Machine quality question

[tourmax]

...I’ve also done some research into the machine tool specific supply chain but information is limited since supply chains in China can be quite opaque...

Likely because they have a form of state sponsored slave labor and don't want to let the rest of the world know their "inexpensive" goods they just purchased were made (in part of whole) by forced labor.

It's not all like that, but there's no denying it is going on over there.

I'll stop here because i don't want this to get into a political discussion. I hate politics....

 

[DavidR8]

Careful with those CX601's and same machine from other suppliers. I bought one about a year and a half ago and have stripped 2 of those plastic gears. BUsy Bee is no help as they consider it a "wear" part. Yeah, it only runs the whole bloody machine! They will very graciously sell you another one for 80 bucks though, assuming they ever get them back in stock that is.

I finally fixed mine by finding an Asian seller that offered a replacement steel gear. There's still plastic "strippable" gears in the head to act as a "fuse", but at least you don't have to tear the head apart to get to them....

Fortunately mine is belt drive.

 

[jcdammeyer]

In my experience any company that’s selling stuff to consumers directly is probably not the OEM. They maybe do some aspect of assembly but it’s more likely that they are just a trading company.

I totally agree. I was told by the Bergerda AC Servo motor sales rep that he's frustrated by the companies that buy wholesale from him, re-sell on AliExpress or some other site and then expect him to do all the support. So yes, I've paid more for my motors but the support was directly from the manufacturer.

 

[whydontu]

Likely because they have a form of state sponsored slave labor and don't want to let the rest of the world know their "inexpensive" goods they just purchased were made (in part of whole) by forced labor.

It's not all like that, but there's no denying it is going on over there.

I'll stop here because i don't want this to get into a political discussion. I hate politics....

Without getting into politics, because this is a worldwide problem. About 20 years ago, I worked for a company that sold industrial pipe fittings. One of our customers wanted to do a deep dive into sourcing. We supplied them some high-end pipe flanges from a German manufacturer. They took the flanges, and the mill test reports, and did a CSA-sponsored trace all the way back to the original foundry that cast the first slug of steel that eventually became the flanges. The foundry was in what was then Cambodia, and operated with convict slave labour. In direct contravention of UN rules. But the end product finished flange proudly proclaimed Made In Germany and cost 4x the price of equivalent Chinese flanges. End of story.

 

[tourmax]

Y

Without getting into politics, because this is a worldwide problem. About 20 years ago, I worked for a company that sold industrial pipe fittings. One of our customers wanted to do a deep dive into sourcing. We supplied them some high-end pipe flanges from a German manufacturer. They took the flanges, and the mill test reports, and did a CSA-sponsored trace all the way back to the original foundry that cast the first slug of steel that eventually became the flanges. The foundry was in a then-Cambodia, and operated with convict slave labour. In direct contravention of UN rules. But the end product finished flange proudly proclaimed Made In Germany and cost 4x the price of equivalent Chinese flanges. End of story.

Yep,there's greasy operators all over the world.

I'd like to think it's limited to the "third world" operators, but you'd have to be pretty naive to believe that's the only place it's going on.....

 

[Tom Kitta]

This is a bit of a loaded question as far as machine quality is concerned. Almost all machines are build to a price point - you have some exceptions from long time ago - like say 10EE or similar lathes.

Given this price point build there is a strong co-relation of price to what you get for the size.

Sure there are differences - sometimes stuff is re-badged and price goes up - sometimes you get direct from manufacturer and price goes down.

The 8x16 lathes sometimes are of rather poor quality or so I was told - see Vevor lathes - but on the plus side if you make a video of why your lathe is crap you get like 30% off and total price drops to a $1000 or so for a decent size lathe you have to "fix".

Lathes in sizes smaller than around 14x40 (or 13) new in Canada from usual suspects are usually not well made - when I briefly owned 11 x 26 Modern tools lathe I was shocked how poorly it was made compared to my 1960s Colchester Chipmaster. I just got used to top not quality that in 1960s cost arm and a leg - a bit unfair comparison between almost no expenses spared lathe and a hobbyist machine.

When I sold my BB lathe my main concern was luck of power when making a bit larger parts. The 089 lathe had 1hp motor that when oil was cold would throw a break when started at over 720 rpm. At 720rpm with emery cloth and say 2" part in I could stall the lathe with my hand. Lathe was functional but it had "issues".

The 14x40 lathe class is usually better made than smaller lathes, should not have any power issues and has all power feed functions as well as gearbox. I would look into these. If buying used not Chinese lathe you may get exceptionally well made product. Otherwise smaller lathes need to be in the 10EE or similar class - import to deliver all power functions, gearbox as well as power to plow through work + quality of make.

Decision is with lathe user what they want. I tried to make a mini mill into a "mill" - usually instead of trying to modify small tool for big job it is much, much easier - and cheaper - to just go and buy bigger tool.

 

[Susquatch]

But neither were very deep or being forced. the plastic gear in the H/L location is just a poor design. I can see why they did it though: much cheaper to make a plastic gear for that spot than it would be to make a steel one.

When I was looking for a better mill, I looked at the BB Stuff. The salesman listen to me a bit and then told me flat out to shop elsewhere cuz their plastic drive gear could not handle the kind of work I did.

That salesman may not really know much, but he did me a HUGE favour and caused me to do more research. I found on line kits to replace the plastic with brass and steel. But MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, I found this forum which steered me toward a used Bridgeport and simultaneously added new knowledge, variety, and joy to my life.

 

[Tecnico]

That salesman may not really know much, but he did me a HUGE favour and caused me to do more research.

Good on them! The local BB sales force seem to be wood crafters and aren't that well informed about metal working and to their credit will tell you so.

But MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, I found this forum which steered me toward a used Bridgeport and simultaneously added new knowledge, variety, and joy to my life.

You have captured most of why I did not seriously shop for a mini-mill, even the largest BB offering.

The rest was that I had a small amount of hands on time with a BP and a similar clone so I had an idea of what it meant to use that class of machine.

I also did the sums and came up with similar pricing for a new mini-mill or an experienced professional machine so it was a no-brainer for me once I realized that. Added to that, a professional machine can probably be re-sold for the same price, not so much a bought new mini-mill.

Used mini-mills don't come up or are less common than professional machines in these parts as well, not that professional machines are that common either.......

Bottom line, even though it works for some people I couldn't find a reason for me to buy a mini-mill.

D

 

[jcdammeyer]

Back in September 2006 I paid $3200 for this mill. It was about half the price of a far east knee mill which wouldn't have fit. I didn't want a round column mill and the other stuff from Busy Bee just wasn't attractive.

Are there things wrong with it? You betcha. The lack of an ability to remove backlash on X and Y. The looseness of the driving cone on the spindle splines means it rattles unless under load. Not sure if the bushings were bronze or iron but the play everywhere was pretty bad. The light fixture became rusty and failed. The vise that came with it was way too large for the mill. The cast iron handle square hole for diving the knee fit so loosely that it couldn't be left in place. Just annoying.
Although the table can be rotated since it's the same mechanism as the larger version with the horizontal spindle I've never really used that.
Would I buy it again? Yes. But in reality one that had all the issues taken care of so it would be a precision mill would likely cost at least twice as much then.

 

[tourmax]

....Almost all machines are build to a price point - you have some exceptions from long time ago - like say 10EE or similar lathes...

That's not really a fair comparison. The 10EE is an industrial quality design. It was originally built to run for thousands of hours making high precision parts and needing minimal maintenance.

By comparison, the hobby machines are much lower quality, mainly for price point.

Original list price for a base 10EE in '46 was $4,194. corrected for inflation that's roughly $71G in 2023 dollars. You can by one heck of a nice lathe for that today and clearly far outside the reach of the hobby/benchtop lathes.....they're just not even in the same class, not even close.

It's a similar case for all the older, bigger machine tools; they were made for businesses, not hobbyists....hobbyist level tools back then would have been something like and Atlas 10 or Craftsman 101. Not even in the same league as the larger machines. Quality or purchase price wise. Certainly usable, but not the same quality at all.

My little BB CX601 works fine for what I use it for, once a few minor modifications were made (like replacing the plastic H/L gear) and I got past the shocking lack of support from BB.

That's the biggest turn off about this mill for me; BB was doing anything they possibly could to avoid fixing it, or even sending me parts so I could fix it. Shameful.

You have to know up front that if you buy from BB, you're on your own once the lift-gate drops it in your driveway....

 

[Susquatch]

they're just not even in the same class, not even close. Not comparable at all. It's similar tfor all the older tools; they were made for businesses, not hobbyists....

I suppose I could quibble with your points, but I won't.

But what I will say is that it's a blessing that someone like me can buy a used 10EE today for about the same price as a brand new hobby machine plus/minus a bit, then put some TLC into it, and then grow a smile that even 3 day old poop couldnt wipe off my face!

 

[tourmax]

I suppose I could quibble with your points, but I won't.

But what I will say is that it's a blessing that someone like me can buy a used 10EE today for about the same price as a brand new hobby machine plus/minus a bit, then put some TLC into it, and then grow a smile that even 3 day old poop couldnt wipe off my face!

Quibbling is just an older word for trolling IMHO. Easy to pick out points in an entire post and rip them apart. Be that as it may.

But if you can grab a 10EE, grab it. I wish I could find one or even had the space for one.....I have to make do with my "crappy" little 1957 Atlas 10:

Small and kind of limited, but does the jobs I need it to. Not everyone needs a couple thousand pounds of machine to do what they need to do. Sure would be nice to have something like this in the shop though:

I could sit there with a coffee and just stare at that all day!

 

[Susquatch]

Quibbling is just an older word for trolling IMHO. Easy to pick out points in an entire post and rip them apart. Be that as it may.

Really!!!!

Crap, now I'm a troll.... Stupid me always thought trolls were little critters.....

I'm gunna have to get a new life! Damn kids are taking all the good stuff away, giving it new names, and making me look bad too!

I could sit there with a coffee and just stare at that all day!

Me too!!!!!

 

[PeterT]

But if you can grab a 10EE, grab it. I wish I could find one or even had the space for one.....I have to make do with my "crappy" little 1957 Atlas 10:

There's one with your name on it for only 33K USD. Those machines sure were decked out with features back in the day.

 

[whydontu]

Quibbling is just an older word for trolling IMHO. Easy to pick out points in an entire post and rip them apart. Be that as it may.

But if you can grab a 10EE, grab it. I wish I could find one or even had the space for one.....I have to make do with my "crappy" little 1957 Atlas 10:

View attachment 36604

Small and kind of limited, but does the jobs I need it to. Not everyone needs a couple thousand pounds of machine to do what they need to do. Sure would be nice to have something like this in the shop though:

View attachment 36605

I could sit there with a coffee and just stare at that all day!

I have been graced with a couple of bosses who understand the value of old iron. So have had the joy of using a Graziano SAG14, Dean Smith & Grace 15x36, and post-retirement the current big lathe I can access as needed is a nicely-restored all-hydraulic Monarch 62. For rough stuff we use a new Modern 14x40, but it doesn’t compare to the Monarch.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Let's take a trip back in time for a moment. I bought my Build a metal shop from scrap series by David Gingery directly from Mr. Gingery after I discovered Volume 6 in the local library in 1994. The copyright date is 1980.

If you think about the time it took to construct his charcoal foundry and come up with the Lathe design which was then used to build the drill press and the shaper and the horizontal mill and finally with all those tools, the dividing head and gears to be able to use his Gingery Lathe to cut threads. That book was copyright 1982.

Ar that point in time a genuine Emco Compact 8 was in the $5000 range so building your own lathe was a feasible option if you couldn't find a used one or if you didn't have the money for a used one. This was all well before the Chinese 7x12 lathes showed up for $400.

Once industry moved from manual lathes&mills to Horizontal CNC Turning centers and CNC mills the ability to make inexpensive lathes increased dramatically but not by North American companies. Simply because labour costs in the far east without any corresponding competition matching import duties to level the playing field didn't fit within the American business model.

Now the transition is complete. The need for high end manual lathes just isn't there since labour costs are way to high to do things manually. And as Robert Grauman once said to me, a good machinist can turn out excellent work on a crappy lathe so the need for high end low cost machines for repair shops just doesn't exist.

What comes out of the Far East is more than good enough for 99% of the work.

IMHO.

 

[Susquatch]

What comes out of the Far East is more than good enough for 99% of the work.

I agree. My Taiwanese lathe is better than I am.

Doesn't stop me from wanting more though....

 

[Tom Kitta]

There is a 10EE on FB in US in Indiana or was few days ago for just $3000 USD. So 4000 CAD. My point was that 10EE was NOT build to a price point or it does not seems so - i.e. no expenses were spared and the best of the best was used - price was of no concern.

So one can have a quality used machine for not so high of a price. Sure it may be more than a day drive - but it is available.

There are high end brand new lathes available - but they are not cheap - and they start at sizes 14x40 and above. Most people do not want to spend more than around 10-12k on a new 14x40 lathe so these 25k+ machines are not exactly popular.

 

[Former Member]

The term "Made in XYZ" is required to follow certain constraints being on where the most labour or materials comes from (which obviously leaves a lot of room for interpretation) I had to look into this when I started manufacturing years ago.

I am beginning to see the term "Assembled in xxxx" followed by sourced from materials world wide. Best place to see that is on some of the compressor offering in PA.

 

[Dabbler]

My point was that 10EE was NOT build to a price point or it does not seems so - i.e. no expenses were spared and the best of the best was used - price was of no concern.

Used machines can be had but condition is all over the map and you have to have a good idea what you’re looking at.
Lots of folks here have tons of experience evaluating used lathes.
Calling @Dabbler @Tom Kitta

You can still buy a new 10ee - you have to wait, and have about $130K US to get one. Monarch will rebuild your old one - for a price. A carriage rebuild, including excluding a new casting is between 2K$ and 4k$ - or so I've been told.

Working envelope for a hobby shop is seldom a problem. Quality of the lathe seems to be. There are great value buys in South Bend 9A, to name just one. I don't like what I'm seeing in the sub-10-inch offshore lathes these days. One exception is Precision Matthews, but the site is down right now, so I cannot look it up. But you pay for Taiwanese made, to PM standards.

Most of the 14X40 lathes are plenty good enough. Some will require refitting the poor screws or other components, but usually they will do hobby work just fine. If you don't have the room, you can go for a used Hardinge - the odd time you can get a steal of a deal on a HLV ( I almost got one for 2500$ with chucks).

It really depends on your location and/or if you are willing to buy unseen and ship. For the right lathe, a Colchester Student, for instance, it is a lower risk than some. You might be able to get a forum member to do a complete checkout to lower your risk further.

Enco (or is it EMCO? I keep getting the two names confused) are very well made as well. They come up more often than Hardinge.