# Gingery Shaper Resurrection



## YYCHM (Jan 23, 2021)

I've been wanting a shaper for quite some time now but don't really have the room for an Atlas so I decided to approach @kevin.decelles  to see if he would surrender @Johnwa 's Gingery to me.  Kevin agreed (Thanks Kevin!).   I picked it up Friday morning....
















You really have to see this thing in person to appreciate the amount of work @Johnwa put into this.  It's quite amazing and I appreciate now why Kevin snapped it up.  I have an agreement with Kevin to return it before ever scrapping it.

In general it's all there except for a few crank handles and graduated collars.  I'll be working on those and tweaking some of the mating surfaces and spots that are binding.






This is  countershaft drive assembly.  I'm still trying to get my head around how it works.  Will probably make more sense once I mount it to something.

Had a really good hour long tour of Kevin's shop.  Man he has some really cool older large machines all running.  Large lathe that has reverse on the fly.  A large shaper with a very long stroke (2.5' ?) where the motor is connected via a 4 speed tractor transmission.  The biggest power hack saw I've ever laid eyes on with hydraulic letdown that lifts the blade on the back stroke.  Very cool stuff.

Craig


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 23, 2021)

Your not going to like that machine at all. Best send it to SK. for finishing.  Congrats


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 23, 2021)

It was good to see Craig. So much is lost in the messaging only aspect of the forum .

Looking forward to updates and hopefully seeing this shaper running in person 


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## Tom O (Jan 23, 2021)

It looks great one thing I saw though is the cross slide mechanism it looks quite coarse on mine it is a finer tooth which will give a smaller stepover giving a better finish.


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 23, 2021)

Craig, there is also a good series on YouTube from the Makercise guy on the Gingery machines.  I've seen the lathe/shaper series, and understand he is/has done the mill.  https://makercise.com/metal-shaper/


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## YYCHM (Jan 23, 2021)

Tom O said:


> It looks great one thing I saw though is the cross slide mechanism it looks quite coarse on mine it is a finer tooth which will give a smaller stepover giving a better finish.



Well..... If John stayed true to the Gingery design the mechanism can be setup to pickup 1 to 6 teeth per stroke, moving the table 0.002" - 0.012" per stroke.


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## YYCHM (Jan 23, 2021)

First up on the agenda was a keyway on the sprocket drive shaft to mesh with the keyed drive pulley.


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## Hruul (Jan 23, 2021)

Congrats Craig.  Want to see pics when it is setup.


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## RobinHood (Jan 23, 2021)

Well done.


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## Johnwa (Jan 24, 2021)

I should have the shaper book kicking around somewhere.  I’ll find it for you.


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## YYCHM (Jan 24, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> I should have the shaper book kicking around somewhere.  I’ll find it for you.



Kevin gave me one that I think he got from you.  Red 5-1/2 X 8-1/2 paper back?  He had two of them.


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## Johnwa (Jan 24, 2021)

Maybe that’s where it went? LOL


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## YYCHM (Jan 24, 2021)

One crank handle down..... one to go.






Had this broken Utilathe cross feed crank in my spare parts box that would work.  Made a 1/2"-3/8" bushing with set screw.  How to mount the crank on the mill in order to drill the hole to replace the broken off handle had me a little perplexed.






Then it dawned on me to bolt it to a 1/2" T-Nut and mount the nut in the vise.  Worked like a charm, including mounting it on the bench vise for tapping.

If anyone has a broken crank or two like this that they would be willing to donate to the project,  I'll pay the postage.

Craig


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## RobinHood (Jan 24, 2021)

You mean you are not going to turn these classic dumbell handles on your classic lathe?

Would be a great challenge to grind some form tools or use the step turning method to rough out the balls and finish them with a file and emery paper....

Here is a video showing how to turn contours using the step turn method...


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2021)

A couple of more tweaks today....

The table was binding at the extreme ends of it's travel.






Had to turn a wee bit off the auto cross feed collar on the right side.






And mill 1/16" off the back of the screw support bracket on the left hand side.







And then...…  Three trips to PA later... I finally landed a belt that fit's this countershaft contraption  First attempt I measured it using a power cord wrapped around it, too short.  Next I measured it with a flexible measuring tape, too short again .  Third one...… well it's a little too long, but usable.

@Johnwa Did you cast that 9" pulley?


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## Johnwa (Jan 25, 2021)

Yes I did.  I was a bit worried about the shrinkage flaw on one of the spokes but it seemed to work.


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 26, 2021)

A trip to PA is 1.25 hours round trip so when I buy belts I buy 4 sizes on either side. What size worked? Curious to see if I had 3 on the shelf for it [emoji3]


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## YYCHM (Jan 26, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> A trip to PA is 1.25 hours round trip so when I buy belts I buy 4 sizes on either side. What size worked? Curious to see if I had 3 on the shelf for it [emoji3]



31"


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## historicalarms (Jan 26, 2021)

Craig...envious does not describe me right now, a bench-top shaper was on my "bucket list" for a long time but just never could find one close enough or in my "affordable range" at the time. 
     Enjoy that beastie.


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## YYCHM (Jan 26, 2021)

Discovered a delinquent Gib strip...






On the left hand side of the vertical table slide.  Must have fallen out.






Milled one up out of mild steel and left a hook on the end of it.  Supposed to be brass I think?  






This one can't fall out...…..


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## YYCHM (Jan 27, 2021)




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## YYCHM (Jan 27, 2021)

Well.... I might not have the room for this after all






Not in this configuration that's for sure.  Need to get the motor off to the side or above or below some how.

Anyone know where to source a single phase 110V fractional 1050/800 RPM motor cheap?

Craig


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 27, 2021)

small cabinet..... stack them (motor below).   

or...... break the mold and line shaft it


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 27, 2021)

my hats off to you for getting 'er running.  good to see it moving


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## YYCHM (Jan 28, 2021)

Discovered yet another delinquent Gib Strip...….






Another vertical strip.  This one on the tool head down feed.






Milled up another hooked replacement.






That's not going on walk about again.






Added a calibrated down feed dial per the Gingery design.  As predicted one division produced 0.001" down feed. Confirmed that with my DI.











This is the only spot I have available to stage this thing.  I'll have to sling the motor under the table some how?


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2021)

I have a mounting plan now.....






Don't see any reason for this not to work.  In order to provide a means of tensioning the multi-step pulleys I'll mount the shaper on a 1/2" thick slotted plate with relief to slide it back and forth.

Off to the H/W store tomorrow

@Johnwa that's quite the Bubba arrangement on the motor mounting bracket  Welded?  The hose clamps are interesting..... What's the story behind that?


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 29, 2021)

What hardware do U need?


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## YYCHM (Jan 29, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> What hardware do U need?



Just some bolts, nuts, washers etc.  Nothing special.


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## Tom O (Jan 29, 2021)

You will need to consider that motor mount will be in the way of a heavier frame because once you change the pulley speed it will walk out the door.


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## YYCHM (Feb 3, 2021)

Well..... I think we are ready to stage her in the shop now.






Had her in there once already and had to pull her out again.   Was making way too much noise.

Ended up that motor only likes to be in one particular orientation otherwise it shakes and growls and chatters like crazy.  Worn out from being a furnace motor for god knows how long I would imagine.






Rather than mess with a slotted mounting plate to allow belt tensioning, I milled up some simple L clamps.






Added a back brace in case I have to use some leverage to belt tension.






The counter shaft mounting block was challenging.  First attempt I used a piece of 2X4 screwed to the table.  That arrangement was showing signs of lifting so in my infinite wisdom I decided to add a few more screws for good measure.  Well.... the block split and we were back to square one  No loss really the 2X4 was actually too short to allow the inboard belt to be mounted on the large sheave.  After much head scratching as to what to use as mounting block I spotted a piece of heavy wall 4" square tubing that @kevin.decelles had given me a few years back.  Threw it in the bandsaw and cut her in half, perfect.  Used bolts to mount it this time not wood screws

Stage her in the shop next and start looking at making some chips.


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

Finally making some chips now......






Had to replace the table I had originally mounted it on with a proper tool stand.  That table was just too wobbly LOL.

Mounted my spare 3/4 HP motor this time.






Mounted the countershaft assembly using proper pillow block bears this time.  Things are running much more smoothly now.






Just playing with some aluminum for now.  That's a 1/8" deep step I'm carving out, so not bad, but a couple of things are happening.  The step is getting progressively shallower.  Looks like the tool is climbing as it enters the cut and I can't seem to get a HSS tool to work.  HSS chatters rather badly for some reason.  Probably tool geometry.

Lots of stuff to play with on this shaper.  Both length of stroke and stroke start position are adjustable.  Getting the best results by having the forward stroke start about 1/2" from the work piece and the stroke length minimal.  If you expand on that things get quite violent when the tool contacts the work piece.  Less than that and the clapper doesn't have time to reset.  I think the clapper actually needs to be heavier.  Maybe made of CI rather than aluminium.

The saga continues...…..


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## David_R8 (Feb 20, 2021)

Looking good!


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## Johnwa (Feb 20, 2021)

IIRC the work table wasn’t exactly square and I don’t think I finished planing the top of it. Some of the videos I’ve seen had a largish bearing hanging on the tool holder to give the clapper some extra weight.  
There is also quite a bit of flex so the table does tend to bend down a bit.  The heavier the cut the worse it is.  Many shapers have a vertical post attached to the table to support the outer end


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> IIRC the work table wasn’t exactly square and I don’t think I finished planing the top of it. Some of the videos I’ve seen had a largish bearing hanging on the tool holder to give the clapper some extra weight.
> There is also quite a bit of flex so the table does tend to bend down a bit.  The heavier the cut the worse it is.  Many shapers have a vertical post attached to the table to support the outer end



Ok, thanks, I'll put a DI on it and see where the table is at.  It does flex alright.  Been trying to figure out how an outer table support could be added.


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## YotaBota (Feb 20, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> Probably tool geometry.


Did you watch this video RobinHood posted?,
https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.c...-more-old-educational-videos.2946/#post-37765
It goes into some good detail about tool angles, it is worth the watch.


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

YotaBota said:


> Did you watch this video RobinHood posted?,



Ya, I did.  What's puzzling is that the cemented carbide insert tool that works has essentially nothing in terms of classic tool geometry yet the HSS tools that do chatter like crazy.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 20, 2021)

I'll post a pic later of the southbend table support.  Great to see the chips.  I know when I fired up the big shaper two weeks ago the chatter was crazy.  I added a wee bit of cutting oil and it simmered right down.


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

Mild Steel...…… ?






No problem.  In fact it appears to shape better than the aluminium?  That's a 0.04" step and I'm
confident I can go to 0.05" and maybe more yet.


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

So.... the table is approx. 5" X 5".  It's listing left to right by 0.02" and 0.01" fore and aft.

@Johnwa the Gingery book appears to say let the shaper sort this out by shaping the table.  Is that your take on it as well?

Craig


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 20, 2021)

That's one option, the other is to scrape it flat....... but its a shaper!  I'd take a skim cut.   The beauty here is that you can always make a new table!  Parts are infinite as it was hand made.


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## Johnwa (Feb 20, 2021)

@YYCHobbyMachinist yes, I had started to surface it with the shaper.  I was getting a lot of chatter so put it aside for 15 years


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## YYCHM (Feb 20, 2021)

Johnwa said:


> @YYCHobbyMachinist yes, I had started to surface it with the shaper.  I was getting a lot of chatter so put it aside for 15 years



Ya, I know that chatter you experienced, and I wondered about the chatter marks on the table.  Weird eh.  Any HSS tool I have tried does it.  A simple cemented carbide insert tool doesn't???


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## Johnwa (Feb 20, 2021)

@YYCHobbyMachinist  and @kevin.decelles thanks keeping this thing alive.  I can’t tell you how happy I am to see it in good hands.  I was ready to scrap it for parts and ingots, but then I thought someone on the group might appreciate it.  I’m glad someone did!


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## YYCHM (Feb 22, 2021)

So..... I took the plunge and planed the table.






I'm really impressed.... the machine sliced off smoking hot steel chips no problem.  This is pass one.  I thought I was traversing high to low but managed to go low to high so the doc was pretty significant at the end.






Near the end of pass one.






And this is the final result after a second light pass followed by a no doc pass.  A single pass takes a little over an hour with the cross feed set to it's finest traverse.

She now measures 0.005" left to right (was 0.02") and 0.01 fore to aft, so no real change in fore to aft.  Table flex?

I've noticed that the motor gets rather warm (almost hot) after 30 minutes of this kind of stuff.  Something to be concerned about?

*UPDATE: * I ran the motor for a 1/2 hour with nothing connected to it.  It gets just as warm driving nothing as it did when it was driving the shaper, so I guess that's just the nature of the beast.


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## YYCHM (Mar 9, 2021)

I decided the table needs some help and installed a support.....











Bolted the machine down to a 1/2" thick plate.  The support bracket is a 1/2" thick C section (actually 1/2 of a piece of 4" heavy walled square tubing) and the leg is 3/4" mild steel with a nice slippery brass shoe to ride on. 

Seems to help as HSS tooling is behaving a lot better now.


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## RobinHood (Mar 9, 2021)

That is very good engineering Craig. Well done improving the rigidity of the shaper. Results speak for themselves.


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## Hruul (Mar 9, 2021)

Great fix.


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## Tom O (Mar 10, 2021)

That is probably the best addition you could have done to it the finish looks like night and day.


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## YYCHM (Mar 22, 2021)

Finally got this vise project finished....






Two weeks in the making

If I had to give it a title it would be "The Stan Bray Improved Milling Vise PITA Project from Hell"  Was nothing but gotcha after gotcha after gotcha and a broken center drill to boot.  I wonder how many dead spots are in the travel that will require shimming?


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## YYCHM (Mar 24, 2021)

Not bad for finish if you're patient enough.  Passes a very slow.






This is aluminum and looks to be pretty square now.  I had chewed that piece up pretty bad experimenting and wanted to see if I could shape it back to square.






The round nose tool I ground seems to work not bad.

I have to figure out what's causing all the table/bench vibration I'm experiencing.  Also, the whole machine sort of rocks forward and backwards, so when you see the shaper table dipping it's actually the whole machine rocking.


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## DPittman (Mar 24, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Not bad for finish if you're patient enough.  Passes a very slow.
> 
> View attachment 13844
> 
> ...


It looks like your having fun with that machine, making improvements and learning lots?


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

In my quest to eliminate vibration, I decided to make a new sprocket drive shaft...






The original is a tad too short to fully support a 4 sheave pulley, hence the pulley was wobbling.






Could not find any decent 5/8" stock at Rona or Lowes.  The pieces they had weren't anywhere near straight and looked like they had been dipped in acid, so I turned the new shaft from 3/4" SS I had.  I nailed the dimensions 5/8" and 1/2".  In fact I had to finish the 1/2" end with emery cloth in order for the drive sprocket to seat.











This is the drive sprocket.  It really could use a 1/8" key rather than relying on the two tiny set screws set on flats that is the current implementation.  Can't get my head around why it doesn't have a keyway in the first place unless it was meant to be welded on a shaft.

In any event I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can cut a keyway in it.  I can't picture side milling with a 1/8" end mill working nor can I a picture a 1/8" drill bit doing the trick either.  A hack saw blade won't fit in the center hole.

An ideas?


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## DPittman (Mar 27, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> In my quest to eliminate vibration, I decided to make a new sprocket drive shaft...
> 
> View attachment 13914
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't cutting it with an end mill work?


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

DPittman said:


> Why wouldn't cutting it with an end mill work?



Side mill for plunge mill?  What would you suggest?  A 1/8" end mill looks pretty fragile to me and the side flutes aren't long enough to side mill in one go.


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

Replaced the 1/2" counter shaft shaft as well......






The inboard 4 sheave pully was wobbling on that sucker as well.  The shaft was bent.  Another Rona metal stock purchase


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## DPittman (Mar 27, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Side mill for plunge mill?  What would you suggest?  A 1/8" end mill looks pretty fragile to me and the side flutes aren't long enough to side mill in one go.


So 1/8" end mill is small....maybe you could use  woodruff cutter or slitting saw if an end mill doesn't work.  Mr Pete has some demonstrations 





Are the little set screw on flats not holding?


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

DPittman said:


> So 1/8" end mill is small....maybe you could use  woodruff cutter or slitting saw if an end mill doesn't work.  Mr Pete has some demonstrations
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cutting the keyway on the shaft isn't a problem.  Cutting a keyway in the center hole of the sprocket is my head scratcher.  So far the set screws on flats are holding, but it sure looks iffy to me.


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## DPittman (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh sorry I misunderstood you.  You could slot the sprocket with your lathe (or mill quill) with tiny little nibbles with a hss square ground as a cutter.  You use the back and forth movement of carriage ( or quill) for the motion and advance cross feed to increase depth.


QUOTE="YYCHM, post: 40502, member: 993"]Cutting the keyway on the shaft isn't a problem.  Cutting a keyway in the center hole of the sprocket is my head scratcher.  So far the set screws on flats are holding, but it sure looks iffy to


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## Johnwa (Mar 27, 2021)

A hacksaw blade could be ground down so it fits the hole.


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

DPittman said:


> You could slot the sprocket with your lathe (or mill quill) with tiny little nibbles with a hss square ground as a cutter.  You use the back and forth movement of carriage ( or quill) for the motion and advance cross feed to increase depth.



Ya, I've played with doing that on the lathe.  Didn't have much success


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## RobinHood (Mar 27, 2021)

I would turn a nice fitting slug of steel for the bore. Use the set-screw to secure the slug. Use a regular drill of correct size and drill a hole with the center right at the intersection of the sprocket ID line and the slug OD line. Remove the slug. Use square file to file out the rest of the key way. Or use the mill or lathe with a cutting tool (as has been suggested above) to square the key way. With the drill removing the bulk of the material, the other tools should have a relatively easy time to finish it off.


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> I would turn a nice fitting slug of steel for the bore. Use the set-screw to secure the slug. Use a regular drill of correct size and drill a hole with the center right at the intersection of the sprocket ID line and the slug OD line. Remove the slug. Use square file to file out the rest of the key way. Or use the mill or lathe with a cutting tool (as has been suggested above) to square the key way. With the drill removing the bulk of the material, the other tools should have a relatively easy time to finish it off.



Brilliant That solves the drilling problem.  Thanks!!


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## Tom O (Mar 27, 2021)

I have a set of woodruff cutters if you need them.


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

Well, didn't get to far with the drilling......






The drill bit wanted to wander toward the softer plug material.  I'm thinking this sprocket is hardened.  I quit before I broke my drill bit, you could see the bit bending over.  As a last resort I tried plunging with a 1/8" 2 flute end mill.  Broke the end mill in very short order.

Guess flats it's going to be after all...


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## RobinHood (Mar 27, 2021)

If it is hard, then you would have struggled with a HSS slotting tool as well.

What size are you going for? I may have the same size in carbide end mill that we could have a go at it with if you want.


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 27, 2021)

Thank-you for answering my wife's question as to why I need two shapers.  (So #2 can fix #1)

I'll be in the shop tomorrow, you could pop out to see if the Southbend Shaper could cut that?


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> If it is hard, then you would have struggled with a HSS slotting tool as well.



I had tested the hub with a file and it didn't seem all that hard but my drill bit and HSS endmill sure didn't like it?


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> Thank-you for answering my wife's question as to why I need two shapers.  (So #2 can fix #1)



Funny the whole time I was putzn with this I was thinking this is a job for a shaper


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## YYCHM (Mar 27, 2021)

@RobinHood , @kevin.decelles thanks for the offers.  If the flats give out I'll be re-visiting the situation as for now it's all back together and the pulleys are turning a lot truer now.


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## historicalarms (Mar 28, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> In my quest to eliminate vibration, I decided to make a new sprocket drive shaft...
> 
> View attachment 13914
> 
> ...



  Farmer fix #-whatever it is up to now-  Craig is there clearance on either side of the gear for a $4 PA "already slotted" pully flange to be welded to it. Slot your shaft to coincide with flange position and your away to the races.
    Second way if no side clearance is avail., could be to reduce shaft dia by 3/16 or so and slot it. Now build a sleeve to snugly fit both gear I.D and shaft O.D. ... now slot the sleeve to accommodate your key size of choice and weld it to the gear at both ends ....should "slide-n-drive" now.


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## YotaBota (Mar 28, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Well, didn't get to far with the drilling......
> 
> View attachment 13926
> 
> ...



The other way would be to find another shaft of the same(ish) hardness as the gear and drill the two. The trick here is finding that hardness of shaft, grade 8 bolt?


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## YYCHM (Jan 27, 2022)

To finish this thread off.  

I acquired a 8" Peerless shaper from @RobinHood (thanks Rudy).  The Gingery was returned to @kevin.decelles for preservation.









						Peerless Shaper Basement Install
					

Well.... the Gingery shaper just wet my appetite for something a little better so...    Monday, I acquired this 8" Peerless shaper from @RobinHood (Thanks Rudy).  Looks innocent enough doesn't it.  It's NOT, it's heavier than all get out.  This is the conclusion after offloading it from the...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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