Really ?

[YotaBota]

Maybe they were hearing protection style ear muffs

The news reports said they were music headphones and not just hearing protection. You're right about the safety devices though, mine are 32db muffs and work great as long as no one is yelling "LOOK OUT" at me.

 

[Susquatch]

Money factors into everything. But if the evidence shows that helmets and seat belts save people why wouldn't you adopt it?

Humans make decisions based on many factors, not just safety and risk. Thrillseeking with activities like skydiving and rodeos don't make any sense at all to many of us. Similarly we take risks driving to work each and every day. In that context, it's easy to think about the safety of a helmut vs the wind in our hair riding a pedal bike. It's just a choice we make despite the evidence. We all make risk related decisions each and every day. Some people are just more risk averse than others. But we all take risks. It's just a matter of degree.

 

[Elektrishun]

Humans make decisions based on many factors, not just safety and risk. Thrillseeking with activities like skydiving and rodeos don't make any sense at all to many of us. Similarly we take risks driving to work each and every day. In that context, it's easy to think about the safety of a helmut vs the wind in our hair riding a pedal bike. It's just a choice we make despite the evidence. We all make risk related decisions each and every day. Some people are just more risk averse than others. But we all take risks. It's just a matter of degree.

Can't prevent all accidents but you can go a long way to mitigate the damage when something goes wrong.

I don't know the stats but I would expect that it is riskier to not use a seatbelt or a helmet when driving in a city than it is to jump out of a plane.

 

[slow-poke]

Can't prevent all accidents but you can go a long way to mitigate the damage when something goes wrong.

I don't know the stats but I would expect that it is riskier to not use a seatbelt or a helmet when driving in a city than it is to jump out of a plane.Skydiving fatalities 10 per 3.6 million, so safer than many activities for example scuba diving.. IMHO if you pick a good skydiving school you're pretty safe. The school I went to everyone packs their own chute. The initial free fall until your chute opens is quite the feeling landing if you flare properly is like stepping off a chair or perhaps even softer. N your first jump you can maneuver to within say 10' of your desired target.

Yes safer than many activities for example scuba diving. Stats are 10 per 3.6 million jumps. Picking a good school can further change those odds in your favour. We avoided the school north of GTA at the time they used antiquated equipment and had a poor safety record. The school we chose had no fatalities and very low accidents. Everyone packs their own chute.

For those that have not done it, the initial free fall is quite the feeling but after your chute is open it's a really pleasant slow ride down. You can maneuver very easily you can land within about 10' of your desired landing spot on your first jump and if you flare properly the actual touchdown is softer than stepping off a chair.

They rehearse what to do if your chute doesn't deploy or if you get a bad chute (a twister). If that were to happen on your first jump, you better have composure because you need to jettison your bad chute (making sure to not jettison your emergency backup and you don't have forever to do it, I would imagine some percentage of the population would screw up under pressure.

I scuba dive and I found cave diving much riskier and scary in comparison. I find a ride on a fast motorcycle or even driving a car at > 140MPH a bit scary not so much the actual event but the thought of what happens if something goes sideways. I'm a bit of a thrill seeker but I once had a ride in an old spy plane and the pilot quickly found my thrill seeking tolerance;-) so it's all relative. I have a good friend that is a serious adrenaline junkie and he had a "good" ride in a voodoo and he was white hours later I had a good chuckle hearing from him about how scary it was.

I think "those" pilots are another breed altogether, I recall picking strawberries in California adjacent to a military airfield, some guy was heading home for the day I guess and the road from the airbase to the highway was > km long he had his motorcycle up to at least 175MPH I have never observed a motorcycle going that fast.

 

[Elektrishun]

I scuba dive and I found cave diving much riskier and scary in comparison. I find a fast ride on a motorcycle or even driving a car at > 140MPH a bit scary not so much the actual event but the thought of what happens if something goes sideways. I'm a bit of a thrill seeker but I once had a ride in an old spy plane and the pilot quickly found my thrill seeking tolerance;-) so it's all relative. I have a good friend that is a serious adrenaline junkie and he had a "good" ride in a voodoo and he was white hours later I had a good chuckle hearing from him how scary it was.

I don't like tight spaces ever since my brother intentionally collapsed a snow fort on top of me and I got trapped. I think I was 7 at the time. Cave diving, cave exploring, anything to do with caves other than The Cave restaurant in Saskatoon and I'm out.🙂

 

[Doggggboy]

I don't like tight spaces ever since my brother intentionally collapsed a snow fort on top of me and I got trapped. I think I was 7 at the time. Cave diving, cave exploring, anything to do with caves other than The Cave restaurant in Saskatoon and I'm out.🙂

Brothers can be real a-holes.

 

[slow-poke]

Brothers can be real a-holes.

I have a great brother but he did test me. One thing he would do in front of his friends for their entertainment was the limbo, he would grab me and manipulate me so I was bent over backwards in the limbo position and somehow I was always able to get myself straightened up and out of the limbo position even when I was seriously bent over. Sometimes it would take a fair bit of time while they laughed and they found this hilarious. All in good fun.

 

[JustaDB]

But if the evidence shows that helmets and seat belts save people why wouldn't you adopt it?

I haven't seen any recent data, but when I was still following the motorcycle helmet debate back in the 80's & early 90's, the data clearly showed that states with mandatory helmet laws had both higher rates of accidents and higher death rates than those without mandatory laws. Better vision, better hearing, no false sense of security.

 

[Elektrishun]

I haven't seen any recent data, but when I was still following the motorcycle helmet debate back in the 80's & early 90's, the data clearly showed that states with mandatory helmet laws had both higher rates of accidents and higher death rates than those without mandatory laws. Better vision, better hearing, no false sense of security.

Accident stats

Just one source that flips that completely around. Is it legit? I dunno. I am always a little skeptical with stats.

 

[Elektrishun]

Same source making big claims

Lax helmet laws have killed more than 20,000 motorcyclists, study shows​

October 16, 2024


In my last job I was heavily involved with improving safety so that's where I am coming from.

Risk Management - what can you control vs what you can't.

You can put a helmet on and buckle up. Such an easy thing to do. Like wearing safety glasses and steel toed boots on a construction site. It's called due diligence at work. Covers management's ass and might save yours.

 

[JustaDB]

I don't understand this generation of people who walk around with something blasting in their ears while walking such that their sense of hearing is effectively disabled.

Up in Calgary today, heading east on Glenmore Trail. Stopped at the red light at 52nd behind a car in the hammer lane sporting a big yellow sticker, "Beginning Driver, please be patient". He pulled away from the light dead slow, traffic is piling up behind us. People are changing to the LH lanes & going around him. We did, too. As we got alongside we could see the full coverage headphones (not ear buds) on the young black kid.

 

[JustaDB]

I am always a little skeptical with stats.

Me, too. The stats back then also showed that states w/ mandatory helmet laws that repealed said laws had both lower accident rates & lower fatalities.

 

[Elektrishun]

Me, too. The stats back then also showed that states w/ mandatory helmet laws that repealed said laws had both lower accident rates & lower fatalities.

I am looking for sources that might be less likely to have conflicting hidden agendas:

Eastern Association for the Surgery of Trauma

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Association, in 2008, 5,290 motorcyclists died and 96,000 were injured. Motorcycles make up ∼3% of all registered vehicles in the United States and account for only 0.4% of all vehicle miles traveled. However, motorcycle crashes accounted for ∼10% of all motor vehicle crash fatalities, and per mile traveled, motor cycle crashes are ∼37 times more lethal than automobile crashes.

Head injuries are one of the most common injuries after motorcycle crashes and were estimated to be the cause of death in >50% of these fatalities. In close to a third of these victims, the head injury is the sole organ system that is injured. However, in the majority of patients, estimated as high as 90% of some patient cohorts, a head injury is present along with other injuries. Despite these facts, it is estimated that only 50% of motorcyclists routinely wear helmets.

It was intuitive even to our earliest ancestors that a hard shell would protect the head from injury. However, establishing the effectiveness of the motorcycle helmet remains a challenging effort especially in light of the powerful opposition to universal helmet laws. Furthermore, quantifying the protective effect of helmets supports the promotion of helmet programs regardless of the controversial nature of legislative efforts.


I know this is a serious topic but I instantly got a picture of Fred Flintstone in my head after reading that last paragraph. 😀

 

[Susquatch]

Can't prevent all accidents but you can go a long way to mitigate the damage when something goes wrong.

I wasn't arguing about that. You are absolutely right. I am only saying that some are willing to take more risks than others.

I don't know the stats but I would expect that it is riskier to not use a seatbelt or a helmet when driving in a city than it is to jump out of a plane.

You could be right. Again, that wasn't my point. My point was about taking risks. No way in hell am I gunna skydive. True risk aside, it's outside my PERCEIVED risk behaviour tolerance. On the other hand, I have never worn a bicycle Helmut in my life and prolly never will. It's a risk I take quite willingly even knowing I could get hurt.

All I was trying to say is that people are not all the same. We all have different thresholds for what is a reasonable risk.

I was also trying to point out that we cannot achieve a total risk free environment. Since we cannot have zero and nobody would choose 100, that means each of us must choose a reasonable risk for ourselves. Your risk tolerance is just lower than mine. I don't dislike you for that. Nor do I think you are crazy. I'm not even arguing with your choices. Just saying that I've chosen to take more risks than you have.

While we are talking about risk, there is a book that I highly recommend for everyone to read regardless of their risk tolerance. It's called "Risk - The Science and Politics of Fear" by Dan Gardener. It's a fantastic read and is available in digital and paper format.

Risk: The Science and Politics of Fear. Dan Gardner: Gardner, Dan: 9780753515532: Books - Amazon.ca

Risk: The Science and Politics of Fear. Dan Gardner: Gardner, Dan: 9780753515532: Books - Amazon.ca

a.co

 

[Mcgyver]

Bicycle helmets, seat belts, etc. The downside? (No politics) Gov't mandates interfering in every aspect of our lives, from the minute we get up in the morning until our heads hit the pillow at night. And then every minute we're asleep.

Once again: educate, train, then let us make the decisions for our children & ourselves. Quit addressing the effect instead of the cause. Lose the Nanny State.

It's the age old conflict between public good vs individual rights - both are important you're never going to get everyone agreeing on every line.

Overall I agree with your sentiment, imo a lot less government and a culture that was far more demanding of personal responsibility would be ideal. The problem is there are a lot of stupid out there and their children are not chattels. Stupid enough you cannot depend on them to do a decent job protecting their kids. I'm not ok with some kid being sentenced to death or life in a wheel chair because a knuckle dragging parent didn't see the advantages of seat belts. And while I'm ok with the position that the adult should decide for the themselves, I'm not so ok with public funded healthcare for when they get racked up because of not wearing one. otoh ..... there are reasons to believe the whole car seat thing, or at least the extent of it, is an industry driven business development strategy turned into a social phenomenia.... so I suppose it's rarely black and white.

My rather intense dislike for government was tempered somewhat by a recent interview with former investment banker and now author/finanical reporter Michael Lewis. He wrote Moneyball and The Big Short, which to me gives him a fair bit of crediblity on coming up some economically sound comentary on the world. Anyway, his line was government is in essence taking on all the risks that need taking on, and that the private sector isn't will to address. Like that the rivers not catching fire, people being educated, criminals, battling fires, what to do with the nastiest waste etc. Kind of an interesting way of looking at, that, while I wish gov was 1/4 of what it is, takes some of the sting out of it.

 

[Susquatch]

there are reasons to believe the whole car seat thing, or at least the extent of it, is an industry driven business development strategy turned into a social phenomenia....

There is an element of truth to that.

But I have been intimately involved in the injury studies, the product development, the testing, the regulatory side of it, and the public education programs. I even did some of the train the trainer work for St John Ambulance (who train other trainers) and provincial police forces. I have personally investigated accidents where children have been injured and killed - with and without child safety devices.

Babies and children have a different body structure than adults and therefore they need different restraint systems to help protect them. I don't think it's a bad thing that there is a profitable business sector making this possible.

I'd also add that these restraints must be tested and shown to meet the regulatory standards before they can be sold.

To come back to your concern, I can assure you that the need was recognized long before the business strategy was developed. But that said, it is true that everyone involved wanted the subsequent business strategies to succeed. Strange but true.

I also recieved national recognition for my efforts to change the public perception of child seat safety because I recognized that it was easier to increase usage if people wanted to use them rather than ram it down their throat. I'm sure that is big part of what you recognize as:

turned into a social phenomenia

 

[slow-poke]

Back in the 70's before seatbelt laws, I didn't wear my seatbelt most of the time. I was coming home from work it was dark in winter. There was a shortcut route I could take through what was about to be a new development so no houses yet, but the streets were all paved and no cars, and no streetlights yet. Casually driving about 60km/hr and as I entered a bend in the road I realized too late that I was driving on pure black ice, zero steering and near zero brakes. I hit the curb, was thrown out of my seat and ended up in the footwell of the passenger side. I had a good bonk on the noggin, mirror was torn off. Some damage to the front suspension.

Lesson learned, I have never driven without my seatbelt since that day.

 

[L98Fiero]

Wouldn't take a new Hyundai for free because I would probably end up paying the original cost back in repairs. Not to mention, until the engine fire recall is remedied you're supposed to park it in the middle of an abandoned parking lot or in the closest desert incase it goes up in flames.😳

That said, we found a fairly high mileage 2005 Hyundai Tucson that my daughter purchased for her first car (slim pickings during COVID). Would purchase one myself if I could find another in as good of condition.

?????????

Recently the battery in my 2003 Toyota Tundra failed, after a boost, the tow truck driver, volunteered that if you want to get to know a tow truck driver, buy a Hyundai.

 

[Elektrishun]

@Susquatch

In reference to me missing your point, I honestly think we missed each other's.

No reasonable person is expecting a risk free environment.

The main thing I keep repeating is that it appears helmets and seatbelts save lives. So people can say what they want but arguing against the effectiveness seems silly.

Now, let's address the elephant in the room.

I stated before that adults should have the right to choose for themselves with helmets and seatbelts.

But if you want to opt out of a helmet or seatbelt then somehow people in Canada should have greater responsibility for making that choice. Maybe it should be stated on your license?

When we are in a serious accident we become a burden to society, family, friends, first responders, etc. Statics show you will likely be in worse shape without the helmet or seatbelt. Instead of universal healthcare footing the bill for those who "while sound of mind" choose to opt out then the insurance company or your bank account can cover the cost for your higher risk choice.

I believe that is how it works in several states in the USA where people can make that choice.

Most parents tell their kids that part of being an adult means taking responsibility for your actions. If your actions are to not wear a helmet or a seatbelt despite all the evidence then you should be prepared to at least bare the financial burden for that decision.

Obviously that is not how it works here so until it changes buckle up and wear the helmet.

Can of worms opened (ducks for cover...with helmet on and seatbelt fastened). 🙂

 

[Elektrishun]

And while I'm ok with the position that the adult should decide for the themselves, I'm not so ok with public funded healthcare for when they get racked up because of not wearing one.

You addressed the elephant in the room before I did. 🙂