# CT 043 issues ..... Repairs -  Completed !!



## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

So , a bit of a long story ..............

I bought a Craftex CT043 in 2004 , a B048 knee mill too and a pile of tooling  , all on the same day .

A short time later , like , within a month the electric motor went out on the lathe , no big deal , warranty covered it and I changed it out myself . The lathe has run very well without issues since , until last month .

I was in the middle of making a part for my boring bar and the lathe started acting weird , the motor would not start , it would just hum , it would start if you helped it with a hand , It seemed down on power . It would not run in reverse either , same thing , just a hum . I decided to stop for the evening .
This is similar to what had happened when it was still new , and a motor change got the machine running again back then . I assumed with out checking anything else that I might need to change the motor and went ahead and ordered one from the Busy Bee store here . A couple of weeks later the motor arrived and I  installed it .................. hmmmm ..... 
Problem was still there !!!, my wallet was lighter to the tune of $360 .

The manual I got when I purchased the machine is poor at best , the way it is translated into chinglish is almost comical.
There is a wiring diagram but it's not real detailed and could possibly be a generic version that I'm thinking  isn't exactly what  I have in the electrical box on this one.
I should consider myself lucky , the machine that replaces this one (CX 707 ) has the same lame manual as this one  except there is no wiring diagram at all .

I know there are several Chi - Com 12 x 36 lathes that share the construction and layout as this one so I went online and found two good manuals very quickly , saved them to my desktop , found the wiring diagrams and printed some pages to study .

I believe there are issues with the contactors and possibly the thermal overload relay  , based on what I have discovered inside the electrical box.

What I'm trying to find out here is if anyone has encountered similar problems with a lathe such as this one and what it took to resolve the issue.





The inside of the electrical box





The thermal overload relay






The wiring diagram on the inside of the electrical box door


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

In the first picture there are three contactors , KM1 , KM2 & KA . When you power up the lathe , by plugging it in  , KA becomes energized , the transformer and the 24 volt control circuits are also energized , KA gives a solid click . When I say power up , I mean plug in the machine or turn on the breaker , my garage only has the one 220 volt outlet  so whatever machine I'm using gets plugged in at that time , the lathe , the knee mill or the welder. There isn't a master power switch on the front control panel , just an emergency stop , a jog button and a power on lamp .
I'm not happy with this arrangement , the transformer & KA contactor remain on the entire time the lathe has power supplied to it.

When you try to turn on the lathe , as mentioned before the motor just hums and doesn't turn , forward or reverse.

I believe the KM1 contactor is reverse and the KM2 contactor is forward .  I believe the issue is with the forward contactor and possibly the thermal overload relay , but my understanding of this arrangement is still cloudy.
Not 100% sure on the relay though , I don't really know what it's function is  , how it works or what the correct operation of the reset buttons and adjustable dial .
Because the electrical box is such a pain in the butt to get to where the lathe is bolted down , yesterday  I removed the box so I could work on it on the bench.

I was able to find a replacement contactor on ebay , I've ordered  two and recieved those , they were inexpensive .
I had to look very hard to find the thermal overload relay , I wasn't able to find an exact match but found one that is real close on ebay  , that's on the way from China.

I've been busy with other projects and up until yesterday I`ve not  worked on the Lathe for several days , I'm waiting for the relay to arrive.

I was somewhat disappointed in Busy Bee for the lack of support in helping me sort this out , Apparently , " due to the age of the machine ", they can not supply any of the parts I require . They were successful in showing me how a sales floor guy can get that far away , deer in the headlights look while you are trying to explain why you are in the store.  This lathe really hasn't changed much since being replaced by it's latest version , I'm guessing the electrical is the same , guessing because when I downloaded the manual for that machine there wasn't a wiring diagram in the book. The machine they have on the floor is parked back to back with another lathe so you can not open the electrical panel and peek inside.

So , can anyone offer any words of encouragement or advice , like maybe I'm on the right track ....... or an attaboy ...... keep up the good work ?


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## Janger (Jan 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> STOP!
> 
> Dont do another thing until you pause and think this thru.
> 
> ...


Talk about paying it forward John! Welcome to the forum.


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## DPittman (Jan 10, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> In the first picture there are three contactors , KM1 , KM2 & KA . When you power up the lathe , KA energizes the transformer and the 24 volt control circuits , that one gives a solid click . When I say power up , I mean plug in the machine or turn on the breaker , my garage only has the one 220 volt outlet  so whatever machine I'm using gets plugged in at that time , the lathe , the knee mill or the welder. There isn't a master power switch on the front control panel , just a emergency stop , an inching button and a power on lamp.
> When you try to turn on the lathe , as mentioned before the motor just hums and doesn't turn , forward or reverse.
> I believe the KM1 contactor is reverse and the KM2 contactor is forward . You can watch  KM2 arcing inside when trying to start the lathe in forward , also , you can visibly see the KM2  has some smokey residue like deposits around the I/O lever . I believe the issue is with the forward contactor and possibly the thermal overload relay .
> Not 100% sure on the relay though , I don't really know what it's function is  , how it works or what the correct operation of the reset buttons and adjustable dial .
> ...


Unfortunately I will be about as much help as Busy Bee Tools...zero, zilch, nada, nothing. 
However FWIW, the wiring diagram on my Craftex lathe (cx700) was incorrect in one detail, it was mostly right but as you know just one small change in wiring can be significant.  I was not electrically smart enough to pick up the mistake myself but a hired electronics repair guy identified it for me.  
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your schematic but I would not take much from the manufacturer as gospel truth.


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 10, 2022)

Usually motor starting by hand means there is problem with the capacitors or at most of the starting wiring. Easy to test, run it outside of the lathe. Since you now have two motors do it. Just connect them to 240V and run.

Now since this is REVERSING system the reverse switches two wires. This switching mechanism could have died. When I wired my drum switch in mayford lathe I made a mistake. I connected wrong wires. Result was motor humming (both forward and reverse). 

So the reverser may have given a ghost. But first test both motors connecting them to 240v in one direction. I bet they both run. Sorry for wasting 360 CAD.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

I`m trying to be careful , the sting of having tossed away $360 is still fresh.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

Tom Kitta said:


> Usually motor starting by hand means there is problem with the capacitors or at most of the starting wiring. Easy to test, run it outside of the lathe. Since you now have two motors do it. Just connect them to 240V and run.
> 
> Now since this is REVERSING system the reverse switches two wires. This switching mechanism could have died. When I wired my drum switch in mayford lathe I made a mistake. I connected wrong wires. Result was motor humming (both forward and reverse).
> 
> So the reverser may have given a ghost. But first test both motors connecting them to 240v in one direction. I bet they both run. Sorry for wasting 360 CAD.


What is odd is , I was using the lathe , for over 17 years , one day , while using it this started happening.. I`ll try the motor that came off of it on the bench when I get a chance.


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## trlvn (Jan 10, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> disappointed in Busy Bee for the lack of support ... sales floor guy


AIUI, only the Concord location in Ontario has anybody that could be considered technical support.  Try calling them.

Craig


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

I spoke with the store manager here in Calgary today , It took several weeks to get a straight answer out of them , while we were on the phone she  suggested I call customer service . I thanked her for calling me back and told her I`ll figure this out one way or another .


trlvn said:


> AIUI, only the Concord location in Ontario has anybody that could be considered technical support.  Try calling them.
> 
> Craig





TorontoBuilder said:


> You could have converted to 3 phase for that money.
> 
> Contactors wear out, especially chinese ones where they use the least amount of metal for the contact points for low voltage duty.
> 
> One question though. You tried to start in both forward and reverse correct? I can't assume anything...


Yes , I tried forward and reverse , also  I didn`t do anything foolish , just test some voltage value`s and try and get it started , I had the overload relay disconnected from KM1 to look at it and then put it back in position , I played with the reset buttons a bit , in the picture you can see I messed with buttons.

I have two of the CN6 contactors new , the plan was replace the one that is bad , the other would be a spare .


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## Susquatch (Jan 10, 2022)

If this were my lathe, and since you can spin it to get it going, the first thing I'd check would be the capacitors. The time it has run without problems strengthens that possibility because caps fail when they are new or over a long period of time. 

Not saying that it's not something else. Just sayin it's easy to check caps.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 10, 2022)

I`m liking the easy to replace all three contactors and go another 17 years comment


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## Susquatch (Jan 10, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That was my first thought since I had to replace our capacitors but that would not explain the issue with the new motor, unless he had to swap the capacitors over which is highly unlikely but I wont assume anything when it comes to busy bee. There is a reason I did not buy a new motor from them



I was going to go through that possibility too but figured it just made my post too long. Long posts are one of my faults. 

Too many times in my life, I've made the mistake of believing that a new part is a good part. 

In other words, nothing says the new motor didn't come with bad caps too. It just happened on my air conditioner fan motor this past summer.  Old motor fried. New motor didn't work. New Caps were bad from the factory. Put the old caps on the new motor. Worked great. Ordered new caps anyway cuz the ones prolly won't last. 

Bottom line - easy to check them. So why not check them. Got nothing to lose.


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## Susquatch (Jan 10, 2022)

I guess, while I'm at it, I should add another thought. Overvthe course of my career I learned lots of things but three of the most important were "connections connections connections". More often than not a bad connection was the problem. It's possible that your original problem was a connection and it has come back. It's another thing that's easy to check. Make sure all the connections are good with zero resistance - especially all those contactor connections. But check everything. And make sure your grounds are good too. 

It's an easy thing to do. And you might be surprised to see what you find. And if it's not a problem, at least you checked for it.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

Update on my lathe ...................... it's still broken. 

 I'm both disappointed and unhappy.

Here's what's happened since I last posted.

I waited a while for parts ,  the contactors arrived but there is a set of poles on them that are normally open and I need contactors that have  that set of poles normally closed , it appears that the description on ebay did not clearly show the configuration , my order was based on me assuming the CN-6 on the box was the part number . 

A lot of this could have been avoided if Busy Bee had better product support , better manuals , an actual wiring diagram included with the equipment they sell and people in their store who had a clue. 

Also there's a thermal overload relay coming from China that may not be here till march , potentially , that could be incorrect too . 

The new motor is still on the lathe . It still just hums when you try to start it. 
I have removed the entire control box to work on it on the bench and found that the contactors I bought from ebay are not the correct part even though the packaging and labeling made it appear that I was buying the right parts. The control box is back on the lathe , it's been on and off a few times. 
The original contactors are still mounted  in the control box. I still believe one or more of them are bad.
The control circuits on the lathe are operational , power light , "E" stop , jog switch ? not sure on that one the motor doesn't run , I've never used the jog switch before , the forward & reverse switches work.
I made a wiring diagram of the electrical circuits , so I could figure out how it all works , having said that , I still do not understand how the contactors work , what poles do what ? .
Not sure what my next move is , I've ordered capacitors in case I need them , they are cheap and should be here Wednesday  . I'm not sure how to test a capacitor. 

And ......... there's you're update in case anyone was hoping I'd report back .

Not good news and  I'm pretty much done with Busy Bee , I may go in there to buy the odd thing from time to time but will never buy any machinery there again. I pretty much have bought every machine tool accessory they sell over the last twenty years I've shopped there


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## Darren (Jan 23, 2022)

wire the motor directly to the power cord, with the belts removed. What happens when you plug it in?


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

I have not tried that yet ( hangs head in shame) , i'm thinking ,  I better get the connections right so I don't ruin the new motor


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## YYCHM (Jan 23, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I have not tried that yet ( hangs head in shame) , i'm thinking ,  I better get the connections right so I don't ruin the new motor


Is it a DC Motor or 110 AC?


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Is it a DC Motor or 110 AC?


Single phase 220 v , with fwd. & rev. , all done with contactors n' switches


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

Yes , I'm taking a break from this till tomorrow  , at that time I will try n' figure out what connections need to be made .

I'm kinda pissed that I picked the wrong contactors off ebay


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

Here's the motor I took off 






And the motor I got from BBT


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## Darren (Jan 23, 2022)

Lets keep it simple. On a 240v motor, there will be two hot wires and a ground. disconnect the power cable where it comes into the cabinet, and hook the two hots to the two hot leads from the motor. When you flip the breaker, or plug in the cable, the motor, if its good, should spin. If it does, the power feed is good, and the motor is good, and we can move on to controls/contactors, etc.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 23, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Lets keep it simple. On a 240v motor, there will be two hot wires and a ground. disconnect the power cable where it comes into the cabinet, and hook the two hots to the two hot leads from the motor. When you flip the breaker, or plug in the cable, the motor, if its good, should spin. If it does, the power feed is good, and the motor is good, and we can move on to controls/contactors, etc.


Thank's

There are four wires on this one , a ground and three more , this is where I get confused.

The wires are marked Z1  U2  Z2  & there is the ground


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 24, 2022)

What I did today ..........................

I removed the power cord from the electrical box , connected it to the old motor a couple of ways , it only ran in one direction .
I then connected the cord to the new motor and got nothing  any way I tried to connect it.
I received new capacitors today , for now I'm gonna leave them in the package.

I have decided to bring in someone who's area of expertise is this kind of thing .

 I'm a mechanic , I have been for a very long time , I have successfully repaired lots and lots of mechanical and electrical issues on all kinds of vehicles , my ratio of success to failure rate is proof  I know my trade . This is not my trade , I'm venturing into unfamiliar territory with this. This type of thing is out of my wheelhouse  , I'm un familiar with it and lacking in confidence  .
Taking advice from random people on the internet is also something I'm not comfortable with. 
Every electrical drawing I've found online  is different than my machine , including the one that John posted of a CT 041 , my machine is not wired like that , it's almost like the little yellow man wires this crap randomly , each one being unique in layout and components used.
What I did do during the process of trying to repair this is make my own wiring diagram . How the contactors work is still a mystery , I am unable to operate the on / off switch while using my meter , I only have two arthritic hands. Also , because I don't work on this sort of equipment I have zero knowledge on how to test a capacitor .

Like Scotty said on the enterprise  " I'm a mechanic  Jim , not a magician" 

I must thank everyone for participating up till now


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## Darren (Jan 24, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> What I did today ..........................
> 
> I removed the power cord from the electrical box , connected it to the old motor a couple of ways , it only ran in one direction .
> I then connected the cord to the new motor and got nothing  any way I tried to connect it.
> ...



I'm a fellow auto tech.

The contactors are relays, and work exactly the same. The coil pulls in the contacts.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 24, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I'm a fellow auto tech.
> 
> The contactors are relays, and work exactly the same. The coil pulls in the contacts.


I partially disassembled one of the contactors to look inside , you can only go so far without breaking something so I stopped and put it back together , I was looking for burned contacts or obvious damage , I was unable to open it up far enough to see the contacts .
 I've only worked on this in short intervals because it pisses me off and I've got other things to do that are progressing as planned and are more stimulating than dicking around with this lathe.


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## Darren (Jan 24, 2022)

Also, most contactors can be manually engaged for testing. So you could test their current carrying capability by putting the contacts inline between the cord and motor, for testing purposes, and close the contacts manually.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 24, 2022)

If I could afford it , I'd get rid of this lathe , get a better one & be done with all of this BS  , for the record , the last place I'd buy one is BBT


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## deleted_user (Jan 24, 2022)

BigCliveDotCom did a tear down of these contactors if you want to have a closer look and then try again


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## terry_g (Jan 25, 2022)

I have the same lathe which I purchased in 2009. It has never given me a problem.
When I bought it BB tools had a freight subsidy and paid around 70% of the freight.
A consideration when you live 1400 kilometres north of Vancouver. If I had any issues
with the electrical I would try to source a drum switch like I had on my 10K Southbend lathe
and replace the Craftex electrics with that.


			Amazon.ca


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)

terry_g said:


> I have the same lathe which I purchased in 2009. It has never given me a problem.
> When I bought it BB tools had a freight subsidy and paid around 70% of the freight.
> A consideration when you live 1400 kilometres north of Vancouver. If I had any issues
> with the electrical I would try to source a drum switch like I had on my 10K Southbend lathe
> ...



That's a heck of a good idea IMHO....



			https://www.princessauto.com/en/2-hp-electric-motor-reversing-switch/product/PA0008078693


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

VFD is for 3 phase motors. If the new motor can be exchanged for a 3 phase motor, thats the way i'd go. one contactor to power up vfd, vfd powers 3ph motor, lathe controls will control inputs to vfd


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## Tom Kitta (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The problem is that the electrical work in the lathe is so confusing for people not familiar with these lathes that the average person can't work on them. I doubt that gearhead really would be up to that task.
> 
> I have seen so many people have issues with the 043 that I wonder how BB remained in business. I know at any given time someone is on a forum calling for help
> 
> At this point with two apparently dead motors or at least partially dead motors and who knows what issues with the contactors I'd bite the bullet and gut the thing, and then rewire a with a couple of simple circuits to run estop button and the other safeties and then activate a single 220 v contactor that would power external VFD.  Then wire the motor from there. Speed and directional inputs via the VFD ports.



BB just ignores the warranty. Easy solution 

Why get motors from BB? If money is not an issue get motors from other places or used off auctions or even I probably have one or two hanging around. Main issue is reversing - PA motors in 1ph are all reversing AFAIK. I wired reversing for motors before, it can be confusing, especially when you make a mistake.


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## terry_g (Jan 25, 2022)

The wiring diagrams on electric motors are awful.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 25, 2022)

Eventually this Lathe will run again , it was a pleasure to use , when it ran and always produced nice parts . 

The electrical is a joke and the product support from BBT is terrible. 

I'm not sure what is going to happen to repair it just yet but If it makes anyone feel better , I am finding inspiration in the comments and suggestions .
Now , if I had enough experience to make a good decision on which direction to take.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> True.
> 
> But almost all 220 reversing motors are wired the same way...
> 
> L and N connect to U1 and U2 respectively. The confusion lies in reverse.... you not only swap the L and N leads but the Z1 and V1 leads reverse as well....


I'm voting for this comment as the best explanation today


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## YYCHM (Jan 25, 2022)




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## Gearhead88 (Jan 25, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> View attachment 20363


I think I have that same Mill / Drill or one very similar to it . Funny thing is , the motor on it is the same part # as my new lathe motor but it's 110 volt and it has a fwd / rev. drum switch


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm liking the drum switch idea


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

the only issue with the drum switch is that any safety interlocks will likely be defeated, and they are not nearly as safe or reliable as contactors.


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## Darren (Jan 25, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> You brought 110 to a gunfight?
> 
> I have had two old cast iron dewalt radial arm saws with dual voltage motors, they both came to me wired 110, and I immediately wired for 220v.
> 
> Less chance overheating IMO


I see 220 in his pic? besides, it doesn't matter for this discussion. Neutral can be exhanged for L2, its the internal connections that change.


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## Susquatch (Jan 26, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> if you're big enough to own tools you're big enough to use adult voltages





TorontoBuilder said:


> You brought 110 to a gunfight?



These are totally hilarious! I never heard either one before. Gotta remember those..... 

Three phase 550 anyone? 

Must be for old men going to war wearing Depends....


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 28, 2022)

I had a little break in the action today and poked around on the Craptex Lathe .

I can only take  short intervals of this , I get flustered and walk away , also , I was having trouble with one of my multimeters , this has been going on throughout the entire process of trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with this P.O.S. , for weeks , adding to the frustration.

Todays observations..................

The motor is off the machine  right now , both motors are resting , side by side on the bench to be looked at maybe tomorrow .

 I spoke with a guy who is a master electrician , he  repairs  all kinds of industrial equipment  , he's quite busy and it might be two weeks before he can have a look .

I've been using an older multimeter for testing  , an OTC  , it seems to have a mind of it's own and trying to get into the correct range is a pain in the butt , just when you think you are there it starts going crazy , looking at the label on the back tells me it's more crap from China ........... I used to use that meter a lot and liked it , not so much now.
 I have a very nice Snapon meter at work that I enjoy using , it's at work though .
I went out to the motorhome and got another multimeter ( DiLog) which scrolls between ranges perfectly and doesn't pick up any transient interference from the fluorescent lights in my shop , this is a meter I've had over thirty years and it still works great .
I was able to actually get some measurements off the  contactors and observe the behavior of them . The KM1 contactor is for reverse as I initially thought , that's the one with the thermal overload relay connected to it . When you select reverse with  the switch on the carriage , it clicks and you can see with the meter that it is doing it's job . The contactor beside it , KM 2 doesn't click at all and appears to be toast  , I believe that one is for forward . The funny thing with KM 2 is , when this whole episode began weeks ago , it would click & throw a few sparks around when you tried to select forward with the switch on the carriage , now it's dead .
KA contactor clicks when the lathe has power and stays that way , the funny thing with that one is , you can kill the power to the lathe , unplug it and that contactor remains in the closed position ,  eventually it clicks and opens up , like , an hour or so later , when I stopped farting around with the lathe and switched to doing other work I had going on , I heard it switch off  when I happened to be standing there. This happened to me as well ,the other day when I was tinkering with it and walked away , a short time later I heard a click , it was KA contactor opening up .

I got a new thermal overload relay off of ebay , it came from China , arrived way ahead of what I had expected or what they had projected as a shipping time. this part is sitting off to the side with the start & run capacitors I bought from Amazon.
This morning I ordered three of the correct contactors off ebay , those are shipping from China .
I reached out to the company in Concord Ontario where the first set of contactors came from to see if I could return them  , they've been paid and  must not care and it's been a week without them returning my email.

I worked on it for an hour or so calmly and then moved on to other more stimulating stuff I have going on. Using an actual working multi meter today was almost like a breakthru !!

Tomorrow is a new day , I'll mess with it some more


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 28, 2022)

I should mention , they could not  have made the direction switches any harder to get to , this pisses me off.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

Did you ever test the original capacitors against their stated rating? I happen to be talking to motor shop in Calgary & they said they routinely test capacitors for customers. I'm not sure if that meant more specialized equipment beyond the typical meter. But he said they often see problematic caps that are A) degraded B) not up to their own stated specs C) sometimes undersized for the duty they see. My own limited experience is if they are in that grey zone of not-quite-pooched it can drive you nutty chasing other likely issues.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 28, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Did you ever test the original capacitors against their stated rating? I happen to be talking to motor shop in Calgary & they said they routinely test capacitors for customers. I'm not sure if that meant more specialized equipment beyond the typical meter. But he said they often see problematic caps that are A) degraded B) not up to their own stated specs C) sometimes undersized for the duty they see. My own limited experience is if they are in that grey zone of not-quite-pooched it can drive you nutty chasing other likely issues.


No , the reason is , I don't have a clue how to do that.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2022)

I think ideally your meter should have a capacitance mode setting. The other modes are more indirect? Smarter electrical guys than me can chime in on this video. I've heard the screwdriver bleed off is not great for them but not sure what other options would be advised. Maybe some kind of resistance but above my pay grade. That's why I was suggesting a shop could check it. If it wasn't for one that blew not far from my head maybe I would be braver with my advise. My shorts were the same color as what leaked out of the cap HaHa,


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## Susquatch (Jan 28, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> No , the reason is , I don't have a clue how to do that.


Here is a link to a post I provided earlier

Post in thread 'Craftex CX709 motor issue?' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/craftex-cx709-motor-issue.4361/post-59368


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 28, 2022)

Thank's guys


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 28, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Here is a link to a post I provided earlier
> 
> Post in thread 'Craftex CX709 motor issue?' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/craftex-cx709-motor-issue.4361/post-59368


The meter I'm using now has a capacitance test function on the dial . This meter was a knock off of a Fluke back in 1990 ish , it was in my tool box in the motorhome , stashed there incase I need it.

Part of the kerfuffle with trying to find the lathe problem was me not using a meter that works properly and not having any experience with AC motors n' contactors .


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## Degen (Jan 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> That's a heck of a good idea IMHO....
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.princessauto.com/en/2-hp-electric-motor-reversing-switch/product/PA0008078693


I had wired a switch (used) like this into my Logan lathe. And a primary start stop switch (later), put both in at the same time.

Reason A/C motors don't like sudden reverses, when you switch off and accidentally over shoot the off position......don't ask how I know .

Set direction first with direction switch, start/stop via start/stop switch (mines a simple toggle switch, no access to fancy switches at the time).


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## Susquatch (Jan 29, 2022)

Degen said:


> Reason A/C motors don't like sudden reverses, when you switch off and accidentally over shoot the off position......don't ask how I know


Unless you have a 3ph and VFD. On the fly direction changes become a piece of cake with no adverse consequences that I know of.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 29, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> KM2 sounds like the contactor welded itself closed at the high voltage contact points.


Quite likely , I'm gonna give it another look today before I work on other stuff that I actually like doing.

 Also , It's possible that because of the welded / damaged contactor The new motor may be damaged too .

I'll be removing the electrical box again today after I do some more checking with my meter , it's way easier working on it on the bench . 

I've got a cool  project going that doesn't require the use of a lathe , I've managed to work around this P.O.S. being down but there is a list of stuff to do once it's running again.


----------



## Degen (Jan 29, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Unless you have a 3ph and VFD. On the fly direction changes become a piece of cake with no adverse consequences that I know of.


Sorry meant to say single phase.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 29, 2022)

These dinky little contactors do not come apart easily , I'm going to just change them and start fresh  . I have three ordered from the land of China . 

Finding this stuff locally or in Canada is a crapshoot , no one has any of it . 

The manager at BBT told me " you can't expect us to stock parts for a machine that old " which I saw as a semi polite way of blowing me off , the lathe that replaces this one is a CX 707 , it probably has the exact same components and layout inside the electrical box , I was unable to confirm that though  , they have another lathe shoved up against the back of it so you can not have a look , you should have seen the glare I got for suggesting we move it so I could look inside. The manual for the CX 707 does not include a wiring diagram. 

 The fact that they were un willing to help me sends a pretty clear message , anyone who buys this stuff is on their own if anything goes wrong , they do not have parts and  they do not have anyone on staff that has the depth or customer service savy to deal with technical problems.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 29, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> This is exactly what I feared originally and why I never just replace a motor without checking an entire energizing circuit for issues first.
> 
> Fir our last move we removed the lathe motor. We got the lathe moved and reassembled except for mounting the motor again. It is a pig to mount due to the manner the pivot pins have to be aligned where there is little room to access them. I wasn't able to attend the shop on one of the following day so my brother did this himself.
> 
> ...


If I'da known at the beginning This could have been resolved more quickly , that and using an actual working multimeter from the start would'a been beneficial.


----------



## deleted_user (Jan 29, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> If I'da known at the beginning This could have been resolved more quickly , that and using an actual working multimeter from the start would'a been beneficial.


sorry, I am working on that list for you btw...


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

In the process of working my way through this I was not pleased with the wiring diagram provided by BBT , it pissed me off , I do not think clearly when I'm pissed off.
This is the one in the owners manual , Fig 8 "Electrical Principium " is what they call it , what a joke !.





This is the one inside the electrical box , on the door .





The drawings above are almost useless , anyone who has purchased a CX707 is on their own to figure any of this out.
There's no master power switch , for over 18 years , I've been just plugging it in and using the breaker to power it up. There's so much missing from both of the diagrams  they provided , I was confused from the start , I always thought I had a good handle on electrical , well , automotive / mobile equipment / low voltage systems anyways.



I've made my own drawings  , this is the only way I can get my brain around how this thing is wired . I'm working on a second diagram , detailing the "e" stop , power lamp , jog button & the switches on the carriage . In my day to day activities as a mechanic  , it's how I have been able to successfully complete repairs , by having an actual wiring diagram to work with. The wiring diagram inside the door and in the owners manual are not even close to being helpful .


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

Looks like the current King model same dimensions.  Down load thier manual and go from there.


----------



## terry_g (Jan 30, 2022)

The Grizzly G4003 lathe is very similar. The manual is available on line at:


			https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf
		


The diagrams are decent.


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

As a reminder owners of Grizzly and BB are brothers, just found out a few days ago that one of their machine suppliers is now one of their inlaws (BB side)


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> You know I sent you a much better diagram in colour... I'll repost below.
> 
> There is a master switch too. But it is interlocked with spindle speed direction switches. I sent you a detailed post describing the order of the activation of the safety circuit that energizes the KA contactor and turns on the main power light. I can repost it if you can't locate the reply
> 
> ...


The problem I have with the drawings you have sent is , It's not wired like that , some of it is nice to look at , however this one is different , this is the Grizzly ? 

I downloaded the Drawing of the grizzly weeks ago  , close but not the same either.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 30, 2022)

Degen said:


> As a reminder owners of Grizzly and BB are brothers,



I did NOT know that! 

So how does the inlaw supplier connection work?


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

Degen said:


> As a reminder owners of Grizzly and BB are brothers, just found out a few days ago that one of their machine suppliers is now one of their inlaws (BB side)


Yes , I knew this a very long time ago , they are probably together celebrating Chinese new year as we speak.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

terry_g said:


> The Grizzly G4003 lathe is very similar. The manual is available on line at:
> 
> 
> https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf
> ...


Yes they are I saw them in December , It's wired different though and the contactors are not the same as the CT 043


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I did NOT know that!
> 
> So how does the inlaw supplier connection work?


Appetantly the Daughter of the supplier is the inlaw.  Found out last week.


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Yes they are I saw them in December , It's wired different though and the contactors are not the same as the CT 043


I might suggest that you contact the Concord office in Toronto.  They still
Have some old staff that know their way around the old products (and they have some old parts stock).


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> This is exactly the same as what I posted..
> 
> The contactors are standard 220v 3 pole contactors with a normally closed auxillary contact, the only difference is grizzly accepts lower amperage specification. They operate identically and are merely made by a different manufacturer.





TorontoBuilder said:


> Did you look at the drawing I made  ?


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> My apologies.
> 
> I had not previously looked at the diagram that you drew up. I just did now.
> 
> ...


I have a rough drawing of the rest of it , the front panel  , light , jog button , E stop 
 I have the spindle switches exposed so I can look at them and have drawn out that circuit as well .
Still working on the circuits for the wiring of the motor .
Once I have it finalized I'll make a nice drawing for keeps , To be kept in the manual .
I gotta say , having gone through this wire by wire has me understanding it much better and less head scratching.

A couple of things bug me about the drawing they provide in the owners guide is they do not draw all the wires as it is laid out inside the electrical box , is this to save ink ? .
I've never liked drawings done that way , the jerks that draw them think it's simplified and easier to read , not so much for me , I want to see all the wires .
Another thing that bugs me about this machine is not having a master power switch.
Also , it has several places where oil seeps , I should be used to that , having worked for years at a Harley Davidson Dealership.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The lathe does have a master power switch. It is the combined E-stop button and two interlocked spindle direction switches.  They've chosen to think every user is an idiot that needs extra protection. I can't argue with that logic having seen what some people do with their lathes.
> 
> BB provides the drawing the way they do to merely show the control scheme. It is the simplest to represent, but unless you understand things well you have a hard time relating that to the actual wiring.


The transformer and the light on the front panel remain on constantly when the lathe is plugged in and the breaker is on , regardless of the E stop button. The transformer is warm to the touch when the power is on.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

On this one I just remove power so I don't have to worry about anything overheating and my shop going up in smoke


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

Degen said:


> I might suggest that you contact the Concord office in Toronto.  They still
> Have some old staff that know their way around the old products (and they have some old parts stock).


I'll try , but I'm not gonna have any expectations that they might help , the manager in the store here , claimed to have talked to them and said there was very little they could do for me with "such an old machine" , her sourness made me bitter.


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

Here is another site with the same lathe and issues and the solution.









						Craftex CT043N - No Power and No Wiring Diagram
					

Hi All,  My Craftex CT043N lathe suddenly stopped working on me this afternoon.  I’ve got power at the plug, the relays buzz when I try to activate but no power light and no motor.  I searched through my manuals thinking there was a schematic somewhere (there’s not one included in the operating...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				





I have had motor issues on my mill twice, both time motor contact wiring inside the motor.  First time loose wire, second time melted contactor block (second was replaced with a used block odd size from my motor shop and this started me down the road to VFD and ultimately CNC).


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> My apologies.
> 
> I had not previously looked at the diagram that you drew up. I just did now.
> 
> ...


So , looking at the Grizzly wiring and then looking at the BBT wiring as shown on the label inside the door on my lathe and then looking at the motor wiring I actually have ............
I see an additional wire that my machine doesn't have , Both the Grizzly and the BBT drawing have a U1 wire that connects to N , giving  the motor wiring four wires plus the ground .
My machine does not have that U1 wire , it has a Z1 , U2 , Z2 and the ground , I brought this up quite a while ago .


----------



## Degen (Jan 30, 2022)

Might I suggest a few pics of your wiring, some may spot your problem and highlight it for you.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

Here's a pic , showing of the terminal strip . The power coming in from the wall outlet along the bottom  is the ground , black &  red wires , there is a 110 outlet I put on the side of the machine for a work light and a coolant pump that I never did add  , that's why there's a  Black and a white wire  coming off the terminal strip on the upper row of terminals.
The motor wires are the three between the red wire and the white wire on the lower row.

My question to you is , should my motor have three wires or four ? , it's always had the three shown here .

Oh , and thank you for reminding me that I'm " lacking fundamental understanding of motor operation" , I've said it before , several times , this is not my area of expertise .


----------



## combustable herbage (Jan 30, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> In the process of working my way through this I was not pleased with the wiring diagram provided by BBT , it pissed me off , I do not think clearly when I'm pissed off.
> This is the one in the owners manual , Fig 8 "Electrical Principium " is what they call it , what a joke !.
> View attachment 20518
> 
> ...


Sorry to add to the suggestions but if you take the live and neutral off were they come in on the bottom left of your drawing at the over load device and take the live and neutral off at the transformer and replace them with the two you took off first  in my recollection you would still power the contactors and could safely measure across the contactors first with voltage to make sure there is none and then test for continuity across your contactors both energized and deenergized, de energized should be no continuity and energized should be continuity.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

This is the old motor 







This is the new motor


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> Sorry to add to the suggestions but if you take the live and neutral off were they come in on the bottom left of your drawing at the over load device and take the live and neutral off at the transformer and replace them with the two you took off first  in my recollection you would still power the contactors and could safely measure across the contactors first with voltage to make sure there is none and then test for continuity across your contactors both energized and deenergized, de energized should be no continuity and energized should be continuity.


We've kind of already established that I have a bad contactor so what you are suggesting really isn't a test that is necessary at this point  , the guts of this thing is on the bench right now .


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Despite the fact you admit that this is not your area of expertise you continue to question those trying very hard to help you.
> 
> asked and answered. Your motor requires just two leads to operate, but just 3 leads to have the contactors do the work of changing the rotation.


The reason I ask questions is  .....
What is shown in the Grizzly drawing  is clearly showing a four wire motor setup , the picture of the terminal strip shows  four terminals feeding the motor  inside the electrical box , the illustration of the motor shows four wires & the ground.
The drawing inside my electrical box  shows four wires but it only has three actually going to the motor & the ground.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

So where is this capped off wire ?


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

Each electrical box is like a box of chocolates , you never know what you might get


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Each electrical box is like a box of chocolates , you never know what you might get



Drum switch and you'll never have to look in that electrical box again.............


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

I used to have a text book , probably from a technical school or vocational college all about motors , I scoured the house and garage , gone , some dickhead swiped it


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Drum switch and you'll never have to look in that electrical box again.............


I spoke with a master electrician on Friday and mentioned that I'm mulling over using a drum switch , he advised that there could be problems related to using one . We'll be speaking again and I'll find out if or if not this is a reasonable and safe route to take . I might go buy one of those switches at PA , they are $70 I think.

My mill / drill uses a drum switch


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 30, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I spoke with a master electrician on Friday and mentioned that I'm mulling over using a drum switch , he advised that there could be problems related to using one . We'll be speaking again and I'll find out if or if not this is a reasonable and safe route to take . I might go buy one of those switches at PA , they are $70 I think.
> 
> My mill / drill uses a drum switch



What HP are we talking here?  Would you miss all the interlock crap or the jog function?


----------



## Gearhead88 (Jan 30, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What HP are we talking here?  Would you miss all the interlock crap or the jog function?


The label on the motor says 2 HP  as did the one I removed ,  however , the machine is advertised as having a 1.5 HP motor in the catalog , I still have one of  the catalogs they used to print .

I've never used the jog function .

 During this whole episode for the ease of getting at the motor I removed the chuck safety switch and the guard itself , purely  for the convenience of working on the lathe , also ,  the belt guard / gear cover switch is removed .
I won't be putting either of those back on . I do not feel that the chuck guard is necessary in my situation , it's cheaply built and  I never liked it anyways , having operated several lathes that never had one.

While the machine is down , I'm working on tightening up the forward / reverse linkage , it's kind of loose and flimsy after 17 + years of use ., the switches , at this point still work as intended.
 If I had to use a drum switch to select forward or reverse , mounted in an alternate location and lose the carriage mounted fwd/rev switch , it wouldn't break my heart.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

Degen said:


> Might I suggest a few pics of your wiring, some may spot your problem and highlight it for you.
> 
> View attachment 20530



LOVE THE GIF!! 

I swiped it and you will probably see it again soon enough! 

@YYCHM should copy it too. He is ALWAYS asking for pics!


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I do not feel that the chuck guard is necessary in my situation , it's cheaply built and I never liked it anyways , having operated several lathes that never had one.



My lathe does not have the gaurd. I've often thought about adding one to control chip fling. Then I realize it would soon be covered in sling oil and be useless. In a weird way, I'm kinda glad to hear you have one and won't be putting it back. Always nice to scratch something off of the potential project list. 

If you were to replace all the wiring complexity with something simple as @YYCHM suggests, what functionality would you want to keep and what would you be happy to lose? 

I ask this later question because I may be doing something similar down the road. I want to replace my single phase 2hp motor with a 3phase 3hp motor and vfd - primarily to get lower speed capability, but better speed control in higher ranges would be good too. So I'm just thinking ahead and noodling the issues. Your thread has been great food for thought.


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## Gearhead88 (Jan 31, 2022)

There's several ways this machine could be altered to eliminate some of the complexity , There have been some great suggestions so far .

I'd like to retain the "E" stop button and as already suggested use that to power up a single contactor , I'd also like a front control panel mounted master power switch to kill all power to the transformer and control circuits . The drum switch idea is favourable too for directional control , if it will work and be safe . I'm not sure what thermal overload protection this motor requires so I need to learn more about that . As far as re-wiring it goes , I'd be all over that and is well within my comfort zone , I just need to work out the details .

The 3 phase conversion with a VFD ? sounds like a good idea, however I have zero knowledge of how it works ? , what I'd need ? , how much it would cost ? . I do not know what VFD is .

Replacing everything that's wrecked with new components , not changing the layout or wiring scheme was what I was going to do initially and may still do if I can locate the correct parts.


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> There's several ways this machine could be altered to eliminate some of the complexity , There have been some great suggestions so far .
> 
> I'd like to retain the "E" stop button and as already suggested use that to power up a single contactor , I'd also like a front control panel mounted master power switch to kill all power to the transformer and control circuits . The drum switch idea is favourable too for directional control , if it will work and be safe . I'm not sure what thermal overload protection this motor requires so I need to learn more about that . As far as re-wiring it goes , I'd be all over that and is well within my comfort zone , I just need to work out the details .
> 
> ...


I'd either fix the problem, or go 3ph/vfd....you won't regret it. All your factory controls will integrate easy. On both my lathes, you'd never know a vfd was powering them, except for the speed control knobs.

The idea of fixing this problem with a drum switch is silly, in my mind. Its not a 1/2hp 1943 6" craftsman


----------



## Degen (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> LOVE THE GIF!!
> 
> I swiped it and you will probably see it again soon enough!
> 
> @YYCHM should copy it too. He is ALWAYS asking for pics!


I pulled off another site I visit that uses the same system for its forum.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> There's several ways this machine could be altered to eliminate some of the complexity , There have been some great suggestions so far .
> 
> I'd like to retain the "E" stop button and as already suggested use that to power up a single contactor , I'd also like a front control panel mounted master power switch to kill all power to the transformer and control circuits . The drum switch idea is favourable too for directional control , if it will work and be safe . I'm not sure what thermal overload protection this motor requires so I need to learn more about that . As far as re-wiring it goes , I'd be all over that and is well within my comfort zone , I just need to work out the details .
> 
> ...



I see.

Good list.

I basically agree with @dfloen. If it were mine, I'd either fix it and keep it original or go VFD. But heck, mine isn't even broken and I want to go VFD! So I'm not sure what my opinion is really worth. I'm so biased it is almost criminal......

A VFD has built in reverse. You just need a simple inexpensive SPDT switch. Certainly a better solution than a drum switch. But to go with that cheap switch you will need a new very expensive 3phase motor..... LOL! 

You can get full shutoff with a wall switch. No power in = no power period.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> The 3 phase conversion with a VFD ? sounds like a good idea, however I have zero knowledge of how it works ? , what I'd need ? , how much it would cost ? . I do not know what VFD is .



Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. The wise man in me says let someone else answer that question. The fool in me says here goes.... 

In the simplest terms I can muster. A VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) is a device that typically converts single phase input into a 3 phase output to drive a 3 phase motor. But with the wizardry of modern microcontrollers, a VFD can also change the output frequency and sequence to change the speed and direction of the motor. The end result is a lathe that will still run at all your mechanically set gear speeds and virtually anything in between. With the right motor, your minimum speed can be 1/10 it's current minimum and that is what really turns my crank!


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> A VFD has built in reverse. You just need a simple inexpensive SPDT switch. Certainly a better solution than a drum switch. But to go with that cheap switch you will need a new very expensive 3phase motor..... LOL!
> 
> You can get full shutoff with a wall switch. No power in = no power period.



All of his factory switches will control the VFD, no need for additional switches or shutoffs

Here's an overly complicated diagram of a v13 retrofit, which could be much simpler


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

That v13 diagram is for a motor with a brake. If you don't have a brake you don't even need the 24 power supply, relay etc. ,just a contactor to control master power to the vfd. Don't really need the fuses. The contactor can be switched via the Estop, although not recomended. A simple small toggle switch will work best. Then just the apron fwd/rev switch to the vfd


----------



## YYCHM (Jan 31, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I see.
> 
> Good list.
> 
> ...



Converting to 3PH VFD doesn't have to break the bank.  This was my basic outlay to convert my mill.

2 HP 3 PH motor $60 from Kijiji
4 HP VFD $75 from Amazon


----------



## Degen (Jan 31, 2022)

What most modern VFD do is also vary the voltage to keep current usage at the same level while the frequency changes, this is what allows the big ranges in rpm on the motor.


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

Degen said:


> What most modern VFD do is also vary the voltage to keep current usage at the same level while the frequency changes, this is what allows the big ranges in rpm on the motor.



Mine (a Teco L510) goes way beyond that. It's amazing really. The unit measures current flow, phasing, voltage, and inductive feedback to measure and refine the output to provide very precise motor control. With a VFD ready motor, 1000:1 speed control is achievable. It's actually an amazing device!


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

Lets try posting a video









						Darren Floen has shared 1 video with you!
					






					www.flickr.com


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## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

Is that video really choppy for anyone else?


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Lets try posting a video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm impressed @dfloen . That really showed the benefit of both higher speed and variable in one go. 

,


----------



## Susquatch (Jan 31, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Is that video really choppy for anyone else?


I had to download it to get a smooth video. My internet connection isn't fast enough for that kind of resolution.


----------



## Darren (Jan 31, 2022)

i have a few more i just took, to illustrate some points of a ok-ish vfd install.



20220131_213843 by Darren Floen, on Flickr

This is THE WORST material i could have picked for a demo. Its chromolly and its a bastard, but it illustrates that a fine adjustment can make a big difference in finish, chip control, etc



20220131_214042 by Darren Floen, on Flickr



20220131_214220 by Darren Floen, on Flickr



20220131_214258 by Darren Floen, on Flickr



20220131_214623 by Darren Floen, on Flickr

anyways, hope the videos work, i'm just messing around in the shop tonight, and thought i'd show why i like VFD's so much. I'll fire up the big lathe if someone wants, and show the other reason i like vfd's

Edit, alright, I talked me into it:



20220131_223823 by Darren Floen, on Flickr


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

dfloen said:


> i have a few more i just took, to illustrate some points of a ok-ish vfd install.
> 
> This is THE WORST material i could have picked for a demo. Its chromolly and its a bastard, but it illustrates that a fine adjustment can make a big difference in finish, chip control, etc
> 
> ...



Gesus @dfloen. Sometimes I can be a total idiot.

I already noticed I can fine tune finish by using the "on the fly" speed control of a VFD on my pulley drive mill. NICE!

But for cerebral deficiency reasons that only my wife understands (and reminds me regularly), I never really thought of the advantages of doing that on my lathe too. I even noticed you doing it in your first video and I actually commented on how cool it was. BUT...... that particular neural connection was totally blocked by my personal goal of achieving lower speed.

Your second set of videos overcame my blindness and drove the point home in a much better way. Suddenly I realize (and have fully assimilated) the idea that *speed adjustment ON THE FLY* (higher and lower) is a worthy goal all on its own on the lathe too!

THANK YOU SIR Darren!!! 

I think I'll move that lathe vfd project a bit further up my priority list.....


----------



## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

dfloen said:


> anyways, hope the videos work, i'm just messing around in the shop tonight, and thought i'd show why i like VFD's so much. I'll fire up the big lathe if someone wants, and show the other reason i like vfd's



Very nice Darren. A GREAT set of videos for illustrative purposes. I don't see how anyone could watch those and not be convinced of the merits of a VFD. 

A few questions:

Is that brake that keeps "popping" in and out automatic? If you use the direction controls of the VFD, does it still engage? Or does it just smoothly slow down and change direction? 

I noticed that you can really feel (hear) the inertia in that big lathe on your last video. Especially coasting along without any load. Did that happen before you installed the VFD too?


----------



## Gearhead88 (Feb 1, 2022)

You make a good salesman Darren , I think I'm gonna do this . After watching all your vid's It is obvious there are so many benefits .

I was looking both on ebay  and Amazon  at VFD's yesterday .

I need to make good decisions on what to buy  and then there is the motor , I'll need to find one that will fit this application

Thank's for the videos and all the advice you've provided , I'm inspired !

I have a Busy bee Knee mill that I use quite a bit and has been trouble free for nearly 18 years , I've toyed with the idea of using it for seat and guide work but it has limitations due to the belt drive and not being able to drop the speed down to a useable RPM .  I do use it for cylinder head work to do specific operations but due to the speed issue it is limited for now on what I can do with it.  This is a B048 , there is no reverse either . I can see a VFD conversion as an awesome update for this little mill . The pics are my home shop .











The above pic is ported Jeep 4.0 l head , converted to run oversize valves , I did up two of them , beehive springs for an LS chev , comp cams camshaft , 4.0 l block with a 4.2 crank , makining it a 4.7 l ( +.060" overbore) . This was around 2006 ish when I was a Jeep nut and in an off road club.

I work part time now at a Motorcycle shop , I gotta admit , I've been a lifelong motorcycle nut  , there's two of us doing performance Engine work , transmission , clutch and dyno tuning , there are other guys working there that do the general maintenance and repair work.


----------



## DPittman (Feb 1, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> You make a good salesman Darren , I think I'm gonna do this . After watching all your vid's It is obvious there are so many benefits .
> 
> I was looking both on ebay  and Amazon  at VFD's yesterday .
> 
> ...


FWIW 
I have a similar busybee mill that I converted to vfd and really like it. I used cheap Amazon vfds and so far all is good.


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## Darren (Feb 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Is that brake that keeps "popping" in and out automatic? If you use the direction controls of the VFD, does it still engage? Or does it just smoothly slow down and change direction?
> 
> I noticed that you can really feel (hear) the inertia in that big lathe on your last video. Especially coasting along without any load. Did that happen before you installed the VFD too?



Thats the brake. I need to fine tune it a bit more. Right now it comes on at 18hz, so the vfd is set for 20-120hz,  so when stopping the vfd brakes to 18 then the brake comes on. I'm going to play with it more when i have time. Its all easily tuneable, but this works pretty decent.

The big lathe has a big brake resistor and a electro brake as well, it just has 20 times the inertia to stop. That and the vfd will trip on decel sometimes, so i had to extend the braking time.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 1, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> hit me up with a pic of your mill rating plate


Here's what I have for now , this is the Label on the motor that came with the Mill , I can take some pics of the switch and the inside of that housing shortly.


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## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Thats the brake. I need to fine tune it a bit more. Right now it comes on at 18hz, so the vfd is set for 20-120hz,  so when stopping the vfd brakes to 18 then the brake comes on. I'm going to play with it more when i have time. Its all easily tuneable, but this works pretty decent.
> 
> The big lathe has a big brake resistor and a electro brake as well, it just has 20 times the inertia to stop. That and the vfd will trip on decel sometimes, so i had to extend the braking time.



Good stuff! My lathe has no brake but I'd like one. A braking resistor run with the VFD should do what I want.


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## Susquatch (Feb 1, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I've toyed with the idea of using it for seat and guide work but it has limitations due to the belt drive and not being able to drop the speed down to a useable RPM .



Yup, you will LOVE what a VFD can do for your mill. To be most effective you will also need a 3phase motor. 

I put one on my Hartford mill. The result was amazing....


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

Where are we at with getting the lathe running again?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Where are we at with getting the lathe running again?


I have both motors on the bench .
 I've got the electrical box taken apart to look at it on the bench .
I've checked out the contactors for continuity with a digital multimeter and they appear to be good.
I have more contactors coming from the land of China but it seems there is a big delay due to Chinese new year that wont get me those parts anytime soon .
I do have a new thermal overload relay , a pair of new capacitors and a new motor here that is possibly NFG ? , I don't mind having a few spare parts on hand
It turns out the meter I had in my motor home that measures capacitance doesn't measure up to the value of the start capacitor , it does measure lower value's and I've been able to test the run capacitors . 
Today , I'm going to work to get some parts for another project I have going and to get my other meter , which is a nice Snapon , I believe that one will work for measuring the start capacitors, it's a nice meter I almost had to take out a mortgage to buy it.
I have a confusing (go figure ) possible glitch with the way this machine was wired from new and the way a couple of wires were labeled and routed , It looks like the "L" & "N" wires are labelled weird and are crossed . It's a head scratcher ????
Yesterday , I had the forward / reverse lever , rod / linkage and associated parts off to tighten up the slop in it  , that was a success .

The VFD conversion is a great idea , it may have to wait , I have other fish to fry .

So , to answer your question , most of what is needed to fix it is here . I kinda wish I had another set of eyes and a second opinion , some day , yes it will run again .


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## Susquatch (Feb 4, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I have a confusing (go figure ) possible glitch with the way this machine was wired from new and the way a couple of wires were labeled and routed , It looks like the "L" & "N" wires are labelled weird and are crossed . It's a head scratcher ????



It isn't unusual for an idiot to reverse the line and neutral wires. This will actually work just fine unless or until there is a ground fault. 

It is an AC system so from a voltage perspective the two are constantly swapping positions anyway. 

For safety sake, you should check them thoroughly and correct them if necessary. 

It's at least conceivable that this might also explain your problems. If the neutral is grounded or even just bonded, and also reversed, this could feed current back to your sub-panel if it isn't wired correctly, or even all the way back to your main panel where the neutral is supposed to be grounded. 

Over the years, I've seen lots of off shore stuff reversed and I've met more than the odd electrician who didn't understand this either.


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## Susquatch (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Oh and the 'potentially mislabeled L & N wire, well the lathe will still operate, as it has been since you've purchased it.
> 
> I'd think if they were crossed the potential impact would be to just cause the two contactors to operate the opposite as intended, but I haven't look at the diagram yet so dont hold me to anything there.



Even without looking at the wiring, I doubt that the contactors would be affected. 

AC contactors would not know the difference and DC contactors would be powered by a rectified DC voltage that wouldn't know the difference either.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

isn't this a 240v machine? ie, no neutral, just 2 hots


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

It worked before, so who cares about the wiring diagram. Its the diagram thats wrong. Component testing, power feed testing, and bypass tests would have this thing diagnosed in minutes. Why confuse the issue?


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

The only point i'm trying to make is that regardless of the wiring diagram, the machine can easily be diagnosed. Theres a physical diagram right there. There's no electronics here, just some simple components to test, follow the power from the cord to the motor.  Verify that whichever motor is installed actually works. Hook power direct. Once verified, it can be used as a load for all further testing.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Just to clarify

 I'm the original owner ,   I did change the motor not long after it was new as a warranty item , it has run well and been a great lathe since then and there have been no other operators at all .
There have been no alterations to it , I bought it new in 2004 just like you see it.
The thermal overload relay has always been connected as you see it in the pictures.
The crossed and miss - labelled wires are something I noticed recently .
I have tested all three contactors with an ohmmeter for continuity and correct function .
I tested the run capacitor on the motor I've been using for the last 17 +  years , it's good .
I just got home from picking up my other meter and I'm going out to the garage to check the start capacitor .
I had the old motor apart yesterday and had a look at the centrifugal switch , also looked for burnt wires , any evidence of anything nasty or burned and I checked the continuity of the windings with an ohmmeter. I will repeat some of these tests again today with the meter i just went to work and picked up. and report back with the readings I get.
I am going to remove the two wires that the little yellow man marked with a sharpie , take pictures of them  to prove that they have *****wits wiring this junk.

I'll be back


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## Susquatch (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> isn't this a 240v machine? ie, no neutral, just 2 hots



I don't know about this particular machine. I'm just contributing ideas and food for thought. Many 240v machines have 2 hot wires and some have the neutral wire too. And some that have the neutral don't use it. There are lots of possible combinations. 

Again, just suggesting things that occur to me as possibilities to look at. They may or may not help.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't know about this particular machine. I'm just contributing ideas and food for thought. Many 240v machines have 2 hot wires and some have the neutral wire too. And some that have the neutral don't use it. There are lots of possible combinations.
> 
> Again, just suggesting things that occur to me as possibilities to look at. They may or may not help.


On this machine, instead of labelling L2 as L2, they left it as N. On this machine, there is no neutral. Probably a universal diagram because the machine was possibly offered in a 120v version as well. Either way, it doesn't matter.

In this case, measuring L1 to ground, or N (actually L2) to ground should each show 120v, and 240v L1 to N (L2)

Test for 120v, 240v where it should be, test for proper 24vac where it should be, and test the motor directly to 240v, and you'll find your problem.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> The only point i'm trying to make is that regardless of the wiring diagram, the machine can easily be diagnosed. Theres a physical diagram right there. There's no electronics here, just some simple components to test, follow the power from the cord to the motor.  Verify that whichever motor is installed actually works. Hook power direct. Once verified, it can be used as a load for all further testing.


That's why I had suggested running just on the 24volts  safe , you can operate it on off rev/fwd, bypass any external switches to make a simpler circuit then see what's happening and not happening, sometimes proving what works leads you to the problem rather than just blasting components with the shotgun till you find the right one.  Good luck Gearhead!


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> That's why I had suggested running just on the 24volts  safe , you can operate it on off rev/fwd, bypass any external switches to make a simpler circuit then see what's happening and not happening, sometimes proving what works leads you to the problem rather than just blasting components with the shotgun till you find the right one.  Good luck Gearhead!



yes, you can certainly directly power the transformer, and only the transformer to verify the control circuitry is working as intended. great idea, simple enough to do.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

I'm going to re-post some pictures drawings n' such so no one needs to go back and search for them .

I should add at this point  the L & N wires come off the terminal strip and run to the thermal overload relay , I have identified them incorrectly in my drawing , what the little yellow man has done when it was wired up at the factory is , he marked the opposite ends of those two wires  like this ..... the one end is "L ", the other end is marked "N" , both wires of that pair is marked like that. 









I have not included the motor wiring scheme on the second drawing .
Also the way this is wired , as it originally came  , the "E" stop only kills the directional control circuits , the power on lamp is illuminated and the transformer is powered up at all times as long as the machine is plugged in to the wall recepticle and the breaker is on .  This is why I always turn off the breaker or un plug the machine when it is not being used .


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> On this machine, instead of labelling L2 as L2, they left it as N. On this machine, there is no neutral. Probably a universal diagram because the machine was possibly offered in a 120v version as well. Either way, it doesn't matter.
> 
> In this case, measuring L1 to ground, or N (actually L2) to ground should each show 120v, and 240v L1 to N (L2)
> 
> Test for 120v, 240v where it should be, test for proper 24vac where it should be, and test the motor directly to 240v, and you'll find your problem.


Yes , I did all of those tests , weeks ago , several times , verifying that I have 120 v at both and to the contactors as well as the transformer , the transformer isn't all that accurate , it puts out around 30volts on the output side.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Yes , I did all of those tests , weeks ago , several times , verifying that I have 120 v at both and to the contactors as well as the transformer , the transformer isn't all that accurate , it puts out around 30volts on the output side.


30 volts shouldn't be a problem.

with the motor disconnected at the terminal strip, you can plug the machine in, and operate the controls, and check output voltage at the respective contactors


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Here's an overview of the electrical box .
Some of you will look , and wonder what the white wire is for , as part of the power feed in to the box ? , It's because I added 110 volt recepticle for a work light .
My milling machine , when I received it , the same day as the lathe back in 2004 called for a four wire plug , it has a 110 recepticle on the side for a work light , a power feed and the coolant pump is 110 volt too , my welder also has a 110 volt recepticle on the side of it , this is why all three machines have a four wire plug.





Here's the old motor ............





Here's the new motor ..........


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

as long as that neutral only goes to the receptacle, it shouldn't cause any issues, and is good to have.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> 30 volts shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> with the motor disconnected at the terminal strip, you can plug the machine in, and operate the controls, and check output voltage at the respective contactors


I've done that too . and will do it again , maybe tonight , I need to put it back together , It was not behaving when it was all assembled on the back of the machine , as though one of the contactors was buggered. It's all on the bench now and with an ohmmeter connected to the contactor high voltage terminals I can manually operate each contactor and it behaves as it should  , completing the circuit as it is designed.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> as long as that neutral only goes to the receptacle, it shouldn't cause any issues, and is good to have.


Yup , that' s how it's wired , I got the mill running first in 2004 and since that require four wires I thought , I'd wire the lathe the same and add the 110 outlet.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Something else that messes with me is the way the motor is connected , look at the two pictures I just posted , the older motor has those connecting strips and six terminals  .

I look at that all slack jawed . 

The new motor has four terminals


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

So that indicates that the control side circuit is behaving as it should, now we are getting somewhere.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

Test the caps on the old motor, and if good, install it back the way it originally was.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

I need to go out there and mess with it , I use my desk top in the house to post and read this .

 I need to test capacitors and motor windings again , next . 

At  the beginning of this whole debacle I bought a motor , installed it and all I got was a loud hum .

Now , could this be because I hooked up the motor incorrectly ? , It's entirely possible ,  the two motors have very different terminals as seen by the eyes of a guy who is in unfamiliar territory.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

yes, and thats the direction that i'm leaning, but need to verify.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

I was outside and took some measurements

Brand new start cap = 226.4 uF
Brand new run cap = 25.92 uF

Old motor Start cap = 107.9 uF ( seems afoul to me)
Old motor run cap = 24.41 uF
Old motor U1 - U2 = 1.0 ohm
Old motor V1 - V2 = 1.0 ohm

New motor start cap = 233.4 uF
New motor run cap = 35.26 uF
New motor U1 - U2 = 1.7 ohms


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

I'd change the caps on the old motor and toss it in, and try it. Hope you have a cold beer on hand.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I'd change the caps on the old motor and toss it in, and try it. Hope you have a cold beer on hand.


Okay , That was what I had planned on doing this evening and yes the shop beer fridge is stocked . I have some re-assembly to do first .

Something else I've noticed is , at the beginning of this I found some broken plastic schrapnel in the bottom of the cabinet , it came from the end of the terminal strip where all the connections are made , Yes it's damaged and has been that way for a very long time , probably since being built , since it was laying in a smear of leaked oil from the gearbox  . The quality of workmanship is low and the skill or perhaps the level of care is just not there with this stuff , e.g. , din rails crudely cut off all ragged , the wires that were marked all goofy , this thing seeps oil from several locations , crude , shitty pourus castings  .


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Look closely for the wiring mixup  that hopsing made.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 4, 2022)

Monday morning way too much sake on the weekend.
Good work on the measuring, things became a lot clearer, it can be tough sometimes when you don't have something to compare it too.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> Monday morning way too much sake on the weekend.
> Good work on the measuring, things became a lot clearer, it can be tough sometimes when you don't have something to compare it too.


And spending an entire career working on low voltage DC stuff , being nearly oblivious about AC motors . I’ve always had success working on Cranes , Snow Cats and all
Manner of road or off road vehicles


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## Tom O (Feb 4, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Look closely for the wiring mixup  that hopsing made.  View attachment 20649


Apparently Hop sing died in the eighty’s.




__





						hop sing from bonanza - Google Search
					





					www.google.ca


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

No beer for me

The electrical box is back on the lathe , the motor is still on the bench.

KA works and like before , it's sticky .

KM1 ( reverse ) clicks and I have 120 volts to all three motor terminals on the terminal strip.

KM2 is dead , no clicky clicky and nothing to the terminal strip.

On the bench , by actuating the contactors by toggling  the test lever , they all worked , as far as continuity is concerned .

On the machine , back in the box , under power ( I know , I broke the rules , shame on me ) only some of it works .


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## Andre23 (Feb 4, 2022)

Ad the same problem changed this parts work perfectly after


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## Andre23 (Feb 4, 2022)

You can bye this new for 22.00$


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

Andre23 said:


> Ad the same problem changed this parts work perfectly after



What is it?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Andre23 said:


> You can bye this new for 22.00$



Thats a thermal overload relay , the same as what I have on this lathe , I have one , in the box  , where it will stay , unless it turns out I need to change it .

The goal here ,  in addition to diagnosing and repairing the issue is to learn something , so me just throwing parts at it is counterproductive but I do have one if I need it .

I have some contactors coming that , I'm either going to use or put on the shelf for spares ,   a month ago I ordered and received three contactors that I thought were the right parts , but they were not , totally my fault for clicking the buy it now button before confirming that it was the correct part , those are shelf items now. The set that are the correct part have not shipped from the land of China yet due to it being a holiday there.

I have a motor too that I bought from Busy Bee , it's going on the shelf , if and when I confirm that the original motor is still good.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> DUDE what did I tell you about manually activating contactors? You can't rely on that method for testing circuits.
> 
> Ah I haven't looked but is that connection also reversed so that the fuse is after the contactor coil?


Sorry dad , It wasn't under power , simply sitting on the bench , making a continuity test to see if the contacts were intact .

The fuse is on the control / safety low voltage circuit . there isn't any circuit protection on the high voltage circuits other than the overload relay John just described


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

I'd like to have on hand , one of the switches that control forward and reverse , just to  have one whether I need one now or not .

I'm in the house for the night , I have a nine month old Mastiff pup that needs supervision and attention so the stuffing can remain safely inside the couch .

Tomorrow , I'll try what you suggest John.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

This switch ............................ , man , it's in a goofy spot , the cams are too .











I did manage to remove the rod and linkage / lever mechanism that controls the forward / reverse and make a modification that makes it more difficult to accidentally slam it from forward to reverse.  There's a notch machined into the support  bracket which bolts to the apron , I machined the notch in the part which rotates to make a ramp so the lever is engaged more solidly  when positioned , there is a spring to hold it but the notch , combined with a bit of physical wear was making the lever a bit sloppy and not very precise , it's solid now , I like it.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

Switch testing can be looked at the same as contactor testing. They both have contacts which are usually the mode of failure. They can be bypassed with jumpers . If it works, theres your problem.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Switch testing can be looked at the same as contactor testing. They both have contacts which are usually the mode of failure. They can be bypassed with jumpers . If it works, theres your problem.


I was testing them with my ohmmeter where the wires connect to the terminal strip , I've done it a couple of times and again today when I put the switches back in the spot where they are mounted  , just to confirm they were doing what they are supposed to do. There are notes  on the hand drawn schematic that shows the low voltage control circuits , showing which terminals make contact in which position .

I should figure out how to get a spare one , it'd be good to have around.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

Every time I work on this P.O.S. , my hands smell like that nasty Chineez oily skanky goo that everything they send over here is coated in


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

A set of contacts can test fine OHM wise, but be pitted and not capable of passing enough current to energize the load....same way as automotive stuff.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> A set of contacts can test fine OHM wise, but be pitted and not capable of passing enough current to energize the load....same way as automotive stuff.


If only Busy Bee stocked some of these , of course I already know the response I'll get from the local store , same old ...... "we can not stock parts for a machine this old"


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

Jumper wires will do the same. Bypass testing is just that, bypassing the component for testing purposes. contactors just join wires together.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I prefer a continuity test for this... and it is very unlikely that a contacts that pass a continuity test will not pass enough current at 30v to energize a coil.  The pickup voltage is far less than that IIRC


I have seen it hundreds of times in my trade.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have seen it hundreds of times in my trade.


What i will do is , tomorrow , I'll make up a set of jumper wires and bypass the switch  by removing it from the circuit  and jumping the terminals to select a direction .  

I sure wish I had a few contactors , those are weeks away . woooooo Chineez new year


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> But so as to not confuse this thread further I'm done with commenting further on this thread.



???????


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Yeah I couldn't help but jump back in because I've also been helping via DMs. Thanks for the reminder. I'm unwatching this thread now



No.... don't do that LOL...  Just teasing you.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

The machine is plugged into a wall outlet with a breaker, which can act act a switch. So, a bypass test can be performed by moving the wires from the input of the contactor to the output side, like a binding post. 

Years ago, i got screwed by a bad relay. I swapped a 5.0 Ford into a 65 Falcon. The main relay failed during the swap. It got knocked around a bit.....but it tested 0 Ohms (good, right?), and passed enough current to light up a test light. It would not pass enough current to power up the ECM though. Made me look like an idiot for several hours while several of my customer's friends were there for the big moment. It wa looking grim when i couldn't get er to bark up, but after thinking a bit, I did a quick bypass test and the engine lit right up and i looked like a hero LOL


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I prefer a continuity test for this... and it is very unlikely that a contacts that pass a continuity test will not pass enough current at 30v to energize a coil.  The pickup voltage is far less than that IIRC



We've established that the control side is working. I'm talking about line voltage side. Sorry about the confusion


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I swapped a 5.0 Ford into a 65 Falcon.



A 5.0 what?  I had a 61 Falcon with a 6 cylinder as my first car LOL..  Had no floor boards left under the driver's side. I fiber glassed that in.  That thing would change lanes by itself on the hwy when a semi passed you


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## PeterT (Feb 4, 2022)

Not sure if your lathe is similar but I'll volunteer my 14x40 story FWIW. It was similarly fussy on the FWD/REV lever. I'm no so sure it wear induced or never quite set up right to begin with. When I examine the detent holes the plunger ball goes into, I think it was drilled by the same chimp that hand drilled the other holes. It look eyeballed, not engineered. Now why they have a gronk size lever handle & heavy casting & meaty bar & thick cam... all to actuate a lightly spring contact switched is beyond me. But I digress. As I was futzing around I remember I lost contact on one of the switches & the other was going just out of detente. . Back to the drawing board. There was a bit of play in the detent, a bit in the cam, a bit in how the contact switch was mounted. Some fiddling around & it functions again.  Anyhoo, reason I mention is maybe if its checking out on the bench but not in-situ on the lathe has something to do with setup?

_I did manage to remove the rod and linkage / lever mechanism that controls the forward / reverse and make a modification that makes it more difficult to accidentally slam it from forward to reverse. There's a notch machined into the support bracket which bolts to the apron , I machined the notch in the part which rotates to make a ramp so the lever is engaged more solidly when positioned , there is a spring to hold it but the notch , combined with a bit of physical wear was making the lever a bit sloppy and not very precise , it's solid now , I like it._


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 4, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Not sure if your lathe is similar but I'll volunteer my 14x40 story FWIW. It was similarly fussy on the FWD/REV lever. I'm no so sure it wear induced or never quite set up right to begin with. When I examine the detent holes the plunger ball goes into, I think it was drilled by the same chimp that hand drilled the other holes. It look eyeballed, not engineered. Now why they have a gronk size lever handle & heavy casting & meaty bar & thick cam... all to actuate a lightly spring contact switched is beyond me. But I digress. As I was futzing around I remember I lost contact on one of the switches & the other was going just out of detente. . Back to the drawing board. There was a bit of play in the detent, a bit in the cam, a bit in how the contact switch was mounted. Some fiddling around & it functions again.  Anyhoo, reason I mention is maybe if its checking out on the bench but not in-situ on the lathe has something to do with setup?
> 
> _I did manage to remove the rod and linkage / lever mechanism that controls the forward / reverse and make a modification that makes it more difficult to accidentally slam it from forward to reverse. There's a notch machined into the support bracket which bolts to the apron , I machined the notch in the part which rotates to make a ramp so the lever is engaged more solidly when positioned , there is a spring to hold it but the notch , combined with a bit of physical wear was making the lever a bit sloppy and not very precise , it's solid now , I like it._


I made sure , with my meter after putting the switches back up in their hiding place to operate them several times while watching my ohmmeter . 
I gotta say , the switches and cams are in a really bad spot on this one , hidden behind the quick change gearbox casting , they couldn't have made access any more difficult  if they tried . 
The picture you posted , I only wish it was a nice as that.


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## Darren (Feb 4, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> A 5.0 what?  I had a 61 Falcon with a 6 cylinder as my first car LOL..  Had no floor boards left under the driver's side. I fiber glassed that in.  That thing would change lanes by itself on the hwy when a semi passed you


 a 90ish 5.0 5spd into a 65 Falcon, owner did the mechanical, I wired it


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

dfloen said:


> a 90ish 5.0 5spd into a 65 Falcon, owner did the mechanical, I wired it


You talking 500 cubic inch?


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## RobinHood (Feb 4, 2022)

I’ve been sitting on the sidelines of this thread without commenting as lots of good help/advice has been given already.

One thing that I have learned the hard way: never assume anything. Just because a relay works on the bench does not mean that it is good. The coil could test fine, but could be too weak when the relay is installed in a different orientation. Also, the fastening mechanism can distort the body and prevent proper function.

So, here is what I do with them (the quality ones that can be disassembled; the others just get binned): take the whole thing apart. Clean thoroughly, clean all contacts to remove any pitting and make sure the surfaces mate properly. Adjust if required. Check all springs. Reassemble. Power the coil. Make sure the contacts close. Now tap the relay body to make sure the contacts stay closed. If you get buzzing, the coil is bad. Replace the coil.

This is the best way that I have found to make sure there are no surprises with used relays.


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## YYCHM (Feb 4, 2022)

Drum switch and be done with it.


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Switch testing can be looked at the same as contactor testing. They both have contacts which are usually the mode of failure. They can be bypassed with jumpers . If it works, theres your problem.



Ive tried to just read and insert only the odd suggestion or comment lest @Gearhead88 get input overload. I confess that I'd be overloaded if I were him. 

But this suggestion of yours is solid gold in my opinion. In my 50+ years of diagnosing and repairing electrical equipment, I have come to conclude that about 95% of the failures are the result of connection problems. My favorite advice to people diagnosing electrical devices is always "Connections, connections, connections - check the connections." I would be willing to bet I already said that here earlier. But maybe not. There are a lot of very capable people already trying to help.

As you suggest, one of the easiest and most convenient ways to check a connection is with a jumper wire and/or continuity tester. 

This is also a convenient place to add an observation. I think @Gearhead88's approach to this is admirable - albeit painfully slow. He doesn't just want to do what he is told. He wants to understand it first so he can learn something in the process. I happen to admire that trait because I can relate to it. I am a very firm believer in that old saying. "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day - teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". 

Switches, contactors, relays, wiring bulkheads, jumpers and screws etc are all connectors. When the smoke clears, I'll happily provide beer for everyone if it turns out that this problem wasn't a connector. Oh WTF, the beer is all on me regardless.


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I have seen it hundreds of times in my trade.



Me too.

A pitted contact can test just fine with a continuity tester but as soon as the current starts to flow, the low resistance in the pitted contact causes heat to build and suddenly it doesn't flow current anymore. I agree with @RobinHood. It's easy to check and faster to clean them than replace them. That said, they usually pit for a reason and sometimes it's better to replace them.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 5, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I'd like to have on hand , one of the switches that control forward and reverse , just to  have one whether I need one now or not .



Princess sells these ones looks similar to the one on my lathe.


			https://www.princessauto.com/en/1-hp-electric-motor-reversing-switch/product/PA0008000790
		

this one is a little bigger


			https://www.princessauto.com/en/2-hp-electric-motor-reversing-switch/product/PA0008078693


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> I prefer a continuity test for this... and it is very unlikely that a contacts that pass a continuity test will not pass enough current at 30v to energize a coil.  The pickup voltage is far less than that IIRC



I usually prefer a jumper. I'm not really fond of those cheap bulb type continuity testers. Based on most of what you say, I'll bet you don't mean that kind either. You probably mean an ohmeter. An ohmeter is infinitely better because it will give you much more than a go-no-go evaluation. It will give you a qualitative test of the connection quality. That said, a jumper will test the circuit under load which is better still. 

You are of course correct - as I said earlier I believe 95% of such problems are connections and I further believe that 95% of those connection problems can be found with an ohmeter. I don't even own one of those bulb/beep testers anymore.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 5, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Me too.
> 
> A pitted contact can test just fine with a continuity tester but as soon as the current starts to flow, the low resistance in the pitted contact causes heat to build and suddenly it doesn't flow current anymore. I agree with @RobinHood. It's easy to check and faster to clean them than replace them. That said, they usually pit for a reason and sometimes it's better to replace them.


Its a snowball effect over time corrosion builds up less surface area for the current to flow, more flow throw the existing good mating surfaces causing more heat causing arcing and pitting causing less surface area again until eventually they just melt away.
We now know the start capacitor is bad so as it was going it could cause higher current draw on start up causing more heat through the contactors accelerating this effect so Gearhead having the contactors soon will give him the option to change one or change all.
I agree with you that wiring is a major cause of problems but having been on both the reporting side and now being involved in some root cause analysis  sometimes wiring gets the blame when its really someone not wanting to admit to a simpler problem or made it up to cover something else or when they really didn't find the problem or it went away or even computer glitches sometimes its a catch all for problems. .
When I started out I fixed my parents tv it was the first tv I ever worked on it would get a white line sometimes so I had gotten schematics, meter scope everything ready took it apart flipped it upside down looked at the board, saw 4 or 5 broken solder connections on the board for the vertical which I had looked at earlier in the schematic.  It was fixed in the time it took to heat up the soldering iron still works today 35 years later, I was happy it was fixed but my mind was very disappointed I thought the problem is just a connection that's it? no metering  no analyzing no scoping that's the fun part  and I am still disappointed when its just a broken wire or a bad connection, rather than something I changed after troubleshooting especially if its tough.   But it didn't take long to realize that these "connections" where going to make me money especially when others failed ahead of you.
Think of all those great projects Gearheads gonna do once he gets through this blip with this lathe he'll have another 20 or 40 more  years out of it.


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> Its a snowball effect over time corrosion builds up less surface area for the current to flow, more flow throw the existing good mating surfaces causing more heat causing arcing and pitting causing less surface area again until eventually they just melt away.
> We now know the start capacitor is bad so as it was going it could cause higher current draw on start up causing more heat through the contactors accelerating this effect so Gearhead having the contactors soon will give him the option to change one or change all.
> I agree with you that wiring is a major cause of problems but having been on both the reporting side and now being involved in some root cause analysis  sometimes wiring gets the blame when its really someone not wanting to admit to a simpler problem or made it up to cover something else or when they really didn't find the problem or it went away or even computer glitches sometimes its a catch all for problems. .
> When I started out I fixed my parents tv it was the first tv I ever worked on it would get a white line sometimes so I had gotten schematics, meter scope everything ready took it apart flipped it upside down looked at the board, saw 4 or 5 broken solder connections on the board for the vertical which I had looked at earlier in the schematic.  It was fixed in the time it took to heat up the soldering iron still works today 35 years later, I was happy it was fixed but my mind was very disappointed I thought the problem is just a connection that's it? no metering  no analyzing no scoping that's the fun part  and I am still disappointed when its just a broken wire or a bad connection, rather than something I changed after troubleshooting especially if its tough.   But it didn't take long to realize that these "connections" where going to make me money especially when others failed ahead of you.
> Think of all those great projects Gearheads gonna do once he gets through this blip with this lathe he'll have another 20 or 40 more  years out of it.



Ya, it is amazing isn't it!

For a big chunk of the early part of my career I did warranty parts analysis and designed and built test equipment to do repair analysis and diagnostics in automobiles. Remember those giant diagnostic testers the car dealers and auto repair shops had? I prolly designed half of them or at least developed the logic and circuitry they used internally.

They were all crap! 

Why crap? Because stupid me assumed the problem was always a complicated part. After all, the mechanics would never overlook a simple problem! Right! Of course they did. They are paid to fix it fast so on goes the analyzer. Usually the problem isn't complicated. Usually it's a basic part or..... a connection. 

In fairness, those analysers did do a fairly decent job of testing numerous components and systems all at once. They were great for tune-ups. And they absolutely did convince the customer that they were getting their money's worth at the shops that used one...... Lol! 

So I'll add to my "connections connections connections - check the connections" advice. Let's call that advice #1. 

Advice #2 would be: "If you don't know how it works, don't assume that what you don't understand is what is broken."

If I had a nickel for every computer, electronic control, microcontroller, black box, and gizmo that got replaced just because somebody didn't know how it worked, I'd be a billionaire today. 

And while Im at it, advice #3 would be: "Be very wary of anecdotal evidence." Everybody and their mother has a story to tell about what was wrong with their dads car. So that's obviously what is wrong with mine too. Ya, some problems do tend to be common problems. And if it looks like an oil leak, it's probably an oil leak. But it's still good to be very wary of anecdotal evidence because we are all humans - we survived because we learned to run when something growls in the bushes. He who hesitates dies. So we are quick to blame whatever anecdote shows up first. 

Let me conclude by observing that you have/had a great job if you do a lot of forensic root cause work. It's a very rewarding occupation. There are others on this forum that share that joy with us. Perhaps it is connected somehow to the joy of machining and finding that beautiful part that was hiding in that useless chuck of metal.....


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## PeterT (Feb 5, 2022)

Nobody commented on his capacitors. What do you guys make of the range? I re-arranged but kept his titles. Just confirming you have 3 of each now? The old motor start cap is obviously oddball. Was that replicated on another measurement or it is what it is? How does one analyze this? Value should lie within a certain tolerance I assume? is there a +/- stated on the capacitors or some replacement catalog data? Did you discharge them all like that video showed?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 5, 2022)

A couple of weeks ago I tried taking one of my contactors apart to get a look inside and stopped part way through , at that point I realized that further disassembly put the part at risk of being damaged or destroyed. These dinky little parts are throw away , non serviceable items , now , getting them is another entirely different challenge as I've discovered. I have no idea when I will be getting the set I ordered on the 28th of January , from what I am seeing on my ebay purchase history page is  , the seller is away until Feb 7 , so when he sobers up and gets back to the office to fill all the orders placed  over the two weeks he had off , that puts my delivery date well into March.  The fact that Busy Bee has no parts sends a clear message as to where they stand on the customer service side , piss poor !!!

I should respond to the comment about how long this is taking.

I have lots of other things going on that eat up time , there's no doubt , my participation on this forum burns lots of it , when I sit down at my computer , the first thing I usually do is look at this forum  . I feel welcome here , it's a great group of people and I'll be paying up to get a premium membership .

Other stuff I have going on , is often prioritized above the ongoing lathe issue , even though the end is near and a solution might be soon . I work on it when I have time and If I am not feeling up to it I do other things ...............

Like this ...................

I Started on this project last month , there has been a great deal of progress so far and yesterday I got the remaining parts needed to finish it.




This one is a 1978 74 cubic inch Shovelhead
The cylinders have been painted ,  bored & honed to size , rings fit .
The rods are almost done , the bores on the big end have been honed straight again , they're round and honed to the the target dimension to accept oversized rollers .
I need to press in the bushings on the small end and hone those to the correct clearance and then I will be weighing some of the parts , both rotating & reciprocating , doing some math and then balancing the flywheels , it's labour intensive but worth it .
I have the crank cases cleaned , threads chased , mating surfaces prepped , the roller bearing main on the right side has been lapped to a custom fit with oversize rollers.
The crankshaft , once it has been balanced needs to be assembled , trued and installed into the crankcases.
The heads have been cleaned , bead blasted , the valves have been ground as well as the seats , ground to three angles , those need to be assembled with the new springs I just got yesterday .
Then there's the oil pump cam chest and top end that needs to be assembled . The rocker arms have had new bushings pressed in and sized .
All of this is done lovingly , each piece massaged , hand fit and  measured to ensure it is right .



The lathe ?

pppppfffffff , I might work on it a bit today , or tomorrow or monday , tuesday its back to work .

Oh I almost forgot I have nine month old 100 lb puppy thats very mischievious and full of energy , she's my chief of security , in training .

So you see , I do have a full dance card


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## YYCHM (Feb 5, 2022)

What are you rebuilding?  Is that a motor cycle engine?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 5, 2022)

PeterT said:


> Nobody commented on his capacitors. What do you guys make of the range? I re-arranged but kept his titles. Just confirming you have 3 of each now? The old motor start cap is obviously oddball. Was that replicated on another measurement or it is what it is? How does one analyze this? Value should lie within a certain tolerance I assume? is there a +/- stated on the capacitors or some replacement catalog data? Did you discharge them all like that video showed?


The old motor  - The start capacitor measured way low , it's in the garbage now , I installed a new one I got on Amazon , the run capacitor measured up ok but had some cracked insulation on the wires , that's in the trash too , I bought both when I placed the order .
The windings had 1 ohm of resistance measured across U1 & U2.
I had the old motor apart to look for evidence of damage or burned wires etc.

Something that bugs me about these motors is the terminals , knowing almost nothing about AC electric motors , what messes with me is ,the old motor has six terminals  & the new one has four.

The new motor  - the capacitors measured up to be very close to the same as what is printed on the outside of them so I'm calling them good .
The windings also appeared to be good .


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 5, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What are you rebuilding?  Is that a motor cycle engine?


Yup , at home , I do a handful of them for my pals every year , at work I do them every day .

Ya wanna buy one ? I have an extra one for sale or trade for a working lathe .

2013 -  103 cubic inch


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## Susquatch (Feb 5, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> Something that bugs me about these motors is the terminals , knowing almost nothing about AC electric motors , what messes with me is ,the old motor has six terminals & the new one has four.



Again, I'm just a bystander.

If I'm not mistaken, your new motor has three of the 6 wires tied together with shunts as one. That's a total of 4 wires just like your old one......

Edit - don't forget that aftermarket motor manufacturers don't like making a gazillion different motors for every possible replacement application. So motors are often made to run on different voltages etc so the same motor can be used in a few different applications. They typically do this with a connection system like yours has. The shunts are moveable. I believe (but didn't check) that both @dfloen & @TorontoBuilder covered that earlier. You just need to make sure it's both compatible and also configured to operate correctly in your system.


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## Degen (Feb 6, 2022)

@Gearhead88 

Your motor is likely similar to the one I had on my mill, both times (in about 20years) I had troubles with operation was the terminals on the motor, the last being the connector block burned up for a contactor or two.  A supplier (motor rewind shop) I know from my elevator days supplied me with a used old block no charge that fit the machine (odd chinese size) that he happened to have in his shop (BTW this was the final straw that started the switch to VFD and progression to CNC conversion last spring).

I have a functioning 220V single phase 2hp motor that I'm willing to part with for a price (I'm in the GTA, pm me if you are interested, you have first choice, others well....second) as it helps pay for other upgrades.  Keep what you need get rid of the rest (right ).

I've only kept it, just to ensure the VFD and new motor was doing what I wanted (its actually performing a lot better than expected considering the motor is a non VFD rated motor, the motor and vfd where both supplied by the same shop which is why I trusted their selection and recommendation, sometimes you pay extra for peace of mind.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 6, 2022)

Degen said:


> @Gearhead88
> 
> Your motor is likely similar to the one I had on my mill, both times (in about 20years) I had troubles with operation was the terminals on the motor, the last being the connector block burned up for a contactor or two.  A supplier (motor rewind shop) I know from my elevator days supplied me with a used old block no charge that fit the machine (odd chinese size) that he happened to have in his shop (BTW this was the final straw that started the switch to VFD and progression to CNC conversion last spring).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the offer , My mill has been  trouble free since I bought it in 2004 ,  at times , it sits for months without me using it , other times I use it lots . I do use it enough to justify having it , I doubt I will wear it out in my life time . I would like to do the VFD conversion and make it more versatile , down the road when I can . I'm not sure your motor is of any use to me .

I would like to put DRO's on both these machines at some point too , that's on the second or third page of my wish list.

The lathe will run again soon , I think the party in China is winding down , I got an email , to "not worry" they will ship my contactors soon  , I only ordered them and paid for them Jan 28 .


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 6, 2022)

Taking a short break from shop time / engine building .......................

I know some of you have had it with  me n' this  Lathe BS ......... BUT .......................


I was thinking

My milling machine has a motor starter on it , this one








I'm sensing  that some of you would like me to leave all the hooflungpoo electrics intact  , and are opposed to the directional switch idea , stay with me here ..........



			https://www.princessauto.com/en/2-hp-electric-motor-reversing-switch/product/PA0008078693
		


What if I used the starter above , I can get that on Amazon and then , buy a drum switch at Princess auto   , the combination of the two should buy me the  thermal overload safety that some of you say I won't have with just the drum switch .

Just askin .................................

Thoughts  ???

I want to know if this will work or is it a dumb Idea ? .

Tell the truth , feelings have already been hurt .

I can make this happen and do it quickly too , if it's a reasonable way to get this P.O.S. running again .


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## Darren (Feb 6, 2022)

You don't want or need a drum switch. You won't like it after having apron mounted switching either. Fix what's broken with yours.

The drum switch idea is like ripping out a Harley engine and replacing it with a Briggs


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 6, 2022)

_waiting for shit from China is pissing me off_


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## Darren (Feb 6, 2022)

I hear ya man. I hate waiting


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 6, 2022)

My lathe runs so nice when it runs , there’s two crappy lathes at work that are beat  to death


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## YYCHM (Feb 6, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> _waiting for shit from China is pissing me off_



Tell me about it.  I've got one that's estimated for 21 Feb - 17 Mar, and another one that has been stalled in Canada somewhere for a week now


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## YYCHM (Feb 6, 2022)

dfloen said:


> You don't want or need a drum switch. You won't like it after having apron mounted switching either. Fix what's broken with yours.
> 
> The drum switch idea is like ripping out a Harley engine and replacing it with a Briggs



Why all the resistance to a drum switch?  My 220V single phase 2HP mill had one before my VFD upgrade.  My 120V 1/2HP  lathe has one.  Simple, mechanical, can't go wrong.


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## Darren (Feb 6, 2022)

Mostly it's a safety issue.  Plus his has a better system already there. It just needs to be diagnosed.


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## YYCHM (Feb 6, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Mostly it's a safety issue.  Plus his has a better system already there. It just needs to be diagnosed.



Safety in what way?


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## Darren (Feb 6, 2022)

A drum switch has no provisions for thermal overload, safety during power failure (could have unintentional start), cannot work with apron control,  inconvenient compared to what he has now, and is not as robust.

Why don't the manufacturer's just put in drum switches instead of contactors? 

A drum switch would work., yes. But in my opinion it is far better to fix what  is there. Besides, it's looking like a bad capacitor. Why are we installing a drum switch to fix a bad cap?


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## YYCHM (Feb 6, 2022)

dfloen said:


> and is not as robust.


??????


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## Darren (Feb 6, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> ??????


The switching duty cycle of a contactor is many times higher than a drum switch. Drum switches suffer from contact welding closed, whereas contactors usually fail open. Much safer, obviously.

Also, the off position of a drum switch is not a positive stop. In an emergency this could be a real issue. It would be wise to install a NC E-stop button, rated for the load, in L1 before the drum switch, in a convenient location, but by the time you do that, and incorporate all the other missing safeties, you are into contactor territory....


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 10, 2022)

dfloen said:


> Mostly it's a safety issue.  Plus his has a better system already there. It just needs to be diagnosed.


It is diagnosed , I knew this weeks ago when I bought capacitors  , it's the contactor for forward that is stopping me from having a working machine , KA contactor is sticky too .

 The original motor is back in it with new capacitors . It runs beautiful in reverse , forward is dead. 

I ordered and paid for three new contactors two weeks ago  , they still have not shipped them from china  ............ I'm fff'n pissed !! .


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## Darren (Feb 10, 2022)

you could switch the forward and reverse contactors so that it runs in forward in the meantime.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 10, 2022)

If I was ever a first hand witness to an arc flash incident I would rather it be in an enclosed cabinet where I had some protection from it.  rather than holding it in my hand.   We are required at work to wear arc flash protection whenever we are doing live troubleshooting on equipment like this so there is a serious amount of energy there.


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## YYCHM (Feb 10, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I ordered and paid for three new contactors two weeks ago  , they still have not shipped them from china  ............ I'm fff'n pissed !! .



Have you tried sourcing the contactors locally?


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 10, 2022)

dfloen said:


> you could switch the forward and reverse contactors so that it runs in forward in the meantime.


That might happen 

Luckily ,  I have not needed to use it since it went on the fritz.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 10, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Have you tried sourcing the contactors locally?


I went to Ecol Electric , B& E electronics  , no one knew where to get exact replacements or where I might find some , which led to me ordering off of ebay . 

I buy lots of stuff on ebay , usually it's not from China and wait times are reasonable. 

Busy Bee should be better at customer service , I'm not sure if or when they will learn this .

 I am product loyal and if a store or business treats me well and displays professionalism they earn my loyalty . Piss me off , I go some where else .


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 10, 2022)

I'll be keeping spare parts on the shelf in the future.


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## Darren (Feb 10, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I went to Ecol Electric , B& E electronics  , no one knew where to get exact replacements or where I might find some , which led to me ordering off of ebay .
> 
> I buy lots of stuff on ebay , usually it's not from China and wait times are reasonable.
> 
> ...





			https://www.ebay.ca/sch/mroparts/m.html?_trkparms=folent%3Amroparts%7Cfolenttp%3A1&_trksid=p3542580.m47492.l71970
		


local guy i mentioned earlier. He has everything


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## RobinHood (Feb 10, 2022)

Take the faulty contactor out of the machine and go to Civic Recycling here in Calagary.





__





						Civic Recycling | Canada's #1 Circuit Breaker Specialists
					

New & reconditioned circuit breakers. Shop online 24/7. Worldwide shipping. Wholesale electrical equipment.




					civicrecycling.com
				




They have always been able to help me with obsolete / obscure stuff. If they have a comparable contactor, it will be a better quality one to boot.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 11, 2022)

Here's a gut shot of the Busy Bee Lathe that replaces the CT043 .

Very similar , they've added a couple of circuit breakers , the transformer looks smaller , it is a bit more tidy , like whoever wired it actually gives a shit ,other than that it is the same.

For sure the contactors are the same as mine.

I was at BBT today trying to reason with them about having parts available , explaining , that if a customer who has bought a new lathe from  them encounters a component failure , they are out of luck if the current "customer support" arrangement remains the same . I also discussed loyalty , trust and earning the business of repeat customers.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 11, 2022)

I should add another picture , to show the "anti drum switch'ers "

While I was at BBT today I noticed they had received a new mill , very similar to the B048 I have .
There are some differences , it has reverse now , It has a "E" stop button  feature on the motor start controls  AND a drum switch to select forward or reverse and They've dropped the power feed. Something it's always had is the thermal overload feature as part of the motor start. 

The mill I have now (B048)  has a motor start control with thermal overload , it only has a forward , there is no reverse ,.

It appears , on the newer version of my mill , they have added a drum switch and the "E" stop button , this is pretty much what I described as a possible fix to eliminate all the BS wiring / contactors and complexity on my CT 043 Lathe .............................. not that I'm going to do any of that .

Keepin it stock is the plan , which goes against what I do with almost everything , from chainsaws to motorcycles .

You "anti drum switchers" gotta be more flexible


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## RobinHood (Feb 11, 2022)

If you run a drum switch WITH a magnetic motor contactor with overload protection, the resulting circuit is totally safe (as long as it is wired correctly). The drum switch just controls motor direction of rotation. The contactor protects the motor and PREVENTS an immediate restart of the motor after a power interruption as the control circuit will have unlatched during the power break - which is really the key and very much desired for safety.

Running ONLY a drum switch will not give you the power fault protection.


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## combustable herbage (Feb 12, 2022)

Gearhead88 said:


> I should add another picture , to show the "anti drum switch'ers "
> 
> While I was at BBT today I noticed they had received a new mill , very similar to the B048 I have .
> There are some differences , it has reverse now , It has a "E" stop button  feature on the motor start controls  AND a drum switch to select forward or reverse and They've dropped the power feed. Something it's always had is the thermal overload feature as part of the motor start.
> ...


We live in a civilized society! heck save your money skip the drum switch just touch the wires together when you want to use it.
The drum switch is fine but you need a contactor to carry the load as Robinhood has mentioned.   The new mill you saw is going to have the same controls (hopefully improved) the same type of contactors as your lathe.  Its cheap and dirty controls which allows the best profit margin giving us a useable but sometimes frustrating product.


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## Gearhead88 (Feb 12, 2022)

It looks like I'm getting somewhere with Busy Bee Tools , after going in and asking again , the store here was able to confirm they have contactors in Ontario .

The contactors I bought and paid for two weeks ago on ebay ? , I received confirmation that they shipped yesterday !  , estimated to be delivered the first week of May 

I'll be putting some on the shelf as backup , and a few more items too so I don't have to go through this again .


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## YYCHM (Feb 12, 2022)

Ya, I'm having issues with stuff coming out of China these days as well.  A package claimed to be in Canada has been stalled somewhere for two weeks now


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## Tom O (Feb 12, 2022)

combustable herbage said:


> We live in a civilized society! heck save your money skip the drum switch just touch the wires together when you want to use it.


IGOR THROW THE SWITCH!


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## Degen (Feb 13, 2022)

I have a rotary switch on my lathe from the start, was added prior to me buying it.  I added a second  on of switch to start it.

Why you may ask?  Simple it is easy to over shoot the stop and throw trhe motor into the opposite direction while running.  This is a bad thing.... motors really don't like that which makes bad things happen.

Interlocked switches prevent this from happening.


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## terry_g (Feb 13, 2022)

I had a drum switch on my 1978 Southbend lathe.I actually liked it. 
Mine was single phase. You can move the drum switch to the opposite 
direction while the lathe is running and it has no effect. Changing rotation 
with a single phase motor is done with the starter windings, The centrifugal 
switch disconnects the starter windings once the motor is up to speed.


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## YYCHM (Feb 13, 2022)

terry_g said:


> I had a drum switch on my 1978 Southbend lathe.I actually liked it.
> Mine was single phase. You can move the drum switch to the opposite
> direction while the lathe is running and it has no effect. Changing rotation
> with a single phase motor is done with the starter windings, The centrifugal
> switch disconnects the starter windings once the motor is up to speed.



Ha.... I had to try that.  You're right it doesn't change directions.


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## Degen (Feb 13, 2022)

Honest it was that way when I got it.


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## Degen (Feb 13, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Ya, I'm having issues with stuff coming out of China these days as well.  A package claimed to be in Canada has been stalled somewhere for two weeks now


The delay is in sorting in BC, Canada.  It goes through a private firm that does the final posting.


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## Darren (Feb 13, 2022)

I recently ordered a whole bunch of hardware from Amazon. My set screw, and shcs stock has been lacking in the Metric department, and Amazon had good pricing. I was shocked when some arrived in 2 days, and the rest within a week. Most from China. The stuff from China beat the stuff from Toronto to my door.


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## PeterT (Feb 13, 2022)

For my smallish metric stuff I use Regans store on Ebay quite often. He must have a garage depot in Canada because it arrives very quick & I'm pretty sure it has CDN stamp on it. I don't want to say always but that might be related to stock or whatever obscure things I ordered. I also noticed his stainless SHCS are nicer than others I've bought. 









						Regan s Store | eBay Stores
					





					www.ebay.ca


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## Darren (Feb 13, 2022)

Thank you @PeterT i will look into it. Can never have enough hardware.


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## Tom O (Feb 14, 2022)

It looks like the things in Home Depot in their screw/hardware section


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## Capt Hook (Mar 3, 2022)

Hi all. If you're looking for a loooooong discussion of the wiring in a CT043 lathe here's a link.









						Single Phase Double Capacitation Induction Motor, YL90L-4,  CT043 Craftex Lathe - Motor Wiring and Control
					

And an interesting thought is to just disconnect the starting capacitor and see what happens with a no-load connected start attempt. If it starts and then runs OK, you will know it is a start witch problem.  As per my post #24 in Dec !  ;)  This thread is taking on a life of its own!




					forum.allaboutcircuits.com
				




I bought a replacement motor, and am ready to hook it up. Does anyone have a photo of the physical hookup of the CT043 or CX707 wire hookup? Here's the pic of my new motor. Many Thanks.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 5, 2022)

Capt Hook said:


> Hi all. If you're looking for a loooooong discussion of the wiring in a CT043 lathe here's a link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bump ...............

It might take a while for the AC motor whisper'ers here to notice your question . 

I don't want to give you bad advice and then the smoke leaks out of your new motor.

If you were to read this thread through from the beginning , it's a real episode , I'm a low voltage DC guy , my AC knowledge is limited . I've learned a lot .

I bought one of those motors and never used it , it turns out , my lack of experience bit me in the tail , I changed the capacitors in my original motor and that's what it needed from the start.

I'm gonna make a wrap up discussion  about this today , my Lathe is fixed ................. a long story .

Standby


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 5, 2022)

It's fixed , a long time and a parts sourcing nightmare but it runs again .

Lot's of the participants here have helped  to solve the issues , I thank each and every one of you.

From the beginning I struggled with this , I'm a low voltage DC guy , my inexperience with AC circuits and this type of equipment made me look and feel like a bozo.

Things I did wrong .............
I bought a motor that I didn't need. $360.00 !!!
I activated contactors manually and damaged / killed  components that may have otherwise been OK , I fried two contactors , this  is the result of my poking around in there.
I ordered parts from suppliers that I shouldn't have ( more on that later )
I used a multi meter that was faulty and had no capacitance test function , once I had the correct meter,  things changed , actual progress was made.

Things that I did right ..............
In an effort to get a better understanding of how this machine is wired and how it works , I followed every wire and drew out a proper wiring diagram so I could actually see the circuit and how it works. I've never been a fan of simplified wiring diagrams , where several wires are drawn as one for the sake of clarity.
I took my time working through this , and with the help of several of the members here was able to learn about some fundamental motor operation theory and to learn about testing capacitors.
After mulling it over , I decided to not take the easy way out and cave in to the pressure to strip all the Chinese crap out and change to a drum switch , even though I was close to doing this to save time , also I know I could have made this work , the start button I was going to use has thermal overload protection just like the starter on my mill and a drum switch would have been installed between that and the motor.
I did take the time to clean up the wiring while I was in there and replace the cheesy broken  din rail terminal strip.

Parts sourcing was the biggest hurdle to get over with this .

I should say right now , at the end of the day , Busy Bee was who got me all of the parts , I paid dearly for them but they got me what I needed .
It took some negotiating at the local store here , at first they were just not interested , "the machine was too old " , once I proved to them that the current version of this machine is very similar , shares all of the same switching , same transformer and same motor , they were able to order the parts through the Concord store. It only took two months for them to "get it" and place the order .
I think the staff here may have learned some customer service lessons in the process , or I hope they did.

However , before I was able to convince Busy Bee that this old lathe was worth saving ...............

This happened ..............

I ordered contactors ,  off of ebay , a set of three from Trillium controls in Concord Ont . , they were the wrong ones , they never did  reply to any of my messages , to please get me the correct contactors , I could not return them because of this , I'll not be buying anything else from them  , I'm stuck with the contactors they sent.
I also bought a thermal overload relay off of ebay , that came out of China too but arrived quickly , I didn't need one but now I have a spare, the good thing is , this part is correct.
I ordered a second set of contactors from a vendor  based in China on ebay , this was even more frustrating , it took weeks for them to even ship them because of Chinese new year . The picture in the ebay listing  showed the exact contactor I needed , I ordered three , eventually after waiting over a month , I got them , only to find out the idiot who packed the order threw the wrong contactors in the box. I worked with them , as difficult and frustrating as that was , they recognized the mistake and have partially refunded my money , I can keep the contactors.
There isn't an English catalog that I know of where you can look at these specific contactors and choose the exact replacement .
I should mention , yes I ended up with a bunch of contactors I couldn't use , the upside is , they were $15 each from China , $30 each from Trillium , the down side is the Busy Bee contactors were priced at  $65 each  !!!
There are some space limitations inside the electrical box,  so to subsitute in a different contactor or three isn't really an option I was willing to entertain.

I ordered  new motor capacitors off of Amazon , changed those out and made the original motor a working unit again.

I ordered new terminal strips off of Amazon , to replace the cheesy cracked din rail Chinese crappy ones that the machine came with.

Busy Bee got me the exact contactors I needed , they were very expensive , they also got me a pair of directional switches and an "E" stop   switch , I only used the contactors , the other switches are spares.

My theory on switches is ........ every time you activate a switch , it's one less time it's going to work.

So , to summarize the parts list , the parts I actually changed to get this repaired.................
Motor start Capacitor
Motor run Capacitor
All three contactors
Terminal strips where all the connections entering or leaving the electrical box are made.

I replaced the terminal strips that were in poor condition , relocated the one and only fuse the machine came with and relocated the ground terminal strip , while i was cleaning up the messy electrical box.






I have spare parts now , new and used .
I have a spare motor too ( hangs head in shame )


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## YotaBota (Mar 5, 2022)

Good to see you back making chips. Did you try the new motor just to be sure it will work "if" needed?


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 5, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Good to see you back making chips. Did you try the new motor just to be sure it will work "if" needed?


It's safely back in it's box , in case it's needed , about a month ago i tested it  on the bench , now that I think about it


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## boilerhouse (Mar 5, 2022)

That was a good summary to wrap up the thread.  Too often in these forums we are left hanging with no topic resolution.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 5, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> Good to see you back making chips. Did you try the new motor just to be sure it will work "if" needed?


A pain in the arse to do , so I won't be doing it anytime soon. I just want to enjoy having a running machine again and for now , be done with the fiddling , I did bench test it about a month ago just to calm my nerves.

Besides , the excitement of my new to me Tig machine is still quite fresh , I did my first welds with it today .


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## Capt Hook (Mar 5, 2022)

Nice summary. I bench tested the new motor. Works great. draws 6.5 amps running. Now just have to find out how the 3 wires plus gnd hook up to it to fwd and reverse. On the bench, the fwd and rev worked great, but required hard wired jumpers.


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## Capt Hook (Mar 5, 2022)

I bought it from Government Surplus Canada. They laid it down on it's back on a pallet and some of the gear oil dribbled into the electrical compartment. It fried the transformer, so I ordered and installed a new one (not the Chinese original, but one from Newark with similar specs). My guess is that the gear oil dripped into the motor wiring and caused a continuous draw of 55 amps. Spent way too much time troubleshooting and bench testing it and eventually gave in and ordered a new motor.


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 12, 2022)

I noticed a bunch of content on this discussion is missing , as is the "diagnosing an Asian Lathe " thread , I must have missed something .... ?


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## terry_g (Mar 12, 2022)

I asked a moderator about that.
Apparently he asked to have his profile deleted after 
removing a lot of his posts.

Terry


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 12, 2022)

OK , thank's


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## Capt Hook (Mar 12, 2022)

If anyone has a photo of the 3 x power/control wires hooked up the a new motor in either the CT043 or the CX707, that would be much appreciated.


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## YYCHM (Mar 12, 2022)

terry_g said:


> I asked a moderator about that.
> Apparently he asked to have his profile deleted after
> removing a lot of his posts.
> 
> Terry



Hu?  What was that about?


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## Gearhead88 (Mar 12, 2022)

Not sure ???


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## Aburg Rapid Prototype (Nov 20, 2022)

Hi Gearhead88 or other members. I have this same lathe. Two days ago, I was taking a cut when it just died completely. Since this happened, I was forced to get my 1440 back online. I have decided to sell the CT043. When I get the chance, I will be moving it out of its place and seeing if it is just a fuse. The motor was strained trying to cut S7 steel. The machine is at least 15 years old, and never gave me problems, before it died. I am really not needing two lathes and could use the floor space. I have decided to move 100 percent to the 1440. Please PM me with best offer.


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## YYCHM (Nov 20, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> Hi Gearhead88 or other members. I have this same lathe. Two days ago, I was taking a cut when it just died completely. Since this happened, I was forced to get my 1440 back online. I have decided to sell the CT043. When I get the chance, I will be moving it out of its place and seeing if it is just a fuse. The motor was strained trying to cut S7 steel. The machine is at least 15 years old, and never gave me problems, before it died. I am really not needing two lathes and could use the floor space. I have decided to move 100 percent to the 1440. Please PM me with best offer.



You should post this in the classifieds thread.









						Classifieds
					

If you have something to sell, looking to buy, or otherwise list. Place it here! | Once sold, please add a post saying the same. Threads will not be deleted from here by moderators to help preserve forum history.




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## Gearhead88 (Nov 20, 2022)

Aburg Rapid Prototype said:


> Hi Gearhead88 or other members. I have this same lathe. Two days ago, I was taking a cut when it just died completely. Since this happened, I was forced to get my 1440 back online. I have decided to sell the CT043. When I get the chance, I will be moving it out of its place and seeing if it is just a fuse. The motor was strained trying to cut S7 steel. The machine is at least 15 years old, and never gave me problems, before it died. I am really not needing two lathes and could use the floor space. I have decided to move 100 percent to the 1440. Please PM me with best offer.


If you need a motor to revive the lathe you have for sale , I bought a new one and never used it . It was on the lathe for a few days but I never ran it and it went back in the box it came in. I repaired the original motor and used it to get the lathe running , there wasn't an option of returning the new motor I bought , it was special order . Keep in mind , There's a possibility that the motor on your lathe just needs a new capacitor.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 12, 2022)

I have bought used Taiwanese machinery, three out of four had major electrical  issues . I take it, that is parr for the course . My 1992 DF1224g lathe had fried it's forward contactor, they ran it with the reverse  contactor, switching it with a toggle switch .


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