"small" lathe tooling - any pointers?

M

mjautek

Member
Hi all,

so I've got this Lorch LLN that I bought a couple years ago, recently I've had to use it a couple times to make a few small pins/shafts and it got me thinking that maybe it's time to actually tool up to make it more useful and less of a comedy item in my shop.

The parts I've used it for so far has been in the "would get lost in my other lathe's chip tray" kind of size - last weekend it was a pin 1.1mm dia x 3mm long or a M1.6 threaded insert 3mm max OD x 3mm length. So not quite watch part size stuff but small by my standards at least (I repair old cameras for a hobby because I have alot of old cameras and they are always breaking and that's what these parts were for).

SO my question is: do any of you have any suggestions on where/what to get for decent but OK priced tooling for a machine like this? I think I will give PCB drills a try for small drills and skip buying a 100$ #61-80 set but I could use some pointers for the rest: boring bars / tap and die / ??? I guess I'm wondering if I should try some of the clock / watchmaker supply places since I know nothing about that world - or is that stuff all overpriced and I should look elsewhere?

sdfsdfsdfsdfsdf.JPG
my Lorch LLN (baujahr 1954) - it's very old timey and has plain spindle bearings but is probably the only machine in my shop that is not absolutely beaten to death


dsfsdfsdfsf.JPG
1.1 x 3mm pin - cleaning up the nub from parting


sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf.JPG
tapered axles for an injection moulded plastic gear from an instant film back


cheers,
Eugene


p.s. does anyone have a tripan 011 they would sell me so that I don't have to buy one from switzerland for like 400$ lol
 
Susquatch

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
mjautek said:
SO my question is: do any of you have any suggestions on where/what to get for decent but OK priced tooling for a machine like this? I think I will give PCB drills a try for small drills and skip buying a 100$ #61-80 set but I could use some pointers for the rest: boring bars / tap and die / ??? I guess I'm wondering if I should try some of the clock / watchmaker supply places since I know nothing about that world - or is that stuff all overpriced and I should look elsewhere?
Click to expand...

I can't really help much. I'd like a small lathe but I don't have one. However, this picture of yours screams at me.

dsfsdfsdfsf.JPG

If I were you, I'd get some High Speed Tooling instead of that brazed carbide. You might be able to buy preground HSS tools, but I'd put my money into a nice grinder and a handful of high quality HSS Tool Blanks.

I might be preaching to the choir, but your photo suggests otherwise.

I'm in the process of embracing indexable carbide but that isn't the same as brazed carbide at all. The business case for indexable carbide is totally different. I've bought brazed carbide in the past. For the most part it rots in my tooling drawer. HSS kicks its ass out of the park.

Sorry for the rant. But it is what I thought the second I saw that photo.
 
gerritv

gerritv

Gerrit
Very nice lathe, those bearings will last forever if kept lubricated.
I use my Sherline for clock parts, hence the sources below.

Buy 1/8 or 3/16 blanks from KBC Tools: https://www.kbctools.ca/catsearch/212/square-tool-bits
I have never seen a Tripan 011 for sale in Canada, I have looked for years, to the point where I started to make my own (project on hold). The 1/8 work decently as gravers as well if fitted to a handle.

Luis Ally has a very highly regarded tool post/cutter set aimed at Sherline users: https://tryally.com/ Carbide inserts, brazed or indexable, are a waste of money for this sized work.

61-80 and similar metric set: https://Accusize.ca, buy 2 sets because as you already know they are delicate. Or make you own from sewing needles ground into spade drill configuration. Accusize is also on Amazon if you are more comfy with that.

Mini tap/die set: https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/hss-mini-imperial-tap-set-unf-unc/ or https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/mini-metric-tap-set/ Chronos are also on eBay if you are more comfy with that.

For smaller ones I would look at screw plates and related taps, e.g. .7->2mm https://www.europeandesign.ca/14-pc-tap-set-in-wood-box-70mm-2-0mm-6127prod.html (CA$33)

For tiny boring bars, AliExpress: e.g. this is an excellent store for tiny ones https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000771457988.html

gerrit
 
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T

trevj

Ultra Member
Susquatch said:
I can't really help much. I'd like a small lathe but I don't have one. However, this picture of yours screams at me.

View attachment 46854

If I were you, I'd get some High Speed Tooling instead of that brazed carbide. You might be able to buy preground HSS tools, but I'd put my money into a nice grinder and a handful of high quality HSS Tool Blanks.

I might be preaching to the choir, but your photo suggests otherwise.

I'm in the process of embracing indexable carbide but that isn't the same as brazed carbide at all. The business case for indexable carbide is totally different. I've bought brazed carbide in the past. For the most part it rots in my tooling drawer. HSS kicks its ass out of the park.

Sorry for the rant. But it is what I thought the second I saw that photo.
Click to expand...
Ayup. Brazed carbide tools are really only worth owning, if you actually understand (and have the tooling for) that they are a prefabricated blank, that needs to be ground to final shape before use. You do need a carbide grinder to do a decent job, as well as either a diamond wheel or diamond lap to put the final edge finish on.

That said, I do have a carbide Graver by Waller, for use on my WW pattern lathe. It has it's place, but mostly, I use (and used, while I was still working) a LOT of HSS!

Learn to grind a decent tool from HSS and you will never be without, or stuck waiting for replacements to come in!

It is educational to read up on the heat treatment that is required to anneal HSS. It will take any and all fears of 'softening' the bit, because of heat build up on the grinder wheel. I taught my apprentices to grab the bit blank in a pair of Vise Grips, and to lean on that thing like it owed them money! Allow to air cool well below black temperatures (ie: no longer glowing) before cooling it in the water pot.

I'll add that some of the British Model Engineering authors, like George H Thomas and a couple more, have published a lot of decent designs for small lathe tooling, tap and die holders, tool posts, etc., that can easily be scaled to suit the tooling that will fit appropriately on the Lorch.
 
I

Ian Moss

Well-Known Member
Just for fun....small lathe (Derbyshire). Quick change toolpost with tangential hss cutter installed. 10mm collets, microscope with micrometer travel.
 

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M

mjautek

Member
Susquatch said:
I might be preaching to the choir, but your photo suggests otherwise...
Click to expand...
Haha, this is actually just plain 'ole HSS... I haven't used brazed carbide in ages. the picture looks deceiving I guess.


gerritv said:
Very nice lathe, those bearings will last forever if kept lubricated.
I use my Sherline for clock parts, hence the sources below.

Buy 1/8 or 3/16 blanks from KBC Tools: https://www.kbctools.ca/catsearch/212/square-tool-bits
I have never seen a Tripan 011 for sale in Canada, I have looked for years, to the point where I started to make my own (project on hold). The 1/8 work decently as gravers as well if fitted to a handle.

Luis Ally has a very highly regarded tool post/cutter set aimed at Sherline users: https://tryally.com/ Carbide inserts, brazed or indexable, are a waste of money for this sized work.

61-80 and similar metric set: https://Accusize.ca, buy 2 sets because as you already know they are delicate. Or make you own from sewing needles ground into spade drill configuration. Accusize is also on Amazon if you are more comfy with that.

Mini tap/die set: https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/hss-mini-imperial-tap-set-unf-unc/ or https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/mini-metric-tap-set/ Chronos are also on eBay if you are more comfy with that.

For smaller ones I would look at screw plates and related taps, e.g. .7->2mm https://www.europeandesign.ca/14-pc-tap-set-in-wood-box-70mm-2-0mm-6127prod.html (CA$33)

For tiny boring bars, AliExpress: e.g. this is an excellent store for tiny ones https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000771457988.html

gerrit
Click to expand...
Thanks! just what I was hoping for.
 
T

trevj

Ultra Member
FWIW, ebay was where I finally got a Tripan 111 tool post for my Myford. Like, 10 years of watching and waiting... And just a few days later, another one showed up on Practicalmachinist for a very good price, and was bought by a friend of mine...

The little wee 011 posts come up from time to time, but you really need to be ready to pounce, as they either have a reasonable Buy It Now price, or the owner is trying to wring out almost retail for them.

You could do worse than to contact these folks. https://www.nielsmachines.com/en/ . There are a couple similar outfits operating out of England, search for Model Engineering Machine Tool Sales, and you should find a couple of them. Can't hurt to put the word out that you are looking, and what you are willing to pay. Though I would bet that what you are willing to pay, much like me, is probably going to get at least chuckled at by the dealer... But, gotta try!
 
M

mjautek

Member
trevj said:
FWIW, ebay was where I finally got a Tripan 111 tool post for my Myford. Like, 10 years of watching and waiting... And just a few days later, another one showed up on Practicalmachinist for a very good price, and was bought by a friend of mine...
Click to expand...

I happen to have 3 tripan 111s (lol), one came with my Holbrook minor (it was a factory accessory funny enough - weird for a british lathe) and two of them came from a really good deal on ebay kleinanzeigen that an instagram friend in germany very generously bought on my behalf and mailed. helps to have friends on the other side of the pond I guess.
as a funny side note - none of the 3 are exactly the same and I suspect they were each made in a different country (france, germany and switzerland)



I'm sooooooo tempted to buy a new 011 from quality tools in switzerland but I just did some quick cad and 3d printed a rough mockup and...
sdsdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf.JPG
yeah if I paid 400$ or so for this I'd be pretty mad. if I cant find one used I should really just make one myself, this looks like 5$ in material haha
 
gerritv

gerritv

Gerrit
This is the state of my modeling, would save a lot of time if somene who has a real one would measure up the internal components. I drew this up from peaking at Stefan G' build of this tool post so I am quite confident in the dimensions.

If you scroll through this feed you can see another company making them: https://www.instagram.com/lancaster_watch_tools/

gerrit
 

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T

trevj

Ultra Member
mjautek said:
I happen to have 3 tripan 111s (lol), one came with my Holbrook minor (it was a factory accessory funny enough - weird for a british lathe) and two of them came from a really good deal on ebay kleinanzeigen that an instagram friend in germany very generously bought on my behalf and mailed. helps to have friends on the other side of the pond I guess.
as a funny side note - none of the 3 are exactly the same and I suspect they were each made in a different country (france, germany and switzerland)



I'm sooooooo tempted to buy a new 011 from quality tools in switzerland but I just did some quick cad and 3d printed a rough mockup and...
View attachment 46867
yeah if I paid 400$ or so for this I'd be pretty mad. if I cant find one used I should really just make one myself, this looks like 5$ in material haha
Click to expand...
I dunno about being mad, at the price. I suspect the sting would fade pretty quickly, in actual use! Tripan is SO easy to make holders for too. The shape of the 'outside' tool holders, is a pretty good fit down the side of a hex bar of suitable size. I have about half a gallon bucket full of holders now. Made them in 18 inch or so long sticks and cut them off en mass.

I made my clone of a 111 basically by using the two factory tool holders I did have, as the basis for the dimensions, plus a little info off the Tripan product page. getting the cam action sorted out whilst 'winging it' was about the most complicated part of the project, and that was, well, not very complicated...

I figure that what you get for the money, is the hardened and ground, reasonably precise dimensions of factory.

But you could reasonably make the post out of aluminum or brass and if you ever wore it out, make another one. It's not like it has to endure the abuse from a wage monkey that doesn't really care about the tooling, which seems to me the most compelling reason that hardened and ground finishes are so ubiquitous.
 
T

trevj

Ultra Member
gerritv said:
This is the state of my modeling, would save a lot of time if somene who has a real one would measure up the internal components. I drew this up from peaking at Stefan G' build of this tool post so I am quite confident in the dimensions.

If you scroll through this feed you can see another company making them: https://www.instagram.com/lancaster_watch_tools/

gerrit
Click to expand...
What program is that file for?

When did Stephan do the Tripan 011 clone? I must have missed that one!
 
jcdammeyer

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
gerritv said:
This is the state of my modeling, would save a lot of time if somene who has a real one would measure up the internal components. I drew this up from peaking at Stefan G' build of this tool post so I am quite confident in the dimensions.

If you scroll through this feed you can see another company making them: https://www.instagram.com/lancaster_watch_tools/

gerrit
Click to expand...
Not everyone uses Fusion. Can you provide it as a STEP file?
 
Susquatch

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
gerritv said:
and a partial drawing to get an idea of scale
Click to expand...

You just opened a MASSIVE door for me Gerrit! Till just now, I had no idea that you could access Fusion from your smart phone! Here is a phone screen shot!

Screenshot_20240419_084455_Chrome.jpg
 
jcdammeyer

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
My friend Joe Mac. converted this to step. Now I can get measurements or even tweak it. Are there drawings for the rest of the tool holder parts?

1713546158192.png
 
M

Mcgyver

Ultra Member
I've built a miniaturized version to work on 8mm lathes. Was going to do it as an article in the mag (THE mag lol, Home Shop Machinist). imo that addresses a huge problem.... I mean what is there out there in WW QCTP? There is little need for watchmakers I guess, almost all work is done with gravers by hand, but for us machinist types ...... I can barely get near a lathe without a QCTP! bunch of photos here https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/an-adventure-in-lost-resin-casting.9140/#post-134672

There are just two internal parts, the plunger and the eccentric lock. I don't have photos yet but will try and get some together.

I do have one the smallest size Tripans, whatever number that is, I could pull measurements off it if that is what you are after.
 
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