My old mill drill needs some work

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
info. Search for TouchDRO, Yuri’s Toys, DROPros. They can give operational details / signal parameters.

My lathe and mill setups are from TheDROStore.com. I’ve had very good results. I tried the iGaging units, and converting digital calipers, and they suck. My experience was the iGaging units had about 0.002” hysteresis. Worse was their complete lack of shielding, both electrically and mechanically. Unshielded USB cables don’t like electrical pulses when I started my table saw when the iGaging units were powered up. They couldn't survive any sort of electrical noise. Plastic insulation on USB cables don’t handle hot chips very well.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
You are welcome

I don't mean to argue but I believe you are mistaken about imperial/metric scales. Most of the Asian dro's I have seen have a 5 micron resolution, the glass scales inside the linear encoder (scale) need to have graduations at a specific distance to be of any use, given the resolution of being exactly 5 microns and not some round imperial measurement would lead me to believe fhe scales are graduated in metric....making the scales effectively metric

I see! But, I think we are both right. It's great to be Canadian. We can debate such things without getting angry with each other. That's why I prefer to use the word debate instead of argue. And no worries - I take no offense from anyone who takes the time to debate anything with me. As Thomas Edison once said: "Time is our most precious quantity because time is the stuff life is made of." Anyone who is willing to give me a part of their life by debating with me has my total respect and gratitude. Please allow me to return the favour.

By your definition, counting microns makes the unit metric because microns are a metric unit - specifically 1 millionth of a meter. And I agree, if counting a metric unit means that they are metric, then they are metric.

But I believe it's actually much more complicated than that.

Metric is a system that uses a number base of 10. 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13, etc. For distances, each time you get to 10 you bump the preceding digit and each additional number is another magnitude.

However, ALL digital systems use a numbering system that is binary. In fact, it is this binary numbering system that gives it the moniker "digital". In binary, the same sequence as above is 0 1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 1001 1010 1011 1100 1101, etc. Note that decimal 10 is the same as binary 1010.

So, even though the system actually does count a metric unit. It doesn't count those units in metric, it counts them in binary and then the program in the control unit runs a subroutine that converts that binary count into a decimal or SAE number for display purposes.

It might seem odd to go to such crazy lengths to count a metric quantity in binary and then convert it back to metric for display, but that is the essence of how all computers work. It's also what makes humans so amazing and computers so fast.

As an aside, the metric decimal system is great because it is a global standard. But I wish that we humans had skipped our thumbs and only used our fingers when we started counting. Then we would have developed an octal instead of decimal numbering system. Why? Because unlike decimal which requires a rather complicated subroutine to convert binary to decimal, octal is a perfect multiple of binary. The subroutine although still required, becomes very simple.

Anyway, all that is to say that you are certainly right at the most basic level. If the measured quantity is a micron (and it is certainly advertised that way) then I agree that its a metric system at its core.

But I would also make the claim that we are actually both right because the core unit or increment gets lost in the binary digital counting process and only converted from binary to the desired metric or SAE system in the final algorithm that drives the display.

Cool eh!

Edit - on a separate matter, it's also worth noting that 5 microns is just under 2 tenths of a thou. So the 4th digit of an SAE display (tenths) isn't really of any true value other than ensuring that the 3rd digit (thousandth) is more likely to be correct regardless of whether the programmer averaged, rounded, or truncated the result. As @YYCHM has pointed out - other than that, the 4th place is a pretty useless digit.
 
Last edited:

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
info. Search for TouchDRO, Yuri’s Toys, DROPros. They can give operational details / signal parameters.

My lathe and mill setups are from TheDROStore.com. I’ve had very good results. I tried the iGaging units, and converting digital calipers, and they suck. My experience was the iGaging units had about 0.002” hysteresis. Worse was their complete lack of shielding, both electrically and mechanically. Unshielded USB cables don’t like electrical pulses when I started my table saw when the iGaging units were powered up. They couldn't survive any sort of electrical noise. Plastic insulation on USB cables don’t handle hot chips very well.

That's very interesting!

I can easily see why all that would be true. I have to wonder where the thedrostore gets their hardware.

You have certainly convinced me that the Igaging stuff is out.

I have to admit that I laughed right out loud when I read your line about hysteresis. The insult of all insults. As you have noted, digital systems have backlash too!

But now you have me wondering. The latest dro technology is magnetic. I don't know how it works, but it seems to have a fairly long translation system between the parts. I would think that would translate into hysteresis too...... I wonder how much?
 

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
Quick-n-dirty:
iGaging are capacitive sensors, Cheap to build, sensitive to electrical noise and dust. Easy to cut to length. Last a couple of years, and replacing batteries is a pain. I built a Shumatech DRO-350 controller to get around the battery compliant, but overall the capacitive scales are just not ready for prime time.
Glass scales are optical, reading very finely engraved lines on a glass plate. A bit fragile, difficult to cut to length. Immune to electrical interference. When properly installed will survive coolant and dust. The glass scales we have on our big Webster Bennet (54” swing”) boring mill are 30 years old. The scales have outlived a couple of display units.
Mag scales use sensors and a track with alternating N and S magnetic poles. Small, easy to cut to length, coolant proof. Dust-sensitive.I don’t have any experience with these.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Quick-n-dirty:
iGaging are capacitive sensors, Cheap to build, sensitive to electrical noise and dust. Easy to cut to length. Last a couple of years, and replacing batteries is a pain. I built a Shumatech DRO-350 controller to get around the battery compliant, but overall the capacitive scales are just not ready for prime time.
Glass scales are optical, reading very finely engraved lines on a glass plate. A bit fragile, difficult to cut to length. Immune to electrical interference. When properly installed will survive coolant and dust. The glass scales we have on our big Webster Bennet (54” swing”) boring mill are 30 years old. The scales have outlived a couple of display units.
Mag scales use sensors and a track with alternating N and S magnetic poles. Small, easy to cut to length, coolant proof. Dust-sensitive.I don’t have any experience with these.

I see. All new to me for machining, but totally within my external experience with other sensors. I'll guess the new mag stuff is sort of like a magnetic storage disk. The read heads for that are dirt cheap and very reliable. Why not ride on those coat-tails!

Especially great to know this. I'll have to stop using a big magnet to clean out steel chips in my oil pan......
 

Tom O

Ultra Member
The magnetic scales are a lot thinner too so you don’t lose as much travel when mounted on the Y behind the table. I have a BB 601 with DRO Pro’s mill unit that gives me 4 axises although three read outs putting the quill in play accurately.
 

YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
The magnetic scales are a lot thinner too so you don’t lose as much travel when mounted on the Y behind the table. I have a BB 601 with DRO Pro’s mill unit that gives me 4 axises although three read outs putting the quill in play accurately.

A 4 Axis DRO? What the heck do you instrument for the 4th axis? We need a pic of that please.
 
Last edited:

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
My BB CT129 has four readouts. X, Y, Z on column, & quill. Quill DRO came factory stock, X & Y are TheDROStore, Z column is an iGaging unit with remote readout. Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor. My BB B2227 lathe has X & Y using TheDROStore scales & display. Maybe $900 total for all the electronics for both machines. Well worth it.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
My BB CT129 has four readouts. X, Y, Z on column, & quill. Quill DRO came factory stock, X & Y are TheDROStore, Z column is an iGaging unit with remote readout. Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor. My BB B2227 lathe has X & Y using TheDROStore scales & display. Maybe $900 total for all the electronics for both machines. Well worth it.

I have little doubt about the value of a DRO on my Bridgeport & Hartford Mills. And I'm pretty sure I'd like to add it to my lathe too. But I'm not convinced yet about the ROI for my old mill/drill whatever make/model it is. To be honest though, I am also worried that I might like it too much and then want to keep it and get rid of my old beaver drill press instead. The drill press has side bearings in it and I have used it for crude milling before I got the mill/drill. Too many BIG tools with overlapping purposes - some have to go.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Also has a tachometer using an Arduino microcontroller and IR sensor.

This is another thing that I think would be very useful. I have a hand held ir tach that I have used to measure speeds. It is apparent that the charts and readouts on the mills are just wrong. Often out by 50%. I can use the handheld anytime I want, but the convenience of a continuous readout right on the machine is hard to beat.

Too bad the DROs don't already have that feature built in. It would have been easy to do.
 

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
This is another thing that I think would be very useful. I have a hand held ir tach that I have used to measure speeds. It is apparent that the charts and readouts on the mills are just wrong. Often out by 50%. I can use the handheld anytime I want, but the convenience of a continuous readout right on the machine is hard to beat.

Too bad the DROs don't already have that feature built in. It would have been easy to do.

Some of the better DROs have tachometer and touch sensor interfaces. I'm just too cheap to buy them that way. Arduino tach cost maybe $30 to build and kept me amused for a few days hunched over a soldering iron. Electronic edge finder works on every machine. Learning rudimentary Arduino programming reminds me of learning BASIC programming back in the 70s.
 

YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
My solution to instrumenting RPM:p

HZRPM.JPG

I made that chart up using a hand held optical tach.

I think some VFDs let you program reference points in and display RPM rather than HZ.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Hmmmm, Arduino eh....... seems the ocean around your neck of the woods runs deep ........

I did machine and then assembly language programming on microprocessors and Fortran on mainframes before basic arrived. When the CPM operating system made a compiled language like basic possible, it was love at first byte. Sooooo easy! Sooooo friendly! Sooooo much faster than doing raw code.

I have a drawer full of 8748 single chip microcontroller processors gathering dust that would certainly work to do RPM.

I don't suppose you used the Basic Stamp before the Arduino? The programming language used was even more like basic (hence the name) and you can still buy them. I have a few of those in that same drawer. In my opinion, they can't do what an Arduino can, but they are still very cool.

Sadly, you can prolly buy multipurpose tachometers for $15 or so today........ (Insert pouting face here). They are no fun, but if I am honest with myself, I've had more than my share of fun in years gone by.

Regarding that ocean - it's amazing what we have all been part of isn't it? Yet here I am today, repairing a mill, and learning to use it in my 70s. I hope I never stop learning. Life is sooooo wonderful!

For now, I've done exactly what @YYCHM did. Except my chart is handwritten instead of typed and mine has two columns - one for for hi speed and one for low. My priority is getting both my mills working to facilitate a decision on which one to keep. But I'm sure there is a tach in my future somewhere.
 

whydontu

I Tried, It Broke
Premium Member
Hmmmm, Arduino eh....... seems the ocean around your neck of the woods runs deep ........

I did machine and then assembly language programming on microprocessors and Fortran on mainframes before basic arrived. When the CPM operating system made a compiled language like basic possible, it was love at first byte. Sooooo easy! Sooooo friendly! Sooooo much faster than doing raw code.

I have a drawer full of 8748 single chip microcontroller processors gathering dust that would certainly work to do RPM.

I don't suppose you used the Basic Stamp before the Arduino? The programming language used was even more like basic (hence the name) and you can still buy them. I have a few of those in that same drawer. In my opinion, they can't do what an Arduino can, but they are still very cool.

Sadly, you can prolly buy multipurpose tachometers for $15 or so today........ (Insert pouting face here). They are no fun, but if I am honest with myself, I've had more than my share of fun in years gone by.

Regarding that ocean - it's amazing what we have all been part of isn't it? Yet here I am today, repairing a mill, and learning to use it in my 70s. I hope I never stop learning. Life is sooooo wonderful!

For now, I've done exactly what @YYCHM did. Except my chart is handwritten instead of typed and mine has two columns - one for for hi speed and one for low. My priority is getting both my mills working to facilitate a decision on which one to keep. But I'm sure there is a tach in my future somewhere.

My start was a RCA 1802 with 256 bytes of RAM, from a Popular Electronics article. Geez, we’re old.

I never got into using the Basic Stamp stuff, too expensive. An Arduino Nano is $8. I found myself designing protection circuitry for the Arduino devices I built, until I realized the protection chips cost more than the processor.

Buying is no fun, unless you have unlimited funds and just like shopping.

The first thing I did with my original Atlas lathe was to fix a broken rotor shaft on a $0.49 toy helicopter. A couple of hours work and it was good as new and my pre-school son was happy. Perhaps not the most cost-effective use of my time.
 

YYCHM

(Craig)
Premium Member
My start was a RCA 1802 with 256 bytes of RAM, from a Popular Electronics article. Geez, we’re old.

LOL..... Tell me about it. I worked with DG RTOS and RDOS SCADA systems, NOVA and ECLIPSE stuff, as in boot strap loader switches on the front panel and wire wrap peripheral connection board. 512K on a 14" disk pack and 8" floppy disk drives. All assembler programed with the most horrible line/character editor. Move R1 to R3, shift R3 left twice kind of stuff. Spent many a hour studying data scope captures and reverse engineering data protocols.

Must have changed company ownership a dozen times in my 30 years of SCADA programing.

My hat goes off to the micro processor guys though... many a late night a most ungodly cry would come out of the micro dept. Probably because their fix or feature overflowed the chip.
 
Last edited:

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I never got into using the Basic Stamp stuff, too expensive. An Arduino Nano is $8.

Yes, the stamps are expensive today. But back when Parallax got going with the stamp, they were the only game in town with everything already on the board. IMHO, they were cheap for what you got back then. That's why I wondered if you had used them before the Arduino.
 

phaxtris

(Ryan)
Premium Member
Premium Member
I always thought stamps were a way over priced, you could buy a 10$ pic and add 5$ worth of components and have a far more capable controller

However I was also a poor highschool student at the time
 
Top