# R8 collets



## eric_brackenbury (Jul 22, 2022)

Hi folks, new to milling and need to get R8 collets to gain some height with my sieg mini mill.
Other than LMS, any recomendations whether to buy a set or singles as required and from whome ?
TIA
Eric B


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## YYCHM (Jul 22, 2022)

What's a M8 Collet?  I don't see anything called that on the LMS website?


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 22, 2022)

Sorry these ones : Collet Set, R8 Metric, Set of 10
Havent got three posts up yet so cannot put the link
Part Number: 5915

Or the larger set
Collet Set, R8, Set of 23
Part Number: 2872


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## YYCHM (Jul 22, 2022)

So you want R8 metric collets?  What size/thread is your draw bar?

The set of 23 you listed is imperial?


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## Degen (Jul 22, 2022)

If you want to get a set of metric R8's (BTW the draw bar is still usually imperial I have a metric R8 of 10mm)

Try ebay.de and to ensure you get on the german version use a VPN with the german address.

A better recommendation is to to add a spacer usually 6" is the right amount to compensate for the vise  yet still allow full contact at the upper end.

Now you can use R8 ER32 system which gives better coverage at lower cost.

Before





After


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## Mcgyver (Jul 23, 2022)

KBC lists metric R8 collets, their import house brand, probably lots of others do as well.  I've never heard of them refered to as M8, instead look for R8 in metric sizes






						Results Page 1 :: KBC Tools & Machinery
					






					www.kbctools.ca


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## YYCHM (Jul 23, 2022)

AliExpress....


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## Susquatch (Jul 23, 2022)

That's some dog leash you have on that machine @Degen! Does it try to run away from you sometimes?


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## Susquatch (Jul 23, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Hi folks, new to milling and need to get M8 collets to gain some height with my sieg mini mill.
> Other than LMS, any recomendations whether to buy a set or singles as required and from whome ?
> TIA
> Eric B



I didn't see an introduction in the new members area. Consider doing that and introducing yourself. 

In the meantime, a big welcome from farm country south of Chatham Ontario!

As others have said, look for R8 not M8. 

When I bought a few selected R8 collets recently, I made the mistake of assuming that the drawbar thread was a standard. It isn't. Just some are more common than others. Best to check what your machine uses before you go shopping for R8 collets. 

Also, R8 collets are not ideal for holding end mills. You might be better off getting an R8 to ER32 or ER40 adapter instead and then getting a good set of ER collets on 1/16ths increments. 

Of course, that will eat up some of your headroom. Many many users install a column extension on their mills to deal with this issue. 

Again, WELCOME!


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## SomeGuy (Jul 23, 2022)

KBC, Amazon, Busy Bee Tools, a lot of them sell collet sets.


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## LenVW (Jul 23, 2022)

Eric,
BusyBee has a good selection of R8 collets at it’s Toronto stores.
I bought a few for my Mini-Mill up to 3/4” - $12/ea.


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## YYCHM (Jul 23, 2022)

Set of 13 for $10 each.



			https://www.amazon.ca/13pcs-Precision-Collets-Set-Bridgeport/dp/B017NEU0J6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=280YKU8L0MA7C&keywords=R8+COLLET+SET&qid=1658620731&s=industrial&sprefix=r8+collet+set%2Cindustrial%2C168&sr=1-4


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## LenVW (Jul 23, 2022)

If you want to browse, these are Metric collets,



			https://www.amazon.ca/HHIP-3903-0006-Pieces-Collet-3-20mm/dp/B07HCS2325/ref=asc_df_B07HCS2325/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459390724244&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13129978453298192401&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001031&hvtargid=pla-891683838943&psc=1


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 25, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> So you want R8 metric collets?  What size/thread is your draw bar?
> 
> The set of 23 you listed is imperial?


I have been away for the weekend so will check in the morning and report back.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 25, 2022)

Degen said:


> If you want to get a set of metric R8's (BTW the draw bar is still usually imperial I have a metric R8 of 10mm)
> 
> Try ebay.de and to ensure you get on the german version use a VPN with the german address.
> 
> ...


Wonder if I can extend the height on my SIEG X2 mini mill though, but I see what you have done.


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## Degen (Jul 25, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Wonder if I can extend the height on my SIEG X2 mini mill though, but I see what you have done.


In your case you would need to add the extension at the base of the column, the hardest part us determining how much extra you need.  It is a fine balance between work holding (directly on the table/ in a vise), tool holder, tool length and finally work size.

The second item is go solid spacer, it adds dead mass which basically adds dampening to vibrations.  This is important in all lighter machinery.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

Degen said:


> In your case you would need to add the extension at the base of the column, the hardest part us determining how much extra you need.  It is a fine balance between work holding (directly on the table/ in a vise), tool holder, tool length and finally work size.
> 
> The second item is go solid spacer, it adds dead mass which basically adds dampening to vibrations.  This is important in all lighter machinery.


Perhaps a new thread on this subject might be the right thing to do ?


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> So you want R8 metric collets?  What size/thread is your draw bar?
> 
> The set of 23 you listed is imperial?


Where can I find the thread size, there is nothing in the scant booklet I got with the machine.
I should say the intent is to give me more work height, at the moment I hace an R8 morse collet but I see it like the drill chuck reduces the size of what can be done. I figure the use of R8 collets will gain some in this respect.


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Perhaps a new thread on this subject might be the right thing to do ?



Your call. It's all about your new mill.


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Where can I find the thread size, there is nothing in the scant booklet I got with the machine.
> I should say the intent is to give me more work height, at the moment I hace an R8 morse collet but I see it like the drill chuck reduces the size of what can be done. I figure the use of R8 collets will gain some in this respect.



Pull the draw bar out the top and measure the thread. Sometimes you have to push it up a bit from the bottom to grab ahold of it at the top. Also, there are often washers and sleeves in there. Watch when you pull it out to see their order or be careful to leave them on there.

Post a photo of your R8 Morse stuff. I think we might be hung up on terminology.

The taper is R8 not Morse.

Unless you have an R8 to Morse adapter. In which case it is best to put that in the drawer for some future time when you might need it, and get an R8 Drill Chuck instead.



			https://a.co/d/2iTxPXF
		


For holding end mills, the best is R8 Collets,



			https://a.co/d/gMQZVR5
		


or an R8 ER32 adapter and a small set of ER32 Collets.



			https://a.co/d/2WOcfxF
		


I selected these for low cost not top quality. They will all work fine but some might say spend a little more.


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Where can I find the thread size, there is nothing in the scant booklet I got with the machine.
> I should say the intent is to give me more work height, at the moment I hace an R8 morse collet but I see it like the drill chuck reduces the size of what can be done. I figure the use of R8 collets will gain some in this respect.



You will have to pull the draw bar and measure the dia. and thread pitch.  Before buying collets you need to ensure the threads match you draw bar.

R8 collets will buy you the most head room and if you want to bypass using your drill chuck you will need a full set of metric collets.   I use a R8-ER20 collet chuck with a full set of metric collets when the drill chuck is a problem.  The ER20 collet chuck and collets are a lot cheaper than a full set of metric R8 collets.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Your call. It's all about your new mill.


Being new to the group I wish to play along with how things work but we might as well stay here.
So with my mill being an adfjustable column, I wonder how extending the column might be done. Perhaps at the top?


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Being new to the group I wish to play along with how things work but we might as well stay here.
> So with my mill being an adfjustable column, I wonder how extending the column might be done. Perhaps at the top?



This might be better answered by someone who has a very similar model. But I do have a Heavy Duty column mill/drill. Regardless, if I were doing it, I'd put the extension at the bottom not at the top. That way you can make it solid and not lose much rigidity. If you put it at the top, the bottom will be tubular and the angular rigidity will be much less.


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## David_R8 (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Being new to the group I wish to play along with how things work but we might as well stay here.
> So with my mill being an adfjustable column, I wonder how extending the column might be done. Perhaps at the top?


I've seen mini-mill examples where a spacer has been added to the bottom of the column.


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## trlvn (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Being new to the group I wish to play along with how things work but we might as well stay here.
> So with my mill being an adfjustable column, I wonder how extending the column might be done. Perhaps at the top?


That is a major modification and you indicated that you are new to the machining hobby.  I'd suggest you get acquainted with what you have before spending time or money on increased capacity.

You mentioned Sieg.  Is this the mill you have?















						SIEG X2D Mini Mill 4962
					

The LittleMachineShop SIEG X2D Mini Mill has all the features you want at an incredibly low price. Shop this high quality mill at LittleMachineShop today!




					littlemachineshop.com
				




Craig


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> The ER20 collet chuck and collets are a lot cheaper than a full set of metric R8 collets.



@eric_brackenbury  - Not only what Craig says above, but also keep in mind that you need more R8 collets than er20 or er32.  R8 collets don't have the gripping range that ER collets do so you need a finer increment of collets.

I know I'm spending your money, but if I were you, I get an R8 - ER set, and I'd also get a few selected R8 collets - just the ones you need for inexpensive end mills (eg 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 6mm, and 12mm).


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

trlvn said:


> That is a major modification and you indicated that you are new to the machining hobby.  I'd suggest you get acquainted with what you have before spending time or money on increased capacity.
> 
> You mentioned Sieg.  Is this the mill you have?
> 
> ...



Yes. Please post a few photos. We would all benefit from seeing what you are working with.


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## David_R8 (Jul 26, 2022)

Were it me, I'd get one 3/4" R8 collet and a bunch of TTS-style holders like this:




__





						Shank Shell Face Mill Arbor Adapter Holder Retail 3 Pieces of 3/4 ER20 1.38 Chuck Chuck + 1Pc R8 Chuck 3/4, with Flat TTS System Kit, Tool Holder : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

Shank Shell Face Mill Arbor Adapter Holder Retail 3 Pieces of 3/4 ER20 1.38 Chuck Chuck + 1Pc R8 Chuck 3/4, with Flat TTS System Kit, Tool Holder : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca
				



(no idea if this is a decent set, it was just a decently priced Amazon search return)

Or an ER20 R8 collect chuck like this and a set of metric ER20 collets.


			https://www.amazon.ca/Accusize-Collet-Bridgeport-Wrench-0223-0954/dp/B018C05CAM
		


(Accusize sells decent quality stuff)


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

I got a MT2-ER20 chuck,  R8-ER20 chuck and 15 pc metric ER20 collet set for $45 from AliExpress.

The other thing to consider is a set of stubby drill bits.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> You will have to pull the draw bar and measure the dia. and thread pitch.  Before buying collets you need to ensure the threads match you draw bar.
> 
> R8 collets will buy you the most head room and if you want to bypass using your drill chuck you will need a full set of metric collets.   I use a R8-ER20 collet chuck with a full set of metric collets when the drill chuck is a problem.  The ER20 collet chuck and collets are a lot cheaper than a full set of metric R8 collets.


It appears to me that extending the column might be a better route as I have an R8 collet chuck with collets and I can get metric for that if needed. Seems a better dollar value this way, unless I am wrong and there is flaw in that.


trlvn said:


> That is a major modification and you indicated that you are new to the machining hobby.  I'd suggest you get acquainted with what you have before spending time or money on increased capacity.
> 
> You mentioned Sieg.  Is this the mill you have?
> 
> ...


This is the one I have


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Yes. Please post a few photos. We would all benefit from seeing what you are working with.


This one


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

I did get this setup at the start but it cut down on work height.
R8 BRIDGEPORT SHANK ER32 COLLET CHUCK​18PC ER32 COLLET SET​


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> This one



I see. Nice machine! 

I would not bother with a post extension unless you can find a good one pre-made to fit the mill and then only at the bottom. 

But it looks like it has plenty of Z travel for its size. What are you making that you need more Z travel? 

But ya, I think the whole R8-ER20 thing is the way to go with perhaps a few R8 collets in common sizes (1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 6mm, 12mm).

If you need more headroom for drilling, drill bits should work fairly well in the ER collets. 

It doesn't look like a better drill chuck will get you anything. It's already pretty compact.


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

My mini-mill came with a 3/8" R8 collet and a 1/2" R8 collet.  You can get most imperial endmills with either of those two shanks.  You probably don't want to go bigger than 1/2" on that mill anyways.


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> I did get this setup at the start but it cut down on work height.
> R8 BRIDGEPORT SHANK ER32 COLLET CHUCK​18PC ER32 COLLET SET​



I think it's perfect. Maybe you lost 2 inches. Still way less than a drill chick. If you really need the 2 inches, then get a few R8 collets but know that don't have the same holding power than ER does.


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

Hey @eric_brackenbury, what vise did you get? Is it too big for this mill?


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

This air spring kit increases your Z travel a little bit.  You probably will get one down the road as these mini-mills have a horrible head drop issue.






						Air Spring Conversion Kit | Torsion Spring Conversion - LittleMachineShop.com
					

This air spring conversion kit provides all the parts required to change to a vertical air spring that mounts inside & above the column. Shop this kit today!




					littlemachineshop.com


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> This air spring kit increases your Z travel a little bit.  You probably will get one down the road as these mini-mills have a horrible head drop issue.



You forgot the link Craig. 

Tell us about the head drop issue. I'm not familiar with it.


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> You forgot the link Craig.
> 
> Tell us about the head drop issue. I'm not familiar with it.



Oooops..... fixed.

The head is raised/lowered via a rack and pinion that's rather sloppy.  You would be down feeding with the fine feed and the head drops as the pinion picks up a new tooth on the rack.  The torsion head support spring isn't stiff enough to prevent it.  The air spring supports the head much better and alleviates the problem some what.  Shimming the rack closer to the pinion helps as well.  All very annoying and documented on the web.









						CX605 Down Feed Tune Up
					

Finally got fed up with the sloppy down feed and head drop issues on my CX605 and decided to do something about it.    Apparently the head drop issue has to do with the poor mesh between the column rack and up/down feed gear as well as the sprung head support system.  I tackled the mesh issue by...




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## whydontu (Jul 26, 2022)

Little Machine Shop has a solid column conversion kit for the  X2 mini mills that drastically improves rigidity, as well as a 2” riser block. Also really nice folks to deal with, very knowledgeable and helpful.









						Solid Column Conversion Kit | Mini Mill Conversion Kit
					

This mini mill conversion kit is designed to convert a HiTorque Tilting Column Mini Mill to solid column. This kit includes the base and column along with fasteners and instructions. Order online today.




					littlemachineshop.com


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

whydontu said:


> Little Machine Shop has a solid column conversion kit for the  X2 mini mills that drastically improves rigidity, as well as a 2” riser block. Also really nice folks to deal with, very knowledgeable and helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like LMS, I just can't handle their shipping rates.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I see. Nice machine!
> 
> I would not bother with a post extension unless you can find a good one pre-made to fit the mill and then only at the bottom.
> 
> ...


For drilling I have a half horse power drill press if I need long drill usage in larger pieces. My longer term plan is possibly custom triple trees on my competiton Trials Motorcycle, some time in the future though.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I like LMS, I just can't handle their shipping rates.


Yes and shipping in general is bad from the USA getting that way everywhere it seems.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I like LMS, I just can't handle their shipping rates.


Thanks for the link looks like the solution and really not too bad a price for my BusyBee CX612 Craftex Mini Mill.
Lets see what the shipping might be on that though !


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> You will have to pull the draw bar and measure the dia. and thread pitch.  Before buying collets you need to ensure the threads match you draw bar.
> 
> R8 collets will buy you the most head room and if you want to bypass using your drill chuck you will need a full set of metric collets.   I use a R8-ER20 collet chuck with a full set of metric collets when the drill chuck is a problem.  The ER20 collet chuck and collets are a lot cheaper than a full set of metric R8 collets.


Looks like I have a 7/16th with 20 UNF thread. does that sound right ?


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> Oooops..... fixed.
> 
> The head is raised/lowered via a rack and pinion that's rather sloppy.  You would be down feeding with the fine feed and the head drops as the pinion picks up a new tooth on the rack.  The torsion head support spring isn't stiff enough to prevent it.  The air spring supports the head much better and alleviates the problem some what.  Shimming the rack closer to the pinion helps as well.  All very annoying and documented on the web.
> 
> ...


Waiting on this as its back ordered till August but plan on getting it the the other two DRO's I need , I have one on the column.


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Looks like I have a 7/16th with 20 UNF thread. does that sound right ?



Yup, that's good, it's standard and not metric.


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## LenVW (Jul 26, 2022)

Eric,
Here is set of R8 collets that I posted on Saturday.
Drawbar is 7/16”-20
Metric Bores.
Amazon has the whole set on for $102.00


BrandHHIPMaterialSteelIncluded componentsRound Collet Set
About this item​
Made of hardened, high grade tool steel
Precision ground to close tolerance
Internal thread is 7/16"-20
Includes 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 18, and 20mm
Collets minimize the amount working height used. Much less then drill chucks and boring bars with required cutting tips.
The LINK is included here.

Specifications for this item​
Brand NameHHIPEan0769053092423Global Trade Identification Number00769053092423Included ComponentsRound Collet SetMaterialSteelMeasurement SystemMetricModel Number3903-0006




			https://www.amazon.ca/HHIP-3903-0006-Pieces-Collet-3-20mm/dp/B07HCS2325/ref=asc_df_B07HCS2325/?tag=chmw099-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459390724244&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13129978453298192401&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001031&hvtargid=pla-891683838943&psc=1


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

My appologies I should have introduced myself at the beginning !
I took two metal shops in high school then in Art / trade school studdied precious metals in the Jewellery and Silver smithing trades. 9 years training as a goldsmith and diamond mounter, now since 1960 I have been in the trade 61 years. Covid slowed things big time but still do a bit to keep my hand in now. If it helps take a look at www.brackenbury.ca
Last couple of years started getting a few tools together in the garage where I fight for space with my competition Trials motorcycles. Been a fix it person all my life. Hope that enough to clue you in where I am at now.


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## Susquatch (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> For drilling I have a half horse power drill press if I need long drill usage in larger pieces. My longer term plan is possibly custom triple trees on my competiton Trials Motorcycle, some time in the future though.



A million years ago I had a trials bike. Never competed though. Just loved the go-anywhere ability. Had an enduro after that and missed the trials bike so much that I switched the enduro to knobby tires, and swapped in a giant ring gear and smaller drive gear. 

What the heck is a triple stack?


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Eric,
> Here is set of R8 collets that I posted on Saturday.
> Drawbar is 7/16”-20
> Metric Bores.
> ...


Will they take the 7/16 draw bar ?


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## LenVW (Jul 26, 2022)

Look at the . . . “About this item”

Made of hardened, high grade tool steel
Precision ground to close tolerance
Internal thread is 7/16"-20
Includes 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 18, and 20mm


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## YYCHM (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Will they take the 7/16 draw bar ?



Yes, the Ad states 7/16-20 thread.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 26, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Look at the . . . “About this item”
> 
> Made of hardened, high grade tool steel
> Precision ground to close tolerance
> ...


Getting late and you can take the horse to the trough but it won't always drink ;-)


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## PaulL (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> My appologies I should have introduced myself at the beginning !
> I took two metal shops in high school then in Art / trade school studdied precious metals in the Jewellery and Silver smithing trades. 9 years training as a goldsmith and diamond mounter, now since 1960 I have been in the trade 61 years. Covid slowed things big time but still do a bit to keep my hand in now. If it helps take a look at www.brackenbury.ca
> Last couple of years started getting a few tools together in the garage where I fight for space with my competition Trials motorcycles. Been a fix it person all my life. Hope that enough to clue you in where I am at now.


Beautiful work Eric! Welcome to the forum!


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## whydontu (Jul 26, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> My appologies I should have introduced myself at the beginning !
> I took two metal shops in high school then in Art / trade school studdied precious metals in the Jewellery and Silver smithing trades. 9 years training as a goldsmith and diamond mounter, now since 1960 I have been in the trade 61 years. Covid slowed things big time but still do a bit to keep my hand in now. If it helps take a look at www.brackenbury.ca
> Last couple of years started getting a few tools together in the garage where I fight for space with my competition Trials motorcycles. Been a fix it person all my life. Hope that enough to clue you in where I am at now.


really beautiful stuff. Not going to show your site to the cruise director, could have an adverse effect on our retirement funds


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 27, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> A million years ago I had a trials bike. Never competed though. Just loved the go-anywhere ability. Had an enduro after that and missed the trials bike so much that I switched the enduro to knobby tires, and swapped in a giant ring gear and smaller drive gear.
> 
> What the heck is a triple stack?


Triple Trees are the two units holding the forks ;-)


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## Mcgyver (Jul 29, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> If it helps take a look at www.brackenbury.ca



Nice site Eric.  I've been doing some lost wax casting recent myself, mechanical not jewellery, but there's often interesting overlaps with these metal crafts.  Just got a Smith torch and have to learn to do the .001" gas welds now  

Welcome to the forum.
Mike


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## Johnwa (Jul 29, 2022)

Welcome to the group.  I use standard morse taper collets in my minimill.


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## eric_brackenbury (Jul 29, 2022)

Mcgyver said:


> Nice site Eric.  I've been doing some lost wax casting recent myself, mechanical not jewellery, but there's often interesting overlaps with these metal crafts.  Just got a Smith torch and have to learn to do the .001" gas welds now
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> Mike


Thanks, I don't do lost wax but if I need castin I use cuttlebone all my other work is from scratch and I use propane and oxygen. yes many skills overlap and for me its getting back to high school pleasure denied my (not great teachers) plus I am an avid Trials motorcyclist so wil be updating some parts on my vintage bike and doing mods on my modern Moto Trials machine


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## YYCHM (Jul 29, 2022)

Johnwa said:


> I use standard morse taper collets in my minimill.



What mini-mill do you have John?


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## Johnwa (Jul 29, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> What mini-mill do you have John?


I have a generic X2.


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## PaulL (Jul 29, 2022)

eric_brackenbury said:


> Thanks, I don't do lost wax but if I need castin I use cuttlebone all my other work is from scratch and I use propane and oxygen.


I certainly recognized some interesting evolutions on roman and medieval forms in those rings!


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## eric_brackenbury (Aug 4, 2022)

PaulL said:


> I certainly recognized some interesting evolutions on roman and medieval forms in those rings!


I know I'm old but not sure about Roman ;-) It's probably just traditional UK training back in the 60's


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## LenVW (Aug 4, 2022)

Eric,
There are lots of mini-mill model ‘numbers’ available that capable of precise machining with the proper cutter tooling. The R8 spindle is fairly common for a range of cutters.

Commercial T&D shops have ‘full size’ knee mills (5hp, 9 x 40” tables, etc).
Unfortunately, these ‘full size’ mills are way to heavy for the typical home shop.

How is the supplier network for precious metals these days ?


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## eric_brackenbury (Aug 4, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Eric,
> There are lots of mini-mill model ‘numbers’ available that capable of precise machining with the proper cutter tooling. The R8 spindle is fairly common for a range of cutters.
> 
> Commercial T&D shops have ‘full size’ knee mills (5hp, 9 x 40” tables, etc).
> ...


I have another approach to gaining height on the mill but am waiting for stock to come in at LMS.
I only buy white metals form a bullion dealer and with 24K and alloys make my own yellow karat metals.


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## CWret (Aug 6, 2022)

I'm still thinking about pulling the trigger to buy my first mill (likely soon) - so I'm learning about tooling. I realize that starting off with the right collets (for your intended purpose) is quite important. I recently watched what Joe Pieczynski had to say about collets (Joe puts out a lot of good videos). The last 5 minutes of the video give a great visual explanation of the difference between R8 and R8-ER collets --  have a look @eric_brackenbury:





						joe pieczynski  collets youtube - Bing video
					






					www.bing.com
				



"Joe Pieczynski: Collets- Types, Pros, Cons, and general info"

I have a couple of collet questions & would appreciate feedback (I think this is a good place to ask rather than starting a new thread):
 - Which grips better - an R8 collet that is properly sized or an R8-ER collet? (I understand that the size range of an R8 is much less than the ER but if sized correctly - which is better?)
 - If using a carbide end mill - what is the best collet? or is a different holder needed? (when being used on a benchtop with a max power of 2 Hp)
 - Is collet accuracy that important for a hobby guy not intending to make precision parts? (0.0002 vs 0.0006). I've seen accuracy shown as 0.0006 TIR - what is TIR? 
 - Amazon has a BETOOLL 13 psc R8 set, 1/8 to 7/8 at $128.38 - is this a good deal





						13pcs Precision R8 Collets Set 1/8 - 7/8" Mill Chuck Holder for Bridgeport .0006 : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

13pcs Precision R8 Collets Set 1/8 - 7/8" Mill Chuck Holder for Bridgeport .0006 : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca
				



       the above shows material as 65Mn  - what's that?

Thanks
Craig


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## eric_brackenbury (Aug 6, 2022)

CWret said:


> I'm still thinking about pulling the trigger to buy my first mill (likely soon) - so I'm learning about tooling. I realize that starting off with the right collets (for your intended purpose) is quite important. I recently watched what Joe Pieczynski had to say about collets (Joe puts out a lot of good videos). The last 5 minutes of the video give a great visual explanation of the difference between R8 and R8-ER collets --  have a look @eric_brackenbury:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the ER32 collet in my Mill and it slightly reduces the available height but I have been given a way to mod the mill to regain that height. I am all about being as accurate as possible from the get go, remember if you start with an inacurate cut then proceed with another process in what you are making that inaccuracy will become worse the more you do. The cost of the ER32 chucks and holder is totaly worth it in the long run in my opinion. Thanks for the link to the video, it explaines it all very in the different chucking tools and I think confirms exactly how I see it


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## CWret (Aug 6, 2022)

Good point - the errors are cumulative


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## RobinHood (Aug 6, 2022)

I’ll answer some of the questions…

TIR—> Total Indicator Reading; it means the total amount the needle of an indicator testing the bore of the collet moves during one rotation. In your case 6 tenths.

65Mn —-> is the steel designation; it is approximately equivalent to SAE 5160. Here is a little write-up on a knife maker website.








						What is 65mn steel? - 65Mn Carbon Steel Review - Knife User
					

If you ever bought a machete or a knife with … What is 65mn steel? – 65Mn Carbon Steel Review Read More »




					knifeuser.com
				




Yes, use the best accuracy tooling you can afford. You can’t go wrong.

The clamping range of an ER collet is much wider as compared to a R8 one. They are great for holding drill bits; yes, it takes longer to change out tooling compared to using a keyless chuck, but the drill is held much more securely.


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## CWret (Aug 6, 2022)

Thanks - and yes that is a good explanation of 65mn


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## Susquatch (Aug 6, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> TIR—> Total Indicator Reading;



Huh. Just learned something. I always thought it was Total Indicated Runout. 

Doesn't matter though. Both are essentially the same thing.


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## PaulL (Aug 6, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Total Indicated Runout.


I always read Total Internal Runout - Runout measured on the interior of a collet or socket or such.


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## Canadium (Aug 7, 2022)

According to Google and Wikipedia @RobinHood is correct. The proper useage is "Total Indicator Reading".
"In metrology and the fields that it serves, total indicator reading, also known by the newer name full indicator movement, is the difference between the maximum and minimum measurements,..." although as @Susquatch pointed out we are all referring to the same thing.



			what is TIR - Google Search


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2022)

CWret said:


> Which grips better - an R8 collet that is properly sized or an R8-ER collet? (I understand that the size range of an R8 is much less than the ER but if sized correctly - which is better?)
> - If using a carbide end mill - what is the best collet? or is a different holder needed? (when being used on a benchtop with a max power of 2 Hp)
> - Is collet accuracy that important for a hobby guy not intending to make precision parts? (0.0002 vs 0.0006).



You have good answers from others above.

But perhaps I can fill in a few gaps with what I have come to know about your questions. Keep in mind that I've had a lathe for 30 years, but only recently got a mill that was worthy of this discussion. In other words, I'm still on the steep side of the learning curve for milling myself. But we all always learn more about everything as time passes. 

Also, your questions are useful to other readers as well, so I am gunna say a whole bunch of things here that you already know. Please forgive me for that. I did try to answer the questions you asked but it might be buried a bit.....  *I bolded them if you just want to get to the bottom line *

As you know, collets can hold two primary types of things - tools and parts. Tools come in standard diameters so collets and holders don't need to be as flexible to hold them. Any 3/8 collet will hold a 3/8 tool perfectly because the entire inside surface of the collet fits the entire outside surface of the tool. 

As you already know most bigger ER style collets have 8 slits running front to back and another 8 back to front, (16 in total and smaller ones have a few less) so ER collets do a better job of holding a wider range of sizes than say an R8 Tool Holder which only has 3 slots running only front to back. More slits mean more surfaces to conform better to a non- standard size of cylindrical shaft. 

*Your addition of a 2HP requirement adds a complexity that is difficult to deal with. HP is a rate of doing work. It isn't a work holding factor in and of itself. Torque is a much more meaningful parameter. Therefore I can only assume that you mean that your mill has a 2HP motor on it and that implies a range of torques that are probably encountered given your gearing and cutting speeds. My own mill has a 2HP motor on it so I can relate that to my own tool holding experiences. *

To address your specific question about which is better for the optimum situation, I will have to speculate. I have not seen any testing or even any manufacturers claims. But it seems to me that there are two factors that define better. One is the gripped area which is a function of the diameter, the length, minus the number and width of any slots (slots can't hold anything). And the other is the clamping force imposed by the drawbar or collet nut against a taper.  I would think that the R8 collet itself is the strongest but only for the situation where the diameter of the piece is the same as the diameter of the collet. I chose this for three reasons. 1. It's hard to use a collet wrench to get the collet tighter than a drawbar could. 2. Because two layers of holders (an ER held in an R8) adds additional complexity. 3. Because R8s have fewer slots and therefore more surface area. But that's just my guess..... I would also say that there will always be exceptions. *To answer your question directly, I have a full set of ER32 collets and an ER32 - R8 holder, but I always reach for the right plain R8 holder to hold a carbide or HSS end mill. I could easily be convinced otherwise with input based on other factors I didn't think of. But that's my opinion for now. I'm also jealous of those guys with big 40 taper machines. But then again not so jealous at the cash register!

The material of the tool, either carbide, HSS, or otherwise has no bearing on that choice.*

Generally speaking, lathes spin parts and mills spin tools. Therefore collets used on a lathe are usually used to hold parts, and collets used on the spindle of a mill is usually used to hold tools. Of course, innovative machinists know no boundaries and are often found doing things different to the norm like spinning tools in a lathe and parts in a mill.

The C5 collet is widely used to hold parts in a lathe chuck and in rotary holders on the table of a mill. 

R8 collets do not consume any vertical height on a mill and are widely used to hold tools (end mills, fly cutters, etc.). As above, since these tools are almost always standard diameters, you don't need a huge array of R8 Collets. I have only 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 6mm, 12mm. I'll probably add more only as the need arises. 

ER Collets can hold tools or parts. Individual collets also hold a wider range of diameters better than say an R8 or a C5. 

C5 and ER collets do not require a drawbar themselves. Thus means that they can used with longer parts that extend through them. However, ER collets are often held in another holder that does require a drawbar which in turn limits the length of the stock that can be used. 

Precision parts means different things to different machinists. 
Machining parameters are usually described as a target dimension and a tolerance. For example 1.2500 inches +/- 0.0005. In other words the goal is to make a part with a diameter between 1.2495 and 1.2505.   Sometimes the plus tolerance is different than the minus tolerance. But again, precision is a relative term. Even 1 whole thou is difficult to achieve in many operations. It often depends on the material, the tools, and machine. But the biggest variable is the machinist and their skill set. 

For 90 percent of what most of us do, we just make parts that work. Precision is a word we use to describe setting the bar up a few notches. That might mean +/- 0.001 to some or 0.0005 to others or even less on occasion. 

I think it's also important to remember that temperature and other external factors become more and more important as the precision requirement increases. 

And last but not least, how good is your measuring equipment and how well calibrated is it. What you think is 5 tenths, might well be 15 tenths or more just because of measurement errors or a hot part. 

*Now to answer your specific question about collet runout and making non-precision parts. Again, I will offer an opinion. Better is better - period. But not necessarily for the reasons we might think. I believe that a slight collet runout won't affect the result in the part at all unless the cutting width is based on the diameter of the cutter. Collet runout only increases the cutting path by the runout. A slow feed will ensure that the part is cut smoothly. Most parts require several passes and a wider cut than the tool width. And for that matter, precision slots are seldom cut in one pass anyway. So a little run out is not really a big deal. You just compensate as you work. 

Where the run out matters is usually vibration on the cutting surface caused by only one or two flutes doing most of the work. This can cause things like wavy looking surfaces. A little faster or slower feed for a given rpm will often correct this. 

Does it really matter? My advice is to buy what you can afford. I don't think a little runout on a collet will give you any real heartburn. You can always sell a beginner set or even give them away if and when you actually need something better. On the other hand, if you can afford it, get good ones now - it's hard to imagine regretting that decision. *

Sorry for the extensive response. It was mostly meant to help others looking for answers because your questions are actually quite common but few others with those questions have your broader understanding. Hopefully I answered your questions along the way.


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## RobinHood (Aug 7, 2022)

Collet run-out (or more precisely, the lack of it) becomes more of a factor the smaller the cutter you intend to use. A 6 tenths TIR may be fine for a 3/8 or 1/4” end mill; but not so much for a 1/16” (or smaller) one. Generally, the smaller the cutter, the tighter the run-out tolerance needs to be.


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> Collet run-out (or more precisely, the lack of it) becomes more of a factor the smaller the cutter you intend to use. A 6 tenths TIR may be fine for a 3/8 or 1/4” end mill; but not so much for a 1/16” (or smaller) one. Generally, the smaller the cutter, the tighter the run-out tolerance needs to be.



Good catch @RobinHood .

I'd only add that I would not let this push me into a very expensive collet set. I'd only buy one or two better small dimension collets if and when I hit the need for them. That's way less expensive than buying a whole set of really good ones. 

Also keep in mind that the advertised TIR is usually worst case. Most of the collets in the set will probably be much better than that. With some luck, that will be the small ones - unless you you have Murphy genetics.


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## PeterT (Aug 7, 2022)

I'm still looking for a good resource that shows some empirical clamping pressures of R8's. If anyone has stumbled on some useful info, please forward a link.
What I mean is this. R8-style are slit from the bottom only, cantilevered tangs if you will. The tangs can only bend inward as they are drawn up into the tapered seat. So if the collet bore is very close in size to the shank, there should be lets call it acceptable clamping area to a shank once torqued. But if the shank is undersize to the collet bore, say to the limit of  1/32" incremental set, I cant see any other outcome other than the collet pinches near nose area but less (or no?) contact deeper into the collet. Which cannot be great for holding bigger EM's or higher loads. I know lots of people who swear by R8 collets for end milling, but when I look at EM holders with a low tolerance bore & a big bejesus set screw to key the EM flat, it makes me wonder.

ER-style are slit from both ends so as they are collapsed, they reduce radially inward, which is what you want. I use an ER collet style for milling, moreso to span wider diameter variation & including metric/imperial. Its small so I never tax it, but its worked well so far.


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## CWret (Aug 7, 2022)

Wow guys - that is some really great info. As a recent member to this forum (actually the only forum I’ve joined) I continue to be impressed with the quality of conversations and willingness of members to help each other. 
I’ve been outside all day in this heat. Just came in to get ready to go to a street party. I only had time to quickly skip through your comments. I’ll have to digest this info and comment back tomorrow. 

Thanks again
Craig


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## Susquatch (Aug 7, 2022)

PeterT said:


> I'm still looking for a good resource that shows some empirical clamping pressures of R8's. If anyone has stumbled on some useful info, please forward a link.
> What I mean is this. R8-style are slit from the bottom only, cantilevered tangs if you will. The tangs can only bend inward as they are drawn up into the tapered seat. So if the collet bore is very close in size to the shank, there should be lets call it acceptable clamping area to a shank once torqued. But if the shank is undersize to the collet bore, say to the limit of  1/32" incremental set, I cant see any other outcome other than the collet pinches near nose area but less (or no?) contact deeper into the collet. Which cannot be great for holding bigger EM's or higher loads. I know lots of people who swear by R8 collets for end milling, but when I look at EM holders with a low tolerance bore & a big bejesus set screw to key the EM flat, it makes me wonder.
> 
> ER-style are slit from both ends so as they are collapsed, they reduce radially inward, which is what you want. I use an ER collet style for milling, moreso to span wider diameter variation & including metric/imperial. Its small so I never tax it, but its worked well so far.



I pondered this identical question back when I got my mill/drill about 10 years ago.

I don't have any empirical data. However, I can add a few observations.

My collets all have an internal  shoulder back about 40% of the way to the end of the slits. As a result, the collet only holds the end mill with 60% of its length.











The 60% mostly coincides (overlaps) with the R8 taper of the spindle itself. As a result, I believe I can say with confidence that any pinching starts at the rear of the end mill and progresses forward as the taper is tightened. The taper in the spindle is a fixed shape that cannot deform significantly because it has no slits. So in fact, your concern is mooted by the function and action of the R8 taper at the end of the collet.

Lastly, I don't think I know of anyone who would advocate using an r8 collet to hold anything but an endmill with a standard OD shaft. (1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 6mm & 12mm etc. They can be used with standard size drill bits too. Basically, the R8 collet should only be used with tools that have the same diameter as the rating for the R8 collet.

They should not really be used with non-standard drill bits (eg 15/32 in a 1/2" collet) - although I confess that I have done that a time or two. It's certainly not ideal.

If you follow these guidelines, there won't be any cantilevering like you describe.

I previously forgot to mention R8 end mill holders. These are R8 holders that have no slits at all. The hole is dimensioned to fit the intended end mill size perfectly and then clamped in place with a grub screw on a flat on the end mill - see photo above.

In summary, I have never had a problem with an R8 collet spinning on an end mill when they are properly matched.

However, I do have one 1/2 R8 Collet that has been spun and badly damaged by its previous owner. I would guess it was not properly tightened or a slightly smaller endmill was used than it was designed for.

Edit - added photos.

Edit 2 - Peter - most of the comments above are aimed at other readers. I know you know most of this already. But I didn't want to leave open comments with no substantiation for other readers.


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## Degen (Aug 7, 2022)

CWret said:


> I'm still thinking about pulling the trigger to buy my first mill (likely soon) - so I'm learning about tooling. I realize that starting off with the right collets (for your intended purpose) is quite important. I recently watched what Joe Pieczynski had to say about collets (Joe puts out a lot of good videos). The last 5 minutes of the video give a great visual explanation of the difference between R8 and R8-ER collets --  have a look @eric_brackenbury:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since I turned my mill into CNC I switch from R8 collets and R8 fix Weldon holders to R8-ER32 holders, 4 from Accusize (1 a smaller size and straight shank) and 1 from another supplier.

The main reason is Carbide tooling and the grip strength with the ER collets.

Disadvantages with each as follows:

Collets, grip limited by draw bar strength, limited size spread and grip range.

Weldon, need flats (Carbide has less chance of flats), also adds bending to bit, so true running is thrown of a bit.

ER need a mounting holder to achieve best hold, you have to build one.  I have 3 different slots mount on my work bench for this 2 are for ER32 on is for a smaller size (still for the mill but allows a deep reach small bit application also from Accusize so it still needs to mounted in a ER32 or R8 Collet).

Remember for me its about production and ease of set up moving from one size to another (my CNC does not have an Auto Tool Changer).


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## PeterT (Aug 7, 2022)

@Susquatch I suspect you are right. The implied rule or guideline is probably to size the nominal R8 bore for the nominal shank. Use a 1/2" collet for a 1/2" EM etc. We are assuming (or hoping) the shank will be ground just slightly undersize & it will grip as it should. Most of the HSS & carbides I have are about 1 thou under. In the IMP world, that makes for just a few collets because there actually aren't that many nominal shank sizes. The issue usually arises when discussing metric EM's or buying an incremental R8 set to span in-between distances & that's probably more what I was wondering about. Metric EM's (not always but typically) match nominal shank diameter to cutter diameter, so I assume that means metric R8's & a more complete incremental set is required. So that's what I mean, someone bought a 1/16" increment IMP R8 set, but I have my doubts that would be the right path to fit metric EM's as a rule just because it within the range on paper.


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## Degen (Aug 7, 2022)

One other thing I have seen soft R8 (emergency) collets that allow you machine the size you need.  I have never used them so beyond that can not comment.


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## CWret (Aug 8, 2022)

Our street party/bbq last night had about 60 attendees (not bad for just 24 residences) but it was a late night for a guy that is normally an early riser, so I'm a bit slow responding - but here goes.

I had a friend, Moose, who was considered an expert in his field. When questioned in court, he would say "I'm an expert because I made more mistakes than the other guy". I'm trying to avoid mistakes or poor purchases and appreciate all your comments. 

@RobinHood @Canadium - thanks for the clarifications on TIR

@Susquatch your post #75 had lots of good input. I should have been more specific about the mill I'm considering (2Hp is too vague). I'm looking at getting a large (over 850 pound) bench top RF-45 clone. 
You mentioned that an R8 with a drawbar can be tightened better/easier than an ER with a wrench - that answers a question that I forgot to ask.
Getting a small set of R8 1/16- 3/4 & 6mm& 12mm - great - if I'm only getting a few then higher quality makes good sense. I can add a complete set of ER32 later. 

@RobinHood @Susquatch - OK I'll give more importance to TIR when selecting smaller sizes

@Susquatch @PeterT @Degen - R8 end mill holder (weldon) - thanks for pointing out that option but I think they are overkill for me (at least for now)

@eric_brackenbury 
- thanks for getting this discussion started about collets
- I'm glad you added the link to your goldsmithing - nice work. I can certainly see where accuracy for you is very important
- lastly: When I was a young teenager, John DeGruchy (along with Francine and Annette) were frequent visitors to my parent's house. I'm guessing with your trials riding and age you likely knew him (for others, John is a Canadian Motorcycle Hall of Fame inductee). In the early 1970's I graduated from my Hodaka to a Bultaco Pursang (250 seniors class) that I bought from John at Sonic.


Thanks again everyone for this interesting and helpful information.
Craig


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