Ya like I mentioned somewhere above bronze and aluminum combination set off the Loctite in my engine head unexpectedly fast vs steel on steel. But here I am talking brass shim and steel shaft, seems like the glue is offstandish to brass. I’ll check my different glue recipie tonight & report back
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Need help with drill spindle!
- Thread starter DH930
- Start date
So here are some pictures to ponder. My second attempt using red 'permanent' Loctite and also #680 Loctite, both with primer/promoter resulted in the exact same thing. The adhesive is cured 100% hard on the 1018 steel but the brass shim is like a natural releasing agent. Just pops off when the tape is removed. I've never really tried this before but certainly wasn't expecting this.
Brass is about 56% copper + 38% zinc. Bronze is about 85% copper 10% tin (both vary by alloy). Maybe its the zinc? All I know is C544 bronze Loctites very aggressively in aluminum. Kind of caught me off guard compared to working time steel on steel. Either 'brass' shim stock is something funky which I doubt or there is something about brass. Who here has Loctited brass?
Brass is about 56% copper + 38% zinc. Bronze is about 85% copper 10% tin (both vary by alloy). Maybe its the zinc? All I know is C544 bronze Loctites very aggressively in aluminum. Kind of caught me off guard compared to working time steel on steel. Either 'brass' shim stock is something funky which I doubt or there is something about brass. Who here has Loctited brass?
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DH930
Member
Ideally, the shaft would be remake with larger OD to take the new bearings. The tail end, however, must follow exactly to the original shape and OD because this is the critical integration to the spindle pulley. I just thought that this is way too much for me to be asking for help here. If anyone wants to take on this challenge, I will be all in for sure. LOL
If I have the machine to do this, I would be all over it.
DH930
Member
The shaft is 17.5" long. The head is pressed on to the shaft where quill sits so that part can be removed and then re-pressed onto the new shaft. The chuck end of the shaft is tapered to receive the chuck.
DH930
Member
Fascinating Peter. Would it be possible to use crazy glue?
I think spray well have huge potential here. If we do that and then machine it down on the lathe to the .625" diameter so that it will take on the new bearings.
Crazy glue is CA (cyanoacrylate) which is a close cousin of Loctite. It 'should' work but that's what I said about Loctite haha. I'm pretty sure there is an adhesive out there, people glue brass to wood & other substrates. I used to use rubberized toughened CA for hard to bond materials but its expired. I have some high end double stick film & arsenal of epoxies too. I'll do some more messing around. If it wasn't for this unexpected road bump I was hoping to show a pretty picture 0.005" brass turned down to fractional thickness... BUT STUCK TO THE STEEL! lol
Brent H
Ultra Member
one additional solution:
Swap the bearings out for 6003-2RS C3 fit bearings and shrink fit on two sleeves and then turn the shrink fits to 17 mm OD. Might involve boring out the bearing spacer so it goes over the 17 mm. I was looking to see if they have a 19 mm bearing ID with 35 mm OD and they do not, it would have been a much easier install if the two bearings had different ID's.
Making a new shaft may be easier?
Swap the bearings out for 6003-2RS C3 fit bearings and shrink fit on two sleeves and then turn the shrink fits to 17 mm OD. Might involve boring out the bearing spacer so it goes over the 17 mm. I was looking to see if they have a 19 mm bearing ID with 35 mm OD and they do not, it would have been a much easier install if the two bearings had different ID's.
Making a new shaft may be easier?
Brent, have a look at the little spreadsheet pic I attached in post#19. I think 6003-2RS is a 17mm ID, which is the last row requiring a ~.025" wall thickness collar, however it is accomplished.
Thinking about this some more, it might be easier to bond the (oversize) collars on the spindle & turn it down insitu to 17mm (to fit bearing ID) as opposed to my suggestion of turning a finished collar. In any event both plans would require him buying 17x35mm bearings. He wanted to first try his 0.625"x35mm bearings which he has. But 0.625" requires a 0.0025" annular increase in shaft diameter. And its that fussy thin dimension what got down the shim stock rabbit hole (or primer/paint/coating/whatever... something very thin).
On the weekend I will turn a test collar. If that's straighforward (given very thin wall thickness) then 17x35mm bearings may be the best option.
Last night I tried bonding plain C360 brass to the same steel mandrel. I'll know for certain tonight but it seemed to be setting up 'normally' so I'm starting to suspect something is odd abut brass shim stock.
Thinking about this some more, it might be easier to bond the (oversize) collars on the spindle & turn it down insitu to 17mm (to fit bearing ID) as opposed to my suggestion of turning a finished collar. In any event both plans would require him buying 17x35mm bearings. He wanted to first try his 0.625"x35mm bearings which he has. But 0.625" requires a 0.0025" annular increase in shaft diameter. And its that fussy thin dimension what got down the shim stock rabbit hole (or primer/paint/coating/whatever... something very thin).
On the weekend I will turn a test collar. If that's straighforward (given very thin wall thickness) then 17x35mm bearings may be the best option.
Last night I tried bonding plain C360 brass to the same steel mandrel. I'll know for certain tonight but it seemed to be setting up 'normally' so I'm starting to suspect something is odd abut brass shim stock.
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DH930
Member
I'm not concerned with buying new bearings or cost for having a new shaft recreated. My concern with 17x35mm bearings is that there is a sleeve that goes between the two bearings and this sleeve goes inside the quill. The sleeve ID is 0.625" and OD is 0.75". It is this sleeve that drive out the second bearing when you pound on the quill during disassembly. With the bearings 17mm, the sleeve ID would have to open up a bit so that it can slip over the location where the second bearing goes. Fixing one opens up another problem that have to be addressed. Although the inner sleeve is an easy fix really.
Brent H
Ultra Member
@DH930 it would probably be easiest, most accurate etc to make a new shaft to the over diameter and allow you the use of standard bearings. If the original shaft is a straight 0.620 diameter you can purchase say a 24" piece of higher tolerance cold rolled or something like 4140 in a 0.625" size and then it would be a matter of just adding the splines and the taper for the chuck. Perhaps one of the guys in Calgary could do the job? The splines can be done with a regular end mill or a slitting saw cutter of the correct width on the mill. The shaft being only 17.5" long should be able to fit a few of the mills the guys have
Yes, that's why I was asking those questions about the sleeve. Sketches show 2 configurations. v1 is with the band same nominal width as the bearing. v2 is a wider band that gives more latitude placing the bearing but now the sleeve would have to be relieved by the same .025" (.050" diameter) so that the ends make contact with the inner bearing race. It would be easy to bore out the sleeve on a lathe, but it might be irreversible to the original bearing size depending on dimensions so you might be 'committed'. I guess I hadn't realized the spacer was used to drive the bearings? I just assumed it was a lightly loaded spacer between the bearings. Making a spacer seems easier than a new spindle but maybe a bit more info required.
- what is the spacer length?
- is it just a loose sliding fit on the shaft or somewhat precise?
- any idea what is the diameter of the inner race of the .625" ID bearing you have (purple arrow)
- what is the spacer length?
- is it just a loose sliding fit on the shaft or somewhat precise?
- any idea what is the diameter of the inner race of the .625" ID bearing you have (purple arrow)
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Sorry to plug up the thread with metal bonding trivia but this was bugging me. I tried a scrap of regular C360 brass to the same 1018 steel blank with #680 retainer, no primer. That's the round slug. Also tried regular red LT on 6061 aluminum (corner scraps). This is more like what I was expecting. It held well enough to turn it down thin without failing the adhesive. Its not a lot of force under cutting but it certainly didn't fall off like the brass shim did. Both lifted with an Exacto blade, the #680 held a little firmer.
I think brass doesn't adhere with Loctite the way steel does, but this wasn't a super finish or anything either. If it wasn't for the sleeve issues discussed in previous post, I think bonding steel to steel would otherwise be a viable solution to this kind of problem.
Back to strategy. Turning a .025" wt collar might be feasible, I'll try. But Googling shows that a light spray coat is about .001" thick. So a dust of primer like the manual suggested on the 0.625" ID bearing might be worth a shot given there is no irreversible damage (other than maybe stressing the bearings off again if its a fail). The question is how strong is paint adhesion? Or does it really matter? Maybe the matte finish & retainer is all it needs to stick the inner race to the shaft & its bound to be pretty concentric. I know rattle can primer might not be as permanent as catalyzed auto primer, but I've had to grind off hardware store Tremclad paint on bare steel & it seemed pretty stuck. Maybe a Tremclad (made for metal) primer worth a shot?
I think brass doesn't adhere with Loctite the way steel does, but this wasn't a super finish or anything either. If it wasn't for the sleeve issues discussed in previous post, I think bonding steel to steel would otherwise be a viable solution to this kind of problem.
Back to strategy. Turning a .025" wt collar might be feasible, I'll try. But Googling shows that a light spray coat is about .001" thick. So a dust of primer like the manual suggested on the 0.625" ID bearing might be worth a shot given there is no irreversible damage (other than maybe stressing the bearings off again if its a fail). The question is how strong is paint adhesion? Or does it really matter? Maybe the matte finish & retainer is all it needs to stick the inner race to the shaft & its bound to be pretty concentric. I know rattle can primer might not be as permanent as catalyzed auto primer, but I've had to grind off hardware store Tremclad paint on bare steel & it seemed pretty stuck. Maybe a Tremclad (made for metal) primer worth a shot?
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DH930
Member
This has been a really good discussion so far. I want to thank you everyone gave input into this problem. The primer I had worked well on the bearings but it wasn't as solid as I wanted. If anyone would want to replicate the shaft for me, I can pay up to $200 for the spindle work. Any more than, I will have to use a primer and call it a day. LOL
Thank you Peter for doing all the testings on the loctite and brass shims.
Thank you Peter for doing all the testings on the loctite and brass shims.
DH930
Member
LOL. Powder coat might be the ticket. I don't know how to powder coat. Can you powder coat just only 2 strips on the spindle?
I believe they can mask off areas like regular paint process. They hang the part on a conductive hook, apply a voltage, the powder is sprayed & adheres to the exposed metal. Then the part is baked. That fusing is what gives some of the toughness. But I have no idea what typical thickness is. I think it could be sanded if oversize. But as we discussed before, applying 2 stripes for 2 bearings seems wrong because one bearing will scrape over the other powder coat surface.Where as rattle can is spray one area, apply bearing, spray 2nd area, install sleeve & second bearing... if I understand the assembly correct.
DH930
Member
That is the correct procedure to install the bearings with primer method. If the spindle shaft was to replicated, I would have the section in the two bearings to be at 0.625" in diametre. The rest of the shaft will be identical to original. Then, I will have the in between sleeve to be bored out just a hair so that it can easily slips onto the new shaft. That is the ideal path. Is there anyone on here or out there would like to take on this project? I do not have the tool to do this but if someone would like to take on this challenge, I am willing to pay for your service. I will send the original parts to that person so that everything can be view for replication.
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
@PeterT on the aluminum versus brass thing.... I have successfully used the aluminum found on President's Choice Lasagna (the large size) lids. It is a very consistent .003. If you wrap it around your steel shank and loctite it to the shaft, and then use loctite the bearing on the shaft + aluminum, it will easily fill a .004 gap. 2 rounds will fill .006, etc...