Heating a garage - Infrared, innovative or terrible idea?

[Jwest7788]

Hey guys,

For anyone who doesn't know, I'm moving next month.

Unfortunately that means migrating my shop, which I am not looking forward to.

What is worse is that the new shop is unfinished with no gas or sub panel. (Smaller too, only ~400 sq/ft)


I have an electrician coming to check the place out this weekend to see how much of a pain it will be to get a sub panel out there (attached garage, polar opposite the main breaker panel) and I got to thinking about heating it.

Instead of having to pay to run a gas line and buying a forced air heater ($1000 + Labour?), what are your thoughts on using hanging infrared heaters like this:





https://www.air-n-water.[com]/heater_volt.htm
This site states:
"In terms of wattage, almost all 120-volt space heaters are rated up to 1500 watts at the maximum setting, and there is a 10/1 ratio of watts to square feet heated.

Therefore, a 1500 watt space heater (120 volts) can heat an area of 150 square feet, and a garage heater rated at 5,000 watts should be able to comfortably heat an area over 400 square feet. That means that if you want to heat your 450 square foot living room, you would need to purchase three space heaters for adequate heating."


According to that, I would need 3 of these ($300 total) and have an electrician coming in anyways...
If I put in 6 ($600) it would be more than enough, and they could run on medium instead of high, wouldn't need a gas line (plumber/gasfitter $), and is about half the purchase price.


The other thought I had, since it's more shop than garage, I do often find myself working with the door open (fumes, grinder, blasting, etc.)

Radiant heat would stick around longer if I just had to open the door for a moment, as it's actually the solid stuff that heats up, which then heats the air, right?


What are your thoughts on this idea? Is it good, or terrible?
What do you reccomend? I've never had to figure this stuff out before.

JW

 

[Dabbler]

In terms of cost, you can take out a Home Owners Permit and do the wiring as a home project... I'd be happy to help you. If the garage is attached, plumbing in the gas will be pricy, but might be a long-term cost saving.

Radiant heat is a great temporary solution I know a few farmers that used them in their equipment sheds in Ontario... The problem for machines is that it is too expensive to leave them on 24/7 and radiant heat gives the machines a heat/cool cycle... With the air being cooler and the machines warming and cooling, it is possible during damp times that you will get a little condensation during the cooling cycles. In Calgary, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

in terms of gas fitting, my neighbour replaced his attached garage heater, and paid way too much for the gas fitting. Reasonable gas fitting cost, if you drill the holes for the run shouldn't be north of $500....

 

[DPittman]

Well unless I was thinking the shop was going to be short term, I would go for the natural gas option. I think it will be cheaper in the long run and likely easier to get a quick heat up if you are running it sporadically. Is there any reason you might need gas run to the shop anyhow? Kilns? BBQs?
Electricity is convenient and can be used easily enough in short term ( no extra installs) and if you use enough(large) heaters the only drawback I can think of is the cost of electricity to run them.

Don

 

[PeterT]

I'd recommend you at least evaluate all-in cost of infrared. They are quiet, 'soft' heat, out of the way generally tucked into a wall ceiling upper corner, less susceptible to moving dust around. Only need 110v for a small motor. Yes you need NG, but being attached it might be less trouble than you think. Either through a wall to your furnace / hot water tank tie in. Or outside as a tee to where your meter is located. Heck, we did that to feed a NG BBQ. The furnace venting is horizontal & I think stipulations about where that points relative to other buildings. No panel & unfinished is a gift, now you can power it & insulate it properly the way you want it.

Here is one link but there are others.
http://calcana.com/

 

[Bofobo]

The cost of insulating is worth every penny, especially if you want to save on cost of electric or gas. and keep it on in winter or you have to wait hours and hours to get everything up to useable temps, frost build up from heating up metal is murder if not checked and who wants to wait 6 hours to do anything in the shop

 

[Alexander]

I paid to have a natural gas heater put in my garage 1 year ago. I think that is the best option for long term cost savings. It was not cheap about $900 to put the gas line in and $1500 for a furnace and install. I used it as an opportunity to put in a bigger electrical circuit in for the garage. I figured if I was digging a trench to the garage anyway it was a good time to put some electrical conduit in and run all sorts of upgrades at the same time. I dug the trench my self and a gas fitter came to put the gas line and furnace in. It maybe depends what you plan to do in your garage. For some of my buddy's who occasionally fix there car in the garage electric heat is fine. But for me who has CNC machines and uses the garage all the time I decided I need the best heating available. First decide if you are going to heat your garage all the time or just when you are in there.

 

[Bofobo]

And yes if you need to dig, plant everything you can. I have done more than enough garage builds with service line trenches to know, once is more than enough. And hope the ground is not rocky

 

[DPittman]

And if you're going to stay there for a long while, draw yourself a really good diagram of where you did the trenching. The mind gets old and cluttered eventually, and remembering "close or about" isn't good enough sometimes. I know this from first hand experience

Don

 

[PeterT]

Is the basement ceiling undeveloped? If so, I'm pretty sure you (meaning a gas fitter ) can tie into the line that feeds your NG furnace. Typically the meter is outside around ground level & enters through the floor joists. If the garage is attached, you might be a lot closer to connectivity than you think. High amp sub panel electric service is a different matter but I agree, put in a big MF conduit and/or cable because 95% of the grunt work is trenching.

 

[CalgaryPT]

Josh I looked at several options years ago myself. I'm a big fan now of NG heaters due to long term cost and how quickly they heat up a space.

If you do decide to go with electric IR, one note of caution...my son's car was bought from a lady who kept it inside the garage all the time. There was an electric IR heater above it. It totally ruined the roof--it is all pealing apart. I know your garage may never see a car, but just a reminder to be cautious what you put under it.

But step one is to insulate, and I include in that weatherstripping on the garage door panel section breaks. This was a big source of heat loss for me becuase ours faces north west and we get the wind. And while you're insulating consider if you want to pumb air. Personally I wouldn't pumb it inside a wall, but I know some people like to.

Best of luck Josh.

 

[Johnwa]

I picked up a 5kW heater this winter. It’s certainly won’t heat up 400sq ft. It was off kijiji and cheap so YMMV.
I believe some of the forced air furnaces will operate on propane, which might be a better option than trying to dig a trench in frozen ground.

The last time I had a furnace installed I bought and hung it myself, then got a gasfitter to hook it up. You can get a Reznor from a dealer for about the same price as the MR Heater that PA sells.

 

[Alexander]

The Mr heater at PA runs on propane or natural gas. I bought a Hot Dog. Kyle's shop has a hot dog too.

 

[kevin.decelles]

I've tried electric, Ng radiant and Ng forced air (reznor). . I like the force air the best

Electric was costly, and the heat was just not the same

I echo everyone's comments, insulation is key, trench once for everything

I don't live in the city (rockyview county) and pull all my own permits and do my own work minus the gas tie in which is a quick job for a gas fitter

But.....,.. if this isn't permanent or long term, that changes things


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[CalgaryPT]

I picked up a 5kW heater this winter. It’s certainly won’t heat up 400sq ft. It was off kijiji and cheap so YMMV.
I believe some of the forced air furnaces will operate on propane, which might be a better option than trying to dig a trench in frozen ground.

The last time I had a furnace installed I bought and hung it myself, then got a gasfitter to hook it up. You can get a Reznor from a dealer for about the same price as the MR Heater that PA sells.

This is good advice. Do everything yourself you can, save for venting and gas if you go this direction.

Trenching party anyone? I have a mattock and pick. Would love a Ditch Witch of course.

 

[Dabbler]

I converted to a PA Mr. Heater, and am quite satisfied with it. Running a ceiling mount NG/Propane is an option, using bottle gas for this winter then a spring trenching session... Even with a reasonable sized bottle and refills, it should be a lot cheaper than electric IR.

 

[Janger]

Hi Josh - I think you should get a natural gas furnace. I have a 60k btu furnace in my garage. It's on a lot to keep it comfortable out there. Assuming you bought electrical heaters what size would you need? Take a look at this link showing a electric furnace with a btu equivalent. It's a 20,000W electric heater equivalent to a 60K btu gas furnace. John W said his 5000W heater isn't enough which makes sense - it's like a 15,000 btu furnace. Heat is heat - the type of furnace radiant, electric, wood, natural gas whatever it's all the same. Warming up all the stuff in the garage happens no matter what the heat source . How big is the furnace you have now? 30K?

http://www.thefurnaceoutlet.com/Goo...9Cr6BV3lnhKF8St8ckM5l-uRRfRKRChRoCwScQAvD_BwE

Garages are not well insulated - it's because of the big door (R5 typically in an insulated door) leaking and the cement floor conducting heat away. The electric heater is cheap to buy but expensive to run.

This shows numbers comparing gas to electric - it's USA based but basically the same as here I think. Gas costs 1/3 less in their comparison. I imagine electricity costs quite a bit more in alberta so perhaps gas is 50% less.
http://www.centerpointenergy.com/en...electricity-cost-comparison.aspx?sa=MN&au=bus

 

[kylemp]

I'd agree that NG is the best way to do it. It's a lot more upfront cost but you can do you electrical as everyone else has said at the same time and it will actually keep you warm in the winter. Also i agree with insulating it as well as possible.. it might have some cost to it but its practically useless if you cant go out there for 4 months of the year and your machines get ruined.. Good luck with the move!

 

[kevin.decelles]

How long of a trench is needed? How much room "around" the trench area?

Is this a forced manual dig or a equipment-assist scenario


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[CalgaryPT]

Couple of afterthoughts Josh -

1) If you go with forced air, think about where it aims. This can be an issue for MIG and TIG gas dispersal.

2) Put the furnace on a timer switch, or have a second / remote disconnect from inside, especially if you have your garage alarmed. I can't recall the number of times I woke up in the middle of the night to hear the heater going and didn't want to disarm the alarm in case I woke up my wife. Meanwhile, I was wasting gas in the night I didn't need to.

 

[Jwest7788]

Thanks Everyone,

I am definitely seeing the benefit of NG vs electric. Too bad, I was hoping it was an easy "two bird with one stone"!

For forced air natural gas then, Any recommendations on sources / brands? (Thanks @Alexander , I'll look into the Hot Dog heaters)


For eletricity, the current panel and the garage are actuall pretty close to each other. It's an attached garage, so that line only needs to be one level and a few feet, which is great.

Can a gas line be pulled (more or less) straight from the meter into the garage? As they're pretty close to each other too....