# Mystery Shaper rejuvenation



## kevin.decelles (Nov 25, 2021)

I'll be using this thread as documentation of my journey to rejuvenate a shaper that came into my collection this summer.  I am using the word rejuvenate vs. restore as my goal is to have it 'functional' vs. having it 'museum' quality.  I've come to enjoy the 'natural-cammo' paint job.

This machine came out of an estate where it sat outside (literally) for maybe 10+ years.  I paid scrap price for it, and took it as a potential project, or perhaps a lawn ornament if it was roached.  Once I had it it in the shop, initial assessment pointed towards this being able to be a functional machine again.    It will be an exercise in de-rusting, de-tarring (yes, tar, more on this to come) and re-assembly.

Here are some of the 'before' pics.


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## Everett (Nov 25, 2021)

This will be interesting to follow, mine was beaten and neglected but yours is certainly a taller challenge than mine was. I went for the functional route vs concourse restoration as well.  It will be cool seeing chip-slinging pics of these after the pics of teardown, repairs, and coming back together!


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 25, 2021)

*Initial assessment:*
Ram is seized (assuming surface rust).  Daily doses of AeroKroil penetrating oil was started
Cut/discarded the drive belts (x3).  
Pulley on the motor turned pretty freely
Clutch mechanism is seized
Table screw/nut could be turned (barely)
Knee bevel/screen could be turned (barely)
Down feed seized
Clapper box seized
There was oil/sludge in the gearbox,  doesn't look like water got in
Yoke is not seized, but is rusted
Bull gear/pinion gear appear to be in good shape
No motor plate on the motor, but is wired for 220V 3phase
Manufacturer tag on motor indicates Odense Denmark
All fasteners are metric

*The positive:*
It wasn't ever painted pink or red
A forum member (@johnnielsen ) has seen this running before
It isn't hydraulic, we're dealing with simple mechanisms.
All fasteners that I've tried do turn once oiled.  Nothing broken yet


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## Tom Kitta (Nov 25, 2021)

That is going to take a while!

Any idea of make and model?


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## Doggggboy (Nov 25, 2021)

At the very least it will help fill in all that empty space in the shop


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 25, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> That is going to take a while!
> 
> Any idea of make and model?



No, we only had the symbol on the down-feed to go by.  We know it is from Europe, motor is Danish, bearings in clutch/flywheel are from Sweden....


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## kevin.decelles (Nov 25, 2021)

Tar.

Well, rust cleanup is going well, but the Achilles heel of the work is a coating of what we surmise as 'tar' on almost every piece.  In some ways it's been good because whatever there is tar on, there is no rust underneath.  The downside is that this stuff is thick, and isn't dissolving easily in anything.  Varsol/Gas seem to work best, and even that is a multiple step process of soak/wipe/scrape...

Either this machine was susceptible to tar in the work place before it went out to pasture, or it picked it up 'in the pasture' so to speak.  It is possible that a roof was tarred in the vicinity.... I recall that the buildings did not have asphalt shingles but had the 'red scallop clay' type roofs.  You can see it in the pictures I posted above.  The down-feed handle is oblong due to the amount of tar on it.


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## Dabbler (Nov 25, 2021)

wow - that's some pretty sticky asphalt.


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## 140mower (Nov 25, 2021)

I too will be following along. It looks like a worthy project for sure. It looks to be a fair size, what is it? 24" stroke?


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## DPittman (Nov 25, 2021)

Fun project.  Looks like a load of work not necessarily a bad thing tho.

My go to tar remover is gasoline.  Ya gotta be careful obviously, but I think it is likely cheaper than most other commercial removers and just as effective in my opinion.


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## Tom Kitta (Nov 25, 2021)

This shaper shares a lot with my shaper - it looks bigger then mine so maybe it is the 18". Mine is 13" it is prema #2. See images online and see how similar it is. maybe you have #3 / 4. 





__





						Prema Shapers - Sweden
					

Prema Shaping machines - built in Sweden during the 1950s and 1960s



					www.lathes.co.uk


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Disassembly and derusting - Downfeed









*


The process (tubs, evaporust, water bathes, fluid-film)







The results!















Some pitting, but overall pleased with the process.


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## YYCHM (Dec 3, 2021)

Interesting that the clapper, holder, and down feed table are numbered?


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Disassembly and Derusting - Drive pulley and Clutch

Before:*





Assessment:  Clutch is seized.  Bearings on clutch/pulley need replacing.  One of the prawls in the clutch is broken (I suspect this was my error on disassembly)



After pics (clutch)







Assessment:  Clutch is in excellent shape (minus the prawl I broke -- second prawl shown in the picture above)

Clutch is a cone drive w/no-media (steel on steel).  The prawl is levered against the inner busing to press cones apart.

I need a picture of the drive-pulley (that came out GREAT!)


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Interesting that the clapper, holder, and down feed table are numbered?



My Von Wyck lathe (~1903 has all numbered parts too).  I think this was common on machines w/castings


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Repair:  Make new Prawl (actually, make two so we have a spare)*

Started with 3/8 piece of steel, machined thickness on CNC mill to 9mm thick.

Etch design, drill hole, band-saw + file for the win.







Assessment:

Original prawls are hardened (confirmed w/file on original)
Interesting design - the shape is not symetrical, and when in use will be rotating at drive RPM rate.  The action on the clutch is all manual and the angle of the tapers on the end are at a soft-enough angle to prevent positive locking with the clutch-dogs


TBD:  Pictures of the new prawls
TBD:  Heat treating of the prawls.


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Teaser:  Results of first home-built EDM test (to be posted in a separate thread later)*

Test:  Take 3/16 brass tube (as electrode) and put hole through razor blade.  Test passed.  (video is cool)


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Unseizing of the Ram and Gib*

The ram and gib were seized on this machine.  I started back in August with a daily spray of AreoKroil and kept this up for about 8 weeks.  I would give it a couple of good whacks with a rubber dead blow hammer every day.  After 7 weeks, I started to see bubbles and vibration in the oil when I tapped (success!)

with a little pressure she came apart







Picture of the ram, on the floor (upside down)















Assessment:

Well, it could be worse.  There was quite a bit of rust on the non-precision side of the gib.   The oil-paths in the gib were also full of rust/crud.


To soak the gib I used a piece of 2" PVC with a cap and evaporust







After pics of the GIB


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

Derusting the Ram - Resizable coffin needed

In looking at the remaining pieces to derust - I lack a tub and quantity of evaporust to be successful at a full immersion.  This is OK as I only want to target the business-surfaces, such as the ways on the Ram, the ways on the base (vertical knee + top).  I really only need about 5" of evaporust, but will need to dip/soak the parts which will mean inverting/dipping the base.  Cumbersome, but doable.

To avoid making separate boxes/forms for all pieces I went with a hinged design that allows me to resize my box for each piece.  For a bladder I'm using standard 6mm vapor barrier.

Here is the coffin:






I didn't hinge the two 'ends', but the size that is hinged can be made smaller as required.

Another pic:






And the dipping candidate (a shout out to my 1-ton gantry crane from PA)













Add evaporust






Cook for 2 days, then flip..... (looking good!)


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Shaper Table - Removal and Derusting*

















Assessment:  Table is near flawless (slots/surfaces).  This is going to come out great.


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

Some time context..... 

Shaper was acquired in late August.   Pictures to this point (December 3rd) represent the progress.


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Heat-treating the prawls*

I dusted off the kiln (thx @Johnwa )  which will be used to heat treat these prawls.  Overkill (I could do a lot of them) but good excuse to convince the better half that I need a kiln.  I use a simple PID w/SSR to manage temperature.  For tempering I'll either use a toaster oven (thx @Janger ) or my other kiln (preheated and ready)

I fired it to 800C the other night -- ready to go this weekend.






TBD:  During/after pics


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 3, 2021)

*Motor?*

The motor on the shaper was 'free' and the pulley turned, but the bearings will likely need to be replaced.  There is no motor plate, but the plug was wired for 220V 3ph.  A manufacturers tag plate is there, but it is all but not-readable except for Odense Denmark.  I took the electrical cover off, it was packed with crud and rust.  so I cleaned that out.

I pulled the end covers off, wiped off the spider webs, blew out the dead bugs and dirt, then degreased everything (using Paslode corldess nailer degreaser  -- i'm a fan now).  I didn't see anything wrong so put it back together, greased the bearings and fired it up with a 7.5HP RPC (thx @RobinHood )


A little loud.... but she runs.  Let is run for 45 minutes, motor is cool (neigh - cold) to the touch.


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## YYCHM (Dec 3, 2021)

Great progress Kevin  You buying evaporust by the 45gal drum 

Look forward to seeing her slice off some BIG chips.


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## Dabbler (Dec 3, 2021)

Kevin I am super impressed!  that is a LOT of work doen already!  I cannot believe that the motor still runs - boggles the mind.


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## 6.5 Fan (Dec 4, 2021)

Great pics and write up. I have a question though, what's with all the unused floor space we see in some pics?


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## Susquatch (Dec 4, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Great pics and write up. I have a question though, what's with all the unused floor space we see in some pics?



That's so he has room to dance when a hot chip or a weld blob strikes a high note!


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## Brent H (Dec 4, 2021)

Awesome work Kevin!!  Sounds like a certain rust remover needs to sponsor you!!   Very nice indeed.


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## RobinHood (Dec 4, 2021)

Very well and clearly documented, Kevin. I like it.

Your project is a perfect example of “slow and steady wins the race”. Having seen the shaper as purchased, what an awesome transformation.

Good job.


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## DPittman (Dec 4, 2021)

Went from a heap of unusable iron to something that shows great promise.  Nice work man.


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## historicalarms (Dec 4, 2021)

Could that tar substance be cosmoline poured on to try to protect the thing eons ago and most of it 'weathered off" over time?

     Not sure about roofing tar but if it is asphalt tar/tack oil, the absolute best to remove that stuff is diesel fuel to remove build-up of thick spots and then a small bit of regular gas to take the remaining stain off. Just spray the diesel on and watch the tar start to run off. Every person ever employed in the paving industry is never more than an arms length away from a hand weed sprayer filled with diesel.


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## BMW Rider (Dec 4, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> *View attachment 18697*


Those commercial baking pans are much like the ones I have for use as parts trays.


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## Dabbler (Dec 4, 2021)

@historicalarms Since we know the original owner and the last one, we can surmise it was because he was doing a DIY roof patch on the little shelter next to the shaper, and spilled some plastic cement on it...

Def not cosmoline, that's for sure!


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 4, 2021)

BMW Rider said:


> Those commercial baking pans are much like the ones I have for use as parts trays.


Found those at a garage sale.  Super handy.


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## BMW Rider (Dec 5, 2021)

kevin.decelles said:


> Found those at a garage sale.  Super handy.


Mine have been used for parts trays for decades, I got them from my Dad's shop after he shut it down, he got them from my Uncle with a bunch of other stuff from his shop. I ran across some info online a while back that those pans are worth some pretty good prices in good condition. Mine are way past that and like you said, are super handy.


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 24, 2022)

ok, a month later...... still working it daily.  Shaper is completely torn down, no more assemblies to remove.

It's been a non-stop process of remove, degrease, de-rust, repeat.

some pictures:

Ram after de-rusting





Apron removed





Bull gear removed





Top of apron BEFORE removal






Apron disassembled





Yoke/bull-gear BEFORE removal





Yoke after about 4 hours of figuring out how to get it out of there


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 24, 2022)

More pics....

Just a shell of its former self





Separating the base from the cage




After some back and forth with @Brent H  about HVLP painting, a first look at the chosen color.  Yeah, I'm a sucker for 'russian-implement-green' as I call it.






Main drive gear.  Believe it or not, no ball bearings.  All bronze bushing 





A peak at some of the drive train after de-rusting/cleanup.






de-rusting the table.  Not enough product to immerse it, so painfully slow '6-sided-dice' approach











Switched to tupperware bin for wide-sides.  You can see the results on the side facing up in this pic.






Transmission on the bench


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## YYCHM (Jan 24, 2022)

What's the grey machine behind the yoke with all the dials and hand wheels?

I think your yoke is just a tad larger than mine LOL....


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 24, 2022)

Surface Grinder.


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 24, 2022)

So the main casting is one piece and includes the top V-ways as well as the ways for the main apron.  Both are heavily rusted.  I figure the casting is 600-800 pounds.  Even a 55 gallon drum of product won't immerse this bad-boy, so I continued to use my resizeable soaking coffin assembly.

Step 1, invert the casting and dip the v-ways.   









Step 2, rotate 90-degrees and soak the front ways.  The threaded rod I'm using to lift this is a multi-purpose tool, last seen pulling the pistons out of my ford tractor.






So is it working?  You tell me, a pic of the v-ways from the back side while soaking the front-ways






Looking pretty good.

Time for a break


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 24, 2022)

And more!

Transmission disassembled.  The shaft that is sitting on top of the casting is crazy.  It has 7 different diameters, is threaded in 3 places and has the gears cut into it.....  Needless to say it only goes in one way 






Prepping for paint






I'm a disciple of the @Brent H school of painting.  To boil it down............  put a 2mm needle in 'er and give 'er hell!






I should mention, I'm not a fanatic on finish.... no bondo/filler on this unit.

The ram silently waiting its turn on the paint bench


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## deleted_user (Jan 24, 2022)

That Sir is one awesome rejuvenation. It is great that you can save this from the scrap heap of time.

I keep a few cheap submersible fountain pumps on hand to pump evaporust continually over oversized items I can't completely get submerged. My pumps even came with fan attachment to fan out the flow for greater coverage. You do lose more to evaporation tho


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## Dabbler (Jan 24, 2022)

That shaper is in far better condition than I imagined!

Thanks for taking the risk on this project!


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 25, 2022)

You are going to have a real nice machine when your finished. Congrats


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## Susquatch (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That Sir is one awesome rejuvenation. It is great that you can save this from the scrap heap of time.
> 
> I keep a few cheap submersible fountain pumps on hand to pump evaporust continually over oversized items I can't completely get submerged. My pumps even came with fan attachment to fan out the flow for greater coverage. You do lose more to evaporation tho



Sounds like a great solution. Can you provide a source for your pump & fan?


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## Brent H (Jan 25, 2022)

Nice job Kevin!! The Russian ghetto Graffiti gang would be proud!!!  Looks like you got the correct blend of paint/vodka - excellent!!!  

Your Andy Warhol on the back wall  is fantastic!!  Things are “shaping” up


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> keep a few cheap submersible fountain pumps on hand to pump evaporust continually over oversized items I can't completely get submerged. My pumps even came with fan attachment to fan out the flow for greater coverage. You do lose more to evaporation tho



How well does that work?  I never considered a flowing stream........ I may look into that.  Thx for the tip!


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## deleted_user (Jan 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Sounds like a great solution. Can you provide a source for your pump & fan?


I can't find the ones I ordered from amazon years ago that had the fan shaped nozzle but this is similar.

Those with a 3D printer can print any shape nozzle they want though. Or just search more on amazon and they should have something good. Just be mindful you dont want tons of flow or head pressure... you want a river of solution not a geyser



			Amazon.ca


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## deleted_user (Jan 25, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> How well does that work?  I never considered a flowing stream........ I may look into that.  Thx for the tip!


I found that the moving evaporust works better than still, so I started putting a single pump in the tub I used for rust removal, it circulated the solution and seems to make the process go faster. 

One day I could not submerge a part totally and I had an aha moment.  I attached a length of vinyl tubing onto the pump and affixed the tube to point down onto the part to bath it in solution. I used a heavy old breaker stand with a clip to hold the tube in place and be able to move the placement around every so often.


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## Susquatch (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I can't find the ones I ordered from amazon years ago that had the fan shaped nozzle but this is similar.
> 
> Those with a 3D printer can print any shape nozzle they want though. Or just search more on amazon and they should have something good. Just be mindful you dont want tons of flow or head pressure... you want a river of solution not a geyser
> 
> ...



Thanks very much for the link. 

Wondering about the fan nozzle. Is that like a flat spray?


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## deleted_user (Jan 25, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Thanks very much for the link.
> 
> Wondering about the fan nozzle. Is that like a flat spray?


yes

It looked like this but was injection moulded plastic. It spreads the flow across a wider surface pretty well and when it comes with the pump it's a bonus


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> yes
> 
> It looked like this but was injection moulded plastic. It spreads the flow across a wider surface pretty well and when it comes with the pump it's a bonus



Cool looking nozzle on its own merit! 

I'm getting the picture I think. This is like one of those pumps for a backyard water garden tub. 

I've never used Evaporust but I have a few jobs for it. I was planning to use a tub and a kitchen scrub cloth. But if it works without labour, bonus!


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> It looked like this but was injection moulded plastic.



I couldn't find anything like that made from plastic but I did find one quite similar on Amazon for $22.  Too steep for the purpose. But I think I could probably make that out of brass or copper pipe pressed over a piece of flat stock acting as a mandrel in my shop press. I don't need the fancy spray pattern - just a nice bath.

I also have lots of flat spray nozzles for my field crop sprayer, but they are too small and are designed for high pressure. Maybe that would be ok in an enclosed chamber.....


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## RobinHood (Jan 26, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> yes
> 
> It looked like this but was injection moulded plastic. It spreads the flow across a wider surface pretty well and when it comes with the pump it's a bonus


That is a thing of beauty and very “complicated” for what it does.

Look up “hydro shield“ fire nozzle. It does the same thing, only better and is dead simple to make. It consists of a plate at the end of an open hose. Make the distance the plate is from the opening adjustable, regulate the pressure/flow of the liquid in the pipe and you can create just about any pattern you desire. Make the size of plate/hose combo to fit your needs.

We used the hydro shield in our fire department to protect assets (both human and otherwise) against a flame front.

Here is a little video of one hooked up to what looks like a 4” line.


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## RobinHood (Jan 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I also have lots of flat spray nozzles for my field crop sprayer, but they are too small and are designed for high pressure. Maybe that would be ok in an enclosed chamber.....



Take an old one and drill out the hole as required. The pressure will drop and the flat plate will control the spray pattern. Dirt cheap (as you already have it) and customizable in a few minutes.


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## deleted_user (Jan 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Cool looking nozzle on its own merit!
> 
> I'm getting the picture I think. This is like one of those pumps for a backyard water garden tub.
> 
> I've never used Evaporust but I have a few jobs for it. I was planning to use a tub and a kitchen scrub cloth. But if it works without labour, bonus!



What I got was exactly those little container fountain pumps with low head pressure.


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> We used the hydro shield in our fire department to protect assets (both human and otherwise) against a flame front.



Funny, my middle son is a fireman. He never mentioned that one to me.


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Take an old one and drill out the hole as required. The pressure will drop and the flat plate will control the spray pattern. Dirt cheap (as you already have it) and customizable in a few minutes.



Hmmmmm....... Here is a photo of one with a looney beside it.... 

Be a great test of my new micro drill chuck if that would actually work......


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 1, 2022)

Next round of painting


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 1, 2022)

And some post-paint looks






Putting the halves back together


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 1, 2022)

Timely package from BearingsCanada (first time customer)..... wow.  shipped next day, here in 5 business days, package was correct.  Not cheap.... but correct.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 1, 2022)

And time to fix one of the few broken pieces.  The bevel gear on the table was missing some chiclets......






Plan:  Tig Welder, silicon bronze, gear cutter..............


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 5, 2022)

Some more items getting some color

Transmission housing / lid,  belt guard, main bearing housings, down feed casting.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 5, 2022)

Time for some re-assembly pics

Main bearing housing, attaches with 4-bolts and two-alignment pins





Secondary housing that slips over the main housing (such a nice fit, you can just hear it 'ring' as metal kisses metal.






Casting for the knee screw.






Bull gear installed and drive gear housing/gear installed


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 5, 2022)

And a flashback to what this used to look like


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## John Conroy (Feb 5, 2022)

Looking good Kevin, very nice work!


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## DPittman (Feb 5, 2022)

Ooo she's goin' to look purty!


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## Tomc938 (Feb 5, 2022)

Question:  in the third picture from the bottom the gear teeth look to be cut on an angle.  Is it he picture angle or are they cu that way.  If so, why?  (perhaps stronger as they are slightly longer??)

Just curious.


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## LeakyCanoe (Feb 5, 2022)

Tomc938 said:


> Question: in the third picture from the bottom the gear teeth look to be cut on an angle. Is it he picture angle or are they cu that way. If so, why? (perhaps stronger as they are slightly longer??)



Tom - check out this link for what I understand to be the explanation...

https://www.tec-science.com/mechanical-power-transmission/gear-types/helical-gears/


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## Tomc938 (Feb 5, 2022)

LeakyCanoe said:


> Tom - check out this link for what I understand to be the explanation...
> 
> https://www.tec-science.com/mechanical-power-transmission/gear-types/helical-gears/


Thanks!  Reading the article everything makes sense.  I never knew that about reverse.  I mean I knew it was louder, just didn't know why.


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## John Conroy (Feb 5, 2022)

I've never cut a bevel gear but Keith Rucker did a pretty good video on the process.


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## deleted_user (Feb 5, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> I've never cut a bevel gear buy Keith Rucker did a pretty good video on the process.



This is VERY handy skill to have if you want to make flywheel governor for a stationary steam engine...


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## LeakyCanoe (Feb 5, 2022)

...and when you get that shaper completed Kevin you can "cut your teeth" on it too !

Here's a handy link to doing that...

https://www.antiquemachinery.com/gear_cutting.htm


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## YYCHM (Feb 5, 2022)

Kevin,

You should hold an unveiling and first chip ceremony.  I'd be there for sure.

Craig


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 6, 2022)

Had a setback last night......  operator error, 100%.

Disassembling the yoke, had to press out the pins.  First two pins went smoothly, third pin, ended up cracking the casting in two spots.  Was pressing out from the top, didn't compensate for the pin being seized in the lower end.  Next time.....  will approach this differently.











Ok, no point whining about it, my fault, but in looking at the casting ends, was there something at work here already?  Look at the casting where it attached to the webbing, specifically the discoloration.  Is this an indicator of anything (rust/oil/seepage, an existing crack?)






And for comparison, the other end:







So, where is the silver lining?  Well, it's not the RAM casting, or the bull-gear, or the table, or the apron.  Of all the pieces to break, this one is hidden from view and I think there are multiple ways to approach the repair.

1. Braze/weld
2. Fabricate from steel
3. Cast one from Aluminum?  

This piece attaches to the main casting at the bottom with a 1" pin.  the other side is the pivot for the yoke, so lots of rocking back/forth, but the lion share of the load is handled by the slide-block /bull-gear.  

I've never had great success at brazing or welding cast.  My spider sense tells me that the strength won't be there.  I'll always have the part for reference, and having it in the machine would be ideal but isn't critical to me.   Fabricating a piece out of steel is probably the sure bet, and the easiest to do.  Casting one out of aluminum is also doable.  The strength of an aluminum casting doesn't worry me -- think swing-arm on any motorcycle.  

Any how, part of the journey is making mistakes.   If I were pressing it out again I'd have shimmed all gaps between the pieces so there was no play, or pre-heated/soaked with penetrating oil, or all the above.


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## kevin.decelles (Feb 6, 2022)

So what did go right yesterday?  The electric motor re-assembly!  put the pieces back together and replaced the through-rods and bearings.  Fired it up and it is whisper quiet now.  And yes, there is a missing piece in the pulley-end cooling fin casting -- this was pre-existing, I didn't abuse it in the shop press!


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## Dabbler (Feb 6, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> multiple ways to approach the repair.


This Old Tony might have a timely answer...  He details his exact process and gives good info:


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## DPittman (Feb 6, 2022)

I'd braze it myself.  I don't think you have anything to loose.  Matter of fact if you do a poor job you can unbraze it and try again or go to plan B.  Make sure you V out the Crack some for braze fill and grind to clean metal.  I've brazed various things with good success.  I don't have the equipment and experience with welding cast iron and so my few attempts at have not been successful but it appears that is a very good solution if you know what your doing.
One of the brazings of cast iron I did that turned out surprisingly well was with the jaws of a bench vise.  I was unmercifully twisting on a pipe in the jaws of a big 6" cheap Asian vise when and the jaws on one side broke out.  LOTS of heat and braze rod but the repair has been successful and that was 6-8 years ago.


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## Dabbler (Feb 6, 2022)

DPittman said:


> I don't have the equipment and experience with welding cast iron


The 'welding' thing is more like a hybrid brazing/welding.  it uses 80-90% nickel riods to 'weld' the pieces together...


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## Susquatch (Feb 6, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> Ok, no point whining about it, my fault, but in looking at the casting ends, was there something at work here already? Look at the casting where it attached to the webbing, specifically the discoloration. Is this an indicator of anything (rust/oil/seepage, an existing crack?)



Stop fussing. It was not your fault. That is a very typical cast iron failure mode. It was cracked before you did anything.


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## deleted_user (Feb 6, 2022)

Hey Kevin,

I agree that this looks to have had a previous issue and an initial crack.

I have another approach you may want to try. One I'd want to preserve the part as clean as possible so I'd not want to try brazing or welding as a first option.

Your project has a certain cool factor that will interest people.  Your project deserves as good a "rejuvenation" as you can provide it. That means using a cast iron piece rather than aluminum if at all possible.

I've long had a plan that if I ever had a significant restoration where I had a large cast iron member break I'd start contacting every youtuber who works in cast iron and has a decent audience. Then I'd appeal to them to cast the piece for me. I'd offer to pay a small fee and provide content on the restoration for them to use on their channel. Most good tubers always want good channel content related to the theme of their channel.

Simultaneously, I'd work on  a back up plan, while taking video and stills of the process.

In that case I'd prepare a pattern for casting the part by doing the following :

clean the broken pieces as much as possible, 
insert turned to size stepped wood rod in the machined bores* 
cast pieces in epoxy,
epoxy the two "broken" cast pieces back together.

*Required to create the core print. The step at either end is required to decrease the size of the machined bores so that you have machining tolerance when final part is cast. I'd measure the size and location of the bores as accurately as I could, then calculate a an end core size small enough to leave sufficient machining tolerance.

When completed you'd have a model of the part. 

At this point I'd determine whether or not I'd want to repair it further to fill in the chunk of web that appears to have previously been broken out of the part. 

It is hard to judge the size of the part, but I'd think that there should be extra meat on that part that it could be recast without adding shrinkage factor. Cut the part in half along the separation line and you have your two pattern pieces for cast iron or aluminum casting

If you want to be very precise you can use expanding epoxy formulas to try to scale up the part minutely to composite for shrinkage

BUT my main point is, seek help from a tuber motivated to help because they need good content. I'd watch


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## John Conroy (Feb 6, 2022)

It was definitely cracked before. I'd be tempted to make a new one from steel. What are the dimensions?


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## deleted_user (Feb 6, 2022)

John Conroy said:


> It was definitely cracked before. I'd be tempted to make a new one from steel. What are the dimensions?


had to tell from the perspectives the photos were taken while Kevin was holding them, but I got the impression that the web that had previously cracked was about 1/2"

The upper end of the member cross section about 1 3/4" x 3" and the lower end maybe 1 1/2" x 3", we know the pin penetrated the one end.. overall maybe 13" long?  Lets see how close I am when kevin replies


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## Dabbler (Feb 6, 2022)

@kevin.decelles 
- perhaps you know someone that does sand casting?  If it is a moderate stress part you could use brass or CI for a good looking replacement.


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## deleted_user (Feb 6, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @kevin.decelles
> - perhaps you know someone that does sand casting?  If it is a moderate stress part you could use brass or CI for a good looking replacement.


he owes it to the machine to try.


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## johnnielsen (Feb 6, 2022)

If you are going to stick the pieces back together, it is advisable to try tig or stick weld (NI ROD 99% is my preference) first as brazing makes it impossible to do either afterwards as brass/bronze doesn't play well with any type of arcweld. Speaking from experience.


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## DPittman (Feb 6, 2022)

johnnielsen said:


> If you are going to stick the pieces back together, it is advisable to try tig or stick weld (NI ROD 99% is my preference) first as brazing makes it impossible to do either afterwards as brass/bronze doesn't play well with any type of arcweld. Speaking from experience.


It shouldn't be too hard to remove all brazing with a bit more grinding.  But yes any left will cause problems with welding.


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## RobinHood (Feb 6, 2022)

Kevin, yes it broke while you were getting the pin out, but it was already missing a large junk of the web (red box) and the ear was cracked part way through (as shown by the discolouration).






I would make one from steel. Or get one cast from CI (that could get expensive).

I don’t think aluminum will be strong enough.


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## DPittman (Feb 6, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Kevin, yes it broke while you were getting the pin out, but it was already missing a large junk of the web (red box) and the ear was cracked part way through (as shown by the discolouration).
> 
> View attachment 20771
> 
> ...


Alternatively, a pin could be made to go from one arm to another and welded/brazed in.


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## Susquatch (Feb 7, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> Fabricating a piece out of steel is probably the sure bet, and the easiest to do.



Hey Kevin, I never did vote. Just said it wasn't your fault. If this happened to me, (and similar things have), I would make this out of four pieces of steel (two arms, the spindle, and a web) and then have someone who knows how to weld put them all together for me. That's a really beefy looking part and it cracked in use so I'm not in favour of making a casting. I'd vote for a steel replacement.

Edit - my forum portal is glitchy. I didn't see @RobinHood's reply till after I posted. Obviously I agree! 

My only real concern would be the distortion that welding would generate. Maybe machine the three holes afterward?


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## Brent H (Feb 7, 2022)

Hey Kevin, looks like you have the correct mix of vodka with the paint!  Way to go!  

On the part breaking it looks like the first failure point was already established and probably a blessing it broke when you think about safety and the machine running and then having it break!  Yikes!! 

For a repair I would suggest making it out of steel.   If we were closer I would try to weld it for you with the funky nickel mig wire. 

Very nice job so far!!


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## Susquatch (Feb 7, 2022)

Brent H said:


> probably a blessing it broke when you think about safety and the machine running and then having it break! Yikes!!



Amen! 

For the record, I think there is waaaay too much paint in the vodka.


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 5, 2022)

Reassembling the transmission (all new bearings/seals)










Primary shaft and clutch


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 5, 2022)

Ok, onto the bevel gears.... decided not to cut the gears for this as I don't have all the correct cutters (I will cut them once I get the cutters, but spring is coming!)

I decided to try ordering from KHK gears out of the USA (distributor for the Japanese arm).  Short answer, not cheap (about $45 USD / gear + 45 for shipping.  But,  great service, great communication, fast response time -- I would definitely order again.  The packing is impressive.  Each gear came sealed in it's own package, blackened finish, 100% to spec.    The offer Canada Post shipping (risky, but was nice as I was on vacation for 2 weeks).  They emailed to say that UPS was the same price.... I said I doubt it once they deliver it, hold me hostage on the duty/customs and pretend that they can't deliver to my acreage.   Canada Post please.  No problems.

The nice part is that they provide CAD drawings for all the parts so I was able to print models to dry fit etc.

After receiving, I decided to use on of the original cast-iron gears w/new gear.  I had to enlarge the bore from 16mm to 19mm, and had to take about about 0.100 on the base to ensure a smooth fit on the casting.
















Mounted and meshed!


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 5, 2022)

As a side note, the original shaper did not have a thrust bearing below the knee/apron... I added a 14mm thick bearing to make this more 'bearable'.

This required drilling new holes for the pin, and I opted for roll-pins vs. tapered pins as I'm not good at the taper pin reaming (yet).


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## Janger (Mar 5, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> As a side note, the original shaper did not have a thrust bearing below the knee/apron... I added a 14mm thick bearing to make this more 'bearable'.
> 
> This required drilling new holes for the pin, and I opted for roll-pins vs. tapered pins as I'm not good at the taper pin reaming (yet).


Looking good Kevin!


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## Janger (Mar 5, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Kevin, yes it broke while you were getting the pin out, but it was already missing a large junk of the web (red box) and the ear was cracked part way through (as shown by the discolouration).
> 
> View attachment 20771
> 
> ...


For the already broken web - what happened there? Fatigue? Damage? Any thoughts ?


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## Dabbler (Mar 5, 2022)

that is a really, really nice rebbuild, Kevin!  My hat's off to you!


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## Brent H (Mar 5, 2022)

Go Kevin Go!!!!   Excellent work!!


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 5, 2022)

Janger said:


> For the already broken web - what happened there? Fatigue? Damage? Any thoughts ?



I figure a crack or inclusion in the casting .  This part is really under zero stress , limited weight .


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 6, 2022)

That is going to be a sharp looking machine.


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## kevin.decelles (Mar 11, 2022)

Alrighty!  Engine and Transmission time!

Got the motor and tranny mounted this past weekend, changed out the chain to one w/adjustable linkage, and affixed 3 new belts.  

The tranny bolts on w/4 bolts to the main casting.  To adjust chain tension the bolts had been let out and a 1/4 flat bar was inserted behind as a shim.  I changed this out to use 4 studs w/adjusting nuts instead.  This makes chain adjustments easy.   First two pics show it bolted (no pic of the sagging chain which prompted the use of the stud, picture #3 shows the changeover to studs).

The clutch mechanism is currently still disassembled as I need to make new engagement-shoes.   Happy to say the motor runs smoothly and the tranny functions as expected (engaging clutch with a piece of wood.  The yoke is out as well so the ram has yet to move.

Went with ISO68 in the gearbox.   Original design - no drain plug.  I drilled/tapped one in as an upgrade.


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## Everett (Mar 11, 2022)

That is turning into a beautiful machine, nice work!


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## jcdammeyer (Mar 11, 2022)

I am so envious.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 14, 2022)

I just read this whole thread ,   very Ambitious !!! , awesome build !!!


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## RobinHood (Mar 14, 2022)

Awesome job Kevin!


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 4, 2022)

It is Shrouded in mystery!  not really, but I managed to get the belt/chain shrouds mounted, and the table on the apron












Ok, and the final piece to address is the broken casting that supports the yoke.  I with with a couple pieces of 2" square steel machined out to the original shape.  I used a piece of 3/8" plate to join them (slotted both pieces) etc. 

I pre-bored the two pieces and 'attempted' to weld the assembly up using pins to align.  It worked 'ok' but warping/deflection is inevitable.  To get it aligned, I ended up using the 20-ton press and heat.  The end result was nicely aligned.

Confession:  Boring 1 1/8" holes is not my forte.  I tried a number of methods (none on the lathe) including MT-4 drill bit (thx Tom Kitta), fly-cutter type boring (super-drill), etc..  The best solution was a 2" deep annular cutter from Amazon.....    That and the mag drill.  Cuts like butter.

I botched one hole badly, which led to the solution of a new-pin with two diameters.  I wasn't making another piece from 2" steel.











The pin has a register on it now, with flats milled so you can get a wrench on it to turn.  The yoke cannot come out without the pin removed (see next pic), and you can't hammer out the pin from the other side.  This way, the next time it will be easier.

Reinstalling the yoke , tight tolerances,






and finally....................   Ram attached and the rest of the finer bits assembled.


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## 6.5 Fan (Apr 4, 2022)

Looks to pretty now, best to build a glass cover over it and just stare at it.


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 4, 2022)

So what's left?    Ball-oiler/oil-cups all around (on order), and alignment, alignment alignment.  I am in the process of adjusting the GIB on the ram, and this is going better and better.  The machine has 4 speeds, and it works in the first two, but the higher gears (faster) stall the motor (no belt slip, just stalls the motor).  I'm getting too much resistance on the return stroke which from the research is all about the adjustment.

Getting the yoke in place was a lot of work -- every inch (actually, every 1/2 inch) of room inside is required.  The transmission was originally mounted with 4 studs into the casting.  3 out of the 4 were in bad shape, so I enlarged/re-tapped for a new stud and on the inside I put a 1/2" nut on the back of the stud........  Well, the width of the nut interferes with the yoke on the return stroke.  


I also have some thoughts on how the casting broke internally.  On the bull-gear, the stroke-adjustment screw was damaged -- (mushroomed out).  I suspect that the stroke was cranked all the way out (and then some once the bolt was forced).  This caused the yoke to come back just slightly more than it was allowed to, hitting the web on the casting (busting it out) and causing the crack.  There is zero room for play in there, and the eventual wear likely led to the downfall.


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 4, 2022)

Still not sure on the manufacturer, but I've seen some machines by  Jochnick & Norrman that look 'similar'.  If you stare hard enough at the down-feed you can kind of see a J, maybe an N?  They are/were based out of Sweden, and this machine was definitely from over there.


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## Hruul (Apr 4, 2022)

Well Done.  I am always in awe when one of the members here finds a way to fix a busted machine.  I have so much to learn.


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## johnnielsen (Apr 4, 2022)

It's flippin beautiful!


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## YYCHM (Apr 27, 2022)

Hey Kevin,

Does this machine have graduated dials indicating H/V table displacement?  I'm not seeing any in the images.

Craig


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## John Conroy (Apr 27, 2022)

Great job Kevin!! I agree with John N., it's beautiful.


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 27, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Does this machine have graduated dials indicating H/V table displacement? I'm not seeing any in the images.


On the vertical, there is on the tool-post down-feed crank there is a graduated dial (so you can measure it off) -- but not on the knee
On the horizontal, there is a graduated dial on the crank to indicate how much step over is occurring etc.


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## YYCHM (Apr 27, 2022)

Does the tool head and/or knee auto feed?  I would imagine the table auto feeds horizontally?


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## Johnwa (Apr 27, 2022)

Great looking machine.  I hope the paint doesn’t get scratched when you launch it with a bottle of champagne!


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