Bridgeport Project

[Susquatch]

View attachment 16320

Is this not required then with sealed bearings?

Where does that oiler go on your mill? There is an oiler on my bull gear but it doesn't have a long snout like that. It seems like it only drips oil onto the teeth of the meshed gears and does not supply the bearing.

The H&W videos that I have watched recommend grease instead of oil. So if that is for the bull gear, they say you don't need it anymore.

Elsewhere I saw them say that using grease as per their procedure means oil is no longer required.

Others here have also advocated grease instead of oil.

I dunno. I'll prolly oil the spindle and just use grease for the bull gears.

But frankly, I'd keep in mind that I'm a newbie at all this if I were you. I don't have the experience that others do so I'm forced to choose what makes the most sense to me.

Choices are a good thing. Wise choices are an even better thing!

 

[architect]

The HW Quill Housing Disassembly video talked about not needing this Oil Tube if going with sealed bearings. But after a rewatch I realized he's talking about the spindle bearings, which I will not touch, so the oil tube stays!

Mine is pretty grimmy. Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!

 

[RobinHood]

Now we have arrived at the open vs shielded vs sealed bearing debate. The short answer as to which one to use where is: it depends. There have been volumes written on this topic and the experts (I am not one of them) still can’t agree, because it really does depend on what the application is.

Some words of caution when adding grease: there is an ideal amount for each size bearing. Manufacturers list/have calculators to determine the amount. If too much gets put into it and the excess can not escape, you can get bearing ball skate: the excess grease builds up ahead of the rolling ball and stops it from rolling. This is temperature and speed dependent (for a given grease viscosity). If the balls skate, the bearing will destroy itself in very short order.
The excess grease can build up pressure and blow out the shield / seal - now you are back to a one shield only bearing; just hope the one that blows is on the proper side (ie, not the side where all the dirt comes from).

There is a speed limit for each type of bearing cover: open (no cover) = highest speed; shielded = lower speed; and sealed = lowest speed for a given bearing size and configuration. The speed reductions can be surprisingly large. Check the manufacture’s data sheets.

I think it’s best to leave quality bearings alone when bought new. If the retrofit is from open to shielded, then just install the shielded one. If you are installing OE (1Z or open) then make sure the lubrication schedule is adhered to at a minimum. Over lubing an open bearing is not possible - it just cost you $s in the wasted oil. You can’t do any harm (other than maybe the mess it creates as the oil slings all over the place - been there, done that on the BP). But you have to lubricate.

Rebuilding an old bearing to get a little more life out of it is another story. I just did the bearings on a ‘70s 10hp Italian electric motor. They are 6308 Z (yes, only one Z = one shield). The grease was still in pretty good shape and had not separated. After cleaning and repacking, they were put back in the motor and should be good for another 50 years (assuming the grease I used is as good a quality as the stuff they used back then). The inside of the motor was perfectly clean. Just a bit of rust on the rotor from condensation.

Arn’t bearings a fun topic? They fascinate the hell out of me…

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[RobinHood]

Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!

Try it. Before install - I would do a test to see if the wicking material still does it’s job. If you get drips forming and dropping off, I would call it good. If the material is still gummed up after cleaning, replace the wick and then test.

 

[Susquatch]

The HW Quill Housing Disassembly video talked about not needing this Oil Tube if going with sealed bearings. But after a rewatch I realized he's talking about the spindle bearings, which I will not touch, so the oil tube stays!

Mine is pretty grimmy. Any idea if I can just throw it in the parts washer instead of replacing? It's 44USD for this thing!

View attachment 16324

I would just clean it and reuse. It isn't a part that wears. Interesting that yours has a feed tube. My hartford is just a drill hole in the cover plate.

The video for the Hartford bull gear says to pack with grease and never oil again. Seems to me that Barry doesn't like oiling. Or maybe he knows most users don't oil often enough so grease is a better option for them.

I have trouble with that. But hey, what do I know.

 

[Susquatch]

Now we have arrived at the open vs shielded vs sealed bearing debate. The short answer as to which one to use where is: it depends. There have been volumes written on this topic and the experts (I am not one of them) still can’t agree, because it really does depend on what the application is.

Some words of caution when adding grease: there is an ideal amount for each size bearing. Manufacturers list/have calculators to determine the amount. If too much gets put into it and the excess can not escape, you can get bearing ball skate: the excess grease builds up ahead of the rolling ball and stops it from rolling. This is temperature and speed dependent (for a given grease viscosity). If the balls skate, the bearing will destroy itself in very short order.
The excess grease can build up pressure and blow out the shield / seal - now you are back to a one shield only bearing; just hope the one that blows is on the proper side (ie, not the side where all the dirt comes from).

There is a speed limit for each type of bearing cover: open (no cover) = highest speed; shielded = lower speed; and sealed = lowest speed for a given bearing size and configuration. The speed reductions can be surprisingly large. Check the manufacture’s data sheets.

I think it’s best to leave quality bearings alone when bought new. If the retrofit is from open to shielded, then just install the shielded one. If you are installing OE (1Z or open) then make sure the lubrication schedule is adhered to at a minimum. Over lubing an open bearing is not possible - it just cost you $s in the wasted oil. You can’t do any harm (other than maybe the mess it creates as the oil slings all over the place - been there, done that on the BP). But you have to lubricate.

Rebuilding an old bearing to get a little more life out of it is another story. I just did the bearings on a ‘70s 10hp Italian electric motor. They are 6308 Z (yes, only one Z = one shield). The grease was still in pretty good shape and had not separated. After cleaning and repacking, they were put back in the motor and should be good for another 50 years (assuming the grease I used is as good a quality as the stuff they used back then). The inside of the motor was perfectly clean. Just a bit of rust on the rotor from condensation.

Arn’t bearings a fun topic? They fascinate the hell out of me…

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

What an awesome post!

I'm no bearing expert myself but I do know more than the average bear. I spent several months at one point in my career solving a bearing brinelling problem. For reasons we couldn't understand initially, only vehicles in the Maritimes had the problem. Turned out to be a shipping problem associated with wide gap railway tracks. Constantly pounding the bearings in one place during shipment from the factory to the dealers out east put a tiny wear mark in the race. After a few months in service, the bearings started growling. Go figure.

I have heard of bearing lock as you describe. But I don't think it applies to ball bearings - only roller bearings.

Anyway, from the meaningless perspective of a self professed non-expert I totally agree with your advice and enjoyed your hyjack (which it wasn't IMHO).

 

[RobinHood]

You are probably right that a roller bearing is more susceptible to locking up than a ball bearing just because of its shape.

On the blown shields: my neighbour runs a 60” commercial lawn mower. The OE spindles have 1Z bearings in them with a grease zerk in the middle. According to Walker, a lot of people were over servicing the spindles and blew out one shield. If you were lucky you lost one out of a top bearing - that just makes a mess of the mower deck and the belt can start to slip. If you lose a lower shield, the grass juice will eat that bearing in no time flat. So his bearings were running rough. We replaced the spindles with an upgraded version: it has a relief vent on the opposite side of the zerk. You grease until you see the vent squish out a little worm. No more problems as the relief pressure is set well below what it takes to blow a shield out of a bearing. Walker engineers learned their lesson since most of the failures happened during the warranty period.

So how did they solve the shipping by rail issue? Switch to on the road car carriers?

 

[Susquatch]

You are probably right that a roller bearing is more susceptible to locking up than a ball bearing just because of its shape.

On the blown shields: my neighbour runs a 60” commercial lawn mower. The OE spindles have 1Z bearings in them with a grease zerk in the middle. According to Walker, a lot of people were over servicing the spindles and blew out one shield. If you were lucky you lost one out of a top bearing - that just makes a mess of the mower deck and the belt can start to slip. If you lose a lower shield, the grass juice will eat that bearing in no time flat. So his bearings were running rough. We replaced the spindles with an upgraded version: it has a relief vent on the opposite side of the zerk. You grease until you see the vent squish out a little worm. No more problems as the relief pressure is set well below what it takes to blow a shield out of a bearing. Walker engineers learned their lesson since most of the failures happened during the warranty period.

So how did they solve the shipping by rail issue? Switch to on the road car carriers?

Good stuff. Gotta see proof it's working! My neighbour greases everything till it gobs out onto the ground! Too funny! I like the little worm though .....

The temporary rail car problem solution was easy - loosen the tie downs and let the cars move more. They were all too tight anyway. It's a human thing - if tight is good, tighter must be better. The goons in the rail yards all use cheater bars.

Fastener Torque is a funny thing. Hardly anyone does it right. In the factory we often use calibrated tools and double checks on critical fasteners. Ever wonder why there is a gob of paint on the wheel nuts of a new car? It's to prove they were double checked. No paint - wasn't checked.

The most common reason for automotive recall campaigns is improper torque - either too tight or too loose.

Service manuals for most machinery almost always include torque charts. Almost nobody ever uses them.

Same neighbour doesn't use a torque wrench on his tractor hub nuts. Supposed to be 800 ft lbs. His version is to put an 8ft pipe on a 4ft Johnson Bar and give er all you got. My eyes popped out of my head. I measured it. My torque gauge quit at 1200......

I showed him. He still uses the pipe. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.....

 

[John Conroy]

I wouldn't remove any oil ports. Even with sealed spindle bearings you still need oil where the quill moves up-down in the head casting and on the splines where the quill moves up-down through the drive pulley hub.

 

[historicalarms]

Ha Ha I never used a torque wrench until it was mandated by the Canadian Transport Board that wheel lug nuts had to be torqued to a specific value and could be roadside enforced at inspections. I never used a torque wrench on thousands of bolts fixing farm equipment or heavy equipment for that mater....my old man didn,t know what a torque wrench was i don,t think....but stuff held together just fine

 

[Susquatch]

Hey @architect, I spotted these on Amazon and ordered a set.

JH Williams WS-483 3-Piece...

They are the same as the ones used in the H&W videos. Obviously, I don't need them for my spindle nose piece anymore, but I have needed a high quality set like these for years and they will be needed again in the future. Strike while the iron is hot.

 

[architect]

I saw those and they are quite spendy! My neighbor helped me rig up a tool with a 1/4 plate I had. I haven't had a chance to use it as I need to first figure out how to pull the metal sleeves and slide the spindle back into the housing to get leverage. I don't think I need pin spanners other than the nosing. On the other hand, I'm still tempted to buy a Posi Lock puller in case I need one in the future. How did you gear bearings out?

 

[Susquatch]

I saw those and they are quite spendy! My neighbor helped me rig up a tool with a 1/4 plate I had. I haven't had a chance to use it as I need to first figure out how to pull the metal sleeves and slide the spindle back into the housing to get leverage. I don't think I need pin spanners other than the nosing. On the other hand, I'm still tempted to buy a Posi Lock puller in case I need one in the future. How did you gear bearings out?

Ya, they are spendy for sure. But I can use them on lots of jobs and I don't want to be making a custom spanner for every job I do. The spindle nose will probably come off a dozen times or more in order to replace the R8 key so I didn't mind making a unique tool especially for that.

I thought I already posted how the bearings came out on here. In fact, I invited you to borrow the special collet tool I made if you need it. Basically, with the right tool it was a total piece of cake. But maybe I don't understand your question?

 

[architect]

Mine is getting the bearings off the vari-disc assembly which requires a very thin and curved jaw tip to access. You had a different situation/bearing what I saw in your posts, but maybe I missed it! Will look again once I get back from my week of backcountry. Hopefully it won't be too humid in the garage then!

 

[Susquatch]

Someplace, someone mentioned that tightening the spindle nose keeper too much could distort the quill enough to bind on the spindle housing.

Sure enough, it just happened to me. Prolly a damn good thing somebody mentioned that. It would have taken me a while to figure out what happened if I wasn't looking for it.......

So, I'll be drilling out a recess in the cap threads for the keeper screw to fit into so that a lot of torque is not required.

Many many thanks to whoever it was who pointed that out!

 

[Susquatch]

Mine is getting the bearings off the vari-disc assembly which requires a very thin and curved jaw tip to access. You had a different situation/bearing what I saw in your posts, but maybe I missed it! Will look again once I get back from my week of backcountry. Hopefully it won't be too humid in the garage then!

Don't know how I missed your note. I saw it after I posted about the keeper screw on the nose.

Yes, you are right. My issue was getting the bearing for the small back gear out of the bottom housing of my step pulley Hartford. I didn't take apart the vari disk assembly on my Bridgeport at all. It seems to be working just fine.

I don't think I can help you with the vari disk bearing. I don't know enough about it.

There is always a way to do it. The challenge is figuring it out. But one thing is fairly certain. It will be simple once you have done it....... LOL!

 

[architect]

I've been away garage work for a while as I have been busy with work and gigs. Also hate the cold garage

But the border restrictions almost all gone Im finally able to cross over to Buffalo to grab this 240v motor for direct swap. Picked up new bearings and other parts from H&W as well. Prices went up 20% since looking at them 6 months ago

 

[Brent H]

Great stuff @architect - getting closer to rock and Roll!!!