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Welding Cables Discussion
- Thread starter Susquatch
- Start date
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
You can get brand new cable from Amazon (40 amps):
Or for $5 more you can get this one from Vevor (free shipping, 30 amps, same length)
www.vevor.ca
Or for $5 more you can get this one from Vevor (free shipping, 30 amps, same length)
VEVOR Extension Cord, 50ft 250 Volt, 10 Gauge Heavy Duty Outdoor Welder Extension Cord with 10 Awg 3 Prong, 30 Amp Power Extension for Welding Machines, NEMA 6-50 Plug, ETL Approved, Black | VEVOR CA
VEVOR Welding Extension Cord 50ft with 30A pure copper wires, weather-proof, STW rated, and perfect for long-distance operation in any conditions.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
TIG 200 amp welder max current is under 30 amps - and it has 60% duty cycle. One could consider extensive length of connection - say multiple extensions connected together - heat at connections & voltage drop due to distance.
Similar for TIG 250 and similar welders.
I.e. for most pp 8 awg is fine. I.e. 30 amp cable.
Century Wire and Cable Pro-Grip 50' Welding Extension Cord
The heavy duty grounded Pro Grip Welding Extension Cords right angle is designed for use with portable welding machines of 400 Amps or less.
I thought $120 is pretty reasonable compared to KMS
Former Member
Guest
I keep it simple and safe, read the spec of the machine, do the math and finally call the manufacturer.Century Wire and Cable Pro-Grip 50' Welding Extension Cord
The heavy duty grounded Pro Grip Welding Extension Cords right angle is designed for use with portable welding machines of 400 Amps or less.www.kmstools.com
I thought $120 is pretty reasonable compared to KMS
Its nice making statements that all machines do this but they don't which is important as thats how how accidents happen.
thats ok for 120$ for sure, I have a few of them, they are ok in the garage (and that's where mine stay) where you dont have to lug them around, but they are seriously over kill unless you are powering 350-400a machine, although nothing wrong with overkill
coming from experience 10awg is the more common size for a welding extension cord for a 200-250a machine going hundreds of feet, even the 300a+ shop machines are usually fed with 10awg (although usually only 20 or so feet), yes i am referring to single phase
I dont think most of you are aware that unless electrical codes have changed the required conductor size to feed a welding machine is not the same as it is for other appliances due to the duty cycle, if there are any electricians in the group with access to the cec for this year they can confirm that this is still the case in 2022/2023
Here is the excerpt ;
42-006 Supply conductors
(1) The supply conductors for an individual transformer arc welder shall have an ampacity of not less than the
value obtained by multiplying the rated primary current of that welder in amperes by a factor of
(a) 1.00, 0.95, 0.89, 0.84, 0.78, 0.71, 0.63, 0.55, or 0.45 for welders having a duty cycle of 100, 90, 80,
70, 60, 50, 40, 30, and 20% or less respectively; or
(b) 0.75 for a welder having a time rating of 1 h.
(2) The supply conductors for a group of transformer arc welders shall have an ampacity not less than the sum
of the currents determined for each welder in the group in accordance with Subrule (1) multiplied by a
demand factor of
(a) 100% of the two largest calculated currents of the welders in the group; plus
(b) 85% of the third largest calculated current of the welders in the group; plus
(c) 70% of the fourth largest calculated current of the welders in the group; plus
(d) 60% of the calculated currents of all remaining welders in the group.
(3) Lower values than those given in Subrule (2) shall be permitted in cases where the work is such that a high
operating duty cycle for individual welders is impossible.
So for example @Degen 's Primeweld 225 at max output on stick (highest current draw) draws 38.1a, but given then 40% duty cycle you multiply 38.1 by .63, so by that math you only need a conductor capable of carrying 24a.....a 10awg
coming from experience 10awg is the more common size for a welding extension cord for a 200-250a machine going hundreds of feet, even the 300a+ shop machines are usually fed with 10awg (although usually only 20 or so feet), yes i am referring to single phase
I dont think most of you are aware that unless electrical codes have changed the required conductor size to feed a welding machine is not the same as it is for other appliances due to the duty cycle, if there are any electricians in the group with access to the cec for this year they can confirm that this is still the case in 2022/2023
Here is the excerpt ;
42-006 Supply conductors
(1) The supply conductors for an individual transformer arc welder shall have an ampacity of not less than the
value obtained by multiplying the rated primary current of that welder in amperes by a factor of
(a) 1.00, 0.95, 0.89, 0.84, 0.78, 0.71, 0.63, 0.55, or 0.45 for welders having a duty cycle of 100, 90, 80,
70, 60, 50, 40, 30, and 20% or less respectively; or
(b) 0.75 for a welder having a time rating of 1 h.
(2) The supply conductors for a group of transformer arc welders shall have an ampacity not less than the sum
of the currents determined for each welder in the group in accordance with Subrule (1) multiplied by a
demand factor of
(a) 100% of the two largest calculated currents of the welders in the group; plus
(b) 85% of the third largest calculated current of the welders in the group; plus
(c) 70% of the fourth largest calculated current of the welders in the group; plus
(d) 60% of the calculated currents of all remaining welders in the group.
(3) Lower values than those given in Subrule (2) shall be permitted in cases where the work is such that a high
operating duty cycle for individual welders is impossible.
So for example @Degen 's Primeweld 225 at max output on stick (highest current draw) draws 38.1a, but given then 40% duty cycle you multiply 38.1 by .63, so by that math you only need a conductor capable of carrying 24a.....a 10awg
Former Member
Guest
There are few items in the shop that I'll generally oversize (even if it costs) electrical as it is the easiest to avoid problems with long term.
What isn't accounted for is in-rush or in welding "sticking" which can easily be up to 2 times the max current draw. Any flaws in the supply system show up here.
As to cables....read this 10awg No!
welditu.com
The option that isn't mentioned is the difference in temperature rating for the insulation. 60C which is most common. For 8awg this limits you to 40amps and 90C which ups it to 50amps of an 8awg wire. The pigtail on the welder is is rated 105C and 8awg, the extension is 60C rated 40amps.
I have seen a few 8awg cables rated 50amps but this are 90C ratings and you really don't want to spend the money they are asking.
What isn't accounted for is in-rush or in welding "sticking" which can easily be up to 2 times the max current draw. Any flaws in the supply system show up here.
As to cables....read this 10awg No!
What Size Wire for Welder Extension Cord? 120V/240V | WelditU
Need to know what size wire for welder extension cord safety and performance? Simple chart shows what gauge wire will carry the load for your welder.
welditu.com
The option that isn't mentioned is the difference in temperature rating for the insulation. 60C which is most common. For 8awg this limits you to 40amps and 90C which ups it to 50amps of an 8awg wire. The pigtail on the welder is is rated 105C and 8awg, the extension is 60C rated 40amps.
I have seen a few 8awg cables rated 50amps but this are 90C ratings and you really don't want to spend the money they are asking.
Chicken lights
Forum Pony Express Driver
Is “welding cable” made to a different spec than similar gauge automotive wiring or house wiring? There seems to be a bunch more strands of copper in welding cable?
Yes. The main difference is flexibility. House wiring isn't very flexible. Automotive is, but not nearly to the extent that a cable is.
Chicken lights
Forum Pony Express Driver
Do the extra strands conduct more amperage? Or is it just for flexibility?
I guess I should add abrasion protection, usable temperature range, fire retardant, insulation, etc etc.
@Degen Your realize you are arguing with Canadian electrical code right ? Im quite sure the electrical engineers that wrote the code did the testing to confirm what was acceptable, not to mention that is not anything new, that has been the code for at least 18 years
@Chicken lights welding extension cords are just regular cords, welding cable does have a higher strand count
@Chicken lights welding extension cords are just regular cords, welding cable does have a higher strand count
The strands do change conductivity but not significantly at regular frequencies. It's mainly ability to drag it around, coil it, etc.
Chicken lights
Forum Pony Express Driver
Gotcha. I made a set of booster cables years ago out of 4 gauge welding cable, 20 feet long I think. They are the cats meow
Ya, the cheap booster cables are low strand or even solid wire. Nothing beats really good cable.
But my main bitch is crappy clamps. It's not easy to find good ones.
I know a few guys that have made them with the cheap spring type ground clamp...adds up pretty quickly though, ends up cheaper to buy the nice 100$ set of pre-made cables unfortunately.....
life hack....go to the wrecker, places like pick n pull put the Jerry cans/booster cables/jacks right up front, other yards you'll have to check trunks.....but you would be surprised what you can get for 5$...I've bought more than one Jerry can/set of booster cables from the wrecker
Former Member
Guest
Yes Canadian Code....annoyed emoji.....spent 10 years in the elevator industry...,,electrical code, building code, elevator code all rest, part of what was second nature just to do the job.
Just a bit of background, currently doing RF engineering and am one the distributer of wire and cable and can get whatever information I need directly from suppliers and manufacturers.
Then you should know how to read a code book, and this is the minimum requirement, you are welcome to go above and beyond.
But dont try argue that the P.Eng's who write the standards for the wire, the welding machines and the electrical code dont know what they are talking about, they are many, with the education and resources to test the theories. But hey, if you are a P.Eng in the field electrical engineering by all means get in contact with the CSA and make them aware of their egregious error, maybe you can work with them to have the code updated.
Also, the yanks seem to agree...or is it that we agree with the yanks...yea we are probably just copying them
(A) Individual Welders
The ampacity of the supply conductors shall be not less than the I1eff value on the rating plate. Alternatively, if the I1eff is not given, the ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than the current value determined by multiplying the rated primary current in amperes given on the welder rating plate by the factor shown in Table 630.11(A) based on the duty cycle of the welder.
Table 630.11(A) Duty Cycle Multiplication Factors for Arc Welders
��
| Nonmotor Generator | Motor Generator | |
|---|---|---|
| Duty Cycle | Multiplier for Arc Welders | |
| 100 | 1.00 | 1.00 |
| 90 | 0.95 | 0.96 |
| 80 | 0.89 | 0.91 |
| 70 | 0.84 | 0.86 |
| 60 | 0.78 | 0.81 |
| 50 | 0.71 | 0.75 |
| 40 | 0.63 | 0.69 |
| 30 | 0.55 | 0.62 |
| 20 or less | 0.45 | 0.55 |
i see the table doesn't load properly, here is a link
Electric Welders | UpCodes
Explore a searchable database of US construction and building code. Code regulations are consolidated by state and city for easier navigation.
up.codes