The “free” First LC-1 1/2 VS Mill

Rauce

Ultra Member
Starting in a new thread in the right subforum.

This won’t be nearly as extensive as my Hendey project but there will be some work.

Attached are some additional photos @Canadium took yesterday.

The green battery powered forklift was a bit sketchy but saved some time and effort.

The lighter coloured mill being loaded by the yellow forklift is the machine that I moved in exchange for getting the old one.
 

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Rauce

Ultra Member
Right now the mill is being stored at a friends shop here in Hamilton. I’m not sure how soon I can get started but my plan is to disassemble all the major parts there and clean everything up (ram, table, saddle, knee, column ways, leadscrews etc.). I’ll take the head with me to diagnose the issue with that at my place.

The motor is 575v and no use to me so I’ll be setting that aside. How I’ll be powering it is still TBD.

One option is adapt a 2hp 3ph 220v motor to the vari speed mechanism and use the Teco 2hp VFD I already have powering my excello mill to provide 3ph power.

Option two is to use the clearpath servo I have and omit the vari speed mechanism for a fixed drive with the hi-lo gearbox still in use.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
3 Phase 575V? Can you get a VFD for that maybe?
All the 600v VFDs I’ve seen are 3 phase 600v in, 3 phase 600v out. So they really don’t solve any problem.

I don’t really have any interest in transformers or phase converters.

In the past I’ve always just replaced motors or had them rewound.

I’ll have to take a closer look at this motor, how it mounts and what kind of shaft the vari speed mechanism needs. Also the current height of the machine vs. The height of my ceiling in the garage could be a factor. Standard motors tend be be much longer than the purpose built motors on vertical mills.

With my old excello the motor is totally oddball. One can make an adapter flange and a shaft extension to get it to work (I have a friend that went that route) but I elected to have mine rewound to 220v for $450 instead.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
So I popped the motor off and took it with me to take some measurements of the shaft.

I’m starting to think the easiest and most cost effective way forward is to actually adapt the servo motor I have to the existing vari-speed mechanism. This will give me two methods of speed control, which is a bit redundant but makes for minimal work and cost since I already have the motor.

To make this happen I will have to make a shaft extension for the servo motor and a plate to adapt the flange mount.

The servo has a shaft 7/8” diameter and just over two inches long. The old motor shaft is 25mm for the first 1.5”, 24mm and then a small section at the end that fits a bearing (can’t recall that third diameter) and a total length of 6.3”. To make this work I will have to bore out the fixed half pulley with the 25mm bore. The extension will have to fit over 7/8” and 7/8” to 25mm doesn’t give much wall thickness.

I also discovered what could be the noisy problem the previous owner reported. The bore of the spring loaded sliding half pulley has worn significantly as well as the plastic key. At first I thought maybe a bushing was missing but the bore is tapered in a way that is consistent with how it’s loaded by the spring against the belt. The top end of the bore is 3mm oversize and the bottom end is only 1mm oversize.

Since I’ll be making a shaft extension anyways I can easily bore the half pulley out as well and make a new key.
 

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Rauce

Ultra Member
You are going to pull this off for next to free aren't you? Man, you suck....:p
Probably not since I want to to do a refresh of the upper head just for the sake of longevity. Bearings, belts etc. That will be a few hundred bucks.

The spindle bearings I won’t touch unless I see a reason too.

The motor side pulley halves have been bored, the adapter plate for mounting the servo is mostly done.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
Forgot to take pictures but I got a bit further into disassembling the head yesterday.

I got the top cover off and the VS mechanism out. It took a bit longer than it should have since one of the socket head screws holding the cover on had the hex socket stripped out.

Once that stuff was off, I messed around a bit with turning the input shaft. There’s definitely something wrong in the back gear assembly. In low the input shaft turns smoothly and the spindle turns smoothly on the opposite direction. In high the input shaft turns with resistance and clunks a few times with each rotation. The spindle doesn’t move. Seems like an issue with the clutch. I’ll know more once I get in there.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
So I was pleasantly surprised and simultaneously baffled/disgusted when I got into the back gear assembly today.

It turns out the reason the clutch wouldn’t engage and the spindle wouldn’t turn in high/neutral is that the whole back gear housing had been pumped full of so much grease that nothing would turn freely. In back gear the torque multiplication was enough to get it to move with some resistance.

I would estimate there was about 3 tubes worth of grease in there.

Just removing the cover and scooping a few handfuls out from around the bull gear was enough to get it turning freely.

I got all the small parts cleaned up but still need to finish getting the grease out of the housing. The gears, pulleys and clutch all look to be in excellent shape.

The lower head with the spindle spins freely with the back gear housing removed.
 

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Doggggboy

Ultra Member
So I was pleasantly surprised and simultaneously baffled/disgusted when I got into the back gear assembly today.

It turns out the reason the clutch wouldn’t engage and the spindle wouldn’t turn in high/neutral is that the whole back gear housing had been pumped full of so much grease that nothing would turn freely. In back gear the torque multiplication was enough to get it to move with some resistance.

I would estimate there was about 3 tubes worth of grease in there.

Just removing the cover and scooping a few handfuls out from around the bull gear was enough to get it turning freely.

I got all the small parts cleaned up but still need to finish getting the grease out of the housing. The gears, pulleys and clutch all look to be in excellent shape.

The lower head with the spindle spins freely with the back gear housing removed.
So..somebody told the apprentice to lube the machines??
 

Susquatch

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I would estimate there was about 3 tubes worth of grease in there.
So..somebody told the apprentice to lube the machines??

H&W advocates packing the gear system with Grease when rebuilding a machine.

I confess that this advice troubles me. When I redid my Hartford Head I applied a little grease as per the H&W instructions and then chickened out. I cleaned most of it out, and primarily went with the original oilers. I may come to regret this but it's working great right now. If it ever does act up, it's easy to disassemble it. When I do, my plan is to remove all the grease and go with oil only.

I have no problem adding a little oil as needed and my guts tell me that I will have problems with the grease some day.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
I confess that this advice troubles me. When I redid my Hartford Head I applied a little grease as per the H&W instructions and then chickened out. I cleaned most of it out, and primarily went with the original oilers. I may come to regret this but it's working great right now. If it ever does act up, it's easy to disassemble it. When I do, my plan is to remove all the grease and go with oil only.

I have no problem adding a little oil as needed and my guts tell me that I will have problems with the grease some day.

I’ve watched the H&W video and looked at the Sharp (same factory as First) manual.

The amount of grease they put in during a rebuild is no where near what I found. It seems often a zerk fitting is omitted since adding grease isn’t really necessary. It seems to me it should only need to be replaced during a rebuild.

Notably in the H&W video the grease only goes around the edge of the gears at the bottom of the housing, where they engage. In this case the grease was right up the top of the housing and packed into the clutch and under the timing belt pulleys.

I can check my head again but I don’t think there’s an oiler that goes to the gears? I think there’s one going to the spindle bearings, one for the power quill feed gears and one for the bearing under the bull gear.
 
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Rauce

Ultra Member
The plant I work at has a lot of electric motors. Probably thousands in all sorts of sizes. The real big ones usually have plain bearings with oil pressure lube but some of the medium sized ones have roller bearings and are big enough that rebuilding them is cost effective. The motor shops seem to love putting in shielded bearings and leaving the zerks on the housing with no way tell that the bearings are shielded… a few motors has been wrecked by grease building up inside the motor over time after a rebuild.
 

manualmachinist

Member
Premium Member
I just disassembled a chuck which wouldn’t open or close freely; it took far too much “elbow grease” to do so. (Sorry about the lame joke.). Turns out the chuck innards were stuffed with grease. Thinking that may have been the problem - even though the grease was original to the chuck and applied by a reputable manufacturer - I removed all the grease as best i could and replaced it…but sparingly. Result? Chuck “fixed”: it now opens and closes swimmingly.
 

Susquatch

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I can check my head again but I don’t think there’s an oiler that goes to the gears? I think there’s one going to the spindle bearings, one for the power quill feed gears and one for the bearing under the bull gear.

One of the most common farm equipment failures I see is forgetting to grease things regularly. In virtually every problem case I've worked on, the grease hardens and blocks the grease ports. It has to be pumped in until it squirts out the ports. Any system that is designed without ports, can't flush or push dirt out. That's why I didn't like the grease in the back gears.

The back gear oiler on my Hartford has a tube that directs oil to the spindle bearings. Oil also drips on the gear body and centrifugal force flings it out to the gear teeth.
 

Rauce

Ultra Member
I would think that farm equipment is a much tougher environment. More moisture, wider temperature swings etc.

The back gear housing is fairly sealed up, not a lot of ways for contaminants to get in. I think a good comparison would be a shielded or sealed bearing which is greased for life from the factory.

That said I do like the back gear lubrication of the excello head. It’s an oil bath with a sight glass and there’s sealant on the top and bottom split lines and shaft seals to keep the oil in. Surprisingly does not leak at all as long as the head stays more or less upright.
 

Susquatch

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I would think that farm equipment is a much tougher environment. More moisture, wider temperature swings etc.

And that's just the beginning! Yes, I have no doubt that a mill's life is more like a vacation in Hawaii compared to farm use.

But still, I don't like the idea of a gear chamber packed with Grease that never gets changed or flushed. A zirc fitting allows the user to push in new grease and the old contaminated grease gets pushed out. With oil, the oil circulates, metals can settle, and old oil leaks out to be replenished with new.

I don't think a sealed bearing is a good comparison. Sealed bearings have tightly controlled surfaces, exceptional wear characteristics, and a special factory grease designed to lubricate and distribute heat in the bearing over its entire life.

Sliding splines, gear teeth sliding over each other, and unsealed bearings have much higher wear rates, and therefore metal particles and contamination accummulates. Even the grease is just plain old grease designed for regular zirc based grease changes.

My guts tell me that oil is better because oil will flow due to gravity and spinning forces, and it will flush or wash wear particles out with it.

Do I know this for a fact? No. It's just a gut feeling.

My guess is that H&W knows that many hobbiests don't do the regular oiling that's required and therefore grease packing is better than infrequent oiling or no oiling at all. In that sense, I think he is right. My experience is that even farmers don't regularly grease equipment that costs 50x as much as a mill does. Why should most hobbiests with much less expensive equipment be any better?

Therefore, my opinion is that anyone who has the discipline to oil their machines on schedule should stick with oil. Those who know that their habits are not that disciplined should pack their heads with high quality grease.

It's just an opinion though.
 
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Rauce

Ultra Member
The only issue I see with oiling it is that at least my machine and the original Bridgeport design specify grease and don’t have a proper oiler for the bull gear. The only oiler in that area is for the sliding shaft/bore that the bull gear goes up and down on. This part does not spin so the oil is contained. If you put oil in through the grease port it won’t reach the gear, it will just run down inside the housing.

The original spec is lubriplate 105, a very light grease that is compatible with oils.

The problem with regularly adding grease, even if there is an exit point for it to get flushed out is that it will pack up completely and cause problems just like what I found.
 
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