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New to me Hartford Mill

John Conroy

member
Premium Member
My wife and I drove to Kitchener and back yesterday so I had very little time to play. However, I did take a half hour before bed to put the top housing on the motor with a new longer drive belt to check adjustment clearance. I couldn't resist running the motor. The damping inherent in the drive belt has almost clobbered the vibration.

My wife came out to the shop and I ran it for her too. That 4k scream made her practically claw her way through the wall of the shop.

If I get some time today, I plan to tune the VFD a wee bit. At a minimum I'll increase the carrier freq till she can tolerate it. But what I really want to do is switch to vectorless control.

Last night I spent a bit of time looking for shielded power cable for the VFD to Motor wiring. That was no piece of cake. I ended up frustrated. I only need about 8 ft of it. Where do you guys find that stuff?

Btw, I found this video explaining the virtues of various alternative wiring designs. I liked it.



I'm not using shielded cable. What I used is 12AWG 600 volt SOOW cable as I did on the other 3 vfd's in my shop. I plan to install an AC line filter on the single phase input cables and ferrites on the motor cables as shown in the Clough42 video even though I have never experienced any EMI or RFI related symptoms.

If you really want shielded cable you can probably order some from Digikey but it will be pricey.


https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B008IGQQFG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B016EISUNU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I plan to install an AC line filter on the single phase input cables and ferrites on the motor cables as shown in the Clough42 video even though I have never experienced any EMI or RFI related symptoms.

Obviously, Clough42 is a very sharp guy. And what he did actually did work for his needs. But I'm not convinced it was the best approach.

The CL filtering is pretty much exactly what I had in mind for the line in. But that's an off the shelf CL filter and may not be optimum. I will probably design and make my own filter based on measurements of the line noise and do a bit more tuning than just being happy with a 50% reduction from an off the shelf filter.

My main concern with what Clough42 did is with the output filtering. For now, I'm not fond of the ferrite approach. In my mind, if the VFD design engineers would have been happy with choking off the output edges, they would have done that in the design of the unit itself. But the whole concept of pulse width modulation depends somewhat on sharp clean edges. And my motor is VFD rated for both windings and bearings so it can handle it just fine. But as Clough42 points out correctly, sharp edges do generate rf. So I think shielding is a much better solution because it blocks the RF while it maintains the sharp edges.

Yes, the cable will be expensive. But I only need about 6 to 8 ft so hopefully I can find someplace where I can buy it by the foot.

I'm quite keen on making sure I don't have too much RF noise in my shop. I don't do video recordings, but my electronics lab is up on the mezzanine over my break room and I don't need RF noise affecting any work I do up there. Ya, it's unlikely that I will ever be doing both simultaneously, but never say never. Besides, I already suspect my Bluetooth hearing aides are being affected too.

Anyway, that's my thinking on the matter for whatever it is worth.
 
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John Conroy

member
Premium Member
I'm betting your approach will be more effective but I'm not capable of making my own filter so I'll have to settle for an off the shelf 2 stage one. I'm not convinced I need to be concerned with output RFI so I may not bother with that. I think my VFD to motor cable will be under 6 feet long.
 
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Dabbler

ersatz engineer
I'm a bit sheepish about mentioning this, but the sources I've researched suggest that motor lead length affects the VFD performance.

If the circuit is sensitive enough on the output stage to have that as a consideration, I kept my output leads to just over a meter, and went without filtering, for now. My solution for shielding was using a separate shielding braid salvaged from a 70s cabinet disk drive, it happened to be about the same length. -- I still have the 11 platter removable cartridge (!!)

At these low frequencies, even a steel open braid that is available by the foot would sufffice, The impedance at these frequencies and their harmonics would be easily be kept very low.
 

Susquatch

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I'm a bit sheepish about mentioning this, but the sources I've researched suggest that motor lead length affects the VFD performance.

If the circuit is sensitive enough on the output stage to have that as a consideration, I kept my output leads to just over a meter, and went without filtering, for now. My solution for shielding was using a separate shielding braid salvaged from a 70s cabinet disk drive, it happened to be about the same length. -- I still have the 11 platter removable cartridge (!!)

At these low frequencies, even a steel open braid that is available by the foot would sufffice, The impedance at these frequencies and their harmonics would be easily be kept very low.


I don't know why you would be sheepish about saying any of that.

My "opinions" of your comment go as follows.

To preserve the sharp edges that are output by a VFD, short is way better than long.

Any shielding is better than no shielding.

Although I have not measured it, the frequencies involved are probably much higher than we think. Any fast square wave carrier will probably show a gigahertz component. But you are right, the main fundamental frequency of the basic carrier is in the audio frequency range so even speaker wire would suffice.

For the time being, I have used plain old Romex 3-wire (plus ground) home wiring on both mills my VFD has been attached to. Other than the scream in my Bluetooth hearing aides, it seems to work just fine.

Now we get to the more complicated discussion. To maintain the sharp duty cycle character if the VFD output to the motor and supress Radio frequency noise, the main VFD manufacturers all highly recommend individually shielded, 3 wire, balanced cable. Not only that, but they also recommend shielded grounding at both ends. The video I posted earlier is a good reference.

However, I also note that most of their recommendations involve dealing with very long cable connections. Very little that I have found deals with short cable. Generally, they simply say keep the cable as short as possible.

My existing romex connection works. However, if I can find good VFD rated cable without spending a fortune (about $10/ft or less) I will use it. If I don't find any, I probably won't bother with anything in between.

Unless I find compelling information to the contrary, I will not use ferrite rings. While the VFD will work with them, and while they will reduce ringing, I believe they are probably a step in the wrong direction because they also dampen the desirable sharp edge duty cycle component of the VFD output.

Anyway, I am of the overall opinion that rf from the output cables isn't nearly as big an issue as the noise on the input wiring that might be fed back into other equipment in the shop and even the house. So my first priority is plain old RL filtering on the input. Anyone using a phase Converter or input transformer probably doesn't even need to worry about it at all because either of these options will totally kill any noise of this kind.
 

John Conroy

member
Premium Member
I found this you-tube video by General Cable. I didn't know this style of cable existed but it doesn't address the RFI issue, only the unequal amount of current induced into the ground on a standard 4 conductor cable like mine.

 

Dabbler

ersatz engineer
Any shielding is better than no shielding.

To be more specific, what I was referring to was emitted RF in the VFD-motor connection... When I used this external shield, the emitted RF was way less noticable in the AM radio spectrum, which is what I used to check it.

The added benefit should be that using an external shield, it might minimize phase induced ground potential in a single strand ground (only). At least I haven't had any 'bearing issues' or any problems.

-- I have yet to introduce an LC filter for the line in (my bad).
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
VERY VERY BIG day today.

I just ran the Hartford for the very first time with the old timing belt, new longer drive belt, new VFD rated 2hp motor, drive pulley pushed back one groove VS spindle pulley, VFD running at 10khz and Sensorless Vector mode across the full 15HZ to 75HZ, in back gear low speed mode and 1Hz to 75Hz on direct drive High Speed (all on the new center grooves of my effectively 3 groove pulley).

As described in an earlier post in this thread, I pushed the drive pulley further onto the motor shaft (toward the motor) until the second smallest groove on the motor pulley aligned with the largest groove on the spindle pulley. The smallest groove on the motor pulley is no longer used and neither is the smallest groove on the spindle pulley. But pushing back the motor pulley results in a motor shaft that is FULLY engaged with the pulley. In fact, it worked out that the end of the motor shaft is flush with the end of the pulley bore. Unfortunately, it also makes only 3 grooves available for pulley based speed adjustment. The smallest motor groove and the smallest Spindle Groove are no longer used. So the ratios are no longer correct and a longer drive belt is required. However, the VFD makes all this a non-issue. In my mind, it's an ideal solution to the issue of the short motor shafts that are found on standard replacement Motors.

The mill is incredibly smooth and quite silent in all speeds pulley positions, and VFD settings with the back gear engaged.

Oddly, it is not nearly so quiet in direct (hi speed) mode even when running at the same speed. To be honest, it sounds like the back gears are kissing each other because there is a distinct brrrrrrr noise there. However, if I lift the spindle clutch, it doesn't matter if the back gear is engaged or not. So it can't really be the back gears kissing.

To be honest, it isn't a horrible noise though. Just very concerning. I made two videos to show the noise in both scenarios. It isn't really as noisy as the videos suggest. My phone just has an incredibly good microphone. Both are actually very quiet. In fact WAY QUIETER than my VariDrive Bridgeport. None-the-less, you can easily hear the distinct "brrrrr" noise in the hi-speed mode.

I tried to upload videos, but apparently I have exceeded my streamable account quota, and the forum won't recognize my mp3 video format. I'll try to add them separately as soon as I figure out how.

Any ideas?
 

YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
I tried to upload videos, but apparently I have exceeded my streamable account quota, and the forum won't recognize my mp3 video format. I'll try to add them separately as soon as I figure out how.

Any ideas?

Try zipping your MP3's and posting the zip files here. You may have to do two zip files and two posts?
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I found this you-tube video by General Cable. I didn't know this style of cable existed but it doesn't address the RFI issue, only the unequal amount of current induced into the ground on a standard 4 conductor cable like mine.


The VFD cable I mentioned earlier includes what I referred to as balanced grounds that your video addressed but also includes shielding for RF. I have not yet looked at the cable that @Dabbler found.

Clearly, there is a lot more to VFD cables than most of us would have guessed. That said, without doing any calculations, and going mostly by my experience moderated by my instincts, I really don't think much of any of this is very important for very short motor wiring lengths like we use.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
@John Conroy

I looked at the cable that @Dabbler found. It is indeed what we are looking for. It includes the balanced ground wires as well as the shielding for RF. I will call them tomorrow to see if they will sell small quantities to Canada.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Try zipping your MP3's and posting the zip files here. You may have to do two zip files and two posts?

Unfortunately, that didn't work for me either. Good idea though.

It was a big day for me, I'm absolutely wiped. I'm gunna can it for today and see if I can figure something else out tomorrow.
 

John Conroy

member
Premium Member
I usually hate this guy's videos but I wonder if the noise he's talking about is the same as the one from your mill.

 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I know what you mean about this guy. He does have some good ideas but I stopped watching his stuff a while back because he gets on my nerves. I really don't know why.

Nonetheless, that is exactly the sound I'm after and furthermore, it's one of the areas I investigated a bit last night before reaching that "I need some sleep" point. I had planned to investigate it further today.

Edit - Actually my bride called me and reminded me that it was past my curfew.......

Without actually trying his suggestion, my first reaction is that this is probably not it despite the noise being the same. My noise happens when the spindle clutch is engaged for direct high speed drive, not when it's dis-engaged. You would think it's not possible to have a brrrr noise like that when the clutch is engaged. In addition, I looked very closely at the clutch and it is not worn badly at all.

All that said, I looked very closely at what he did and it is the engagement position (full down) that he is demonstrating. So I'll be giving that a try first thing today. If it works, I'll be scratching my head big time. Yet I am quite hopeful!

Thanks @John Conroy
 

RobinHood

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Thanks @Susquatch for keeping us updated on your progress.

It sure sounds like metal to metal “rubbing” noise to me in the first video you took. Could indeed be an engagement issue between the castellations of the back gear clutch.
 
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