Looking for milling machine purchase help/advice

[J.mac]

Hi All,

I’m hoping you can help me with finding the right mill that suits my needs.

(Sorry for the wall of text but I want to provide as much info as I can so I can hopefully get some helpful advice.)

To start, I want to say that I have zero experience with machining, but I love to learn new skills and have wanted to dive into machining for quite a while now. I have decent CAD experience and have been 3d printing and building my own 3d printers for about 5 years now. I’ve been wood working and doing renovations for much longer, so I am decently knowledgable about mechanical things and working with my hands. I just don’t have any milling experience - though my Youtube history shows I must be an expert by now given how much machining youtube I watch

What am I planning to make with it?

I’m embarrassed to say this, but I’m not 100% sure. I really enjoy the journey of learning new skills, so for the next year or so it’s likely going to be tooling and jigs and so on as learn to get better.

But, longer term, I want to combine these skills with my other hobbies (wood working, software, electronics, CAD, 3d printing) to make pretty much anything I can think of. That’s what I love about all of these hobbies and how they play off each other, each new skill set is a new tool in my tool box to build things. And even though I could probably buy the thing for a fraction of the cost of building it, I love the satisfaction of knowing I built it. And sometimes, not being limited to only the things commercial available makes all the difference. I’m also an expert Yak Shaver, so any given project turns into 52 other side projects. So, I don’t tend to lack for projects.

Enough about me, here’s a list I created for myself to help narrow things down.

Wants:

• A NEW machine that ensures it’s only my own lack of skill that is the issue, and not the machine.
  • I don’t want a used machine as I don’t feel I’m experienced enough to know when issues are caused by me vs the machine itself.
• A machine that is big enough that I don’t regret the purchase in a year once I gain some experience. But, not so big that I can’t fit it (see constraints).
• Materials I want to use include Steel, Brass, Aluminum, and other softer materials. While I don’t see myself doing much Stainless steel, it wouldn’t hurt if it could work with it.
• Most parts are likely to be on the small end, say under 6”x6” but I don’t want such a small machine that that is all I can manage. So, something in the range of a 28”-33” table would be ideal.
• From a cost perspective, I’d like to find a machine local to me (Burlington, Ontario), say within the GTA. But, I’m willing to spend the delivery cost if the machine is leaps above what is available locally (thinking Precision Mathews here).

Constraints:

• SIZE - I have roughly 70” W x 40” D x 96” H of room to allocate for the machine.
  • my “shop” is a one car garage roughly 20’x10’ and it has all my wood working equipment, welding/welding table as well as a metal lathe (10x22 CX-706) I recent bought in it. So a large bench top model is likely my best bet.
• 120v/240v Single Phase Power - I do not have 3 phase. VFD is always an option I suppose.
• Budget - No specific budget but I’d like to keep it under $8/k CAD for the machine itself.
• I have a 2 ton engine hoist, but I would like to keep the weight under 500kgs or 1100lbs, for logistical reasons, though it’s not a hard limit.

I’m sure there’s more I should be considering but I either don’t know to ask the question, or I’m forgetting it, both are equally probable.

Machines I’m considering:

I'm not allowed to post links yet so I've just given the model numbers, sorry.

BusyBee

• CX-601 - I’ve heard mixed things

King Canada

• KC-45 - no experience with King

Are there other options I’m missing? I really wish we had more choices in Ontario, or even Canada in general, for these types of machines. In the US I am considering PM machines, but they are obviously a lot more expensive once you add the exchange and all the shipping/duties/tariffs etc.

Precision Mathews

• PM-932M/V
• PM-833T/TV
• PM-728VT
• PM-30MV

 

[phaxtris]

Buy a lathe first

 

[SightlessSeer]

Buy a lathe first

Constraints:

• SIZE - I have roughly 70” W x 40” D x 96” H of room to allocate for the machine.
  • my “shop” is a one car garage roughly 20’x10’ and it has all my wood working equipment, welding/welding table as well as a metal lathe (10x22 CX-706) I recent bought in it. So a large bench top model is likely my best bet.

 

[Mike R]

Honestly, don't rule out used machines based on

I don’t want a used machine as I don’t feel I’m experienced enough to know when issues are caused by me vs the machine itself.

New machines, especially lower cost ones (i.e. asian imports), can have just as many issues as a used machine.
Since you are in the GTA, it shouldn't be too hard to get someone with experience to help you check out a used machine (I'm up in Ottawa so not much help there).
As far as new machines go, I personally always go for heavier - generally speaking they are more rigid if the material was placed right, the KC-45 is heavier than the CX601 for what will effectively take the same space.
Not sure what price a KC-45 is.
For spindle taper - I would favor R8 and not MT3 (both the CX and KC are R8) - R8 seems to have a much wider selection of inexpensive tooling, MT3 is a little bit harder to find (not impossible) and there are some flavors of it (different draw bar threads - some inch and some metric).
That's all I have for now.
Mike

PS - I had to search Yak Shaver!

 

[David]

My life is yak shaving

 

[David]

I bought a new CX601 clone from Weiss who also produce the CX601. I have since converted it to CNC. It's about 400-500 lbs. Cost me $3000 to my door on Vancouver Island.
Mike R is right, new machines are all going to be imports and they are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Mine works well but I spent some time tweaking and tuning to get to working well as a manual machine. Definitely agree on the R8 spindle.
I like it, it does what I need it to do and fits my small shop.

 

[SightlessSeer]

I'll add another voice to the R8 spindle pile. I bought a mill with a vertical head that takes an obscure collet, a horizontal that takes a common collet, but an unusual one for mill tooling, and have since been loaned another vertical head which takes yet a third type of collet, which is middling obscure and also unusual for mill tooling. In hind sight my life would have been easier with something that took R8 (or even morse taper).

 

[Arbutus]

One of the more frustrating limitations of small mills is the vertical travel of the head vs. the table. By the time you have a vice (2-1/2" high) a Jacobs chuck (3-1/2"), drill (2-4") and the work itself there's not a lot of room left to clear the job. Worse if you are going to be boring with a boring head - thats 4-5" high and the boring bar adds more.

And as others have mentioned, the R8 taper is more versatile and universal and good for tooling up to 7/8" shaft diameter.

The 1/2" table slots on many small offshore mills can be an issue unless you don't mind making your own T-nuts. Look for 5/8" slots to save the hassle.

I would also pay attention to how a quill DRO, X and Z servos and a table(&knee) DRO can be fitted.

 

[J.mac]

Great feedback, thanks everyone! I was definitely planning to go with only R8 taper machines.

Mike R is right, new machines are all going to be imports and they are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Mine works well but I spent some time tweaking and tuning to get to working well as a manual machine. Definitely agree on the R8 spindle.
I like it, it does what I need it to do and fits my small shop.

I was also worried about used ones because I don't have room for the standard Bridgeport style mill that is often recommended to buy when getting used. I vary rarely see any decently made benchtop mills on the used market, and when I do, they are usually round column mills. So, that was also adding to my preference of a new one. That and half the time poeple want almost the same price it was new 20 years ago (but in todays dollars) as a new machine. Gotta love Facebook. At least here in the GTA, so many people buy up things super quick only to try and flip them for profit. Makes finding good deals much harder.

I know most mills will be imports, but from what I have been able to find, the Tiwanse ones apparently are much better than the Chinese imports. So that is why I was considering the Precision Mathews ones. But again, I have no direct experience.

One of the more frustrating limitations of small mills is the vertical travel of the head vs. the table. By the time you have a vice (2-1/2" high) a Jacobs chuck (3-1/2"), drill (2-4") and the work itself there's not a lot of room left to clear the job. Worse if you are going to be boring with a boring head - thats 4-5" high and the boring bar adds more.

And as others have mentioned, the R8 taper is more versatile and universal and good for tooling up to 7/8" shaft diameter.

The 1/2" table slots on many small offshore mills can be an issue unless you don't mind making your own T-nuts. Look for 5/8" slots to save the hassle.

I would also pay attention to how a quill DRO, X and Z servos and a table(&knee) DRO can be fitted.

Great point on vertical travel and tables slots. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Only thing that annoys me is that machines in Canada never seem to have DRO options like the PM ones. I definitely want a DRO. ANd while I can certainly get one aftermarket, I don't know enough to find the good ones amoungst the junk on Aliexpress or Amazon.

Thanks again for the great feedback. It's all very helpful!

 

[J.mac]

As far as new machines go, I personally always go for heavier - generally speaking they are more rigid if the material was placed right, the KC-45 is heavier than the CX601 for what will effectively take the same space.
Not sure what price a KC-45 is.

Absolutely, the PM-932's and PM-833's are all in the 800+lbs range, the KC-45 around 775lbs, while the CX-601 sits around 529lbs.

KBCtools has the KC-45 for $5,999.00 but I'm not sure if that is a good price or not.It's roughly the same cost as what it would be to import the PM-728 I think, but I haven't gotten a full quote yet.


Are King machines considered good machines? I know people are very mixed on BB machines.

 

[PeterT]

I had a Taiwan RF-45 style before my (also Taiwan) Bridgeport clone. It was actually a decent machine. I think they are only getting better +/- the usual caveats. Amazingly the headroom on an RF-45 is about the same. IMO a dovetail model is a better way to go over a post. The comments are correct about new machines can have teething pains too. One thing about PM is they take very good care of their customers. I would really factor service & parts availability in the decision & unfortunately that is a bit of minefield these days living in Kanuckistan. Even reputable companies go kerplunk. Despite the various machines looking similar to one another from across the room, there can be differences when it comes to parts. A few Canucks on our forum have bought PM's without too much shipping/delivery drama but things have gotten a bit weird on the political front. Volatility in USA/CAN tariff issues on certain things, possible USA/Asia which would be just as bad. But a single service visit or bum significant part can put a big dent in the initial price discrepancy. And (spoiler alert) tooling will equal/exceed the machine cost over time but you can ease into that & source from many sellers.

So keep asking questions & digging into forums to familiarize yourself. Best if you can find a knowledgeable buddy in your area. If you were not aware there is a PM sub-forum on HM

PRECISION MATTHEWS - Quality Machine Tools

www.precisionmatthews.com Discuss any issues dealing with Precision-Matthew machines in this forum. Sponsored by QUALITY MACHINE TOOLS

www.hobby-machinist.com

 

[slow-poke]

I'm a lot like the way you describe yourself, except I started the machining hobby about 7 years ago and I'm finding it a ton of fun.

BTW this is a great forum for its down to earth no nonsense friendly advice.

I started with a smaller benchtop mill similar to the CX601 except a round column version. It was great to learn on but has limitations so I have now graduated to a small knee mill, older A1S, basically identical to CX603 and I really like it. A small knee mill will fit in your space. BTW I have the same lathe you have. I'm happier with the quality of my > 30 year old mill than my purchased new lathe.

If you're okay paying for a new one that does remove some risk, however as others have stated sometimes older is better. My A1S was made in Taiwan, the CX603 is made in China, in general made in Taiwan machines are superior to made in China. I paid $2k for my A1S in Mississauga and had it shipped to Ottawa LTL for an amazing $200

If you buy used you often get some tooling thrown in. I did and it was worth at least $1k

If you do go used you can get some advice here on what to check for so you don't get a dud.

One more thing if you do find a good one with tooling, jump on it because they usually sell in a day or so.

 

[J.mac]

Perhaps I just need to get over my worry in buying a used machine, I'm just very concerned about ending up with a nightmare of a machine that doesn't work or needs so much additional work I never get to start actually learning lol

I think if I do end up going new, it's likely be the PM-833TV.

 

[djberta]

J.mac where are you located? There is a big auction coming up in Edmonton for moderns Alberta stores closing and they have many new units. Might be a deal to watch for. Also auctions can be a mess. I have seen people pay more then retail for things at auctions. If your down east keep a good look out for machines. I have an RF30 that I got from busy bee 20 years ago. Its been a good bench top mill and it fits my projects. The round column has its issues but it does lend itself to being a bit more cost effective. As to buying used, yup no doubt you can end up with some issues. But you can also get a diamond in the rough.

 

[J.mac]

J.mac where are you located?

Burlington, Ontario. Just outside of Toronto. So, Edmonton is a bit of a drive

 

[Susquatch]

ANd while I can certainly get one aftermarket, I don't know enough to find the good ones amoungst the junk on Aliexpress or Amazon.

We can help with that.

Perhaps I just need to get over my worry in buying a used machine, I'm just very concerned about ending up with a nightmare of a machine that doesn't work or needs so much additional work I never get to start actually learning lol

I think the majority of us went used. It isn't that scary if you learn what you need to know before you buy.

If you do go used, here is a checklist to help you minimize the surprises.

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/first-milling-machine.5441/post-80421

 

[mickeyf]

Welcome to the yak-shaver's club! At the software job I retired from a few years back we had to maintain an entire herd!

I have never bought a new machine, but when I thought I might do that I leaned heavily towards PM. This was a few years back and was based strictly on other people's opinions - I have never even seen any of their stuff in the flesh. I currently have an even older model on the same machine @slow-poke has. I find it much better than the little Atlas MFC or the round column RF type mill I had previously, but yes, I have run into vertical constraints, especially with a large drill chuck and a large vise, even after I took the hint from @Blondihacks and gained an inch of travel by removing from said vise the swivel base that I had yet to use.

I has been argued that any mill is better than no mill, and you have seen that things sell quickly in major metropolitan areas. I would not be too afraid of getting a used machine to cut your teeth (and other things!) on, especially if you can find a more experienced person to guide you, and especially if they think it's well priced. I'd wager that most everyone here has bought a machine that they later upgraded from. In the meantime you'll have acquired firsthand experience about what you did and did not like, what limitations you could or couldn't live with, etc. Re-selling it later is not likely to lose you money.

 

[slow-poke]

Perhaps I just need to get over my worry in buying a used machine, I'm just very concerned about ending up with a nightmare of a machine that doesn't work or needs so much additional work I never get to start actually learning lol

I think if I do end up going new, it's likely be the PM-833TV.

I totally understand.

In the members spotted thread here, machines are posted daily, that's where I found mine. Initially I thought sounds great but logistics is going to be a deal breaker. Fortunately for me the seller ran a business that did a lot of shipping and hooked me up with a LTL (less than full load) service that prefers to put something in a less than full truck. It was a lift gate so the driver just wheeled it right into my garage. Mississauga to Ottawa $200 I was shocked and it made the deal for me.

A mill like you described only pops up every once in a while. Seems to me there are only a few types of machines on the used market:
1) Home shop, all spruced up good as new or better often with tooling often estate sale
2) Active machine shop, can often test under power, if they were using it it's probably ok
3) Clapped out old machine usually not under power
4) Lipstick on a pig a 3) purchased for $300, given a coat of paint and now asking $2k

You obviously need to avoid 3-4

 

[Susquatch]

What am I planning to make with it?

I’m embarrassed to say this, but I’m not 100% sure. I really enjoy the journey of learning new skills, so for the next year or so it’s likely going to be tooling and jigs and so on as learn to get better.

I can offer one very solid hint. Every single one of us makes tools for our tools. Sounds crazy, but it would cost millions to go and buy every tool you ever need. As machinists, we are all tool makers. Not in the jargon way, but tool makers anyway. If I want to do that, I'll need a tool for that. But I have all these cool Machines I can use to make it!

 

[J.mac]

Welcome to the yak-shaver's club! At the software job I retired from a few years back we had to maintain an entire herd!

Lol, I hear ya. I've been in software for the last 25 years, more executive management the last decade, but I still live me a little yak-shaving.