So why does which way the electrons flow affect the heat generation?
And sorry, I meant MIG not TIG. Is this true for MIG too?
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What kind of welding machines you guys have ? Anyone got a Miller multimatic 220?
- Thread starter MW/MC
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So why does which way the electrons flow affect the heat generation?
And sorry, I meant MIG not TIG. Is this true for MIG too?
I don't know exactly, i don't have the right schooling for that, maybe there is someone in here with the theoretical training to know why it makes a difference
MIG, sorta, you will end up with very little penetration and a terrible arc, however gasless flux core requires straight polarity, I assume because the extra heat is needed to burn the flux
On the other side of the TIG issue, is, DCEP, aka reverse polarity, IS used to ball the sharpened end of your tungsten, so that it works best for AC TIG on Aluminum. Or at least, that was the process I was taught.
Nice to have a brass or copper bar on your welding table for that!Essentially, you are taking advantage of that extreme temperature in the Tungsten, to melt the end of it. Back the heat off slowly once you have a ball you are happy with, switch over to AC, and carry on!
I was taught that as well in college for welding 'ball the tungsten for aluminum'....then I worked in a Tig shop primarily welding aluminum for several years with many other much more experienced welders, forget balling the tungsten, that advice was outdated then, 18 years ago, a sharp point works much better
This is very strange. I googled it and came up with nothing. There is lots of application information like you guys provided but there doesn't seem to be much theory or science info out there. Or if there is, perhaps it is completely overshadowed by the application information. I guess that makes sense and might even be the reason why I can't weld worth crap. I'm not usually very good at things I don't understand and according to my wife I'm not even very good at following instructions of any kind either.
I think I have some old welding text books in my library from my years of working with resistance welding (spot welding). If I get time, I'll see what I can learn about how current flow direction affects the welding process and then share so we can make sense of it together.
Former Member
Guest
With Tig I've accidentally balled the tungsten and found it more of a hinderance even with Aluminium.
From what I've read it is slowly going by the wayside as the newer machines function differently on how they initiate the arc. Older machines still need it but newer ones it is more becoming users choice with the path of least work (ie no balling) starting to win out.
Just to clarify I am not a trained welder, I just do the best welds I can to be functional. Anything being sold, I pass it over to the pro's even if my welds look perfect.
From what I've read it is slowly going by the wayside as the newer machines function differently on how they initiate the arc. Older machines still need it but newer ones it is more becoming users choice with the path of least work (ie no balling) starting to win out.
Just to clarify I am not a trained welder, I just do the best welds I can to be functional. Anything being sold, I pass it over to the pro's even if my welds look perfect.
I imagine the reason is know in the science community, but I don't think you will find the info if you use welding in any part of the search, maybe if you look for the characteristics of an electric arc, might be a tough internet search
Yeah, the ball will eventually form by itself, and I have simply gave a quick taper to the end of the tungsten, esp when I wasn't on my game, and it spent too much time swimming in the puddles.
I have also <cough> just kept on going, and let the tip clean itself off, when it really didn't matter (mostly making boxes or cases for stuff, from dirty or salvaged metal of unknown pedigree, that was going to withstand being cleaned with a whizz wheel, or painted).
All I have ever run is transformer machines at wall frequency. Been trying to wrap my head around the updated differences using frequency control and balance and the like, and the differences with the newer Tungstens out there, even on old school machines. Kinda want an inverter with the bells and whistles. Don't really want to go too low end, as they still are not cheap, and a little leery of the circuitry in a better one, outside of Warranty period, as I have hadd VERY good results, as a bona-fide bottom feeder on Crown assets, BC Auction, Kijiji, etc., buying stuff that was sold for parts, and finding the simple problems within! Case in point is my Acklands/Miller Bobcat that came with the TIG Box too (they thought it was an air compressor of some sort). The unit had a full tank of diesel, a brand new battery in it, and a nice set of cables, and, get this, 12 whole hours on it from new! Started and ran like a champ. Lots of power at the 110v and 220v plugs, too.
The downside? No Arc! Turned out the factory grease on the Power Level selector and the Current Type selector levers, had dried so badly that it snotballed up when the levers were moved, and were holding the contacts apart. An easy fix! Some cleaning, and some new dielectric grease, and I was Caddilacin' in style with a brand new welder that cost me a little under a G-note, including gas and ferries to go to Victoria to pick it up!
Funny enough, I took what training I did, a few years prior to you, right around the Y2K debacle of assorted worries! LOL! Wasn't doing it towards a welding qual, it was a part of the broader training as an Aircraft Structures Tech, in the Forces, so we were not getting force fed Code and the like, just getting a start, to see if we showed enough talent to not lick the electrodes.
Or run away screaming when the Arc struck!
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Downwindtracker2
Super User
On the 'net, I ran across some electronics wizard that opened up machines , then explained what we were seeing. The best machine was Italian. On some machines the wiring was a rat's nest. That's simple way of checking.
KMS house brand is Magnum. They took over the folded General International's list of suppliers. I wanted to make some brackets for my quad out of stainless and using the MIG involved the purchase of still another bottle, Tri-Mix. I already had Argon and Mix tanks. I was looking for a stick machine, ideally, something like a DC Lincoln tombstone. For only a couple of hundred more ,KMS had a TIG/stick machine. They had just bought a large number of Wave 200KD from HuiGong(sp) Electric and needed to push a bunch out the door.To satisfy their banker, that's what fiquired. This was a bare machine, a heavy TIG torch and ground clamp only.I already had an Argon bottle, but I still needed flow meter, pedal , stinger and leads. At the time the Miller was 3x the price and the Lincoln Square Wave 2x as was the ESAB. They all have gone up a lot. In Vancouver, warranty for them all is done at the same shop except for the Lincoln SquareWave, that's by replacement so if you go for the Lincoln buy extended warranty. Once I found the manufacturer, after I had bought it of course, I was able to find through Google the reviews, it had good ones in Africa, Australia and New Zealand. It's a 220volt machine, but it is generator friendly. A lot aren't. The ESAB is a good machine made by Shanghai Electric but not as good as the earlier Japanese made model.
This very long winded way of saying if you find a ESAB model you like, there is a good chance HuiGong made a copy or the other way around, of the Shanghai Electric and KMS has a Magnum cheaper.
KMS house brand is Magnum. They took over the folded General International's list of suppliers. I wanted to make some brackets for my quad out of stainless and using the MIG involved the purchase of still another bottle, Tri-Mix. I already had Argon and Mix tanks. I was looking for a stick machine, ideally, something like a DC Lincoln tombstone. For only a couple of hundred more ,KMS had a TIG/stick machine. They had just bought a large number of Wave 200KD from HuiGong(sp) Electric and needed to push a bunch out the door.To satisfy their banker, that's what fiquired. This was a bare machine, a heavy TIG torch and ground clamp only.I already had an Argon bottle, but I still needed flow meter, pedal , stinger and leads. At the time the Miller was 3x the price and the Lincoln Square Wave 2x as was the ESAB. They all have gone up a lot. In Vancouver, warranty for them all is done at the same shop except for the Lincoln SquareWave, that's by replacement so if you go for the Lincoln buy extended warranty. Once I found the manufacturer, after I had bought it of course, I was able to find through Google the reviews, it had good ones in Africa, Australia and New Zealand. It's a 220volt machine, but it is generator friendly. A lot aren't. The ESAB is a good machine made by Shanghai Electric but not as good as the earlier Japanese made model.
This very long winded way of saying if you find a ESAB model you like, there is a good chance HuiGong made a copy or the other way around, of the Shanghai Electric and KMS has a Magnum cheaper.
Don't suppose you still know where you found that video? Or was it a lucky find on youtube?
My total guess is that to generate the arc, you need to ionize the electrons to make them flow free from the atom, and where that happens has the most heat?
I’m intrigued too.
It could be the Peltier Effect?
https://amadaweldtech.com/wp-conten...rity-on-the-Resistance-Welding-ProcessWeb.pdf
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
From what I recall of physics, the arc is created at very high temperatures, but the electron flow creates a wind that pushes the plasma in the direction of electron flow, hence cooler at one end and hotter at the other. Or, since the plasma is affected by magnetic fields, the attraction might well be magnetic - I don't know....
Former Member
Guest
I've welded TIG near a magnet, watching the arc deflect towards the magnet is cool. Physics lesson 101.
Electron wind sounds better to me than magnetics, as I recall that we had to memorize about a dozen (it seemed) "hand" Rules about magnetic fields around a flowing current, almost all of which put the magnetic flux field direction, around the conductor, rather than along it.
Fence welding lesson of somwhere in the first dozen or so, was that you can get a bit more stable arc, if you run the lead a few wraps around the steel post!
Yeah. Magnets around arcs are pretty neat stuff. Can't help but figure that the stuff is a smaller scale model of some bigger actions, like gravity and quantum entanglements.
I don’t think it’s an “electron wind”. In electric cables the electron’s drift velocity is very slow, whereas the magnet field travels at the speed of light.
(The magnetic field strength however is not instantaneous, it needs to build up)
This is probably going to be one of those questions where there are explanations for “each skin of the onion” and eventually we’ll reach the “no body knows” skin…
(The magnetic field strength however is not instantaneous, it needs to build up)
This is probably going to be one of those questions where there are explanations for “each skin of the onion” and eventually we’ll reach the “no body knows” skin…
Well... (lol!) the way that was explained to us dummies, was that it's not how fast the electrons move along the conductor, but that there is only so much room, so if you stuff one in at this end, one has to come out the other. Less a 'travel' than a displacement. Which helped us dummies think we understood, at least, enough that the 'rules' they were pounding in to us, didn't sound like complete gibberish.
Too small to see, so the theoretical guys can work it over until something new gets their attention, eh?
From a welding perspective, it's probably a LOT better to listen to the Applications guys, as they have, on the whole, fewer things that they have to shrug their shoulders at! Which is to say, instead of "We think that...", you hear "We tried that, and it worked, but not as well as this that we tried, under these conditions!"
If it works well, and stays working, it should work again next time!
That’s how I think of the electrons moving too, but then I got thinking about how quickly does the electron at one end know about the electron that got stuffed in at the other end…
That’s the curse of being an engineer… thinking “I went to university, I should know this”, but then eventually realizing that “nobody knows this” and I should have listened to the applications guys…
Downwindtracker2
Super User
Trevj, sorry I don't remember his name, but it was on YouTube .I however have used it a few times as a comment to which is better, Red or Blue.
Just don't lose any sleep over it. I figure the best way to understand it is that a. All this happens at or even faster than the speed of light, and b. Nobody can prove their theories yet! Like mine, that it happens faster than Light! He he he !
And I can say with Authority, I have heard a LOT of really dumb things, from actual Engineers! My fave to date though, was when I annotated a work order that came in with "Cannot be made as drawn, with our current equipment!", and the guy came storming in to the shop and lost his mind on me, but the best he could say to me was "You're the f***ing Expert, of course you can make it!"
In that case, they had a drawn up print of a part with nice clean 90 degree corners in the bottoms of every slot, because the original part was a weldement made up of about 50 pieces welded together, then drawn up as made, and they could not wrap their heads around why I could not make it in a basic manual machine shop....By machining the part out of solid....
Thanks! For the Reply!
I pushed a couple likely phrases in to YouTube's search function, and mostly ended up with not very useful stuff, on top of the usual glurge that Google thought I was meant to be interested in!
Some few of it was pretty interesting, and like my earlier related experience with the welder, it does show that a lot of the problems with electronics, are mechanical ones. But I would not have the first clue, how to track and troubleshoot an actual Logic level issue!
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