# So tell me which mill vise to buy??



## GummyMonster (Aug 15, 2021)

Evening everyone,
 Susquatch and I were discussing vises a little. He cleared up a couple things.
 He said that this question would start a §h*tstorm of opinions, bantering and possibly some good natured arguing .
But here goes :
 A quick background. I've had "lessened abilities l (don't like being called disabled , sounds like something that's been made to do nothing. I'm hardly that) for 7.5 years, enough that I'm not really employable. I need to work for myself, set my hours, that kinda deal. My benefits, while definitely helpful, are sad and tiny. Barely enough to get by.
 I actually used the last of my rrsp's to get setup for machinist work, and the bank account is getting pretty slim.
I bought most of my equipment off AliExpress, mostly due to the prices, to get me started learning. I'm working towards a small machine shop and making small runs of niche market upgraded parts to sell.
 I'm fairly tooled up for now.
One thing I don't have is a mill vise.
This is my milling machine : https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000260064562.html

I obviously need a vise for it, and I'm thinking of buying a fairly top shelf one right fronm the start. No having to tweak and polish a cheaper one that'll need replacement eventually anyway.
I like these 2, as their made for benchtop mills.
A Glacern : https://www.glacern.com/gsv_440
And a Kurt - https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-tool-room-sine-vise/

Now is the Kurt 3 times better, since it's basically triple the cost of the Glacern.
I'm open to suggestions, and not set on these two only.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to explain my situation.
Thanks in advance for any help,
Ken


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## John Conroy (Aug 15, 2021)

The Homge vises that Precision Matthews sells get good reviews.  You can order direct from their website.


https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/4-inch-homge-ultra-high-precision-milling-vise-wswivel-base/

If you want a Kurt you might consider a DX4 instead of the much more expensive KTR35.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-dx4-crossover-vise/

I have a DX6 and love it.


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## DPittman (Aug 15, 2021)

Well I've never had a Kurt vise before but I've only heard good things about them as far as the quality goes.  I doubt you will ever be sorry with owning one if you can swing the price.  I've also never owned the super cheap Chinese made milling vises but have looked at some and was not impressed by anything but their low price.  

I ended up buying a KBC "Griplock" branded vise for my main vise  that I believe is the same as the Vertex vise but without the name and considerably cheaper and I think it is a good vice.   I also have a "Groz" multi angle vice that appears to be well made and it looks quite a bit better than some similar other low end Chinese made vises. However  I've read quite mixed opinions on the ""Groz" brand vises.


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## RobinHood (Aug 15, 2021)

I have neither of the brands you list - so can not comment on them.

I do have a newer (‘90s?) GS 6” and an older (’60s) Japanese 6” milling vise. Because the GS is newer, it has less wear and thus performs better than the Japanese one. If I need huge clamping power, the Japanese vise wins. I also have two 4” Allmatic vises from the ‘70s - they have a mechanical force multiplication mechanism and three pre-set torques. They are very rigid and extremely repeatable. I also have a 3” GROZ grinding vise - seems to do the job well.

I do agree 100% with your statement that you should buy the best you can afford right off the bat. It will be money well spent and you will not regret it.


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## GummyMonster (Aug 15, 2021)

Thanks guys,
I haven't heard of some of the brands that you mentioned, so I have more to look at.
 Another thing for my decision is that this vice has to be small, most likely a 4". If things go well, I'm planning to invest in full size Precision Mathews machines, so the 4" vise will see less use. Although it can be used to hold work pieces within bigger vises at odd angles ( saw that on Kurts website).
 Thanks again for the advice,
Ken


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## John Conroy (Aug 15, 2021)

Looks like the KBC Griplock is made by Homge like the Precision Matthews high end vise.

https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/8-251-004


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 15, 2021)

KBC griplock looks like cheap Chinese vise, same as the "precision tool". 

go with brand name - it does not need to be a Kurt. Here you get what you pay for. Go cheap and you have junk. 

Through be aware that if you want Kurt quality it will be difficult to get it much cheaper. Like you can go with Polish vise but do not expect it to be like half the price, just say 30% at most cheaper.  

I am unsure of the table size - but if 6" fits - use that. The 4" is not much cheaper but ... well quite smaller. 8" is overkill and a bit rare to find - also very hard to handle. I think most pp just go with two 6" for larger machine. Or similar setup. 

Remember this is something that is even more important then machine you buy - you can sell machine and upgrade but vise will stay with you. Unless you buy junk and want to get rid of it. 

Brand names are things like Kurt, GS, Toolmex, orange, Glacern, Parlec, Girardi etc. Generally close to kurt in price. Some may not be as good as Kurt. 

See https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ndex2.html?s=9ce71e382a8f80a202cbacf12135b49e


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## PeterT (Aug 15, 2021)

The best advise I can give you is sit down with your machine with a measuring tape & contemplate what you anticipate milling. The vise choices are only meaningful to the available working distance of your mill. The vise grows from the table top so you might lose 4-6" on some of those that are more at home on a Bridgeport, especially with the extra thickness of angle set sub-casting. Then your part goes on top of the vise ways + parallels. Similarly you will likely want to do things on a rotary table. And you may have to mount a chuck or collet plate on top of the RT turntable to physically hold the part. 

Now tooling enters the picture from the quill downward. So install your drill chuck, end mill holder, collet holder.... and typical length/range of cutting tools you use or anticipate using & measure distance. If you are contemplating other tooling in the future most sizes are referenced in catalogs if not already in your possession. The remaining distance, what's left in the middle between the floor & ceiling is maximum thickness your part can be with your mill head fully extended. So if everything works out & you are doing smallish flattish parts you are home free. If not then you have to make compromises. 

One option that works for small machines is what are generically known as grinder vises 3-4" jaw range. They are inexpensive by comparison but generally very good accuracy. Go to Stefan Gotteswinters youtube channel & look at his videos of 2+ years ago when he was using a vise like that on his Optimum? (an RF-45 type mill which I believe is bigger yet than yours). He did a lot of quality work on that. I have a couple which I use for special setups. The only iffy thing can be the detent mechanism. Brand specific, some are OK, but pretty easy to modify improve as I did.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 15, 2021)

Some of these table top machines have huge Z range. I was shocked of the Z range of the RF machines. I mean you have more Z range then many BP clones. Also table shape especially Y can be similar to BP clone - on mine its only 1/2" less then BP2 clone - so a 6" was a very easy choice.


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## GummyMonster (Aug 16, 2021)

Excellent advice.
I actually had that same thought earlier, that I need to sit in front of the mill and measure away. It's a smaller mill, so I need to optimize space.
 I've been looking at the Kurt® CrossOver® Reverse Vise in either 4 or 6". They have a large opening lenght for their size, so I'm sure it would work well on a larger machine once I get there.
 And I'm sure I'll still be using the mill I have for smaller pieces.
My wife wants to be involved, and I know she'd be more comfortable working with the smaller machines.
Ken


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## GummyMonster (Aug 16, 2021)

I happened across these vises . -  https://littlemachineshop.com/info/vise_compare.php
They are small, but with the prices, I could buy a few different ones.
Anyone have experience with these? How is the quality, mainly the flatness and parallelism ( Kurt uses these terms a lot). 
 Basically, are they acceptably accurate for basic work pieces? I'm looking to make oversized bolt knobs, some scope ring upgrades, and other small items to sell for starters. Maybe a Kurt quality vise is way overkill to start off.
Ken
Ken


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## trlvn (Aug 16, 2021)

Can I come at this from a different direction?  What is the highest-precision part you see yourself making?  I think we sometimes get caught up chasing the ultimate in precision when it is, frankly, overkill.  Unless you envision tolerances of better than 2 thous, the vise probably won't be the limiting factor.  I note that you've ordered a smaller benchtop mill:








These are not the most rigid machines in the world and may need a fair amount of fettling* to produce consistent and reliable results.  Quite lightweight at 65 kg.  (Another picture shows the table to be 500 X 140mm or 20 X 5.5 inches.)  It seems to me that a 4 inch import vise isn't going to make things that much worse.  IE, just another component where you need to learn the limitations and how to live with them.

You also mentioned financial constraints.  Maybe if you can make some money on some less-demanding parts now, that would put you in a position to upgrade in the future?

FWIW,

Craig

*I take the approach that inexpensive imports are a "kit" with parts that at a minimum need cleaning and deburring before use.


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## Dabbler (Aug 16, 2021)

I'd use a grinding vise like this on a small machine like that...


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## PeterT (Aug 16, 2021)

The other issue I failed to mention is the typical mill vise mounting lugs requires you to intersect the T-slots of our specific machine. A smaller mill table may or may not play nice compared to a Bridgeport. That bolt position will define where the vise can land in cross slide (Y-axis I think). That may be OK or may work against you depending on part & machining operation. Whereas the grinder style of vise with a continuous rail can be clamped anywhere because side clamps are in the T-slots. Or you can put vise on an angle.

IMO (mainly for the size of your machine) avoid the machine vises with separate angle set casting underneath or at least make sure its removable. Its yet another vertical layer that reduces your working height. They are rarely accurate except on more expensive vises, just crude angle tick marks that you have to validate anyways unless you are just ballparking. And on bad vices they can be out in a planar sense so adversely affecting your main vise angle (been there done that).


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## PeterT (Aug 16, 2021)

This style of grinder vise has through holes vs a rail. I'm actually not sure if that doubles as hold down for pin style clamps. Or if clamping is reserved to the front & rear indentations. You might have to research this more. I prefer the continuous notch rail down the side for this reason but I might not have the full story.


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## PeterT (Aug 16, 2021)

LMS is OK but most of the vise/accessory stuff they are selling is pretty common Asian offerings. So factor in the USA shipping etc. But they seem to be good to deal with. They do have a few things I haven't seen elsewhere like very short length parallels. Not sure if that's an example of private label?


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## YYCHM (Aug 16, 2021)

PeterT said:


> LMS is OK but most of the vise/accessory stuff they are selling is pretty common Asian offerings. So factor in the USA shipping etc. But they seem to be good to deal with. They do have a few things I haven't seen elsewhere like very short length parallels. Not sure if that's an example of private label?



LMS's shipping charges are a killer.


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## Tom Kitta (Aug 16, 2021)

That is mini mill sized machine. For them 4" are very big. I also think a large grinding vise may be the ticket. 

They are small and relatively cheap yet they are precise. You can get them off aliexpress.


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## Dabbler (Aug 16, 2021)

The most important feature of a grinding vise is that they hold the work very well.  Best cost tradeoff for a small mill IMHO.  Stefan Gotteswinter used a 4" one on his small mill for years...

Anything SG does is worth considering.


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## Janger (Aug 16, 2021)

Get out the tape measure and model how big any given vise would be on your mill table. A dx6 etc will be gigantic. Peter outlined the sizing aspects well. Get a grinding vise like dabbler Tom etc advise. On my small mill I have a centering vise from BB. It’s about the right size. Small.


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## PeterT (Aug 16, 2021)

For reference, my prior RF-45 mill was 445mm (17.5") from table to quill bottom with head at max rec height.


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## GummyMonster (Aug 17, 2021)

All this help is awesome and very appreciated.
Decided I'm going to sign up as a premium member as I get a LOT of great advice here, and I don't mind helping a little to keep it up and running.

Back to the vise issue. Yes, I am going to go with a grinding vise. I'll probably buy 2-3 different ones for the price.
 I should be able to improve them a little if needed as far as trueness and smoothness with a little tlc. I've done lots of this actually, buying inexpensive tools and such and improving them with a bit of hands on time.
 Someone mentioned making more basic things to sell as a way to upgrade. That's exactly what I'm planning. There's lots of niche market items a person can make. Especially up here in canada, as well as northern Alberta. So many little things that can't or wont be shipped from the USA.
Ken


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## Mcgyver (Aug 17, 2021)

Someone on a another forum recently checked one of these happy vise (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07GZDP733?psc=1&smid=A34OE2ORYCIEHP&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp) and posted a survey of it - squareness, parallel, etc.  I can think of happier vices and his numbers seemed optimistic, but I just order the 3" version to check out. 

I'll disagree with Dabbler on the grinding vise thing, but he strikes me as an experience chap so I respect his view on it. Me, I find using a grinding vise a PIA for grinding and I don;t think they have the clamping power of a milling vise.  I endure it grinding becuase its probably less than 5% of the time that I'm using the vise, but imo it would really sub-optimal having to use a screwless everytime I want to use the mill.

Granted, my dislike is part because the ones I have are the common type with the pin holes.....the permanent pin and scallop style, e.g. Herman Schmidt, would less frustrating (but if you're buying a Herman Schmidt, cost isn't a big concern, so just buy the 4" Kurt).

The other fantastic vise the old D3, a 3" Kurt vise longer made.  Came across one for $25 so I pounced on it.....just have to get a mill that size now .  They are out there and come up on ebay

I've got a couple of baby mills I'd thought of making a D2 for, but alas have pushed that back until at least lifetime #5


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## Dabbler (Aug 17, 2021)

Several of the grinding vises from Offshore have the moveable pin, which allows adjustment without disassembly.  I should have clarified that particular thing, as @Mcgyver says, the ones that require you to extract the pin and move it to adjust are a pain.

For grinding, only a light touch is required to correctly hold the item.  any more and you can distort the vise jaws or the part.  On my 3 grinding vises, they all use around a 12 pitch thread, so they hold with several  hundreds of pounds of pressure,  that's plenty for a tiny mill like that.

A grinding vise will never hold the pressures against a 3" face mill, but that machine is really only suitable for fly cutting for faces and 1/2" end mills and smaller.. Using larger mills will flex that machine and give you a bad cut anyway.

One can also repurpose a heavy drill press vise like the one below for a small mill like the OP's I am assuming the OP is on a low budget, as larger machines don't cost much more, but enough that economy is dictated.


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## PeterT (Aug 17, 2021)

Just as a data point Accusize has a 4" for 246 CAD. It has a recess in the base as opposed to just through holes, so more forgiving in terms of side clamps. You will probably see this same vise elsewhere but just do the all-in shipping to your door. Accusize is primarily a redistributor of Chinese tooling, sometimes price competitive, sometimes less so. I think I have the smaller one of these, cant recall exactly. If its the one I'm thinking of needed a bit of TLC on the clamp mechanism. Kind of strange, they do precision grinding everywhere & then kind of shortcut the tactile thing you use every single time.
https://accusizetools.com/products/precision-screwless-vises?variant=35245860487322

Herman Schmidt, apparently the gold kryptonite standard.  Maybe its the blueprint basis for clones. I've given up trying to find a used one. This little 1.5" gem a paltry +1000CAD <gulp> Makes Suburban tools look cheap. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/255079236772?hash=item3b63e844a4:g:jOIAAOSwItBhDBhR


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## George (Aug 18, 2021)

Got me a 3 inch vice from eBay free shipping and it’s great looks ok on my mini mill 700x180 a bigger vice would be difficult to mount and be overkill, just saying if your not making parts for NASA why spend that much for a vice. Cheap Chinese mini mills are great but there no Bridgeport’s. My vice can break 4 times before it catches up with the price of a high end vice.
Just to give a perspective view the vice on the left is 4” and right is 3”. The 3” was $99 from eBay with free shipping. It came from Vancouver and only took 5 days to arrive, i also had a 6” vice in my shopping cart and a week later it was offered at a discount price, food for thought.
This is my Milling Machine, mine cost an Extra $50 to have the 700mm bed, the price shown is for the 500mm. Mine is the VL Model with MT 3.
https://wmtcnc.en.alibaba.com/produ...l?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.23.3fa95eb06oD8lq


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## Susquatch (Aug 18, 2021)

PeterT said:


> This style of grinder vise has through holes vs a rail. I'm actually not sure if that doubles as hold down for pin style clamps. Or if clamping is reserved to the front & rear indentations. You might have to research this more. I prefer the continuous notch rail down the side for this reason but I might not have the full story.
> 
> View attachment 16633



The problem with end clamping is that it is hard to get it to line up with two T-slots. I've read that end clamping can also distort the vice. 

I believe that these machinist vices are intended to be used with Pin Clamps.






@Dabbler calls these vises a grinding vise. And they are. However, I've also seen them called screwless vise, toolmakers vise, and machinists vise (my favorite term). I'm sure there are probably many nuances to define each one, but frankly, they all look the same to me. If you get a good one, you have a good one. 

Note that the ones with the tightening screw on an angle have the same impact as a prismatic jaw you and I talked about off line. They pull the work down as they tighten. 

The beauty of these vises is that they are typically very precise AND they can be used as an additional accessory with bigger mills if that ever happens.

I've seen them with nice adjusting systems that don't require pin removal to change the jaw gap. But these were typically more expensive. 

Last but not least, both of mine have small notches (vertical and horizontal) for holding round stock. 






I got both of mine at an auction so I didn't get Clamps with them. But if you do decide to get a new one, you should try to get it with hold down clamps designed to fit it.


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## whydontu (Aug 18, 2021)

I have the older Busy Bee CT129 version of this mill. I use a 5” Busy Bee CXVISE1, it’s the biggest that will fit on the table. It’s crap, but with a bit of fiddling I can get it true in all three planes within a couple of thou. The degree scale is useless. If I’m doing angular stuff I use a digital indicator, a bit chunk of square bar and some trig to get to the angle I need. 

It’s so easy to get tied up with gear we forget it’s the machinist that makes the parts, not the machine.

A quote I ran across a few weeks ago:

Humans have always managed to produce tools and instruments that are more precise, accurate, and more sophisticated than the tools and instruments used to make them.


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## Mcgyver (Aug 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I believe that these machinist vices are intended to be used with Pin Clamps.
> .



I believe they are supposed to be used with a mag chuck (just being a smartass)

I have a big and small mills, so have a want that is maybe not the same as everyone's.  I'm going to use a small mill for small work, so I would like to a jaw height on 2" vise say 1/3 of that of a 6" vise.  But with a grinding vise I get a jaw for a 2" vise that is likely the height as the 6" Kurt. 

the Happy Vise arrived yesterday.   I'm getting to old for happy vices, but you can have a happy vise for $100.    I think its going to be too high a profile for the little BCA mill, the angle lock mechanism eats up a lot of day light.   On that attribute, the grinding vise is probably better.  I still attached to the idea of making a low profile angle lock vise

I'l try to survey the Happy Vice this weekend and report back, but its a busy shop weekend as it is


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I believe they are supposed to be used with a mag chuck (just being a smartass)



Well why not? I've used mine in the Jaws of my much bigger vise whenever I needed to hold something small or something round. It looks goofy, but it works! 

I guess that makes me a smartass  too! 8)


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## Tom O (Aug 19, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I believe they are supposed to be used with a mag chuck (just being a smartass)
> 
> I have a big and small mills, so have a want that is maybe not the same as everyone's.  I'm going to use a small mill for small work, so I would like to a jaw height on 2" vise say 1/3 of that of a 6" vise.  But with a grinding vise I get a jaw for a 2" vise that is likely the height as the 6" Kurt.
> 
> ...


Sounds exotic! So is it really made of cast iorn?


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Sounds exotic! So is it really made of cast iorn?
> 
> View attachment 16697



Never heard of iorn - do they get that from goats? (sorry, couldn't help myself) 

Based on the shape of the base, I'd say it has to be. It isn't a forging. But I don't think of that as exotic. I'd call it "run of the mill" (standard material) for big low-cost mill vises.


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## Mcgyver (Aug 19, 2021)

well it is exotic (foreign) lol.  Big question is how much foreign stuff is in the cast iorn?  We'll see how it measures up, whether its a dream or dud, but I have to say getting a hung of cast iorn ground and to my doorstep for $100 is an accomplishment


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## GummyMonster (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm wondering if this is the same as the happybuy vise: better price - https://www.ebay.com/itm/154390589530


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2021)

GummyMonster said:


> I'm wondering if this is the same as the happybuy vise: better price - https://www.ebay.com/itm/154390589530



I think so. It's seems everybody sells it so I'd guess some shop in Korea (or wherever) makes them for rebranding outfits all over the world.

Here is the happy buy 4" for 130 on amazon that includes the swivel,






And here is my 4" Grizzly. 






I'd say they are the same...... 

FWIW, my grizzly has served me just fine on my big mill/drill. It has LOTS of room for a big vise. 

Without the removable swivel, it's a nice compact and very strong vise for the price.

Edit - sorry, somehow I snagged the photo for the Griz 3". The 4" looks similar but more like the happy buy. The forum editor won't let me change the photo.....


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## GummyMonster (Aug 20, 2021)

No worries about the pic. I found around 12 different vendors on ebay all selling the same 2-3 vise, either unbranded or with different names. I've decided I'm going to buy 2-3 different different styles off there, and I should end up with at least a couple decent quality vises. Maybe all of them will be great.
 My mill isn't a super stable, extremely high precision machine,, so I'm fairly confident that these will work fine. In the end it's up to me to ensure everything is straight and squared up before I start milling, irregardless of the work holding method.
Again, all the advice I've been given is greatly appreciated.
Ken


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