Next lathe?

[Susquatch]

I appreciate some folks enjoy every moment of garage time, I‘m still at the point where every moment in the garage needs to be (semi) productive.

I was hoping for an easy answer, doesn’t seem that’s quite the case.

Ya, it's not an easy question or an easy answer. I prolly made it worse.

I have no idea how old you are. But allow me to add some perspective. It takes me several 16 hour days to thread and chamber a barrel, and another whole day to blueprint a receiver. That doesn't include the time to research the alternatives and order the required parts. It only takes about 2 minutes to change gears. I know there are guys around who can do a barrel faster than that, but I've only done it about 30x in my life so I'm pretty green.

I know of at least 2 guys in New Brunswick who would probably help you get going. This help is more valuable than a hundred youtube videos.

In terms of choosing a lathe for gunsmithing work, I'd focus on getting a machine that has a large spindle bore (at least 1.5"), a 12" or bigger swing, and a 36" bed. Smaller lathes can do great work too, but bigger is always better for lots of reasons. You will, also want a spindle that protrudes back out of the gear box, preferably with a built in spider. A tail stock that can be torqued down with a torque wrench is also an asset as is a taper attachment, but neither one is a requirement. A minimum speed of 50rpm is desirable, but you can make do with 75 or 80. Mine is 70 and I wish it was 50. Power feed on the carriage is absolutely necessary and on the cross slide its desirable. A thread dial is essential too, but you can get by without it by leaving the half nut engaged.

I prefer a lathe that can do both metric and imperial work. I also prefer a quick change tool post. And you will want a mix of indexable carbide and high-speed steel tools. Some will say you don't need hss. I'm not one of them. I often find myself grinding custom profiles into hss. That's MUCH HARDER to do in carbide.

That's about all I can think of just now. Enjoy your new journey. Feel free to ask questions. I'll try to be more brief in future.

 

[Matt-Aburg]

This big at least !!

 

[Xyphota]

This big at least !!

For your cannon smithing needs

 

[Susquatch]

This big at least !!

Crap..... It has no tailstock!

 

[6.5 Fan]

On a machine with change gears how about an ELS, that eliminates a lot of screwing around.

 

[Marknb]

On a machine with change gears how about an ELS, that eliminates a lot of screwing around.

I kinda forgot about that option, probably because I was focused on getting away from change gears.

Gun smithing may have been an exaggeration, at this point I’m more interested in doing my own barrels and action truing.

Lots of good advise here, lots of options. Now I just need something to pop up for sale.

thanks again.

 

[Susquatch]

On a machine with change gears how about an ELS, that eliminates a lot of screwing around.

Yes, I mentioned that several times. An ELS is a great solution regardless of whether or not you have change gears. It's really a total solution, best of both worlds, and provides other advantages too.

ELS is not for me, but I'm a fan anyway. I think it's superior to both a full gearbox and a change gear lathe. If it wasn't clear in my previous rants, the problem with a full gear box is that there are always gunna be missing pitches. With a change gear lathe you can make or buy the required gear. @John Conroy just did that. With a full gearbox, you are SOL. With an ELS, you have it all.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, let me make a specific smithing case I had forgotten about. Some of the old Sako Rifles have a metric 1.6mm pitch on their barrel tenons. These rifles are beautiful, shoot lights out, and are very worthy of rebarrelling. But very very few full gear box lathes have a built in 1.6mm pitch. It's not a common thread pitch. Mine did happen to come with it, but it does definitely require a gear change. At least I have it. With an ELS, it's not an issue at all.

The guys with change gear lathes either get lucky and have the gear or they buy or make one. Most of the guys with full gear boxes are either SOL or make do with 16. The guys with ELS, dial it in and cut threads (along with a whole host of other advantages).

The issue with the Sako is so bad that many smiths just cut it at 16tpi (which is very very close to 1.6). Some are pretty passionate about it. Some even argue that it can't be 1.6 because no lathe has that. That's just BS. My lathe does, I have a 1.6mm thread gauge, I have physically measured one to be certain, and I have rebarrelled one at 1.6mm.

So ya, if we are talking about a smithing lathe, and don't want to change gears, an ELS is the best way to go!

 

[Susquatch]

Gun smithing may have been an exaggeration, at this point I’m more interested in doing my own barrels and action truing.

I kinda figured that. But please keep in mind that folks usually rebarrel and true actions to improve accuracy over what they can get from the factory. Most don't buy a lathe to rebarrel one rifle.

If your objective is to improve factory rifles by rebarrelling and truing, 99% of the work and time is setup. 1% is cutting threads. Factories cut threads just fine. What they don't do is the setup. The setup is what makes a rifle shoot tacks. Here is a thread by our own member @thestelster that might give you an idea of how to do it properly. You won't see that kind of attention to detail on YouTube. The thread will give you a good idea of what's involved but might mislead you into thinking it's easy! It's not easy, but it is enjoyable and it is worth it!

Thread 'Rifle Action Truing' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/rifle-action-truing.4681/

 

[thestelster]

For your cannon smithing needs

Yeah, coastal gun 'smithing!

 

[Chicken lights]

For your cannon smithing needs

Weren’t the earlier cannons cast? I just realized I don’t know that for sure, I guess there’s no reason why you wouldn’t cast them, then machine the bore to spec

That would be one heck of a boring bar, tho

 

[RobinHood]

Most of the guys with full gear boxes are either SOL or make do with 16.

That’s because they don’t realize that you can use change gears even with “a full gear box”.

For example, my Colchester Master does not have the 1.6mm thread selectable with levers. But it lists 0.2, 0.4, & 0.8 (those are all selectable with levers). All one would need is a 2x multiplier and set the QCGB to 0.8 ==> 1.6mm.

 

[Chicken lights]

Weren’t the earlier cannons cast? I just realized I don’t know that for sure, I guess there’s no reason why you wouldn’t cast them, then machine the bore to spec

That would be one heck of a boring bar, tho

https://www.nps.gov/fowa/learn/hist...annons were made by,cannon as one solid piece.

Good stuff!

 

[DPittman]

The issue with the Sako is so bad that many smiths just cut it at 16tpi (which is very very close to 1.6). Some are pretty passionate about it. Some even argue that it can't be 1.6 because no lathe has that. That's just BS. My lathe does, I have a 1.6mm thread gauge, I have physically measured one to be certain, and I have rebarrelled one at 1.6mm.

I thought I'd check my little lathe to see if it could cut that thread as is and sure enough, it can!

 

[Susquatch]

But it lists 0.2, 0.4, & 0.8 (those are all selectable with levers). All one would need is a 2x multiplier and set the QCGB to 0.8 ==> 1.6mm.

In general, I think that's how most "so called" change gear lathes work. They have a basic built in multiplier or divider 1x 2x 4x 8x and another set of 2 to 8 ranges that yield 8 to 32 gears altogether. I'm not yet sure how the ranges work though - they don't seem to be standard even ratios.

I've been using data from @Proxule's lathe to try to figure it out. His lathe is a little different, but that makes it all the more interesting.

Tell me a bit more about this multiplier that your lathe has. That knowledge might help me on many fronts.

I love trying to understand how such things work. In general it is my observation that very very few have any slightest clue. That's not their fault though. I don't think the lathe manufacturers want us to know that stuff! They do a pretty good job of hiding it! LOL!

 

[Darren]

Learn something new everyday here....the Emco V13 will cut a 1.6 but my SM 1660 won't.

The 10ee has enclosed oil bath change gears, but you CAN buy a metric $et

The 1660 doesn't really have a provision for changing the end gearing.

 

[Susquatch]

All one would need is a 2x multiplier and set the QCGB to 0.8 ==> 1.6mm.

Hopefully you just missed my question @RobinHood. I've been driving myself crazy trying to find out more about this on my own.

What is this 2x multiplier you refer to? Is it a device you add to your lathe somehow or is it built in. Please tell me more or tell me what to look for.

A search on "Lathe 2x multiplier", and all the other varients I can think of, has yielded nothing of any value.

I have half a dozen contacts who would die to be able to do what you describe.

 

[RobinHood]

Tell me a bit more about this multiplier that your lathe has. That knowledge might help me on many fronts.

This is not part of my lathe. I would have to make an external gear ratio which drives the QCGB 2x faster than it normally is driven so that I could select 0.8mm on my levers. The output of the QCGB would then be 1.6mm.

Hence my comment that even guys with “a full gearbox” are not SOL if they start adding external change gears to their lathes. There could a limitation if there is not enough room in the drive train; some of that could be overcome by changing the DP (Module) and compounding gears.

In a nutshell: where there is a will, there is a way to make it work.

 

[Bandit]

Susquatch, you may already have the gears to do this if the banjo and adjustments allow you to. Put the 60 tooth gear on the "a" shaft and the 30 tooth on the "b" shaft, this will give a 2X increase into the gear box. I am referring to the 1440 threading thread, I also mentioned if I Had a second 60 tooth gear to put on my "a" shaft, I would have a 1to1 input into the quick change box, instead of driving it at 1/2 speed.

 

[Susquatch]

This is not part of my lathe. I would have to make an external gear ratio which drives the QCGB 2x faster than it normally is driven so that I could select 0.8mm on my levers. The output of the QCGB would then be 1.6mm.

Hence my comment that even guys with “a full gearbox” are not SOL if they start adding external change gears to their lathes. There could a limitation if there is not enough room in the drive train; some of that could be overcome by changing the DP (Module) and compounding gears.

In a nutshell: where there is a will, there is a way to make it work.

Now I fully understand Rudy. Thank you so much for explaining.

There is almost always a way if there is a will. I had assumed this capability was something your lathe came with or that could be added off the shelf.

There isn't enough will among my buddies. They will just continue to bring their work to me and grumble about how come I can do it with my basic gear change lathe and they can't. LMAO!

I prolly should have chosen better words than SOL for guys with a full gearbox though. I was too busy pointing out that a gear change lathe does have its advantages and took an axe to everything standing in the forest around me. A serious flaw in my character. My apologies.

 

[Susquatch]

Susquatch, you may already have the gears to do this if the banjo and adjustments allow you to. Put the 60 tooth gear on the "a" shaft and the 30 tooth on the "b" shaft, this will give a 2X increase into the gear box. I am referring to the 1440 threading thread, I also mentioned if I Had a second 60 tooth gear to put on my "a" shaft, I would have a 1to1 input into the quick change box, instead of driving it at 1/2 speed.

We were talking about other lathes, not mine. I already have this pitch standard in my lathe. In fact, it's exactly what @RobinHood explained - 0.2, 0.4, 0.8, and 1.6mm.

I did order an inexpensive set of gear cutters though. I'll soon be able to make any gear I want.