We bought these from Spaenaur a few years ago, for some repair work. Extremely malleable.
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Tool Solid Rivets
- Thread starter djberta
- Start date
Tool
Yes, changed a fair few on cutter bars over the years! Loved it when I found the bolt sets for it, made it very nice for changing and often reusable. Cutting in rock country you became somewhat good at it and often had the scars to prove it. The hand cranked tool was a slight step forward until the push out pin broke!
When buying aircraft you don't want the soft (type A) rivets you want the harder type AD for most things. They are much stronger. The AD ones will work harden when you drive them. I wouldn't use either of these on a heat shield. Something like monel would be better. You should be using stainless and not aluminum for a heat shield. Unfortunately they are harder to obtain. They are more heat resistant than the Type A or AD rivets. Soft is a relative term they cam all be driven with a pneumatic gun and a bucking bar.
Jswain
Joe
I did quite a few 3/16" solid aluminum rivets on an old aluminum boat.
Took an air hammer bit and cut the end square then used a drill bit to indent the end and a Dremel to smooth it out. For the small side I ended up using a railway spike to hold against it. Couple seconds and looked real good. Wasn't using anything fancy for an air hammer either.
Took an air hammer bit and cut the end square then used a drill bit to indent the end and a Dremel to smooth it out. For the small side I ended up using a railway spike to hold against it. Couple seconds and looked real good. Wasn't using anything fancy for an air hammer either.
DPittman
Ultra Member
I have an aluminum jon boat with a rotted out wood transom. The top corners are welded in and seats and the rest of it is held in with solid rivets. I've been wondering how to go about this repair. I've read about guys using SS bolts and I was/am leaning towards that. This thread has been helpful.
@DPittman just roll solid rivets, you wont have any corrosion issues, they don't have the chance of coming loose, they are inexpensive and they really are a cinch to install
the advantage of a proper rivet gun is they have much finer control, Obviously you can use an air hammer, and with a 3/16 rivet and a thick aluminum boat hull its probably no issue, by the look of the rivet sets i have for my air rivet gun im sure they would fit an air hammer if a guy didnt want to make a set as @Jswain did, just add it to the order when buying the rivets
the advantage of a proper rivet gun is they have much finer control, Obviously you can use an air hammer, and with a 3/16 rivet and a thick aluminum boat hull its probably no issue, by the look of the rivet sets i have for my air rivet gun im sure they would fit an air hammer if a guy didnt want to make a set as @Jswain did, just add it to the order when buying the rivets
Jswain
Joe
That was exactly the repair I was doing, as well as replacing any missing rivets. My top corners were all rivets tho.
For all the bolts thru the hull/plywood I used SS fasteners & 3m 5200, you can get a small tube at ctire for fairly cheap. never leaked.
I used 3x 3/4" exterior ply, 2 on the inside & 1 smaller piece on the outside of the hull. Covered with a few coats of clear epoxy, and then a few coats of marine spar varnish
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Definitely get the right size Cleco's and a pair of pliers. Better even, is to spring for a couple handful of the 3/32 size (uses a #40 drill bit), to use while you are laying out and roughing out your lines, as the holes will be pretty easy to freehand with a #40 drill bit. If you walk the hole a wee smidge out of line, the holes still line up great when you drill to final size.
On a long seam, Cleco every second or third hole, rivet the empty ones, and then remove the Clecos, or move them to other holes in the pattern, if you have lots of holes, and limited Clecos. Simple trick to avoid having the holes get progressively out of alignment as you go down the seam. Watched a very unhappy co-worker destroy an expensive helicopter panel over just such, trying to force the alignment back after it was way too late! Fit up your panels, drill the holes, deburr them, then get the final assemble underway.
Dig around the interwebs for a copy of the AC 43.13 Structural manual, and read the info on rivets and riveting, their is a lot of good info there, not only for Aircraft repair.
Heck, here ya go! https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_43.13-1b_w-chg1.pdf
Off the top of my head, the rivet sizes are denoted by two numbers, (aka "Dash Numbers". The first is the diameter, in 1/32 increments, IIRC, the second is the usable shank length (measured from the head on countersunk rivets, and from under the head on domed ones) in 1/16ths of an inch. If you know the thickness, and the diameter you need, you can decide what size you want on hand in advance so as to get the normal 1 1/2 diameters of protrusion.
I have done, I would estimate, a bunch over my body weight in installed solid rivets, Spent the last 12 years I worked, doing aircraft structures work in the Forces. My last riveting project was grafting two sections of Land Rover hard top roofs together so a friend could get a relatively reliable fit from the windshield top seal. We cut the front off a roof that was damaged, and was the wrong length, but matched the windshield frame, and added that to the front of a used roof of the correct length, but was for a later series machine.
I'll double down on Aircraft Spruce and Specialty! Get their catalog! Anyone around here that can flip through it and not get a BUNCH of ideas start going off in their heads like fireworks, is likely to need to be watered rather than fed, if ya catch my drift.
ALL sorts of solutions to problems you probably did know you had! Lots of used tools to be found on ebay too. I paid less than $100 for a recoil damping pro grade 3X size rivet gun that the supplier said did not run (as he apparently, I figured) just hooked it to air and tried it without a tool in it... Worst case, as I saw it, if I had to have it overhauled and pay less than half the new price, it'd still have been a deal! A crappy old cheap air hammer can be worked with, though the triggers on them are a lot harder to control when you want to have things turn out 'just so'. They have some pretty flash, high priced stuff, but I found that their prices on stuff like rivets and tools was pretty decent, and, you know that the tools will fit!
It helps a bit to understand the way a rivet reacts to the force applied. If you are hand setting them esp., as, if you apply a bunch of light hammer strikes, the end you are hitting tends to peen over without expanding the rivet to grip the panel. Handy if you want to use that rivet for a hinge, but if you wan the rivet to set properly, a fairly sharp single blow, will expand the whole length of the shank of the rivet to grip the hole sides, as well as to form the head. We used to use a steel or aluminum block drilled to take a regular rivet snap from our pneumatic rivet guns, for most hand setting. With care we could use a flat nosed punch to avoid a mis-strike dinging up the work. As suggested too, , if you are not really concerned about the rivet heads meeting a particular spec or Standard, you can save on the rivet snaps, and just form a near enough depression on a block of steel to be held in the bench vise, or just sat on the work bench.
On a long seam, Cleco every second or third hole, rivet the empty ones, and then remove the Clecos, or move them to other holes in the pattern, if you have lots of holes, and limited Clecos. Simple trick to avoid having the holes get progressively out of alignment as you go down the seam. Watched a very unhappy co-worker destroy an expensive helicopter panel over just such, trying to force the alignment back after it was way too late! Fit up your panels, drill the holes, deburr them, then get the final assemble underway.
Dig around the interwebs for a copy of the AC 43.13 Structural manual, and read the info on rivets and riveting, their is a lot of good info there, not only for Aircraft repair.
Heck, here ya go! https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_43.13-1b_w-chg1.pdf
Off the top of my head, the rivet sizes are denoted by two numbers, (aka "Dash Numbers". The first is the diameter, in 1/32 increments, IIRC, the second is the usable shank length (measured from the head on countersunk rivets, and from under the head on domed ones) in 1/16ths of an inch. If you know the thickness, and the diameter you need, you can decide what size you want on hand in advance so as to get the normal 1 1/2 diameters of protrusion.
I have done, I would estimate, a bunch over my body weight in installed solid rivets, Spent the last 12 years I worked, doing aircraft structures work in the Forces. My last riveting project was grafting two sections of Land Rover hard top roofs together so a friend could get a relatively reliable fit from the windshield top seal. We cut the front off a roof that was damaged, and was the wrong length, but matched the windshield frame, and added that to the front of a used roof of the correct length, but was for a later series machine.
I'll double down on Aircraft Spruce and Specialty! Get their catalog! Anyone around here that can flip through it and not get a BUNCH of ideas start going off in their heads like fireworks, is likely to need to be watered rather than fed, if ya catch my drift.
ALL sorts of solutions to problems you probably did know you had! Lots of used tools to be found on ebay too. I paid less than $100 for a recoil damping pro grade 3X size rivet gun that the supplier said did not run (as he apparently, I figured) just hooked it to air and tried it without a tool in it... Worst case, as I saw it, if I had to have it overhauled and pay less than half the new price, it'd still have been a deal! A crappy old cheap air hammer can be worked with, though the triggers on them are a lot harder to control when you want to have things turn out 'just so'. They have some pretty flash, high priced stuff, but I found that their prices on stuff like rivets and tools was pretty decent, and, you know that the tools will fit!It helps a bit to understand the way a rivet reacts to the force applied. If you are hand setting them esp., as, if you apply a bunch of light hammer strikes, the end you are hitting tends to peen over without expanding the rivet to grip the panel. Handy if you want to use that rivet for a hinge, but if you wan the rivet to set properly, a fairly sharp single blow, will expand the whole length of the shank of the rivet to grip the hole sides, as well as to form the head. We used to use a steel or aluminum block drilled to take a regular rivet snap from our pneumatic rivet guns, for most hand setting. With care we could use a flat nosed punch to avoid a mis-strike dinging up the work. As suggested too, , if you are not really concerned about the rivet heads meeting a particular spec or Standard, you can save on the rivet snaps, and just form a near enough depression on a block of steel to be held in the bench vise, or just sat on the work bench.
The ones I have for our John Deere mower-conditioner, are a bastard size at, IIRC, 5.5mm diameter x 5/8ths inches long. Local Lordco stocked them, apparently. I would count on the Deere dealer (or about any Ag supply house) would have them around.
We actually have the Deere tool for replacing teeth in situ, as well as the 'anvil' tool for doing it in the shop. I find it a lot easier to work standing up so I just pull the blades when and if needed, and use a big bloody hammer to shear the rivets off the damaged teeth, punch out the remains and get on with it. The anvil tool has a hardened steel insert with a dimple in it, that pretty closely matches the dome of the head, a solid smack with the hammer to set the one you have in, shuffle the cutter bar to the next rivet head rinse, repeat as required. Most of the few who are still running sickle cutters, are switching to bolt on, rather than riveted teeth.
@trevj sorry for the discussion detour but sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have thought about getting a pop rivet system for weekend warrior stuff because I don't have a welder (yet) & in some applications rivets would be suitable. I've heard they are 'not as good' as solid for a few reasons. I've heard they don't fill the hole quite the same way (or as reliably), variations in setting force (maybe do to pop mechanism or rivets themselves?) different protrusion footprint...multitude of other factors. So nixed for commercial or military. Having said that (I'm dating myself) we had a guest speaker in one of our structures class, Mr. Z? (of Zenair) & he did a whole dissertation on pop rivets essentially saying they will never be equal but they can be pretty good or at least pass safety factor limits where something else will fail first IF they are integrated correctly & thats where most of the problems lay. Now this was a homebuilt perspective which removes most of the liability stuff. Won't make a difference on my garage projects but just wondering because I see a lot of land based recreational stuff getting tortured that is pop riveted on structural components.
hey, this is the guy!
www.kitplanes.com
hey, this is the guy!
Aircraft Construction, Riveted Joints (Part 2 of 2)
All-metal aircraft construction, riveting. (Part 1 of 2)
www.zenithair.com
Blind Rivets: Look Closely - KITPLANES
Many aircraft kits are designed around the use of blind rivets—also known as pulled rivets or “pop” rivets (POP rivet is a trademarked name). For Experimental aircraft, the blind rivet can give traditional solid riveting a run for the money. This is because if we compare the two riveting...
www.kitplanes.com
Ironman
Ultra Member
Soft iron rivets used to be common to hold knife section on a sickle bar mower. Now they use bolts, but I would check on this at an ag supply store. Or maybe on here.
@PeterT If you thinking of getting a pop rivet gun (blind rivet, pulled rivet whatever) just buy one, pop rivets although not as good as a bucked rivet are still very handy, for the relatively low cost of a manual rivet gun you really can't loose
They are not as strong nor have any where near the same clamping force, but they are quick, easy and have plenty of uses
A note about the zenairs/zeniths and other pop rivets home builds, they all still have bucked rivets in the wing spars
They are not as strong nor have any where near the same clamping force, but they are quick, easy and have plenty of uses
A note about the zenairs/zeniths and other pop rivets home builds, they all still have bucked rivets in the wing spars
DPittman
Ultra Member
And for a better hold with pop rivets use SS steel rivets over the aluminum ones. I agree pop rivets are not for everything but sometimes it's all that is needed and it's easy and looks okay.
Yeah, pop rivets have a relatively limited amount of strength compared to some other methods, but you can't beat them for being effective and cheap, in places that you don't need the absolute strength. But you can use almost any length of pop rivet and get about the same results, as long as it's not too short for the work. As to them not being suitable for commercial or Military use, I think you would be really surprised! LOL!
There are several other blind rivet systems that ARE pretty strong, though they are not nearly as cheap. Cherry Lock and Cherry Max rivets I am most familiar with, we used another system that used self limiting force, by way of shearing off the nut that tightened them up (which I cannot for the life of me, recall the name! DoH!), that used a threaded stem which pulled a collar up a tapered section, to grip the panels. There are several others. The Cherry system uses a steel center pin, plus a locking wedge that swages around the stem, as it breaks off, essentially locking that stem in place. Their downside, aside from cost, is that you really do need to gauge the thickness of your material closely, as they must pull up tight as the lock engages.
There are several other blind rivet systems that ARE pretty strong, though they are not nearly as cheap. Cherry Lock and Cherry Max rivets I am most familiar with, we used another system that used self limiting force, by way of shearing off the nut that tightened them up (which I cannot for the life of me, recall the name! DoH!), that used a threaded stem which pulled a collar up a tapered section, to grip the panels. There are several others. The Cherry system uses a steel center pin, plus a locking wedge that swages around the stem, as it breaks off, essentially locking that stem in place. Their downside, aside from cost, is that you really do need to gauge the thickness of your material closely, as they must pull up tight as the lock engages.
Color. Look in the post in this thread that tells you, above, @phaxtris, post #17, or look in the Tools catalog I linked above in post #28.
Spring Clamps? We Called those Side Grip Clamps, if they are what I think you are describing. Same pliers, but like a heavy duty, much smaller C-Clamp or Crowfoot Clamp?
Advel Clamps is another system in wide use.
Edit: @phaxtris beat me by a few seconds...
A lack of imagination, is all it takes to make them useless!
Seriously, Sheet Metalwork, where they originated, is amazing. But car bodywork, and things as inane as drywall (gonna rile up the drywallers! LOL!) can see an advantageous use of these. Anywhere you want pices of about anything, to line up for a row of fasteners!
And I only bring Drywallers in, because I actually knew a guy that used them! He had to put up multiple layers of 1/4 inch board up in a compound curved ceiling to make it thick enough to meet fire code. He used Clecos.
Sledge hammer as a backer, and a ball peen hammer. Give a few taps, move to the next one. Grew up on a lake and we used to do that on leaky rental boats to tighten and seal them up.