Tool Tooling up a milling machine

[trevj]

I would say that the earlier advice, to avoid trying to tool up for EVERYTHING, is worth a look again. Tailor your purchases to what is on the table at the time, eventually, you will have what you need, to DO what you wanted! We mostly only have metalworking in common. What we don't have in common, is the intended end results! Some do Cars, others, Guns, others Clocks or Steam engines. The stuff that fits one guys needs, may not fit yours so well.

FWIW, I am a big huge fan, of using solid carbide end mills on Aluminum. Reason why? They last almost forever, and the leading cause of death of them, is running them into stuff while they are not spinning at speed!

I am also a HUGE fan of end mills with a radius on the corner, rather than a sharp tip. They simply last and last, until the user duffs them! The sharp point at the corner of each cutting edge, is THE most vulnerable part of the cutting surface of an end mill. Having even a small radius there, takes away almost all the risk of chipping the corner off and making your end mill into a donor for an ugly job! When you do not NEED a sharp 90 degree corner at the bottom of say, a key slot, the round corner will make the end mill that much more durable.

Works on HSS too, and HSS is a lot easier to hand stone the radius on to! I really like the Eze-Lap diamond files for this sort of work, as well as for final stoning of a HSS bit for the lathe!

 

[phaxtris]

@phaxtris

I've used Milwaukees newer permanent magnet battery powered drills works pretty good but the button placement is less then ideal. if you working in a beam or against anything it won't turn on. Which makes it useless for routine ironworking tasks lol

That's funny I did the same thing I bought a 4flute 3/4 hss from kms tools and used it on steel once dulled the tips first use now I got aluminum side mill only end mill.

Ye I hate company only consumables as they tend to change it up every couple years and force you to buy new and improved version of same shit.
I wish they would standardize battery packs for tools that would be hell of a day

i use that Milwaukee i have in the ironworking trade, i can agree, there may have been a hand full of times the switch on the front was a problem, but overall its probably one of the best thought out mag drills i have ever used, the carrying handle being perpendicular to the drill makes carrying it comfortable, even up and down ladders, the quick switch of the down feed from side to side is great, the motor being on ways allowing the use of a chuck had come in handy many times, the permanent magnet however is both the best and worst thing about it, being able to put it half on is awesome for one man out of position positioning it, not worrying about the power going out and the drill coming loose is awesome......but if you have to drill holes all day, turning that crank for the magnet gets old real fast

Edit: i do not have the battery powered version, mine still has a corded motor

yea, i dont know that hougen will ever change it, as they have produced that drill for a good 20 years or more....but you are at there mercy, they can stop production, change production, or jack up the price and there is nothing you can do about it, no thanks


ha yep, myne is the same, aluminum side mill only, i have a selection of hss em's that i bought when i first bought the machine, cheap ones, i do use them on aluminum normally when i don't have a carbide of that size open, otherwise its carbide all the time.....i have lots of spares.....sometimes when i need some retail therapy ill go on ali and order 50$ worth or random sizes that i dont have, or are running low on...and then its like Christmas when it finally arrives....... "ohh, what is this "

 

[justin1]

I would say that the earlier advice, to avoid trying to tool up for EVERYTHING, is worth a look again. Tailor your purchases to what is on the table at the time, eventually, you will have what you need, to DO what you wanted! We mostly only have metalworking in common. What we don't have in common, is the intended end results! Some do Cars, others, Guns, others Clocks or Steam engines. The stuff that fits one guys needs, may not fit yours so well.

FWIW, I am a big huge fan, of using solid carbide end mills on Aluminum. Reason why? They last almost forever, and the leading cause of death of them, is running them into stuff while they are not spinning at speed!

I am also a HUGE fan of end mills with a radius on the corner, rather than a sharp tip. They simply last and last, until the user duffs them! The sharp point at the corner of each cutting edge, is THE most vulnerable part of the cutting surface of an end mill. Having even a small radius there, takes away almost all the risk of chipping the corner off and making your end mill into a donor for an ugly job! When you do not NEED a sharp 90 degree corner at the bottom of say, a key slot, the round corner will make the end mill that much more durable.

Works on HSS too, and HSS is a lot easier to hand stone the radius on to! I really like the Eze-Lap diamond files for this sort of work, as well as for final stoning of a HSS bit for the lathe!

Ye I'm trying to avoid over buying but I would like to have good enough base of stuff that I can use it to expand and if I can get a good base of tooling for 2k to 3k that doesn't seem unreasonable to me it's pretty affordable compared to other hobbies in a way as people will take out a small mortgage for power sports just to right off the machine on the weekend cuz they had 1 too many beers and thought the corner wasn't as sharp lol gonna try and revise the order list again as when I pull the trigger I want to be atleast 95% happy with what I bought lol I wish I could tool up for everything and more but there is only 16 useable hours in a day

I like using hss on the lathe I can really abuse it and it's pretty fast turn around to resharpen on a green stone or blue stone then quickly hit on oil stone and bam back to abusing it.

I may add a round nose bit to the order kinda curious about your theory on them but never really see anyone using them out side of the cnc people unless they want radius inside corners

 

[justin1]

i use that Milwaukee i have in the ironworking trade, i can agree, there may have been a hand full of times the switch on the front was a problem, but overall its probably one of the best thought out mag drills i have ever used, the carrying handle being perpendicular to the drill makes carrying it comfortable, even up and down ladders, the quick switch of the down feed from side to side is great, the motor being on ways allowing the use of a chuck had come in handy many times, the permanent magnet however is both the best and worst thing about it, being able to put it half on is awesome for one man out of position positioning it, not worrying about the power going out and the drill coming loose is awesome......but if you have to drill holes all day, turning that crank for the magnet gets old real fast

Edit: i do not have the battery powered version, mine still has a corded motor

Ye when I first used the cordless one I thought it was gonna be useless and have to swap batteries out constantly but you can drill probly 30 3/4 holes into a 1" beam with a good angular cutter in it,but would be nice if they moved the switch and added a pivot to the base for the holes that happen to land in a bad spot for a fixed base. But usually can work around that with a plate and few bessy clamps. they aren't very heavy which is a god sent. they also take good amount of force to pop them off and they don't just fall off they kinda got a springy ness to them vs the powered magnetics. I don't think we ever even attached the coolant bottle it's almost a useless feature for field work but I can see being used for fab shops and mod yards. we just used water bottles with some cold cut diluted in it

Oops for got to include the model link for reference https://edmfast.com/milwaukee-2787-...Esbgmwk_Ft39Nyvgo9W9t31dGls7mG8caAs3kEALw_wcB

 

[phaxtris]

I typically only use water in an old pop bottle with a hole poked in the top for drilling in the field (i am probabaly 99% field), easy to get, doesn't stain anythinf, works well enough, you can drink it on a hot day

I've heard they are ok (the battery drills), never tried one though

Anyways

Here is what I would buy for a good base

4f endmills 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
2f endmills 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

Multiples of small/cheap sizes,all carbide

Shell mill + Arbor, 38 or 50mm

Decent drill index up to 1/2" or 13mm

Edge finder

Parallels, 2 pairs 123 blocks, angle block set, collet block set would be nice, 4 or 6" vise, hold down set, indicator/mag base (I think you said you have one), collets, drill chuck, calipers

That bit of kit will do most things, add specialty items as needed

 

[trevj]

I typically only use water in an old pop bottle with a hole poked in the top for drilling in the field (i am probabaly 99% field), easy to get, doesn't stain anythinf, works well enough, you can drink it on a hot day

I've heard they are ok (the battery drills), never tried one though

Anyways

Here is what I would buy for a good base

4f endmills 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
2f endmills 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

Multiples of small/cheap sizes,all carbide

Shell mill + Arbor, 38 or 50mm

Decent drill index up to 1/2" or 13mm

Edge finder

Parallels, 2 pairs 123 blocks, angle block set, collet block set would be nice, 4 or 6" vise, hold down set, indicator/mag base (I think you said you have one), collets, drill chuck, calipers

That bit of kit will do most things, add specialty items as needed

I would look to Inch sizes as well. Similar progression up to half inch. Reason? Because there is still a LOT of inch sized gear out there! Yeah, you can make a 1/4" keyway with metric cutters,, but...why?

When Canada tried to eradicate the Imperial measurements, they neglected to change that the whole of the Prairies is mostly divided in to 1 by 2 mile rectangles, and that houses were built with 2x4's or 2x6's (which, funny enough, are not anywhere near that size!). Gotta be flexible enough to not vapour lock over gear designed in the 'other' system!

 

[justin1]

Still working on revised order list but was curious on boring bars I found some mesa style boring bars that come in steel then hss and carbide I would be buying for use with milling machine with citrean style boring head.

Would like to use to make stuff like bucket ears or just odd sizes holes in plate lol thinking of sizing for inch ish of stick out in the horizontal use and maybe buy 3 different lengths for vertical use. As I think if I stick out much horizontally with a 2 inch head I'm not going to gain anything and should buy larger head for holes bigger then 4"

The bars in question Ali express bars hotlink picture at bottom of post for those not interested in clicking random links and Im interested in the steel bar or maybe the hss for a bit more rigidity which maybe over kill for a 30$ boring head???

Not sure on difference between the "STFCR" vs "STUCR" if ones for finishing and ones for roughing?

I image the "STWCR" is for use in the vertical orientation.

My boring head is 1/2 and AliExpress seems to predominantly sell metric stuff not having much luck search for standard stuff I image that using 12mm bars in 1/2 head would be fine with flats or would it cause issues and I should just buy cheap metric head.

The other option is I buy some 1/2 drill rod then just braze silvalloy some m48 hss to the end of it or even some scrap carbide to it then maybe just buy a slug of 1/2 hss round stock and use that for horizontal use but I think this option works out to be similar price to these cheap bars

 

[Mcgyver]

What would you consider a “starter set” for end mill holders?

I can imagine that having an end-mill pull out is not the nicest experience.

They don't generally pull out catastrophically. The helix creates a downward force on the mill and after a cut your realize the bloody part is 50 thou under. Where I've had them pull out is either with mid sized carbide end mills at high speed or big cuts with HSS which usually means a larger dia EM. So what I've collected is 1/2-1". With a long list of reasons why 40 taper is better than R8, the R8 collet system is convenient so as result, I've not seen the need for EM holders < 1/2" imo Its a bit different for 40 taper, I'd want lots of holders over the range just for mounting convenience.

 

[thestelster]

Though, most carbide endmills do not have a Weldon notch, so the standard endmill holders won't work, and you have to use collets or shrink fit system.

The worst pullout I had was using a 1" HSS endmill with 3/4" shank, machining aluminium, using collets, deep cuts, high feed. The endmill pulled out almost 1/4" before I noticed. Stupid me! Didn't think. The endmill had a weldon shank, so switched yo my end mill holder, and all was good after that.

So when I plan on doing some heavy roughing, with solid endmills or tools greater than 1", I switch over to endmill holders (as long as they have the Weldon notch), instead of ER collets.

I have a 1" carbide insert endmill, and I've never had pull out with that, though I can't feed it as fast as recommended.

 

[Mcgyver]

I have a 1" carbide insert endmill, and I've never had pull out with that, though I can't feed it as fast as recommended.

Is there much of a helix with it? That is what causes the pull out.

 

[thestelster]

Not sure on difference between the "STFCR" vs "STUCR" if ones for finishing and ones for roughing?

The difference is the lead angle. You can just barely see it in the photo. F-has a lead angle of -1degree, while U-has a lead angle of -3degrees. Not a huge difference, but the F is probably better for bottoming.

 

[Susquatch]

My first and only experience with endmill pullout happened on my big knee mill almost the first time I used it. The end mill was 1/2 inch carbide 4 Flute being held in a 1/2 inch R8 collet. I was making 4 hold down clamps for my vise.

Having zero experience with a big mill, I was shocked to discover I had blown my target dimension by a mile. At first I thought the part was moving in the vise. Then I thought the quill was drifting.

Not knowing what happened, and having zero experience with a much bigger mill, and not even knowing what might all be broken in this new-to-me well used mill, I abandoned the Bridgeport and finished making the parts on my mill/drill using an MT3 holder. That worked the way I expected.

I confess I had a heavy heart and was very disappointed in my Bridgeport. All that cash on a big machine and my old piece of junk mill/drill worked better..... Crap......

But I was determined to repair that mill one way or the other. So I installed the vise properly and started investigating. I indexed everything so I could figure out what was moving and very quickly discovered the endmill itself was drifting in the holder. Wow...... Now what?

Of course, it had to be my fault. I must have been under tightening the R8 drawbar. Hmmmm, ya maybe, but I'm a big guy with very strong arms. If anything, I over tightened it. That led to a lot of research on how much to tighten an R8 drawbar. Ya, I prolly over tightened it - so that wasn't it. But I made a smaller wrench to address that problem anyway. Maybe someday I'll get a torque limiting wrench but for now, smaller is working just fine.

To make a long story short (because the rest of the story is even boring for me), the problem turned out to be the R8 collet. A partial set had come with the mill. The 1/2" one was internally damaged by spinning tools in it. As a result, the inside bore of the collet was coned.

And so I came to know about the difference between R8/MT3 3 wing collets vs ER collets and also the value of endmills with flats to be used in solid holders like the Weldon design.

All a very good lesson for me.

Haven't had a problem since, but it's always on my mind.

Also front of mind is the need to avoid spinning up front instead of after its encountered. This is most important of all with R8 tools.

I've read from some on here that the R8 indexing pin is not required. It breaks too easy, it's too hard to replace, and besides it is not needed...... I am NOT in that camp.

I've even gone as far as to modify my spindle to make replacement easy and I have a small pill bottle with extra R8 pins in it. Of course, that means I have not broken one, but it's great insurance. Having a good supply and an easy repair process is a great way to make sure you will never have to replace one. It's kinda like buying a big snow blower to stop snow storms.

Why the fuss and strong opinions over an R8 pin? It's really simple. Spinning an endmill and ruining a holder is cheap and easy to fix. Throw it away and buy a new one. But spinning an R8 collet/holder/arbour in the spindle is a complete and total disaster! That spindle taper is the heart and soul of the mill. I NEVER want to risk damaging it. NEVER!

My two cents for whatever it's worth.

 

[thestelster]

Is there much of a helix with it? That is what causes the pull out.

According to the specs, it's 17 degrees.

I really want to get a Rego-Fix secuRgrip collet. The collet is specifically designed to hold weldonshank tooling to prevent pull out. There's a small insert that fits into the Weldon notch on the endmill, and has external threads. The collet is threaded to accept that insert. You screw the endmill with the attached insert into the collet and then tighten the collet nut. But at $450.00 for the 1" collet and insert, ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[little ol' e]

If guys are considering the Rego-Fix secuRgrip collets,

I wouldn't throw your money away with that system unless you see the value behind them. They are not as good as they seem to be...
ER collets work great for most endmills up to 5/8 in a hobby environment, as long as you purchase quality collets and holders.

The only time you would need to use a holder such as the collet would be for roughing with premium solid carbide Variable fluted mills or carbide roughing endmills (exo-carb or V7 plus style endmills ) at higher speeds and feeds using compressed air vs coolants.

If guys want to step up into more expensive Variable fluted endmills ( V7 plus ) and roughing endmills in time, then I would stick to side lock with the Weldon shank. These style endmills will pull out of ER collets and destroy them when endmills break if not careful. You'll see ring around the ID of the collet which, can only be tossed in the garbage afterwards.
You will want these style endmills in a side lock holder...

As for tool life and tolerances .
The TIR on a Weldon shank in a side lock holder won't make a difference on tool life in a hobby shop.
In an ER collet, you'll get extended tool life on a manual mill, however, not enough to go all out with an ER collet system unless your past the point of hobby machining IMO.

 

[phaxtris]

@justin1 all of the boring bars you are looking at are lathe boring bars, that flat may not be in the right place to use in a boring head and might put that carbide at the wrong angle

i think what you want are something like these, they are specifically made for boring heads....if you could find a set with 1/2 shank, i would not buy a 13mm shank tool and put it in a boring head that is bored for 1/2, the slop may be unacceptable for a good finish, if it even fits (1/2 is 12.7mm)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32915900257.html?pdp_npi=2%40dis%21CAD%21C%24%2013.70%21C%24%2013.76%21%21%21%21%21%40210312ef16797539372157445ed3ca%2165926503757%21btf&_t=pvid:e72c00ea-6a28-44da-94ab-cc39643e1d99&afTraceInfo=32915900257__pc__pcBridgePPC__xxxxxx__1679753937&spm=a2g0o.ppclist.product.mainProduct

 

[Stellrammer]

Interesting the difference in 15-20 years of age makes when using Metric vs Imperial.
I cannot casually use Metric, I’m constantly converting to and working in fractional.
With having the US stubbornly refuse to use Metric we still have this bewildering blend, and using older machinery it is difficult to avoid.
I have full drill sets of fractional , number and letter drills, still have not purchased a good metric drill set, I have some carbide metric endmills,but no metric holders or collets.
Something inside my brain accepts the full glory that is metric and it’s ease of use, but lives in an analog world.
I’m with TrevJ, any carbide endmill I have that is crunched, is due to sharp corners , various radiuses on carbide endmills should be standard rather than the exception.

 

[little ol' e]

Though, most carbide endmills do not have a Weldon notch, so the standard endmill holders won't work, and you have to use collets or shrink fit system.

Why not just grind a flat on the shank ?

I have a 1" carbide insert endmill, and I've never had pull out with that, though I can't feed it as fast as recommended. You mean ... it hasn't happened yet haha..

 

[historicalarms]

they neglected to change that the whole of the Prairies is mostly divided in to 1 by 2 mile rectangles, and that houses were built with 2x4's or 2x6's (which, funny enough, are not anywhere near that size!)

Well, I was having such a nice day...and then you had to bring up that reminder of the nightmare that you mention.

The house I am living in started life on an acreage in west Calgary in 1976. The developer I was working for (2003) was going to demolish the house but the wife & I decided to load it onto a truck and move it 200 km . The loading & moving and unloading was a snap. We had the new foundation & basement walls commercially built and that was a measurement to measurement situation that went perfect (That house came down perfect on 5 of the six corners and the one that was out was out 1/4")
Now is where the nightmares started, my first idea was to just hook the old house fittings up to the new but in short order that idea went out the door...we ended up stripping every old tank, sink, sitter, and pipe & connector and from the old frame & replacing with new. Cast & copper went out the door and Pex & braided was installed.
Moving & rebuilding that old house was marginally cheaper ( the move alone eat up $35,000) than building new but dont ever let anyone tell you that it is "less work" because their wrong.

 

[thestelster]

@little ol' e Yes, of course you can grind a flat, though you need the silicon carbide wheel or diamond wheel to grind the notch, but one of the features of the Weldon is to prevent pull down, so the notch in the endmill should closely match the screw contours of the endmill holder. If you grind the notch to wide, then it could still pull down, unless you pull the endmill down to butt up against the shoulder before you tighten up the screw, and if you make the notch too narrow then only the edges of the screw would be touching the edges of the flat that you ground, which maybe its all semantics and doesn't really matter, I honestly don't know. And then if you have a whole bunch of endmills doing that to all of them would take time. I was only suggesting to try to match up the endmills you plan on using with the holder, or vice versa. Also many of the good endmills, like you suggested, can be ordered with or without the Weldon notch.

In regards to my 1" insert endmill pulling out, You're absolutely right. Given the right (or wrong) situation, it could pull out. But I generally only use it for shallow face cuts, light machining on hardened parts when its held in the collet. It also has Weldon notches, so on occasion if I do use it for rough heavy cuts, I'll switch over from collets to endmill holder.

 

[justin1]

@justin1 all of the boring bars you are looking at are lathe boring bars, that flat may not be in the right place to use in a boring head and might put that carbide at the wrong angle

i think what you want are something like these, they are specifically made for boring heads....if you could find a set with 1/2 shank, i would not buy a 13mm shank tool and put it in a boring head that is bored for 1/2, the slop may be unacceptable for a good finish, if it even fits (1/2 is 12.7mm)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32915900257.html?pdp_npi=2%40dis%21CAD%21C%24%2013.70%21C%24%2013.76%21%21%21%21%21%40210312ef16797539372157445ed3ca%2165926503757%21btf&_t=pvid:e72c00ea-6a28-44da-94ab-cc39643e1d99&afTraceInfo=32915900257__pc__pcBridgePPC__xxxxxx__1679753937&spm=a2g0o.ppclist.product.mainProduct

Mk that's like the set I had at first but could only find in standard, I did find a set from accusize on "Amazon link" I'm thinking it would probly be good start and I think if I order a 1/2 round hss chunk from McMaster I can sharpen it to use it for interrupted cuts or carbide unfriendly cutting like weld build up.