Good question. Grizzly sells their own Grizzly line of lathes and they also carry the higher priced South Bends.
In any event, I'd prolly buy an older South Bend that was made in the USA. But I doubt I'd buy one made off shore for the same price.
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10-11 inch lathes -- Precision Matthews, Modern Tool
- Thread starter trlvn
- Start date
Good question. Grizzly sells their own Grizzly line of lathes and they also carry the higher priced South Bends.
In any event, I'd prolly buy an older South Bend that was made in the USA. But I doubt I'd buy one made off shore for the same price.
trlvn
Ultra Member
In case any of you are wondering, a recap...
I want an upgraded lathe but I've got hard limits on the size (length) and weight (basement). And I'm a cheapskate--it's in my nature!
The Modern Tool CQ6 (11X26) was in the running but I'm unhappy about the limited number of spindle speeds (6: 150/300/560/720/1200/2400). Also, it lacks power-cross feed. It comes with a 4-way toolpost and I would immediately want to upgrade to a QCTP. Major plus is that it is available in stock and I could pick it up about 1 hour away. Based on the negatives, though, I've pretty much eliminated this machine.
The Precision Matthews PM-1030V appears to be the best fit in a new machine. It has power cross-feed and employs a variable-speed DC motor. Includes an installed QCTP. The major negative is that they don't know when they'll get another shipment. They *think* a shipment should be coming in late May or June. However, with the Covid surge in Asia, I'm concerned that that could slip. Maybe a LOT. To secure a place in line, I have to put down a 20% deposit and it is NON-REFUNDABLE unless they move the ETA out by more than 3 weeks. But they haven't set an ETA yet--they are not committing to May/June at this point. They _say_ they'll "work with the customer in extenuating circumstances" but that's not the way their policies are written. I guess I've worked with lawyers too much!
Basically, if I give them a deposit, I am gambling that Covid isn't going to leave me sitting for months waiting for my new toy. And for sure, a bunch of clean, tight, cheap lathes are going to pop up on the used market as soon as I lock into PM! Realisticly though, finding just the right machine could take a very long time. I've kept an eye open for at least 2 years with no obvious stars jumping out.
I'm going to mull this for another few days but I can't dither too long or PM will pre-sell the remaining machines in this shipment.
Craig
I want an upgraded lathe but I've got hard limits on the size (length) and weight (basement). And I'm a cheapskate--it's in my nature!
The Modern Tool CQ6 (11X26) was in the running but I'm unhappy about the limited number of spindle speeds (6: 150/300/560/720/1200/2400). Also, it lacks power-cross feed. It comes with a 4-way toolpost and I would immediately want to upgrade to a QCTP. Major plus is that it is available in stock and I could pick it up about 1 hour away. Based on the negatives, though, I've pretty much eliminated this machine.
The Precision Matthews PM-1030V appears to be the best fit in a new machine. It has power cross-feed and employs a variable-speed DC motor. Includes an installed QCTP. The major negative is that they don't know when they'll get another shipment. They *think* a shipment should be coming in late May or June. However, with the Covid surge in Asia, I'm concerned that that could slip. Maybe a LOT. To secure a place in line, I have to put down a 20% deposit and it is NON-REFUNDABLE unless they move the ETA out by more than 3 weeks. But they haven't set an ETA yet--they are not committing to May/June at this point. They _say_ they'll "work with the customer in extenuating circumstances" but that's not the way their policies are written. I guess I've worked with lawyers too much!
Basically, if I give them a deposit, I am gambling that Covid isn't going to leave me sitting for months waiting for my new toy. And for sure, a bunch of clean, tight, cheap lathes are going to pop up on the used market as soon as I lock into PM! Realisticly though, finding just the right machine could take a very long time. I've kept an eye open for at least 2 years with no obvious stars jumping out.
I'm going to mull this for another few days but I can't dither too long or PM will pre-sell the remaining machines in this shipment.
Craig
You only live once Craig.
I wouldn't want any lathe with a minimum speed of 150rpm. Mine is 70 and I'm not happy with that.! I think you are making the right call there.
The rest of it is about getting what you want. Just decide what that is and then go for it.
I wouldn't want any lathe with a minimum speed of 150rpm. Mine is 70 and I'm not happy with that.! I think you are making the right call there.
The rest of it is about getting what you want. Just decide what that is and then go for it.
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape with respect to minimum speed from an AC line base spindle motor. Either a VFD or better still an AC Servo will give you the closed loop speed control so as long as there's some way to set a fairly low base speed like 150 RPM then a servo can easily take that down to 1 RPM. I'm running 1:1 with my mill and the 3000 RPM 1800W AC Servo can power tap at 10 RPM if i want.
Second. Powered cross feed. Important for manual lathes but not so much for CNC or even ones controlled with something like my ELS. Now granted I haven't yet put a motor on my South Bend Cross Slide and if I do want to use power feed I use the mechanical coupling and have the Z axis carriage lead screw motor drive it. And my South Bend has a taper attachment so there's no major motivation yet to do much more. So I'm presenting an idea but not using it on my South Bend.
But my Gingery Lathe has stepper motors on both axis. So power cross feed is there. And if I swap the spindle to some kind of servo then the future can see the spindle speed varying depending on the X axis position enabling a constant surface speed with better facing quality.
Here's a very old poor quality video of my ELS running my Gingery sharpening a tool bit. It really just was an exercise. I don't normally do it this way.
ELS Grinding Example
Anyway, converting a lathe or mill to have steppers or servos is so cheap nowadays that it should probably be on everyone's list.
Second. Powered cross feed. Important for manual lathes but not so much for CNC or even ones controlled with something like my ELS. Now granted I haven't yet put a motor on my South Bend Cross Slide and if I do want to use power feed I use the mechanical coupling and have the Z axis carriage lead screw motor drive it. And my South Bend has a taper attachment so there's no major motivation yet to do much more. So I'm presenting an idea but not using it on my South Bend.
But my Gingery Lathe has stepper motors on both axis. So power cross feed is there. And if I swap the spindle to some kind of servo then the future can see the spindle speed varying depending on the X axis position enabling a constant surface speed with better facing quality.
Here's a very old poor quality video of my ELS running my Gingery sharpening a tool bit. It really just was an exercise. I don't normally do it this way.
ELS Grinding Example
Anyway, converting a lathe or mill to have steppers or servos is so cheap nowadays that it should probably be on everyone's list.
I may get there some day, but for now I'm just old fashioned and I like things old school. No cnc or steppers on my list just yet.
But, high on my ToDo list is a 3phase motor and vfd for my lathe so I can run it at 50rpm.
So all that said, @trlvn is buying a new lathe. In this day and age, with so much variety out there right off the shelf, I can't see buying something less than I'd want brand new and then modifying the motor system. Then again, I'm even younger than Craig...... LOL!
Rauce
Ultra Member
It looks like an AC servo as a spindle motor could be similar in cost to an AC induction motor and VFD. How would you control an AC servo if the application is a manual lathe?
The Bergerda AC Servo I have has a 0-10V input just like a VFD. In fact, before I had the second BoB connected on the Mill I had a small Far East Pulse to Voltage module for 0V-10V to turn it.
See the attached pin out.
The keypad on the controller can also be told an RPM and then you can use an input to switch it on/off.
And you are right. I had a 2HP single phase motor on the mill. I looked around for a 3phase motor that would fit and a decent 2HP VFD which would then be run closed loop with the spindle encoder. Price was higher for that combination than the Bergerda since I also bought a couple of stepper drivers from them at the same time. The killer from Bergerda is shipping. They ship FedEx, tracked and that ends up costing. But even with that it was less than the AC 3 phase and I really like it.
It was major scary the first time I did power tapping with LinuxCNC. But so cool.
trlvn
Ultra Member
So I've muddied the waters again--I went to Busybee just to be sure that I wasn't interested in their offerings. Instead, the CX706 (10 X 22) is now in contention. Early on, I excluded it based on the 22 inch length and (I thought) lack of power cross-feed. But it does have power cross-feed and the 22 inch length doesn't look _that_ short in person. When I've been limited in the past, it is mainly because my little lathe only has a 1/2" through hole.
It is almost identical to the Precision Matthews PM-1030V except for the between-centres length (obviously) and lacking a QCTP. Both even have T-slots on the cross slide. The CX706 must come with extra change gears as it has many more options for both imperial and metric threading than the PM-1030V. Both go from 8 to 80 tpi but the BB has 37 options v. only 13 for the PM. Not a big deal but I thought that was odd.
The kicker is that the Busybee CX706 is on sale for $500 off: $3,099. The equivalent size PM is USD 2,799 or about CAD 3,520. Even if I spend $250 or so on the QCTP, I'm ahead by a couple hundred dollars. The CX706 is also not in stock currently but they say that they expect a shipment by mid-April. They seem much more definite about it than PM.
An internet search did not turn up many problems specific to the CX706. One guy had his nearly-new lathe stop in the middle of using it. It turned out to be a connection that separated on a spade lug. Not a big deal. If I did have a problem, BB's head office is 60 minutes away while PM is 4.5 hours.
I'm now leaning towards the CX706.
Craig
(BTW, the King Canada 10X22 is more money and does not have power cross-feed.)
It is almost identical to the Precision Matthews PM-1030V except for the between-centres length (obviously) and lacking a QCTP. Both even have T-slots on the cross slide. The CX706 must come with extra change gears as it has many more options for both imperial and metric threading than the PM-1030V. Both go from 8 to 80 tpi but the BB has 37 options v. only 13 for the PM. Not a big deal but I thought that was odd.
The kicker is that the Busybee CX706 is on sale for $500 off: $3,099. The equivalent size PM is USD 2,799 or about CAD 3,520. Even if I spend $250 or so on the QCTP, I'm ahead by a couple hundred dollars. The CX706 is also not in stock currently but they say that they expect a shipment by mid-April. They seem much more definite about it than PM.
An internet search did not turn up many problems specific to the CX706. One guy had his nearly-new lathe stop in the middle of using it. It turned out to be a connection that separated on a spade lug. Not a big deal. If I did have a problem, BB's head office is 60 minutes away while PM is 4.5 hours.
I'm now leaning towards the CX706.
Craig
(BTW, the King Canada 10X22 is more money and does not have power cross-feed.)
I've been a fan of Busy Bee and have their 3:1 sheet metal tool, corner notcher, 3 Ton Press and a bunch of tooling for the mill etc. Surfaceplaner came from King Canada. Gearbox developed a leak due to pin holes in the casting. They sent me a new one with bearings and seals. I had to rebuild it with the gears from mine. Their product on the west coast is distributed through KMS Tools.
trlvn
Ultra Member
Thanks! I had not seen those. Interesting about switching the fuse for a breaker. Sounds like a sensible upgrade.
There are a couple of good tidbits in the comments, too.
Craig
I had problems with my fuse holder on my BB 10x22 lathe. It was simply a flaky connection and was easy to fix in the end but I tested every other electrical component (and replaced many) before finally figuring that out tho.
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One thing to know about these BB (and king too I think) lathes is the gear changes are not convenient. There are a lot of gears 6? and very fussy to swap in and out. I just never did as it was too much. Another factor is the power feed is too fast even on its lowest setting to get a really good finish. Check that out so it’s not a surprise. Otherwise I really enjoyed mine before I got the 14x40.
Keeping in mind that you are going from an Atlas 618 to whatever you choose, anything larger is going to be an upgrade, to some degree. In general, for anyone upgrading in size, the majority of the cost is in the tooling. This is often overlooked. Myself, I have had many lathes, but mostly buying an selling until I had what I wanted. After a few, I met my first love...my forever lathe was my Emco V10P. I collected every bit of tooling applicable - it had a 1.5"/8tpi threaded spindle. Eventually I had every chuck I could want, Faceplate, steady rest, follow rest, DRO, AXA QCTP with a pile of holders, 3/8" and 1/2" shank holders, change gears for every thread, and so on...tons of $$ invested. It was a great lathe, but it wasn't super rigid. I could take a 0.0400 cut on mild steel before HP limited it, but it was very precise. I grew to hate the threaded spindle, after an incident...I think i posted about on here, and it was a bit small, and I wanted a 3 phase machine with a VFD.... I wanted its big sister, the Emco V13, and after years of searching, I finally found one. I sold the V10, and started over retooling the V13. I have spent thousands, even though I kept several chucks from my V10p, but its my for sure forever lathe. I bought new backplates to fit the D1-4 nose, new BXA qctp tool holders...got if fully tooled up, Brand new Ditron 3 axis DRO, etc. Spent thousands.....Then I found a very nice Monarch 10ee. The Holy Grail.....and it has a D1-3 spindle nose and now I have to start all over....If i keep it.
Moral of the story, since you are buying new, is to decide carefully. You have a lot of choices. It can be very costly to tool up a machine and then decide that its not quite what you want. The tooling is the expensive part, and it will change with the machine. Nevermind the hours of research/learning on a particular machine. You are way better off spending more up front to get the machine you will truly be happy with.
Also, In my opinion, I would not want to buy a NEW lathe if it didn't have a D1-x spindle, clutched feed shaft, and the option for a 3 phase motor, so I could install a VFD. That all can be had for not a lot more money, but it separates the toys from the real machines. Also, you have to think of resale value. There is no doubt that PM machines have a much higher resale value than Craftex, etc.
Just some rambling thoughts on the subject
Moral of the story, since you are buying new, is to decide carefully. You have a lot of choices. It can be very costly to tool up a machine and then decide that its not quite what you want. The tooling is the expensive part, and it will change with the machine. Nevermind the hours of research/learning on a particular machine. You are way better off spending more up front to get the machine you will truly be happy with.
Also, In my opinion, I would not want to buy a NEW lathe if it didn't have a D1-x spindle, clutched feed shaft, and the option for a 3 phase motor, so I could install a VFD. That all can be had for not a lot more money, but it separates the toys from the real machines. Also, you have to think of resale value. There is no doubt that PM machines have a much higher resale value than Craftex, etc.
Just some rambling thoughts on the subject
trlvn
Ultra Member
What is the finest feed per revolution on bigger machines? The BB CX706 gets down to 0.0025" per revolution. My old Atlas 618 has a 0.0024" feed rate so almost exactly the same. I almost always leave the 618 in that 0.0024" setting. At least the CX706 has the 3-position feed selector so that I can have 0.0025", 0.005" and 0.010" feed rates at the touch of a control.
I am resigned to changing gears for threading. Quinn (Blondihacks) made the point that on lathes in this class we are most often going to be threading with dies. So changing gears once in a while to do a non-standard single-point thread is not that bad. OTOH, it would be really nice to snag a good used lathe that includes a QCGB.
Craig
trlvn
Ultra Member
Hey! That's an accurate description of everything I've posted in this thread!
If I had a ground-level shop, I think I would have a much easier time finding a used lathe in 12-14 inch range and even a 2,000 pound machine would not be out of the question. (There was a Colchester Student advertised about an hour away just this week.) Short of buying a new house, there is no good way to get around the constraints I've got now.
To digress, don't ever take real estate advice from me. We bought this house in 1989 at the very crest of the peak of the market then. Between the time we signed the deal and took possession, it was clear that prices were falling. At the trough, the value might have fallen 40%!! It took nearly a decade to recover back to what we paid. The housing market today looks to me a lot like the late 1980's.
Anyway, I knew that the 618 was not going to be my forever lathe so I didn't spend that much on tooling. Lots of cheap HSS and an inexpensive QCTP that I should be able to resell. The 618 has bigger problems than I realized (bearings/spindle) and I want to get something that I don't have to fight all the time. If something changes* in the next few years and I have a bigger ground-level shop, well, the CX706 might might make a nice companion to big newcomer!
Craig
* My wife wants a craft studio with lots of light; my daughter would like a couple of horses and I'd like a big standalone shop. We can all dream!
I agree with everything @Darren says. I've only been through one upgrade though. I doubt I'll ever do it again. I love my lathe. Easy to upgrade it to a 3ph motor and vfd too and that is in my long range plan.
I have been through 3 mill upgrades though. Again, his advice is excellent. It has the ring and wisdom of experience.
I do NOT AGREE WITH Blondihacks. I almost never thread with a die on my lathe. I always single point. And I do a lot of it! Good thing I love doing it! My only bitch is speed. I am unhappy at 70rpm. I'd love to be able to thread at 50rpm. If you like your machine as much as I love mine, single point threading is a joy not a PIA.
Only one additional point @trlvn - if you plan to do a lot of threading, get a proper threading Micrometer. They are AWESOME! They beat using threading wires all day every day! In my opinion, hunting for a dropped wire in a pile of swarf with shaky old hands and eyes that don't work very well any more just plain sucks. Mine is analog (I hate digital) but it has a selection of tip sizes to accomodate a few thread ranges.
Dreaming is not bad but don't let it keep you from enjoying what you have now. I like the quote from Oprah Winfrey "Do what you have to until you can do what you want to"
For quite awhile I've always wished I had a bigger lathe and better tools, but have recently come to the conclusion that unless I win a lottery, that is not likely to happen. My "stuff" got alot more enjoyable to use once I started to focus on what it could do instead of what it couldn't do.
For quite awhile I've always wished I had a bigger lathe and better tools, but have recently come to the conclusion that unless I win a lottery, that is not likely to happen. My "stuff" got alot more enjoyable to use once I started to focus on what it could do instead of what it couldn't do.