DavidR8's shop shenanigans

[DavidR8]

Working on the TouchDRO.



This is for my lathe which is two axis only obviously. I chose to mount the two 'spare' DB-9 connectors but not make the connections to the board. That's why the connectors are 'loose like that. They are zip tied together so they aren't completely loose inside the enclosure.

 

[Susquatch]

This is for my lathe which is two axis only obviously.

Why is that obvious David? I confess that I am considering the pros and cons of putting scales on my compound and tailstock too. That's 4 altogether.

The advantage of a tailstock dro are many.

But one on the compound could be used to determine and/or set angles, develop resultant combined movements, etc etc.

 

[Larry_C9]

I found an easy way to put a DRO on the tail stock. Works well for me and it works in imperial and metric .

 

[DavidR8]

I found an easy way to put a DRO on the tail stock. Works well for me and it works in imperial and metric .

View attachment 33957

That’s on my project list!

 

[DavidR8]

Why is that obvious David? I confess that I am considering the pros and cons of putting scales on my compound and tailstock too. That's 4 altogether.

The advantage of a tailstock dro are many.

But one on the compound could be used to determine and/or set angles, develop resultant combined movements, etc etc.

I’m talking about axis not number of scales.
A mill is three; X, Y and Z
A lathe is only Z and X.
If you have a milling attachment there would be a Y but that's the exception.
A tailstock is Z
A compound could be X or Z or some combination thereof.

I’m probably going to pull my compound and replace it with a solid tool post mount a la Robin Renzetti

 

[Larry_C9]

It gets a bit confusing - On my mill X is along the table and Y is across. On the lathe X is across or the diameter and z is along the bed. When you move from one machine to another you have to pay attention.

 

[DavidR8]

I found an easy way to put a DRO on the tail stock. Works well for me and it works in imperial and metric .

View attachment 33957

Did you see the lovely job Mark Presling did on adding a tailstock DRO to his Colchester?

 

[jcdammeyer]

It gets a bit confusing - On my mill X is along the table and Y is across. On the lathe X is across or the diameter and z is along the bed. When you move from one machine to another you have to pay attention.

The Z on a lathe or a mill represents the direction in the axis of the spinning tool or work. X is across which is odd relative to a mill where X is left to right. I think historically X is the first axis that moves perpendicular to the turning axis. After X comes Y.
But Z is always aligned with the turning axis.

It gets more confusing between a CNC router or Mill where the head moves up and down while a Knee mill has the table moving up and down. Table moving down is positive on the mill. Router head moving down is negative on the CNC router. The value always gets smaller the closer you get to the spinning part.

 

[jcdammeyer]

The only way I'd ever consider it is of there was zero interference with manual control of the machine

I think when @David_R8 watched me amateurishly use my CNC mill to cut his tool post plate it became obvious that when you don't know what you are doing (me) it's all pretty clumsy. And then setting feed rates too high and pulling the TTS holder out of the R8 collet didn't help.

Of course it really was all the fault of @David_R8. He shouldn't have let me touch his metal plate. Recipe for disaster. I think I fooled him into thinking I knew what I was doing (not!). I only have 42 more "how to run your mill" lessons to go.

I think that's why he doesn't want to go CNC on the mill. I scared him big time.....

 

[DavidR8]

I think when @David_R8 watched me amateurishly use my CNC mill to cut his tool post plate it because obvious that when you don't know what you are doing (me) it's all pretty clumsy. And then setting feed rates too high and pulling the TTS holder out of the R8 collet didn't help.

Of course it really was all the fault of @David_R8. He shouldn't have let me touch his metal plate. Recipe for disaster. I think I fooled him into thinking I knew what I was doing (not!). I only have 42 more "how to run your mill" lessons to go.

I think that's why he doesn't want to go CNC on the mill. I scared him big time.....

Not a bit John. I just like turning the hand wheels.
Firing up my CNC router is still mildly terrifying. I make air passes on every job so there's no possibility of crashing into anything.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a CNC mill but not at the expense of a manual mill.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Not a bit John. I just like turning the hand wheels.
Firing up my CNC router is still mildly terrifying. I make air passes on every job so there's no possibility of crashing into anything.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a CNC mill but not at the expense of a manual mill.

I had power feed on my mill from the word go. I liked being able to adjust feed rate till it was just right. I can do that with the CNC system too. Just didn't. There's a slider on the screen for adjusting the set speed by a percentage. So if it's too fast then slow it down.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Not a bit John. I just like turning the hand wheels.
Firing up my CNC router is still mildly terrifying. I make air passes on every job so there's no possibility of crashing into anything.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a CNC mill but not at the expense of a manual mill.

I totally get that. It was the design philosophy behind my lathe ELS. We had many discussions on how to use the same sort of concepts for a mill. At the time I didn't have a mill but another one of the reasons for the DB-25 parallel port connection on the ELS was that with an updated processor it could work for a mill too.

Generally milling with power feeds but no automatic Z axis motion is called 2 & 1/2 axis. The thing that's missing in the manual operation is repeatable simultaneous motion of X and Y. The ability to cut an arc or diagonal line. Most of the time on my mill the rotary table handled the arc side of things. The DRO on XY and the quill served to make it easy to transfer drawings into motion. And the having power feed I always felt was indispensable.

Since I never did go further with an ELS for my mill (although using a Beagle Bone Black with MachineKit was a starting point) eventually I just went CNC, first with MACH3 and then up into LinuxCNC.

And as you saw, with the MDI it's possible to enter in G-Codes and make it move from A to B at a specific rate. Pretty close to a power feed but with a start and end point. But it's clumsy at times. (lots of times). Especially for the one-of project that may only exist as a sketch on the back of an envelope.

What's needed is what I have on my ELS for 2.5 axis milling. Set a BEGIN and END position, configure travel speed and spindle velocity and press START. If you add a powered quill or knee you can add in a RETRACT and CUT position and run a full path. Now START turns on the spindle, moves to the retract position and then to the BEGIN point. Moves to the CUT position and then travels to the END at the travel speed. Pulls out and returns.

Now if you set the Y axis positions to the same value then it's a straight line. If you set them to different positions it's an angular line. And there would be other options for START/END X/Y and a RADIUS. And so on.

The reality is this can all be done with G-Codes on LinuxCNC. What is really needed is just the user interface that gives a user an MPG knob for each axis that behaves exactly like the physical handwheel on a manual machine along with the ability to enter in co-ordinates for more complex motion.

That's where I was headed with the BeagleBone Black until support for MachineKit vanished and the various LCD displays had a support lifetime measured in months. Even the BeagleBone books, if they are are lucky, if they are even being published anymore, have a life of one year. Then the OS is radically modified and the books are instantly out of date.

So I went the PC route and have lived with LinuxCNC. One day my machine might even have ball screws and the monitor will actually bolted to the arm post on the stand.

Anyway, don't discount a CNC installation. Instead grumble about crappy user interfaces.

 

[Susquatch]

The thing that's missing in the manual operation is repeatable simultaneous motion of X and Y. The ability to cut an arc or diagonal line.

This is a rather excellent point. I've often wondered if there are machinists out there who can do this smoothly and without error. I can't, but I have tried. I've even tried a saw tooth approach with later grinding. The best I've ever been able to do has been done using fixturing (rotary tables, vises held in vises, etc). Not that I have not tried though. I just make too many mistakes. But I can rather easily imagine a highly experienced highly skilled machinist signing his name into steel just by cranking the hand wheels.

Anyway, don't discount a CNC installation. Instead grumble about crappy user interfaces.

If I have ever been seen to discount CNC or those who use it, then shame on me. It wasn't intentional. I am very aware of what it can do and happy to applaud those who have it and have learned to use it.

If I have grumbled at all, it was because I don't like the opposite from others who poo-poo manual milling either.

While I appreciate both, I'm just not willing to go to the expense of getting cnc capability or to invest the time required to learn how to use it effectively. I'd much rather spend that time hunting turkey or learning to dance the rumba or chatting about the pros and cons of cnc in a thread on here while I lay in bed drinking coffee.

I've heard others bitch about changing lathe gears, or endlessly cranking the handles on their mills. I'm not among them. I just love cutting threads, making an intricate part on the mill, changing gears, and cranking handles.

For me, manual machining is not boring or tedious, it's a labour of love. Feeling the pressure of a spinning cutter on the wheel in my hands and adjusting the feed rate to make it happy is just plain 10x more satisfying than learning to write G-Code and pressing go on a button.

If I was 30 or 40 or 50 or even 60, I might feel differently cuz I'd have the cranial efficiency to do both. Or maybe it's more like, "it's just not a priority" in my remaining life.

 

[Former Member]

Might I suggest you review your runs with NCviewer (cloud based and free) or GWizardE (paid from CNC Cookbook, I use this as I hate cloud base).

These programs let you view tool path line by line and edit if required, great for spotting crashes prior to running (even air based) and a lot faster.

You have a 3D graphical view of your run with both cuts and rapids to start, and then you can step through line by line and see the movement. I generally use it to trim lines or paths out and increase feeds to reduce run time.

As the conversational language is written to be conservative and and trimming out 15-20mins on a 2hr 50min run does pay quickly in multiple runs.

A second benefit is gives you a direct idea of what a G-code line actually means and does.

 

[DavidR8]

For me the ideal situation

Might I suggest you review your runs with NCviewer (cloud based and free) or GWizardE (paid from CNC Cookbook, I use this as I hate cloud base).

These programs let you view tool path line by line and edit if required, great for spotting crashes prior to running (even air based) and a lot faster.

You have a 3D graphical view of your run with both cuts and rapids to start, and then you can step through line by line and see the movement. I generally use it to trim lines or paths out and increase feeds to reduce run time.

As the conversational language is written to be conservative and and trimming out 15-20mins on a 2hr 50min run does pay quickly in multiple runs.

A second benefit is gives you a direct idea of what a G-code line actually means and does.

Thanks for this recommendation, I will definitely check out NCViewer. Ironically I just unsubbed from CNCCookbook because of the thrice-weekly (it seemed) emails with the same content.

 

[DavidR8]

I totally get that. It was the design philosophy behind my lathe ELS. We had many discussions on how to use the same sort of concepts for a mill. At the time I didn't have a mill but another one of the reasons for the DB-25 parallel port connection on the ELS was that with an updated processor it could work for a mill too.

Generally milling with power feeds but no automatic Z axis motion is called 2 & 1/2 axis. The thing that's missing in the manual operation is repeatable simultaneous motion of X and Y. The ability to cut an arc or diagonal line. Most of the time on my mill the rotary table handled the arc side of things. The DRO on XY and the quill served to make it easy to transfer drawings into motion. And the having power feed I always felt was indispensable.

Since I never did go further with an ELS for my mill (although using a Beagle Bone Black with MachineKit was a starting point) eventually I just went CNC, first with MACH3 and then up into LinuxCNC.

And as you saw, with the MDI it's possible to enter in G-Codes and make it move from A to B at a specific rate. Pretty close to a power feed but with a start and end point. But it's clumsy at times. (lots of times). Especially for the one-of project that may only exist as a sketch on the back of an envelope.

What's needed is what I have on my ELS for 2.5 axis milling. Set a BEGIN and END position, configure travel speed and spindle velocity and press START. If you add a powered quill or knee you can add in a RETRACT and CUT position and run a full path. Now START turns on the spindle, moves to the retract position and then to the BEGIN point. Moves to the CUT position and then travels to the END at the travel speed. Pulls out and returns.

Now if you set the Y axis positions to the same value then it's a straight line. If you set them to different positions it's an angular line. And there would be other options for START/END X/Y and a RADIUS. And so on.

The reality is this can all be done with G-Codes on LinuxCNC. What is really needed is just the user interface that gives a user an MPG knob for each axis that behaves exactly like the physical handwheel on a manual machine along with the ability to enter in co-ordinates for more complex motion.

That's where I was headed with the BeagleBone Black until support for MachineKit vanished and the various LCD displays had a support lifetime measured in months. Even the BeagleBone books, if they are are lucky, if they are even being published anymore, have a life of one year. Then the OS is radically modified and the books are instantly out of date.

So I went the PC route and have lived with LinuxCNC. One day my machine might even have ball screws and the monitor will actually bolted to the arm post on the stand.

Anyway, don't discount a CNC installation. Instead grumble about crappy user interfaces.

If I could have an encoder on each axis just like a hand wheel that would honestly really sway me. From an interface perspective, once I got used to some of the idiosyncrasies, I love the UCCNC install on my CNC router. And the remote is a breeze to use for rapids around the workspace.

 

[Former Member]

I have a wireless dongle at does 4 axis, rotary switch to switch be axis, rotary switch to switch between scales 1x, 10x, 100x and one encoder.

LCD displays location

Once you get used to it its great.

 

[DavidR8]

I have a wireless dongle at does 4 axis, rotary switch to switch be axis, rotary switch to switch between scales 1x, 10x, 100x and one encoder.

LCD displays location

Once you get used to it its great.

That sounds very much like the one i have.

 

[Tom O]

But I can rather easily imagine a highly experienced highly skilled machinist signing his name into steel just by cranking the hand wheels.l

Ah yes the Etchasketch generation.

 

[jcdammeyer]

I'd much rather spend that time hunting turkey or learning to dance the rumba or chatting about the pros and cons of cnc in a thread on here while I lay in bed drinking coffee.

I can teach you to rumba, cha cha, waltz, foxtrot, jive and tango. And the nice thing is for a very brief time we become HWMBO.