Rust is the Enemy

[Tom Kitta]

Imagine he drills 10ft away and water squirts out like a fountain!

What could have happened is combination of things, not just one, for example, drain was getting clogged more and more, it rained causing water saturation. Both together are now causing the issue. Or maybe even more things, such as some extra dirt etc.

 

[Chicken lights]

How much rain have you had recently @Chicken lights ? We had 2.5 inches on Monday. The outside water was up 2/3 of our basement windows. It was like looking outside into an aquarium. Fortunately I noticed how much rain was coming down and saw the windowz early enough to be able to use a shop vac to keep up with what came through the window seals.

If your ground is as saturated as ours is right now, the water has no place to go. I'd bet the gravel under your shop floor is filled with water.

We’ve had a few good rains, leading to me thinking soggy water table

I would’ve thought a week or two would’ve corrected things, however

There was some light water spillage 20 feet away, by a crack in the concrete, that was dry by morning

Just one of those things that makes you ponder about during the day

 

[Chicken lights]

Imagine he drills 10ft away and water squirts out like a fountain!

What could have happened is combination of things, not just one, for example, drain was getting clogged more and more, it rained causing water saturation. Both together are now causing the issue. Or maybe even more things, such as some extra dirt etc.

I was curious if gravel could get “clogged” with fine sediment, and am not discounting that

 

[Former Member]

Depending on how old the house is, these are clay pipes and they collapse unfortunately. And yes it can happen suddenly.

Solution....start digging.

 

[Susquatch]

I was curious if gravel could get “clogged” with fine sediment, and am not discounting that

I have seen clogged gravel but it's rare and it requires a LOT of very slow water flow over a long period of time. Usually it is only localized.

But you have water coming out of your drain. It had to come from someplace to flow like that. So unless you have a steady water flow INTO the drain that is getting blocked off, your gravel is not plugged.

 

[Susquatch]

Hey, @Chicken lights,

Feel free to call me - even tonight. I know what water problems like that are like. It strikes me that a phone call might be better than posts on a forum thread. I'll help if I can.

PM me if you misplaced my phone number.

 

[Former Member]

If you are having back flow this is hydraulic pressure, which means you water table has been raised. This can be local ie high rain fall or global gradual table rise. High rain fall is like a 1:100 year events so no worries, gradual increase means you have other issues that need investigation.

My field of study oh so many years ago.

 

[6.5 Fan]

Good luck with the water issues. We have the opposite problem, cracks in the soil that you can lose tools in if you drop them while fixing in the field.

 

[Susquatch]

Good luck with the water issues. We have the opposite problem, cracks in the soil that you can lose tools in if you drop them while fixing in the field.

I have a similar problem. Huge giant cracks from the dry spell. Then I got all that rain. I slogged out to look at what was happening. You could see vortices all over the place where the rain water was pouring down the cracks. I think most of the water went down the cracks to the tile to the ditches. The cracks are still there and the mud is gone so you can already walk out there. But you need bring climbing gear just in case you fall into a cravass...... I can only hope some water stayed......

 

[Chicken lights]

I have seen clogged gravel but it's rare and it requires a LOT of very slow water flow over a long period of time. Usually it is only localized.

But you have water coming out of your drain. It had to come from someplace to flow like that. So unless you have a steady water flow INTO the drain that is getting blocked off, your gravel is not plugged.

The dehumidifier fed the drain/filled the drain/then water just dumped on the floor

Hey, @Chicken lights,

Feel free to call me - even tonight. I know what water problems like that are like. It strikes me that a phone call might be better than posts on a forum thread. I'll help if I can.

PM me if you misplaced my phone number.

It’s too late- some of us still work for a living
*ducks for cover*

But thank you! I’ll mess with it this weekend, the water in the drain was mostly gone earlier today

 

[Susquatch]

The dehumidifier fed the drain/filled the drain/then water just dumped on the floor

I see. The Dehumidifier water should not have any fines in it and should not plug anything. But it might be disolving the stone a bit which could result in calcification.

My barn Dehumidifier has been going full tilt most of the summer. It usually fills a 5 gal pail once a day. That's a lot of water to dump into the gravel under a concrete floor.

I dump mine manually. If I couldn't do that I'd run a hose or pipe outdoors.

It’s too late- some of us still work for a living
*ducks for cover*

But thank you! I’ll mess with it this weekend, the water in the drain was mostly gone earlier today

Ya, I'd be ducking if I were you too!

But feel free to call. You have my number.

 

[jcdammeyer]

I'll add my two cents here. My shop is in the carport, closed in and insulated with some vapor barrier. Some of the walls are concrete as is the floor. These are not insulated; yet. As it was a car port the perimeter drain tile (hollow concrete pipe sections) were not around the carport. The house was built in 1967.

We bought it in 1997 and a few years ago started seeing water coming up through the basement floor drain. Because we're on a hill the underground water level would come up against the basement wall and not flow through the now plugged up perimeter drain which BTW, was connected to the floor drain in the basement by that same wall. Water ran like a river through the shop diagonally from mid January to the end of February. The odd thing is with just a 1500W fan heater on the floor near the lathe and mill I had no rust problems.

Long story short, we had new plastic perimeter drain done, ($20K) which included now the outside of the car port. The next winter instead of water the shop was dry. The water level in the floor drain remained below the concrete level instead of 6" above. (I had a plastic pipe inserted and calked).

And that winter although I ran the same fan heater everything started rusting. Steel that had been rust free for 20 years now was in awful shape. The Gecko Stepper Driver that had been functional for more than 10 years developed fuzz on the power connections, shorted and destroyed itself. However it was now inside the CNC electrical cabinet rather than hanging on the wall so more likely to attract condensation.

I bought a PA refurbished dehumidifier and also ran the fan heater and was able to stop the rusting the next winter. This year I plan on insulating the concrete walls in the shop and I'm considering different options for sealing the floor to prevent moisture from coming in that way.

And I have a small Raspberry PiZeroW connected to a DHT-22 RH/Temperature sensor broadcasting a web page.

The trick has been to keep the metal about 5 degrees warmer than the dew point. Don't care what the RH is since it's derived from the dew point and the temperature (hence 'relative')

And in the last few days I've been running the metal bandsaw with coolant which has often splashed onto the floor so the dehumidifier is fill the bucket more often but nothing is rusting.

IMHO, the key thing is to keep the items that can rust at a temperature above the dew point to prevent condensation from forming on them.

 

[Former Member]

One of the things I learned was use a cloth drop sheet over metal machinery. When the temperature changes so that metal becomes a moisture attractant....the cloth acts like a moisture soak greatly reducing the condensation on the metal.

 

[jcdammeyer]

One of the things I learned was use a cloth drop sheet over metal machinery. When the temperature changes so that metal becomes a moisture attractant....the cloth acts like a moisture soak greatly reducing the condensation on the metal.

My SouthBend Heavy 10L arrived before I closed in the carport. My solution was to use the same technique I used in our sailboat. A 2' foot long section of 4" aluminum duct sitting on three legs about 3" above the plywood base. On the plywood under this pipe was a 60W light bulb socket so the bulb was inside the pipe. I positioned this under the lathe and then draped a blanket and then tarp over the lathe.

The bulb warmed the air in the pipe and the air rose up drawing in new air from underneath. The lathe never rusted. Effectively this heater kept the metal warmer than the dew point.

 

[Chicken lights]

I don't remember if I asked here or somewhere else- my truck saddle boxes are sealed. They make a lot of condensation. I've asked people about adding a vent before, and the consensus at the time was a small hose wouldn't move enough air to help.

Friend of mine was looking for some straps last year, so I gave him some of my retired ones. He was complaining how rusty they were, so the subject got back up.

Would adding a small hose, one near the bottom and one near the top, be enough to let them breathe? (I don't want a hole, that would let in rain or road spray)

I can add pictures if needed

 

[jorogi]

Shop tips from an old guy, well maybe not too old Sus, his last bit is about rust prevention in the shop. Well worth a watch.

 

[Susquatch]

Would adding a small hose, one near the bottom and one near the top, be enough to let them breathe? (I don't want a hole, that would let in rain or road spray)

That's not an easy problem to solve Chicken.

What happens in that situation goes like this.

During the day, the box heats up in the sun and the inside air expands. Expanded air escapes through small, large, deliberate, and accidental holes in the cabinet. As night falls, and the cabinet cools, high humidity air gets sucked in through these same holes. As the temp continues to fall, the cabinet develops dew on the inside surfaces and contents. This dew collects as water in the cabinet. The next day, the cabinet takes another breath and the cycle repeats collecting even more interior moisture. Warm temperatures inside a semi-sealed cabinet actually accelerate the rate of corrosion. There is little that can be done to prevent the water from accumulating other than good drainage or completely sealing it. Just thank your lucky stars that the cabinet and it's contents are not damaged by ice expansion when it freezes.

Breather holes really won't help and might even make it worse. What you need is circulation (big holes or fans) and/or direct rust protection. I can safely recommend fluid film to prevent rust or more expensive solutions like Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor by WD40. Dessicants also work well in sealed containers, but are almost useless in unsealed spaces. I suppose you could also put things in sealed heavy duty plastic Ziploc bags along with oil and or dissicant packs though.

I keep the tool box on my tractor well packed with oil rags and routinely spray the box contents down with rust prevention oils. It's still not great. An outside box subjected to temperature cycles is a HD High Performance Rust Machine in high humidity environments.

Those lucky SOBs out west who don't know what dew is don't know what we are talking about.

 

[jorogi]

Those lucky SOBs out west who don't know what dew is don't know what we are talking about.

Yup, nothing like living in a rain forest next to a 10^100000 cubic kilometer salt water puddle. Lucky easteners.

 

[Stuart Samuel]

Shop tips from an old guy, well maybe not too old Sus, his last bit is about rust prevention in the shop. Well worth a watch.

NEW DAN GELBART?!?

 

[ChazzC]

That's not an easy problem to solve Chicken.

What happens in that situation goes like this.

During the day, the box heats up in the sun and the inside air expands. Expanded air escapes through small, large, deliberate, and accidental holes in the cabinet. As night falls, and the cabinet cools, high humidity air gets sucked in through these same holes. As the temp continues to fall, the cabinet develops dew on the inside surfaces and contents. This dew collects as water in the cabinet. The next day, the cabinet takes another breath and the cycle repeats collecting even more interior moisture. Warm temperatures inside a semi-sealed cabinet actually accelerate the rate of corrosion. There is little that can be done to prevent the water from accumulating other than good drainage or completely sealing it. Just thank your lucky stars that the cabinet and it's contents are not damaged by ice expansion when it freezes.

Breather holes really won't help and might even make it worse. What you need is circulation (big holes or fans) and/or direct rust protection. I can safely recommend fluid film to prevent rust or more expensive solutions like Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor by WD40. Dessicants also work well in sealed containers, but are almost useless in unsealed spaces. I suppose you could also put things in sealed heavy duty plastic Ziploc bags along with oil and or dissicant packs though.

I keep the tool box on my tractor well packed with oil rags and routinely spray the box contents down with rust prevention oils. It's still not great. An outside box subjected to temperature cycles is a HD High Performance Rust Machine in high humidity environments.

Those lucky SOBs out west who don't know what dew is don't know what we are talking about.

At one of the food processing facilities I worked in, the Plant Engineer always had holes drilled in the bottom of electrical enclosures (and he was a EE!). He also had a baffle plate inside the bottom of each enclosure, about a half inch above the bottom of the box. The theory was that one way or another water would get inside the box (during washdown, due to temperature changes, whatever) and the holes would let the water drain out.

Richard – this may be worth trying: the baffle would keep road spray out, there wouldn't be any holes in the top and any water that doesn't drain out may be evaporated during the day. All of this assumes that it isn't Winter.