the same system they use in RVs and Travel Trailers to stop mold and mildew from setting in during winter storage. You can buy the packs and a special container to hold them and the precipitated water to use them in at any RV Service and Supply place. They come as a one-time use or as refillable. 

We used them for the first winter we had our trailer. They lied...... The container was big enough to hold the water it produced, it overflowed and could have ruined the flooring or the counter. Fortunately, I chose to put it in the sink. After looking at how much water it produced even with a totally depleted pack, I realized it wasn't nearly big enough to do much of anything. So, I put a small space heater in there instead. The trailer leaks enough air that the heater is able to take advantage of dry winter air and it has worked for the 15 some odd years we have used it. No mold, no mildew, no rust. 

As someone else said in an earlier post. Heat works.

My guess is that this system will work just fine in a small enclosed space. But like you I have no idea how the salts would affect corrosion rates.


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## Susquatch (Jun 28, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 15804
> i found that today, makes the gun cabinet ones look tiny. Gonna add that to the toolbox



I believe that type can be baked to reactivate the dessicant.  I once bought a really nice toaster oven specifically for drying out desicants and other similar tasks. That lasted till my bride spotted it and claimed it for herself. If I ever did that again, I'd make sure to uglify it somehow so she would never want it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 3, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Once I was through the concrete I hit gravel. I dug a small pit out of the gravel and it seems to work fine, it never overflows.
> You could probably mount a funnel “urinal style” out a side wall and have them drain into that? I don’t think it would have to drain underground, where I wanted it the floor drain worked mint.



I just had a Eureka moment. I don't need a hole in the wall. All I really need is a decent size bucket! Maybe a 5 gallon pail. I have lots of those. It could even be easily rigged with a float type shutoff to provide an audible notice and kill the power if it got close to overflowing or cascaded to another bucket.... Etc etc. Ya, the floor drain is a far superior solution, but I don't have that option. I'm just not really fond of the wall drain for a variety of reasons (spiders, bugs, freezing, etc).


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## Susquatch (Jul 3, 2021)

francist said:


> I also do not know if there would be a detrimental effect to metals caused by exposure to the salts via the air. In other words, is putting the chemicals in the shop to decrease the humidity level going to cause a different rusting possibility because of the buckets of salt being present? Don’t know.



I got a surprise this morning. I got into our travel trailer to check on the mouse traps and decided to check on other things too. I opened the overhead cupboard where I keep some dedicated trailer tools and equipment. Everything is in shoe-boxes or plastic tubs to keep them from rolling around. 

Unfortunately, I was shocked to discover that all my tools (mostly cheap emergency tools) were badly corroded with a bubbly wet looking dark crimson rust (totally destroyed would be a better word), anything brass or copper was badly discoloured with a rough bronze type finish (it almost looks anodized), and an aluminium T-Rail for the outside counter was covered in a thick white foam that looked like tree fungus. WTH! 

As I removed containers from the overhead cupboard, I found the apparent cause. I believe the culprit was a ruptured salt based dehumidifier pack. The dehumidifier itself and several unused salt packs had been stored in the plastic tub we use the unit in to catch any overflow. The tub is also a perfect storage container. The tub was half full of the salt water precipitate. I suspect the pack had frozen over the winter and ruptured. Or perhaps it had a pinhole leak in it that eventually ruptured. At any rate, the precipitate solution explained the nasty discoloration, the moldy aluminium, and the wet rust. 

So there is your answer learned the hard way. Vapours from that salt precipitate are DEADLY on metals. DO NOT TRY THIS METHOD WITH YOUR PRECIOUS TOOLS! 

Yup, experience is the toughest teacher of all because she gives the test BEFORE the lesson.


----------



## Chicken lights (Jul 3, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I just had a Eureka moment. I don't need a hole in the wall. All I really need is a decent size bucket! Maybe a 5 gallon pail. I have lots of those. It could even be easily rigged with a float type shutoff to provide an audible notice and kill the power if it got close to overflowing or cascaded to another bucket.... Etc etc. Ya, the floor drain is a far superior solution, but I don't have that option. I'm just not really fond of the wall drain for a variety of reasons (spiders, bugs, freezing, etc).


Mine you can set it to pump all the time or it fills the internal bucket, with some way of shutting it down once the bucket is full. You’d basically be replicating that system on a larger scale. Not a bad idea at all


----------



## Dusty (Jul 3, 2021)

@Chicken lights how has your extra shelving worked out? Just interested.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 3, 2021)

Dusty said:


> @Chicken lights how has your extra shelving worked out? Just interested.


I’m happy with it, gets more stuff off the floor. Next I need to mount my power inverter properly and get a bin for the vacuum. We making headway. Thanks for asking


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## francist (Jul 3, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Vapours from that salt precipitate are DEADLY on metals


Well, that's one way to find out although I was hoping for a non-destructive answer myself. Sorry you suffered some damage, hopefully nothing of tremendous value. Lesson learned all around.

-frank


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## Susquatch (Jul 3, 2021)

francist said:


> Well, that's one way to find out although I was hoping for a non-destructive answer myself. Sorry you suffered some damage, hopefully nothing of tremendous value. Lesson learned all around.
> 
> -frank


All just cheap tools intentionally selected for the odd use in a travel trailer. I pitched them already. 

I do have a few good tools (Milwaukee Compact Drill, hitch wrenches, socket set, etc) that I take along too, but they are on a list of things to borrow from my shop before we head out and then get returned to the shop when we get home so they are all ok. 

Other than the bronzing surface treatment, which is actually attractive, the brass and copper stuff (check valves, adapters, fittings, etc) appears to be functional. I'll have to test them to know for sure though.

So, ya it's a bit of a setback, but certainly not the end of the world!

My bride and I have decided to get a small dedicated electric dehumidifier and a small dedicated electric space heater for the trailer.

Life is good.


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## Susquatch (Jul 4, 2021)

Thought you folks might like to see what that salty air does to copper/brass.






This is what happened to steel.






Keep in mind that happened in an enclosed cupboard. Might not happen in open air.


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## whydontu (Jul 4, 2021)

I live 300ft away from the Fraser River tidal estuary in Vancouver. Humid is one thing, try humid and seawater. Last week was +40* C and high tides. I use lots of way oil, all my steel tools get the occasional wipe down with rust inhibitor, and table saw and milling table get paste wax. No flat shelves, all my shelves are the open wire shelves used for closets and pantries. No wooden tool boxes, and for cast iron stuff that gets stored on flat surfaces (vise, chucks, collet index,,etc,) I park them on the waxy rust inhibitor paper that they came wrapped in out of the original carton from China.


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## DPittman (Jul 4, 2021)

whydontu said:


> I live 300ft away from the Fraser River tidal estuary in Vancouver. Humid is one thing, try humid and seawater. Last week was +40* C and high tides. I use lots of way oil, all my steel tools get the occasional wipe down with rust inhibitor, and table saw and milling table get paste wax. No flat shelves, all my shelves are the open wire shelves used for closets and pantries. No wooden tool boxes, and for cast iron stuff that gets stored on flat surfaces (vise, chucks, collet index,,etc,) I park them on the waxy rust inhibitor paper that they came wrapped in out of the original carton from China.


Wow. I live in the deep south of Alberta and that sort of rust issue is NEVER a problem.  If it wasn't for the salt they use on the roads in winter I'd probably hardly know what rust was. LOL.


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## Susquatch (Jul 4, 2021)

whydontu said:


> I live 300ft away from the Fraser River tidal estuary in Vancouver. Humid is one thing, try humid and seawater. Last week was +40* C and high tides. I use lots of way oil, all my steel tools get the occasional wipe down with rust inhibitor, and table saw and milling table get paste wax. No flat shelves, all my shelves are the open wire shelves used for closets and pantries. No wooden tool boxes, and for cast iron stuff that gets stored on flat surfaces (vise, chucks, collet index,,etc,) I park them on the waxy rust inhibitor paper that they came wrapped in out of the original carton from China.



You live in Rust Hell. I imagine your environment is a lot like that disaster I had in the travel trailer with salt precipitate.

I don't know about the waxed paper from China. However, I do know that the VCI (Volatile Corrosion Inhibitor) stuff most companies use to reduce corrosion in shipment (oily paper, oily cardboard, etc) is only good for a certain time period. Longer if used in enclosed spaces and shorter in the open. The principle of the stuff is that the VCI corrosion inhibitor itself is volatile enough to fill the air around it and settle on metal surfaces. In other words, the VCI component evaporates. But it is supposed to resettle on metal. Some even claim that their stuff can penetrate micro cracks in the grain structure of the metal.

That's why I'd like to find a supply of the oil itself. Then I could re-soak the cardboard or paper to recharge it so to speak.

I did find some Remington GunOil that they claim contains some VCI. However, it's not very thick oil and therefore it doesn't last very long on tools. It's also expensive and as far as I know, it is only available in small quantities - 6 Oz spray pump. I don't know how much VCI it contains either.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jul 4, 2021)

Ya rust isn't a serious problem in my neck of SK. Tools in the shop are good to go with very little extra protection needed. You guys keep the humidity and salty air.


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## Susquatch (Jul 4, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Ya rust isn't a serious problem in my neck of SK. Tools in the shop are good to go with very little extra protection needed. You guys keep the humidity and salty air.



Ya, clean dry Prairie air. Even when it's 40 below it doesn't feel as cold as it does here at zero. 

I miss Saskatchewan....... I was born SW of Humboldt.


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## Dusty (Jul 4, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Ya rust isn't a serious problem in my neck of SK. Tools in the shop are good to go with very little extra protection needed. You guys keep the humidity and salty air.



Ditto that, extended life of any machines is by large dependent on environment plus the state or condition one leaves it.  Obviously both contribute greatly to shop safety. Now I ask you after a machine is left in a sad state of cleanliness what can you really expect from it?

My 2 cents worth.  I for one feel for the man who has to work with rusty tools and equipment because that can't be much fun. Only positive answer I can think of is stay on top of it although I realize it's easier said than done.


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## Proxule (Jul 5, 2021)

One word, technically 2
lanolin / turpentine

I spray my car once a year and have zero rust, Boaters use it on the hulls of boats.


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## Susquatch (Jul 5, 2021)

Proxule said:


> One word, technically 2
> lanolin / turpentine
> 
> I spray my car once a year and have zero rust, Boaters use it on the hulls of boats.



I know virtually nothing about lanolin and turpine.

What mix ratio? How do you apply it? 

Where do you get the lanolin?

Where and how do you apply this cocktail to your cars and boats?


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## Dusty (Jul 5, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I know virtually nothing about lanolin and turpine.
> 
> What mix ratio? How do you apply it?
> 
> ...



Lanolin is recovered from sheep wool. Turpentine is deadly, read on.

https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1962.pdf


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## Susquatch (Jul 6, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Mine you can set it to pump all the time or it fills the internal bucket, with some way of shutting it down once the bucket is full. You’d basically be replicating that system on a larger scale. Not a bad idea at all



Two days later and the 5 gallon buckets are only half full running full tilt the whole time. More importantly, humidity is down to 60%.  That will go to hell the first time I open one of the big shop doors, but I'm very very happy right now! Even feels cooler in there.....


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## Chicken lights (Jul 6, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Two days later and the 5 gallon buckets are only half full running full tilt the whole time. More importantly, humidity is down to 60%.  That will go to hell the first time I open one of the big shop doors, but I'm very very happy right now! Even feels cooler in there.....


That’s great to hear!


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> That’s great to hear!



For the benefit of anyone following this thread, I discovered a few things about dehumidifying my shop. Read on..... 

I was shopping for a small dehumidifier for my travel trailer and found an electronic unit with both great and poor reviews. I wondered why, so I read a few of them. The vast majority of poor reviews boiled down to the buyers sense that they didn't work because the produced very little water even in small enclosed spaces. That got me to wondering, could it be that a small space doesn't hold much water and they actually worked just fine?

So I dug out my psychometric charts and did some calculations. As everyone here already knows, warm air holds way more water than cold air. But how much water? Well, it turns out that the MAXIMUM water that a cubic meter of  30°C air can hold is only 30g (30ml). Not very much - and that is for 100% relative humidity. So that answers the critics.

So then I wondered how much water there could be in my shop?

My shop is 80Long x40 wide x16high with an enclosed space at one end. That's about 1500m3. So the maximum water that can be in the air in my shop is 43.5kg or 43.5L. And that's at 30°C 100%. It's much less than that at lower temps and lower humidity! Or looking at that another way, If I keep the doors closed and minimize the air leaks, I would fill less than one 5-gal pail to bring my humidity down to 50% from 100% at 25°C.  

So much for worrying about cascading pails....... My plans have changed. 

Of interest, three days later, both pails are still only half full and hardly dripping at all anymore. The units are set to run continuously. A separate humidity device says its only 37% in there. 

So, my new plan is 2 large dehumidifiers set to 50% dumping into one 5 Gal pail each. Both pails will have overflow float switches in them to turn the dehumidifiers off if they get too full. I think I'll also put each of the pails into a large Tupperware tub just in case I accidentally forget about them.


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## RobinHood (Jul 7, 2021)

Great analysis.

Another thing to consider is air of different properties (temp, moisture content) do not want to mix readily. One needs a mechanical means of moving the air around the building to force the mixing and thus extract more moisture so that the whole airmass inside ends up with uniform properties.

In nature, one can observe this phenomenon by watching advection fog form over a cold surface: warm, moist air slowly flows over a cold, frozen lake for example. The fog forms initially just an inch or so above the ice as the temperature of the air in contact reaches the dew point in just that layer. If you move your hand to disturb the air, you can literally produce a bigger fog cloud. People riding snow machines can trigger this as well.


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## PeterT (Jul 7, 2021)

Proxule said:


> One word, technically 2
> lanolin / turpentine - I spray my car once a year and have zero rust, Boaters use it on the hulls of boats.



I've always associated turpentine as pretty strong paint thinner. How are you applying that to your car?
https://www.doityourself.com/stry/4-best-uses-for-turpentine


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Great analysis.
> 
> Another thing to consider is air of different properties (temp, moisture content) do not want to mix readily. One needs a mechanical means of moving the air around the building to force the mixing and thus extract more moisture so that the whole airmass inside ends up with uniform properties.
> 
> In nature, one can observe this phenomenon by watching advection fog form over a cold surface: warm, moist air slowly flows over a cold, frozen lake for example. The fog forms initially just an inch or so above the ice as the temperature of the air in contact reaches the dew point in just that layer. If you move your hand to disturb the air, you can literally produce a bigger fog cloud. People riding snow machines can trigger this as well.



Yup, I am a farmer now. I spray nasty chemicals regularly. I totally get what you are saying and it is spot on advice. Wind mixing, temperature inversions and other localized conditions can have a dramatic effect on spray applications. 

I absolutely agree with your point. That's why I have a large fan in the shop that runs 24/7 - even in the winter. I simply assumed everyone knows that so I took it for granted and didn't mention it. But it really isn't something that everyone knows, so I'm glad that you mentioned it!


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Great analysis.
> 
> Another thing to consider is air of different properties (temp, moisture content) do not want to mix readily. One needs a mechanical means of moving the air around the building to force the mixing and thus extract more moisture so that the whole airmass inside ends up with uniform properties.
> 
> In nature, one can observe this phenomenon by watching advection fog form over a cold surface: warm, moist air slowly flows over a cold, frozen lake for example. The fog forms initially just an inch or so above the ice as the temperature of the air in contact reaches the dew point in just that layer. If you move your hand to disturb the air, you can literally produce a bigger fog cloud. People riding snow machines can trigger this as well.



Hey, another related story for you that underlines what you said. 

A long time ago, I was up north in the dead of winter doing some low temperature testing. It was -50°C the whole week that we were there. I have lots of great stories from that trip but one that stands out to emphasize your point was how much the temperature dropped in the valleys. Keep in mind that our vehicles were equipped with state-of-the-art instrumentation. When we drove down into the valleys, the temperature consistently dropped another 20 degrees. You could literally watch the temperature dive with just a few feet of elevation change. It was like an underwater thermocline. Amazing!


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## Chicken lights (Jul 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Hey, another related story for you that underlines what you said.
> 
> A long time ago, I was up north in the dead of winter doing some low temperature testing. It was -50°C the whole week that we were there. I have lots of great stories from that trip but one that stands out to emphasize your point was how much the temperature dropped in the valleys. Keep in mind that our vehicles were equipped with state-of-the-art instrumentation. When we drove down into the valleys, the temperature consistently dropped another 20 degrees. You could literally watch the temperature dive with just a few feet of elevation change. It was like an underwater thermocline. Amazing!


Same holds true if you climb a tree, it’s dramatically colder 50 feet off the ground.


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## combustable herbage (Jul 7, 2021)

Seems there is a lot of factors in this % humidity temperature, air flow  rust is always happening , my question is what % of humidity do you think you start to see a real increase in the rust forming is 30% or  50% too much?  obviously less would be better and less would mean it would take longer to produce the same amount of rust.


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## Proxule (Jul 7, 2021)

Turp is no more dangers then an other petroleum distillate!
It is how ever naturally sourced ( distilled from the tree resins ). I mix mine so its thin enough to allow it to be sprayed from a  spritz bottle. A nice fine mist on the entire undercoating and it gums up / hardens up, Just enough so it doesn't really attract any rocks or dirt, But still soft enough to be mushed by finger.
On machinery and tooling you can thin it out even more, I spray it into my door panels and nearly every thing and any thing else.
Has yet to fail me.


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## Proxule (Jul 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I know virtually nothing about lanolin and turpine.
> 
> What mix ratio? How do you apply it?
> 
> ...



I get mine from https://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/products/lanolin-anhydrous-usp
I buy 2 lbs for all the vehicles per year, Its more or less the same as LPS 3 minus the cost.


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> Seems there is a lot of factors in this % humidity temperature, air flow  rust is always happening , my question is what % of humidity do you think you start to see a real increase in the rust forming is 30% or  50% too much?  obviously less would be better and less would mean it would take longer to produce the same amount of rust.



Thankfully, I don't think that's true. The % relative humidity may have a miniscule effect but only in closed environments where you can have localized dew points reached because of localized temperature differences. Even in these conditions, the overall humidity is not nearly as important as the temperature (because the rate of corrosion goes up with temperature), whether or not you have localized condensation, whether the dew point has been reached, corrosive elements (eg salt) in the air, and especially when you have disimilar metals in contact with each other. Water and dissimilar metals create a battery effect that is much stronger than wet metal. It helps to remember that all corrosion is the result of a charge differential. No differential - no corrosion. But even the grain structure of a metal can create a battery effect because each grain is slightly different than its neighbour. 

All other things being equal, the name of the game is to keep the humidity/temperature below the dew point as opposed to targeting a particular % relative humidity. Mind you, the easiest ways to do that are to keep the overall humidity low and/or to heat the localized air (which raises the temp above the dew point for a given mass of air).

Another way to look at it is to assume a room is full of 100% relative humidity. If you put a light bulb in a cabinet that is inside that air, it will warm the enclosed air in the cabinet above the dew point and prevent corrosion.

Yet another way to look at it is to understand that water in pure vapour form (a gas) does not cause corrosion. On the other hand water in liquid form can cause corrosion by creating a localized battery effect.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> Seems there is a lot of factors in this % humidity temperature, air flow  rust is always happening , my question is what % of humidity do you think you start to see a real increase in the rust forming is 30% or  50% too much?  obviously less would be better and less would mean it would take longer to produce the same amount of rust.



At the risk of complicating matters even more, I realized I might have misled you a little.

It actually is possible to determine the % relative humidity needed to prevent corrosion. To do this, you need to know the current temperature and the current relative humidity. You can then use Psychometric charts to determine the temperature at which the dew point will be reached. Some relatively inexpensive humidity meters do the calculation for you.

Conversely, if you know the minimum temperature you expect to reach during a given time period, you can use the charts to determine the % relative humidity that is required at the current temperature to reach the dew point at the minimum temperature. If you lower the % relative humidity at the current temperature below that relative humidity from the chart, then the dew point will not be reached at that minimum temperature. 

But the charts and graphs are complicated to use so it's generally easier to just play it safe by heating the space in the winter - which automatically reduces the relative humidity, and by dehumidifying in the summer. 50 to 60% is a good target under most conditions. 

I hope that's a better answer for you.


----------



## francist (Jul 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> 50 to 60% is a good target under most conditions.


 
Indeed that is a good goal.

To further split the hair, in the collections management world (caring for museum artifacts) the gold standard for maintaining a mixed collection is 50 percent RH plus or minus 2%, and 20 degrees C plus or minus 2 degrees. If you can manage to attain that over a full year seasonal cycle you’ve hit the top tier rating for storage of artifacts. Few places actually can, and even fewer small to medium-sized museums. Even with all the gizmos and automation there is still a large level of human intervention to tweak the dials this way or that to try to keep ahead of it.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

T





francist said:


> Indeed that is a good goal.
> 
> To further split the hair, in the collections management world (caring for museum artifacts) the gold standard for maintaining a mixed collection is 50 percent RH plus or minus 2%, and 20 degrees C plus or minus 2 degrees. If you can manage to attain that over a full year seasonal cycle you’ve hit the top tier rating for storage of artifacts. Few places actually can, and even fewer small to medium-sized museums. Even with all the gizmos and automation there is still a large level of human intervention to tweak the dials this way or that to try to keep ahead of it.



That is great info. I didn't know that.

I am speculating a bit here, but I suspect that the museum goals are not really corrosion related. I'd guess that it's probably more about keeping things from drying out or becoming too moist and cracking or swelling in some way or expanding and contracting due to temperature. It may also be related to chemical stability for paints and other substances that can volatolize in low humidity or high temperatures. I suppose chemical stability is a nightmare for those poor folks.

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!


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## YYCHM (Jul 7, 2021)

Corrosion happens.... even in Alberta.....

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/hmmm-dont-know-what-to-make-of-this.3365/


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## combustable herbage (Jul 7, 2021)

That's a hell of an answer I wish I had read the second one before the first one I think I have to learn more about the dew point and humidity  I never really payed much attention to it maybe its why I have a difficult time sprouting seeds.  I think the dehumidifier setup you have is the way to go, for my garage the door is open 18 hours a day so what's outside is inside and coming from the west I definitely have learned to spray everything down especially the snow blower.


----------



## francist (Jul 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> probably more about keeping things from drying out or becoming too moist and cracking or swelling in some way or expanding and contracting



Correct, although corrosion and or other material degradation can and does occur albeit slower, so the objective is always to slow the mechanisms down as much as possible. Most damaging though, as you surmise, is repeated fluctuation between the highs and lows. I’ll often tell a contractor it’s not about going back and forth trying to hit that magic number but picking a number within the zone that you can stay at and sit there. Way better for the artifacts in the long run.


----------



## Chicken lights (Jul 7, 2021)

francist said:


> Indeed that is a good goal.
> 
> To further split the hair, in the collections management world (caring for museum artifacts) the gold standard for maintaining a mixed collection is 50 percent RH plus or minus 2%, and 20 degrees C plus or minus 2 degrees. If you can manage to attain that over a full year seasonal cycle you’ve hit the top tier rating for storage of artifacts. Few places actually can, and even fewer small to medium-sized museums. Even with all the gizmos and automation there is still a large level of human intervention to tweak the dials this way or that to try to keep ahead of it.


To further muddy the waters the one place I was at in Texas wanted their building UV controlled to protect the exhibits. So temperature, humidity, UV and I’m assuming sunlight controlled building yet still have doors that open and close for tourists 

Tall order indeed


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> ...... my garage the door is open 18 hours a day so what's outside is inside and coming from the west I definitely have learned to spray everything down especially the snow blower.



I don't live there so I don't know what your conditions are really like. But I gotta tell you that I think an open door is a recipe for problems. 

For example. Let's just say it's a really hot humid day outside. The door is open so that hot wet air from outside ends up inside where it's shady and therefore cooler. The temperature drops, the dew point is reached, and moisture forms on everything. Rust is inevitable. 

You are way better off closing that door and dehumidifying the inside of your garage. 

FWIW, the opposite happens in winter. That cold air outside can't hold much water to begin with. But when it comes in from outside, it gets warmed up and the humidity dives. Stuff starts drying out and cracking. Corrosion is not a problem as long as it's warmer inside than outside.

It never hurts to oil the crap out of stuff the way you do though. Just wish I could find the perfect oil!


----------



## francist (Jul 7, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Tall order indeed



Yup, and the most damaging of all of those is…wait for it… humans.


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## Susquatch (Jul 7, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> To further muddy the waters the one place I was at in Texas wanted their building UV controlled to protect the exhibits. So temperature, humidity, UV and I’m assuming sunlight controlled building yet still have doors that open and close for tourists
> 
> Tall order indeed



Should we call you superman?

How did it turn out?


----------



## Chicken lights (Jul 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Should we call you superman?
> 
> How did it turn out?


It was very well designed, not by me. Small man door controlled by a park ranger admitting entrance. Windows strategically placed. There was a walkway over the whole exhibit to keep human interaction away from the open excavation.

You can tell by the quietness of such buildings how tight they are, it’s truly amazing. If I had to guess it was roughly 100’x300’ inside, very impressive


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Corrosion happens.... even in Alberta.....
> 
> https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/hmmm-dont-know-what-to-make-of-this.3365/



Wish I found that thread before I started this one. It's always easier to build on what others have done that to start fresh.

But ya, that's galvanic corrosion of dissimilar metals for sure. All it took was a little moisture in an enclosed container from a fishing trip, or a sub-zero winter night below the dew point of the trapped air, or even one of those hydrous rubber wormy things, to get those galvanic batteries going and the result was inevitable. Even in Alberta!


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## historicalarms (Jul 8, 2021)

francist said:


> Yup, and the most damaging of all of those is…wait for it… humans.



   you should see the ancient history museums in Greece, dozens of them with thousands of unreplaceable artifacts thousand of years old with huge sunlight domes overtop most every room...and every room will have a sign posted everywhere..."no flash Photo's allowed, punishable by federal law # 535"


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> you should see the ancient history museums in Greece, dozens of them with thousands of unreplaceable artifacts thousand of years old with huge sunlight domes overtop most every room...and every room will have a sign posted everywhere..."no flash Photo's allowed, punishable by federal law # 535"



Saw the same thing visiting a Kincaid Art Gallery in the USA. Big huge windows and individual spot lights on all the paintings. But no flash allowed. Only thing worse than a fool is a whole crowd of em. Skylights in Greece prolly don't even have UV screening.


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## Susquatch (Jul 8, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> you should see the ancient history museums in Greece, dozens of them with thousands of unreplaceable artifacts thousand of years old with huge sunlight domes overtop most every room...and every room will have a sign posted everywhere..."no flash Photo's allowed, punishable by federal law # 535"



I'm surprised they don't have a law that forbids the sun from shining. That's what the Canadian govt would do.


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## Susquatch (Jul 11, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Mine you can set it to pump all the time or it fills the internal bucket, with some way of shutting it down once the bucket is full. You’d basically be replicating that system on a larger scale. Not a bad idea at all



7 days later and the dehumidifiers seem to have stabilized at 55%. The 5 gallon buckets were both about 3/4 full. That jives nicely with the calculation.

I still plan to add float based safety shutoffs, but it looks like two big 5 gallon pails and a willingness to dump once a week should do the trick. I'll also dump everytime I open a barn door.

The small permanent electronic unit for my travel trailer should be here next week.


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## Tom O (Jul 11, 2021)

You could hook up a pump to the overflow switch that could run for a minute or so to empty the bucket rather than having to remember to empty it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 11, 2021)

Tom O said:


> You could hook up a pump to the overflow switch that could run for a minute or so to empty the bucket rather than having to remember to empty it.



So therein lies the problem I've tried to resolve.

My barn has no floor drains. Under the cement is hard packed clay. Originally, I was going to put a drain through the wall. In that scenario, I don't need a pail at all. Just hook the Dehumidifier to the wall drain and go.

However, I really didn't like putting a drain through the wall. So the solution I came up with was a 5gal pail (or a series of cascading pails) to replace the much smaller built-in reservoir.

I am pleased to have learned that one pail for each of my two dehumidifiers is adequate for my needs and only needs to be dumped once in a week or so.

Maybe in time I will grow tired of dumping pails and put in a wall drain. For now, I am thrilled to have a nice dry barn to work in.


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## Dabbler (Jul 11, 2021)

you could make a greedy bucket...  that is a self starting siphon which will empty the bucket down a hose when it gets near full (google greedy wine glass) - as long as you have a slope to drain to...


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## Susquatch (Jul 12, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> you could make a greedy bucket...  that is a self starting siphon which will empty the bucket down a hose when it gets near full (google greedy wine glass) - as long as you have a slope to drain to...



I LOVE learning new cool things!

I've never heard of that before! Yet, I use syphons all the time. 

Thank you @Dabbler!!! VERY COOL!!!


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## architect (Aug 4, 2021)

Any simple ideas on preventing surface rust on welding tables? Rather not spray it and breath in the off gas in my tiny garage.


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## Brent H (Aug 4, 2021)

Frequent use!


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## Susquatch (Aug 4, 2021)

architect said:


> Any simple ideas on preventing surface rust on welding tables? Rather not spray it and breath in the off gas in my tiny garage.



Keep the relative humidity down below 60% or so.

I'm with @Brent H on this one. Usage is a great way to keep the rust down. A flap disk works great too - especially after a vaca. 

I'm over 70.  There are some excellent products around that have not killed me or affected my sex life (yet anyway). I personally like Fluid Film (Princess Auto) in the pail (not spray can). It can be wiped on with rags very thinly. But it will stink if you get it hot. 

If you are really concerned about vapours, try rubbing it down with a high quality cooking oil. It will smell if you get it hot too, but at least you will be smelling something you normally eat anyway. Just remember that it's a welding table (sparks etc) so you don't want any more oil on it than required to stop the oxidation. I wouldn't spray it on, I'd rub it on.

For that matter, why worry about it? A little fresh rust makes for easy markups.


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## architect (Aug 4, 2021)

Maybe I'll give Fluid Film and crack the garage door open. I installed a fan anyone to keep it cool/warm and move the air around. 

Yeah, I guess I could just let the surface rust go. It's a cheapo PA table bought on sale anyway but wanted to keep it "clean". I'm also noticing some light surface rust on my drill table etc so I'll give fluid film a go there. I'll probably for the the can and not the pail as I can't imagine needing that much of it as I don't run a farm after all


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## Susquatch (Aug 5, 2021)

architect said:


> Maybe I'll give Fluid Film and crack the garage door open. I installed a fan anyone to keep it cool/warm and move the air around.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I could just let the surface rust go. It's a cheapo PA table bought on sale anyway but wanted to keep it "clean". I'm also noticing some light surface rust on my drill table etc so I'll give fluid film a go there. I'll probably for the the can and not the pail as I can't imagine needing that much of it as I don't run a farm after all



The reason for the pail is to be able to use a brush or a rag to get much lower quantities on the target surface.  But you can always spray some on a rag and then rub it on. Or spray it on the table and spread it out.

If you crack the garage door, you will need to run the dehumidifier more. Otherwise, your welding table would be the least of my worries. Toronto isn't as humid as Chatham/Leamington but it's still BAD. Humidity is the root of your problem.


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## John Conroy (Aug 5, 2021)

When I use Fluid Film I spray a small area then spread it over a larger area with a hand covered in a nitrile glove or clean shop rag. After the rag soaks up some of the fluid it will act as an applicator. It takes very little fluid to form a rust barrier.


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## PeterT (Aug 5, 2021)

Do you guys notice anything about Fluid Film if oil is ever applied afterwards? Not that one would consciously do both, but I mean does regular oil bead off because of the lanolin or other ingredients in FF? Just wondering if its a one or the other type application? I can see FF for several of my outdoor equipment needs & other applications but maybe not a good recipe for machine bedways, vise slides etc. that get their lathering of way oil or hydraulic oil? I might be getting this cross threaded with some buddies who were using specialized sprays on their chains & then if they ever went back to oil based, it wouldn't stick as well. But maybe that was teflon additive in the spray or something completely different chemistry.


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## Susquatch (Aug 5, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Do you guys notice anything about Fluid Film if oil is ever applied afterwards? Not that one would consciously do both, but I mean does regular oil bead off because of the lanolin or other ingredients in FF? Just wondering if its a one or the other type application? I can see FF for several of my outdoor equipment needs & other applications but maybe not a good recipe for machine bedways, vise slides etc. that get their lathering of way oil or hydraulic oil? I might be getting this cross threaded with some buddies who were using specialized sprays on their chains & then if they ever went back to oil based, it wouldn't stick as well. But maybe that was teflon additive in the spray or something completely different chemistry.



I don't think I can help. I ONLY use Fluid Film as a rust preventative. It is an awesome preventative for stuff that has to be left outdoors all winter long (or all year long). I don't use it as a lubricant and I don't think of it as one either. So I wouldn't mix applications with oil or grease.

Yes, it is does contain lanolin (which comes from processing sheep wool) or so I learned from another member. But there is other natural ingredients in there too - all apparently non-toxic.

I first heard about it from the ships engineer on one of Canada's navy frigates. They use it on exposed steel surfaces on board the ship.

If you don't use it as a lubricant, I don't think you need to worry about oil compatability. For example I wouldn't put it on chains or ways or screws or....... In fact, I wouldn't use it on tools or tool surfaces. Grease and oil work fairly well for corrosion protection for things like that all on their own.

That said, I do hunger for a bulk source of VCI to use in drawers, tool cabinets, and tool storage boxes. But that subject takes us full circle back to the whole thrust of this thread...... LOL!


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## architect (Aug 5, 2021)

Mill has been rusting over the last few months. I haven't used it so not sure what's going on. There was even a rust ring where I had a parts holder magnet bowl. The shop where I bought this from had it near their front door so not sure how it wasn't rusting with them but two months in my garage is looking like this. Should I to to remove the rust then fluid film? I have a small exhaust vent in my garage so it's probably as humid as outside is.


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## DPittman (Aug 5, 2021)

So I live in a very dry climate where things basically never rust indoors however my brother has rust/corrosion form on many of his shop tooling that he claims is because of his use of mig gas (not sure what mixture he uses but I think an argon mix) .  I haven't researched this phenomenon myself but was surprised that in a large farm shop the concentration of any mig gas could be a problem.


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## Tom O (Aug 5, 2021)

I’ve never heard about that.


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## Susquatch (Aug 5, 2021)

architect said:


> Mill has been rusting over the last few months. I haven't used it so not sure what's going on. There was even a rust ring where I had a parts holder magnet bowl. The shop where I bought this from had it near their front door so not sure how it wasn't rusting with them but two months in my garage is looking like this. Should I to to remove the rust then fluid film? I have a small exhaust vent in my garage so it's probably as humid as outside is.



Read the earlier part of this thread. Rust is inevitable if the dew point is reached without other  protection in place. For those of us living in high humidity regions, the best option is to stop outside air from entering, install a good Dehumidifier, set it for 50%, and drain it continuously. For the winter, run a small space heater or a few lightbulbs. In the winter, all that is usually required is to keep the temperature inside about 10°C warmer than outside. This ensures that the inside humidity never reaches the dew point.

The reason that rust forms so easily in a garage is because the garage is usually a little cooler than outside. Yet garages share the same air as outside. So when the high humidity outside air is cooled in the garage, it condenses moisture on surfaces and rust is inevitable.


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## architect (Aug 6, 2021)

Yup read the threads. What makes a good humidifier? Just any that will do 50+pints per day? Saw Chicken lights's NOMA. Sucks that the mill started rusting before even getting to play with it


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## Susquatch (Aug 6, 2021)

Hey, could be worse. Both mine were quite rusted - as received!

The appropriate size is related to your square footage, external humidity, air infiltration rate, and internal humidity sources. 

Most dehumidifiers come with a square footage or volumetric rating as well as a removal rate. They assume (correctly) that buyers have no idea what they really need. It's easy to think that more and bigger is always better. But that assumption just isn't true because load and infiltration matter and I don't like the heat that a big unit produces. There are charts and graphs (psychometric) that will tell you how much water your garage air can hold. I believe the unit (or units) need to be able to remove half that much water in two days. If I were you, I'd assume your shop is big enough to need a fairly big one (say 30 pints per day). There is a "For Living" 30 pint 400 ft2 unit at Crappy Tire right now that is highly rated. I have one in my man cave. It works great for that space which has high air infiltration. If you find that isn't enough capacity, you can always get another one and stage your units like mine. 

Bigger units produce more heat and nobody likes that. I have two 50 pint 4,000 ft2 units in my shop. My shop is 3200 ft sq with 20' ceilings which is prolly equivalent to a 6,000ft2 home (more volume but less load). One is an older less efficient unit and one is a recent newer addition. I set the older one for 65% and the newer one for 50%. That way, the new one does most of the work, but when things get bad (eg opening my two 18x16 doors), the older unit kicks in too. Together, they easily keep my shop at 50 to 55%. Once they get the initial humidity down, they don't seem to do much work. 

A nearby drain would be way more convenient and less maintenance, but I really like my 5 Gal pails for keeping track of what is happening. 

I know you are probably looking for something more definitive, but it really isn't that simple. 

Last but not least, crappy Tire has a good return policy. If you find yourself wishing you had bought more or less capacity, they will look after you.


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## architect (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks for the tips on the smaller unit which makes sense for my small one-car garage. 

In case anyone's interested, I dug around and picked up this Midea Cube 35-pint unit from Lowes. I like the design of this as it's basically draining into a square bucket in a compact design, something important in my tiny tiny garage. The size of the bucket means I don't have to dump the water regularly, and I don't want to drill down my concrete floor to make a drain. But if you have a drain then you can basically sit the unit right ontop of the drain too. Most of these are residential units so I just hope it holds up to all the shop dust etc.






Also got some advice offline from Brent about Scotch-brite and Evapo Rust to clean up the surface rust on mill table and mill, and then protect it with some way oil and Minwax.


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## francist (Aug 6, 2021)

That’s a brilliant design with the built-in bucket underneath.


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## DPittman (Aug 6, 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/dehumidifer-recall-1.6132092


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2021)

francist said:


> That’s a brilliant design with the built-in bucket underneath.



The two tiny units I got for my travel trailer are both like that too. 






But I hunger for a small hose (tube) drain to the sinks.

I plan to add that but have not been able to find a small bulkhead connector yet. I want something in 1/4" size range. I may have to make one.


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2021)

architect said:


> Also got some advice offline from Brent about Scotch-brite and Evapo Rust to clean up the surface rust on mill table and mill, and then protect it with some way oil and Minwax.



Please share! 

I have not tackled mine yet. But it's on my to-do list. The normal use of evaporust is dipping. Can't do that with a mill table!


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## Brent H (Aug 7, 2021)

@Susquatch :

basically for mild surface rust I clean it off with a green scotch bright pad dipped in evaporust.  Comes off great.  Next wipe down with a damp rag to end the evaporust and follow that up with some WD40 to remove any water. Wipe that off and then apply some way oil (not like dripping but at least a film).   For other cast Iron tables I remove the surface rust and then clean the surface with a rag and some WD40.   Apply a coat of flooring paste wax.  Let it dry about 15 min, buff off.
Of course for machines that will get oil on the surface the wax will wear off quickly, but it works great as preservative for lesser used metal surfaces and keeps the rust off.


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2021)

Sounds great Brent. You might be the only other guy on the planet who uses wd-40 for its intended purpose. Getting rid of water.  The WD means Water Displacing. 

Quick clarification question. Sounds like you are not putting wax on the mill table, just on other cast iron surfaces. That makes sense because oil dissolves wax. 

But what other cast iron surfaces are there that require the wax?


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## Tom O (Aug 7, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> The two tiny units I got for my travel trailer are both like that too.
> 
> View attachment 16491
> 
> ...



modify the base like this…


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## Brent H (Aug 7, 2021)

@Susquatch : I have a full cabinet shop so table saw, planer table, jointer, bandsaw, shaper etc.  
For the mill, once cleaned and oiled there is a set of boards that cover the ways, one on each side of the vice.  The bottom of the boards are a bit oiled and serve to keep the table the same.  I posted the build in another thread somewhere on here.


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : I have a full cabinet shop so table saw, planer table, jointer, bandsaw, shaper etc.



I see......  Seems to me that woodworking tools have lots of long sharp edges that rust too easily...... I feel your pain.


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2021)

Is this the post you mentioned?

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/projects-to-catch-up-on.2027/


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## architect (Aug 9, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> The two tiny units I got for my travel trailer are both like that too.
> 
> View attachment 16491
> 
> ...



I actually returned mine and got a another 35-pint one instead. I realize in my tiny garage I want to hide the compressor in dead space like behind the mill and then just run a hose to a bucket in the front that I can easily dump periodically. This is easier than trying to reach behind my mill to lift the 40lbs unit up to drag the bottom water bucket out. I still think Midea is a great design and would be great for lager space and no drain. But I'm trying to maximize every inch so have to trade quieter, larger condenser with with one that's a smaller footprint but produces more hot air.


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## Susquatch (Aug 9, 2021)

architect said:


> I actually returned mine and got a another 35-pint one instead. I realize in my tiny garage I want to hide the compressor in dead space like behind the mill and then just run a hose to a bucket in the front that I can easily dump periodically. This is easier than trying to reach behind my mill to lift the 40lbs unit up to drag the bottom water bucket out. I still think Midea is a great design and would be great for lager space and no drain. But I'm trying to maximize every inch so have to trade quieter, larger condenser with with one that's a smaller footprint but produces more hot air.



Sounds good to me. I really like my bucket system. I have a downspout right outside the barn door that drains to my pond. I took the square eaves drop to 4" Big O adapter cap off so I can dump my water into that.

My guess is that your bucket will take a week to fill. The water is basically like distilled so you can dump it anywhere.

As someone earlier posted, don't forget to circulate your air a bit - especially with your Dehumidifier tucked into a corner. I'm not really sure that is required in your space. But you will find out soon enough. 

Also don't forget to turn that exhaust fan of yours off as much as possible. There isn't much point in dehumidifying the outdoors. I'd prolly only use it when welding, or painting, or running an engine, and I prolly wouldn't use it all for small jobs of short duration.


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## architect (Aug 11, 2021)

It's been so humid here. I got almost a full bucket since Monday night!  This is a temporary setup so my elderly father can easily access and dump the water while I'm away all of next week backcountry portaging.


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## Susquatch (Aug 11, 2021)

Today is Wed. So that's a pretty darn good machine! It's also a lot of water for a small space. Are you sure you are not moving air in and out of there? Surely it should have slowed down by now. 

What does it say the humidity is now? 

Mine did that at first too, but they are not producing nearly that much water anymore. The outside humidity here is UGLY, and my space is HUGE! 

Being an "elderly" father myself and grandfather, and could be a great grandfather (if my oldest grandson ever figures out how his tools work), I'd be moving that bucket so he doesn't accidentally step in it and have a nasty fall like I did this past spring! My ankle is still badly swollen many months later. Old guys like me seem to lose our peripheral vision far too damn soon.


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## architect (Aug 11, 2021)

There's been heat/humidity alert here over the last couple days so it's been rough. I have 10' ceiling in here that may also be it. I have a ceiling fan moving the air 24/7 as well. I watered the flowers so I'll see what the bucket looks like in the coming next few days. My garage door may have some gaps. Maybe the exhaust fan lets in humidity even when it's off?

I have the unit set to 45% but it holds it as low as 42% so I don't know what the deal is. When I had it set to 50% it would turn off and get to 55% again before turning back on (3min condenser timer) so I decided on 45%. It's a cheap unit so not the best at controlling probably but the price was right and 2-year warranty.

I haven't had time/energy to do the rust cleaning and protection that you and Brent recommended so good thing I didn't hesitate to grab dehumidifier, especially since I'm away all next week!

The bucket is just by the door on the step so he can just open the door and grab it from inside the house without setting foot into the garage


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## Susquatch (Aug 11, 2021)

architect said:


> There's been heat/humidity alert here over the last couple days so it's been rough. I have 10' ceiling in here that may also be it. I have a ceiling fan moving the air 24/7 as well. I watered the flowers so I'll see what the bucket looks like in the coming next few days. My garage door may have some gaps. Maybe the exhaust fan lets in humidity even when it's off?
> 
> I have the unit set to 45% but it holds it as low as 42% so I don't know what the deal is. When I had it set to 50% it would turn off and get to 55% again before turning back on (3min condenser timer) so I decided on 45%. It's a cheap unit so not the best at controlling probably but the price was right and 2-year warranty.
> 
> ...




I'm going to do some research for both of us and others who are following this.

You have a 10ft ceiling, but what size is your garage again? 

In the meantime, I doubt that door leaks or an open exhaust fan that is not running would be that bad.  If the plants you are watering are in the garage, that would add humidity. Plants use sunlight to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, the oxygen is released, and the hydrogen is combined with carbon dioxide to make hydrocarbons. But not all the water is used. Actually only a small bit of it. So most of the water you give your plants ends up in the air. 

It might be a cheap Dehumidifier, but it's working GREAT! Don't be afraid to set it to 50 or even 55. That will save you a bundle and there is nothing really worrisome about 60% humidity. My only real concern is the accuracy of the humidity reading. My two units seem to differ by about 5%.  I also have a humidity gauge that suggests the unit with the higher number is correct.


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## architect (Aug 11, 2021)

No plants in garage I just meant I emptied the bucket into my outdoor plants 

I think the last few days have just been -really- humid and recall seeing 80%+ on the weather reports. I've now set the unit to 50-55% and with weather easing up today the bucket has barely filled.

I also caulked the garage door trims a bit just in case


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

I feel your pain. Essex/Kent is usually over 90% because it is the south-most part of Canada at the same Latitude as the north border of California and surrounded by huge lakes and I live right on the North shore of Lake Erie. But it can get worse - @whydontu has salt in his air!

I promised a little more research. I dug out my psychometric charts again and made the following chart that shows the data in a little more useful format. This is the MAXIMUM water that air can hold at the temperatures listed - ie at 100% humidity.






I figured per 1000 ft3 and per 100m3 were pretty reasonable multiples for most shops and garages.

For example, if I assume your garage is 20x20 with 10ft ceilings, that is 4000 ft3. Per the chart, 30°C air can hold 1L of water per 1000ft3. Therefore, the 4000 ft3 of air in your garage can hold 4x that or a maximum of 4L of water.

% Relative Humidity is a term that was developed to describe how much water there is in the air compared to how much water CAN be in the air. For example, if the air in your garage can hold 4L of water, then at 75% humidity, the air is holding 3L of water and at 50% relative humidity it is holding a total of 2L of water.

One look at the maximum water content at temperatures below zero VS temperatures above 20 (winter VS summer) and it becomes easy to see why homes need to add water in the winter and dehumidify in summer. When that low water winter air gets into your house and then gets warmed up, the relative humidity DIVES!!!! 

The reason that rust forms in humid air is also evident in the chart. For example, let's say the temperature is 30°C and the relative humidity is 90% inside your 4000ft3 area. Then let's say the temperature overnight drops to 20°C.  From the chart 1000 ft3 of 30 degree air CAN hold 1L of water. At 90% relative humidity it is actually holding 90% of 1 L which is 0.9L. However, at 20 degrees, that same air can only hold 0.6L of water. For 4000ft3, it's 4 times that or 3.6L and 2.4L.  As a result, 1.2L of water MUST condense out of the air by forming dew on everything in the garage. Rust is inevitable. When people talk about the dew point, they are referring to the temperature at which the relative humidity reaches 100% based on the amount of water in the air before it started cooling. 

It's important to recognize that you cannot go by how much water your bucket accumulates in the first week of its use. Wet concrete, absorbant materials, dampness, and other water sources in your garage can add up to a LOT more water than there is in the air. As the air dries out, all that absorbed water starts to dry out too. That's probably why your pail filled so fast at first. 

The good news is that the air will dry out those areas once it is dry enough itself to be able to do that.   It appears to be doing that already, but you can expect the overall process to take a week or so.

After that, you should actually be able to use the amount of ongoing water removal as a proxy for how much your garage is leaking air. In the process of doing that, don't underestimate how much air gets changed every time you open a door or run that exhaust fan. That said, your Dehumidifier should work much faster and better once the garage itself is dried out. A little internal air circulation will help too.

Although the data is definitely not linear, it is still reasonable to use standard linear interpolation to determine the maximum water contained at other temperatures not listed in the chart. 

I hope all that is useful to @combustable herbage and you and others. I'm annoyed with my progress on my Hartford Mill right now, so I really needed a good distraction and this was perfect!


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## architect (Aug 13, 2021)

Well that's all too smart for me to understand but I'm sure tons of people will find your research useful!

My unit has still been taken out quite a bit of water. But the humidity has his 95%! I'll see what it looks like in a week when I'm back in town but at that point the humidity will have dropped anyway, hopefully.

I'm avoiding any rust cleaner chemical work until the weather changes and I can open up my garage for air circulation.


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## PeterT (Aug 13, 2021)

That's a good writeup. I always thought Calgary was a cracker comparatively. Everyone has dry skin issues, pay bucks to install humidifiers, people generally don't seem to have the same degree of rust battles, inside at least. But looking at the seasonal charts, maybe not as dry as I thought.


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## Dabbler (Aug 13, 2021)

When I first moved here in '79, it was very dry - skin issues, breathing issues, etc.  now it's very damp, compared.


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## Susquatch (Aug 13, 2021)

PeterT said:


> That's a good writeup. I always thought Calgary was a cracker comparatively. Everyone has dry skin issues, pay bucks to install humidifiers, people generally don't seem to have the same degree of rust battles, inside at least. But looking at the seasonal charts, maybe not as dry as I thought.



Your charts are very interesting to me. I guess I don't think 85% is all that bad. Especially if I assume those monthly numbers are the highs. Still, they are certainly higher than I expected. And looking at the daily numbers was equally interesting. The high humidity was typically overnight as the air cooled and low during mid afternoon - exactly what you would expect if the actual amount of water didn't change but temperature did.  

How often do you get dew on the grass in the morning?

Just thinking, my life would be so wonderful if Ontario could swap climates with Sask/Alta........


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## YYCHM (Aug 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Just thinking, my life would be so wonderful if Ontario could swap climates with Sask/Alta........



Seriously????  You want our winters


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## DPittman (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm glad I don't have those rust/humidity problems.  Here is my shop thermometer and humidity right now...top reading is inside and the bottom reading is the outside.


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Seriously????  You want our winters



Yup! I was born in Saskatchewan SW of Humboldt. I was at the home farm in early February a few years ago. It was amazing! It brought back sooooo many memories...... We talked about stone boats in another thread. How about the Caboose we went to school in during the winter? 

Yes, I absolutely love REAL Winters.

But you are right, most easterners would have me drawn and quartered if I ever made that dream come true!


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 14, 2021)

Oh joy, winter. Going out to fix water bowls in -35, beating twine off ice covered bales. I can hardly wait. Can i go to Arizona this winter?


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Oh joy, winter. Going out to fix water bowls in -35, beating twine off ice covered bales. I can hardly wait. Can i go to Arizona this winter?



Ya, that part wasn't fun.

But fair is fair. I'll take that over +35°, mosquitos & biting flies in swarms in broad daylight, salty sweat in my eyes and mouth, shirts and underwear soaked in sweat, even the air in the shade of a big walnut tree burns your eyeballs. Yup, I'm dreaming of those gorgeous western winters right now...  You can always put on more clothes when it's too cold, but you can't take more off when it's too hot.


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

DPittman said:


> I'm glad I don't have those rust/humidity problems.  Here is my shop thermometer and humidity right now...top reading is inside and the bottom reading is the outside.



Your gauge readings are a great opportunity to talk about relative humidity a bit more. Some have said it's too complicated. But everything is complicated until you grasp the principles. Your gauge says it's:
24.7°C and 32% inside and
29.2°C and 20% outside

From the chart I provided earlier, 

100m3 of air at 30°C can hold a maximum of 3L of water. The humidity in your gauge is 20%.  20% of 3L is 0.6L.   So the outside air has 0.6L of water in it per 100 cubic meter. That part is pretty straight forward. But let's look at your inside air and do a little interpolation. Your gauge says the outside air is 25°C and 32% relative humidity. Looking at the chart again, and interpolating between 20 and 30, (25 is half way between them) the maximum water at 25 should be roughly half way between the two humidity numbers too. That is approximately a maximum  
2.4L of water. Your gauge says 32%.  And 32% of 2.4 is approximately. 0.76 L of water! Given that the relationship isn't really linear, that I rounded the numbers off, and given the poor accuracy of most humidity gauges, thats pretty darn close to the same amount of water as outside!

In other words, the amount of water in the air didn't change (nor should we expect it to). However because it's colder inside, the air can't hold as much water as it could when it's hotter so the relative humidity goes up from 20% to 32%.

Now, just imagine what it would be like if you had 95% humidity OUTSIDE at even higher temperatures ......... And "Welcome to my world"!


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## whydontu (Aug 14, 2021)

I love math, and seeing a graph or spreadsheet of numbers always makes me want to extrapolate info from the data. I looked at the Calgary humidity chart and went “hmm”. I’ve only spent a little time in Calgary, but Vancouver doesn’t have sagebrush or rattle snakes, so Calgary <should> be dryer than Vancouver. So I looked for a similar chart using Vancouver data.

https://vancouver.weatherstats.ca/charts/relative_humidity-hourly.html

Turns out we rarely drop below 50%, which explains why my air conditioners crashes in the middle of the night, when the sump fills with condensate and trips the high-level alarm.

Could be worse, we could live in Toronto.

https://toronto.weatherstats.ca/charts/relative_humidity-hourly.html


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

whydontu said:


> I love math, and seeing a graph or spreadsheet of numbers always makes me want to extrapolate info from the data. I looked at the Calgary humidity chart and went “hmm”. I’ve only spent a little time in Calgary, but Vancouver doesn’t have sagebrush or rattle snakes, so Calgary <should> be dryer than Vancouver. So I looked for a similar chart using Vancouver data.
> 
> https://vancouver.weatherstats.ca/charts/relative_humidity-hourly.html
> 
> ...



Fantastic data! I used to look at this year's ago, but lost my links to it. THANK YOU for finding them! 

For some reason they don't have the numbers for Windsor or Essex or Leamington (or I wasn't able to find them). These cities should have the worst humidity in Canada. Maybe they don't want us to know that.......

Never Mind, found it. It was just well hidden. See next post.


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

Yup, it is worse. Here is Toronto.






And here is Windsor.






God awful climate.


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## Susquatch (Aug 14, 2021)

Here is Leamington






And here is Chatham






All 4 are part of Canada's sweaty armpit.

Ya, give me winter in Alberta/Saskatchewan......


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Update - I bought some WD-40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor.





It contains a VCI !!! (Volatile Corrosion Inhibitor). That makes it an outstanding long term corrosion protection coating.

The can says it protects for 1 year.

I think my search for bulk VCI is over. If this works like I think it does, I should be able to lightly spray my tools once a year and be done with them. A VCI is what is impregnated in those cards and wrapping paper that is used in tool shipping. It works by volatolizing a corrosion Inhibitor that is subsequently attracted to microscopic pores and cracks in the grain structure of metals which stops corrosion in its tracks. It will even work for tools in boxes and drawers. I can give each drawer a light spray and walk away.

After checking the details, and trying out a can of it on something prone to rusting (eg my plow blades) , I'll prolly order a case of it.


----------



## trlvn (Apr 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Update - I bought some WD-40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor.


Where did you get it?

Craig


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Where did you get it?
> 
> Craig


Canadian Tire. But you can get it on Amazon too. Apparently they sell other "specialist" products. So make sure the can says "VCI".


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## trlvn (Apr 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Canadian Tire. But you can get it on Amazon too. Apparently they sell other "specialist" products. So make sure the can says "VCI".


Weird...I asked because I searched the Canadian Tire web site and couldn't find it.  As you say, there were quite a few "WD-40" products.  I'll go back and make sure I wasn't just searching one store.

Craig


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## thestelster (Apr 11, 2022)

I'll have to try some of that.  I've been searching for the perfect lube/penetrant for literally decades, and my go-to for almost everything is Sea-Foam Deep Creep.  If I need long term storage or auto nuts/bolts rust protection I use Fluid Film.


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

thestelster said:


> I'll have to try some of that.  I've been searching for the perfect lube/penetrant for literally decades, and my go-to for almost everything is Sea-Foam Deep Creep.  If I need long term storage or auto nuts/bolts rust protection I use Fluid Film.



My goto penetrant is deep creep too. And my goto storage film is Fluid Film. 

So I am REALLY ANXIOUS to try the WD-40 VCI product! 

While looking at the VCI stuff, I did notice that WD-40 is selling a specialist penetrating fluid now too. I have no idea how well it compares to deep creep. But everything can improve and I am always open to changes.


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Weird...I asked because I searched the Canadian Tire web site and couldn't find it.  As you say, there were quite a few "WD-40" products.  I'll go back and make sure I wasn't just searching one store.
> 
> Craig



Apparently I led you on a wild goose chase Craig. Sorry about that. I couldn't find it at CTire either. So I figured maybe they discontinued it or it was a special. They do sell a WD-40 Rust Release product and I do have a can of that too that I thought I got at Amazon. I'll come back to this in a minute. 

So I did a broader search and found it at lots of places including Walmart, and Amazon. I'm not fond of Walmart (I always feel like somebody is taking my picture) so I checked out amazon. They kindly pointed out that I had recently purchased some...... Duh..... 

WD-40 300038 Specialist Long Term Corrosion Inhibitor Spray 6.5 OZ (Pack of 1) https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00631GWS4/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_RW7XTZFEDMP12RNQYKHD

So now I'm thinking I bought the WD-40 Rust Release product at Canadian Tire and the Rust Inhibitor at Amazon and just confused the two. 

Sorry about that.


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## Dusty (Apr 11, 2022)

@Susquatch said, so now I'm thinking I bought the WD-40 Rust Release product at Canadian Tire and the Rust Inhibitor at Amazon and just confused the two.

You know what they say about being confused, now I've forgot what they say! Help! LOL


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Dusty said:


> @Susquatch said, so now I'm thinking I bought the WD-40 Rust Release product at Canadian Tire and the Rust Inhibitor at Amazon and just confused the two.
> 
> You know what they say about being confused, now I've forgot what they say! Help! LOL



My wife like to say that the more certain I am about something, the more likely it is that I am just confused again......


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## combustable herbage (Apr 11, 2022)

The only thing I am certain of is that I am confused most of the time, well some of the time I guess, but now that I think about it maybe not. 

At $47 a can you want to make sure you put that away for special occasions, label looks to similar to regular wd40.


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> The only thing I am certain of is that I am confused most of the time, well some of the time I guess, but now that I think about it maybe not.
> 
> At $47 a can you want to make sure you put that away for special occasions, label looks to similar to regular wd40.



It gets worse, it's also a very small can. 

On the other hand, if it saves a drawer full of tools it pays for itself many times over. 

I'll guess it can be had for less and that it will also come down as time passes. But who knows. I'd appreciate knowing about better deals. 

I'm still on the hunt for volume VCI.


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## Chicken lights (Apr 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'm still on the hunt for volume VCI.






Done and done


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 22989
> Done and done



Woah! At that price, I'd have to share......


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2022)

you might look into zerust - it is available in 5 gal containers.


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> you might look into zerust - it is available in 5 gal containers.



I actually bought a bunch of their stuff back about 12 years ago. I put some of their paper tabs into my Reamer containers, my travel tool box, and my fishing tackle boxes. I was disappointed. But maybe that's because it was easily depleted in the environments I used it in. Seemed to work ok in enclosed Reamer tubes, and was mixed performance in my travel tool box, but didn't do squat for my fishing tackle.

I doubt that is a fair assessment though because the experiment was very poorly controlled. I guess I just expected better since their advertizing claimed it was perfect for tackle boxes.

Yes, I should try to get a container of it.


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## thestelster (Apr 11, 2022)

I believe this is what you're looking for:

https://www.traverscanada.com/product/wd-40-300035-movement-lubrication-81-006-209


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

thestelster said:


> I believe this is what you're looking for:
> 
> https://www.traverscanada.com/product/wd-40-300035-movement-lubrication-81-006-209



Half the price too!


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I actually bought a bunch of their stuff back about 12 years ago.



zerust is sending me some samples to try.   My working hypothesis is that now VIC oils are now commonplace, that the techniology has matured in that segment.  Anyway,  Free samples are worth trying every time.  Oh and it is 61$CDN a gallon but then there's shipping...


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> zerust is sending me some samples to try.   My working hypothesis is that now VIC oils are now commonplace, that the techniology has matured in that segment.  Anyway,  Free samples are worth trying every time.  Oh and it is 61$CDN a gallon but then there's shipping...



Free samples are always great!

I mostly agree with your hypothesis. I only say mostly because they seem to be prevalent at the big manufacturer level. Almost everything I get now has VCI paper or similar in it instead of dessicant. However, it seems to be as scarce as hens teeth at the retail consumer level. You would think it would be far more common than it is.

$61 a gallon is a GREAT price. But ya, the shipping...... For some reason I recall a Canadian supplier even back 15 years ago. Maybe we can find them.

The other issue is that VCI alone is no miracle. You still need a little oil mixed with it to provide longer term protection, or at least something to carry the VCI till it is depleted.

So back to your hypothesis, why isn't all this info more readily available?


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2022)

BTW  the source of the 61$ is just outside of your backyard, in Brantford, at Aircraft Spruce.


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## Susquatch (Apr 11, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> BTW  the source of the 61$ is just outside of your backyard, in Brantford, at Aircraft Spruce.


Really! I had thought it was USA. I know I dealt directly with them when I first got some. At that price and availability, why not! 

Since they are in Brantford, I'll just drop by and get some next time I am up that way. I have an account at Aircraft Spruce. I keep wondering when they will close up shop.


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## Degen (Apr 11, 2022)

Couple of tricks.

Breakfree CLP (spray).

Drop Cloth, not the plastic crap but real cloth.   Basically is does not allow moisture to condense on the metal.  Cheap old school solution.  Anything with a plastic covering is bad as it it prevents moisture from escaping.


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## Susquatch (Apr 12, 2022)

Degen said:


> Couple of tricks.
> 
> Breakfree CLP (spray).
> 
> Drop Cloth, not the plastic crap but real cloth.   Basically is does not allow moisture to condense on the metal.  Cheap old school solution.  Anything with a plastic covering is bad as it it prevents moisture from escaping.



In general, I agree. But not universally.

First question I always ask is "where are you located"? This makes a HUGE difference. The folks in the prairies live in humidity corrosion Shangrala. Those of us in Southern Ontario live in humidity corrosion hell. What works in the Prairies may not work in Ontario or the Maritimes or BC. The most important thing to understand is relative humidity.

Sometimes, a sealed plastic enclosure is actually better than an open or cloth container. If the sealed plastic bag is filled with dry cold air, it is virtually impossible to reach the dew point and condense moisture inside. In such a case, the plastic is actually better.

Often times, the problem isn't the cover per se. Tools and equipment are often stored in cabinets or drawers that can also prevent air exchanges. This can result in trapped moisture condensing on them when the temperature drops.

An easy way to control relative humidity and corrosion is to maintain a temperature higher than ambient. A small light bulb in a cabinet or enclosure or under a tarp is often all that is required.


----------



## Degen (Apr 12, 2022)

Ontario, worst time for condensation is warming up a cold shop in the winter, cold soaked metal in a warmer shop attracts water like a water magnet.

Again, the trick is tor reduce water attraction.

Take a look at www.brownells.com rust-blox vapor tabs for enclosed spaces.


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 12, 2022)

Degen said:


> Ontario, worst time for condensation is warming up a cold shop in the winter, cold soaked metal in a warmer shop attracts water like a water magnet.
> 
> Again, the trick is tor reduce water attraction.
> 
> Take a look at www.brownells.com rust-blox vapor tabs for enclosed spaces.



Hmmmmm... I find exactly the opposite. Warming a cold shop NEVER causes condensation. That said, for the cold months, I keep my shop a few degrees above freezing and also above ambient so the average relative humidity is always well below 50%. In the warm months I dehumidify. 

But you are the second member to mention this, so there must be something to it. 

What is your heating method? 

What was the relative humidity before you turned up the heat? 

What was the temperature before you turned up the heat? 

Are you exhausting combustion air into your shop? 

Are you using make-up air or a closed system? 

I believe what you say and I ask the above questions very seriously. I'd really like to understand the physical processes whereby this happens in your shop.


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## calgaryguy (Apr 12, 2022)

Canadium said:


> It's really very simple. The obvious case is machined steel tabletops on band saws and table saws. I have actually watched this process happen in my shop. Because the tabletops are shiny flat machined steel it's quite easy to see when a layer of condensation forms on them. Wipe away the condensation with a tissue and seconds later the condensation reforms. So I put a sheet of plastic on the tabletops held down by magnets to block the steels exposure to the ambient air and voila no more rusting tabletops!!!


On my woodworking equipment's machined surfaces I apply johnsons or minwax paste wax and buff. Protects the machined surfaces and provides a slightly slippery surface for wood to be more easily worked thru the machines. And since its wax intended for wood it leaves very little residue. I've never had a fisheye problem when spraying finishes...


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## Degen (Apr 12, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmmm... I find exactly the opposite. Warming a cold shop NEVER causes condensation. That said, for the cold months, I keep my shop a few degrees above freezing and also above ambient so the average relative humidity is always well below 50%. In the warm months I dehumidify.
> 
> But you are the second member to mention this, so there must be something to it.
> 
> ...


Take a ice cold glass (choose your poison) outside on a warm day and the glass sweats.

This occurs at the DEW point (google it) saves me writing the theory and methodology.

Simply, as you heat a shop regardless of the method in cold weather as soon air temperature is warmer than the metal condensation occurs.

Unfortunately, most shops are cold  until they are need (cost pf heating thing) so it is a fact of life.  The cloth method just absorbs the moisture as it migrates to the machine greatly reducing the chance of condensation.


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## Susquatch (Apr 12, 2022)

Degen said:


> Take a ice cold glass (choose your poison) outside on a warm day and the glass sweats.
> 
> This occurs at the DEW point (google it) saves me writing the theory and methodology.
> 
> ...



Please know that I TOTALLY understand the physics, I can read a psychometric chart just fine. You don't need to dumb it down for me. I'm trying to understand what is different about the situation you describe. 

To use your glass of cold water example or cold machinery. I've seen this too. Who hasn't? However, for this to happen, the local air temperature of the item (water or steel) must be below the dew point for the humidity of the local air. Normally, relative humidity goes down with an increase in temperature. Without an associated increase in localized water content or an increase in humidity, condensation will not occur because it always prefers to stay in the warming air. If however a cold object causes the local air temp to drop lower than its dewpoint, condensation will occur. In this case, there was no condensation in the initial condition so it must have been at or below 100% humidity so the temp of the surfaces cannot condense any moisture out of the warming air. 

There are a few possible explanations though and that's what drove my questions. 

If outside air is introduced, it could have a higher relative humidity than the shop had. This is especially true when the outside air is warmer and wetter than the shop air. 

If the shop was actually colder than outside, high humidity outside air could condense. 

If the heater produces moisture (eg a catalytic heater) this could increase humidity levels and cause condensation. 

Etc etc.


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## Degen (Apr 12, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Please know that I TOTALLY understand the physics, I can read a psychometric chart just fine. You don't need to dumb it down for me. I'm trying to understand what is different about the situation you describe.
> 
> To use your glass of cold water example or cold machinery. I've seen this too. Who hasn't? However, for this to happen, the local air temperature of the item (water or steel) must be below the dew point for the humidity of the local air. Normally, relative humidity goes down with an increase in temperature. Without an associated increase in localized water content or an increase in humidity, condensation will not occur because it always prefers to stay in the warming air. If however a cold object causes the local air temp to drop lower than its dewpoint, condensation will occur. In this case, there was no condensation in the initial condition so it must have been at or below 100% humidity so the temp of the surfaces cannot condense any moisture out of the warming air.
> 
> ...


The problem is most buildings like it or not have moisture in them.  Yes there are increases in moisture through various sources which complicate things, you breathing is one of them. 

This issue is metal gets cold soaked and continues to absorb cold until it reaches stabilization.   The moment the shop breaks freezing the metal becomes the moisture attractor until it stabilizes again with the surrounding conditions.


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## Susquatch (Apr 12, 2022)

Degen said:


> The moment the shop breaks freezing the metal becomes the moisture attractor until it stabilizes again with the surrounding conditions.



Ah, I see! There is the answer I was looking for. You let your shop go below freezing. This changes the dynamics considerably because it presents the opportunity for a change of state. 

If the air in your shop is that cold, it hardly holds any water at all. Almost anything (yes even your breath) will increase the relative humidity in a heart beat and any moisture in there will collect wherever it can. It can't dry up because it is frozen. Most likely the relative humidity in your shop stays at the dew point for the first little while because of this excess frozen water that condensed out while the garage was cooling down the night before. 

I have water pipes in my shop. So I never let it go below freezing lest I burst a pipe. 

II will say that it's amazing to me that you don't have a crap load of rust in your shop just from the overnight freezing. It's a testament to the anti-corrosion chemicals you use.


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## DPittman (Apr 12, 2022)

I'm lucky, rust is almost never a problem in my shop, except when I spill my coffee or beer and do t get it cleaned up properly.


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## Degen (Apr 12, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Ah, I see! There is the answer I was looking for. You let your shop go below freezing. This changes the dynamics considerably because it presents the opportunity for a change of state.
> 
> If the air in your shop is that cold, it hardly holds any water at all. Almost anything (yes even your breath) will increase the relative humidity in a heart beat and any moisture in there will collect wherever it can. It can't dry up because it is frozen. Most likely the relative humidity in your shop stays at the dew point for the first little while because of this excess frozen water that condensed out while the garage was cooling down the night before.
> 
> ...


My old shop did as it had no running water.  The Garage (attached to the house) generally doesn't drop below freezing but it can on occasion (I have heat trace on the water lines) still runs into the same issues.  The condensation only occurs during the heat cycle.  Remember the metal stays warm during while the shop cools.  During weather warming and cooling cycles (even if extreme they are usually slow.


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## buckbrush (Apr 16, 2022)

I have not read this whole thread so this may have been mentioned, Car wax. I use it on machined surfaces and measuring tools.


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## Susquatch (Apr 17, 2022)

Degen said:


> My old shop did as it had no running water.  The Garage (attached to the house) generally doesn't drop below freezing but it can on occasion (I have heat trace on the water lines) still runs into the same issues.  The condensation only occurs during the heat cycle.  Remember the metal stays warm during while the shop cools.  During weather warming and cooling cycles (even if extreme they are usually slow.



You park a car in there or bring in a snow blower?


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## Degen (Apr 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You park a car in there or bring in a snow blower?


Neither, all building pull in moisture  under the right conditions, most of it comes from humans.


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## StevSmar (Apr 17, 2022)

Canadians are spoilt… Our living area is mostly 21C year round (my wife no longer wants to save energy in the summer, so the AC is set for 22C, maybe I’ll sneak it up to 23C but that won’t last long…). In the summer we dehumify, in the winter humidify…
When I was a boy, if it was 10C outside it was 10C inside… The coldest I’ve ever been was in Australia… a cold winter chilled you to the bones. It was too expensive to space heat… (or so I was told…)
Anyway, enough rambling on about “when I was a boy”… back to the original topic.

I purchased a five gallon container of orange desiccant, and once it had absorbed water it could be dried out in the oven and reused. It was used to keep humidity out of a crated engine. I suspect it would work for covered machinery also?

I‘ve used T9 Boeshield and it works very well. My lathe spent a winter sharing our garage with our vehicle and it didn’t get any rust (Unheated, attached, insulated garage). I did liberally coat any bare metal surfaces with oil quite regularily.

For my woodworking tools I’ve had very good success with ProtecTool Wax from lee valley. The only issue I’ve had is putting too much on and then it gets gummy.


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## Susquatch (Apr 17, 2022)

Degen said:


> Neither, all building pull in moisture  under the right conditions, most of it comes from humans.



Of course they do. But the thing I'm struggling with is trying to understand how your garage manages to increase humidity to 100% in an endothermal environment. The only way I know of to do that is to melt snow or ice or to add a mister of some kind. Humans produce a lot of water both breathing and sweating, but not anywhere near at a rate fast enough to increase humidity sufficient to overcome the rate of heat being added with a furnace.

I accept your observation as factual. I believe that you actually do see water droplets forming on cold steel when you turn the furnace on. Since I know that cannot happen in a closed system, I am trying to figure out how such a large volume of extra moisture is getting in there.

You have ruled out melting snow and ice, you have ruled out standing water, and you have ruled out moisture from exhaust gases from your heater. But *A LOT* of additional moisture has to be getting in there somehow.

The science of humidity and water condensation has been exhaustively studied and the physics mechanisms are very well known.

Briefly stated, cold objects sweat because they chill the air adjacent to them below the dew point for that air. If we know that there was no sweating before heat was added to the system, then we also know that the relative humidity of the air at the surface of the object was below 100%. Therefore any additional heat added to the air will eliminate any potential for sweating because adding heat reduces relative humidity fast. I say fast because the amount of water that air can hold increases exponentially with temperature. The psychometric curve is an exponential curve, it is not linear

Thinking about what you said though, there is one more possibility. If you are actually standing there breathing on your metal surface while you watch it, it will probably sweat. That because you are breathing out very warm very wet air. The air you breathe out is not a high volume at all compared to the air volume in your garage. But if your breath is accidentally or intentionally directed toward a nearby cold surface, it will necessarily cause condensation on the metal surface because the air in your breath will be cooled by the metal below its dew point.

Is that perhaps what you meant all along?


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 17, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Canadians are spoilt… Our living area is mostly 21C year round (my wife no longer wants to save energy in the summer, so the AC is set for 22C, maybe I’ll sneak it up to 23C but that won’t last long…). In the summer we dehumify, in the winter humidify…
> When I was a boy, if it was 10C outside it was 10C inside… The coldest I’ve ever been was in Australia… a cold winter chilled you to the bones. It was too expensive to space heat… (or so I was told…)
> Anyway, enough rambling on about “when I was a boy”… back to the original topic.
> 
> ...



Obviously, you are not a Canadian Farmer..... I dunno about others here, but I don't live in 21C all year long at all. I live in freezing cold winters and hot humid summers. Even at night when I am indoors, the house is kept cold in the winter and hot in the summer. Not as cold as outside of course, but still much colder than 21C.

In fact, my tools have it better than I do! So I guess I have spoiled Canadian tools! LOL! 

Ive used volume dessicant too. But frankly it is too difficult to use in tool boxes, tool cabinets, and boxes. And it doesn't work well for a large shop either. It works reasonably well in small sealed boxes. But it seems that VCI is largely displacing dessicants as the preferred way of protecting things from corrosion today. 

And yes, lots of coatings work well. They are just difficult to use and maintain. It would be good if there was a better way.


----------



## Degen (Apr 17, 2022)

The issue with humidity and condensation on tools is simple, as you heat your work area (particularly if you let it get near freezing or below) for a longer period the metal cold soaks.  What happens as you heat the shop the relative humidity changes (temperature dependent) except at the surface of the machine as it near freezing.  What happens next can best be described as your heavy metal machine becomes the  shop dehumidifier by pulling any and all moisture out of the air and condensing it (unfortunately) on its surface.  Over all this is not the extra moisture from unknown sources, but by letting the machines cold soak and then heating the shop when we need it we create a clone of the dehumidifier.

To be fair different heating methods can cause issues, but overall if cold soak can be avoided, condensation can mostly be avoided, again unfortunately some shops can not do this so other preventative measures need to be taken


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 18, 2022)

Degen said:


> The issue with humidity and condensation on tools is simple, as you heat your work area (particularly if you let it get near freezing or below) for a longer period the metal cold soaks.  What happens as you heat the shop the relative humidity changes (temperature dependent) except at the surface of the machine as it near freezing.  What happens next can best be described as your heavy metal machine becomes the  shop dehumidifier by pulling any and all moisture out of the air and condensing it (unfortunately) on its surface.  Over all this is not the extra moisture from unknown sources, but by letting the machines cold soak and then heating the shop when we need it we create a clone of the dehumidifier.
> 
> To be fair different heating methods can cause issues, but overall if cold soak can be avoided, condensation can mostly be avoided, again unfortunately some shops can not do this so other preventative measures need to be taken



That is mostly a wives tale. The science says it doesn't happen that way. To do that, the air next to the machine would have to increase its moisture by attracting moisture from elsewhere.

Looking at it a different way, the air right next to the machine doesn't know the heater has come on. It wasn't below the dew point beforehand, and there is nothing to make it colder because it's already as cold as the machine. So it can only reduce its humidity as it warms. Even if it never warms, that little piece of air can never get to a higher water content than it had when it started. Unless more water is added.....

Similarly, other units of air elsewhere in the room are warming, but their water content is not changing either (unless water is added) so their humidity level is diving. Even if air currents take them back to the machine where they cool, their water content does not change. Therefore they cool but never colder than the machine which was a temperature above their dew point.

Most of the wives tales on this matter are the result of higher daytime humidity from lots of sources including humans, overnight cooling below the dew point, and water that condensed when the dew point was reached during the night but not noticed until after the heat comes up a bit.

Another source for the wives tales is the result of excess water someplace (ice, frost, puddles, leaks, people breathing on things, drips, sweaty concrete, wet towels, etc etc) that increase the relative humidity faster than the heater can compensate.

The third source of the wives tales happens with a well sealed cold room that is filled with cold air slightly above the dew point with cold machines and equipment in it. If the doors are opened and a rush of warmer more humid air enters the room (from outside or from inside the house), that warmer air mixes rather quickly with the rest of the room air significantly raising the average overall humidity. Because it usually does have way more moisture in it, that excess water can condense when it encounters the cold machine. Not only that but because warm air holds so much more water than cold air, it doesn't take much cooling from those giant heat sinks to condense that water back out of the air. Here is a rather interesting corrolary of that science. If you mix equal parts of air with one part at 30 degrees F and 50% humidity and the other part at 50 degrees F and also at 50 % humidity, the result is air that will be 40 degrees F, but much higher humidity. Prolly 70 % or so. You can do the exact calc using a psychometric chart if you want by obtaining the pounds of water for both samples and then looking up the humidity using that new total mass. If both parts were at 100%, guess what happens? Yup, lots and lots of dew! This is the outcome of that non-linear relationship I described earlier.

In summary, there is no science to support what you think is happening. Nonetheless, what you saw did happen. You just need to figure out why/how it happened. Hence my desire to help you find it. You cannot fix a problem if you don't know why you have it.

If that doesn't make sense, I'd be happy to try and explain the nuances further and/or explore other explanations with you that you might suggest. Might be better in a phone call to avoid boring other members to death though. Or better yet over a few beers to improve the efficiency of the discussion... LOL!

Edit - here is an experiment you can try. Next time it gets cold in your shop, take a big block of cold steel from your shop, put it in a big zip-lock bag, and then bring it inside the house. No dew will form on it. Do the same thing with another one but leave the bag open. It may or may not end up with condensation on it depending entirely on the humidity level in the house.


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## Degen (Apr 18, 2022)

Sorry to burst you bubble on this one I have documentation to say otherwise after being in the window industry.


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## Susquatch (Apr 18, 2022)

Love to see it @Degen. You already have my contact info. Please send it along. I'll happily retract anything I said that is wrong and then embrace that knowledge going forward. Many times, learning new things means admitting when you are wrong. But just a heads up, I've proven big window companies wrong on several occasions already in my life. Wives tales exist in all fields, and in all industries, at all levels. I'm sure I'm guilty of believing a few too. For example, my father in law could divine water. I still can't understand how he did it, but I watched him do it multiple times. I'd pay money for a scientific paper that explains that one! LOL!


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## StevSmar (Apr 18, 2022)

Degen said:


> Sorry to burst you bubble on this one I have documentation to say otherwise after being in the window industry.


We let our cottage freeze over winter and sometimes in the spring when we go there the windows are all frosted up, on the inside!!!

It happens after a warm spell and then there’s a cold snap.

The cottage is pretty well sealed, though no doubt there is some air infiltration and moister air introduced when it’s warm.

But it surprises me every time I see it, because I think the the relative humidity of the air must have dropped way further as the air heats up, so where did the moisture come from?

It must be something like when the windows get even colder than the inside of the cottage, the water molecules that are bouncing around in the air stick to the windows and freeze and eventually accumulate, regardless of the overall relative humidity of the air?


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## Susquatch (Apr 18, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> We let our cottage freeze over winter and sometimes in the spring when we go there the windows are all frosted up, on the inside!!!
> 
> It happens after a warm spell and then there’s a cold snap.
> 
> ...



Your first instinct is correct. Lots of air does get in and out especially when the temperature changes. In fact, the temp cycles actually force the place to breath in and breathe out as the air expands and contracts.


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## Chicken lights (Aug 24, 2022)

Why would a floor drain stop working? It’s worked fine for 3 years then in the last couple weeks won’t drain. It’s just a hole cut in the slab, with gravel underneath


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## YYCHM (Aug 24, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 25818Why would a floor drain stop working? It’s worked fine for 3 years then in the last couple weeks won’t drain. It’s just a hole cut in the slab, with gravel underneath



Anything stuck in there that would clog it up?  A rag or something?


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## DPittman (Aug 24, 2022)

Saturated soil underneath? Oil soaked soil underneath?


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## Chicken lights (Aug 24, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Anything stuck in there that would clog it up?  A rag or something?


No, nothings changed on my side 


DPittman said:


> Saturated soil underneath? Oil soaked soil underneath?


I wondered saturated soil, if the ground is too wet to accept more 

I wondered if the gravel was “plugged” with silt but logically if it’s been draining, it would stain clean??


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## Susquatch (Aug 24, 2022)

How much rain have you had recently @Chicken lights ? We had 2.5 inches on Monday. The outside water was up 2/3 of our basement windows. It was like looking outside into an aquarium. Fortunately I noticed how much rain was coming down and saw the windowz early enough to be able to use a shop vac to keep up with what came through the window seals. 

If your ground is as saturated as ours is right now, the water has no place to go. I'd bet the gravel under your shop floor is filled with water.


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## Susquatch (Aug 24, 2022)

I don't have a drain in my shop but wish I did.  

If your gravel is saturated, you may have to break an opening for a small pit and sump pump that just shoots water outside a few dozen feet or runs into a storm drain. It would probably only run a few times a year. But it would save you from this.


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## Susquatch (Aug 24, 2022)

@Chicken lights 

You could drill a hole 10 feet away and see how wet the gravel is there. Just drill a hole someplace you can plug later and stick a rod down into the gravel. When you pull it out you will know the story. You could also put a small pump into that hole to act like a sump pump with a water hose going outside till you get the water level down. If you lived close by I have a pump you could use. Crappy tire or home hardware might have a little giant.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 24, 2022)

Imagine he drills 10ft away and water squirts out like a fountain! 

What could have happened is combination of things, not just one, for example, drain was getting clogged more and more, it rained causing water saturation. Both together are now causing the issue. Or maybe even more things, such as some extra dirt etc.


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## Chicken lights (Aug 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> How much rain have you had recently @Chicken lights ? We had 2.5 inches on Monday. The outside water was up 2/3 of our basement windows. It was like looking outside into an aquarium. Fortunately I noticed how much rain was coming down and saw the windowz early enough to be able to use a shop vac to keep up with what came through the window seals.
> 
> If your ground is as saturated as ours is right now, the water has no place to go. I'd bet the gravel under your shop floor is filled with water.


We’ve had a few good rains, leading to me thinking soggy water table 

I would’ve thought a week or two would’ve corrected things, however 

There was some light water spillage 20 feet away, by a crack in the concrete, that was dry by morning 

Just one of those things that makes you ponder about during the day


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## Chicken lights (Aug 24, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> Imagine he drills 10ft away and water squirts out like a fountain!
> 
> What could have happened is combination of things, not just one, for example, drain was getting clogged more and more, it rained causing water saturation. Both together are now causing the issue. Or maybe even more things, such as some extra dirt etc.


I was curious if gravel could get “clogged” with fine sediment, and am not discounting that


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## Degen (Aug 24, 2022)

Depending on how old the house is, these are clay pipes and they collapse unfortunately.  And yes it can happen suddenly.

Solution....start digging.


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## Susquatch (Aug 24, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I was curious if gravel could get “clogged” with fine sediment, and am not discounting that



I have seen clogged gravel but it's rare and it requires a LOT of very slow water flow over a long period of time. Usually it is only localized. 

But you have water coming out of your drain. It had to come from someplace to flow like that. So unless you have a steady water flow INTO the drain that is getting blocked off, your gravel is not plugged.


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## Susquatch (Aug 24, 2022)

Hey, @Chicken lights,

Feel free to call me - even tonight. I know what water problems like that are like. It strikes me that a phone call might be better than posts on a forum thread. I'll help if I can.

PM me if you misplaced my phone number.


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## Degen (Aug 24, 2022)

If you are having back flow this is hydraulic pressure, which means you water table has been raised. This can be local ie high rain fall or global gradual table rise.  High rain fall is like a 1:100 year events so no worries, gradual increase means you have other issues that need investigation.

My field of study oh so many years ago.


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## 6.5 Fan (Aug 25, 2022)

Good luck with the water issues. We have the opposite problem, cracks in the soil that you can lose tools in if you drop them while fixing in the field.


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## Susquatch (Aug 25, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Good luck with the water issues. We have the opposite problem, cracks in the soil that you can lose tools in if you drop them while fixing in the field.



I have a similar problem. Huge giant cracks from the dry spell. Then I got all that rain. I slogged out to look at what was happening. You could see vortices all over the place where the rain water was pouring down the cracks. I think most of the water went down the cracks to the tile to the ditches. The cracks are still there and the mud is gone so you can already walk out there. But you need bring climbing gear just in case you fall into a cravass...... I can only hope some water stayed......


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## Chicken lights (Aug 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I have seen clogged gravel but it's rare and it requires a LOT of very slow water flow over a long period of time. Usually it is only localized.
> 
> But you have water coming out of your drain. It had to come from someplace to flow like that. So unless you have a steady water flow INTO the drain that is getting blocked off, your gravel is not plugged.


The dehumidifier fed the drain/filled the drain/then water just dumped on the floor


Susquatch said:


> Hey, @Chicken lights,
> 
> Feel free to call me - even tonight. I know what water problems like that are like. It strikes me that a phone call might be better than posts on a forum thread. I'll help if I can.
> 
> PM me if you misplaced my phone number.


It’s too late- some of us still work for a living 
*ducks for cover*

But thank you! I’ll mess with it this weekend, the water in the drain was mostly gone earlier today


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## Susquatch (Aug 25, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> The dehumidifier fed the drain/filled the drain/then water just dumped on the floor



I see. The Dehumidifier water should not have any fines in it and should not plug anything. But it might be disolving the stone a bit which could result in calcification. 

My barn Dehumidifier has been going full tilt most of the summer. It usually fills a 5 gal pail once a day. That's a lot of water to dump into the gravel under a concrete floor. 

I dump mine manually. If I couldn't do that I'd run a hose or pipe outdoors. 




Chicken lights said:


> It’s too late- some of us still work for a living
> *ducks for cover*
> 
> But thank you! I’ll mess with it this weekend, the water in the drain was mostly gone earlier today



Ya, I'd be ducking if I were you too! 

But feel free to call. You have my number.


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## jcdammeyer (Sep 10, 2022)

I'll add my two cents here.  My shop is in the carport, closed in and insulated with some vapor barrier.  Some of the walls are concrete as is the floor.  These are not insulated; yet.  As it was a car port the perimeter drain tile (hollow concrete pipe sections) were not around the carport.   The house was built in 1967.  

We bought it in 1997 and a few years ago started seeing water coming up through the basement floor drain.  Because we're on a hill the underground water level would come up against the basement wall and not flow through the now plugged up perimeter drain which BTW, was connected to the floor drain in the basement by that same wall.   Water ran like a river through the shop diagonally from mid January to the end of February.  The odd thing is with just a 1500W fan heater on the floor near the lathe and mill I had no rust problems.

Long story short, we had new plastic perimeter drain done, ($20K) which included now the outside of the car port.  The next winter instead of water the shop was dry.  The water level in the floor drain remained below the concrete level instead of 6" above.  (I had a plastic pipe inserted and calked).

And that winter although I ran the same fan heater everything started rusting.  Steel that had been rust free for 20 years now was in awful shape.   The Gecko Stepper Driver that had been functional for more than 10 years developed fuzz on the power connections, shorted and destroyed itself.  However it was now inside the CNC electrical cabinet rather than hanging on the wall so more likely to attract condensation.

I bought a PA refurbished dehumidifier and also ran the fan heater and was able to stop the rusting the next winter.  This year I plan on insulating the concrete walls in the shop and I'm considering different options for sealing the floor to prevent moisture from coming in that way.

And I have a small Raspberry PiZeroW connected to a DHT-22 RH/Temperature sensor broadcasting a web page.

The trick has been to keep the metal about 5 degrees warmer than the dew point.  Don't care what the RH is since it's derived from the dew point and the temperature (hence 'relative')





And in the last few days I've been running the metal bandsaw with coolant which has often splashed onto the floor so the dehumidifier is fill the bucket more often but nothing is rusting.

IMHO, the key thing is to keep the items that can rust at a temperature above the dew point to prevent condensation from forming on them.


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## Degen (Sep 10, 2022)

One of the things I learned was use a cloth drop sheet over metal machinery.   When the temperature changes so that metal becomes a moisture attractant....the cloth acts like a moisture soak greatly reducing the condensation on the metal.


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## jcdammeyer (Sep 10, 2022)

Degen said:


> One of the things I learned was use a cloth drop sheet over metal machinery.   When the temperature changes so that metal becomes a moisture attractant....the cloth acts like a moisture soak greatly reducing the condensation on the metal.


My SouthBend Heavy 10L arrived before I closed in the carport.   My solution was to use the same technique I used in our sailboat.  A 2' foot long section of 4" aluminum duct sitting on three legs about 3" above the plywood base.   On the plywood under this pipe was a 60W light bulb socket so the bulb was inside the pipe.  I positioned this under the lathe and then draped a blanket and then tarp over the lathe.  

The bulb warmed the air in the pipe and the air rose up drawing in new air from underneath.  The lathe never rusted.   Effectively this heater kept the metal warmer than the dew point.


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