Tips/Techniques Cutting High Strength Steel Forging

Tips/Techniques

Susquatch

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I have a job to do for a rancher in the area. They broke the drawbar on their tractor, and can't find a replacement at all. They could get a new tractor but that would be an expensive fix. So they bought a drawbar at a junk yard that they figured they could modify. It needs to be cut to length, milled down to fit the receptacle, and a hole for the locking pin drilled out. A few days of messing with that and it suddenly became my project. :eek:

I looked at it and said, that will be hard on endmills, and I've no idea how hard it will be to drill. So I will need to buy endmills and drills at your expense plus my time - which could be several more days. We settled on 2 grand or my cost plus markup whichever was less. That's a kings ransom for such a simple job but still cheaper than a new tractor.

First up was the cutoff. Broke a 20 tpi Starrett Intense blade doing that. Replacement on their tab already on order. I switched to a cutoff saw with a grinding wheel for steel in it. Wore out a 14" blade doing that. But succeeded after about 4 hours of patience. Could not just cut - had to cut and chill to soften the steel enough to cut. Would have used a cutting torch but too afraid to ruin the metal properties. Grinding with coolant seemed much safer. That part of the job is done but took a whole afternoon.

Next up is cutting the bar size down. Took a few passes with a Carbide endmill. Not happy.

My Question: I am using 1/2 inch 4 Flute Carbide Endmills to plane it down about 3/8 inch. I'm shooting for 1/8 per pass. I tried HSS which wouldn't touch it. My endmills are not happy cutting this high strength forging. They were happiest at 1100 rpm and a feed rate that just loads the cutter by feel. Faster chatters, slower stops cutting (I assume it's hardening the metal). It's also unproductive. Even as is, this will take all weekend and I won't have the balls to charge what the job is really worth.

What speed would you run a half inch carbide endmill at in a high strength steel forging like this?

Note - It's probably also case hardened. So future passes might be easier. Won't know till I get there.

I am not equipped to soften the metal and then reharden it. Nor do I want to try.
 
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Susquatch

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are you working on one of these?

The metallurgy is prolly very similar, they are both really strong forging. However, the one they gave me to modify looks more like this:

Screenshot_20240418_185501_Chrome.jpg

It's used to pull large heavy equipment like Disks or plows but also light stuff like wagons.
 

trevj

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Nope, those are cheap enough to not bother with fixing, most of the time.

Pretty sure he is working on the actual drawbar at the lower center of the arse end of a tractor.


I would suggest an insert (two or three inserts, likely something along the lines of cheap TPG inserts) facing mill and possibly a carbide insert drill of the correct size.

Rule of thumb is 3 to 4 times the surface speed as used for HSS tooling. Tighten down the gibs on anything on the mill that does not need to move freely in cutting operation.

Provided the stuff is not a high nickel/chrome content stainless, anyways.

I have had better luck with miserable material, skimming several light passes off with a wider area facing mill, than trying to dig in further with an end mill... FWIW.
 

Susquatch

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know if you have something like this indexable facemill not sure if it would be any faster.

I have a few of those (I call them face mills) ranging from 3/4 inch to 3 inches. I assumed the inserts would be destroyed by the nature of the cut so I never bothered to even try. Replacing a half dozen inserts after one cut didn't appeal to me.

I do agree it would be faster if it worked. However, those inserts are sintered carbide which is quite fragile. If I had a spare one I might test it.

Really just wondering what RPM you guys would chase.
 

trevj

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I have a few of those (I call them face mills) ranging from 3/4 inch to 3 inches. I assumed the inserts would be destroyed by the nature of the cut so I never bothered to even try. Replacing a half dozen inserts after one cut didn't appeal to me.

I do agree it would be faster if it worked. However, those inserts are sintered carbide which is quite fragile. If I had a spare one I might test it.

Really just wondering what RPM you guys would chase.
Well, inserts can be got for a lot less than solid carbide end mills, and if the stuff is as miserable as you say, you WILL eat a fair few of those.

Personally, I would probably start aiming for about 200 sfpm for either the inserts or the face mill. It'll become obvious fast, if you are on the right or wrong trail.

Scratch out the surface speed for whatever size mill you want to try using, based on, say, around 65 sfpm for an alloy steel, and round the numbers up or down as you see fit to match the milling machine's settings.

I suspect you would be shocked at how much an insert can withstand, if you have the speeds cranked up. My experience has been that too slow speeds eat inserts, except when trying to cut stainless alloys...

Edited to add: I have had incredibly better life spans out of end mills with the corners radiused rather than having a sharp 90 degree corner (quite fragile). You can buy them with a radius, or you can freehand a small one on to a carbide end mill using a diamond stone like a knife sharpener (I like my Eze-Lap hand files!), or with a cast iron lap with diamond grit embedded in it (surprisingly inexpensive stuff, industrial diamond abrasive!).
 
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Martin w

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Yeah those drawbars are pretty tough. Case hardened too. What the heck kinda tractor they got, can’t find a drawbar used? Tons of used stuff up your way.
As far as milling. I’d go slow and lots of cutting oil.300-400rpm Not an easy job , that’s for sure.
martin
 

gerritv

Gerrit
According to Stefan G, milling hard metal requires low RPM and high feed rate when using carbide. I have very negative experience doing the exact opposite.

gerrit
 

mbond

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I have a few of those (I call them face mills) ranging from 3/4 inch to 3 inches. I assumed the inserts would be destroyed by the nature of the cut so I never bothered to even try. Replacing a half dozen inserts after one cut didn't appeal to me.

I do agree it would be faster if it worked. However, those inserts are sintered carbide which is quite fragile. If I had a spare one I might test it.

Really just wondering what RPM you guys would chase.
How large is the area that you need to machine down?
 

Susquatch

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Nope, those are cheap enough to not bother with fixing, most of the time.

Not fixing. Trying to modify an existing drawbar to fit this tractor because it's own drawbar is no longer available.
Pretty sure he is working on the actual drawbar at the lower center of the arse end of a tractor.


Yup, that's exactly what I'm working on.

I would suggest an insert (two or three inserts, likely something along the lines of cheap TPG inserts) facing mill and possibly a carbide insert drill of the correct size.

My first instinct said that would be the way to go, and it's what I planned right up until a band saw and then an an abrasive metal cutting wheel wouldn't touch it. At that point I decided inserts would just shatter. So I went with a solid carbide endmill instead. It's working but it's super slow. I feel like the rpm is wrong. But I don't really know that. I'm mostly going by feel which has always worked very well for me.

Rule of thumb is 3 to 4 times the surface speed as used for HSS tooling.

Great. What's the HSS speed..... They broke so I can't use that.....

Tighten down the gibs on anything on the mill that does not need to move freely in cutting operation.

No brainer. I wasnt letting anything loose bite me.

Provided the stuff is not a high nickel/chrome content stainless, anyways.

No idea what it is, but prolly not stainless. It's not rusty but is well weathered.

I have had better luck with miserable material, skimming several light passes off with a wider area facing mill, than trying to dig in further with an end mill... FWIW.

I skimmed it first too, but not with a face mill - see above.

Mostly I skimmed it hoping the hardness was only skin deep. That turned out not to be true. This stuff is hard all the way through.
 

Susquatch

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Could you grind down through the case hardening and mill once you're through ?

At first I thought so too, but after trying to cut it with a grind wheel I know it's not just case hardened. That shit is hard all the way through.
 

Susquatch

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Well, inserts can be got for a lot less than solid carbide end mills, and if the stuff is as miserable as you say, you WILL eat a fair few of those.

Personally, I would probably start aiming for about 200 sfpm for either the inserts or the face mill. It'll become obvious fast, if you are on the right or wrong trail.

Scratch out the surface speed for whatever size mill you want to try using, based on, say, around 65 sfpm for an alloy steel, and round the numbers up or down as you see fit to match the milling machine's settings.

I suspect you would be shocked at how much an insert can withstand, if you have the speeds cranked up. My experience has been that too slow speeds eat inserts, except when trying to cut stainless alloys...

Edited to add: I have had incredibly better life spans out of end mills with the corners radiused rather than having a sharp 90 degree corner (quite fragile). You can buy them with a radius, or you can freehand a small one on to a carbide end mill using a diamond stone like a knife sharpener (I like my Eze-Lap hand files!), or with a cast iron lap with diamond grit embedded in it (surprisingly inexpensive stuff, industrial diamond abrasive!).

I'll give that a whirl.

Thing is I have solid carbide on hand. I don't have inserts. This job needs to be done by Monday. Customer will pay for whatever I use.

I'll try 200 sfpm. I'm at 150 right now. It cuts but its slower than I'd like and there are a lot of glowing red hot chips. I tried 300 and it didn't like that. Also tried 500 which was horrible.
 

Susquatch

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Yeah, it didn't make any sense to me to case harden a part like that.

I've read that they are case hardened. But I agree with you. How would that help a drawbar? My experience on this one is its all the way through.
 

thestelster

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At that point I decided inserts would just shatter. So I went with a solid carbide endmill instead.
I've never shattered an insert.

Using your 1/2" solid carbide, try 600rpm. But those sharp points will dull pretty quick and then it gets difficult to cut.
 

Susquatch

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I agree. 200sfpm and carbide inserts.

You like inserts too eh?

Maybe my lathe experience makes me paranoid. I wouldn't expect to get away with using inserts on high strength material with interrupted cuts. So I just figure no way will those face mill inserts cut that forging without breaking.

I'm about 1/3 done. It seems wiser to just keep going.

But if I break another endmill, I'll try a face mill with big inserts. Why not.......
 

Susquatch

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I've never shattered an insert.

You live a charmed life. Interrupted cuts and shattered inserts go together like a horse and carriage!

Using your 1/2" solid carbide, try 600rpm. But those sharp points will dull pretty quick and then it gets difficult to cut.

Best I've found so far is 1100. But no harm trying 600. That's why I asked. Hope that's better.
 
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