# Train horns



## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

http://www.companylisting.ca/Airchime_Manufacturing_Co_Ltd/default.aspx

The project begins 

@Swharfin' was kind enough to send me one bell, which is the centre of this project


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

http://www.nauticapedia.ca/Gallery/Airchime.php

Some history


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Nathan_AirChime_K-series_Air_Horns

More history


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## YYCHM (Feb 17, 2021)

Go David


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## YYCHM (Feb 17, 2021)

Let's see a pic of what you have so far....  Put something in the image for size reference.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)




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## Dusty (Feb 17, 2021)

Is it legal for a semi? Wow that will surely rattle their teeth while messing their undies.


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## YYCHM (Feb 17, 2021)

Is that electric or pneumatic?


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

Dusty said:


> Is it legal for a semi? Wow that will surely rattle their teeth while messing their undies.


I don’t actually know if there’s any rules covering decibel levels for highway tractors


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Is that electric or pneumatic?


Pneumatic


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## CalgaryPT (Feb 17, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 13361


The wow factor for this is off the scale. Keep us posted.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

CalgaryPT said:


> The wow factor for this is off the scale. Keep us posted.


Yessir


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## francist (Feb 17, 2021)

I have a few as well, collected over the years. Last time I ran them was for the front line workers salute every evening during the height of COVID onset. Lots of fun.


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## Chicken lights (Feb 17, 2021)

francist said:


> I have a few as well, collected over the years. Last time I ran them was for the front line workers salute every evening during the height of COVID onset. Lots of fun.
> 
> View attachment 13369


Do you run yours individually or set up to run together? My understanding is limited but I believe they sound better in a group? I remember chatting in another thread about them awhile ago


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## francist (Feb 17, 2021)

The only ones I sound together are ones on a manifold made for that. So my K-12 (bottom left in my photo) is sounded as two horns together because they’re on the manifold made for that combination, others are singles so I keep them that way even though the individual horns themselves are the same if that makes any sense?

Takes twice the air to run two at a time though, so it can get eaten up fast. I think a lot of people like the sound of a twin or combination horn better than a single as they can have a little more depth or complexity to the note. Kind of like listening to one tuba vs a group, there’d be more depth to the overall sound. I’m not an expert on them though, some of the real railfan guys have made a life’s work out of studying what gets that best sound.

From here yours looks like a die cast K-1? Should sound pretty clean


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## Everett (Feb 17, 2021)

My boss at work has a Peterbilt highway tractor with two train horns mounted under the cab and an air valve by the driver's seat.  It came that way when he bought the truck and let's just say that we don't let that thing blast in the shop!


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## Swharfin' (Feb 18, 2021)

I found a 1/2"ball valve a simple static way to control pitch and Db- it had no issues @ 150 psi full flow ....I did tho


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## Chicken lights (Feb 18, 2021)

Swharfin' said:


> I found a 1/2"ball valve a simple static way to control pitch and Db- it had no issues @ 150 psi full flow ....I did tho


I need to actually find where the tiny Roadrunner horn is on this truck and figure out how it works. There’s a 1/4” airline running from the pull cord down the A column, I’m guessing that’s a signal airline running to an air valve. On my other truck there was a 1/2” airline running to the air horns, but I didn’t install those that’s how she came

@Brent H gave me a piece of stainless that used to be a shelf, I’m thinking that might get cut to make a mounting bracket


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## Swharfin' (Feb 18, 2021)

Cool I look forward to seeing more
It is a bit of an air hog


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## Chicken lights (Mar 1, 2021)

I got a tracking number in my email today. The surprise part of this project is on its way


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## Chicken lights (Mar 4, 2021)

Surprise


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## francist (Mar 4, 2021)

Nice! Die cast K-1?, die cast K-2?, and what’s the little guy?


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## Chicken lights (Mar 4, 2021)

francist said:


> Nice! Die cast K-1?, die cast K-2?, and what’s the little guy?


They are a K2 and a K4


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## francist (Mar 4, 2021)

Got it, thanks. Forgot the other one was from earlier.


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## Chicken lights (Mar 4, 2021)

francist said:


> Got it, thanks. Forgot the other one was from earlier.


Any suggestions on a mounting bracket? Cut a 4” circle out of 1” aluminum then drill and tap the centre for 1/2” NPT?


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## francist (Mar 4, 2021)

That would probably work. You thinking bolt the whistle to aluminum disk and then bring the air in from the side of the disk, hence the 1” thickness? Otherwise, I’ve used 1/2” aluminum for just a mounting bracket with a clearance hole through the centre for the fitting. Mine were stationary mounts though, not on a vehicle where there will be some vibration. 

I’m not sure what the underside of the foot on your red one looks like — many of mine are the older sand-cast whistles which had a threaded foot. I do have one newer die cast Nathan (albeit with a broken foot) that has the newer method using an O-ring groove.

Here’s a few shots of the various stanchions on mine, from a single mount on the K-1L, twin mount on the K-12, and then the newer, broken Nathan. FYI - if these break anywhere it will be the two “ears” on the mounting foot where the bolt holes go through, especially if they’re mounted on the side of a cab, say, or overtightened. With the exception of the K-1L  which was Navy, all of mine were on logging equipment which of course comes with its own set of perils.


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## David_R8 (Mar 4, 2021)

Wait...why do you have train horns Frank?


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## Chicken lights (Mar 4, 2021)

@francist 
That’s what’s on the red one. I just picked 1” arbitrarily, the threads on that one are quite deep. Someone smarter than me can probably tell me how deep 1/2” NPT threads need to be to properly tighten.


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## francist (Mar 4, 2021)

David_R8 said:


> Wait...why do you have train horns Frank?


What do you mean, don’t you have any??

Seriously, long story and as if often true with long stories ‘... it all started with one small one...’ and went sideways from there. In these parts they’re often called _whistles_ after the actual steam whistles that were on the donkey engines in the bush, and even though technically they’re horns the whistle term still holds.

Why do I have them? There’s a logging connection in the extended family, coastal loggers like boats, boats need whistles, and I’ve been known to be good at restoring things. That’s how it started, and then we just thought they were really cool and were positioned to collect a few. I also lucked into an Airchime whistle control console (also ex-RCN) from back in the day when Capital Iron still sold real salvage. Others came from the bush.

They’re a neat part of our coastal history, and I still like having them around. Just need to figure how to mount one on a sewing machine now....


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## francist (Mar 4, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> That’s what’s on the red one. I just picked 1” arbitrarily, the threads on that one are quite deep


Oh, you should be golden then. They usually pipe straight into that female thread with a whatever-length nipple and that flange gets bolted straight to cab roof or wherever with a rubber gasket between. You could make an adapter plate or (transition plate might be a better term) depending on what you’re mounting or if you don’t want to run pipe straight through.

I threaded quick connect fittings into the bases of mine so I could decouple them from a single air source but that was just for convenience.


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## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2021)

francist said:


> Oh, you should be golden then. They usually pipe straight into that female thread with a whatever-length nipple and that flange gets bolted straight to cab roof or wherever with a rubber gasket between. You could make an adapter plate or (transition plate might be a better term) depending on what you’re mounting or if you don’t want to run pipe straight through.
> 
> I threaded quick connect fittings into the bases of mine so I could decouple them from a single air source but that was just for convenience.


I suck at drawings but I was thinking to make a 90 degree plate to bolt all three to, and mount them on one of the frame crossmembers. I’ve ordered in a couple brass T’s to build a manifold, but still looking at options


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## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2021)

francist said:


> What do you mean, don’t you have any??
> 
> Seriously, long story and as if often true with long stories ‘... it all started with one small one...’ and went sideways from there. In these parts they’re often called _whistles_ after the actual steam whistles that were on the donkey engines in the bush, and even though technically they’re horns the whistle term still holds.
> 
> ...


I thought some of the history behind them was cool, that’s why I posted a couple links at the start of this


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## Swharfin' (Mar 5, 2021)

Ha!  I'm curious did you air up the lil' red riding horn and find it lacking ?
A chord is much better than a single note.
With your border pick- ups for forum members you could add "Blockade Runner " to "Forum Bootlegger"


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## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2021)

Swharfin' said:


> Ha!  I'm curious did you air up the lil' red riding horn and find it lacking ?
> A chord is much better than a single note.
> With your border pick- ups for forum members you could add "Blockade Runner " to "Forum Bootlegger"


Nope! A friend aired up the lil’ red horn and our ears rang for a good hour afterwards. I knew enough to be 50 feet away and still it was loud. 

Ha! I like blockade runner


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## francist (Mar 5, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I was thinking to make a 90 degree plate to bolt all three to, and mount them on one of the frame crossmember


That sounds reasonable. Something like this, if I’m understanding correctly...




I’m sure you can come up with something that will work, I’ve seen how you think. My main concern if I were doing it would be to somehow plan for the vibration over long periods of time. The larger horns are pretty heavy and almost all the weight is sticking out the front, wonder if there’d be a way to clamp a safety strap or something onto the front lip of the bells? Or maybe support them from underneath with a longer platform too, that might do it.


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## historicalarms (Mar 5, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Nope! A friend aired up the lil’ red horn and our ears rang for a good hour afterwards. I knew enough to be 50 feet away and still it was loud.
> 
> Ha! I like blockade runner



  While reading the last couple days postings in this thread i was thinking when I got to the end i would suggest to you, Dave, that you mount that unit as far back from the cab as you can...I guess you know that already....and point it back.
     If you have them all plumbed and mounted as a unit you can still get a sense of each ones tone by just plugging two at a time with a rag in the muzzle. it really is amazing how each one will have a completely different blast tone but it takes all three in unison to really create the locomotive warning.  I agree that they are "air hogs"...those needles on your air tanks are going to move quicker with a horn blast that they will in a panic breaking episode ( according to Stan, my buddy of the RR crossing story)


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## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> While reading the last couple days postings in this thread i was thinking when I got to the end i would suggest to you, Dave, that you mount that unit as far back from the cab as you can...I guess you know that already....and point it back.
> If you have them all plumbed and mounted as a unit you can still get a sense of each ones tone by just plugging two at a time with a rag in the muzzle. it really is amazing how each one will have a completely different blast tone but it takes all three in unison to really create the locomotive warning.  I agree that they are "air hogs"...those needles on your air tanks are going to move quicker with a horn blast that they will in a panic breaking episode ( according to Stan, my buddy of the RR crossing story)


That’s exactly how they were mounted on the other truck, and I planned something similar


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## Chicken lights (Mar 5, 2021)

@historicalarms 
I’ll let him share details


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## Tom O (Mar 5, 2021)

Now just hook them up to the garage door and wait for the lowlifes to come! ........ Maybe a sign 
“ TP available at house”


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## historicalarms (Mar 6, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Now just hook them up to the garage door and wait for the lowlifes to come! ........ Maybe a sign
> “ TP available at house”




  Thats exactly why they are mounted where they are.
     I apologize for the pigeon shit but the shop door got damaged and jammed open for a while and a few birds decided to roost above the horns...until they became "supper" one evening...I discovered all the hoopla about "pigeon pie" is a fallacy big time ...I fixed the door!
    There is a trip line from the small shop door to a 1/2" ball valve that dumps 1/2" volume air tru the blue line seen attached. If that door is opened by an unwanted intruder, i can guarantee that he will vacate the premises in haste. 
    Air line is fed by 70 gallons of air storage, lasts about 10 seconds at full volume and diminishes down to a squeal at 15 seconds...might not seem to be that long but I can guarantee that the guy aint coming back anytime soon. When I finished the install, of course i had to give er a rip to see if my intended usage would be "sound"...when I popped that dump valve for the first time I couldn't close it fast enough to suit me at all...that first blast lasted all of one second and inside that shop, that was enough for me for a lifetime.


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## historicalarms (Mar 6, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 13635View attachment 13636View attachment 13637View attachment 13638
> @historicalarms
> I’ll let him share details



      I acquired this set of horns and brass bell some years ago from a fellow that worked at the ALIS yards in Calgary, they both came off the same locomotive that was being "salvaged of parts". He was a very good old friend & I did some "lathework/gunsmithing for him and refused any payment. The next time he was by my place he dropped these items off for me. He has since past on but I have these items for reminders.
      That brass bell hangs on my back deck for a dinner bell at family bbq's, the damn thing must weigh 30-40 lbs and can be heard 1/2 way across the 1/4 section in background of the photo. It is tarnished now from hanging in the elements for 15 years but when I got it from the guy he had spun it in a lathe at work to polish it up and it shone like new penny. 
      Keepsakes and reminders from a simple old "real mountain man" that had a good paying union job until ALIS changed hands.


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## YYCHM (Jun 11, 2021)

So, what became of this project?  Are they mounted on the truck?


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## Chicken lights (Jun 12, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> So, what became of this project?  Are they mounted on the truck?


They got moved lower on the priority list, unfortunately. Stuff that breaks or wears out gets priority 

maybe I should break the air horn thats on the truck then I’ll HAVE to fix it....


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2021)

Started making the adapters today. The first ones a little crude.

Figured to make them from 3 pieces. 1/2” flat top and bottom with a piece of 2” solid round stock in the middle. Have it tigged together then final tapping. It’s 1/2” NPT on one end and a loose 1/2” hole on the other end. Figured to leave all three pieces at 1/2”, bolt all three pieces together then get it welded up.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2021)

This’ll confuse some people- I asked my buddy how to plumb them today. He said to buy a brake valve, $50-60 or so. Try to get one with 5/8” NPT in and out ports. Then use the existing air line from the pull cord valve, as the signal line.

So from the air tank, 5/8” line to the brake valve. 5/8” line to the manifold. Reuse the existing 1/4” or 3/8” that went to the old air horn as a signal line. Then 1/2” line from the manifold to each individual horn.

The way a brake valve works is when you step on the brake pedal, a treadle valve controls how much air gets sent to the brake valve. (To my knowledge; there will be different systems). So instead of a treadle valve controlling the brake valve the pull cord will take its place. Same concept, pull the cord a little not much air is asked for. Pull the cord all the way (standing on the brake pedal) it says we need all the air we can get.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2021)

Not exactly rocket appliance work but all three are done. Hopefully I can be home in time Monday to get more material


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## YYCHM (Jul 17, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Not exactly rocket appliance work but all three are done. Hopefully I can be home in time Monday to get more material



I'd need to see a sketch in order to figure out what it is you are shooting for


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> I'd need to see a sketch in order to figure out what it is you are shooting for


Three of the red thing in post 46 (not the light)


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## YYCHM (Jul 17, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Three of the red thing in post 46 (not the light)



Ok, I had that much figured out already.  What will the total assembly look like and how does it mount on the truck?


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ok, I had that much figured out already.  What will the total assembly look like and how does it mount on the truck?


Check post 21, 28 and 35

The round part of the red thing will get mounted to a bracket using the four bolt holes. Then an air line fitting will screw in to feed it air


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## historicalarms (Jul 18, 2021)

Just passing on what I've been told Chicken....both guys I knew with locomotive horns both said the regular 1/4" air delivery lines didn't offer enough volume, the pressure was there, but horn reeds require volume to be efficient. They both used a simple 1/2" ball valve to energize the horns. 
    The one I have in my shop is fed by a 1/2" line and works excellent until it drains the pressure down so volume is also diminishing.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 18, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Just passing on what I've been told Chicken....both guys I knew with locomotive horns both said the regular 1/4" air delivery lines didn't offer enough volume, the pressure was there, but horn reeds require volume to be efficient. They both used a simple 1/2" ball valve to energize the horns.
> The one I have in my shop is fed by a 1/2" line and works excellent until it drains the pressure down so volume is also diminishing.


I’m understanding what you’re saying, but it should work fine as a signal line, to open the brake valve? No different than stepping on the brake pedal?


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## Chicken lights (Oct 23, 2021)

This is moving really slowly, even by my standards
I need to find a better way to cut out the bottom 4” aluminum pieces, my drill press is not happy cutting them. But that’s the general idea, get those three pieces welded up to replicate the red piece then make it prettier. Got the brass fittings for the manifold. 

The blue part is a brake valve. I forget the exact sizes but the big holes are the in and out the small one on top is the signal line I’ll use from the original air horn pull cord. All that does is open and close the valve, the supply is either 5/8” or 3/4” right from the air tanks


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## YYCHM (Oct 23, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I need to find a better way to cut out the bottom 4” aluminum pieces, my drill press is not happy cutting them. But that’s the general idea, get those three pieces welded up to replicate the red piece then make it prettier. Got the brass fittings for the manifold.



Got a lathe


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## Chicken lights (Oct 23, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Got a lathe


I actually would have zero idea how to cut out a round shape from a rectangle shape on a lathe 
Even if you could chuck up the rectangle piece wouldn’t it be too out of balance to cut a straight circle? 
I guess maybe cut the rectangle into squares wouldn’t be as bad

I dunno, but that’s too much thinking for this boy tonight


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## YYCHM (Oct 23, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> I actually would have zero idea how to cut out a round shape from a rectangle shape on a lathe
> Even if you could chuck up the rectangle piece wouldn’t it be too out of balance to cut a straight circle?
> I guess maybe cut the rectangle into squares wouldn’t be as bad
> 
> I dunno, but that’s too much thinking for this boy tonight



The 6" piece I just turned round wasn't exactly square but it was close.  Does that lathe of yours have a face plate?  Is that aluminum you're playing with?


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## CalgaryPT (Oct 23, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 17815View attachment 17816This is moving really slowly, even by my standards
> I need to find a better way to cut out the bottom 4” aluminum pieces, my drill press is not happy cutting them. But that’s the general idea, get those three pieces welded up to replicate the red piece then make it prettier. Got the brass fittings for the manifold.
> 
> The blue part is a brake valve. I forget the exact sizes but the big holes are the in and out the small one on top is the signal line I’ll use from the original air horn pull cord. All that does is open and close the valve, the supply is either 5/8” or 3/4” right from the air tanks


Fun project.


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## historicalarms (Oct 24, 2021)

Dang Dave I didnt think of showing you my horn set-up when we were working at the shop ( are you still happy with the "jury rigged" toolbox adjustments we made?).

     If I'm understanding properly your dilemma, you want to make the top square piece of aluminum round. You already have a center hole in the piece, tighten a bolt into the hole and chuck the bolt up in a lathe chuck & start cutting...will be round in short order.


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## Chicken lights (Oct 24, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> Dang Dave I didnt think of showing you my horn set-up when we were working at the shop ( are you still happy with the "jury rigged" toolbox adjustments we made?).
> 
> If I'm understanding properly your dilemma, you want to make the top square piece of aluminum round. You already have a center hole in the piece, tighten a bolt into the hole and chuck the bolt up in a lathe chuck & start cutting...will be round in short order.





I’d have to cut it in half before I could chuck it in a lathe, I thought I’d be able to just bang them out on a drill press. Guess I should finish fixing the lathe.

The toolbox is so much nicer to use now! I haven’t noticed any issues with it since.


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## Chicken lights (Oct 24, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> The 6" piece I just turned round wasn't exactly square but it was close.  Does that lathe of yours have a face plate?  Is that aluminum you're playing with?


No face plate and yes it’s aluminum


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## YYCHM (Oct 24, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> No face plate and yes it’s aluminum



Do what Doug said.  It will be round in short order with a nice smooth finish.


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## 6.5 Fan (Oct 24, 2021)

On the Ferry i operated we had air horns and the old Cat 855 motor had an air throttle. If you ran the air horn at full throttle the motor slowed down. Air lines were to small.


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## Susquatch (Oct 26, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> No face plate and yes it’s aluminum



You in Chatham again anytime soon? Didn't work out last time. If so, plan to drop by here with your parts and we can have some fun together! My lathe can prolly handle that job just fine and if not, we have many other ways. 

Lots of ways to skin that cat! 

Nothing beats doing a project with a friend.


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## Chicken lights (Oct 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> You in Chatham again anytime soon? Didn't work out last time. If so, plan to drop by here with your parts and we can have some fun together! My lathe can prolly handle that job just fine and if not, we have many other ways.
> 
> Lots of ways to skin that cat!
> 
> Nothing beats doing a project with a friend.


Uhhh no offence I try to avoid Chatham 
Windsor/Detroit is my least favourite place to cross. I’ll throw it on the truck next week, that’s a kind offer to help


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## Susquatch (Oct 27, 2021)

Chicken lights said:


> Uhhh no offence I try to avoid Chatham
> Windsor/Detroit is my least favourite place to cross. I’ll throw it on the truck next week, that’s a kind offer to help



No offense taken. I'd move out west if my wife would agree.


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## Brent H (Oct 27, 2021)

@Chicken lights : I lived in Chatham for like 10 years....never been back


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## Chicken lights (Oct 27, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> No offense taken. I'd move out west if my wife would agree.


The guys here say nows not good, theres little work, lots of equipment sitting. But it’s tempting....

This is hard to admit but the more time I spend in even Saskatchewan the more I like it there. Heck I didn’t know Manitoba had a cottage country until the last trip out. The fact Regina has a beach still makes me chuckle 

But I digress


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## Chicken lights (Jun 28, 2022)

@Brent H helped make the 4” circles. Then tonight after some careful setup I finished punching the holes. Once I had the jig set right, the rest was easy. 1/2” all the way through the center, and for now 3/8” for the mounting bolts. All set to drop off to get welded up

I have airlines to run for another project soon, so that would be a good time, do both at once.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 28, 2022)

Kinda sorta where and how they’ll mount, although I think I’m gonna run the home 20 part vertical, as a splash shield, using the 90 degree piece. Cut another piece of stainless to lay flat. It’s a crappy picture, but the round thing is my fuel tank, there’s a nice bracket and lots of room to mount them


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## Susquatch (Jun 28, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 24681View attachment 24682Kinda sorta where and how they’ll mount, although I think I’m gonna run the home 20 part vertical, as a splash shield, using the 90 degree piece. Cut another piece of stainless to lay flat. It’s a crappy picture, but the round thing is my fuel tank, there’s a nice bracket and lots of room to mount them



You do like loud noises don't you! 

I think you are having way too much fun!


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## Chicken lights (Jun 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You do like loud noises don't you!
> 
> I think you are having way too much fun!


The weenie air horn on this truck is embarrassing, frankly. Might as well be a “meep meep” horn 

Unless something else breaks, getting these mounted and plumbed are moved back up the list. I’ve been working on airlines for traction adding devices when I’ve had time recently, so planning on installing the air valves and lines as one big project, hopefully the fab shop can weld these up fairly fast for me 

I want to replace an air tank at the same time, for a lot of reasons. IH tried using air fittings held in with snap rings that nobody sells or carries, so the short way to fix a bunch of obsolete (leaking) fittings is to replace the tank, giving me a spot to tap into for train horn air supply. 

It’s combining like 6 repairs / projects into one at this point 

It’s ridiculous


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## Susquatch (Jun 28, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> The weenie air horn on this truck is embarrassing, frankly. Might as well be a “meep meep” horn
> 
> Unless something else breaks, getting these mounted and plumbed are moved back up the list. I’ve been working on airlines for traction adding devices when I’ve had time recently, so planning on installing the air valves and lines as one big project, hopefully the fab shop can weld these up fairly fast for me
> 
> ...



Ridiculous is a good choice of words, but so is awesome! It's amazing all the things you are doing to deal with it all! 

Teach me something. How do air devices improve traction? Is that kinda like ABS where the wheels that are spinning are braked a little to redistribute loads to those that are not? 

I think a huge big rig that goes meep meep would be hilarious! Especially if it can roar like a freight train too!


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## Chicken lights (Jun 29, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Teach me something. How do air devices improve traction? Is that kinda like ABS where the wheels that are spinning are braked a little to redistribute loads to those that are not?


I have two drive axles, one drive shaft from the transmission to the front one, then a second driveshaft from the front axle to the rear axle. Even though (on big trucks) it’s all at the back end of my truck, think of it like 4 wheel drive on a pickup 

I have an air actuated power divider (think going from 2wd to 4wd on a pickup) that sends driven power to both axles

My rear drive axle has an air actuated locker, that makes all four rear wheels turn the same. There’s a sliding collar driven by air that moves to a set of splines on one axle shaft to do so 

My front drive axle is open, but I have one with a locker to replace it. 

IH did funny things with air lines, the power divider had air supplied from the brakes. The locker uses air from the transmission. While I’m sure someone somewhere thinks that’s brilliant I’m going to redo that to have them supplied from my dry air tank (likely “safety” or to limit driver error) Partly for diagnostics to have them on separate switches/circuits, but mostly for driver control, assuming the driver knows what he’s doing


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## Susquatch (Jun 29, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I have two drive axles, one drive shaft from the transmission to the front one, then a second driveshaft from the front axle to the rear axle. Even though (on big trucks) it’s all at the back end of my truck, think of it like 4 wheel drive on a pickup
> 
> I have an air actuated power divider (think going from 2wd to 4wd on a pickup) that sends driven power to both axles
> 
> ...



Thanks @Chicken lights , I have a much better idea of it all now. 

Very very cool! If I understand you, there are 3 locks: front diff to rear diff, side to side on the front diff, and side to side on the rear diff. You have the front to back and you have the side to side on the rear. You also have a replacement side to side front that you are planning to install. 

All of this is air activated via switches in the cab. But the overall design sucks mostly because the air source the factory chose wasn't exactly brilliant....... 

As you prolly know, the 4WD switch on most pickups and cars is really just front to rear 2WD.......LOL! (still twice as good as one). There are some nice exceptions that have 3wd and a few true 4wd systems.

When I first asked the question, I was thinking about the Mercedes system that uses the ABS brake control system to selectively stop wheels from spinning which transfers torque to the wheel with traction. I didn't really imagine anything like big sleeves to physically couple the shafts! But that's just me thinking small again! 

So my big burning question is..... Are they clutched? Or are they at the mercy of the driver's knowledge and skill level to engage them? And what happens if they get stuck in lock? I can't get my head around the effect of the weight difference between the front steering wheels and those two big drive axles. The axles could have wagon weight on them so in my minds eye I see those two steering wheels plowing around at the mercy of the drive wheels..... (Insert picture here of drivers eyes bugging out cuz he forgot to release the locks and has no steering.....) 

All three of my tractors are Front Assist with a manual rear axle lock. Even with giant Ag tires up front, those things have a mind of their own when it's time to turn a corner.....


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## 140mower (Jun 29, 2022)

Your minds eye is correct, in that lockers definitely effect steering. Makes for interesting times when you are chained up, lockers engaged, chewing and clawing for every inch of ground while pushing a foot of snow up the hill and trying to finagle your way around a switch back..... Getting off the throttle a little bit helps, but usually disengaging one or both of the lockers briefly is needed, but then you need to get back off the throttle briefly to re-engage so you aren't trying to lock up while spinning a wheel. Most of the newer trucks I have driven automatically kick the lockers out once you shift into high range, I wish one would stay in sometimes.......
Originally I thought chicken lights was installing a set of spinning chains in front of the axles, I can't remember the brand name, our line of work here plowing snow is hard on chains and the conventional style of triple chains are about all that will hold up and be cost effective.


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## Chicken lights (Jun 29, 2022)

140mower said:


> Your minds eye is correct, in that lockers definitely effect steering. Makes for interesting times when you are chained up, lockers engaged, chewing and clawing for every inch of ground while pushing a foot of snow up the hill and trying to finagle your way around a switch back..... Getting off the throttle a little bit helps, but usually disengaging one or both of the lockers briefly is needed, but then you need to get back off the throttle briefly to re-engage so you aren't trying to lock up while spinning a wheel. Most of the newer trucks I have driven automatically kick the lockers out once you shift into high range, I wish one would stay in sometimes.......
> Originally I thought chicken lights was installing a set of spinning chains in front of the axles, I can't remember the brand name, our line of work here plowing snow is hard on chains and the conventional style of triple chains are about all that will hold up and be cost effective.


The locker (in my truck) gets air from the low range transmission air. That’s why it kicks out in high range, and I agree with you, it’s annoying. I don’t see any reason to keep it that way.

This truck came with a set of Scan Trac triples, they’re a different design than the traditional heavy triples. Plus a lot lighter to carry


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## Chicken lights (Jun 29, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Thanks @Chicken lights , I have a much better idea of it all now.
> 
> Very very cool! If I understand you, there are 3 locks: front diff to rear diff, side to side on the front diff, and side to side on the rear diff. You have the front to back and you have the side to side on the rear. You also have a replacement side to side front that you are planning to install.
> 
> ...








You’re starting to test the limits of my knowledge, but I believe the collar (orange) slides onto the set of splines on the axle shaft (also orange), when air is delivered to the air cylinder (blue). The power divider is green.

I don’t know if internally it’s setup like a Detroit locker and there is a way for it to ratchet/slip. I highly doubt there will be any friction material like in a posi. I’m only guessing but I’m leaning towards it’s locked solid.


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## historicalarms (Jun 29, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I have two drive axles, one drive shaft from the transmission to the front one, then a second driveshaft from the front axle to the rear axle. Even though (on big trucks) it’s all at the back end of my truck, think of it like 4 wheel drive on a pickup
> 
> I have an air actuated power divider (think going from 2wd to 4wd on a pickup) that sends driven power to both axles
> 
> ...


 Commonly referred to as "chains on the dash"....just pull the air buttons on the dash instead of physically getting out to install  jewelry on an icy hill in the middle of a blizzard


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## Aliva (Jun 29, 2022)

In 2009 I bought a new Ford F150 extend cab I decide to install  a train horn . So I bought a complete kit, compressor, 10 gallon receiver all the required tubing valves and solenoid. The horn consisted of 4 trumpets of various lengths from, 18" down to 12" . They actually fit perfectly behind the front grill. There was also enough room for the compressor. The system pressure was 140psi. The horn manifold was fed by a 3/8 air line then 1/4' to each trumpet. This thing was extremely loud and was a perfect mimic of a standard CN or CP engine. It sure got everyone's attention when I used it. Just had to use it with caution. I checked with the local police and the HTA in Ontario and there is no decibel limit on a " signaling device", so as far as I know it was legal. Just don't get stupid with, I never had an issue. On the way home from work one day I was coming up to one of the company's rail crossings were an engine was shunting some cars. I decided to give a toot , the engineer in in the loco started looking around for an other engine on his track and franticly started to blow his horn. That was the first and last time I did that. If anyone's interested I bought the kit from:








						HornBlasters Train Horn Kits | Loudest Train Horn Kits
					

Our HornBlasters train horn kits include everything you need to install them on your vehicle with a 12V power source. Browse our loudest train horn kits!




					hornblasters.com


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## Susquatch (Jun 29, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 24685View attachment 24686You’re starting to test the limits of my knowledge, but I believe the collar (orange) slides onto the set of splines on the axle shaft (also orange), when air is delivered to the air cylinder (blue). The power divider is green.
> 
> I don’t know if internally it’s setup like a Detroit locker and there is a way for it to ratchet/slip. I highly doubt there will be any friction material like in a posi. I’m only guessing but I’m leaning towards it’s locked solid.



I think I got it! 

I wasn't thinking limited slip like posi, I was thinking clutch on the air activated sleeve engagement. But your photos make it clear that neither one is there. So I'd bet that you are right. It gets locked up solid! 

All cool. 

I especially like the photo of the diff on the pallet..... Prolly need a forklift to move that thing around! No wusses need apply here.....


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## Susquatch (Jun 29, 2022)

historicalarms said:


> physically getting out to install jewelry on an icy hill in the middle of a blizzard



Now there is an image! Only thing missing is "with your bare hands". 

Btw, I actually got a big 4wd tractor stuck in a snow drift a few years ago. Jewelry didn't help........ Had to dig it out the old fashioned way. 

I had been plowing and ran out of places to push snow so I tried to punch an access through the snow bank out into the field. Snow was heavy enough to belly the tractor. That was the year before I got a big snow blower for it. Have not really needed the blower ever since...... I should sell it but then it would snow like crazy the year after that.......


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## Chicken lights (Jul 13, 2022)

First step, done. Scuzzy old air tank out. New one in, has a couple empty ports to tap a 5/8” air line into


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## Chicken lights (Jul 15, 2022)

Got the mounting bracket mostly fabri-cobbled, cut the stainless from a shelf Brent gave me

I need to re-drill and tap the top flanges, and tap the 1/2 pipe thread yet. Plus drill the center hole in the stainless. But not tonight


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## Chicken lights (Jul 24, 2022)

Watched a tubalcain (sp?) video on tapping straight. One method was a spring loaded centre in the drill chuck. I ordered in a Brown and Sharp one, it works great. It’s slow, the tap handle hits the drill press column. Plus it’s a lot of steps for each part. But checking with a small machinist square the tap is almost perfectly straight once the hole is tapped

I definitely need to buy a vise, my neighbour lent me one.


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## Susquatch (Jul 24, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 25160View attachment 25161Watched a tubalcain (sp?) video on tapping straight. One method was a spring loaded centre in the drill chuck. I ordered in a Brown and Sharp one, it works great. It’s slow, the tap handle hits the drill press column. Plus it’s a lot of steps for each part. But checking with a small machinist square the tap is almost perfectly straight once the hole is tapped
> 
> I definitely need to buy a vise, my neighbour lent me one.



Ya, that's a problem with big Tap Handles. Sometimes it's useful to have a smaller one. 

On occasion, I have relied on the tap follower to keep me straight and used an open end wrench on the end of the tap and a firm hand on the wrench to tap connection to manage the torque reaction. It's best to keep the follower short when you do that so it can't get out of alignment very easily. But in a pinch it works.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Ya, that's a problem with big Tap Handles. Sometimes it's useful to have a smaller one.
> 
> On occasion, I have relied on the tap follower to keep me straight and used an open end wrench on the end of the tap and a firm hand on the wrench to tap connection to manage the torque reaction. It's best to keep the follower short when you do that so it can't get out of alignment very easily. But in a pinch it works.





I already had a machinist hog out the larger tap handle (to match the smaller one) so I could use the larger taps. There’s no way I’m getting that tap in the smaller handle

I did consider using a wrench, but didn’t want to gronk on it and risk it getting crooked 

I’m mostly happy finally knowing what that dot at the end of a tap is there for


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## Susquatch (Jul 24, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> View attachment 25162I already had a machinist hog out the larger tap handle (to match the smaller one) so I could use the larger taps. There’s no way I’m getting that tap in the smaller handle
> 
> I did consider using a wrench, but didn’t want to gronk on it and risk it getting crooked
> 
> I’m mostly happy finally knowing what that dot at the end of a tap is there for



I meant smaller handle, not smaller tap size. You can make one by cutting the handles shorter.

Yes, using a wrench has its problems. The trick is just as you say - keeping it straight while also managing the torque reaction. I do it often enough to have confidence in my ability to do it, but it took a while to get there.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 24, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I meant smaller handle, not smaller tap size. You can make one by cutting the handles shorter.
> 
> Yes, using a wrench has its problems. The trick is just as you say - keeping it straight while also managing the torque reaction. I do it often enough to have confidence in my ability to do it, but it took a while to get there.


Ah shorter arms not smaller tap handle

You could probably just use a couple bolts, now that I think on it


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## Susquatch (Jul 24, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> Ah shorter arms not smaller tap handle
> 
> You could probably just use a couple bolts, now that I think on it


I'm not sure of that. Both those "handles" have special ends on them inside the tap handle body. But maybe something could be fabricobbled.


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