TorontoBuilder
Ultra Member
yes you may.
-
Scam Alert. Members are reminded to NOT send money to buy anything. Don't buy things remote and have it shipped - go get it yourself, pay in person, and take your equipment with you. Scammers have burned people on this forum. Urgency, secrecy, excuses, selling for friend, newish members, FUD, are RED FLAGS. A video conference call is not adequate assurance. Face to face interactions are required. Please report suspicions to the forum admins. Stay Safe - anyone can get scammed.
ELS installation questions
- Thread starter Brian H
- Start date
slow-poke
Ultra Member
Stepper motor:
My lathe is fairly small 10x26 and I'm using a NEMA23, 1.9Nm, the gear ratio between the stepper and the transmission is 1:2, and I'm using position C in the transmission for another 1:2, so the leadscrew turns at 1/4 of stepper motor speed. This has worked flawlessly for me. I happened to have this stepper so I decided to try it expecting it to be too small. It fits nicely in the cavity of the ways on my machine and that allowed me to retain the gear cover without anything hanging out. There is actually room in that space for a larger stepper. All that to say it depends to some extent on where and how you will mount the stepper on your lathe. I would size up if you have the room just for insurance. I removed the gear spider or whatever you call it that accommodated the various gears for threading and just replaced it with one pulley lined up with the leadscrew gear.
My ELS when available comes with plug in connectors with screw terminals on the plug end, so just insert the wires into the connector and tighten the screws, then plug in the connectors to the back of the ELS. Wiring diagram will be included, and is straightforward, connectors are separate by function:
a) two wires for power from walwart to ELS
b) four wires from ELS to stepper driver: 5V, enable, step, direction
c) Encoder wires, I used an Omron encoder, these show up on eBay for cheap once in a while.
I have not determined a price yet, but about same cost as the C42 kit, but you get plug and play and extra features. Ballpark price don't hold me to it $200
Attachments
Last edited:
TorontoBuilder
Ultra Member
sorry the previous reply was a poor attempt at language based humour.
I had been going to make my own controller since I found many deficiencies with James Cough's ELS. Firstly, if you're going to invest resources into a lathe project you really should maximize the potential functions far beyond screw cutting.
Minimum functionality I want in addition to the ability to cut ANY thread, be it imperial, metric, or archaic funky old British threads, groove turning, taper turning, cone turning, convex and concave radii turning. in order to easily enter the data to turn such operations you MUST have a GUI interface AND well thought out infographics to make the data entry process completely intuitive.
I also demand the lathe retain full manual functionality with minimal effort required to convert from manual to ELS function. Rocketronics can disengage the stepper motors with the touch of a button.
Two, IF anyone proposes to be a supplier of universal ELS kits they should use cheap, readily available and easy to use products that come with a massive support base. TI is not it. expressif's ESP32 chips are in my opinion. That is what I would use If I went ahead and designed my own.
So Clough is out. many others are similarly out.
Then there were many competitively priced ELS systems out there fighting for recognition. Most are from overseas vendors which I usually avoid unless I can see the product first hand. I was able to see the rocketronics system on @gerritv's lathe. I liked it.
Oh and the company promised that imperial threading is in the works.
Now all that said, I haven't seen Maxim's els before....
EDIT:
Maxim has two devices. The device of his I like is NOT the simple nano based screw-cutting els but rather the 4 axis controller based on the esp32 module
He promises all the functions I desire. It appears to be open source on github rather than proprietary, so that is super appealing for those who can further develop the product like my buddy can.
Maxim uses esp32, and that device has massive benefits in terms of dual core processing, wifi and bluetooth, and data storage capabilities. So in theory his product could be kickass. One of the reasons I wanted to make my own was to be able to store commonly used functions for future use... ie lets say I was making a quorn cutter grinder and I had to make a bunch of ball end handles... I could store the data in memory, have a bunch of pre-cut blanks I'd chuck up in a collet with a depth stop. Then I'd just recall my groove cuts, then my taper cut, then my two ball cuts, then part of the finished handle. rinse and repeat.
TorontoBuilder
Ultra Member
I recall the device you made for your mill... so I am very very interested to see what you've done for your ELS. too
Brian H
Super User
Your humor in the first reply was not lost on me...I almost spit my coffee onto my laptop...
Thanks for your input. Due to my lack of knowledge (I won't even pretend I know what you are talking about) I can follow your logic in regards to reliability and having a serviceable part ( I believe that's what you were getting at, correct me if I'm wrong). I also agree with your train of thought in regards to having a "tool" that is multi-functional and expandable.
One of the concerns I have is for someone like myself, never having used anything like github, what is the process for getting/using the information/programming (I believe that is what that is for) to install or upgrade later.
I hope you guys aren't eye-rolling me too much... I warned you I was "challenged...LOL
All that being said, I do truly value your advice and opinions. I would prefer to only have to do this once... (I know why let fear and common sense get in the way now...)
slow-poke
Ultra Member
Sounds like you might be a competitor;-) so I will hold off on the features specification for now.
I have used ESP32, and a lot of TI DSP's in the past, I would not be quite so quick to bad mouth the TI parts, ESP32 would be a total fail for some of the TI DSP work we did in the past. It really depends on what you are doing, I think of ESP32 when I'm thinking consumer WiFi type gadgets ( like this: https://www.wxmtech.com/traffikflo) and TI DSP for more serious industrial control and number crunching / heavy IRQ type stuff.
Last edited:
TorontoBuilder
Ultra Member
hey I would not want to go the github route, but the idea of github and open source is that you can create a pretty decent basic multifunctional product that will meet the needs of the majority of users as shipped.
While at the same time providing a product that is robust and customizable for the picky needy people who want a custom product to exactly serves their needs. The one criticism I have of rocketronics is I believe it is proprietary so you can't hack it easily
TorontoBuilder
Ultra Member
Nah, I've decided against trying to develop my own ELS since an off the shelf product can serve my needs. I'm 95% decided on the germans unless something better comes along before I find a suitable small lathe to convert.
My brother decided against a multiple axis ELS for his lathe when he got the Colchester with the separate lead and feeds. He is happy with his DRO and the ability to use the DRO to set taper angles, and a ball turning attachment will meet our ball turning needs.
My electronics friend and I are onto something completely different that will take most of our time and resources for the next year, so we plan to finalize our tachometer and machining computer shortly and then move on to our new project.
But that said, keep your features a secret if you wish. I'll still look forward to what you come up with, since I always enjoy seeing what people do...
Tom O
Ultra Member
Here’s something for the els users.
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
What a cool chart!! thanks!!
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
No, that's the recipe.
for a 32 pitch thread, the total depth is .49mm or about 19 thousanths (thread calculator says 23 thousandths)
the first pass is about 7 thou (.17 mm)
The second pass is 6 thou
the third pass is 4 thou
the finish pass is between 2 and 3 thou.
In the past, when anyone wanted an ELS for their lathe mine was the only one available. Now mine isn't even mentioned. I guess if I want more visibility I have to do a better video than this one.
For mine you need a 9-12V power supply, a box to put it in and a one pulse per rev sensor. The rest is the same with respect to motors and drives for the axis. Mine can run with only the Z axis although if you want tapering you need both.
I have a taper attachment on my South Bend so I've never been motivated to power the cross slide.
What I can say is that over the years I've done metric threads, imperial threads, multi-start threads but mostly it's just nice to use a keypad to key in BEGIN and END positions or move to where I want to be and select BEGIN or END on the keypad.
Yes there is a rotary know (MPG) but it's used to move the axis. Not to select digits or parameters I have arrow keys for that.
GrumbleMode := ON;
The day I will fall in love with a rotary knob to select parameters is when I see microwave ovens at Walmart use that for setting and controlling the microwave or stove.
Recall too we went from sending texts using a telephone keypad and hitting a number key several times to select letters. Rotary knobs for that sort of selection is only done on the Electronic gearing systems because the difficulty in creating a 35 button keyboard. Doesn't come as commercial off the shelf from the far east so it isn't done.
GrumbleMode := OFF;
Anyway I've sold my ELS kits all over the world including even Tasmania, South Africa, Europe and never one returned. So since no one on this thread mentioned mine I thought I would.
I have a taper attachment on my South Bend so I've never been motivated to power the cross slide.
What I can say is that over the years I've done metric threads, imperial threads, multi-start threads but mostly it's just nice to use a keypad to key in BEGIN and END positions or move to where I want to be and select BEGIN or END on the keypad.
Yes there is a rotary know (MPG) but it's used to move the axis. Not to select digits or parameters I have arrow keys for that.
GrumbleMode := ON;
The day I will fall in love with a rotary knob to select parameters is when I see microwave ovens at Walmart use that for setting and controlling the microwave or stove.
Recall too we went from sending texts using a telephone keypad and hitting a number key several times to select letters. Rotary knobs for that sort of selection is only done on the Electronic gearing systems because the difficulty in creating a 35 button keyboard. Doesn't come as commercial off the shelf from the far east so it isn't done.
GrumbleMode := OFF;
Anyway I've sold my ELS kits all over the world including even Tasmania, South Africa, Europe and never one returned. So since no one on this thread mentioned mine I thought I would.
You are welcome to come for a shop tour.
I feel your pain John. If it's any consolation at all, I do think of you and yours every time a discussion of an ELS comes up. You add value to every discussion in which you participate so you easily come to mind.
I often wonder how your ELS would compare to other units out there. But while I'm interested in how they work and how they compare, I have no interest in getting one, and I have no experience or expertise beyond whatever parallels exist in my world. So most of my thoughts stay only in my mind and never get mentioned in a thread.
I confess that @whydontu makes a great point about real switches vs touch screens. I'm a bit of a fanatic about the value and quality of tactile feedback so I find it odd that I never realized that subtlety. It's so bad that I actually considered the Touch DRO to have better input than my Ditron. Yet another example of how familiarity breeds contempt.
Reading your note just now makes me realize how wrong all this is. I can't just drop by like @Dabbler plans to, and I'm not buying or installing one because I prefer full manual, but I have added doing a detailed review of it to my ToDo list so I can at least comment more knowledgeably about it in future.
The biggest difference between mine and the others is they use each pulse from the encoder on the spindle to create a pulse on the lead screw motor or the pulses are accumulated and then divided to create a ratio so the motor steps for every X.Y encoder pulses. This requires a fairly high resolution encoder to create the high number of pulses needed for the motor. And limits the top speed of the lathe. Hence no 6000 RPM Sherline lathe.
Contrast that with MACH3, LinuxCNC and mine that use a 1 PPR as an index to identify where the spindle is. Where mine and MACH3 differ from LinuxCNC is the RPM is also determined from that value and in my case results in a 'minimum' speed requirement. LinuxCNC still requires the quadrature AB signals in addition to the Index and it uses that for speed and therefore tracking. Apparently you can, once in threading mode, also turn the spindle by hand and have the motor track. Haven't tried that. Also the encoder on my mill has only 60 Teeth or the equivalent of 240 pulses per rev way lower than that 7200 provided by the encoders on the other Electronic Gearing Systems (EGS).
LinuxCNC uses a trajectory planner possible because they use a 32 bit or better 1 GHz speed Pentium compared to a 20 Mhz 8 bit PIC processor. Lack of hardware floating point are another issue.
Last night reading through some of the very early postings to the E-Leadscrew group (2005) I remember mentioning how I wanted to use a Texas Instruments Digital Signal Processor. I'd even bought an evaluation board and created an add on for my CAN RF and Encoders. But it turned out that programming it for end users and compiling the software was very complicated not to mention the processor itself was expensive so after a discussion we downgraded to something cheaper and free to keep the price under $200.
Remember back in 2005 the Chinese hadn't driven most North American small companies out of business yet. Amazon didn't exist. So $200 was an amazingly good price and the first 50 went out at $150 actually.
It's why I ported the software (flawlessly with little effort) to the PIC32. Just buffers to translate 5V to 3.3V. But even so, I can't compete with $8 Arduino boards that cost less than what Digikey charges for the processor on the Arduino. And the newer ESP32 series boards with dual cores also cost less than the PIC32 processor.
Anyway, the Electronic Gearing systems use the spindle pulses to move the leadscrew so you can turn the lead screw by hand just like physical gearing systems. The better ones have taper turning and more automation.
Mine was designed to be used the way you use your manual lathe which is why, with only the leadscrew driven, you still use it in a very manual mode. Use the cross slide dial to track where you are for depth of cut. Or how deep a cut to make. It just starts and stops on a dime.
Even multi-start threading is easy when you think about what it really is. If you have a 2 start thread the threads are started 180 degrees apart right? Or half the pitch. So cut one thread at 10 TPI (0.1" pitch) . Then set the BEGIN position -0.05" further to the right. Cut another 10 TPI thread. now you have a 2 start thread. Bore a nut or holder in the same way.
And here's the biggest down side to my ELS and it's a biggy. You CANNOT change the spindle speed once you have started threading. You must complete the threading operation at the same spindle speed setting. Turning doesn't matter. Threading does.
I can explain why if someone wants to know.
Contrast that with MACH3, LinuxCNC and mine that use a 1 PPR as an index to identify where the spindle is. Where mine and MACH3 differ from LinuxCNC is the RPM is also determined from that value and in my case results in a 'minimum' speed requirement. LinuxCNC still requires the quadrature AB signals in addition to the Index and it uses that for speed and therefore tracking. Apparently you can, once in threading mode, also turn the spindle by hand and have the motor track. Haven't tried that. Also the encoder on my mill has only 60 Teeth or the equivalent of 240 pulses per rev way lower than that 7200 provided by the encoders on the other Electronic Gearing Systems (EGS).
LinuxCNC uses a trajectory planner possible because they use a 32 bit or better 1 GHz speed Pentium compared to a 20 Mhz 8 bit PIC processor. Lack of hardware floating point are another issue.
Last night reading through some of the very early postings to the E-Leadscrew group (2005) I remember mentioning how I wanted to use a Texas Instruments Digital Signal Processor. I'd even bought an evaluation board and created an add on for my CAN RF and Encoders. But it turned out that programming it for end users and compiling the software was very complicated not to mention the processor itself was expensive so after a discussion we downgraded to something cheaper and free to keep the price under $200.
Remember back in 2005 the Chinese hadn't driven most North American small companies out of business yet. Amazon didn't exist. So $200 was an amazingly good price and the first 50 went out at $150 actually.
It's why I ported the software (flawlessly with little effort) to the PIC32. Just buffers to translate 5V to 3.3V. But even so, I can't compete with $8 Arduino boards that cost less than what Digikey charges for the processor on the Arduino. And the newer ESP32 series boards with dual cores also cost less than the PIC32 processor.
Anyway, the Electronic Gearing systems use the spindle pulses to move the leadscrew so you can turn the lead screw by hand just like physical gearing systems. The better ones have taper turning and more automation.
Mine was designed to be used the way you use your manual lathe which is why, with only the leadscrew driven, you still use it in a very manual mode. Use the cross slide dial to track where you are for depth of cut. Or how deep a cut to make. It just starts and stops on a dime.
Even multi-start threading is easy when you think about what it really is. If you have a 2 start thread the threads are started 180 degrees apart right? Or half the pitch. So cut one thread at 10 TPI (0.1" pitch) . Then set the BEGIN position -0.05" further to the right. Cut another 10 TPI thread. now you have a 2 start thread. Bore a nut or holder in the same way.
And here's the biggest down side to my ELS and it's a biggy. You CANNOT change the spindle speed once you have started threading. You must complete the threading operation at the same spindle speed setting. Turning doesn't matter. Threading does.
I can explain why if someone wants to know.