# My first mill is a First mill



## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

Seems like a good time to move the thread here instead of continuing in the Member-Spotted Deals thread.
I figure I'll keep logging my progress here.

This morning's job was getting the head squared away to the table. That meant taking one of my indicator stands apart, turning a shaft to fit both my collets and the indicator stand hardware, and another shaft to hold the test indicator.




The test indicator holder is particularly artisanal. That was the lumpy end of a scrap, cross-drilled and reamed to 4mm to match the indicator shaft, a quick hack-saw cut and then a clamp to hold the indicator firm.  And by clamp, I mean a little pipe cutter I had lying around (red in the previous picture) - somehow my collection of nuts and bolts appears to have migrated to the cottage.  Time to track down a good assorted tray of them.




Once that was done the actual tramming was pretty quick.
Next stop, T-nuts.


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## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

And this afternoon I bought a cheap vise and machinist clamp set, and got the vice trammed in:










Which was followed by...First Chips!
It's a little bit embarrassing on a machine this size pulling out a 1/4" end mill, but until I figure out my 3/8" collet, that's the biggest I have.




And now for a down-side I found on the mill.  The R8 indexing pin in the spindle is missing.  I can feel the orifice where it once went, but I can't put in the 3/8" R8 collet I found for 14$ because it spins as I tighten the draw bar.  
I feel another yak shave in front of me.
Paul


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## David_R8 (Jul 16, 2022)

I don't have an R8 spindle but the pins seem to get sheared off/lost/etc on a regular basis and I haven't read anything that says the pin is 100% necessary.


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## YotaBota (Jul 16, 2022)

@PaulL - Did you get the manual with the mill? The pin shouldn't to difficult to replace.
Did you try giving the 3/8 collet a light tap when tightening to see if it would seat?


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## Tecnico (Jul 16, 2022)

Quote @PaulL :

"My first mill is a First mill"

Hey!  That was my line, LOL!  I guess smart minds think alike.


Tecnico said:


> OK, so that’s a play on words. It is my first mill but it’s also a First LC1 – ½ TM (Long Chang, out of Taiwan).


Tecnico's First Mill



PaulL said:


> And now for a down-side I found on the mill. The R8 indexing pin in the spindle is missing. I can feel the orifice where it once went, but I can't put in the 3/8" R8 collet I found for 14$ because it spins as I tighten the draw bar.
> I feel another yak shave in front of me.



The R8 key you're missing is an M6x1 x 8 dog point grub screw,  that's one of the subtle changes LC made to the machine compared to a BP.  It's locked in place by a flat point grub screw of M6 x 1 x ~6mm (I wrote the length on a scrap of paper that I'd have to hunt for out in the shop right now).  The outer grub screw should be there still but if not let me know and I'll dig deeper.

FYI, I wound up using a bit of Loctite 222 (removable for fasteners up to 1/4") to keep the inner screw from slipping when I locked it with the outer.  I also had to go through my R8 shanks and adjust the depth of the inner screw to fit the one that had the most shallow groove.  The collet holder groove could have been cut a little further down its shank to avoid the slope of the cut.

My source of the grub screws:  Grainger URL.  I could mail you a couple if they're not on the shelf in Victoria.

What's a yak shave?  EDIT:  I Googled and understand.....

What did you pick up for a vise?

D


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## YYCHM (Jul 16, 2022)

Pull your draw bar and make sure the 3/8 collet threads on without binding.  There are two versions of R8 draw bars out there.  One metric and the other imperial.


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## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> @PaulL - Did you get the manual with the mill? The pin shouldn't to difficult to replace.
> Did you try giving the 3/8 collet a light tap when tightening to see if it would seat?


No manual. And First don't seem to ave any online.  But the Sharp manual for a similar clone is pretty clear, and seems to match this machine.  I need one of those pin wrenches to access the pin - I figure I'll make one up in the morning.  Then I can turn a pin if I need to.
I feel like I'm coming up to critical mass.


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## YYCHM (Jul 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> I feel like I'm coming up to critical mass.



Hey, don't panic.


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## Tecnico (Jul 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> No manual. And First don't seem to ave any online. But the Sharp manual for a similar clone is pretty clear, and seems to match this machine.


What is your model/year?  I have hard copies of the manual & illustrated parts list that covers 1987 vintage LC-1/2VS if that's helpful.

Some images of the machines shown in the Sharp manuals are labelled First so I think it's a safe guess that both are Long Chang.

D


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## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Hey, don't panic.


The opposite critical mass - the one where I can make all the parts I need!


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## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> What is your model/year?  I have hard copies of the manual & illustrated parts list that covers 1987 vintage LC-1/2VS if that's helpful.
> 
> Some images of the machines shown in the Sharp manuals are labelled First so I think it's a safe guess that both are Long Chang.
> 
> D


That explains a lot.  The machine is that kind of vintage - the plate is missing?  But to date everything I've looked up in the Sharp manual has been true of the First.


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## PaulL (Jul 16, 2022)

So partial success: I've pulled the bottom of the quill off and gotten access to the pin and its setscrew.  Parts 1424 and 1137.  The pin screw is sheared, and the "special" screw that acts like a lock washer is competely absent.  And those parts I can get shipped to me for the low, low price of 65$ USD.  The shipping is ridiculous.  I don't see a canadian supplier, so I'm guessing I'm going find some plain set screws and machine them into the right shapes.  The only part I can't do right now is the hex wrench socket, so it seems fine to sacrifice a couple of standard grub screws for this.


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## YotaBota (Jul 16, 2022)

Phone the guy you bought it from, maybe his shop has parts that you need and will help out.
It's worth a shot.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Seems like a good time to move the thread here instead of continuing in the Member-Spotted Deals thread.
> I figure I'll keep logging my progress here.
> 
> This morning's job was getting the head squared away to the table. That meant taking one of my indicator stands apart, turning a shaft to fit both my collets and the indicator stand hardware, and another shaft to hold the test indicator.
> ...



Did you tram Nod too?


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> The R8 indexing pin in the spindle is missing. I can feel the orifice where it once went, but I can't put in the 3/8" R8 collet I found for 14$ because it spins as I tighten the draw bar.



I had this problem too. Even worse, the previous owner let it spin and scored a few collets. Thankfully, the spindle was harder than the collets and undamaged.

As others have posted but easy to not fully understand, there are often two grub screws stacked one on top of the otther. One with a turned down nose to fit the collet groove, and one to lock the first grub screw in place.

On a Bridgeport (and my Hartford) you have to remove the spindle nose first. Then you can access the screws. But sometimes that can be difficult. I further shortened the short end of an Allen wrench to get it in there. A bit later, I ground the spindle a bit for much easier access.

You can solve the broken grub screw issue easily. I bought a box of 50 as an offering to the God of Replacement Parts. Ever since they arrived, I have not broken even one.

But seriously, I believe that the lock pin is not there to stop the collet spinning when you work, it's there to stop it from spinning when you tighten the collet. If you tighten the collet with a bit of gronk, it won't spin and you won't break the lock pin.

Edit - I see you already solved many of these problems. I started reading from the top of your thread instead of the bottom. My apologies.

I loved both kinds of critical mass. In fact, I should have said that my box of 50 screws is just one box of standard screws from which I made a few of both of the ones I need. Ya, critical mass...... What a wonderful point in a machinists life......


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Did you tram Nod too?


If by nod you mean front-to-back head tilt (hmm, I guess that's a nod!), yes.  I didn't check front to back of the vice jaws though - thanks for pointing it out.  I'm sure it would have bitten me soon enough


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Edit - I see you already solved many of these problems. I started reading from the top of your thread instead of the bottom. My apologies.


Top-reading or bottom-reading, it's still all useful info and grist for the mill.  

This morning I'll try to find a few grub screws at the local home shop, and failing that will turn some with a slot until a box of 50 shows up ;-)  And then make a little fixture for the lathe to turn the end off the grub.


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## Tecnico (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> That explains a lot. The machine is that kind of vintage - the plate is missing? But to date everything I've looked up in the Sharp manual has been true of the First.


The plate on mine is on the back side of the ram mount, April 1987.

The offer of dog point grub screws is still open, even after using one on the machine & a couple on my dolly I still have 97 left and I can't imaging going through all of them!  I didn't have to mod an Allen wrench, just had to wiggle it a bit.

Critical mass is GREAT!

D


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## mickeyf (Jul 17, 2022)

I find 90% of the metric screws etc I need at Fastener Force on Hillside. Don't need a commercial account, like at Fastenal, and they are happy to sell small quantities, although I think they may have recently implemented a minimum sale - $10, maybe? So by a few extra of something else you may need.


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

mickeyf said:


> I find 90% of the metric screws etc I need at Fastener Force on Hillside. Don't need a commercial account, like at Fastenal, and they are happy to sell small quantities, although I think they may have recently implemented a minimum sale - $10, maybe? So by a few extra of something else you may need.


Fastenal annoy me beyond compare.  I certainly spend enough to match their low end commercial accounts, but they refuse to set up an account for me.
I'll try Fastener Force, who I really should have remembered are a different business.


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## David_R8 (Jul 17, 2022)

I cannot stand Fastenal. I used to deal with them in the US and they were great but I had a commercial account. 
Here I deal with Grainger or Fastener Force.


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## YotaBota (Jul 17, 2022)

I had the same attitude from Fastenal, mind you it's a head office rule not the guys at the counter. 
As for Fastener Force, the only thing I find with them is that you (I) need to take a sample for them to match. I tried to get a 1.5x8tpi nut from them and when I got home it turned out the I.D of the nut was 1.5, it slipped right over the spindle of the SM9 instead of threading on.


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## mickeyf (Jul 17, 2022)

It was several years ago, but I discovered that the company I worked for, who did develop electronics, had an account with Fastenall for our "nuts and bolts". You could walk in and say "I'm with xyz company" and they'd sell to me. (I did run this by our accounting dept first, and they said fine as long as we know it's personal so the accounting does not get confused.) Mostly they didn't even ask for any kind of confirmation - you could have mentioned any well known company and they probably would have sold to you. Not suggesting this is ethical, but the front counter guys may be less fussy than the bean counter guys.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> And then make a little fixture for the lathe to turn the end off the grub.



I typically drill and tap a collar and then spilt it once to take the set screw and then mount the whole thing on the lathe as an assembly. The chuck jaws tighten the split collar onto the grub screw so I can make whatever I need. 

Sometimes it's easier to face a regular nut and then split that the same way. 

Both are plenty accurate enough to hold a grub screw (or any other fastener) properly for turning. 

Some folks just chuck the screw, but I prefer not to risk damaging my jaws. 

You can also use a collet with a piece of pop can to hold the screw in the collet.


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## 140mower (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I typically drill and tap a collar and then spilt it once to take the set screw and then mount the whole thing on the lathe as an assembly. The chuck jaws tighten the split collar onto the grub screw so I can make whatever I need.
> 
> Sometimes it's easier to face a regular nut and then split that the same way.
> 
> ...


The split nut is the method I have been using, just put the split flat between the jaws and tighten.


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## Tecnico (Jul 17, 2022)

Same for me with Fastenal but when they would ask who it was for I'd tell them it was "cash sale" and they'd be happy with that.  I've done that for things they had to bring in as well, actually most things they have to bring in...

I've been using Grainger lately and they prefer to deal B to B (which I have) but they don't save the info unless you want to open an account which I have not.

D


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I didn't have to mod an Allen wrench, just had to wiggle it a bit.



Mine is 1/8 Allen. Junk ones are easy to find and modify. No more wiggling required. 

Here is a modification I made to my spindle to simplify access. Just used a die grinder to make a clearance relief. 






I see it's time to replace the electrical tape I used to improve the contrast against the reflector tape I use to measure rpm. All just temporary till I install an rpm sensor. 

Also the huge nut I modified to make nose removal easy. I don't like pin spanners.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> Same for me with Fastenal but when they would ask who it was for I'd tell them it was "cash sale" and they'd be happy with that.  I've done that for things they had to bring in as well, actually most things they have to bring in...
> 
> I've been using Grainger lately and they prefer to deal B to B (which I have) but they don't save the info unless you want to open an account which I have not.
> 
> D



I have actual accounts at both. But usually just do cash orders anyway. Fastenal is usually 4x as fast though. Both will deliver. But I can get free pickup with Fastenal.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> I had the same attitude from Fastenal, mind you it's a head office rule not the guys at the counter.



Funny how location matters. The small town folks at the Fastenal place in nearby Chatham are awesome!

They will often spend hours for me on a sale they might make pennies on.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> And this afternoon I bought a cheap vise and machinist clamp set


I'm impressed that you found those items (milling vise, etc..)  in Victoria! How'd ya do that??


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Funny how location matters. The small town folks at the Fastenal place in nearby Chatham are awesome!
> 
> They will often spend hours for me on a sale they might make pennies on.


I generally avoid Fastenal, mostly due to having to buy a box of 50 (or whatever the minimum is). However on some items you can order in minimum quantities. My local Fastenal doesn’t need an account but they won’t sell to the general public

I had Bolts Plus price match me a large order and they couldn’t believe how cheap Fastenal quoted me. So whether it’s a loss leader to get a new customer or just crappy quality, I don’t know. 

Brafasco lost me as a customer when they went to a minimum $10 purchase


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## Tecnico (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Mine is 1/8 Allen. Junk ones are easy to find and modify. No more wiggling required.
> 
> Also the huge nut I modified to make nose removal easy. I don't like pin spanners.



Just to spell it out, the First uses an M6x 1 screw that needs an M3 hex key as opposed to the 1/8 for a BP and as it would be also a Hartford.  I started in on the First thinking BP clone until the hex key didn't fit well......

I like your nut pin spanner, more scrounge recycling, not that I have nuts that big in my scrounge pile...

D


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> The R8 key you're missing is an M6x1 x 8 dog point grub screw, that's one of the subtle changes LC made to the machine compared to a BP. It's locked in place by a flat point grub screw of M6 x 1 x ~6mm (I wrote the length on a scrap of paper that I'd have to hunt for out in the shop right now). The outer grub screw should be there still but if not let me know and I'll dig deeper.


Yep, that's exactly the setup.  I have the flat point grub in there still, but not the dog point. Probably got removed by someone who only used larger R8 tools that give you some grip and would be annoying to align.

The vise I got from KMS, for just under $300 after tax.  No-name, 6', rotary base that's now sitting in a drawer, and probably good enough to get me going until I notice I need better.  Seems on par with the cheap vises I could fine online, and I got it same-day.


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> I'm impressed that you found those items (milling vise, etc..)  in Victoria! How'd ya do that??


KMS tools have much more interesting stock since their big remodel.  The machinist section is still a dog's breakfast, but George there can usually find what you're looking for while telling you that it's on the list of departments to get to soon...


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## PaulL (Jul 17, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Also the huge nut I modified to make nose removal easy. I don't like pin spanners.


I see your pin spanner replacement, and raise you last night's monstrosity:




Yes, I'll make a proper one before I damage the pin holes in the nut, says he in retrospect.  The holes are fine.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I generally avoid Fastenal, mostly due to having to buy a box of 50 (or whatever the minimum is). However on some items you can order in minimum quantities. My local Fastenal doesn’t need an account but they won’t sell to the general public
> 
> I had Bolts Plus price match me a large order and they couldn’t believe how cheap Fastenal quoted me. So whether it’s a loss leader to get a new customer or just crappy quality, I don’t know.
> 
> Brafasco lost me as a customer when they went to a minimum $10 purchase



Fastenal has always allowed me to buy low quantities as long as I was willing to wait. If I wanted it fast, I had to order a whole box at whatever quantity that was. I've never dealt with those other outfits.


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## Susquatch (Jul 17, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I like your nut pin spanner, more scrounge recycling, not that I have nuts that big in my scrounge pile...



Most farmers have big nuts.

Even if you don't, you can get them at a farm supply place or anyplace that has big equipment. 

The nice thing about nuts that big is that they are easy to get a grip on with the right socket.


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## Tecnico (Jul 17, 2022)

Ha Ha, we have big nuts out this way too but usually they come from the offshore/marine sector.  I don't have any of that gear laying around though but I can cobble something up on short notice, especially now that I have a milling machine!

D


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## VicHobbyGuy (Jul 17, 2022)

PaulL said:


> KMS tools have much more interesting stock since their big remodel.  The machinist section is still a dog's breakfast, ....


IMO it's been a long and steady downhill slide since they decamped from Colwood some years back.... I still can't find what I'm looking for, even though they have reduced the inventory quite a lot. In the 'olden days'they had a big clearance section, for instance and a big display of stationary tools. And don't get me started on their online order 'system'..been there, done that, and hopefully learned my lesson..  
Back to our regular programming....


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## David_R8 (Jul 17, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> IMO it's been a long and steady downhill slide since they decamped from Colwood some years back.... I still can't find what I'm looking for, even though they have reduced the inventory quite a lot. In the 'olden days'they had a big clearance section, for instance and a big display of stationary tools. And don't get me started on their online order 'system'..been there, done that, and hopefully learned my lesson..
> Back to our regular programming....


You need to strike up a relationship with Jeff, the store manager. He's bent over backwards to help me.


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## Dabbler (Jul 17, 2022)

I'm glad you are replacing the pin:  its job is to hold the collet against the tightening forces of the nut, but not to stop the collet from spinning.  That is the taper's job...

Fastenal in Calgary has stopped doing business with individuals and small accounts.  I have complained to the regional manager, and got nowhere...  (I just talked with a friend of the regional manager (again)  and he's going to hear about it  on Monday...)


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## whydontu (Jul 17, 2022)

Speaking as a person with a background in industrial sales, small cash sales are a PITA. However, all money tastes the same, and I know a lot of mega-$$$ accounts I handled that started out as someone making widgets in their garage. 

If I get good service when I buy a small cash order, the vendor gets on my list of places to try when I’m ordering machinery or supplies for my much larger company orders.


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## Dabbler (Jul 17, 2022)

@whydontu I was refused a 200$ order that was sitting right there at the desk, waiting for my credit card.  I had an account, and they deleted it right there, in front of me.

From my perspective, I just shrugged and bought my grinding wheels from KBC and had them shipped.  Saved about 25$.

Possibly small cash sale was 200$, but now I have found alternate suppliers for all my other needs.  They lost several thousands of $ of business in the past 2-3 years.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Jul 17, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> You need to strike up a relationship with Jeff, the store manager. He's bent over backwards to help me.


Sorry, but I'd rather not spend my money at a place where I need to 'strike up a relationship' with the manager to get acceptable service. KMS: where the employees are always 'going on their break' or 'not working in this area' or just can't be bothered to get off their chair when I ask for help. I shop there when I must.


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## whydontu (Jul 17, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @whydontu I was refused a 200$ order that was sitting right there at the desk, waiting for my credit card.  I had an account, and they deleted it right there, in front of me.
> 
> From my perspective, I just shrugged and bought my grinding wheels from KBC and had them shipped.  Saved about 25$.
> 
> Possibly small cash sale was 200$, but now I have found alternate suppliers for all my other needs.  They lost several thousands of $ of business in the past 2-3 years.


Ouch. That’s beyond stupid. So no sales, no money, but they had already used their resources to prep the order.

A couple of decades of training counter sales people has proven to me that some sales people can’t sell. And don’t understand the golden rule.


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## Chicken lights (Jul 17, 2022)

whydontu said:


> Ouch. That’s beyond stupid. So no sales, no money, but they had already used their resources to prep the order.
> 
> A couple of decades of training counter sales people has proven to me that some sales people can’t sell. And don’t understand the golden rule.


Like a lot of things, most parts guys/counter guys are getting hard to find good ones. I don’t know if it’s a lack of experience or training....but holy moly if I hand you a shopping list of 100 pieces to count out and bag (bolts/nuts/washers).... you should NOT be gone in the back for 20 minutes 

That’s not even selling, that’s just counting pieces to put in bags


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## Dusty (Jul 17, 2022)

Clerks or jerks that's the question. Six years back when my right knee started giving me lots of grief I was in a 'Dollar Store' here in Moose Jaw. To save time and my wandering around the store I asked the cashier where they kept pipe cleaners. Now this gal of about 20 years with shrapnel piercings all over her ears, nose and face and goodness knows where else rolled her eyes back in her head as if she could see the moon then replied;

"I think you need to go to a plumbing shop for that".  Yikes, and they breed.

Thanking her I wondered around the store finally in the crafts section I found a selection of pipe cleaners in multiple colors, sizes and lengths. Returning to checkout (same clerk) I paid for my packet of pipe cleaners casually mentioning that these were pipe cleaners. Without hesitation she again rolled her eyes back in her head looking for something. I promptly left the store fearful she might place a spell on me and I'd become a frog.

Laughing my fool head off.  True story!


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## VicHobbyGuy (Jul 18, 2022)

Dusty said:


> Clerks or jerks that's the question.


Here's another story from Victoria at Fastener Force which had been my recommended alternative to Fastenal until this event: When I got the lathe (6 months ago) it was the impetus for getting some metric fasteners on hand. I needed some M6 fasteners so (as had been my habit) I emailed the list (socket cap screws in several lengths, nuts, washers - all in decent quantities of 25-50 pcs- a $40-50 order) to the owner/manager (?) and next morning got a reply to pick up the order. 20 minute drive from my place to the store. Still 100% COVID aware, I was glad that they had restriction on customer numbers (2 at a time in the tiny pickup area) so I paid with my credit card, and skedaddled with my parcel of fasteners. Got home, opened the package and found that the nuts were M8. Checked my order to make sure it wasn't my mistake, and then contacted the store. "Bring em back and we'll have the right ones for you." So far, so good. So back I go. This time I got a 20-something young man at the counter (owner's son ??). We swapped packages and he rolled his eyes and said: "There; that should be perfect NOW" - as if it were unreasonable that the nuts should match the screws, no 'sorry for the mistake' or similar, which I thought strange. My reply was something like: "Yup, except for the hour I have wasted driving back and forth." No rant. His reply- looking straight into my 70+ y.o. face: "If you are going to give me attitude I will take away the discount we have given you!"
My inner voice wisely counseled me to just walk away. 
BTW, their 'discounted' prices to me have alwys been  more than I was paying at Fastenal until that company decided to stop dealing with ordinary humans and focus on 'business only' sales.

I SO wish McMaster Carr would open a Canadian warehouse operation.


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## David_R8 (Jul 18, 2022)

It's pretty simple to register a business name in BC and then you can order from McMaster. I did it a few years back and have placed more than a few orders from MMC. Their stuff is not cheap but the service is outstanding.


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 18, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> It's pretty simple to register a business name in BC and then you can order from McMaster. I did it a few years back and have placed more than a few orders from MMC. Their stuff is not cheap but the service is outstanding.


I have special screws coming from McMaster Carr.  Theoretically tomorrow that I ordered late last night.  Purolator Tracking says it's already at the Hamilton Ont. airport.  Now if I could only get the Deutsch connectors that the screws go into as quickly.
I've also had good success with Spaenaur 




__





						Spaenaur - Fasteners Right Now
					

Spaenaur carries over 60,000 unique fastener products and tools, custom packaged for individual orders, Spaenaur hard-to-find products, in-stock now.




					spaenaur.com


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## David_R8 (Jul 18, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I have special screws coming from McMaster Carr.  Theoretically tomorrow that I ordered late last night.  Purolator Tracking says it's already at the Hamilton Ont. airport.  Now if I could only get the Deutsch connectors that the screws go into as quickly.
> I've also had good success with Spaenaur
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for jogging my memory on Spaenaur, I remembered a company with an unusual name but for the life of me could not dig it out of the deep dark recesses.


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## PaulL (Jul 18, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I've also had good success with Spaenaur


I used them a lot when I was in Kitchener.  A pleasure.


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## Dabbler (Jul 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I've also had good success with Spaenaur



I have ordered quite a bit from them.  They are especially good if you are ordering in bigger batches.  A fave.


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## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

@jcdammeyer @Dabbler @David_R8 @PaulL 

Never heard of Spaenaur. 

THANK YOU!


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## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I have special screws coming from McMaster Carr. Theoretically tomorrow that I ordered late last night.



I only recently discovered I already had a MC business account I must have setup a few years ago. I have not used them yet because I was afraid of long shipping delays coming from the USA. Did you pay for faster shipping?


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## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I only recently discovered I already had a MC business account I must have setup a few years ago. I have not used them yet because I was afraid of long shipping delays coming from the USA. Did you pay for faster shipping?


My experience is that regular shipping is plenty fast. With KBC upping its minimum shipping costs MMC is more attractive.


----------



## jcdammeyer (Jul 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I only recently discovered I already had a MC business account I must have setup a few years ago. I have not used them yet because I was afraid of long shipping delays coming from the USA. Did you pay for faster shipping?


Since this is work-work the shipping is automatically Purolator.  The screw order was $175US or so with GST and shipping was about $25.  I placed the order near midnight Sunday so the east coast would have it at 7AM or so their time.  Shipped that day.  Tracking shows it in Victoria sorting facility this morning.  Likely be delivered some time today.

That lets me finish assembling the last two power supplies and will then have on hand the balance of the stainless screws needed for the other 20 units if the Deutsch connectors ever arrive this year.  The heatsink is custom machined by a local machine shop down the street and is black anodized in Vancouver.  The box for it is made in Salmon arm.


----------



## YotaBota (Jul 19, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> With KBC upping its minimum shipping costs MMC is more attractive.


My last purchase with KBC I whined about the cost of shipping and they dropped it back to $12.


----------



## jcdammeyer (Jul 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> The heatsink is custom machined by a local machine shop down the street and is black anodized in Vancouver.  The box for it is made in Salmon arm.


I thought about making the heatsinks myself.  In fact I 3D printed the first model.  Took a trial with a slitting saw to see how it would work on a casting.   Ended up machining an old PC heatsink to the correct size to test things.  But in the end, although  very expensive, was easier to have a shop do the work.  I watched their HAAS machine create one.  Pretty cool.


----------



## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

Nice work John!


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I thought about making the heatsinks myself.  In fact I 3D printed the first model.  Took a trial with a slitting saw to see how it would work on a casting.   Ended up machining an old PC heatsink to the correct size to test things.  But in the end, although  very expensive, was easier to have a shop do the work.  I watched their HAAS machine create one.  Pretty cool.



Nice!


----------



## jcdammeyer (Jul 19, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> Nice work John!


Thanks.  

This project used all the different modern techniques for building crap.  PC boards exported as STP files imported into Alibre for modeling fit.  The box was actually designed by the client but we worked together to ensure it fit.  Those drawings went out to Valid Manufacturing in Salmon Arm (the same company that fabricated the Olympic Rings back in 2009).  They make the boxes, powder coat and add the labels.  I do final assembly.

That first heatsink was milled on my CNC router form the PC heat sink since I didn't have CNC on the mill 4 years ago.  That spray booth I mentioned is for conformal coating the boards so moisture and dust don't short circuit things.


----------



## PaulL (Jul 19, 2022)

Ok, I've started shopping for a DRO for the First.  
AliExpress being my friend, I have now gotten to this unit with this pricing/shipping:


> This order includes one piece 3-axis DRO with 2pcs linear scales, travel length are 200*500*1200mm. The accuracy is 5um.  The total price is 305USD. Free Shipping via FedEx


Am I going in the right direction?


----------



## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

@PaulL I would recommend getting an LCD display as opposed to a segmented LED.
The ease of programming things like bolt circles is much improved with the LCD models because they can display what's being asked instead of relying on cryptic numeric codes.
I have the 3-axis version of this model and the display is excellent and programming is easy.


----------



## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

I've also seen this one used.


----------



## PaulL (Jul 19, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> I've also seen this one used.


Any thoughts on touchscreen vs membrane buttons?  The price difference seems minor.


----------



## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Any thoughts on touchscreen vs membrane buttons?  The price difference seems minor.


I prefer membrane switches for the positive action of press and click. That said I have to steady the bottom of the display because the pivot isn't stiff enough to resist the pressure of pushing the button. I could remedy this by moving the base that holds the arm so that it's directly behind the display as compared to off to the side.
(I hope that last bit makes sense)


----------



## jcdammeyer (Jul 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I have special screws coming from McMaster Carr.  Theoretically tomorrow that I ordered late last night.  Purolator Tracking says it's already at the Hamilton Ont. airport.  Now if I could only get the Deutsch connectors that the screws go into as quickly.
> I've also had good success with Spaenaur
> 
> 
> ...


Just arrived via Purolator.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Ok, I've started shopping for a DRO for the First.
> AliExpress being my friend, I have now gotten to this unit with this pricing/shipping:
> 
> Am I going in the right direction?



I am not familiar with that model or make so I can't speak for it. 

My browser comes up 298 Cdn + 35 Cdn Shipping. If you are happy with that you can start haggling for magnetic scales etc. Those sellers on Ali are all totally used to haggling. If they happen to be in Shenzen, they were born hagglers cuz that's pretty much all they do there is haggle. A Chinese friend of mine from near Shenzen told me that they laugh at people who pay asking price.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Any thoughts on touchscreen vs membrane buttons?  The price difference seems minor.


Membrane. 

You can fix it yourself if ever needed. I hold the bottom edge like @David_R8 .

Who wants greasy finger marks all over their screen. 

Plus 10 for LCD.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

@PaulL - you could also try starting with this Ditron and then haggle your way to include scales etc

C$ 230.51  6%OFF | Dro 2 Axis/3 Axis/4 Axis Digital Readout ,DB9 TTL Siganl Digital Display RPM Function with Hall Sensor








						216.59C$ 15% OFF|Dro 2 Axis/3 Axis/4 Axis Digital Readout ,db9 Ttl Siganl Digital Display Rpm Function With Hall Sensor - Level Measuring Instruments - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					a.aliexpress.com
				




I have a Ditron 4 axis like this with magnetic scales on my mill and I have zero complaints. It's a very nice unit.


----------



## Tecnico (Jul 19, 2022)

Just to pipe up here, I'm on the fence so far:  Ditron or Touch DRO (Yuriy's Toys).

I like the idea that a bunch of forum members have the Ditron and speak highly of it and that we have a critical mass to trade info. On the other hand I think it might be a case of if anything goes wrong with the hardware (display not scales) it might just have to be replaced because it's a closed system from China so support is likely to be minimal. 

What could go wrong?  For one the tactile switches.  I have a premium model, name brand appliance with the tactile switches and the most used ones are falling apart.  I've seen similar on other equipment that is well used.  I've also seen switch bounce in another application after some use so I'm wary of putting my eggs in that basket.

On the other hand I see our latest member @Lanis3333 is planning on using a standard Android tablet with a Touch DRO system.  I've browsed that option and it looks worth understanding before a decision is made.  A big plus there is hardware is not custom and is mass produced on a scale orders of magnitude greater than the DRO market meaning it should be more mature/reliable plus failure is easily recoverable.  The uncertainty with that system depends on the long term commitment of Yuri, the entrepreneur behind the system.  This is in no way implying any sign of lack of commitment.

 In either case I believe the scales would or could be identical which takes them out of the equation.

Just pondering right now......

D


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 19, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> Just to pipe up here, I'm on the fence so far:  Ditron or Touch DRO (Yuri's Toys).
> 
> I like the idea that a bunch of forum members have the Ditron and speak highly of it and that we have a critical mass to trade info. On the other hand I think it might be a case of if anything goes wrong with the hardware (display not scales) it might just have to be replaced because it's a closed system from China so support is likely to be minimal.
> 
> ...



I believe your assessment is actually spot on with two small exceptions. The Ditron is a turnkey solution and the cost of a replacement Ditron Screen Unit is under 300 and could be less with haggling. 

Future units might be less or more - who knows. If my membrane switches go, I'll repair them or replace them with buttons. (I say that boldly based on repairing similar systems but admit I could get a nasty surprise when I open up the unit). If they are not repairable or if the whole screen unit goes, I'll simply replace it. Or go with something else compatible with my scales. 

In other words, yes it's not free but it's not cause for a nervous breakdown either. 

That is not an argument against the Yuri system. It's just to say that the Ditron is not a dead end issue. 

I'd love to see a member pull together a Yuri system for all of us to see.


----------



## Tecnico (Jul 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> That is not an argument against the Yuri system. It's just to say that the Ditron is not a dead end issue.
> 
> I'd love to see a member pull together a Yuri system for all of us to see.


I think you've captured the big picture, the tactile switches might be ad-hoc repairable but if that's too big a PITA then the console goes in the recycling and another gets hooked to the scales.  What I've seen under the hood on the tactile switches is they were integrated in a flex circuit with laminated plastic overlays so fixing that might be awkward.  

My experience with tactile switches hasn't shown stellar reliability so along with the promise of a more capable user interface/features Touch DRO would put that problem off the table.

I agree, it would be interesting to follow along as a member brings a Touch DRO on stream and get likes/dislikes on how it handles in practice.

D


----------



## David_R8 (Jul 19, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> I think you've captured the big picture, the tactile switches might be ad-hoc repairable but if that's too big a PITA then the console goes in the recycling and another gets hooked to the scales.  What I've seen under the hood on the tactile switches is they were integrated in a flex circuit with laminated plastic overlays so fixing that might be awkward.
> 
> My experience with tactile switches hasn't shown stellar reliability so along with the promise of a more capable user interface/features Touch DRO would put that problem off the table.
> 
> ...


I recommend that you go to Hobby Machinist as Yuriy has a dedicated sub-forum there. He's very responsive.


----------



## jcdammeyer (Jul 19, 2022)

Yikes.  My text vanished.  Try again.
I have two DRO-350's, one as a kit of parts and PC board and the other assembled and installed on my mill.  It takes the caliper type protocol.  THe DRO-550's apparently could handle more than the caliper protocol and I have one assembled but no connectors yet.  The other is partially assembled without displays or connectors.
Not sure what I will do with these.


----------



## neer724 (Jul 20, 2022)

David_R8 said:


> I've also seen this one used.
> View attachment 25052




I definitely recommend the LCD type DRO - very easy to read and use.

Here is my install:

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/yet-another-dro-install-king-kc-20vs-2.4866/


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 20, 2022)

Tecnico said:


> Just to pipe up here, I'm on the fence so far:  Ditron or Touch DRO (Yuriy's Toys).
> 
> I like the idea that a bunch of forum members have the Ditron and speak highly of it and that we have a critical mass to trade info. On the other hand I think it might be a case of if anything goes wrong with the hardware (display not scales) it might just have to be replaced because it's a closed system from China so support is likely to be minimal.
> 
> ...



I was out in the shop "playing" with my mill just now and realized there is a piece of advice I didn't give you.

Install the display before the scales.....

Maybe that's obvious but maybe not. The reason for doing that is of course so you can test your scales as you install them. But there is a more important advantage too.

If you install the screen first, you can actually use each DRO, as it is finished, to make subsequent brackets! What an amazing experience. Makes you smile from ear to ear as you add each axis one at a time!

Like you, I custom made each of my read head brackets. I didn't use any of the factory supplied bracketry. Making each bracket as I installed each scale became more and more satisfying as I progressed.

Here is a link to my install. It shows each of the brackets, where I put them, and why. It will be different for your mill but still worth the watch. Might give you some ideas.

Just skip over all the undrillobillium stuff. You won't have that problem.

Thread 'Installing a DRO on a Hartford Bridgeport Clone.' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/installing-a-dro-on-a-hartford-bridgeport-clone.4852/


----------



## PaulL (Jul 22, 2022)

Thanks to @Tecnico who sent me some dog nose grub screws - my R8 collets no longer spin and I can hold my 3/8" end mills!


----------



## Dusty (Jul 23, 2022)

Fastenal in Moose Jaw sucks badly and I'm really trying to be kind with this statement. 

Purchase a bag of 50 or 100 then get lost. But I only need six A-hole. Just saying!


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## Tecnico (Jul 23, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Thanks to @Tecnico who sent me some dog nose grub screws - my R8 collets no longer spin and I can hold my 3/8" end mills!


My pleasure, gives me the opportunity to pay forward the kindness shown to me by other forum members!

D


----------



## Tecnico (Jul 23, 2022)

Dusty said:


> Fastenal in Moose Jaw sucks badly and I'm really trying to be kind with this statement.
> 
> Purchase a bag of 50 or 100 then get lost. But I only need six A-hole. Just saying!



I get where you're coming from, there's got to be a reasonable compromise.  That said, I picked up a bag of 100 for $5.74 at my local Acklands Grainger without getting the attitude some other unnamed places give. It looks like they have locations splattered all over the map, two in Halifax even!

I don't need a bag of 100 but it's better than buying a bubble pack of four of unknown origin & quality at CTC for $3.95 (if they actually carried them in M6 x 1).

Since I have a bag full I also built a couple of them into my mill dolly and whenever I need to design in a dog point screw they're there on the shelf.

D


----------



## Degen (Jul 26, 2022)

Fastenal, Brafasco, Bolts+ just name a few (Grainger falls in in with McMasterCarr) are seller that have considerable markup think 200% and up, they have realized in Canada they have an extremely captive market and have no problem in gouging.  Why do I know, they buy from some of the same suppliers I do, thoiugh I am not as big as account as they are, I know the difference in pricing in some cases $0.05 distributor vs $0.50 reseller per pc.

So all I can say judge accordingly, convenience or cost.  For me thats the difference between making money or starving.

Shop wisely, you'll be surprised at the savings that can be found.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 5, 2022)

So I got to doing a bit of milling last night, and the power feed was klunking something awful.  It started a few days ago, when engaging the power feed.  Last night, it was hanging up with the handwheel.  Fine, I thought, probably the spring isn't returning the drive propertly or something; I can check it out.  Plus the unit's electric cords are pretty perrished, so I'll replace those.
Here's the patient on the table:







We'll make some careful incisions, and...






The lift mechansim has a fair bit of slop, which might be enough to be having it hang up laterally when engaging.  I don't see any particular wear arount its hinge, so I expect the problem is in the central spring and transmission column.  It's mess, and there's a bunch of grit in the grease.  I've cleaned that up some, but I'm hesitant to pop the roll pin that hold the clutch wheel at the top of the stack.  I'll likely repack it and try it like that.
Next was to break it down far enough to get to the electrics: Of course all the wires are coming in under the motor, and everything appears to run on line voltage.  So there's a ridiculously tight rat's nest of 18 and 20ga wires in there, all bundled carefully with zip ties:





The power comes in at the front of this next image, and the limit shut-off at the back.  Of course the power cable can *almost* come out easily - two of the three conductors go to a murette or a ground screw.  And the third one goes to a 2 post connector (the white wire below), and I'm going to have to find the right fitting to crimp on the new wire to get it back in the block.  Days of delay for a 2 cent part.  Yay.





The control cabling requires the same connector fittings, and that cable is just as perished, and is also running mains current through.  So I'll make sure to orde 20 cents worth of the little crimpers.
Of course, I have no idea if I'll be able to fit all the wires back into the box when I'm done ;-)
And looking very quickly, I could just replace the unit for $210, including free shipping: https://www.vevor.ca/power-feed-c_1...110v-5-8-shaft-variable-speeds-p_010206704752

Nobody (um, everybody) warned me that machining is a costly hobby ;-)


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 5, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Here's the patient on the table:





PaulL said:


> We'll make some careful incisions, and...





PaulL said:


> So there's a ridiculously tight rat's nest of 18 and 20ga wires in there, all bundled carefully with zip ties:





PaulL said:


> Of course the power cable can *almost* come out easily - two of the three conductors go to a murette or a ground screw. And the third one goes to a 2 post connector (the white wire below), and I'm going to have to find the right fitting to crimp on the new wire to get it back in the block. Days of delay for a 2 cent part. Yay.



All absolutely hilariously written. Too funny. 

But ya, too sad too. Glad you can laugh at it! 

I have not yet pulled the trigger on an X-Axis feed for my mill. If you do go that way, I'll be interested to follow how it goes.


----------



## YYCHM (Aug 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> All absolutely hilariously written. Too funny.
> 
> But ya, too sad too. Glad you can laugh at it!
> 
> I have not yet pulled the trigger on an X-Axis feed for my mill. If you do go that way, I'll be interested to follow how it goes.


Check this out....  









						I bought the cheapest Y axis power feed I could find for my milling machine.
					

I paid $160 tax in from Vevor Canada.  https://vevor.ca/products/power-feed-y-axis-135lbs-200rpm-torque-for-bridgeport-type-milling-machine-110v?_pos=1&_sid=4b4240a60&_ss=r  The kit was very complete and installed with no issues. It seems to work fine so far. Less than half the price I paid for...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


----------



## Tecnico (Aug 5, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Next was to break it down far enough to get to the electrics: Of course all the wires are coming in under the motor, and everything appears to run on line voltage. So there's a ridiculously tight rat's nest of 18 and 20ga wires in there, all bundled carefully with zip ties



Hah!  That looks like deja-vu all over again!  That looks exactly like the drive on my First and it had the same black greasy mess inside and the same 35 year old decayed wires, no Marettes though.  I was able to make connections at the soldered joints in most cases although I confess I spliced/shrink sleeved a couple of the places where the wires were too buried to safely get at the solder joint so I side-stepped identifying the connector crimps.  Oh, line voltage for mine is 110V.

Looks like you're doing it right and taking plenty of pictures as you go, good idea, experience with mine says go back and take more.  There's just so much stuffed in the packege!

 I've got to update my First thread, I describe the re-work in my draft.

I replaced the cables with material rated for German railroad application and subbed the strain reliefs because mine were too tired.  The cables have thinner/less bulky insulation (better insulation, higher voltage rating) but the same conductor area.  I also replaced the neon power lamp because it was all blackened inside and replaced the oil tight cap over the full speed override button.  The cap was in the same state as yous.  All the electrical materials came from Digikey except the push button boot which I had in an APM Hexseal sample pack.  The P/N might be C1231/42, if so, Digikey stocks them.

Of course replacing the cables opened another can or worms at the limit switch.....that was a compressed, ridiculously tight rat's nest of wires with residue of the same old brown varnish/cutting oil etc.  In the end I also had to replace the coil spring inside.  More Grainger.  I had to buy a lifetime supply of spring stock (for peanuts) to get the right size but it worked out fine, I was lucky to find the spring size off the shelf.  Need some spring? LOL!  I also made a proper gasket for the cover.

If you'd like a rundown of the part numbers I ordered let me know.  Oh, if you decide to turf the Align power feed, let's talk about spare parts. 

D


----------



## PaulL (Aug 15, 2022)

And package one of two just arrived:





I negotiated for the long one being magnetic, and got a decent deal ($365 including LCD DRO head, including shipping), and then all three scales showed up magnetic!  I must not have talked it down quite low enough.
Now I'm just waiting for the display unit to show up!


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> I must not have talked it down quite low enough.



I am totally convinced that magnetic is actually lower cost to make. But since it's newer, they can charge more. And they prolly have old stock on the older technology. Therefore, you prolly got a decent price. 365 is very good. 

My two boxes arrived the same day. Your second box will prolly be there today.


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

When I click on your photo @PaulL , it looks like this:






It also scrolls in top of the photo. What the heck is all that?


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

Sorry for the multiple posts @PaulL , brain isn't really going yet. Or maybe it just doesn't go anymore! 

When you say you negotiated, did you start high and work them down or did you start with a low sale price and add features? I got a lot of questions on my method (started low and added features) but I always thought the other approach ought to work too. Just curious which way worked for you.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> It also scrolls in top of the photo. What the heck is all that?


What browser are you using?  I can't reproduce this effect in MacOS Chrome or on my android phone or on my chromebook.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> When you say you negotiated, did you start high and work them down or did you start with a low sale price and add features?


I started on features - requesting prices for the various DRO head choices, shipping, etc.  Did this with 3 vendors, waiting a while between.  Only once did I need to share another vendor's price to have them stabilize at about the same place.  Then I went for the longest scale, requesting pricing for magnetic at both 1um and 5um resolutions.  Rolled it back to 5um, and got a price I could accept.  The presented order text said optical though, and I called them on it, and all three axes arrived magnetic. I was only expecting the longest to be magnetic, and this speaks to your thoughts about cost of goods vs recency, @Susquatch.

Paul


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> What browser are you using?  I can't reproduce this effect in MacOS Chrome or on my android phone or on my chromebook.



I am using Chrome on an Android.  Never saw that before. I could check other browsers and the app later.

Does it look like your file name?


----------



## YYCHM (Aug 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Never saw that before. I could check other browsers and the app later.


I've been seeing this with @PaulL 's image posts for quite some time now.  I'm running Win10 and Chrome.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I am using Chrome on an Android.  Never saw that before. I could check other browsers and the app later.
> 
> Does it look like your file name?


That's the text I see when I long-press on android.  And when I inspect the image in a full-scale browser, I see that the text is the thing Google appears to have created to hand the image to the BBS when I use copy-and-paste of the image instead of uploading.  So in some sense it's the "filename".  
And digging into generate html for the page, I see that blot of text as the image title, with the source as a proxy to Google's image hosting service.
No idea yet how to not have it just make a big mess on the image, but I'll poke at it as I post more pictures.


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> That's the text I see when I long-press on android.  And when I inspect the image in a full-scale browser, I see that the text is the thing Google appears to have created to hand the image to the BBS when I use copy-and-paste of the image instead of uploading.  So in some sense it's the "filename".
> And digging into generate html for the page, I see that blot of text as the image title, with the source as a proxy to Google's image hosting service.
> No idea yet how to not have it just make a big mess on the image, but I'll poke at it as I post more pictures.



The fact that @YYCHM sees it too gives me some better understanding. Try uploading instead of cut and paste or drag N drop.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> The fact that @YYCHM sees it too gives me some better understanding. Try uploading instead of cut and paste or drag N drop.


Except that cut-and-paste is way more convenient...  I'll work on it!


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 16, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Except that cut-and-paste is way more convenient...  I'll work on it!



I can see that. I only have upload on my phone so I don't know the difference.


----------



## PaulL (Aug 18, 2022)

Like the man sings: Two out of three ain't bad:





I made up a little locking stud to sit in the nubbin on the side of the mill that probably held something similar in the past.  
X was very straightforward.  Had a little block of aluminium lying around that made a good standoff.  The angle bracket came with the "kit".  Just needed trimming and tapping.  I probably need an second point of contact instead of that one cap screw holding it together, but I'll assure myself I'm happy with the setup before putting another hole in the y-slide.





Y was a little trickier, but easier to make up.  Just a little extender for the bracket, a bunch of threaded holes and cap screws.  The holes under the X-slide were already there, 1/4-20, so I grabbed my (only?!) 1/4-20 screw to hold it in place.  I'll drill another hole there once I'm satisfied, and trade the screw for a proper cap screw.





Z I'm still thinking about.  A lot of plumbing and faired surfaces all around getting in the way.  Probably still easy, but I've had enough for tonight.


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Like the man sings: Two out of three ain't bad:
> 
> I made up a little locking stud to sit in the nubbin on the side of the mill that probably held something similar in the past.
> X was very straightforward.  Had a little block of aluminium lying around that made a good standoff.  The angle bracket came with the "kit".  Just needed trimming and tapping.  I probably need an second point of contact instead of that one cap screw holding it together, but I'll assure myself I'm happy with the setup before putting another hole in the y-slide.
> ...



Your mill looks the same as mine. I used some epoxy filler to level out my base for the Z scale. I am still working on my Z2 - Quill scale. It's not really necessary but why not? Does your dro box have a 4th DB9 plug on the back? 

Here is a link to my install - just skip over all the undrillobillium stuff. I think my Z - axis turned out great. 

Thread 'Installing a DRO on a Hartford Bridgeport Clone.' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/installing-a-dro-on-a-hartford-bridgeport-clone.4852/


----------



## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I used some epoxy filler to level out my base for the Z scale.


I might yet.  I think I can move the scale back on the knee far enough to be clear of obstructions and wind up with an easier time mounting the sensor to the curves of the body.


Susquatch said:


> Does your dro box have a 4th DB9 plug on the back?


No, it's perhaps a little too cost-optimized.  I'm pretty sure I could open it up and run another DB9 to a header on the board - cost optimization also means these are all the same driver board...


----------



## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> No, it's perhaps a little too cost-optimized. I'm pretty sure I could open it up and run another DB9 to a header on the board - cost optimization also means these are all the same driver board...



Ya, exactly my thinking as I was haggling with them on the cost. It really doesn't cost as much as the retail suggests it does. That extra db9 connector is less than a buck.

But no matter. I've been using mine without the quill for a while now. It really wouldn't be a big deal if I never get it working. Nobody uses a quill for fine adjustments. So I can put the quill and knee where I want them, lock the quill, zero the Z, and then go!

I have used my lathe(s) without a DRO for a half century. I never missed it. But know that I have a DRO on my mill, my lathe is jealous......


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I have used my lathe(s) without a DRO for a half century. I never missed it. But know that 8 have a DRO on my mill, my lathe is jealous......


Half a year in my case, and it took me only milling the one mounting block for my X-axis to understand how much the DRO is table stakes for a mill.  Wow - was it ever easier to hit my dimensions and through hole locations, even with just the Y installed.
The lathe can wait a little longer - all the cutting travel is in the same direction, after all.


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## YYCHM (Aug 19, 2022)

Is this bracket going to run into the column if you crank the table back far enough?


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Half a year in my case, and it took me only milling the one mounting block for my X-axis to understand how much the DRO is table stakes for a mill.  Wow - was it ever easier to hit my dimensions and through hole locations, even with just the Y installed.
> The lathe can wait a little longer - all the cutting travel is in the same direction, after all.



My mill experience is virtually the same as yours. Roughly half a year of turning wheels, counting turns, measuring, creeping up on dimensions, measuring again. 

I made my first DRO bracket (X) the old fashioned way. Then I did a bunch of testing to see how reliable and repeatable it was. WAY beyond my expectations. Then with DRO-X working, I made my Y brackets......... HOLY FG CRAP! 

I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I would NEVER go back. 

Did you get a digital edge finder yet? If not GOYA GOYA! Trust me on this one. It's another amazing step forward. 

I like the Accusize and the Fowler. Both work really well. 

Still noodling how to edge on Z. Another project for some day. For now I like what @thestelster showed us.


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Is this bracket going to run into the column if you crank the table back far enough?



Yup. At least mine did. In fact, even the scale hits without the sensor. I could not mount it far enough over to avoid that So I put a small block on the slides to stop that from happening. My plan is to install a rubber stop and mount the vise back a bit more.

Edit - mine also has a stop screw that I could move. But I think a rubber stop is better.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Is this bracket going to run into the column if you crank the table back far enough?


Yes, but only if I remove the vise!


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> My mill experience is virtually the same as yours. Roughly half a year of turning wheels, counting turns, measuring, creeping up on dimensions, measuring again.
> 
> I made my first DRO bracket (X) the old fashioned way. Then I did a bunch of testing to see how reliable and repeatable it was. WAY beyond my expectations. Then with DRO-X working, I made my Y brackets......... HOLY FG CRAP!
> 
> I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I would NEVER go back.


I second that.   I have a Shumatech DRO-350 on mine using the cheap scales.   This was back in 2006 before the Chinese stuff started showing up making it impossible for North American manufacturers to compete.  Mine was a kit and more expensive in 2006 dollars compared to the fully assembled systems you can get now.

@PaulL Are you going to put shields over yours like @Susquatch did?

Here's mine for the Y axis.  And to be truthful I never did the X.


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## YYCHM (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Yes, but only if I remove the vise!



Ya, my vise contacts the column before the scale reader as well.  Without something in place a y-axis PF could prove disheartening.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, my vise contacts the column before the scale reader as well.  Without something in place a y-axis PF could prove disheartening.


It's very tempting to drop a couple of hall effect sensors on a board and understand how the thing really works...


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Are you going to put shields over yours like @Susquatch did?


Only if it looks like they will be useful.  The little rubber sweeps look like they do most of the job already.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> Only if it looks like they will be useful.  The little rubber sweeps look like they do most of the job already.


As you can see even


 the Y axis gets crap dropped on it.
Ignore the surplus printer switches. 
All that will change when I upgrade to ball screws.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> As you can see evenView attachment 25609 the Y axis gets crap dropped on it.
> Ignore the surplus printer switches.
> All that will change when I upgrade to ball screws.


What gauge did you adapt?  Did it come with continous SPC out or is did you have to abuse it particularly?


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> It's very tempting to drop a couple of hall effect sensors on a board and understand how the thing really works...



Not sure what you are wondering about here Paul. 

If you are wondering how the scales and reader head works, I don't think hall effect will tell you much. 

I had wondered how the magnetic sensors worked myself. The research I did suggested that the sensor picks up the phase difference between magnetic fields on the scales. This phase difference is then converted to a string of digital pulses that are counted in the display unit. I'm pretty sure I wrote something up on it elsewhere on the forum. I just can't find it right now.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> If you are wondering how the scales and reader head works, I don't think hall effect will tell you much


My understanding is that the differential field reading between two nearby heads lets you calculate the position between two magnetic peaks on the strip.  So I get this unaccountable urge to work out the details.


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## Dabbler (Aug 19, 2022)

@Susquatch @PaulL I got introduced to DRO on a mill in 1981.  Loved it.  Got my own mill in about '90 - no DRO.  I could work it, but I vowed I'd get another mill before long with 2 things:  a moveable ram like a BP/BP clone, and a DRO.  around '2004, I got one, then sold my old mill to Janger, who then sold it to someone else.  

Using a mill without a DRO is like driving a car with flat tires.  you cannot get anywhere fast.


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## Dabbler (Aug 19, 2022)

@PaulL All DROs, digital verniers work in a very similar way:  think of an optical vernier - each line on one side corresponds to a detector, and the other lines are the thing detected.  With a DRO the added thing is to enhance the effect with quadrature detection, which gives you about 4X the resolution for a given scale.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @PaulL All DROs, digital verniers work in a very similar way:  think of an optical vernier - each line on one side corresponds to a detector, and the other lines are the thing detected.  With a DRO the added thing is to enhance the effect with quadrature detection, which gives you about 4X the resolution for a given scale.


This is why I got curious about the magnetic ones.  The lines aren't as tight as optical, though placed quite accurately but ridiculously far apart - 5mm and 1mm are typical.  The dual sensors let you play differencing games to get better resolution.  Add better integration technology/math (the quadrature part) and somehow they get 1000 times better resolution than the encoder strip has.


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> What gauge did you adapt?  Did it come with continuous SPC out or is did you have to abuse it particularly?


These are the scales.


			Chinese Scales
		


The only major change is I removed the battery and made a module that was shaped and worked electrically like the battery but had capacitors.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> worked electrically like the battery but had capacitors


So you power over Vneg/Vpos and use a cap as the battery?


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## jcdammeyer (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> So you power over Vneg/Vpos and use a cap as the battery?


Yes.  And to avoid electrical interference, inside the DRO-350 is this regulator circuit (power.pdf) which produces the 1.5V needed for the scales.  Here are the fake batteries.




The DRO-350 was only capable of working with this type of scale protocol.  Not even sure these types are available anymore.  Scott did have a module that converted quadrature to the Chinese format.

The DRO-550






Can handle either type of scale.
Oh and there are a number of circuits using PIC processors to combine two Z axis.  Essentially wind the knee up creates pulses similar to bringing the quill down.   And the other way too.


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## PaulL (Aug 19, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> The DRO-350 was only capable of working with this type of scale protocol. Not even sure these types are available anymore. Scott did have a module that converted quadrature to the Chinese format.


The scale protocols do seem to be pretty straightforward - very much possible even bit-banging on a low-end Arduino.  
That said, I went searching, and of course this is all integrated now, including the Hall sensor array and amplifiers: https://ams.com/en/as5306




So there's nothing left to do, and I'm discharged from having to think about how to build one ;-)  Unless I find myself short on projects.


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

PaulL said:


> The scale protocols do seem to be pretty straightforward - very much possible even bit-banging on a low-end Arduino.
> That said, I went searching, and of course this is all integrated now, including the Hall sensor array and amplifiers: https://ams.com/en/as5306
> 
> So there's nothing left to do, and I'm discharged from having to think about how to build one ;-)  Unless I find myself short on projects.



Very interesting. Thanks for this Paul. I had wondered about a chip vs discrete components. This answers that. Of course, it's a Block Diagram of the AS5304/6 chip function. I will have to see if I can find an Applications Guide to go with it.

The accuracy and repeatability of my 1 uM scales is nothing short of hard to believe. It does tend to give one very high confidence in the output though.

My readout box can be programmed for different scale resolutions but not scale size. This makes me suspect that the AS5304/6 chip itself is in the read head and the read head is matched to the scales and the output is universal. But I don't know that for sure. The magnetic scales and magnetic heads might be interchangeable too.

The gain feedback explains the relatively high tolerance to the gap between the strip and the read head. It either works or it doesn't and no adjustment other than the gap itself is possible. I had wondered how that was possible if there were no smarts in the read head itself. Now I know that there probably is.

I assume that the purpose of the sine and cos functions in the chip is to calculate and linearize the phase of the input signals from the hall sensors.

I'm just guessing here from experience that the over-reaching objective was to always have access to a fast changing signal sensitive to displacement. This is much more easily done from a phase measurement than raw amplitude. But again I'm just volunteering an educated guess.

Like you, I'm not sure its really worth any more digging. I don't plan to make scales or read heads.

But if anyone finds additional info, I'm interested in learning.

Edit - never mind. All the application info is available at the link you provided above. Lots of reading. Thanks again Paul.


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## Dabbler (Aug 19, 2022)

One of the guys on HM builds his own DRO for each machine, by buying the components separately.  Apparently there is only one place that makes all the magnetic rubberized tape, and it is adhesive, so he sticks it to a flat part of the machine itself.  He buys read heads from a second place and the head units elsewhere.  

He has been in the CNC/retrofit workspace doing this professionally for 35 years, so he's kinda got it down pat.  If I do my 60" LeBlond, I'll be getting his help, as it will save me  a lot of money.


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## Susquatch (Aug 19, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> One of the guys on HM builds his own DRO for each machine, by buying the components separately.  Apparently there is only one place that makes all the magnetic rubberized tape, and it is adhesive, so he sticks it to a flat part of the machine itself.  He buys read heads from a second place and the head units elsewhere.
> 
> He has been in the CNC/retrofit workspace doing this professionally for 35 years, so he's kinda got it down pat.  If I do my 60" LeBlond, I'll be getting his help, as it will save me  a lot of money.



Very elegant. My magnetic strips are indeed just taped into an extruded aluminium channel with double sided adhesive tape. As long as the base machine is truly flat, that should work great! Way easier than mounting an aluminum channel.


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