Machine quality question

[Brian H]

I have been waffling back and forth about spending time pondering the pros and cons between modifying my existing lathe and simply upgrading to a new lathe.

I have been using my MX-210v 8 x 16 lather for several years now and have spent many hours improving the many issues and have gotten it working quite nicely. Recently I entertained adding and electronic lead screw and power cross-feed unit. In preparation for this I was working at getting better tolerances/smoothness with the carriage and cross-feed. It has been a frustrating process, it seems as I improve in one area another appears.

This is bringing me back to simply spending the money and getting a lathe with the options I would like to have. I spent quite a bit of time comparing Busy bee, craftex, grizzly and precision matthews. Although these are all similar lathes, I couldn't call the the same.

This brings me to my main question, is there a way to determine what quality/precision level the machine is built to as compared to what you have to pay? I know the lathe I purchased was very inexpensive (under $1500) and I did know I was getting a lower quality machine, but that is all that I could afford at the time, and I didn't know what features would be needed/wanted. I am in a position where I am prepared to pay a bit more to get the features I now would like to have in a lathe. The most challenging part of this is to fit it in the space I have available.

I'm not sure if a wish list of features would help with advice, but here are the things I'd like to have:
-ability to single point thread (left and right)
-power cross feed
-ability to adjust feed rate independantly of spindle speed

At this point I have narrowed my selection to two options., Precision Matthews PM-1130 or Grizzly G4003G. These are both very close in price point (nothing in stock at this time though)

I know there are many of you out there that have probably been in a very similar position and I would like this to be my "forever" lathe. So any advice or suggestions (there may be models I have missed comparing) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DavidR8]

I was in the same boat as you recently except it was a mill that I was waffling over.
PM in my opinion is way too expensive with exchange rate and shipping.

I looked at Craftex also but they are very expensive also and shipping was over $600 to my location on Vancouver Island.

In the end I bought a VM32 mill with power feed direct from Weiss.
It is basically a PM30 and is exactly the same as a CX601 because Weiss supplies Busy Bee.

It was drop shipped to my door for $3000 including taxes and shipping. I’m very pleased with it and the entire sales process.

Not suggesting that you buy from them but their machines are the same as Craftex at much reduced rates.

Used machines can be had but condition is all over the map and you have to have a good idea what you’re looking at.
Lots of folks here have tons of experience evaluating used lathes.
Calling @Dabbler @Tom Kitta

 

[Brian H]

I was in the same boat as you recently except it was a mill that I was waffling over.
PM in my opinion is way too expensive with exchange rate and shipping.

I looked at Craftex also but they are very expensive also and shipping was over $600 to my location on Vancouver Island.

In the end I bought a VM32 mill with power feed direct from Weiss.
It is basically a PM30 and is exactly the same as a CX601 because Weiss supplies Busy Bee.

It was drop shipped to my door for $3000 including taxes and shipping. I’m very pleased with it and the entire sales process.

Not suggesting that you buy from them but their machines are the same as Craftex at much reduced rates.

Used machines can be had but condition is all over the map and you have to have a good idea what you’re looking at.
Lots of folks here have tons of experience evaluating used lathes.
Calling @Dabbler @Tom Kitta

Thanks David, I hadn't heard of that brand before. I will investigate this a bit

 

[Tom O]

I look at most things as steppingstones on to bigger or better, you have to decide what you want to do with the machine it’s that personal choice although we all look for that elusive machine you’d introduce to MAMA that takes heavier cuts with machine surfaces made by the Gods!

 

[Brian H]

I look at most things as steppingstones on to bigger or better, you have to decide what you want to do with the machine it’s that personal choice although we all look for that elusive machine you’d introduce to MAMA that takes heavier cuts with machine surfaces made by the Gods!

Thanks for the advice...FYI, I almost spit out my drink reading that last sentence...had to explain it to my wife though...eyeroll...LOL

 

[Susquatch]

It is basically a PM30 and is exactly the same as a CX601 because Weiss supplies Busy Bee.

I followed along on your Weiss Purchase but somehow I missed that little detail. Weiss is the original maker?

It seems that there headquarters are in France and China. But I didn't find anything that says that they are the oem. They do call themselves a distributor though. Perhaps that's what they mean when they say they supply Busy Bee.

It also makes me wonder if they handle distribution for Grizzly too.

Does anyone really know how all this stuff really works?

I know there are many of you out there that have probably been in a very similar position and I would like this to be my "forever" lathe. So any advice or suggestions (there may be models I have missed comparing) would be greatly appreciated.

One of the things you have to accept is none of these folks make a really high quality machine. So there can be significant differences between each machine even for the same make and model. If you happen to get a really good one, you have your forever machine. I feel like that's how I lucked out. But if you happen to get one from the other end of the spectrum then you might not feel the same way.

Even the best quality machines still have the odd lemon, but the odds of that are orders of magnitude lower. Most of us simply can't afford the best so we buy what we can afford and then we hope it meets our needs.

I think that's why so many of our members buy used machines from high quality OEM'S. It's the only way they can afford such a machine.

 

[DavidR8]

I followed along on your Weiss Purchase but somehow I missed that little detail. Weiss is the original maker?

It seems that there headquarters are in France and China. But I didn't find anything that says that they are the oem. They do call themselves a distributor though. Perhaps that's what they mean when they say they supply Busy Bee.

It also makes me wonder if they handle distribution for Grizzly too.

Does anyone really know how all this stuff really works?



One of the things you have to accept is none of these folks make a really high quality machine. So there can be significant differences between each machine even for the same make and model. If you happen to get a really good one, you have your forever machine. I feel like that's how I lucked out. But if you happen to get one from the other end of the spectrum then you might not feel the same way.

Even the best quality machines still have the odd lemon, but the odds of that are orders of magnitude lower. Most of us simply can't afford the best so we buy what we can afford and then we hope it meets our needs.

I think that's why so many of our members buy used machines from high quality OEM'S. It's the only way they can afford such a machine.

Photos of my machine next to a CX601 and emails from the General Manager are pretty much all I have as evidence.
The GM used to do work for Grizzly which is not surprising given that Busy Bee and Grizzly were started by brothers.

 

[Tomc938]

I was in the same boat as you recently except it was a mill that I was waffling over.
PM in my opinion is way too expensive with exchange rate and shipping.

I looked at Craftex also but they are very expensive also and shipping was over $600 to my location on Vancouver Island.

In the end I bought a VM32 mill with power feed direct from Weiss.
It is basically a PM30 and is exactly the same as a CX601 because Weiss supplies Busy Bee.

It was drop shipped to my door for $3000 including taxes and shipping. I’m very pleased with it and the entire sales process.

Not suggesting that you buy from them but their machines are the same as Craftex at much reduced rates.

Used machines can be had but condition is all over the map and you have to have a good idea what you’re looking at.
Lots of folks here have tons of experience evaluating used lathes.
Calling @Dabbler @Tom Kitta

I'm curious: I believe you had a RF-30 mill before this? How would you compare the two? The VM30 looks (from the pictures) significantly smaller. The dovetail on the Z axis would be nice, but how do you think depth of cut and feed rate compares between the two?

 

[DavidR8]

I'm curious: I believe you had a RF-30 mill before this? How would you compare the two? The VM30 looks (from the pictures) significantly smaller. The dovetail on the Z axis would be nice, but how do you think depth of cut and feed rate compares between the two?

I haven’t had enough time with the new mill to make a good comparison. So far though it’s pretty stout. I don’t think it’s going to hog off .200 in a pass but then again neither did my RF30 clone.
Weight-wise it’s lighter by probably 100 lbs.
The dovetail column is fantastic, it has a gas pressure cylinder inside the column so raising and lowering the head is a piece of cake.

 

[Susquatch]

I know there are many of you out there that have probably been in a very similar position and I would like this to be my "forever" lathe. So any advice or suggestions (there may be models I have missed comparing) would be greatly appreciated.

Here is an example of a member chasing his forever lathe. He is doing amazing work, but it is one very long job requiring a ton of skill and even more patience.

Thread 'Hendey T&G Lathe' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/hendey-t-g-lathe.5068/

 

[Former Member]

I upgraded for a Logan 200 to a new BB CX707.


I contemplated buying used but choose new as it either it works and requires little work or back it goes. With used though cost effective almost always has some surprise issues to correct before you are up and running (even if well maintained).

 

[jcdammeyer]

My South Bend Heavy 10L (1942) has worn ways and I've upgraded to a 3 phase motor and VFD. And of course it has my ELS on it. To cut a long ACME lead screw for my Gingery Lathe I ended up tweaking the cross slide in and out along the way to compensate for the wear in the ways.

I was in love with the Wabeco that the late Jack Churchwood owned. He ran my ELS on it too. But when he downsized he sold it to someone in Nanaimo a few years ago for a higher price than the Chinese imports it was more than I could afford at the time. So I still have my South Bend.

If you can afford it these are higher end lathes. Were I to buy new now I might well consider one of these.

WABECO Lathes Made in Germany - Wabeco

WABECO Precision lathes with powerful 1.4 kW or 2.0 kW main drive motors, for hobby model building craft workshop industry and education Made in Germany

www.wabeco-remscheid.de

John

 

[YotaBota]

-ability to adjust feed rate independantly of spindle speed

Are you okay with physically changing gears or would you want a gearbox? Some like changing gears others like a gearbox, it's personal preference.

When I was starting to look for my "forever lathe" I made a features "need" list and a features "want" list then went searching machine specs. Reviews were a big part of my search as well but you need to be careful there because unfortunately you can't always trust the internet (what a shocker). The SM1120 had both lists covered so I waited for one to come to me, took a while but the wait was definitely worth it.

I looked at the machines you mentioned, PM-1130 or Grizzly G4003G, to me these are two different classes of machine and are almost $2k US apart and almost 700lbs difference. Are these the machines you mean to be comparing?

 

[whydontu]

There are a couple of Wabeco machine in Marketplace in Vancouver, a CNC mill and a small manual lathe. At $23k for the pair they are out of my league.

 

[YotaBota]

At $23k for the pair they are out of my league.

Mine as well, ouch

 

[jcdammeyer]

Mine as well, ouch

They aren't cheap if you use Chinese labour costs and poor environmental laws as a base for what a machine should cost. OTOH, if you ask what a Canadian or American company would charge to produce that type of equipment the German stuff is right in line.

 

[tourmax]

Careful with those CX601's and same machine from other suppliers. I bought one about a year and a half ago and have stripped 2 of those plastic gears. BUsy Bee is no help as they consider it a "wear" part. Yeah, it only runs the whole bloody machine! They will very graciously sell you another one for 80 bucks though, assuming they ever get them back in stock that is.

I finally fixed mine by finding an Asian seller that offered a replacement steel gear. There's still plastic "strippable" gears in the head to act as a "fuse", but at least you don't have to tear the head apart to get to them....

 

[historicalarms]

Most of us simply can't afford the best so we buy what we can afford and then we hope it meets our needs.

Or the way I do it, buy the best I can afford and then CHANGE my needs to fit within that machines capabilities....saves those plastic gears Tourmax, my lathe has a plastic "shearpin" gear and never had to replace in 25 yrs....

 

[Rauce]

Does anyone really know how all this stuff really works?

I have some experience with the supply chain in China for a different category of products. I’d imagine there are a lot of similarities. I’ve also done some research into the machine tool specific supply chain but information is limited since supply chains in China can be quite opaque.

From what I can gather two machines looking nearly identical does not not necessarily mean they came from the same place. The castings probably came from the same foundry and things like hardware, handles, motors, circuit boards etc. may also have come from the same suppliers but there’s really no way to know if they were assembled by the same company or to the same level of quality.

In my experience any company that’s selling stuff to consumers directly is probably not the OEM. They maybe do some aspect of assembly but it’s more likely that they are just a trading company.

 

[tourmax]

Or the way I do it, buy the best I can afford and then CHANGE my needs to fit within that machines capabilities....saves those plastic gears Tourmax, my lathe has a plastic "shearpin" gear and never had to replace in 25 yrs....

I'm not using the machine outside it's capabilities. Once was a 5/8's end mill taking a shallow cut and it stripped. the next was a surface fly-cut operation, which does put a bit more strain on the gear from an interrupted cut.

But neither were very deep or being forced. the plastic gear in the H/L location is just a poor design. I can see why they did it though: much cheaper to make a plastic gear for that spot than it would be to make a steel one.

Funny thing is the steel gear was only 50 bucks delivered as opposed to busy bee wanting 80 plus shipping and taxes.