# LED trouble lights



## PeterT (Dec 30, 2021)

My 30 year old corded light bulb trouble light has seen better days, even with LED bulb retrofit. I was looking at modern LED based equivalents. Apparently corded cost as much as battery powered these days & really, why do I want to drag a cord around anyways. But I'm not really keen on yet another battery format, charger etc. I have Milwaukee tools already, so M12 batteries, charger etc. Anyone have any user experience with this one? 200 lumens doesnt sound like a lot. Isn't a regular 100 watt bulb like 1500 lumens? Am I missing something fundamental here?








						Milwaukee M12 12 Volt Lithium-Ion Cordless LED Stick Light  - Tool Only
					

The Milwaukee M12™ LED Stick Light delivers best in class light output and unmatched versatility in a compact and durable design. The stick light utilizes 3 powerful LEDs to provide optimal brightness and light coverage while the multi-position hook




					www.kmstools.com
				




The bigger 18v is only a bit more, 300 lumens








						Milwaukee M18 18 Volt Lithium-Ion Cordless LED Stick Light  - Tool Only
					

Versatile and tough, the M18 stick light features two light settings with three powerful LEDs. The High setting provides 300 lumens for maximum coverage and light output, while the Low setting provides 150 lumens for interior work where a brighter light m




					www.kmstools.com
				




And  for bonus points confusion. I have this little flashlight which is pretty bright. They say brightness = 1600 and 'high lumens'.... whatever that means. Is it because it has a focusing lens it seems bright?


			Amazon.ca


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## Janger (Dec 30, 2021)

Those Milwaukee ones seem pretty dim & expensive to me. 300 lumen? Because I’m a cheap Bstrd I bought this: $15. 1000 lumen.









						Husky 1000 Lumen LED Utility Light | The Home Depot Canada
					

This Utility LED Light features a unique design with durable plastic construction. Ideal for camping or emergency use, it's equipped with super bright LED lighting offering up to 1000 Lumens, 4-hours of run time and 30 m of beam throw. A 180 foldable handle is easy to carry. Can be powered by...




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I put it in the truck. I might get another one as a trouble light.


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## PeterT (Dec 30, 2021)

Yes, that's what I was thinking. When I look at typical 'mechanics' lights or whatever they are called, seems like lumens are all over the map

2880





						AVJONE LED Rechargeable Work Light, Super Powerful and Durable, 16 Hours Working Time. 6 Modes LED Flashlight for Car Repair, Household and Outdoor Use, with Emergency Strobe Function, USB Charging, 2800 Lumens : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

AVJONE LED Rechargeable Work Light, Super Powerful and Durable, 16 Hours Working Time. 6 Modes LED Flashlight for Car Repair, Household and Outdoor Use, with Emergency Strobe Function, USB Charging, 2800 Lumens : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca
				




250


			Amazon.ca


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 30, 2021)

This seems like a simple thread but there can be more to it than lumens, at least for me. I struggled for years with task lighting, going from incandescent trouble lights decades ago to fluorescent, then to LED, but every year I seemed to think, "this isn't good enough." For me the problem wasn't just lumens, but positioning. What I discovered was that no matter how good the lumination, I could never position it the way I wanted. Car repair is a minor issue for me, so a hanging light wasn't as critical as one that could be positioned properly in the shop. Because I do a lot of fabrication, I was always wanting light to shine up from the shop floor to the underside of a steel frame I was welding, for example.

LEDs are a must of course, but I ended up buying a few different Milwaukee versions. The smaller M12's can be pointed almost anywhere, and have the benefit of working as a flashlight as well. They are comfortable to hold and stand upright. The downside is they don't point downwards as much as I would like. But they can be placed on their sides and do come with a hanging hook (can see the black thing projecting from the back of middle light in pic). The next one I use is the six sided M18 one that can be angled or stood on end or hung (but it has no hook). It can be painfully bright, but fortunately has a dimmer setting on it. It's great underneath things, and because of the six sides you can project it along floors, or even downwards. It is a little heavy though, especially with a bigger battery. Lastly I have a tripod M18. It's blindingly powerful (but has three brightness settings). This is the MOAB light that solves all illumination issues because you can position it to be above you and project downwards. The bad thing is it is super pricey. Having said that it has never let me down. It also runs off 110V if needed.

These three approaches solve all my task lighting issues. Once I determined positioning/placement was the real problem and not lumens, I'm never frustrated anymore. I may at some point buy Milwaukee's rechargeable headlamp with strap, but I'll wait for a sale on that one.

That's my two cents worth Peter. Perhaps your needs are different, but my Ah Ha moment related to positioning, not brightness.

P.S. Apologies for the crappy pics. I really do need to go back to decaf.


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## Janger (Dec 30, 2021)

The dewalt one is 1000 lumen apparently the new model is at least.


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## PeterT (Dec 30, 2021)

Good points. Yes the hang-up or positionality is for sure a worthwhile shopping fixture. In that regard the newer lights are better than the old school coat hanger style.

@CalgaryPT if you had to qualitatively compare the Milwaukee M12 to old school 110v trouble light with 100 watt bulb, is it anywhere as comparable illumination wise?
I like the standup profile of the M18 but amazingly I have dodged that voltage format these years. Just have M12 for now.

I wonder if lumens is one parameter but lux (lumens / m2) is what's meaningful when it comes to focusing that light power in trouble light or flashlight mode (vs a 360-deg radiating type light bulb in a ceiling  or wall fixture). Sheesh, how did I get this far in life without knowing how to rate a flashlight properly? LOL


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## Chicken lights (Dec 30, 2021)

I have two of the smaller snap on ones, one at 400 lumens and one at 700 lumens. Great little lights, the head swivels and the bottom has a magnet. The big girl is from Grote at 1100 lumens, but it will dim to a lower setting. Also magnet base.


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Good points. Yes the hang-up or positionality is for sure a worthwhile shopping fixture. In that regard the newer lights are better than the old school coat hanger style.
> 
> @CalgaryPT if you had to qualitatively compare the Milwaukee M12 to old school 110v trouble light with 100 watt bulb, is it anywhere as comparable illumination wise?
> I like the standup profile of the M18 but amazingly I have dodged that voltage format these years. Just have M12 for now.
> ...


I think comparing the two could be misleading, as they are designed for different purposes. The M12s in my pic are more _work lights_—(not as focused as spotlights), but can illuminate a wide circular area pretty well. Trouble lights just seem shower everything in light, resulting in good general lighting but lots of shadows. Trouble lights I find are better compared to floodlights; lots of light scattered over a wide area and tough to focus on a specific area precisely. There are applications where this is what you want, but these are unusual in my case. A worklight such as the M12s in my pic uses much less power (even if you adjust for LED vs incandescent), but because it isn't wasted on the surrounding area it appears dimmer. A quantitative measurement would be a light meter on the nut or bolt you are working on I suppose.

I have two of the M12s in the pic because I like them the most for what I do, but as mentioned your needs may differ. I do give top marks to LEDs and Milwaukee specifically. All the products I have from them so far have been great. I do have an old 100W Trouble light hanging in my shop still. I haven't used it in years, but it reminds me of my dad so I keep it around.

I also purposely glossed over a huge feature because I need to eat some humble pie on this topic—but the portability aspect of all these LED products is bloody amazing. I was no fan of many rechargeable tools until lithium packs came out, but now I feel foolish for damning them (well at least the NiCd ones). It's pretty rare for me to run out of juice these days before I finish a project. Even if I do, they charge really fast. I sure don't miss dragging a 100 foot vinyl cord across the street at -40C to help someone start their car in the middle of the night.


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## Janger (Dec 30, 2021)

Milwaukee gear in general is good. I like everything in that brand that I have purchased. Power and handtools.


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## Chicken lights (Dec 30, 2021)

Janger said:


> Milwaukee gear in general is good. I like everything in that brand that I have purchased. Power and handtools.


Agreed. I was grumbling a bit about the ones I have, but the manager at the bolt store suggested I upgrade batteries first. He said the 1 and 2 amp sizes aren’t even sold with the tools anymore, I’m pretty sure he said 3 amp is the new standard, you can get 5 and 8 too (going from memory). Haven’t had a chance to really see a difference yet. 

However I just got a Milwaukee bit set from a secret Santa exchange, it’s from the USA and has square bits not Robertson 
Those sneaky Americans


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 30, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> ...





Chicken lights said:


> However I just got a Milwaukee bit set from a secret Santa exchange, it’s from the USA and has square bits not Robertson
> Those sneaky Americans


We rarely get to gloat compared to our southern friends, so let's enjoy this brief moment...









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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 30, 2021)

I have 2 of the rechargeable ones that Costco sells, 1 in the shop and 1 in my basement shop. Bright enough to blind you when under a vehicle, actually 2 brightness levels. Seems tough enough around equipment and was reasonable priced.


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## Chicken lights (Dec 30, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> We rarely get to gloat compared to our southern friends, so let's enjoy this brief moment...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too bad we can’t add a medal from the juniors to that list.


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## PeterT (Dec 30, 2021)

2014 video review & maybe older model but maybe 'sheds a bit of light on the illumination' <lol groan>


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## PeterT (Jan 1, 2022)

How can this 29$ Amazon unit make 2800 lumens on 2x Li-18650 cells (assuming series = 2*3.7=7.4v) vs the Milwaukee does 200 lumens on 12v. That's 14x the lumens. I'm sure they are being selective about run time on which intensity mode, but I'm just talking about light power. The Amazon has kind of a sucky USB charge. I'm doubtful the unit has onboard smarts to properly charge a Li cell off fixed output like USB. I'm always leery of these gizmo's for this reason. I probably could rig up one of my RC chargers, but.... pita






						AVJONE LED Rechargeable Work Light, Super Powerful and Durable, 16 Hours Working Time. 6 Modes LED Flashlight for Car Repair, Household and Outdoor Use, with Emergency Strobe Function, USB Charging, 2800 Lumens : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

AVJONE LED Rechargeable Work Light, Super Powerful and Durable, 16 Hours Working Time. 6 Modes LED Flashlight for Car Repair, Household and Outdoor Use, with Emergency Strobe Function, USB Charging, 2800 Lumens : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca


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## John Conroy (Jan 1, 2022)

since my cordless tools are Bosch I have 2 different lights from them. the 1900 lumen one is super blinding but very versatile and has a 5/8-11 threaded hole in the handle that I use to mount it on a tripod. I paid about $75 for it in a moment of weakness but it has proved to be worth every penny.

https://www.amazon.ca/Bosch-GLI18V-...locphy=9001414&hvtargid=pla-423505727198&th=1

The 300 lumen light works well under the hood of a vehicle and is not so bright that it blinds you. A 4 AH battery can run it all day with no problem where the 1900 lumen light kills the same battery in about 3 hours. Both are very rugged and have been dropped a few times without damage other than cosmetic scratches.


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 1, 2022)

PeterT said:


> How can this 29$ Amazon unit make 2800 lumens on 2x Li-18650 cells (assuming series = 2*3.7=7.4v) vs the Milwaukee does 200 lumens on 12v. That's 14x the lumens. I'm sure they are being selective about run time on which intensity mode, but I'm just talking about light power. The Amazon has kind of a sucky USB charge. I'm doubtful the unit has onboard smarts to properly charge a Li cell off fixed output like USB. I'm always leery of these gizmo's for this reason. I probably could rig up one of my RC chargers, but.... pita
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Presumably it's measured by the same standards association that says my 110V Shop Vac that draws 5 Amps is 1HP.


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## DPittman (Jan 1, 2022)

CalgaryPT said:


> Presumably it's measured by the same standards association that says my 110V Shop Vac that draws 5 Amps is 1HP.


Yes that sort of thing really "gets my goat" I rant about the issue to my wife and she just thinks I'm a raving lunatic and doesn't understand the "real  harm" to society by such lying bastards.


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## PeterT (Jan 1, 2022)

Maybe the answer to how a fixed voltage/current via USB charging can work without damaging cells is that you require the correct (protected) cells. Assuming that's what's packaged. I am aware of other lithium cells that work this way.









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What is a 18650; protected versus unprotected cells; best 18650 battery, charger and flashlight; and top picks for best 18650 battery.




					commonsensehome.com
				



_Protected vs Unprotected 18650 Batteries?
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Unprotected 18650 batteries are cheaper, but we do not recommend their use. Unprotected batteries should only be used where the load/draw and charging is externally monitored and controlled. The protected batteries normally have a “button top”, but check the specifications to make sure. Generally 18650 flat top batteries do not include the protection circuit._


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 1, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Maybe the answer to how a fixed voltage/current via USB charging can work without damaging cells is that you require the correct (protected) cells. Assuming that's what's packaged. I am aware of other lithium cells that work this way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to learn more about building power packs. At some point I'll need to replace the ones in my RC Lawnmower. Have you built any from scratch?


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## PeterT (Jan 2, 2022)

Yes & no. Maybe not in your league, but happy to share what little I know when we get together.
I guess I could say old school now, back in the NiCD & NiMH 'round cell' racing days 2004-2006 I made many packs which were end-to-end soldered with hammerhead tip. Anywhere from 7 to 18 cells depending on the configuration (other classes had 30-40 cells). So no inter-cell tabs except for the very end cells & the tabs were 8-10awg equivalent silver/copper bars. In this application direct inter-cell solder was required for minimum resistance, weight & compact form factor. The factory shrink was stripped & replaced with Kapton to take the heat  (gold colored stuff). When Lithium polymer became legal for competition in 2008, it was more buy & fly mode. The packs were, and continue to be, factory made to whatever voltage/capacity/S&P (Series & Parallel) cell configuration, c/w pre-attached balancing harness etc. So our only job was to solder the leads for ESC & abuse them LOL.

I'm not that familiar with the robots/scooters/cars actually, but judging by some of the pictures of 'round cell' packs, eve though they are lithium chemistry, look like array bricks of cells in special trays & then those bricks are inter-wired to build up requisite pack voltage. Some of the joiner bars look quite intricate so I'm actually not sure if they are spot welded or somehow 'fit' because the cells look relatively normal. I'm also not sure how prevalent lithium polymer (rectangular packs) are in e-machines, but guessing they are similar to RC factory packs & then built up with bus bars or something? If you show me what you have for components or what the vision is, I can do what I can to pontificate & drink your beer HaHa. One potential difference is my stuff was 100-250 amps dictated by the motor wind & other factors, whereas I think the robots & such are higher voltage & (relatively) lower cell current. If so that likely translates into different, less onerous cell joinery techniques. I also have a buddy who was big into robot competitions, so we can swab him for intel too. I still want to see your beast in action!


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm planning ahead WRT batteries as the battery pack to power the mower itself is a 40V 5AH one that you can no longer buy. The mowers seem to last forever but lots of people on the internet says the 5AH packs fail after one year. I do have a 2.5 AH backup pack, but I like being able to mow the lawn without recharging packs. Plus, I want to try my hand at making one. I doubt I would be able to disassemble the existing pack and retrofit it with new cells, so I would just make my own enclosure. My pack has 3 terminals on it and from what I understand the third terminal sends a signal when the pack is too hot, and the mower shuts down. I need to figure this part out at some point. I think the terminal just goes high or low when a fault occurs...but I am just guessing.

When this silly virus thing is over we should get together of course. I never expected to use the mower except to do under low hanging trees, but it worked so well I just do the whole lawn with it. I am thinking of Version II at some point, as the swivel differential steering works great on flat surfaces, but is a pain on hills that you need to do lengthwise (up and down is fine). I'd like to build a smaller version with servo steering, a smaller wheelbase and axle track eventually.


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## PeterT (Jan 2, 2022)

Interesting. I assume you have a self contained battery unit repurposed from a power tool? From what I can see, it appears to be a popular format for variety of applications. 








						RYOBI 40V Lithium-Ion 5 Ah High Capacity Battery | The Home Depot Canada
					

If you have a large yard or need extra run time, the RYOBI 40V 5.0 Ah high capacity battery is the perfect addition to your RYOBI 40-Volt collection. This 5.0 Ah battery lasts 2X longer than the standard RYOBI 40V high capacity battery while delivering the same fade-free power and performance...




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You might be right about the 3rd wire. Actually I am mystified by modern, multi-cell packs like power tools. I should delve into it. Typical RC (LiPo) packs have a multi-wire cable harness with wire to each cell, purely for diagnostics. The chargers plug into plus/minus mains of course but this balancing plug is integral to the process. It provides a lot more intel to the true condition of the pack because it knows about the voltage state/capacity/curve for each cell essentially. If a cell has degraded & different voltage (within prescribed limits) it can work its magic to equalize. This maintains pack health through many C/D cycles. My charger (which is nothing special) also displays useful metrics for each cell, even internal resistance. If cell(s) are way out of whack & the algorithm cant it manage it, it will basically say Error mode, not-gunna-do-it.  That's a safety feature because some of the fires you hear about are related to this issue. Higher resistance, more heat etc. 

The old round cell stick packs we made were basically charged from front to rear simultaneously as a pack, so bad cells dragged on the whole system. Those vintage chargers basically guessed at pack condition as a whole only by seeing the additive curve of all cells, weak & strong. So modern Lion packs kinds seem like a hybrid to me. I don't see pinouts that correspond to each cell like LiPo chargers, so it must be assuming 'similar' cells within limits? As mentioned above, I know many cells have a little smart board in them to protect themselves. That's apparently how many appliances work just hooked up to a dumb wall wart or USB type supply. But I can also for sure understand a temperature sensor wire &/or other safety features.

Like I said, my knowledge is a bit narrow banded. I was really into electric stuff at the time but it was rather confined to RC. My robot buddy who also flies said 'its all the same sh*t, just bigger LOL. But soldering something & electronics understanding are 2 different things. These 'flying welders' as we called them were stuffed like a sausage. I managed to re-orient/re-solder the caps on an ESC which allowed a bigger motor & bigger pack. Life was good until an evil elf switched the polarity on me. You don't want to be close when they go bang. I don't know much about capacitors but I know the plus & minus are important LOL. The BBQ picture was <ahem> a fast run but, excessive current.


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## PeterT (Jan 2, 2022)

smart board stuff


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 2, 2022)

Ahh yes, methinks we should pool knowledge at some point. You've got quite a bit more than I do on this topic already. Actually the 5 AH came with the mower (Kobalt). On closer inspection it isn't sealed in fact; there are screws holding it together, so I will take it apart soon to check out the guts. I really want to understand the extra terminals so I can build my own. The pack snaps into the mower and I now see it actually has four, not three pins—so even a bigger challenge to sort these out. But the pack provides voltage for the mower blade only. 

The drive motors (two 24V wheelchair motors) are powered by two 12V 35AH conventional lead acid batteries wired in series. They also power the onboard electronics using a Buck converter to supply a 5VDC bus for the two Arduinos and receiver. The motors are controlled via HD 24V relays, which also control the magnetic brakes on each drive motor via a receiver/relay combination.

There are some onboard electronics to the mower as well, some of which adjust power to the mower blade as needed in tall grass. It took me a while to figure out how to defeat the safety features on the mower as it used a funky mechanical switch in combination with the electronics to start the blade. You have to apply power in a specific, timed, sequence to get it spinning. I had to simulate this electronically.

Don't feel too badly about your capacitors and the polarity issue. I actually fried my Sabertooth 2x60 Controller ($300+) when I over extended a power lead in a bus bar, shorting it against the heat sink. I rushed out and bought a new one, only to discover the company offered to repair the one I damaged for free. Amazing. 

When I take the pack apart I will report back. It may be as simple as replacing the 3.6V cells inside. There is at least one company online that rebuilds these, so it can't be that hard.

On a fabrication note I was shocked the 16G steel box for the electronics didn't inhibit the receiver like a big old Faraday shield or something. I never range tested it, but did leave a shielded pass through just in case I needed to switch to a receiver with an external antenna. In the end it worked fine for the range needed.


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## PeterT (Jan 2, 2022)

I wish I had your electrical knowledge! 
You've probably been YouTube surfing on this topic already but I just googled 'ryobi 40v pack disassembly' to get a feel for what's inside. Looks like 18650 cells, integrated board, plastic racks to align the cells.  Maybe those cells are 'ordinary' and the mini motherboard has the cell management smarts? Mostly I was curious about inter-cell joining & looks like spot welded tabs which is quite common. Pretty sure that's a fully automated robot/factory process. I've made my own replacement packs for drills & such back in the day mostly to use up inventory cells I had kicking around & the drill was worth saving. But sometimes the Dewalts & Makita's of the world make it darn tough, the housing can be crammed to the extent that ONLY weld strips can be used vs solder bars. There are places in town that have that welding equipment, they make up packs that way. I know people who would buy timed out packs & harvest cells. I can see for certain projects that would be viable, but you have to have the gear to capacity check cells individually & that's time consuming. 

Is 5Ahr enough for you? Reason I ask is there are some deep cycle lithium based batteries for boats/RV etc. I'm going t switch to one next season for my field charge battery, much lower weight, better power density. But I think they start around 10Ahr. But 3x12=36v or 4x12=48V maybe not a suitable match to your 40v nominal depending on your requirements.



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Teardown video. Lookout, he's got a saw! LOL


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 2, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I wish I had your electrical knowledge!
> ....
> 
> Is 5Ahr enough for you?


Trust me...I ain't that smart.

5AH is just perfect for my size of lawn in Tuscany. Actually, if I were using the mower as intended (as a push mower), I could likely mow the whole lawn with a 2.5 AH battery. But it actually takes longer with the RC mower as you are always backing up and re-doing patches. The long wheel base makes it tough in corners—despite its differential steering and maneuverability. Part of this is aging hand-eye coordination I suspect. A 14 year old kid with those gigantic XBox thumbs could probably do it in 10 mins 

I'll start compiling a page of links on all this stuff, yours included. I fear the bug to build a Version II is growing in me as we speak and I should probably suppress it for a while...at least until the Christmas VISA bills are paid down.

We'll chat more on this in the future I suspect Peter. It's always great reading your insights.


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