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  • Spring meet up in Ontario, Newmarket, April 6/2024. Discussion

3D Scanning large Boats

Matt-Aburg

Ultra Member
its good to have a contract so that everyone knows what is expected from the start, in writing, timelines, quality, etc

BUT, and this is a big BUT, a contract does not guarantee you get paid, civil court in Canada has no teeth, you can talk to anyone who has been through civil proceedings, its pretty much a waste of time/money for small amounts, your best off to wash your hands off it and move on, its better for your mental health

really, the small busines world just works on the honor system, and i really do hope you get some of your money
My plate is cleaned tomorrow (delivery of housings). I have to do a 500-700 word reflection Essay for the G course I am taking, due Friday.. When this is all said and done, I am taking time off of trying to make money and finish the shop to be a showroom. I need to be able to market it, and that means being able to give tours and have new photos on the website, I have 3 months of work to get ready to open my doors officially. I have signage to make and some lingering props to make (new thread coming on that...) Also outdoor work...

Now, time to go OD thread two tie-bars 1/2-20 both ends. and drill 10 holes...
 

phaxtris

(Ryan)
Premium Member
Premium Member
Well good luck man! most people are honest, this is just a bump

What i tell guys getting into business for them selves, Shoot for the average, your not going to make money on every single job, but so long as you, on average, make money, you will succeed. Just try to keep that in mind when you get those stinkers
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
finish the shop to be a showroom.

Hmmmmm....... Not sure about that one either.

At the risk of taking this thread WAAAAY off topic and provoking a dozen sleeping tigers.......

Just like many of us have neat and tidy shops and some have organized chaos, I think customers are the same way. Some will get turned off looking at a shop that looks like the owner cleans more than he works and would be more impressed by a shop that looks like the operator is busy and gets things done.

Others will want to avoid the messy shop and the scatter brain that works there.

Me? I'd prefer to work with a small shop guy that works while he talks and then gives me a fair price and tells me come back after lunch or the next day to pick up my finished project.

I don't want to pay a guy to clean his messes. I want to pay him to make messes (sorry, I mean chips).

Too bad we can't do a survey of customers......

Maybe like so many other similar things, there is a balance to be struck?
 

StevSmar

(Steven)
Premium Member
Scanner used is below. This one is for large field of view things and accuracy of about 0.25 mm.
That looks like a nice scanner!

When I retire I’m toying with the idea of renting a LIDAR(?) scanner for a Hawker Hurricane in the Canadian Aviation & Space Museum. I’ll probably have to rent it twice- once to learn how to use it and a second time for the actual scan… Maybe it’s a pipedream…
 
Not sure how this tupe of contract and what legal recourse you have, but from my construction days, liens against the prime customer (ie his customers property, ie the boat), may get you paid at some point. Just be forewarned it must be done in a certain time frame if it is possible.
 

Dan Dubeau

Ultra Member
Hope you get paid for your efforts so far. Doing the work is always the easy part. Getting paid for it is sometimes the trickiest. We're (auto tooling) in a bit of a "holding pattern" right now too. It's been on and off like that for a few months. Starting to get some 2008 vibes. It's been 2 years of 50-60 hour weeks "work as much as you want", to "if you want to take some time off, now would be a good time". We're quoting a lot, "got" a few packages, but they're slow to get rolling. I've got a few shop projects going on (trunnion table build), but if work doesn't start getting signatures, I'll be dropping some hours, and catching up on some personal projects at home.
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
Starting to get some 2008 vibes. It's been 2 years of 50-60 hour weeks "work as much as you want", to "if you want to take some time off, now would be a good time". We're quoting a lot, "got" a few packages, but they're slow to get rolling.

Its happening all around us Dan.
We ride the highs and peddle through the lows. It's the build back better world approach as you probably know.
Some shops are crazy busy, some are not so fortunate.
Hang in there, its going to be a bumpy ride through 2023-24
 

phaxtris

(Ryan)
Premium Member
Premium Member
Welcome to what it's like in Alberta, she's like a full on rollercoaster here
 

Dan Dubeau

Ultra Member
Its happening all around us Dan.
We ride the highs and peddle through the lows. It's the build back better world approach as you probably know.
Some shops are crazy busy, some are not so fortunate.
Hang in there, its going to be a bumpy ride through 2023-24
Yes, always been the nature of the beast in automotive. I've always been pretty lucky, but did ride a wave of bankrupt shops back in the 08 crisis. It's best to strengthen yourself during the high times to better weather the low times, but it's always easier said than done, and not everyone does. I'm in a good spot this time around. The past 2 boom years I used to my advantage to clean up some stuff, and build a stockpile, as well as invest in my own shop. I have been real cautious to spend money poorly the past two years as I felt the covid boom was just a dead cat bounce for us (our shop, and the fixture industry in general).

The next couple years are going to be tough I think, but I should weather the storm ok. Maybe this will provide some new opportunities for me out the other side. At the very least it should give me some free time to finish some reno projects she's been reminding me about for far too long :D
 

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
she's been reminding me


il_570xN.628962581_8ab4.jpg
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
Today I contacted the owner of the marina. I told him about my backlog, which will be 100 percent cleared by friday upcoming. He replied by email to not work on the project anymore. I then responded that I will be at his shop next week to pick up my blocks and aluminum and have a discussion.

I feel that like the mold industry, I have been put on HOLD. I am going to present invoices for work done... I am owed about 1K as far as I am concerned. I will bring data on a stick.
I'm sorry to hear that your project was put on hold.
 

Matt-Aburg

Ultra Member
Yes, always been the nature of the beast in automotive. I've always been pretty lucky, but did ride a wave of bankrupt shops back in the 08 crisis. It's best to strengthen yourself during the high times to better weather the low times, but it's always easier said than done, and not everyone does. I'm in a good spot this time around. The past 2 boom years I used to my advantage to clean up some stuff, and build a stockpile, as well as invest in my own shop. I have been real cautious to spend money poorly the past two years as I felt the covid boom was just a dead cat bounce for us (our shop, and the fixture industry in general).

The next couple years are going to be tough I think, but I should weather the storm ok. Maybe this will provide some new opportunities for me out the other side. At the very least it should give me some free time to finish some reno projects she's been reminding me about for far too long :D
Today I have someone whom I worked with before at the previous Mold shop ask if I know Cimitron and would like to come out of hibernation. Two weeks ago that same company put a group photo up. Like I counted well over 100 ppl. If I do return, hoping it would be smaller, not bigger.

I want to get my stuff done first, annnddd I will not be switching gears from NX to stimitron...

Right now is the time to build. If I stop now, it will never get done. I am confident that there will always be opportunity in the toolmakers shops..
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
The past 2 boom years I used to my advantage to clean up some stuff, and build a stockpile, as well as invest in my own shop. I have been real cautious to spend money poorly the past two years as I felt the covid boom was just a dead cat bounce for us .

Put-r-ther! Some seen it coming, the general population has been out of touch.
I hope the old/new bird flu doesn't get us next haha.

Maybe this will provide some new opportunities for me out the other side. At the very least it should give me some free time to finish some reno projects she's been reminding me about for far too long :D
You know what direction to start peddlin' in, if need be, which is half the battle.
I'm sure you will find that opportunity if/when the time comes.
Jus' keeping the wife content in the off season is a job.
I'm down to about 33 1/2 reno sticky notes behind myself . I tore the #34 reno job in half the other night:oops:
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
Today I have someone whom I worked with before at the previous Mold shop ask if I know Cimitron and would like to come out of hibernation.

Right now is the time to build. If I stop now, it will never get done. I am confident that there will always be opportunity in the toolmakers shops..

It was that dam 3 button mouse I hated when using Cimitron back in 1997 or so.
Anyone remember?
Maybe they have changed that since... Certainly was the best software for surfacing at the time thou.
 

Matt-Aburg

Ultra Member
I went there yesterday. The purpose of the previous scan was a time study. He has 2 big boats that will involve scanning before rip out and after. He wants a report still on how the process will work. He told me to stop on the sample because obviously my shop rate adds up quick. This report is a detailed method of how the work is done. I also need to find a software that will serve all the needs of this job as well as CNC router that's being ordered. Maybe I will be employed there.. This is for discussion after the PowerPoint is ready.

I am going to evaluate Fusion, and possibly a few others. Must have layers, assembly tree, ability to link parts or features between different parts in the tree. Ability to deal with mesh data (scans)/ all under one platform. AANNDD NX is not in the running.

I told him that all real job boats he wants scanned require an agreement before I begin. "NP", he said..
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I told him that all real job boats he wants scanned require an agreement before I begin. "NP", he said..

All is well that ends well. I bet you are glad you never pressed send on that spleen venting letter... ;)

If it's ok with you, I'd like to share a few thoughts about written agreements. The following is just my opinion and it is basically worth what you paid for it.

So you create this agreement or contract, you both provide input, you finalize it, you both sign and date it, and you each keep a copy. Everyone is happy.

Life is great and then something changes. Maybe ability to pay, maybe some major change in scope, maybe input costs change, or maybe someone hits financial problems.

In the best of worlds, this gets discussed, the agreement is revised, and life goes on.

Sometimes it's a little more rocky than that, but again life goes on just the same.

But.... what if agreement can't be reached? What if the bills pile up but no cheques arrive?

No problem you say, "I have a written agreement - you have to pay". And the other party goes silent. Now what? Hire a lawyer for 10x what the contract is worth? Five years later you might settle for 5 cents on the dollar and that doesn't cover the lawyers cost...... Not good...... Not good at all!

In my view, contracts protect nothing unless you can afford the legal costs to defend them. And very very few can.

So my advice is simple. By all means, write the agreement. But don't expect that to protect you - cuz it won't. Instead, use it as a mechanism to improve mutual understanding of cost, expectations, and deliverables. Not as a protection mechanism.

At the end of the day, absolutely everything depends on the integrity of the individuals. Focus on the relationship, keep communication open and frequent, manage expectations, and minimize surprises. An agreement can help facilitate that, but unless you can afford the legal costs, it won't protect you from a bad situation.

A word about legal costs. You can get an opinion for very little. But real work will start with at least 20k just to get going and several hundred k to finish. It's important to recognize this reality BEFORE you start racking up the bill. If you can't afford to finish the fight, don't start the fight. Just walk away. Live and learn as they say.

There are always going to be a few people out there that you will wish you never met. But I think the majority of people are good willed. Walk away from the bad ones and celebrate the good ones.
 

TorontoBuilder

Ultra Member
All is well that ends well. I bet you are glad you never pressed send on that spleen venting letter... ;)

If it's ok with you, I'd like to share a few thoughts about written agreements. The following is just my opinion and it is basically worth what you paid for it.

So you create this agreement or contract, you both provide input, you finalize it, you both sign and date it, and you each keep a copy. Everyone is happy.

Life is great and then something changes. Maybe ability to pay, maybe some major change in scope, maybe input costs change, or maybe someone hits financial problems.

In the best of worlds, this gets discussed, the agreement is revised, and life goes on.

Sometimes it's a little more rocky than that, but again life goes on just the same.

But.... what if agreement can't be reached? What if the bills pile up but no cheques arrive?

No problem you say, "I have a written agreement - you have to pay". And the other party goes silent. Now what? Hire a lawyer for 10x what the contract is worth? Five years later you might settle for 5 cents on the dollar and that doesn't cover the lawyers cost...... Not good...... Not good at all!

In my view, contracts protect nothing unless you can afford the legal costs to defend them. And very very few can.

So my advice is simple. By all means, write the agreement. But don't expect that to protect you - cuz it won't. Instead, use it as a mechanism to improve mutual understanding of cost, expectations, and deliverables. Not as a protection mechanism.

At the end of the day, absolutely everything depends on the integrity of the individuals. Focus on the relationship, keep communication open and frequent, manage expectations, and minimize surprises. An agreement can help facilitate that, but unless you can afford the legal costs, it won't protect you from a bad situation.

A word about legal costs. You can get an opinion for very little. But real work will start with at least 20k just to get going and several hundred k to finish. It's important to recognize this reality BEFORE you start racking up the bill. If you can't afford to finish the fight, don't start the fight. Just walk away. Live and learn as they say.

There are always going to be a few people out there that you will wish you never met. But I think the majority of people are good willed. Walk away from the bad ones and celebrate the good ones.
For new clients I typically used letter of intent to purchase services... It was the foundation we built relationship on. It eliminated most uncertainties and set expectations.

But most importantly, the letter of intent made it clear, NO WORK PRODUCT DELIVERED WITHOUT PAYMENT IN FULL UPON DELIVERY.

and in most cases that meant payment via credit card
 
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