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Need help with drill spindle!
- Thread starter DH930
- Start date
I did a little experiment over the last couple of days, sorry no pictures. I used a piece of .625 rod, knurled it to rough up the surface and then coated it with JB Weld as a build up. The knurl added about .002 to the overall diameter and then there was another .010 of JB. I turned the JB down to .630 and it seemed to be pretty solid and may be worth a try. A fine thread pass may work better as a rough up since the knurl didn't leave a real rough surface.
Anyone know if Devcon is any stronger than JB?
Was spray welding mentioned? I watched Abom spray welding, that might be another option if anyone has the equipment
Anyone know if Devcon is any stronger than JB?
Was spray welding mentioned? I watched Abom spray welding, that might be another option if anyone has the equipment
I've got the spindle components in my shop now. Don't want to jinx it but its proceeding well. Pics are in the camera.
I got it mounted between centers & did a cursory runout down the lentth. Not too bad but will revisit this again. I think the center dimples are influencing the readings, maybe by some of the end hammering because its out max 0.004" but the high its relatively constant all the down the length vs a bow (as though the centers were off slightly).
I've got the slightly trumpeted enlarged end dealt with on the fluted end, the bearing get past it now & slide free to their homes. Just working on the similarly enlarged chuck seat end now. I'm convinced that was his biggest runout contributer seen on the chuck. You can feel the enlarged end make contact with the chuck seat at some point of entry & then it hinges on this high point. So its highly unlikely to be seating by the taper.
The other thing I found is the shaft is a bit oblonged in bearing area. Not quite sure if its like elliptical or I'm picking up a slight flat section. Knurling could work. The lower bearing is seated right adjacent to a step, so not sure if my scissor (clamp style) knurl arm can clear this to make a complete pattern on the seat area. Ideally it would be nice to have excess material bonded on the shaft without caring about OD so that it can be turned down a) to become circular b) correct dimension. Ideally without any permanent alteration to the shaft. That's a few steps away & I have some ideas to test on scrap, but anyways heading in the right direction.
I got it mounted between centers & did a cursory runout down the lentth. Not too bad but will revisit this again. I think the center dimples are influencing the readings, maybe by some of the end hammering because its out max 0.004" but the high its relatively constant all the down the length vs a bow (as though the centers were off slightly).
I've got the slightly trumpeted enlarged end dealt with on the fluted end, the bearing get past it now & slide free to their homes. Just working on the similarly enlarged chuck seat end now. I'm convinced that was his biggest runout contributer seen on the chuck. You can feel the enlarged end make contact with the chuck seat at some point of entry & then it hinges on this high point. So its highly unlikely to be seating by the taper.
The other thing I found is the shaft is a bit oblonged in bearing area. Not quite sure if its like elliptical or I'm picking up a slight flat section. Knurling could work. The lower bearing is seated right adjacent to a step, so not sure if my scissor (clamp style) knurl arm can clear this to make a complete pattern on the seat area. Ideally it would be nice to have excess material bonded on the shaft without caring about OD so that it can be turned down a) to become circular b) correct dimension. Ideally without any permanent alteration to the shaft. That's a few steps away & I have some ideas to test on scrap, but anyways heading in the right direction.
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I still haven't tried the spray weld I'm a little leary of warping the shaft, lately i've been working on my bathroom with a new toilet that needed a sub floor that needed new waste pipes so I can lay the new tiles! Im near the bottom of the slide now the new pipes are in on to the tiles.
Johnwa
Ultra Member
I’m back in town if you want some of my steel shim material.
If the bearing area is reasonably round the 0.002 shim would give you 0.624 OD. The shim would be a nice slip fit between the bearing and shaft. Loctite would be added after assembly. Capillary action would pull it in and lock everything into place. Loctite 641 is recommended for that purpose.
If the bearing area is reasonably round the 0.002 shim would give you 0.624 OD. The shim would be a nice slip fit between the bearing and shaft. Loctite would be added after assembly. Capillary action would pull it in and lock everything into place. Loctite 641 is recommended for that purpose.
DH930
Member
Thanks John. I will leave this to Peter. Peter is the quarterback for this project now. If he needs the steel shims I will come by and pick it up from you. Thanks again!
Thanks John. If its not destructive to your shim, can you wrap it on something like 5/8 stock & just give me a feel description of how much it resists conforming?
Reason I ask is I have some steel, happens to be 0.005" so too thick for this application. But it is significantly stiffer than the brass of same 0.005" thickness. I was able to pre curl the brass so it was already 90% conformed to the diameter but I thought I might have even more difficulty keeping he steel from self-debonding under its own spring force so to speak. But I'm not sure what my steel stuff was, seems more like feeler gauge stock (stiff).
Tape wrapping the shim seemed like the logical easy method to radially clamp it so it bonds to the shaft. Or at least stays put so the bearing can slide over it without disturbing it.
Another option might be pushing the shim in from the side if it was an overall slip fit but I think it might be a bit of gooey finger juggling act because other parts of teh asssembly come immediately after that. Kind of hard to explain without pictures but the top bearing is a bit floaty in position until the spacer tube & quill body come into the picture & the whole assembly then aligned.
Reason I ask is I have some steel, happens to be 0.005" so too thick for this application. But it is significantly stiffer than the brass of same 0.005" thickness. I was able to pre curl the brass so it was already 90% conformed to the diameter but I thought I might have even more difficulty keeping he steel from self-debonding under its own spring force so to speak. But I'm not sure what my steel stuff was, seems more like feeler gauge stock (stiff).
Tape wrapping the shim seemed like the logical easy method to radially clamp it so it bonds to the shaft. Or at least stays put so the bearing can slide over it without disturbing it.
Another option might be pushing the shim in from the side if it was an overall slip fit but I think it might be a bit of gooey finger juggling act because other parts of teh asssembly come immediately after that. Kind of hard to explain without pictures but the top bearing is a bit floaty in position until the spacer tube & quill body come into the picture & the whole assembly then aligned.
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Some progress pictures. I put the spindle between centers & just wanted to get an overall feel for what we were dealing with. I saw about 0.004" max runout but as I progressed down the length in steps I noticed it was basically the same amount of deflection & same clock position of shaft. So I think (hope) the centers were influencing the reading. Because both ends were hammered on a bit, this could have easily explained things. I'll revisit this but so far so good.
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Issue 1 was the easiest to deal with. The spline end was mushroom capped a bit from some tappety-taps. Dai agreed that could be taken down with no adverse effect to the rest of the assembly. You can see the upturn with light & straight edge. I masked off about 0.5" away & used that as a protection guide, first stoning, eventually just easier in the lathe. Really it could be chamfered but anyways bearings go on now without resistance.
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Issue 2 is the chuck side tapered arbor. His chuck is brand new but I could immediately envision what was happening. A similar mushroom cap end profile, so the chuck basically hinges on this high point at a certain amount of insertion. I think when he assumed it was seated, it was just stuck at some odd angle & could not get proper contact with the taper. I chucked the spindle in my lathe & measured runout at different steps. It was ~ 0.002" which is pretty darn good for an elderly machine. (Yes this is my 3-jaw but it magically dials in under 0.001" on a gage pin if I mount it in a specific orientation. Bison Woot-woot! LOL).
But here I wanted to be extra careful not to pooch what I assumed to be 90% good seating area. The uplifted end was maybe .005-.010" high & irregular but kind of hard to tell how much inboard of that may have been influenced (meaning bulged or bent or distorted). I taped off on side of my fine file to act as a non-contact strip & then just carefully started to take down the lip using the blue as guide.
But here I wanted to be extra careful not to pooch what I assumed to be 90% good seating area. The uplifted end was maybe .005-.010" high & irregular but kind of hard to tell how much inboard of that may have been influenced (meaning bulged or bent or distorted). I taped off on side of my fine file to act as a non-contact strip & then just carefully started to take down the lip using the blue as guide.
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At a certain point I started Sharpie coloring the surface & gently inserting the chuck, give it a slight rotation & then look for rub. Some of the body was chowdered up a bit. I'm not concerned by the small negative gouges but there was just a bit of cleanup required on the surface itself with positive burrs. Just careful stoning but not much at all. Took some TLC but now a nice socket fit.
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Then I noticed the chuck had a few scrapes inside its taper, probably from the original assembly where he noticed the bad runout. I was reluctant to use lapping compound but when I did my engine liners I remembered how long it took to make 0.0002" go away so I decided #600 wasn't going to do anything bad with some gentle hand turns. It was a nice even matte finish which cleaned up nice & now the chuck felt really solid.
Now to the test. Sad face warning. I gripped a pin & it was running out ~ 0.010". The jaws looked ok. I tried different diameter pins, tried different clock positions of chuck, same number. I removed the chuck & re-read the taper. Now its under 0.002" closer to 0.001". That part seems fine. Hmmmm
Now to the test. Sad face warning. I gripped a pin & it was running out ~ 0.010". The jaws looked ok. I tried different diameter pins, tried different clock positions of chuck, same number. I removed the chuck & re-read the taper. Now its under 0.002" closer to 0.001". That part seems fine. Hmmmm
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Then I reversed the chuck with the pin gripped & saw the same 0.010" runout. So my conclusion right now is the chuck seat has the correct taper but is out. I tried the same reorientation & the high is always in the same clock position. It says Jacobs but... Dai we need to discuss options. I couldn't tell the taper 33 maybe? It would be nice if we had a known good chuck to just plop on. I've had this myself buying a brand name dud, it happens. Idont want to say this with 100% certainty but seems to be pointing to this. The good news is the spindle is in great shape as far as I can tell.
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Now that the bearings are able to go in position I started to get a feel for the shim business. Here is what I observed. The bearings have a bit of wiggle but didnt strike me as horrible. The lower one was maybe 1mm forth & back out at the edge. Not steady as you would prefer, but that bearing gets butted up against a ledge on the spindle so wont wiggle anyways. (I know that doesnt yield concentricity though). The upper bearing fits a bit tighter.
RH pic - here I can just squeeze the corner of a 0.001" shim stock in between inner race & shaft but not another one on the other side. I don't have a ton of experience here but the quill body is so meaty & has bearing seats on either side... I'm wondering if this is in the range of retaining Loctite? My thought is when Dai saw the wacky runout on his assembly trial it was 99% attributable to the misfit chuck end & he likely assumed the bearing fit was the culprit? I'm going to dry install the components & see spindle play just rotating the shaft & DTI measuring the seat (with quill body held in my vise or something). What do you guys think?
RH pic - here I can just squeeze the corner of a 0.001" shim stock in between inner race & shaft but not another one on the other side. I don't have a ton of experience here but the quill body is so meaty & has bearing seats on either side... I'm wondering if this is in the range of retaining Loctite? My thought is when Dai saw the wacky runout on his assembly trial it was 99% attributable to the misfit chuck end & he likely assumed the bearing fit was the culprit? I'm going to dry install the components & see spindle play just rotating the shaft & DTI measuring the seat (with quill body held in my vise or something). What do you guys think?
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The dark blue is just Dykem layout blue so I can see the contrast of the end metal being removed. I was anal about preserving the good surface so not even rubbing off the Dykem with the tape protection. The light blue & black is Sharpie felt pen, it picks up & highlights any rub-off when the surfaces are getting close to correct. I have Prussian blue too but in this application its easy to get false reads because its kind of greasy smeary. Maybe just me but I think its better suited to larger areas & with just a little bit of contact rub-off like you see on flat surfaces & granite plates etc.
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DH930
Member
My goodness Peter, you have done so much, and the time you have taken to documenting this project is fantastic. Thank you so much!
As for the (bad) chuck, That chuck is a new old stock which was spec for the drill originally. Is there a way to fix that 0.010" runout? Or, perhaps we should find a more modern chuck that have the same mounting feature. I'm not married to that chuck at all. I don't know what option is out there for me. Perhaps someone on here may have some ideas to contribute.
As for the bearings mounting issue, if loctite is the best solution at the end of the day, then we will do just that. I want to reserve that method to last resort because if I have to disassemble the drill again later, the loctite method maybe difficult to remove the bearings.
Thanks again Peter for your efforts so far in this project!