# AXA Tool Holder(s)



## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

I was looking at my AXA tool holders and got to thinking.... With a mill and a shaper I should be able to make these things.







As a first go I thought I'd use some of this funky 1" thick aluminum stock I got from @kevin.decelles and @RobinHood (@Janger originator) Thanks guys.

The trick now was how to liberate that 3" X 1.5" piece on the bandsaw......
















Took some fooling around but I eventually got her LOL....











Next up was throw it on the mill, square it up and mill out the majority of the dove tail






Finally on the shaper.   That setup was a bit of a head scratcher.....






One side of the dove tail done.....






And the second side......






Bummer She's too wide by at least 0.069"  Don't know how that happened..... I checked my tool holders against the Shar's website and came up with the same numbers?

Oh well.  Try again I guess......


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 25, 2022)

Don't worry I screwed up my first set in CX as well - metal was hard and had other issues.

But my 2nd set in AXA came out perfect, way better then Chinese stuff, top quality, like US made stuff. Very snug. 

I may do some more, just boring bar holders in oversize variety, like 1", 1.25" or maybe even huge like 1.5" I probably just make two and add adapters.


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## deleted_user (Jan 25, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I was looking at my AXS tool holders and got to thinking.... With a mill and a shaper I should be able to make these things.
> 
> View attachment 20352
> 
> ...


did you see that video of the guy using hand powered shaper to make tool holders?  You got it easy compared to that guy


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## Everett (Jan 25, 2022)

Hey, process still looks good for a first attempt, even if it is a bit big! I've made a few pieces to fit my BXA post.  I cheated by taking readings between pins on my best-fitting import holder to get my dimensions, even for when I made drawings before starting a project.


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## Ian Moss (Jan 25, 2022)

I have two AXA 250-001 tool holders I ordered in ignorance. The Ali website pic showed the toolpost, but the number indicated the holder. These look well made and even have an inspection sticker ;-). I would part with the two for $20 and $5 shipping if you can't pick them up in Sherwood Park Alberta. Also open to an interesting trade.


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## deleted_user (Jan 25, 2022)

Everett said:


> Hey, process still looks good for a first attempt, even if it is a bit big! I've made a few pieces to fit my BXA post.  I cheated by taking readings between pins on my best-fitting import holder to get my dimensions, even for when I made drawings before starting a project.



You know that line from The Hunt for Red October... "The average ruskie son, dont take a dump without a plan". I modified it for my motto,... I need a full set of construction drawings before I even get out of bed.

not being a machinist it helps me work out the order of operations


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

Ian Moss said:


> I have two AXA 250-001 tool holders I ordered in ignorance. The Ali website pic showed the toolpost, but the number indicated the holder. These look well made and even have an inspection sticker ;-). I would part with the two for $20 and $5 shipping if you can't pick them up in Sherwood Park Alberta. Also open to an interesting trade.



Hmmmm.... isn't 250-001 actually a 0XA tool holder?


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

One tool holder i bought had a shim jb welded in. Worked fine.


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

dfloen said:


> One tool holder i bought had a shim jb welded in. Worked fine.



Ya, I've been thinking about that, just haven't found the right shim material yet.


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## Ian Moss (Jan 25, 2022)

Hold the presses. Craig pointed out to me that what I have is OXA not AXA. They are available if anyone wants them.


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

Craig, i did one on my shaper that i spent a lot of time on before cutting the dovetails...i should have cut the dovetail first...but i ended up welding it up and recutting it, and it worked out great.


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Craig, i did one on my shaper that i spent a lot of time on before cutting the dovetails...i should have cut the dovetail first...but I ended up welding it up and re-cutting it, and it worked out great.



Ya, I hear you on that.  Not going to finish to dimension again until the dovetail proves out.  The other thing that has occurred to me is that the dovetail could probably be cut with a fly cutter on the mill....maybe?


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, I hear you on that.  Not going to finish to dimension again until the dovetail proves out.  The other thing that has occurred to me is that the dovetail could probably be cut with a fly cutter on the mill....maybe?


Maybe. I bought a few dovetail cutters on Ebay for the mill, so i've been using those now.


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## whydontu (Jan 25, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I was looking at my AXA tool holders and got to thinking.... With a mill and a shaper I should be able to make these things.
> 
> View attachment 20352
> 
> ...


now I see the appeal of a shaper. looks like fun.


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

whydontu said:


> now I see the appeal of a shaper. looks like fun.



Ya, it is....and rather relaxing.... swish, swish, swish, swish as you stand there down feeding the tool.  Figuring out tool geometry can be frustrating though, lots of chatter if it's not right.


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## Dan Dubeau (Jan 26, 2022)

Bummer about the fitment, but the old saying goes, those who've never make mistakes, never make anything.  

If you shim it permanently, make sure to do it on the back side.  It's the front side (closest to spindle) of the dovetail that is the most critical register surface for repeatable tool changes (part diameter), and the back is basically for tightening.  Not sure what kind of toolpost you have or whether it registers on the face of the block, the tails themselves, or the bottom of the dovetail slot, but you might be able to get away with cutting that off, cleaning it up and remounting it with SHCS in a tighter position.  Or even making a new block that screws on.  There are lots of ways to fix it, but the answer depends on some variables.  I think an epoxied shim would be more than servicable for an aluminum toolholder.  If it falls off after x number of uses, just re glue it.  You could also bend it over the edges and screw it that way too.  The clamping force of the toolpost will hold it where it needs to be in use.  

I made my OXA holders out of a big long rusty and bent piece of steel I bought at a farm auction many years ago (apart of a bigger lot of a bunch of steel bought for less than scrap).  You never know what can be hiding inside a piece of material until you start cutting.


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> You never know what can be hiding inside a piece of material until you start cutting.



Ain't that the truth. I have thousand stories about things I have found buried inside rusty old farm parts! I already posted about one of them. 

Thread 'Weird Forged Block' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/weird-forged-block.4304/


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## Dan Dubeau (Jan 26, 2022)

I tend to buy, scrounge and hang onto material because I can see what they _CAN_ be, not what they are currently.   I can always find an alternative use for something lol


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## Hacker (Jan 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, it is....and rather relaxing.... swish, swish, swish, swish as you stand there down feeding the tool.  Figuring out tool geometry can be frustrating though, lots of chatter if it's not right.


Sort of like watching a power hacksaw. I drag mine out every now and then just to watch it work. LOL


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## RobinHood (Jan 26, 2022)

@YYCHM , as has been stated, your process is right on the money. The fit is a bit off, but you can fix that.

For your second attempt I suggest you make a vise stop for the shaper. It will allow you to take the part out of the vise to try and fit it onto the tool post. This allows you to sneak up on dimensions.

Remember with dovetails, both the depth and and width need to be correct for proper fitment. Measuring across pins is a combination of both depth and width. So it may be perfect, but still won’t fit.


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Remember with dovetails, both the depth and and width need to be correct for proper fitment. Measuring across pins is a combination of both depth and width. So it may be perfect, but still won’t fit.



This is VERY good advice. Most people would probably not realize that.


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## Tom O (Jan 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I was looking at my AXA tool holders and got to thinking.... With a mill and a shaper I should be able to make these things.
> 
> View attachment 20352
> 
> ...


That’s a lot of stick out from the clapper.


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## YYCHM (Jan 26, 2022)

Tom O said:


> That’s a lot of stick out from the clapper.



That's the only way I could get the tool positioned properly.


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## Ian Moss (Jan 26, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> @YYCHM , as has been stated, your process is right on the money. The fit is a bit off, but you can fix that.
> 
> For your second attempt I suggest you make a vise stop for the shaper. It will allow you to take the part out of the vise to try and fit it onto the tool post. This allows you to sneak up on dimensions.
> 
> Remember with dovetails, both the depth and and width need to be correct for proper fitment. Measuring across pins is a combination of both depth and width. So it may be perfect, but still won’t fit.


I find this interesting. Can you point me to more info on why the two dowel measurement may not work. I have only done it once, on a split bed Boley lathe with/     \ "dovetail" and it worked perfectly.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 26, 2022)

Ian Moss said:


> I find this interesting. Can you point me to more info on why the two dowel measurement may not work. I have only done it once, on a split bed Boley lathe with/     \ "dovetail" and it worked perfectly.



He means if you did too deep the method will not measure wide properly. Think 3D.

To do a perfect AXA you need to measure depth first and get it right. Should not be hard. Once depth is correct two dove pins or two end mills (me) work perfectly. You can match Aloris fit.


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## 140mower (Jan 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> That's the only way I could get the tool positioned properly.


I made this little "sled", (I don't know what to call it) to hold my shaper tooling. In this case it is for 5/8" tool steel the tee clamps the bit in place, and the little slot running down it is for the cutting oil to run down, it kinda acts like a little reservoir as long as it is narrow and the oil is thick...


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## 140mower (Jan 26, 2022)

I  quickly mocked this up for the picture, so angles and such are only approximate, makes for a fairly rigid set-up. I use the sled for almost all of my tool holding.


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## RobinHood (Jan 26, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> He means if you did too deep the method will not measure wide properly. Think 3D.



Yup, exactly what you said Tom. Thanks.

Sorry Ian, I should have been more precise.


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## YYCHM (Jan 26, 2022)

140mower said:


> I  quickly mocked this up for the picture, so angles and such are only approximate, makes for a fairly rigid set-up. I use the sled for almost all of my tool holding. View attachment 20389



Ok...... what size tool holder is that?  How many deg is the head tilted over?  How long is the tool?  60 deg grind on the tool?


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## 140mower (Jan 26, 2022)

It has been a while since I made mine, I seem to recall setting the top slide over 30 degrees from the 90, so, 60 degrees. The tool angle isn't all that important as long as you have clearance all round, I just kept grinding, until I was happy with the clearances, it's the top slide angle, not the grind that determines the finished angle. The tool is 5/8" x 4" and is a fairly tight sliding fit in the sled, which in turn is a snug fit in the tool post. Pay particular attention to clapper angle to be sure it swings away from the work.


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 26, 2022)

Fascinating story.  Still really want to build the Gingery shaper.  I was doing something on my Gingery lathe the other day and became very annoyed with the fact that I don't have anything like an AXA tool holder on it like I have on my Southbend.  Your project has me thinking of creating a set of AXA type tools for the Gingery.  Might have to build the shaper first unless dovetail cutters can be used.


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## Aliva (Jan 27, 2022)

Just a suggestion, when measuring between the dovetail pins, use an adjustable parallel.  Then mic the parallel, the parallel puts equal pressure along the pin, thus eliminating any possible error


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## Ian Moss (Jan 27, 2022)

Interesting idea. I will try it next time I have occasion. I have a set of adjustable parallels that I have not used yet.


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## YYCHM (Jan 27, 2022)

Bit of an update....






Left - I was able to salvage the first holder that turned out too wide by JB welding in a brass shim.  Seem to hold just fine.

Right - My second attempt turned out too wide as well but not as bad as the first.  Initial test fitting would not mount on the tool post so I put it back onto the shaper for a sneak up pass.  Something must have moved with my tool setup as the second pass shaved too much off.  Again needing to JB welding on a shim.

Top - I'll take one more kick at the can, this time in steel, but not before grinding a new tool.  I want to eliminate that funky tool setup with something a little more inline and rigid.

Craig


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2022)

Today was steel attempt day.....






A little saner setup.... BUT....






Had to nibble it down in steps in order to avoid chatter...






Second dove tail done.. AND now the big moment...






Frack...... too wide by the thickness of jigsaw blade

Maybe one more attempt in aluminum....


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## Susquatch (Jan 28, 2022)

Makes me want to try with a milling bit instead.....


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## Dan Dubeau (Jan 28, 2022)

If I can make a suggestion.....Get yourself some layout dye, or a sharpie marker and use the too big one to scribe lines on the next peice so that you have a visual reference to go by.  Take it one step further and offset one of the lines by the thickness of the shim needed to bring it in spec, and you now have reference lines to go by.  When cutting the new one, leave the lines at first, then measure, and take a finish pass to bring into size.

If I can make a joke.....At this point it might be better to just make the toolpost bigger .


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## Darren (Jan 28, 2022)

maybe you need some table stops, maybe micrometer stops. Also, you could make a blank that closely fits in a tool holder that fits your post well. like a checking guage. Also, your tool bit looks like you could move it up a bit.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Yup, exactly what you said Tom. Thanks.


Are you guys trying to say the dovetail depth (D) has to be within a tolerance (as well as distance between dowel pins of course)? Dimension B is a bad reference for practical machinists IMO.

Craig what size of dowels are you using & what size of dovetail?


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Are you guys trying to say the dovetail depth (D) has to be within a tolerance (as well as distance between dowel pins of course)? Dimension B is a bad reference for practical machinists IMO.
> 
> Craig what size of dowels are you using & what size of dovetail?



Peter, those published dimensions don't work on this offshore tool post.  I tried the 1.37" (34.8 mm) B dimension the first go and it was way too wide.  Then I tried 30 mm and that seemed to be too narrow (but close).  This try was with 32mm as a compromise but ended up being too wide again.  Seems to be a very fine line as to what the magic value is.  Can't use the factory tool holders to measure by as all the corners and edges are rounded off (significantly).


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## Janger (Jan 28, 2022)

Craig I had this explained to me by dabbler. You put two dowel pins into the dove tail slots one at each end and measure the distance between them. That will give you a measurement you can then aim for with the one you are making. I think there is a calculation to determine the distance from the pin into the corner … that’s not coming to mind right now. Try this anyway I think it will get you there.


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## Susquatch (Jan 28, 2022)

Janger said:


> I think there is a calculation to determine the distance from the pin into the corner …



I don't think so. You would have to precisely know the angle of the sides to calculate the pin to corner distance.


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## 140mower (Jan 28, 2022)

When I did mine, I took out the middle section first to full depth using a depth mike to be sure, and within .005" on the width, then did the dove tails, stepping over every .010" and hand feeding the down feed until I almost reached the top, leaving about .020" landing at the top. Then I flipped my tool over for the other side and repeated. I set up a dial indicator once I started getting close..... I wish my slabs had been a little longer, as I only got three per setup, six would have been nice, but my junk pile doesn't support all my wants, only most of my needs. 
You might want to get a little sharper angle on your tool with a nice sharp tip to reduce the chatter some.....


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Sort of like watching a power hacksaw. I drag mine out every now and then just to watch it work. LOL



Ya, I have one of those to.  Love it.  If I don't box it in, it wanders all over the basement floor LOL.  Don't use it much after getting the bandsaw though.


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 28, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, I have one of those to.  Love it.  If I don't box it in, it wanders all over the basement floor LOL.  Don't use it much after getting the bandsaw though.


I sold my Gingery Hacks and Slip roll after I bought a used bandsaw and the 3:1 tool.  I must admit I make more boxes now with the 3D printer than I do with the shear and brake.

I went down and checked and the only dove tail cutter I have is 1/2" x 45 degrees.  I held it up against one of the AXA tool holders and it's clearly not 45 degrees plus this one is too small anyway.  But it might just work to make a smaller sub AXA size with a piston type mechanism.


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 28, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Are you guys trying to say the dovetail depth (D) has to be within a tolerance (as well as distance between dowel pins of course)? Dimension B is a bad reference for practical machinists IMO.


Perhaps check my math here.  Assuming A and B are correct for the ASA tool holder then (A-B)/2=Adjacent side while D is the Opposite side so  arctan(Opp/Adj) = dovetail angle.
(1.64-1.37)/2=0.135" and D=0.383" so ArcTan(0.383/0.135)=70.58 degrees.  Somehow that strikes me as wrong?  You'd think they would make that angle 60 degrees.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 28, 2022)

Wow, you guys make me look like master machinist. My AXA fit very snug, all 3 of them - but I doubt I could do them as well on a shaper - the mill is my ticket. 

The pin method is not hard at all - just use 2 pins, place them in known good AXA. measure precisely the distance. Then measure the depth - how deep you square EM needs to get. Then how narrow is the opening. 

First cut the depth, then the opening. Now you have a square block with a rectangle cut in it.

Now with a dovetail cutter touch on each side and for the depth. Put all in DRO. Now start cutting same amount per side, both sides. Exactly the same.

Now measure with two pins. Note how far off you are. Cut exactly that.

Now you made a part that is like +-0.002 off the original AXA. 

On a shaper, without a DRO this is much more difficult. I guess I would try to do the same, but you need to play a LOT with the dials. 

On related note, would DRO be of any use on a shaper? I have some extra scales.


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## RobinHood (Jan 28, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Are you guys trying to say the dovetail depth (D) has to be within a tolerance (as well as distance between dowel pins of course)?


Yes, absolutely!

Here is an illustration to explain why.




In both cases the distance between the pins is equal. The one on the left has a shallower D distance. The D dimension on the right is larger. Since the wedge pulls the holder against the tool post, D is important since it is defining the second reference surface.

Craig, looks like your dovetail angle is off a bit as well.





I would measure the tool post across pins. Set the wedge about 1/2 of it’s travel. Then use a calculator like this http://www.machinist-calculator.com/Dovetail-calculations.html to determine the distance across the same pins of the holder. After you have the holder fitting, just open the base and one side a bit for better operability.


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 28, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> Wow, you guys make me look like master machinist. My AXA fit very snug, all 3 of them - but I doubt I could do them as well on a shaper - the mill is my ticket.


What angle dovetail cutter did you use?


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

_RH>Yes, absolutely!_
That's what I figured. Need to pay attention to tool post dimension D

I was going to draw up Craig's pin diameters to get the distance, but better yet, the dovetail web app you linked has everything there.


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2022)

The Shars website publishes this...









H  0.386
L1 1.687
L2 1.382

I'm beginning to doubt that what I have is actually 60 deg.  I'll try @RobinHood's website with some end mill shanks as pins tomorrow.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Perhaps check my math here.  Assuming A and B are correct for the ASA tool holder then (A-B)/2=Adjacent side while D is the Opposite side so  arctan(Opp/Adj) = dovetail angle.
> (1.64-1.37)/2=0.135" and D=0.383" so ArcTan(0.383/0.135)=70.58 degrees.  Somehow that strikes me as wrong?  You'd think they would make that angle 60 degrees.



Right you are. WTF. 
I know we have discussed this before. I just cant recall what the conclusion was. Error in drawing? Custom tool holder? Maybe this explains some of the fit / no fit issues


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 28, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Right you are. WTF.
> I know we have discussed this before. I just cant recall what the conclusion was. Error in drawing? Custom tool holder? Maybe this explains some of the fit / no fit issues


I'm going to guess just like the shars drawing that these are all sketches and not mechanical design drawings.  So the dimensions are approximate without taking into account corner radius or bevel.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

Agree. One stands a slightly better chance with the theoretical point to point diagram of the Aloris/Dorian sketch, just leaving the radius which probably isn't too critical give the generous chamfer of the TP male. . The Shars diagram is messed up, bad dimensioning practice.

Back to the angle discrepency, I have seen plenty of references to 60-deg Aloris, so something is not right. Is the chart in error? If it was a special angle that precluded common commercial cutters I could see it as an attempt to keep buying the compatible brand. But seems like people swap them on & off with other systems all the time & are predominantly 60-deg?

I got the pic from here








						Precise 6 Piece Quick Change Tool Post Sets
					

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.




					www.penntoolco.com


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## Six O Two (Jan 28, 2022)

Using PeterT's linked dimensions, the theoretical opening with no radius is 1.198", assuming 60deg dovetails. Shars' numbers seem... fishy


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 28, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> Using PeterT's linked dimensions, the theoritical opening with no radius is 1.198", assuming 60deg dovetails. Shars' numbers seem... fishy


On this drawing the math works out to 60 degrees.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 29, 2022)

God maybe I just make a video of doing this. Its not that hard. Well, maybe on the shaper it is hard. You guys are totally over thinking this. Totally. 
First of all did I say get dimensions of the web? NO. I measured known tool holder and sticked to that measurement. My tool holders will almost 95% not fit Shars tool post. But they fit mine like a glove. I have Armstrong and it is same size as Aloris (or very close) and my AXA will not fit much wider Shars. Part of the reason I would not buy expensive tool holders from say Accusize - they rattle and are too big. But at say $10 a pop I can be convinced - sure they fit like crap but they were more or less free.


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## Susquatch (Jan 29, 2022)

Silly question @YYCHM .  

Why not cut the dovetail on your mill instead of on your shaper?


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## Aliva (Jan 29, 2022)

This video may give you some tips. Pierre from Montreal


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## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

Yup, one of many examples stating Dorian or Aloris TP with 60-deg dovetails. That would infer dimension diagram in PennTool link is bogus.


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## jcdammeyer (Jan 29, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Silly question @YYCHM .
> 
> Why not cut the dovetail on your mill instead of on your shaper?


The answer for me would be (if I had a shaper trying to do this of course) is I can easily create a cutter from HSS.  I don't have a large 60 degree dovetail cutter for the mill.  But I don't have a shaper so I'd have to buy a dovetail cutter and use the mill.

Or would I?

Having said that I do have, and they are fairly cheap, a set of three fly cutters bought at Busy Bee Tools ages ago.








						FLY CUTTER 1/2IN. 3PC SET
					

Busy Bee Tools is Canada's largest Woodworking & Metalworking retailer. Find power tools, woodworking tools & metalworking tools at factory direct prices.




					www.busybeetools.com
				




I guess once could create a 60 degree tool for one of those.  The depth of cut is 0.383" so likely a 3/8" piece of HSS would just work although it would have to be ground down to 5/16" to fit.  Or 1/2" brazed to a piece of steel and then hardened again.

But again, if one has a shaper why not use it since that's the type of thing it was meant to do.


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> But again, if one has a shaper why not use it since that's the type of thing it was meant to do.



Yup, that's the point exactly.  The fly cutter idea has crossed my mind as well.


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> Using PeterT's linked dimensions, the theoretical opening with no radius is 1.198", assuming 60deg dovetails. Shars' numbers seem... fishy
> 
> View attachment 20465



This sounds about right.  When I created a 1.18" opening to start the dove tail it was a tad too narrow.

I'm not convinced these holders are actually 60 deg.  Look to be 60 deg using a protractor but maybe they are actually 70 deg as someone has pointed out already.


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## DPittman (Jan 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> This sounds about right.  When I created a 1.18" opening to start the dove tail it was a tad too narrow.
> 
> I'm not convinced these holders are actually 60 deg.  Look to be 60 deg using a protractor but maybe they are actually 70 deg as someone has pointed out already.


FWIW 
Here's a picture of a 60 degree dovetail cutter sitting in one of my import AXA tool holders


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## CalgaryPT (Jan 29, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> Bummer about the fitment, but the old saying goes, those who've never make mistakes, never make anything.


Love it Dan. Great quote. 

I saw an epitaph once that said, "Perfection is an insult to the Gods." I love that. Don't want to be incurring the wrath of those Gods— they're always casting out thunderbolts on mortals or throwing babies down mountainsides etc. Nasty business.

It was my tagline for years. It's a great model for the shop, as well as life actually.


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

Darn..... this calculates everything but the angle..... http://www.machinist-calculator.com/Dovetail-calculations.html


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## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

Does the freebie version not allow entry?


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## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

If you give me the dimensions like my post #52 I can show a similar resultant angle.


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Does the freebie version not allow entry?
> View attachment 20471


Roll diameter and Angle is required input.  Angle isn't calculated based on other measurements.


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## eotrfish (Jan 29, 2022)

Craig

There is a simple way to check the angle of your AXA dovetails.  You could do the math but it's much easier to just use two different diameter dowel pins.  3/16 and 1/4 work well for AXA dovetails.  Measure between the pins with an adjustable parallel.  The differences may not be exactly what I have laid out depending on the accuracy of the dowel pins but you should see something close to 0.171" if the dovetail is actually 60 Degrees.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> If you give me the dimensions like my post #52 I can show a similar resultant angle.



I can't provide those dimensions, all the corners and edges of the factory tool holders are rounded off (significantly).


----------



## Dan Dubeau (Jan 29, 2022)

CalgaryPT said:


> Love it Dan. Great quote.
> 
> I saw an epitaph once that said, "Perfection is an insult to the Gods." I love that. Don't want to be incurring the wrath of those Gods— they're always casting out thunderbolts on mortals or throwing babies down mountainsides etc. Nasty business.
> 
> It was my tagline for years. It's a great model for the shop, as well as life actually.


I can't take credit for it.  Paul Edwards, a journeyman Patternmaker/Toolmaker I used to work with used to say it a lot.   Great man, who taught me a lot. 

Perfection is an insult to the gods is a good one too.  Perfection is the enemy of completion is one that creeps into my projects all to often, and a constant struggle......

I need to make some of these into signs for the shop to remind myself sometimes lol


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

eotrfish said:


> Craig
> 
> There is a simple way to check the angle of your AXA dovetails.  You could do the math but it's much easier to just use two different diameter dowel pins.  3/16 and 1/4 work well for AXA dovetails.  Measure between the pins with an adjustable parallel.  The differences may not be exactly what I have laid out depending on the accuracy of the dowel pins but you should see something close to 0.171" if the dovetail is actually 60 Degrees.
> 
> View attachment 20472



Rats.... don't have any dowel pins to try this with.  All my endmills are 3/8 or 1/2 shank.


----------



## Janger (Jan 29, 2022)

Turn down some stock to 1/4.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

Janger said:


> Turn down some stock to 1/4.



Thought had crossed my mind all ready.  Something else that occurred to me is that I need to devise a method of checking that the shaper head down feed is actually tracking 30 deg.  So far I have assumed the angle graduations on the head swivel were accurate.


----------



## Tom O (Jan 29, 2022)

Can’t you use a original one and then use a dial on it for setting up?


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Thought had crossed my mind all ready.  Something else that occurred to me is that I need to devise a method of checking that the shaper head down feed is actually tracking 30 deg.  So far I have assumed the angle graduations on the head swivel were accurate.


I suppose, but there's only a 1/4" of dove tail flat available to check.


----------



## Tom O (Jan 29, 2022)

Use a last word indicator on it or extend it with a piece of hss clamped/pressed to its surface and read off it.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I can't provide those dimensions, all the corners and edges of the factory tool holders are rounded off (significantly).


Ah, ok, I thought you were trying to work out a resultant dimension. @eotrfish has a good suggestion. As long as you have 2 identical dowels of 2 sizes his layout method will work.

And yes, that was my next question. How do you know the shaper is feeding at exactly the target angle. Usually those graduated lines are just to ballpark. It would be better if you could set a 60-deg triangle in there & traverse down a longer length with an indicator.

Backing up a bit, are you saying you do have a commercial 60-deg toolholder that fits your TP, or you don't even have that as a reference?


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Backing up a bit, are you saying you do have a commercial 60-deg toolholder that fits your TP, or you don't even have that as a reference?



I have 5 commercial tool holders that fit the TP.  They all appear to be 60 deg using a protractor as the measurement device.  A 60 deg carbide insert appears to fit the dove tail just fine as well.

Yes... I need to check that the shaper tool head is actually tracking 30 deg down.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

Oh, then you are practically home free ! LOL

Another thing that might be messing you up, see how @eotrfish shows the relief step on the back surface. Your dowel must be tangent to the actual dovetail surface like his circles. If you used too big a dowel diameter (red circle) resting on on the relief surface, then the inter-dowel distance measurement will be erroneous. Same thing for measuring/duplicating the dovetail depth. It must be from face of dovetail to arrow surface, not the relief. Something like a vernier probably is error prone because there may not be much surface to contact. Best if you can lay in a block of known thickness across the flats & measure distance with a depth mic.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 29, 2022)

Dan Dubeau said:


> I can't take credit for it.  Paul Edwards, a journeyman Patternmaker/Toolmaker I used to work with used to say it a lot.   Great man, who taught me a lot.
> 
> Perfection is an insult to the gods is a good one too.  Perfection is the enemy of completion is one that creeps into my projects all to often, and a constant struggle......
> 
> I need to make some of these into signs for the shop to remind myself sometimes lol



Here is a varient of that one that I personally like:

"Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good."


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

Not sure this proves anything but I thought I'd try it.....






I'm seeing a half thou discrepancy traversing from the top of the dove tail to the bottom.  There's only a 1/4" of dove tail flat in there.


----------



## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

Thats a wee bit much. Since you already have the indicator set up, should be able to make it zero fairly easy. is the gib snug?


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Thats a wee bit much. Since you already have the indicator set up, should be able to make it zero fairly easy. is the gib snug?



By 1/2 thou I mean 0.0005" is that 1/2 thou? I think I might end up chasing my tail if I try and get it any closer.  The indicator starts at 0 then jumps to 1/2 thou at 1/4 span, returns to 0 at 1/2 span and ends up 1/2 thou at full span.  Does the same routine when backing out.  Flaws in the face maybe?






This is the steel holder.  Looks pretty darn close to me and they all lock up solid from what I can tell.


----------



## thestelster (Jan 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Thought had crossed my mind all ready.  Something else that occurred to me is that I need to devise a method of checking that the shaper head down feed is actually tracking 30 deg.  So far I have assumed the angle graduations on the head swivel were accurate.


You need to stick a sine bar in there at the 30degrees.  Attach your DTI onto the tool head with the probe on the sine bar. As you advance the tool head the indicator should read zero the whole length of the sine bar, if not, adjust the tool head until it does.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

And even with 0.0000" DTI runout, your steel blank might be stress relieving once a big asymmetrical notch has been removed from one side.
My China block surfaces look ground, maybe semi hardened? ** meant to add, maybe heat normalized as part of process**


----------



## thestelster (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> And even with 0.0000" DTI runout, your steel blank might be stress relieving once a big asymmetrical notch has been removed from one side.
> My China block surfaces look ground, maybe semi hardened?


I agree.  Never use cold rolled steel unless you are machining rounds on the lathe, or drilling right through on plate.  I remember years ago I need to machine  .040" off the top of a 1/4" thick by 1/2" wide piece of cold rolled, when I took it out of the milling machine vice, it looked more like a banana!  I use hot rolled steel, or prehardened tool steel for anything intricate.  I've never used Stressproof, but I understand that would work as well.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

I've used (turned) 1144 SP (Stressproof), it's nice, but I've only seen available in round.
I've wondered what would be comparable alloy in chunky rectangular stock, any recommendations?


----------



## thestelster (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I've used (turned) 1144 SP (Stressproof), it's nice, but I've only seen available in round.
> I've wondered what would be comparable alloy in chunky rectangular stock, any recommendations?


I've used quite a bit of Uddelholm Impax Supreme: https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/44/2018/08/Tech-Uddeholm-Impax-Supreme-EN.pdf

Prehardened to around HRC30.  It cuts beautifully.  With carbide with 0.020" depth of cut, the surface is like a mirror.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 29, 2022)

Swedish tool steel. My god man. I live here. All we have is cows, CO2 & 90% of our steel is round & hollow LOL. 
Joking aside, it would be interesting to try that. I have had very little experience with 4140 but I've seen some nice fixtures & tooling made from (maybe specific HT) grades. I might stand a better chance of acquiring that.


----------



## thestelster (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Swedish tool steel. My god man. I live here. All we have is cows, CO2 & 90% of our steel is round & hollow LOL.
> Joking aside, it would be interesting to try that. I have had very little experience with 4140 but I've seen some nice fixtures & tooling made from (maybe specific HT) grades. I might stand a better chance of acquiring that.


Haha!!  

sales.canada@uddeholm.com  2595 Meadowvale Blvd. Mississauga, ON L5N 7Y3


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jan 29, 2022)

Here is exact process. Took 2h not including squaring the part. 
You can see each step. 
Depth is 0.375. Wide is 1.3 this is for square hole. 
For dovetail cut. 0.17 per side. Distance between 1/4 em pins is. 0.990. 

This fits Armstrong with tiny wobble, maybe few thou. Way better then shars. 

This will be for 1in boring bar. 

Hope you guys find this of use. Just did it today, on my birthday.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> Hope you guys find this of use. Just did it today, on my birthday.



Happy birthday Tom.

Ya, I could get a 60 deg endmill and it would go a hell of a lot faster... but but but... I have a shaper that should do the same thing


----------



## Tom O (Jan 29, 2022)

Happy birthday Tom!


----------



## Darren (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> And even with 0.0000" DTI runout, your steel blank might be stress relieving once a big asymmetrical notch has been removed from one side.
> My China block surfaces look ground, maybe semi hardened? ** meant to add, maybe heat normalized as part of process**


 That can happen on cold rolled. I had issues with that on my taper attachment build. Hot rolled not so much.


----------



## Janger (Jan 29, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Swedish tool steel. My god man. I live here. All we have is cows, CO2 & 90% of our steel is round & hollow LOL.
> Joking aside, it would be interesting to try that. I have had very little experience with 4140 but I've seen some nice fixtures & tooling made from (maybe specific HT) grades. I might stand a better chance of acquiring that.


I busted a gut laughing thanks Peter haha. Moo


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 30, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Swedish tool steel. My god man. I live here. All we have is cows, CO2 & 90% of our steel is round & hollow LOL.



This was absolutely HILARIOUS! All we have is cows and CO2.

BUT Only 90% of our steel???


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

And finally success.... no shim required






Started out a good 2mm too narrow and worked the dove tail open a smidge at a time on the shaper.  Was an all afternoon venture

Question - Are the aluminum holders worth finishing or will they just give me grief down the road?


----------



## PeterT (Jan 30, 2022)

Maybe for light duty but why bother unless its just prototyping for the real ones. Guessing 6061 aluminum but anyways certainly won't be as strong as steel for this application. Not just the dovetail but the toolholder slot set screws. 

Re the set screws, my early China ones were actually IMP but seems like they are all now metric, M8? You can get dog point style on Ebay/Ali pretty reasonably but I've used regular set screws too.


----------



## Dusty (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> And finally success.... no shim required
> 
> View attachment 20527
> 
> ...



Well done Craig, been waiting for this post only because you're a dogmatic (pit bull) kind of hobbyist. Yes steel is the way forward along with a small bag of dog point set screws and you will never look back. Just saying!


----------



## 140mower (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> And finally success.... no shim required
> 
> View attachment 20527
> 
> ...


I don't know if I would use the aluminum ones for cutting, but one could certainly hold an indicator and the other a bump tool, or some other light duty use..... they would be perfect for that.


----------



## DPittman (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> And finally success.... no shim required
> 
> View attachment 20527
> 
> ...


Good job man, I admire your perseverance.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> And finally success.... no shim required
> 
> View attachment 20527
> 
> ...


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 30, 2022)

I measured the dovetail angle on my BXA tool post and tool holders today using 3 different methods. A magnifying comparator, pins of different ODs, and a gauge. They are all as close to 60° as I could reasonably conclude.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 30, 2022)

Well, somehow I buggered that up... Lol


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

140mower said:


> Well, somehow I buggered that up... Lol



You added your comment inside the quote LOL....

I hear what your saying..... with a 8" stroke and each holder being 1.5" wide one could make 4 at a time.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 30, 2022)

140mower said:


> Well, somehow I buggered that up... Lol



You can always edit the post or even delete it and start over....


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You can always edit the post or even delete it and start over....



No he can't.  That's a premium member privilege unless things have changed.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> No he can't.  That's a premium member privilege unless things have changed.


Even if I did, I would probably only bugger it up worse. Lol.  Better to leave it be and let the youngun's have a chuckle at another old fart online....


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Re the set screws, my early China ones were actually IMP but seems like they are all now metric, M8? You can get dog point style on Ebay/Ali pretty reasonably but I've used regular set screws too.


Tool set screws are M8-1.25.  Any idea what the height adjustment screw is?  Looks to be M10 with a fine thread?


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> No he can't.  That's a premium member privilege unless things have changed.



I think you are right. IIRC, new members have very restricted rights, regular members have editing rights, and premium members can delete posts as well as also being able to edit titles etc. There may be some time limits in there too.



140mower said:


> Even if I did, I would probably only bugger it up worse. Lol. Better to leave it be and let the youngun's have a chuckle at another old fart online....



Hey hey hey...... I may not be the oldest member on here but I'm definitely an old fart with grandkids and one great grand kid but I'm not yielding any ground to those youngun's!!!!!

It's easy to do. Grow some and give it a whirl. Nothing to lose and at worst we will all get to have a good laugh WITH you!

The real challenge comes when someone else quotes something you said that you regret saying. That turns into a bit of a dogs breakfast. Ask me how I know! I had to do that with @YYCHM once. He was most accommodating. But in the end I was glad to be able to do it and even happier to know how.

Go ahead. Call me a stubborn old goat, post it, and then fix it!


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Tool set screws are M8-1.25.  Any idea what the height adjustment screw is?  Looks to be M10 with a fine thread?



I'll be out today doing toolpost things anyway. I have both types. I'll measure them and let you know. 

FWIW, my biggest bitch is the need for multiple Allen wrenches to tighten all the different lock screws. 

One of my to-do projects is gunna be a block of wood to hold and keep all of them handy. A place for all and all in their place!


----------



## Dabbler (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Are the aluminum holders worth finishing



Why not"  they are a lot stronger than you think.  for taking light cuts, with HSS tolls they will be just fine.


----------



## Dan Dubeau (Jan 31, 2022)

There are a lot of tools that would be perfectly suited to live in an aluminum holder.

Indicator, 
Bump bearing tool for aligning stock
Chamfer tool
etc

I don't think I'd want my daily driver turning tools in one, but for occasional uses, and one where repeatability over time isn't a big problem they'd be perfectly fine.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Tool set screws are M8-1.25.  Any idea what the height adjustment screw is?  Looks to be M10 with a fine thread?


My height adjustment screws are ALL 10mm - 1.0.

My set screws are a mixture of about 75% M8-1.25 and 25% M10-1.5.  

That's no biggie in my mind. But I prolly have 5 different size Allen wrenches to fit them all..... I HATE THAT!


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> My height adjustment screws are ALL 10mm - 1.0.
> 
> My set screws are a mixture of about 75% M8-1.25 and 25% M10-1.5.
> 
> That's no biggie in my mind. But I prolly have 5 different size Allen wrenches to fit them all..... I HATE THAT!



M10-1.0 ..... That fine eh?  Thanks for checking.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jan 31, 2022)

I bet mine are imperial - no metric stuff. It does not matter really. As for AL I agree with dabbler that you can use them for cutting as well - they simply will wear out faster and become more loose. As long as you don't hog with a tool in one they should work fine. But do report back, I am curious to find out. Mild steel, unhardened ones I have work great.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> My height adjustment screws are ALL 10mm - 1.0.
> 
> My set screws are a mixture of about 75% M8-1.25 and 25% M10-1.5.
> 
> That's no biggie in my mind. But I prolly have 5 different size Allen wrenches to fit them all..... I HATE THAT!


Sounds like it is time to make a rotory broach....


----------



## 6.5 Fan (Jan 31, 2022)

I have a couple of Aloris holders i think 2 are CXA and a big DA 55 if anybody needs some measurements. Think they are bored for a 3mt taper maybe bigger for the DA. Haven't looked at them for a while, got them in an auction buy 25 years ago and never used them.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> M10-1.0 ..... That fine eh?  Thanks for checking.



The fine thread actually makes sense. The thread is used to adjust height after all. It isn't used to handle a load. Fine is good. Finer is better.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Jan 31, 2022)

I can get some CA stuff for mine - I can even trade Aloris for Chinese as Aloris ones don't fit on Chinese tool post.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Where the heck can I get M8-1.25 Dog Point set screws and M10-1.0 Flat Point set screws from the same supplier, Canadian preferred?  Also need a M10-1.0 tap.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Where the heck can I get M8-1.25 Dog Point set screws and M10-1.0 Flat Point set screws from the same supplier, Canadian preferred?  Also need a M10-1.0 tap.



Fastenal. Just need an account and a business. Doesn't need to be much of a business. 

If you can't manage that, and nobody out there can help you, tell me what you want, make me whole, and pay the shopping and I'll get them to you. 

There is also a nut and bolt place in Vancouver.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> Sounds like it is time to make a rotory broach....



OK, I've thought on this about as much as I am willing. I give up. Call me stupid. What do you mean?


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> OK, I've thought on this about as much as I am willing. I give up. Call me stupid. What do you mean?



You can make your own hex head screws and standardize.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> You can make your own hex head screws and standardize.



Yes, this...... One day I will be more comfortable embedding videos on here, but This Old Tony does a pretty good presentation of how one works, and there's several videos of them being made, Hemingway kits makes a popular one. 
I have no need for one, but damn, I want one so bad.... Lol


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> OK, I've thought on this about as much as I am willing. I give up. Call me stupid. What do you mean?


Nope, never once considered you stupid.... Besides, I have been led to believe that you might be bigger than me....


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> Yes, this...... One day I will be more comfortable embedding videos on here, but This Old Tony does a pretty good presentation of how one works, and there's several videos of them being made, Hemingway kits makes a popular one.
> I have no need for one, but damn, I want one so bad.... Lol


@RobinHood made one.  https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/rotary-broach.774/


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Fastenal. Just need an account and a business. Doesn't need to be much of a business.



They don't have a M10-1.0 that's 45 mm long


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> They don't have a M10-1.0 that's 45 mm long


I see. I'll see what I can find. I assume you would be willing to cut some that are too long.


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> They don't have a M10-1.0 that's 45 mm long


This is where I strayed some from what I was trying to duplicate. I used 3/8 24 all thread that I snugged in with double nuts. And the set screws I used were 5/16 18 that I turned the ends down on to allow for some distortion should I need to remove them....


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)




----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

You will notice that in the pictures I spent most of the day cleaning up , which resulted in a space on my desk big enough to accommodate the subject material....


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> You can make your own hex head screws and standardize.



Ahhhh, I see. Embarrassed to admit I didn't catch that. 

In any event, I'm not making or buying a tool to make my own hex heads. If it bothers me enough, I'll buy a box of screws and throw the originals into a screw box to be used for projects where a common wrench isn't desirable. 

The bottom line is that too many of the screws in many of my holders are pretty much junk so replacing them is prolly not a bad idea anyway.


----------



## DPittman (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Where the heck can I get M8-1.25 Dog Point set screws and M10-1.0 Flat Point set screws from the same supplier, Canadian preferred?  Also need a M10-1.0 tap.


I've got a few extra like I show in the picture I could send you if you can't find an easy source.  I don't believe they are "dog point" but they are what I use in my holders and seem to work fine.


----------



## DPittman (Jan 31, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I've got a few extra like I show in the picture I could send you if you can't find an easy source.  I don't believe they are "dog point" but they are what I use in my holders and seem to work fine.


Oops I forgot the picture


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Oops I forgot the picture View attachment 20552


That is what mine looked like before I turned the ends down. I pushed one into the back portion of the er40 collet and machined the front one. This way I was using the full length of the collet, which er's need, plus I had a highly inaccurate collet stop.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> You will notice that in the pictures I spent most of the day cleaning up , which resulted in a space on my desk big enough to accommodate the subject material....



I'm not doing that. The colour of my work surfaces is downright embarrassing. I'd rather keep hiding the surface with piles of anything I can find to put there....... That's my story and I'm sticking to it.....


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> This way I was using the full length of the collet, which er's need



Huh? They do? 

I did NOT know that! Is that true of all ER collets or just the 40s?

Damn. Just when I think the ER32 is the solution to my collet range problem, somebody throws a live monkey into the pot.....


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> There is also a nut and bolt place in Vancouver.



If your talking BC Fasteners, they were a bust, nothing metric.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> If your talking BC Fasteners, they were a bust, nothing metric.



I couldn't remember the name. I'd have to go through my recent invoices to find it.

There is also a place in California that I have used for rare fasteners. I'll see if I can find that too.

If all else fails, you can make them.


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

Er collects need at least close to full engagement to be accurate,  but there are ways to cheat if you must


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Huh? They do?
> 
> I did NOT know that! Is that true of all ER collets or just the 40s?
> 
> Damn. Just when I think the ER32 is the solution to my collet range problem, somebody throws a live monkey into the pot.....


As far as I know it's all er collets, most of the time, my materials pass right through the collet, when they don't I just stuff the rear....


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Er collects need at least close to full engagement to be accurate,  but there are ways to cheat if you must



I discovered this recently mounting a edge/center finder in an ER20 collet


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

I'll prolly regret asking this,...... but,...... 

Is there such a thing as a darn near perfect collet?


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

I don't think so, but er's seem to be a pretty good compromise and are reasonably cost effective...


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> f all else fails, you can make them.



My lathe doesn't turn metric threads.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> I don't think so, but er's seem to be a pretty good compromise and are reasonably cost effective...



Jezz, maybe I should slow down and evaluate this problem a bit then......


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> My lathe doesn't turn metric threads.



Ouch........


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> My lathe doesn't turn metric threads.



Is it possible to make a few gears to provide metric threading capability? 

I didn't say practical, I just want to start with possible and go from there. 

I'm planning to turn a metric part tomorrow afternoon. I'll have a closer look at my lathe to see what that might take.


----------



## RobinHood (Jan 31, 2022)

Look for M10x1.0 threaded rod (might be difficult to find).

Alternative:

3/8” - 24 UNF threaded rod should be readily available.

In either case you cut them to length.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Look for M10x1.0 threaded rod (might be difficult to find).
> 
> Alternative:
> 
> ...



Ya, this has crossed my mind.  5/16 for the tool screws and 3/8 fine for the adjustment screw.


----------



## PeterT (Jan 31, 2022)

Set screws are easy to source on Ebay & Ali in dog or cup point. Just not a super quick ship item. Sometimes (not always) those set assortments can be good value depending on the size range vs needs. I've bought sets of progressive precision dowel pins & roll pins & screws & O-rings... sometimes for the same price as the fricken compartment box of air at the local store.

I'm actually not sure what the advantage of dog point is myself, maybe someone can illuminate. Was it somehow related to HSS blanks? I'm not concerned about marring my toolholder, not that I see much evidence of that anyways except on the cheapos.





__





						m8 dog point set screw for sale | eBay
					

Find great deals on eBay for m8 dog point set screw. Shop with confidence.



					www.ebay.ca


----------



## PeterT (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, this has crossed my mind.  5/16 for the tool screws and 3/8 fine for the adjustment screw.


Then of course you need to make that thin height adjuster nut... with the fine knurl.... and the fine pitch hex nuts....and don't forget the wave washer.... LOL


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Set screws are easy to source on Ebay & Ali in dog or cup point. Just not a super quick ship item.



Ya, 2 month delivery is what I'm seeing  The M10-1.0 is the hard one to find.


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## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Then of course you need to make that thin height adjuster nut... with the fine knurl.... and the fine pitch hex nuts....and don't forget the wave washer.... LOL






I gave up on the wavey washer, but really should try and source some. Kinda sucks putting pliers on the knurls to loosen for hight changes.


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

140mower said:


> View attachment 20557
> I gave up on the wavey washer, but really should try and source some. Kinda sucks putting pliers on the knurls to loosen for hight changes.



What does the wavey washer accomplish?


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What does the wavey washer accomplish?


It keeps the two nuts from sticking together, whether that is the real purpose or not, but that's about all I have noticed different between mine and China's toolholders....


----------



## 140mower (Jan 31, 2022)

.....a flat washer would likely work as well....


----------



## thestelster (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Is it possible to make a few gears to provide metric threading capability?
> 
> I didn't say practical, I just want to start with possible and go from there.
> 
> I'm planning to turn a metric part tomorrow afternoon. I'll have a closer look at my lathe to see what that might take.


Yes, its very possible.  Just very time consuming.  I made these for my Standard Modern.  I did not cut the teeth though.  I made everything else and took them to a company that cut the teeth, (which of course I don't remember now since it was 20 years ago.)


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I'm actually not sure what the advantage of dog point is myself, maybe someone can illuminate.



Didn't see a response. The smaller OD of the dog point on the screw reduces the tendency of the screw to push the part aside as you tighten down the screw. That's also why I tighten the screws in sequence just a little at a time. I don't want a gap to develop in there. Ideally, you would want an actual point on the screw and a matching recess on the tool, but that creates a different bigger set of problems to deal with.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Yes, its very possible.  Just very time consuming.  I made these for my Standard Modern.  I did not cut the teeth though.  I made everything else and took them to a company that cut the teeth, (which of course I don't remember now since it was 20 years ago.)



Those look a lot bigger than needed. I'm assuming you went a lot higher than 100/127 to do this. But ya, that's the idea. 

I'll be in the shop cutting that metric thread later today. I'm planning to take a closer look at how my lathe gears are setup to be able to provide some food for thought on the matter.


----------



## thestelster (Feb 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Those look a lot bigger than needed. I'm assuming you went a lot higher than 100/127 to do this. But ya, that's the idea.
> 
> I'll be in the shop cutting that metric thread later today. I'm planning to take a closer look at how my lathe gears are setup to be able to provide some food for thought on the matter.


They're actually 127 and 120.  When I made them, I thought I should use the same size/type teeth as the rest.  In retrospect, I could have made them smaller, but then I would need a larger idler gear(s) to connect the two.  I was going to make the 125 and 140 gear as well, but the 120 gave me all the metric thread pitches I required.


----------



## trlvn (Feb 1, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> My lathe doesn't turn metric threads.


Sometimes it is possible to turn threads that are 'close enough'.  My ancient Atlas 618 is capable of producing threads that closely approximate standard metric sizes using only the original change gears.  See page 4 of the attached.  

A typical nut only engages maybe 5 to 10 threads.  Even if the thread is a little off, it won't be enough to prevent the nut from turning.  OTOH, if you must have a LOT of threads engaged, the approximate threads won't work.  

FWIW,

Craig


----------



## RobinHood (Feb 1, 2022)

thestelster said:


> They're actually 127 and 120.  When I made them, I thought I should use the same size/type teeth as the rest.  In retrospect, I could have made them smaller, but then I would need a larger idler gear(s) to connect the two.  I was going to make the 125 and 140 gear as well, but the 120 gave me all the metric thread pitches I required.


Very nicely done Sir!

Your method has the advantage that you only need 3 gears (2, if you can use an existing idler).

SM solved the large gear problem by changing the DP of the off-units gears to 24 (IIRC) and compounding them. It allowed for the cover to close and the thru hole in the spindle to be used (this is essential when using a collet closer). You do need at least one mating gear of the same DP with the 127T transposing gear - these can get (and do get) lost over the life of the lathe.

So that is a drawback of their method. I doubt that anyone would lose the gears you made… they are just too nice.


----------



## thestelster (Feb 1, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Very nicely done Sir!
> 
> Your method has the advantage that you only need 3 gears (2, if you can use an existing idler).
> 
> ...


Thank you Robin.  I had my dad cut the holes on the milling machine with hole saws.  Literally hours of mindless work, but he was eager to help.  Pulling down on the quill, applying cutting oil, blowing out the chips with air.  After each hole, I would rotate the gear to the proper location and he would start again.  I couldn't use the existing idlers, so I made up that one in the photo attached to a steel plate which was able to pivot so that the two big gears could mesh.  The gears turned out so well visually, I photographed them, and the photo is up on the wall.  An abstract!


----------



## RobinHood (Feb 1, 2022)

Wow, beautiful piece of art.


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## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Sometimes it is possible to turn threads that are 'close enough'. My ancient Atlas 618 is capable of producing threads that closely approximate standard metric sizes using only the original change gears. See page 4 of the attached.



This matter was the subject of a huge debate and eventually a formal study at the company before I retired. We actually paid to have a global expert flown in from England to help assess the research.

The answer we got was "it depends". LOL!

Yes, the length of thread engagement was an important factor, but so was the load, the material, lubricant, and the application. The trickiest part of the fastener debate lies in the way that the male and female threads intentionally stretch, compress, and deform under load. To be properly torqued they MUST BE deformed. Proper deformation is inherent in the design and the intent of a threaded connection.  Normally a fastener does not stretch evenly. Rather, the load is taken up elasticly from the first to the last threads according to the distortion caused by the load with the highest load at the closest thread and the lowest at the furthest. 

The problem with a close mix of metric and imperial threads is that this design load distribution is disrupted by the slight difference between the thread pitch for the two types.

Thus mixed threads - even those very close to being the same - cannot carry the same loads as matched threads can.

In this particular case, none of this matters because the height adjustment stud on a tool holder carries virtually no load.

But still, I thought it worth sharing the knowledge.


----------



## DPittman (Feb 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Thus mixed threads - even those very close to being the same - cannot carry the same loads as matched threads can.


Hmmn I could of told your company that for alot less than what it cost to fly in a global expert.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Hmmn I could of told your company that for alot less than what it cost to fly in a global expert.



Ya, you could have. And so did our own studies. But when millions are on the line a second opinion from a global expert was appropriate. 

And much as this might suck to say and hear, we all need to understand that trust is earned, not given. 

Lots of advice I could give to the world that would be spot on. Nobody would listen. It was ever thus.


----------



## Brent H (Feb 2, 2022)

@Susquatch : you could have just retired, returned as a consultant with your own insurance and company trust would have been there for you - LOL

@thestelster : those are some pretty gears!!! Lathe is sporting some bling for sure!


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

Brent H said:


> you could have just retired, returned as a consultant with your own insurance and company trust would have been there for you - LOL



A lot of guys did just that. But the corporation I worked for had a policy against it. Too many guys setup their own retirement consulting golden parachutes. So when I retired I had to sign an an agreement to never come back plus a non compete for 5 years. 

No issues w me. I did a fair bit of consulting that met the terms of my retirement before deciding to take up farming full time instead. I'm much happier watching corn grow, spinning the wheel of a tractor or a lathe or a mill. Besides, I hated travel and I never did like writing reports. 

Ya, I love those gears. And the wall photo of them too!


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

140mower said:


> It keeps the two nuts from sticking together, whether that is the real purpose or not, but that's about all I have noticed different between mine and China's toolholders....



@140mower & @YYCHM 
I think there might be a wee bit more to it than that. I think it could also provide some adjustability. The whole purpose of the knurled nut is to be able to adjust the tool height. If you have to "firmly lock" the two nuts together, it gets hard to make fine tune adjustments. But if the two nuts are held apart by a wavy washer that is only tightened by hand, it's easy to fine tune the adjustment in a way that can be adjusted but does not move afterward. The whole thing is only a locator that takes no load. 

I'm not at all sure of that though. It's just a speculative opinion.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Question - Are the aluminum holders worth finishing or will they just give me grief down the road?



Did you try this? Did it work?



PeterT said:


> Maybe for light duty but why bother unless its just prototyping for the real ones. Guessing 6061 aluminum but anyways certainly won't be as strong as steel for this application. Not just the dovetail but the toolholder slot set screws.



So, I want to make a custom tool holder to hold a spindle motor in my tool post. The motor came with an alumnium clamp holder.






My first thought was to machine one side of it flat and drill and tap a steel tool holder to hold the Aluminium holder. But it seems like there are lots of reasons why that wouldn't work as well as it seems it should.

So I'm rethinking this now. Reading this thread has me thinking it would be better to make a new sleeve that incorporates its own tool holder dovetail to attach directly to the tool post dovetail.

Hence my questions about how well your aluminum tool holder worked out.

I'll also need to find a big ars chunk of aluminum that is hiding my holder inside it. 

I need to be able to cut good dovetails too.....


----------



## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Did you try this? Did it work?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not use a ready made holder and mount a bar to your motor sleeve that would fit into the tool holder?


----------



## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hence my questions about how well your aluminum tool holder worked out.
> 
> I'll also need to find a big ars chunk of aluminum that is hiding my holder inside it.
> 
> I need to be able to cut good dovetails too.....



I don't know how well the aluminum holders work yet, I'm waiting on set screws to finish them.  I'm going to finish the un-shimmed aluminum and steel holder and sit on the other two aluminum holders incase I get inspired to make some sort of instrumentation holder out of them.

I've been looking at this https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01C8NFZJC/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A1CYSEWV5K86KD&psc=1 recently.  The shaper while fun is just a little too time consuming and difficult to setup.

What do all the sides of that spindle motor clamp look like?


----------



## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I get inspired to make some sort of instrumentation holder out of them.


Yes I think one would make a great dial indicator holder for the tool post.  If you haven't already seen it, Tubalcain has a video where he made just that.


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## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Why not use a ready made holder and mount a bar to your motor sleeve that would fit into the tool holder?



Exactly what I was thinking as well.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Yes I think one would make a great dial indicator holder for the tool post.  If you haven't already seen it, Tubalcain has a video where he made just that.



I did that myself with a regular steel tool holder. I didn't see it anyplace else, it just seemed infinitely better than mounting it into my tailstock.... 

It works great for dialing in a bore. 

When I go out to the shop I'll take a photo of that as well as the spindle motor bracket.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Why not use a ready made holder and mount a bar to your motor sleeve that would fit into the tool holder?



Yes, I looked at lots of variations. The direct screw on seemed obvious but it isn't without problems. A bar would seem to lose a lot of rigidity but maybe that doesn't matter with a small tool post grinder.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

@DPittman @YYCHM 

Here is photo of my indicator holder. It's really nothing fancy. The bar in my tool holder came with a Starrett Indicator. The indicator itself is a Mitutoyo 0.0001 with a double length tip in it to reach deeper into a bore. The double length reduces the indicator resolution by a factor of two to 0.0002. But you can read between the lines to finer res if you want. 






And here are some photos of the spindle motor bracket. It has a bore of 2.25" and it is 3.75 inches long by 1.75 wide by 2 8 inches high.


----------



## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Did you try this? Did it work?
> 
> So, I want to make a custom tool holder to hold a spindle motor in my tool post. The motor came with an alumnium clamp holder.
> 
> ...



I would try "drill and tap a steel bar to mount the aluminum spindle clamp to a regular steel AX? holder" first.

If that doesn't suffice embellish one by "adding 4 screws to attach the aluminum spindle clamp to the regular steel AX? holder" second

If that doesn't suffice then "make a new aluminum spindle clamp with integrated dove tail" third.

The aluminum dove tails I made lock up solid on my wedge type tool post.


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## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I would try "drill and tap a steel bar to mount the aluminum spindle clamp to a regular steel AX? holder" first.
> 
> If that doesn't suffice embellish one by "adding 4 screws to attach the aluminum spindle clamp to the regular steel AX? holder" second
> 
> ...



Hmmmm...... That makes two votes for the steel bar...... 

Maybe I don't understand what you guys mean. Can you make a simple pencil sketch?


----------



## Tom Kitta (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Did you try this? Did it work?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am waiting for the same thing. Idea is to remove the AXA tool post, put a brand new (already made) T in there, machine on side of aluminium holder to be no more than maybe 5mm thick, machine bottom flat & to the proper height, attach to the T and Use bolts through the enclosure to lock the T to the cross slide.

So operation would be, place T connected enclosure, lock the T in the cross slide, put in the motor, lock the motor and finally start grinding. 

The reason to machine one side to 5mm thick is to use smaller grinding wheels. Motor already is 53mm. With 5mm extra enclosure thickness we have a 63mm wheel just barely touching the work  while rubbing enclosure. So you need at least 3" grinding wheel == 75. But 75mm needs to be dressed, it needs to do some work, this leaves not much before it becomes a bit smaller - we have only 12mm before its useless. I am also looking at 4". 5" is probably too big as I would need to move the T to far to the front in order not to rub.


----------



## DPittman (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hmmmm...... That makes two votes for the steel bar......
> 
> Maybe I don't understand what you guys mean. Can you make a simple pencil sketch?


----------



## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> I am waiting for the same thing. Idea is to remove the AXA tool post, put a brand new (already made) T in there, machine on side of aluminium holder to be no more than maybe 5mm thick, machine bottom flat & to the proper height, attach to the T and Use bolts through the enclosure to lock the T to the cross slide.
> 
> So operation would be, place T connected enclosure, lock the T in the cross slide, put in the motor, lock the motor and finally start grinding.
> 
> The reason to machine one side to 5mm thick is to use smaller grinding wheels. Motor already is 53mm. With 5mm extra enclosure thickness we have a 63mm wheel just barely touching the work  while rubbing enclosure. So you need at least 3" grinding wheel == 75. But 75mm needs to be dressed, it needs to do some work, this leaves not much before it becomes a bit smaller - we have only 12mm before its useless. I am also looking at 4". 5" is probably too big as I would need to move the T to far to the front in order not to rub.



I think we need a dwg Tom..... You lost me


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> I am waiting for the same thing. Idea is to remove the AXA tool post, put a brand new (already made) T in there, machine on side of aluminium holder to be no more than maybe 5mm thick, machine bottom flat & to the proper height, attach to the T and Use bolts through the enclosure to lock the T to the cross slide.
> 
> So operation would be, place T connected enclosure, lock the T in the cross slide, put in the motor, lock the motor and finally start grinding.
> 
> The reason to machine one side to 5mm thick is to use smaller grinding wheels. Motor already is 53mm. With 5mm extra enclosure thickness we have a 63mm wheel just barely touching the work  while rubbing enclosure. So you need at least 3" grinding wheel == 75. But 75mm needs to be dressed, it needs to do some work, this leaves not much before it becomes a bit smaller - we have only 12mm before its useless. I am also looking at 4". 5" is probably too big as I would need to move the T to far to the front in order not to rub.



Sorry Tom, call me stupid. I've read your note three times now and still can't figure out what you mean.


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

DPittman said:


> View attachment 20616



Ah! I see now! For some silly arse reason I was picturing a boring bar with this spindle motor dangling off of it! 

Too funny! 

Yes, I think I could do that. I will look at it tomorrow after I dig us out of the snow......


----------



## Tom Kitta (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Sorry Tom, call me stupid. I've read your note three times now and still can't figure out what you mean.



Well maybe it arrived today in Post - if it did I make a picture and just draw the cuts.


----------



## PeterT (Feb 2, 2022)

I'm curious about your indicator setup. What kind of applications do you find this useful for? I mean I get that that stylus can swivel/rotate up & down a bit, but it has a certain range before you need to jack the toolholder. And then the toolholder runs out of range. Isn't a DTI on a mag base arm a whole lot faster to set in position?


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 2, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I'm curious about your indicator setup. What kind of applications do you find this useful for? I mean I get that that stylus can swivel/rotate up & down a bit, but it has a certain range before you need to jack the toolholder. And then the toolholder runs out of range. Isn't a DTI on a mag base arm a whole lot faster to set in position?



It is used to align the axis of a bore with the axis of the spindle. It could also be used to simply center a bore. The idea is to reach into the bore and measure the runout at several different depths.


----------



## YYCHM (Feb 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> It is used to align the axis of a bore with the axis of the spindle. It could also be used to simply center a bore. The idea is to reach into the bore and measure the runout at several different depths.



And that went way over my head


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 3, 2022)

Imagine making a sleeve with an eccentric bore that is also on a slight angle to the outside. A rod inserted into the sleeve transcribes a bigger circle than the outside of the sleeve itself.

Now imagine that the hole needs to be bored out a bit and reamed for a perfect fit. To do that, the outside must be mounted in a fixture and the bore needs to be centered and aligned axially such that the axis of the bore of the sleeve is aligned with the axis of the spindle.

This is done by inserting an indicator into the hole and centering the hole at several depths using a fixture instead of chuck jaws to hold the outside of the sleeve. Then the hole can be bored and reamed or threaded or whatever.


----------



## Tom Kitta (Feb 18, 2022)

2 updates -

1. The cheap AXA tool holders were a joke - they never made it to Canada and seller refunded me with reason "returned by customer". Well, I never got them so could not return. Obvious scam - i.e. they are hoping people forget after 2 months and they get $$$. Hence why such long shipping and hence why no reviews etc. They probably recycle listings as well. Not sure why amazon goes for this BS. 

2. the TPG with large ER20 and actual stone at the end does not seem to work too well - the spindle of just 8mm is too flimsy and not very rigid. I guess this is good only for tiny stuff that fit into ER11 & are well balanced. I.e. small stones that are light, no stick out etc. When you look at real TPGs you notice that the spindles are very beefy - they are not small at all - internal spindles are usually tapered as well - thick close to the motor getting thinner towards stone. Oh well, I guess I have now a little TPG that is good for some internal work and not really any outside work - well maybe with tiny stone. I play around with it some more but I do not have high hopes.


----------



## YYCHM (Feb 18, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> 1. The cheap AXA tool holders were a joke - they never made it to Canada and seller refunded me with reason "returned by customer". Well, I never got them so could not return. Obvious scam - i.e. they are hoping people forget after 2 months and they get $$$. Hence why such long shipping and hence why no reviews etc. They probably recycle listings as well. Not sure why amazon goes for this BS.



Mine haven't arrived yet either,  China post.... Feb 21-Mar17


----------



## YYCHM (Mar 17, 2022)

Today I decided to try this dove tail cutter I ordered from Amazon.....






The cutter is 30mm dia., so lots of cutting fluid and 30 hz on the VFD.  It stalled the mill a few times the deeper I progressed.  You have to reduce the doc the deeper the cut  I used two 1/4" drill bit shanks to compare the dove tail width with a factory holder, that worked great.






Dropped right in and locked up tight the first try.


----------



## 140mower (Mar 17, 2022)

Well done, but, don't give up on the shaper, there's no better way to increase your shop time.


----------



## Susquatch (Mar 17, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Dropped right in and locked up tight the first try.



What was the sequence for this job Craig? 

The top of the v-way looks like maybe you did a groove to depth first with a regular endmill and then widened the grrove with the 60 degree dovetail till it fit the drill width. 

I have to cut one for my spindle motor holder shortly. So I'm interested in how you did this.  Having no shaper, means I have to do it your way.


----------



## YYCHM (Mar 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> What was the sequence for this job Craig?
> 
> The top of the v-way looks like maybe you did a groove to depth first with a regular endmill and then widened the grrove with the 60 degree dovetail till it fit the drill width.
> 
> I have to cut one for my spindle motor holder shortly. So I'm interested in how you did this.  Having no shaper, means I have to do it your way.



You've got it.  I measured the width of the narrow portion and depth of the dove tail on a factory holder and machined a slot to match.  Then I measured the width of the wide portion of the dove tail on a factory holder to use as a first approximation for how deep I would have to cut each side of the slot.  3/4 of the way thorough to the approximation target I switched to comparing the width measured between 1/4" drill shanks to that of a factory holder.  Worked like a charm.

If that doesn't make sense PM me.


----------



## Susquatch (Mar 18, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> You've got it.  I measured the width of the narrow portion and depth of the dove tail on a factory holder and machined a slot to match.  Then I measured the width of the wide portion of the dove tail on a factory holder to use as a first approximation for how deep I would have to cut each side of the slot.  3/4 of the way thorough to the approximation target I switched to comparing the width measured between 1/4" drill shanks to that of a factory holder.  Worked like a charm.
> 
> If that doesn't make sense PM me.



Makes perfect sense Craig. 

Nice job! 

Thank you!


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Hey @YYCHM, I'm just putting the final touches on my tool post grinder. Almost done. Just need to add the adjuster stud system. What did you end up doing for the adjustment screw on your tool holders? 

I just measured mine at M10.0-1.0. Actually they are a little under 10 at 9. 7mm. But that's prolly just clearance. 

The problem is that this thread doesn't even show up in my tap charts. I have no idea where I can buy that size tap. Same goes for the stud, the adjustment collar and the spring washer. Where the heck do I get those? I don't think those toll post yahoos want us making our own....


----------



## 140mower (Apr 20, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hey @YYCHM, I'm just putting the final touches on my tool post grinder. Almost done. Just need to add the adjuster stud system. What did you end up doing for the adjustment screw on your tool holders?
> 
> I just measured mine at M10.0-1.0. Actually they are a little under 10 at 9. 7mm. But that's prolly just clearance.
> 
> The problem is that this thread doesn't even show up in my tap charts. I have no idea where I can buy that size tap. Same goes for the stud, the adjustment collar and the spring washer. Where the heck do I get those? I don't think those toll post yahoos want us making our own....


I used 5/16" fine thread and made my own nuts. Be damned if I will conform....


----------



## YYCHM (Apr 20, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hey @YYCHM, I'm just putting the final touches on my tool post grinder. Almost done. Just need to add the adjuster stud system. What did you end up doing for the adjustment screw on your tool holders?
> 
> I just measured mine at M10.0-1.0. Actually they are a little under 10 at 9. 7mm. But that's prolly just clearance.
> 
> The problem is that this thread doesn't even show up in my tap charts. I have no idea where I can buy that size tap. Same goes for the stud, the adjustment collar and the spring washer. Where the heck do I get those? I don't think those toll post yahoos want us making our own....



3/8-24.  I don't have anything metric around here apart from some metric endmills, so I ordered setscrews, nuts and a bottom tap from KBC.  The round knurled adjustment nut I made on the lathe.  As for the spring washers I haven't a clue but I'm not convinced they are totally necessary.


----------



## PeterT (Apr 20, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I just measured mine at M10.0-1.0. Actually they are a little under 10 at 9. 7mm. But that's prolly just clearance.
> The problem is that this thread doesn't even show up in my tap charts. I have no idea where I can buy that size tap. Same goes for the stud, the adjustment collar and the spring washer. Where the heck do I get those? I don't think those toll post yahoos want us making our own....


I had to get some oddball taps for my engine for a 1-time job. Oddball to N-Am but very common in Asia. I wasn't expecting much but they were OK quality & did the job. Example from AliExpress. It can be a bit of crap shoot. Some are yeesh & some are excellent. Try & stick with machine supply places.


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Thanks @PeterT .  I will order a tap and die for "next time" because that will take too long for "this time" (says the guy who takes months and months and months to do a small little project.) 

Switching to Imperial sounds like a workable "this time" plan to me @YYCHM. But mine are BXA so @140mower s are too small and yours are borderline. Therefore, I'll prolly go with 7/16 fine.

Thanks everyone.


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## Dabbler (Apr 20, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'll prolly go with 7/16 fine.


great choice .050 per revolution.


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> great choice .050 per revolution.



I didn't even realize that! Very true. One could even etch up the wheel for that. Very cool! Makes me want to figure out how to change all my holders..... LOL!


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## 140mower (Apr 20, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> 3/8-24.  I don't have anything metric around here apart from some metric endmills, so I ordered setscrews, nuts and a bottom tap from KBC.  The round knurled adjustment nut I made on the lathe.  As for the spring washers I haven't a clue but I'm not convinced they are totally necessary.


Yup, that is what I used as well, had a geriatric moment and the cheese slid off the cracker. I do know that I didn't have a bottoming tap, but used to have 3 tapered ones, zip disc and a grinder solved that.


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

140mower said:


> Yup, that is what I used as well, had a geriatric moment and the cheese slid off the cracker. I do know that I didn't have a bottoming tap, but used to have 3 tapered ones, zip disc and a grinder solved that.



Ive done that too. 

It's also a bit of a dog bisquit to do that when you break a tap for those times when you can.


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