# Used machines Germany



## PeterT (May 30, 2021)

Was looking up a machine & stumbled on this place. Kind of interesting what's on the other side of the pond.   Road  ...Boat Trip!

https://althaus-maschinen.com/maschinen-kategorie/metallbearbeitung/drehmaschinen/


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## Beez12 (May 30, 2021)

NYC CNC YouTube Channel has done a couple home shop tours of German machinists. Those Weiler machines appear to be very well regarded.


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## John Conroy (May 30, 2021)

Wow, lots of used Deckel mills!


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## Canadium (May 30, 2021)

Beez12 said:


> NYC CNC YouTube Channel has done a couple home shop tours of German machinists. Those Weiler machines appear to be very well regarded.



Thats why this Weiler in Brampton ON caught my eye. I thought the price was rather steep even for a good old lathe but I'm no expert. So I was wondering what the marketplace verdict would be. Kijiji says its been posted for 23 days. Seems to me I've been watching it for a lot longer than that.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...-lz330-lathe-machine-3ph-5hp-motor/1554594771

PS for some reason @PeterT 's link doesn't work for me.


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## RobinHood (May 30, 2021)

Perhaps another observation about European vs North American machines: the € machines seem of a lighter build generally but require massive foundations vs the NA which are built very heavy on their own and achieve rigidity that way.

For example: if I were to follow the manual for the CMT, I would need to pour a 27”x33”x 12-16” deep pad for the HS and a 22”x24”x 12-16” deep pad for the TS. That’s just shy of 2000lbs of concrete. Bolt it down using 6 9/16”x 8” concrete J anchors. Then level the machine. According to the manual,  one should be able to achieve superior accuracy that way.






I am going to see what happens by just setting the lathe on the 6” reinforced concrete floor - before I start digging foundations...


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## PeterT (May 30, 2021)

> PS for some reason link doesn't work for me

I backed up to the main page, does this help? https://althaus-maschinen.com/


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## Canadium (May 30, 2021)

PeterT said:


> > PS for some reason link doesn't work for me
> 
> I backed up to the main page, does this help? https://althaus-maschinen.com/



Yes thanks. That works fine!


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## Canadium (May 30, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> For example: if I were to follow the manual for the CMT, I would need to pour a 27”x33”x 12-16” deep pad for the HS and a 22”x24”x 12-16” deep pad for the TS. That’s just shy of 2000lbs of concrete. Bolt it down using 6 9/16”x 8” concrete J anchors. Then level the machine. According to the manual,  one should be able to achieve superior accuracy that way.
> 
> ...



Is this a floating concrete pad on top of an existing concrete floor? As a newbie I'm a little confused. I read a lot and I see some people say anchor to the floor and others say don't anchor to the floor. Adding weight to the base seems like a logical way to increase rigidity and reduce vibration but some argue floors will shift and crack and such movement could damage your machine if its anchored to the floor. I always imagined I could vastly improve the performance of my flimsy 9 inch South Bend by replacing the base with a floating solid concrete table.


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## John Conroy (May 30, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Perhaps another observation about European vs North American machines: the € machines seem of a lighter build generally but require massive foundations vs the NA which are built very heavy on their own and achieve rigidity that way.
> 
> For example: if I were to follow the manual for the CMT, I would need to pour a 27”x33”x 12-16” deep pad for the HS and a 22”x24”x 12-16” deep pad for the TS. That’s just shy of 2000lbs of concrete. Bolt it down using 6 9/16”x 8” concrete J anchors. Then level the machine. According to the manual,  one should be able to achieve superior accuracy that way.
> 
> ...



I guess when you need to add mass concrete is cheaper than cast iron.


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## RobinHood (May 30, 2021)

Canadium said:


> Is this a floating concrete pad on top of an existing concrete floor?



I do not think so. I think these foundation plans were devised when a lot of machine shops still had hardwood floors - like the blacksmith shop next to our house in Europe. The floor was made out of oak 4”x4” about 1 foot long. They were standing on their ends on a bed of sand. When they brought in heavy machines (punch presses, radial arm drill, etc. they just removed the appropriate amount of 4x4s, dug out some of the sand, and poured in concrete after they made a rebar mesh. Then the machine was anchored to the pad.

The Cazaneuve manual talks about similar foundation pads. I think they actually specifically state to anchor the machine down and set it up to ensure the accuracy is to spec. They also mention that the setup needs to be checked regularly, at least every 6 months, iirc.

I agree that floors move. The amount depends heavily on the environment/climate the building is located in, the way the floor is designed and how good the concrete is.



Canadium said:


> I always imagined I could vastly improve the performance of my flimsy 9 inch South Bend by replacing the base with a floating solid concrete table.



That should help. You know that there are modern lathes that have a “concrete” bed? Here is an example:






https://www.knuth-usa.com/us/servoturn-410-1000-servo-conventional-lathe-300825


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## RobinHood (May 30, 2021)

I am actually considering concrete for the gap that I am missing on the CMT lathe. Have steel rails embedded in the forms while casting that could then be ground in situ and finished scraped. Sounds easy enough, but probably is very difficult to do...


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## Beez12 (May 30, 2021)

I love the discussion on lathe foundations. Ideally based on the polar moment of inertia, the best base would be a large cylinder. Don’t think that’s too feasible for mounting equipment.
Need an engineer to comment further on that.


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## Brent H (May 30, 2021)

Hey Rudy,  Have you ever thought about pouring liquid chocking to keep your lathe nice on a flat surface?

We use Chockfast for setting engine beds and generators etc.  It is probably very expensive for a regular joe but there should be (maybe) other similar products? - I will have a look on the google google


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## RobinHood (May 30, 2021)

I have not, Brent. That looks like a very interesting product for sure. PDF saved for future consideration. Thanks!


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## YYCHM (May 30, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Have you ever thought about pouring liquid chocking to keep your lathe nice on a flat surface?



Not sure I'm following this..... so you level the machine and then pour pads under and around the levelers?  What happens if you have to re-level?


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## Canadium (May 31, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> I do not think so. I think these foundation plans were devised when a lot of machine shops still had hardwood floors - like the blacksmith shop next to our house in Europe. The floor was made out of oak 4”x4” about 1 foot long. They were standing on their ends on a bed of sand. When they brought in heavy machines (punch presses, radial arm drill, etc. they just removed the appropriate amount of 4x4s, dug out some of the sand, and poured in concrete after they made a rebar mesh. Then the machine was anchored to the pad.
> 
> The Cazaneuve manual talks about similar foundation pads. I think they actually specifically state to anchor the machine down and set it up to ensure the accuracy is to spec. They also mention that the setup needs to be checked regularly, at least every 6 months, iirc.
> 
> ...



@RobinHood That makes a lot of sense! I had no idea thay had floors like that in Europe or that some lathes had concrete bases! Very enlightening! Thanks for the feedback!


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## Brent H (May 31, 2021)

@YYCHM


> Not sure I'm following this..... so you level the machine and then pour pads under and around the levelers? What happens if you have to re-level?



Once the machine is in position (level is a relative term on a ship but should remain true on shore) you pour the pads, the resin hardens without shrinking (very important) and the machine is bolted down and torqued to the bed plate or floor.  It should NEVER move.  It will remain in position for the life of the engine/vessel or in a factory until you are scrapping the machine.  If you are changing things out, then the machine is removed and the resin that stays behind is hammered out and the surfaces cleaned off with wire wheels and such to prepare for a new machine and a new pour.

If you put a lathe or mill in at home and you know it will stay in the position you put it for as long as you will use it, you can pour this (or similar) stuff and "viola!~" your machine will remain perfect for many many years.

In the "old days" mill wrights would fit the machines or engines and then measure for chocks at every place the machine was bolted down.  Each chock was fitted to its location by fabrication of individual blocks of steel or cast iron.  Then the item was torqued down.  This process took a very long time.  You could do the same at home if you have that kind of time.  

Concrete shrinks as it cures so it may remain flat and "level" but there will be a gap under the pads of the machine if you try and bolt it to the floor.


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## Hacker (May 31, 2021)

Interesting topic, I can see the need for  the method that Brent has posted for on a ship. What about the use of feet with vibration pads on a lathe or mill? Here is a link for Haas anchoring instructions.
https://www.haascnc.com/service/tro...o/how-to/anchoring-instructions---ad0212.html They use vibration pads and anchoring points. I have in floor heating in my shop and unfortunately I was not foresighted enough to consider anchor points for my machines when I poured the floor.


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## Brent H (May 31, 2021)

@Hacker : if you ever need to drill a hole, a thermal imaging camera can locate the heating lines in your floor.  I have the same in floor heating in the shop.


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## Brent H (May 31, 2021)

Here is some other information:

https://ohvanhorn.com/loct-37316loct-37316.html
https://www.mining.com/web/belzona-launches-new-pourable-chocking-compound/

It is surprising that the manufacturers are more gearing the use to the marine field  but for large lathes, a milling machine etc that will sit in the same spot on the shop floor - this stuff would be awesome and a very fast install.  Given how anal retentive the machinist can be with the required 0.00000001 % accuracy they expect, this liquid chocking to a floor after you are precision leveled seems like a no brainer.  Anyway, it pours pretty thick and fills all gaps so you could have quite the floor level issue and still put a machine right on spec.

Loctite makes a type as it looks like belzona does.  Belzona has some very interesting epoxy type repair products for building up worn surfaces and preventing corrosion.  Maybe not the same as filling in a bed way or such but they make some neat stuff.


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