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Electronic lead screw ELS - Rocketronics solution on Modern Tool C0636 lathe

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
yes, been using it for a few months on a 10x22 lathe. Very pleased. Let me know what you want demo'd for your upcoming visit so I can get it set up ahead of time :)
I may be able to live with metric only rocketronics els if everything else is really good.

I've got a few special operations I'd wish to do with an ELS. I don't expect anyone to demo them for me, but it would be nice for me to see the GUI and look at the steps required to input the set-up of some of them, such as:

line boring and line boring to a hard stop, and internal groove cutting

multi-start threading

thread undercutting

turning internal elliptical tapers or I guess you could call them cones

setting up sequential ball and taper turning operations (to create tapered handles with a ball on each end like is common on the quorn cutter grinder

and all grinding operational inputs, since I'm going to be doing a lot of finish grinding
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
I'll answer a few questions that have come up above. I'm still working on the ELS install - I'm not done yet. I'm using the 8Nm motor kit.
Package SERVO L 8Nm up to approx. 400 Kg for 528 Euro.
To ensure this would work I tested cuts on the lathe at various depths and feeds by turning a torque wrench on the lead screw and I did not go past 5-6 Nm. I think I posted this already but I can't find it now. Perhaps it was lost in the Christmas crash. Anyway here are the test results again:

Lathe testing - turning lead screw with torque wrench to test various cutting scenarios.

1.375” diameter steel, 460 RPM,


DOC (measuring diameter so half this figure is depth of cut)TorqueResult
0.12.0 Nmslips
0.13.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.14.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit when turning hard
0.15.0 Nmno slippage - about equivalent to hardest I would turn the carriage
0.23.0 Nmslips
0.24.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.25.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.26.0 Nmno slippage

1.375” diameter steel.


Second set of tests (repeating) cutting at 450rpm with torque wrench on the lead screw


DocTorqueComment
0.01No cutting just carriage lead screw friction Slips
0.01.5 nmNo cutting just carriage lead screw friction - no slippage
0.1”2.0 nmSome slippage but it cuts
0.1”3.0 nmCuts as fast as I can turn it. No slippage
0.2”2.0NmSlips
0.23.0 NmCuts with some slippage
0.24.0 NmCuts. Really cranking hard and it slips some
0.2”5.0NmCuts no slippage
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
I'll answer a few questions that have come up above. I'm still working on the install not done yet. I'm using the 8Nm motor kit.
Package SERVO L 8Nm up to approx. 400 Kg for 528 Euro.
To ensure this would work I tested cuts on the lathe at various depths and feeds by turning a torque wrench on the lead screw and I did not go past 5-6 Nm. I think I posted this already but I can't find it now. Perhaps it was lost in the Christmas crash. Anyway here are the test results again:

Lathe testing - turning lead screw with torque wrench to test various cutting scenarios.

1.375” diameter steel, 460 RPM,


DOC (measuring diameter so half this figure is depth of cut)TorqueResult
0.12.0 Nmslips
0.13.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.14.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit when turning hard
0.15.0 Nmno slippage - about equivalent to hardest I would turn the carriage
0.23.0 Nmslips
0.24.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.25.0 Nmadvances but slips a bit
0.26.0 Nmno slippage

1.375” diameter steel.


Second set of tests (repeating) cutting at 450rpm with torque wrench on the lead screw


DocTorqueComment
0.01No cutting just carriage lead screw friction Slips
0.01.5 nmNo cutting just carriage lead screw friction - no slippage
0.1”2.0 nmSome slippage but it cuts
0.1”3.0 nmCuts as fast as I can turn it. No slippage
0.2”2.0NmSlips
0.23.0 NmCuts with some slippage
0.24.0 NmCuts. Really cranking hard and it slips some
0.2”5.0NmCuts no slippage

I thought I'd read it around the time of the xmas crash could not find it either thanks

Thank you very much sir.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
thanks.

yeah I have to do a deep dive into the manual. I hadn't because til now I just can't get past the metric only issue. But with two lathes I can live with one not having imperial

Or you could go Mr Imperial and Miss Metric like @Brent H!

The more I read about other lathes, the more I love mine. My only beef is the 70rpm minimum. But that will get fixed with a 3ph motor (as soon as I find one) and VFD.
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
Or you could go Mr Imperial and Miss Metric like @Brent H!

The more I read about other lathes, the more I love mine. My only beef is the 70rpm minimum. But that will get fixed with a 3ph motor (as soon as I find one) and VFD.

The last I saw on the Rocketronics website is that they still only have metric software. Now I dont mind profit minded ventures such as this, but the way this product developed without any intention of serving the vast imperial market is rather insulting.

Then they also blame regulators for not being able to ship their product to some EU nations. They claim it costs too much to meet packaging requirements.

If I do proceed with anything, there will be an open source option and both metric and imperial like my current machining controller. My buddy just got new boards today if his UPS notifications from yesterday were correct. Soon they'll be getting populated with the components, under go some testing and be ready to use. Provided I get off my butt and design and print new case components.
 

Dabbler

ersatz engineer
The last I saw on the Rocketronics website is that they still only have metric software. Now I dont mind profit minded ventures such as this, but the way this product developed without any intention of serving the vast imperial market is rather insulting.
As developers, they are free to target any market they choose. They are in Germany and built it for the German market, and have been shipping primarily to Germany and a few to the rest of the EU.

This is a one man shop, who works full time at a certain international manufacturer of electrical equipment, He has built a truly wonderful ELS, and even had the manual professionally translated to English. The ELS is now in English due to popular demand. So you are angry for the want of a Excel-printed table of thread equivalents?
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
As developers, they are free to target any market they choose. They are in Germany and built it for the German market, and have been shipping primarily to Germany and a few to the rest of the EU.

This is a one man shop, who works full time at a certain international manufacturer of electrical equipment, He has built a truly wonderful ELS, and even had the manual professionally translated to English. The ELS is now in English due to popular demand. So you are angry for the want of a Excel-printed table of thread equivalents?

more the lack of thought that results in the need of equivalents charts.
 

gerritv

Gerrit
Not sure how to say this politely but for the umpteenth time: imperial mode is in testing for ELS pro.
Given that only Canada and US are using it I too wouldn't have made it a priority. A tiny market Imo.
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
Not sure how to say this politely but for the umpteenth time: imperial mode is in testing for ELS pro.
Given that only Canada and US are using it I too wouldn't have made it a priority. A tiny market Imo.
Not sure how to say this politely but for the umpteenth time: imperial mode is in testing for ELS pro.
Given that only Canada and US are using it I too wouldn't have made it a priority. A tiny market Imo.
I don't know why I'm to blame here, when the vendor has this in bold red text every time I've looked in the last several months::

1679017781417.png


Rocketronics might wish to add that blurb to their ordering page for the pro version that lists an ETA so you are not continually having to correct people's posts?

I have a good reason for saying this is a vital feature for an ELS but I'm trying to avoid causing a political thing that has drawn warning before.
 

PeterT

Ultra Member
Premium Member
for the want of a Excel-printed table of thread equivalents
Are you saying with the current version one could enter for example desired 40 TPI as 0.635mm pitch & it would just go? Or is it menu driven from a selection of available pitches?
 

gerritv

Gerrit
the Rocketronics has no in-built charts. You decide the pitch, you decide the depth of thread. Same with tapers (cones), you enter the ratio. It is one of its many strong points. Leaves you free to invent stuff that is guaranteed incompatible with anything else :)
 

gerritv

Gerrit
I don't know why I'm to blame here, when the vendor has this in bold red text every time I've looked in the last several months::

View attachment 32364


Rocketronics might wish to add that blurb to their ordering page for the pro version that lists an ETA so you are not continually having to correct people's posts?

I have a good reason for saying this is a vital feature for an ELS but I'm trying to avoid causing a political thing that has drawn warning before.
I'm only saying that every thread here on the Rocketronics has mentioned no imperial and on every one I have reminded ppl that imperial is coming soon.
 

Rocketronics

New Member
Hi there, I just found this and wanted to send a few clarifications :)

First: We build the ELS since 11 years now, it started as a hobby project and evolved with the time. As we only served the german hobby "market" we never had reason to use imperial units, as these are, to be honest, a real PITA to work with, sorry for thge rough language, but anyone familiar with Metric can tell you that. So we never considered that, also because it is not as easy as it sounds to show the 4-5 digit numbers on the small display, you get more rounding errors you need to adress etc. And then you want not only "0,2187" but of course you would like to see "7/32".

We started to do serious business with the control 8 years ago, and since then we made several thousand ELS controls, and ship them worldwide now. Our main market is Germany/EU, and a few go to the USA, but only a very few. In fact, we currently hardly can make more, the production takes its time, and we have several other projects running. Also, some parts are very hard to get, and not in high quantities. Microcontroller for example are still very scarce. That's why we never seriously tried to enter the US market, we just don't really have the time for it, it's not just sending a package over, if we really want to sell serious amounts of the control we would need to do a lot more as we do now. Regulations, rules, laws, certification etc. etc.

I would like to mention, that we never received a single ELS back from a customer because of him being dissatisfied. The number of defects in 11 years can also be counted on one hand.

We also clearly state on the website and in the shop that the ELS4 is currently metric only. It does not have tables for threads, as these are quite useless, you often run into a thread not in the table, therefore we made it completely open, you can cut ANY thread with the ELS4, metric of imperial, tapered, multistart etc. as long as it has a pitch you can cut with the given mechanics. Simple.
However, we have the imperial software almost ready, it is being tested at the moment, but there are still a few things I do not like, as the abovementioned missing fractures, which is quite hard to do. In fact we had to change the software completely to have imperial units, that was several weeks of work and testing. And to be honest, I still do not understand why someone would voluntarily want to work with this system, it has so many disadvantages, but that is my opinion :)

So, Imperial is coming soon, we need to iron out a few more wrinkles, then we will post it as beta version which anyone can try. Of course the updates are free, as always.

Another thing:

The last I saw on the Rocketronics website is that they still only have metric software. Now I dont mind profit minded ventures such as this, but the way this product developed without any intention of serving the vast imperial market is rather insulting.

The imperial market is rather small, tbh. Even in the USA the industry uses metric. I would guess that 5% of our customers would use imperial if we had it ready.

"The situation is however not as clear-cut as this. In the United States, for example, the metric system is the predominant system of measure in certain fields such as automobile manufacture even though customary units are used in aircraft manufacture. In the United Kingdom, metric units are required for almost all regulated use of units of measure except for a few specifically exempt areas such as road signs, speedometers and draught beer. Metrication is also all but complete in the Commonwealth countries of Australia, India, New Zealand and South Africa; metrication in Canada has displaced the imperial system in many areas."


Rocketronics might wish to add that blurb to their ordering page for the pro version
It is stated on the ordering page.


Then they also blame regulators for not being able to ship their product to some EU nations. They claim it costs too much to meet packaging requirements.
That is for real, some EU countries have too many hurdles to climb, we simply are not allowed to deliver there without paying a lot of money, in some small countries up to 600 Euro a year plus many more things, that is not worth it. In Poland for example you need a registration number (Pesel) besides that, but you can only get it in Poland, there is no way to get it outside of Poland, I tried and failed. We risk jailtime if we send goods without that number, it's sad, but real. Greece is the same, very expensive, and we need an expensive local legal representative etc. etc. The EU sometimes does some very stupid things. Would you expect they build an integral EU market, and then let every country set up their own rules on packaging? They really did. So we pay our fees in those countries where we send enough packages to make up foir the fees, the rest cannot receive anything from us. We pay several thousand euros per year just for recycling about 150 cartons in EU countries, it's an insane thing, but that's the law.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
So, Imperial is coming soon, we need to iron out a few more wrinkles, then we will post it as beta version which anyone can try. Of course the updates are free, as always.

A quick question, will the imperial update be both imperial and metric or just imperial. In other words, after updating, will the system then give you the choice of either one so you can use it for both?
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
And to be honest, I still do not understand why someone would voluntarily want to work with this system, it has so many disadvantages, but that is my opinion :)

I wouldn’t say it’s voluntary. I’m fine with both systems because that’s just the way it is.

Canada is a metric country but we are right next to the US and our industries are highly intertwined.

If you decide to get into machining as a hobby (never mind as a trade), 90% or more of the used machines will be imperial and probably 70% or more of analog measuring tools like micrometers, dial indicators etc. will be imperial.
 

Dabbler

ersatz engineer
The fun thing is: You can buy an imperial machine, enter the leadscrew pitch in mm and use it in metric mode with the ELS :cool:
I really love your creation. I think it is well thought out and shows an exceptional attention to detail.

I'd really love to work in metric-only. But 80% of what I do is imperial. Taps/dies are more readily available in inperial, and all of our rough stock is in imperial units. It is a very subtle force.

It is also expensive to tool up in both units when electronic metrology was even more costly. My depth micrometer is metric, but I just convert when using it on an imperial project. All my scales (rulers) show both units, etc, etc. When one standard is great, two standards are greater (pain in the ass)...
 
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