The Taylor monoplane saga - propeller hub build & other things

[Perry]

Ryan, a little off topic but reading this made me think of an item you might like to add to your maintenance checks.

The metal contactor on the distributor rotor is held in with a potting compound. This can fatigue.

When I was a kid I had a V.W. powered dune buggy. Died on me out in the hills. Long walk home.



Cheers, P.

 

[phaxtris]

yes the rotor. cap, rotor, condenser and points are all on the maintenance list, that's why i wanted to run electronic, none of that to worry about, set it and forget it.

 

[Susquatch]

that's why i wanted to run electronic, none of that to worry about, set it and forget it.

Do you know why your electronic ignition didn't work?

Maybe I can help. One of my very first jobs was to bring electronic ignition to the market for my employer. Those were fun times.

 

[phaxtris]

Do you know why your electronic ignition didn't work?

Maybe I can help. One of my very first jobs was to bring electronic ignition to the market for my employer. Those were fun times.

It does work, the engine will run on it and the timing is rock solid when it does run. What i think the problem is has to do with how i have to start it, remember, no starter, no flywheel (aside from the propeller), so when i throw it over, it only goes over 1 compression stroke, and at who knows what actual rpm. I think what is happening because the trigger lobe is square off (i believe it is a vr pickup, not a hall) and so large (relatively), with how slowly the lobe goes past the pickup sometimes it triggers at the front of the lobe, and sometimes at the back, or maybe in the middle. The trigger lobes do not look like the triangular shaped ones in a gm HEI distributor, i think that may make it less accurate at very low speed.

The last two times i played with it, i could get it to fire, but not start, and when it did fire, not at the same time every time, and sometimes it would fire 45 degrees off. The propeller is set parallel with the ground at TDC, sometimes, after throwing it over, and a second or two later it would puff....with the propeller vertical to the ground, roughly 45 crankshaft degrees away from tdc. So i believe there is defiantly some inconsistency with how and when it triggers, it would do this with #1 pickup, #2, or both of them on.

The second time i tried to re-time it, thinking maybe the timing went out some how from when it magically started up for me, depending on how fast or slow i pulled the prop would change when the plug fired, wildly, like 20 degrees.

I never measured the size of the trigger wheel or lobes, but i would estimate the wheel may be 20mm in diameter, and the lobes are probably 3mm across, so that makes them 17ish degrees of the lobe...and distributor runs at half speed right, so that makes the lobes 34 degrees of crankshaft revolution ? or would it be the other way, and be 8.5 degrees? either way that is a lot.

The last time it ran i had it timed 28 all in (thats fun, aircraft at full throttle, standing behind the prop with a timing light adjusting the distributor), and i did confirm the distributor to advance 25 degrees, on the bench, and running the engine at idle speed (showing 3 degrees of static), i can for sure start it by hand with 6 degrees of static (btdc), so it will defiantly start with 3btdc

 

[Susquatch]

What i think the problem is has to do with how i have to start it, remember, no starter, no flywheel (aside from the propeller), so when i throw it over, it only goes over 1 compression stroke, and at who knows what actual rpm.

In general, I think you are right.

Hall effect sensing was chosen primarily for its reliability. But it requires a good cranking speed to generate a reliable signal. It prolly isn't the best system to use with a hand crank like you have to use.

Is it a canned ignition system? If so, do they have an optical (shutters) option? They are sensitive to dirt and dust, but hall might not be better in your case.

Do you know if the system itself is digital? If so, the processor might think the engine isn't running when it doesn't sense another pulse within a given time frame. If it isn't digital, what triggers the coil dwell current?

 

[phaxtris]

In general, I think you are right.

Hall effect sensing was chosen primarily for its reliability. But it requires a good cranking speed to generate a reliable signal. It prolly isn't the best system to use with a hand crank like you have to use.

Is it a canned ignition system? If so, do they have an optical (shutters) option? They are sensitive to dirt and dust, but hall might not be better in your case.

Do you know if the system itself is digital? If so, the processor might think the engine isn't running when it doesn't sense another pulse within a given time frame. If it isn't digital, what triggers the coil dwell current?

there is no optical shutter option, plenty of hall/vr options, i went with that fancy distributor because of the easily adjustable advance curve and amount, i thought it could be a problem but i wasn't sure, and no one knew, i thought it was worth a try, im not crying over it, i knew it was a risk.

system isn't digital in the sense it has a processor, its just a dumb ignitor, wich does fire the coil, even if i slowly rotate the prop...just not at a consistent timing

There is a guy who runs GM hei's triggered by the standard 3 wire hall effect sensors, his trigger wheel places the magnets on about a 6" disc using a waste spark setup. he runs it at tdc to hand start, and then has a choke cable pull the whole assembly with halls mounted to 28 advance. He says it starts great, and i have no reason to believe it doesn't. I have been doing some experimenting with that, but i cant get the hall to trigger the hei module, i hook the hall up to the hall, and when the module is powered on the hall grounds out (led on the back partially lights), its possible i have a bad module though, it was a cheap amazon unit.

 

[PeterT]

I'm no expert, in fact I'm interpolating CDI systems I've seen on spark ignition models. The initial setup is based on X degrees relative to TDC of #1 cylinder. Then of course correct firing order to remaining respective ignition wires. But the brain senses RPM based on the trigger hits & adjusts ADV/RET curve on that basis. Any chance you set the distributer for perceived better running conditions at idle or some other RPPM when it was running, but somehow deviated from what it thinks is relative to TDC & therefore timing adversely effects other RPM ranges?

 

[phaxtris]

there is no computer, the pickup acts in replacement of the points, just a simple trigger

 

[Susquatch]

its possible i have a bad module though, it was a cheap amazon unit.

It's always possible. But it runs good once started, so not likely.

Something to be aware of that might or might not be important. Most Electronic ignitions can't really advance timing. Instead, they actually delay spark from the previous one. So even though you think it is firing 30 deg in advance, it's actually delaying from the previous spark. That might not apply to you since you said you have both vacuum and mechanical advance. These are signs that it is a true advance system vs delay. The trouble with delayed timing is that it is a longer timing to keep syncronized. This might be what you call erratic.

I agree that TDC or even later is usually good for starting as long as fuel mixtures are good, if not then you often need advance to stop those muffler pops (backfiring) during starts.

Bowden cable systems were popular when I was a kid too. I had forgotten about them.....

 

[phaxtris]

It's always possible. But it runs good once started, so not likely.

Something to be aware of that might or might not be important. Most Electronic ignitions can't really advance timing. Instead, they actually delay spark from the previous one. So even though you think it is firing 30 deg in advance, it's actually delaying from the previous spark. That might not apply to you since you said you have both vacuum and mechanical advance. These are signs that it is a true advance system vs delay. The trouble with delayed timing is that it is a longer timing to keep syncronized. This might be what you call erratic.

I agree that TDC or even later is usually good for starting as long as fuel mixtures are good, if not then you often need advance to stop those muffler pops (backfiring) during starts.

Bowden cable systems were popular when I was a kid too. I had forgotten about them.....

The module i was referring to is not the one in the distributor, that is the test module im playing with to see if i can trigger with a standard hall effect

the fancy distributor has a mechanical advance, the pickup is only a pickup, just like a points, the mechanical advance advances the trigger lob/wheel/shaft, what ever you call it, the pickup itself never advances, the trigger does

 

[phaxtris]

Finally made it out for a test flight, plane starts up amazing on the oldschool 009 points distributor, 3deg advance seems to work well. The new camera position is pretty cool, especially on take off, landings, and turns.

But, something is not playing nicely, i dont think the coil from the electronic setup is working well with the points, missing pretty good under load, felt like a fowled plug on the ground, not so much in the air (checked the plugs, all good) i will have to take the cap off and inspect the points, and replace the coil with a more standard higher impedance coil. hopefully that will cure that issue.

I was in "get this thing back on the ground" mode, so a very tight circuit and the somewhat hard carrier landing.

 

[DavidR8]

Whoa! That's amazing Ryan. Must feel fantastic to have reached such a huge milestone!

 

[Susquatch]

Very cool! Almost looks a bit like a miniature spitfire!

That new camera position is amazing! When you zoomed out it could see your wing tip! How the hell did you do that?

 

[DavidR8]

Very cool! Almost looks a bit like a miniature spitfire!

That new camera position is amazing! When you zoomed out it could see your wing tip! How the hell did you do that?

I'll bet an Insta360 camera.

 

[phaxtris]

@DavidR8 is correct, an insta360, they have super dooper wide angle lens's on either side of the camera body.

The camera software is able to stich the two videos together and chop out the body and whatever is directly inline...Camera is mounted about 3ft past the leading edge on a selfie stick, you can see that little bit of green, thats part of the usb power pack that is taped the to selfie stick that happens to not be exactly in line I guess

I had power for both cameras for a flight to Drumheller and back, then possibly further south had the test flight went well, oh well, tomorrow ill go back out there, swap the coil, check things, and maybe i can make a longer video

the new camera position is much cooler, now i have to figure out how to stich video from both cameras together, as well as the audio, i was able to sort out a way to record headset audio on the camera that is mounted to the roof.

 

[Chicken lights]

Hard pass. I know it's an old pilots trick to give passengers control and they think it's funny. I have zero idea how to navigate in the air and I'm ok with that. I can't scuba dive or surf worth a damn either and that's ok too 😀

 

[phaxtris]

Hard pass. I know it's an old pilots trick to give passengers control and they think it's funny. I have zero idea how to navigate in the air and I'm ok with that. I can't scuba dive or surf worth a damn either and that's ok too 😀

I always give passengers control in non critical stages of flight with good altitude (assuming they want it), it helps if they are having any air sickness, and its more fun for them. You show them a few things, gentle turns, how to hold altitude and heading, then monitor, they get to tell their friends they flew an airplane, you get an auto pilot and a passenger that doesn't puke, win win

 

[Chicken lights]

I always give passengers control in non critical stages of flight with good altitude (assuming they want it), it helps if they are having any air sickness, and its more fun for them. You show them a few things, gentle turns, how to hold altitude and heading, then monitor, they get to tell their friends they flew an airplane, you get an auto pilot and a passenger that doesn't puke, win win

Yes, the no puking was very important, for some reason. I was probably asked more about puking concerns before being given the oars to fly the thing unasked

I'm only guessing but the importance put on no puking means that's worse than crashing

 

[DavidR8]

I did a familiarization flight out of the Calgary airport ages ago and absolutely loved it. Had the controls about a minute after we left the ground and till final approach. Best experience ever.

 

[phaxtris]

Yes, the no puking was very important, for some reason. I was probably asked more about puking concerns before being given the oars to fly the thing unasked

I'm only guessing but the importance put on no puking means that's worse than crashing

The chance of a non-pilot passenger puking is much higher than the chance of crashing, especially on a bumpy day. It takes a bit to get used to the bumps.

giving them the chance to fly is like a fam flight that @DavidR8 took, just without the cost (for them at least), they might get hooked and you'll end up with another pilot friend