# Restoration/Repairs on a 10" LD Utilathe - Standard Modern



## Brent H (Jun 6, 2019)

So a few weeks ago I purchased a 10' LD Standard Modern Utilathe  serial number U530.  The serial number is a bit like a submarine so I hope this project stays afloat and the lathe doesn't become a dive site somewhere.  I have not had much time to do anything with it, basically get it home to the shop and leave for work and so far I have been vicariously making plans and some parts by texting my son and getting him to send me pictures.

Research through all the Standard Modern sites and you tube videos has proven to be somewhat beneficial, however, the 10" Utilathe seems to be somewhat lacking of any accurate detailed description.  I have the manual for the 12 x 30 and it has reference to the 10 x 20 - some specifics in the parts section and a few measurements.  

If all goes as per plan, I hope to create my own manual for the unit with accurate description and proper parts - with sources.  So far I have been able to track down the Gits Oil cups and have those ordered and on the way and I have gone through the bearings (according to the manual) and have been able to find the Oilite bushings, needle bearings, and the SKF roller bearings.  

If anyone out there has worked on this particular model, perhaps they can let me know if the bearing list in the manual is accurate - is the Timkin 18720&18790 the "as fitted" bearing/race or is it different  - the 12 x 30 is listed with a threaded spindle where as the 10" I have has a D1-3 .  Also there is a bearing fitted to the change gearbox upper shaft listed as a 6202-ZZ but this is crossed out and someone penciled in 3204....hmmmm

I am also converting (very slowly) some of the drawings of the 1120 1324 models into autocad so I can possibly machine a few of the parts that are the same.  Bigger projects will include making a taper attachment, steady rest and other items 

So far I have made up a new cast Iron 2 step drive pulley  for the unit and will getting the original 1 hp, 220 volt 3 phase motor cleaned up and ready for action.  

I am planning to use a VFD to convert the shop power for 3 phase.  I have one on my mill and it works great.  The VFD is a 3 Hp rated one so I should also be able to program the ramping to allow for some dynamic breaking when stopping the motor. 

There is some minor damage at the face of the compound - will try a repair there and I will be making a new cast iron gib for the cross feed (brass one fitted right now).

If anyone has any advice/knowledge/documentation/parts It would be great!

Here is a couple pictures as set into the shop - nothing done at all


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## RobinHood (Jun 6, 2019)

Hi Brent, have you tried to contact SM to get an electronic manual from them? I have had good success in the past. Just give them the serial number and they should usually be able to send you documents for your specific model and even give you possibly the year of manufacture/shipping year to the first owner of the lathe.

I used to own a 9” Utilathe.

Now I have a SM1120 and a SM1340. The bearings listed in the parts section of the 1340 manual has been accurate.

I completely disassembled and reassembled these three lathes to get years of grime off them in order to bring them back to life. The 9” Utilathe has since been beautifully restored by its current owner.


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## Brent H (Jun 6, 2019)

Hey there Robin Hood, Thanks for the intel 

Yes, I wrote to them and I was sent a manual - same one as I had from on line - it is the 12 x 30 manual and includes parts for the 10 x 20 - the only 2 things not clear on is the spindle bearing  as the 12 x 30 came stock with a threaded spindle nose and the 10 x 20 came with a D1-3. Perhaps it is a different bearing than the Timkin 18720 & 18790 in the manual?  I believe your 1120 and 1340 have D1-4 spindle noses and the bearings are listed as a Timkin 387A (2) and 384ED - which has conical bearings forward and aft facing.  The bearing on the 12x30 is only one direction and from the manual picture it is set to absorb load in the direction of the head stock.  The other difference is the manual I have has the 6202 changed to a 3204 which are way different size.?   Could be a home modification? 

I am off on the ship right now so I will not be able to get at the lathe until Wednesday next week - bummer - was just putting info together and tracking down the parts.  All the bearings and little oil cups  and a few other things I have found without a problem.  I am hoping to build most of the other parts needed if possible - could be an exercise in futility - LOL - but hope to teach my son some machining/fabrication along the way.













Those are couple pictures of the pulley that I made out of cast iron  - the center is a 1-1/4" piece of steel to a.- give me a bit of a mandrel to turn the piece and b.- I had to fill a void that was in the cast iron.  The shaft I machined a few thou oversize and pressed/red loctited it into place. The motor shaft size is 5/8" and I bored that to size after drilling close (19/32).  I used a boring bar arrangement with a 3/16" HSS square tool bit to slowly broach a key way.  It worked quite well and the fit on a proper electric motor shaft is very nice.  I statically balanced the pulley as there was another void on the backside that created a small vibration.  Ran it up to 1800 rpm on the lathe and it seems to run quite true.  It has a set screw down the center of the small wheel to retain it on the shaft.


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## RobinHood (Jun 6, 2019)

Brent H said:


> Perhaps it is a different bearing than the Timkin 18720 & 18790 in the manual?


That I don’t know.

Yes, the D1-4 spindles have double 387A cones and a 384ED cup.

Is the 3204 on the output side of the QCGB onto the lead screw? If it is, that makes a lot of sense since a 3204 is a double row angular contact ball bearing. It keeps the lead screw axially located for both LH and RH threading. It could be a factory design change /upgrade from the early serial number models which may have had a 6202 ball bearing initially.

Great job on the step pulley. Looks good.

Getting the kids interested in troubleshooting and machining/fabricating is a great thing as well.


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## Brent H (Jun 14, 2019)

So I got home on Wednesday and had a few hours to take a look at things and asses the situation with the lathe.  All in all it looks like a few very careless folks attempted to use the lathe but overall it is in good condition for a refirb.

My son and I went at it last night and pretty much stripped it down in a couple hours.  I found several Parts list errors - the bearing I was asking about is a 3202 (makes sense for size compared to the original 6202) so the written in 3204 is not correct.  The belt is a 5L330 and it looks new on my machine so that is good.

I pulled the entire thing apart and checked everything - the rear spindle bearing was NFG so I ordered all new bearings for the head and it was only $100 including shipping for all skf and timkin bearings.  The main spindle bearing is a single race 18790/18720 (a basic wheel bearing) so the the rear spindle bearing is a deep race 6207-2RS with a threaded nut backing it up so you can put some pre-load on the forward Tinkin assembly.

The gears looked very good - very surprising but that was good to see.  It does not appear much threading was done on the unit and the thread screw is in great condition.  The feed box had some crud in the detents so whoever was using it probably just set it and left it.  The feed gears do have some mash wear, I will see what they cost but I might make them later in the lathes life, they still engage ok.

The only bummer is the lathe chuck (6" three jaw D1-3 mount).  It dialed in right on the nuts (outer diameter) when I was running tests......BUT....somebody ground the jaws or spun a stone in the jaws as they clamp round stuff almost side ways.....well ....not that bad but a couple degrees.  My test piece was out maybe a 1/4 inch at the end.   So that is not great and I will need a new chuck - I am going to grind the jaws for the heck of it but it is probably toast.  The chuck is a Victoria - made in England, probably original...alas.

Between centers the lathe was bang on and didn't vary over the 20 inch travel.  The bed drops over the 20 inches about 0.010" and stays 0.000 across the chuck face so that is pretty decent for a lathe as old or older than me .

I will get pictures up at some point.  Trying to get things fixed and back all running as I have a few projects on the go...LOL.  I will also try to get an overhaul manual thing together with an updated parts list - the seals and the Oilite bushings have other numbers now etc.  I am stripping the lathe and re-painting close to original grey - I will end up ford tractor grey I think.....maybe pink?  LOL

If anyone has one of these and has a question, let me know, I have a lot of pieces right now...haha


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## Tom O (Jun 15, 2019)

Take a look at this on trueing up the chuck jaws.
https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,4145.msg45159.html#msg45159


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## trlvn (Jun 16, 2019)

Tom O said:


> Take a look at this on trueing up the chuck jaws.
> https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,4145.msg45159.html#msg45159


Um, I can't see any pictures in that thread and it makes it pretty much impossible to follow.  

Craig


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

Sorry for the long delay but lots of stuff going on........

The lathe is mostly re-assembled, but will require a few fabrications and repairs to the tail stock to make it as close to 100% as I can get it.

I pulled it all apart as mentioned before and removed all the paint that was not solid to the parts.  Someone had painted it a Craftex green at some point and that was all falling off.  The lathe had also been painted a Yellow/green so that would be coming off/prepped for overcoating.

After stripping down and cleaning and sanding I primed the parts with farm implement primer purchased from TLC.  This seemed the best bet for a lasting finish.  After the primer cured I top coated with the Ford Grey Implement Paint from TLC.  It is a light grey, almost white.  It sprayed on very well with my HVLP Fuji sprayer and I added a bit of thinner to allow for a better spray.



















I used a "green" paint stripper from Home Depot and allowed it to soak in quite well.  the dark green paint wire brushed off quite easily.
















While paint was curing I was working on the many issues, mechanical and cosmetic that I found as I dove deeper into the machine.

More in the next post....


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

Problems and repairs along the way:

The original electric motor was a 208-220 volt 3 phase 1 Hp motor and I wanted to re-use it (the previous owner had a 1/2 hp single phase 240 reversing motor on the lathe).  The reason I wanted to re-use the 3 phase motor was to install a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) and using the VFD would allow for electrical braking of the three phase motor and also allow  for smoother running and easy reversing.  The motor was full of swarf and I even pulled out a dry wall screw from the windings ....things did not look positive, however, I installed new bearings, cleaned the windings with contact/electrical cleaner, assembled and painted the motor.  I spun fine and later on proved to run perfectly.










The Electric motor was the simple part of the "repair" operations.  I masked the ID tag and painted it a gloss black.  

My next "discovery" was a badly worn bronze gear in the feed speed control.  There are two gears, one that allows for fine feed and one that allows for coarse feed.  You pull out/push in on a shaft control that is fitted with a spring backed round profile key.  As the gears turn the key with click into a key way on the gear and engage that feed.  I appears previous operators had allowed the feed select to ride on the side of the bronze gear and wore it down.  Someone had tried to repair it and set in a bushing and then locked that bushing with a set screw.  The set screw was steel and not a wise choice.  

I machined out a larger diameter in the gear and then set in a new bearing bronze bushing.  I locked the bushing in with Loctite bearing retainer and where the set screw was I milled out a clean hole and set in a brass dowel locked in with bearing retainer and I also pin punched it in three places.  I centred the gear on the mill and bored it to 0.7500" (shaft diameter) and then milled a 3/16" key way (milled and filed square).  The gear fit the shaft very well and the key way clicked in properly.











As I didn't have use of the lathe I made the bushing and the finished the part on the mill.  I took measurements of the gear and will eventually make a complete new assembly once I get some gear cutters for the mill as I found a few other issues that will need some gear repairs...ugh!

The feed gears on the back of the apron work well enough, however, they are worn and mushed up a bit.  I wrote to the Standard Modern folks and requested a quote for new parts......the total for the 2 gears $789 US plus shipping .

These bevel gears are a little over 1" diameter and 2.25" diameter.......I can buy cutters for 105 CDN and have some fun learning how to make gears so I think that will be the choice.

One thing I did find is the 1/8" key that is welded to the drive bevel gear spool was badly worn (perhaps only a 32nd left).  I milled out a new spot for a 1/8 key and welded it into place.  It should have been tig welded but I spot mig welded it and filed a bit and it worked very well!














More coming.......


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

The Lathe I have withstood some catastrophic failure at some point in its life by a careless operator.  Some of the good condition of some parts of the lathe were the result of the fact that other parts of the lathe had been severely abused resulting in some features of the lathe not being used - like threading and feeding.  As I took parts off and got to closely examine them I found lots of other problems.  One such issue was a broken key on the main speed selection spindle gear arrangement.

The key was worn and broken clean at the one retaining screw.  I had quite a challenge to match up the exact screw holes as they are not equal spaced from each end on the key way.   I first cut and filed a new key to the proper length and ensured a tight fit.  I then put the key in the mill vise and located it with an edge finder.  I then used the DRO to move the mill over each hole centre, counter sunk and drilled through for a #10-32 retaining screw.  There is not a lot of meat in the key to have the 2 retaining screws so I drilled one size above the threading bit for a #10 and after the key was installed ran the tap down through the key and into the shaft threads.  This also helped lock the retaining screws in.  A dab of Loctite 242 on each screw helped.  I made one new retaining screw by grinding down a countersink head #10 and then cutting a slot with a hacksaw.  The key works great and cleaned up slop in the gear slide.  During this shafting repair I found a far worse problem that required some very patient file and die grinder work....

The key repair:






Key is the slotted screw piece on the left side of the shaft.  Its hard to tell, but it is broken.




 






More coming..................................


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

After this repair I was putting the assembly back together as new bearings had arrived as had new Oilite bushings.  During disassembly I had found the main shaft aft bearing was badly worn - lots of slop and there was a few dead spots as it was turned by hand.  I decided to just go all in and change out the bearings in the entire lathe.  I went through the manual and also compared things to the actual bearings fitted to the lathe.  I have a spread sheet made up if anyone is interested.  I ordered the bearings from Quality Bearings and they cost about $150 and are all SKF and Timkin as per original.  The bushings I ordered from McMaster Carr and came in at $45 with shipping.  The bushings easily drove out with an aluminium drift and they tapped in snug using a brass drift sized to the OD of the bushings.  The bearings pulled off easily with a bearing puller and I tapped the new  ones with a socket sized to the bearing ID and clear of the shaft.

I re-installed the main speed selector shaft:






The Drive shaft is in behind and the two need to be moved about to align things properly.  The set screw you see in the bottom right corner is to set the bearing retainer to ensure the shaft is in the correct position.  At the back end of the shaft is a bearing spacer that sets the shaft distance and it is important to assemble the rear seal plate (seal is for the drive shaft and the is a surface for the bearing spacer to stop against) to the lathe and then set the front bearing retainer to eliminate slop.  Set screw is then tightened up.  The spring loaded selector lever can be set into the grove with the speed shaft loose in the gear box and pushing it outward while turning the selector into position.  One thing I found out however, THE MAIN SHAFT GEAR MUST BE INSTALLED AND SITTING IN PLACE _*BEFORE *_YOU INSTALL THE SPEED SHAFT.....ugh!!   take things apart again.....

and another repair due to major failure:







Yes sir......total bummer......this was going click click click for obvious reasons.......back to the surgical theatre to see what we can do.....

After lots of reading about how gear teeth cannot be repaired and how they can be repaired etc I decided to just go for it and see what happens.  I measured up the gear assembly (it is a 12 DP x 72 T x 20 deg load angle) and it is cast iron.  A 7' x 3" chunk of suitable cast is about $100 so I will eventually get cutters and make a new gear.

Throwing it all on the welding table I welded in a blob of the high nickle cast iron mig wire.  It stuck well and no cracks - it is important to weld and let cool and build up layers (I peened in between on the hot weld).  






Then began the grinding and filing.  I would have cut the profile in if I had the cutter, but alas......

I found using a die grinder fitted with a small cut wheel worked great.  Baked about 8 wheels in the process and filed for a few hours.











The pics are from part way in the process and it took additional fitting to get things all running smoothly, however, at the end....no more click click click.....






Insert the big gear before putting in the speed shaft!


Once the gear tooth was repaired the main parts of the lathe went back together quite quickly.  Some cosmetic repairs.......coming soon


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

So I believe a large portion of damage happened during the machining process someone was trying to achieve while reconditioning the tool post front and cross feed :  The following picture may cause nausea and vomiting in sensitive metal workers and consider this a warning.....it is disgusting......









So after cleaning up the mess on the floor and accepting the brutal treatment my lathe had be subjected too I booted up the welder and, using the high nickle cast iron mig wire I began filling in the damage.  I did not want to get too much heat going and also did not want to warp anything so the "repair" wasn't total back to original and fill in everything so there are a few spots remaining.....












I ground things back to profile and used a stone to fit the dovetails back to the gibs.  Things work and look very well now.

After the few cosmetic repairs and more assembly the lathe went back together quite well.....more coming....


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

The Lathe re-assembled:





















Gear box not yet on on the above pic











Things that didn't pan out:

Original 3 jaw chuck is pretty much scrap.  The jaws would need 100% re-doing and there is damage to the D1-3 spindle pins that make it a bit sketchy to use.  I bought new 3 and 4 jaw chucks, machined the back plates and fit them to the lathe.  I turned a test shaft and shimmed the head stock in to less than 0.0002" of run out over a 5 inch stick out.  The above pic is a quick test turning and it worked out quite well.

The Tail stock needs to be line bored to be on the money.  I will be making up some jigs and giving that a go over the next couple months.  With the tailstock quill out to 3" it will wobble quite a bit ( over .010")  I have a new over size quill I machined up out of some 4140 so I have to thread it (1/2 x10 Tpi ACME LH) and I have the #2 MT already bored.  It needs some oil passages and a 1/4" groove for the locking arrangement.

I will be re-making the main gear at some point and will also remake the bronze feed gear and fine/coarse selector rod and the feed bevel gears.

The lathe is running now quite well and although it has a few "more noisy" speeds it is a super great addition to the shop.  I have used it to make up some 1" x 14 tpi levelling feet:





and some lathe chuck keys






I have lots more pics and things but I'll pause here --- its a rainy day so getting this posted was a nice project!


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## Johnwa (Jul 17, 2019)

Very Nice!  I have an SM1120.  One of the gearbox gears had been stripped and replaced with a spacer.  The quote from Leblond was $750 to get one made.  They did have a larger gear in stock for $50 so I ordered that, turned it to diameter and cut the teeth.  They ship UPS so the shipping/brokerage fee was more than the cost of the gear.. Other than that mine’s in pretty good shape, although it too has scars on the compound.


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## Brent H (Jul 17, 2019)

Hi Johnwa, 

Your lathe has the drawings available on the vintage machinery website.   The prints have most of the gear information, some of which is common to the 1020 so that has been helpful.  I have dropped a few of them into autocad and scaled to match measurements and it is great.  I am hoping to copy the steady rest and travel rest for the lathe.  

I used the Blue Demon mig wire for cast iron.  I welded with quick passes and it did not heat up the cast very much.  Ground and filed and disc sanded back to profile.  It worked quite well.  I have repaired a broken band saw bracket with the wire previously and it worked well.


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## kevin.decelles (Jul 17, 2019)

very nice.


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## RobinHood (Jul 17, 2019)

Excellent job bringing this beat up machine back to life.



Brent H said:


> I measured up the gear assembly (it is a 12 DP x 72 T x 20 deg load angle) and it is cast iron.


How did you determine that it has a 20* pressure angle? I understand that it can be quite tricky to measure the PA of a gear.


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## Brent H (Jul 18, 2019)

Hey Robin, 

You are absolutely correct it is near impossible to measure the PA, especially on worn out gears, so I am going by the drawings for the 1120 & 1334 metric lathe  - Headstock Assembly

The drawings have most of the gearing spec listed in various places.  Many of the gears on the drawing are the same or have the same Diametrical pitch. 

It is a bit of an assumption, yes, but I cannot see Standard Modern changing much of their design as the gear box assembly is fairly consistent.  If the cutters come in and there is a discrepancy I will be sure to list it.  

The gearing for the feed gear I need to make drawing shows 30T 16DP 14.5 PA.  The gears for the pulley shaft are 16 DP 20PA and the outside gears for the feed drive show 16 DP 14.5 PA.

I am debating whether to get a hobbing style cutter or the set of 8 individual cutters.....


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## RobinHood (Jul 18, 2019)

That makes a lot of sense. So it appears that inside the headstock - at least for all gears associated with driving the spindle - they use 20* PA; for everything else they use 14.5* PA.


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## Johnwa (Jul 18, 2019)

I cut my gearbox gear to 14DP, 14.5 PA.  The gearbox gears seemed to mesh properly with the rack on my Southbend lathe so I measured the angle from there.
Interesting enough my lathe is metric.


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## Brent H (Jul 18, 2019)

There is one odd ball gear.......... well 2.  One is a bronze gear (part 11 on feed gear train assembly): 12 tooth tumbler gear and part 16: 60 tooth Feed gear.  

On the 1120/1336 drawings these show a DP of 17.37.  I would assume the change in DP is to get the spacing correct and the contact angle would remain at 14.5 (it is not shown but all other gearing for the same function is 14.5 degrees)?

The gearbox gears (9 of them) are shown as 14 DP and a 20 deg pressure angle.......not sure how that will affect Johnwa if things are now meshing properly.

For the most part the gears all seem to fall into the 4 cutters 12 DP 20 PA,  14 DP  20 PA, 16 DP 14.5 PA and 16 DP 20 PA with one odd ball 17.37 DP for 2 gears - this one I will measure a bunch to see if it is correct when the time comes.  

I will soon order up the cutters and see what I can do.  First major event, however, will be line boring the tailstock and fitting a new shaft......that should be interestingly fun


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## Johnwa (Jul 18, 2019)

Brian
Do you have a source for the drawings with gear specs.  The manual I have just gives the number of teeth.  I’ve also never been able to source drawings of my gearbox.  The ones I got from LeBlond are slightly different.


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## Brent H (Jul 18, 2019)

Hi Johnwa,   here is the link:  The drawings

You will need to look about the drawings for the gear specs, such as trace the gearing back to the first gear in the train and it will typically yield the DP, and PA


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## Johnwa (Jul 19, 2019)

Thanks Brent
It does look like they should be 20PA.
I tried to measure the PA of the gears directly but for those gears the differences were down in my measurement error range.


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## Brent H (Aug 11, 2019)

A small update:

While doing some other lathe work I noticed I was spraying oil and shavings off into the distance.  I fabbed up a lathe shield out of some stainless sheet that was handy.   I riveted most of the joints to maintain the stainless and used a cardboard template to shape the plate next to the lathe headstock.  I added a wee shelf on top to hold some tools and keep things handy. 














Should keep things a lot nicer and help protect the motor from sucking in metal swarf.


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## historicalarms (Aug 12, 2019)

Some time ago I built a shelf that attached to the top of the splash guard that was already on the lathe, flat with no side ledge same as yours but I soon found out that even a slight vibration from machine rotation or more robustly from any "interrupted" cut type of thing, walked things around and over the edge so soon found out that a ledge was "compulsory".


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## Brent H (Aug 12, 2019)

I am drilling in holes for all the chuck keys and centers/drills etc and the cutter holders will all have pins to keep things in place.  

I hear you on the shelf ledge as I work on a ship - always making things to prevent vibration and heavy sea dumping

Brent


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## Brent H (Aug 23, 2019)

ACME threading - such fun.....

So it was a bit rainy and no paint was going on the house (like I need an excuse  ) and I decided to make a new compound feed nut for the lathe.  This represented a challenge as I needed the lathe to make the nut and I don’t have any 1/2” - 10 RH acme stock for test fits.   A G2 fit for an Acme 1/2 - 10 is a root diameter max of .380 and the depth of cut is .060.  There is not a lot of room to run a boring bar with a proper shaped acme cutter - it was more a job than expected.   First 2 attempts failed.  On the second try I  realized my little bit arrangement was too flimsy and was bending enough to not make the thread cut any deeper than about 30 thou.  The bend also seemed to make the thread a bit angled.

I purchased a couple small (Busy Bee) boring bars with the straight and 45° cutter mount places.  The small one takes 1/8” square bits. 

The third attempt went well and the nut fits snug - however, there is thread wear on the ACME screw so that may prove to be another project. 

The reason to re-make the nut was the back lash.  It was about 0.025” and then add the same for the cross feed and it was a bit crazy.  With the new nut I have about 0.005” of backlash on the compound.  I am setting up for the cross feed nut and it is a 9/16  - 8 LH thread.

The threading set up:





The dial indicator was used to make sure I went in 0.060”

Test fit:






New “nut” in place:





Getting set to mill up the blank for the cross feed nut:






Will see how this goes.....


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## PeterT (Aug 23, 2019)

Nice work. So you hand ground a HSS cutter to the ACME thread profile & that was held in the boring bar holder? Did you do it by eye & then held to the lead screw under magnification or somehow jig with a protractor on the grinder? I've always wondered how to gauge the accuracy of the profile on those bigger or less conventional threads. 

Is the new nut brass or bronze?


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## Brent H (Aug 23, 2019)

Hi Peter, 

I ground up a cutter from 1/8”x1/8” hss just by “eye” but by “eye” I mean using an ACME thread gauge:





The “V” helps you set the 29°  and the notches are the tip width. The open angle by the hole will help set the bit parallel to the work, however, in a boring bar for internal threads, it is important to grind the cutter evenly so that when you set up the bar parallel to the bore the cutter is running true.  

The 10 TPI ACME is the smallest and man, it was hard to get the glasses focused.  Here are some pic’s of the bit:

Top view:




Front view:






Bottom view:





The material,  hmmmmm,   My first attempt I milled out a blank from a piece of 1-1/2” brass round stock (similar to the hunk of brass going for the cross feed screw)  but, after the fail I turned a piece of hex stock I had.  It “should be brass”.  and I believe it is 360 brass (free machining brass) so it has a higher lead content and hence the colour.  Should it fail, well, can always make another out of yellow brass.


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## Brent H (Aug 28, 2019)

ACME threading, the on going saga.....

Part of my restoration is to make a new tailstock quill and then line bore the tailstock and fit the new quill.  I made a quill already out of 4140 and bored in a #2 Morse Taper and then also bored the hole at the aft end for 9/16 -8 LH ACME threads for the existing hand wheel.  Cutting those threads in the 4140 ended up a failure as I found that given the right (or wrong really) engagement of the thread feed, it can occasionally lock in about a 1/4 thread out - argh!  - yes, that means making a new 1/2 nut assembly at some point.   It only takes once and the threads are not really that great .....

Today I proceeded to make a new cross feed nut.  This nut is also 9/16-8 LH ACME.   The original nut is bronze but I made the new one out of Brass.  I machined the nut blank on the mill out of a 1-1/2” piece of round stock that I cut to length and then faced to final length on the lathe. (About 1-3/8”). 






Adding a chamfer:





After making the blank I marked it for the thread holes (one for the feed screw and one for the cross feed retaining screw. I mounted the blank in the lathe using a dead centre between the punch mark in the blank and the live centre in the tailstock.  I then used a dial indicator against the dead centre and adjusted the 4 jaw chuck to remove any run out showing on the dead centre.  I drilled out the blank for an OD of about 0.4180”.  Then I was off to ACME threading.  

The final result: 






I used the tailstock ACME thread as a guide and it fit great, snug but worked back and forth easy.  The Cross Feed screw was tight at the start but once over the newer part of the threads it was a good fit.  






Once re-assembled I checked the backlash and it had come from 0.025/0.030” down to 0.004”.  Yee Haw!!

Also, I purchased a new 60° end mill and used it to clean up the top slide dovetails.  I machined off a total of 0.007” one side and 0.004”  on the other- just into the tight corner of the dove tail.  On one side I did get a few areas where the tool was cutting a bit more than others and the sides of the top slide dovetail were nice and smooth.  It works great now with the new nut and clean up machining.  

Next up will be line boring the tailstock .......


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## Brent H (Sep 11, 2019)

So, Boring a tail stock on the lathe......

This project is still on the go but almost completed so I will update things now and see what you folks think.

I read quite a bit about how not to do this and that it would be quite impossible (perhaps it is and I will find failure in the end) but I was willing to risk is the quill or spindle was in rough shape and there was a lot of play in the assembly when you put out about 2 inches of the quill.  Probably not as critical for drilling things as the bits can somewhat achieve a reasonable center and then you can bore to a proper concentricity  but using the "center" to hold things on center or to establish a center was pretty much useless.  There was about 5 or 6 thou side to side play and about 25 to 30 up and down.  The tail stock did function quite a bit better after I raised it 0.010" by shimming it between the bottom plate and the top.  It turns out that a couple of carefully cut beer cans make a good shim.

I machined a blank to the size of the tail stock quill in the 4 jaw and then slid the tail stock up to it and then shimmed/adjusted until the tail stock would slide on without smacking the top.  That gave me the shimming for the tail stock and greatly improved drilling and centering.

The quill has seen many a battle and sports quite a bit of damage from over tightening the jam nut.  If I was not going to line bore the tail stock, I had to at least make a new quill.  Here is the old one:





Note the double key ways.  This was done as some one had crushed the original key way - also note the big ding near the end of the top key way.





This is the inside end of the quill.  Note the scoring- how does that happen?






Here you can see the mashed over lower key way and you can just see the oil grove at the top of the quill.  By machining in the new key way the oil grove was rotated off of top center and was essentially useless.  There is a small hole at the top that would allow oil to drip onto the feed screw from a gits oiler on top of the tail stock.....well the wee hole was plugged with crud and not much oil was going anywhere.

I have machined a new quill complete with a #2 Morse taper front hole and also 9/16 - 8 TPI Left Hand ACME threads as per the original.  The feed screw was in surprisingly good condition and fits the new quill very well.   The new quill is 1.588" in diameter with less than 0.0003 across its length of 7 inches.  The old one measured 1.576 at the morse taper end and 1.5715 at the feed screw end.

Here is the new one beside the old one.  I still need to mill the 1/4" key way and oil slot.  I would like to add the graduations (3 inches worth) if someone has a cool idea for that.  I will probably have to use the rotary table very carefully..






More to come on the line boring....this is why the new quill is 1.588" as I did the boring....


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## Brent H (Sep 11, 2019)

So carrying on with the line boring part of it ( the new quill is 4140 steel by the way) I bored the tail stock out on the lathe by making up a line boring jig and then using the feed on the lathe to drive the boring tool.

It was pretty darn close to not being able to fit with the jig I made but it ended up working quite well.  The tool inspiration came from watching a few you tube videos on some guys who have bored their own tail stock.

Here is what the assembly looked like:






I had to maximize the length of the boring capabilities so I took off the chuck.  Way back at the start of this project you may note that I had the old three jaw chuck original to the lathe (I think) and the jaws were worn out.  Well the D1-3 face plate made a good fit and I machined a bit out of its center to get a true hole.  I then press fit in the steel bushing that drives the boring bar.  At the end there was no detectable run out at the boring bar closest to the face plate.

The bar is 1" shaft stock and runs pretty true.  With the assembly as shown I was able to get less than .0005" at the max distance with respect to run out and it ran well.  I fabricated the bearing support on the mill out of 1/2" and 5/8" steel plate.  I surfaced everything and after welding it went back into the mill to square the bearing support face to the tool holder face.











It worked out quite well as I could use the cross feed and the tool post to micro adjust the boring bar to achieve near zero run out.  

The bar is slotted for a key all the way along and this is what I used to drive it.  I sunk a set screw into the face plate end bushing and locked it into the slot so the boring bar could move along the key way and rotate at the same time.  I drilled out for a 1/4" High Speed Steel cutter and ground it into a decent cutter and secured it in the bar.  I put a set screw in at the bottom for fine adjustment and 2 locking set screws in the side of the bar to retain the bit.






I ran the lathe at 300 RPM with a 0.002" feed and cut from the front to the back of the tail stock removing only enough material to get all 4 sides clean.  I had to stop short of the end as there is a bearing retaining Cir-Clip grove that I didn't want to cut into.  The cutting process took about 20 minutes with only 2 passes and left a really smooth finish on the cast iron.

I machined a piece of steel down very slowly until it just fit into the bore of the tail stock.  This mic'ed out to be 1.5880 and is a snug fit.

Hopefully, the bore and new quill will work together.  I have also machined a new jam nut out of brass and made a new key/jam nut screw that should solve the mashing of the key way issue on the quill.

I won't be able to test/complete this all until I get back from work, but fingers are crossed.  Once this part of the restore is completed it will be on to learning how to machine bevel gears......


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## PeterT (Sep 11, 2019)

I'm not getting your picture attachments in last couple posts for some reason,


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## John Conroy (Sep 11, 2019)

PeterT said:


> I'm not getting your picture attachments in last couple posts for some reason,


Same here.


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## Brent H (Sep 11, 2019)

I refreshed the screen and they came up for me?   Maybe I need to drop the resolution?  

I will try to resize?


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## PeterT (Sep 11, 2019)

yup, that worked. Thanks!


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## PeterT (Sep 11, 2019)

Nice restoration. I have an ill-fitting keyway slider that was apparently chewed by a Taiwanese rat after inspection. Shockingly, the only issue was a bit of rotational slop of the quill when loaded under torque. It is hardened but I was able to stone it for a better fit but I think I'll make a new one one day. The keyway slot itself wasn't bad but not great, so they kind of worked despite themselves.

The only difference of my quill is what looks like an inserted brass or bronze leadscrew nut on the end. Your original was threaded in the blank itself?

This also got me thinking. This mini key is the only thing resisting torque like when the tailstock quill is fully loaded with a big drill. In other applications on the lathe, the last line of defense is typically lower strength material like say the brass shear pin on the power feed or threading bar. I guess there is a lot more expensive gears at risk. But would it mkae sense to have the key made of brass to shear or at least not mangle the keyway slot? Is yours steel?


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## Brent H (Sep 11, 2019)

Hi Peter, 

From the looks of your quill screw end  ....hahaha  ...(not being personal or anything)...that would be a modification/original to fit an insert?  My original is  threaded :






That being said, the insert is nothing bad and I note that your's is pinned on two sides - that would help to resist spinning and secure the insert.  Some tail stocks have replaceable threaded inserts so it should be fine.  Had I failed to machine new threads I would have made an insert.  Lots of the older lathes have cast iron quills and are not hardened or plated etc.  they last many years.

The key on mine is part of the threaded assembly for the jam nut.  Essentially a landing that sticks out into the tail stock.  You can see it in the side of this tail stock pic:






I think the key should be steel as it needs to resist the torque, it should also fit very well - a good depth of contact in the key way.  from the above pic you can see that the key sticks out pretty good and is a solid 1/4" x 1/8"


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## PeterT (Sep 11, 2019)

Nope the quill is stock with replaceable? bronze or brass threaded insert.
You might have to lower res your pics again, cant see them


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## Brent H (Sep 12, 2019)

hi Peter, 

Here are the quill pictures that reference my last post.  I  resized the pictures so hopefully that is the issue. 

This is the quill thread:






This is the tail stock picture down the bore.  You can see the key on the left side.


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## Brent H (Sep 12, 2019)

If  there is a way to edit the other posts I made I can change out the pictures.  The edit and delete features seem to go away.


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## Brent H (Sep 20, 2019)

So I am away from the lathe for a while but I have been still making things....

I can't try out the new quill for the tail stock just yet but I am working on a new half nut.  The older model LD type Utilathes actually have a half a thread that engages the threading screw.  The Thread screw is a 7/8 - 8 TPI  Left Hand ACME.  Given that the root diameter is just over 3/4" it makes using a larger boring bar and tool bit possible.  This greatly increased the rigidity in the threading process and my threads came out with very little chatter.

I used a piece of cast iron for the half nut.  The Cast iron I chose is listed as impact resistant and able to take repeated stress without failure 

Yield Strength: 55,000 psi
Hardness: Rockwell C20 (Hard)
The half nut is 1.5" in diameter and about 3-1/2" long.  I needed to add a bit to the length to drill the thread hole and I will machine to to proper length later at home.  I used a 8" - 4 jaw chuck to hold the half nut blank centered at the required spot and then drilled, bored and threaded the part on the lathe.  I will complete the machining of the dowel slot and the eccentric slot when I get home in 2 weeks.


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## Brent H (Sep 21, 2019)

While I am waiting to get home to my shop I am working on the plans for a taper attachment.  

I believe the one for the 9" Utilathe will fit/be the same as the one for the 10 and 12" LD models and as I am scaling the drawing it seems to be in the ball park.

Here is a screen shot of what I have so far:






My son measured the distance on the back of my lathe to allow for 27" where the attachment could fit.  There is a set of double screws on the back I think are for something else so I scaled the picture to be 24 inches long (the blue line in the imbedded image) and then went from there.  I am hoping perhaps YYCHobbyMachinist can lend me a hand with a few measurements


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## Brent H (Nov 1, 2019)

Long time between updates on the project that is really close to completion:

YYC and I combined forces with Chicken Lights to provide me with most of the taper attachment I needed and I will show some parts machined when I get back home to do so.

My new half nut fit the threads on the lead screw perfect and after machining in the guide groove and the eccentric slot everything fit perfect.  There is no way to engage partially off the thread dial lines as the lathe tended to do from time to time. 

I line bored the tail stock again and finally took off the ovality that was showing at the back end of the stock.  This was great but left my new spindle 0.010 under size - crap - so I will be making a 3rd tail stock spindle.....alas ...the process.......


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## Brent H (Nov 9, 2019)

Tailstock spindle in the process of getting redone.  This morning I machined down a slice of 4140  2” round stock to my 10 thou required oversize from my last effort.  




The final pass I was running 2000 RPM at a 0.005” per Rev feed rate and spray cooling the tool bit.  Solid carbide coated insert.  Depth of cut was only 0.015 final pass to remove 0.030” off the diameter.  




I guess it would be best to turn between centres for accuracy but we have things dialled in quite well and there is less than 0.0002” discrepancy over the 7” of shaft.  Next stage is to cut off the end and 4 jaw chuck it for machining in the #2 morse taper.  That will be all I can do until I get home to my bigger mill and can do the fancy oil relief and slot for the key.  I was also able to hack off a chunk of cast iron from a damaged engine block to make a follower for the new (to me) taper attachment .  
Sorry the pictures are sideways. Seem to do that when reducing size - ugh


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## PeterT (Nov 9, 2019)

Looking good. What is the OD of the spindle shaft? I guess we will see your next step pics but just wondering out loud if it will extend inside the headstock spindle ID or if you will require steady rest?

On the 'better accuracy between centers' thing, I've always wondered about this. For sure one needs between centers turning if you have to flip the part end for end or otherwise return it into position. Or machining right up to the end of the stock vs. parting off. But if its just doing the OD operation, does it make any difference if its HS chuck>TS center vs. HS center>TS center? The chuck is gripping, its rotating... what else can a center do to improve accuracy on the HS end?


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## Brent H (Nov 9, 2019)

Hi Peter, 

The final OD is 1.6025"

What I did to help accuracy is to machine a 3" stick out section round, flip the shaft so the round 3" section was chucked, face and drill a center in the shaft and then put everything in order and machined the shaft.  The shaft is still quite thick so no steady required.  I will slice off the larger end with our chop saw and then face the shaft to proper length, bore the centre out after it gets zero'd in the 4 jaw and then set up to cut in the Morse taper.  Once I taper the spindle I will chuck in a #2 Morse taper reamer and finish the taper hole.  After that I will try out a few taper drills with some bluing to check for a good fit.

One thing I am thinking is to cut the side slots in the shaft to allow you to wedge out a tanged drill or centre as well as some of the centres that have no tang.  My tail stock works on the principal that when you retract the shaft all the way the screw bangs into the back of the inserted tool and knocks it free.  This works great for tang fitted bits but not so great for some centres that do not have that wee extension.

I think the only thing that will affect the accuracy at the head stock is if your three jaw has run out - like the back plate is off a bit or when you chuck something your head stock is not right on alignment with the bed.  We had some issues with this until we tore off the back of the lathe to access the bolts and set the head stock running totally parallel with the ways.  On my Utilathe I had to shim one side to get the head stock in line.  Now I can turn a stick out piece of steel to within a couple tenths over 8"


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## PeterT (Nov 9, 2019)

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

A hole in the barrel to drift out MT tools might be a good idea. So good it makes me wonder why this isn't a standard feature, maybe I'm missing something. I hate it when my tool shank is stuck. Supposedly when stuck, you are supposed to just crank the handle to eject it, simple as that. There is tremendous mechanical advantage on leadscrew so I get nervous when it still wont come out. I've confirmed it is bottoming, no issue there. And it has nothing to do with the tang. My lathe TS doesnt retain on the tang. 

So when it happens, I sigh, end up removing the handle & spindle so I can tap out the tool with a rod from behind. This is a PITA & just seems wrong. You are not supposed to use anti-seize or much of any kind of lubrication on the shank, otherwise MT shank spins in the socket. I change the tools often so its not like the oil is getting sticky or adhesive or anything. I've asked about this on other forums & the 'answer' seems to be give the TS handle a slight whack to eject it (=more mechanical advantage on the lead screw). I worry about buggering the handle axle or worse yet the brass lead screw nut. A cross-wise drift hole in the spindle seems so logical. Maybe my socket is just sticky for some reason. I try hard not to allow any grit in there changing tools. I've blued it & it is a nice a fit as I could hope for. If anything, slight variations in tooling shank manufacturing should make ejecting easier. I have one drill chuck that likes to stick. Unfortunately its very precise so is my favorite.


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## Brent H (Nov 9, 2019)

Hey Peter, 

Here is the table for the slot location and dimensions required.  One thing I have with my lathe is that the key slot in the tail stock spindle is at the 90 degree location where the slot would also be.

I have a #2 MT so the wedge slot needs to be 0.260"  (dimension w) - argh!  but I think I can mill that and then make a new piece for the spindle lock (again) that is .260 wide.  The taper knock out would then slip out  the key way in that location - would be fine as it would be opposite to where you would tap.

My lathe also does not use the tang to keep the tools from rotating, just the fit and - just like you, my good center seems to be just that much too short and I do not wish to weld on a bump.  The older one I have can be unscrewed with a pin wrench and then you can, I guess, Screw in a tang.   The tang for our smaller tail stocks eats up a bit of drill length as it can be bumped out when you retract the bit and the tang hits the screw.  

perhaps the measurements above will help you out.

Another challenge I will have is to index the spindle - should be fun!


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## Brent H (Nov 29, 2019)

Success!!!
Fit the new tailstock spindle today and it all works perfect.  No slop at all and looks great.  I milled a new 1/4” slot in the spindle I made (again) about 0.010” bigger to better fit the tailstock. 




I milled a slot right through as per the morse taper info given in the machinist handbook for a #2 taper.  I then fit the spindle in the tailstock and set up to find the top - I used this nifty level gauge/scribe so that once the pointer is at zero you can then Either use the scribe to leave a mark or I made a line :











Everything fits great.  Next is to etch on graduations - will see how that goes later on.  Busy times before Christmas.


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## Brent H (Dec 13, 2019)

A bit more work squeezed in on making the cross slide extension for the taper attachment.   The original one looks line this:  





here are the pics as I was plowing away steel.  The blank is from a piece of 6x4x3/4” angle.


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## Brent H (Dec 23, 2019)

Finally, having a couple hours to finish things off:




Checking to make sure cut line is parallel.  Used a slitting saw to cut off the sections.  




The new compound extension for the 10” Utilathe compared to the smaller one for the 9” Utilathe. 

next is to work on the sliding block and the assembly will be good to go!

departing for work on Christmas morning so Merry Christmas everyone!!


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## YYCHM (Dec 23, 2019)

NICE work Brent!

The 9" version doesn't look all that much smaller than your version?  Were the mounting holes the problem?

Leaving for work Christmas morning????  That SUCKS!


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## Brent H (Dec 23, 2019)

Big difference.  Will send a pic tomorrow.  

yep big suckatude


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## Brent H (Dec 23, 2019)

Tomorrow came early

about an inch of difference


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## Brent H (Dec 29, 2019)

I have re-written the manual -per say of the 10 inch Utilathe after digging all over the internet.

I redid the drawings and set out the type so it is all legible.  It is just under 4 MB in PDF.  Is there a way to up load it for sharing?  I get a "file to large error"  don't think I can reduce it any further?

I am hoping in the future to add more scaled drawings so folks could make their own missing follow rest or steady etc


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## ScottyM (Jan 12, 2020)

Awesome work Brent!

Great seeing that old beauty get the love it deserves with a real rebuild!


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## Brent H (Jan 13, 2020)

try to attach manual again....


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## RobinHood (Jan 13, 2020)

@Brent H 

that worked perfectly; I can open both files, thanks for all the great work.


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## Brent H (Jan 18, 2020)

A bit of information  that maybe one in a few million may find interesting......

A person on Kijiji was looking for a motor for his 10" Utilathe so I contacted him and we have a few e-mails going back and forth.  He sent me some pics of his lathe and the mount section and I got to thinking.......

I went to the Lebond site and re-read their brief history of "Standard Modern"

*"Standard Machine & Tool was founded in 1931 by two partners in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.  In 1935, an unrelated company began operations in Toronto as Modern Tools Works.  Staveley Industries, a British company, purchased both Standard Machine & Tool Ltd. and Modern Tool Works Ltd. in 1955.  The combined entity was incorporated under the name Standard Modern Tool Company Ltd. with operations in Toronto."*

The big "MODERN" is also cast into the gear cover on the end of his lathe.  My lathe has a plaque riveted on and no "Modern" on the gear cover :








There are a couple other noticeable things as well, his lathe is metric - all metric for the QCGB.  His head stock sports a threaded chuck spindle verses the D1-3 spindle fitted to mine.  I am not sure if the gibs on his are set screw adjusted or a taper but I think they are probably set screw.  His Serial number  is like 71-4 and mine is U530

I am now wondering if his lathe is perhaps from the Modern Tool Works and would be built between 1935 and 1955.  My lathe has the "Standard- Modern" plaque and has Toronto Windsor as the build location - So built after 1955.?    

It is fascinating that the  "MODERN" lathe is metric and built possibly before 1955 as Canada was not really a metric place until things got going in the 1970's.   My lathe is all Imperial and it is laid out that way in the manual.....The  fact that a British company bought and put the two companies together should have strengthened the metric preference, however, a big purchaser was the US military.  hmmmm.....can the serial numbers be worked into a date code........will have to break out the enigma machine...


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## RobinHood (Jan 18, 2020)

Brent H said:


> hmmmm.....can the serial numbers be worked into a date code........will have to break out the enigma machine...



i would contact Standard Modern with your serial number(s). When I asked them for info regarding date of manufacture of my SM1340 (by giving them the serial number), they came back with a “shipping date” out of the factory. Based on that, at least I knew ball park what vintage it is. I was told that they had some ”event” in their archives in the past (fire/flood - not sure) and have lost a lot of the detailed info; that is why some of their older manuals have faded/hard to read blue prints in them.


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## Brent H (Jan 18, 2020)

Ahhhhhh........ the dreaded “event”.
Could be why there is so little out there on the company when it was split.  (Modern/Standard Pre 1955). Seems like the “MODERN” machines are the ones in the manuals for the 10 and 12” LD models (pre 1955)  and then changes started with the amalgamation - the change or phase out of the 10/12 to the 11/13?
My 10 seems more like the 11 with its construction differences between the 10/12 in the older manual? and sort of firmed up with the man who needs a motor.

When I got my lathe it cam with 2 motors, a 1 Hp 3 phase older model Century electric and a 3/4 Hp farm duty type Leeson.

When YYC bought the 9" Utlathe donor lathe I pulled off a 1/2 Hp Century 3 phase motor looking to be in the same era.  This suggested to to me that the motor now running on my lathe (3 phase Century) is the original for the machine.  The Part Number is 8-111069-01  possibly hinting that this motor is from 1969.  With a serial number on the lathe of U530 it is possible this lathe was made on my birthday.....how crazy would that be!  I think I will send off a blurb to Standard Modern.  My last contact was for gears and that prompted me to buy enough tooling to do it myself and still save hundreds......hmmmmmm... LOL


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## RobinHood (Jan 18, 2020)

sure would be interesting to somehow piece together their history....



Brent H said:


> My last contact was for gears and that prompted me to buy enough tooling to do it myself and still save hundreds......hmmmmmm..



i hear you: they quoted USD 1600 + for a set of change gears to make my 1340 (a metric machine) also cut SAE threads. I just made them myself after I got my mill with all the accessories. I was even ready to try to make them on the lathe itself before that...


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## YYCHM (Jan 18, 2020)

At least you guys got a response.  Did you phone them?  I tried their on-line msg system.  Got nothing.


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## Brent H (Jan 19, 2020)

Try Amanda Stagg at Racer astagg@racerinternational.com

Racer is the Standard Modern place in Cambridge Ontario:

Amanda Stagg




1030 Fountain St N. Cambridge, ON Canada N3H 4R7 CANADA T +1.519.623.6223 x212 | F +1.519.623.1122 | USA T +1.716.462.6224 x212 | F +1.716.462.6227 
astagg@racerinternational.com |  www.racerinternational.com | Toll NA 1.888.514.1661 |


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## YYCHM (Jan 23, 2020)

Brent H said:


> So a few weeks ago I purchased a 10' LD Standard Modern Utilathe  serial number U530.  The serial number is a bit like a submarine so I hope this project stays afloat and the lathe doesn't become a dive site somewhere.



Some trivia for you.

U530 was surrendered in Argentina in 1945 and later sunk as a torpedo test target.

My machine is serial U379.  U379 was sunk by the allies in the Atlantic in 1943


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## Brent H (Jan 26, 2020)

Today was a good day and a bad day.....
After re-machining my tailstock spindle I needed to do a proper alignment.
At work, we have been tweaking our lathe and I machined a test piece.   Over 11” our lathe at work was out less than a tenth - I brought the piece home to test my lathe between centres.  

originally i was out 0.001 over the 11” length but my real question was how low my tailstock was.  It was low 0.005”.   I had new shim stock so I cut a new set of shims and bolted things up.  
After re-setting everything and adjusting the tailstock I am about 0.0002” on the horizontal and about 0.0005 high on the vertical - I did a little dance!!!

The set up:





then came the bad part of the day with a mag chuck I was working on that was a bit stuck.  I gave the on/off handle a tap to see if it would free up - heard a crack and then - “lots of cursing and WTF’s!!”





Looks like a part will need to be made out of aluminium - argh!!

and no, I didn’t beat the he k out of it -maybe a decent tap from a small child being carful.  - anyway. Another post on this repair will be in order.

my stamps came in for indexing the spindle so we will see what goes on there.


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## David_R8 (Jan 26, 2020)

Awesome stuff on the alignment. 
Crappy luck on the mag chuck! [emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YotaBota (Jan 26, 2020)

Nice bar, you're going to miss those like perks when you retire I know I do.
Is the break in the base dirty like its been cracked for a while? If the crack had already started it wouldn't take a big hit to finish it off.


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## Brent H (Jan 26, 2020)

One crack was there - possibly multiple.  It is an 8 x 18 i think - got for $150 - it worked - ish - needed a clean - alas - gotta make stuff I guess-


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## Brent H (Jan 28, 2020)

Picked up an ER 32 collet adaptor and a D1-3 back plate (5”) and took some time to machine the back plate and fit the collet adaptor.  













Got the fit to be a tap on - nice - then found that the 3 holes needed for attachment were just a few thou off of being concentric - Argh!    Fitted the collet adaptor, punched the thread centres and then drilled and counter bored the back plate.  
I used those stubby drills from KBC tools - awesome bits!!!  There is a thread on the Forums about them - great purchase.
Got everything set up (pic 3).  The whole thing assembled dials in at maybe a tenth.  

Should be a nice addition for making multiple items.  The OD of the backing plate is 5 ish inches but you can see from Pic 2 that the multiple mounting arrangements sorta dictate to leave the thing as it is.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2020)

Nice Brent. So does the ER plate have a recess like a chuck & that's what is fitting the lip of adapter plate?
Can you make provisions for any 'set-tru' type adjuster screws or is this what I'm seeing here?


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## Brent H (Jan 28, 2020)

Hey Peter,  

yes, the plate has a recess in the back- just like a regular type  Chuck.  The only thing I found is that the whole thing is hardened - so you cannot easily drill for new mounting holes.  It is also ground to finish.  
The hole you have pointed to is just that - a blind hole.  There are two of them.  They are for a rod to hold the chuck while you tighten or loosen the collet.  (Not Supplied)

i deliberated the 5C type arrangement but I have both imperial and metric  ER 32 collets for the mill.  They go up to just under 1 inch - I also have the square and hex in the ER 32 so.... seemed somewhat logical.  The collets also seem like they would do less damage to threads - like for working threaded rod or bolts etc.
 The collet adaptor was amazon purchase.


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## David_R8 (Jan 28, 2020)

I was just looking at a similar collet chuck on Banggood. Same price point too but obviously the Amazon one would arrive much quicker!
Overall are you pleased with it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brent H (Jan 28, 2020)

Hi David,
It seems pretty good.   They make one size diameter smaller - cheaper as well.  

After machining my backer plate, the ER 32 dialed in with no deflection on my gauge.  Both inside the collet landing and on the outer diameter.  The threaded part was off 0.002”.  Did not seem to affect anything.

Arrived quickly.   Given the small diameter the 100 mm OD was the limit for a D1-3 style.  You can see I was close to machining off other bolts - LOL.  A threaded chuck as you have would probably work quite well 

Value wise I think this will be great for small rod, threaded rod, working close to the collet and if your lathe has a milling type holder for the saddle then this will hold end mills quite nicely.


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## PeterT (Jan 28, 2020)

I think the ER plates could have another happy home on a rotary table. Depending on your T-slot (3 vs 4 vs hole pattern in the plate or ability to drill new holes) it could be mounted directly to the RT platten. Probably shave 2-4" over a chuck /plate combo all other things equal. The 'wedding cake' syndrome robs so much headroom from a mill. Mind you you could only collet smallish round stock to the limit of ER ID. A chuck is more useful for larger or irregular stock.


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## David_R8 (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks for that @Brent H, as a matter of fact I do have a milling attachment on the way so the ability to properly hold an end mill is a big part of why I’m thinking about one.

Plus Shars is sending me a new backing plate so I can use the one I cut for the 4-jaw for the collet chuck 

I did see the smaller chuck but skipped over it in favour of the one you have.
I’ll go back and look at the smaller version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brent H (Jan 29, 2020)

Hi David - just make sure there is enough meat on the backing plate around the inner hole diameter if you go with the small one.    I also left the  backing plate original size so there would be some mass in the headstock end of things.


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## Marc Moreau (Jan 29, 2020)

Brent H said:


> The Lathe re-assembled:
> 
> View attachment 5604
> 
> ...


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## Marc Moreau (Jan 29, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Marc Moreau, poste: 19689, membre: 1718"] [/ QUOTE]
Wow de toute beauté


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## Marc Moreau (Jan 29, 2020)

Si vous avez des conseils ou vidéos sur ce projet je voudrais toutes les voir. Il devrait y avoir beaucoup d'heures de travaille pour avoir réalisé ce projet. Merci de partager avec nous.


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## Brent H (Jan 30, 2020)

Merci Marc pour les compliments, oui, il a fallu du temps pour que le tour fonctionne correctement. J'ai encore des engrenages à fabriquer et d'autres articles.

Je n'ai pas pris de vidéo, merde, ça aurait été intelligent. J'ai plein de photos. Je posterai quelques photos plus tard et verrai si votre tour est le même.



Thank you Marc for the compliments, yes, it has taken a while to get the lathe working properly.  I still have some gears to make and other items.

I did not take video, , that would have been smart.  I have lots of pictures.  I will post some photo's later on and see if your lathe is the same.


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## Brent H (Feb 5, 2020)

So I had a few minutes and a chunk of cast iron so I decided to finish the taper attachment.  The last item required for function was the sliding block that rides the taper bar.  This needs to be a solid fit with no play so that your taper is accurate.  I chose the cast iron as it has lubricity properties and should wear slowly.
The cast iron piece I had was too large and I did not want to waste a bunch of it milling it down.  As DavidR8 knows, cast iron is a messy thing.   It is also hard and a biotch to cut.  I sawed my piece in half using a 4 inch x3/16 slitting saw and spray coolant.  It would have been better to slice it with a thinner saw but that is what I had (or bigger).  It took a while and I hand fed it slowly.  












After that I plowed out the centre with a roughing end mill and then cleaned things up with an1-1/4” end mill.  Final width was to be 1.375” for 0.0005” clearance. A snug slide fit.  In the middle is a 0.040” relief on either side for oil to collect and allow a nice slide.  This was milled in with a 1/2” end mill.  




















So it works perfectly!   I was able to use it to make a #2 morse Taper for a mandril used in a project for YYC.  Adjustment is super easy with an allen key and a stubby 11/16”.   The block is a crazy smooth fit and the oil actually gets a suction going so pulling it straight off it tough.  
Everything was super great that day until I noticed some play in the lathe compound and it was sticking a bit near the end of its travel..........hmmmmmm


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 5, 2020)

Merci pour les belles photos ,une photo vaut mille mots.


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## Brent H (Feb 5, 2020)

So with regards to the compound - the gib was striking the very corner of the hand wheel bracket and could not tighten up to take out slop.  So I ground a bit off of the end to allow clearance.  At that point I noticed that the slot in the gib for the the adjustment screw was loose and would allow the gib freedom to move a bit back and forth - so snug when moving into your work and then sloppy when moving back.  I decided to do a bit of fitting - well, that showed that the gib needs a whole lot more work than I imagined.  A half inch was removed from the small end and a new slot ground in.  Then the fitting - this will develop over the next day or so as my prussian blue arrived yesterday with an ink roller.  
For fun I wrote to Ryder about a new gib.  I received word back this morning: replacement gib $334.76 USD or about $450 CDN 

I will be attempting to make my own....


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## Brent H (Feb 5, 2020)

Salut Marc

votre “compond” est-il le même ou votre ”compound” utilise-t-il des “set screws”?


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## John Conroy (Feb 5, 2020)

I think they don't really want to sell you a gib. They would probably have to make one.

Nice work on the lathe Brent. I'm enjoying watching your progress.


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## RobinHood (Feb 5, 2020)

Brent H said:


> For fun I wrote to Ryder about a new gib. I received word back this morning: replacement gib $334.76 USD or about $450 CDN
> 
> I will be attempting to make my own....



Brent, was going to post here how I made my own gib, but did not want to hijack your thread. So I started a new one...

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/making-a-compound-gib.1902/


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## Brent H (Feb 5, 2020)

Cool RobinHood.

I will follow up on that - my old gib is not good - the angle is off a few degrees and the taper is off 0.020” at least.


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 5, 2020)

Brent H said:


> So with regards to the compound - the gib was striking the very corner of the hand wheel bracket and could not tighten up to take out slop.  So I ground a bit off of the end to allow clearance.  At that point I noticed that the slot in the gib for the the adjustment screw was loose and would allow the gib freedom to move a bit back and forth - so snug when moving into your work and then sloppy when moving back.  I decided to do a bit of fitting - well, that showed that the gib needs a whole lot more work than I imagined.  A half inch was removed from the small end and a new slot ground in.  Then the fitting - this will develop over the next day or so as my prussian blue arrived yesterday with an ink roller.
> Pour le plaisir, j'ai écrit à Ryder à propos d'un nouveau gib. J'ai reçu un mot ce matin: gib de remplacement 334,76 $ USD ou environ 450 $ CDN
> 
> Je vais essayer de faire ma propre ...
> ...


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 5, 2020)

Brent H said:


> The Lathe re-assembled:
> 
> View attachment 5604
> 
> ...


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 5, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Brent H, poste: 19965, membre: 1269"] Salut Marc

votre «compond» est-il le même ou votre «composé» utiliser-t-il des «vis de réglage»? [/ QUOTE]
Non je pense que j'ai mal identifié ma composante. Moi mon jeux est sur la vis du chariot transversal.


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 7, 2020)

Brent H said:


> ACME threading, the on going saga.....
> 
> Part of my restoration is to make a new tailstock quill and then line bore the tailstock and fit the new quill.  I made a quill already out of 4140 and bored in a #2 Morse Taper and then also bored the hole at the aft end for 9/16 -8 LH ACME threads for the existing hand wheel.  Cutting those threads in the 4140 ended up a failure as I found that given the right (or wrong really) engagement of the thread feed, it can occasionally lock in about a 1/4 thread out - argh!  - yes, that means making a new 1/2 nut assembly at some point.   It only takes once and the threads are not really that great .....
> 
> ...


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## Brent H (Feb 8, 2020)

> Je ne sais pas si je suis a la bonne place ? comme ont vois sur le chariot transversal (cross feed screw ) numéro 30 dans le livre( cross feed screw nut ) pièce # A-30372 . la pièce n'est pas visible ,elle se trouve au bout de la flèche. si vous savez comment je pourrais l'acheter toute infos est Bienvenue Merci



I made this part for my lathe.  Is your threaded rod 9/16 -8 Left Hand?  

J'ai fait cette pièce pour mon tour. Votre tige filetée 9/16 -8 est-elle gauche?


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 9, 2020)

Oui je pense que c'est en plein ça. Yes I think you have it  this part is in cast iron ???     Cette pièce semble être en fonte ???


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## Brent H (Feb 9, 2020)

J'ai fait ma nouvelle en bronze. J'ai un robinet à gauche 9/16 à venir. Je peux t'en faire un nouveau, mais pas avant environ 6 semaines?

I made my new one out of bronze.  I have a 9/16 left hand tap coming. I can make you a new one, but not for about 6 weeks   ?


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 9, 2020)

Brent H said:


> J'ai fait ma nouvelle en bronze. J'ai un robinet à gauche 9/16 à venir. Je peux t'en faire un nouveau, mais pas avant environ 6 semaines?
> 
> I made my new one out of bronze.  I have a 9/16 left hand tap coming. I can make you a new one, but not for about 6 weeks   ?


I am gone a try to do it if I fail I let you know Thank You I really appreciate.


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 9, 2020)

The LH ACME  9/16-8  TAP look hard to find ? this tap is not to popular ?


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## Brent H (Feb 9, 2020)

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-1pc-ACM...048975?hash=item4da0033e8f:g:9YcAAOSw9yZdDiPP


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 9, 2020)

Thank You very much


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 9, 2020)

I forget about the drill size ?   and drilling RPM ?


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## Brent H (Feb 10, 2020)

The hole is not a “standard” size.  The closest is a “Z” drill size.
Using the tables in the Machinist Handbook for ACME threads:

D= depth of the thread = P/2+ 0.010”
P= Pitch of the thread so for an 8 TPI the pitch is 1/8 = 0.125”

D =0.125/2 + 0.010 =  0.0725”  this will be how deep you cut the threads
The root diameter (bore hole size) would be 9/16-2D = 0.5625-2(0.0725) =0.4175”.

A Z drill would give you a 0.4130. That will be a bit tight so you can bore off 5 thou to get to 0.418”.
As per the Treading speed I went slow and light cuts to prevent chatter of the threading tool.  I also found it easiest to run the lathe in reverse with the threading tool facing opposite to Right hand threading and the Compound angled at 14.5 degrees in the normal orientation.


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 10, 2020)

J'ai commandé mon (tap) aujourd'hui. I order my tap today.


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## Brent H (Feb 10, 2020)

Mon parler "tech" en français n'est pas bon. Il est difficile d'expliquer certains détails plus fins. Le (tap) vous aidera énormément.


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## YYCHM (Feb 10, 2020)

Marc Moreau said:


> I order my tap today.



From where?


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 10, 2020)

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-1pc-ACM...-Left-hand/333397048975?hash=item4da0033e8f:g: 9YcAAOSw9yZdDiPP


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 10, 2020)

Please all member's let me know if you don't understand I try to put my computer with french to you and english and transfer your message in english to french for me . But sometime the word have no sense. Sorry for the problem. I am working on it. Thank you


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 10, 2020)

I found it look easy to understand in english than in french. Thank You Like I say don't hesitate to let me know if you can't understand I will use other word. I have hard time all my life to learn english but I never quit. Thank You


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## Hruul (Feb 11, 2020)

Google translate does an OK job translating.  There are definitely some words that are clearly wrong, but I can usually work out what the word or phrase is trying to say.  Thanks.


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## Johnwa (Feb 11, 2020)

Actually, as a result of your posts, some of my high school French is coming back to me.


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 11, 2020)

Parfait si vous ne comprennez pas n'hésitez pas a me le dire. Merci


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## Brent H (Feb 14, 2020)

Fixing up the magnetic chuck worked out quite well.   The corner that supports the engagement eccentric had fractured in a huge way: 





to fix it I decided to machine a new corner out of aluminum and change things out.   The piece of aluminum is a block that was used to support the feed back controls on the steering gear of our ship.  It was a scrap bin piece I nabbed about 15 years ago - LOL - but it now serves a great purpose.   I originally measured about 2.5” square and I needed it to be just over an inch thick (1.026”) so I milled it down as it would not fit in my small bandsaw - ugh - (new purchase coming perhaps - haha) 

I needed to bore in a 0.794” hole for the eccentric handle.  




That went very well and the fit was great on the eccentric shaft.  After that I milled it to the corner dimensions.  I used the original corner (assembled pieces and held in place) and centre punched the location of the original screw holes.  I used a set of transfer punches so the holes came out on the money!    I then scribed cut off lines on the original broken corner and milled just up to them on the mill.  







Since my style mag chuck doesn’t appear to take oil (no port in it anywhere) I reassembled using Lubriplate 105 after stoning the base and the top.  I then drilled out the last two dowel pins to ensure the new corner was in proper location.  After screws all tight the chuck works great !!!
Questions:  It is not 100% flat - is it wrong to skim cut a flat surface on the mill?   I have no access to a surface grinder.  







This was not a “Lathe” project but I think I will be using it to either help cut the angle on a new gib or hold the gib for scraping in.


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## RobinHood (Feb 14, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Questions: It is not 100% flat - is it wrong to skim cut a flat surface on the mill?



i think that is how they are made in the first place. (I can see milling marks on the bottom of my mag chucks). After the laminations are fused together, the surfaces are milled and ground. Once you have it on a surface grinder, you grind it to your table (usually bottom first then top second).
I would take a skim cut on the mill with a sharp fly cutter - can only make it better if it is not flat now. Mill it with the magnet ON. You could then finish it off on your surface plate with ever finer sand paper to remove any marks and make it even flatter.

great repair by the way Brent.


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## Brent H (Feb 14, 2020)

Thank you!  

It moves so well now it is night and day!  I will mag it to the mill table and clean up the bottom and then do a flip.  When I drilled the fitted pins in I could tell it had a bit of a bottom bow.  I will ink it on the surface plate and see just how bad it is just for fun.  
I did have thoughts of milling in a spline at the joints but figured since it contained no oil and the load to turn it on is solely in that corner; I left it.


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## Brent H (Feb 14, 2020)

Took about 0.0069 off the back: 



The middle was low as was one corner.
Faced the front : took off about 0.002”




 Sweet!


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## Marc Moreau (Feb 24, 2020)

Brent H said:


> A bit of information  that maybe one in a few million may find interesting......
> 
> A person on Kijiji was looking for a motor for his 10" Utilathe so I contacted him and we have a few e-mails going back and forth.  He sent me some pics of his lathe and the mount section and I got to thinking.......
> 
> ...


   Do you know how to reconize the year of my Ultilathe same at this one  ? Thank You


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## Brent H (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Marc, 

Does your lathe have a big "MODERN" cast into the head stock above the Quick Change Gearbox or does it have a lable that says *Standard Modern
* Toronto                    Windsor


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## Brent H (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Marc, 

I have tried to link a file folder of pictures for you in this icloud thing....hopefully it works?


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## Brent H (Apr 7, 2020)

Restoration on the Utilathe update:

so in the process of my restoration of a 1930 something Cincinnati No2 grinder I made a new handle for it and had to cut some 1 x 8 tpi threads.  My compound has yet to have the taper key re-made and it was a PITA to cut the threads as I only had about 1 inch of travel in the compound and things would get sloppy.  So, after making the handle I decided enough was enough and ripped apart the compound and also pulled the lead screw  out for the cross feeD as it will also get a make over.  
The cross feed lead screw is 9/16” end to end so it is a pretty straight foreword lathe job except for the 9/16 x 8 tpi Left Hand ACME threads - so will need compound running much better.  

so far I have made up a jig to hold the new taper key for final milling.  It has a 30° dovetail for the key to fit into once one side has been milled and then I need to swing the taper (about 1.4°) and then mill it.  
Here is the jig being built :




and the jig holding the original key as a demo 





The jig is aluminium and will be just off the vice to allow the 30° cutter to dimension the key.  Going to be fun!  
Will update progress.


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

Well this tapered gib for the compound was quite the project.  Cast iron is a hard material.  When you have a cutter that is a bit out of round - well it is harder to cut.  Couple that with a sudden horrible back gear sound and things can get exciting!   So after finding out my 30° end mill was out 0.0015” but being without options I slowed my feed and shifted to a slower mill speed.  Then came the grinding sound that was not the bit cutting a hair out of round - it was the Bridgeport back gears growling away.  

With everything set up and measurements on the money I proceeded to tear the head off the mill to access the back gears and see what was amiss.  I found that the gears were not engaging fully with the main drive gear and also there was a need for more grease.  After packing a half tube of grease Into the head I had one of my boys hold the main gear in position and set the lever up on the side.  Then reassembled and started milling again in a much quieter environment.  

I milled the blank to thickness and then used a 60° cutter setup (sort of a hodgepodge or cutter and holder) to cut the angle on the straight side of the gib.




once that side was done I set up with my jig for cutting the taper and just about screwed the whole thing up!   I set the compound up and used it to turn my vice to the angle required for the gib.  I used a test indicator to dial it in to 0.0000”.  Total excitement and then it dawned on me that it would cut my angle opposite to what I needed - crap, what to do......my vice has the swivel base still on it so I set a dial indicator up at zero on one edge of the  vice.  I then moved the table over to the other side of the vice and swivelled the vice until my indicator came back to zero - sweet!   I did a few other checks and things looked good!  





roughed in the angle with a roughing mill and then cut the 30° bevel with my out of round cutter.  




After milling I had several hours of scrapping and lapping and some grinding 













Yep- the front of my compound is some chowdered up still, even after welding repairs - BUT!!!!!!  The dang thing runs butter smooth now without end play !!!  Yeh me!!!     And my mill back gears are all set properly as well !!


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## PeterT (Apr 8, 2020)

Nice work.

- does your lathe have a locking mechansim, like a glorified set screw that imparts force laterally onto the gib strip? My Taiwan 14x40 does & I think its a bad design feature. I modified mine with a angled brass shoe so the screw no longer gets a chance to make bite marks down the pristine gib strip. I might have some pics if this isnt clear

- I assume you have a surface grinder & scraping tools? <envy>


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

Hey @PeterT,  my gib is secured with an adjusting screw that holds it in position. No other screws so it has to fit the taper.   One thing I noticed is that the new key that fits better has a slightly greater angle than the original - probably not the correct gib from the get go.  

gib screw: 



Surface grinder is getting a restoration and my scrapping tools - LOL - was a re-purposed carbide lathe tool that did a pretty good job!   I was pretty careful with my set up on the mill and was out only maybe a thou or two from a good fit.  After a few high spots were corrected things started working very well.  
I smooth flattened the gib on my surface plate with a piece of wet 400 grit and some WD40.  The mill marks only took a few figure 8’s to get rid of


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## John Conroy (Apr 8, 2020)

Nice work Brent, gotta love it when you set out to fix one machine and wind up having to fix 2!


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

@John Conroy - LOL - Yes indeed - it was the “feats of strength” to muscle off the mill motor and get things apart and back together.   I had it apart last year when I first got it to fix a few things - there is a lot of grease in there for sure!   It was originally missing the grease plate that keeps things from spraying everywhere - glad I replaced it - could have been one wicked mess.


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## Marc Moreau (Apr 8, 2020)

Brent H said:


> @John Conroy - LOL - Yes indeed - it was the “feats of strength” to muscle off the mill motor and get things apart and back together.   I had it apart last year when I first got it to fix a few things - there is a lot of grease in there for sure!   It was originally missing the grease plate that keeps things from spraying everywhere - glad I replaced it - could have been one wicked mess.


Very nice pictures Thank You


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## PeterT (Apr 8, 2020)

_Hey @PeterT, my gib is secured with an adjusting screw that holds it in position. No other screws so it has to fit the taper. _

Sorry, I mean a travel locking screw for cross slide, not a dovetail adjusting screw. Here is mine. And sketch of thingy I made. The wedge goes into the threaded hole & mates the dovetail angle. The steel bearing ball is between the wedge & thumbscrew end. So the screw now provides pure axial force & doesn't torque against the dovetail (which can actually make the carriage displace  a couple thou by tightening as evidenced by DRO.


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

Ah! @PeterT - no, I have nothing of the sort.  On the drawings for the newer 11/13 Utilathe and on the bigger 12,14 and 16” LD Utilathe they have a cross feed stop. I gather this would be quite handy for threading - @David_R8 made/ has one for his type lathe.  

What would you use the cross feed lock for?


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## Kelly McLaughlin (Apr 8, 2020)

Nice resurrection! That poor thing was fairly hurt : (


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

@Kelly McLaughlin , the lathe does have its challenges but I am just going over the top  for repairs.   Most people would just buy a new one - LOL making new gears will be soon


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## PeterT (Apr 8, 2020)

Brent H said:


> What would you use the cross feed lock for?



Pretty much any time you want more accuracy and/or reducing load/wear on the leadscrew nut assembly. By independently clamping the table movement you are reducing float by providing a more secure backstop. Kind of like getting in the habit of clamping any non-motion mill axis when traversing. But a lathe its probably more important; the cutting load forces want to push back against the cross bed axis. in the same direction you are applying in-feed


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## Brent H (Apr 8, 2020)

@PeterT - roger that, never really thought about that. Always made sure all components were on their load side of the thread - interesting ....


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## Kelly McLaughlin (Apr 9, 2020)

Hi Brent! In the mid 90's a friend and I did a lot of side work for the shop I worked at. He had a 9 x 20 Utilathe like the one I currently have. we thought change gears for metric threading might be a good addition so I called Standard Modern. I don't recall the exact amount but I remember thinking yup 15 or 20 years we could make that back : ) I casually asked the fellow what that lathe was worth new he without hesitation told me 10,000.00. Keep fixing you have a lot of room for sweat equity : )


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## Brent H (Apr 9, 2020)

Thanks @Kelly McLaughlin    It pretty interesting making all these things and exploring the machining world outside of the comfort zone (at times - LOL).  

I have plans to make the metric change gear assembly and the cutters etc.   It will happen at some point - LOL.  

next for the lathe is the cross feed screw and then a bunch of gears in the back.  - I should have measured more when I first had it apart!! Ugh!


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## Brent H (Apr 9, 2020)

Well, loads of disappointment and failure today....... lots of blessings and Gesundheitas going on and a few WTF’s.......

@David_R8 is super excited about his single point threading so I thought  I would set up a pictorial on inside ACME threading for him and things were going well:





sharpen bit to 29° as per ACME threading gauge





fit to appropriate thread pitch (8 in my case)





Compound at 14°





Tool cutting just at centre - remember to grind in a lot of relief to allow the top profile of the cutter to do its work without the bottom parts dragging.




Cutter is square to the work and good to go.




Zero in your dials - be sure to have the load taken up so back lash is not an issue.





Lathe set up for 8 TPI - I am making a left hand internal thread so the part will turn in reverse with the feed still straight - so feed select is in reverse to counteract the chuck rotation.




ACME depth of cut calculations - basically pitch is 8 TPI or 0.125 divided by 2 plus ten thou.  Or about 0.0725 ish.





Test cut at 0.005 and going well.  Takes practice to get in the Rhythm to back out and release the half nuts at the right moment.  
All was going according to my evil plan until the last few cuts.  I was playing safe and only going a couple thousand at a time ...... seemed my apron handle was sometimes pausing and things did not sound as sweet..... then came the bang stop - blessings- a wee WTF panic dance, some rage and then containment....... alas...... a gear (brass one) that I had repaired near the beginning of lathe restoration has decided to leave this world.   I am not sure if just the insert I made parted or if something bigger happened.  I do know that the lathe still runs and feeds in the higher thread range.  My 1-8 tpi bushing repair for the Cincinnati is fit for the bin after the last couple passes at what might be 8.3462894747420 TPI - Argh!!!

The anguish.......  anyway, will be draining oil and measuring for a new gear tomorrow.  

I still have the finer feeds so after making sure the offending gear is clear of destruction I will get things back to running and then machine a bunch of gear blanks to get machined on the mill.  

the joys of success and the agony of my feet - shower time......


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## David_R8 (Apr 9, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Well, loads of disappointment and failure today....... lots of blessings and Gesundheitas going on and a few WTF’s.......
> 
> @David_R8 is super excited about his single point threading so I thought I would set up a pictorial on inside ACME threading for him and things were going well:
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting this @Brent H I really appreciate the pictures and setup.
Totally sucks about your gear grenading! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brent H (Apr 9, 2020)

No problem @David_R8 - so close to a “here ya go mate, works like a charm.....”  I will see what tomorrow brings - if things just let go but did not disintegrate I may be able to TIG it back together and carry on.  I am without more stock though so things will have to pause on the acme bushing.


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## Marc Moreau (Apr 9, 2020)

Thank you for the beautiful pictures , for my case this is the way I understand more.  I learn this way.


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## YYCHM (Apr 9, 2020)

So, what kind of road rash is going on with this piece of stock???  Looks like it's been spun out in the chuck and I don't know what.  What is it? Brass?

Craig


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## eotrfish (Apr 9, 2020)

Looks like it could be SAE660 Rotocast bearing bronze.  The bars and/or tubes are cast oversize.  The surface finish you show is normal, in fact I've seen much rougher surface than the one you've shown.  The stuff I've gotten from McMaster-Carr lately has a much nicer finish but is still a little out of round, roughish and oversize.  And yes it looks like it has been spun in a chuck.  This stuff has a tendency to spin in the chuck because of uneven surface finish unless you really crank down on the chuck key.   It all gets better once you've skimmed the surface nasties.


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## Brent H (Apr 10, 2020)

Yes @YYCHobbyMachinist  it was a chuck spin from some past life.  It is bearing bronze, should have made a nice insert to replace the saddle threads in the Cincinnati tool grinder as those were chewed up and cast iron.  

it does have a tendency to spin as @eotrfish mentioned unless squished tightly- you can see the dimples from some other chuck it was in before.  It was a piece off the end of a much longer tube that was just long enough for the job.  It would have been machined down to OD on a mandrel had the threading worked out.  Alas...


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## Kelly McLaughlin (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi Brent! I'd rethink that order of operations. better to have equal pressure and good grip than unnecessary strain on the chuck when you're internal threading or any operation really. ; )


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## Dabbler (Apr 10, 2020)

Sorry about your gear, @Brent H - I hope the repair+cost isn't too painful!


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## Brent H (Apr 10, 2020)

@Kelly McLaughlin - the marks on that piece were not from me, it was an end cut in the scrap bin - yes, in the bin......

@Dabbler : I believe I have somewhat dodged a bullet and will be able to at least carry on with some other work - I took the assembly apart this morning.  I was going to pull this part of the lathe apart eventually (again) to remake the fine/course selector shaft as it is somewhat disgusting and remake that bronze gear as my repair was just that- repaired but not permanent.  I found something in my repair that must have been part of the failing process.

@Marc Moreau and any other Utilathe owners may be interesting in the following so bear with me as there are a bunch of pictures.

Removing the main shaft assembly starts with taking off the chuck and the top lid on the lathe.  The main shaft is held in place by the friction fit of the bearings and the collar on the back of the shaft.  This collar is used to pre-load the conical Timkin bearing at the front of the lathe.  It screws onto the drive shaft and is locked with a set screw - this set screw has a piece of brass under it to prevent the threads of the shaft from being marred - be careful not to loose it!






loosen off the set screw and undo the collar.  I put the lathe in the lowest speed to help lock it up and then using an appropriately sized punch or rod, turn off the collar.  Mine came off easily as it is just loading the front conical bearing and should not be jammed up tight.  If it is all jammed up tight it will take a few taps of a dead blow hammer on the turning rod to get it moving.






Once the collar is off, you can drive out the main shaft.  It will move fairly easily with some solid dead blow hammer blows to the back of the shaft.  Support the front of the spindle as you drive it out.






the front of the shaft will unseat from the conical bearing, once free you can then stop hammering and simply pull out the shaft by wiggling and making sure not to jam up the two gears on the shaft.  They should slip off as the shaft is pulled out.











You can lift out the smaller gear.  To get the slow speed gear out you need to pull out the speed selector shaft  - I will not be showing that as my issue is with the gear cluster on the lower left of the picture.

There is a set screw that locks a collar on the fine/course selector plunger.  Loosen it and remove the collar.  The fine/course selector shaft can now be pulled out with the drive gear attached.  The drive gear is pinned to the shaft by a brass 1/8" diameter shear pin.  Held in place with a cir clip.  If this is not brass - replace it with brass - I use a 1/8" brazing rod with the flux removed - works well
















Note how crappy that shaft looks!!  - this is why I was going to make a new one - it does have one difficult part - that round spring loaded key.....As the selector is pulled or pushed from fine - to course feed, that key is compressed into the shaft and then springs up into a key way in the gear that either drives the feed faster or slower.  The gear I am after is a bronze one that drives the courser feeds from 4 to somewhere around 24 TPI.  Having this shaft out now is good as I will make a measured drawing a reproduce it as far as possible on the lathe and then it will needsome milling for that key - there will be a bit of a fix to the way the key is fitted to make the shaft smoother in that area.  Originally a hole was drilled right through for the spring and then a piece of brass strip was hammered in to retain the spring - I think I can mill a pocket for the spring, add a small bleed hole for lubrication and that will keep the shaft smoother.....anyway...

After this shaft is out you can reach under the large slow feed (60 Tooth) gear and pop it out with the spacer and washer.  Then you can pull out the 25 tooth bronze gear that is causing me the issue -






You then have a pile of stuff on the work bench:






So - You will see that my gear did not "fail" in the sense that it is still looking quite intact.  There is, however, an issue on the inside where I made my repair.  I cut the key way in with an end mill and left it round and did not file the sides to square it up as I did not want to remove all the repair material.  I had to bore this on the mill (see start of this thread).  the rounded side was not enough to keep the spring key from collapsing under the load of 8 TPI cutting. 






So, ugh, I do not have any material to make a new one at this time and I am back to the ships on Wednesday.  I am taking lots of measurements.  This gear is a 25 Tooth 16 DP 14.5 PA - I have those cutters.  The larger slow speed gear is a 60 tooth 18 DP gear - don't have those cutters -yet......So, I will take notes on everything and then re-assemble things backwards steps.  I filed the sides of the key way flatter and will insert the gear 180 so that the loading is on the face that was not tore up.  I think what I will do is make a wide blank (like 3 gears wide) and then cut the teeth into it, properly key cut it , and then part off 3 gears for future.  The gear is only 1/2" wide so it is not a lot of material.






I will stay away from threading at the lower feeds Until I can get this fixed 100% - as I am back to work Wednesday I can leave things and make up the blanks at work and then cut the gears when I get home in a month.....argh......


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## YYCHM (Apr 10, 2020)

WOW I'm impressed!  You certainly know your way around the guts of that headstock.  How long did that tear down take to do?


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## Brent H (Apr 10, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist, if I didn’t stop to take pictures I would say I could have it apart in about 30 minutes.  To go further and pull the speed shaft (necessary to remove the big 72 tooth bull gear and the lower bracket for the feed gear drive would take another 1/2 hour or so.
If you look at Picture 1 and 2 - in order to pull the speed shaft you have to pull off the motor pulley and then take off the bearing backer plate (6 Allen screws) - this plate also supports the seal for the motor drive shaft.  Once it is off you can pull the speed shaft back.  Then you pull the bearing off the shaft for clearance and progress from there.  

I decided to just pack it in and I will make some parts on the ship so I don’t need to re-assemble to just disassemble again as I will need  to pull the speed shaft if I replace all the gears.  

looks like welding projects and some wood working for the next few days - LOL


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## Marc Moreau (Apr 10, 2020)

Wow thank you for all infos nice pictures.


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## PeterT (Apr 10, 2020)

Thanks for taking pics. Always interested to see the insides of these machines.

Was the stock gear also a bronze inner sleeve? (or brass or whatever the alloy is).
Are the stock gears steel? Hardened teeth or just cut?


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## Brent H (Apr 11, 2020)

There are two gears in the assembly that, to me, appear to be bronze - the one is the one I repaired and is the gear that takes the course thread feed.  The other is a small 12 tooth that is press fit into a 40 tooth gear.  This gear provides the drive for the large 60 tooth fine feed speed gear.  

The original gear I fixed should be just one piece.  My pictures do not show the colour very well but both the little gear and the one I will remake have that more copper colour verses the yellow of brass.   Both of the gears are also turning on a shaft all the time.  

I am thinking the other gears in the chain are cast iron, not hardened and have that cast iron type finish and colour.   The main drive shaft I believe is steel, but does not appear to have hardened gears or anything of the sort.  The main bull gear is cast iron.  

The shaft for the fine/course feed I believe to be just good quality steel - you can file it reasonably easy and lots of wear.  

from the look of the shaft and the 25 tooth gear I will make, there has been past  damage/repair - I would think that someone was changing feed direction on the fly - also there are multiple set screw dimples on the shaft in way of the stop collar.  This is odd as there really is no adjustment after install but perhaps it was not getting secured properly for a while.  

this shaft rides in 2 cast iron bores in the lathe.  Both are submerged in oil and the shaft looks ok in those areas.  Just looks terrible where the gears ride.


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2020)

You might consider the possibility that your cast iron gears are cast steel... A way to cut costs in the 70s and later was to make stuff out of cast steel and then only finish what was needed.  Making gears out of cast iron, or even maleable iron is very hard on your hobs/gear cutters due to included carbides.


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## Brent H (Apr 11, 2020)

@Dabbler you could be correct.  Further study of the main shaft shows that the D-1 end of the shaft is hardened and ground- kinda to be expected.  The gear at the back of the shaft (25 teeth) engages with the fine/course gears.  Interestingly this part of the shaft shows wear but the other 2 gears don’t show as much.  Mind you it looks like the wear is more from partial gear engagement.  

I will see what cast steel looks like on the market.   Hmmmmm


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## Brent H (Apr 22, 2020)

The update so far.....

Well, back at work of course so getting some lathe time in the evening to make some parts.  Brought a tube full of shaft material and some other stock to play with.  
Making a new fine/course gear shaft and setting up to cut the gear for a new course feed (the bronze one).  This one I will mill out as a long gear I can then part off down to required thickness. Should get 3 gears out of the 2” piece I have.   Also, since I had the lathe apart before I left I made up a measured drawing for the cross feed screw so I will make one of those as well.  




The blank for the Fine/course shaft is a piece of 3/4” cold rolled steel and it has been made - just need to get it back to the mill to make the part for the spring backed round key.




The cross feed screw was started but I am going to make it again as the 9/16 - 8 LH acme threads came out fine at the end but .....   the original was threaded with a die and the threads just end on the shaft.  There is no tool relief.  I tried to do the same but it is hard to have your lathe going, engage the half nuts and quickly drive the cutter back to 0 on the cross feed.  The first (or last) couple threads are not the best.  This was first time using a carbide 8 TPI Acme threading tool - cuts well even running backwards for a left hand thread.





You can see that the first three teeth have just a little ledge from the tool being turned in and the depth of the root diameter is not enough to allow the nut to thread up.  I did not cut that relief to start with (that was after) but you can see the lip just before the threads and how deep the relief is needed. (About 0.072” for an 8 tpi acme).  This shaft will be 9/16 OD 4140 steel rod.
I am also making new shafts and cross feed nuts and some gears for the Cincinnati project.  That project will be a separate posting because I left all my pics at home on another computer.   - ugh!   I was, however, very successful at making a new 1”- 8 TPI left hand ACME bushing that was shrunk fit into a bored out cross feed nut.  That was awesome as the part is on the eBay for $650 USD!!!

I will get some pics when I make the cross feed shaft again to show the set up etc.  
I have mandrels made up for the gear cutting so will show that as well in the future.


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## RobinHood (Apr 22, 2020)

Brent H said:


> the original was threaded with a die and the threads just end on the shaft. There is no tool relief. I tried to do the same but it is hard to have your lathe going, engage the half nuts and quickly drive the cutter back to 0 on the cross feed.



It might be easier to out-feed from 0 at the end of the thread. No need for a thread relief then. Maybe turn down a little stub at the right hand side of your shaft (as you drew it in your sketch); OD less than minor diameter. Use it to hold the shaft in the TS. Run the lathe in reverse and feed towards the headstock (lead screw turning opposite to the chuck => LH threads). You could set a dial indicator for your Z pull out mark (after 7.800 inches length) or use the DRO.


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## Brent H (Apr 23, 2020)

@RobinHood - if you are running the blank in reverse you would then have to either have your cutter upside down or on the far side of blank?


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## RobinHood (Apr 23, 2020)

Yes, cutter upside down. Most lathes don’t have enough cross slide travel to cut from the back; some  have rear-mount tool post provisions...


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## Hruul (Apr 23, 2020)

This might be a complete "newbie" idea and might not work for what yours doing (and would depend on the size of the lathe used of course) but could you turn the lathe by hand and leave the half nuts engaged?  I saw a video on this the other day from Steve Jordan on youtube.  He was running a myford7 lathe, so obviously small lathe a lot easier to turn by hand.


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## Brent H (Apr 23, 2020)

@Hruul - the lathe is a variable speed Colchester-Clausing 10 HP - in low gear it is brutal to roll over.  

I will see if I can flip the tool - only issue is if there is enough depth on the holder to get it back to centre of the stock.  Hmmmmmm

When I cut the second one (first one was the bad measure of 7” LOL) I machined a nice bit at the end to finish depth where the tool would run out.   I could, I guess, slow everything right down and dial in but I think making a small relief area will be fine.  The tough part is that the rod is only 9/16 and I have no follow rest to help with deflection.   Gotta take small cuts.  

also the lathe would probably cut on the back side except for #2 starboard ballast tank stopping the full movement of the cross feed.  - its a bit to integrated into the hull to do much with (LOL).  

for internal threading running backwards  with the cutter is great.   - anyway we will see what comes of it. - thanks for the information !


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## Johnwa (Apr 23, 2020)

A center in the tailstock will help with the deflection.


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## Johnwa (Apr 23, 2020)

Hruul said:


> This might be a complete "newbie" idea and might not work for what yours doing (and would depend on the size of the lathe used of course) but could you turn the lathe by hand and leave the half nuts engaged? I saw a video on this the other day from Steve Jordan on youtube. He was running a myford7 lathe, so obviously small lathe a lot easier to turn by hand.



I often use that method on my 9” Southbend. I would like to attach a crank to the outboard end of the spindle but haven’t come up with a way to make sure it disengages should I mistakenly hit the start switch.


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## Brent H (Apr 23, 2020)

@Johnwa - yes always have the tail stock centre going - I am threading close to 8 inches of 9/16  4140 rod so she would be whipping about pretty nasty - one of the issues we have on board is that the lathe is in a corner - no other place for it  - and it is parked with the one ballast tank bulkhead stopping full cross feed and the sewage standby holding tank  maybe 6 or 8 inches off the back side of the lathe.  We had to remove and re-locate the whole power supply for the lathe.  You pretty much need a mirror to check the sump level of the gear box as the site glass is on the back of the lathe.  Only way to manually advance the lathe would be to basically leave the gears all in play and then use the chuck key to haul over the whole assembly.  

I don't think it is super critical if I leave a landing for the tool to go into - could just use the tool cutter itself to drive into depth, retract, and then just use that place to start threading.

I am getting decent cutting with the carbide insert at about 130 rpm - leaves a good finish and peels a decent chip.  It does, however, mean that at 8 TPI you are travelling the length of the thread pretty quickly.  

I am hoping to have some stock coming in to try out new threads in the next couple days.....hopefully that goes according to plan


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## YYCHM (Apr 23, 2020)

Hey Brent,

Post an image of this ships lathe.  It's kind of hard to grasp how big or cramped things are.

Cheers,

Craig


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## Brent H (Apr 23, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist - pictures coming right up!   No tool envy Craig - LOL - our little shop is well packed with many things but - as you know - when space is a premium, sometimes you have to go without a few things.  - the shop is only about 8 feet wide and you need to keep access to valves and such (note large valve handle behind the lathe) so lots of pre planning.  
Our old lathe was a giant Kingston that could do 72 inches between centres and basically took up a lot of shop.  That giant drill press was in the corner (left of the grinder) with the grinder still in that location.  In the early years there were plenty of accidents and hospital visits due to folks getting projects all jammed into a tight spot.  The new (2009) lathe is a 13” with 24” between centres - Clausing Colchester professional 10 HP variable speed - however, it has a pretty feeble BXA (maximum) tool post and suffers from same deflection (sometimes worse) than smaller less powerful lathes.   I think the variable speed eats a lot of power as my 10” Utilathe performs just as adequately for most projects.  

Anyway, without more delay :

Back of lathe:




 
Pic of layout:





Shop space:


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## YYCHM (Apr 23, 2020)

Thanks Brent.  That's not quite as bad as I imagined.  I'm guessing you don't turn propeller drive shafts on that lathe LOL.

Craig


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## Brent H (Apr 23, 2020)

Well Craig,

Our tail shafts are something like 458 mm diameter and about 10 meters long- and yes - they have been in a lathe before - a really really big one - dude rode the apron in a control chair - very cool.
Brent


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## Dabbler (Apr 23, 2020)

@Johnwa - you could try a bendix gear.  Just like the old 'hand crank' automobiles in the old days!


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## trlvn (Apr 24, 2020)

@Brent H That's pretty cool.  Do you have a big stash of fasteners in there?  Every little thing I do seems to require a run to the hardware store for some bolt, nut, screw or washer that I don't have on hand.  Not quite so easy for you when you're on the water!

BTW, do ships generate single phase or three phase electricity?  Or both?

Craig in Oakville


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## Brent H (Apr 24, 2020)

@trlvn :  Hey Craig, so we do have a pretty substantial "stash" of fasteners, pipe fittings etc.  All over the engine room and other spaces.  Things are spread out a bit - which can be a pain from time to time - like all our precision measuring gear, some is in the cage in the cargo hold, some is in another locker on the compressor deck, some is behind #4 Main engine and some is in the shop....bolts and such - Imperial on the compressor deck, divided into fine and course threads and the metric stuff is on the mezzanine with the freshwater manifold and purification systems.  Takes a bit to figure out things - I guess a few shops would be the same - stuff in the basement, stuff in the garage, stuff in the office etc  LOL

We generate three phase power.  So we have 2 CAT C18 generators 415 KW @ 600 Vac each and 2 shaft Gens at 1200 KW @ 600 Volt 3 phase each.  The 3 phase is stepped down to 240 and 120 via transformers and then "single phase" - however, single phase would really be 2 phase....

At home you have a neutral and your hot or power line, essentially I would say a true single phase as you are running 120 on the hot wire to neutral.  On the ship you split the 120 and you have 60 volts on each leg - no neutral and a floating ground.  Most motors have a delta connection and the generators are a delta delta configuration.  You can get some that would be a delta -Wye with a neutral center tap but we do not have that type of a set up.  

The 600 volts is a bit of a PITA these days as most new fangled electrical things are 575 volts and that accounts for typical line losses etc that exist on shore based facilities.  Since we are making the electricity we can pump out a near 600 Volts.  Our motor starter cabinets all have under voltage protection so when we plug into shore we need to make sure the power is tapped at the shore transformer for 600 and not 575 volts.  We only plug in a few places so not a big problem.   We are also at 60 hz - north american frequency - we have to watch we do not receive any 50 hz motors when getting new equipment - it has happened and things do not run very well.....


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## Brent H (Apr 24, 2020)

Here we go with the new course/fine feed shaft and three blanks of 642 bronze to cut a new course drive gear.


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## John Conroy (Apr 24, 2020)

What did you use to cut the keyways?


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## Brent H (Apr 24, 2020)

@John Conroy the key ways were done on the lathe with a boring bar and tool bit sharpened to the key profile.  Headstock locked in low gear and the cutter centred on the 90°.  Use the cross feed to advance the cutter a few thou at a time and then plow out the key way with the longitudinal feed.  Takes a few passes and you can cut to depth.  This is bronze so it peels off a bit easier than steel but it works quite well.


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## John Conroy (Apr 24, 2020)

Really nice work Brent. I have to try that one of these days, I've never done a keyway.


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## Brent H (Apr 24, 2020)

@John Conroy : Thank you very much! - I will try to remember the camera next time - I have about 5 other gear blanks to make..


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## Brent H (May 14, 2020)

Home yesterday and got onto making a few things today in prep for the gear cutting:





Lots of blanks and arbors ready to go.   Working on the fine/coarse feed plunger 





Squaring up the slot corners:





The spring loaded button key all good to go:





Next up is milling some flats on the new cross feed spindle for the lathe and then I will start cutting gear teeth.


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## Marc Moreau (May 14, 2020)

Nice job


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2020)

What is the tool and where did you get it?  Is it mounted in your lathe or mill?


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## Brent H (May 14, 2020)

Hey Craig,

it is a 1/8 x 1/2 x 1-1/2 tool steel fitted to a 5/8 steel dowel with a 1/2” diameter landing on the end so it cannot push back into the tool holder.  I can take a few pics tomorrow for you if you wish.  I sharpened it so that it would cut the round curve off the milled out slot like a broach.  Worked well. Locked the mill in low gear so it could not turn and used the spindle to make the cut.  Would work on the lathe to cut a key way.


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## YYCHM (May 14, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> it is a 1/8 x 1/2 x 1-1/2 tool steel fitted to a 5/8 steel dowel with a 1/2” diameter landing on the end so it cannot push back into the tool holder.  I can take a few pics tomorrow for you if you wish.  I sharpened it so that it would cut the round curve off the milled out slot like a broach.  Worked well. Locked the mill in low gear so it could not turn and used the spindle to make the cut.  Would work on the lathe to cut a key way.



How is the tool steel attached to the 5/8 dowel?


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## Brent H (May 15, 2020)

Hey @YYCHobbyMachinist the tool is actually a solid piece of steel and then ground.

looks like a lathe job out of 4140 or higher carbon steel and then hardened and ground.  You could make one and then braze on the cutter.


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## YYCHM (May 15, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Hey @YYCHobbyMachinist the tool is actually a solid piece of steel and then ground. looks like a lathe job out of 4140 or higher carbon steel and then hardened and ground.  You could make one and then braze on the cutter.



Would 4340 work for this application?  I have some odd ball shaped 1/2" pieces (what was left from squaring a 1/2" slice from a 6.75" dia log) that I got from @John Conroy (thanks John).  I could picture milling them into bladed tools that would fit my lathe tool holder and then heat and quench them using my coffee can forge. 

Feasible or not?


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## Brent H (May 15, 2020)

Yep!

look up the heat treat on the 4340 and you should be good!!


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## Brent H (May 15, 2020)

Woo Hoo - crazy day in the shop - lots on the go !

finished off the new cross slide screw for the lathe - a few flats on the mill and a #0 taper pin teamed hole and good to go.  Some set up pics for @David_R8 I used the square block ER 32 holder with a 9/16 collet to hold the shaft. 




New shaft on the bottom with the layout dye. Threaded 9/16- 8 ACME 













So after drilling the hole I thought I would take a pic of the various sizes of drill chucks floating around the shop :





The new cross feed screw came out great!





Fit up was great and about 4 thou back lash   Another job done - then it was time to make some gears ....


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## Brent H (May 15, 2020)

So for gearing - I have a way too big 12” rotary table fitted with an 8” chuck.  Should look for an 8 or 10 bit it works!   First gear up is the bronze 25 tooth gear.  I have 3 of these - some practice ones just in case.  
Set up was pretty straight forward and I lined the cutter up on centre.  The dividing plate chosen has a 30 hole pattern and That works out to 3 turns plus 18 holes on a 90 turn/ rev rotary table.  

I set the cutter to take a full 0.135” depth of cut and had at it - cut, rotate then cut











So cool!!!

worked like a charm.  Some cutters on Covid delay for a couple cast iron ones but will get another 3 or 4 made and then lathe is pretty much set!    
@Marc Moreau pm me your address and I will mail you one of the bronze gears.


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## David_R8 (May 15, 2020)

That’s some nice work @Brent H!


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## YYCHM (May 15, 2020)

So turning an ACME thread amounts to nothing more than using a tool with the correct profile?


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## Brent H (May 15, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist - for the most part - yes!   There is some additional pucker factor cutting the left hand ones as things are going backwards and the internal ones are a little added sweat.  Biggest thing is that the cut profile takes some power as you are hogging out a trapezoid and not a triangle.  

I bought some carbide cutters - but modified the 8tpi one as it was a right handed cutter and was trimming a bit early.


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## RobinHood (May 15, 2020)

Great work Brent.



Brent H said:


> Biggest thing is that the cut profile takes some power as you are hogging out a trapezoid and not a triangle.



You could always use a 60* thread cutter to take most of the material out. Then switch to the ACME for the finish. Reduces power requirements and saves the ACME tool.


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## Brent H (May 17, 2020)

Gear making was going along quite well until what I thought might be an issue did me in .... alas....

my holder for the cutters has a #2 Morse taper and I have it fit into a #2 to 30 taper adaptor.  On my second cast iron gear (a 40 tooth) the cutter arbor spun- crap. That left me a fudged up gear.  



So the plan will be to “fix” the taper to a round profile and perhaps make a 30 taper to 18 mm gear cutter holder.  
With that gear buying the farm I couldn’t finish off the inner gears and I needed the lathe so I put in my new bronze gear and new drive shaft and the old lathe is back in business!!

I will cut the remaining gears when some cutters come in and I also need to turn a few Blanks for the Cincinnati tool grinder repair.


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## Dutchmann64 (Jul 15, 2020)

Brent H said:


> So a few weeks ago I purchased a 10' LD Standard Modern Utilathe  serial number U530.  The serial number is a bit like a submarine so I hope this project stays afloat and the lathe doesn't become a dive site somewhere.  I have not had much time to do anything with it, basically get it home to the shop and leave for work and so far I have been vicariously making plans and some parts by texting my son and getting him to send me pictures.
> 
> Research through all the Standard Modern sites and you tube videos has proven to be somewhat beneficial, however, the 10" Utilathe seems to be somewhat lacking of any accurate detailed description.  I have the manual for the 12 x 30 and it has reference to the 10 x 20 - some specifics in the parts section and a few measurements.
> 
> ...


Good morning,
I was searching for information on the same lathe and came across your forum. Just signed up. I have a copy of the manual from Racer Machine in Camebridge Ontario. They were very helpful. The guy told me this lathe was not made in 50 years!! Made me smile. The lathe we have came from our local high school and I can remember learing to thread on it many years ago.  My son went to the same school and was asked if he wanted it as they were going to remove it. So long story short we have the lathe. 


RobinHood said:


> Hi Brent, have you tried to contact SM to get an electronic manual from them? I have had good success in the past. Just give them the serial number and they should usually be able to send you documents for your specific model and even give you possibly the year of manufacture/shipping year to the first owner of the lathe.
> 
> I used to own a 9” Utilathe.
> 
> ...





Brent H said:


> So a few weeks ago I purchased a 10' LD Standard Modern Utilathe  serial number U530.  The serial number is a bit like a submarine so I hope this project stays afloat and the lathe doesn't become a dive site somewhere.  I have not had much time to do anything with it, basically get it home to the shop and leave for work and so far I have been vicariously making plans and some parts by texting my son and getting him to send me pictures.
> 
> Research through all the Standard Modern sites and you tube videos has proven to be somewhat beneficial, however, the 10" Utilathe seems to be somewhat lacking of any accurate detailed description.  I have the manual for the 12 x 30 and it has reference to the 10 x 20 - some specifics in the parts section and a few measurements.
> 
> ...


Good morning,
Just found this forum while searching up the same machine.  My son was gifted the lathe from our local high school machine shop. It was one of 13 that were once used to teach students the fine art of machining ( my self included ) many years ago. I was able to get a PDF of the manual and will up load later. I need to create smaller files.


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## Brent H (Jul 15, 2020)

That is awesome!!!!   Do you have all the parts? The cross feed and compound and tail stock etc?

I have mine running super great after lots of new part fabrication as you can see throughout the thread.  They are great machines and lots of power in a small package.  

getting gifted the lathe is so amazing!!! WOW!!

Have a read through the thread and ask any questions - Welcome to the best forum going - lots of smart folks here!


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## Tom O (Jul 15, 2020)

I believe that is the ones we used in school back in 1968.


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## Marc Moreau (Jul 15, 2020)

Dutchmann64 said:


> Good morning,
> I was searching for information on the same lathe and came across your forum. Just signed up. I have a copy of the manual from Racer Machine in Camebridge Ontario. They were very helpful. The guy told me this lathe was not made in 50 years!! Made me smile. The lathe we have came from our local high school and I can remember learing to thread on it many years ago.  My son went to the same school and was asked if he wanted it as they were going to remove it. So long story short we have the lathe.
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly the same I have.


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## Dutchmann64 (Jul 16, 2020)

Brent H said:


> That is awesome!!!!   Do you have all the parts? The cross feed and compound and tail stock etc?
> 
> I have mine running super great after lots of new part fabrication as you can see throughout the thread.  They are great machines and lots of power in a small package.
> 
> ...



Yes it has brought back some good memories;....glad my son was given the opportunity. When I has in highschool back in the late 70's I was given the chance to earn extra creditis and teach the younger kids how to run the lathe;...basic set-up with four jaw chuck , turning and threading. You get the picture!! Very cool to have that history .  I have attached a copy of the Operators Handbook and part list. Hope this is helpful as it is quite rare. Have a great day.
Dutch


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## Dutchmann64 (Jul 16, 2020)

Let me know if you are able to read . access the manual;....I am still learning to navigate this site. Have a great day.


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## Dutchmann64 (Jul 16, 2020)

Yes I have all parts including the taper attachment. Spare chucks, tool post and steady rests;......


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## Brent H (Jul 16, 2020)

That is amazing!

if you have any extra steady or follow rests I would be very interested.  So far I have made all the parts I was missing or re-made parts to new standards.  I am currently making gears for the inner workings. 

I made up a compilation manual amalgamating manuals from the 11 and 13 as some parts of the 10 and 12 transitioned as the machines were produced later in time.  Mostly the parts manual will help with identifying things.  I have received parts quotes back from Racer and they are quite high.   Justified  buying the tooling to build them myself. - LOL.  It is nice that they will still support the product.  

I believe the manual you put up (yes it is downloadable and legible ) pre-dates the merger of Standard and Modern as a company. This being indicated by the “MODERN” cast into the headstock.  Your and my lathes have the orange “standard modern” plate fitted - what is your serial number?


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## Dutchmann64 (Jul 16, 2020)

Sorry;....no spares at this time;.....I will check and update on SRN later today.  I have a name plate ;..see picture.


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## Marc Moreau (Jul 16, 2020)

The only place I could get part's is by Leblond they will make it for you but very expensive.


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## Brent H (Jul 16, 2020)

Yes,

AR Williams was the distributer used when the British company bought out Standard and modern and combined them.  I have the same plate.  My lathe is using a 1 HP motor - I think it is original to the machine and would have been an “option”.  Reason I believe it is original is that I peeled the same design of motor off a similar circa 9” Utilathe.  

Here is mine:


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## Marc Moreau (Jul 16, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Yes,
> 
> AR Williams was the distributer used when the British company bought out Standard and modern and combined them.  I have the same plate.  My lathe is using a 1 HP motor - I think it is original to the machine and would have been an “option”.  Reason I believe it is original is that I peeled the same design of motor off a similar circa 9” Utilathe.
> 
> ...


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## Marc Moreau (Jul 16, 2020)

I like it just like mine I have good tip from member this colour is nice and clean.


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## YYCHM (Jul 16, 2020)

Brent H said:


> Yes,
> 
> AR Williams was the distributer used when the British company bought out Standard and modern and combined them.  I have the same plate.  My lathe is using a 1 HP motor - I think it is original to the machine and would have been an “option”.  Reason I believe it is original is that I peeled the same design of motor off a similar circa 9” Utilathe.
> 
> ...



Brent, why does every lathe I see but mine have the compound canted over like that?  Is that the magic thread cutting angle that I have never found to make a difference?  Seems to me, it defeats the calibration of the compound dial?


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## Brent H (Jul 16, 2020)

@YYCHobbyMachinist  - yes Craig , yes  - that is the magic 29.5° degree angle ......oh man .... Ninjas!!! ——- ahahahahaah

But yes Craig, I typically leave my compound at 29.5 for threading.    For most folks it would not be that important as you would be making stuff different all the time.  My shop teach worked in the ship yards and that is the setting for the compound!!!!!


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## PeterT (Jul 16, 2020)

The compound is usually positioned (or left remaining) wherever it makes most sense. Pre-setting at threading angle is smart if that operation is forthcoming because after turning, the threading toolholder is popped on, cutter is therefore perpendicular & ready for 29.5-deg infeed. Or maybe the part has no threads but lots of 45-deg internal/external chamfers, then 45-deg is a good compound angle. Or if you need to bring the tailstock in for support, the compound may be interfering with TS so may have to be swivelled deeper to the left. Many compounds have a rectangular footprint as opposed to a round-ish footprint so it may lie more rigid swiveled to an angle where cutting forces act through more base material in that orientation. If you mount a toolpost grinder you can set the compound out to the right to nearly parallel with the lathe axis, that way a dial increment on the compound equates to a much smaller increment of equivalent in-feed. Some people like to cut like this too like creeping up on a critical dimension. Or, you can join the Kool Klub, yank your compound off altogether & install a solid toolpost LoL


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## RobinHood (Jul 17, 2020)

PeterT said:


> Or, you can join the Kool Klub, yank your compound off altogether & install a solid toolpost LoL



@PeterT - that is your solid tool post? Nice. Do you have a way to index the TP? For example parallel with Z, parallel with X or 45*?


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## PeterT (Jul 17, 2020)

No not mine Rudy. I've been collecting links & ideas & that pic was just pulled from my stash. I should have qualified that.

I've noticed different methods of fixing the toolpost by Rob.R, Stefan.G & others. Some keep it permanently square, locked with a dowel pin or angle plate on TP corner or something that looks like a mitee-bite looking cam clamp. I'm not sure if that has more to do with desire to accurately interchange tools or just removing any trace of assembly gap for max rigidity.

Personally I would still like the ability to detente the toolpost to in-between angles because certain turning ops just require the wedge/toolblock to be at some non 0-90 angle. I think the solid block vs. the sliding compound might provide majority of increased rigidity & vibration dampening so as long as the TP can be locked down sufficiently, so maybe best of both worlds? Its just a hunch right now. One thought (like the pic) was to have a dowel pin in either the base or TP and it matches a radial pattern of reamed holes in the other surface. So you would loosen the TP nut, lift TP slightly to clear extended dowel, rotate & drop into new index position & clamp down again. Or fancier maybe have half-sphere divots in the base & a sprung bearing ball in TP so it goes click,click every 15-deg or whatever but you could still position to some odd angle. Neither of these would lend themselves to the secondary locking mechanisms mentioned though.

But I have some design decisions to make so will do a CAD model. Most everyone has drilled new holes in their cross slide casting to give the widest bolt pattern footprint (within the limits of the dovetail underneath) so when the time comes I want to do it right the first time. I'd like a more stable base for toolpost grinding in particular. I know my compound assembly is a source for vibration even though the gib is locked. So in that mode the TP is removed leaving only the base block. It would be nice to make it adaptable to grinder mounting too. So far just pipe dreams!


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## Dabbler (Jul 19, 2020)

> I would still like the ability to detente the toolpost to in-between angles



Both Aloris and Dorian now make indexable QCTP versions.  On my 15" my 4 way has 12 indexed postions.  BTW I'm solidly in the 30 degree camp, not the 29.5 - sorry @Brent H

I had been dreaming and collecting materials for a solid toolpost for my 12" lathe.  Now that it is slated for sale, that project is defunct.  Curiously, my QCTP for the 15" is just a tad low (around 1/4"), so I might make an indexing plate for it to see how indexing a QCTP is a benefit or not....


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## Johnwa (Jul 19, 2020)

I’d say I’m in the 29 to 30 degree camp when threading.  Just enough to scrub the back side of the thread. The rest of the time it’s all over the place.
I’ve considered an indexing plate for my toolpost mainly to bring it back to 90 degrees.  But then I’d have to make sure my compound was at a consistent angle.


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## RobinHood (Jul 19, 2020)

PeterT said:


> I've been collecting links & ideas & that pic was just pulled from my stash. I should have qualified that.



No worries Peter. I knew you were thinking about a solid tool post - thought maybe you had a chance to make one.


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## RobinHood (Jul 19, 2020)

With HSS tooling I tend to have the compound at 30* for all SAE & Metric threading.

If I use carbide threading inserts, it is at 30* for ~12 TPI and coarser (to reduce the cutting pressure). Finer than 12, I just plunge in - so the compound is usually parallel to Z on the Colchester (no DRO). // to Z makes it easy to face to precise dimensions; the travel dial on the carriage only reads in 0.010”. Compound is in whatever the last position was on the SM1340 (it has a DRO).


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## Brent H (Nov 23, 2020)

Today was awesome and I needed to resurrect the old thread to add some information.  Since the big rebuild I have been waiting on making a few more gears and just getting things dialled right in. When things are going well I can get the lathe to less than 0.0005” over a foot or more, and yes I can be picky - hahahahaha -

  One thing that was bothering me was that when operating back from the headstock, near where you might start a  cut on a longer shaft type thing I noticed that when I started to advance the saddle of the lathe it would slightly lift or deflect at the front.  I thought this very odd - especially since I still was getting decent cut results - most of the time. 

The second thing that bugged me was the play when advancing the apron. If you were threading the hand wheel would sometimes rock back and forth making little bumps. 

Before heading to work I thought to just tear things apart and take some measurements- then the epiphany!! 

when rebuilding the lathe apron there is a plate (page 13 part number 3) “Gib Plate” but nothing more is referenced. 
It is indicated by the red arrow:





So with Spidey Senses tingling I did some measuring.   Well-   Ha!  One side (back side) was 0.614” and the front was 0.624 - Interesting— so then I measured under the lathe from the machined surface of apron to the lathe bed and got an average of 0.610 with a bit of wear in spots but not bad.  So “GIB PLATE” -  light bulbs all coming on —— I loosened off the 4 Allen Head bolts and adjusted the GIB PLATE to be 0.612” front and back.  Thinking 0.002” clear would be OK. 




Then comes the second light bulb - way back when, @YYCHobbyMachinist bought a lathe in Ontario and @Chicken lights and I transported and shipped parts all over.   One thing I kept back was the rack for the pinion that the hand wheel drives to advance the apron.  Couldn’t be the same .... IT WAS !!! Ya baby - and it was pristine after an hour of scrubbing -  compared to the one I had original on the lathe.  Also the original had a bum retaining screw hole that would loosen from time to time - note the wear and raised edges:





So with all that changed out I adjusted the locking nuts on the Rear Saddle Gib and checked the fit of everything else - WOOO HOO!  Less than 1/2 thou deflection if that and the apron was running super smooth!  Still some play in the hand wheel but way way less - Excellent!!!

Here is a diagram that may help with clarity.   The rear saddle Gib is mentioned in the manual but nothing about the front one.  





Super cool - grabbed some other measurements for future projects - like a ball turner .  Since my other posting about black nuts was well received I figure a brass ball maker can’t go wrong .


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## Dabbler (Nov 23, 2020)

Nice illustration!  Very well done!  I have some PM to do on a couple of my aprons as soon as I get caught up on all the other things!

Great fix!


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## Brent H (Mar 2, 2021)

And the feed gear parts are finally done. Lathe is working fine with the present gears but I had the blanks and needed to get this completed.  
















The wee 12 tooth 18 DP bronze gear is loctited and pressed into the larger cast iron gear.  The ID was then reamed to 0.375”.  The grey gears are all impact resistant ductile cast iron and the gold gears are all bronze, I think they are 544 high stress bronze for greater wear resistance.  
I have a couple more gears to finish for the outer drive but those are 20° pressure angle and, alas, I do not have those particular cutters - yet!!!  BAHAHAHA.... cough cough -


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## David_R8 (Mar 2, 2021)

That is some nice work!


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## gerritv (Mar 2, 2021)

Good job on the gears.


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## Brent H (Mar 2, 2021)

Thanks guys .  I found that the “Chinese” cutters seem to have a few out of round issues - maybe a couple thou.  To combat that I make sure the depth is set to the cutter tooth that just touches the work first.  You will see a bit of the “chatter” type pattern in the wee bronze gear.  The gears mesh well so things must be going ok - LOL.  

I had the rotary table set up in the mill so finished off the gears I could as I need the mill for making a few other items - ahh the fun!!!


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## Brent H (May 7, 2021)

@Salem747 
Here are some pics and drawings of the threading dial assembly:


































@Salem747 : that is what I have for you at this time.  Hopefully that can get you on track.


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## Salem747 (May 7, 2021)

Brent H said:


> @Salem747
> Here are some pics and drawings of the threading dial assembly:
> 
> View attachment 14640
> ...


Oh snap! So that gear runs on the round shaft AND the spur gear! Wow. I wonder if lablonde can make this.

How do you index it? Hmm.


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## RobinHood (May 7, 2021)

Actually only the lead screw engages/drives that gear.

The picture above makes it seem as if it engaged both the carriage rack above and the lead screw below at the same time. It does not.


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## Salem747 (May 7, 2021)

RobinHood said:


> Actually only the lead screw engages/drives that gear.
> 
> The picture above makes it seem as if it engaged both the carriage rack above and the lead screw below at the same time. It does not.


Ok, I wonder why they shaped it that way, maybe to engage the round lead screw better?


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## Brent H (May 7, 2021)

@Salem747 : the gear (#39 in the manual) is a worm gear and rides on the lead screw.  On the Utilathe the lead screw is 7/8” diameter and 8 threads per inch acme.  The worm gear (I will have to check on measurements etc is a 24 DP 14.5 PA.  

To index it properly, (do this at the tailstock end of the lathe as you can tighten the set screw on the gear).  With the set screw loose, move the apron until you can engage the thread handle. With the thread handle engaged, rotate the thread dial to a number.  Once on the number, tighten the set screw securely.  That should set your indication.


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## Brent H (May 12, 2021)

@Salem747 :

here are some pics of the 16” Utilathe:

























Does that seem more like your lathe?


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## Salem747 (May 12, 2021)

Yes! that is my machine.

Does the shaft have a flat where the set screw holds the gear on?


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## Brent H (May 12, 2021)

Hey @Salem747 :  There is no flat to locate the set screw.  This allows for the indexed head to be rotated and properly aligned with the indicator.  The indicator on the 16" Utilathe looks to be part of the apron casting.


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## Salem747 (May 12, 2021)

Yes, I will look when I get home. There is just a hole through the apron. I'll check to see there is an indication mark there on the apron.


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## Salem747 (May 13, 2021)

I also notice that you snuck in a teaser photo of the taper attachment, very sneaky!


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## Brent H (May 13, 2021)

LOL - Thought you might like that


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