# Show us your Tool Height Standard



## YYCHM (Jul 20, 2022)

It's time for me to make one, but before I do, I want to see what you guys use.

Craig


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 20, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> It's time for me to make one, but before I do, I want to see what you guys use.
> 
> Craig


For the lathe?  I use the old fashioned approach of pushing a straight piece of metal up against the work and looking to see if it's vertical.  I adjust up or down until it is.
For the mill I haven't yet arrived at a tool height setter.  I tend to move the tool closer until a piece of paper is grabbed.  Measure the paper and tweak it that much closer.  So far nothing I've done requires anything better.
I did try to buy one from China but that fell through.  Should really try again.


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## Dabbler (Jul 21, 2022)

@jcdammeyer The way you are used to works, and fairly well.  I leaned to use a standard, which is very fast, and much more accurate....

Here's mine on my 12" lathe:


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## PeterT (Jul 21, 2022)

It might be my own interpretation of hobby lathe history but I think when people were putting cutters into non-repeatable tool posts & diddling with shims or tool angle in the lantern style posts, it made sense to have an independent gage or standard to check the tool tip against independently to avoid disturbing a part in progress. But seems like most everyone has a dovetail tool post these days & a small collection of inexpensive knockoff holders. What I find quickest with a new tool is just turn the end of a scrap bar & adjust height until the nib is gone. Usually (ideally) once set, the height should remain that way with other tool changes.

I use to have a 'standard' which was just a bar turned to match my center height. Then I just used DTI on  Noga type mag base to reference that height like you would on a surface plate & compare to tool height using the lathe bed datum. This was quite accurate especially on more steeply angled tool edges because you are measuring the very extremity of the point. Having said this, I have tweaked some cutting tools up or down a smidgen if it decides it likes to cut better there. Tool height setting to 0.001' doesn't factor when the tool is loaded, things can bend & deflect a bit. The suspended ruler method is quick & dirty but I've also seem some so-so inserts that have quite rounded profiles in side view & can get tricked by this method.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

I'm a standard user Craig. Lightning fast, super convenient, and plenty accurate enough. Takes 3 seconds to check height and a few more to adjust if needed. Can't imagine taking cuts or using a ruler or comparing to a center ever again. 

Like so many things in my shop, my standard is turned from an old bolt. This provided the opportunity to turn the head of the bolt down to create a bigger base that was more stable on my ways. It is recessed on the bottom so it's easy to make sure it isn't sitting on a film of oil or any scarf. 

The standard has a sharpie mark on it. This is not to index the standard. It's only there to provide a visual contrast. 

I use my eyes first and then my finger and then my fingernail to gauge height difference between the tool and the standard. 

The two photos are the same with different focusses - one for each end.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> For the lathe?  I use the old fashioned approach of pushing a straight piece of metal up against the work and looking to see if it's vertical.  I adjust up or down until it is.
> For the mill I haven't yet arrived at a tool height setter.  I tend to move the tool closer until a piece of paper is grabbed.  Measure the paper and tweak it that much closer.  So far nothing I've done requires anything better.
> I did try to buy one from China but that fell through.  Should really try again.



You should make a standard for your lathe. You will never regret it. 

I'm not thrilled with adjusting height on my mill yet at all. Taking a dust cut isn't very cool. In fact, it downright sucks. 

I haven't mastered the paper technique yet. 

An edge finder is awesome for x & y, but sucks for Z. 

I'm open to suggestions and any other method that might work. PLEASE come back here and post anything you find that actually works.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Jul 21, 2022)

I made this from a bolt in my scraps box before I realized how expensive brass is nowadays!


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## thestelster (Jul 21, 2022)

For the lathe, I have a dedicated dial indicator with a pin point tip.  It takes a little while in the beginning to set up the exact height to center, but you do it once, and you're good as golden, unless you drop it.  You just move the indicator tip to the cutting edge.  If its too low, I shim it up by that amount.  You can see in the photos, that the cutting edge is 0.008" low of center, so I'll put an 0.008" shim underneath the tool.


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## thestelster (Jul 21, 2022)

For the milling machine, x and y axis, I use the Starrett edge finder.  In Z-axis, raise the column until the endmill is close 1/8" away from touching and lock the column.  Move the cutter away for the piece, unlock the quill, and move it up and down a couple times to free it up.
Move the endmill to your part, put a feeler gauge on top of your part, lower the quill until it touches.  Lock the quill, move off the part, let the endmill drag the feeler gauge off.  Lower the quill, or raise the column by the thickness of your feeler gauge.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

thestelster said:


> For the lathe, I have a dedicated dial indicator with a pin point tip.  It takes a little while in the beginning to set up the exact height to center, but you do it once, and you're good as golden, unless you drop it.  You just move the indicator tip to the cutting edge.  If its too low, I shim it up by that amount.  You can see in the photos, that the cutting edge is 0.008" low of center, so I'll put an 0.008" shim underneath the tool.



I think for your situation with a tool post like yours, that's the way to go. By measuring, yo u know exactly what size shim to use

With a piston or wedge type tool post, it isn't necessary. We lucky B's can just turn a knurled nut to dial it in using a standard. No measurements needed.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

PeterT said:


> It might be my own interpretation of hobby lathe history but I think when people were putting cutters into non-repeatable tool posts & diddling with shims or tool angle in the lantern style posts, it made sense to have an independent gage or standard to check the tool tip against independently to avoid disturbing a part in progress. But seems like most everyone has a dovetail tool post these days & a small collection of inexpensive knockoff holders. What I find quickest with a new tool is just turn the end of a scrap bar & adjust height until the nib is gone. Usually (ideally) once set, the height should remain that way with other tool changes.
> 
> I use to have a 'standard' which was just a bar turned to match my center height. Then I just used DTI on  Noga type mag base to reference that height like you would on a surface plate & compare to tool height using the lathe bed datum. This was quite accurate especially on more steeply angled tool edges because you are measuring the very extremity of the point. Having said this, I have tweaked some cutting tools up or down a smidgen if it decides it likes to cut better there. Tool height setting to 0.001' doesn't factor when the tool is loaded, things can bend & deflect a bit. The suspended ruler method is quick & dirty but I've also seem some so-so inserts that have quite rounded profiles in side view & can get tricked by this method.



I dunno Peter. I think the old hardware and especially the ones like @thestelster has benefit from measuring things and then selecting the right shim. 

My first lathe was a lantern style tool post. I think a standard might have worked if there was something to set it on. Mine had two V rails. You couldn't use a standard. Even the top of the cross-slide wasn't flat. There may be some out there though. I don't know. 

Regardless, I believe you are missing out by not using a standard. You need to make one and try it. I'll wager a coffee you will wonder how you ever got along without it. I like my coffee double cream.....


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 21, 2022)

If I've done it right this link should point to a short video, hand held cell phone, of my CNC router doing homing.  It's a short script in MACH3 that moves down until the contact is made.  It then adds 0.062" (PC board thickness) to that point and sets that as 0.000" for the Z axis. 






I can set up the big camera on a tripod along with some lights and do a better job if someone wants.

And this is how I find the edges now on the mill with LinuxCNC.


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## YYCHM (Jul 21, 2022)

@Dabbler sent me these.... THANKS!


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

thestelster said:


> For the milling machine, x and y axis, I use the Starrett edge finder.  In Z-axis, raise the column until the endmill is close 1/8" away from touching and lock the column.  Move the cutter away for the piece, unlock the quill, and move it up and down a couple times to free it up.
> Move the endmill to your part, put a feeler gauge on top of your part, lower the quill until it touches.  Lock the quill, move off the part, let the endmill drag the feeler gauge off.  Lower the quill, or raise the column by the thickness of your feeler gauge.



I like this. I will have to try it. I have a set of feeler gauges that I had to use as shims and have a lot of them left that I could use for this task. 

Did you ever measure how much the end mill digs into the feeler gauge when you this? Or is that my job since I'm wondering about it.......

Ive been wondering about an electronic method that works the same way with an insulated pad on the part connected to an E-box with a sort of continuity tester in it.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> If I've done it right this link should point to a short video, hand held cell phone, of my CNC router doing homing.  It's a short script in MACH3 that moves down until the contact is made.  It then adds 0.062" (PC board thickness) to that point and sets that as 0.000" for the Z axis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your videos are just fine as is John. 

Thank you!


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Your videos are just fine as is John.
> 
> Thank you!


Thanks.
Here's the script for MACH3.  It sets the Z position to 0.0625" which is the PC board height above where it's sitting.  I named it "TouchPlateButton.ms1 and it's linked to the set tool zero button.  The signal #22 is the 'probe'  input which in ports and pins is Port 2 pin 11.

*response = MsgBox( "Auto Zeroing, Put Ground Clip on Tool bit", 1 ) 
If IsSuchSignal (22) Then
  code "G31 Z-3 F20"
  While IsMoving()
  Wend
  Call SetDRO( 2, 0.0625 )
  code "G1 Z1"
  While IsMoving()
  Wend
  response = MsgBox( "Auto Zeroing Complete. Remove Ground Clip", 1 ) 
End If   *


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> @Dabbler sent me these.... THANKS!



I love the way @Dabbler thinks, but man I hate YouTube. I fell asleep watching these videos. I really HATE the way videos like these take forever to show one minute of good content. I set the ox tools one going and it's been playing in the background while I did a lot of other things including writing this message ...  Ugh..... 

Compare that with what @jcdammeyer provided earlier. In much less than a minute you have what you want.

Sorry for the anti you tube rant. 

I think what's important for making a good standard is to use two gauge pins to make the standard. So you know the standard is the right height. 

So......., I felt so bad dishing the videos above that I decided to find one too. Ya, just looking was plenty painful painful painful punishment for my bad attitude..... 

I don't like Joe Pie any more than any other you tuber. But at least this particular video on this subject is mercifully shorter and also shows how to achieve the center height on the standard. When I made mine I used the same method but didn't use gauge pins (mostly cuz I don't have any). I used a quarter inch end mill and turned a half inch rod in the lathe and measured with a micrometer so I could be sure my center was truly centered.


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## Degen (Jul 21, 2022)

Standards are exactly that.  A standard.  Accuracy is based on how they are used in some cases do not matter on what infinite decimal accuracy they are made or not made but in how consistently they are used.

In most cases the best accuracy is based on the simplest standards with the easiest repeatable method.

So for me a measurement of fixed point on the lathe for tool height gives a consistent tool height.

On the mill I use vellum paper (as thickness is very predicatable and consistent). My cnc does only manual tool changes so recalibration is best at each tool change for ht only.  For x&y I use conductive probe or tool with paper for the initial set up, both take about the same time.

If I don't want to use paper, I use Dykem and touch to scrape bare with tool, generally slow but you can achieve into the 1/10's accuracy.

Last one I love, is center on a round,  simple ruler to level and you are centered.


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## thestelster (Jul 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I like this. I will have to try it. I have a set of feeler gauges that I had to use as shims and have a lot of them left that I could use for this task.
> 
> Did you ever measure how much the end mill digs into the feeler gauge when you this? Or is that my job since I'm wondering about it.......
> 
> Ive been wondering about an electronic method that works the same way with an insulated pad on the part connected to an E-box with a sort of continuity tester in it.


The feeler gauges are hardened, and you only use light pressure to touch off, so no digging in.  Do a test.  Machine a piece of aluminium flat, then using the same set up, move off, and try my method.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

thestelster said:


> The feeler gauges are hardened, and you only use light pressure to touch off, so no digging in.  Do a test.  Machine a piece of aluminium flat, then using the same set up, move off, and try my method.



Sounds like a plan!


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 21, 2022)

Last year I tried to buy one of these but the Chinese store cancelled the order.  I was refunded but never did try again.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000480545163.html 
With these you can load a tool, move over and go down until contact is made.  No clip lead needed on the tool.  As long as you know the height of the sensor assembly you can then enter the tool length into the tool table for either MACH or LinuxCNC.  However,  it doesn't help with finding the top of the work say mounted in the vise.  
Tormach also sells a holder along with a gauge so you can measure the distance from the TT Reference surface to a tool tip.  Then you can enter that in relative to the quill.  


			https://tormach.com/media/asset/u/m/um10290_tormach_tool_assistant_0814c.pdf
		

I think I'd rather have the sensor mounted on the table so that I can put a drill bit into a chuck, zoom over and touch off to find the length of the now mounted drill.  That length is then used to properly drill holes to depth.


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## Susquatch (Jul 21, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Last year I tried to buy one of these but the Chinese store cancelled the order.  I was refunded but never did try again.
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000480545163.html
> With these you can load a tool, move over and go down until contact is made.  No clip lead needed on the tool.  As long as you know the height of the sensor assembly you can then enter the tool length into the tool table for either MACH or LinuxCNC.  However,  it doesn't help with finding the top of the work say mounted in the vise.
> Tormach also sells a holder along with a gauge so you can measure the distance from the TT Reference surface to a tool tip.  Then you can enter that in relative to the quill.
> ...



I agree. I have no interest in cnc so setting tools to a standard dimension doesn't work. The only way I can see to do an electronic system is as you suggest - the sensor system has to be on the table, not in the spindle.


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## DPittman (Jul 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> but man I hate YouTube. I fell asleep watching these videos. I really HATE the way videos like these take forever to show one minute of good content.


Yes sometimes that's the case, people pontificate about things and possibilities and say alot of words without really enlightening anyone but themselves it seems.  However sometimes roses grow among manure.


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## PeterT (Jul 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Regardless, I believe you are missing out by not using a standard. You need to make one and try it. I'll wager a coffee you will wonder how you ever got along without it. I like my coffee double cream.....


I guess I didn't explain myself properly. I do have a standard, its just a piece of stock like your pic machined to equal my spindle height. But rather than have it sit on the bed & bring the tool up to it (not always convenient) I just set it up on a flat surface & use it as a dedicated gage block to zero my indicator held in mag stand essentially as @thestelster shows in post#8. Then I bring that over to the lathe, mag base on lathe bed & indicator registers on the tool tip. I guess some advantages to this method is you can extend the arm out to different positions & its also providing dimensional feedback, high by a thou, low by thou, zero by a thou...  etc. maybe if you prefer to have it offset from center by some difference for some cutting reason. The only improvement I would suggest is screw on a flat indicator anvil vs a ball, just easier to register to pointy tip cutting tool vs a ball end.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I guess some advantages to this method is you can extend the arm out to different positions & its providing dimensional feedback, high by a thou, low by thou, zero by a thou...  etc. maybe if you prefer to have it offset from center by some difference for some cutting reason. The only improvement I would suggest is screw on a flat indicator anvil vs a ball, just easier to register to pointy tip cutting tool vs a ball end.



I see. That makes sense. And instinctively I agree that a flat tip would probably be better.

If you need the dimensional aspect for any of the reasons that you describe, then a measurement is required. Simple as that.

Nothing would preclude me from doing that with mine if I ever needed to or wanted to. Normally I wouldn't and in the time I've had my standard (about 10 years) I've never needed to. Center is center - simple as that. I think it's just the extra step of bringing a measurement into the picture that I have avoided. But if I ever needed that on a regular basis, I'd do exactly what you did and set up a dedicated indicator.

I suspect that there is something about your lathe bed that makes this a bit more necessary than mine. In @thestelster's case, the difference is simple. He needs to know how thick a shim he needs. If I recall correctly, you have a wedge style tool post so that isn't required.

Could you take a look at my photos above and comment on that? Perhaps also post a similar picture of your bed and tool post tool holder geometry here?


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> I think I'd rather have the sensor mounted on the table so that I can put a drill bit into a chuck, zoom over and touch off to find the length of the now mounted drill. That length is then used to properly drill holes to depth.



I clicked on your Ali link so that height gauge keeps popping up in my suggestions now. Which only serves to make me think about it more than I want to. 

It's too tall as is and* I think* it requires a brain box of some kind to use. 

I'm thinking about cutting apart a regular edge finder and mounting the end piece in a piece of flat stock that also holds the rest of the assembly laying on its side. I think that would make the entire assembly about an inch high or so. Easy peasy to touch off an end mill remove the top finder, and then either bring up the Z an inch or zero Z on a DRO to plus 1 inch. 

The biggest negative to that is the ball or cylindrical nature of electronic edge finders. It would be better if it was an inch wide platten of some kind - like the one on Ali. I suppose one could make something that has a wire lead on it. That way perhaps one could make two flat caps for it so it could sit flat on your work or your mill table to provide a touch-off for end mills or fly cutters. 

The more I think about this, the more I like @thestelster 's feeler gauge method.......


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Move the cutter away for the piece, unlock the quill, and move it up and down a couple times to free it up.



Why do you need to free up the quill if you are going to lock it up subsequently?


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## Dusty (Jul 22, 2022)

For what it's worth I found this one accurate, handy and easy to use. Just saying!









						Pro Lathe Gage 02-000
					

The Pro Lathe Gage 02-000 by Edge Technology is used to set lathe tools on the spindle axis for optimum cutting conditions. Poorly set cutting tools will leave a "NUB" at the center of the workpiece after performing a facing cut. Our Pro Lathe gage can be used to set tools on the spindle axis...




					www.edgetechnologyproducts.com


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## thestelster (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Why do you need to free up the quill if you are going to lock it up subsequently?


I find that if you haven't used the quill in a while, it's a little sticky, so moving it up and down a couple times oil's it up.  In this way you have a better feel when you touch off.


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## thestelster (Jul 22, 2022)

Dusty said:


> For what it's worth I found this one accurate, handy and easy to use. Just saying!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy smokes @Dusty 
You reminded me that I have something similar.  And it works quite well, but the lathe has to be level in the front/back direction since it relys on a bubble level.  Though I have seen one which is adjustable, and made of aluminium.


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## YYCHM (Jul 22, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Holy smokes @Dusty
> You reminded me that I have something similar.  And it works quite well, but the lathe has to be level in the front/back direction since it relys on a bubble level.  Though I have seen one which is adjustable, and made of aluminium.



How do you use this one?


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## ShawnR (Jul 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> If I've done it right this link should point to a short video, hand held cell phone, of my CNC router doing homing.  It's a short script in MACH3 that moves down until the contact is made.  It then adds 0.062" (PC board thickness) to that point and sets that as 0.000" for the Z axis.



I know they sell electronic edge finders but @jcdammeyer video, with the alligator clip, makes me think that a simple LED circuit can be made up (haphazardly or in a nice little box... ) to be used when looking for an Z axis zero. Alligator to the bit, other one to the table or work piece and a battery, resistor and led. Should be a fairly accurate vertical zero, me thinks.


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## thestelster (Jul 22, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> How do you use this one


Just put the v on the part, and the shelf on the cutter tip.  You can also use it on the rear of the part for checking boring bar height.


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## PeterT (Jul 22, 2022)

Not really pertaining to center height because its showing from DOC section perspective, but I like magnified Slow-Mo videos. One can better visualize the effect of rake angle & DOC how materials might shear & pile up differently. And then there's chip breaker geometry & tool vibration & dullening & cutting fluid effect & all that good stuff....


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Just put the v on the part, and the shelf on the cutter tip.  You can also use it on the rear of the part for checking boring bar height.



Pretty cool device @thestelster! Prolly a pain to make but shouldn't cost too much to buy. 

Prolly a good solution for those without a flat way. But prolly wouldn't help a poor SOB like you with a 4-way.


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I clicked on your Ali link so that height gauge keeps popping up in my suggestions now. Which only serves to make me think about it more than I want to.
> 
> It's too tall as is and* I think* it requires a brain box of some kind to use.
> 
> I'm thinking about cutting apart a regular edge finder and mounting the end piece in a piece of flat stock that also holds the rest of the assembly laying on its side. I think that would make the entire assembly about an inch high or so. Easy peasy to touch off an end mill remove the top finder, and then either bring up the Z an inch or zero Z on a DRO to plus 1 inch.


It could be wired to an LED or if you have a DRO with a touch input.  If clamped to the far corner of the mill table it's still lower than the vise.  Once you've found the absolute location you can subtract or add an offset to bring it reference work clamped in the vise.

For edge finding I used one of these for years.  
https://www.amazon.ca/FOWLER-54-575-600-0-200-Electronic-Finder/dp/B00DHMSIRA 
Then promptly broke it when I jogged the wrong way.  
Bought another one.  Still have that.  Was planning on running a wire to the Shumatech DRO.  Just never got around to it.  Manually jogging the XY axis and watching the LED come on was adequate.  I'd then set the DRO to 0.  It has a parameter for the diameter of the probe (0.2").  

But then I found out about the edge finder in the second video along with a complete Python Screen for LinuxCNC.  Hard to say if I'd buy that one right now since it's made by a guy in Belarus and the Russian supported countries are kind of off limits.  But once I figured out how to properly integrate it with the screen I was able to have it automatically find 0 in both X and Y.  Either internal or external.  Or the center of a bored hole.









						Work with probe in LinuxCNC
					

Probe Screen V2 for LinuxCNC




					vers.by


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## Six O Two (Jul 22, 2022)

You'll have to excuse the poor focus, but here's my lathe standard. I remember seeing oxtools' vids on the subject and got excited to make a fancy adjustable threaded version, but in the end I chose this much simpler design.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> You'll have to excuse the poor focus, but here's my lathe standard. I remember seeing oxtools' vids on the subject and got excited to make a fancy adjustable threaded version, but in the end I chose this much simpler design.
> 
> View attachment 25133



KISS KISS KISS. LMAO! 

I AGREE! I could not use my cross slide. Surface is not flat. My flat way was just fine though. 

You and @Dabbler both have a flat at the side. What advantage does that provide if any?


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> It could be wired to an LED or if you have a DRO with a touch input.  If clamped to the far corner of the mill table it's still lower than the vise.  Once you've found the absolute location you can subtract or add an offset to bring it reference work clamped in the vise.
> 
> For edge finding I used one of these for years.
> https://www.amazon.ca/FOWLER-54-575-600-0-200-Electronic-Finder/dp/B00DHMSIRA
> ...



As I said before, no cnc for me. Prolly not ever.

I have a Fowler and I like it. But I like this accusize unit even better.

Accusize Industrial Tools Electronic Short Shank Edge Finders with Sound Alert, C028-9273 https://a.co/d/266wAFQ

I find that the round ball gives a more consistent reading. Always repeatable within a tenth or even less (if I believe my DRO). LOL! 

Off to the shop to noodle a Z sensor and try @thestelster 's method.


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## Six O Two (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You and @Dabbler both have a flat at the side. What advantage does that provide if any?



It's easier to butt up the standard against a flat cutting edge, and I find the straight edge of the standard easier to measure against, vs how it would be against a curved edge. A curve can play tricks on you as it curves or falls away from the point of your tool.


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## DPittman (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Mine had two V rails. You couldn't use a standard. Even the top of the cross-slide wasn't flat. There may be some out there though. I don't know.


Here's what I have used.  I first made the aluminum thing that sat over my ways but more recently I came across the height gauge and find it a bit more convenient in that it is adjustable and smaller.


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## mickeyf (Jul 22, 2022)

There was a discussion on this a few months back in the HomeShopMachist forum. A bunch of different ideas, some of those presented here and some others:






						Setting lathe QCTP tools on centerline -  		 		The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS
					

How do you set your lathe cutting tools on centerline? I used to do that visually with a small steel rod in the chuck and aligning the tool height to the center of the rod. The accuracy of this method is .010-.020", which is fine in most cases. Unfortunately my eyes are not getting any better...



					bbs.homeshopmachinist.net


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 22, 2022)

DPittman said:


> Here's what I have used.  I first made the aluminum thing that sat over my ways but more recently I came across the height gauge and find it a bit more convenient in that it is adjustable and smaller.


That approach would work well for my South Bend.

BTW.  I'm not allowed to post to the thread about membership and costs.


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## Dabbler (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You and @Dabbler both have a flat at the side. What advantage does that provide if any?





Six O Two said:


> It's easier to butt up the standard against a flat cutting edge, and I find the straight edge of the standard easier to measure against, vs how it would be against a curved edge.


agree.  Works far better on parting and grooving tools as well.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> That approach would work well for my South Bend.
> 
> BTW.  I'm not allowed to post to the thread about membership and costs.


Ya, there are others with that problem too. Generally it seems as though turning off your add blocker while you are on CHMW you should be able to post there. If not, I'd suggest sending a PM to Jwest.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> agree.  Works far better on parting and grooving tools as well.


@Dabbler & @Six O Two .

Ive never had that problem, but adding a flat is no big deal. It might help out someday when and if I do. 

Do you guys use your finger and finger nail to detect the height difference? 

Btw, a dentist once told me that there is one thing more sensitive to height differences than your finger nails. That is your tongue. He said your tongue can detect as little as 1 micron height difference between a filling/or on-lay and your tooth. I'd appreciate it if you guys tried that out and then let the rest of us know how it worked....... LOL!


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## Dabbler (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I'd appreciate it if you guys tried that out and then let the rest of us know how it worked....... LOL!



Sounds like "lick this fence" in -40 degree weather.   



Susquatch said:


> Do you guys use your finger and finger nail to detect the height difference?



I use my ring finger tip.  I can easily distinguish one half thou with it.  ( checked with gauge blocks... )


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Sounds like "lick this fence" in -40 degree weather.
> 
> 
> 
> I use my ring finger tip.  I can easily distinguish one half thou with it.  ( checked with gauge blocks... )



You are better than I am. I can do a bit under a thou with my nail but not my finger. I guess I'll have to try my tongue!


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## jcdammeyer (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Ya, there are others with that problem too. Generally it seems as though turning off your add blocker while you are on CHMW you should be able to post there. If not, I'd suggest sending a PM to Jwest.


Turned off the blocker for this site.  That worked for that list.  Hasn't impacted posting on the other lists with ad blocker ON.


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## YYCHM (Jul 22, 2022)

Ta Da........






I just received that tool in the mail today.  I set it up using the standard and the height was perfecto


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ta Da........
> 
> View attachment 25149
> 
> I just received that tool in the mail today.  I set it up using the standard and the height was perfecto


Very nice Craig! Especially nice that you can put yours on your cross-slide. 

Good thing your head is aligned......... (Insert evil grin here)......


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## StevSmar (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> …An edge finder is awesome for x & y, but sucks for Z.
> 
> I'm open to suggestions and any other method that might work. PLEASE come back here and post anything you find that actually works.


Perhaps this does what you’re after:
Haimer 3D sensor


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## Degen (Jul 22, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You are better than I am. I can do a bit under a thou with my nail but not my finger. I guess I'll have to try my tongue!


Secret with the tongue is use the power feed on high.


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## Susquatch (Jul 22, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> Perhaps this does what you’re after:
> Haimer 3D sensor



Unless I am missing something, I don't think it will. 

Unlike the x & y axis where you can set a repeatable zero on the axis of the mill itself without a tool there, the Z Axis requires a tool. Even with a stop, the Z cannot be reset precisely. So far, @thestelster has the best solution. I tried his method today. It isn't perfect but it was well within a thou. Maybe not quite good enough to pick up on existing machining, but plenty good enough for new machining. I don't care much for touching off, so it's a pretty good method


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## Gearhead88 (Dec 4, 2022)

This discussion has inspired me to build a tool height gauge for my lathe .  For the last 18 years , I’ve been using a cheap o height gauge , I can’t remember where I bought it, maybe House of Tools ?


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## DPittman (Dec 4, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> This discussion has inspired me to build a tool heigh gauge for my lathe .  For the last 18 years , I’ve been using a cheap o height gauge , I can’t remember where I bought it, maybe House of Tools ?    View attachment 28557


That's EXACTLY what I use now too.


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## Tom O (Dec 4, 2022)

Hmm, I never thought of using that I just usually use a ruler or just face one end it’s never bothered me that much.


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## Tecnico (Dec 4, 2022)

DPittman said:


> That's EXACTLY what I use now too.


Me too!  

Busy Bee, but lately I'm feeling the peer pressure to make something less likely to go out of cal.....

D


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

Mine was BusyBee too.  I still just use the vertical piece of metal to adjust too height.  Sloppy I know.


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## Degen (Dec 4, 2022)

Any method or setter works, biggest secret is always reference off the same surface once the tool is set.

In my case I have a piece of chrome moly that I've turned to reference off the carriage cover (it is stiff and flat) and lets me use the cross slide in any position.  On my previous lathe it was off the flat on the bed ways (not a convent spot on the new lathe).


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2022)

@Gearhead88, @Tecnico , @jcdammeyer, @Tom O ,@DPittman

Whatever works, works.

But surely it can't get easier than this. I made it out of a big rusty old bolt.






Here it is sitting on my flat way.






And here is a closeup of how you use it. Just rub your finger across where they touch. You can easily feel a thou and some of the characters on here can feel a half thou.







In use, nothing is faster or more accurate.

And just for the record, that's the high-speed tool I ground to make 12 thou needles for @DPittman. Needless to say, that job required very very very precise setting on center! I never did get to 10, but the opera lady didn't sing yet!


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> @Gearhead88, @Tecnico , @jcdammeyer, @Tom O ,@DPittman
> 
> Whatever works, works.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I've missed it in this thread or elsewhere but once the tool has been made it's true that setting the tool height is a no-brainer.  Where my brain hurts is determining the correct height in the first place.

The only approach I can think of is:
1. Turn something to an evenly divisible diameter.  So 1.000" for example (precisely.
2. Now use a height gauge like the Busy Bee one's we've been referencing (or something higher quality from the base measuring point to the top of what's been turned.
3. Subtract the radius of the turned item and move the height gauge arm down to that position.
4. Create an adjustable height post and adjust until it measures to the height gauge arm on the surface plate (or tablesaw/bandsaw table).
5. Lock the jamb nut at this point or dribble in thread locker.

That's the best step by step I can come up with.


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## VicHobbyGuy (Dec 4, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Where my brain hurts is determining the correct height in the first place.


I'm sure my method was much less accurate than yours, but it worked for me.
Put a piece of scrap in the chuck and face it with a sharp tool in the QCTP.
Adjust the tool height to exactly remove the 'pip' in the center of the work.
Lock the tool height in the QCTP holder. Remove that tool in its holder and put it aside. That will be the 'fine tuning' device.
Measure up to the center from the ways- that will be the rough height.
Make the height gauge in the lathe, face ends to length, or use a gauge with adjustments (threaded big bolt with locking setscrew, for example).
Test the gauge with the fine tuning tool set aside previously. Repeat till satisfied.
I use a single edge razor blade to compare tool height with the gauge.


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## StevSmar (Dec 4, 2022)

I really like this, though I suspect it’s because of the nice colour:
Edge Technologies Lathe tool height setter


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> I really like this, though I suspect it’s because of the nice colour:
> Edge Technologies Lathe tool height setter
> View attachment 28574


It's cheap enough but the adjustment for non-level lathes ultimately introduces the same issue.  First the tool must be exactly on center.  Then you can tweak the level so it shows the tool is exactly on center.   But to get the tool exactly on center you need to have the level tweaked.........

I like the colour too.


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## StevSmar (Dec 4, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> But to get the tool exactly on center you need to have the level tweaked.........


The level can be adjusted, to accommodate a lathe that’s not level.

The colour is looking even nicer the more I look at it…LOL


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2022)

To be brutally honest, I hate the colour...... 

OK, your head should hurt for this business of getting the right height on the tool. It isn't that simple, but it is fairly easy. 

This is prolly the one and only time I'll ever post a YouTube link. But it's a lot easier for me to post one than it would be for anybody to follow my instructions for doing this. I hate YouTube. 

For the record, you do not need gauge pins. Some math works too. 






Joe Pie can be a rough watch. A little too pedantic for me. But.... He knows his stuff.


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2022)

Apparently Joe Pie cut his standard with a mill. Facing in a lathe works just fine too. That's how I made mine. 

Watching his video again made me realize that the math I mentioned above isn't obvious either. 

You can make your own gauge pins on the lathe. Measure their OD very carefully. If they are out a few thou, just take that into account when you compare the two heights with your dial test indicator.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> To be brutally honest, I hate the colour......
> 
> OK, your head should hurt for this business of getting the right height on the tool. It isn't that simple, but it is fairly easy.
> 
> ...


Just love his demonstration of cutting his tool gauge to the exact length with the perfectly smooth almost mirror like finish.
Magic that it was then the perfect height.
And yes... that was sarcasm.

I think his approach would work better if the tool gauge was itself adjustable.  Then you can set the 1/2" and 1/4" pins up with the dial indicator and finely adjust the tool gauge height until the dial reads zero.

I'm pretty sure I'd never be able to make a round piece of aluminium accurate to some unknown length on my mill due to backlash in the ACME screws.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> The level can be adjusted, to accommodate a lathe that’s not level.
> 
> The colour is looking even nicer the more I look at it…LOL


Yes but it's a catch-22 scenario.  Once you have a properly adjusted cutting tool then you can use it to put the pink gauge up against something in the chuck.  Then tweak the level to match what you know is a properly adjusted tool.  But first you have to properly adjust the tool.
Like photographing yourself in a mirror which is a image of you photographing yourself in a mirror which is ...


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## Proxule (Dec 4, 2022)

I just guess and SEND IT, .200 DOC and see how it feels


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2022)

jcdammeyer said:


> Just love his demonstration of cutting his tool gauge to the exact length with the perfectly smooth almost mirror like finish.
> Magic that it was then the perfect height.
> And yes... that was sarcasm.
> 
> ...



Yes, too funny. But he did admit he'd already had it for decades.

Creeping up on the dimension was the hard part for me. I didn't have a mill. So I just faced it till it was good.

As I recall, I did the fine tune on the bottom end of the standard. My standard has a slight cone at the bottom end so it is more tolerant of oil and dirt and sits cleaner. Because I have a cone, it was easier to shave in on the dimension. I got it within a half thou and I was good with that.

Yes, I've heard of machinists making an adjustable standard. Maybe if I was making one today I would do that. A fine 20 TPI thread would even allow you to dial it in!

A concave base is easy to shave though. Plus it's easier to put in the chuck with the big end out!

The nice thing about making a standard is that it's a fun easy project that can be done a thousand different ways. And when you are done you have one of the most useful lathe tools you will ever own.

Lots of guys put a magnet in the base too. I never did that and prolly never will. The old bolt head made a nice wide base.

Edit - I used a steel bolt. I think aluminium would damage too easily.


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## jcdammeyer (Dec 4, 2022)

You realize I'm now going to have to create yet another project #42


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2022)

One more comment.

One of these days I will mill a flat onto the side of it at the top. Others have said that makes it easier to line up with some tools. Since it is round, I can always rotate it for those times a flat isn't perfect.


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## Upnorth (Dec 16, 2022)

First image is what I use to set heights on the mill. Second one sets centre height on the lathe. Both units made by Edge Technology. If you buy the one for the mill there are two versions. I prefer the one with the larger touch down surface.


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## Degen (Dec 16, 2022)

Upnorth said:


> First image is what I use to set heights on the mill. Second one sets centre height on the lathe. Both units made by Edge Technology. If you buy the one for the mill there are two versions. I prefer the one with the larger touch down surface.
> 
> View attachment 28985View attachment 28986


While I love the concept and look of Edge Technology products, the price and accuracy that they work to is somewhat lacking.  Lower cost solutions (but more time and effort) yield can more accurate results which on initial set up directly translate into improved consistent results.

On the lathe I love the simple post gauge method, once configured for you lathe is quick simple and accurate, far beyond that of Edge Technology gauge.


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## DPittman (Dec 16, 2022)

Degen said:


> While I love the concept and look of Edge Technology products, the price and accuracy that they work to is somewhat lacking.  Lower cost solutions (but more time and effort) yield can more accurate results which on initial set up directly translate into improved consistent results.
> 
> On the lathe I love the simple post gauge method, once configured for you lathe is quick simple and accurate, far beyond that of Edge Technology gauge.


I really wanted one of those Edge Technologies devices years ago but I could not justify spending the money on them at the time.  I'm glad I did not spend the money because as you say, the alternative methods can be better and certainly alot cheaper.


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## Upnorth (Dec 17, 2022)

Degen said:


> While I love the concept and look of Edge Technology products, the price and accuracy that they work to is somewhat lacking.  Lower cost solutions (but more time and effort) yield can more accurate results which on initial set up directly translate into improved consistent results.
> 
> On the lathe I love the simple post gauge method, once configured for you lathe is quick simple and accurate, far beyond that of Edge Technology gauge.


I do agree with you about the tool for the lathe. It is not 100% accurate. There is a tiny amount of variation between tool changes. I'm not sure if this is in the interpretation of the bubble position or the tool actually being clamped in the tool post. It's usually accurate enough so that I have no nub left when facing. This is as accurate as I need on the manual lathe.

The height setter for milling tools is amazingly accurate. I can get it within the width of the painted line on the dial face. .0001". Completely accurate and repeatable. I use that tool to set up the tool table on the CNC mill. The unit has a gauge length of 4" and that comes in handy. When I need to calibrate a probe for example. I set up the reference height with the tool height setter and a master tool. I then remove the tool height setter and put in a 2-4-6 block on the 4" side. This removes any movement from the probe electrical system from the numbers when setting probe gauge length. Without using an electronic height setter it couldn't be easier.


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