# Where to get good used mill



## Susquatch (May 17, 2021)

I had a very old late 1800s 6x48"lathe and a Beaver Drill Press with top and bottom bearings on the quill that I added an x-y table to use as a mill/drill before I retired. 

When I retired from industry, we bought a farm and found myself doing a lot of repairs and fabricating for my neighbours and I. A few years later I bought a relatively new 14x36 lathe and a very old mill. The mill is so old that it has no manufacturers data on it. It's probably an early offshore unit because both spool markings on the table have 110 graduations per turn (yup a royal pain). But on the plus side, it came with a lot of old tooling that I've put to good use over the last decade. It has an mt3 quill and even an aftermarket motorized table feed. But I had to make a new pinion gear for the head lift (the old one was missing a tooth and had to be removed and replaced every time the crank was turned 300 degrees) and it's not very solid and can't handle a heavy load without complaining bitterly. 

So I recently decided that it's time to consider upgrading the mill to something better. I did a google search on the BusyBee mills to check for user problems etc. before I seriously considered a purchase. That's how I found this forum. I immediately joined and this is my very first post. I'm sure there will be many more in the years to come and even more replies to the posts that others make. (insert evil grin here) 

In the post that Google found (which I can't link to because the forum won't let new users use links - sorry about that) the member was wondering about the quality of the busy bee machines and users here were advocating readily available used machines of better quality and lower cost. What is not to love about that!!! 

But that brings me to my question. I've looked in vain for years for good used mills. Where and how does one find these gems? 

Any quick (or comprehensive) recommendations from other members? Any and all advice/help is greatly appreciated.


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## YYCHM (May 17, 2021)

Ontario shouldn't be a problem sourcing a used mill.  Alberta on the other hand is a waste land.

This one is still out there Milling Machine Vertical | Other Business & Industrial | St. Catharines | Kijiji

What size mill are you looking for?

@Brent H can probably link you up and even help you move it LOL


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## Brent H (May 17, 2021)

@YYCHM : there is a bit of a line up - LOL and I am not moving stuff out of basements  - LOL  One and done!

Right now on the search for a few mills - big thing is: If it pops on Kijiji and it looks like a decent deal, you have to go in full purchase and pick it up quick.  Already got a few burns on mills that guys were selling then jacked the price up after they had a few offers. Typically you get the one call or communication and that is it.


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## Susquatch (May 18, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Ontario shouldn't be a problem sourcing a used mill.  Alberta on the other hand is a waste land.
> 
> This one is still out there Milling Machine Vertical | Other Business & Industrial | St. Catharines | Kijiji
> 
> ...



What size is a good question. I can handle a fairly big machine in my shop thick cement floor and 20ft ceiling. But I'm not fond of floor mazes. I was prepared to settle for a small one like the BusyBee 601/611 but much prefer something more solid and rigid. But I'm not really keen on a huge industrial unit. How do you guys usually rate the size? Eg Lathes are typically swing and distance between centers. I've always thought mills were usually rated by bed size. My current Mill is not a big one but it does have a large bed. My typical applications are making fixtures and medium sized parts. Right now I'm making a GPS system for tractor guidance. Aside from the electrical and electronics, the main work is making brackets, antenna posts, housings, and fixtures. My next planned job is to repair the shear bolt mount on a ripper blade (1-1/2 plate about 40" long and 16" wide at the top). The existing hole is badly damaged. It just needs a bigger hole bored in it to regain the proper center location and then bushed to take the right size shear bolt. 

The one in the photo you sent seems bigger than I wanted and in really rough condition. It's also 550v which I don't currently have. I could get or make a converter, but don't really want to. I have 60A 220 available. Frankly, anybody who puts a big lathe steady rest on the floor like that isn't looking after their equipment. Gotta wonder why it's still for sale. 

But I get the idea. 

Thank you.


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## Susquatch (May 18, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @YYCHM : there is a bit of a line up - LOL and I am not moving stuff out of basements  - LOL  One and done!
> 
> Right now on the search for a few mills - big thing is: If it pops on Kijiji and it looks like a decent deal, you have to go in full purchase and pick it up quick.  Already got a few burns on mills that guys were selling then jacked the price up after they had a few offers. Typically you get the one call or communication and that is it.



I'm not moving any thing out of a basement either. I did that with my first lathe. I won't do it again. But, I do have a 24' flatbed and a 2500 truck to tow it. I'd prolly have to rent something to get a big mill onto my trailer, but I have a loader tractor and an overhead crane on my end that can both handle 2 tons. 

So basically, Watch Kijiji, don't try and haggle, and snap up the first good one? 

Wish they had auctions for such things. I love farm auctions but they are not auctioning off mills. 

Although everybody loves a great deal, I'd be prepared to buy a good refurbished one from someone with a good reputation. The only downside from my perspective is that an individual sale might come with some decent tooling.


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## Dabbler (May 18, 2021)

Susquatch, I think that more than one strategy played all at once gives you the best chances.  I'd keep posting on forums like this, checking Kijiji, auctions, going to used machinery dealers, going to friendly shops, etc.  

This works if you want the best fit at the best price.  It will probably find you a surprise machine that happens to fit your needs.  

However I have the view that one should 'get one you can use below budget'  while looking for the 'my perfect machine' and then sell the starter machine.  This is not $ optimal. --but-- it gets you making chips during the perhaps 2 or 3 year wait for the perfect machine.  You can think of it as machine rental during the search time, if you lose money at all.  On all my sold machines, I've either broken even or lost a marginal amount.  After all, I'm not in this for a living.  I don't look to make a profit, but rather minimize my hassle.


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## Brent H (May 18, 2021)

@Susquatch : keep an eye on kijiji and see what is available - here is some advice based on what I know about mills and using them at home:

1.  Voltage:  Industrial mills come mostly in at 575 V 3 phase as it was a popular voltage in early years.  This will make VFD use expensive and not necessarily worth it.  You can also use a phase converter/MG set up and that may work fine - it will add to the cost.  Mills with 440/240 can be VFD driven and that can save additional funds
2.  If you find a 575 Volt mill that is speed adjusted through pullies - this type is easier to change out the motor to either single phase or 3 phase 220 Volt and then control speed with a VFD.  A variable speed mill with a shot motor can be expensive as the motor is "special" with an extended shaft and not easy to locate at a cheap price.  The machine can be converted but is a bit more intense due to the way the drive is operated/fitted.
3. If you have (and you do) the ability to load/off load - pick up the mill you have a great advantage over other Kijiji shoppers.  Many places will load it or have a means to load it if you are ready and set to take it.
4.  Bridge port type mills have lots and lots of parts available so some slop or say excessive backlash may not be a big deal as you can replace parts at typically reasonable money ( I changed out my x and y axis nuts and spindles for about $500 and the mill is like new.  A couple other items for 30 - $50 and no complaints)  Biggest deal breaker would be a badly mangled table or the mill is worn beyond reasonable repair - spindle run out, gibs are shot, ways are worn to the point that you are over the tolerable level of precision you need for your hobby.  I looked at one and you could pull the table side to side about 2 inches and the gib was tight - I passed
5. Collets: R8 is typical, easiest to find, cheapest.  5C or Morse Taper are out there and can be found and supported.  Brown and Sharp - not so popular and very hard to find.  The larger mills with NMTB, ISO, CAT, BT 30, 40, 50 etc are all supported still - collet or collet holders are more costly due to the size.
If you can get a date with a seller and look over the machine - perfect, bring the gear to haul it away if you like it as it will probably not be there for a second look - sad but true.

Some other guys can add to the list..........


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## Canadium (May 18, 2021)

Sometimes you can find a mill by accident while looking at other stuff. Last week I found some small machinist stuff on Kijiji. When I went to pick it up I found it was a machinist shop where they had to move or potentially even go out of business. He had about 4 milling machines in his shop. When I expressed interest in the machines he offered to sell me one for a very reasonable price even though they were not advertised. If I'd had the money I would have bought it! There's lots of older manual milling machines on the market in Ontario. Kijiji and Facebook's Marketplace are the best places to look that I know of.


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## YotaBota (May 18, 2021)

When I bought my mill the ad had been up for about 10 minutes, I was the first caller and showed up with my truck and cash and brought it home.


Canadium said:


> He had about 4 milling machines in his shop


Sounds like it could be an opportunity for a local member to acquire a mill.


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## Tom Kitta (May 18, 2021)

In ON there should not be an issue to get quality machine for a low price within few months of looking. Since you already have a mill there is no need for a quick buy. 

You absolutely need to decide on size and set a plus or minus sizing. It would help to know what you have right now that is very old / too small. 

BP clone shown is not a big machine. Generally in the 2000-2500 lbs range. You can easily find them on ON in 240v 3ph. 

You need to decide on machine shape. And realistic budget. 

Then hit Kajiji, FB, local auctions, some dealers. 

You should have new to you mill in like ... 3 months or less.


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## Susquatch (May 18, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> Susquatch, I think that more than one strategy played all at once gives you the best chances.  I'd keep posting on forums like this, checking Kijiji, auctions, going to used machinery dealers, going to friendly shops, etc.
> 
> This works if you want the best fit at the best price.  It will probably find you a surprise machine that happens to fit your needs.
> 
> However I have the view that one should 'get one you can use below budget'  while looking for the 'my perfect machine' and then sell the starter machine.  This is not $ optimal. --but-- it gets you making chips during the perhaps 2 or 3 year wait for the perfect machine.  You can think of it as machine rental during the search time, if you lose money at all.  On all my sold machines, I've either broken even or lost a marginal amount.  After all, I'm not in this for a living.  I don't look to make a profit, but rather minimize my hassle.



OK, I get the idea. It really isn't as some as choosing one from a multitude of choices. 

FWIW, I already have my 2nd starter mill. It's not a great machine, but it works for most of what I need to do if I baby it and am not concerned about precision. It has an mt3 quill and I have lots of tooling for it so my preference would be to get another mt3 unit. But I've also been thinking about getting an r8 machine and using an r8 to mt3 adapter. 

I also have a c5 chuck and a full set of collets for my lathe and I love that so it's an option too. 

You are absolutely right about patience. It's too bad I don't have much....... (insert big sigh here)


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## Susquatch (May 18, 2021)

Canadium said:


> Sometimes you can find a mill by accident while looking at other stuff. Last week I found some small machinist stuff on Kijiji. When I went to pick it up I found it was a machinist shop where they had to move or potentially even go out of business. He had about 4 milling machines in his shop. When I expressed interest in the machines he offered to sell me one for a very reasonable price even though they were not advertised. If I'd had the money I would have bought it! There's lots of older manual milling machines on the market in Ontario. Kijiji and Facebook's Marketplace are the best places to look that I know of.



Wish I was there with you.....


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## Susquatch (May 18, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> In ON there should not be an issue to get quality machine for a low price within few months of looking. Since you already have a mill there is no need for a quick buy.
> 
> You absolutely need to decide on size and set a plus or minus sizing. It would help to know what you have right now that is very old / too small.
> 
> ...



It's a plan. 

I'll post pictures of my machine after I get back out to the shop. I badly sprained my ankle doing a plow repair and haven't done much myself besides age and collect dust.


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## Tom Kitta (May 18, 2021)

I just got a RF-30 clone with MT3 taper spindle I am planning on moving to CNC. I wonder whatever you have that type of a mill already. MT3 taper in a mill is rare in Canada / US - most of stuff here is R8 or bigger NMTB 40. MT3 for a mill is more of European thing. Just avoid some exotic tapers that are US specific unless the machine comes with plenty of tooling - like B & S taper - tooling is difficult to find.


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## Dabbler (May 18, 2021)

I started with a B048 Busy Bee mill, new.  It was an older model with 8 X 32 table and power feed in X it looked like this:






It was a great machine, but I wanted DRO, and I wanted a moveable ram like a real Bridgeport mill.  So I found a great deal on a 9 X 49 BP clone with a DRO installed, in Vancouver.  So I shipped it here and started using it.  _Only then_ did I find the machine I was looking for, a Modern PM945VS for even a better deal, so I bought that as well.

So the deals do come along if you are ready to pounce.


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## Susquatch (May 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> It's a plan.
> 
> I'll post pictures of my machine after I get back out to the shop. I badly sprained my ankle doing a plow repair and haven't done much myself besides age and collect dust.



I finally managed to hobble out to my shop to take some photos of my zero cost "rental" as Dabbler calls them. 

The bed is 8.5x36 with lots and lots of slop in the lead screws but not horrible on the gibbs. Unfortunately only 16" of travel. 

The Quill only has 4" of travel. 

Lots to hate about it, but it does work as long as you are patient and don't push it. The most hateful feature of all is the 10 & 0 on the cranks. I'm used to binary, octal, decimal, and even hex. But what the heck is base 11 ??? In my humble opinion, it's totally completely useless. 

Love to know what it is and who made it if anybody knows. 

In the meantime, it's my free rental till I find my forever mill.


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## Susquatch (May 19, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> I just got a RF-30 clone with MT3 taper spindle I am planning on moving to CNC. I wonder whatever you have that type of a mill already. MT3 taper in a mill is rare in Canada / US - most of stuff here is R8 or bigger NMTB 40. MT3 for a mill is more of European thing. Just avoid some exotic tapers that are US specific unless the machine comes with plenty of tooling - like B & S taper - tooling is difficult to find.



Yup, it's MT3. I like that because the tailstock on my lathe is MT3 too. It's amazing what a difference that makes for my tooling. 

But it's a weird duck. I doubt the Europeans would ever make cranks with a number base of 11. See the photos I posted a few minutes ago. I expect it was imported by aliens around the same time they started infiltrating Ottawa......


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## Susquatch (May 19, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I started with a B048 Busy Bee mill, new.  It was an older model with 8 X 32 table and power feed in X it looked like this:
> 
> View attachment 14822
> 
> ...



To be honest, I'd be thrilled to have your first machine as my last!

I accept that I need more patience. It was silly to have thought about getting a busy bee 601/611.

As per the recommendations of you and others here, I have already created searches for mills on Facebook and Kijiji. I decided to search on "milling machine" and "metal mill" because "mill" got WAY too many hits.


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## YYCHM (May 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I decided to search on "milling machine" and "metal mill" because "mill" got WAY too many hits.



Yup.... as in pepper mill and tread mill etc etc LOL.


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## Tom Kitta (May 19, 2021)

The table is very similar to RF30. Same as main casting of the bottom part. The top obviously is not RF30. I wonder whatever the mill head is from the same machine or different machine. Or maybe you have some limited edition of a machine


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> It's probably an early offshore unit because both spool markings on the table have 110 graduations per turn (yup a royal pain)



I have heard about these oddball dials before - especially on older off shore machines.

Here is my best guess as to how they arrive at 110 divisions: the lead screw they used is likely metric. Something like a TR40x14(P7)LH. What that means is the nominal OD of the trapezoidal thread is 40mm. (Probably not that big of an OD, but you get the idea). It has a lead of 14mm per revolution, with a thread pitch of 7mm. That means it is a two start screw (14/7=2).

How does that give us 110 divisions on the dial? Well, 14mm is about 13.97mm. 13.97mm = 0.55” per turn. 0.55” / 110 = 0.005” for each division —> as is stamped on your dial. Hence the odd ball number of graduations.


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## Brent H (May 19, 2021)

@Susquatch : https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...p_ios&utm_medium=social&utm_source=ios_social
$2750 - no views yet except me


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## Dabbler (May 20, 2021)

THait is a great machine in good condition..  The motor swap will cost about 400$ but it is worth it -UNLESS there is a hidden serious defect.


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> The table is very similar to RF30. Same as main casting of the bottom part. The top obviously is not RF30. I wonder whatever the mill head is from the same machine or different machine. Or maybe you have some limited edition of a machine



I do not know, nor even an inkling. The gray paint on all the parts is thick and multi-layered - been there a long time. 

Although the bed might look similar, there is those base-11 crank handles. Hard to imagine those being done as part of any upgrade or refurbishment. I believe they are original. 

However, I am almost certain that the original motor has been swapped out to a 2 speed 110V motor. The adapter plates do not look remotely OEM and the switches and wiring all look residential.


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...p_ios&utm_medium=social&utm_source=ios_social
> $2750 - no views yet except me



Windsor is only an hour from me. 

I have seen and like First Mills. But the timing sucks. Unfortunately, I have a badly sprained ankle and grandkids coming over tomorrow. So I sent him a note to see if he would take a deposit to hold it for me till Monday assuming he would vouch for the condition, wear, bearings, ways, and slop.....

I didn't try to haggle.


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> I have heard about these oddball dials before - especially on older off shore machines.
> 
> Here is my best guess as to how they arrive at 110 divisions: the lead screw they used is likely metric. Something like a TR40x14(P7)LH. What that means is the nominal OD of the trapezoidal thread is 40mm. (Probably not that big of an OD, but you get the idea). It has a lead of 14mm per revolution, with a thread pitch of 7mm. That means it is a two start screw (14/7=2).
> 
> How does that give us 110 divisions on the dial? Well, 14mm is about 13.97mm. 13.97mm = 0.55” per turn. 0.55” / 110 = 0.005” for each division —> as is stamped on your dial. Hence the odd ball number of graduations.



This is great info! Best of all, it makes sense!

Why the idiots would have done that though is beyond me! Who can't convert between metric and SAE these days?  They should have just left it alone. 

As I indicated earlier, I believe it was built that way at the factory. 

I will take a much closer look at it, armed with your info, and see what it takes to convert it back to metric. With some luck, it might be as simple as turning down the back half of the graduation drums to remove the existing marks and then remarking it properly. Wouldn't that be wonderful! It would make the machine more useful to me for as long as I have it and easier to sell too!

Thank you!


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## YYCHM (May 20, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Wouldn't that be wonderful! It would make the machine more useful to me for as long as I have it and easier to sell too!



A DRO would resolve your issues.  Never have use the dials again and switchable between Imperial and Metric.


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## Brent H (May 20, 2021)

@Susquatch : hopefully the seller is a good dude and you are good to go.  The first mills are near copies of Bridgeport’s as you can get so parts should be interchangeable for the most part.

Good Luck and hope that ankle gets better quick so you can chase around those kids!!


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## Dabbler (May 20, 2021)

My 'First' mill is a bridgeport in almost every aspect, except their castings are much thicker, and the base is wider by 3" all around


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> THait is a great machine in good condition..  The motor swap will cost about 400$ but it is worth it -UNLESS there is a hidden serious defect.



In my mind, play in the Gibbs, slop in the frequently used section, Quill bearing play, rough or badly worn gear play, and broken parts are the main concerns to look for. 

But I've never used (let alone owned) a mill this size. Is there anything else I should be looking for before I buy?


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : hopefully the seller is a good dude and you are good to go.  The first mills are near copies of Bridgeport’s as you can get so parts should be interchangeable for the most part.
> 
> Good Luck and hope that ankle gets better quick so you can chase around those kids!!




He has not committed to a deposit nor turned it down, and he hasn't attested to its condition yet either. But he did say that he was available so I could look at it any night after 5 next week. I have no idea how to read that. 

I guess we will see next week unless it's gone before then.


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## Susquatch (May 20, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> A DRO would resolve your issues.  Never have use the dials again and switchable between Imperial or Metric.



I've looked at getting a pair of DROs but it just didn't make sense to throw that kind of money at a mill that I'm not happy with in other ways. It just seems wiser to buy a better mill and add DROs to it if it doesn't have them already. 

Maybe I'm not looking at it properly, but that's been my thinking to this point.


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## Dabbler (May 20, 2021)

I'd go out of my way to try it out before a committed adversary buys it out from you.  If you don't like it, no harm done.  Key things to check:  flaking on all of the ways ESP the Y ways/  Backlash in X and Y.  Have him show you the power downfeed works.  Check for slop in the spindle bearings.  Take out the drawbar and see if it is badly galled/damaged/stretched in the threads.

Listen to the spindle turning under power at about 600-800RPM.  ther shouldn't be much noise - no clunking or bearing rattle

[edit] and backlash on the X axis (and Y but that's usually okay)  70 thou and greater is trouble - not a red flag, but it would affect the price
that's about it.


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## Brent H (May 20, 2021)

@Susquatch : I would read that if the guy is available any night after 5 next week then set an appointment to see him Monday at 5:05 or his earliest best convenience.  if you are first to see it live you can be the first for anything after that.....


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## Susquatch (May 21, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> ......... How does that give us 110 divisions on the dial? Well, 14mm is about 13.97mm. 13.97mm = 0.55” per turn. 0.55” / 110 = 0.005” for each division —> as is stamped on your dial. Hence the odd ball number of graduations.



In the process of thinking about converting my mill back to metric, I arrived at another (probably dumb) question. 

Why would one turn of the crank be designed to be 14mm? That almost seems as weird as 55 thou. Wouldn't it have been better to design it to be 10mm, or perhaps even 20mm?  It just seems totally silly to have to use a calculator to determine how many turns it takes to get to some target dimension. It also makes fast cranking totally impractical.


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## Susquatch (May 21, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I'd go out of my way to try it out before a committed adversary buys it out from you.  If you don't like it, no harm done.  Key things to check:  flaking on all of the ways ESP the Y ways/  Backlash in X and Y.  Have him show you the power downfeed works.  Check for slop in the spindle bearings.  Take out the drawbar and see if it is badly galled/damaged/stretched in the threads.
> 
> Listen to the spindle turning under power at about 600-800RPM.  ther shouldn't be much noise - no clunking or bearing rattle
> 
> ...



All excellent advice and much appreciated.

One question though..... 70 thou backlash seems like a very high level of backlash to me. If one turn is 100 thou, 70 would be more than the thickness of a tooth on the lead screw. Did you perhaps mean to say 7.0 thou?


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## Brent H (May 21, 2021)

@Susquatch : he would be meaning 0.070" - one thing with the mills is that some backlash can be adjusted out with the lead screw nuts.  if the mill is in decent shape you can adjust this down to say 0.010" to 0.015" and the screws will be only slightly tighten as you get out to the end of travel and will slightly loosen as you move the mill through the middle zone.  A new mill adjustment is typically 0.005" backlash so 15 to 25 thou is not crazy bad in the higher worked zones.  It all depends on what your plans are.......


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## Susquatch (May 21, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : he would be meaning 0.070" - one thing with the mills is that some backlash can be adjusted out with the lead screw nuts.  if the mill is in decent shape you can adjust this down to say 0.010" to 0.015" and the screws will be only slightly tighten as you get out to the end of travel and will slightly loosen as you move the mill through the middle zone.  A new mill adjustment is typically 0.005" backlash so 15 to 25 thou is not crazy bad in the higher worked zones.  It all depends on what your plans are.......



Your latter numbers make sense to me.  005 sounds about right for a new machine tweaked to the 9s.  15 to 25 also sounds possible.  Even 25 makes some sense for a heavily used machine. And I get how the nut can be split and adjusted to reduce backlash.

But I can't see how you get to 70 thou. Of course, I assume that a typical lead screw has a 10 tpi single thread pitch. So the tooth thickness is about 50 thou. To get to 70 the entire tooth would have to be gone.  Of course, that assumes that a typical bed crank has 100 thou per turn - which may or may not be true.  If one turn was 200 thou, then 70 is possible but still wow..... 

Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter. I will see what the graduations are when I get there and look at it. I can always do a calculation of reasonable freeplay and wear then.


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## Dabbler (May 21, 2021)

@Susquatch  Unless it has ball lead screws, expect even .010 from the factory.  In a well built machine the primary wear will be on the bronze nut, all things considered.  Even lightly used machines will have up to .020 backlash.  Once the backlash gets to .050 or .055, the nut is worn to a sharp point, and wear will increase dramatically.  

None of this is a deal breaker - you can buy a new nut from  HW machine repair for a couple hundred, or you can make your own.  If I run into an old machine that has .005 backlash, then I know that the seller is savvy, and has adjusted the play out of the lead screw.  This only happens for a machine where the nut is completely worn out, and it makes you suspect  other things he has hidden.  it lowers the price a lot, just for the trouble and risk.

If the spindle turns without excessive noise, all lead screws work, and the speed changes smoothly (in a variable speed version) - then the machine is workable, ans the rest is just about price.  For a really worn out lead screw, I'd spend perhaps 2K on a large mill, because of the work needed to return it to my standard.  You see if the lead screw is worn, it talks to significant hours and/or poor lubrication practices.  I expect some of the flaking to be worn through.  That's not much of a biggie, because hobby hours are low, and it makes it undesirable for professional use.  It also lowers the final bid price.

This all goes to "what is it worth to you"...  if you are desperate, or if you have a mill already, that also influences your offer.If I could find a Mikron VF2 in good condition, with affordable transportation (nearby or at a good port of lading) I would be happy to sell ALL my mills to buy it.  But that's just me.  I know how solid and versatile, accurate and convenient these mills are.  But that's just me.


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## Susquatch (May 21, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @Susquatch  Unless it has ball lead screws, expect even .010 from the factory.  In a well built machine the primary wear will be on the bronze nut, all things considered.  Even lightly used machines will have up to .020 backlash.  Once the backlash gets to .050 or .055, the nut is worn to a sharp point, and wear will increase dramatically.
> 
> None of this is a deal breaker.....
> 
> ....... If I could find a Mikron VF2 in good condition, with affordable transportation (nearby or at a good port of lading) I would be happy to sell ALL my mills to buy it.  But that's just me.  I know how solid and versatile, accurate and convenient these mills are.  But that's just me.



Thanks for that very thorough explanation. Although I still feel a bit like a 16 Yr old babe in a forest full of wolves, I also feel much better armed to find something decent. Either way, my ripe old age should give me patience - provided I keep reminding myself of that.


----------



## Susquatch (May 22, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> I have heard about these oddball dials before - especially on older off shore machines.
> 
> Here is my best guess as to how they arrive at 110 divisions: the lead screw they used is likely metric. Something like a TR40x14(P7)LH. What that means is the nominal OD of the trapezoidal thread is 40mm. (Probably not that big of an OD, but you get the idea). It has a lead of 14mm per revolution, with a thread pitch of 7mm. That means it is a two start screw (14/7=2).
> 
> How does that give us 110 divisions on the dial? Well, 14mm is about 13.97mm. 13.97mm = 0.55” per turn. 0.55” / 110 = 0.005” for each division —> as is stamped on your dial. Hence the odd ball number of graduations.



I managed to hobble out to the shop this afternoon on my sprained ankle. My plan was to try and measure the lead screw pitch on the x & y axis so I could make a proper metric scale for it. I had no idea what kind of surprise laid in wait for me.

I discovered that it's actually an SAE 10tpi screw! Ten full turns equals 1 inch on both axis

That will make the job a lot easier. All I need is new SAE dials or at least new scales. I doubt they are hard to find but if so, I can always make new ones or even simply turn down and remark the existing ones. SAE dials will also probably increase the sale value a bit.

In fact, maybe I'll even try to make or fit some friction scales so I can set zero. 

I confess that I am more than a bit embarrassed to have to admit to you guys that I never looked at this before. I did some quick measurements when I first got it, and then abandoned all use of the dials or counting turns because it was so whacky. I just used it by marking and measuring parts and didn't use the dials for anything at all. If I had known then that it was actually a 10 tpi screw, I would have fixed the scales many years ago.

But now I am more curious than ever about how it got those 11 graduation dials! What a weird mystery.......


----------



## Brent H (May 23, 2021)

@Susquatch : those dials are from a machine custom built for a member of the Rock Band "Spinal Tap"....Most dials go to 10 but "Spinal Tap" dials: they go to 11...ya mate....11  ...hahahahaha


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## Susquatch (May 24, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : those dials are from a machine custom built for a member of the Rock Band "Spinal Tap"....Most dials go to 10 but "Spinal Tap" dials: they go to 11...ya mate....11  ...hahahahaha





KolinFous said:


> I think this is a limited edition



It is such a quandary. My brain hurts. Except for the 005 marking on the inside, the opposing marks look so totally oem. Yet, so out of place.

It's reminiscent of the common counting mistake that so many people make by counting edges instead of the spaces between them. For 10 spaces (increments) you have 11 edges. The zero edge is the first edge, the first space is a 1, and there is no zero space.

Then there is the issue of number bases. Most of us think we live in a mostly decimal world. But in reality, we live in a mostly binary world. To help address orders of magnitude and reduce paper, some of us learned to use octal, decimal, and hexadecimal. But 11? Where in heck did that come from. The Kings foot was 12 inches. Maybe his brothers foot was 11......

Part of me wants to think it's just a huge mistake that somehow made it into production and onto the shipping truck before anybody could stop it. I probably paid more for it well used than what they sold it for off the truck!


----------



## YYCHM (May 25, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/...p_ios&utm_medium=social&utm_source=ios_social
> $2750 - no views yet except me



*No Longer Available - first milling machine $2,750.00*


----------



## Susquatch (May 25, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> *No Longer Available - first milling machine $2,750.00*



Yup, I know. I decided against it for a variety of reasons. 

Pretty much went as you guys said it would.


----------



## Tom Kitta (May 25, 2021)

Even badly worn out screws == big deal. Measure the screw length, go to eBay or Aliexpress and buy a new screw for like 200, max 300 CAD with a brand new nut. Main problem will be that it may not match your dials... not a big deal, China sells BP clone metric dials for around 20 a peace. I am talking about grade7 ball screws. For like 30 CAD extra you can get 2nd ball nut and bring backlash in your repaired machine to around 1 thou. That is WAY better then factory. 

With rolled balls screws cheap these days, why would anyone bother with ACME as much - I guess main problem could be ball screws do not have a lot of friction... but you can just tighten the ways. 

For under 3000 a working machine was a good deal. Unless it shows clear abuse - like table used as an anvil. Or holes made as gun range target. 

Also why such a big worry about backlash - in manual machine this is standard - I only worry about it on a lathe when parting - you do not want it too loose.


----------



## YYCHM (May 25, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Yup, I know. I decided against it for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Pretty much went as you guys said it would.



Did you go have a look at it?


----------



## Susquatch (May 26, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Did you go have a look at it?



Not really. I could see that the bed was chewed up and the guy wasn't forthcoming with info. It gave me a bad feeling. In any event, my real reason for bailing was my wife. She has always wanted an industrial sewing machine to do upholstry, leather, and heavy canvass. She found one so I gave up my cash. She is a dream come true that any fellow half my age would grab in a heart beat. It was an easy choice. Life has many turns and things usually happen for reasons.

I'll keep looking and in the meantime I'll fix up and use my existing machine. That will make it more usable and also easier to sell.

It's quite the story. See my next post......


----------



## YYCHM (May 26, 2021)

Wise decision....


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## Susquatch (May 26, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> Even badly worn out screws == big deal. Measure the screw length, go to eBay or Aliexpress and buy a new screw for like 200, max 300 CAD with a brand new nut. Main problem will be that it may not match your dials... not a big deal, China sells BP clone metric dials for around 20 a peace. I am talking about grade7 ball screws. For like 30 CAD extra you can get 2nd ball nut and bring backlash in your repaired machine to around 1 thou. That is WAY better then factory.
> 
> With rolled balls screws cheap these days, why would anyone bother with ACME as much - I guess main problem could be ball screws do not have a lot of friction... but you can just tighten the ways.
> 
> ...



I'm not really fussed about backlash. I was only observing that 70 thou is more than 1/2 of a 10 tpi thread and therefore unlikely. I'm no expert though. I just can't see how that can happen.

My lathe has excellent backlash but nowhere near zero. And for what it's worth, I find that parting is always a challenge even with low backlash. Maybe I'll master good parting before I die. Lord knows I do a lot of it because I don't have a metal cutting bandsaw. I do what I can the normal way and when that fails, I flip the tool upside down and cut in reverse. This almost always works but can be noisy.

So time to fess up. I measured my screw wrong in an earlier post. (insert red face here) I made the classic mistake of not counting turns properly.

So, it turns out that the 11 is close to correct. My screw is actually a 7/8-9 regular 60 degree V thread.

Maybe it was metric at one time, or maybe not. About all I can guess at this time is that the original screws were worn out or metric and somebody swapped them out for a standard 7/8-9 threaded rod with 60 degree threads.

When I get time, I plan to remove the table completely and figure out what it takes to install ACME 10 tpi lead screws and nuts or even "Grade 7 ball screws and nuts" as per your suggestion (have to figure out what that is all about and if it makes sense for my machine) along with properly calibrated handles.

My appologies to everyone for my goofy error and the wild goose chase.


----------



## Brent H (May 26, 2021)

HEY @Susquatch : https://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-other/windsor-area-on/bridgeport-mill/1568568414?undefined


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## Dabbler (May 26, 2021)

you guys get all the good deals!


----------



## Tom Kitta (May 27, 2021)

Brent H said:


> HEY @Susquatch : https://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-other/windsor-area-on/bridgeport-mill/1568568414?undefined



WOW BP original and not ridden over by a truck for just $2000 CAD.


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## Brent H (May 27, 2021)

I think the mill has sold......


Nope - Still there.....its listed as "Bridgeport Mill" so if you were looking for a milling machine it would not pop up ......might buy someone some time...


----------



## Susquatch (May 27, 2021)

Brent H said:


> I think the mill has sold......
> 
> 
> Nope - Still there.....its listed as "Bridgeport Mill" so if you were looking for a milling machine it would not pop up ......might buy someone some time...



Holy Cow. You guys are sure right about how fast these things go. I never even got a look at it on Kijiji let alone in person. Too busy farming. If I do get the chance I might have to go into debt though.......


----------



## Mcgyver (May 28, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I'm not really fussed about backlash. I was only observing that 70 thou is more than 1/2 of a 10 tpi thread and therefore unlikely. I'm no expert though. I just can't see how that can happen.
> 
> My lathe has excellent backlash but nowhere near zero. And for what it's worth, I find that parting is always a challenge even with low backlash.



yeah, imo how much backlash there is (with in reason, see photo) doesn't effect most operations.  There has to be some in a tradition screw, so if there is some how much there is usually doesn't matter.  e.g. aggreseive climb milling will be problem at 50 tho backlash, as it will at 15.

Lots of backlash will be in an area of high wear.  Where it matters is when you're measuring or transitioning over a long distances that goes from areas with different amounts of backlash- i.e. two holes on the mill 12" apart.  Time to get out the toolmakers buttons.

Having said that, where backlash does really matter is in sizing up a machine.  Excessive backlash is wear, and if there is excessive wear in one part of a machine, dollars to donuts there will be lots of wear through out.


----------



## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> yeah, imo how much backlash there is (with in reason, see photo) doesn't effect most operations. ........ Time to get out the toolmakers buttons.



Nice summary of the wear backlash issue. And what a great photo! Thanks for that. 

So, I am a hobbiest and no pro. So maybe I don't need them or don't even need to care, but you tickled my curiosity nerve. Besides, i love learning new things. What is a tool makers button and how are they used?


----------



## Mcgyver (May 28, 2021)

thanks.....imo being a hobbyist isn't dissadvantage, I'm a hobbyist as well.... only difference is someone told me about toolmakers buttons .  its a ground cylinder of precise dimensions.  Say you need two holes 4" apart and and each tool button is .25 diameter.  drill tap two holes around 4" apart and mount the buttons.  Put a 3.75" gauge block stack between the buttons and tighen them.  Indicate the botton, drill and bore with boring head.  Do that for each button and you now holes 4" apart.  Its pretty much jig borer accuracy with simple equipment.  The shots below are me making holes to perfectly line up with existing dowel pins.  When the DRO isn't good enough .

I apologize for straying, but since you're the OP I'll risk the torpedoes....here's the process.  Making an adapter for a lathe two speed gear box - part of upcoming article in HSM































fits perfectly!


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> thanks.....imo being a hobbyist isn't dissadvantage, I'm a hobbyist as well.... Fits perfectly!



I didn't actually follow all that in detail, but I get the general idea. When measuring is too difficult, make a precision block (or stack of blocks) and use buttons (pins) as precision locations instead. Very cool. Thxs for explaining.


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## Mcgyver (May 28, 2021)

you are welcome.  its a fairly elegant in its simplicity - the buttons are just a way to reference an axis.  That you are using gauge blocks not the feedscrew means its condition or accuracy doesn't matter, .   I was a using a coaxial indicator, it could have improved that slightly with a 10ths DTI, but it proved good enough


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## Mcgyver (May 28, 2021)

If you're looking for a project, there's this cute little fixer-upper in Peterborough


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## Brent H (May 28, 2021)

@Mcgyver : that task light and perhaps the table top could be a nice little project or used for a project.


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## Mcgyver (May 28, 2021)

Brent H said:


> t task light and perhaps the table top could be a nice little project or used for a p



I was chatting with a friend the other day, lamenting accumulation and how to be leaner.  His words of wisdom were, "when you hear yourself start to say 'one day I could such and such with this'....STOP!"


----------



## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Tom Kitta said:


> China sells BP clone metric dials for around 20 a peace. I am talking about grade7 ball screws. For like 30 CAD extra you can get 2nd ball nut and bring backlash in your repaired machine to around 1 thou. That is WAY better then factory.



You got me curious, so I looked up ball lead screws. I assume you mean something like the ones in this photo (which is just an example).






While it does look really cool, I guess I'm not keen on trying it without a lot more knowledge, experience, and guidance. I'd also be afraid of having something grab and blow up in my face with so little friction. I'm used to regular lead screws, don't need or want CNC, am ok with some reasonable freeplay, and for my needs normal friction isn't a problem. Perhaps that will mean I'd be missing out on a really good thing, but I wouldn't know I was missing it. As they say, nobody knows what they don't know. Since I've never done it before, I'll have my hands full just taking it apart and getting / making / modifying the right parts to make my old mill work properly so I can use it till I get a better one and then sell it. 

Would that be a big mistake?


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## YYCHM (May 28, 2021)

I didn't know that's how those things worked


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> I was chatting with a friend the other day, lamenting accumulation and how to be leaner.  His words of wisdom were, "when you hear yourself start to say 'one day I could such and such with this'....STOP!"



I wouldn't listen to your friend if I were you. One day becomes yesterday before you know it. Goals and dreams are important. You never know what you can do till you try. Last but not least, the small things add up so small goals and someday wanna do's matter too.


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> I didn't know that's how those things worked



I didn't even know they existed in this format. Reminds me of the recirculation ball system in an automotive steering gear box.


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> If you're looking for a project, there's this cute little fixer-upper in Peterborough



I'm not really looking for projects. I never ever want to wake up with nothing to do so I have a million projects waiting already. 

What the heck is it anyway? Or maybe I should say, what was it?


----------



## Tomc938 (May 28, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I'm not really looking for projects. I never ever want to wake up with nothing to do so I have a million projects waiting already.
> 
> What the heck is it anyway? Or maybe I should say, what was it?



Horizontal mill?


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## Susquatch (May 28, 2021)

Ya, horizontal mill on an angle..... LOL!


----------



## Chicken lights (May 28, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I wouldn't listen to your friend if I were you. One day becomes yesterday before you know it. Goals and dreams are important. You never know what you can do till you try. Last but not least, the small things add up so small goals and someday wanna do's matter too.


Friend of mine warned me about finishing a dream

we going way off topic here but the gist of it was the dream gives you a reason to get outta bed 

no more dream no more drive


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## Susquatch (May 29, 2021)

Hi All, 

In the process of trying to figure out how to fix the graduation scale on my existing mill, I ran across this device. 

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Graduating_Tool.html#aHK_201215

Here it is in action making the marks on an indexed wheel. 






I'll probably try to find something already marked, but if I can't find such a thing, this would work great by turning down my old cranks to remove the old marks and adding new ones using this or something like it.


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## Susquatch (May 29, 2021)

Question:  What are Hartford machines like compared to Bridgeports? The one I have my eye on looks almost the same as a Bridgeport. I don't know the model. Just wondering if the brand has a decent reputation or not.


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## Mcgyver (May 29, 2021)

Not sure how  I conjured the notion of squashing dreams.  Wouldn't want to do that.  The notion was, already having 8 lifetimes of projects, to avoiding adding piles of crap to the heap the kids will have to clean out....just because a vivid imagination is able to conceive a possible use for every bit rusty iron encountered    And not all dreams are good - not that I'm a hoarder (I hope thats true but my wife would be the better judge.  its all bloody useful stuff I say!), but that scenario might be a dream to the afflicted and a nightmare to everyone else.  

One thing I have experienced is trying to advance on too many workshop dreams and it starts to feel like a burden.  One dream at a time I say.  Or, well, at least try to keep under 500


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## Dabbler (May 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> What are Hartford machines like compared to Bridgeports?




I have a Hartford mill from Bert.   Bert used it lightly for 40 years, and they were very well built in their time.  Made in Taiwan.  Heavier castings than a BP, but interchangeable parts.  I'd say 90% as good as a BP, and much better than machines of Chinese origin (except the top-of-the-line ones.


----------



## Susquatch (May 29, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Not sure how  I conjured the notion of squashing dreams. ........... Or, well, at least try to keep under 500



I guess I (and others here) see what others write through our own eyes. No offense was meant and I hope none was taken. 

My bride and sometimes my kids and my friends are always trying to tell me to throw everything of mine out. "Why do you keep all this junk?" "What the heck do you need this for?" "When are you ever gunna need this?" etc etc.  Well, I don't see it that way at all. Most of my "junk" is expensive raw materials (bar stock, plate stock, sheet metal, thick pipe, fasteners, tubing, connectors, wire, tie wrap, valves, connectors, and lots of pieces of equipment containing that stuff) that I could never afford to buy new. But nobody around here ever complains when I use that stuff to fix their "junk".......

Then there are all the projects.....

An old plow that just needs a little repair before I sell it or give it away or sprayer that needs some repair. 

An invention that needs a little more work or research before I give the idea away to some young guy who needs a good start. (My dumb ideas put a lot of groceries on my family's table over the years.)

A hundred "fun" projects that I do just for the pure enjoyment or the challenge or the education or the dream or even to help someone else find their dream.

Ya, I might wish my shop was a little neater once in a while. But usually I recognize that a neat tidy clean empty shop is someone else's dream, not mine.

As an aside, many years ago I managed the construction and fitup of a fortune 500 office tower. In designing the office space, I learned from Steelcase research that there are two kinds of people: Filers and Pilers. Both are necessary and equally valuable employees. If you try to turn either one into the other you will destroy their productivity and happiness. Instead, give each what they need, get out of their way, and watch them both soar. Pilers need shelves, filers need drawers. Shelves are just as easily hidden as drawers when needed. It was a valuable lesson in life that I never forgot.

When I die, I know that my family will fight over my stuff, or sell it, or drag it to the dump. But I won't know or care what goes where or what they say about it or me when that time comes. I buried my dad, and my wife's dad and a few other guys who were all the same as I am. I love them just as much after I helped clean out their stuff as I did when they helped me collect some of mine. In fact, the memories that were evoked as I cleaned up their stuff were incredible.

If you put me in your will, I'll gladly go to your place with some buddies and happily get rid of anything your family doesn't want to deal with. (Insert huge happy grin here.....)


----------



## Tom O (May 29, 2021)

I hear you my son is on the fence with the vaccine I told him to get it because someone has to pack this sh*t out.


----------



## Mcgyver (May 29, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> . No offense was meant and I hope none was taken.



none whatsoever, just yappin' and poking fun at myself.


----------



## Susquatch (May 31, 2021)

Thread Update:  

Over the weekend, I bought a mill. 

It's a Hartford Model 2S built in 1979. 8 speeds from 80 to 2720. R8 Spindle. In great condition (or at least appears to be). 

I will have to convert it to 220 and get a MT3 to R8 so I can use my existing tooling.

Basically, I'm a VERY HAPPY CAMPER right now. I did a google search on the quality of busy bee mills, found a discussion about that on this forum, poked around a bit to get a feel for what the forum is like, joined based on what I saw, created my very first post and exchanged thoughts with you members about where to look and what to look for, and ended up owning what I hope will be a terrific full blown mill - way beyond the table top machine I had initially resigned myself to. Wow! What an experience! 

I'll create new posts as appropriate about fixing up my old mill-drill to sell and getting the Hartford ready to use because this thread is about where to find one. But I didn't want to end this thread without expressing a huge THANK YOU to all the other members who posted on this thread and helped me find a better machine than I would have found on my own. More importantly, thanks for helping to get me going on a whole new adventure!

THANK YOU ALL! 

And a special Thank You to @Dabbler for giving me the assurances I needed and the courage to actually pull the trigger! 

Here is a photo of my new (to me) toy.


----------



## YotaBota (May 31, 2021)

Ya gotta love that new mill smell, lol
Congrats, that's a nice looking machine.


----------



## Brent H (May 31, 2021)

Way to go!

The pully driven units are the easiest to convert the motors and you can also then drive with a VFD for speed control.  Nice!


----------



## YYCHM (May 31, 2021)

Nice mill...  Where did you find it and how much?


----------



## Mcgyver (May 31, 2021)

Congrats, looks like a nice bit of machine.

On the MT3/R8 thing, you might want to start collecting R8 bits and pieces.  A MT2 will fit inside an R8, but not an MT3 (afaik).   i.e. to mount an MT2 drill in my R8 spindle it fits inside the spindle, where as the adapter for an MT3 R8 holds the drill outside of the spindle.  That creates a log of overhang, uses up daylight etc.

The existing motor is 600V?  I don't know your machine, but on some mills (like my XLO) the motor is not easy to replace - not a standard NEMA frame.  An alternative is a single phase 240-600 transformer (there are or were a few reasonably priced around here on kijiji) then into a 600V VFD might be overall easier/cheaper, depending.


----------



## combustable herbage (May 31, 2021)

Your looks pretty good but I think you missed out on a real opportunity with the one @Mcgyver suggested
No its real nice unit I am sure I saw that one or one very similar on Kijiji. 
Enjoy your new machine.


----------



## Brent H (May 31, 2021)

@Susquatch :

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/oshawa-durham-region/mill-motor/1438948723?undefined   440 volt

This motor says 440 volt - possible rewind from the original 575.  Would be better 240 but might work if you can find a 240 to 440 VFD?  Looks like it needs some TLC


----------



## Dabbler (May 31, 2021)

@mcguyver the motor is dead easy to replace on the Hartford mill.  I have his exact model.  

You buy any C flange mount motor.  Get a 3/16" plate. Transfer the pivot and lock holes to the plate, as well as the motor mount holes.  Bolt everything back together.  The only constraint is that the motor shaft diameter should be the same as the old one to reuse the pulley.

I have a 240v 2HP pancake motor, but it would cost $$ to ship to Ontario.  Probably easier to get a 2HP TEFC 200V 1PH motor locally and mount that.

If you like I can take a photo of my conversion - i set it up so I could put the old 3PH pancake back on it if necessary.


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Nice mill...  Where did you find it and how much?



Hidden away on Kijiji. Just over 3 grand. Looks to be in great condition. Seller says it was owned by a one-man shop. Spindle is quite, only 5 thou on the y axis and an even 10 end to end on the y. Very forthcoming with answers to my questions and very accommodating. 

I suppose it's always possible I'm just being gullible. But if so, it's nice to know @Dabbler has the same mill. Should make any needed repairs or upgrades easier. All in all, I'm very happy.


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Brent H said:


> Way to go!
> 
> The pully driven units are the easiest to convert the motors and you can also then drive with a VFD for speed control.  Nice!



I'll have to decide all that after I get the machine and move it into my shop. That won't be for a few more weeks. It's planting season here right now and getting seed into my dirt is my priority.

But nice to know that there are options.


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Congrats, looks like a nice bit of machine.
> 
> On the MT3/R8 thing, you might want to start collecting R8 bits and pieces.  A MT2 will fit inside an R8, but not an MT3 (afaik).   i.e. to mount an MT2 drill in my R8 spindle it fits inside the spindle, where as the adapter for an MT3 R8 holds the drill outside of the spindle.  That creates a log of overhang, uses up daylight etc.
> 
> The existing motor is 600V?  I don't know your machine, but on some mills (like my XLO) the motor is not easy to replace - not a standard NEMA frame.  An alternative is a single phase 240-600 transformer (there are or were a few reasonably priced around here on kijiji) then into a 600V VFD might be overall easier/cheaper, depending.



Almost all my tooling is MT3. But the mill did come with a few R8 pieces. Not sure just what yet. Hopefully the most popular shanks.

Here is an R8 to MT3 adapter. I assume you mean that the over a length with R8/MT3/Bit all stacked up is the problem. 






Nice to know I have motor options.


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch :
> 
> https://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/oshawa-durham-region/mill-motor/1438948723?undefined   440 volt
> 
> This motor says 440 volt - possible rewind from the original 575.  Would be better 240 but might work if you can find a 240 to 440 VFD?  Looks like it needs some TLC



Holy cow. That's a pretty rough looking outfit!


----------



## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

combustable herbage said:


> Your looks pretty good but I think you missed out on a real opportunity with the one @Mcgyver suggested
> No its real nice unit I am sure I saw that one or one very similar on Kijiji.
> Enjoy your new machine.



Ya, I blew it on that one!!!! 
NNOOTT!





Dabbler said:


> @mcguyver the motor is dead easy to replace on the Hartford mill.  I have his exact model.
> 
> You buy any C flange mount motor.  Get a 3/16" plate. Transfer the pivot and lock holes to the plate, as well as the motor mount holes.  Bolt everything back together.  The only constraint is that the motor shaft diameter should be the same as the old one to reuse the pulley.
> 
> ...



Appreciate any and all help. I can't use the new mill as is. But I don't physically get the mill for a week or two. I have to finish planting first. 

After I get the mill, I'll also have to evaluate it as well as the various conversion options to decide which way to go. 

Right off the top, I think my options are: 
1 Phase/voltage Converter
2 Straight 220V motor swap
3 DC motor
4 VFDrive

All options are on the table within reason. If I'm gunna make changes, I don't mind spending a little extra to get an improvement so I'll probably pass on the straight 220 swap even though it might be the easiest. But we will see. 

I need to get my hands on the machine first.


----------



## Mcgyver (Jun 1, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> Here is an R8 to MT3 adapter. I assume you mean that the over a length with R8/MT3/Bit all stacked up is the problem.
> .



Unless I'm just in lala land (always a possibility) that's an R8 to MT2 adapter.  Do you have MT2 or 3 tooling?  Working from home let goof off and go grab some photos.

This is a an R8 and and MT3 taper - The OD of the MT3 diameters are too great to have an adapter inside the R8 spindle








This is an R8 to MT2 vs R8 to MT3 adapter - using the MT3 the tool is held 2 or 3 inches below the bottom of the spindle.  It will work, but will be far less rigid - that overall will leverage the laterial forces from milling.  its ok for drills as the force axial.  It what you have is mt2 tooling is should work ok.







shot of long one above just to confirm to myself I wasn't losing it







All three, R8, R8/MNT2 and R8/MT3


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## Dabbler (Jun 1, 2021)

I think @Mcgyver is making a very good point.  Getting r8 collets and and r8  shank drill chuck will be best for using the mill.  If you have  a boring head, you only need change your shank, etc...


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## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Unless I'm just in lala land (always a possibility) that's an R8 to MT2 adapter. Do you have MT2 or 3 tooling?





Dabbler said:


> I think @Mcgyver is making a very good point.  Getting r8 collets and and r8  shank drill chuck will be best for using the mill.  If you have  a boring head, you only need change your shank, etc...



It was just a photo off of the internet based on a search for the adapter. It was labelled R8 to MT3, but I'd guess they used the same photo for all three varients. Looking again, it seems most of the outfits do that. They are probably afraid of scaring a guy like me off.... I'm no expert at such things though, so I simply drank the coolaide.

My stuff is definitely MT3 though. My lathe tailstock is MT3  and so is my Mill/Drill. Unfortunately, I deliberately tried to avoid buying anything with adapters. I always preferred a one-piece integrated MT3 shank. I didn't know then what I know now.

The other problem is that I have a fair amount of it. Everything from small and large Fly Cutters, Gear Cutting Hobs, slitting saws, a set of really nice Weldon Hole Saw Shanks (love these things), to assorted size milling bit holders. So I'll prolly get an adapter even if it does limit my working length options.













As you can see, there is a little MT2 stuff, and even some MT1 stuff, but I have adapters to handle that already.

The mill I am getting cones with an R8 drill chuck but I have no idea what kind of quality it is. Too bad though because I have a drop dead gorgeous MT3 chuck (not in the photos) that I got for my lathe.


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## Brent H (Jun 1, 2021)

@Susquatch :  the one issue I have had with the MT adaptor on my mill is that there is no draw bar holding the Morse Taper, only the adaptor.  If you are putting downward pressure on something like a drill, the taper held no problem...but....when I was gear cutting (mostly side load) the taper rotated on like the 30 th tooth and screwed the part I was making.  I machined off the taper and use the cutter holder in an ER collet now.  If your MT3 stuff has a draw bar thread (as it looks like most of it does) you may want to figure a way to engage that?  not sure it is possible?


And yep.....you have a lot of MT3 stuff!


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## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch :  the one issue I have had with the MT adaptor on my mill is that there is no draw bar holding the Morse Taper, only the adaptor.  If you are putting downward pressure on something like a drill, the taper held no problem...but....when I was gear cutting (mostly side load) the taper rotated on like the 30 th tooth and screwed the part I was making.  I machined off the taper and use the cutter holder in an ER collet now.  If your MT3 stuff has a draw bar thread (as it looks like most of it does) you may want to figure a way to engage that?  not sure it is possible?
> 
> 
> And yep.....you have a lot of MT3 stuff!



Yup, I've had that problem too. When possible I either drilled and tapped the Morse Taper to take the draw bar or machined a flat in the taper to take the set screw that is built into the end of the Spindle on my Mill/Drill. It's never failed me. But that will be an issue with an R8 to MT3 adapter. Maybe I could get two R8 adapters and drill the drawbar hole out so I can use a longer drawbar that goes right through the R8/MT3 adapter into whatever MT3 tooling I'm trying to hold.  ????


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## Dabbler (Jun 1, 2021)

I have a separate R8 drill chuck for the mill, and a MT3 for the lathe(s)  all my tailstocks are MT3,  More convenient to have a dedicated drill chuck for the mill anyway.


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## Mcgyver (Jun 1, 2021)

As well as R8, I have some chucks on straight arbors to fit common collets.....laziness, another valuable technique in justifying tool acquisitions.


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## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I have a separate R8 drill chuck for the mill, and a MT3 for the lathe(s)  all my tailstocks are MT3,  More convenient to have a dedicated drill chuck for the mill anyway.



I'll probably end up there too. I guess we will see how good the R8 drill chuck is that comes with the mill. If it sucks, I'll just have to get a better one. Its just that I truly love the MT3 one I have for my lathe. It's a high precision keyless chuck that works awesome.


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## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> As well as R8, I have some chucks on straight arbors to fit common collets.....laziness, another valuable technique in justifying tool acquisitions.



I totally get the value of laziness.... You should see how many BXA tool holders I have....... I got 3 to start, then quickly bought another set of 10, and then yet another set of 10, and I'm pretty close to needing another set! I hate resetting the tool height everytime I change a tool bit. I made a hardwood shelf for the rear splash gaurd on the lathe and I lineup all the tool holders there so they are all readily available according to my needs at the time. Yup, laziness wins again!


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## Hruul (Jun 1, 2021)

Congrats on the new mill!


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## Susquatch (Jun 1, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : ........ I machined off the taper and use the cutter holder in an ER collet now........



Hmmmmm.........  Perhaps I could do something similar with a lot of my MT3 tooling. I have a nice lathe. I suppose I could turn down all the MT3 tapers to some smaller straight shaft to fit a large straight R8 tool holder and incorporate an indexing pin of some kind to hold it in place and stop it from turning.....


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## Susquatch (Jun 4, 2021)

A lady called me about a genuine Bridgeport Series I that I had enquired about a few weeks ago. Apparently, the sale fell through so its still available.

She can't answer my questions so I'm guessing it's an estate sale. She even dropped the price and wants 2 grand now. I'm also guessing I could get it for less than that.

But it's in rough shape. The bed is quite hen-pecked, it looks like they installed some hand made TBolt Tools to adjust the Gibbs on the fly. On the plus side, it's already been converted to 220V.

I'm thinking I might buy it, clean it up, make a few repairs, and flip it. Or if it turns out to be a diamond in the rough, maybe Flip the Hartford. 

Am I crazy?

Ps - we are picking up the Hartford tonight! I can smell it already!


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 4, 2021)

I would have a go at it, if you can get it at a lower price.


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## Brent H (Jun 4, 2021)

@Susquatch :  If you can get it for cheap, have a go at it - the table is a bit pecked in the middle but doesn't have chunks missing.  If it is all around flat it is not a huge issue as there are ways to repair deeper gouges with plugs and scrapping etc- that T handle is for the x axis lock - not original but you can get aftermarket pretty cheap.  the axis locks basically push in on the gibbs


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## Susquatch (Jun 4, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch :  If you can get it for cheap, have a go at it - the table is a bit pecked in the middle but doesn't have chunks missing.  If it is all around flat it is not a huge issue as there are ways to repair deeper gouges with plugs and scrapping etc- that T handle is for the x axis lock - not original but you can get aftermarket pretty cheap.  the axis locks basically push in on the gibbs



Good info on the Gibb Lock. 

Not sure I feel up to doing any major bed repairs. I'd be inclined to just leave it as is or do a little low temp filling and then take it to someplace with a big surface Grinder. 

What is your version of cheap?


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## Susquatch (Jun 4, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> I would have a go at it, if you can get it at a lower price.



What kind of price do you think is reasonable?


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## Brent H (Jun 4, 2021)

If you go over it and take into account missing knobs, handles etc - looks like the power feed rate switch is broken, the manual quill feed wheel is missing, the power quill feed up/down neutral selector is missing, x axis lock 

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1297

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1259
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1299
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1300

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1413

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1030

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1206
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1122
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1149

https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1209
https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/product/1148  x2

That is just a cursory list - so if you want to make it nice and original, say you will put $500 in parts into it, grab it for $1500 and fix it up, sell it for $3500??

Mills in the era of that one (same as mine) have the chromed ways so the wear is not as much if lubrication is used and you will see the scrapping still visible.  If the back lash has been looked after and things run well it would be a worthy project and will be the same as the Hartford with respect to most parts.


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 4, 2021)

If the price has dropped to 2 grand i would offer 1500. See what happens.


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## Susquatch (Jun 4, 2021)

Brent H said:


> If you go over it and take into account missing.......... say you will put $500 in parts into it, grab it for $1500 and fix it up, sell it for $3500??...........





6.5 Fan said:


> If the price has dropped to 2 grand i would offer 1500. See what happens.




Great stuff Brent & 6.5 Fan. 

I was even thinking a thousand. She says it has to be out of there by the 8th. (closing date on the shop????) Don't know if she has a contingency plan. Right time right place???

But let's see what she says when I get there tomorrow. 

Cheers & Thx


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2021)

I've seen worse.  If you buy it and touch up the mechanicals, you could always sell it at a (small) profit to one of the Ontario members desparate for their first mill...

at a thousand you might be doing her a favour...


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## Mcgyver (Jun 4, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I'm thinking I might buy it, clean it up, make a few repairs, and flip it. Or if it turns out to be a diamond in the rough, maybe Flip the Hartford.
> 
> Am I crazy?



Its a tough way to make a living.  Factor in the time and hassle of moving and fixing and you'd make 3x as much cleaning houses on the weekend.  Then there this ethical thing....its rare that the problems are limited to what you can see now but once you get start getting it apart the other 3/4's of the problems reveal themselves....what are  you going to do then?  sell it for big bucks to some poor home shop brethren with only 1/4 of it fixed?

In a moment of weakness I agreed to recondition a small lathe in exchange for something from a friend.  Value of the deal is probably around 4000.  I thought yippy, protect the cash flow and get what I want, its only time!  I've done a bunch of reconditioning and should have know better....two months into in, and maybe 1/2 way done I should've just paid cash.  250/week for you leisure hours seems like a decent amount of money.  Its not, below minimum wage and now, until its done, I have no more leisure hours!

oh, and, don't grind something like that table....fraught with risk.   Use a stone or burr file take off anything that's proud and leave the rest.  I just chanced grinding on a small cross slide it caused some warping.  Only a few tenths, but it meant more work scraping to get the dovetails right.  In case you are wondering, I always grind with flood - that stops heat build up but doesn't much effect the temp when the molecule of abrasive meets the molecule of cast iron.  Things can move. (probably not, maybe not, but it sucks when they do)

What would I do?  If I wanted it for me, I'd tell her I can afford X but I will for sure take it if X works for you, while emphasizing the poor condition.  Getting a great deal is nice, but we want to be fair with widows etc for all the obvious reasons.  I'd offer what I thought it was really worth in that condition.  Obviously less than 2, or it wouldn't still be sitting there.   Otherwise, if I didn't want it. I'd pass and spend my time making something I want to make (the dark view from deep inside a big project)


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> I've seen worse.  If you buy it and touch up the mechanicals, you could always sell it at a (small) profit to one of the Ontario members desparate for their first mill.......
> 
> at a thousand you might be doing her a favour...



Kinda what I was thinking. I don't really know her story. But I strongly suspect that the mill will become a free gift to somebody if it doesn't get moved. Maybe the new owner of the shop if that is what is happening. I'm gunna try and go today after I unload the Hartford. It's sitting on my flatbed outside my shop as I write this. It has a few more defects than I anticipated but all in all, I think it's gorgeous. I guess we will see once I get the motor swapped. I wish I knew someone local with a Converter they would loan me.


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

Mcgyver said:


> Its a tough way to make a living.  Factor in the time and hassle of moving and fixing and you'd make 3x as much cleaning houses on the weekend.  Then there this ethical thing....its rare that the problems are limited to what you can see now but once you get start getting it apart the other 3/4's of the problems reveal themselves....what are  you going to do then?  sell it for big bucks to some poor home shop brethren with only 1/4 of it fixed?
> 
> In a moment of weakness I agreed to recondition a small lathe in exchange for something from a friend.  Value of the deal is probably around 4000.  I thought yippy, protect the cash flow and get what I want, its only time!  I've done a bunch of reconditioning and should have know better....two months into in, and maybe 1/2 way done I should've just paid cash.  250/week for you leisure hours seems like a decent amount of money.  Its not, below minimum wage and now, until its done, I have no more leisure hours!
> 
> ...



This is very wise advice. I feel like you know me when you wrote that. I have never knowingly cheated anyone in my whole life. Ethics and integrity are built into my soul.

I have no idea what I will do if it turns out to be a sick pig. Maybe scrap it for parts or just sell it for what it's worth with full disclosure. Or use it to repair my Hartford!

Repairing the bed is a bit of a problem even for my new Hartford. It has a few pecker marks in it. Have you ever tried Devcon Plastic Steel? Unless I am mistaken, it doesn't have to be strong in anything but compression as long as the damage is only top surface. 

My life is full of projects big and small. It gives me purpose. I don't mind some quick flip money but I have not worked for an hourly rate in 50 years and don't put value on my time that way. If I did, I would still be consulting for big bucks. I sure as heck would not be farming or repairing farm equipment or fabricating stuff. My time value at this point in my life is purely a love affair with the projects themselves and the learning experience. And maybe the fear of ever finding myself with nothing to do. 

I expect she won't take my offer if I do make one. But it sounds like a fun deal to me if she does. We will see.


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## historicalarms (Jun 5, 2021)

A heavily "hen pecked" table would indicate to me a lot of use without do-care & attention and indicate a thorough "running trial"  to make sure no "jam-up" damage is evident in the gearing.


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## PeterT (Jun 5, 2021)

I've watched the H&W YouTube videos repairing Bridgeports but I hadn't realized they also sold their own used refurbs. Dang, some nice iron in there. 

http://www.hwmachinerepair.com/machinery-sales.html


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

historicalarms said:


> A heavily "hen pecked" table would indicate to me a lot of use without do-care & attention and indicate a thorough "running trial"  to make sure no "jam-up" damage is evident in the gearing.



Ya, I think I get what you are saying. The Bridgeport has a half dozen 1/2" starter holes in the table. All the same size and same depth but in different places. I can see doing it once and then cursing swearing and vowing never ever to do that again. But a half dozen times? Gotta be an idiot at work there. I'll be checking it from end to end before I put any more money into it.


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

PeterT said:


> I've watched the H&W YouTube videos repairing Bridgeports but I hadn't realized they also sold their own used refurbs. Dang, some nice iron in there.
> 
> http://www.hwmachinerepair.com/machinery-sales.html



Doesn't really matter to me if they do or don't. Seems I own two now......  I'll have my hands full getting them up to snuff and selling one of them.


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

Brent H said:


> .......... If you go over it and take into account missing knobs, handles etc - looks like the power feed rate switch is broken, the manual quill feed wheel is missing, the power quill feed up/down neutral selector is missing, x axis lock
> 
> That is just a cursory list - so if you want to make it nice and original, say you will put $500 in parts into it, grab it for $1500 and fix it up, sell it for $3500??
> 
> Mills in the era of that one (same as mine) have the chromed ways so the wear is not as much if lubrication is used and you will see the scrapping still visible......





6.5 Fan said:


> I would have a go at it, if you can get it at a lower price.





Dabbler said:


> I've seen worse.  If you buy it and touch up the mechanicals, you could always sell it at a (small) profit to one of the Ontario members desparate for their first mill...... at a thousand you might be doing her a favour...



I bought it too.

The story isn't what I expected. Her hubby financed a business with a machinist friend who walked after they bought some equipment. So now they have equipment they don't know how to use and a shop they can't use. The shop is sold and they are trying to get as much as they can for the equipment. I offerred 1.5k and we settled at 1.8K.  Yes, it isn't pretty, and parts are missing, but it's a genuine Bridgeport Series I, and everything seems to work fine and smooth. Couldn't run it without power, but the Spindle feels really nice smooth and solid turning it in my hands. 

I have both machines in my shop now so it's just a matter of going over them with a fine tooth comb, figuring out which one I want to keep and flipping the other one. I like McGiver's outlook on the idea of making a quick buck. It ain't gunna go that way. Flipping stuff is just not my thing. Never was, never will be. But maybe I can learn a few things, have some fun, cover my costs, and make some other fellow spirit happy too. That would be good!


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## 6.5 Fan (Jun 5, 2021)

Sounds like you will be busy in the foreseeable future.


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## Brent H (Jun 5, 2021)

@Susquatch : I have the rebuild manual for the Bridgeport and basically the same era machine.  If you run into issues let me know  and I can either take a picture for you or what ever.   I kept the original feed screws for the x and y if you’re are really bad.
Good purchase !!


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : I have the rebuild manual for the Bridgeport and basically the same era machine.  If you run into issues let me know  and I can either take a picture for you or what ever.   I kept the original feed screws for the x and y if you’re are really bad.
> Good purchase !!



This is great to know and I will definitely take you up on that when the time comes.

Right now, I have my hands full deciding between the Bridgeport in rough condition and the Hartford in great condition. It's clear the Bridgeport has had a hard life, but it also has more features such as a power quill and variable speed adjustment. If it has a belt change system, I don't see how that works as there are no access ports. I don't even know how the variable system works. 

All in good time I guess.


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## Brent H (Jun 5, 2021)

@Susquatch : speed adjustment is the same principal as a snowmobile - the dial handle on the side of the head allows two pulley sheaves to come together or push apart to increase or decrease the speed - always rotate with the machine running! - the system works great.

If you start up a thread of repairs etc that you are doing I can post you pictures specific to what you are looking at - There is a thread I put on here about changing the x axis feed and backlash and a few other tear apart things.  

Once the excitement dies down a bit post some pics of the machines


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## YYCHM (Jun 5, 2021)

We need pictures!!!!


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Susquatch : speed adjustment is the same principal as a snowmobile - the dial handle on the side of the head allows two pulley sheaves to come together or push apart to increase or decrease the speed - always rotate with the machine running! - the system works great.
> 
> If you start up a thread of repairs etc that you are doing I can post you pictures specific to what you are looking at - There is a thread I put on here about changing the x axis feed and backlash and a few other tear apart things.
> 
> Once the excitement dies down a bit post some pics of the machines



I kinda figured that, but the dial moves too easily for that - yes, I foolishly turned it with no motor running........

I do plan to start several new threads. One on fixing up my old mill-drill, one on fixing up the Bridgeport, one on fixing up the Hartford, and maybe one on motor swaps. A lot of stuff has already found its way into this thread.

But on other forums, I find that other members sometimes get annoyed when threads drift off topic or get hyjacked so I'm planning to start new ones to avoid irritating anyone. I must say that it's kinda cool here - nobody has said anything yet.

Yes, I'll be posting photos shortly.


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> We need pictures!!!!



Stay tuned! Coming soon.


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## Crankit (Jun 5, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> I bought it too.
> 
> The story isn't what I expected. Her hubby financed a business with a machinist friend who walked after they bought some equipment. So now they have equipment they don't know how to use and a shop they can't use. The shop is sold and they are trying to get as much as they can for the equipment. I offerred 1.5k and we settled at 1.8K.  Yes, it isn't pretty, and parts are missing, but it's a genuine Bridgeport Series I, and everything seems to work fine and smooth. Couldn't run it without power, but the Spindle feels really nice smooth and solid turning it in my hands.
> 
> I have both machines in my shop now so it's just a matter of going over them with a fine tooth comb, figuring out which one I want to keep and flipping the other one. I like McGiver's outlook on the idea of making a quick buck. It ain't gunna go that way. Flipping stuff is just not my thing. Never was, never will be. But maybe I can learn a few things, have some fun, cover my costs, and make some other fellow spirit happy too. That would be good!



Gotta laugh how things work out....you go from no mill to two!


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## Susquatch (Jun 5, 2021)

6.5 Fan said:


> Sounds like you will be busy in the foreseeable future.



I've been a busy fellow all my life. I'm too old to change now..... But ya, I'll have a few big projects to keep me busy for quite a while. 

When I showed my bride the Bridgeport, she laughed and asked me why I needed so many. Rather than try to explain a plan that I don't even really understand myself just yet, I just asked her why she has 4 sewing machines...... She laughed. I'm sure glad she didn't ask me where I got the money........


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## Tom O (Jun 5, 2021)

Not bad there is also trade for lathe. Options too.


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## Susquatch (Jun 6, 2021)

Tom O said:


> Not bad there is also trade for lathe. Options too.



I have a really nice lathe already. I started with an old leather belt driven late 1800's lathe and many years later I got a nice enclosed gear head 12x36 Lathe. My lathe experience is actually how I first became interested in getting a mill.


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## Susquatch (Jun 6, 2021)

Hi All:

See the following threads for photos of the Bridgeport & Hartford Mills as well as my initial observations:

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-to-me-bridgeport-mill.3491/

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/new-to-me-hartford-mill.3490/

I'll be keeping future notes and updates on those mills on those threads in the future as thou s thread was about finding them. The new threads are about evaluating and fixing them.

Thanks to everyone who helped me on thus incredible journey!


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