The hypocrisy and unfairness in schooling

[Tomc938]

All profs want to hear is their own BS repeated.

I actually had an English prof I really appreciated in University. And this is from someone that got kicked out of grade 11 English - it was the teacher's fault, honest!

We had a fairly large section of the course studying a book called "The Magus." The prof actually did his PhD on how the book was basically a retelling of some Shakespeare play or something like that, and pulled out all the parallels. We had to do a term paper on the book, and he met with each of us to see where were we going to go with the paper, and give any advise he thought might be helpful.

My time came to meet with him, and I told him I didn't think his thesis was correct and I didn't agree with the connections he made in our discussions in class. He told me something along the line of "Well, if that's what you think, make your argument in your paper."

Got an A on it. Had a lot of respect for that guy. (But you are right, in most classes they want little parrots)

 

[Bandit]

The job I left school early for in 1974, was good for a 100bucks a day clear, not many were making that after just graduating. Not every day, but most of the days I worked.
Have to admit, them teachers had their hands full, and often still do even now. Are they teaching usefull stuff, wellll.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Wow!
I"m almost afraid to write down my experiences since they are so radically different. But here goes.
I loved high school. Took an extra year in fact.

Grade 10 continued on from grade 9 band playing tenor sax. Mediocre in most classes especially English!
Excelled in Music, Concert Band, Stage Band, formed a Dixieland Band, played in All City Band and All City Stage Band. Even was part of the Sing Out Edmonton Group known as "John The Saxophone Player". Up With People music. All through to Grade 12. Road trips to Fort Mac. Played Marching Band at Edmonton Eskimo Half time shows.

In Grade 11 met a band student who had started the Electronics 10,20,30 program. As I had electronics for a hobby I decided to take the grade 10 program which meant of course ultimately I'd have to take 4 years of high school. Best thing I ever did.

The other thing High School provided was "The Radio Broadcasting Club (RBC)" which we eventually renamed to CKJP. Played music before classes, during lunch and after school over the hallway intercom system. Learned more electronics, about radio etc. In fact a DJ at CHED radio named Len Theuson provided a CHED radio studio after midnight to help me make a decent audition tape. He also loaned me his Columbia School of Broadcasting Education system records to help me.

In Physics 30 Class I asked the Teacher why we were learning some of that stuff. He told me so we'd get our matriculation so we could be able to go to University. I didn't plan on that so I dropped the class the next day. Hitchhiked around northern Alberta over the Summer Soltice period dropping off 5 audition tapes. Got 4.5 job offers (one was part time hence the 0.5). I took the one at CJOI in Wetaskiwin -- 1440 AM on your dial. Played 2:15 hours of religious propaganda and then rock music until 1AM. Then recorded advertisements for the next day's programming.

Let's skip past meeting the girl, falling in love, and putting her through University while I worked at IBM repairing office products. The Selectric Typewriter was a wonderful mechanical marvel.

Eventually, and with prompting from another friend who had a Comp Sci degree was to go to Uni. I took summer courses to get that Physics and Chemistry class diplomas. Wish I'd redone math courses too. Anyway, the interviewing professor at UofA Engineer told me "Mature students don't do well in Engineering classes so we're not going to accept you". Class A1 jerk but did me a huge service.

My friend (may he rest in peace) suggested I go into Computing Science. No problem getting in and they had a Computer Design stream which let me take the good EE courses and none of the crap. Now it's called Computer Engineering but I learned AI, Compiler Writing, Embedded systems. It set me up for the future.

And here's the rub. Recall how I said I was average or below average with the English courses. That didn't change with English 210 in first year Uni. I needed one more Arts option for my degree and I'd already taken beginner violin (I have a silver medal for grade 2 when I was younger so I aced that course). At the end of 4th year I took an Expository Writing taught by a professor who's degree was in Shakespear but he'd worked for decades as a newspaper editor.

On the stanine system I got a 9 out of 9 in that course. It was a summer session, 5 days a week with a 1500 word essay due every friday for 6 weeks and a 10,000 word essay due at the end of the course. The equivalent of a full year class in the summer. To say it changed my life would be an understatement. One of his favourite expressions was that "everyone knows how to write" but "very few people know how to edit".

So where most on this thread have grumbled about English I look at that course as an eye opener. Wordstar on my computer also made a big difference compared to handwriting. And since then I've had several magazine articles published and even served as a book editor for a book on Battery Charging.

So I really don't have bad memories of high school or for that matter University.

And what I learned is if we can talk we can write. But to edit what we write is the hard part. And everyone on this list already knows I'm incredibly wordy..........

 

[slow-poke]

I find JC's comments about editing interesting.

My spelling and grammar are simply terrible. I like computer languages because they're so logical. From my perspective Latin languages are just filled with nonsensical rules, silent letters and silly gender nonsense, reminds me of the QWERTY keyboard.

My daughter's undergraduate program "Health Sciences" at Queens is a really tough program to get into, they only accept about 100 kids per year and my understanding is that if your high school grades are less than 98% your application goes straight into the shredder, then you need to have done something "special" outside of school. Anyways one reoccurring theme in that program was take this published article and reduce it by 50% without excluding any important information. Good luck with that if you have yet to master spelling and grammar, I would have failed miserably.

When I think back to high school English class, I don't understand why they focus on stuff like Shakespeare when half the kids (me included) had abysmal spelling and grammar skills.

 

[Susquatch]

Wordstar on my computer also made a big difference compared to handwriting.

You might be surprised to learn that I did some of the programming for Wordstar. I had written them a big letter with suggestions for improvements with enough detail and rationale that they came back with an offer for me to do it for them. We agree and they sent me the source code (the entire program was written in assembly language - which I think is the reason it eventually died) and let me go nuts. That was a wonderful time in my life.

I'm almost afraid to write down my experiences since they are so radically different. But here goes.
I loved high school. Took an extra year in fact.

Despite my earlier bitching, I think it's important to say that not all teachers are bad teachers. It's like most things in life - it's not black and white. In fact, I'd even go as far as saying that the majority are good and really do care. It's just that the bad ones ruin it for everyone. And it sounds like many of us on here were not exactly model students either (myself included). In my opinion, the biggest issues are systemic. Good teaching should be recognized and rewarded, students with potential beyond their grades should be identified and encouraged, and the education spectrum should recognize that we can't all be doctors and that the full spectrum of careers, talents, and skills have value. Greatly over simplified but that's generally how I feel with the benefit of a lifetime under my belt.

 

[historicalarms]

In fact a DJ at CHED radio named Len Theuson provided a CHED radio studio

Ohh man did that ever bring back some memories listening to Len & the rest of them late 60's early 70's Ched broadcasters, Len, Wes, Chuck, Bruce, KJ and the best of the best Bob McCord.

 

[BMW Rider]

So many stories I can relate to here. I was at best a C to B- student in junior high, got pushed into matriculation level courses in high school, failed terribly in grade 10 and never caught up. A good part of that was the teachers, part of it was my own disinterest as I struggled with the material. I would have spent all my time in shop class if I could have, hated Phys Ed. I too was the skinny weak kid and got paired to the biggest strongest farm kid (and bully) in wrestling. I refused, got kicked out and never went back. I finished my grade 12 year without enough credits and missing some key courses to get my diploma.

I went to work straight away with my dad in his auto repair shop and started my apprenticeship with him. Had my Motor Mechanics ticket by the time I was 22 and had done so with top marks in the mid to high 90s consistently. For my third year at SAIT, I had the highest overall marks for the entire year in the apprenticeship program and received an award for that, just missed it for my fourth year.

While I really liked all things mechanical and automotive, I knew it was not the lifelong career I wanted, but I had no idea what that would truly be, but I knew it would be something hands on. After joining the local Fire department as a volunteer, I discovered a passion for that and with the encouragement of another volunteer who was also a full time firefighter in Calgary, I decided to pursue that job. I needed to complete my diploma to achieve that goal and set to work doing all the math and English correspondence courses I needed for that. I did very well in those courses as I had a motivation to complete them and the format was better for me to learn under. I completed my grade 12 English course after writing the Provincial exam with a perfect 100% score (I do not in any way consider myself to be and English expert or writer of any calibre). Diploma earned, I applied to the City of Calgary FD, got hired and started what would be a dream career. I still enjoy mechanical work and just building and making things in general, but am glad I can choose what that is rather than having to do it to earn a living.

I don't know what path my life would have taken if I'd had better teachers and guidance in school, possibly would have ended up in the same direction but without some of the challenges to get there.

 

[pdentrem]

I took Business Admin and at that time we were required to take a Computer programming and the other was statistics.
Since this was at the beginning of computers starting to show up at home, think Commodore 64 and TRS-80. Apple still a couple years away with their iconic 1984 Macintosh commercial. Needless to say the computer stream people had a huge step up over us business ones. I failed that course, the only course I ever had a fail. The following year I retook the course like many of my fellow business students. This time the powers that be split the course for us lowly business people and had us learn how to use DBase and other programs instead of how to program!
The stats course was horrible. Drone and drone. Everybody failed the mid term except one brown noser. I passed the course by being slightly smarter than many of the others in class. The last two weeks, the prof went through sample questions from previous final exams. Since it was an open book exam, I wrote all of them in the text book. Turns out this was the complete exam! While I was transcribing from the text to the exam, I could many fellow students muttering about the prof having done these in class. I was out in 20 minutes with a few others. Passed and got a piece of paper in the end. I have almost never used it, I am better with my hands as a desk job is boring to me.
Pierre

 

[jcdammeyer]

You might be surprised to learn that I did some of the programming for Wordstar. I had written them a big letter with suggestions for improvements with enough detail and rationale that they came back with an offer for me to do it for them. We agree and they sent me the source code (the entire program was written in assembly language - which I think is the reason it eventually died) and let me go nuts. That was a wonderful time in my life.

Wow! I loved Wordstar!

Despite my earlier bitching, I think it's important to say that not all teachers are bad teachers. It's like most things in life - it's not black and white. In fact, I'd even go as far as saying that the majority are good and really do care. It's just that the bad ones ruin it for everyone. And it sounds like many of us on here were not exactly model students either (myself included). In my opinion, the biggest issues are systemic. Good teaching should be recognized and rewarded, students with potential beyond their grades should be identified and encouraged, and the education spectrum should recognize that we can't all be doctors and that the full spectrum of careers, talents, and skills have value. Greatly over simplified but that's generally how I feel with the benefit of a lifetime under my belt.

I agree. Teachers have been given a bad rap. That expression "those that can, do, and those that can't teach" is utter hogwash. The reality is that "those who can and do, are quite often very poor teachers".

My first flying instructor was like that. His idea of teach was to scream the same instruction over and over again in hopes that eventually I would understand. I have one example in particular but for the non-pilots probably won't make sense.

 

[YYCHM]

I have one example in particular but for the non-pilots probably won't make sense.

Share your example pls.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Share your example pls.

Well ok...
We were doing circuits at Edmonton Municipal Airport. This one was to be a power off touch and go. IIRC engine throttle is pulled back to idle, choke is pulled out to prevent icing. We glided in, touched and then I applied full throttle. As we accelerated and started to lift off again the instructor screamed at me "full power". "FULL POWER!"
I made sure the throttle was all the way in again. He still screamed "FULL POWER". At that point he then screamed "I HAVE CONTROL" and he took control of the plane and pushed in the choke.

Had he calmly initially said "Full Power means no Choke!" I'd have pushed the choke in and there wouldn't be an issue. There were other things like that too but this is the only one that stands out. I quit lessons with him shortly after that because I couldn't afford lessons and University.

Finished (restarted really) here in Victoria with a great instructor along with night rating, mountain check ride and both low wing and high wing aircraft types.

 

[jorogi]

Who was your instructor in Victoria ?

 

[jcdammeyer]

Who was your instructor in Victoria ?

Just pulled out my log book. First lesson 22JUN77 with Mr. Peterson in a C-150
First solo, get this: September 11th 1977.
Last flight 30SEP78 C-150 now with 35.8 instructor hours and 14.3 Solo hours

26AUG2001 first less on with M. Poland in C-152 at Victoria Flying club.
03OCT2001 first solo
Night ratings were done in a C-172
Mountain course and check rides in C-172 with Graham Palmer
Also checked out in Tampico TB-9 low wing.
Last flight 01OCT2003.

It was fun!

 

[Tom O]

I agree. Teachers have been given a bad rap. That expression "those that can, do, and those that can't teach" is utter hogwash. The reality is that "those who can and do, are quite often very poor teachers".

My first flying instructor was like that. His idea of teach was to scream the same instruction over and over again in hopes that eventually I would understand. I have one example in particular but for the non-pilots probably won't make sense.

Was it pull-up?!!!!!!

 

[pdentrem]

A good friend was taking his check ride. This was at Niagara District Airport. He had rented an aircraft and he and the examiner took off on 24. Shortly after clear the end of the runway and maybe 100 ft up, the engine went to idle. No throttle control. The choice was straight into the plowed field or return, which he did with a hard turn and land on 01. They exited the aircraft and both were naturally somewhat rattled. Turns out the throttle cable came off at the carb. The examiner signed off and my buddy got his license.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

Speaking about grammar ; In grade 4, a nun at St.Helens in North Burnaby taught us how to use English grammar. We moved, so I was only there for half a year, yet I was able with what she taught me to ace all grammar tests during high school. If a 9 year old kid can learn grammar.

 

[jorogi]

Just pulled out my log book. First lesson 22JUN77 with Mr. Peterson in a C-150
First solo, get this: September 11th 1977.
Last flight 30SEP78 C-150 now with 35.8 instructor hours and 14.3 Solo hours

26AUG2001 first less on with M. Poland in C-152 at Victoria Flying club.
03OCT2001 first solo
Night ratings were done in a C-172
Mountain course and check rides in C-172 with Graham Palmer
Also checked out in Tampico TB-9 low wing.
Last flight 01OCT2003.

It was fun!

I have the C140 Graham built his hours in.
It appears both Graham and Marcel are still there.

 

[Tecnico]

Speaking about grammar ; In grade 4, a nun at St.Helens in North Burnaby taught us how to use English grammar. We moved, so I was only there for half a year, yet I was able with what she taught me to ace all grammar tests during high school. If a 9 year old kid can learn grammar.

That’s the thing, at some point they decided that teaching grammar was not the way to teach English so even though (IMHO) I speak and write well it’s because it was spoken well at home and all around me so I learned it by example just like old fashioned respect and good behaviour.

Now, don’t ask me the names of all the parts of a sentence though because I can’t tell you what they’re called other than the fundamentals.

D

 

[DPittman]

Now, don’t ask me the names of all the parts of a sentence though because I can’t tell you what they’re called other than the fundamentals.

Yup when the kids were taking that stuff in school I knew the terms but had long forgotten what they were or or what they meant. Dangling participle anyone?

 

[Tecnico]

I agree. Teachers have been given a bad rap. That expression "those that can, do, and those that can't teach" is utter hogwash. The reality is that "those who can and do, are quite often very poor teachers".

My first flying instructor was like that. His idea of teach was to scream the same instruction over and over again in hopes that eventually I would understand. I have one example in particular but for the non-pilots probably won't make sense.

A lot of the problem with teachers is that they are supposed to “man” (woman) the assembly lines to run batches of students through and there isn’t enough time to give more personalized instruction or education advice. My mom was a teacher and she really cared.

I know there are very good teachers (and not so good…) out there but the system could be designed better to help students find their niche if they had the mandate and more resources but that’s hard to come by.

About flying instructors, you often get young and bright pilots who instruct for time (experience) building until they can get a “real” flying job on their way to the airlines. That’s OK because you get recently trained instructors but I don’t think they get taught to teach which is a rare skill. I’ve flown with some of those, they know what they want you to do but don’t have the communication skills to get the message across.

I prefer an instructor that is mature and doing it because that’s what they want to do even if it’s a side gig and can work with you to get the job done. They are gold.

D