# New vise jaw product



## Janger (Apr 13, 2022)

I came across this new type of soft jaw which is adjustable - the Norgren Adaptix soft jaw. I thought this was a very interesting product. For a job shop wth low part runs I think this could save a lot of time designing and milling soft jaws. Unfortunately for home use it is out of reach - apparently $5995 USD. I'm thinking could I make one of these? Maybe something similar but simpler without replaceable jaw tips. 

https://cdn.norgren.com/pdf/z9892WP_Adaptix_Whitepaper_EN_LR.pdf


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## Susquatch (Apr 13, 2022)

Janger said:


> Unfortunately for home use it is out of reach - apparently $5995 USD. I'm thinking could I make one of these? Maybe something similar but simpler without replaceable jaw tips.
> 
> https://cdn.norgren.com/pdf/z9892WP_Adaptix_Whitepaper_EN_LR.pdf



I'll be following your thread on this idea John. Very very interesting! Please keep us posted.


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## Six O Two (Apr 13, 2022)

Oof. That is spendy! But it definitely ticks the boxes on the 'cool factor' front. 

For those of us on a budget...








						Fractal Vise by TeachingTech
					

A 3D printed fractal vise inspired by the original seen on a Hand Tool Rescue video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeOgGt_oWU I wanted to make my own version that was: Functional Fully constrained Printed without support material Used minimal filament Open source It works...




					www.thingiverse.com


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## Janger (Apr 13, 2022)

Six O Two said:


> Oof. That is spendy! But it definitely ticks the boxes on the 'cool factor' front.
> 
> For those of us on a budget...
> 
> ...


I was trying to find the post on that fractal vise but couldn't locate it. Searching on "vise" was a waste of time. and then I tried mandelbrot vise no luck there. Fractal! that's the word. That one is very cool but I can't imagine milling anything with it. Maybe if it was printed solid out of a high strength material - carbon fibre? Imagine how many spools you would need at $50 or $100 a spool. I think it would need to be made of steel realistically. 

I've asked Thomas Skinner how much that norgren vise jaw is. We will see but I can't imagine it being affordable. So I'm imagining a sandwich pack of aluminium 0.25" thick 2" by 4" jaws. 24 on each side. bolted together. I'll post some musings...


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## Janger (Apr 13, 2022)

Turns out Norgen the manufacturer has detailed CAD models on their web site. Hiding inside are some very sophisticated parts. The mechanism to hold all the vise fingers tight has some sliding angled bits. It has to hold all the fingers tight and also hold them tight against the side of the vise sled. below you can see this mechanism with parts hidden on the right, the same view on the left showing the vise sled and vise fingers, and below some of the insides of the sliding angle part. I don't understand it. inside there is a cone that has threads and somehow is connected to mvoe the sliding angled part?

$6K does not seem so unreasonable to me now - this must have taken a lot of design and testing work to get it working well. I wonder what it cost them to develop?


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## Janger (Apr 13, 2022)

Anyone interested on this page you can download the cad models.






						Norgren
					

Norgren is a world leader in motion and fluid control technologies, delivering exceptional solutions which improve our customers' equipment.



					www.norgrenworkholding.com


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## Janger (Apr 13, 2022)

Here is my first naive attempt. This is fun to work on.


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## Dabbler (Apr 13, 2022)

@Janger   I think you are referring to this video:


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## Everett (Apr 13, 2022)

Now that IS a cool idea! But yeah, reverse engineering something like that would certainly take some time. Like you say, the 6 grand starts making more sense.


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## Six O Two (Apr 13, 2022)

Janger said:


> ... I can't imagine milling anything with it. Maybe if it was printed solid out of a high strength material - carbon fibre? Imagine how many spools you would need at $50 or $100 a spool. I think it would need to be made of steel realistically.



Funny, one of the comments on the thingiverse site mentioned filling in the plastic voids left by infill with epoxy to make the part stronger. 

I'm not sure the 3d printed vise itself would be strong enough, but if one could use those parts as a starting off point, lop off the vise portion, and then have the fractal jaw mechanism somehow tie into a machine vise for support, maybe they'd be strong enough? Probably would depend on what material you're milling. I admit my knowledge of the forces involved and the strength of printed parts is not that deep.

This is a neat detail on the jaws. I like the step for a built in parallel.






Looks like a steel pin that they're placing into a hole in the aluminum jaw ends.





Hmm, actually -- looks like you have the choice of steel or aluminum for the pin. Yup, lots going on in that vise.

I look forward to seeing where your design ends up, @Janger !


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## Janger (Apr 14, 2022)

I started looking at the bottom - see the details in the fingers. Springs and dove tails.


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## Hacker (Apr 14, 2022)

Janger said:


> I started looking at the bottom - see the details in the fingers. Springs and dove tails.
> 
> 
> View attachment 23041
> ...


You are much braver then I am and I will be following and cheering you on. I saw the video that Dabbler posted awhile back and thought it would be great to try and build one. Several hours of poking around the internet I came to the conclusion that with my skill level this could be a life time of work.


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## RobinHood (Apr 14, 2022)

That sure is an unique design.

From their brochure, it looks like the Center section (that has their logo on it) is not adjustable. Probably to prevent uplifting of the movable sections, of which there are 6 on either side of the Center block.

The mechanism at the red locking knobs could be some sort of force multiplier and/or a locking system to allow the sections to slide and conform to the part once the vice is torqued down.


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## Susquatch (Apr 14, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> That sure is an unique design.
> 
> From their brochure, it looks like the Center section (that has their logo on it) is not adjustable. Probably to prevent uplifting of the movable sections, of which there are 6 on either side of the Center block.
> 
> The mechanism at the red locking knobs could be some sort of force multiplier and/or a locking system to allow the sections to slide and conform to the part once the vice is torqued down.



You might be right. 

I had assumed all the conforming was done first, then locked in, and then the resulting conformed jaw was tightened down as an assembly. But I have not looked as closely as you guys. I just looked quick and made a bunch of probably dumb assumptions.


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## Janger (Apr 14, 2022)

RobinHood said:


> That sure is an unique design.
> 
> From their brochure, it looks like the Center section (that has their logo on it) is not adjustable. Probably to prevent uplifting of the movable sections, of which there are 6 on either side of the Center block.
> 
> The mechanism at the red locking knobs could be some sort of force multiplier and/or a locking system to allow the sections to slide and conform to the part once the vice is torqued down.



You are right Rudy. Look at this jaw sled with the fixed center. It seems to be one piece. @Alexander How long would you say this sled would take to machine? It's about 7" wide by 4" long and  3.5" tall. Needs operations on all 6 sides.


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## Dabbler (Apr 14, 2022)

That is a cool piece. About 2 days to machine on a manual mill - perhaps less with the best cutters and work holding.


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2022)

Two days each for the two vise sleds. A day for the fingers. Another day on the cross bar finger locking parts. 
Another day for more stuff. 
7 days * 8 hrs * $75hr = $4200


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## DPittman (Apr 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> Two days each for the two vise sleds. A day for the fingers. Another day on the cross bar finger locking parts.
> Another day for more stuff.
> 7 days * 8 hrs * $75hr = $4200


Yes but if you make 10 or more of them surely you could cut that cost in half???!  Hahaha just kidding even at $2500 it would still be out of my price range.  But it sure is cool.


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> Two days each for the two vise sleds. A day for the fingers. Another day on the cross bar finger locking parts.
> Another day for more stuff.
> 7 days * 8 hrs * $75hr = $4200



Way out of my price range too. Not buying one and not making one either.

For the few situations where I needed that kind of jaw flexibility, I simply made a pair of epoxy jaws.  Just put the part between regular jaws make a close fitting box around the parts, line the box and the part with saran wrap, and pour the epoxy into the mold. Let it cure and then pull it apart.. The result is a pair of soft jaws that fit the vise and the part. There will be a few voids, but it will fit plenty good enough to withstand almost any working load I needed.

If an even tighter fit is needed, skip the saran wrap at the part and coat it with a release agent or shoe polish instead.


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Way out of my price range too. Not buying one and not making one either.
> 
> For the few situations where I needed that kind of jaw flexibility, I simply made a pair of epoxy jaws.  Just put the part between regular jaws make a close fitting box around the parts, line the box and the part with saran wrap, and pour the epoxy into the mold. Let it cure and then pull it apart.. The result is a pair of soft jaws that fit the vise and the part. There will be a few voids, but it will fit plenty good enough to withstand almost any working load I needed.
> 
> If an even tighter fit is needed, skip the saran wrap at the part and coat it with a release agent or shoe polish instead.


Interesting John - have you got a few pictures of that technique?


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> Interesting John - have you got a few pictures of that technique?



I'll have to see what i can find for you. If I can't find anything, maybe I can mock something up. I prolly have a few jaws laying around though. Let me see if I can find those. Give me a while. I have grandsons here for the Easter weekend and they all need a constant stream of fishing lines untangled, tackle repairs, etc etc.


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2022)

No fishing here John. The sky is dropping this white stuff all over.


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

@Janger - 50 degrees F here. I have a farm pond full of large mouth bass. Grandkids love it.


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## Darren (Apr 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> No fishing here John. The sky is dropping this white stuff all over.


Same here in Thunder Bay.  I'm so done with winter!


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## thestelster (Apr 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Way out of my price range too. Not buying one and not making one either.
> 
> For the few situations where I needed that kind of jaw flexibility, I simply made a pair of epoxy jaws.  Just put the part between regular jaws make a close fitting box around the parts, line the box and the part with saran wrap, and pour the epoxy into the mold. Let it cure and then pull it apart.. The result is a pair of soft jaws that fit the vise and the part. There will be a few voids, but it will fit plenty good enough to withstand almost any working load I needed.
> 
> If an even tighter fit is needed, skip the saran wrap at the part and coat it with a release agent or shoe polish instead.


Gentlemen...even better than epoxy is fusible alloys (Cerrosafe).  Take your part you want machined, place it in a metal box.  Put Cerrosafe in a pot with water, put on a hot plate.  Heat it up until the metal melts, pour everything into the box that holds your part, water and all.  Wait til it hardens.  Now do what you need to do.  The water prevents the alloy from getting to hot, because Cerrosafe melts below boiling temp of water.  When finished, put the whole thing in boiling water on the hot plate until your part comes loose.  Reuse the Cerrosafe.


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## PeterT (Apr 15, 2022)

I don't have a picture handy but tooling plates can go a long ways towards fixturing if the parts aren't too tall or the machining operations aren't too aggressive. Pic of mine being made for eventual use on my rotary table & lathe, but you get the idea - a grid of threaded holes. I also have rectangular one for holding in my mill vise. In conjunction with stops & something like Mitee Bite clamps, you can arrange for repeatable holding on various reference surfaces for odd surfaces.






						Mitee-Bite Products LLC. | Innovator of compact, low-profile edge clamps
					






					www.miteebite.com


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Gentlemen...even better than epoxy is fusible alloys (Cerrosafe).  Take your part you want machined, place it in a metal box.  Put Cerrosafe in a pot with water, put on a hot plate.  Heat it up until the metal melts, pour everything into the box that holds your part, water and all.  Wait til it hardens.  Now do what you need to do.  The water prevents the alloy from getting to hot, because Cerrosafe melts below boiling temp of water.  When finished, put the whole thing in boiling water on the hot plate until your part comes loose.  Reuse the Cerrosafe.



I use cerrosafe all the time. I have several bricks of it. But I have NEVER used it for that! 

That's one of many things I love about this forum. Incredible ideas out of nowhere! 

What @thestelster didnt say about Cerrosafe is its use as a casting metric. You can use to to get very accurate inside dimensions of bores. When you cast it, it shrinks a bit after it hardens so it can be removed and then a while later it returns to its original size so you can measure it and get a very precise measurement. That's what I use it for. 

But I love the idea of using it as a soft jaw! For most things you wouldn't even need a release agent. Just leave it there for the usage and then melt it away when done!


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## Dabbler (Apr 15, 2022)

This means that for some limited uses, babbett can be used in a pinch - what a great world!  thanks for mentioning cerrosafe - I've used it to cast chambers to help diagnose shooting problems, but never as a soft jaw - that is brilliant!


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## PeterT (Apr 15, 2022)

I keep meaning to try some Cerrosafe. So far I have dodged my tubing bending challenges where its also recommended to prevent kinks & collapsing, but I'm sure it will rear its head again. Where are you guys buying yours from? If I have a hot plate set at say 95C some suitable melting temp, what kind of pot container is recommended if I want to melt in there vs water?


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## Dabbler (Apr 15, 2022)

Brownells has some, which is where I got mine - but I gave mine away to a friend years ago.

To melt I just used a soup can, nothing fancy.


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2022)

thestelster said:


> Gentlemen...even better than epoxy is fusible alloys (Cerrosafe).  Take your part you want machined, place it in a metal box.  Put Cerrosafe in a pot with water, put on a hot plate.  Heat it up until the metal melts, pour everything into the box that holds your part, water and all.  Wait til it hardens.  Now do what you need to do.  The water prevents the alloy from getting to hot, because Cerrosafe melts below boiling temp of water.  When finished, put the whole thing in boiling water on the hot plate until your part comes loose.  Reuse the Cerrosafe.


@thestelster got any pictures? @Alexander @Dan Dubeau You guys ever use that technique in production?


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## 140mower (Apr 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> Same here in Thunder Bay.  I'm so done with winter!


Never really figured why you folks back east paint your yards white in the winter.....


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## Brent H (Apr 15, 2022)

I feel your pain @Darren


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Brent H said:


> View attachment 23086
> 
> I feel your pain @Darren



Wow.......


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Since we are talking boats now, I figured I'd share what it's like down by Lake Erie today. 

Two future coast gaurd hero's performing real-world search and rescue of a priceless bass lure that got trapped on an off-shore sand bar surrounded by fierce undertows and tiger frogs so big that they eat seagulls as snacks.


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## PeterT (Apr 15, 2022)

Brownells CerroSafe. They make some interesting points about this product vs. some of the other common names I hear about Cerrobend, Woodsmetal & other somewhat similar alloys





						BROWNELLS CERROSAFE® CHAMBER CASTING ALLOY | Brownells
					

There are various products on the market which can be used to make a cast of a gun chamber. To be certain that ...



					www.brownells.com
				





Canadian distributer








						CERROSAFE INGOT - Rusty Wood Trading Co.
					

CERROSAFE INGOT For chamber casting and various other projects 1/2 pound ingot $ 35.00 each 1 pound ingot $65.00 each This alloy has a low melting point, melting between 158º and 190º F, considerably lower than the boiling point of water. It is useful for making reference castings whose...




					www.rustywood.ca
				





Less cost per weight, but USA, not sure about shipping etc








						Cerrosafe (Bolton 160-190)
					

Bar Weight and Size = approximately 1 lb. / 4½" L x 1½" W x ½" H Non-Eutectic Alloy Melting Temperature 160-190º F or 71.7-87.8º C Density .341 lbs./In3 9.4 g/cc Shrinks initially, grows to .0000” in 1 hour and continues to grow to .0025”. Chamber Casting Alloy. Brownell Cerrosafe



					boltonmetalproducts.com


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## Brent H (Apr 15, 2022)

@PeterT - that is a crazy alloy. Wonder how many times it took to get that cooling time frame down pat.


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

Brent H said:


> @PeterT - that is a crazy alloy. Wonder how many times it took to get that cooling time frame down pat.



They provide a chart that lists time VS shrink. I can attest to the fact that their published claim is bang on. 

They make a point about the need to adhere to the heating process. I found that it attracts impurities after many uses so I'd recommend it only be used a few times for metrics but it could be used an almost unlimited number of times for soft jaws and similar tasks.


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## PeterT (Apr 15, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> When you cast it, it shrinks a bit after it hardens so it can be removed and then a while later it returns to its original size so you can measure it and get a very precise measurement. That's what I use it for.


See if I understand. After its cast & just cooled to solid, it has shrunk slightly so can slide out of the part? Then while resting slowly grows, at 30 min it equates to original dimensions? 
What does the 0.0025" refer to? Do they mean inch per inch?

Hmmm.. that could be useful for other things.

_Brownells> Unlike Woodsmetal which swells upon cooling and cannot be removed from a gun chamber, Cerrosafe shrinks during the first 30 minutes of cooling and then at the end of an hour, is EXACTLY chamber size. At the end of 200 hours it will have expanded approximately .0025". This factor is well known by all toolmakers and they will take it into consideration when making dies or reamers or gauges from your cast_


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## thestelster (Apr 15, 2022)

Janger said:


> @thestelster got any pictures? @Alexander @Dan Dubeau You guys ever use that technique in production?


I'll mock something up tomorrow morning.


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## Chicken lights (Apr 15, 2022)

Darren said:


> Same here in Thunder Bay.  I'm so done with winter!


I can’t deal with it anymore, it’s been the longest winter in 6-7 years


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## YYCHM (Apr 15, 2022)

Chicken lights said:


> I can’t deal with it anymore, it’s been the longest winter in 6-7 years


+++++ Tedious, won't quit


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## Janger (Apr 15, 2022)

I've been puzzling the problem today and came up with this. 

It's a vise jaw which bolts in to the kurt vise same as the usual hard jaws. There would be two of them mirrored.

The pink blocks bolt to the red bar and squeeze the light green fingers against the middle of the E. The pink bocks are then further held in place with set screws through the top. 

The jaw is 7.25" long by 4.5 wide and 2" tall. The fingers slide back and forth 1". I am thinking the big E would be milled from a solid block - but could one get away with making the 3 pieces from bar stock and bolting them to the back of the E perhaps with dowel pins? This would need more machining but it would use a lot less material than a solid block.

Machining the square holes to accurate heights of +/- 0.001" I think would be critical to prevent wobbling and lifting. The sides are less important. 

No idea if I am going to make this but it has been interesting thinking about it.


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## Susquatch (Apr 15, 2022)

PeterT said:


> See if I understand. After its cast & just cooled to solid, it has shrunk slightly so can slide out of the part? Then while resting slowly grows, at 30 min it equates to original dimensions?
> What does the 0.0025" refer to? Do they mean inch per inch?
> 
> Hmmm.. that could be useful for other things.
> ...



Yes, I believe you do understand. And yes, it is inches per inch. 

If I recall correctly, you can get more info on the Brownells website by clicking on an info tab or something like that and then downloading a pdf. 

Or you can go to the cerrasafe manufacturers website and get the info there. 

If that all fails, I'll create a pdf and upload it to a docushare facility of some kind.


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## Susquatch (Apr 16, 2022)

Janger said:


> I've been puzzling the problem today and came up with this.
> 
> It's a vise jaw which bolts in to the kurt vise same as the usual hard jaws. There would be two of them mirrored.
> 
> ...



I don't understand a few things John. Please forgive a few really dumb questions. But I can't provide any meaningful comments if I don't understand the basics.

Why only 3 fingers? Visually scaling it it looks like you need 6 in each opening of the E for a total of 12 fingers. 

And what is the center post of the E for? Are you clamping two parts simultaneously or is it a sort of gauging (or hard) finger?  If so, why isn't it skinny like the other fingers? 

And why is the whole fixture so big? At 4.5" wide, that's 9" for two of them. No room left in your Kurt for a part.


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## thestelster (Apr 16, 2022)

I have just posted the procedure on how to use fusible metals as a holding fixture onto "Tip of the Trade"


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I don't understand a few things John. Please forgive a few really dumb questions. But I can't provide any meaningful comments if I don't understand the basics.
> 
> Why only 3 fingers? Visually scaling it it looks like you need 6 in each opening of the E for a total of 12 fingers.
> 
> ...


Only 3 fingers -> I just didn't draw them all in yes I would need 12 of the movable fingers. The center post is fixed and here I'm copying the Norgen design which has a fixed center post too. I think it's because of jaw lift and the center post provides more rigidity. The Norgen one is also 0.75 wide. And it's big at 4.5" - My fingers move 1" back and forth which is more than the Norgen making it too long -  you maybe right that I will not have enough room. I'll have to go measure. Didn't think about that issue much.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

with the 12 movable fingers visible.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

top view


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

View showing the threaded holes in the hold down bar where the pink blocks attach and squeeze the fingers.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

@Susquatch you are right I'll get 1.45" of jaw opening space with it sized the way I have it. I guess that is why the Norgren fingers have less movement. I could make the red bar less wide say 0.5" instead of 1" and reduce the finger travel by another 0.5" that would add 2" total of additional space. Would the red bar then be too weak? It is not clear to me if preventing jaw lift is the job of the red bar or the friction between the fingers and the center fixed finger.


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## Susquatch (Apr 16, 2022)

And here is how I use epoxy in a similar way. I couldn't find any jaws I have made in the past.

This method works exceptionally well on fragile parts and even fancy wood such as carvings. You can fill in any voids that might trap a chuck of epoxy with modelling clay or playdoe.

The part I am using as an example is a socket that has a conical body. Just humour me and assume it's an irregular hard to clamp part.

Two pieces of ordinary wood are used to create the bowl. Cardboard works just as good. No real clamping takes place yet.

The part is placed in the vice and then two sheets of saran wrap are used to make a bowl on either side of the part. Sometimes the saran wrap can be separated with more cardboard.

The two bowls can then be filled with liquid epoxy. And left to cure. Everything is easily separated and the saran wrap conforms to the part surface due to the weight of the epoxy. It can, also be smooshed to the part as it cures if better conformance is needed.















Sometimes the two halves don't want to separate easily because of interfolds between the two layers of saran wrap. Therefore I like to pull everything apart after the epoxy firms up and sets, but before it fully cures. If you miss the window, a hacksaw along the seam almost to the part but not quite usually does the trick.

Think of the whole process a bit like casting softjaws but without the sand or furnace.

Ive never tried @thestelster 's cerrosafe method, but it's just been permanently added to my list of tricks N tips.

I believe Saran wrap can handle boiling water so I bet it could handle cerrosafe too.

Another advantage of making the safe jaws right in your vice is that the fit to the vice is guaranteed to be perfect too.

Ive also used small hand made carboard boxes, and even just two zip lock bags that are sized for the job. But very few things will conform to the part as well as saran wrap will.

Another thing I like about the cerrosafe is the fact that a separating wall isn't needed. Just melt the stuff away when the job is done.

Lots of twists on the same theme, and lots of ways to solve different problems.


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## PeterT (Apr 16, 2022)

One of the builders on model engine forum uses epoxy grouting/fixturing extensively for finicky parts. He also glues odd castings onto sacrificial blocks of MDF.
1/4 scale con rod example pics:
- mill side A profile to say 75% of depth
- grout the perimeter, now its a more stable 'solid' again
- flip the part, index fixture, mill side B remaining 25% (still retained by epoxy grout)
- heat the assembly, epoxy softens & out they come

I adopted the method for some of my parts & it works great (compound miter angle on small aluminum tubing parts). Any hardware grade 5-min epoxy will do. Actually preferable because it usually has a lower HDT.  I don't use a release agent or film because a) the micro machining surface actually helps bond the parts in place during machining b) once the epoxy softens under heat it just goes rubbery & self-releases anyways. c) depending on the shape (draft) can still get you into trouble releasing. Some post-heat cleanup might be required but its not onerous, bit of acetone & mild scuff pad. the epoxy has essentially failed thermally so isn't bonded very strong. This is important if you want to re-use the same fixture multiple times. Don't use your house oven, the post-heat does create a bit of stench odor. I find epoxy a bit more consistent & reliable vs. CA for most applications because you can build up a supporting fillet or fully pot it depending on the shapes involved. And mostly the heat release with epoxy is just a bit more predictable - when it turns a caramel brown, its ready to demold.

Apparently there are some re-useable waxes that can be used this way but it seems more special heating equipment is required on both ends of the operation


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

Both jaws.


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## Janger (Apr 16, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> And here is how I use epoxy in a similar way. I couldn't find any jaws I have made in the past.
> 
> This method works exceptionally well on fragile parts and even fancy wood such as carvings. You can fill in any voids that might trap a chuck of epoxy with modelling clay or playdoe.
> 
> ...



That is pretty neat John - do you buy the epoxy in two big 1 gallon jugs - $90 on amazon for example.?


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## Susquatch (Apr 16, 2022)

In my view, a little release agent is almost always a good thing with delicate parts. I like Brownells spray on release agent. I have several cans of it that I use sparingly because I worry about being able to get it reliably in the future. I have also used Johnson's wax (including the spray on variety) and 
shoe polish wax. It's easy to buff (just rub it with a soft cloth) to a very thin coating that is easily removed with some alcohol. Or just leave it there forever as a rust preventative. All depends what you are doing. 

Last but not least, wood parts sometimes need special care to avoid crushing it or damaging it. When hard epoxy just isn't appropriate, I often use Minwax High Performance Wood Filler. It's a two part epoxy too, but with totally different compressive and structural performance. It's much more like a wood product itself (and great for repairing rotted window/door jams too). 

You can pull the saran wrap away from the part a bit to leave behind a curved surface that won't leave a dent in the wood part when it is clamped down. I use this technique when I am inside milling an existing fancy finished wooden object that I don't want to damage with a regular wood clamp.


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## RobinHood (Apr 16, 2022)

Looks like on the Norgren design they replace both the fixed and movable jaw blocks with their “soft jaw” system. Not just the bolt-on, classically called “jaws”. This would give them most of the original vice capacity.

Could explain some of the cost of their system.


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## Dan Dubeau (Apr 16, 2022)

I watched a toolmaker I worked with many years ago fix some oddball part (can't remember what, by fixing it to the spindle to get the right orientation, then hot glue it into a little pocket in a block held in a vise.  When the glue set the part was held firm enough to finsih the machining he had to do.  I thought, man that's a great idea, so I brought in a hot melt gun and stuck it in the bottom of my box.  Many years later I was making these specialise collets and had to remachine one to a different size after a spec change, and struggled trying to machine something that flex so much.  I finally got it done after making a special mandrel and with a lot of fuss, and posted about it on another forum.  One of the guys said "I make stuff like that all the time, and use hot melt glue to fill the slots in the collet so it's easier to machine".  I thought, man that's a great idea, so I brought in a hot melt gun and stuck it in the bottom of my box.  Which is when i discovered I already had one in there the whole time....

I wish my memory was good enough to remember all the tips tricks and hints I've learned on the internet over the years.  I retain a lot, and have a really visual photographic memory.  But not all of it.  

Janger that vise is pretty cool.  Can think of a few things I've made over the years where it would be pretty handy.  The gears are turning right now......


----------



## PeterT (Apr 16, 2022)

I've tried hot melt & it was a fail, probably a function of my particular part shape (exact same fixture as post#53 & other attempts). I recognize the sticks come in different strength formulations. Mine is probably medium, but its still nowhere near as strong or rigid as epoxy. But I think a lot success/fail depends on the part & fixture & machining operation. If a part lends itself to being well potted (maybe what you mean by pocket), then the cutting forces are absorbed into the adhesive & all is well. If you have thin, finicky parts with less glue support it doesn't take much machining force to dislodge. End milling is probably worse than turning. Epoxy is good for things like thinning washers because it can be lightly clamped with an even layer of adhesive in the sandwich. More viscous glues like hot melt can set uneven. 

Clickspring uses CA all the time for thin stuff but he also uses a mandrel with grooves. I've used CA successfully too but it also has limitations. Without side support like what a more viscous adhesive can offer, the bond is entirely in shear. CA doesn't take interrupted cutting loads very well. I also find you have to heat higher/longer than epoxy to de-bond & its a gooier residue mess. The CA+masking tape trick is another bit of yeesh technique IMO. The problem is the tape adhesive breaks down with pretty much any kind of petroleum based cutting fluid & lower strength than CA itself.


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## Susquatch (Apr 16, 2022)

Janger said:


> Both jaws.
> 
> View attachment 23162



It all makes sense now John. And it's a great design for what you want it to do.

A few suggestions/comments.

I like the idea of that center part. It acts a bit like a hard stop on the part if everything else is pushed outward before closing the regular jaws. But I'd prolly make it thinner. Maybe the same size as the other ears.

If I were you, I'd make everything shorter. As we discussed earlier, that soft jaw design takes up most of your vise travel. In the absence of a design objective to the contrary, I'd prolly shoot for 1/3 Soft Jaw A, 1/3 Part, 1/3 Soft Jaw B. If anything different, perhaps 1/2 part and 1/4 each for the two jaws AFTER removing anything non-adjustable. That way the outside jawlets can always close around the part.

I would not fuss too much about the fit of the jawlets on their arbour. Let them move a bit but have rough surfaces for better clamping retention. I do think those pink clamping blocks need a good tight fit.

I hunger for vertical clamping conformity too Perhaps stacked  mini fingers.... LOL!

Ya, an epoxy pour is looking pretty good right now....


----------



## Susquatch (Apr 16, 2022)

Janger said:


> That is pretty neat John - do you buy the epoxy in two big 1 gallon jugs - $90 on amazon for example.?



Sorry, I missed this question for unexplained reasons. I was reviewing your design and spotted it. 

Sometimes my bride calls me "The Glue Man". It isn't a compliment. But perhaps it is deserved. I do keep a good selection of glues on hand. 

I also keep various kinds of epoxy on hand. 

My favorite is Devcon and I usually have several big cans of the putty steel and the liquid steel which are the absolute best for important jobs when strength is required. But it isn't cheap. And I prefer to weigh the two parts to get the right mix ratio. 

For small quantities I like the jb-weld because it's easy to mix at 50/50 and is quite forgiving. 

For lower strength, I like minwax high performance wood filler. It's cheap, easy to use, and very forgiving on the mix ratio. But not very strong. 

For general purpose work of all kinds, I keep a jug of Bondo Fiberglass Resin on hand. It's easy to mix, you can add fillers, and it sticks to darn near everything. You can get it darn near every place too - home hardware, Canadian Tire, Home  depot, etc etc. You can use all kinds of different fillers and dyes too from fiberglass to steel or aluminium swarf. Lots of that available in your own shop I bet...... Just stuff the cavity full of loose swarf, pour in the epoxy, and wait. 

Ive never tried that crystal clear stuff that Amazon sells but I bet it would work as well as the bondo. Someday I'll make a live edge table using that.


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## Janger (Apr 17, 2022)

I had another idea I worked on yesterday. To make more room for the fingers I went up above the vise jaw. So now the vise jaw is a fat one 2" thick and the fingers rest on top of that. This frees up about 4.5" for the part. The part would be up higher and require some innovation to use parallels. The red bar is also now 0.75" square instead of 1x2".


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## Susquatch (Apr 17, 2022)

Janger said:


> I had another idea I worked on yesterday. To make more room for the fingers I went up above the vise jaw. So now the vise jaw is a fat one 2" thick and the fingers rest on top of that. This frees up about 4.5" for the part. The part would be up higher and require some innovation to use parallels. The red bar is also now 0.75" square instead of 1x2".
> 
> View attachment 23171



I like it a lot John!


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## Janger (Apr 17, 2022)

It’s the mega cut. 2” by 7” diameter. 4140 log up the ramp and into the breach!


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## Susquatch (Apr 17, 2022)

Janger said:


> It’s the mega cut. 2” by 7” diameter. 4140 log up the ramp and into the breach! View attachment 23213View attachment 23214View attachment 23215



Love your visual story. "up the ramp and into the breach". I assume you are loading a cannon, so perhaps it should be breech. But that karate hand pose make me wonder.... If you plan to break that with your hand, I wanna watch!


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## Janger (Apr 17, 2022)

More steel.
More cuts.


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## Janger (Apr 17, 2022)

Testing clamping instead of set screws idea. Thanks Dabbler.


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## Alexander (Apr 18, 2022)

Janger said:


> How long would you say this sled would take to machine?


I don't have enough info to say but if you have the solid model I can add the tool path and we will get a pretty good idea of how long the cycle time will be


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## Degen (Apr 20, 2022)

Fractal Vise


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Degen said:


> Fractal Vise
> 
> View attachment 23301



That has to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen. A Banana peeler would be so handy. I bet you could use the banana holder for other things too......

Seriously though, there are a lot of parts on parts on parts on parts on that thing. Gotta wonder how rigid it is. Then again, if it's only used for holding soft parts, who cares! 

Very very cool! 

Where did you find that?


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## Degen (Apr 20, 2022)

Don't have one wish I did, saw a YouTube video of a restoration of one.  Search for Fractal Vise, original design is actual old.

Apparently they hold extremely solid as it is equal pressure contact.


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## Susquatch (Apr 20, 2022)

Degen said:


> Don't have one wish I did, saw a YouTube video of a restoration of one.  Search for Fractal Vise, original design is actual old.
> 
> Apparently they hold extremely solid as it is equal pressure contact.



Thank you! Here is an article on it. 









						Open-Source Tools: 3D Printed Fractal Vise
					

An incredible 100-year-old fractal vise was revitalized as a 3D printable tool following a popular restoration YouTube video, and makers love it!




					m.all3dp.com
				




Very very cool!


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## Degen (Apr 20, 2022)

Here is the YouTube video


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

I got this test piece made. Even doing up the bolt as tight as I can the middle still slips by tapping with a hammer. The part is only clamping the middle in one tiny place - light is visible all around that spot. I could extend the saw slit into the back half. The walls are 1” wide and 1/2” thick. Ideas?


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## Degen (Apr 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> I got this test piece made. Even doing up the bolt as tight as I can the middle still slips by tapping with a hammer. The part is only clamping the middle in one tiny place - light is visible all around that spot. I could extend the saw slit into the back half. The walls are 1” wide and 1/2” thick. Ideas?


3 more holes (one in each corner) to allow the corners more flex which will allow the unit to clamp equally on all sides.

This way it will act more like a band.


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## Susquatch (Apr 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> I got this test piece made. Even doing up the bolt as tight as I can the middle still slips by tapping with a hammer. The part is only clamping the middle in one tiny place - light is visible all around that spot. I could extend the saw slit into the back half. The walls are 1” wide and 1/2” thick. Ideas?



I think @Degen s suggestion will help, but maybe not enough. Fundamentally there are no forces to shrink the bottom or the left leg. And even the top leg will struggle on the left side. Bending will not close the gap at the legs. 

I can't think of a way to rescue it beyond what @Degen suggests though. I'll sleep on it.


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

@Degen err like this?


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

The real goal here is the clamping on the vise jaw of the orange 1x1x1 block. My original intent was to put set screws in the top and just push down on the orange block. @Dabbler thought it would be weak and suggested a clamping structure. Hence the test above. I could put set screws on two or three sides. ?

I just had another thought - the top could be a separate unit completely ie saw all the way across and then use two bolts one on each side at the top. maybe that is the simplest way.


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

like this....


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## Susquatch (Apr 21, 2022)

Hey @Janger, I've gone to bed but noodling your problem. I've forgotten what it is you are trying to do here. Can you point me to the goal? 

Even thinking on it for a while hasn't changed my view. Your setup is only clamping on the screw leg. All the other legs are way stronger than the screw and are not going to clamp anything. Even if they bent, the overall length will exceed remain the same. It really isn't like a band that slips. It's more like blocks that won't compress. And even if they could, the center block is weaker than they are so it will still be loose. 

Even cutting slits all the way around (inside or outside) will not likely solve the compression/bending issue because of the square shape. But it will help. 

You might gain significantly though by using two screws on an angle. Essentially pulling two V blocks together. That way each screw acts on two legs and all legs can be shortened to clamp the center block.


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## Degen (Apr 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> @Degen err like this?
> 
> View attachment 23368


Yes sort of, basically thin the corners to allow flex there.


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## Susquatch (Apr 21, 2022)

The two screws will be better but angular would be better still.

Really stupid idea. Why does the orange block need to clamp at all? Why can't the blocks float? As long as all the ears are clamped in compression, they will act as an assembly and once the play (let's call it backlash) is taken up, the assembled system will clamp.


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## Susquatch (Apr 21, 2022)

Another thought @Janger.  

I think what @Dabbler was thinking is that only vertical clamping was needed. In that case, no bending is required and neither is system flex. Two screws will do the trick and need not be angular. Just a regular two sided clamp if you will.


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Hey @Janger, I've gone to bed but noodling your problem. I've forgotten what it is you are trying to do here. Can you point me to the goal?
> 
> Even thinking on it for a while hasn't changed my view. Your setup is only clamping on the screw leg. All the other legs are way stronger than the screw and are not going to clamp anything. Even if they bent, the overall length will exceed remain the same. It really isn't like a band that slips. It's more like blocks that won't compress. And even if they could, the center block is weaker than they are so it will still be loose.
> 
> ...


What can't the orange blocks just float? I think because the orange blocks do two things. The first is clamp the fingers from both ends against the middle vise jaw block. The second though is I think the red bar will tend to flex or vibrate up down and back/forth. Having the orange block locked in place I think would minimize that movement.


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## Susquatch (Apr 21, 2022)

Janger said:


> The second though is I think the red bar will tend to flex or vibrate up down and back/forth. Having the orange block locked in place I think would minimize that movement.




Perhaps they will at first, but I would think that once everything is tightened down and they reach the end of their travel in the bigger assembly, they won't move anymore. 

Anyway John, I have some medical tests first thing tomorrow morning so I gotta get some sleep. I'll try to catch up tomorrow.


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 21, 2022)

I don’t understand the orange block and how it puts pressure on the fingers.....  help me out @Janger


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## YYCHM (Apr 21, 2022)

Maybe 3D print a mock up to analyze?


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

@kevin.decelles 

Here quick picture...


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## Janger (Apr 21, 2022)

I’ll post a clearer explanation tomorrow.


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## Dabbler (Apr 21, 2022)

@JangerClamping along the blue lines is to resist the force of the part, and the resistance through the hole should be greater...

I had intended (but I probably forgot to mention that it should be relieved along the red lines.  I hope this is a little better explanation.


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## Susquatch (Apr 22, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @JangerClamping along the blue lines is to resist the force of the part, and the resistance through the hole should be greater...
> 
> I had intended (but I probably forgot to mention that it should be relieved along the red lines.  I hope this is a little better explanation.
> 
> ...



I like these improvements @Janger .  I'd also add a vertical slit at the bottom right.

What @Dabbler s slits do is provide for some compression in the other columns. Those big steel columns need to do more than bend a bit - they need to compress. But the big steel blocks cannot be easily compressed with a small screw. The compression will be insignificant. The slits allow for some spatial compression in the gaps not in the steel. I'd make those slits quite long. In fact, size the remaining piece (uncut portion) about the same size as the screw. There is no point in bigger than that anyway. Lots of nuances in there about how fasteners work as well as the distribution of stress and strain in the part.

That said, I think two screws - one on each side - is a superior solution. This allows for 100% compression of the two side columns. As you visualize what the two screws do to the block, I think you can begin to see the issue with the one screw version. The two screws put compression into both side columns, (but still leave the top and bottom uncompressed). Of course the slits help solve that in the one screw version.

In my mind, I am visualizing a simplified finite element model of your parts. That is to say, break the components of the outside block into multiple blocks in your mind. When you do this, you can begin to see how each adjacent element influences the one next to it and so forth around the outside block. If you do this for your original design, you can watch (in your mind) the top bar bending (somewhat like a cantelever) down on the right. But there are only very low forces to pull it to the right as the screw is tightened. The only forces doing that are the restraining forces in the left column that are trying to stop the top bar from bending. They are somewhat like the anchor for the cantelever. But this effect gets dramatically reduced for each leg. In addition to providing space for compression, the slits help turn the hinge points into quasi unrestrained fulcrums for the other three joints.

The two screw version provides raw vertical clamping but no side clamping.

All this said, unless the complete assembly is different than what I think it is, I still don't see why clamping is required at all. I would just make it a vertical slip fit and let the backlash look after itself as the outside jaws are tightened. Think of this a bit like a part put between two (or three) jaws. As the Jaws tighten, the first ones contact the part, and then the part slides until it hits the second, and then the second and the parts slide until they hit the third, and then when no more sliding is possible, compression clamping begins.


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## kevin.decelles (Apr 22, 2022)

Janger said:


> I’ll post a clearer explanation tomorrow.


Thx John, 'cause I'm still not 'getting' it.  From the other pictures, the red bar went 'through' the fingers, not sure where the clamping force comes from.  We can take this offline -- I don't want to derail this great thread.


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## Susquatch (Apr 22, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> Thx John, 'cause I'm still not 'getting' it.  From the other pictures, the red bar went 'through' the fingers, not sure where the clamping force comes from.  We can take this offline -- I don't want to derail this great thread.



@Janger - please don't take it off line. This discussion is part of the big picture for this novel vise.


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## Susquatch (Apr 22, 2022)

kevin.decelles said:


> Thx John, 'cause I'm still not 'getting' it.  From the other pictures, the red bar went 'through' the fingers, not sure where the clamping force comes from.  We can take this offline -- I don't want to derail this great thread.



If I understand it (good chance I don't - but it's useful to know what others are thinking) the red bar is actually 2 or 3 parts that are tightened longitudinally through the axis of the red bar to clamp all the fingers in whatever geometry they arrive at after adjusting to the profile of the part. This locks the profile in place.

Subsequently the entire finger assembly gets clamped against the part by another tightening mechanism working in the direction of the overall clamp.


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## Janger (Apr 22, 2022)

Great conversation everyone thank you. 

Here I finished the test with additional saw cuts. It works much now - you can see the right side gap is noticeable closed. It no longer moves with hammer blows so it’s tight.


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## Janger (Apr 22, 2022)

Ok here is how this is supposed to clamp the fingers. First picture shows the red bar it is 0.75"x0.75". You can see it is slightly inset against the fingers. Now look at the second picture. The orange block is is 1x1x1". Bolts go through it into the red bar. Because the red bar is smaller and shorter this means as the orange block is tightened against the red bar the orange block pushes against the fingers squeezing them against the green center part of the vise. The other end of the red bar is the same, the orange block at the other end is also tightened in the same manner. Both orange blocks then squeeze the fingers against the immovable center block. see picture 3 to see the vise jaw block.


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## Susquatch (Apr 23, 2022)

@Janger, glad it works!

What I am keenly interested in at this point is how the entire assembled vise works. Do you have any drawings of that yet?

Are you using Fusion 3D? I think I may have solved my problem there. I was reading about @Dabbler rescuing an old gaming laptop for his needs and I realized one of my sons has one gathering dust. I may need to add memory, but with a gaming heritage I'm guessing it will run Fusion. It would be nice to have that capability in my shop.


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## Susquatch (Apr 23, 2022)

Janger said:


> Ok here is how this is supposed to clamp the fingers. First picture shows the red bar it is 0.75"x0.75". You can see it is slightly inset against the fingers. Now look at the second picture. The orange block is is 1x1x1". Bolts go through it into the red bar. Because the red bar is smaller and shorter this means as the orange block is tightened against the red bar the orange block pushes against the fingers squeezing them against the green center part of the vise. The other end of the red bar is the same, the orange block at the other end is also tightened in the same manner. Both orange blocks then squeeze the fingers against the immovable center block. see picture 3 to see the vise jaw block.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you only need one through bolt. If the bolt goes all the way through from one side to the other, it will pull both orange blocks together simultaneously against the center block. You can use a bigger bolt that way and only have to tighten once. 

Btw, I'm still thinking you don't really need that square clamping system. Just take up the backlash and go .....


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## CWret (Apr 23, 2022)

This has been an interesting read. 
I think the 2 screw cap is a better clamping approach to clamp down on the orange blocks. Tightening the caps would be after the horizontal bolt has the fingers tight. I agree with @Susquatch 's comments about V-block effect vertically holding down the cap and his comment to use a set screw to lock the orange block horizontally, but if the caps are very secure bearing down on the orange blocks then the horizontal set screws are likely not required. I suggest adding a keyway to the column/cap to help make the cap more secure on the orange blocks (see the attached crude pic). Note: when tightened down, the cap would not bottom out on the keyway. 
Craig


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## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> @Janger, glad it works!
> 
> What I am keenly interested in at this point is how the entire assembled vise works. Do you have any drawings of that yet?
> 
> Are you using Fusion 3D? I think I may have solved my problem there. I was reading about @Dabbler rescuing an old gaming laptop for his needs and I realized one of my sons has one gathering dust. I may need to add memory, but with a gaming heritage I'm guessing it will run Fusion. It would be nice to have that capability in my shop.


I don't have any other drawings yet - just this 3d model. Yes this is all Fusion 360. @Dabbler was trying to use Fusion 360 on an older machine - the limiting factor seemed to be RAM. 8GB just wasn't enough. I have 16GB on my 5 year old macbook pro laptop and it works pretty decent.


----------



## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I think you only need one through bolt. If the bolt goes all the way through from one side to the other, it will pull both orange blocks together simultaneously against the center block. You can use a bigger bolt that way and only have to tighten once.
> 
> Btw, I'm still thinking you don't really need that square clamping system. Just take up the backlash and go .....


One bolt seems like a good idea - I was thinking twisting forces with one bolt might be a problem with the red bar trying to rotate on it's axis. Probably over worrying that as the fingers should hold it tight.

For the square clamping system it may not be needed - but I need to mill those square holes. The middle column one is especially tricky. Need a 4" reach through the side square 1x1" hole down to the middle column. So instead if I have top clamps then it will be easy to mill the square hole from the top of the vise jaw.


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## CWret (Apr 23, 2022)

Agreed. Clamping cap on middle column good approach. Helps to tighten down on fingers and also after set-up the third cap is easy


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## Susquatch (Apr 23, 2022)

Janger said:


> I don't have any other drawings yet - just this 3d model. Yes this is all Fusion 360. @Dabbler was trying to use Fusion 360 on an older machine - the limiting factor seemed to be RAM. 8GB just wasn't enough. I have 16GB on my 5 year old macbook pro laptop and it works pretty decent.



Great, I'd bet it already has 16Gb but if not I'm sure it can be loaded up with more. The worst that could prolly happen would be have to pitch what it has to get a larger pair. I'm pretty sure it already has Win 10 on it. 

When I look at Autodesk's website, the have 360 everything. And I don't see any reference to hobby use of Fusion 360.  Would you be so kind as to send me a link to the hobby version?


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## Susquatch (Apr 23, 2022)

Janger said:


> One bolt seems like a good idea - I thinking twisting forces with one bolt might be a problem with the red bar trying to rotate on it's axis. Probably over worrying that as the fingers should hold it tight.
> 
> For the square clamping system it may not be needed - but I need to mill those square holes. The middle column one is especially tricky. Need a 4" reach through the side square 1x1" hole down to the middle column. So instead if I have top clamps then it will be easy to mill the square hole from the top of the vise jaw.



Yes, I was looking at the center piece and wondering how you would machine it. Caps on all three posts would solve many many issues.

I'm anxious to see the entire assembly. I'm thinking that whole square center piece (both orange and red) does not really need to be square. If the bottom of the Fingers ride on the bottom of the E, they will be flat enough. If not, then one long flat cap that covers the fingers and the E from end to end will force them all flat. The sliding forces between the fingers will never be enough to move them when they are clamped together in a stack - especially if they are not polished.


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## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

Fusion 360 | 3D CAD, CAM, CAE, & PCB Cloud-Based Software | Autodesk
					

Fusion 360 is software for 3D CAD, modeling, manufacturing, industrial design, electronics & mechanical engineering. Subscribe or download for free.




					www.autodesk.ca
				



but then scroll to the bottom and look at the left side - hobby version. You have to sign up and qualify...


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## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

top clamps...


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## Susquatch (Apr 23, 2022)

Janger said:


> Fusion 360 | 3D CAD, CAM, CAE, & PCB Cloud-Based Software | Autodesk
> 
> 
> Fusion 360 is software for 3D CAD, modeling, manufacturing, industrial design, electronics & mechanical engineering. Subscribe or download for free.
> ...



THANK YOU. I was missing the scroll to the bottom part. 

I didn't know I have to qualify. Any tips on what to say and not to say?


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## Tom O (Apr 23, 2022)

Outsidescrewball shows one at about 18:30 he just received and says a video will follow.


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## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

Top clamp test moved in the vise while milling. Way out of whack. Trying number two. Cleaned clamping surfaces and Pushed hard on the  Kurt supplied handle not my speed handles. 






Speed handle - usually they are fine but sometimes I get into trouble.


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## Janger (Apr 23, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> THANK YOU. I was missing the scroll to the bottom part.
> 
> I didn't know I have to qualify. Any tips on what to say and not to say?


Well you can’t be making any money. I think that’s the main thing. Ie non commercial.


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## Susquatch (Apr 24, 2022)

Janger said:


> Well you can’t be making any money. I think that’s the main thing. Ie non commercial.



OK, I went ahead and went to create an account and discovered I already had one. I think I signed up so I could download the viewer so I could look at my field tile layouts. 

Anyway, that has potentially turned into a blessing. 

I was able to download and install Fusion 3D on my son's laptop. It has lots and lots of errors I think mainly stemming from my snail speed internet connection cuz the errors go away if I wait. 

It is up and running now so it looks like I already got previously approved for non-commercial use. I guess we will see shortly when I try to create a drawing. 

Anyway, I have lots to do outside today so I'm gunna quit using it for now. 

So thank you @Janger . I really appreciate your help getting me going. I'll prolly post subsequent questions in another thread.


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## Susquatch (Apr 24, 2022)

Tom O said:


> Outsidescrewball shows one at about 18:30 he just received and says a video will follow.



I thought I was gunna die watching this. Holy crap it's boring and lifeless and useless. SO I REALLY APPRECIATE your tip to wind ahead to 18:30.  I skipped ahead and watched the piece on the Norgren Vise. That was worth the pain. Now I can see what @Janger is trying to accomplish........ I think...... LOL!


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## Janger (Apr 24, 2022)

Top clamping...

Material between bottom of cap head screw cap and bottom of clamp is 0.085". Too thin? I wanted the clamps to be below of the surface of the fingers but I suppose if it is the same that is fine. I could make the clamps 0.1" taller making the material between the bottom of the caphead screw 0.185" thick.


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## Janger (Apr 24, 2022)

Try 2 better.


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## Susquatch (Apr 24, 2022)

Janger said:


> Try 2 better.
> View attachment 23427



Looking good John!

Why only two posts?


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## Janger (Apr 24, 2022)

Just testing before I commit a big piece of metal to making the vise jaws.


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## Dabbler (Apr 24, 2022)

To make the clamp stronger without sacrificing height, consider countersink screws instead.  They retain more of the parent material. 

--9 thousandths is too little;  .185 is not too bad.


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## RobinHood (Apr 25, 2022)

Janger said:


> Top clamping...
> 
> Material between bottom of cap head screw cap and bottom of clamp is 0.085". Too thin? I wanted the clamps to be below of the surface of the fingers but I suppose if it is the same that is fine. I could make the clamps 0.1" taller making the material between the bottom of the caphead screw 0.185" thick.
> 
> View attachment 23421View attachment 23422View attachment 23423


You could use low profile SHCS like these to regain the strength in your clamp bottom without sacrificing any of the other design features as the counter sink will be shallower thus leaving more material on the bottom.


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## Hacker (Apr 26, 2022)

Janger said:


> Top clamping...
> 
> Material between bottom of cap head screw cap and bottom of clamp is 0.085". Too thin? I wanted the clamps to be below of the surface of the fingers but I suppose if it is the same that is fine. I could make the clamps 0.1" taller making the material between the bottom of the caphead screw 0.185" thick.
> 
> View attachment 23421View attachment 23422View attachment 23423


Not sure if this will work, why not leave the top on solid and use setscrews in the side for clamping the holder? I have been following this for awhile and have finally figured out how this is going to work. Very clever.


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## Janger (Apr 26, 2022)

Hacker said:


> Not sure if this will work, why not leave the top on solid and use setscrews in the side for clamping the holder? I have been following this for awhile and have finally figured out how this is going to work. Very clever.


Hacker I could do that and originally thought I would but thinking about how to make the square holes I decided top clamps would make the milling of the slot far easier. see post 106.


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## Janger (Apr 26, 2022)

I did another test of the slot. The previous attempt the slot ended up being 0.950". I tracked down that problem to using a 1/2" EM in the program but the machine had a 12mm EM. That accounted for most of the 0.050" too small. However I did the job again using an adaptive tool path and 0.15" step downs. See picture and you can see the milling lines showing the adaptive pattern. Results however were still a bit small. The slot measures 0.995" wide at the top and 0.990 at the bottom. It should be 1.000". 

I have a couple ideas - #1 don't use adaptive instead use straight slot milling. #2 just run the program again and see if a spring pass removes that remaining 0.005 to 0.010". Thoughts ?


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## RobinHood (Apr 27, 2022)

Looks like you are getting tool deflection.

Spring pass(es) would help.

I would get a 7/8” finishing EM in there. It is way stiffer than a 1/2” EM. Then sneak up on the 1.00” dimension with it.


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## CWret (Apr 30, 2022)

- I agree with @RobinHood that deflection appears to be the issue and a larger EM would help or eliminate the problem (pardon my total lack of milling experience, but I don't know the meaning of "spring passes"). Keeping the EM as short as possible will also help.
- At the start of cutting down into the notch, the material below the EM is keeping the relatively short columns from defecting and any deflection is coming from the EM. But during the last few passes, the increasing height of the columns could cause the columns to deflect. Then both the EM and the column height are contributing to the total deflection (particularly if the columns were thinner or taller). I think this problem would be worse if you rough-cut the notch ID to say 0.980" and then did a full-height finish cut of 0.010" off of both columns.
- It appears that you are clamping the bottom of the part (pic in post 109) and you are milling in a N-S direction (y-axis). Consider rotating the part 90 degrees, lower it as low as possible in the vise and then mill E-W (x-axis) so that the vise jaws can (help) keep the columns from deflecting. Alternately, If you want to mill N-S (because of program, view, where you put your beer, or whatever) then rotate both the vise and the part 90 degrees so that you can lower the part in the vise.

Craig


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## Janger (May 8, 2022)

I've been working on the E shaped vise jaw. Some progress pictures above. Spring passes with a 1/2" EM solved the gap problem. In picture three that is a 3/4" carbide EM. The machining was perhaps 2 hours of machine time. I ran it pretty conservative.


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## Janger (May 8, 2022)

Next up tapping.


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