# Excello 602 Power Feed Repair



## Safarir (Dec 29, 2021)

I decided that I wanted to fix the power feed on my Excello 602. The 602 have a power feed mounted on the knee which is basically a DC servo motor and a speed controller. The servo is constantly turning and when the lever on the saddle is engaged, a spline shaft is engaged that connect to the lead screw via a gear near the hand wheel.

On my machine, the electronic seem functional but I am missing some hardware:
- Spline shaft
- Spline shaft gear
- Feed coupler
- 2x Trust washers

I have yet to figure out how I will make the spline shaft or the feed coupler, so I decided to start with the gear.





This picture show the gear attached to the lead screw. The hole on the right is the bronze bearing for the spline shaft. I need to make the matching gear, so first step is to identify the gear I already have.




Some quick math reveal that it is a 30 teeth gear ;p

Also, with it diameter of 2", it seem to be a 16DP. After measuring the distance between the axis of the leadscrew and spline shaft, I calculated that the matching gear should be 14 teeth.

The last question is what is the contact angle ? I did not find any good reference on how to measure that, so I started by scanning the gear with a document scanner.




I then generated a 14.5° and 20° contact angle gear in fusion360 and compared the profile:

14.5°





20°





From those picture, the 20° contact angle seem a better fit, which is quite surprising to me as 14.5° seem more common. Does someone have a better way to identify the contact angle ? Those gear cutter are pretty expensive, so I don't want to end up buying the wrong one.


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## YYCHM (Dec 29, 2021)

Results Page 1 :: KBC Tools & Machinery
					






					www.kbctools.ca


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## Safarir (Dec 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Results Page 1 :: KBC Tools & Machinery
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think those are all 14.5° pressure angle ... and way too expensive ...


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## YYCHM (Dec 29, 2021)

Your gear sure looks like a 14.5 to me.  Been down this road twice now.  How old is the machine?


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## Safarir (Dec 29, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Your gear sure looks like a 14.5 to me.  Been down this road twice now.  How old is the machine?


Between 1975 and 1982 I think


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## YYCHM (Dec 29, 2021)

Are gears with the same Diametral Pitch (DP) guranteed to mesh?
					

I'm looking for a 28 tooth mate for this 14 tooth gear.....      The DP appears to be 16.  The only gears that match the required diameters on the McMaster-Car website are 16 DP 14.5 PA gears.  So is going with 16 DP 14.5 PA a safe bet?




					canadianhobbymetalworkers.com


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## Mcgyver (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Your gear sure looks like a 14.5 to me.  Been down this road twice now.  How old is the machine?



The scans above looks 20 degrees - based on the overlaid images?  

According to Engineering Tips, the 14.5 standard was officially dropped in the early '70's however 20's were common if not the majority long before that.  My '42 Monarch for example is 20.

Those leaf gauges do give a strong hint at the right pressure angle.  I've a boston gear set with 14.5 and 20 and one will roll over the teeth more smoothly than the the other.  If you are local (toronto, locations no longer appear on the left margin) happy to have you come by and try it.  There is also a way with a gear tooth vernier to measure by going across several teeth.   I've done but so but infrequently I'd have to google for figure it out again


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## LenVW (Dec 30, 2021)

Used to work for ExCellO back 30 years ago as a machinist.
Last year I ran across a guy here in Cambridge, Ontario, who rebuilds ExCellO 602s.
Roy could help you out for parts, etc.

Preston Rebuilt Machinery     Roy Weidinger  C. 519-621-4258
Email: info@redcam


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




Not seeing a 20PA 16DP 14 Tooth offered?


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## Safarir (Dec 30, 2021)

LenVW said:


> Used to work for ExCellO back 30 years ago as a machinist.
> Last year I ran across a guy here in Cambridge, Ontario, who rebuilds ExCellO 602s.
> Roy could help you out for parts, etc.
> 
> ...


This is awesome ! Do you have any idea what happen with the company documents (mostly drawing) when they stopped production ?

I emailed that guy, thank you for that.



Mcgyver said:


> The scans above looks 20 degrees - based on the overlaid images?
> 
> According to Engineering Tips, the 14.5 standard was officially dropped in the early '70's however 20's were common if not the majority long before that.  My '42 Monarch for example is 20.
> 
> Those leaf gauges do give a strong hint at the right pressure angle.  I've a boston gear set with 14.5 and 20 and one will roll over the teeth more smoothly than the the other.  If you are local (toronto, locations no longer appear on the left margin) happy to have you come by and try it.  There is also a way with a gear tooth vernier to measure by going across several teeth.   I've done but so but infrequently I'd have to google for figure it out again


I am unfortunately in the Ottawa region. Our location should really show under our name.


Now, does anyone have a source for a DP16 PA20 #7 gear cutter. I emailed a bunch of Chinese provider without success, they seem to only have hob in that format. For some unknown reason, KBC only list #2, #3, #4 and #8 . There is a 2 listing on ebay that look promising, but they are located in the UK.

There is also one guy around Toronto that have a 36" spline shaft and the gear, but he is asking 220$ + shipping. I could probably use the spline shaft with a extension and the gear but I would still need to make the feed coupler (that slide on the shaft). I think I prefer to spend the money on tooling and spend 6 months making my own.


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## RobinHood (Dec 30, 2021)

Travers Tool has them:

https://www.travers.com/category/gear-cutters?pressure_angle_1391%5B0%5D=20°&diametrical_pitch_2850%5B0%5D=16


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

Still not convinced it's 20PA.  Can't find a match for the 16DP, 30T or 14T in 20PA but I can find a match for both in 14.5PA, including the 2" OD for the 30T.


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## Safarir (Dec 30, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Still not convinced it's 20PA.  Can't find a match for the 16DP, 30T or 14T in 20PA but I can find a match for both in 14.5PA, including the 2" OD for the 30T.


I am not sure how I could get more accurate that the scan ... Is there any other measurement I should do ?



RobinHood said:


> Travers Tool has them:
> 
> https://www.travers.com/category/gear-cutters?pressure_angle_1391%5B0%5D=20°&diametrical_pitch_2850%5B0%5D=16











						TTC 10-289-167 2-1/2
					

Involute Gear Tooth Cutter from TTC Production for Precision Milling Gears. TTC has designed these gear cutters to deliver easy and error-free machining of gear pitches. These high-end gear cutters provide you with pressure angles of 14-1/2 degrees and 20 degrees. These gear tooth cutters are...




					www.traverscanada.com
				




174$ CAD ... I was hoping for something around 50$ ...


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## LenVW (Dec 30, 2021)

Here is a little history about Ex-Cell-O Corp.
I worked at their Special Tools Division in Clinton, ON (1980-85)
It was a feeder plat for the larger London plant.


In 1948 Ex-Cell-O acquired Robbins Engineering Co. of Detroit, whose primary line of business was jet-engine rotors and related components, but also had a machine tool business, including magnetic chucks, sine bars and sine plates. In 1958 Ex-Cell-O acquired the Bryant Chucking Grinder Co., of Springfield, Vermont, whose line of production grinding machines dovetailed nicely with Ex-Cell-O's line of special-purpose grinding machines. In 1963 they acquired honing machine maker Micromatic Hone Corp., and in 1968 they acquired woodworking machinery maker Greenlee Brothers & Co. of Rockford, Illinois. In 1977 they acquired McCord Corp., maker of automotive, industrial and agricultural products.

In 1986 Ex-Cell-O was acquired by defense-industry conglomerate *Textron*, and at some point the machine tool division became *Ex-Cell-O Machine Tools, Inc.*

Ex-Cell-O began laying off all employees on April 28, 2006. So far as we know, parts and service for Greenlee machinery are no longer available. Many of the Ex-Cell-O machine tool products are supported by Kenrie, Inc., of Holland, Michigan.

In Canada, *Ex-Cell-O Corporation of Canada, Ltd.*, was located at 120 Weston Street in London, Ontario, where they manufactured a very successful line of heavy machine tools such as ram-type milling machines.

Ex-Cell-O's product lines varied over the years. In their early years they made grinding machines, including *Carboloy* branded grinders that were sold by Carboloy, Inc., a maker of tungsten carbide and tooling. By the early 1940s they were also making high-precision machinery including including boring machines, facing machines, thread grinders, and lapping machines. By the early '50s their machines had become progressively more massive and precise. Cylinder boring machines and vertical boring mills were among the machine-tool products that had been added to an increasing diverse product lineup. Ram turret milling machines joined the lineup and these were exceptionally heavy and rigid, and as with most Ex-Cell-O machines they were hand-scraped and fit to achieve the tightest possible tolerances.


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## Susquatch (Dec 30, 2021)

Safarir said:


> Now, does anyone have a source for a DP16 PA20 #7 gear cutter. I emailed a bunch of Chinese provider without success, they seem to only have hob in that format. For some unknown reason, KBC only list #2, #3, #4 and #8 . There is a 2 listing on ebay that look promising, but they are located in the UK.



I might have one I could loan you. I'll check in the morning.


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## YYCHM (Dec 30, 2021)

Safarir said:


> I am not sure how I could get more accurate that the scan ... Is there any other measurement I should do ?



With luck Preston Rebuilt Machinery can answer the question?


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## LenVW (Dec 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> With luck Preston Rebuilt Machinery can answer the question?


The last time I stopped in to see Roy at PRM he had (8) 602s tore down.
I am past his shop daily. (He may be off until Jan.4)

Hey Craig, what does YYCHM mean ?
I thought ‘CHM‘ might be your home airport.
There are a lot of you guys out in Western Canada !!


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## YYCHM (Dec 31, 2021)

LenVW said:


> The last time I stopped in to see Roy at PRM he had (8) 602s tore down.
> I am past his shop daily. (He may be off until Jan.4)
> 
> Hey Craig, what does YYCHM mean ?
> ...



YYC = Calgary, HM = Hobby Machinist.  I started out as YYCHobbyMachinist but that handle is way too long LOL.


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## LenVW (Dec 31, 2021)

I figured it had something to do with the airport.
I was a pilot back in the 1990s, but have not flown since.
Just single engine, VFR (Cessna 152 & 172).


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## YYCHM (Dec 31, 2021)

LenVW said:


> I figured it had something to do with the airport.
> I was a pilot back in the 1990s, but have not flown since.
> Just single engine, VFR (Cessna 152 & 172).



1990s eh, same here only I trained in and rented a Grumman Cheetah.  Spin training was in a Piper something or other.


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## Susquatch (Dec 31, 2021)

YYCHM said:


> Spin training was in a Piper something or other.



This is what killed my young man's dream to build and fly a home built amphibious plane. 

No way was I EVER gunna deliberately put a plane into a spin just to prove I could pull out of it. I even bought plans. They were given away when I was told spin training was not optional. 

I always loved flying. But now it's just an hour or two on MSoft Flight Simulator or a flight or two piloting an RC chopper.


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## YYCHM (Dec 31, 2021)

Susquatch said:


> No way was I EVER gunna deliberately put a plane into a spin just to prove I could pull out of it. I even bought plans. They were given away when I was told spin training was not optional.



Sounds like me and sky diving or bungee jumping for that matter.  Wife gave me money to take sky diving lessons one year, I bought a fly rod instead


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## LenVW (Dec 31, 2021)

My flight training started in London, then Goderich and finishing in Stratford.
It can be an expensive habit, but, pilots have a common desire to get airborne.
It led to a few invitations to the flight deck of 747s while crossing the Atlantic and travelling to Europe for work (Pre 9/11, of course). I took a Cessna on a memorable flight over the Great Barrier Reef off the coast of Australia, near Cairns.

When I was dating my wife I took her up for a short scenic flight around the Stratford area and she proceeded to vomit on me and pass out. I proceeded to hold her up with one hand and land the plane with the other.  I thought it was time to step back from flying, buy a house and concentrate on my new career as a mechanical designer.

Note: ‘Spin-training’ is used so that you recognize that the plane is in a dangerous attitude and your control can diminish quickly If you do not make proper adjustments to the controls.

After a twenty year absence . . .
I have joined the ’Kitchener Waterloo Recreational Aircraft Association’ just to get some updates about aviation issues and plane ownership in this era.


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## Tom O (Jan 1, 2022)

You’ll only drop around 500feet.


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## YotaBota (Jan 1, 2022)

When flying if you want to go up, pull back on the stick,,,,,,, to go down, pull back more! I loved burning holes in the sky and throwing my Dad's Luscombe for a loop - literally.


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## YYCHM (Jan 1, 2022)

YotaBota said:


> When flying if you want to go up, pull back on the stick,,,,,,, to go down, pull back more! I loved burning holes in the sky and throwing my Dad's Luscombe for a loop - literally.



Ya, can't imagine using a stick.  Yoke yes, stick not so much.   Son bought me an hours worth of F18 simulator time for x-mas , will see how that goes


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## SparWeb (Jan 1, 2022)

@Susquatch,​Why didn't you get an Ercoupe?


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## Susquatch (Jan 1, 2022)

SparWeb said:


> @Susquatch,​Why didn't you get an Ercoupe?



I think you are having fun with me but I'll humour you anyway.... 

The fact that they don't really spin didn't stop me from being scared to death of spinning in whatever plane I would have had to get my license in........ 

Well, that is not the complete truth. Might also be because they don't land on water very well...... 

The seawind I wanted to build didn't stall. It would just plow. Or as I recall, some described it as wallowing. It was a pusher so lots of things were quite different. 

Anyway, it really was spin training that turned me off. I hate circus rides. Even a ferris wheel gives me the willies. In fact, I almost passed out looking down through the glass floor at the top of the CN tower. I guess that sounds quite odd since I do love to fly. But they are different in some way that I simply can't explain.


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## YYCHM (Jan 1, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Even a ferris wheel gives me the willies. In fact, I almost passed out looking down through the glass floor at the top of the CN tower. I guess that sounds quite odd since I do love to fly. But they are different in some way that I simply can't explain.



Ha, you sound like me  I hate heights, yet I took up flying for some reason.  There is just no way I'm gonna jump out of perfectly good plane.  As long as I have walls on either side of me I'm fine.  My wife on the other hand was almost on her hands and knees when we visited the grand canyon, yet she took up sky diving briefly?


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## SparWeb (Jan 1, 2022)

Hi Susquatch,
I was sort-of pulling your leg.  I actually know what you mean.  I've been in several spins myself.  Each time - the only way I can describe it is my own brain's internal gyros tumbled, and stayed tumbled for a while after.  I love flying, too, but could not maintain orientation during a spin no matter how many times my instructor exposed me to it.  And that was in my 20's.  Now I'm a wee bit older - I have no hope of ever handling a spin.  I would gravitate to certified aircraft only, so that at least I'd know I should have a chance at recovery, and the odds of a spin are small no matter how hard I screwed up.  In full-cert planes you are vastly more likely to be in a disorientation/spiral dive kind of accident if you make a smoking hole.  Not that it's much consolation to anyone.  Follow a rigid set of rules and you won't get into that situation.

Consider yourself lucky you didn't actually get a Seawind.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

SparWeb said:


> Consider yourself lucky you didn't actually get a Seawind.



Hmmmm. Perhaps you know something I don't. Why do you say that? 


YYCHM said:


> As long as I have walls on either side of me I'm fine.



That's a GREAT WAY to put it. I'd only add that I don't mind a nice big window. Just not one that I might break and fall through.......


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## 6.5 Fan (Jan 2, 2022)

My flying boils down to twice, a little Cessna back in the 60's and a chopper ride in a Stars Helicopter. My opinion is that somebody has to stay on the ground to call 911 for the other guy. I don't even go more than 3 steps up on a ladder.


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## Darren (Jan 2, 2022)

I went for a ride-a-long with a student pilot who was putting his hours in on a small Cessna . We did several stalls and tail slides. What a ride. can't imagine a spin.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

dfloen said:


> I went for a ride-a-long with a student pilot who was putting his hours in on a small Cessna . We did several stalls and tail slides. What a ride. can't imagine a spin.



I used to ride along with my mom's brother in a Cessna who needed the hours. Then my supervisor who needed the hours in his own cessna. Then recently with my brother in law who tolerated me in his chopper because I keep his wife's sister happy. I LOVE CHOPPERS! 

If any of them had deliberately spun or stalled or otherwise caused me to contemplate the duration of my continued existence, I would have crapped all over the inside of those birds rendering them useless and unflyable by another human for at least 150 years. 

Thankfully, they didn't do that. But they all regularly did let me take the controls, and I loved it.


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

One of my flight instructors was a ‘crazy bush pilot’ from Dryden, Ontario.
He used to love doing spins and side slips and he used to say . . .
The only time you can legally perform a ‘Spin’ is during flight training, once you are licensed someone can report you for being a hazard to others.

**Back to Tool & Die** . . . Anybody ran across some deals on Indexable Flycutters ?
Here in Kitchener we have SOWA Tool but they are pricey.
KBC Tools in Mississauga is another that I know of already.
Any others I can check out ?


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Anybody ran across some deals on Indexable Flycutters ?
> Here in Kitchener we have SOWA Tool but they are pricey.
> KBC Tools in Mississauga is another that I know of already.
> Any others I can check out ?



I have been looking at getting one too. So far the only reasonable pricing I have found is on Ali and Bangood. I prefer to buy Canada but have not been able to find anything reasonable. That hasn't really been an issue for me just yet because I have several HSS Fly Cutters that work just fine. 

That gives me lots of time to research the subject before actually pressing the buy button. 

Do you really mean fly cutter or did you mean face cutter? Not that I really know the difference. I guess I just think of a fly cutter as just one cutting tip on a balanced tool (usually HSS), and a face cutter as a multi-tip cutter (usually indexable carbide) that is inherently balanced. LOL!


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I have been looking at getting one too. So far the only reasonable pricing I have found is on Ali and Bangood. I prefer to buy Canada but have not been able to find anything reasonable. That hasn't really been an issue for me just yet because I have several HSS Fly Cutters that work just fine.
> 
> That gives me lots of time to research the subject before actually pressing the buy button.
> 
> Do you really mean fly cutter or did you mean face cutter? Not that I really know the difference. I guess I just think of a fly cutter as just one cutting tip on a balanced tool (usually HSS), and a face cutter as a multi-tip cutter (usually indexable carbide) that is inherently balanced. LOL!




I have quite a few delta carbide inserts and was looking for a face & fly cutter.
(You may be thinking of flycutters that have a single HSS tip cutter)
The indexable cutters use carbide inserts with multiple cutting edges.


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Safarir said:


> This is awesome ! Do you have any idea what happen with the company documents (mostly drawing) when they stopped production ?
> 
> I emailed that guy, thank you for that.
> 
> ...



Did you get any answers from Roy at Preston Rebuilt Machinery ?
He can get busy, let me know and I can stop by his shop.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

LenVW said:


> I have quite a few delta carbide inserts and was looking for a face & fly cutter.
> (You may be thinking of flycutters that have a single HSS tip cutter)
> The indexable cutters use carbide inserts with multiple cutting edges.



I've been milling on a drill press with quill bearings and an old column mill-drill that's prolly similar to what others call an RF30 for years. But I'm new to milling with a nice Bridgeport Clone machine now. So I'm still learning.

This is what I call a fly cutter. I have several. They do a nice job if I keep the hss tool sharp.






And this is what I call a face cutter. Although Accusize calls it an endmill. I'd like one like this to feed a bit faster, but I'm not really taken with the triangular carbide tips on this one. I think (not really sure) that a double point tip (square) would do a better job.







Both photos are from Accusize in Toronto.

Here is the square carbide tip version I'm leaning towards.






Most of the YouTube videos I have watched call the last two a face cutter. Prolly because very few will cut along an deep edge and they are mostly used for surface milling.

Anyway, the point of my post was to ask you to keep me apprised of what you learn and any deals you encounter.


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Now I understand. 
The ACCUSIZE 3” is an indexable carbide insert cutter that I used to make for Ex-Cell-O back in the 1980s. They are production class tools and the speeds and feeds are vastly higher then used for single point HSS tools. 
I will keep looking for a  1” dia. (2 insert) milling tool. Anything larger and I risk going through fuses on my  KING 3/4hp mill. 
I will let you know if I find any deals.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Now I understand.
> The ACCUSIZE 3” is an indexable carbide insert cutter that I used to make for Ex-Cell-O back in the 1980s. They are production class tools and the speeds and feeds are vastly higher then used for single point HSS tools.
> I will keep looking for a  1” dia. (2 insert) milling tool. Anything larger and I risk going through fuses on my  KING 3/4hp mill.
> I will let you know if I find any deals.



I see. So if I understand you, you are looking for something like this?


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## YYCHM (Jan 2, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Now I understand.
> The ACCUSIZE 3” is an indexable carbide insert cutter that I used to make for Ex-Cell-O back in the 1980s. They are production class tools and the speeds and feeds are vastly higher then used for single point HSS tools.
> I will keep looking for a  1” dia. (2 insert) milling tool. Anything larger and I risk going through fuses on my  KING 3/4hp mill.
> I will let you know if I find any deals.



I have this set... https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00HSRD1K4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

What do you mean by Delta Inserts?


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> I see. So if I understand you, you are looking for something like this?
> 
> View attachment 19393


You got it !!
I have been using some 1/2” End Mills for the time being. I bought 1/4”, 3/8” and 1/2” collets because I have a couple dozen 2 and 4 flute end mills from years ago. The Carbide Flycutter will toss quite a few more chips with less load on my mini mill.


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

YYCHM said:


> I have this set... https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00HSRD1K4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> What do you mean by Delta Inserts?


That is one of the tools that I was looking at.
We used to call ‘triangular’ inserts  Delta Style .


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

Not sure I understand why the indexible carbide is better than a plain hss or carbide end mill in the smaller sizes Len.

Carbide and high speed steel endmills are readily available and have the advantage of being able to both plunge cut and cut along a very deep edge.

I'm kinda stretching here, but I also suspect they would outlast and be cost comparable to inserts. You can buy plain old end mills super cheap on Ali. 

Anyway, always willing to learn. 


YYCHM said:


> I have this set... https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00HSRD1K4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Do those fit a 3/4" welden shank?


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## YYCHM (Jan 2, 2022)

Susquatch said:


> Not sure I understand why the indexible carbide is better than a plain hss or carbide end mill in the smaller sizes Len.
> 
> Carbide and high speed steel endmills are readily available and have the advantage of being able to both plunge cut and cut along a very deep edge.
> 
> ...



Not sure, maybe, they have a flat.  I just use a 3/4" R8 collet.


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Indexable carbide inserts are used in production shops because it is quicker to switch to another cutting edge without having to reset the tooling position. When it comes to production shops cycle time is the important factor. They are also available with negative or positive clearances depending on what material you are machining. They even call the one tool in the LINK above  ‘a hogger tool’ because that is a machinist term for removal of a large amount of material before a finishing cut is carried out.

I remember grinding HSS bits to use in the school shops, but, except for special cutting forms you do not find machinists grinding tool forms in production shops unless they are in a small or specialized shop.


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## Susquatch (Jan 2, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Indexable carbide inserts are used in production shops because it is quicker to switch to another cutting edge without having to reset the tooling position. When it comes to production shops cycle time is the important factor. They are also available with negative or positive clearances depending on what material you are machining. They even call the one tool in the LINK above  ‘a hogger tool’ because that is a machinist term for removal of a large amount of material before a finishing cut is carried out.
> 
> I remember grinding HSS bits to use in the school shops, but, except for special cutting forms you do not find machinists grinding tool forms in production shops unless they are in a small or specialized shop.



That all makes perfect sense in production. But why would we hobbiests want that?


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## LenVW (Jan 2, 2022)

Some of us do not have 2-5hp motors on our workcenters and need to find other ways of completing operations for projects. With the use of innovative cutters (cemented carbide inserts in this case) I may be able to remove material at a reasonable rate without exerting too high a load on my mini-mill.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Some of us do not have 2-5hp motors on our workcenters and need to find other ways of completing operations for projects. With the use of innovative cutters (cemented carbide inserts in this case) I may be able to remove material at a reasonable rate without exerting too high a load on my mini-mill.



I didn't intend to slight the size of your mill Len. It looks like you took it that way, but it wasn't my intention. I really was seriously wondering why indexible was desireable to you in order to understand why I might like it too. I'm always trying to learn.

While I do have a 2hp Bridgeport, I've used a 1/2hp mill drill for the last 10 years and a drill press with side bearings before that.

I understand the indexing advantage. I also understand the convenience factor. But I'm not sure I understand why speed is important for hobbiests like us. I guess I'm just old with lots of patience. I don't mind taking smaller cuts and enjoy the journey. Especially if it saves me money.

BTW, about half the tools I use on my lathe are indexable carbide. The rest are HSS. On the lathe, I like the convenience of not having to sharpen tools and the cost is a wash. But when I have work to do that matters, I use hss.



LenVW said:


> Anybody ran across some deals on Indexable Flycutters ?



Here are a few options I ran across using your definition of fly cutter. 



			Amazon.ca
		




			Amazon.ca
		


These might be too big but they did appeal to me. 



			Amazon.ca


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## LenVW (Jan 3, 2022)

Don’t worry about being critical. 
I am experimenting and trying to get the most out of my little mill.
Keep those ideas and comments coming, when I was working at process design, the more input the better, good ideas come from many avenues & experiences.

I have not done very much machining In the last twenty years and I am gasping at the price of these cutters and inserts. When I was a machinist, the area manager provided them for our workorders and all the tool and die makers helped each other with setups and jigs.

Of course if I was to use HSS bits, I would have to get a pedestal grinder and my wife would have a FIT when the sparks started flying in our basement.  LOL


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

I like the R8 integrated type - I get better results. You don't have to spend that much either. Look on Aliexpress. Those accusize ones are made in china anyway so you might as well skip the middleman. look at MZG and nicecutt on aliexpress. I got all these from Ali. Except for the little hoggers from accusize.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

LenVW said:


> Of course if I was to use HSS bits, I would have to get a pedestal grinder and my wife would have a FIT when the sparks started flying in our basement. LOL



Omg! You don't have a grinder? That's a bit like saying you don't own a screw driver! I couldn't live without a grinder. Can't you put one in the garage or the garden shed? 

Seriously though, if you can't have or use a grinder, that sure puts a stop to a lot of HSS.

I'd be doing exactly what you are doing if I had that limitation. That said, I do have a few tools that have indexible hss inserts. You might want to look into something like that.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

Janger said:


> I like the R8 integrated type - I get better results. You don't have to spend that much either. Look on Aliexpress. Those accusize ones are made in china anyway so you might as well skip the middleman. look at MZG on aliexpress. I got all these from Ali. Except for the little hoggers from accusize.



Looks like a great set to me John! Did you get them from MZG on Ali?


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## LenVW (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks for your input guys !!
I will be in the GTA most of the day tomorrow and I will do some price comparison.


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## Janger (Jan 3, 2022)

some from mzg and some from nicecutt


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## PeterT (Jan 3, 2022)

My go-to facing/sizing/finishing tool is a 4x insert 2" wide face mill. This one is from Taiwan. I probably would have selected R8 integrated like John's but this manufacturer makes standard heads to fit any kind of arbor. I can change the inserts in a couple minutes. If I have a wide plate I just step over 3/4 width or whatever. I think the inserts are APKT 16xx which are very common. These are brand name (but probably not) Ebay sourced. 

I've read about people who have had problematic offshore face mills. The pocket datum surfaces were not accurate so the inserts had misaligned geometry. Years ago I had a KBC/China 1" diameter offshore mill with triangular inserts, but for whatever reason it just did not perform, despite having correct & variety of inserts. You could feel the labored feed rate even at moderate DOC, made a lot of heat, crappy looking chips. A good quality regular EM outperformed it hands down. Not sure what to say there, it can be a crap shoot sometimes.

The other consideration is HSS is not as common as it once was. Industry moved on multi-decades ago. What used to be inexpensive, high quality tool steel has been replaced by some cheesy mystery materials IMO. And the good stuff costs real money. Its valuable to have around the shop because you can make special forms or shapes or cutting geometry. But for plain turning & milling, inserts are so convenient & abundantly available. Like any tooling they have downsides too, but for me the pros outweigh the cons.


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## Susquatch (Jan 3, 2022)

PeterT said:


> My go-to facing/sizing/finishing tool is a 4x insert 2" wide face mill. This one is from Taiwan. I probably would have selected R8 integrated like John's but this manufacturer makes standard heads to fit any kind of arbor. I can change the inserts in a couple minutes. If I have a wide plate I just step over 3/4 width or whatever. I think the inserts are APKT 16xx which are very common. These are brand name (but probably not) Ebay sourced.
> 
> I've read about people who have had problematic offshore face mills. The pocket datum surfaces were not accurate so the inserts had misaligned geometry. Years ago I had a KBC/China 1" diameter offshore mill with triangular inserts, but for whatever reason it just did not perform, despite having correct & variety of inserts. You could feel the labored feed rate even at moderate DOC, made a lot of heat, crappy looking chips. A good quality regular EM outperformed it hands down. Not sure what to say there, it can be a crap shoot sometimes.
> 
> The other consideration is HSS is not as common as it once was. Industry moved on multi-decades ago. What used to be inexpensive, high quality tool steel has been replaced by some cheesy mystery materials IMO. And the good stuff costs real money. Its valuable to have around the shop because you can make special forms or shapes or cutting geometry. But for plain turning & milling, inserts are so convenient & abundantly available. Like any tooling they have downsides too, but for me the pros outweigh the cons.



I think you are pretty much right about the industry moving on. I think that was most driven by the convenience but also by the higher faster cutting rates that the carbide offered. 

Still, hss can be used slower, has far superior interrupted cut resilience, and can be customized. I'm not ready to give up on it yet. I absolutely love hss for smooth quiet cuts on the lathe and the mill. 

That sure as heck doesn't mean I don't like carbide inserts. Prolly 80-90% of my lathe work is done with inserts. And I'd like to get there on my mill too. 

With the mill, I am finding that there are sooooo many inexpensive hss/carbide endmills out there that it's gunna be a struggle to replace them with indexable carbide. 

I love your face cutter. That's exactly what I'm looking for.


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