Other Basic Electronics, Multimeters, & Oscilloscopes

This thread is about basic electrical, electronics, Multimeters, and Oscilloscopes. It is an outcome of interest that various members have expressed about these subjects.

@Janger , @Johnwa , and @kevin.decelles have all recently obtained a starter Oscilloscope so I think the timing is good for a thread like this.

The primary resource will be a book (available on Amazon in paper or kindle) called Electronics for Dummies by Kathleen Shamieh. The book isn't a requirement, but it always helps to have a reference of some kind to facilitate discussion. Other references might get added as the thread progresses.

I'm not picturing this thread as a course, just a good place to ask questions, find answers, and share knowledge and experience about basic electrical knowledge and testing.

As always, a good time and lots of great jokes are expected!
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
The motor I have, that I used in the video, has a small shaft out the back. It's possible it had some sort of feedback module to help control motor speed. To close the loop so to speak. One would have to look at a tread mill that uses this type of controller and see what's on the back of the motor.
Could be a simple magnet and winding to provide a voltage signal back to the controller. Either D1 or D2 could be used to turn an AC signal into DC.
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member

Tecnico

(Dave)
The motor I have, that I used in the video, has a small shaft out the back. It's possible it had some sort of feedback module to help control motor speed. To close the loop so to speak. One would have to look at a tread mill that uses this type of controller and see what's on the back of the motor.
Could be a simple magnet and winding to provide a voltage signal back to the controller. Either D1 or D2 could be used to turn an AC signal into DC.
Most of the treadmill setups I have seen have a sensor at the driven sheave. It uses a magnet and one source I say said the sensor was a reed switch. I do have one TM motor with a toothed wheel at the other end of the motor so it’s something more sophisticated.

D :cool:
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
Other than smoke being bad, I'm pretty clueless about electronics but here goes.
I bought the same DC motor controller as Ian.
Hooked up the power to L1 and L2.
Hooked the motor to M1 and M2.
Wired the 5k pot to P1, P2 and P3.
Other than a click on the relay when I plug it in, nothing.
I know the motors work, tried 2 of them. The will both spin with a 20volt Dewalt battery. Both motors are around 2 hp treadmill motors, one is 90VDC one is 120VDC
When I test across the M1 and M2 I get 27 volts no matter where the pot is set.
One motor has the temp overload wires so I hooked it up to T1 and T2. No difference.
Suggestions or smart ass remarks are both welcome.
I find ridicule to be a strong motivator.
 

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
When you power up the board, is the pot at zero? The MC60 boards won’t start at any intermediate position.

Any voltage across T1/T2?
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
When you power up the board, is the pot at zero? The MC60 boards won’t start at any intermediate position.

Any voltage across T1/T2?
I'll have to check the pot again but there is nothing across T1 and T2. I'm guessing that would be a DC voltage as well, if there was one?
And this isn't a MC60. Can't find any identifying marks on it all.
There is a 1668303/1 on the back that gave me nothing when I looked.
I bought 2 boards. I'll try the other one as well.
 
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Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Also, the pot connections are important. It will work when P1 is reversed with P3, but the zero point will be at the full speed position. P2 must be the wiper. Of course, that all assumes that the 3 connections are conventional.

You can try reversing/swapping the connections around. I don't think you can hurt anything doing that.

Also, you will need to be aware that the motor won't start unless the controller thinks the pot is properly set to zero so you might need to play with that too. It's a lot of dicking around that could be avoided with proper labelling, but I bet you get the drift.
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
Progress? Maybe?
Found one bad connection on the pot. Fixed it and no help.
Found another bad connection on the blue temp wires from motor 1. Reconnected it and promptly launched the flywheel off to parts unknown. Recovered myself, switched the M1and M2 and it kinda worked?
Ran pretty slowly, similar to 20V speed from the Dewalt battery but when I slowed it down more and then resumed speed it ran faster for a minute and then slowed down again. If I reduce and then increase the pot again, it will go even faster before slowing down again and if I do this a few times the motor will hit full speed and then the board shuts down. I had the meter on the motor leads and it was showing around 90V before shutting down.
Should I assume the board is simply not capable of producing the necessary DC voltage to run one of these big treadmill motors? Again, one is 90V and the other is 110V.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Did you try reversing the pot leads? You might be increasing the speed instead of decreasing it.
 

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
I suspect T1/T2 are a tachometer input. My logic is that if I was designing a DC motor controller, using a tach input makes it a closed-loop feedback setup. Good design would be to feed power to the motor, compare to tach signal, and if the tach signal isn’t present then remove power from the motor. Likely the circuitry needs a second or so for the tach signal to stabilize, so the shutoff is delayed a bit.
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
Did you try reversing the pot leads? You might be increasing the speed instead of decreasing it.
Pretty sure it's correct right now. On startup, turning to the right increases the speed and left decreases the speed. But if I turn to the right again then the motor goes much faster at first and then begins to slow down on its own. If I turn the pot to the left, it will slow down even more but then turning it to the right makes it go much, much faster but then it will slow down on it's own again. Repeating this a few times will bring the motor up to what I think is full speed momentarily but then the relay clicks and it's lights out. Is it possible that a 5k pot is just too coarse a control?
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
I suspect T1/T2 are a tachometer input. My logic is that if I was designing a DC motor controller, using a tach input makes it a closed-loop feedback setup. Good design would be to feed power to the motor, compare to tach signal, and if the tach signal isn’t present then remove power from the motor. Likely the circuitry needs a second or so for the tach signal to stabilize, so the shutoff is delayed a bit.
Only one of the motors has the 2 blue overheating control wires. This motor was the first one to actually work once those two wires were connected to the board. If unconnected, no joy.
But through my own carelessness I discovered that having them connected to the board while having the other motor connected to the M1 and M2 terminals is the only way to make the second motor work.
 

Doggggboy

Ultra Member
Other than the diodes and FETs there are only 3 ICs.
LM339 Quad differential Comparator
LM324 Quad Operational Amplifier
and
SG3843 Current Mode PWM controller which has the ability to measure motor current.

This is also a single sided PC board so would be pretty easy to reverse engineer and create a schematic.
Did I mention that smoke was the only electrical component I'm familiar with?
Ok. I think I know what a diode is but WTH is an FET?
 

Tecnico

(Dave)
Watching this discussion with great interest! I broke down and parted with $6.68 today and bought 2 to play with. I'm very pleased to see this discussion take off (eh!).

I suspect T1/T2 are a tachometer input. My logic is that if I was designing a DC motor controller, using a tach input makes it a closed-loop feedback setup. Good design would be to feed power to the motor, compare to tach signal, and if the tach signal isn’t present then remove power from the motor. Likely the circuitry needs a second or so for the tach signal to stabilize, so the shutoff is delayed a bit.

Based on what I've seen in 4 of 5 treadmills I have acquired lately, the tach input could be something as simple as a reed switch. I'll plan to verify this. Does it make sense that the controller is expecting that input?

SG3843 Current Mode PWM controller which has the ability to measure motor current.
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/electronic-components/datasheet/SG3843M--Linfinity/
This is also a single sided PC board so would be pretty easy to reverse engineer and create a schematic.

PWM controller with a resistance input, that makes it even more interesting.

@Doggggboy said: Did I mention that smoke was the only electrical component I'm familiar with?
Ok. I think I know what a diode is but WTH is an FET?

LOL! I'm closer to that description than anything else, you have company!

A FET is a Field Effect Transistor, those with more in depth knowledge can fill in the relevant details.

D :cool:
 
Did I mention that smoke was the only electrical component I'm familiar with?
Ok. I think I know what a diode is but WTH is an FET?
I have started covering all of the vents etc on motors that I am putting into service with duct tape...... it keeps the magic smoke in long enough to see if I did it right. (J/k.... maybe ):rolleyes:
It's nice to see I am not the only illiterate electrician wannabe. :p
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
I saw a cute cartoon on facebook from yet another "suggested for you" that I immediately blocked. But it did describe current verses voltage verses resistance.
In essence is showed 3 guys working on a pipe. Two guys were inside it and one had a belt strapped around the outside squeezing it to a smaller diameter. His T-Shirt said R for resistance. Another guy (T-Shirt marked I) was stuck in the squeezed section of pipe being pushed from behind by the guy wearing the T-Shirt marked V.

So we have a Resistance Ohms slowing down current I in Amps pushed through by Voltage V. It was cute. Probably lost a lot in my translation.

Anyway... A transistor is kind of like that pipe but instead of R restricting current through it we have a second Vb and Ib that control how much current I, the V guy pushes through the transistor and whatever is in series with that transistor. Some of Big V gets dropped across the transistor. Generally 1.2V but can be as low as 0.6V. So if your power supply is 12V then there is 10.8 volts there to push current through that load. Could be motor, relay, lamp.

Now the FET. Stands for Field Effect Transistor. It has 3 pins called Drain, Source and Gate. Think of it as a cattle gate. You know. The one that has little bars over a trench so a car can drive through but the cows feet go through the slots so they won't. In other words it provides a bit of resistance to some things but not to everything. You can just feel it rattle the car a bit as it goes over.

When you look at the specifications of a power FET it might have a resistance of 0.05 Ohm when it's switched ON but looks like open circuit when OFF. Or the gate is closed and nothing gets through and when OPEN and all the traffic except for the cow gets through. To switch it ON it doesn't require that Ib Current that a transistor needs. Instead it needs a Gate Voltage that may well be as high as 10V before it switches ON. But then the gate is wide open.

So why do we care? Well. If the transistor drops 1.2V and the current into that motor is 10A then we have P = I * V = 12W of power that is heating up that transistor. The FET has an ON resistance (called RDs ON) of 0.05 ohm and here power is I^2 x R or 100 * 0.05 = 5W so it doesn't get as warm.

Back to the controller. There are 3 FETs according to the markings on the PC board. And a special PWM FET controller along with a Power Diode.

The diode is likely across the motor windings so what is called back emf or a high spike voltage is shorted out so nothing gets damaged. Like we do across relay coils. The FETs are used with that PWM device to create a 0 to 90V or so voltage to run the motor.

More than that I can't say.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Is it possible that a 5k pot is just too coarse a control?

It is possible but not likely. Pots are not very precise. So most of the time they are used like a voltage divider. The half way point of a 10k pot will yield the same voltage as a complete beginner 5k pot would. But that just most of the time. Sometimes they are used to set a control current. In these cases, it is necessary to get the right resistance range.


I have started covering all of the vents etc on motors that I am putting into service with duct tape......

Did I mention that smoke was the only electrical component I'm familiar with? Ok. I think I know what a diode is but WTH is an FET?

You guys are both hopeless..... But funny!
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
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I saw a cute cartoon on facebook from yet another "suggested for you" that I immediately blocked. But it did describe current verses voltage verses resistance.

That's quite good John. I love simple analogies.

When I taught electrical to first and second year non-electrical engineers, I used a water system analogy. A wire is a pipe - some pipes are bigger (Internal Diameter = gauge) than others.
Voltage is like a water tower (battery) that produces water pressure. The higher the tank, the more pressure there is.

Amperage is the volume of water flowing in a pipe.

Resistance is like a restriction or orifice in the pipe or the length or diameter of the pipe.

You can have pressure without flow if everything is closed up. But you can't have flow without pressure.

Switches are like manual gate valves that are either open or closed.

Relays are like electrically controlled Switches.

Going beyond that to solid state stuff, diodes are like flap valves only allowing flow in one direction.

I always explained a FET before a transistor because...... Well because it is just easier to explain! LOL! FETs are like a valve that opens or closes based on the amount of pressure (voltage) applied through a diaphragm to a flow control valve. Just imagine a big diaphragm with lots of leverage to open or close even with small changes in pressure. I dunno about your cows on a Texas Gate! Whatever floats your boat! LOL!

Remembering that FETS are voltage controlled devices, now imagine a transistor as a similar valve that is controlled by current instead of voltage. The amount of water flowing through a control section opens or closes a variable valve to determine how much water flows through the big pipe. FETs are voltage (pressure) controlled, and transistors are amperage (current) controlled.

Capacitors are like little water tanks along the way that have a membrane inside at the midpoint so that whatever flows into them has to flow out the other side - either to ground or to the adjacent circuit - but they are only so big and therefore only hold so much. Once they are full, they are full. Sometimes you need bigger ones and sometimes they need to be little. It's easy to create delay circuits with a resistor and a capacitor.

Inductors are like long coils of low resistance pipe where the water has momentum - it takes a while to get it going and also takes a while to stop it. Think water hammer. I also compared it to a really long hose wrapped around a barrel. That made it easier to visualize a coil. Opening and closing the valve takes a while to affect what comes out the other end. The longer the hose, the longer the delay. Takes a little talking about starting and stopping a big ball rolling and perhaps a little faith to get past the hose expansion water storage issue but never found a better analogy.

DC is like a river flowing downhill. It only flows one way.

AC is like the bay of Fundy where the direction of flow changes depending on the tide constantly flowing in and out on a schedule determined by the moon and the sun which raise and lower the height of the ocean (voltage) outside the mouth (big resistor) of the Bay (big capacitor). In the Bay example, the frequency is just twice a day, but the household frequency is much faster at 60 times a second. Easy leap for most students to take.

Once a student can visualize and design a simple circuit, one can start to introduce the physics of how that happens with electrons in silicon. But it never ever made sense to me to start with the physics and then pray the students could understand the overall process. It's just easier to start with water towers, pipes, restrictions, valves, etc. Then make circuits everyone understands. Then transition the discussion to Volts Amps Resistance Capacitance Reluctance, Transistor Gain, etc etc. And then finally introduce circuit formulas and the physics. I firmly believe this produces students who understand and learn to enjoy electrical.

Digital logic systems are actually easier to explain. Just start with simple and/or/nand/nor decision circuits (gates) and then expand that to small integrated circuits which are just little rooms filled with tiny little people making decisions based on stupid rules made by all the dummies manning all the gates!
 
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