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Rose Index

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
I saw this Rose Index tool on a video by Tubalcain. It was invented by and is made by Timm Rosenthal.

The Rose index lets you accurately rotate a part to specific angles in the mill without a rotary table or spin indexer. The idea is simple. Attach the indexer to your part and align the edge to a machinist square. Rotate to the desired angle, and align to the square again. Tighten vise and do the next operation. Could you use it in the lathe too? hmmm.

Pretty nifty concept. He has a patent too: https://patents.google.com/patent/US10850359B2/en?q=rosenthal&inventor=timm&oq=+timm+rosenthal

Store: https://rosenthalproducts.com/collections/all
He has different sizes and a fine adjustable version.

Here is tubalcain in action:
advance to 7:22 to see it.

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1666559156294.png 1666559083134.png
 

YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
How did I miss this?
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
I did elongate it but not enough. The first one still has a bit of wiggle with a 1/2" bar. The next one will have more of a V shape.
 

Degen

Ultra Member
Premium Member
I can see both the advantages (rapid setup) and disadvantages (accuracy and holding strength) compared to a collet type blocks that do the same only with the exact opposite in advantages and disadvantages.

IMHO it is one of the things that depending on what you have or do determines which you would prefer.
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
I can see both the advantages (rapid setup) and disadvantages (accuracy and holding strength) compared to a collet type blocks that do the same only with the exact opposite in advantages and disadvantages.

IMHO it is one of the things that depending on what you have or do determines which you would prefer.
I agree Degen. I have a shop made ER32 collet block but the one I made only does 90 degree rotations. I'd like one that is six sided too. I think the rose index is quick and simple to use so attractive that way.
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
I finished my second rose index today with a more pronounced V shape. Here is the first test. Works pretty well. One thing is the 3/8 rod is not tight enough when gripping the material in the index. The material can loosen up too easily. How can I fix that problem?
 

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YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
One thing is the 3/8 rod is not tight enough when gripping the material in the index. The material can loosen up too easily. How can I fix that problem?

Use a Hex Head Cap Screw rather than your slotted screw.

Is your rose steel or aluminum?
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
This one is aluminium. 3/8 2" long hex cap screw. I'll see what I can find. Sounds like an unusual size.
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
This one is aluminium. 3/8 2" long hex cap screw. I'll see what I can find. Sounds like an unusual size.
Are you sure the aluminium isn't being bent out of shape when you tighten the screw. Perhaps make some sort of alignment mark on the screw relative to the index and see if it has turned.
If it's turned then a locking nut seems to be a good solution. But if it hasn't turned and the material has loosened then I'd guess the aluminium is stretching.
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
locking nut - that's a great idea John. I'll try that. I don't think it's stretching - there's a lot of material but I will check. I think the thread has a lot of slop as it's just ready rod cut down. I think a finer thread 3/8-NF would work better. I would need a full thread NF fastener.
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Moderator
Premium Member
Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...

Gunna be hard to find so why not just make them. Most socket head cap screws are Grade 5 or 8 so a die might not work. But sharp HSS will cut it on the lathe as long as you don't take too big a bite.
 

Tecnico

(Dave)
Where do you get full thread fasteners? Bolt supply dot com does not seem to have them on their web site...
I recently bought a box of 10, 3/8-16 x 3" for the princely sum of $1.99 from Princess Auto. Made in China with no grading marked on the heads so ya pays yer money & takes yer chances on strength.

McMaster has Grade 8 fully threaded in 3/8-16 & 3/8-24.

You might also find them called a "Tap Bolt" which is fully threaded but with no integral washer face.

D:cool:
 

Dan Dubeau

Ultra Member
Look good John. I've wanted to make one of those for a while. Seeing your post might kick my butt in gear to do it. Allthread with a nut plug welded on the end makes a quick and easy full length thread bolt. You can turn the end smooth in a lathe if you're picky :D
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Premium Member
I recently bought a box of 10, 3/8-16 x 3" for the princely sum of $1.99 from Princess Auto. Made in China with no grading marked on the heads so ya pays yer money & takes yer chances on strength.

McMaster has Grade 8 fully threaded in 3/8-16 & 3/8-24.

You might also find them called a "Tap Bolt" which is fully threaded but with no integral washer face.

D:cool:
McMaster certainly has a great selection of everything. But a 3/8-24 2.5" long bolt is $5USD. and shipping last time I ordered from them was $31CAD. So probably not ordering from them. It got here the next day and I ordered Sunday afternoon or something. They are super organized, efficient, have everything and expensive. |o_O I went by bolt supply and they don't have any full thread bolts on hand. I could probably order a box. The also didn't have any 3/8-24 NF ready rod at that location. The sourcing hunt continues.

I decided to try making a 3/8 NF bolt out of bronze. I 3D printed a small rose index out of polycarbonate with full infill to work on the bolt. It feels really solid and turned out nice. BUT. In usage the first time I found it was stretching when I tightened up the bolt to hold the part. I also found the bolt skated around on the part in use and I ended up with non parallel sides on my fabricated bolt head. Clearance and work holding is tricky to work out. It would be best to have a lot of extra material to grab on to. First time I used the rose index so learning learning...

Question for the forum. What to do with the work holding bolt so it does not skate around? I think making the rose index out of metal would help. Also though the end of the work holding bolt in the commercial version is a flat brass insert on the end of the set screw. Would that skate less? Why? I could sharpen the bolt end and have it dig in to the work. Damages the work though.
 

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YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
Shoe1.JPG

Make a shoe such that the screw bears down on the stock with two points of contact.

OR

Make a set of roses with different hole sizes to better accommodate the stock to be modified.
 
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