Electric panel questions.

[cuslog]

"The 600 is not a bad price....."
No, its not a bad price -- installer said it had to be ~20" wide x 18" deep - (both gas and electric in the trench) you'd need a little backhoe to do that.
I dug it by hand - over 2 days (3 or 4 hours a day was about enough for me).

 

[Tom O]

Don’t forget those cables sag and expand

 

[Perry]

Don’t forget those cables sag and expand

Notice how nice and tight they are in my CAD. I'm sure if I played long enough I could make a formula to draw a sagging cable. Probably take me longer then digging the trench.

Thank you. I did take that into acount.

 

[Perry]

"The 600 is not a bad price....."
No, its not a bad price -- installer said it had to be ~20" wide x 18" deep - (both gas and electric in the trench) you'd need a little backhoe to do that.
I dug it by hand - over 2 days (3 or 4 hours a day was about enough for me).

If I was using a trencher, I think I could do two small parallel trenches.

 

[Perry]

I hope you're getting better quotes.

No quotes yet for the job. Second estimator postponed today until Friday. First estimator still working on what his plan will be.

 

[Dabbler]

A little bit to unpack here... (sorry I'm late to the discussion)

1. Gas and electric 'can' run in the same trench, but my pipefitter wouldn't do iot when I ran my gas to the garage. Apparently it is safer to keep them separate.

2. When I first moved into my house I had a 60 amp service with 8 breakers. I upgraded to a 100 amp service with a 48 breaker panel and ran a 60 amp lead to the old panel. Much cheaper than rewiring everything.

3. Do you need a 200 amp service? Perhaps not, but extra capacity can be nice. I run a 60 amp lead to my garage to a 32 breaker panel. I've never needed more. I run a 15HP 3phase converted a 7.5 HP 3PH lathe, and multiple 50A welders. Never a problem.

4. I had a celarance problem as well, but they ran the mast to a good point and ran the lead-in to my panel inside the house, and it was fine. I seem to recall they were allowed 25 or 35 feet (or was it 10m?) befor it had to enter the main panel.

At the time a completely new run to the house with new main panel, and 60 amps to the old one was just north of 1000$, but it gave me discounts on my insurance.

 

[PeterT]

Some smarter folks here can fill in the proper terminology but don't do what I did which was run a single TEC? cable that may turn out to be less amps than you discover you require later. You may not be welding when you are running a mill, but maybe the compressor will come on or a buddy will be operating another machine.... something like that. Turns out I'm OK but amp duty on the cable is not a smart place to penny pinch IMO. Re-opening a now sodded or landscaped ditch that was already exposed once upon a time to drop in a bigger or second line would make one feel sheepish. So either run a conduit pipe you can pull more wires through or do it right the first time meaning amp capability.

The gas+electric same trench has been discussed a few times. Whether conduit pipe works in conjunction with gas and/or what is required for separation is something you should check into for your own (read insurance/inspection?) purposes because it may have changed over the years.

 

[Perry]

Ok, first quote came in today. Just under $11000. (They quoted with a copper feeder. Stated I could save $700 if I used aluminum.) I was expecting more around $7000-8000. Crazy.

I had gotten an estimate at the end of 2015 right after I finished the garage. $3000 A broken ankle and leg shortly afterwards put everything on hold.

Hopefully the second estimate will be easier to swallow.

 

[Dabbler]

Just under $11000

wow. My garage electrical was 700$. My gas run was 950$, but included hooking up the furnace. I couldn't afford those prices now, or even when I had things done, before retiring...

 

[Tom O]

Could you rough it in yourself and have them tie it in that should reduce the price.

 

[Perry]

I had hopes for the first estimator. Seemed like a good fit for the job. Still no quote.

Called a third company yesterday and already got a response from them . They only do electrical installs so this quote does not include the gas line. I'm guessing the gas line install adds another $1500 to this. $6,820.19 So I'm getting closer to my $7000-$8000.

I'm learning as I go. This third estimate breaks the pricing done to much lower level. One item that made sense to me was to remove the over head data and phone lines and install them in the trench to the house also. (Cleans up the back yard.) This requires another mast. Cost $700. Cable and 1.5' conduit to house with a coax and a CAT5. $800. So $1500 of this pricing is just related to the data and phones lines.


Thinking this thru this evening I have a question regarding the panel. I know all panels and circuit breakers are not the same. You need to use the breaker that is designed for your panel. (Same manufacturer) Is there a preferred panel that I should be looking for?? 200amp panel in the garage. 100 amp panel in the house.

@Tom O I probably could, but I would be moving pretty slow and learning as I go. (It would be the first time for me to do this.) The longer term plan after the panel is in will be to get a permit to wire the garage electrical. I've done this before and I am comfortable and capable of this level of work. This was one place I knew I could reduce some of my costs. Farther down the line I will do some upgrades in the house.

@Dabbler I retired August 01. That is what got me to thinking I could actually make more use of my garage now.


Thank you for the time guys. I appreciate the comments and thoughts.

 

[RobinHood]

Is there a preferred panel that I should be looking for??

There is one you may want to stay away from: Schneider Electric Stab Lok, aka, Federal Pioneer Stab Lok. Why? Because some of their circuit breakers have a very high failure rate, the panels have been banned in certain jurisdictions (in the USA) even though we still use them here in Canada. There have been class action law suits against FPE, Federal, and Schneider and some home insurance companies will not insure the home if you have those types of breaker panels in your house (US jurisdictions).

We have a Stab Lok panel in the house (built in 1989). If we need to replace it for whatever reason, it won’t be Stab Lok any more. For the shop I am using Square D. Breakers / Panels are cheaper than Stab Lok, and more readily available with a larger selection of options.

Here are links to some of the concerns I have listed above:

https://allistonhomeinspector.com/federal-pioneer-panels/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...27af86-4ef9-11e8-b725-92c89fe3ca4c_story.html

https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/Federal_Pioneer_Electric_Panel.php

There are many more references.

It does appear that the breakers / panels sold in the US were manufactured in a different facility than the items sold here in Canada.

 

[PeterT]

Not sure if this helps. I called these guys on my dads 1960's home few years back which required some significant panel (and related exterior mast?) work.
https://panelupgradeexperts.com/
FWIW, his response, quote, code knowledge & overall communication seemed pretty good, as did references. I didn't pursue how price compared because Dad had to move shortly thereafter, so we dodged the bullet.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I have electrical and gas in the same trench. No issues. I digged trench myself.

AL feeder is fine - many feeders are AL. I do not see much of an issue with AL as a feeder. For my garage feeder I have copper - AL is much thicker.

Gas line connection and a nice furnace like 4 years ago was around 2500.

Note that we are under huge inflation - like 15% per year now or so. Thus expect prices to skyrocket for everything.

 

[Perry]

@RobinHood Thank you. Sounds like the lower estimate uses a Schneider Homeline panels. Not sure if this is the Stab Lok, I will have to research this.

@PeterT This was the third place I called. Great communication and super fast response on their estimate. Presently the lowest estimate. On the down side I need to find a separate contractor to do the gas work.

 

[RobinHood]

I believe that StabLok and HomeLine are not the same type of breakers. HomeLine is a new type of system also made by Schneider Electric.
One thing that is really nice about StabLok is their colour coded breakers - only ones on the market, afaik.

The StabLok issues I mentioned was just some food for thought - we had no problems with ours.

 

[Perry]

Thank you R. I will read up on them this evening.

It's not knowing what to look out for. That is why these forum are a wealth of information.

 

[Dabbler]

I have Stab Lok breaker panels in both home and garage. Mine were both installed and filled before Federal sent all manufacturing to 3rd world countries, which resulted in large runs of substandard breakers. Instead of destroying the bad runs, the company decided to sell the defective ones and fight the lawsuits. Bankruptcy and destroyed reputation followed. Why we were allowed to continue to sell Stab lok is that once a pattern emerged of house fires, Federal had to recall all breakers produced in the period and were disallowed from selling their breakers in Canada (they were delisted).

So all breakers you buy for these panels in Canada have been newly certified, and are considered safe. FWIW. I used to love Stab Lok over Siemens because the breakers were far more reliable (oh, the irony!)

Would I use stab lok now in a new installation? No way. Would I replace what has been working for over 30 years? Nope to that also.

Ther best breaker panel to use is the one that your certified electrician has the most experience with. Most faults and fires are caused by incorrect installation (save the stab-lok fiasco).

I have installed Stab-lok, Siermens, and Square D panels. Of the three, Square D is my fave, becaue there is more room to route wires inside. Otherwise, Siemens is fine too. They seem to have fixed their quality problems with their breakers. They used to fail open which was a pain because of replacement cost...

 

[Perry]

Trench digging day.

I have a section of concrete up against the house. I need to remove 20" of it from the end. 7 foot length of cut. I've dug under concrete before on an old driveway and broken it away with a sledge hammer. On this one I would like cleaner edge.

Do you think if I could score it with a diamond blade in an angle grinder I would get a cleaner break? Any other ideas? Wasting my time? Down the line (a long line) I will most likely remove this whole slab and replace it.

Ok. back to digging.

 

[YYCHM]

Rent a concrete saw.