# 10-11 inch lathes -- Precision Matthews, Modern Tool



## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

Hi:

I'm edging toward upgrading from my tiny, beat-up Atlas 618 lathe and I thought I'd ask for input about new lathes.  Whatever I choose has to go down the basement stairs, including a 90 degree corner, and into the available space which is ideally 51 inches or maximally about 60 inches.

Most everything I've read indicates that I'd be happy with a Precision Matthews 10" lathe.  Probably the PM-1030V:



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1022v-pm-1030v/
		


The only negatives are the price (I'm waiting for a shipping quote) and that delivery would be late May 2022--at the earliest.

However, I've contact Modern Tool Ltd (Newmarket office) and they have an 11 X 26 offering that might fit the bill.  In stock; in Ontario.  I've requested some more information, including current pricing, but I wondered if anyone here has hands-on experience?  









						MODERN 11" Swing, 26" Between CentersCQ6128X660A LATHE - Modern Tool Ltd.
					

MODERN CQ6128X660A LATHE, 11" Swing, 26" Between Centers




					www.moderntool.com
				




The Modern CQ6 seems to have most of the basic features.  11" swing, 6.5 over the compound.  Includes 3 and 4-jaw chucks plus steady and follow rests.  A deficiency seems to be that it only has 6 speeds although it ranges from 150 rpm to 2400.  It would be nice to have more choices especially in the lower end.

There is some stuff I can't figure out from the website:
* Does it have power cross-feed?
* Does the chuck have a standard mount or is it some Chinese oddball?
* Are the lead and cross feed screws metric or imperial?  (IE does one rotation of the cross-feed equal 0.100 or something else?)
* The web page says it has a 4-way tool post but the photo clearly shows a QCTP.  Which is it?

I've pretty much ruled out the Busybee and King Canada 10" lathes due to the 22 inches between centres.  That just seems too limiting.  Also, they just seem to be lower-rung Asian production; especially compared to the Precision Matthews offering.

Any other suggestions that I should look at?  I have got an eye out for a good used lathe but the price/value equation seems to have flipped on its head recently!

Thanks,

Craig in Oakville


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## eotrfish (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> There is some stuff I can't figure out from the website:
> * Does it have power cross-feed?
> * Does the chuck have a standard mount or is it some Chinese oddball?



Craig

The Modern CQ6 does not appear to have power cross-feed and the chuck mount does look like some Chinese oddball.



trlvn said:


> Most everything I've read indicates that I'd be happy with a Precision Matthews 10" lathe. Probably the PM-1030V:



I know that the price of the PM 1127 VF LB is higher than the PM 1030V but I think you will quickly become disillusioned with the bolt-on chuck mount.

The PM 1127 VF LB 
- has a D1-4 spindle which is infinitely quicker and more user friendly for chuck changes
- has seperate drive shaft so you don't wear out the lead screw and/or half nuts for normal turning
- has a 1.5" spindle bore

The  PM 1127 VF LB is mechanically essentially a clone of the EMCO MAXIMAT SUPER 11.  I've moved my Super 11 up and down basement stairs 3 times with no problems.


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## David_R8 (Mar 21, 2022)

@trlvn doesn't Quinn (Blondihacks) use a PM-1030?
Looks plenty capable to me.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

@eotrfish Thanks.  I'll have a look at the PM-1127 but I think it was quite a bit more money.  Plus the increased length would mean that I'd have to put it in a much less desirable position in the shop.  

@David_R8 Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what she has.  She did a video on choosing a import lathe that I found extremely helpful.  I've basically made a feature checklist out of the points she mentioned!

Both Precision Matthews and Modern Tool (MdT) got back to me promptly.  I need to sit down and digest what I got from them.  The starting point is that the PM is USD $3,762 delivered or about CAD $4,740.

The MdT 11X26 is CAD $3,485 including the stand (that I don't need) but not a QCTP.  From the manual the MdT machine has both native inch and metric versions.  I've asked them to clarify what they are selling.

Major differences:
Swing: MdT +1 inch on PM
Power cross-feed: PM yes, MdT no
Turning speeds: PM continuous, MdT only 6

At first look, that is a lot more money for the Precision Matthews machine.  Is it worth it?  Hmmm...

Craig
(Why, yes, I do have Scottish ancestors and I did inherit a wide cheap streak from them!)


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## David_R8 (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> @eotrfish Thanks.  I'll have a look at the PM-1127 but I think it was quite a bit more money.  Plus the increased length would mean that I'd have to put it in a much less desirable position in the shop.
> 
> @David_R8 Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what she has.  She did a video on choosing a import lathe that I found extremely helpful.  I've basically made a feature checklist out of the points she mentioned!
> 
> ...


IMHO the power crossfeed and continuously variable spindle speed is worth the money. Also, I would bet that there are more PM10-30s in the world so the user base will be greater which translates to more tips and tricks.


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## SomeGuy (Mar 21, 2022)

FYI, the PM-1127 is very similar to the Craftex CX-701...there are differences that lean in the PM favour of course, but just as a reference point.


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## YotaBota (Mar 21, 2022)

$1,000 USD for shipping the PM-1030, have you thought about a road trip? The net says it's about a 5 hour drive depending on conditions and how you drive. Might make the PM-1127 doable if it has more of what you want.


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## Rauce (Mar 21, 2022)

I hadn’t realized until looking at the manual but the PM1030 has a keyed leadscrew/worm gear arrangement so that powerfeed operation doesn’t wear the threads. Not sure how smooth it is to engage/disengage though. 

The other downside of the PM1030 vs. The 1127 is that it requires gear changes to switch from fine feeds to coarse feeds to threading.


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

Knowing the features I want in a lathe,  and your space constraints, the PM1127 would be a decent machine. D1-4, 1.5" bore, power feed shaft, etc.


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## DPittman (Mar 21, 2022)

I have the Busy Bee 10x22 version and don't believe there is much if any difference between it and the PM version.  Although I often wish I had gone with the bigger brother 11/12 x 27 lathe.  I just couldn't afford the extra cost and my bench space is at a bit of a premium.

I too upgraded from an Altlas 618 and consider my 10x22 lathe a wonderful upgrade and really like it for the most part.  It does have power cross feed and an odd chuck mount but it isn't all that bad really. The variable speed is great.   I know the current 10x22 BB lathes have a larger thru spindle hole than mine and I think the PM version always did.
While no doubt PM warranty and service will be superior to the almost non existent BB support, I think I'd consider the lathes themselves equal.  How much is warranty and service worth?


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## PeterT (Mar 21, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I hadn’t realized until looking at the manual but the PM1030 has a keyed leadscrew/worm gear arrangement so that powerfeed operation doesn’t wear the threads. Not sure how smooth it is to engage/disengage though.


This keyed power feed shaft (independent of the screw thread) is a very common way to transmit power from the headstock gear train to travers the carriage & cross slide. Even much bigger lathes. The gear ratio is quite low because of the worm gear, so slipping in & out is quite smooth & effortless. The wear over time primarily occurs on the brass type alloy worm gear.


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

PeterT said:


> This keyed power feed shaft (independent of the screw thread) is a very common way to transmit power from the headstock gear train to travers the carriage & cross slide. Even much bigger lathes. The gear ratio is quite low because of the worm gear, so slipping in & out is quite smooth & effortless. The wear over time primarily occurs on the brass type alloy worm gear.


I have never seen one with a slipping clutch though, which is a bit of a disadvantage compared to a machine with a dedicated feed rod. On a clutched feed rod, you can set a carriage stop to feed up to a shoulder, repeatedly, the carriage stops, clutch slips until you disengage feed. Very handy feature.  Also handy in crash situations to protect the gear train. Of course the leadscrew should have a shear pin to do the same....


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## Rauce (Mar 21, 2022)

PeterT said:


> This keyed power feed shaft (independent of the screw thread) is a very common way to transmit power from the headstock gear train to travers the carriage & cross slide. Even much bigger lathes. The gear ratio is quite low because of the worm gear, so slipping in & out is quite smooth & effortless. The wear over time primarily occurs on the brass type alloy worm gear.


What I hadn’t realized that there were small lathes that key the lead screw (with no seperate feed shaft) so that the leadscrew does double duty. I’d always assumed that any small lathe with just a leadscrew relied on a half nut for power feed. 

There is a very large lathe at my work that has a keyed lead screw that serves both purposes like that. Makes sense in that scenario I guess, that leadscrew is 3TPI and at least 3” in diameter.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I hadn’t realized until looking at the manual but the PM1030 has a keyed leadscrew/worm gear arrangement so that powerfeed operation doesn’t wear the threads. Not sure how smooth it is to engage/disengage though.
> 
> The other downside of the PM1030 vs. The 1127 is that it requires gear changes to switch from fine feeds to coarse feeds to threading.


Hi Rauce:

Both the PM1030V and the Modern Tool 11X26 require changing gears to go between feeding and threading.  The PM has a 3-position selector to choose slow-med-fast feeds.  The Modern has two 3-position selectors that give 9 feed rates.

Craig


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## 140mower (Mar 21, 2022)

South Bend is one of those makers with the keyed feedscrew in the 9a and 9b, as well as the 10k.  But the 9c (the most basic machine) uses the lead screw and has no power cross feed.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

Rauce said:


> What I hadn’t realized that there were small lathes that key the lead screw (with no seperate feed shaft) so that the leadscrew does double duty. I’d always assumed that any small lathe with just a leadscrew relied on a half nut for power feed.
> 
> There is a very large lathe at my work that has a keyed lead screw that serves both purposes like that. Makes sense in that scenario I guess, that leadscrew is 3TPI and at least 3” in diameter.


The Blondihacks video mentioned earlier does a good job of explaining this.

I think it is pretty clever.  It means that the force needed for feeding is transmitted through a fairly large key.  So much less wear-n-tear on the nut or threads.

Craig


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## PeterT (Mar 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> I have never seen one with a slipping clutch though, which is a bit of a disadvantage compared to a machine with a dedicated feed rod. On a clutched feed rod, you can set a carriage stop to feed up to a shoulder, repeatedly, the carriage stops, clutch slips until you disengage feed. Very handy feature.  Also handy in crash situations to protect the gear train. Of course the leadscrew should have a shear pin to do the same....


My Taiwan 14x40 has a rudimentary clutch on PF rod (only) which I see on similar makes of lathes. I'd call it more of an 'audible' safety feature, although I hear some people do trust it to run to a stop, which I don't. Its basically a split housing with the PF shaft on one side & headstock output on the other. It contains sprung bearing balls sitting in a vee groove. When torque is exceeded, the balls come out of the vee detent groove allowing the PF rod to spin free with a loud rackety-rack sound. There is also a shear pin if that fails. (There is only a shear pin on the threading rod).

I'd love a lathe with a dedicated disengage like for threading. Takes the drama out of approaching a shoulder & upside down tools going in reverse & all that rigmarole. More parts = more money. But they do exit.


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

PeterT said:


> My Taiwan 14x40 has a rudimentary clutch on PF rod (only) which I see on similar makes of lathes. I'd call it more of an 'audible' safety feature, although I hear some people do trust it to run to a stop, which I don't. Its basically a split housing with the PF shaft on one side & headstock output on the other. It contains sprung bearing balls sitting in a vee groove. When torque is exceeded, the balls come out of the vee groove detent & make a loud rackety-rack sound. There is also a shear pin if that fails. (There is only a shear pin on the threading rod).
> 
> I'd love a lathe with a dedicated disengage like for threading. Takes the drama out of approaching a shoulder & upside down tools going in reverse & all that rigmarole. More parts = more money. But they do exit.



My Emco has a similar clutch on the feed rod, and it works very well with the carriage stop. Handy for making multiple parts to the same dimensions, or multiple passes, ie large step in the work piece. It is the same, only a shear pin on the leadscrew. On my SM1660, it has threading stops for threading into a shoulder. Along with leadscrew reverse for threading.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> $1,000 USD for shipping the PM-1030, have you thought about a road trip? The net says it's about a 5 hour drive depending on conditions and how you drive. Might make the PM-1127 doable if it has more of what you want.


No, the shipping quote is USD $389 for trucking plus $79 lift gate service.  I would probably go with the lift gate since it isn't that much.  The killer is the 1.265 exchange rate right now.

From here in Oakville, the Maps app says 4.5 hours driving.  A 9 hour round trip is doable but I'd have to check closely about whether it would fit in my vehicle.  Hmmm

Craig


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## Rauce (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Hi Rauce:
> 
> Both the PM1030V and the Modern Tool 11X26 require changing gears to go between feeding and threading.  The PM has a 3-position selector to choose slow-med-fast feeds.  The Modern has two 3-position selectors that give 9 feed rates.
> 
> Craig


I was referring to the PM1127 but that was a mistake, I see it also requires change gears same as the 1030. The one of I was thinking of was the PM1228, which has all feeds and thread pitches available from the gear selector… and is much more expensive.


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## John Conroy (Mar 21, 2022)

With gas nearing $2 per liter I'm  not sure you could make the drive on $500 worth of fuel.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> With gas nearing $2 per liter I'm  not sure you could make the drive on $500 worth of fuel.


It would be a bit under 1,000 km round trip and with all highway driving I think I can get 700+ km out of tank (60 litres?).  Plus I'd get to fill up on cheap gas Stateside!

Craig


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## Chicken lights (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> It would be a bit under 1,000 km round trip and with all highway driving I think I can get 700+ km out of tank (60 litres?).  Plus I'd get to fill up on cheap gas Stateside!
> 
> Craig


I get around 2000 km for about 200 gallons


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## YotaBota (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> No, the shipping quote is USD $389 for trucking plus $79 lift gate service. I would probably go with the lift gate since it isn't that much. The killer is the 1.265 exchange rate right now.


I was looking at the price of the lathe on the web site and the price they quoted shipped. Agree on the exchange, I was looking at a Glacern vice but by the time it ended up in my hands it was going to be pretty much double the US price.


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## trlvn (Mar 21, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I get around 2000 km for about 200 gallons


I would get amazing mileage if I park mine on the back of yours and let you do the driving!

Craig


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## YotaBota (Mar 21, 2022)

You'd probably have to buy him lunch and then he'd make you listen to Gene Tracy on 8Track tape.


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## DPittman (Mar 21, 2022)

trlvn said:


> I would get amazing mileage if I park mine on the back of yours and let you do the driving!
> 
> Craig


It sounds like you already get pretty good mileage (32mpg) unless that just with a tiny car?


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## Chicken lights (Mar 21, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> You'd probably have to buy him lunch and then he'd make you listen to Gene Tracy on 8Track tape.


hey now we have a CD player and started installing the subwoofer into this truck 

we be bumpin’ soon


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

CD Player = 8 track these days


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

@PeterT Youtube is watching me. This came up in my feed:






Genius!


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## PeterT (Mar 21, 2022)

@Darren , yes I have seen that vid. Very ingenious. Never underestimate the power of a crazy hobbyist LOL. I like that principle more than the tool retractor type.
Side note, my friend completed the Clough42 ELS (Electronic Lead Screw) & that thing is awesome. Whatever thread you can think of, imperial, metric, watchmaker... it can do with push of a program button.


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## DPittman (Mar 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> @PeterT Youtube is watching me. This came up in my feed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you seen the Jim Schroeder adaptation of Graham Meek clutch fitted to his Grizzly 10x22 lathe?  It's pretty cool.


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## Darren (Mar 21, 2022)

PeterT said:


> @Darren , yes I have seen that vid. Very ingenious. Never underestimate the power of a crazy hobbyist LOL. I like that principle more than the tool retractor type.
> Side note, my friend completed the Clough42 ELS (Electronic Lead Screw) & that thing is awesome. Whatever thread you can think of, imperial, metric, watchmaker... it can do with push of a program button.


 Thats on my Bucket list too, but i'm arguing with myself about it. I like the rocketronics 2 axis ELS as it can turn tapers and spheres too. Its almost full CNC though.


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## calgaryguy (Mar 22, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I hadn’t realized until looking at the manual but the PM1030 has a keyed leadscrew/worm gear arrangement so that powerfeed operation doesn’t wear the threads. Not sure how smooth it is to engage/disengage though.



Same as my recently acquired 9" Utilathe - and I didnt realize this was the case until i diassembled the apron and quick change gear box for cleaning and inspection. Gave me some good insight into how it all works internally.


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## ShawnR (Mar 22, 2022)

I stumbled across this thread on another forum. Shows the Precision Matthews warehouse. Thought it was interesting. 









						A look inside Precision Matthews warehouse February 10, 2020
					

I have people ask all the time about our company and machine stock, saying they’ve heard we only order a couple machines at a time as needed and don’t really stock things, or just general questions about if we will be around to support customers in the future.  Well I was walking around the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 22, 2022)

I often wonder how good a Grizzly South Bend really is given the price.  








						Heavy 10 10" x 30" Gearhead Lathe at Grizzly.com
					

<h1>SB1007 Heavy 10 Gearhead Lathe</h1> <h2>No metal lathe has been as popular or as iconic as a Heavy 10.</h2> <p>The Heavy 10 10" X 30" is a modern variation of the classic South Bend lathe and is known worldwide for its reliability and exceptional accuracy. <p>Thick castings, heavy weight...




					www.grizzly.com
				




And as far as speeds to, get a 3phase and VFD or change to a Bergerda AC Servo to get full range speeds with torque.   I have a simple AC 3 Phase and 1HP VFD on my South Bend Heavy 10L.  No real complaints.


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## PeterT (Mar 22, 2022)

Re the Grizzly 10K US dollars plus shipping & other fees is a lot of money for a 10x30 lathe even if it does have VFD-d power. The rest of it looks like a basic offshore lathe.
I know prices have probably changed since a couple years ago but Modern was selling their  C0636A 14x40 for $7500 CDN equipped as shown, delivered to your (Calgary)door.


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 22, 2022)

Totally agree.  I don't think I'd buy one of the ones from Grizzly even if they are closer to Vancouver Island.


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## Susquatch (Mar 22, 2022)

I was told that the South Bend company was purchased by Grizzly and production was moved from the USA to the orient. Not sure if that is true.


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I was told that the South Bend company was purchased by Grizzly and production was moved from the USA to the orient. Not sure if that is true.


Yes. That's what was reported on the SB group.  But they don't look anything like the original Heavy 10's for example.  Apparently the ways are better.  But I'm not sure what makes them worth $7K US more.  I guess one could ask Grizzly why to buy the 10x30 gear head over some other far east lathe.


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## Susquatch (Mar 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Yes. That's what was reported on the SB group.  But they don't look anything like the original Heavy 10's for example.  Apparently the ways are better.  But I'm not sure what makes them worth $7K US more.  I guess one could ask Grizzly why to buy the 10x30 gear head over some other far east lathe.



Good question. Grizzly sells their own Grizzly line of lathes and they also carry the higher priced South Bends. 

In any event, I'd prolly buy an older South Bend that was made in the USA. But I doubt I'd buy one made off shore for the same price.


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## trlvn (Mar 23, 2022)

In case any of you are wondering, a recap...

I want an upgraded lathe but I've got hard limits on the size (length) and weight (basement).  And I'm a cheapskate--it's in my nature!

The Modern Tool CQ6 (11X26) was in the running but I'm unhappy about the limited number of spindle speeds (6:  150/300/560/720/1200/2400).  Also, it lacks power-cross feed.  It comes with a 4-way toolpost and I would immediately want to upgrade to a QCTP.  Major plus is that it is available in stock and I could pick it up about 1 hour away.  Based on the negatives, though, I've pretty much eliminated this machine.

The Precision Matthews PM-1030V appears to be the best fit in a new machine.  It has power cross-feed and employs a variable-speed DC motor.  Includes an installed QCTP.  The major negative is that they don't know when they'll get another shipment.  They *think* a shipment should be coming in late May or June.  However, with the Covid surge in Asia, I'm concerned that that could slip.  Maybe a LOT.  To secure a place in line, I have to put down a 20% deposit and it is NON-REFUNDABLE unless they move the ETA out by more than 3 weeks.  But they haven't set an ETA yet--they are not committing to May/June at this point.  They _say_  they'll "work with the customer in extenuating circumstances" but that's not the way their policies are written.  I guess I've worked with lawyers too much!

Basically, if I give them a deposit, I am gambling that Covid isn't going to leave me sitting for months waiting for my new toy.  And for sure, a bunch of clean, tight, cheap lathes are going to pop up on the used market as soon as I lock into PM!  Realisticly though, finding just the right machine could take a very long time.  I've kept an eye open for at least 2 years with no obvious stars jumping out.

I'm going to mull this for another few days but I can't dither too long or PM will pre-sell the remaining machines in this shipment.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Mar 23, 2022)

You only live once Craig.

I wouldn't want any lathe with a minimum speed of 150rpm. Mine is 70 and I'm not happy with that.!   I think you are making the right call there. 

The rest of it is about getting what you want. Just decide what that is and then go for it.


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 23, 2022)

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape with respect to minimum speed from an AC line base spindle motor.  Either a VFD or better still an AC Servo will give you the closed loop speed control so as long as there's some way to set a fairly low base speed like 150 RPM then a servo can easily take that down to 1 RPM.  I'm running 1:1 with my mill and the 3000 RPM 1800W AC Servo can power tap at 10 RPM if i want.

Second.  Powered cross feed.  Important for manual lathes but not so much for CNC or even ones controlled with something like my ELS.   Now granted I haven't yet put a motor on my South Bend Cross Slide and if I do want to use power feed I use the mechanical coupling and have the Z axis carriage lead screw motor drive it.   And my South Bend has a taper attachment so there's no major motivation yet to do much more.  So I'm presenting an idea but not using it on my South Bend.

But my Gingery Lathe has stepper motors on both axis.   So power cross feed is there.  And if I swap the spindle to some kind of servo then the future can see the spindle speed varying depending on the X axis position enabling a constant surface speed with better facing quality.

Here's a very old poor quality video of my ELS running my Gingery sharpening a tool bit.  It really just was an exercise.  I don't normally do it this way.
ELS Grinding Example

Anyway, converting a lathe or mill to have steppers or servos is so cheap nowadays that it should probably be on everyone's list.


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## Susquatch (Mar 23, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I wouldn't get too bent out of shape with respect to minimum speed from an AC line base spindle motor.  Either a VFD or better still an AC Servo will give you the closed loop speed control so as long as there's some way to set a fairly low base speed like 150 RPM then a servo can easily take that down to 1 RPM.  I'm running 1:1 with my mill and the 3000 RPM 1800W AC Servo can power tap at 10 RPM if i want.
> 
> Second.  Powered cross feed.  Important for manual lathes but not so much for CNC or even ones controlled with something like my ELS.   Now granted I haven't yet put a motor on my South Bend Cross Slide and if I do want to use power feed I use the mechanical coupling and have the Z axis carriage lead screw motor drive it.   And my South Bend has a taper attachment so there's no major motivation yet to do much more.  So I'm presenting an idea but not using it on my South Bend.
> 
> ...



I may get there some day, but for now I'm just old fashioned and I like things old school. No cnc or steppers on my list just yet. 

But, high on my ToDo list is a 3phase motor and vfd for my lathe so I can run it at 50rpm. 

So all that said, @trlvn is buying a new lathe. In this day and age, with so much variety out there right off the shelf, I can't see buying something less than I'd want brand new and then modifying the motor system. Then again, I'm even  younger than Craig...... LOL!


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## Rauce (Mar 23, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I wouldn't get too bent out of shape with respect to minimum speed from an AC line base spindle motor.  Either a VFD or better still an AC Servo will give you the closed loop speed control so as long as there's some way to set a fairly low base speed like 150 RPM then a servo can easily take that down to 1 RPM.  I'm running 1:1 with my mill and the 3000 RPM 1800W AC Servo can power tap at 10 RPM if i want.
> 
> Second.  Powered cross feed.  Important for manual lathes but not so much for CNC or even ones controlled with something like my ELS.   Now granted I haven't yet put a motor on my South Bend Cross Slide and if I do want to use power feed I use the mechanical coupling and have the Z axis carriage lead screw motor drive it.   And my South Bend has a taper attachment so there's no major motivation yet to do much more.  So I'm presenting an idea but not using it on my South Bend.
> 
> ...


It looks like an AC servo as a spindle motor could be similar in cost to an AC induction motor and VFD. How would you control an AC servo if the application is a manual lathe?


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 23, 2022)

Rauce said:


> It looks like an AC servo as a spindle motor could be similar in cost to an AC induction motor and VFD. How would you control an AC servo if the application is a manual lathe?


The Bergerda AC Servo I have has a 0-10V input just like a VFD.  In fact, before I had the second BoB connected on the Mill I had a small Far East Pulse to Voltage module for 0V-10V to turn it.

See the attached pin out.

The keypad on the controller can also be told an RPM and then you can use an input to switch it on/off.

And you are right.  I had a 2HP single phase motor on the mill.  I looked around for a 3phase motor that would fit and a decent 2HP VFD which would then be run closed loop with the spindle encoder.  Price was higher for that combination than the Bergerda since I also bought a couple of stepper drivers from them at the same time.   The killer from Bergerda is shipping.  They ship FedEx, tracked and that ends up costing.  But even with that it was less than the AC 3 phase and I really like it.

It was major scary the first time I did power tapping with LinuxCNC.  But so cool.


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## trlvn (Mar 23, 2022)

So I've muddied the waters again--I went to Busybee just to be sure that I wasn't interested in their offerings.  Instead, the CX706 (10 X 22) is now in contention.  Early on, I excluded it based on the 22 inch length and (I thought) lack of power cross-feed.  But it does have power cross-feed and the 22 inch length doesn't look _that_ short in person.  When I've been limited in the past, it is mainly because my little lathe only has a 1/2" through hole.  

It is almost identical to the Precision Matthews PM-1030V except for the between-centres length (obviously) and lacking a QCTP.  Both even have T-slots on the cross slide.  The CX706 must come with extra change gears as it has many more options for both imperial and metric threading than the PM-1030V.  Both go from 8 to 80 tpi but the BB has 37 options v. only 13 for the PM.  Not a big deal but I thought that was odd.

The kicker is that the Busybee CX706 is on sale for $500 off: $3,099.  The equivalent size PM is USD 2,799 or about CAD 3,520.  Even if I spend $250 or so on the QCTP, I'm ahead by a couple hundred dollars.  The CX706 is also not in stock currently but they say that they expect a shipment by mid-April.  They seem much more definite about it than PM. 

An internet search did not turn up many problems specific to the CX706.  One guy had his nearly-new lathe stop in the middle of using it.  It turned out to be a connection that separated on a spade lug.  Not a big deal.   If I did have a problem, BB's head office is 60 minutes away while PM is 4.5 hours.

I'm now leaning towards the CX706.

Craig
(BTW, the King Canada 10X22 is more money and does not have power cross-feed.)


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## David_R8 (Mar 23, 2022)

@trlvn
You've seen this:




And this?


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 23, 2022)

trlvn said:


> So I've muddied the waters again--I went to Busybee ...
> 
> I'm now leaning towards the CX706.
> 
> ...


I've been a fan of Busy Bee and have their 3:1 sheet metal tool, corner notcher, 3 Ton Press and a bunch of tooling for the mill etc.  Surfaceplaner came from King Canada.  Gearbox developed a leak due to pin holes in the casting.  They sent me a new one with bearings and seals.  I had to rebuild it with the gears from mine.  Their product on the west coast is distributed through KMS Tools.


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 23, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> Really must visit one of these days.


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## trlvn (Mar 23, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> @trlvn
> You've seen this:
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!  I had not seen those.  Interesting about switching the fuse for a breaker.  Sounds like a sensible upgrade.

There are a couple of good tidbits in the comments, too.

Craig


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## DPittman (Mar 23, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Thanks!  I had not seen those.  Interesting about switching the fuse for a breaker.  Sounds like a sensible upgrade.
> 
> There are a couple of good tidbits in the comments, too.
> 
> Craig


I had problems with my fuse holder on my BB 10x22 lathe.  It was  simply a flaky connection and was easy to fix in the end but I tested  every other electrical component  (and replaced many) before finally figuring that out tho.


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## Janger (Mar 23, 2022)

trlvn said:


> So I've muddied the waters again--I went to Busybee just to be sure that I wasn't interested in their offerings.  Instead, the CX706 (10 X 22) is now in contention.  Early on, I excluded it based on the 22 inch length and (I thought) lack of power cross-feed.  But it does have power cross-feed and the 22 inch length doesn't look _that_ short in person.  When I've been limited in the past, it is mainly because my little lathe only has a 1/2" through hole.
> 
> It is almost identical to the Precision Matthews PM-1030V except for the between-centres length (obviously) and lacking a QCTP.  Both even have T-slots on the cross slide.  The CX706 must come with extra change gears as it has many more options for both imperial and metric threading than the PM-1030V.  Both go from 8 to 80 tpi but the BB has 37 options v. only 13 for the PM.  Not a big deal but I thought that was odd.
> 
> ...



One thing to know about these BB (and king too I think) lathes is the gear changes are not convenient. There are a lot of gears 6? and very fussy to swap in and out. I just never did as it was too much. Another factor is the power feed is too fast even on its lowest setting to get a really good finish. Check that out so it’s not a surprise. Otherwise I really enjoyed mine before I got the 14x40.


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## Darren (Mar 23, 2022)

Keeping in mind that you are going from an Atlas 618 to whatever you choose, anything larger is going to be an upgrade, to some degree.  In general, for anyone upgrading in size, the majority of the cost is in the tooling. This is often overlooked. Myself, I have had many lathes, but mostly buying an selling until I had what I wanted.  After a few, I met my first love...my forever lathe was my Emco V10P. I collected every bit of tooling applicable - it had a 1.5"/8tpi threaded spindle. Eventually I had every chuck I could want, Faceplate, steady rest, follow rest, DRO, AXA QCTP with a pile of holders, 3/8" and 1/2" shank holders,  change gears for every thread, and so on...tons of $$ invested. It was a great lathe, but it wasn't super rigid. I could take a 0.0400 cut on mild steel before HP limited it, but it was very precise. I grew to hate the threaded spindle, after an incident...I think i posted about on here, and it was a bit small, and I wanted a 3 phase machine with a VFD.... I wanted its big sister, the Emco V13, and after years of searching, I finally found one.  I sold the V10, and started over retooling the V13. I have spent thousands, even though I kept several chucks from my V10p, but its my for sure forever lathe. I bought new backplates to fit the D1-4 nose,  new BXA qctp tool holders...got if fully tooled up, Brand new Ditron 3 axis DRO, etc. Spent thousands.....Then I found a very nice Monarch 10ee. The Holy Grail.....and it has a D1-3 spindle nose and now I have to start all over....If i keep it.

Moral of the story, since you are buying new, is to decide carefully. You have a lot of choices. It can be very costly to tool up a machine and then decide that its not quite what you want. The tooling is the expensive part, and it will change with the machine. Nevermind the hours of research/learning on a particular machine. You are way better off spending more up front to get the machine you will truly be happy with.

Also, In my opinion, I would not want to buy a NEW lathe if it didn't have a D1-x spindle, clutched feed shaft, and the option for a 3 phase motor, so I could install a VFD. That all can be had for not a lot more money, but it separates the toys from the real machines. Also, you have to think of resale value. There is no doubt that PM machines have a much higher resale value than Craftex, etc.

Just some rambling thoughts on the subject


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## trlvn (Mar 24, 2022)

Janger said:


> One thing to know about these BB (and king too I think) lathes is the gear changes are not convenient. There are a lot of gears 6? and very fussy to swap in and out. I just never did as it was too much. Another factor is the power feed is too fast even on its lowest setting to get a really good finish. Check that out so it’s not a surprise. Otherwise I really enjoyed mine before I got the 14x40.


What is the finest feed per revolution on bigger machines?  The BB CX706 gets down to 0.0025" per revolution.  My old Atlas 618 has a 0.0024" feed rate so almost exactly the same.  I almost always leave the 618 in that 0.0024" setting.  At least the CX706 has the 3-position feed selector so that I can have 0.0025", 0.005" and 0.010" feed rates at the touch of a control.

I am resigned to changing gears for threading.  Quinn (Blondihacks) made the point that on lathes in this class we are most often going to be threading with dies.  So changing gears once in a while to do a non-standard single-point thread is not that bad.  OTOH, it would be really nice to snag a good used lathe that includes a QCGB.  

Craig


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## trlvn (Mar 24, 2022)

Darren said:


> Just some rambling thoughts on the subject


Hey!  That's an accurate description of everything I've posted in this thread!  

If I had a ground-level shop, I think I would have a much easier time finding a used lathe in 12-14 inch range and even a 2,000 pound machine would not be out of the question.  (There was a Colchester Student advertised about an hour away just this week.)  Short of buying a new house, there is no good way to get around the constraints I've got now.  

To digress, don't ever take real estate advice from me.  We bought this house in 1989 at the very crest of the peak of the market then.  Between the time we signed the deal and took possession, it was clear that prices were falling.  At the trough, the value might have fallen 40%!!  It took nearly a decade to recover back to what we paid.  The housing market today looks to me a lot like the late 1980's.

Anyway, I knew that the 618 was not going to be my forever lathe so I didn't spend that much on tooling.  Lots of cheap HSS and an inexpensive QCTP that I should be able to resell.  The 618 has bigger problems than I realized  (bearings/spindle) and I want to get something that I don't have to fight all the time.  If something changes* in the next few years and I have a bigger ground-level shop, well, the CX706 might might make a nice companion to big newcomer!

Craig
* My wife wants a craft studio with lots of light; my daughter would like a couple of horses and I'd like a big standalone shop.  We can all dream!


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

trlvn said:


> What is the finest feed per revolution on bigger machines?  The BB CX706 gets down to 0.0025" per revolution.  My old Atlas 618 has a 0.0024" feed rate so almost exactly the same.  I almost always leave the 618 in that 0.0024" setting.  At least the CX706 has the 3-position feed selector so that I can have 0.0025", 0.005" and 0.010" feed rates at the touch of a control.
> 
> I am resigned to changing gears for threading.  Quinn (Blondihacks) made the point that on lathes in this class we are most often going to be threading with dies.  So changing gears once in a while to do a non-standard single-point thread is not that bad.  OTOH, it would be really nice to snag a good used lathe that includes a QCGB.
> 
> Craig



I agree with everything @Darren says. I've only been through one upgrade though. I doubt I'll ever do it again. I love my lathe. Easy to upgrade it to a 3ph motor and vfd too and that is in my long range plan. 

I have been through 3 mill upgrades though. Again, his advice is excellent. It has the ring and wisdom of experience. 

I do NOT AGREE WITH Blondihacks. I almost never thread with a die on my lathe. I always single point. And I do a lot of it! Good thing I love doing it! My only bitch is speed. I am unhappy at 70rpm. I'd love to be able to thread at 50rpm.  If you like your machine as much as I love mine, single point threading is a joy not a PIA.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

Only one additional point @trlvn - if you plan to do a lot of threading, get a proper threading Micrometer. They are AWESOME! They beat using threading wires all day every day! In my opinion, hunting for a dropped wire in a pile of swarf with shaky old hands and eyes that don't work very well any more just plain sucks. Mine is analog (I hate digital) but it has a selection of tip sizes to accomodate a few thread ranges.


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## DPittman (Mar 24, 2022)

Dreaming is not bad but don't let it keep you from enjoying what you have now.   I like the quote from Oprah Winfrey "Do what you have to until you can do what you want to"
For quite awhile I've always wished I had a bigger lathe and better tools, but have recently come to the conclusion that unless I win a lottery, that is not likely to happen.  My "stuff" got alot more enjoyable to use once I started to focus on what it could do instead of what it couldn't do.


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## DPittman (Mar 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> . Mine is analog (I hate digital)



 What is there to hate about digital?!


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Dreaming is not bad but don't let it keep you from enjoying what you have now.   I like the quote from Oprah Winfrey "Do what you have to until you can do what you want to"
> For quite awhile I've always wished I had a bigger lathe and better tools, but have recently come to the conclusion that unless I win a lottery, that is not likely to happen.  My "stuff" got alot more enjoyable to use once I started to focus on what it could do instead of what it couldn't do.



Well said! 

I have a few similar sayings I like:

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 

Never forget that there are other people all over the world who would give everything to have your worst day. 

There will always be someone who has more or better. Don't let that get in the way of enjoying what you have. 

Envy is the enemy of happiness. 

Don't waste your life wishing for tomorrow. It may never come. 

Happiness is a choice. Unhappiness is a bad choice. 

Prolly many many others. 

But again, very well said. I do love my lathe and I enjoy using it at every opportunity I get.


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## Rauce (Mar 24, 2022)

Batteries? Long term reliability?

I use mitutoyo digital calipers at work because they’re fast to read and if anything goes wrong with them my employer will replace them.

At home I almost exclusively use analog measuring tools. I have a 0-1” digital mic that is great but I have an analog one in the same size as a backup.

Re: threading, for anything under 1/2” I like to use a die on a tailstock die holder. I make a lot of a certain part with M10x1 threads. I sell these things so time is money and the die in the tailstock just makes it so quick and easy.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

DPittman said:


> What is there to hate about digital?!



Very deep subject. I've written here about it before. "Sometimes" digital can lie. Analog never lies. 

I did sensor technology and control systems for a large part of my career. At the heart of "almost" every digital system is an a/d converter which may or may not include either hardware or software programming. Far too many programmers are not system designers. They write software or design hardware control systems that do what they are told to make them do. But most have no clear understanding of what it really is that they are doing. 

Would you want a heart surgeon operating on you who read about how to do it in a book but never did one before? Well, this applies to engineers too. 

Most digital readouts depend on counting of some kind. They don't really measure distance or signal or any physical property like an analog system does. Instead, there is a circuit that does some kind of conversion and outputs pulses. Miss a pulse or count an extra one or introduce noise, and bingo - wrong answer. 

Trust is earned, not given. Human nature has evolved to fear the unknown and to mistrust once lied to one time. I have fundamentally learned to distrust digital. Just because you see a number on the screen doesn't mean it's right. 

I have learned to trust certain digital devices that have earned that trust. But I'm nowhere near ready to trust them completely. 

I'll give you a few real world examples. 

Weigh scales. I've tested literally hundreds of digital weigh scales. But I've yet to use one that gives reliable repeatable results. They are ALWAYS wrong. You can actually count on it! Even the very best ones routinely lie. On the other hand, a quality balance beam NEVER lies. 

RPM Readouts. Prolly a great example of something that is close enough, but almost never perfect. Only a few have real time capabilities, and those that do are often very sensitive to noise. 

Digital Calipers - I confess I like the Mitutoyo Digimatic Absolute Calipers. I have not been bitten yet, so trust is growing. But I do not trust any other ones I've used. Yet I do trust low cost manual ones. Nonetheless, even with good digital ones, my reference is always a good mechanical analog vernier. They never lie. 

Perhaps a good way to express my feelings about digital goes like this:

I fundamentally don't trust the media. Whenever I read about something where I actually know the facts, they are wrong. Why should I trust them when I don't know? And why do they insist on interpreting the facts for me?  I prefer to get my own interpretation. Same goes for digital. 

Digital Readouts are a lot like that. People trust them just like they trust the media, but I don't. 

I readily confess that digital readouts have come a very long way. And perhaps someday they will earn my trust. But for now, I prefer analog.

The jury is still out on the Ditron Digital Readout (DRO) I am installing on my mill. The convenience may win me over. But I am still wary. The manual documents several ways to correct them which include both linear and variable compensation. Merely reading about this made me nervous. From the gitgo I have been suspicious about how they work. I have not been able to find any reliable information. The best I can do is to speculate. They contain a magnetic strip which has a 2 mm pitch. While drilling the mounts, some swarf got on the scales and clearly shows the pitch. 






So how does this work? I can only speculate that the read head contains two coils that generate a phased output which in turn creates a digital pulse based on the amplitude of the two different signals and that the readout counts these pulses to generate a digital displacement reading. 

Any correction probably interpolates over the designated range. But even within the designated range, how accurate is it? Ditron claims the resolution of my scales is 1 micron. I can even display that resolution if I want. But quite honestly I seriously doubt their claim. I have mine set to imperial tenths and frankly, I'm even skeptical of that. 

So that's my story. I understand if others feel differently. In fact I even understand that others may be better off ignoring my sentiments. Ignorance is bliss. We can agree to disagree.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

Rauce said:


> for anything under 1/2” I like to use a die on a tailstock die holder. I make a lot of a certain part with M10x1 threads. I sell these things so time is money and the die in the tailstock just makes it so quick and easy.



Sometime when you are threading a few parts, I'd appreciate a photo or two. 

Regardless, I can certainly appreciate your perspective. Time is money.


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## Tom O (Mar 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Only one additional point @trlvn - if you plan to do a lot of threading, get a proper threading Micrometer. They are AWESOME! They beat using threading wires all day every day! In my opinion, hunting for a dropped wire in a pile of swarf with shaky old hands and eyes that don't work very well any more just plain sucks. Mine is analog (I hate digital) but it has a selection of tip sizes to accomodate a few thread ranges.


Well you could paint the ends of the wires with fluorescent paint so they stand out when dropped or use foam/styrofoam to hold all 3 wires so they don’t drop.


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## Susquatch (Mar 24, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Well you could paint the ends of the wires with fluorescent paint so they stand out when dropped or use foam/styrofoam to hold all 3 wires so they don’t drop.



Ya, and believe it or not, I actually did most of that. I even got some plastic holders that are designed to help fumble fingered old fools like me hold the wires better.

But if I would have known what I know now, I'd have just bought a thread Micrometer right up front and totally bipassed feeling like I'd really rather shove those dumb wires up my A__ than use them as intended. And while I'm at it, let's be honest here. It's one thing to use those wires for a 10 TPI thread, but it's quite another to use them for a 24 or 36 tpi thread with eyes and hands that can't see the thread let alone which groove the wires are in. A threading micrometer is just a plain pleasure to use through the whole range.


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## trlvn (Mar 25, 2022)

OK, I made a decision:  Busybee CX706.

I hope I don't regret it.  Mostly it is due to the wishy-washy estimate from Precision Matthews of 'late-May or June' that's I'm afraid is going to turn into a much longer wait.  Plus either the expense of having it shipped or the hassle of driving down to pick it up myself.  It certainly doesn't hurt that the  Busybee sale makes the machine a few hundred less than PM.

The CX706 is expected by mid-April and I've put down the minimum deposit.

Craig
[Don't look at Kijiji or Hibid.  Don't look at Kijiji or Hibid.  Don't look at Kijiji or Hibid.  Don't look at Kijiji or Hibid.  Don't look at Kijiji or Hibid. ...]


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## David_R8 (Mar 25, 2022)

trlvn said:


> OK, I made a decision:  Busybee CX706.
> 
> I hope I don't regret it.  Mostly it is due to the wishy-washy estimate from Precision Matthews of 'late=May or June' that's I'm afraid is going to turn into a much longer wait.  Plus either the expense of having it shipped or the hassle of driving down to pick it up myself.  It certainly doesn't hurt that the  Busybee sale makes the machine a few hundred less than PM.
> 
> ...


Hey Craig did you see this listing for a...


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## DPittman (Mar 25, 2022)

Congrats on making the decision.  I'm sure you will enjoy your new purchase if you put to rest all the other "could have been."  Enjoy for what it is...a new lathe within your budget and other constraints.   That might all change someday but for now you can feel good about your decision.  Cheers.


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## Susquatch (Mar 25, 2022)

trlvn said:


> OK, I made a decision:  Busybee CX706.
> 
> I hope I don't regret it.  Mostly it is due to the wishy-washy estimate from Precision Matthews of 'late-May or June' that's I'm afraid is going to turn into a much longer wait.  Plus either the expense of having it shipped or the hassle of driving down to pick it up myself.  It certainly doesn't hurt that the  Busybee sale makes the machine a few hundred less than PM.
> 
> ...



Hey, my dad used to say that a decision is what you have to make when you don't have enough info to make the answer obvious. So don't be afraid to make one. It's better than waiting forever for info that never comes. 

Besides, my son was just telling me that his company ordered 6 new dump trucks in January. The truck company just called them and cancelled their order. No idea when they can build them. Won't accept a new order till they know new delivery and new cost. That kind of behaviour is new to me. But it's happening everywhere now.


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## David_R8 (Mar 25, 2022)

In all seriousness Craig, congrats!


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## combustable herbage (Mar 26, 2022)

Congrats on the new purchase Craig its always nice to get something new and you will love the upgrade from your atlas which should get you a price on the market should you decide to sell it.


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 26, 2022)

Trlvn you are a bad influence. I ordered the same machine yesterday, based it on your research. It's all your fault.


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## Dusty (Mar 26, 2022)

Trlvn you are a bad influence.  I ordered the same machine yesterday, based it on your research.  

Is this for real?  Keep us posted on this!


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## trlvn (Mar 26, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Trlvn you are a bad influence. I ordered the same machine yesterday, based it on your research. It's all your fault.


Hey!  I was just blathering on the internet.  I never thought somebody would actually think I knew what I was saying!

Did they give you the same mid-April ETA?

Craig


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## Susquatch (Mar 26, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Hey!  I was just blathering on the internet.  I never thought somebody would actually think I knew what I was saying!
> 
> Did they give you the same mid-April ETA?
> 
> Craig



His is in stock....... . LMAO!


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## terry_g (Mar 26, 2022)

Some reading while you wait for delivery. Here is a link to the owner's manual: https://www.busybeetools.com/content/product_manuals/CX706.pdf


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## YotaBota (Mar 26, 2022)

Congrats to you both and hope they work well for you.
According to the BB website, Pickering has them in stock and we all know that websites don't lie. lol
"Hey Craig did you see this listing for a..." Evil,,,,,,just plain evil,,,,LOL


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## David_R8 (Mar 26, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Trlvn you are a bad influence. I ordered the same machine yesterday, based it on your research. It's all your fault.


Congrats 6.5!


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 26, 2022)

I didn't get a delivery date that i saw. Mine will also be going into the basement along side my mill/drill. 
 Thanks terry_g, i will look that over closely. 
 Trlvn blathering is still leading somebody astray.


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## Rauce (Mar 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Sometime when you are threading a few parts, I'd appreciate a photo or two.
> 
> Regardless, I can certainly appreciate your perspective. Time is money.


Here’s a picture of the die holder. Some machinist or tool maker made it ages ago and passed it on it on to someone who then sold it to me… like all the best tools in my experience. 

I lock the tailstock quill but leave the tailstock unlocked to the ways and put the machine in its lowest speed (~50rpm). I size the part about .005” under the nominal thread diameter. Once the die gets close to the end of the thread I turn the machine off and turn the chuck by hand to the shoulder then I put it in reverse to back it out. 

The part in question is an axle for converting a certain bicycle wheel for use on the velodrome. The wheel manufacturer no longer offers this particular conversion axle for sale. I made one for a friend, posted about it on a forum and have ended up making about 30 over the past 3 years.


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## PeterT (Mar 26, 2022)

Nice part. Good for you for filling a niche. I hope it brings in a few shekels & helps buy more tools.
What is the material of bike part?
If you find that certain alloys or (larger) thread size don't play nice with full threading on the the tailstock, another quasi-production method is to single point it to say 0.005" undersize of finished thread depth & then use the die to finish it off. That makes for clean consistent finished threads, easier on the die & minimizes thread measuring to final dimension.


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## Rauce (Mar 27, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Nice part. Good for you for filling a niche. I hope it brings in a few shekels & helps buy more tools.
> What is the material of bike part?
> If you find that certain alloys or (larger) thread size don't play nice with full threading on the the tailstock, another quasi-production method is to single point it to say 0.005" undersize of finished thread depth & then use the die to finish it off. That makes for clean consistent finished threads, easier on the die & minimizes thread measuring to final dimension.



I make them from 303 stainless which machines really nice. I’ve done single point followed by a die before as well. I can’t remember what it was for but I had to do a 1.75mm thread recently and that’s one metric pitch my lathe won’t do without a change gear I don’t have. I single point cut a 14tpi thread a bit oversize and then ran a 1.75 die over it.


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## Susquatch (Mar 27, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I make them from 303 stainless which machines really nice. I’ve done single point followed by a die before as well. I can’t remember what it was for but I had to do a 1.75mm thread recently and that’s one metric pitch my lathe won’t do without a change gear I don’t have. I single point cut a 14tpi thread a bit oversize and then ran a 1.75 die over it.



Very cool. Good on you for coming up with that solution. How did it turn out in the end?


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## Rauce (Mar 27, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Very cool. Good on you for coming up with that solution. How did it turn out in the end?


I remember what it was for now! I made a dummy axle for MTB frames that use a thru axle with M12x1.75 thread for installing the rear wheel. 

It came out good enough for the application.


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## Susquatch (Mar 27, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I remember what it was for now! I made a dummy axle for MTB frames that use a thru axle with M12x1.75 thread for installing the rear wheel.
> 
> It came out good enough for the application.



Looks GREAT to me! 

Do you remember approximately how complete the original thread was? Just a rough guess will do for my understanding. Eg 1/4,1/2, 3/4, 90%???


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## Rauce (Mar 27, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Looks GREAT to me!
> 
> Do you remember approximately how complete the original thread was? Just a rough guess will do for my understanding. Eg 1/4,1/2, 3/4, 90%???


I would guess about 80%. The material was 304 stainless and the 12x1.75 die I have is just a cheap one from a set so I wanted it to do as little work as possible. 

Thinking about this approach more, I think it would only work on a shorter section of thread. Eventually the difference between the pitch of the single point cut and the die (in this case 14tpi vs. 14.514tpi) would  result in an incomplete thread form.


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## Susquatch (Mar 27, 2022)

Rauce said:


> I would guess about 80%. The material was 304 stainless and the 12x1.75 die I have is just a cheap one from a set so I wanted it to do as little work as possible.
> 
> Thinking about this approach more, I think it would only work on a shorter section of thread. Eventually the difference between the pitch of the single point cut and the die (in this case 14tpi vs. 14.514tpi) would  result in an incomplete thread form.



I agree completely.

I once had a debate on this subject over the difference between 16tpi and metric 1.6.

The difference is indeed small.

Some people even claim that 1.6 is not a valid thread size. I argue that it is because I have thread gauges for it, it shows up as an option on my lathe setup, and I have at least one piece of equipment that has that thread in it.

The debate stems from how close the two are. But as you point out, they are only close for short threaded sections. That closeness slowly disappears as the thread length grows.

The issue is more serious though. Much more serious than most realize. If you put the two different threads together, they appear to fit, but as the joint is tightened, the threads begin to deform (as they should) that's all part of the torque equation that prevents joints from becoming loose and/or overstressed. In your case, this doesn't matter because you are actually cutting the proper thread to create the right stress/strain geometry. But for completed threads, it's a recipe for a future problem.


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## PaulL (Mar 27, 2022)

DPittman said:


> What is there to hate about digital?!


I have a cheap digital caliper.  It loves to reset its zero at random times.  Yes, I should throw it out.  I never had this problem with a vernier.


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## Susquatch (Mar 28, 2022)

plalonde said:


> I have a cheap digital caliper.  It loves to reset its zero at random times.  Yes, I should throw it out.  I never had this problem with a vernier.



The only digital caliper I own (and yes, I do own several) that has not lied to me (yet or that I know of) is my Mitutoyo Absolute Digimatic.

But it has its own problems. It has no auto-off. If I accidentally leave it on, it will be dead by the next time I go to use it.

@Dabbler has pointed out that it really never turns off anyway. The on/off button only turns off the display. But even that is significant.

They are pricy and there are many fakes out there. If you do buy one, I'd recommend buying from an authorized dealer (eg KBC Tools) and I'd also recommend buying a bulk package of batteries for it.

That all said, a vernier caliper NEVER lies and NEVER needs batteries.


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## Dabbler (Mar 28, 2022)

I started with a Mitutoyo vernier caliper for all my 'approximator' measurements.  

I now use digital exclusively, as I am very long sighted, and reading the fine lines needs a loupe or magnifying glass.  I can easily read my digital calipers.  However, if I want accuracy, it is mechanical micrometers all the way.


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Just got an Email from BB that my order has shipped. Do i do a happy dance now or wait till i get a call from the shipper. It will likely require me driving someplace to pick up the machine as most trucking outfits don't like farm locations.


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## David_R8 (Mar 30, 2022)

@6.5 Fan a small jig is acceptable till you get a call from the shipper. At which point go nuts!


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## Susquatch (Mar 30, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> @6.5 Fan a small jig is acceptable till you get a call from the shipper. At which point go nuts!



Sorry @6.5 Fan , I don't agree with @David_R8. 

Jigs are not warranted until it arrives at your farm. 

At that point, you are *required* to dance all around it in a perfect circle both ways. Please have the driver take a video and post it here so we can all laugh at you......  er, I mean help you celebrate!


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## Dabbler (Mar 30, 2022)

Oh - and I thought you guys were talking about machining jigs...   not dances...


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## trlvn (Mar 30, 2022)

Me practising:








Craig


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## Susquatch (Mar 30, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Me practising:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So...... Does your bride know you have been faking the knee injury all this time?


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Jeeez trlvn if i could move like that i would be a very happy man, not sure i could every make those moves.


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## trlvn (Mar 31, 2022)

6.5 Fan said:


> Jeeez trlvn if i could move like that i would be a very happy man, not sure i could every make those moves.


What?  I heard you taught John Travolta everything he knows!



Craig


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## 6.5 Fan (Apr 5, 2022)

Well no happy dance today, dirty bastich's shipped the live center i ordered. Email showed the whole order when they notified me of shipment.  Should have known better.


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## ShawnR (Apr 5, 2022)

trlvn said:


> OK, I made a decision:  Busybee CX706.
> 
> I hope I don't regret it.  Mostly it is due to the wishy-washy estimate from Precision Matthews of 'late-May or June' that's I'm afraid is going to turn into a much longer wait.  Plus either the expense of having it shipped or the hassle of driving down to pick it up myself.  It certainly doesn't hurt that the  Busybee sale makes the machine a few hundred less than PM.
> 
> ...



Congratulation Craig!


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## Gearhead88 (Apr 5, 2022)

Rauce said:


> Here’s a picture of the die holder. Some machinist or tool maker made it ages ago and passed it on it on to someone who then sold it to me… like all the best tools in my experience.
> 
> I lock the tailstock quill but leave the tailstock unlocked to the ways and put the machine in its lowest speed (~50rpm). I size the part about .005” under the nominal thread diameter. Once the die gets close to the end of the thread I turn the machine off and turn the chuck by hand to the shoulder then I put it in reverse to back it out.
> 
> The part in question is an axle for converting a certain bicycle wheel for use on the velodrome. The wheel manufacturer no longer offers this particular conversion axle for sale. I made one for a friend, posted about it on a forum and have ended up making about 30 over the past 3 years.


That looks like a miniature version of the axle that holds the wheel on a Harley sidecar


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## Modernmod (Aug 24, 2022)

trlvn said:


> OK, I made a decision:  Busybee CX706.
> 
> I hope I don't regret it.  Mostly it is due to the wishy-washy estimate from Precision Matthews of 'late-May or June' that's I'm afraid is going to turn into a much longer wait.  Plus either the expense of having it shipped or the hassle of driving down to pick it up myself.  It certainly doesn't hurt that the  Busybee sale makes the machine a few hundred less than PM.
> 
> ...


I am now occupying your boat, @trlvn 
Looking at purchasing my first metal lathe and also looking at the Busy Bee Craftex CX706 (10x22) ($3099 CDN) https:// www.busybeetools.com/products/lathe-10in-x22in-metal -with-digital-readout.html or should I consider the larger Craftex CX709 (13x24) for $3699 which includes a stand
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/metal-lathe -600mm-with-stand.html

The US equivalents are the Grizzly G0602 ($2250 USD) and Precision Matthews PM1022V lathe ($2899 USD).

My thinking is, start with the CX706 and put it on a sturdy bench rather than a $359 stand and spend $1,500 on tooling for a total budget of $5,000 CDN.

Thoughts?


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 24, 2022)

Modernmod said:


> I am now occupying your boat, @trlvn
> Looking at purchasing my first metal lathe and also looking at the Busy Bee Craftex CX706 (10x22) ($3099 CDN) https:// www.busybeetools.com/products/lathe-10in-x22in-metal -with-digital-readout.html or should I consider the larger Craftex CX709 (13x24) for $3699 which includes a stand
> https://www.busybeetools.com/products/metal-lathe -600mm-with-stand.html
> 
> ...


I'd go for the 1.5" bore size rather than the 1".  When all is said and done that slightly larger turning ability at 13" and 1.5" hole size will be handier.   The CX709 is also reduced more so it was way more expensive.
IMHO


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## Dabbler (Aug 24, 2022)

The 10x22 is half the weight of the 13X24, and weight will help with vibration and parting, and using form tools.  The larger lathe lacks finer thread pitches than 40TPI, but I have never needed finer...

I thing the better value is in the larger lathe, as the stand is set up for the lathe already.


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## Dabbler (Aug 24, 2022)

Oh and the larger lathe has a MT3 tail stock with is an advantage in some cases.


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## Darren (Aug 24, 2022)

where are you located? I'm going to have a nice Standard Modern 11x20  for sale within a week. Probably a much better machine/deal than most offshore stuff.


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## Modernmod (Aug 25, 2022)

Darren said:


> where are you located? I'm going to have a nice Standard Modern 11x20  for sale within a week. Probably a much better machine/deal than most offshore stuff.


Hi @Darren I'm in Belleville, ON.


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## trlvn (Aug 25, 2022)

I've been quite pleased with my CX706 so far; not that I've done all that much yet.

In the Busybee Fall Catalogue, I saw that the CX709 was on sale for a good price.  It would not fit in my space in the basement so it was a non-starter for me.  Note that it says it is a "1.5 HP" motor but the max draw is 11 amps at 110 volts.  IOW, it is really a 3/4 HP machine.  Which should be enough.

Also, it is a change-gear machine, right?  To thread, you have to put the right gears on in the right order.  If you are looking in the 13 inch range, there are a number of machines out there that have a threading gear box.

Looking at the CX709, it looks like the feed rates are set by change gears, as well?  On my CX706, there is a knob to switch Fast/Med/Slow feed rate which I don't see on the CX709.  If this is correct, I think it is a significant drawback.  I often rough stock down on one speed and switch to a slower one for a fine finishing pass.

Finally, I'm pretty sure that a belt change is required to get the highest speed range on the CX709.  Not a big deal but something to be aware of.  On my CX706, it is a pain to take the belt cover off.  It is not hinged; the whole thing pulls off.  To put it back on, there is a safety interlock that has to be lined up before it will click in.  Not the end of the world but I can't easily switch to high range for drilling small holes and whatnot.  Maybe the CX709 belt cover is at least hinged?

Let me know if you want any more details on the CX706.  HTH.

Craig


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## trlvn (Aug 25, 2022)

One more thing...power cross feed.  My CX706 has power cross feed and it is a handy feature some times.  I don't see that feature mentioned for the CX709 and the pictures don't clearly show whether it is there or not.  Reading the manual ought to verify if it is present.

Craig


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## Susquatch (Aug 25, 2022)

trlvn said:


> One more thing...power cross feed.  My CX706 has power cross feed and it is a handy feature some times.  I don't see that feature mentioned for the CX709 and the pictures don't clearly show whether it is there or not.  Reading the manual ought to verify if it is present.
> 
> Craig



Pretty sure it does. The specs say "Cross–feed range: 0.025-0.34mm/r".  When I look at the photos on Busy Bee, I'm pretty sure I see a feed direction lever on the top right of the saddle. But as you say, if your gunna buy one, I'd get the Manual and study it cover to cover.


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## DPittman (Aug 25, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Note that it says it is a "1.5 HP" motor but the max draw is 11 amps at 110 volts. IOW, it is really a 3/4 HP machine. Which should be enough.


I know manufacturer horse power ratings are wonky most of the time,  but I've always read that it takes 745 watts to make one horsepower. So with that figure the 1.5hp rating for the lathe would be accurate. What factor/formula do you use?


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## trlvn (Aug 25, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I know manufacturer horse power ratings are wonky most of the time,  but I've always read that it takes 745 watts to make one horsepower. So with that figure the 1.5hp rating for the lathe would be accurate. What factor/formula do you use?


Horsepower is supposed to be an output rating and single phase electric motors aren't all that efficient.  I think modern motors achieve something like 70% efficiency.  More practically though, if you look at utility motors from the 50's through the 70's, they were generally rated as requiring 13 to 15 amps to be called a 1 horsepower motor.  I think that is a reasonable benchmark.

In the 1980's, it became common to see shop vacs and woodworking routers, among other devices, that claimed to be 3 or 3.5 HP and yet they were rated for 15 amps at 110 volts.  The 'footnotes' usually described this as "developed horsepower" which was just before the motor would stall.  IOW, an unsustainable load.

I always look at the amperage rating.  They can't fudge that because the CSA rating is all about fire safety.  The "horsepower" rating is all too often just ill-defined marketing babble.

IMHO.

Craig


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## PeterT (Aug 25, 2022)

And then there's Metric HP which is 735 watts.








						Horsepower - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Dabbler (Aug 25, 2022)

@PeterT I had no idea HP had gotten so complex.  When I was in engineering school, 745W - that was it.

Thanks for pointing out the article,  the whole thing was fascinating.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 25, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @PeterT I had no idea HP had gotten so complex.  When I was in engineering school, 745W - that was it.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the article,  the whole thing was fascinating.


There are some good calculators here too.  For matching torque and RPM if you want to know if a specific motor will do what you want.





						Electric Motors - Torque vs. Power and Speed
					

Electric motor output power and torque vs. rotation speed.




					www.engineeringtoolbox.com


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## PeterT (Aug 25, 2022)

Oh, this could turn into a deep rabbit hole, but lets not go there. Even if everyone agreed on the underlying HP math & standards, some vendors would still find a way to cherry pick values to make their product appear one way or another, depending on what benefits sales. Electric motors tend to have curves similar to link example based on their winding & other variables. HP is a product of torque & RPM so all depends on where you are on the curve. Good luck finding curves for most any commercial tool, especially offshore. As already mentioned, max amps (stall current) doesn't really correlate to a useful bracket of the operating range. And for bigger motors with like start/run capacitors, there is also FLA (full load amps) which the motor sees but only briefly & more useful for sizing wires & breakers. Is that what they mean by 'max amps' (as opposed to running amps)? I think that about taps out my limited knowledge reservoir LOL.

CSA, hmm.. there's another can of worms. Maybe I'm wrong but I think a lot of import electrical devices including power tools, appliances just slip under the radar or its not strictly enforced or the regs are focusing on bigger power units or specific operating environments.  Walk down Crappy Tire isle & look for a CSA sticker on everything with a cord. I bet not many. Maybe some machine tool vendors take it seriously & ensure compliancy at some corporate/import level, I really don't know. Modern Tool told me they specify certain electrical standards at factory level & add a few more thingies once landed for their machines. Not sure if that is proactive CYB if they are subject to some kind of spot check audit process? Do other importers do the same? Not sure.









						How To Read DC Motor & Gear Motor Performance Curves
					

Performance curves are a key aspect of any motor specification. Learn what all of this data means to help in your motor selection process.




					islproducts.com


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## Degen (Aug 26, 2022)

trlvn said:


> One more thing...power cross feed.  My CX706 has power cross feed and it is a handy feature some times.  I don't see that feature mentioned for the CX709 and the pictures don't clearly show whether it is there or not.  Reading the manual ought to verify if it is present.
> 
> Craig


Do yourself a favor, go to Grizzly's site and look for the most similar lathe down load their manual (user, parts and service) great extra info missed in the BB version, same goes for the PM manual.

I love my CX707 but that extra info is gold (ie lube specs and more).


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## Modernmod (Aug 26, 2022)

Degen said:


> Do yourself a favor, go to Grizzly's site and look for the most similar lathe down load their manual (user, parts and service) great extra info missed in the BB version, same goes for the PM manual.
> 
> I love my CX707 but that extra info is gold (ie lube specs and more).


I did exactly that.


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## Degen (Aug 27, 2022)

Another suggestion is that you make youself a large chuck key  gives you easier locking and chuck removal.  Second is a key holder mines mounted to the stand. Third is a is spindle drift or knock out bar to allow removal of centers and such (I just reusing the one I made for my original lathe).


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## Modernmod (Aug 27, 2022)

Degen said:


> Another suggestion is that you make youself a large chuck key  gives you easier locking and chuck removal.  Second is a key holder mines mounted to the stand. Third is a is spindle drift or knock out bar to allow removal of centers and such (I just reusing the one I made for my original lathe).


Funny enough, I just watched this yesterday


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## SomeGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

There's a 709 on marketplace right now:





						Log into Facebook
					

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.




					www.facebook.com


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