# Vernier Digital callipers?



## Richard Tymko (Mar 7, 2021)

I’m guessing this is going to be a can of worms, but...

I’m looking for a very good digital caliber.  I can’t afford mitutoyo’s but other suggestions in Canada. 
price range $0-$100

my biggest fear how to discern between authentic and nock offs.
Any suggestions?

there is a guy selling  mitutoyo’s on kijiji for $175 but they look like a knock off but can’t say for sure due to limited knowledge and comparison to similar on line.

Tired of using crappy princess auto  callipers.


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## Chip Maker (Mar 7, 2021)

https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/1-808-500196


You didn't specify digital or not or 6" 8". Here's  al KBC link. Over your budget but at least you can trust them.


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## RobinHood (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi Richard,

I know you are not keen on the PA ones, which ones do you have? I have these for my every day use:

https://www.princessauto.com/en/8-in-metal-fractional-digital-caliper/product/PA0008372070

I am very happy with them. One needs to keep them clean and free of oil (ask me how I know). I have Mitutoyo Grade 0 gage blocks that I have checked them against, they will easily hold the +/- one thou accuracy as specified throughout their 8” measuring range.

I did stone all the critical surfaces of the tool to make them run even smoother.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 7, 2021)

Chip Maker said:


> https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/1-808-500196
> 
> 
> You didn't specify digital or not or 6" 8". Here's  al KBC link. Over your budget but at least you can trust them.


Digital ... 6 “. I forgot about kbc..thanks.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 7, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> I know you are not keen on the PA ones, which ones do you have? I have these for my every day use:
> 
> ...




I have the cheap ones from PA. I  also like the absolute feature.  I’ll check them out..


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## YYCHM (Mar 7, 2021)

I've had these for years now.  They seem good enough.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/96566/frankford-arsenal-electronic-caliper

Can't find made in china on them anywhere, but they probably are.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 7, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I've had these for years now.  They seem good enough.
> 
> https://www.cabelas.ca/product/96566/frankford-arsenal-electronic-caliper
> 
> Can't find made in china on them anywhere, but they probably are.



Thanks,
They look exactly like the ones i currently have.  my readout has been acting all wonky lately.


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## YYCHM (Mar 7, 2021)

Richard Tymko said:


> Thanks,
> They look exactly like the ones i currently have.  my readout has been acting all wonky lately.



I find the display goes wonky when the battery needs to be changed.  A fresh battery fixes it right up.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 7, 2021)

YYCHobbyMachinist said:


> I find the display goes wonky when the battery needs to be changed.  A fresh battery fixes it right up.



I have put a new battery in which didnt help.

Im looking at the Mitutoyo from ITM for $153 Canadian with free shipping.  Waiting to see if their march madness sales reduces the price at all.


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## Janger (Mar 7, 2021)

The igaging brand ones are pretty good. Better than my no names but not as nice as the mitutoyo. The igaging one with the big readout is $40 at busy bee.


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## Tom O (Mar 7, 2021)

I’m using PA/KMS calipers but the next ones I’ll buy will be coolant proof


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## Dirt Machinist (Mar 7, 2021)

This could be viewed as nit picking maybe, I don't mean it that way. But hopefully some of this will help. To be accurate I guess it's a commonly used term by some, there's really no such thing as vernier digital calipers. Leaving the dial type out of this, there either a proper mechanically or laser etched and/or engraved vernier design, or there digital. It would be a complex design trying to manufacture a vernier/digital set of calipers and add a great deal to the cost for almost no gain. Fwiw Mitutoyo themselves are well aware of the now multi year and probably world wide problem of counterfeit copy's for at least there digital calipers showing up on sites like Ebay.  Simply put there are NO cheap deals on there calipers anywhere unless they are counterfeits. There's also more than a few YouTube videos showing small but telltale mistakes on the calipers themselves, paper work etc to identify which might or might not be fake. Since those counterfeiter's change tactics so often and no doubt watch the exact same videos, the information becomes unreliable after a fairly short time if you want to be absolutely sure. Either buy from a well known reputable and trusted tool supplier or don't buy if you expect to get what your paying for. Even used on Ebay, Craigslist etc is no guarantee if the previous owner bought a counterfeit and is now reselling. I'd be surprised that doesn't happen fairly often when some finally do figure out they did buy a fake. So why is it always the Mitutoyo calipers that get counterfeited? For at least North America, there pretty much an industry standard in machine shops if you go by the number of recommendations for what to buy on forums like Practical Machinist. So the numbers being sold justify tooling up to produce those counterfeit's.

As biased as I am I still have to admit that just about any off shore set of digital calipers will now be accurate enough for anything a caliper is going to be used for. I do have a mid priced set I paid about $65 for some years ago I use for rougher work and minor wood working tasks. And maybe there's a few very high priced European digital calipers around I've never tried, Mayr etc. And there's some with apparent trusted names like B&S that I believe are now just rebranded offshore calipers with that B&S name slapped on them and a much higher price. But if any of them are any smoother or more accurate than the 6" Mit. solar powered ones I bought it really can't be by very much. While the internal circuitry has improved on some of those off shore calipers, it's still mostly unknown which brands have really done so or when. A lot of them still have very short battery life although using SR instead of LR battery types will last a whole lot longer. On average all the rest of my Mit digital equipment will get at least 3 or more years out of a fresh battery, Fwiw I've now spent over 40 years learning as much as I could about metrology as a side interest of mine. Many might not agree, but the real world facts are that no matter how good your calipers are, if your expecting anything closer than about .005" /.125 mm for actual accuracy and repeatability in average shop and measurment conditions your fooling yourself. Yes they can do a lot better than that, I've checked both myself, the mid priced set and the Mits against very good gauge blocks more than a few times. But that's under the absolute best of conditions and using Mitutoyos recommended method of gently squeezing the jaws against a known flat and square surface. I can usually get measurements averaging to within about .0015" on gauge blocks. But if I need and fully expect to be anywhere under that known .005" then it's time for a mike.

 I see many on YT quoting the .0005" digit some calipers have like it has any meaning and more than a few wrong measurement techniques demonstrated like trying to get accurate measurements out on the jaw tips. Trust me that half 10th digit can be ignored, any digital calipers mechanical design, the small but unavoidable clearances required for them to even operate, and the allowable + - one count world wide standards for accuracy and repeatability as well as the rounding off within the tools circuitry makes that half 10th digit worthless. There's also enough changes and variables when measuring anything that random luck might even allow that last digit to even be correct sometimes, except there's no way to be absolutely sure when it is or isn't. So it then becomes a best guess situation and accuracy doesn't include any guessing.  There's also 3 industry standard terms used by metrolgy company's world wide that are non optional to fully understand once you go beyond a tape measure level of accuracy. And many seem to confuse them as meaning the same thing. #1 Resolution, or basically how many digits the tool has to the right of the decimal point. Just because it has multiple digits does not mean the tool itself is accurate and repeatable to that level because of the next two terms. #2 Repeatability, that's pretty much an indicator of the manufacturing quality and it's mechanical design the tool was made with so it can repeat to the same number with a high degree of confidence. #3 Accuracy, that's a combination of both the other two terms and how well the tool was made and it's smallest division it will reliably repeat to. None of these terms are interchangeable since none of them mean the same thing. So when shopping for any new measuring tool then it's stated in print repeatability and accuracy are the two most important specifications. There's also the additional issue of believing what's in print as being accurate. I've checked a few offshore produced items that sure didn't meet what the paper work said. A 4th much more complex term in metrolgy would be what's called uncertainty of measurement. Far better would be a Google search that will explain it faster and easier than I could here for anyone that's interested enough.


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## PeterT (Mar 7, 2021)

Which 6" Mitutoyo were you looking at? I was going to say this is around the time of year Mitutoyo has  promo sales. Even so there are price differences. Usually I found Thomas Skinner to be least expensive but maybe not today. All I see in their flyer is the more expensive 6" model 500-160-30 at $361 (vs ITM is $312). But on the model 500-196-30 ITM is $153 and KBC is $157. Depending on FOB/shipping one may be work out better than another.

FWIW I am really happy with my Mitutoyo. I have a few offshore battery eaters collected over the years with one defect or another. A couple years ago I bought a large display Accusize for $45 which I was happy with but pretty sure is starting to act up now. Its not bad on batteries but when I turn it on it always shows some value & has to be re-zeroed with jaws closed. I then compare it to a block against my Mitutoyo & it seems to vary on mid range. Not a biggy but... you generally get what you pay for. Some people like Asimeto brand for a lower cost option but that might have something todo with their distributer in Calgary that stood behind it so I dunno. Good luck!

https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/1-808-500196
https://www.itm.com/product/mitutoy...sor-absolute-scale-digital-calliper-0-6-range
https://www.thomasskinner.com/wp-co...Mitutoyo-Small-Tools-Flyer-Winter-2021-TS.pdf
https://www.amazon.ca/Asimeto-7307065-Digital-Accuracy-Resolution/dp/B06XTDKBDS


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## Dabbler (Mar 7, 2021)

What I use day-to-day are iGauging 6" digital calipers, but I recently was gifted a very old Mitutoyo 8" digital caliper - the 'non-absolute' kind, so you have to reset zero every time you turn it on.  For a 30 year old caliper it works well, but the iGauging ones are more accurate.

The iGauging calipers eat up their C2032 battery in about a year, and it will last about twice as long if it isn't in the caliper until ready for use, adn then removed after.  The mitutoyo using SR44 batteries will work for about 5 years without a battery change.

For $156, I'm tempted.  I wouldn't risk getting a fake one.  Too much hassle for a 9$ caliper with lipstick on it.
@Richard Tymko if you can swing it, the above deal looks really good and it will last you for a lifetime. [isn't it the way that the one you want is just out of reach?]


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## Crankit (Mar 7, 2021)

I got a Mitutoyo IP67 8" calipers that I picked up used a few years ago, I might be a tad spoiled now and hence would probably bite the bullet and buy a new pair if these ones die. 

KBC runs Mitutoyo sales at least a couple times a year


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## Dabbler (Mar 8, 2021)

Just having acquired some older Mitutoyo calipers, I bit the bullet and ordered the above caliper from KBC.

Now I've had a small number of off moments with their staff (in Richmond), but my call today was a breath of fresh air.  My order was taken by Riley Cramp, the branch/general manager, and he was very good and verified a bunch of new customer friendly policies.  The most controversial, the minimum sale has dropped to 25$, and it is hard to make a purchase that small in any event.  The free shipping did rise to over 300$, but that's business.

After years of avoiding them I'll go back more regularly now.


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## Crankit (Mar 8, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> Just having acquired some older Mitutoyo calipers, I bit the bullet and ordered the above caliper from KBC.
> 
> Now I've had a small number of off moments with their staff (in Richmond), but my call today was a breath of fresh air.  My order was taken by Riley Cramp, the branch/general manager, and he was very good and verified a bunch of new customer friendly policies.  The most controversial, the minimum sale has dropped to 25$, and it is hard to make a purchase that small in any event.  The free shipping did rise to over 300$, but that's business.
> 
> After years of avoiding them I'll go back more regularly now.



I like their $10.95 shipping fee for orders under 50lb and they are quick for getting orders at the door


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 8, 2021)

Dirt Machinist said:


> This could be viewed as nit picking maybe, I don't mean it that way. But hopefully some of this will help. To be accurate I guess it's a commonly used term by some, there's really no such thing as vernier digital calipers. Leaving the dial type out of this, there either a proper mechanically or laser etched and/or engraved vernier design, or there digital. It would be a complex design trying to manufacture a vernier/digital set of calipers and add a great deal to the cost for almost no gain. Fwiw Mitutoyo themselves are well aware of the now multi year and probably world wide problem of counterfeit copy's for at least there digital calipers showing up on sites like Ebay.  Simply put there are NO cheap deals on there calipers anywhere unless they are counterfeits. There's also more than a few YouTube videos showing small but telltale mistakes on the calipers themselves, paper work etc to identify which might or might not be fake. Since those counterfeiter's change tactics so often and no doubt watch the exact same videos, the information becomes unreliable after a fairly short time if you want to be absolutely sure. Either buy from a well known reputable and trusted tool supplier or don't buy if you expect to get what your paying for. Even used on Ebay, Craigslist etc is no guarantee if the previous owner bought a counterfeit and is now reselling. I'd be surprised that doesn't happen fairly often when some finally do figure out they did buy a fake. So why is it always the Mitutoyo calipers that get counterfeited? For at least North America, there pretty much an industry standard in machine shops if you go by the number of recommendations for what to buy on forums like Practical Machinist. So the numbers being sold justify tooling up to produce those counterfeit's.
> 
> As biased as I am I still have to admit that just about any off shore set of digital calipers will now be accurate enough for anything a caliper is going to be used for. I do have a mid priced set I paid about $65 for some years ago I use for rougher work and minor wood working tasks. And maybe there's a few very high priced European digital calipers around I've never tried, Mayr etc. And there's some with apparent trusted names like B&S that I believe are now just rebranded offshore calipers with that B&S name slapped on them and a much higher price. But if any of them are any smoother or more accurate than the 6" Mit. solar powered ones I bought it really can't be by very much. While the internal circuitry has improved on some of those off shore calipers, it's still mostly unknown which brands have really done so or when. A lot of them still have very short battery life although using SR instead of LR battery types will last a whole lot longer. On average all the rest of my Mit digital equipment will get at least 3 or more years out of a fresh battery, Fwiw I've now spent over 40 years learning as much as I could about metrology as a side interest of mine. Many might not agree, but the real world facts are that no matter how good your calipers are, if your expecting anything closer than about .005" /.125 mm for actual accuracy and repeatability in average shop and measurment conditions your fooling yourself. Yes they can do a lot better than that, I've checked both myself, the mid priced set and the Mits against very good gauge blocks more than a few times. But that's under the absolute best of conditions and using Mitutoyos recommended method of gently squeezing the jaws against a known flat and square surface. I can usually get measurements averaging to within about .0015" on gauge blocks. But if I need and fully expect to be anywhere under that known .005" then it's time for a mike.
> 
> I see many on YT quoting the .0005" digit some calipers have like it has any meaning and more than a few wrong measurement techniques demonstrated like trying to get accurate measurements out on the jaw tips. Trust me that half 10th digit can be ignored, any digital calipers mechanical design, the small but unavoidable clearances required for them to even operate, and the allowable + - one count world wide standards for accuracy and repeatability as well as the rounding off within the tools circuitry makes that half 10th digit worthless. There's also enough changes and variables when measuring anything that random luck might even allow that last digit to even be correct sometimes, except there's no way to be absolutely sure when it is or isn't. So it then becomes a best guess situation and accuracy doesn't include any guessing.  There's also 3 industry standard terms used by metrolgy company's world wide that are non optional to fully understand once you go beyond a tape measure level of accuracy. And many seem to confuse them as meaning the same thing. #1 Resolution, or basically how many digits the tool has to the right of the decimal point. Just because it has multiple digits does not mean the tool itself is accurate and repeatable to that level because of the next two terms. #2 Repeatability, that's pretty much an indicator of the manufacturing quality and it's mechanical design the tool was made with so it can repeat to the same number with a high degree of confidence. #3 Accuracy, that's a combination of both the other two terms and how well the tool was made and it's smallest division it will reliably repeat to. None of these terms are interchangeable since none of them mean the same thing. So when shopping for any new measuring tool then it's stated in print repeatability and accuracy are the two most important specifications. There's also the additional issue of believing what's in print as being accurate. I've checked a few offshore produced items that sure didn't meet what the paper work said. A 4th much more complex term in metrolgy would be what's called uncertainty of measurement. Far better would be a Google search that will explain it faster and easier than I could here for anyone that's interested enough.



Wow,  Thanks for taking the time to write this.  I learned something.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 8, 2021)

PeterT said:


> Which 6" Mitutoyo were you looking at? I was going to say this is around the time of year Mitutoyo has  promo sales. Even so there are price differences. Usually I found Thomas Skinner to be least expensive but maybe not today. All I see in their flyer is the more expensive 6" model 500-160-30 at $361 (vs ITM is $312). But on the model 500-196-30 ITM is $153 and KBC is $157. Depending on FOB/shipping one may be work out better than another.
> 
> FWIW I am really happy with my Mitutoyo. I have a few offshore battery eaters collected over the years with one defect or another. A couple years ago I bought a large display Accusize for $45 which I was happy with but pretty sure is starting to act up now. Its not bad on batteries but when I turn it on it always shows some value & has to be re-zeroed with jaws closed. I then compare it to a block against my Mitutoyo & it seems to vary on mid range. Not a biggy but... you generally get what you pay for. Some people like Asimeto brand for a lower cost option but that might have something todo with their distributer in Calgary that stood behind it so I dunno. Good luck!
> 
> ...


I am pretty much settled on the 500-196-30,  just waiting on the march madness to see if it gets better.

Thanks.


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 8, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> What I use day-to-day are iGauging 6" digital calipers, but I recently was gifted a very old Mitutoyo 8" digital caliper - the 'non-absolute' kind, so you have to reset zero every time you turn it on.  For a 30 year old caliper it works well, but the iGauging ones are more accurate.
> 
> The iGauging calipers eat up their C2032 battery in about a year, and it will last about twice as long if it isn't in the caliper until ready for use, adn then removed after.  The mitutoyo using SR44 batteries will work for about 5 years without a battery change.
> 
> ...




Thanks...


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## Tom Kitta (Mar 8, 2021)

Go to aliexpress and get some 6" digitals for like 17 CAD or so. You can get multiple pairs. Against gage block they are roughly at most +-0.001 9 out of 10 times. I would not be shocked if with resetting them to zero and better pressure control it would be 10 out of 10. 

Main difference between these and something better for $150 or $200 is "Brand" as well as battery use and less sharp edges (i.e. Chinese do not clean up their stuff). 

The latest batch from China seems to be absolutes - i.e. they will hold their measurement over repeat openings and closings. 

I see zero point of buying old stuff from Japan, latest China stuff for much less is far more accurate - I.e. I would trust more brand new Chinese calipers then 30 year old ones from Japan. 

Since batteries are cheap to replace & sharp corners do not bother me the choice is easy. 

One has to remember that calipers are for "rough approximate measurement" and for more precise measurement you should use micrometers. Most of the error when using these is not with the caliper but the user applying uneven pressure and different positions of the caliper and part. 

Note that above is for digital Chinese calipers - they seem to be far more challenged making mechanical things over in China then electronic - mechanical == problem, electronic == great. Same thing holds for DRO - I have no idea why anyone would buy expensive DRO from say Japan or US when you can get a cheap DRO from China in deluxe edition with 1 um scales and touch LCD for like $400 or max $500. Even for industrial purpose where DRO will work 8h a day or more every day.


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## historicalarms (Mar 8, 2021)

I had an expensive Mit when I was still working and had a bank account...It was a good tool...but I also had 1/2 dozen of the Busy Bee-CT-KMS spread out throughout my environment where ever I might need one but the MIT was at my main counter where i did most of my quality control (loosely speaking). Of all the less expensive calipers I have used, only one of them gave questionable readings when compared to the MIT unit, it was constantly .001 to the small (still usable but I had to allow for the error every time). Every other "box store" brand was constantly within .0005.....that is until I dropped the MIT unit on the concrete floor, it never gave a consistent re-measure ever again...you might say "well that's understandable" and you would be right, but the bugaboo here is that I have dropped the "supposedly" sub par units on the same floor...and every one of them worked perfectly afterward.
     With all my calipers that I use, I carry a known dia polished copper jacketed bullet (bullets are optically digital measured & concentricity checked at the factory now) in my pocket along with my change that If I have any reason to question one of them ,I just pop that slug out and test the caliper.


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## Dabbler (Mar 8, 2021)

I paid 16$ for my first iGauging and 29$ for the second.  Even though they are way better than the cheap offshore ones, the Mitutoyo absolute is a big step up from the iGauging ones.


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## PeterT (Mar 8, 2021)

The other issue, that others have already touched on, is end use. There are so many ways to mis-measure things & all calipers have the same limitations as a function of their design. Yes you can poke the center slider down a hole & get a X.0005" number. Is it as good as a depth mic which has a perpendicular base & a micrometer barrel? Probably not. Yes you can span the inside of a bore. Would I trust that over snap gauges or inside mic for a final bearing fit, no again. The head depth, mostly I use for scribing lines like a square except I can do an odd decimal or switch to metric. Its convenient but scribing & making something to a scribe line is not super precise. I see people taking measurements OD turning all the lathe & guilty myself but only when roughing or large to small diameter spans. But on the final cuts where it counts a micrometer is a more controlled OD device because it typically always has a clutch for more consistent feedback, finer resolution barrel vs +/- 0.0005" on vernier. Personal beef when I see people taking their good vernier & using the jaws as a scribe. Its their tool not mine but its not good for the jaws or locking screw & BTW its not even accurate due to parallax. But great application for the 20$ cheapos. Then there is - can you make something to within half thou and with the proper finish with the tools on hand? Its done all the time but its often not as easy as it sounds.

So there's lots of ways to skin the cat. Buy mid range & use the extra cash for a different tool. Or buy once for life as they say & maintain the same philosophy for the next tools knowing it will take longer to assemble what you ultimately want. Its really kind of a personal choice & more about what kind of work you are doing & aspire to do. In my case, pretty much everything I bought including some decent Fowlers has slowly fallen apart. Bezel popped off the DTI. Indicator has an oddball stem or back face so didnt marry well with mag base. Mic started to feel gritty (cheesy ratchet mechanism). Nothing horrible but but also didn't see hard work either. I keep them because sometimes good to have in dirtier or rougher environments.


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## 6.5 Fan (Mar 9, 2021)

I have a pair of digital calipers, a early mitutoyo set that are great and a set from P.A. which are accurate but eat batteries up. From reading i have done some of the cheaper ones don't full shut down when turned off, Never had a problem with the Mitutoyo even in a frozen shop but the P.A. ones i have to take out the battery or in 2 months she is dead.


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## Tom O (Mar 9, 2021)

On the plus side though Princess Auto sells bulk battery packs fairly cheap.


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## Dabbler (Mar 14, 2021)

So I got my new caliper, and it is a joy to use: silky smooth, and it seems to be very repeatable.  I can get to the half thou on my gauge blocks every time (that I tried).

A nice tool is a joy to use....


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## Richard Tymko (Mar 25, 2021)

Just a followup to this string,  I decided NOT to go with the mitutoyo.  After reading several reviews and comments and still trying to stay within my price range of $150,  I settled on the . . .
Brown and Sharpe 950011701 for $153.  Man what an improvement from my Princess Auto model.    The smoothness of movement and the ABS is a game changer.  WHO KNEW!

Still breaking old habits of having to open then close and then reset the zero, but very happy with my choice.

I don't know how much value my observations are worth, not having any experience with multiple styles and models of  callipers, but, for what it is worth... 

Best choice ever!


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## Dabbler (Mar 25, 2021)

As a followup to my post #16, It seems that KBC is looking to expand their number of branches;  Calgary is on the list, but perhaps not the first new one.

@Richard Tymko Did you buy locally to you, or did you order and ship?


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