I'm a complete TIG hack but 1/2 stickout on a #7 cup seems like a lot. I use the rule of 3x the electrode diameter. So a 1/8" electrode get 3/8" stickout.
See pg. 7 of the attached.
Tig settings
- Thread starter Doggggboy
- Start date
See pg. 7 of the attached.
140mower
Don
..... and now we know why the girls giggle when you go by....
Sorry, it's in my DNA.....
1/2 stickout is pretty far without a gas lens on any cup. The norm in a general application is 1/4-3/8 with the appropriate size cup, you can get out pretty far in a corner or a deep grove without running into problems.
There are a lot of variables for stickout, and tungsten diameter isnt really one of them, its more based on cup size, gas flow and calmness of the area, not sure how ck worldwide came up with the 3xdia thing, how does that work with .040...... .120 stickout, not a chance
Butt welding 20g isnt that easy, its going to take some practice, there isnt a magic setting that will cure this
i had a minute so i went out and gave it a go, i only had galv 20g, sanded off the galv, .040 tungsten, machine at 25, using about 1/2 pedal. 1/16 filler, its tricky, i suspect 1/16 tungsten would be a little more difficult. It may be possible to get a nicer looking weld with a bit of practice, but i honestly wouldnt hope for much more than this appearance wise, so much penetration i cant even tell wich side was the weld side and wich was the burn through, and this is on new steel, i would expect old automotive sheet metal to be more difficult given it will most likely not be of uniform thickness
what im getting at is, dont be to hard on yourself, what your attempting isnt easy
There are a lot of variables for stickout, and tungsten diameter isnt really one of them, its more based on cup size, gas flow and calmness of the area, not sure how ck worldwide came up with the 3xdia thing, how does that work with .040...... .120 stickout, not a chance
Butt welding 20g isnt that easy, its going to take some practice, there isnt a magic setting that will cure this
i had a minute so i went out and gave it a go, i only had galv 20g, sanded off the galv, .040 tungsten, machine at 25, using about 1/2 pedal. 1/16 filler, its tricky, i suspect 1/16 tungsten would be a little more difficult. It may be possible to get a nicer looking weld with a bit of practice, but i honestly wouldnt hope for much more than this appearance wise, so much penetration i cant even tell wich side was the weld side and wich was the burn through, and this is on new steel, i would expect old automotive sheet metal to be more difficult given it will most likely not be of uniform thickness
what im getting at is, dont be to hard on yourself, what your attempting isnt easy
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
And heeeeere we go.......... and now we know why the girls giggle when you go by....
Sorry, it's in my DNA.....
140mower
Don
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Damn it.
But I did have some success for an inch or two today.
I tried to follow most of the suggestions. Clean with acetone first, then new flap disk, then acetone again. Good grind on the tungsten , I think. 21amps and 12cfh. Tried some with filler and some without. Seemed to have better luck with no filler as long as I didn't get in a rush. Had good penetration and looks sturdy enough to hold the Bondo. I'm sure the effect of all the steps is cumulative but this time I ground the edges of the coupons as well and I think that made a big difference. I realized that I had been plasma cutting them to size and that that leaves a very dirty edge. Which I hadn't been grinding. Or cleaning.
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Wow!. Thanks for this, Ryan.
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
And now you know why I sent you the octopus..... and now we know why the girls giggle when you go by....
Sorry, it's in my DNA.....
But no one else knows WTH we're talking about.
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12cfh is pretty low, if someone farts in your direction your going to end up with shielding problems
are you trying to weave? it looks like it in the photo, i wouldnt, it looks like you are able to hold it together, but you are going to end up with much more shrinkage, and a more difficult time given your heating the material up so much more. you can for sure get 100% penetration without any kind of weave
an inch at a time is all you need, you will warp the heck out of the panel if you try for more than that, and it will just get progressively more difficult as the material heats up. if you are trying to weld a long seam all in one go (not recommended) the technique would be to back step it (im not sure if thats what your doing or not), weld your inch, and then weld the next inch behind your last weld, ie your stop will end up at the start of the first weld
i think your doing ok, i would try a bit more gas, in the 15-20 range, and forget about the weave
are you trying to weave? it looks like it in the photo, i wouldnt, it looks like you are able to hold it together, but you are going to end up with much more shrinkage, and a more difficult time given your heating the material up so much more. you can for sure get 100% penetration without any kind of weave
an inch at a time is all you need, you will warp the heck out of the panel if you try for more than that, and it will just get progressively more difficult as the material heats up. if you are trying to weld a long seam all in one go (not recommended) the technique would be to back step it (im not sure if thats what your doing or not), weld your inch, and then weld the next inch behind your last weld, ie your stop will end up at the start of the first weld
i think your doing ok, i would try a bit more gas, in the 15-20 range, and forget about the weave
Former Member
Guest
I'm going to recommend The Fabricator Series (TFS) and the Weld Monger as IMHO give the best advice as to technique and application.
TFS is very specific and does show his errors (btw he's is the one the influenced my choice of the Primeweld TIG225X prior to him being a dealer).
TFS is very specific and does show his errors (btw he's is the one the influenced my choice of the Primeweld TIG225X prior to him being a dealer).
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Ok. I'll up the gas.
I was weaving. Partly because it seemed to be helping me to not blow through the panel gap and partly because I have a hard time seeing the line I'm supposed to follow. I figure I have a better chance of hitting it if I'm painting with a wider brush
.Surprisingly this test piece did the least warping out of all of the others I've turned into cheese graters. The coupons I'm using are about 8 inches long and I think the longest run I've done without a blowout is around an inch. Honestly I'm not too concerned about warping at this point. Mostly I'm just trying to get an inch of unperforated weld and get the hang of it I fully intend to do a lot of stitching once I start working on the panels.
I'll try to stay away from the weave.
So. Many. Variables.
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Awesome. Just subbed to both.
Thanks.
3/4 to an inch is good, that sheet metal is getting pretty hot by an inch, its just begging to blow out. There are lots of instances with thinner material where you can only get so much and you have to stop to let it cool, weld in a new spot for a bit, hop back, perfectly normal
if you get a hole, jam filler in there, cools it down, fills up the hole, you're going to need that skill. The cuts on your body work wont be perfect, you will need to be able to deal with gaps and fill holes when it comes to the real thing
Keep at it though! you are doing good
if you get a hole, jam filler in there, cools it down, fills up the hole, you're going to need that skill. The cuts on your body work wont be perfect, you will need to be able to deal with gaps and fill holes when it comes to the real thing
Keep at it though! you are doing good
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Wax On. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off.
Former Member
Guest
With thin material short is better, in some cases dots every inch or two and takes a awhile but little or no heat build up. Done correctly creates the effect of stacked dimes without the heat marks or distortion . I'm still working on it (breath, relax, it takes time, breath some more, wait, not so much, wait......)
Just a heads up be careful with chlorinated brake cleanee and welding. I was in little shop 30x30 at best at a mill used to work at and a millwright cleaned off one of the welding tables with brake clean chlorinated stuff and 3 of use got gased pretty good 2 guys had to go to hospital over night for breathing issues and I was left coughing foam for almost a week. I wasn't hit as hard as the other 2 as they were inside welding all day I was in and out of shop installing and fabing stuff. (Figured I would add bit more context as to not scare people the amount of brake clean used wasn't like a squirt or 2 is was few cans to clean up hydraulic mess.)
"CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON SOLVENTS The vapors of these solvents are a concern in welding and cutting because the heat and ultraviolet radiation from the arc will decompose the vapors and form highly toxic and irritating phosgene gas."
Anyways back to topic at hand. Fit up is gonna play a big part in your success with light gauge material make it as perfect as possible any gap will hinder you. if the seam isn't gonna be seen on both sides I would recommend using a crimping tool to add a lip to the body panel much easier to weld in a lap joint configuration.
https://a.co/d/5nTYmob tool I'm referring too.
I've done some thin wall stainless in the past and a gas lens with larger cup is your friend worth the investment maybe run you 100$ for couple with cups/lens from Praxair even cheaper off Amazon. #10 or number #12 would be good size.
Another tip if you have thumb switch or peddle is to use it like tack welder more or less but that's the slowest method and pinholes will probly haunt you.
Better method that you have been playing with is no filler method or little to no filler anyways. You want to start you arc and fuse the 2 pieces together then add a dip of filler at the start then just drag the puddle. Moving fast as possible well managing a tight arc length a fast pulse can help with this but you will still want to move fast and smoothly just be careful not to over do the stitches maybe 1" at most as warpage will be an issue. But you should be able to hammer out in conjunction with heat shrinking the panel with propane torch or tig if careful. There is some good YouTube videos on the topic.
As another tip for tungsten stick out too tell if it's too far and not getting enough gas coverage is the tungsten will get a blueish black oxide on it but can also be a post flow issue isn't set long enough aswell if your running tungsten hot.
Also I would recommend 2% thoriated as my #1 choice then or 2% ceriated or 1.5% lanthanated as my #2. The thoriated holds the sharpest edge for longest before splintering with use.
The advice that @phaxtris and @Proxule offer is good advice I tried not to repeat to heavy as they beat me to the punch
Your easiest method which was mentioned is still probly .23 hard wire "ER70 S6" but if you plan on doing may hammer and dolly type metal finishing work it doesn't form well compared to Tig
But from what Ive seen your on right track don't worry too much on adding filler as there isn't much to fill with light gauge material I don't feel it adds much benefit I think you will get more benefits having good gas coverage or maybe using chilling bar if possible.
@phaxtris I would try same pieces using the dip then drag method it will surprise you to how little filler you need. I would do up test piece but we're I'm working now doesn't have a Tig as we just rent most of our equipment for turnaround or maintenance.
Example of fit up your looking for and what a dragged weld looks like on stainless anyways. steel wouldnt be as pink will just be boring and grey. From a picture off google. Looks like #8 or #10 cup 1/8 tung and .50 Sani pipe SS they are also using a spinner
Edited.
Forgot to mention I would try sticking with 3/32 or even 1/8 tungsten it helps dull the power of arc and let's you put less heat into part as heat is your enemy even at low amps. You Can use the small stuff too but may find it easier to keep from blowing threw and if your machine only goes down to 25 can kinda help get but more range out of machine amp wise
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hovercraft57
Member
When welding cold rolled mild steel sheet metal you must use tig filler wire reason being the sheet metal has not been killed so it has oxygen in it ,,, the wire for tig is triple de-oxidized and also has a deoxidizer in it ,,, no wire you will get porosity and brittle welds ,,,, do not use brake cleaner it creates some nasty chemical when welded over ,,, as a matter don't use any liquids ,, much on weld.com is bullshit the guy is selling stuff ,,,, acetone according to him should be used to clean prior to tig welding ,,, that stuff is very flammable and you don't need it in a welding area ,, forget it is there once and you have a fire plus it is a ketone which is not a health product ,,, I have tig welded 2 aluminum boats together from scratch and never used any cleaner hell on one boat I used red tungsten without a problem email if you continue to have problem hovercraft57@gmail.com
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
Just to wrap this thread up..
I give up.
I appreciate all the tips and advice from you guys but for this project, I'm going to have to go back to mig welding the panels.
My lack of depth perception seems to be a deal killer in terms of not dipping the tungsten every 2 seconds.
In everyday life being blind in one eye is a mild inconvenience. for everything but up close work.
For fine detailed work with small parts, it is a huge pain in the ass. Tig welding seems to fit into that category, at least for me.
I'll try it again at some point with something other than thin sheet metal.
I give up.
I appreciate all the tips and advice from you guys but for this project, I'm going to have to go back to mig welding the panels.
My lack of depth perception seems to be a deal killer in terms of not dipping the tungsten every 2 seconds.
In everyday life being blind in one eye is a mild inconvenience. for everything but up close work.
For fine detailed work with small parts, it is a huge pain in the ass. Tig welding seems to fit into that category, at least for me.
I'll try it again at some point with something other than thin sheet metal.
Well we share the blind in one eye handicap. I read your note and my thoughts about getting a TIG welder died. One less thing to buy.
One eye is an inconvenience in other everyday things too. Try playing tennis, or pickleball with no depth perception.
But the good news is that we are both still working metal. I like to say, "never let what you can't do get in the way of doing what you can". We can still do a lot even with just one eye. Nuff to keep me happy anyway.