Rose Index

Timm Rosenthal

New Member
Hello All,
I am Timm Rosenthal, and very new to this site. I doubt I'll really have time to join in on typical conversations due to my daily activities. I really don't mean to be giving a sales pitch here, and please know that this is a very condensed version of the story. I have owned and operated my machineshop for over 17 years. Previous to my shop I was employed for 10 years at a local machineshop that specialized in mainly aircraft components. Technically I am a jobshop, and over the years there isn't much I haven't worked on.

I came up with the Rose-Index idea around a decade ago, however I didn't realize it for quite some time. Over a few years I made a few versions for various sized round parts until I was tired of making individual sizes. (I'm trying to work up the "Rose-Index Story" for a trade magazine) I do have a YouTube channel "Rosenthal Products" where I show real world uses of my gadget. I am trying to get after making more videos however I am very busy with kids, business, and being a single head of household.

The Rose-Index at it's simplest concept is "A reference" for round parts. How your creativity goes from there is where this tool really shines. I came up with the idea because I needed something simple and quick to index parts that I was machining. I do not keep an indexer on my table, and it was always an inconvenience for me to make room on my machines for one or two parts. Over the years I purchased just about any form of indexing they make so that I could hope to have the quickest way to index/hole round work to make my shop quicker and more efficient, however I still disliked round parts requiring index operations coming in the shop. (I do have a video showing all my indexers). I generally have vises on my machines in some sort of array. I firmly believe that a vise is one of the most rigid and flexible work holding devises that you can have, and most of us have them. If you have a vise you can typically turn it into a indexer in seconds and generally not need to adjust anything on your set ups. You can take a Rose-Index out of your tool box ...... put it on your work piece ....... Index ...... and put back in your tool box within seconds. In my daily activities this is huge and can really pay for itself in one use simply in time savings alone. Because it is not your work holding device it is removable. This aids in clearance issues. I could go on and on about this, however I'll wait to see if members of this site want to hear more.


I have come up with many scenarios where 1 rose index makes your life much easier. If you're open to having 2 of the same size there are few more actions that will become easier also. The concept I really like with the Rose-Index is that you can increase your machines work envelope quite easily. Simply shifting over a bit, or flipping your work end for end is very quick and easy......but if you have 2 you can really increase your work envelope. My biggest machine has 44 inches of X-axis travel (sorry about inches, however that's the way I work). With that 44" machine I was able to key a 14' 7" long shaft on both ends in time. I did this very accurately and I hope to get the video put together in the next month or so to show how I did it.


I have sold quite a few of these and I have had a lot of really nice feed back. One of the latest forms of praise without words was that I noticed the same name in a week as a customer. I looked at the delivery date and time of the first sale they purchased and under 2 hours after their first delivery they purchased the other size. I am confident if you give my index a try you will be happy you took the chance.


John reached out to me with the shipping problems and expense of parts crossing the boarder. I did not realize there were additional charges after I ship to Canada. In all honesty that aggravates me. I have shipped a couple times to Canada this year and I didn't realize that UPS/FedEx were adding additional charges. I want clarity on pricing for my customers. I would like to help out with an initial batch or two to Canada and learn better how it works, and to see what I can do to assist.

Please know that I'm not a big industry giant with loads of employees and a big check book. I'm simply an owner/operator of a small shop just trying to do my thing. I had an opportunity to leave my mark on machining world and I'm giving it a respectable try. The Rose-Index is hopefully a story and tool that will be useful long live after me in shops all over.

I truly am a very busy person, however this is my gadget and I take pride in it.....so please feel free to reach out and ask questions.

The original is my 2" steel version. I did not spare on material or time, and as a result it is extremely rigid and is something you won't regret purchasing. The 1" steel came next do to recommendations from my friends at LakeShore Carbide in New York. This is quite small actually in comparison to the 2" model. The size does actually make it very convenient for small parts and lots of clearance. I came out with the aluminum version for the hobby people that were concerned with pricing on Mr. Pete's square hole video. The aluminum versions do stretch a bit with increased screw pressures. You do not need much pressure on the screw, because the design really locks in well with the part. The aluminum and steel versions are the same size, and do work well together if you choose to save on a set of these.

I do the laser engraving in house. The "Degree Wheel" on my 2" Rose-Index is a simple way that I added the opportunity for 1 degree increment changes. The accuracy aspect is kind of a short story so for now please trust that these are extremely accurate. I plan to try making 5 degree increments on the 1" model, however it is a ways off and I don't know how useful it will really be.

I will leave it at this for now. Please feel free to reach out.

Thank you and best regards,
Timm Rosenthal
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
Welcome @Timm Rosenthal to the forum. I think there are a number of members who would like to make the jump from hobby to small manufacturer / job shop like you have. Well done. If you find some time some pictures and description of how you do your black oxide finishing and laser engraving would be well received.

Forum members - we just need one more group order of a rose index to make 5 and then the shipping cost will be reduced. PM me if interested.
 
Hello All,
I am Timm Rosenthal, and very new to this site. I doubt I'll really have time to join in on typical conversations due to my daily activities. I really don't mean to be giving a sales pitch here, and please know that this is a very condensed version of the story. I have owned and operated my machineshop for over 17 years. Previous to my shop I was employed for 10 years at a local machineshop that specialized in mainly aircraft components. Technically I am a jobshop, and over the years there isn't much I haven't worked on.

I came up with the Rose-Index idea around a decade ago, however I didn't realize it for quite some time. Over a few years I made a few versions for various sized round parts until I was tired of making individual sizes. (I'm trying to work up the "Rose-Index Story" for a trade magazine) I do have a YouTube channel "Rosenthal Products" where I show real world uses of my gadget. I am trying to get after making more videos however I am very busy with kids, business, and being a single head of household.

The Rose-Index at it's simplest concept is "A reference" for round parts. How your creativity goes from there is where this tool really shines. I came up with the idea because I needed something simple and quick to index parts that I was machining. I do not keep an indexer on my table, and it was always an inconvenience for me to make room on my machines for one or two parts. Over the years I purchased just about any form of indexing they make so that I could hope to have the quickest way to index/hole round work to make my shop quicker and more efficient, however I still disliked round parts requiring index operations coming in the shop. (I do have a video showing all my indexers). I generally have vises on my machines in some sort of array. I firmly believe that a vise is one of the most rigid and flexible work holding devises that you can have, and most of us have them. If you have a vise you can typically turn it into a indexer in seconds and generally not need to adjust anything on your set ups. You can take a Rose-Index out of your tool box ...... put it on your work piece ....... Index ...... and put back in your tool box within seconds. In my daily activities this is huge and can really pay for itself in one use simply in time savings alone. Because it is not your work holding device it is removable. This aids in clearance issues. I could go on and on about this, however I'll wait to see if members of this site want to hear more.


I have come up with many scenarios where 1 rose index makes your life much easier. If you're open to having 2 of the same size there are few more actions that will become easier also. The concept I really like with the Rose-Index is that you can increase your machines work envelope quite easily. Simply shifting over a bit, or flipping your work end for end is very quick and easy......but if you have 2 you can really increase your work envelope. My biggest machine has 44 inches of X-axis travel (sorry about inches, however that's the way I work). With that 44" machine I was able to key a 14' 7" long shaft on both ends in time. I did this very accurately and I hope to get the video put together in the next month or so to show how I did it.


I have sold quite a few of these and I have had a lot of really nice feed back. One of the latest forms of praise without words was that I noticed the same name in a week as a customer. I looked at the delivery date and time of the first sale they purchased and under 2 hours after their first delivery they purchased the other size. I am confident if you give my index a try you will be happy you took the chance.


John reached out to me with the shipping problems and expense of parts crossing the boarder. I did not realize there were additional charges after I ship to Canada. In all honesty that aggravates me. I have shipped a couple times to Canada this year and I didn't realize that UPS/FedEx were adding additional charges. I want clarity on pricing for my customers. I would like to help out with an initial batch or two to Canada and learn better how it works, and to see what I can do to assist.

Please know that I'm not a big industry giant with loads of employees and a big check book. I'm simply an owner/operator of a small shop just trying to do my thing. I had an opportunity to leave my mark on machining world and I'm giving it a respectable try. The Rose-Index is hopefully a story and tool that will be useful long live after me in shops all over.

I truly am a very busy person, however this is my gadget and I take pride in it.....so please feel free to reach out and ask questions.

The original is my 2" steel version. I did not spare on material or time, and as a result it is extremely rigid and is something you won't regret purchasing. The 1" steel came next do to recommendations from my friends at LakeShore Carbide in New York. This is quite small actually in comparison to the 2" model. The size does actually make it very convenient for small parts and lots of clearance. I came out with the aluminum version for the hobby people that were concerned with pricing on Mr. Pete's square hole video. The aluminum versions do stretch a bit with increased screw pressures. You do not need much pressure on the screw, because the design really locks in well with the part. The aluminum and steel versions are the same size, and do work well together if you choose to save on a set of these.

I do the laser engraving in house. The "Degree Wheel" on my 2" Rose-Index is a simple way that I added the opportunity for 1 degree increment changes. The accuracy aspect is kind of a short story so for now please trust that these are extremely accurate. I plan to try making 5 degree increments on the 1" model, however it is a ways off and I don't know how useful it will really be.

I will leave it at this for now. Please feel free to reach out.

Thank you and best regards,
Timm Rosenthal
Dude you had me at hello ;)

Welcome

Just like your right to income from your intellectual property Governments are entitled to their taxes. The evil lies in "inflated" brokerage fees charged by couriers who are already paid to ship a product. I don't quibble about a fair fee... just inflated ones.

The best way to deliver the fair affordable shipping to Canada is to use a shipping method that charges a fair a brokerage fee, unlike most couriers.

Canada Post is the only entity that has reasonable fees for customs brokerage services. But wait, how do you use Canada Post when you're not in Canada? You use your national postal service that has agreements with Canada Post, so in the USA that means the good ole US postal service. They're my preferred carrier of goods from the USA.

Sadly, while most companies in the USA will ship USPS domestically they wont Internationally. I wont buy from such companies, or I end up using a transshipment company a few times a year for when I save up and have a ton of items sent to myself via Buffalo.
 
Last edited:

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
Welcome Timm, I've been eyeballing the index for a while but can't get past the brokerage crap.

It's not just cross border where the shipping is stupid, I just got charged $38 shipping (Purolator) for one $36 collet that traveled from Vancouver to Victoria. The only reason I did it was to use up a credit I had with the company, otherwise I'd have gone else where.
 

curmudgeon

(Steve)
John reached out to me with the shipping problems and expense of parts crossing the boarder. I did not realize there were additional charges after I ship to Canada. In all honesty that aggravates me. I have shipped a couple times to Canada this year and I didn't realize that UPS/FedEx were adding additional charges. I want clarity on pricing for my customers. I would like to help out with an initial batch or two to Canada and learn better how it works, and to see what I can do to assist.

Welcome and thanks for the great intro.

Like @TorontoBuilder said, the kindest thing you can do for your northern customers is to offer USPS international shipping. Canada Post does not add unfair charges to collect the required Canadian and Provincial sales taxes. I avoid ordering from US suppliers that do not offer USPS shipping.

If I must... I'll usually have them ship to Blaine, WA where a freight forwarder trucks the package to YYJ International Airport and holds it in their bonded warehouse until I clear customs (pay taxes and potentially duty). I have to figure in the extra (but reasonable) cost of the freight forwarder, plus the time to get out to the airport. I've been pretty lucky with the customs agents often not bothering to collect the taxes.
 

Dabbler

Ultra Member
Welcome Timm!

Thanks for your care about unfair brokerage fees from US carriers that ship to Canada. The only 2 carriers that result in consistent and appropriate fees are USPS via Canada Post and Yellow Freight (for class 5 and larger shipments).

I hope the best of success to your shop and product.
 

Timm Rosenthal

New Member
I'm taking a late lunch and I don't have much time. I'll check back later.


Janger- I do have a professional plating service do the Zinc plating on the Steel, and the Aluminum are Hard Anodized thru another professional business I work with.
I'm open to try to give advise and information that I learned going into business.....But Please have some questions listed out. I've had many trials and tribulations across 17 years and that would be a very long story to put out. Simply put you have to be "All In" I risked just about everything with my future due to starting from scratch and trying to be a full machineshop right away. I leveraged what I had, and I had years of preparation before I made the leap.

TorontoBuilder-I'm glad that John reached out. I was completely unaware and caught off guard. I plan to figure out what the best I can do for the end user. As for now I'm glad I had you at hello.

YotaBota-I've done other people's machining for quite some time. They or I typically deliver the parts. Over the years my customer basis has spread out to other locations where I use their shipping accounts and haven't had to worry about shipping and how it works. If you and your peers are willing to work with me and figure this out I would appreciate it.

Curmudgeon-Technically we live on the same ground without any air/sea shipping necissary. Unfortunately we are "Different Countries". I have shipped to UK, Malta, Australia, and a few other countries. My local shipper gave me advice of using a UPS/FedEx because: When the shipment leaves the United States the USPS is no longer responsible. He mentioned that with a world wide shipper such as UPS and FedEx that the package is with an employee typically until it is delivered. My thinking of them being responsible from my door to the customer's door made the most sense, and had some insurance that responsibility would be easier to prove if there was something lost or damaged. With this seeming to work so far I just decided to not change what I thought was working. My son typically takes care of the Website and shipping aspects inside the website also. We are trying to see what we can do to offer up USPS shipping to Canada and try to deter other countries for not using the USPS until I have more knowledge of how it works and have some successful transitions.

Dabbler-Thanks for your input.

All of you- Thank you for the warm welcome. I sincerely appreciate it.

I am off to work,
Timm
 

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
Timm - although we all appreciate a deal packaging and shipping takes time and time is money so please don't under cut yourself.

Big business doesn't blink at shipping costs since most times it can be a business expense and a write-off which doesn't work well for us hobby/single purchase guys.

I thought there'd be a better response from the group but it is what it is. By the time the small steel index is in my hand it be $120ish cdn so it is looks like a lot for a small piece of steel but this will work well for me as I don't have collet blocks.
 

Timm Rosenthal

New Member
Timm - although we all appreciate a deal packaging and shipping takes time and time is money so please don't under cut yourself.

Big business doesn't blink at shipping costs since most times it can be a business expense and a write-off which doesn't work well for us hobby/single purchase guys.

I thought there'd be a better response from the group but it is what it is. By the time the small steel index is in my hand it be $120ish cdn so it is looks like a lot for a small piece of steel but this will work well for me as I don't have collet blocks.
Mike,
I don't want to undercut myself, however consider me helping you some is an advertising expense.

-The Rose-Index is something that is really a great tool. After you use it a few times and really start to get creative with it you'll wish you had it years ago.
-There is also the fact that I don't want to be a sales man. I dislike sales people because typically they brag and over sell a product ..... then the product falls short of your expectations. I would rather undersell my abilities and over perform. I sincerely do my best to be humble.....yet that typically doesn't help sales.
-Then there is also the reality that I have no history with you and your peers.

With these things being said you're willing to take the chance and I'm pretty confident after you use yours a couple times you'll be willing to give feedback. Your feedback means much more than mine to the world and your peers. My hope is that you'll look at the quality, feel, and ease of use and take time to tell others after you get a feel for it.

Here is a link to my original video that shows the basics of use. This was filmed very early on. In time I realized that it works better if the vee is pointed towards you....and you push the machinist square into the Rose-Index when you tighten up the setscrew....this way really helps to center things up very well and there really isn't any movement when tightening up the screw.


Be well....and thank you for your concern.
Timm Rosenthal
 

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
With that attitude you wouldn't make it thru the first day as a car salesman, and please take that as a compliment. :D

There are a couple of small jobs on the list so I will definitely let you know how it goes.
Take care and stay safe.
Mike
 
Mike,
I don't want to undercut myself, however consider me helping you some is an advertising expense.

-The Rose-Index is something that is really a great tool. After you use it a few times and really start to get creative with it you'll wish you had it years ago.
-There is also the fact that I don't want to be a sales man. I dislike sales people because typically they brag and over sell a product ..... then the product falls short of your expectations. I would rather undersell my abilities and over perform. I sincerely do my best to be humble.....yet that typically doesn't help sales.
-Then there is also the reality that I have no history with you and your peers.

With these things being said you're willing to take the chance and I'm pretty confident after you use yours a couple times you'll be willing to give feedback. Your feedback means much more than mine to the world and your peers. My hope is that you'll look at the quality, feel, and ease of use and take time to tell others after you get a feel for it.

Here is a link to my original video that shows the basics of use. This was filmed very early on. In time I realized that it works better if the vee is pointed towards you....and you push the machinist square into the Rose-Index when you tighten up the setscrew....this way really helps to center things up very well and there really isn't any movement when tightening up the screw.


Be well....and thank you for your concern.
Timm Rosenthal
I look forward to using mine very very soon to cut the square heads on a bunch of these:

IMG_20221125_222707927.jpg
 
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