# Rockford CNC Lathe Revival



## Hutch (Oct 15, 2018)

This is my first post and current project (so go easy on me if this isn't any good!). I am in the process of restoring a circa 1999 Rockford Pro2000 CNC lathe (this is the North American version of the Hercus PC200) and is a very well built unit (they were made in Australia). The machine arrived to me in decent shape but had a failed spindle driver and needed a deep clean. I have almost got it beat (I am in the final process of fine tuning). Here's what I have got so far!


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## Hutch (Oct 15, 2018)

And...here's where I am as of today; the machine is cleaned, properly lubricated (using OEM fluids and grease), and the new spindle driver is installed (and working!).


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## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2018)

That looks like a nice machine!


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## Tom O (Oct 16, 2018)

Nice!


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## Janger (Oct 16, 2018)

Where did you find that? Very cool machine. What is the control? Mach3 or? 

Looks like you’ve got a Cnc mill back there too?


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## Hutch (Oct 16, 2018)

Janger said:


> Where did you find that? Very cool machine. What is the control? Mach3 or?
> 
> Looks like you’ve got a Cnc mill back there too?



I found it in Victoria (I'm in Calgary) and the gentleman selling it crated it for me and sent it over! It spent most of its life in Washington though. I've been doing a bunch of learning about it and Hercus put quite a bit of care into making them, its fitted with ballscrews, servos, and an 8 tool turret (that's driven with a stepper motor). It's still running the original Rockford/Hercus control software on an old PC...its actually pretty decent and easy to use and seems pretty stable. 

Yeah, I have a Prolight 1000 CNC mill in the background, it has been retrofitted with Clearpath servos, a Vital Systems Motion controller, and is running Mach4. I'll post a better pic here (am I allowed to do that in this thread??). 

More pictures of the lathe tomorrow, it's just about 100%!!


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## Everett (Oct 17, 2018)

That's a very cool setup.  Looking forward to seeing what you've drawn in CAD come to life!


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## Tom O (Oct 17, 2018)

I came from Victoria in the 80’s.


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## Janger (Oct 17, 2018)

The tool turret is pretty neat. How are the tools mounted? Do you need tool holders?


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## Hutch (Oct 17, 2018)

Janger said:


> The tool turret is pretty neat. How are the tools mounted? Do you need tool holders?



The turret uses cam nuts to hold the tool and accepts 3/8" (or 10mm) tools. It also came with 3 tool holders for boring bars (and the like.


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## Hutch (Oct 17, 2018)

And finally; done! Machine is fully functional (for the first time in a long time I would imagine), even the calculator on the pendant works!


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## Alexander (Oct 18, 2018)

wow that is some high-end compact equipment. I like small CNC equipment,good quality hobby sized machines are very difficult to find. you have a couple of winners there.


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## RobinHood (Oct 18, 2018)

^^^ +1 that is really nice. Good job on getting it going again.


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## Hutch (Oct 18, 2018)

Alexander said:


> wow that is some high-end compact equipment. I like small CNC equipment,good quality hobby sized machines are very difficult to find. you have a couple of winners there.





RobinHood said:


> ^^^ +1 that is really nice. Good job on getting it going again.


Thanks guys! It has been a real process but it was quite a bit of fun. I actually listed it today on Kijiji...I found another lathe...the sibling to my Prolight mill! It looks to be in rougher shape, but with enough time (and I'm sure money), it should be awesome. If anyone is interested in the Rockford lathe, let me know! Price is negotiable!


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## Janger (Dec 1, 2021)

I'm taking over this thread. I bought the machine from Hutch. The electronics were somewhat flaky and the software was very dated, windows 98?, etc. etc. So I took the plunge and had a willing friend (and I paid him) gut it and replace all the electronics, servos, drives, controller. It now has a centroid acorn controller with some clearpath servos and other bits. I have finally taken the time to figure out various things and get it calibrated. It now will run basic hand bombed cnc programs.  I still have to get the tool changer figured out and the spindle blows motor drive fuses when I run it over 3000 rpm. Still it's working. Here are some pics.











A few details for those who want to know more. The bottom board is the centroid acorn board. The red gecko drive operates the tool changer. The tall black relay thing is the contactor to engage the 240 volt power. the lathe has two plugs, one 110V for the electronics and servos. The second plug is 240V to run the spindle. The contactor engages the 240V to the minarik drive which runs the spindle. The spindle drive is housed in an external blue box sitting on top of the lathe. All the parts won't fit inside the enclosure. what else... Lower down in the second picture of the inside you can see above the fan is a big aluminium heat sink thing, that is the x and z axis servo drives. last box above that is the low voltage power supply for the boards.


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## Janger (Dec 1, 2021)

Finally the whole thing is controlled from a windows 10 PC. Ethernet runs from the computer to the acorn board for communication. The software is CNC 11 from centroid and it's their proprietary lathe/mill cnc control software. It also has a touchscreen windows screen. I'm not as pleased with the touch screen as I thought I would be as real buttons are much easier to manipulate while you have your eye on the tool. I'm thinking about buying the wireless pendant that they sell.

First part.


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## Janger (Dec 1, 2021)

I ordered two small jacobs drill chucks which I will mount to the 90 degree tool holders. I'll have to make a special 3/8-NF to 0.625" diameter adapter. Sounds like a good lathe project. I hope it will do threading but it may need another upgrade for that to work.


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## Janger (Dec 1, 2021)

Here are a couple historic photos. This is the original insides before we gutted it. 





The old computer had a couple AT boards inside and big D connector cables went from there to the control in the lathe.


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## Dabbler (Dec 1, 2021)

Wow that was some huge project @Janger     Congratulations on getting it fully operational!


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## Tom O (Dec 1, 2021)

That looks good definitely a big plus for your shop.


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## kevin.decelles (Dec 2, 2021)

Good to see you getting back to the project!


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## Janger (Dec 4, 2021)

Hey forum. 
I keep blowing fuses trying to run the little guy at 3000 rpm. The motor says 2500 rpm on the plate. It’s a dc motor. The fuses are 8amp. There are two of them in the minarik brand motor drive. Any advice here?


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## YYCHM (Dec 4, 2021)

Are you just trialing here or do you actually need to run it at 3000 RPM?  That's twice+ what my lathe is rated for


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2021)

Do you have a multimeter with a current clamp?  that's the first step in diagnosing the problem


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## Tom O (Dec 5, 2021)

Can you change the sprockets to increase the rpm rather than pushing a 2500 rpm motor past its rating?


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## Janger (Dec 5, 2021)

I’ve decided to limit the speed in the software to 2500 rpm. Then I’m not pushing anything past it’s limit. That will work.


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## Tom O (Dec 5, 2021)

Same as the Haas then I have to change the feed rate from 650 to 400 for the program to work using fusion 360.


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## Janger (Dec 12, 2021)

Made a real part on the cnc lathe today. I did the roughing in the lathe  but the threading I simply did manually with a die. It’s a arbor for the small drill chucks I bought. One end is .625” diameter round and the other is 3/8-24 threaded. Spun the chuck onto the arbor and applied loctite. Here are a few pictures.


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## YYCHM (Dec 12, 2021)

What is this thing with all the carbide tooling in it......?


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## Janger (Dec 12, 2021)

If you notice in picture 2 above there is also a threaded hole to take a screw down the throat of the chuck. The instructions said that should be a left hand thread and left hand bolt. I don’t have either so I just used a conventional #6-32 machine screw.  I then used loctite on the threads. Will that hold?


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## Janger (Dec 12, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> What is this thing with all the carbide tooling in it......?


That is the rotary tool holder. Holds 8 tools. It’s motorized and spins each tool into position automatically. I still have to figure out the calibration for it. I can manually spin the tool into a close position and then use a straight edge to dial it in to centre.


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Janger said:


> That is the rotary tool holder. Holds 8 tools. It’s motorized and spins each tool into position automatically. I still have to figure out the calibration for it. I can manually spin the tool into a close position and then use a straight edge to dial it in to centre.



Amazing that such a "quick change" tool holder has enough rigidity to actually work! I would think the cranking gears take one heck of a beating! I'd there a locking lug of some kind?


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## Janger (Dec 13, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Amazing that such a "quick change" tool holder has enough rigidity to actually work! I would think the cranking gears take one heck of a beating! I'd there a locking lug of some kind?


I believe the mechanism is very similar to a rotary table. Worm gear?


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## Susquatch (Dec 13, 2021)

Janger said:


> I believe the mechanism is very similar to a rotary table. Worm gear?



Ya but rotary tables have a lock. Mine has two. To work with a motor drive like that, that thing can't have a lock. All the force will have to be reacted by the gear. I think it's a lot to ask of it.


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## Janger (Dec 20, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Same as the Haas then I have to change the feed rate from 650 to 400 for the program to work using fusion 360.


There is another fix for that @Tom O. In the setup for the haas post checkmark G0 for rapids. below... But perhaps that is only available if you subscribe?


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## Janger (Dec 20, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Ya but rotary tables have a lock. Mine has two. To work with a motor drive like that, that thing can't have a lock. All the force will have to be reacted by the gear. I think it's a lot to ask of it.



Hmm. As a counter example it's reasonable to turn the handle on a RT while milling. It must be a pretty fine gear as it is 40 turns of the motor to move the next tool into position.


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## Janger (Dec 20, 2021)

Videos....
Pardon the shaky camera. Tool changer.




 



 



Speeds and feeds. It is aluminium. 900 RPM. diameter about 5/8". DOC 0.010" on the diameter. Feed is 0.001" per rev.
The part is the arbor to hold a drill chuck in the 90 degree tool holder you can see in the tool changer video at the top. It needs to be threaded 3/8-24 on the small diameter section. I also need a tapped hole in the end I think #8. Post #28 shows more pictures.


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## Alexander (Dec 20, 2021)

This is some good work John! Also I totally agree any machine moves outside the part should be G0 @Tom O. the main reason is while proving out the program you can keep the feed rate at 100% and turn the rapid way down. This helps on the first run through a part. Depending on how your machine is set up it may actually last longer if you use rapid. Most controllers have different breaking and resolution on a rapid move than a feed move. The Mazak I run actually has sliders to adjust accuracy, breaking acceleration and resolution.


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## Tom O (Dec 21, 2021)

Good to know I’ll try the G0.


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## Janger (Jan 2, 2022)

Well folks I need some help. Kevin suggested shouting out to @RobinHood Rudy @johnnielsen @Dabbler the John's and anyone else who knows this stuff.

I was finding I can't spin the little lathe faster than 2100RPM now without blowing a breaker. While I was trying to diagnose this as an electrical problem I discovered that I don't think it is - I think it's a lubrication problem. Why do I think that? Well...I was running the lathe at a lower speed like 1800 rpm for a long time 20-30 minutes. Then suddenly I smelled something rubbery stinky, the lathe slowed way down and the current I was measuring went way up. I caught a max current on another attempt of 23A - that will trip the 15A breaker - picture 3! I hit emergency stop and noticed the headstock was quite warm AND the spindle was suddenly hard to turn. I took the belt off and the spindle was still hard to turn. Then I was looking at the oil sight glass. I thought it was ok (see below pic 5) but I grabbed some 32 oil and poured it in trying to get the level up. I then turned the spindle and amazing it spun like glass easier than it ever has. Then the next trouble started all the oil I put in started leaking out all over at both ends of the spindle. I couldn't get the sight glass fuller than just above the markers at 3 and 9 o'clock. Picture 5 below shows the sight glass. Is that too low? what is full? Is it at the top or the middle ok? That's my first question.

The second question is the leaking oil. Picture 2 shows the bearing (Timken 11162). Fitting over the bearing is the cover - aluminium - which has a close machined fit on the outer most lip to the flange outside edge. Picture 4 shows the cover. I expected to find a gasket but no. The cover and the flange have some hard black guck stuck on which might be gasket glue mostly removed? Would that be how the oil seal is made? Anyway both bearing covers leak. How would these covers be sealed? That's question 2.

Question 3 everybody is the spindle body is mated (by friction?) to the bearing inner housing and I don't know how to take it apart. I tried gently tapping on it with a dead blow and it's in there pretty good. I wanted to take it out because there is no access to the second bearing cover as seen in picture 1. How should the spindle be removed from the bearing? I've never done anything like this so I didn't feel comfortable whacking it hard. Is taking it apart a bad idea? How do I reassemble it? There is a big nut that goes on to the spindle on the threaded section just sticking out past the bearing. Picture 2. Would tightening that up pull the spindle back into the bearing properly? How tight?

Thanks!

Thoughts?


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## Dabbler (Jan 2, 2022)

Oh my.  Here's where your surface plate comes in.  Time to measure the crap out of everything.  Timken bearings can exhibit this kind of binding behaviour when something gets out of alignment...  it doesn't take much, a tenth or 2 will do it.  The usual culpret is an angular misalignment.  Axial misalignment would be the next to check.

regarding the goo.  I suspect you are right.  You'll have to get advice from someone else on this.   I've had 0% luck with gasket goo.
I always fabricate my own seals and use low durometer eurothane foam, as it lasts longest and is most resistant to oil that i know.

question 3 - idunno.


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## Alexander (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't know but it looks like you have two tapered bearings. The preload is probably set by that big nut. As long as you don't have any endplay or side movement I would imagine that big nut is tight enough. It is quite likely I am missing something but I don't see anything I would want to take apart. Have you tried running that motor with the belt off to see if it gets hot with no load?


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## RobinHood (Jan 2, 2022)

From the info you provided, sounds to me the bearings are too tight. As things warm up, the bearings expand hard into their cups and thus friction increases dramatically requiring more power to turn the spindle. Also, they don’t seem to be lubricated sufficiently, thus accelerating the heat build-up.

Oil seals:

Your lathe uses a labyrinth seal. You can see the two oil collector grooves (red arrow) and the return passage (green arrows).





The oil seal ring just needs a thin layer of oil resistant RTV (the black goop you see ((blue arrow)) to seal the ring to the HS. This ring also retains the bearing cup (outer race).
Edit: on closer inspection, it looks like there is a paper seal stuck to the HS. The black goop is probably just seal retainer compound.






Did you remove the oil plug (yellow arrow)? It could be why the oil level will not go above the 3/9 position in the sight glass. The oil level in the HS will never be higher than the lowest point of the labyrinth seal as any excess will just run out between the seal and the spindle. So, in theory, you can not overfill the HS with oil.

Q 3

Yes, you can use the retaining nut to push the bearing cone (inner race) back onto the seat. A suitable tube could also be used to drive the cone back onto the spindle.

If you make a puller using ready rod, you could pull the spindle out the front.

You could try and use a heat gun on the rear bearing to help with removal. I doubt the cone is anything more than a very light press fit onto the spindle; it needs to be able to move relatively freely as it is used to set the pre-load of the system.

What kind of retaining / pre-load system is used on the spindle? Just the nut? In that case it would set the pre-load for the spindle bearings. The manufacturer would specify a preload. They would probably specify it in terms of torque required to turn the spindle in its bearings (without anything connected to it).


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## Dabbler (Jan 3, 2022)

An addendum to our phone call: you can fabricobble a seal out of parchment paper and oil resistant goop, which *might* work better than goop alone.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> From the info you provided, sounds to me the bearings are too tight. As things warm up, the bearings expand hard into their cups and thus friction increases dramatically requiring more power to turn the spindle. Also, they don’t seem to be lubricated sufficiently, thus accelerating the heat build-up.
> 
> Oil seals:
> 
> ...


Thanks Rudy for the clear explanation.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

How to safely remove old RTV and some ideas on what to NOT do. ie any sort of roloc disc is a bad idea. 

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2...MqO46dAcGFvQkooCtacMdcPAcoqehWK7phEwuNPiUjMdE


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Is this the right approach to remove the spindle? I tightened it up a fair bit and nothing. Thought I’d pause for consultation and see.


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

I would use a set-up like that to pull the spindle.


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

Since you got my curiosity going when you mentioned bearing lubrication, heat, etc., I found this on the Timken website:









						The Timken Company – Find a Roller Bearing’s Fatigue Life
					

Using basic and advanced search criteria, including part numbers, you can find the fatigue life of tapered, ball, cylindrical, spherical and thrust bearings.




					www.timken.com
				




One can select different parameters to see what happens to bearing life. One big influence is operating temperature.

Looking for a bearing pre-load value which would be suitable for your installation…


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

I had to make the puller beefier. Nothing like some 4140 scrap. It’s working now.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Since you got my curiosity going when you mentioned bearing lubrication, heat, etc., I found this on the Timken website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was looking around on there for preload too and didn’t see much. Found an article on various ways to set the preload - but what is the value?


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

It seems to be this bearing with 3.18x OD
TRB-TS | 11162 - 11315​


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

I would go with what @Alexander said: eliminate all endplay (after seating them) and go from there. Monitor bearing temps. If they stay cold, make them a bit tighter. I run the bearings around 45C. Takes about 45min to an hour to get there and they stay there all day long afterwards.

SM recommends 0.56 ft-lbs of pre-load on their 1340 with Timken bearings. They are a different design from your Rockford and I found that the bearings run too warm for my liking. So I back them off until I get to the 40C to 50C range. Never measured the resulting torque - bet it is very close to their value though.
Colchester would not give me their pre-load spec. They told me to bring in the machine for service. I thanked them and just set the bearings for 45C.
I’ll be doing the same on the CMT (i just have not got the electrics running so I can’t start testing). Both the Colchester & CMT have auto temp compensating bearing pre-load systems.

Here is the procedure from SM 1120 manual (1340 is identical):


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Apparently I just hit 3000 posted messages. My I'm chatty. 

Anyway Thanks Rudy for posting that info on the preload procedures.

So I got the bearing off. Picture 1. That's good. I was hoping to then be able to slide the entire spindle out so I can easily get at the bearing covers and head stock seal area to clean them up. Well there is another problem. On the spindle inside the head stock there is a geared pulley so the spindle won't come out. That pulley turns a belt connected to the rotary encoder which is the digital equivalent of a thread dial. The encoder is the top left picture two and goes in the lower hole in picture 1. It has a concentric mount to allow the belt to be tightened. This lathe has a lot of fancy details I wish I knew what it cost in the early nineties when it was made.

Side note picture two shows the bearing cover. I cleaned the area circled with acetone and cotton swap. cleaned right up with the acetone. Bottom left is the big nut holding the spindle to the inner bearing race. it has a set screw with a brass pusher to prevent thread damage. Top right is the bearing. More to come next post.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Now how does this pulley come off? Picture 1 is the inside of the head stock looking up at the pulley. You can see the belt hanging there. There is a small hole on the pulley. I've tried putting various hex wrenches it does not seem to be a set screw. Difficult to get a picture. I'm shoving my arm in there and snapping away. Can't see the screen it's too tight. Picture 2 in the blue circle shows what might be a keyway?

I might just leave it as I now have enough clearance to clean the headstock chuck side seal surfaces.


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## Dabbler (Jan 3, 2022)

Looks like a pin in th picture.  But if you don't have to remove it, I'd leave it alone...


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Looks like a pin in th picture.  But if you don't have to remove it, I'd leave it alone...


A pin! That seems strange to me as how would you get it out? If you needed to change the chuck side bearing it would have to come off. How would you remove it? Pull and shear the pin off?


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

Ah so after a call John explained that it's likely a roll pin and you could pound it through and out with the right drift. Looking inside the spindle it does appear to be a through hole. That does not explain the mysterious rectangular keyway like slot though. The pin is at about a right angle to that slot.


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

If it is a roll pin through the timing gear and into one side of the spindle wall, there could be another one on the opposite side. They would be relatively short. All they would do is prevent the gear from moving axially. There for sure is a key way and a key. You can see the key in picture 1. Roll pins are hollow. If you put a light inside the spindle bore, you should see the light in the hole on the gear (assuming the hole is not gummed up). If you see light, it confirms a hollow pin.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

So what should I do to replace the oil seals.? I have this parchment paper I could cut out one and use that along with this ultra gray Pirma Tex gasket maker. Would it be better to use the parchment paper plus the gasket or only the gasket glue? Or something else entirely.? Thanks everybody for your help on my project


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 3, 2022)

I’d probably go with just the gasket glue, very thin.  On old machinery you can go to town on gaskets, but with precision fits it can interfere if too thick in my experience,


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

Is that not a paper gasket still stuck to the HS (blue arrow)? Then you’d only want a thin even layer of the permatex to make it stick (use it more of a gasket ”glue” than a sealing medium).


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

in that picture it does look like paper but it isnt. just guck.


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## RobinHood (Jan 3, 2022)

Roger


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## Janger (Jan 4, 2022)

Price list for the Hercus lathe 22 years ago. Prepare for sticker shock.


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## Janger (Jan 4, 2022)

Last night I put the bearing covers back on with gasket glue. The package said 24 hours to dry. Should I wait longer?


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## RobinHood (Jan 4, 2022)

Any conditions associated with the 24h cure time like temp, humidity, etc?

Question: how is the bearing oil retained if you have a “dry” HS? Is there a reservoir of sorts for each of them and individual sight glasses for observation of the level?


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## Dabbler (Jan 4, 2022)

OMG that's pricey!

congrats on the reassembly - go John!


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## Janger (Jan 4, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Any conditions associated with the 24h cure time like temp, humidity, etc?
> 
> Question: how is the bearing oil retained if you have a “dry” HS? Is there a reservoir of sorts for each of them and individual sight glasses for observation of the level?


The reservoir seems to connect to both sides and there is this little hole the oil comes out and up through the bearing cover - that square slot and into the bearing. So the one sight glass covers the whole thing. That empty hole to the right you pointed out earlier Rudy is the drain cock. I guess it does not take much oil at all.


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## Janger (Jan 4, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> OMG that's pricey!
> 
> congrats on the reassembly - go John!


I was astounded. I certainly didn't spend that much!


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## RobinHood (Jan 4, 2022)

Thanks for the explanation of the oil system @Janger . Make sense to me now.


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## Janger (Jan 5, 2022)

Timken bearing lubricant. What should I use? I found this pretty vague statement on the Timken site yesterday. ISO 32 through 220. That site is full of complex detailed information but specific advice is lacking. I have on hand iso 32 and 220. I'm sure any lubricant would suffice but what should I actually use? The timken site also equally vague on what preload should be used. Loads of technical information on various preload measurement techniques.. but how about an actual number like ft lbs?


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## RobinHood (Jan 5, 2022)

I’d use the ISO 32.

To seat the bearings, I would use a good amount of force (maybe 20-40 ftlbs) while turning the spindle. Back off the nut. Turn the spindle and snug up the nut. Use a pry bar with blocks of wood and an indicator to see if you get any end play (axially) and side play (radially). Adjust the nut to just eliminate play. This will probably leave the bearings a bit loose - that is ok to start with.

Run the lathe and monitor temperature. The bearings should get warm, but not hot. Adjust nut as required to give you the temp you want; about 45*C is what I set my spindle bearings to.

Once you have the bearings running at a steady temp, make some test cuts. If you get chatter (especially while parting), tighten up the pre-load a bit more. At this point you are moving the nut maybe 5* or 10* of arc - basically very little. Monitor and adjust as the bearings are “running in”.


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## DaveK (Jan 5, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> OMG that's pricey!
> 
> congrats on the reassembly - go John!


While still a reasonably pricy lathe, in 2000 the Australian dollar was as low as about $0.50 USD.

Dave


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## kevin.decelles (Jan 5, 2022)

I'd also echo the ISO 32 for the Timken, and if it were plain bearings (babbit) I go with the 220.


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## Janger (Jan 10, 2022)

Lathe running for an hour. 30C. 2500 rpm. I’m pretty happy with that. Thanks for advice and calls John Rudy Kevin.


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## RobinHood (Jan 10, 2022)

That looks very promising.


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## Susquatch (Jan 11, 2022)

Cool use of an IR thermometer @Janger .  

I almost missed it. The forum superimposed text over your photo. But when I clicked on the photo to have a better look I could see your meter. 

Glad you are happy. 

And ya, cool bunch of guys too!


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