# Well, Finally Found a Used Shaper, Took the Plunge



## Everett (Apr 25, 2019)

So last Friday I took a 3 hour drive to pick up an old shaper, an Alba 1A. Only 3 pictures on the website, so was a bit of a gamble.  Unfortunately a nasty flu had started in our house beginning with my son a couple days previous, and I started feeling it coming on during the drive home.  So, it sat tarped in the truck in the driveway till today. 










Been sitting in a barn for quite a while, so a bit of rust color to the critical surfaces but not bad.  Got lots of crusting/peeling paint of various colors and some rust in non-critical areas, and although there are a couple parts that show evidence of crash repairs it looks like it hasn't been abused. 










Had to disassemble it to unload it and wanted to go through it anyway, noting which small pieces are missing or needing repair.  So, here's my new toy that the other toys will help fix. 

Been able to find a scan of the original manual, still working on the serial number trying to figure out when it was made. I did have a question for any seasoned shaper veterans, and that is what was the original Alba color? This thing has multiple layers of paint, and if there was no 'standard' color then I'm thinking of using my favorite 'candy apple gray,' like one of my viewers calls it, lol!


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 25, 2019)

Everett said:


> I did have a question for any seasoned shaper veterans, and that is what was the original Alba color? This thing has multiple layers of paint, and if there was no 'standard' color then I'm thinking of using my favorite 'candy apple gray,' like one of my viewers calls it, lol!


Under no circumstance am I a seasoned veteran. But we had an Alba in my junior high school metal shop in the 1970's. It was gray.


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## YYCHM (Apr 25, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> Under no circumstance am I a seasoned veteran. But we had an Alba in my junior high school metal shop in the 1970's. It was gray.



You remember the make of the shaper from your 1970's JHS shop class????  Where was that?  I don't recollect the one I used at St Francis YYC being that big.  Maybe?  As to make, I have no idea.


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 25, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> You remember the make of the shaper from your 1970's JHS shop class????  Where was that?  I don't recollect the one I used at St Francis YYC being that big.  Maybe?  Make....?   Who would have latched on to that detail at JHS age.



I definitely remember it—for good reason: we had family friends with the same last name Alba, and I kidded them that I "used their machine" today whenever I got to use it. I had a huge crush on the girl in the family, so that's probably why I still remember her (I mean it).

It was St Greg's Junior High School in SW Calgary. I could be wrong but I think Albas must have been British? because the shop teacher was British and always talked about what great machines the British made...so I think he was biased. But I may have that detail wrong.

I also remember the first thing I made on it. It was a "machinist hammer." Pretty standard shop project. Squared steel head with angled rear face done on the Alba. The handle was done on the lathe and I recall it was the first time I got to knurl anything. I was super proud of it, but this other kid stole it from me and submitted it for his grade. Still mad about that.

It was definitely gray.

I'm still trolling the internet for the kid who stole my hammer.


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## YYCHM (Apr 25, 2019)

Was a tenderizing hammer head on the shaper for me and ya we knurled the handle on a lathe.

Did you suffer the 10min blood and guts safety films before every class?


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## CalgaryPT (Apr 25, 2019)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Was a tenderizing hammer head on the shaper for me and ya we knurled the handle on a lathe.
> 
> Did you suffer the 10min blood and guts safety films before every class?


Oh man, did I ever.

In the same shop there was a pulse jet engine (which got me hooked on those). I was so excited I forgot to put on the ear muffs even after watching the safety film. I thought I went deaf.


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## trlvn (Apr 26, 2019)

There is some Alba info--and drool-worthy pictures--on:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/Alba/







The restored machines are either a blue-gray or sea-foam green.  We won't tell if you use another colour!

Craig


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## DPittman (Apr 26, 2019)

Not that I know a damn thing about shapers, but your machine appears in pretty good shape.  The rust appears only very light surface rust and the machine does not look neglected otherwise. That should be a fun project.  Hope the flu leaves your household soon. We had it here too, the kids bring it home and get over it pretty fast and then I get it and it damn near kills me.


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## PeterT (Apr 26, 2019)

Nice machine. It will make a great resto project.


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## torinwalker (May 6, 2019)

I'm thinking about getting a shaper, but still on the fence. Love that the table can be rotated to an angle; I imagined the smaller shapers have fixed tables and one must incline the work in the vise, rather than rotate the table. Or... (silly question) do all the small ones do that? The only shaper I'm familiar with is the G&E on Abom79's channel.


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## Tom Kitta (May 6, 2019)

I just got a shaper and my parents are getting it now I am not sure which model exactly it is. Shapers are getting back in fashion and are now commanding premium price. There are very few left that one can get & not too many people want to get 36" monster that will take most of the garage.


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## johnnielsen (May 6, 2019)

Do you have a picture to post?
Wow  36" is big enough to do some serious resurfacing of machine ways.


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## Tom Kitta (May 6, 2019)

Not yet - mine is smaller - I am not sure of the size yet. My parents got it from Richie Bros. The worst auction ever. Never will buy from them again. They are still on  their way home.


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## Tom Kitta (May 7, 2019)

Here is the shaper on the back of a pickup. Its model 02 

Here is more info http://www.lathes.co.uk/prema-shapers/page3.html
and here http://www.lathes.co.uk/prema-shapers/

from what I can tell its a 14" shaper. Its around 1500 lbs from what I can tell from the docs.


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## CalgaryPT (May 7, 2019)

Bit of a follow-up question here...for what purpose would you still use a shaper vs a mill? I totally get the cool factor and if I had space I've love the nostalgia of owning one of those beautiful machines. 

Is there an application it does that a modern mill can't? Just curious....and jealous a bit too.


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## Tom Kitta (May 8, 2019)

Well, the foot print of my new shaper is just a bit larger then that of a mini-mill with a stand for it - so they are not that huge. It appears to be 13" through not 14" with a 2hp motor. 

The main "killer" application of a shaper where a mill just cannot do it is internal grooving. I.e. you can cut various sizes splines as well as simple internal keyways. Or maybe exotic internal gearing. I think internal keyways is the thing that would be most common. Not done too often, few times a year for most people.

Other then that you have unusual dovetails. Dovetail cutters are expensive and available in few standard sizes - for some strange reason not everyone follows the 45deg / 60deg scenario and some are 70deg. Custom ordered dovetail must be a fortune. Maybe once a year for average user.

Knurling. Yes it can be done on a manual mill if you enjoy watching paint dry. You can cut on flat stock nice pattern of small groves - just like the ones found on jaws of a shop vice. CNC  could do it in a snap - but you need to write a whole program for it and hope you don't snap that tiny endmill.

Other custom stuff. Say you need to repair a gear. You can check module of that gear, go to aliexpress and order the right cutter. A month later or more you can finish your project. You can go order from expensive place in Canada, wait a week and $100 get your cutter - or overnight it for $150. Or you can grab a piece of HSS grind it for 15min to the right shape and get it done today on a shaper. 

Shapers are going through a little renaissance now - they became much more rare then 10 - 15 years ago and people realised that for a home shop they have listed above uses. Maybe to super common or needed but still its an expansion of shop abilities.

Of course shaper can just make things flat with a piece of HSS. It can do so while you do other work. Its a conversation starter. Plenty of uses 

Yes as shocking as it sounds today small repair workshops can make $ on a shaper - through probably far less $ then on a mill or CNC that occupies same spot. 

There are also large shops with multiple large 24"+ shapers doing some very specific operation. Very rare - I was a bit shocked when a picture came up with more then a dozen large shapers in line doing production work. This is very rare and very niche application. 

You can still snap large shapers - probably > 24" for next to nothing. The 24" class in not heavy duty application can be under 2t and that is becoming the new "home shop" grade.


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## CalgaryPT (May 8, 2019)

They do look cool. Thanks.


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## PeterT (May 8, 2019)

Nice score Tom. What year is your Prema? 
Will the condition be revealed once you dig into it or is the the auction scenario kind of limited to turning the handles a bit?


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## Tom Kitta (May 8, 2019)

Not sure of the year - serial is 1434 - I am thinking 60 or 70s. Condition is still a bit unknown - I have to clean it up and put some grease on it. Then I am hoping it will simply start making chips. Certainly there is some wear on it but I am hoping its not a lot.


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## kevin.decelles (May 8, 2019)

Nice write up Tom, I was thinking of how to reply as to the “why a shaper” and here is how I look at it


If I had a 2019 mustang , why would I want a 1967 mustang when I my 2019 will do the same job........ 

Because it is vintage baby! There’s just something sexy about old classics!

I think a viewing party is in order......




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tom Kitta (May 8, 2019)

I need to clean it up first and make sure its all in working order + make sure I can use it  I just unloaded it yesterday and today maybe I do a bit of preliminary cleaning. 

I forgot to add to my list of things to do with a shaper that it is also handy in making quickly scale markings - i.e. these little lines you have on all sort of measuring collars or rulers. You could do it with tiny end-mill but that seems cumbersome to do.

I think the main thing that "killed" a shaper is its inability to drill holes. This combined with somewhat lower speed as compared to large mills that could more easily utilise carbide made it a less desirable tool for production work.


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## CalgaryPT (May 8, 2019)

kevin.decelles said:


> Because it is vintage baby!



And I totally get that.


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## Everett (May 8, 2019)

Very cool Tom, and excellent treatise in defence of shapers and their usefulness, couldn't have said it better myself! Looking forward to pictures of yours once you're running. Mine's still torn apart as I slowly pick away at stripping paint, checking for more broken stuff and having fun with Whitworth fasteners - had to order some Whitworth tools from England to avoid rounding off bolts . . . 
Very cool that you got a vise with yours as well. I'm trying to find either a vise not costing an arm, leg and testicle, or otherwise a plan for making a shaper vise from stock. Still looking, all in time. 
From what I read though, sounds like the Premas were good machines! Nice score!


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## Dabbler (May 8, 2019)

Another killer app is to slot a long shaft end to end, much like a feed rod on a lathe.  I can be done on the mill, but with the right setup, it is done in a fraction of the time on a shaper.

In modern high-volume gear shops, gear blanks are mounted on a spindle and a rotary feed arrangement spin the gear stack as a shaper roughs the gear blanks.  They are finish machined or hobbed (depending on the type of gear) on a finishing machine.  There's a gear shop in Delta the buys every 36" (or larger)  shaper that hey can get their hands on.  Their indexing system is their own design and is fitted to every machine they commission.   They use them 24 hours a day, 5 days a week. It is the fastest way to cut millions of gears from blanks.  That shop provides the automotive industry 40 million gears per year (!!)...  They have between 6 and 10 shapers running at a time.


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## historicalarms (May 9, 2019)

Never thought about the "dovetail" cutting with a shaper before...sure would beat the last 4 I cut with a hacksaw & 2 files.


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## Tom Kitta (May 9, 2019)

How about metal bending with a shaper? 




Bet it would be somewhat difficult with a milling machine. With a large shaper you can basically use it as a metal forming machine / stamper.


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## CalgaryPT (May 10, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> How about metal bending with a shaper?



Aside from the obvious fire precautions of working with a forge in a wooden shop, the amount of time it takes to heat the metal, the number of operations required, and the setup needed—I watched this and wondered why would anyone in their right mind want to do this when modern hydraulic benders can do the same operation more economically in seconds? Actually, for the piece in the vid, you're right on the cusp of being able to do this manually anyways.

My next thought was: THAT IS SO COOL. I WANT TO DO THAT TOO.


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## Tom Kitta (May 10, 2019)

CalgaryPT said:


> My next thought was: THAT IS SO COOL. I WANT TO DO THAT TOO.



Notice that the shop has all line shafts - it is setup as a shop was more then 100 years ago. Thus they probably cannot all of a sudden add modern hydraulic bender. They can sell the "authentic" experience of a piece made same way today as it would have been made before WWI. 

They show the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft  work at 3:16 

To me it looks pre-1900 design.


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## Tom Kitta (May 13, 2019)

Cut few chips with it already. Still need to remove more of the blue paint. Previous guy painted all the metal surfaces blue - including all ways and the whole box.

I also had to clean up the clapper box so it now claps. 

I found out that with a slow speed (32 probably actually 38) the surface finish is that of a very fine file - non-slip. If I increase the speed to 57 (probably actually 68 as the motor is rated for 50Hz). The surface is smooth but not phenomenal with a 0.003 advance per stroke. 

Still have to figure out many things about it. Make a handle to close the belt drive so its not duck tape closure.


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## Bofobo (May 13, 2019)

Beauty machine


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## johnnielsen (May 24, 2019)

Shapers can be a versatile machine tool. I used one for bending millions of pieces of stainless wire (3/32" to 3/8") when I made refractory anchors (14" stroke). I have heard of people using them as surface grinders also. They could also be used for punching and forming light materials.


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## Everett (Jul 4, 2019)

Well, it's been a while since posting pictures of this machine, so here goes.  After some delays due to company coming and going, 4 different viruses and colds infecting my family in the last 2 months, and just life in general, progress on the shaper work has been slow.

Found during disassembly that this old girl has seen some serious hurt in her lifetime, with lots of parts having been brazed back together.  Also found numerous parts that need repair/replacing, and the unit needed paint removal down to the casting over most of it.  I've been documenting it on my YouTube channel but understand that not everyone likes YouTube so figured to just share a few pictures of how things have been coming.

One thing about being made in the UK is that it's using all Whitworth and British Association fasteners, so had to buy some tools to be able to work on it . . . oh darn! 








Base, ram and various parts after stripping paint and rust







Feet made from 5/8" ready rod and hockey pucks, and the resulting disaster on the lathe




The internal gear train disassembled




Having to machine the lever arm internal slides to parallel again




Various hardware needing remaking for the lever arm drive




Reassembling the cross slide/elevation assembly







Where it's at now as far as reassembly, in a shiny "Candy Apple Gray"

Still lots to go for repair/remaking parts, but it is starting to come together.  Still need some various fasteners, making a motor pulley, mount the motor, repair the table feed mechanism parts, and wire it up to modern safety standards.  Looking forward to making chips with it but don't want to just slap it together.  I'm hoping when it's done it will outlast me and my son can still use it when he's old.

Will update again when it's up and running!


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## PeterT (Jul 4, 2019)

Nice progress. I always enjoy seeing older machines come back to their former glory with TLC. The UK threads must have been extra 'fun'.


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## Crankit (Jul 4, 2019)

The Whitworth and BA thread pitches are a pain...where did you get your tooling? I've got a Boxford lathe that needed a few fasteners


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## trlvn (Jul 5, 2019)

Really enjoying your Youtube videos--keep up the good work!  You are right about the injuries your shaper has suffered in the past.  At times, it looks like some of the parts are more braze than original material!

Hope you get to make chips with it soon.

Craig


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## Tom Kitta (Jul 5, 2019)

Not just the British make fun threads - did you ever heard about 1/2-12? Not 1/2-13, BUT 1/2-12? That is the standard thread in B-P clones made in Taiwan. They call it... M1/2 thread ... It is for all of their handles (table locks). Had to make in on the lathe.


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## Everett (Jul 5, 2019)

Thanks Peter, it's been fun, and at times frustrating when I mess something up and have to redo it, but I want to do the best job on it I can at this point in what I have for tools and skills.  I'm no Keith Rucker, let me tell you . . .

Crankit, I got my wrenches, sockets, and Whitworth tap/die set from an Amazon store called AB Tools, in the UK.  The British Association tap/die set came from somewhere in India off eBay, and took over two weeks after the ETA to get here, but they did arrive.  At least now if I ever have to work on an old British car I've got the tools for it, lol.

And thanks Craig, glad you like the videos - it's always a challenge to balance the action parts with descriptions and contexts of parts and processes.  And yes, I was astounded to see how much bronze was melted on to cast iron parts in this thing . . . must have been one horrendous crash . . . I want to use it but also want it complete before I do, for both safety and functional reasons.

Tom, I hear you about the 1/2-12 thread - that is the thread on the ends of the quill handles on my Craftex mill-drill.  The knobs were missing from factory and they didn't want to help me, so I have to make knobs for it.  It's on the list, but just haven't gotten to it, lol.  Once the shaper is done I can pick up on the ball turners my buddy Eldon and I are collaborating on, and those will be the first ones turned.  Just need more shop time . . .
Oh, and have you ever played with British Association threads?  Some of the small parts on the shaper use those.  Had to get a BA tap/die set too.


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## trlvn (Jul 5, 2019)

Everett said:


> 1/2-12 thread - that is the thread on the ends of the quill handles on my Craftex mill-drill. The knobs were missing from factory and they didn't want to help me, so I have to make knobs for it. It's on the list, but just haven't gotten to it,



I have a 1/2-12 tapered tap amongst a bunch of "NS" taps (auction box lot).  If you want to borrow it, just PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail.  Somehow, I don't expect to need it in the immediate future! 

Craig
Several other oddballs as well like 1/2-27, 5/8-24 and 5/8-27.  #6-48, #8-40, ...  Plus some BA and BSF.


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## historicalarms (Jul 6, 2019)

Tom Kitta said:


> Not just the British make fun threads - did you ever heard about 1/2-12? Not 1/2-13, BUT 1/2-12? That is the standard thread in B-P clones made in Taiwan. They call it... M1/2 thread ... It is for all of their handles (table locks). Had to make in on the lathe.


  I believe the draw bar that came with my mill-drill is 1/2-12...none of the taper adapter's I have purchased since are usable with it.


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## historicalarms (Jul 6, 2019)

trlvn said:


> I have a 1/2-12 tapered tap amongst a bunch of "NS" taps (auction box lot).  If you want to borrow it, just PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail.  Somehow, I don't expect to need it in the immediate future!
> 
> Craig
> Several other oddballs as well like 1/2-27, 5/8-24 and 5/8-27.  #6-48, #8-40, ...  Plus some BA and BSF.



    sound like they came from a gunsmith shop, most of those are used extensively in that part of the trade.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 30, 2019)

A use often mentioned is peeling off rust and scale before using an expensive end mill on it.


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