# Little bit of shop time



## thriller007 (Dec 2, 2020)

Finally had a little shop time. Needed a few things made and first was a soft hammer for tapping things into mill vice. It’s Hammer time!


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## thriller007 (Dec 2, 2020)

Ok a couple more to go, next was a hex chunk of brass scrap I had so I made it fit my R8 collet collection. It was not long enough so I had to add a small chunk of brass pressed in on one end. Now I have an indexable collet for the milling machine. It’s not hardened but it taught me some things and it was just scrap anyway. Lots of chips from that one.


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## thriller007 (Dec 2, 2020)

Next I needed to make a tailstock die holder


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## PeterT (Dec 2, 2020)

Nice. On your 5C hex block, is it tightening the collet in via the 5C's internal threads or how does that end bolt work?


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## thriller007 (Dec 2, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Nice. On your 5C hex block, is it tightening the collet in via the 5C's internal threads or how does that end bolt work?


Yes exactly. Tighten up the bolt and you are pulling in the collet. It is an R8 collet.


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## Janger (Dec 2, 2020)

Nice projects. !


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## YYCHM (Dec 2, 2020)

Janger said:


> Nice projects. !



He doesn't squander his shop time when he gets It that's for sure.


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## CalgaryPT (Dec 2, 2020)

Nice work


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## DPittman (Dec 3, 2020)

Nice. Thanks for the display, its especially nice for those of us a little less productive


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## Sailor (Dec 3, 2020)

Very nice, enjoyed the pics.


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## thriller007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Thanks for the kind comments. This mornings project was this spring loaded tap follower for the lathe drill or the milling machine. Now I need to get some blueing for these tools.


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## YYCHM (Dec 3, 2020)

What's a spring loaded tap follower?


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## thriller007 (Dec 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What's a spring loaded tap follower?



So if you put the spring loaded tap follower in the tail stock of the lathe it puts spring pressure on the tap to push it in so you can concentrate on turning the tap for the Chuck. It also works the same in the drill press with that spring loaded feature to it so there can be constant pressure. You just need to compress the spring and then lock the quill. Mine only has about 5/8 inch of travel but that’s plenty to get the tap started good. This one is meant for taps with the dimple in the end of them. If your taps don’t have the dimple then you can use a Starrett tap wrench will have that dimple machined in the end and will basically do the same thing.
Hopefully that makes it clear???If not I can take more pictures.


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## thriller007 (Dec 3, 2020)

Here you go. This will explain better


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## Dusty (Dec 3, 2020)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> What's a spring loaded tap follower?



Hi Craig, these should help.....


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## thriller007 (Dec 3, 2020)

I based mine off those vids but did not see the actual plans like those ones posted. Thanks for putting them up


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## YotaBota (Dec 3, 2020)

Is the die holder shaft held in the tailstock chuck? I've seen a few online where the die holder rotates and slides on a shaft clamped into the chuck.


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## thriller007 (Dec 3, 2020)

YotaBota said:


> Is the die holder shaft held in the tailstock chuck? I've seen a few online where the die holder rotates and slides on a shaft clamped into the chuck.


It rotates and slides just like you said. Also the middle handle just slides right out of the way.


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## YotaBota (Dec 3, 2020)

Tap holder and spring follower are on my roundtoit list. Ya gotta love having the tools to build tools.


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## trlvn (Dec 4, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Thanks for the kind comments. This mornings project was this spring loaded tap follower for the lathe drill or the milling machine. Now I need to get some blueing for these tools.



An option for colouring and protecting the metal that I've been meaning to try is Rust Bluing:






The main ingredient is hydrogen peroxide that is cheap and easy to get at the drug store.

Craig


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## thriller007 (Dec 11, 2020)

Couple more small projects. First is a two sided high speed steel holding device for grinding tools while keeping my fingers away. Ended up going into the old sockets box and    sacrificing a 3/8” and a 1/4” socket. Cut off the square part and pressed into the aluminum and then drilled and tapped for tightening screws.

Next was just a simple countersink bit holding device. Found out on that one I need to make or buy a different  knurling tool since mine is not the clamp style and just relays on pressure and has to be perfectly set up. What do you use for knurling?


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## thriller007 (Dec 30, 2020)

Ok things are getting a bit more complex. The bump style knurler I have needs to really be pressed hard against the workpiece so I am trying to make a different clamp style that still uses the original tool parts.


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## David_R8 (Dec 30, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Couple more small projects. First is a two sided high speed steel holding device for grinding tools while keeping my fingers away. Ended up going into the old sockets box and sacrificing a 3/8” and a 1/4” socket. Cut off the square part and pressed into the aluminum and then drilled and tapped for tightening screws.
> 
> Next was just a simple countersink bit holding device. Found out on that one I need to make or buy a different knurling tool since mine is not the clamp style and just relays on pressure and has to be perfectly set up. What do you use for knurling?



I have all the bits and pieces necessary to build the straddle type knurler that @Mikey has shown on his project page. 
Project #62 on the to do list.
Edit: sorry I referenced a member project on Hobby-Machinist.con


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## PeterT (Dec 30, 2020)

There are quite a few plans on the internet for clamp/scissor type knurlers that you can suit to your toolpost & lathe dimensions. You can use your knurling wheels, assuming they are decent quality & good shape. Some things to consider
- maximum diameter you intend to knurl (affects your frame size)
- hardened axles, either your own or commercial dowel pins, There is a lot of pressure imparted on them & kind of dirty environment. Also have a easy & reliable means to remove the axles, maybe like set screw flat through the frame. Some spendy knurlers have axles pressed in the frame which I suppose prevents them from spinning but are a royal PITA to change wheels which is something you probably want to do often
- tensioning mechanism: most designs have a nut or bolt head, but vary in how they apply force. Consider how you will apply progressive force & meanwhile keep the tool/wrench/your hand out of the way which can be quite close to the ouchy spinny parts
- use decent knurl wheels. These are kind of like taps & dies & other tools, crappy ones just don't work as well
- turn the part OD according to the simple formula before knurling (OD is a function of the wheel pitch). A lot of guys skip this step which is why they have hit & miss results. Think of it kind of like gears meshing properly


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## David_R8 (Dec 30, 2020)

Joe Pi has an excellent video on knurling.


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## Tom Kitta (Dec 30, 2020)

I got excellent result knurling on my smaller lathe when I did feed of about 0.007 and I moved back and forth using the screw locked - after 4 passes I got nice deep cut that was perfectly even. I.e. I moved forward, back, forward, back. Each time I made sure there is lots of pressure. 

Also I finally got the thing to part while on power feed. 

Joe is quite good at what he does - for a Pole with a last name "baker".


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## thriller007 (Dec 31, 2020)

David_R8 said:


> Joe Pi has an excellent video on knurling.


Thanks for the heads up on that video. I just watched it.  Here it is for anyone else. 



 I always thought that the circumference of the wheel would have a great effect on how the knurl turned out and that was confirmed. (thanks as well @PeterT for pointing that out as well above.) Other than measuring how many TPI my knurls have by using the non-accurate way of using a flexible tape to wrap around how do I figure that out? Should there be some sort of markings on them?


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## David_R8 (Dec 31, 2020)

thriller007 said:


> Thanks for the heads up on that video. I just watched it. Here it is for anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought that the circumference of the wheel would have a great effect on how the knurl turned out and that was confirmed. (thanks as well @PeterT for pointing that out as well above.) Other than measuring how many TPI my knurls have by using the non-accurate way of using a flexible tape to wrap around how do I figure that out? Should there be some sort of markings on them?



Wouldn’t micing them and converting that number to circumference work to give you the “I” of TPI?


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## Janger (Dec 31, 2020)

Knurl a piece of a paper and measure the marks.


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## PeterT (Dec 31, 2020)

If your wheels don't have ID markings then its kind of like a mystery gear, you'll have to measure OD & count teeth. The potential problem is where did the wheel come from? Maybe its a 15mm wheel from Asia/Europe, not a 5/8" wheel from N-Am.

Joe has some good information & a ton of machining experience. But I had to watch his math explanation a few times. I'm a bit confused. I think he is saying:
- calculate the nominal part circumference C = Dia * Pi    C = 1.25 in * 3.14159 = 3.927 in
- calculate equivalent number teeth   N = C / circumference   N = 3.927 * 16 TPI (same as 1/16=0.0625)    N = 62.83
- N is not a round number because of the 0.83 remainder, so the knurl wheels wont track the shaft OD, we all agree

Around here I lose the scent. His whiteboard says a reduced diameter of 1.243 inch yields an even 63 teeth? But plugging those numbers into his same formula gets...
C = Dia * Pi    C = 1.243 in * 3.14159 = 3.905 in
N = C / circumference   N = 3.905 * 16 TPI = 62.479 teeth   So we still have a remainder problem, this time 0.47. Its smaller but still not a round number
I looked in the comments & nobody mentioned this. Am I missing something here? Maybe he slipped a digit. He mentions 7 thou?

He could have just rearranged the formula a bit & calculated directly:  Dia  = N / (P * pi)
if N = 62, resultant Dia = 1.233 in (this is the best way because it calculates closest shaft diameter under nominal)
if N = 63, resultant Dia = 1.253 in (it works but note is bigger diameter than original nominal shaft size)

I used this link to make a little spreadsheet. They mention other correction factors over & above this pitch calculation. They also quantify a +/- tolerance which is (IMO) why sometimes knurling appears to work better than other times.
https://accu-trak.com/technicalinfo/blank_diameter_selection.html


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## David_R8 (Dec 31, 2020)

You’ll also notice that even when he turned down the shaft to the diameter where the knurls should have single tracked they still multi tracked. 
My takeaway was to just press on and knurl.


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## PeterT (Dec 31, 2020)

Knurling is a black art because there are so many interconnecting variables and technique. Its a material forming/deformation process, not a cutting/removal process. Most people (me included) just want a pretty pattern that doesn't visually suck & provide a surface we can grip our fingers on. But when you see well made knurls under magnification, especially tough materials like tool steel on gun parts, or delicate materials like camera parts, makes you appreciate where the bar is set.

Back to Joe.P tracking (I noticed that too) I included the diameter with +/- tolerance using same website info. This shows the allowable range even with the factors accounted for. But that is for one specific diameter/knurl combination. I think this is the root of the issue. People get good results on a knurl & conclude the math doesn't matter. But next one slightly different size looks like crap so its a mystery or they chock it up to other things. I think its just the combination of diameter & pitch lands you inside or outsize the recommended range. So IMO its worth doing the calculation especially if its easy to plunk in spreadsheet. I mean you need turn the OD to some value anyways, may as well give yourself best chance of success.


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## RobinHood (Dec 31, 2020)

Yes, his board is wrong. He says that “if you take 7thou off the diameter....” which is 1.243” - that is what he has written. BUT, if you have 63 teeth, the ideal diameter is 1.253” as you mention Peter.

So if you have a 63 tooth wheel and used it on a nominal 1 1/4” shaft (they are usually oversized) you probably still get better results than using a 62 tooth wheel on a 1 1/4” nominal shaft turned down to 1.243.

He does mention a very important factor: the initial bite needs to be almost to final depth for a successful knurl. No sneaking up on things.

I have a scissor type tool (and a swivel head and a straight one). I prefer the scissor one. I touch off so that both upper and lower wheels are well engaged, but don’t leave marks. I note the cross slide position. I back the tool off to clear the part and tighten the scissors by a 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Then run the lathe at very low speed, feed in to the same cross slide number. Lots of lube. The knurl is well formed after maybe 5 revs of the part. Then I just let it “spark” out - listen for the sound to change from a well loaded tool running to one that is lightly loaded. And you are done. It really moves a lot of metal. 

Pays to do a sample first. Adjust clamp pressure, OD, speed, lube, etc. as required. The knurling rollers need to be spotless before you start. Any plugged up grooves will show. That’s another reason why you don’t dwell on the part: if there are tiny bits that come off, they will clog the rollers and you can just watch the (once) beautiful knurling get destroyed in a few turns of the part.


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## thriller007 (Jan 2, 2021)

G


Janger said:


> Knurl a piece of a paper and measure the marks.


Yes that worked good and it was 16 tpi


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