Downwindtracker2
Well-Known Member
Nah, some international (US) auction outfit handled the mill closure . I did buy my wood lathe at one of Abel auctions . They are worth keeping an eye on if you are in search something.
RF-45 Mill/Drill Done
- Thread starter Downwindtracker2
- Start date
Thanks. I would be interested in repair and upgrade of yours and others rf 45's.
Downwindtracker2
Well-Known Member
I haven't done any upgrades, I just repaired to good , but not new, status. My journey is in my posts in this thread.
The one thing not mentioned was the gearbox. I had added 75-140 syn gearoil when I got it. While the motor was off, I changed the oil. This time I used the recommended 100 hydraulic oil. I had to get it at a tractor dealership. It was such old stock it was cheap ! Before 3 high was noisy to the point I was thinking I may have to change it. There was a YouTube video with someone doing a gearbox rebuild on a 45. Do able but not fun. After the oil change, I still have high speed gear noise, but not to the point of being worrisome. It's just 3 high anyway. If you find a used one, run all six speeds.
A standard milling machine check is to wind the table to both ends. You should be able to judge your ways and lead screw. How much slop in the center versus tightness at the ends.
For cost if I'm bidding on a nice one at an auction, I break off at 1/3 new. With my used pick ups I joke I pay a dime on the dollar and a quarter in parts. Totaled up my mill was under that for parts but not by much. Before I took the motor to motor repair shop I pointed out a new King 45 in a KBC flyer to my Chief Financial Officer.
I mentioned it before but it's worth mentioning again. The most important feature on a milling machine is Not DRO, rather power down feed. This allows you to get a decent bore. A mickey mouse hack is to use a drill on the down feed handle. Not many RF-45s have power down feed. And the head raising rack on RongFu is too sloppy.
A mill is handy. I overhauled a Powermatic #26 clone wood shaper. Another dime on the dollar machine. With a wood shaper, the fence is critical. A common answer is to buy an aftermarket one. At the time they were $700 USD +. The parts were there, they just didn't work. With the milling machine I was able to true faces, tap acme threads and slot. I have a fine fence now.
The one thing not mentioned was the gearbox. I had added 75-140 syn gearoil when I got it. While the motor was off, I changed the oil. This time I used the recommended 100 hydraulic oil. I had to get it at a tractor dealership. It was such old stock it was cheap ! Before 3 high was noisy to the point I was thinking I may have to change it. There was a YouTube video with someone doing a gearbox rebuild on a 45. Do able but not fun. After the oil change, I still have high speed gear noise, but not to the point of being worrisome. It's just 3 high anyway. If you find a used one, run all six speeds.
A standard milling machine check is to wind the table to both ends. You should be able to judge your ways and lead screw. How much slop in the center versus tightness at the ends.
For cost if I'm bidding on a nice one at an auction, I break off at 1/3 new. With my used pick ups I joke I pay a dime on the dollar and a quarter in parts. Totaled up my mill was under that for parts but not by much. Before I took the motor to motor repair shop I pointed out a new King 45 in a KBC flyer to my Chief Financial Officer.
I mentioned it before but it's worth mentioning again. The most important feature on a milling machine is Not DRO, rather power down feed. This allows you to get a decent bore. A mickey mouse hack is to use a drill on the down feed handle. Not many RF-45s have power down feed. And the head raising rack on RongFu is too sloppy.
A mill is handy. I overhauled a Powermatic #26 clone wood shaper. Another dime on the dollar machine. With a wood shaper, the fence is critical. A common answer is to buy an aftermarket one. At the time they were $700 USD +. The parts were there, they just didn't work. With the milling machine I was able to true faces, tap acme threads and slot. I have a fine fence now.
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Stefan built a motorized gear reduction driving the worm shaft, which is much finer feed & leverages off its mechanical advantage (small motor). I don't see how you could power the down feed (drill press mode) handle shaft with any kind of control for boring, any drill is bound to be too fast RPM for the amount of movement.
I have a power down feed question - but 1st some background:
- I’m getting along just fine without a power down feed (pdf) on my MD45 (got it new from Modern Tool a few months ago). But even though I’m a novice to milling, I do understand the many benefits of a pdf. Modern Tool list pdf as an option on the MD45 but only if it comes from China that way and I didn’t want to wait the extra 6 months.
- I did install a Ditron D80 DRO + a power X feed. They are not difficult to install, are great additions, and I use them both all the time. I think I’d put those accessories ahead of the pdf - but maybe I’d have a different option if I’d experienced a pdf on a similar mill before purchasing mine.
- I have a full set of chucking reamers (for diameters less than 5/8” imperial + metric sizes) that I’ve been using on my drill press for quite awhile. They smoothly and accurately finish a hole and seem to replace the need for a pdf. Yes - drill and ream is a 2 step operation but this retired guy has lots of time.
- Shortly after getting the mill i got a boring head. I’ve only experimented with it. Using the boring head i have achieved very accurate 7/8” and 1” diameter holes that have a very smooth finish. Not fast but a very good quality hole.
- I’ve often considered (wanted) getting a mag drill and a set of annular cutters but I just couldn’t justify the cost when i have no real need (need vs want).
SO FINALLY THE QUESTION:
- iIf I get a set of weldon annular cutters for the mill, will this improve my drilling of holes in the range of 7/16” to 1 1/16” enough that I won’t be forever wishing I had a pdf???
Note 1: I’m considering the Accusize 13 piece set 7/16” - 1 1/16” by 1/16ths @ $243.
Note 2: I don’t ever expect to need to do power tapping.
Note 3: Joining this Forum has been very helpful and enjoyable. Thanks.
- I’m getting along just fine without a power down feed (pdf) on my MD45 (got it new from Modern Tool a few months ago). But even though I’m a novice to milling, I do understand the many benefits of a pdf. Modern Tool list pdf as an option on the MD45 but only if it comes from China that way and I didn’t want to wait the extra 6 months.
- I did install a Ditron D80 DRO + a power X feed. They are not difficult to install, are great additions, and I use them both all the time. I think I’d put those accessories ahead of the pdf - but maybe I’d have a different option if I’d experienced a pdf on a similar mill before purchasing mine.
- I have a full set of chucking reamers (for diameters less than 5/8” imperial + metric sizes) that I’ve been using on my drill press for quite awhile. They smoothly and accurately finish a hole and seem to replace the need for a pdf. Yes - drill and ream is a 2 step operation but this retired guy has lots of time.
- Shortly after getting the mill i got a boring head. I’ve only experimented with it. Using the boring head i have achieved very accurate 7/8” and 1” diameter holes that have a very smooth finish. Not fast but a very good quality hole.
- I’ve often considered (wanted) getting a mag drill and a set of annular cutters but I just couldn’t justify the cost when i have no real need (need vs want).
SO FINALLY THE QUESTION:
- iIf I get a set of weldon annular cutters for the mill, will this improve my drilling of holes in the range of 7/16” to 1 1/16” enough that I won’t be forever wishing I had a pdf???
Note 1: I’m considering the Accusize 13 piece set 7/16” - 1 1/16” by 1/16ths @ $243.
Note 2: I don’t ever expect to need to do power tapping.
Note 3: Joining this Forum has been very helpful and enjoyable. Thanks.
I believe the answer is yes.
Those annular cutters make an amazing hole. In my case, they look reamed.
I have a power down feed but I have never used it. Never needed to. Doesn't mean I won't some day, but so far not.
On the other hand, my annular cutters...... Ya, I use them all the time.
But because they cut annularly, they do a good job of cutting out corners or rolls or troughs or holes.
I don't have a full set though. I just buy them as I need them. Looking back on it I wish I had bought a set from the beginning. I sometimes have to wait a week for the one I need.
My set is growing......
To be transparent though, I am actually afraid of using my power down feed. Ever wonder why it's broken on most Bridgeports? Because that's what happens if the auto release sticks and the drive overloads. Which is easy to happen. So I avoid it.
My two cents worth. YMMV
Thanks @Susquatch - guessing I’m heading in the right direction.
Yes but maybe for different reasons. They make a reasonably clean hole with a lot less fuss & downforce & torque than a big drill or series of drill. As a bonus you also get a slug of material to use vs a pail of useless swarf.
But, just like a drill, they are limited to their diameters & drill depth based on cutting flutes. If need a slightly different diameter for whatever reason, say to fit a shaft or bearing, that's where the boring head comes in to hit that diameter (and finish combination). Consider the annular cutter a straight through pilot hole. Same goes for a counterbore or any kind of ledge. Annular cutter doesn't do you much good at partial depth.
Depending on your intended work, I'd consider 2" vs 1" for the cost difference. You can get the same diameter range, but can handle increased thicknesses over the 1". I've purchased TMX brand from KBC but they are a lot more expensive & I cant tell the difference between Accusize. There can be a cost benefit to a set but depends on your needs. Same goes for the ejector pin, sometimes its useful, sometimes its a hindrance I I don't bother. I've also seen these sets in metric on Aliexpress for less cost yet but I haven't tried them myself.
And here I thought it was a pilot! But ejector makes great sense!
I leave that pin in the drawer too.
You make some good points about partial holes.
And I don't know why I didn't mention stock savings. That's a great point. I always plan my projects to save stock if I can. The short cylinders left after an annular cut are a nice bonus.
I'm not sure what your 1 & 2" reference is about Peter. All of mine take a 3/4" Weldon shank. Unless you mean length. Most of mine are 2" but I have a few 3". I don't have any 1".
Yes cutting length
2" Cutting Depth, H.S.S. Annular Cutters with 3/4" or 1-1/4" Weldon Shank, CBN Ground, ANSI Standard
The annular cutter is typically for the following tools and solutions: annular cutter, core drill, core cutter, broach cutter, trepanning drill, hole saw, cup-type cutter, annular cutter 1/2, annular cutter 5/8, annular cutter adapter, annular cutter 3/4, annular cutter drill adapter, annular...
and for new buyers, Weldon shank tooling is different than regular toolholders like for end mills. Whether its required or desirable, see debate #22-304-197 (kidding)
Weldon Shank for Drill-Use Annular Cutter on Drill Press or Milling Machine
The Accusize morse taper shank is commonly used as the following tools (and solutions): morse taper shank, r8 shank, annular cutter adapter, core drill adapter, core cutter adapter, broach cutter adapter, trepanning drill adapter, hole saw adapter, cup-type cutter adapter, morse taper shank...
Thanks but more clarification please -
Is a weldon shank holder required?
Will my R8 3/4” collet only work for smaller diameter cutters or will it hold tight enough even for the 1 1/8”?
I was actually thinking that a R8 3/4” collet would be better - does tightening a weldon holder add unnecessary essentricity?
Then - at what size do you need a holder?
Is a weldon shank holder required?
Will my R8 3/4” collet only work for smaller diameter cutters or will it hold tight enough even for the 1 1/8”?
I was actually thinking that a R8 3/4” collet would be better - does tightening a weldon holder add unnecessary essentricity?
Then - at what size do you need a holder?
I believe the annular cutters come in straight shank or Weldon shank with the flat. I have Weldon so cant really speak to straight with ER. It should work but depends I suppose. I do think there is some torque on the larger diameters cutters though, the retention is there for a reason. Also some people use AC's traversing over an edge or coping tubing, ie. interrupted cuts which likes to loosen things. The Weldon holders also accommodate the election pin assembly up in the shank so you wouldn't have that capability with ER. In terms of accuracy the dedicated Weldon are typically hardened & precision ground sockets, no issues there if its a decent tool.
Also I just noticed this. In Weldon they have 1" & 19.05mm shank (which I think looks suspiciously like 0.75"). Now I have to go check mine. I don't remember seeing 2 different sizes but its been a while since I ordered
Also I just noticed this. In Weldon they have 1" & 19.05mm shank (which I think looks suspiciously like 0.75"). Now I have to go check mine. I don't remember seeing 2 different sizes but its been a while since I ordered
I don’t have ER collets but a set of R8 collets (actually 2 sets, imperial and metric). Each R8 collet has a smaller size range than an ER type but i understand they have better grip.
But that’s rather a mute point now since I’ve decided a weldon holder is the way to go (and also not a big expense).
I had thought about the weldon advantage for larger diameters but you pointed out 2 more significant other advantages: when coping pipe; and drilling off edge holes (or overlapping holes).
So thanks for your input.
CW
But that’s rather a mute point now since I’ve decided a weldon holder is the way to go (and also not a big expense).
I had thought about the weldon advantage for larger diameters but you pointed out 2 more significant other advantages: when coping pipe; and drilling off edge holes (or overlapping holes).
So thanks for your input.
CW
Been a busy day. Sorry I am so late. Prolly too late. But your last note suggests it's ok.
The Weldon shank has two flats in it. They serve two functions - to hold the tool more firmly and also to center it. As I understand it, there is a very slight clearance to allow easy installation AND the slight eccentricity is removed with the two screws. So you definitely want the Weldon shank.
Mine are all 3/4. I discussed the shank size vs the cutter length in an earlier note with @PeterT.
I don't think the bigger shank is required. 3/4 is plenty.
The Weldon shank has two flats in it. They serve two functions - to hold the tool more firmly and also to center it. As I understand it, there is a very slight clearance to allow easy installation AND the slight eccentricity is removed with the two screws. So you definitely want the Weldon shank.
Mine are all 3/4. I discussed the shank size vs the cutter length in an earlier note with @PeterT.
I don't think the bigger shank is required. 3/4 is plenty.
Annular cutters substituting for power down feed started this derailment.
Thanks @Susquatch and @PeterT for your above comments.
- When I pull the trigger on a set of annular cutters (shortly I hope) they will certainly be weldon. I'll also get a R8 cutter holder arbour.
- I am a bit puzzled that the set screws on the arbours I've seen are at zero and 90 degrees. I'd have thought that the set screws would be opposite each other (at zero & 180 degrees). The zero/90 configuration looks like it would affect eccentricity. I guess the set screws don't need a lot of pressure since they are acting on the relatively large flat- so I won't overtighten them.
- My delay responding (to the above post) is because I have been learning about annular cutters.
Wooooo - lots of choices. Lots to learn.
I've decided I don't need carbide cutters. Therefore I've narrowed it down to either standard HSS or HSS alloy cutters. At least a 6 piece set or maybe 13 piece set if it seems like a good deal. So I'd like Forum opinion on the following 3 choices (or similar choices that I should consider).
1 - Accusize 13 pc set at $258.00 less $15 coupon: 13 pc set 7/16" to 1 1/16 by 16th x 1" cut depth (HSS M2)
2 - Evolution A-CC6SET-1, 6 piece set 9/16" to 1" diameter x 1" cut depth (HSS M2Al)
Note: 1 & 2 are tied
3 - Velor 6 piece set, 7/16" to 1 1/16" x 2" cut depth (HSS M2) - - - - Velor not as popular or well known but attractive price.
FYI 1: While looking for info about the M2Al steel that Evolution uses, I found this link comparing HSS with aluminum or cobalt (M2Al or M42 respectfully)
www.atmcn.com
FYI 2: Evolution: ebay indicated they are HSS M2Cobalt. Amazon indicated they are HSS M2Al. I started a chat with Evolution, they were quick to respond and confirmed that they are made from M2Al.
FYI 3: I work with either mild steel or aluminum, occasionally stainless steel.
FYI 4: cutters are for the mill - no mag drill in sight.
Thanks @Susquatch and @PeterT for your above comments.
- When I pull the trigger on a set of annular cutters (shortly I hope) they will certainly be weldon. I'll also get a R8 cutter holder arbour.
- I am a bit puzzled that the set screws on the arbours I've seen are at zero and 90 degrees. I'd have thought that the set screws would be opposite each other (at zero & 180 degrees). The zero/90 configuration looks like it would affect eccentricity. I guess the set screws don't need a lot of pressure since they are acting on the relatively large flat- so I won't overtighten them.
- My delay responding (to the above post) is because I have been learning about annular cutters.
Wooooo - lots of choices. Lots to learn.
I've decided I don't need carbide cutters. Therefore I've narrowed it down to either standard HSS or HSS alloy cutters. At least a 6 piece set or maybe 13 piece set if it seems like a good deal. So I'd like Forum opinion on the following 3 choices (or similar choices that I should consider).
1 - Accusize 13 pc set at $258.00 less $15 coupon: 13 pc set 7/16" to 1 1/16 by 16th x 1" cut depth (HSS M2)
2 - Evolution A-CC6SET-1, 6 piece set 9/16" to 1" diameter x 1" cut depth (HSS M2Al)
Note: 1 & 2 are tied
3 - Velor 6 piece set, 7/16" to 1 1/16" x 2" cut depth (HSS M2) - - - - Velor not as popular or well known but attractive price.
VEVOR Annular Cutter Set, 6 pcs 3/4" Weldon Shank, 2" Cutting Depth and Cutting Diameter from 7/16" to 1-1/16", 2 Pilot Pins & Strong Case for Using with Magnetic Drills, Silver : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
VEVOR Annular Cutter Set, 6 pcs 3/4" Weldon Shank, 2" Cutting Depth and Cutting Diameter from 7/16" to 1-1/16", 2 Pilot Pins & Strong Case for Using with Magnetic Drills, Silver : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
www.amazon.ca
FYI 1: While looking for info about the M2Al steel that Evolution uses, I found this link comparing HSS with aluminum or cobalt (M2Al or M42 respectfully)
High Speed Steel with High Performance - High Performance HSS - Advanced Technology & Materials Co., Ltd.
High performance HSS refers to the steel with the some alloyoing element increased to high level: V (＞2.50%) or Co (≥ 4.5%) or Al(0.80~1.20%). Compared to normal high speed steel. High performace HSS can be hardened to 65~70HRC. The wear resistance and ho
FYI 3: I work with either mild steel or aluminum, occasionally stainless steel.
FYI 4: cutters are for the mill - no mag drill in sight.
I guess I wasn't real clear in my comments on this in post 36 above.
As I understand it, the Weldon design is deliberately not concentric by a very small amount such that when the two screws are tightened the final result becomes concentric! Think of the two screws at 0 and 90 a bit like a V-block. Except instead of a round part pushing on two flats, the Weldon is two flats pressing on a round one. Same end result.
I don't always know why standard designs are the way they are. (Morse Tapers, ER Collets, Dx Spindles, T-Slots, & Weldon, etc) Usually, I just accept them for what they are and life goes on. Ya, Weldon is a strange one. But they do seem to work quite well.