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Missing Images....
- Thread starter YYCHM
- Start date
trlvn
Ultra Member
See https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/missing-images.11851/post-163255 above. I was trying to view Stuart Samuel's post from earlier today. My Mac receives a .webp format for the images and is unable to display them. @ChazzC could you confirm that your macOS 11 (and later) systems CAN display .webp and that earlier systems cannot? That was what I read on the web.
It appears to me that photos after the update are being converted to webp format and is incompatible with older Mac systems. (Maybe others as well? My impression has been that webp was not nearly as widely supported as .jpg and .png.)
Craig
trlvn
Ultra Member
Bingo
I think i understand.
I was hoping that the forum upgrade would all be good news, but it's not looking that way at all.
We didn't request the update. The Server guys just did it.
One of the nice changes was autosizing of big photos - something many members have wanted.
I was looking forward to a lot of similar improvements.
But we got slugged with a nasty when the links to old photos got broken.
Now it looks like there is also a file format issue.
I certainly agree that jpeg images are more common for most users. But the reality is that most webpages are now using web formats instead. I wonder if that was another "improvement"? Sheesh!
OK, I'll add it to the growing list of upgrade issues. I wish the list of upgrade features was a bit bigger.......
In the meantime, if you guys can figure out the "rules" for what the problem is, it might help. I can't do anything cuz I don't have Apple. Maybe @DavidR8 can help.
I'm a PC guy now so no joy on testing Mac options
One point. We don't all throw out our cameras or cell phones every year. Same with software. I'll likely keep my NIKON D800 forever. It creates NEF and JPG files. It will never create .webp images.
I'm not interested in "Enhancing my User Experience" which is a catch phrase that is actually defined as "Changes so we can shove more advertising in your face!"
I'm not interested in "Enhancing my User Experience" which is a catch phrase that is actually defined as "Changes so we can shove more advertising in your face!"
I have an older MAC from Misha's stuff that I got running and Linda has a MacBook. I wasn't able to use the latest Firefox on it. Wouldn't run. I think Chrome runs. Haven't powered it up for quite some time. I just sent the webp image of Ami to Linda. It opened up in her email so her MacBook Air can interpret .webp images.I'm a PC guy now so no joy on testing Mac options
On my LinuxCNC PC only Chrome opens up the photo. On my LinuxCNC Raspberry Pi only Chrome opens up the photo.
On my WIN-10 PC I downloaded Rev 4.67 and the latest PlugIns installer. Now I can get IrfanView to open this stupid format.
www.irfanview.com
And some more info the photo of Ami I uploaded was 47K bytes in size.
,
The new fancy works on not everything format is bigger.
On my WIN-10 PC I downloaded Rev 4.67 and the latest PlugIns installer. Now I can get IrfanView to open this stupid format.
IrfanView - Official Homepage - One of the Most Popular Viewers Worldwide
IrfanView ... one of the most popular viewers worldwide.
www.irfanview.com
And some more info the photo of Ami I uploaded was 47K bytes in size.
The new fancy works on not everything format is bigger.
Oh and with Irfanview I can also save as JPG with 50% quality and reduce it to 32K.
All this supports the concept that the webp file format should be scrapped completely and everything reverted back to .jpg
Edit: A bit more research brought up this link:
www.zdnet.com
It's google dictating this change with the idea that it will reduce storage and load pictures faster. I wonder if there are tracking or other 'features' in it too. Don't trust google.
All this supports the concept that the webp file format should be scrapped completely and everything reverted back to .jpg
Edit: A bit more research brought up this link:
How to get around Chrome's save-as-WebP image format issue
The Chrome browser now defaults to saving image files in the WebP format. Here's how you can convert images back to JPG or PNG without using an image editor.
www.zdnet.com
It's google dictating this change with the idea that it will reduce storage and load pictures faster. I wonder if there are tracking or other 'features' in it too. Don't trust google.
Last edited:
ChazzC
Ultra Member
@Susquatch
Unless you need me to test something, I'll bow out of the conversation. However, I was not able to view the pics that John posted above on the older MBP; and while I was able to download the webp images by right-clicking, neither Preview or Photos on OS Catalina can read them:
Firefox does display the webp images on the MBP. I'm guessing that Safari (and Preview & Photos) uses what used to be called the "Macintosh Toolbox" to handle routine tasks; although the evolved "toolbox" is available to Developers, not all use it or fully implement it (may be some licensing costs involved).
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@jcdammeyer (OT)
I don't do Chrome (Google know enough about me already), but as noted above Firefox will work (if you can find a legacy version).
I can beat your D800 as I still have (and use for my HSM articles & YT videos) my D5100. I also have a D700 & D7500, but donated my D50 years ago (after replacing the front trim that was cracked after a bump; was very pleased with myself even though it was an easy repair, plus I fixed the cracked trim piece still hav it for some reason . . .). At one time I had an N8008s and an F4 (used both at the first Figure Skating Pro-Am at Hershey Arena – four rolls of film: they drummed into us at the Nikon School to take lots of photos); I no longer have the AF film Nikons, but am never giving up my FTN & 50/f1.4!
Unless you need me to test something, I'll bow out of the conversation. However, I was not able to view the pics that John posted above on the older MBP; and while I was able to download the webp images by right-clicking, neither Preview or Photos on OS Catalina can read them:
Firefox does display the webp images on the MBP. I'm guessing that Safari (and Preview & Photos) uses what used to be called the "Macintosh Toolbox" to handle routine tasks; although the evolved "toolbox" is available to Developers, not all use it or fully implement it (may be some licensing costs involved).
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@jcdammeyer (OT)
I don't do Chrome (Google know enough about me already), but as noted above Firefox will work (if you can find a legacy version).
I can beat your D800 as I still have (and use for my HSM articles & YT videos) my D5100. I also have a D700 & D7500, but donated my D50 years ago (after replacing the front trim that was cracked after a bump; was very pleased with myself even though it was an easy repair, plus I fixed the cracked trim piece still hav it for some reason . . .). At one time I had an N8008s and an F4 (used both at the first Figure Skating Pro-Am at Hershey Arena – four rolls of film: they drummed into us at the Nikon School to take lots of photos); I no longer have the AF film Nikons, but am never giving up my FTN & 50/f1.4!
You don't need to do that ChazzC. I was not wanting people to waste their time diagnosing a known issue. But as @trlvn has stubbornly beat into my feeble brain, this is a totally different issue. Unfortunately, only Apple users can define it. So, we actually need you guys to keep flogging it until we have enough definition of the problem to be able to solve it - if we can.
This is also as good a place as any to define who does what on the forum.
A small group of us are moderator/admins. Basically we herd cats. As Moderators, we remove, modify, move, and maintain member posts and threads. We also sometimes enforce, warn, or even rarely ban members based on content contrary to the forum policy. Moderators also approve membership applications mostly to watch for spammers and bad actors.
As admins, we look after the forum structure, forum settings, enable and disable features, fix settings problems, set defaults, and sometimes solve functional and operational problems related to the forum configuration.
The forum software itself is called Xenforo. Xenforo is a server based program that was written by a company in the US by the same name. Like other commercial programs, we buy a license to use Xenforo but we have little to no ability to change it. About all we can do is configure it, report bugs, request features, and hope the program authors fix or implement them.
There is another 4th level of support that is usually invisible to members. Websites, forums, and other Internet applications like Xenforo all run on servers (usually Unix) that are spread all across the world. These servers are maintained by server staff. These people install and maintain programs running on the server. They do regular server backups and restores, and also do things like configure web applications (like Xenforo) to meet their market and server needs. They usually also install updates to Web apps and to their servers that are available from time to time.
To summarize from the bottom up,
Xenforo is a company that writes forum software and issues updates and bug fixes from time to time.
Xenforo is installed on a webserver that is maintained by the hosting service staff who are located at the server. They physically manage and run the servers just like you manage your PC.
Xenforo's use and operation is configured and maintained by Admins.
Moderators keep the forum operating smoothly according to member needs.
And finally Forum Members use the forum to create content of interest to other members and give our forum the character that defines us for what we are.
Like any software, Xenforo can crash and can have software bugs that occur in various circumstances. What these problems are defines who is responsible and who can fix them.
The loss of old photos occurred when the forum software was updated by the server staff. At this point, the server staff are trying to fix it with some help from Xenforo.
The Apple File Format issue is not yet defined or understood. Until we do that, we don't know who can fix it or even if it can be fixed. I suspect that's its an issue with the xenforo update but I don't know that yet.
I may post a copy of this in the help section of the forum. If anyone has questions, I can refine this information to improve its relevance to members.
trlvn
Ultra Member
I think the issue is clear enough. In the Xenforo update, it appears it has been chosen to convert uploaded pictures to .webp format. I presume the motivation is that WebP is supposed to achieve better compression and therefore our submitted pictures will consume less server storage space.
The downside is that WebP is a relatively recent format. Google developed it and the first stable release was in 2018. Apple didn't include support until late 2020 so those of us using older Mac* systems can't easily view images in this format. Yes, we could install the Chrome browser. As in another thread, though, Google doesn't exactly inspire unconditional trust these days.
Also, I think .webp format is a bit unfriendly to forum users. Not infrequently, I download an image from a posting because it shows something of value to me. _I_ can convert .webp to .jpg (etc) but I'm a software geek and have more than a little history in graphics formats. Jpeg format is ubiquitous at present so I think moving to .webp is premature, at best. In addition, there are some that believe that WebP achieves higher compression by sacrificing some details in the picture. That is beyond my pay grade, though.
The wikipedia article on WebP covers most of this:
WebP - Wikipedia
Craig
(I sure don't want to go back to the days where pictures where stored on third party services which inevitably suffer bit rot.)
*There are about zero people running older versions of iOS and ipadOS so almost all have updated to a compatible OS version. Older Android systems may also lack support but those devices don't tend to last all that long.
Tomc938
Ultra Member
@Susquatch: Thanks for taking the time to explain the structure of the forum software and the various levels of responsibility when things go wrong. When you add the other layers, namely what operating system people are using (and what version) and the browser they run, there are lots of places for things to go wrong.
I'm going to patiently wait for things to be resolved. It sucks that photos may be gone, but life goes on.
Appreciate the moderators here and the work you do. For your sakes especially I hope this gets straightened out soon.
PS: I can also see all the photos in tis thread. MBP 2018, OS 14.6.1, Safari.
I'm going to patiently wait for things to be resolved. It sucks that photos may be gone, but life goes on.
Appreciate the moderators here and the work you do. For your sakes especially I hope this gets straightened out soon.
PS: I can also see all the photos in tis thread. MBP 2018, OS 14.6.1, Safari.
I uploaded a variety of image sizes and formats just now.
They were ALL converted to small WEBP format images.
I agree with you @trlvn , this appears to be a very clear effort by the server guys to conserve server space. This is a primary goal for all server guys. Server space is always a problem for them. FWIW, I don't think we should be paying for a service that meets their needs but doesn't meet ours.
I'll pass this on.
They were ALL converted to small WEBP format images.
I agree with you @trlvn , this appears to be a very clear effort by the server guys to conserve server space. This is a primary goal for all server guys. Server space is always a problem for them. FWIW, I don't think we should be paying for a service that meets their needs but doesn't meet ours.
I'll pass this on.
A note to images, I can see @BaitMaster and @canuck 750 images on/in the "12x36 geared lathe posting, up to/all Te Aug. 27 at11:58 am. Can not see any of @ChazzC, @jcdammeyer, @DavidR8, and many others at this time, not sure how far back, yet. This is on my older i-pad. They all show up on my phone.
As to what, how come, ?????. Ask me the color of my dog, that I can answer, as long as the person is not a quilter.
eotrfish
Ultra Member
Some interesting and possibly relevant reading for the folks who provided the "upgrade"
www.lawinsider.com
Also some food for thought. This principle has served the medical community and most of humanity for centuries!
Update and Upgrade Definition | Law Insider
Sample Contracts and Business Agreements
www.lawinsider.com
Also some food for thought. This principle has served the medical community and most of humanity for centuries!