What am I doing wrong?

[Six O Two]

I have never seen alcohol recommended as the cleaning agent, always either Acetone or Lacquer Thinner. Not sure why. But, I have already boguht the Acetone to try, and so will try Acetone first.

Jim G

You seemed concerned with the acetone fumes upthread, so I figured I'd offer an alternative. I find the vapors less troublesome than acetone personally. Alcohol cleaning was what was recommended to me when I learned to TIG, though granted my course dealt primarily with steel welding. It's certainly not uncommon.

 

[Xyphota]

My miller diversion machine occasionally has poor starts like you describe. I push the pedal a bit, I get a momentary flash and then nothing happens. I agree with the others, it is likely just a poor ground. What usually works for me if I am being stubborn and don't want to move the ground clamp cable is to just completely back off the pedal and try to initiate a new arc. It will usually start after 2 or 3 pumps. I dont think i've had any prior success just holding the pedal down and waiting for the arc to start.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I suppose that there are a couple of grounding possibilities:

- I have made sure the ground clamp connection to the table is solid, but it is possible that the end of the ground cable that goes into the machine is somehow internally too loose in its receptacle in the machine itself (it is nOT hard to push it in and turn it to tigthen)

- I am using a multi-layer aluminum diamond plate tabletop for welding, since I am welding exclusively aluminum, and don't want to take the chance of getting steel onto the aluminum (Steel rusts). I made sure that I wirebrushed the ground clamping point before clamping, but maybe the ground is just not as good with aluminum?

Jim G

 

[Xyphota]

Is this aluminum diamond plate your only available welding surface? I’d give a steel surface a try, i think you might be over-thinking the possible contamination of the table, especially if you are just practice welding coupons. Steel jigs are used all the time to hold aluminum components while they are welded together.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Is this aluminum diamond plate your only available welding surface? I’d give a steel surface a try, i think you might be over-thinking the possible contamination of the table, especially if you are just practice welding coupons. Steel jigs are used all the time to hold aluminum components while they are welded together.

If I try using a steel plate on top of the aluminum table, and ground the steel plate versus the aluminum diamond plate, how thick a piece of steel would I need to buy?

We do have a local metal salvage yard which I assume can sell me a suitable plate. Buying a one-of even small steel plate from a regular metals supplier is tough, because (1) It's too small an order for almost all of them - way below their minimum, and (2) How the heck would I cut it to a suitable rectangular or square shape, as I am not set up to cut any metal that a pair of shears can't handle.

I will likely end up with an inexpensive 240 V "50 amp" imported plasma cutter at some point, as that would also help me make more creative items, but right now, I don't have a good way of cutting a large thick piece of steel into a suitable table size and shape. All I currently have that could POSSIBLY work are: a jigsaw and a circular saw. My 10" wood band saw is way too small, and there's no way I would ever try to mount an abrasive disk or a carbide metal cutting blade in my 12" radial arm saw, as that would send hot fiery sparks EVERYWHERE in what has been primarily up to now my WOODworkign shop with lots of wood sawdust in every nook and cranny despite good vacuuming regularly - a serious fire hazard and personal safety issue for metal cutting by any of the above non-professional methods!

I got my diamond plate aluminum layered sheets from a shop that had a lot of surplus diamond plate at an attarctive price, and a plasma cutter that simply cut one of their existing 48" x 50" pieces into 4 smaller 24" x 25" pieces.

Jim G

 

[phaxtris]

an easy way to check to see if your having a grounding issue is to try and start the arc on the ground itself, if you get a no start there check your connections, and work from there

the blue arc is the high freq start, that blue arc will jump to anything, including your buddy's backside if you want to give him a jump, usually if you are consistently getting the blue arc, but no actual arc afterword's it is a grounding issue....or a machine issue

are you consistently getting the high freq arc ? every time you push the pedal down ?

why not just clamp your cupon and the table together on the edge of your table with the ground clamp, that way your piece stays nice and flat and you should be getting a consistent ground

 

[JimGnitecki]

an easy way to check to see if your having a grounding issue is to try and start the arc on the ground itself, if you get a no start there check your connections, and work from there

the blue arc is the high freq start, that blue arc will jump to anything, including your buddy's backside if you want to give him a jump, usually if you are consistently getting the blue arc, but no actual arc afterword's it is a grounding issue....or a machine issue

are you consistently getting the high freq arc ? every time you push the pedal down ?

why not just clamp your cupon and the table together on the edge of your table with the ground clamp, that way your piece stays nice and flat and you should be getting a consistent ground

The blue arc SOMETIMES appears with the no-arc, but other times there is no blue arc. Overall, when there is a no-arc, the blue arc is also not there most of the time.

Clamping the workpiece to the edge of the table MIGHT work. My concern there is the overall ergonomics. I have the weld coupon positioned at an ideal location that enables me to rest my mid-arm (almost at the elbow) on the edge of the table in front of and to the right of me, and the torch hose clamped to an extension off the RHS of the table to keep the weight of the hose off my hand.

That gives me the ideal relaxed and perfectly controllable position and perfect visibility to run a long bead without any muscle fatigue.

I think trying to clamp the weld coupon to the table via the grounding clamp might interfere with the perfect ergonomics. I might TRY to clamp the workpiece, but it might not work for me. I'll see. It's a good suggestion. Thank-you for it.

Jim G

 

[Proxule]

I suggested the same thing as your canaweld girlfriend. Remove 1 variable at a time.
I personally never had a intermittent arc like you suggest before.
But its plausible .

Gluck

 

[Xyphota]

If you dont already have a steel plate, I dont know that you should run out and buy one. You are getting some successful welds, I just thought if you had something lying around to give it a go.

When using the diamond aluminum plate, is your work piece clamped onto the surface? (Not with the ground clamp, just a regular ol’ clamp?)
Forcing the piece into good contact with the table via c-clamp for example will vastly improve the ground, and also of course serve to keep your parts in position and combat weld distortion.

 

[phaxtris]

not getting the blue arc is not a grounding issue, you need to eliminate problems with your pedal, connections, consumables, etc. you should get that blue arc every single time you step on the pedal, in fact if you hold the torch in mid air and step on the pedal you should see that blue arc shooting from the end of the tungsten in mid air

edit: this is assuming that high freq start is on, your not going to get that blue arc with lift arc or scratch start

 

[JimGnitecki]

I suggested the same thing as your canaweld girlfriend. Remove 1 variable at a time.
I personally never had a intermittent arc like you suggest before.
But its plausible .

Gluck

Yes, it is hard to troubleshoot because the occurrence is "not that often" and is unpredictable. Just happens often enough to be annoying, and to require anywhere from just 1 or 2 re-tries to sometimes needing up to maybe 30 seconds ballpark to resolve.

Dusty at Pacific Arc also experiences it from time to time and does not yet know the cause.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

When using the diamond aluminum plate, is your work piece clamped onto the surface? (Not with the ground clamp, just a regular ol’ clamp?)
Forcing the piece into good contact with the table via c-clamp for example will vastly improve the ground, and also of course serve to keep your parts in position and combat weld distortion.

Ah, I understand. I am pretty sure I can clamp the workpiece with a small metal screw clamp that should not interfere with my ergonomic setup. I'll try that! Thank-you.

Jim G

 

[Downwindtracker2]

When I use either acetone or lacquer thinner I use thin nitrile gloves. I find the gloves get baggy ! I would think both could get absorbed into skin.

I am the last person to give advice on these new inverter welders, but I seem to remember that mine has a Start function that is programmable. I know mine does on stick because it has given me grief, I have to program it.

 

[JimGnitecki]

When I use either acetone or lacquer thinner I use thin nitrile gloves. I find the gloves get baggy ! I would think both could get absorbed into skin.

I am the last person to give advice on these new inverter welders, but I seem to remember that mine has a Start function that is programmable. I know mine does on stick because it has given me grief, I have to program it.

I have very dry skin which starts to crack if I handle chemicals like Acetone or Lacquer Thinner at all, so I wear inexpensive disposable clear gloves when I am using any chemical. So far, the gloves have not shown any signs of either falling apart or passing the chemical through to my hands. (SOME combinations of glove materials and chemicals DO dissolve the gloves!)

On my Canaweld AC-DC TIG 201 Pulse D, there ARE a lot of possible adjustments for various parameters, but nothing that alters the high frequency start. I suppose selecting the "pulse" function would potentially somehow alter the atarting of the arc (beyond pulsing the amperage), but I am nowhere near ready to learn about pulse functions, which I understand are helpful or absolutely needed on really thin materials. The entire video training course I am taking uses 3/16" thick aluminum to keep the number of variables low.

Jim G

 

[Downwindtracker2]

Sorry , the gears and shafts are pretty rusty, but on mine there is a switch for either scratch start and HF ?? start.

 

[historicalarms]

I use Alcohol as a cleaner, (gas line or air break line anti freeze) cheap as borsch and can get it anywhere. Leaves no residue that I can notice evaporates dry in seconds.
My welding table is a piece of 1/2 steel that has sat outside in the elements for 35 yrs so the top is always rust covered. Its easy to initiate a ground at the ground clamp anywhere on the table edge with just a wiggle of the teeth to the table but it sure doesnt take a very thick rust coating to make a weld spark hard to initiate at the work piece but I never use a solvent for this just a wire wheel if handy or simply a hand held wire brush if handy but without wire of some sort it ain't gonna spark.

 

[WilliamR]

No one mentioned brakleen type products for cleaning, but chlorinated variety can turn to hydrogen chloride and or phosgene gases in presence of heat/ultraviolet rays. They pushed that in school.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I went out and did a bit more practicing this afternoon, and I did the extra thing of clamping the weld coupon down onto the aluminum diamond plate table. The diamond plate was already installed with its UNembossed surface upward to give a flat surface for grounding, but I thought if the grounding was maybe marginal due to oxidized aluminum versus steel surface, clamping might make a difference as a number of people on the welding forum have suggested.

I think it might have made a difference, as I only had 2 instances of no-arc.

I am going to do further, more prolonged testing.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

It IS the grounding!

Today, I clamped the weld coupon workpiece to the tabeltop with a c-clamp, AND then also clamped the grounding clamp to the workpiece (top scissor of the grounding clamp) and the bottom of the aluminum tabletop (bottom scissor of the grounding clamp).

With this setup, I had only 2 no-arc instances.

And, when each of those 2 instances occurred, I moved the torch over to above the aluminum tabletop, pressed the foot pedal, and got an immediate arc.

So, the grounding is indeed the issue.

But, the above "solution" is not acceptable, as the c-clamp and the top scissor of the grounding clamp cover parts of my intended weld paths, AND wreck the ergonomics of my torch hold.

So, how do I improve the grounding another way?

Do I need to change to a steel, versus aluminum, tabletop? (Hate to do that as the steel would rust and potentially contaminate my aluminum workpieces)

Would a higher quality grounding clamp make a difference?

Or??

Jim G

 

[van123d]

If you are clamped directly to the workpiece and still having issues I would be very thorough inspecting all of the connections. It could be inside the machine as well that a nut is not tightened enough.

The fact that you are getting blue hf arc but it won’t switch into a stable arc is really strong evidence of a grounding issue. If there is a gap or weak connection HF will jump it while the 60Hz AC or DC arc will not. That’s why HF start works, it jumps the poor connection between the tungsten and the workpiece.

A new ground clamp could help if that was the issue, as could a steel table, but I wouldn’t invest anything until I had a better idea of the cause.

Just to be certain, when you plug your ground cable into the machine you are giving it a 1/4turn until it locks in tight? I only ask this because I saw this once during a welding course I took at the local college. Another guy was having the same problems you were, the instructor couldn’t figure it out either, reset the machine etc. Moved him to another station. At the end of the class when cleaning up I went to pack up that machine and found he had inserted the ground cable but never tightened it. It’s such an obvious thing nobody thought to check.