Electric panel questions.

[Dabbler]

Something like this will definitely help:

Blue Diamond 10 Outlet AC Power Bar w/ 5 Rotating Outlets, Surge & Spike Protection, Black - Surge Protectors & Power Bars - Memory Express Inc.

www.memoryexpress.com

or something like:

Amazon.com: Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S : Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S : Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

or this:

https://www.amazon.com/Furman-SS6B-Power-Conditioner/dp/B0002D017M/ref=sr_1_17?dchild=1&keywords=powerline%2Bfilters&qid=1635371130&qsid=140-5971656-4218666&sr=8-17&sres=B073MCGBP5%2CB015AMEX5U%2CB000OF4R8C%2CB07X4FFWDH%2CB07ZPWHX2S%2CB07L24HHXY%2CB07FDYRQRY%2CB07XZ5M1HG%2CB01NAKD1HK%2CB07MFW2D1P%2CB07PFDSDZD%2CB084JRXGQV%2CB0002D017M%2CB00XWL2VVK%2CB093PQZVK4%2CB07GKBPYB9&th=1

(no affiliation)

 

[Susquatch]

I opted for the 30A version of the second unit @Dabbler recommended.

UxcellAC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B016EISUNU/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_P6GHDB8N925KHVN4QGGF?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

That's double the amperage of my mill, but I reasoned that I might want to add other loads down the road. Besides, most filters like that get bigger (physically) to handle the higher current, but the filtering is frequency based not current based so its just as effective at lower currents.

Last but not least, this one is stocked in Canada.

 

[Perry]

I'd actually gone one step further. I have an APC uninterruptible power supply with line filtering and surge protection on the controller of the machine. Checked for ground loops between the controller and the machine. Even had an IT friend of mine let me use an industrial filter they use in their server rooms.

I'm good now. The best I figured it was something caused by the vacuum on the same branch circuit. I really hope it doesn't come back.



Edit: I have quit using the UPS on the machine and had no further issues, this thread got me thinking I should hook it back up. You never know when you might get one of the those bad switch overs on the grid and you are right in the middle of something. I live close to downtown and have never seen this, but a friend in Tuscany has power blips all the time. sometimes complete power outages.

 

[Susquatch]

I'd actually gone one step further. I have an APC uninterruptible power supply with line filtering and surge protection on the controller of the machine. Checked for ground loops between the controller and the machine. Even had an IT friend of mine let me use an industrial filter they use in their server rooms.

I'm good now. The best I figured it was something caused by the vacuum on the same branch circuit. I really hope it doesn't come back.



Edit: I have quit using the UPS on the machine and had no further issues, this thread got me thinking I should hook it back up. You never know when you might get one of the those bad switch overs on the grid and you are right in the middle of something. I live close to downtown and have never seen this, but a friend in Tuscany has power blips all the time. sometimes complete power outages.

Personally, I think @Dabbler nailed it. Vacuums are mostly brushed Motors. Brush arcing acts similar to the points on an automotive engine and create nasty voltage spikes and lots of noise on the supply line.

My farm is in windmill alley. Power outages, brownouts, and lousy power in general are a fact of life here. I hate them.

 

[Perry]

Just a short update. The gents did a little work while the weather was warm. The electrical side is ready for inspection. (prior the Enmax switch over) Still need gas work.

Do you think the panel is large enough in the garage? This was the answer to the panel I required not being available. I guess better larger then smaller.

So I'm starting to think about the next stage of the project where I wire the garage. Do you guys have any recommendations on where to purchase the supplies? Home Depot? Dedicated electrical supply company?

 

[YYCHM]

What's the box on the left hand side of the door?

Are they going to leave that gauge on the gas line?

 

[Dabbler]

I buy most of my wiring supplies (I do a lot) at Westburne or Eecol. Both are very good, but cost a little more than HD or Lowes if you buy in small quantities.

 

[Perry]

What's the box on the left hand side of the door?

Are they going to leave that gauge on the gas line?

The box on the left side is the meter base. When Enmax switches out the service my meter will be here. My house is so old the meter is actually inside the house.

That gauge was for the gas inspection. Shows it is holding it's pressure. (50psi). When the gas guys come to complete their work it will be removed and the gas will enter the garage at this point. The furnace will be right above that entry point in the corner ceiling area.

 

[Perry]

I buy most of my wiring supplies (I do a lot) at Westburne or Eecol. Both are very good, but cost a little more than HD or Lowes if you buy in small quantities.

I am wrong to assume the quality of the materials would be better from an actual electrical supply company?

 

[Dabbler]

quality of the materials would be better

They generally have the major brands, but also the industrial brands. For instance, using an industrial 20A outlet instead of a 20A big box one will cost you around triple, but they are very well made, and there a relatively few to install. I consider spending the extra as good peace of mind...

They also stock the breakers you will need at slightly inflated prices.

For 220V 40/50A I use big box store stove or dryer outlets, as they are very inexpensive, and I only pump 40 Amps through them any way.

For long lead ins, for 220V 50A I wait for Princess Auto to put the 50A welding extension cords on sale, usually around 40% off, and use them for lead ins to big lathes or phase converter. It turns out cheaper than buying the receptacles and getting 50A flex cord by the foot...

One word of caution: the way our code works, there's nothing stopping you from plugging a puny 12 watt desk lamp into a 220V 50Amp circuit on the 110V legs. Perfectly legal. Not recommended. However it will cost you a *fortune* to exactly match plugs to intended use. I currently have 220V15A, 220V 20A twist lock 220V 40A 220V 50A, 110v 20a AND 110v 15A plugs. this has cost me more than it should.

For instance choose to use one type of 110V circuit, say 110V 20A, and then split the wiring between upper and lower plugs. Use plenty of circuits to avoid overloading.

For 220V, I suggest you go to just 2 plug types and live with that - 20A 4 wire and 50A 4 wire. I say 4 wire so you can separate out the 110V legs if needed. (Yes it will cost you a little more, but is saves a lot of frustration and works out cheaper in the long, long run).

FYI Ive been doing wiring for 45 years, some industrial 3 phase, and did wiring for a master electrician for quite a while, and he'd come and check my work and pull the permit. I don't know everything, but these suggestions have come from wiring 4 shops, and learning from the mistakes I've made.

I hope this helps

 

[Perry]

@Dabbler Very good information. Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

[Susquatch]

I second what@Dabbler recommends.

I only buy regular 15Amp outlets at places like Home Depot - and then only for one offs. Usually I have bulk boxes of them that I get at electrical supply shops.

When you are starting out and building a shop/garage, I think it's not obvious what variety of equipment a machinist/fabricator will all need. If I recall correctly, you are planning to insulate and panel the inside. So it makes a lot of sense to go overboard with the variety of supply systems.

When I was building factories and offices, I intentional designed them for flexibility. The problem is that you don't know what you don't know. Hind-sight is always 20-20. It pays big dividends in the long run to plan for the most you might do someday. It might be more costly up front, but it saves big bucks and lots of headache in the long run.

You lucked out and got a fantastic base with that huge panel box. Go ahead and use it!

And don't forget to run the neutrals for the big 220 lines. This is the biggest mistake I see people do. In fact, it's what the previous owner did wrong in my shop. I hate it. It won't hurt to have the neutral there if you don't need it, but you are ripping walls apart or putting surface conduit in if you ever do need it..... Beyond that, as @Dabbler says, and I said earlier, running the neutral allows you to spilt the lines and run equipment that needs both 220 and/or 110.

 

[Perry]

Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?

Saturday evening planning night. I can't seem to find a straight answer.

A 120V 15 amp circuit can have 12 receptacles or lights. Easy enough.

I can see the point of having a single circuit for a Nema 14-50, but I see no rules from placing two (or more) on the same circuit?

I wouldn't want to do this on the 240V 50 amp line but what about the smaller plugs. 15 amp, 20 amp or 30 amp?


Another comment I seen while reading this evening. How many of you have seen a power tool with a factory 120V 20 plug?

 

[Perry]

The problem is that you don't know what you don't know.

Oh the more I read...the more I realize.....lol

That is why I'm posting here. Learning from others is well worth the time.

 

[Dabbler]

Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?

well... sort of. If the expected load is a permanently connected stove or dryer, then - no. That's because the appliance can be turned on at any time, and takes the entire circuit capability.

Let's use the use case of a 250A Mig welder (mine, a Millermatic 250) at the wire speed I use and the voltage I select, it takes about 20A draw. I'm the only operator in the shop. so I could get away with having 2 or 3 receptacles as long as the expected load is near enough 20A. The chances I'd be using both welders and my phase converter at the same time is zero. Even with all on, my draw will still be less than 50A - by a small margin.

My 220V 50A plug is single, but I have prewired the circuit for 2 more outlets (not connected... yet). My 220V20A circuit has 3 receptacles on it, My milling machines which go into that circuit average 8.5 amp draw at full load, so I could run 2 mills at the same time and still have headroom.

My bandsaw, a 1.5HP 220V draws 10A at full draw, which is more than you'd guess, and it has its own 15A circuit. My regret is that I didn't rewire it to use the 20A recepticles instead of pulling a new circuit.

I hope this helps.

 

[Susquatch]

Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?

Saturday evening planning night. I can't seem to find a straight answer.

A 120V 15 amp circuit can have 12 receptacles or lights. Easy enough.

I can see the point of having a single circuit for a Nema 14-50, but I see no rules from placing two (or more) on the same circuit?

I wouldn't want to do this on the 240V 50 amp line but what about the smaller plugs. 15 amp, 20 amp or 30 amp?


Another comment I seen while reading this evening. How many of you have seen a power tool with a factory 120V 20 plug?

I believe @Dabbler is correct on all counts and his advice is solid too.

I don't know the Alberta code, so I can't say what your code says about it. But I was one of the final editors on Ontario's code many years ago. I can speak to the science and rationale of the code.

I agree with you and wouldn't run more than one 50 amp outlet on a cable. I do agree with @Dabbler that it would do no harm the way you or I might plan to use it. But on the other hand, you (or someone else) MIGHT use it that WAY some day.

Nonetheless, I'll bet your code allows it (or at least doesn't preclude it).

Theoretically, the breaker will protect you, but breakers do fail. You have a HUGE panel. Use it! Wire is not cheap but way cheaper now than later.

The other advantage of separate cables is the ability to add small subpanels instead of a 50 amp outlet someday. So don't forget to RUN THE NEUTRAL TOO.

I wouldn't even hesitate to run multiple 20A 220V outlets on the same circuit. That's done all the time. Think electric heating.

Yes, I've seen 20A - 120 outlets. Wired them too. But they would usually be a one off best bought at a box store. Most box stores carry them. I had a 20Amp factory table saw but its long gone now. I still have a 20 amp factory soldering iron. It's a beauty!

Don't put all your lights and outlets on the same breaker even though you can. It's hell finding your way to the panel box in the dark in a shop environment. Also, consider a battery powered safety light that comes on when the grid power goes out.

Ah the joy of wiring your own shop...... I am sooooo jealous!

 

[trlvn]

Can 240V receptacles be in parallel on one circuit?

Here in Ontario, I had a licensed electrician install two more outlets on a 240 V 15 A circuit (for a total of 3) last month. Also multiple outlets on a 120 V 20 A circuit. I didn't ask him about higher amperage circuits.

FWIW,

Craig

 

[Susquatch]

Here is a

Oh the more I read...the more I realize.....lol

That is why I'm posting here. Learning from others is well worth the time.

Here is a screenshot of the relevant section in the national code. The Alberta code may or may not be the same, but would take precedent.

I'm, a bit surprised by the labelling requirement, but I guess I shouldn't be. Canada is the most label centric place on the planet. Many stories I could tell everyone that would make your eyes water.....

I can't resist just one. When child seats were developed for cars, the NGOs wanted a gazzillion warning labels on them. I sent a sample child seat to Transport Canada that was covered in labels as per all the NGO demands. We added one extra label dead center. It said:

"THIS LABEL CAN ALSO BE USED AS A CHILD SEAT".

The final requirements were reduced well below the demands.......

In my opinion, there is no way that lower current circuits code requirements could ever be worse than a 50A Welding circuit - but e-vehicle charging circuits might be..... I would have been consulted on that if I didn't retire before it happened. But I can only imagine what all the lobby groups wanted for that! I'd read it, but I prefer to stay happy.



Here are the two paragraphs from Appendix B that are referred to above.



I cannot over emphasize that these are from the current national code. Alberta may differ. But it is unlikely.

 

[Brent H]

What if you install a plug, that a welder "could" plug into but also your trailer and maybe your tool grinder or a plasma cutter etc. or your air compressor, the stove if required - maybe back feed an emergency generator.....I guess the "label" would not be required then as my intended purpose is not just for a welder??

My welder has an adaptor that will allow it to plug into 120 V receptacle - that is a shite ton of signage I will need to be posting around the house - LOL

 

[Susquatch]

What if you install a plug, that a welder "could" plug into but also your trailer and maybe your tool grinder or a plasma cutter etc. or your air compressor, the stove if required - maybe back feed an emergency generator.....I guess the "label" would not be required then as my intended purpose is not just for a welder??

My welder has an adaptor that will allow it to plug into 120 V receptacle - that is a shite ton of signage I will need to be posting around the house - LOL

I'm NOT taking any responsibility in any of this. I'm a retired old man now who nobody even remembers. I'm a farmer now.

I would bet BIG money that none of the inspectors even know about the label requirements. Heck, I didn't even know till yesterday.

In my shop there are no labels.

My travel trailer is plugged into an outside 50A stove outlet that includes the neutral so I can have 120v stuff inside. I also ran that outlet to a subpanel out in the yard when my daughter got married.

So ya, @Brent H , if I were you I wouldn't worry about it.

FWIW, I think it's stupid. But codes are often like that. Usually to protect someone from their own stupidity. Maybe as a result of a coroner's report or something like that.

On the other hand, I've seen codes that seemed stupid at first glance but made perfect sense once you understand them - eg removing the ground neutral strap on subpanels.