@Susquatch continued discussion

[jcdammeyer]

When you talk about pitching it, a big part of me wants to go hide somewhere and cry.

So many memories.

I think those of us here who helped Pioneer all this stuff made a big difference in our day. If not for early adopters like us, computers might never have grown to be the big business they are now and we would all still be using mechanical calculators and slide rules. I have no idea what the critical mass was at the time, but I'll bet it was a very fine line.

Beer/wine/booze/pop is on me if you want to join me.

Makes me sad too which is why I keep all that junk. For example, the 486DX100 served me very well with both WIN-3.1 and then WIN-NT before I upgraded to WIN-95 where then it slowed down. But now, for $50 (when they are available) a Raspberry Pi4 will do more faster.

 

[Susquatch]

Makes me sad too which is why I keep all that junk. For example, the 486DX100 served me very well with both WIN-3.1 and then WIN-NT before I upgraded to WIN-95 where then it slowed down. But now, for $50 (when they are available) a Raspberry Pi4 will do more faster.

Just a suggestion.....

About 10 years ago, I bought a networked file server that I used to store all the data for the family and my consulting business after retiring. It had Raid backup built in and ran on a proprietary version of Linux.

About a year later, it crapped the bed. I soon discovered that raid is wonderful IF a hard drive craps out but its USELESS if the raid controller itself craps out. What a F&<[g disaster! I spent MONTHS rebuilding the file allocation table and then the files. In the end I got as much back as was worth getting back, but I vowed NEVER to trust RAID (of any type) again.

In the end, I used an old desktop that ran Windows XP (which I still think was the best Windows EVER - Windows 7 was good too) and installed multiple hard disks with separate controllers to effectively build my own file server. And I later added plain network storage to do backups the old fashioned way.

You get the idea. That old machine of yours is probably plenty fast enough to become an excellent local backup system or a great file server. Best of all, you probably understand how it works way better than these stupid Windows 11 systems.

 

[Dabbler]

but its useless if the raid controller itself craps out.

I ran a Windows 10 file server using hardware RAID using a very expensive RAID controller. After 5 months the RAID controller wouldn't talk to one of the disk banks. The disks were fine. The controller crapped out. -- 3.5TB of data lost. (almost). After dickering with it for a while and using a IR camera, I found the faulty component (proprietary, of course, not fixable or replaceable, of course). I went back to the manufacturer, and they'd replace it on warranty, but then all my data would be gone... permanently.

So by using a cooling spray ( the component was overheating) and copying the data to a portable hard drive, 100 MB at a time, and shutting the machine off for a day, then doing it again, in just over 2 months later I had 90% of my data back.

I'll never RAID again.

I now use QNAP servers and manually back up to 2 other QNAPs, but now I have 24TB and need a week to do the copy. Still 100% better that RAID and I always have 2 copies of the data at any time. BTW Windows craps out around 8TB, so I break the copies into 4 separate segments) Yes I have 72 TB of disks for 24 TB of data.

No I don't use rsync. No I don't use the QNAP built in copy function. I have a very bad history with those. I had to fix clients UNIX systems that had a rsync crap out. I still need counseling for the PTSD. I'm a Luddite now.

 

[StevSmar]

About a year later, it crapped the bed.

That sucks, glad you were able to get most of your data back.

I used to be so careful with backups, lately there’s a small voice inside me thinking: “Wouldn’t it be nice to lose all this data and start again…” (I have the photos backed up online…)

…understand how it works way better than these stupid Windows 11 systems.

Now it’s my turn to chuckle…

 

[Susquatch]

I ran a Windows 10 file server using hardware RAID using a very expensive RAID controller. After 5 months the RAID controller wouldn't talk to one of the disk banks. The disks were fine. The controller crapped out. -- 3.5TB of data lost. (almost). After dickering with it for a while and using a IR camera, I found the faulty component (proprietary, of course, not fixable or replaceable, of course). I went back to the manufacturer, and they'd replace it on warranty, but then all my data would be gone... permanently.

So by using a cooling spray ( the component was overheating) and copying the data to a portable hard drive, 100 MB at a time, and shutting the machine off for a day, then doing it again, in just over 2 months later I had 90% of my data back.

I'll never RAID again.

I now use QNAP servers and manually back up to 2 other QNAPs, but now I have 24TB and need a week to do the copy. Still 100% better that RAID and I always have 2 copies of the data at any time. BTW Windows craps out around 8TB, so I break the copies into 4 separate segments) Yes I have 72 TB of disks for 24 TB of data.

No I don't use rsync. No I don't use the QNAP built in copy function. I have a very bad history with those. I had to fix clients UNIX systems that had a rsync crap out. I still need counseling for the PTSD. I'm a Luddite now.

When anyone around me mentions how wonderful Raid is, I start twitching...... It is the stupidest technology ever invented. A friend of mine makes fake teeth and keeps all his data on raid servers. I tried telling him it was a huge problem waiting to happen. He insisted it was awesome and told me about losing several disks and not even skipping a beat. Then he lost a controller....... He couldn't do what you did. And he couldn't pay me enough to do it for him either. Boy was he pissed. Worse, he figures it was my fault for not taking a baseball bat to his head!

 

[Susquatch]

I used to be so careful with backups, lately there’s a small voice inside me thinking: “Wouldn’t it be nice to lose all this data and start again…” (I have the photos backed up online…)

I'm jealous. At farm internet speeds, I can't even think about cloud based storage.

 

[jcdammeyer]

I'm still using 2006 Windows Home Server. It's become a bit unreliable, I think because the WIN-7 disk is now too big and it doesn't do well with more than a 2 TByte drive. I have the newer WHS given to me by a friend. It couldn't work with my WIN-7 laptop but did with the WIN-7 workstation. Now I'm typing this on a WIN-10 HP ZBook which is backed up every night by the 2006 WHS.

Anyway, periodically I have to reset the home server. The network access fails during a backup. Really should upgrade to the newer WHS.

The key thing about WHS which doesn't exist with the other backup systems is that if the hard drive on the PC fails, you replace it, then insert the CD and boot from it. It goes out and finds the server. Then asks which system you want to restore. A few hours later the new hard drive is a perfect copy of the original failed one down to the registry and keys for locked programs.

Microsoft doesn't make it anymore. Sadly.

 

[Susquatch]

It goes out and finds the server. Then asks which system you want to restore. A few hours later the new hard drive is a perfect copy of the original failed one down to the registry and keys for locked programs.

Microsoft doesn't make it anymore. Sadly.

I assume you mean searches the cloud. .....

That would never work for me.

Why do all these outfits get rid of the good stuff and replace it with crap!

Can't you make your own backup system that simply clones hard drives?

 

[StevSmar]

Can't you make your own backup system that simply clones hard drives?

I use a Synology NAS system, I’ve been thinking of putting a second hard disc into it but have rationalled that it would be unlikely to loose the laptop and the NAS at the same time (I can’t imagine using rotating off site storage for the information I’ve collected… it’s just not that important to me anymore)

 

[jcdammeyer]

I assume you mean searches the cloud. .....

That would never work for me.

Why do all these outfits get rid of the good stuff and replace it with crap!

Can't you make your own backup system that simply clones hard drives?

That would take too long and too much space. Overnight there are only so many hours. I believe the system works like this:
1. Examines the drive for files that have changed or been added since the last time.
2. Creates a list of those sectors and saves them.

Now:
1. When you realize you just deleted a file you then run the WHS console.
2. Select the machine.
3. Select the back up date
4. Select the volume.

What it does is create a Z: drive on your PC that links to a mirror of your C: drive as it was on 24/03/2022. I believe it does that by recreating the image of the drive based on the sectors that have been changed.

On my WHS I also have a server drive which has photos, music, copies of the projects folder etc. That I back up to a USB connected hard drive every once in a while if I've added things to that server drive.

 

[Susquatch]

I use a Synology NAS system, I’ve been thinking of putting a second hard disc into it but have rationalled that it would be unlikely to loose the laptop and the NAS at the same time (I can’t imagine using rotating off site storage for the information I’ve collected… it’s just not that important to me anymore)

Another different friend of mine uses the Synology system too. Near as I can tell it suffers the same weakness as my Linux system did - proprietary disk controller. Hence my suggestion to use a standard controller and standard disk structure.

I agree that the likelyhood of losing both is low. Not that it can't happen, but as long as there is no interdependency, it is low. And ya, I'm not storing anything on the cloud at rural data speeds.

I keep a lot of data that I wouldn't want to lose. So my system is setup to do rotating system wide backups at night using local storage. I also keep, a separate storage unit out in the barn in case something ever happened in the house. It's almost as good as off-site storage.

 

[Susquatch]

That would take too long and too much space. Overnight there are only so many hours. I believe the system works like this:
1. Examines the drive for files that have changed or been added since the last time.
2. Creates a list of those sectors and saves them.

Now:
1. When you realize you just deleted a file you then run the WHS console.
2. Select the machine.
3. Select the back up date
4. Select the volume.

What it does is create a Z: drive on your PC that links to a mirror of your C: drive as it was on 24/03/2022. I believe it does that by recreating the image of the drive based on the sectors that have been changed.

View attachment 22745

On my WHS I also have a server drive which has photos, music, copies of the projects folder etc. That I back up to a USB connected hard drive every once in a while if I've added things to that server drive.

I considered a system like that too. I guess I just wasnt comfy with something like sector based comparisons. Mind you, that's fresh out of manually rebuilding a 2TB raid system sector by sector. I just went straight to copying changed file content on a regular basis and entire disks on a monthly basis. The file server part of my home network is separately routed and hardwired so it's plenty fast enough to do that.

 

[Former Member]

In terms of computers, I cut my teeth on a KIM 6502 processor and 1k memory, I manually built a 2k upgrade, on to WANG basic (extremely flexible), HP Basic (this made all other languages easy), HP calculator Programmming and Reverse Polish Notation, Fortran, Pascal, and a couple of others.

As to cloud computing personally the initial concept seemed like a good idea however with current computers and computing powers the it is the greatest scam to waste power and control your data and ownership of programs diminishes. We could save the worlds power consumption by 30%, if we could every close that pandoras box.

As to CAD nanocad is not bad (currently only doing 2d), CAM I'm using Intercon (Centriod) to write my G-code. It does ok and teaches me the concepts. As I optimism I learn the secrets, currently it has just been about getting stuff up and running.

The machine I use is for machining is a new Dell i5 laptop (meets/exceed min spec required by Centriod CNC12) with touchscreen, WIN10 (will not upgrade to WIN11) until software used is proven to be compatible by others. This machine does not connect to the internet.

Acorn CNC controller, Step and Direction 4 axis CNC Control board with ethernet communication.DIY CNC kit

Acorn Do-it-Yourself CNC control board for Mills,Lathes,Routers,and other Machine tools. Mach3 replacement CNC controls for new machine tools as well as Retrofits for older NC machinery

www.centroidcnc.com

One thing I have learned over the years, when starting is use best current tech you can afford, gives the best and longest future proofing, long term least headaches and lowest cost.

 

[Darren]

Its funny to read all the comments on RAID failures. I've had my share. I used to run RAID 0 for speed. Lost a lot of data. Anyways, I have probably 40 older drives kicking around, a bunch of controller cards, several older PC's from years past, and was just thinking this morning that I should toss together a backup server, maybe 2 of them and backup as much data as I can in an organized manner. I won't be running any type of RAID array thats for sure.

 

[DPittman]

I find it intriguing that so many hobby machinists on this forum are also experienced computer programmers/nerds.
I unfortunately do not have any of those talents and ironically I am probably younger than many of those that do.

---

 

[Chicken lights]

I find it intriguing that so many hobby machinists on this forum are also experienced computer programmers/nerds.
I unfortunately do not have any of those talents and ironically I am probably younger than many of those that do.

---

Agreed! Some of these old codgers are pretty sharp

 

[Susquatch]

Its funny to read all the comments on RAID failures. I've had my share. I used to run RAID 0 for speed. Lost a lot of data. Anyways, I have probably 40 older drives kicking around, a bunch of controller cards, several older PC's from years past, and was just thinking this morning that I should toss together a backup server, maybe 2 of them and backup as much data as I can in an organized manner. I won't be running any type of RAID array thats for sure.

Another option that I've been kicking around for a while now is to rebuild two desktops with huge disk capacity and use them for network storage and to duplicate each other. I suppose I could also put one of the two into the shop which is on the same home network (high speed gateway) to provide fire redundancy.

 

[jcdammeyer]

I joined a facebook group for S-100 computers last week. It's really quite amazing how many people that are out there who still like to play with the old hardware. I have 3 (that were working) machines on shelves here. And lots of extra boards from other machines. Even a graphics array of 5 boards that did screen captures. There's a similar set on ebay for $2K. Original cost was almost $18K that we paid and ended up eating because the customer bailed and legal costs were higher than it was worth chasing.
CAT1600 on Ebay
http://www.autoartisans.com/S100/CAT1600-Brochure.pdf http://www.autoartisans.com/S100/CAT1600-Prices.pdf

Here's the smallest with an 80186 processor board and DTS-520A disk controller on the far side for the Hard and floppy drives. Two serial ports out the back. I've been thinking of reconditioning the capacitors and seeing if it still boots. Can't find the manuals for it.

 

[Susquatch]

HP Basic (this made all other languages easy), HP calculator Programmming and Reverse Polish Notation, Fortran, Pascal, and a couple of others.

A few (very few) of the members know that I once entered an HP Calculator Programming Competition. I programmed one of those things (an HP41CV) to play chess. Not just moves and what not, but to play strategy with as many levels of depth as you could tolerate waiting for - which was about 7 levels. That meant analysing every possible combination of moves to 7 levels. It was MUCH faster at 5 levels and played pretty darn good chess. It was also brute force - no memory of positions or famous games. Just what I called raw strategy.

I didn't even place. Unbelievable. Guys won with stupid stuff like solving arrays, differential calculus, calculating Pi to 100 digits.

The guys I worked with theorized that the judges either didn't believe it could actually do that or.... They never played chess and had no way of knowing what that meant. I was a VERY SORE LOSER....... That took months to write that program. As an interesting side note, I actually wrote most of the analysis and the move logistics in Fortran and then wrote a compiler to convert each line of Fortran code into HP Programming Language.

As a young man who only needed a few hours sleep, I had a total blast. All moaning and groaning aside, it was even more fun to beat myself at the game with a program I wrote. The big difference was that the calculator didn't make stupid or emotional moves. It just sat there relentlessly grinding away till the clock limit or the set depth was reached.

 

[jcdammeyer]

That's impressive. I couldn't have done that with my HP41CV which died many years ago now. However I do still use an HP32 and have the HP apps on my phone and PC.

Using RPN was also done in the FORTH language which was completely stack based As an example I drew up the outline of what our new kitchen renovation would look like on an S100 graphics card I wire-wrapped using the NEC upd7220 graphics chip. The graphics utilities were all written in FORTH.

You can just see the outline in the monitor beside my babe. This photo is from the 70's hence the hairstyle.

And here's the graphics board front and back.