# Craftex CX709 motor issue?



## DHHok (Dec 12, 2021)

Some of you may know I purchased a cx709 that BusyBee had on clearance because it had a problem.
BB's explanation of the issue on this machine was that it couldn't get to top speed, but everything else worked.  The guy at BB stated that it actually would get to top speed, but it just took awhile.  
I purchased the lathe, figuring it was a motor problem, and because I have a spare motor I wasn't concerned.
So I just got around to cleaning the machine and testing it.  Turns out, it will not run on the 3 top speeds.  (850, 1100 & 1650).  On any of these settings, the speed fluctuates drastically for about 5 seconds then trips the breaker.  I can't attach videos of the issue, but they can be seen *here* & *here*.

I have my theory as to what the problem is, but don't have time right now to check it out, so I thought I'd see what others think the problem may be.  You may come up with something I didn't think of.
I have ruled out a mechanical problem because the lathe works fine at the 640rpm setting, but fails at the 850rpm setting.  These two settings use the same gearset and is only a belt change, so nothing mechanical really changes.  What I think happens is that as the speed setting increases, the torque requirement for the motor becomes greater and it just can't handle the increased torque load at the top 3 settings.  
I have already checked the start & run capacitors and they seem ok.  Granted, I only checked with an ohmmeter, but they did pass that test, and look perfectly fine.
What I don't have time to check right now (and what I _think_ the problem is), is the centrifugal switch.  I'm thinking it may be opening too quickly and dropping out the start capacitor before the motor has enough momentum/torque to be able to run on the Run capacitor.

That's where I'm headed next, but I am open to all opinions.


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## Darren (Dec 12, 2021)

DHHok said:


> Some of you may know I purchased a cx709 that BusyBee had on clearance because it had a problem.
> BB's explanation of the issue on this machine was that it couldn't get to top speed, but everything else worked.  The guy at BB stated that it actually would get to top speed, but it just took awhile.
> I purchased the lathe, figuring it was a motor problem, and because I have a spare motor I wasn't concerned.
> So I just got around to cleaning the machine and testing it.  Turns out, it will not run on the 3 top speeds.  (850, 1100 & 1650).  On any of these settings, the speed fluctuates drastically for about 5 seconds then trips the breaker.  I can't attach videos of the issue, but they can be seen *here* & *here*.
> ...


You could take the motor to a local motor shop. The centrifugal switch can be changed or adjusted. I think you're on the right track though.


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## gerritv (Dec 12, 2021)

We will assume that you verified the machine is wired per the diagram in the manual?


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## trlvn (Dec 12, 2021)

Quite a trick getting 1.5 horsepower out of 11A at 110V but that's neither here nor there.

I pulled the wiring diagram out of the online manual:





Could you confirm that yours has the forward-reverse switch?  I believe there are different styles of forward-reverse (aka drum) switches that have different patterns of connections.  Conceivably, they put the wrong style of switch on a small number of machines?

Your theory about the centrifugal switch dropping out too soon sounds plausible to me.  I'd also verify that the start and run windings are actually connected correctly.

I'd be very careful about the number of times I'd test the problem lest the magic smoke gets loose!

Craig


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## DHHok (Dec 12, 2021)

I appreciate the response guys.

The machine is not wired as per the wiring diagram, but I haven't assumed that it means the motor is wired incorrectly.  The motor does run properly at 9 of the 12 speed settings.
So far, I have traced out all the wires as best I could and jotted down where each one goes.  I still have to pull the Transfer Switch in order to see it better and then I will draw out a proper schematic so I can better understand if the motor is wired correctly.
I don't want to assume the Chinese wiring diagram is correct and wire it up as shown.  Based on the rest of the manual, it's pretty obvious there wasn't much thought or attention put into it.

What I can tell so far, is it does have the same forward/reverse switch as shown and looks to be wired the same.
It does not have a 2 pole breaker as shown.  The breaker is a single pole and wired (incorrectly) into the Neutral side.  It should be on the Line side.
The Indicator Light is wired before the power switch, so as long as the machine is plug into power, it is always on.  That will need to change.

When I'm out tomorrow, I am going to stop by the BusyBee and look at the one they have.  I'll take some pictures of the wiring and compare to mine and the wiring diagram, then go from there.


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Unless they are being changed when speeds are changed, I doubt that the issue is capacitors or the centrifugal switch. These components are used to start and run the motor. Normally, they should not know what gear the lathe is in. Since they work in the lower gears, they should work in the higher gears.

But I confess that your videos sure do look like it's a problem like the centrifugal switch!

Normally, a centrifugal switch is used to disconnect the start capacitor or a start winding in a single phase motor once the motor gets running. It does not carry load at the higher rpm, only at the lower startup rpm. But your video makes it look like it's a transition issue between start and run rpm.

If the motor is the problem, I think it will be in the windings or in that switch arrangement that is in the schematic.

Can you put an ac ampmeter on the mains? Higher load will draw higher amps. So you can check amps to check load in the high gears and in the middle gears.

I think you should try to eliminate the possibility of mechanical problems further in order to avoid making them worse.

You can try removing the drive belt and turning the lathe by hand in the various gears. This can be done both ways - turning the input pulley by hand or with a wrench, and turning the spindle with a t-wrench.

You can also try spinning the motor without the belts on too. In fact, you can also run the motor without the drive belts if you want.

These latter two evaluations are to try and determine if you have a sticking gear or bushing or bearing or something.

Just a guess, but if the motor does that when the drive belts are removed, then the actual load is not a factor and you can zero in on motor/switch problems.

I'd ask how hot the motor gets when running for a while on any of the three middle speeds, but I'd be leary of running it for any length of time for fear of overheating an internal gear or shaft that is sticking in a bushing or bearing. Hence the need to check for these conditions first.

Does your backup motor have all those windings too?

To improve my own understanding, it would help to have a theory paragraph that explains how the circuitry and gears all work together. Fir example, you had said that the only difference between the top gears and lower gears is a belt change. Can you explain what is all supposed to change as you change speeds? Since it's a 12 Spd and all three top speeds are not working, I am surmising that the motor is a 4 speed and there are three belt/gear changes?


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

I looked up the motor as specified in the drawing.

*Be very cautious about doing your own search. Two of the websites I found contained malicious scripts (viruses). *

The motor is a 3 speed with three different sets of windings. So I'm guessing one of them is bad.

My guess is that the motor works on the start circuitry and then when the centrifugal switch kicks out the start capacitor or start windings and switches over to the highest speed set of windings, the bad winding fails and drops the speed enough to kick the start system back in and that's why the motor hunts like that.

Your video shows that motor torque goes down as the motor speed goes up. This again suggests a winding that isn't working as opposed to excessive load.


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## trlvn (Dec 13, 2021)

There ought to be a label with a wiring diagram on the motor.  Hopefully you can trust that.  You might want to pull the motor and bench test it so you can isolate from any mechanical problems.

BTW, I just saw @Susquatch 's posting.  I'm clearly not finding the same specs as he is.  Searching for "Yl-90L4 electric motor 1.1 KW" leads me to what appears to be typical single-speed, dual capacitor motors.  The only odd part is that they all seem to be 220 V; no option for 110V operation?

A WAG:  if it is a 220V motor running on 110V, maybe the highest speed settings put on enough load to cause it to oscillate between the start and run windings?

Also, could you confirm how the speeds are configured?  From the look of the controls, I'm guessing there are 2 gear levers giving you 6 gear-selected speeds.  Then with a belt change, it switches between a high and low range?  But that doesn't line up with what you said about only 3 of the 12 speeds causing a problem after a belt change.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

trlvn said:


> There ought to be a label with a wiring diagram on the motor.  Hopefully you can trust that.  You might want to pull the motor and bench test it so you can isolate from any mechanical problems.
> 
> BTW, I just saw @Susquatch 's posting.  I'm clearly not finding the same specs as he is.  Searching for "Yl-90L4 electric motor 1.1 KW" leads me to what appears to be typical single-speed, dual capacitor motors.  The only odd part is that they all seem to be 220 V; no option for 110V operation?
> 
> ...



Exactly why I would like to see a theory of operation or even just a description of the way all the speed changes are supposed to work. 

I confirm that my search finds 3 different switch controlled speed settings each selecting 2 or 4 or 6 poles. 

My search also says 115V.

But such confusion and conflicting info is the wonder of the internet!


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Just some more info in case it helps. The number of poles usually determines motor speed as follows:

2 poles = 3600rpm
4 poles = 1800rpm
6 poles = 1200rpm

The wiring diagram that @trlvn provided also suggests 3 different pole configurations.

Doesn't mean that's what you have, but that's what I found. 

As mentioned before. Be very careful searching in this info. My virus protection blocked malicious content on two websites.


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## trlvn (Dec 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Just some more info in case it helps
> 
> 2 poles = 3600rpm
> 4 poles = 1800rpm
> ...


Um, no?  I think it shows a typical forward-reverse scheme where two of the start capacitor leads are interchanged.  On the section for the switch, the columns are labelled "F O R" for Forward, Off and Reverse.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Um, no?  I think it shows a typical forward-reverse scheme where two of the start capacitor leads are interchanged.  On the section for the switch, the columns are labelled "F O R" for Forward, Off and Reverse.
> 
> Craig



Yes, I saw that. But then there are various settings for each. Typically, the caps and centrifugal switch are internal and not affected by switch settings. I thought that's why there are four wires going into the motor. It would help to see the wiring diagram that is usually on the motor and know how the speeds are supposed to be selected and configured. 

I gather that you think that the motor is a single speed motor and all the speeds are selected manually. I thought so too - hence my earlier concerns regarding a mechanical problem. But then I saw the poles in the motor specifications on line. 

I guess I shouldn't speculate so much and just wait to see what @DHHok finds. Right now, I feel like I'm just throwing info out there excessively.


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## historicalarms (Dec 13, 2021)

That lathe would be perfect for me...$hit can happen fast enough at 300 rpm....I never turn faster than that.


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> That lathe would be perfect for me...$hit can happen fast enough at 300 rpm....I never turn faster than that.


The minimum speed on my lathe is 70rpm. I'd like 30 or 40 and would be thrilled with 50.


I've run my 14x40 at the max speed of 1400 just to make sure it worked. But I very rarely use it to cut anything in any gear set but the lowest speed range which is 70, 220, & 360.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

As a former owner of the lathe I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the machine.

Drain all oil form the gearbox.

Fill it with ISO32 oil - fresh from Princess Auto.

Make sure room temperate is around 10C or above.

Start lathe in 700 rpm and run it for at least 15 min.

Then go up in speed for another 15min

Then top speed.

BTW, I had same identical issue.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

Also your lathe is rather "anemic" i.e. it is not at all "powerful" - when running at mid speed say 700 rpm or so and you chuck in at least 2" or 3" bar you can stop the lathe with your hand when squishing the part hard with emery cloth. 

I did the same on my chipmaster but no way I can stop it - I can hear motor working hard but it powers through, even with larger stuff like 6" face plate. On my big lathe it does not even break a sweat - I cannot even hear much change in motor pitch. 

Due to above anemic behavior do not expect to take heavy cuts in say 2" - 3" sized pieces especially at high speed around 700.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

Finally you can get some expensive ISO 32 oil that is "all season" or "winter grade" or "synthetic" etc. that stays more liquid in colder temperatures. If your workspace is not heated it will help a lot.

No issues in the summer!


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## DHHok (Dec 13, 2021)

Wow.  Lots of discussion.  This is good.
I haven't had time to dig into the problem and probably won't for a couple days, but to answer your questions:
The motor has 6 wires. W1/2, U1/2, V1/2. So 3 windings.
There are 6 different gear changes and a high/low belt change to get 12 speeds total.  It will not run at 1100 or 1650 (same gears, high & low belt setting).
It will run at 640, but not at 850.  This is the same gear set, with just a belt change.
It will run at every other speed.
This is why I do not think it is the actual motor, but the centrifugal switch dropping out too early.
How I view it is:
The centrifugal switch will drop out at the same rpm every time.  Doesn't matter what gear speed is selected.  However, the higher speeds will require more motor torque to get the spindle up to and maintain speed.  At the lower speeds the required torque is not as high and when the Start cap drops out, the motor can maintain enough momentum to continue to turn the spindle.  Somewhere between 640rpm & 850rpm is the threshold where it can not do this.  At 850rpm (spindle speed) and above the motor can not reach a high enough rpm where it is able to produce enough torque (on the Run cap alone) to keep running once the Start cap drops out.
That being said, I can see that it could be a bad winding.  My above "torque" reasoning/explanation could fit this situation also.

The quickest solution would be to install the 2hp motor I have laying around, but then I'd never know if the craftex motor is any good or not.

Tom, I know you feel it's the oil, but I have to respectfully disagree.  This problem was only on a small batch of units that got shipped out last summer.  This "batch" of units was identified by BusyBee as having a high speed issue and instead of determining the cause and fixing it, they sold them off (cheaper and without warranty) as CX709X's.  Any that came before, or after don't have the problem.  It appears I purchased the very last one, as the website no longer advertises these units.  Fyi, I have changed the oil with the recommended ISO68 (20w) and the lathe is in a heated garage where the lowest temp seen is 60F.

I appreciate all the suggestions.  I'll be able to check it out further in a couple days and see if I'm right or wrong on my theory.


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Wow. Talk about an interesting tale...... I cannot stop thinking about it! More importantly, I can't wait till it gets fixed. 

As the old saying goes, "This problem too will be simple when solved."


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## Tom O (Dec 13, 2021)

Is there a model number on the centrifugal switch that can be compared to previous models? With the COVID supply shortage could it have been swapped out for a different model?


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Is there a model number on the centrifugal switch that can be compared to previous models? With the COVID supply shortage could it have been swapped out for a different model?



All models have same issue - mine was from like 7 years ago. I heard of one 3 years ago and now current. Same exact issue.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

DHHok said:


> Wow.  Lots of discussion.  This is good.
> I haven't had time to dig into the problem and probably won't for a couple days, but to answer your questions:
> The motor has 6 wires. W1/2, U1/2, V1/2. So 3 windings.
> There are 6 different gear changes and a high/low belt change to get 12 speeds total.  It will not run at 1100 or 1650 (same gears, high & low belt setting).
> ...



Take the chuck off and run without it and see whatever it makes the difference. Finally do what I told you. 

Its not small batch. It was mine and few other people that told me about the same issue. In fact everyone of them has the same issue. Recommended oil for the speed is ISO 32, ignore the manual as you will continue having issues. 

In fact you can go to BB store and plug one of the lathes in IN STORE and I bet it will not start with chuck in at top speed. 

Note mine was like 7 years ago. With exactly same issue of not starting at high speed. 

Besides what is the problem of running it for say 15min at lower speed - even with heavy oil, and then switching to higher speed and noticing it magically works?


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

Besides the motor is not 1.5hp it is 1hp motor - they way they arrived at magical 1.5hp is same way they arrived at 7.5hp peak horse power for compressors. The motor is just 11amps at 110v. Which gives us 11 * 110 / 747 = 1.6 -- so 1.5hp motor )) 

The same lathe but in different color is 089 - see https://www.busybeetools.com/content/product_manuals/CT089.pdf 

Looks familiar no? Magically it only has 1hp motor... but same amps  

I guess new motor must be way more efficient  

If you have a motor in same frame size that is 2hp go for it - probably the best solution. 

If you google 13 x 24 lathe you find LOTS of copies of same machine all over the place - say https://www.toolots.com/bl330e-gear-head-bench-metal-lathe-with-stand.html or https://www.amazon.ca/BOLTON-Gear-Head-Spindle-Diameter-WARRANTY/dp/B009L9YXLS


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## DHHok (Dec 13, 2021)

It sounds as if I offended you Tom.  So I am sorry if I did.  That was not my intention.
I never said you were wrong.  I simply said I "respectfully" disagree. 
I don't mind someone having a different opinion than me, and I welcome everyone's idea on what the problem might be.
Your solution may very well end up being the right solution.  If it is, I won't hesitate to post it here....but I'm still going to check out what I think is wrong first.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

DHHok said:


> It sounds as if I offended you Tom.  So I am sorry if I did.  That was not my intention.
> I never said you were wrong.  I simply said I "respectfully" disagree.
> I don't mind someone having a different opinion than me, and I welcome everyone's idea on what the problem might be.
> Your solution may very well end up being the right solution.  If it is, I won't hesitate to post it here....but I'm still going to check out what I think is wrong first.



Oh not at all - I just had the same lathe with same issue at same RPM. When starting it would try hard for like few seconds then slow down a bit (as I remember) and then the breaker in the motor would go off. When it happened the very first time I was scared I broke the lathe! But then I figured it out that the tiny motor cannot work from cold up to such high speed. It still happened once in a while but I got it working. Others had similar issues, its common for this lathe. I cannot believe BB just discovered it ... after a decade (!!!) of selling these! 

There are other members here that own the same lathe - I am sure they have the same problem. Or maybe me and few other pp all had "flaky" motors?


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

I confess that I find it hard to believe that even a 1/4 hp motor might not have enough oomph to run a lathe at top speed with no load other than system friction and gear losses. 

And I find it even harder to believe that BBee would sell such a thing for so long. That's just plain disgraceful!


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I confess that I find it hard to believe that even a 1/4 hp motor might not have enough oomph to run a lathe at top speed with no load other than system friction and gear losses.
> 
> And I find it even harder to believe that BBee would sell such a thing for so long. That's just plain disgraceful!



Well I am sure if there was a clutch system build in your 1/4 hp may have made it. Maybe. Problem is initial slow down caused by oil - oil is at the bottom happily resting and suddenly some gears are demanded to turn at close to 2000 rpm. Once system gets going it goes - the problem is initial inertia of the spindle. So if your 1/4 is "hardy" and does not mind huge overloads...

I suspect problem batch was set with belts by default on "high speed" vs. "low speed". Also it is cold now and oil they may have put by default may be something rather thick. 

The motor is so under powered for this lathe that at top speed you can stop it with your hand with emery cloth with no effort at all. and I am talking about belt on low speed - on high speed I bet just looking at it will slow it down - i.e. there is no power left to do any useful work - even with emery cloth - maybe 400 grit. 

BB guys are a bit clueless. All sales pp I remember at BB in Calgary did not know much - they just sell this stuff, they are not machinists or experts on it. 

As I remember machine has 12 speeds, two belt positions - 6 speeds controlled with a levers - one lever is Hight and Low the other is 1 2 3. 

There is a reason big machines (or even some small ones) have a clutch - there is a reason why lights in my neighborhood dim when I start my big lathe in top speed with meaningful load in the chuck - someone less then bright did not add clutch. My small lathe has a clutch.


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> Well I am sure if there was a clutch system build in your 1/4 hp may have made it. Maybe. Problem is initial slow down caused by oil - oil is at the bottom happily resting and suddenly some gears are demanded to turn at close to 2000 rpm. Once system gets going it goes - the problem is initial inertia of the spindle. So if your 1/4 is "hardy" and does not mind huge overloads...



It was a figure of speech Tom. I just picked 1/4 horse to make a point. Judging by everything everyone is posting, the motor in there is a gutless wonder.


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## Susquatch (Dec 14, 2021)

Just can't stop thinking about your problem @DHHok, and cannot seem to stop myself from making suggestions and discussing alternatives.

First I want to say that I admire your tenacity. Some would throw the kitchen sink at the problem and be done with it. Your desire to rassle it to the ground and understand the root cause is the right way to go about it in my mind.

I suggested earlier to try running it without the drive belt(s). This will either rule out or confirm that the problem is affected by load.

If it still doesn't work then you know it's not a load related issue.

If it works, then you know the wiring is correct and the components are working as designed.

If it works, that wouldn't mean the design was correct though. The design still might be under-rated for the application. Also, it could still be a defective winding or a centrifugal switch that is cutting out too fast or a capacitor that isn't loading up adequately. But at least you will have ruled out a few obvious possibilities.

The other thing I can't seem to stop thinking about is the possibility that it's a combination of factors.

If I take the view that @Tom Kitta is correct about the issue being too much load due to thick oil on an underpowered motor, and that your hunch about the centrifugal switch or windings also being correct, then I can start to see the picture coming into focus.

Here is how I see that combined possibility making sense:

Available HP is the ability to do work at given rate. It is related to torque but is time dependant. HP manifests itself in your case as how long the motor takes to spin up to speed. For a given HP, the time to do that is governed by two factors - system inertia & load. It may well be that there are both inertia and load related differences between the high speed range and other ranges but the bottom line is that the motor may be marginal for the requirements. If so, it could take sooooo long to spin up that the start system does not have enough time to get things going fast enough for the run system to take over effectively. Or alternatively that the speed transition (what the centrifugal switch does) between low and high happens too early in the process when the motor doesn't have enough rotational speed to power through into normal operation. In both cases, the solution is to reduce load (thinner oil) OR increase the centrifugal set point.

A bad winding or an underpowered motor will both act the same way. However, the solution for them is a new or bigger motor.

Last, but not least is the matter of busy bee themselves. Knowing that they are just a flipper of machines built overseas and sold to Canadians, it is easy for me to believe that it might take decades to fix a problem. And furthermore, that they might take decades to even recognize it. Hence the special sale of a designated model number YEARS after the problem existed. Its also possible that someone someplace sued them over it and that got their attention.

Anyway, I really can't wait to see what you all find, and I apologize for throwing even more info at you.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 14, 2021)

I just realized BB was / is aware of the issue and hence they advertise bigger 1.5hp motor vs. old 1hp. But why false advertising of 1hp motor? Well, you can get 1.5hp in 120v - PA sells 1.5hp with 14 amps at 110V. So it is possible. Costs would not be huge and problem would be solved. After all BB gets Chinese to paint lathes their colors so putting in bigger motor would not be a problem... or so it seems. 

Putting in 1.5hp would mean that they had to change the belt system as I doubt single 1/2" belt could transmit 1.5hp at both ratios. So either 5/8 belt or twin 1/2". There may not be enough space for twin 1/2". 

But there is even bigger problem - which stopped them in their tracks - the gear mechanism needs to be rated for 1.5hp. If its not people would break gears in the machine. The machine has good low range. Imagine taking a heavy cut of say 6" piece at lowest speed. Gear train should be able to handle this up to stalling of the machine. I bet they were worried that with 1.5hp there will be just enough power to break something in the gearbox vs. stalling. Say hello to huge warranty problem. 

So cheapest & safest solution was to rebadge old 1hp as "new" 1.5hp. 

I am still shocked they did not demand ISO 32 oil in their machines - or maybe they did but got thicker one anyways. 

As for "flaky" motors they simply may have a bit too weak centrifugal switch spring which turns at a bit lower speed & without help of extra winding the motor under load cannot get up to speed. Or they may have a bit too aggressive safety mechanism that turns off the motor too early to protect it. 

Best solution is to switch to 2hp & do not hammer the machine in low gear. Also be aware there will be belt slip.


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## DHHok (Dec 14, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> Oh not at all -


That's good.  It's always difficult to discuss different opinions when your not face to face, because how a sentence is read and in what tone, can completely change its intention.
So it's good to know that we're just having a friendly chat.
I went down the road of checking the motor 1st because I feel the same as Susquatch and find it hard to believe BB would sell a machine for years with a know problem.....and why would they only identify a small batch of machines as having an issue and then go right back to selling them.  That doesn't make sense even for a reseller and Chinese company.
Also, I'm checking the motor first because I'm stubborn and always blindly go down the path I believe is right, even when others have been there and tell me it's wrong.  I have to see it for myself type attitude.  

Susquatch, make as many suggestions as you like.  
I haven't run the motor without the belt because I believe it will easily run up to speed.  It runs in 9 of the 12 gears, so it does run with a load.  No reason it wouldn't run without load.  Stranger things have happened though, so it's an easy test to do.

Last night I removed the motor and checked the centrifugal switch.  It looks to be good.  If it is dropping out too early (as I suggested), I have no way of changing that, as there is no way to adjust the spring tension.  So I'm going to say the switch is ok.  (One step closer to an oil change )
My previous post saying there were 3 windings in the motor is incorrect.  There are 2 windings and the capacitor/switch circuit.  I had to go online last night and re-educate myself on single phase  motors.  I say "re-educate", because (embarrassingly) I should know this.  I took automation/robotics in college and motors where a big part of it.  That was decades ago, though.  So, as the saying goes, "_Use it or lose it_".
I did check both windings with a meter and get continuity in both, so there is no break there.  The meter can't tell me if there is a short somewhere in one of the windings, so that is still a possibility.  If there is a short, it would cause a loss of power/torque.  I'd have to take it to a rebuilder to get the windings tested properly, which I will do if I can't solve the problem.  I also checked the cap circuit, with and without the centrifugal switch closed and it metered as expected.
So I now know for sure what each motor wire is.
My next step is to pull out the forward/reverse switch and confirm it is functioning correctly.  Then I'm going to wire the motor and circuit up how I know it should be.
If it still doesn't work.......then I will change the oil.  Be patient Tom.  I'm getting there.


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## DHHok (Dec 14, 2021)

Tom, the belt system is still 1/2" single belt.
I just realized I don't think I can use the 2hp motor I have because it isn't reversible.  The reversing part completely slipped my mind until just now.  
Worst case scenario, if I can't find out what the problem is, I'll just use as is for now, until I decide to change to VFD.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 14, 2021)

DHHok said:


> That's good.  It's always difficult to discuss different opinions when your not face to face, because how a sentence is read and in what tone, can completely change its intention.
> So it's good to know that we're just having a friendly chat.
> I went down the road of checking the motor 1st because I feel the same as Susquatch and find it hard to believe BB would sell a machine for years with a know problem.....and why would they only identify a small batch of machines as having an issue and then go right back to selling them.  That doesn't make sense even for a reseller and Chinese company.
> Also, I'm checking the motor first because I'm stubborn and always blindly go down the path I believe is right, even when others have been there and tell me it's wrong.  I have to see it for myself type attitude.
> ...



I am curious - does it say 1.5hp on the badge of the motor next to 11 amps draw? 

I am also not 100% on motor theory - details. When the starter winding stops at say 1000 rpm and motor has to get to its "normal" speed of say 1760 rpm (1800rpm minus slip) what is the torque like? Since we do need starter winding I am guessing that torque is lower then the one at normal speed. 

Also I wonder if playing with run capacitor may help - maybe flaky motor means a bit too weak run capacitor - they are made in values in between - maybe these are on the lower end of the stamped value. Or even under performing.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 14, 2021)

DHHok said:


> Tom, the belt system is still 1/2" single belt.
> I just realized I don't think I can use the 2hp motor I have because it isn't reversible.  The reversing part completely slipped my mind until just now.
> Worst case scenario, if I can't find out what the problem is, I'll just use as is for now, until I decide to change to VFD.



You can get reversing motors at PA. Or sometimes on auctions - but they are indeed rare.


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## DHHok (Dec 14, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> I am curious - does it say 1.5hp on the badge of the motor next to 11 amps draw?
> 
> I am also not 100% on motor theory - details. When the starter winding stops at say 1000 rpm and motor has to get to its "normal" speed of say 1760 rpm (1800rpm minus slip) what is the torque like? Since we do need starter winding I am guessing that torque is lower then the one at normal speed.
> 
> Also I wonder if playing with run capacitor may help - maybe flaky motor means a bit too weak run capacitor - they are made in values in between - maybe these are on the lower end of the stamped value. Or even under performing.


It says 1100 Watts, which is just shy of 1.5hp.   It's also rated at 14.5A, not 11.  I'm going to confirm the running amps once I put it back together.
I thought of the cap size also.  The caps are larger than what the internet says they should be.  But then so are the caps on my compressor motor, and it runs fine.  I think the internet might be wrong sometimes.  
If I can't fix the problem, I really don't think I'll replace the motor.  The speeds it can run at are enough for me at this point in time.  If I end up needing more (and I keep the lathe), I'll switch to VFD.


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## Susquatch (Dec 14, 2021)

Hmmmmm..... All good stuff. I'd still test it no load. Easy peasy to do. 

If it were here, I'd put an oscilloscope on it and watch the ramp up voltage current and speed. 

Caps are typically +/- 10 or even 20%. No harm in trying a bigger or smaller one. 

My lathe has a 2hp 230V volt single phase motor in it. Someday (not at top of my priorities) I will put a 3ph motor and VFD in it to get lower speeds than available now. 

Not safe to assume torque goes down with rpm. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the motor. 

Very odd that the motor model number from the online docs doesn't match the motor specs. Do you have the actual motor model number handy?


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## PeterT (Dec 14, 2021)

I'm not very electrically savvy, so take these comments as FWIW.

On bigger motors its common to state both 'unloaded running amps' and FLA (full load amps) and/or sometimes maximum amps which I think leans more to running conditions at load. Depending on what you read, FLA can be +35% higher than RA. FLA is probably more important if FLA is tickling/exceeding wire/plug/breaker rating, because you cannot get to lower nominal running current before first going through initial higher current in start mode. Now maybe on lower watt hobby motors like this, they are not documenting RA/FLA distinction - they assume typical wall outlet amp rating has lots of headroom so who cares. Or to be 'safe' they are referencing FLA as 'the current' & that is artificially inflating the motor power which sounds better on brochure even though we don't machine anything in start mode. I guess my point is, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in what is on the specs coming from these countries. Sometimes you will see the N-Am importers attempt to CSA-itize the offshore specs, either to clarify or cover their butts, not sure. The only way to know is put a meter on the line & see what it's drawing. Only reason I mention this is to flush out what your line/breaker situation is. Some people have observed funky things where they have (I think they are called) ground fault outlets. Or their breaker/line is borderline to FLA & that's tripping something on the machine side depending on what it has for protection circuitry. And who knows, maybe FLA is rated at room temp but the motor could physically pull a bit more current with more viscous oil? Some of the blondihacks vids I've seen she resets or pops in new fuses like some people pop Smarties.

Getting back the the centrifugal switch assembly. There is the CS itself, confirm it's counterweights are able to swing out properly, proper spring pressure, unobstructed motion etc. But (depending on CS design) there may also be the underlying contactor plate  which is making the physical electrical contact to respective capacitor circuit as CS moves in/out of position. In my case it was that particular POS that was causing grief. The contact pads are on the end of a sheet metal arm, kind of a rudimentary spring. You can bend them quite easily. If they are not bent quite enough, the physical contact is weak which means current can be interrupted or flakey - sloppy switch syndrome. Or the pads can get pitted or burnt from false starts & such & need to be dressed. Low contact area = high resistance. Next time you are in there, take a pic & share. This may or may not pertain to your machine because CS come in different flavors.


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## Tom O (Dec 14, 2021)

Watch this.


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## trlvn (Dec 14, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> You can get reversing motors at PA. Or sometimes on auctions - but they are indeed rare.


Rare?  Not in my experience.  For example, the following is an old CGE 1hp utility motor:





Sorry for the poor picture but it says to interchange the black and red leads to reverse rotation.

The following is the wiring diagram from my Craftex mill drill:






In this case, swapping 5 and 6 reverses rotation.

To work with a drum switch, the leads inside the motor need to be extended out to the switch.

Craig


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## PeterT (Dec 14, 2021)

Underneath my CS is this contactor plate thingy. That was the troublemaker.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 15, 2021)

trlvn said:


> Rare?  Not in my experience.  For example, the following is an old CGE 1hp utility motor:
> 
> Craig



Well not very rare - but most 1ph motors I have are a single direction - many are "cheap" and "farm duty". I would guess, 75% of the motors in 1ph I have are just single direction - I would have to check. 

So maybe not rare but a bit less common?


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## YotaBota (Dec 16, 2021)

I know this may sound overly simple but what about taking it in to a motor shop and have it looked at? It will cost a few bucks but it would put to rest the condition of the motor. If it is a problem with the motor and you can live without the high speeds for now all is good. Use the machine until such time as a 3phase/vfd setup becomes viable.
My $.02


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 16, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> I know this may sound overly simple but what about taking it in to a motor shop and have it looked at? It will cost a few bucks but it would put to rest the condition of the motor. If it is a problem with the motor and you can live without the high speeds for now all is good. Use the machine until such time as a 3phase/vfd setup becomes viable.
> My $.02



They even have these in Canada for motors under 50hp? Even if they do the rates are probably at least 75/h or more likely 100/h. Much easier and cheaper and 100% sure way is to just get brand new reversing motor from say PA or online from motors website - here you can pick and choose exact name etc. - very competitive prices.


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## YotaBota (Dec 16, 2021)

Couple of years ago I bought new Baldor TEFC 3/4hp motor for $80 and for another $60 had it rewired for reversing. For me it came down to what my time was worth. I could spend a day fiddling around with the motor wiring, hope to get it right and not let the smoke out having to buy another motor or pay the shop $60 to do it correctly the first time.


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## Bofobo (Dec 17, 2021)

I’m going to throw in that I have this lathe as well, I’ve never had it at full power myself, it’s on a power bar and always trips when I try the higher speeds, I’m using factory oil and gear oil mix, Its in a basement so steady temps, I will try the warm up that Tom suggests, then perhaps change the weight if the problem persists. My assumption is that the motor rated as 1.5hp On my placard was simply Op for the 125.v 15a outlet, just like my plasma cutter will work on 110 but only for a few inches ata time


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## DHHok (Dec 17, 2021)

So I've finished working on this problem and the final results are in.
Drum roll please......................Tom, I declare you the winner!......but just by a nose...

It was actually more than just the oil and it still won't run at the top speed, but it now runs on 11 of the 12 speeds.

I have a way of making a short story long, but this is what I did, and what I found.
I ran the motor without belts, because Susquatch was curious, but it ran fine with no load.

The motor & control circuit wiring was suspect, because it didn't match the wiring diagram and it wasn't wired properly.  I'm not going to go as far as say it was wired wrong.  It just wasn't wired to CEC and accepted standards.  I kept losing my train of thought trying to trace the wiring because they kept mixing up the symbols, so it was easier for me to just start from scratch and redo it all.
An example is; the motor tag is U, V, Z and the (internal) motor wires are U, V, W and the control wires are U, O, Z. 
Sooo...... O goes to W (which is motor tag Z), but Z control wire goes to V, which is the capacitors.....but Z on the tag is the auxiliary windings so Z should go to Z.......but O goes to W, which is the same as tag Z.....but......ugh.
So after rewiring it all I got 850rpm, but still couldn't run 1100 or 1600.  However, I only got 850 once then it was back to not starting.  After about 3 tries, it wouldn't start at any speed and just hummed.  Sounds like a blown cap, but upon checking they looked good.  Out comes the motor and off comes the front plate again.  When I was reassembling the motor the 1st time, I guess I didn't tuck the switch wire out of the way and it had snagged on the centrifugal switch and ripped lose.  So I soldered it back on and reassembled.
While I was doing all this I noticed there was a tear in the insulating paper for the Run cap and it looked to line up perfectly with one of the terminals.  Now I couldn't see any signs of it shorting out, but after I fixed it and put it back on, I could consistently get 850.  Still couldn't run 1100 or 1600, but it _almost_ would start at 1100.

So then I went from ISO68 to the lighter weight ISO32 oil and I can consistently get all speeds except 1600.  The motor definitely strains to start at 1100, but it does get it up to speed.  So I'm stopping there and will just use as is.

My final conclusion to all this is that the motor is in no way whatsoever 1.5hp.  I doubt it's even 1hp.
Going to a lighter weight oil is a must because the motor is simply underpowered.
That being said, I am still clinging to the belief that there is an issue with the centrifugal switch.  The switch itself is ok, but I don't think it's weighted properly for how this motor is used.
If the motor was just underpowered, it would bog down, not be able to turn the load, and end up tripping the breaker.  This motor bucks and heaves as if the power is quickly being turned on/off.
The contactor is staying engaged, so there is no lose of power.  The only thing I can think of is my original thought.  The centrifugal switch is opening too soon.  That causes the motor to slow down and switch re-engages.  That sends a big inrush of current to the motor and causes the "bucking".  Then it speeds up and the switch opens.....repeat.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 17, 2021)

Yeah I like to win! I was worried when the label said 1.5hp and amps 14 - with more power I was worried maybe its not oil... But it looks like they just changed the label on the motor to say 1.5hp and its just old 1hp. Maybe you can put clamp meter on the wire and see how many amps it really draws. Make it work hard and start to slow down and see how many amps it is taking. 

I also was surprised when they increased power by 50% and did not even change belt size up. Who would have thought they put false label on the motor? 

My old 089 would start with old oil at the 850 (or one down 740?) consistently when warmed up. Since yours is in warm environment already it is warmed up. I guess wires were messed up & hence this batch had more speed starting problems then "usual".

I have no clue why after 10 years they simply did not change to correct oil.


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## Susquatch (Dec 17, 2021)

What a sad indictment of Busy Bee.... 

Thanks for humouring me and running the motor without belts. 

I'm satisfied that the issue is an underpowered motor and a lot of things designed to make sure it can never live up to what is expected of it. 

I am of the view that the centrifugal switch would work fine on a properly powered motor. But when the motor is underpowered the motor doesn't provide enough oomph to get through the switch limit so it stalls and the cycle repeats. 

If I were you, I'd both change the motor AND reduce the loads. 

Good on you for persevering.


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## gerritv (Dec 17, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> What a sad indictment of Busy Bee....


Why? they said there was a problem, and significantly reduced the price. And fixed/resolved the issue on new stock.


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## Susquatch (Dec 18, 2021)

gerritv said:


> Why? they said there was a problem, and significantly reduced the price. And fixed/resolved the issue on new stock.



Unless I have totally misread this thread, there has always been a problem, and they still have a problem. They just sold a few with an even bigger problem at a discount. 

It's a bit like selling a car that won't run in 4th gear but only giving a discount to those that won't run in 3rd either and never even acknowledging or fixing the 4th gear problem. 

Sad, just plain sad. But I do sincerely hope that I am wrong.


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## trlvn (Dec 18, 2021)

I only have enough electrical knowledge and experience to be dangerous.  Could someone who understands motor theory lend a hand?  I believe the motor being discussed here has a start capacitor and and a run capacitor.  If one or both are somewhat below their design spec, could that explain the performance problems described in this thread?  

If the centrifuge switch is also poorly designed or badly constructed, that could compound the issues.

I take it as a given that Chinese motors are cheap.  Designed to use the least possible amount of copper, etc.  Assembled with the lowest cost components available of which the capacitors would be a non-trivial element.  Nonetheless, they would not be saleable if they wouldn't run at all.  

What if there was a batch of capacitors that produced the low end of the range of capacitance that they are specified for?  They might still be "within spec" but when coupled with a marginal design of the rest of the motor, they don't have enough oomph to get up to running RPM when faced with a somewhat higher starting load.

This is where I'm well out in the weeds, though.  I seem to recall that measuring capacitance isn't that straightforward.  But I think if the OP took the caps to a motor shop, they could probably check them.  New capacitors are pretty inexpensive--$15 to $20 range--so maybe just buying new ones is something to consider.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Dec 18, 2021)

trlvn said:


> I only have enough electrical knowledge and experience to be dangerous.  Could someone who understands motor theory lend a hand?  I believe the motor being discussed here has a start capacitor and and a run capacitor.  If one or both are somewhat below their design spec, could that explain the performance problems described in this thread?
> 
> If the centrifuge switch is also poorly designed or badly constructed, that could compound the issues.
> 
> ...



Measuring a capacitor isn't straightforward as you say, but it isn't difficult either. Many multimeters come with a range for testing capacitance. If yours doesn't have that, maybe you know someone with one that does. Or you can go to a tool place and borrow one or even just "evaluate" one ostensibly before buying.

If not, here is link to how you can test one using the time constant method without the required range on your multimeter. It's actually pretty easy to do too. You just need a good stop watch, a decent battery, and a resistor. You can use the formulas at this link and the capacitance you think you have to select a decent size of resistor for the job that will make measuring the time doable.

Basically you charge the capacitor with a known voltage through a known resistor and measure the time it takes for the voltage on the cap to reach 63% of the battery voltage.  

Edit - I know the link says "invalid request" but click on it anyway. 






						Resistor-Capacitor (RC) Time Constant Calculator | DigiKey Electronics
					

Calculate resistor-capacitor (RC) time constant of a resistor-capacitor circuit by entering voltage, capacitance, and load resistance values.



					www.digikey.ca


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## DHHok (Dec 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> If I were you, I'd both change the motor AND reduce the loads.


And reduce the load??  Geez, for the most part I'm only turning 1" stock.  

In regards to the caps, I believe they are ok.  I tested with a multimeter and although I didn't calculate the capacitance, my gut (which is often smarter than my brain), feels they are good.
I could take the motor to a shop and have it fully tested, but with how the machine is running now, I have no real need to.
Besides, if it ended up that something was wrong with the motor, that would mean the oil weight was not a problem.  I just don't have it in me to take the win back from Tom.


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## RobinHood (Dec 19, 2021)

DHHok said:


> Geez, for the most part I'm only turning 1" stock.


And that is exactly why you’d want the 1600 rpm working -> the smaller the diameter, the higher the spindle speed you need.

Kudos for persevering and trying to get to work what you have. I think your analysis was very methodical and you found some issues which you corrected. If the BB discount was big enough, I would turf that motor and get a decent quality one (or at least replace the caps - I would even go one size up on the start cap).

By putting on a motor that actually works for this lathe, you increase the value of the machine. It solves all the headaches and you will enjoy it more.


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## Susquatch (Dec 19, 2021)

DHHok said:


> And reduce the load?? Geez, for the most part I'm only turning 1" stock.



I meant to use lighter weight oil. Besides, for small stuff you need high rpm. 



DHHok said:


> In regards to the caps, I believe they are ok. I tested with a multimeter and although I didn't calculate the capacitance, my gut (which is often smarter than my brain), feels they are good.



The soft gut is easy to fool because it likes to be right. Best to trust cold hard logic and evidence and keep your gut happy with Christmas baking.... Ho ho ho.....


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## DHHok (Dec 20, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> If the BB discount was big enough, I would turf that motor and get a decent quality one (or at least replace the caps - I would even go one size up on the start cap).
> By putting on a motor that actually works for this lathe, you increase the value of the machine. It solves all the headaches and you will enjoy it more.


I'll probably install a VFD.  I can pick up a good 3ph motor for about $100, so along with a cheap chinese VFD, I'd be into it for under $300


Susquatch said:


> Best to trust cold hard logic....


I never let logic interfere with my train of thought.


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## Susquatch (Dec 20, 2021)

DHHok said:


> I never let logic interfere with my train of thought.



Can't say I blame you, but I try very hard to do the opposite.


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## combustable herbage (Dec 22, 2021)

Logic always solves the problem but is not always the most efficient way, intuition/gut can be a big benefit but you can get burned as well and sometimes cost you more but you have to be willing to accept the outcome.   I like to do things logically till I can see an opportunity for an efficiency, I guess we could call that experience.


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## Susquatch (Dec 22, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> Logic always solves the problem but is not always the most efficient way, intuition/gut can be a big benefit but you can get burned as well and sometimes cost you more but you have to be willing to accept the outcome.   I like to do things logically till I can see an opportunity for an efficiency, I guess we could call that experience.



They say that experience is the toughest teacher of all because she gives the test BEFORE the lesson. 

I prefer to learn from the mistakes that others make, but somehow or another I seem to make plenty of my own anyway.


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## ThirtyOneDriver (Jan 15, 2022)

Sweet @DHHok 

I also have one of those heavily discounted CX709"x"s... I have zero experience w/ electrical motors, etc. (@Tom Kitta's oil change is on my list of things to do).  Where would I start to source a replacement motor?  I expected the machine to be 220v 1ph before buying and would still be open to that as a possibility.  (devil on my shoulder says "sell it" for whoever is going to say that next)  Anyone in Ontario willing to do a motor swap (as in replace mine)?


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## Susquatch (Jan 15, 2022)

ThirtyOneDriver said:


> Where would I start to source a replacement motor?



Gotta know what you want/need before you start looking

Tough to find motors on Kijiji, ebay, marketplace, etc. But that is probably your least expensive option. 

E-Motors Canada is also a good place to shop for new ones.


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