As stated early on in this thread a per month option is not an option...
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- Thread starter Jwest7788
- Start date
VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
Seeing some annual financial statements would make it easier for me to decide what level of contribution I want to make to the forum.
Also, like @jcdammeyer I'm not interested in automatic monthly charges or auto renewals.
Also, like @jcdammeyer I'm not interested in automatic monthly charges or auto renewals.
This outlines the costs: Depending on what the custom URL costs per year, the really large $250/month option requires 42 members while the smaller $100/month version needs only 17 members and the starter requires 10 members.
After that it's more a decision by the forum owners as to how much they want to be paid for maintaining the group which can eat up a lot of time that could be spent in the shop making chips.
VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
Thanks, @jcdammeyer . I don't understand the part about requiring 42,17, etc members. Do you mean paying memebers at an average of $xx ? I assumethe Xenforo pricing is in USD?
This outlines the costs: Depending on what the custom URL costs per year, the really large $250/month option requires 42 members while the smaller $100/month version needs only 17 members and the starter requires 10 members.
All the plans support unlimited # of members, it's the monthly page views and storage space that affect the cost. What are the stats for this forum?
You guys are assuming a lot of things about the forum costs. It usually isn't just the Xenforo subscription. I'll list a few you missed:
Provider Costs
Domain fees
Hosting fees
Server space & maintenance
Backup costs
To be fair, some of these are available in packages and not all forums require all these costs.
I don't view my premium membership as a donation to cover actual costs. I view it as a donation to help cover costs and generate a war chest or reserve to cover future costs as they arise.
I think you venture down a slippery slope if you start to nickel and dime everything to death. I'd bet big bucks that the founders spent money out of their own pockets to make this forum happen. I totally trust them to spend our premiums wisely.
I donate what I think is fair for me. And I leave it at that.
But ya, I don't like monthly either.
I'd like to see a basic one-time annual donation category of 60 or more (more being whatever you feel is appropriate).
I don't really like the silver gold platinum thing because then everyone knows what I gave. I'd prefer to pay what I feel like paying and then modify that each year based on how I feel about it at that time.... Giving less or more is a personal thing.
Provider Costs
Domain fees
Hosting fees
Server space & maintenance
Backup costs
To be fair, some of these are available in packages and not all forums require all these costs.
I don't view my premium membership as a donation to cover actual costs. I view it as a donation to help cover costs and generate a war chest or reserve to cover future costs as they arise.
I think you venture down a slippery slope if you start to nickel and dime everything to death. I'd bet big bucks that the founders spent money out of their own pockets to make this forum happen. I totally trust them to spend our premiums wisely.
I donate what I think is fair for me. And I leave it at that.
But ya, I don't like monthly either.
I'd like to see a basic one-time annual donation category of 60 or more (more being whatever you feel is appropriate).
I don't really like the silver gold platinum thing because then everyone knows what I gave. I'd prefer to pay what I feel like paying and then modify that each year based on how I feel about it at that time.... Giving less or more is a personal thing.
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I expect a monthly donation is actually better for the forum because it smooths out the cash flow.Ya, but but but I don't want my CC hit monthly
Thanks John for reminding us of all these hidden costs. Just so people know the forum isn’t a profit centre or side hustle or anything like that. It’s volunteer run and Josh’s company is subsidizing it with storage, bandwidth, servers and tech support. The little revenue generated from memberships covers xenforo and few other things. Like when we broke Alexander’s truck window moving the forum plasma table. I paid 1/3, Alex paid a third and the forum paid a third. If we had more revenue a shared space and making the plasma table available to members would be great. Until we get there with more revenue that is a just a gleam in our eyes. So memberships pay the real costs it takes to keep the forum going.
@Jwest7788 something to note different members are seeing different renewal options. There is something broken.
J
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VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
I didn't realize there were extra benefits for 'local' members. Something to keep in mind.
Umm no. There are not. There is the online forum. That’s it. The table was donated. Sometimes before Covid we would get together to eat some donuts. It was a buy your own affair too. I feel critiqued somehow Vic. I also found your desire for us to account on how we spend forum funds difficult to hear.
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Let’s stay with an annual fee of ‘minimum’ . . .
$60 + Inflation, due on the next renewal date.
Donations can be in excess of that and are purely voluntary.
I also do not care much for the levels of membership as @Susquatch mentioned above
and would pay to keep donations anonymous.
It is a privilege to be a member of a club and we all need to bear our share of fees.
How many times have I read in NEW member intros . . . that people have been looking for a Canadian group of machining and fabricating enthusiasts.
Sharing experiences should be an easy, economical and rewarding way of meeting like-minded individuals that wish to share their knowledge freely.
I think you are referring to the Calgary plasma table. As I recall, that was a donation to the forum from someone in Calgary and although it's in storage for lack of a place to put it, it was indeed intended to be available to Calgary local folks as per the donors wishes.
It would be nice if we had generous members through the country like that. But even if we did, I imagine there will always be some who are left out because they are too remote (a certain big hairy old farmer in Ontario comes to mind
).At any rate, CHMW is still growing and trying to fledge. There will be some up's and down's that go with that. In time, I imagine that we might be a much much bigger group with lots of new and cool benefits for everyone no matter where they are.
In the meantime, I'm not gunna throw any stones at the folks who give of their own time and resources to make this forum possible. All I want to do is offer some constructive suggestions, try to help where I can, and as I've said before, be grateful for the information, the friendship, the help, and the entertainment that the forum gives me.
VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
??? The forum fees helped to pay for the truck window that was broken moving a 'forum owned' (??) plasma table. With more (forum) revenue you mentioned perhaps renting a shared space to increase the benefits to local members. This should certainly be even more incentive for local members to pay-and pay more- to belong to the forum.
Forums seem to occupy an area somewhere between a private corporation (accounts are secret) and a club or non-profit, where accounts are available to the members or the public.
If a club executive asked for increased membership fees, it wouldn't be considered a criticism if a member asked for a copy of the annual budget.
It's unfortunate that you find that difficult to hear, but I certainly didn't mean it as a criticism or accusation. IMO, it's completely reasonable for the people who maintain the forum to get some payment. Back in the Dark Ages I ran a couple of BBS type online'forums' and I know how much work it can be.
And, IMO, the forum shouldn't be dependent on donated IT services from a member's company.
So there may be a good argument to be made for 'members' paying, and paying more to support the forum.
I think there might be a place for local member supported local member benefits. But one step at a time. We are miles from being able to do that right now!
I don't agree that the forum is someplace between a profit corp and a not for profit. I'd say that we are way over on the other side of the balance. In other words, the not for profit is the one in the middle, we are on one side of that and the corp is on the other side.
As a forum, we depend totally on the generosity of volunteers. I don't know about your BBS experience. I've done that too. I've also setup and run several forums. Both the BBS and the Forums I've run required ME to fund starting things up and I NEVER CAME CLOSE TO BREAKING EVEN!!!
Maybe that experience is what makes me appreciate the generosity of those who started this forum.
FWIW, everything has to start someplace. Starting requires work and money. I don't know the specifics of how much Josh's company pays, but I will say that without that, I doubt we would be here having this discussion! So let's not go there! In fact, if you can sing, maybe you can join me in a gentle quiet little lullaby like "Go to sleep, go to sleep, little company....."
Yes, I agree there is a good argument for members paying. But that too is a balance. Some of those who benefit the most might not be able to afford what it would cost. And new members might not join. And old members might quit. I think leaving it up to individuals to decide what they want to pay is a great balance.
Edit - let me just add one final thought. It's all working right now. I really don't want to break it!
VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
My preference would be for a small PayPal Donate button at the bottom of each page. Then when I got something of obvious value from a discussion, I could make a small donation.
Ex.: Got a lead on cheap Nicholson files- Bingo- Donate a few bucks
Ex: got some good hints on center drilling which solved an ongoing problem. Donate.
Ex:Got a deal on 1-2-3 blocks. Saved money on that; make a donation
Ex: Source for Bison chuck for 1.5x8TPI spindle...Donate.
It's quick and easy for me, no need to send my credit card info or sign up for a recurring payment. There are a couple of online sites and freeware apps I use that operate on the 'Donation' model, and I'm happy to shoot some money their way from time to time. I know it sounds like 'small change' but it probably could add up.
VicHobbyGuy
Ultra Member
I said:" there's a good argument to be made for members paying". By that I meant that I haven't yet heard the rationale for asking me to pay, not that I was proposing any kind of compulsory payment. I think that more transparency might encourage some folks (like me) to 'sign up to pay'.
Yes, you are correct in that. I got the impression that the impetus for running ads was that there were a lot of people reading pages here, and that ads could 'monetize' those visits. Apparently, the forum software has options for displaying the number of members, the number of page views, the amount of storage space used by files and media, etc etc. I wonder what fraction of the visitors register and become members (and why, or why not). If the ambition of the owners is to increase the membership numbers, that sort of data could be interesting.
My apologies. I guess I missed the nuance.
I don't think any rationale is required though. Unless you are a vendor, this isn't a business decision for you. Just ask yourself if you appreciate the forum or not and then ask yourself if you want to donate to help defray the costs.
I don't think transparency is required either.
Perhaps a small analogy will help to explain my thinking. It's sorta like asking the kid across the street to be more transparent and show you his receipts for the snow shovel he used to clean your driveway that he did for you free while you were at work before you give him a small donation as a thank you to let him know you appreciate what he did for you. For all you know, his parents gave him the shovel so maybe you shouldn't give him as much..... The fact is that you don't have to give him anything, but seriously?
The other problem with using words like "transparency" is that they come across like somebody thinks somebody is cheating. I truly believe you didn't mean to suggest anything like that, but that's how it comes across.
Yes, the forum and the server probably have tools like that. The ones I have used in the past certainly did. But they take time to use, interpret, and then report in a meaningful way. It's really not a piece of cake. Instead it takes time and effort by someone who is already doing us all a favour by donating their time, expertise, and resources to make the forum possible and keep it running smoothly. I am grateful for that and I really don't think we should ask or expect more of them.
Clearly they wanted/needed some financial help or we would not have the option to donate. I am more than happy to do so unconditionally.
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