New Section

[CalgaryPT]

Thanks for all the ideas and feedback everyone. One problem I have noted is women don’t participate- the few that join give up shortly. It may be there is a locker room smell occasionally. If there are any perspectives on that you’d like to share please speak up or PM me if you’d rather not add to this thread.

It would great if women did participate and showed off their skills. Personally, I don't find any of you attractive.

 

[SomeGuy]

Yeah, ads on the forum would suck for members.
In the past I have thought about ads for the 99% of folks who never even sign up as a member, but when our admins spoke about this last we concluded that we don't really have a use for the chunk of funds it would bring in anyways.

If I recall correctly, a Google tool estimated the forum could be pulling in $1200 a month. Not enough for staff to manage a shop, or hire someone in a management role, but much more than we need for our current costs,
--> The forum isn't a money making venture. If it was, I would have done a ton differently, but also we likely wouldnt have garnered the awesome community we have today. (My work during the day is broad, but I have specific expertise in digital advertising and tailored marketing-performance data capture. Yet, the forum has never seen or paid for an advertisement, and I've kept tracking to the minimum I need to bug-fix and optimize when things go sideways. If this was about quitting my day job, I would say we've done a poor job at it. Haha)

Periodically I think about what this group could achieve with funding, regardless as to how we acquired it. There is a ton, but the trick is that no one is really in a place to manage the group as a business like that, at the moment. Even if we had the spare cycles, one thing we have been consistent on over the years: It says "Hobby" right in the name.

Though, I am open to the conversation if anyone has ideas of wants to chat.

$1200 a month (or even $500 after expenses and "paying" the admins) could go towards regular giveaways or get togethers or subscription services to the members here. Especially if the ads were only to those not signed in (so no regular member would see ads) and just a couple lightweight ones. As long as it's not harming the forum or members or anything, I don't see the need to leave money on the table that could otherwise benefit those who are here and participating.

The rest of the points you made were great though

 

[Susquatch]

$1200 a month (or even $500 after expenses and "paying" the admins) could go towards regular giveaways or get togethers or subscription services to the members here. Especially if the ads were only to those not signed in (so no regular member would see ads) and just a couple lightweight ones. As long as it's not harming the forum or members or anything, I don't see the need to leave money on the table that could otherwise benefit those who are here and participating.

The rest of the points you made were great though

We have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't want any adds. I feel so strongly about it that I'd pay not to have them. And I regularly do in other venues. I don't want to worry about fair (or unfair) distribution of any income either.

 

[SomeGuy]

We have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't want any adds. I feel so strongly about it that I'd pay not to have them. And I regularly do in other venues. I don't want to worry about fair (or unfair) distribution of any income either.

I was suggesting only for people who aren't logged in, so not any of the members or whatnot. I have never been on a forum where people got sour over giveaways.

 

[Susquatch]

We're not likely to implement auto deletion of any content, as others have noted, storage *space* isn't a major issue.

Here is yet another view of that which nobody has mentioned. In my previous career Steelcase (office furniture company) psychologists taught me that people are different. Some are pilers, some are filers. Some discard everything old, some keep everything forever, etc etc. They learned that we should never try to turn one into the other lest we ruin their creativity and productivity. These differences are valuable and represent a major form of diversity in the workplace and in society. Therefore we must learn to celebrate and facilitate our differences. What is hoarding to one is wasteful to another, what is neat and tidy to one is confusing to the other. I for one am happiest in the midst of organized chaos. A filer would pull their hair out in my shop.

The advanced search tool allows those neat and tidy members to search posts newer than a selected date. But if we delete those posts, a piler like me cannot ever find them. Of course there is a cadre of people in between.

I like that part of our forum just fine and wouldn't want anyone to change it.

Also, as I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere, historical posts are the forums most useful tool to grow our user base and activity levels.

Other than the 20 or so folks who were present when the forum started, I would wager (but didn't check specifically), that nearly 100% of our members have come directly from Google search leading them to the forum, much of which was likely to historical post.

The history is visibility, for a forum

Yup, that was me too. Google Searching for how to find a good used mill and found a very old post on here. Joined, posted, got some great advice, ended up buying two good mills, and got to know some amazing people!

 

[Susquatch]

I was suggesting only for people who aren't logged in, so not any of the members or whatnot. I have never been on a forum where people got sour over giveaways.

I'm not sure how that might work. But I wouldn't be against ads for visitors. I view that as sort of like paying for no adds.

I have seen people get really sour over fair distribution of funds all the time. People get hotter than a volcano when someone else gets any benefits they thought belonged to themselves or to others or to everyone.

Also, the minute we start getting ad revenue we start attracting the tax man who will want us to incorporate as a not for profit or as a profit business. Better to keep a very low profile that depends on volunteers.

 

[deleted_user]

I'm not sure, are we concerned with website database space? Or is it just a matter of date stamping? By the same token, the hundreds (maybe thousands now) of member spotted lathes/mils/whatever deals on Kijiji, auctions or whatever are presumed to be short shelf life - as in likely sold & irrelevant in 3 weeks. But they may still have value to someone wanting to get a hindsight feel for price, maybe applied to a current purchase consideration. But if @LenVW means cull the website posts in general based on 1-year date, that would be a bad thing IMO, because you obviously lose all that good info that has nothing to do suppliers. How to hold a part, how to mount a chuck, parting problems... the Search tool is your friend. Many things have been discussed before but when someone joins up they may not be familiar with how to search. Although this is a clue LOL

View attachment 21714

I'm opposed to culling of content of any kind. Content is a repository of knowledge for those yet to come. It is why there is a search function on sites such as this...

Youtube or larger sites such as practical machinist are more likely to have far more how to content specific to actual machining tasks we may need, but content such as Canadian sales sources, historical pricing data on machinery, and tips like member spotted deals, and hard to locate supplies is the type of content that makes a Canadian specific forum valuable to Canadians.

I'd go so far as to post a guide to the best practices for posting in the "member spotted deals" and the classified ad sections. We should recommend that if someone wishes to post a link to an ad on Kijiji, or facebook that they also copy the photos from the ad to the local post, and include the asking price as a bare minimum. This way the ad remains a relevant resource after the item has been sold. Historical pricing data is a high value commodity in many industries, including the hobbyist metal working community.

If you really wish to be helpful it is advisable to include the contact method such as email or phone number for facebook posts for those members without facebook

I'd even suggest that the member who posts such ads make an effort to followed up after an item has sold and ask if the seller would share the final sales price.

 

[deleted_user]

I'm not sure how that might work. But I wouldn't be against ads for visitors. I view that as sort of like paying for no adds.

I have seen people get really sour over fair distribution of funds all the time. People get hotter than a volcano when someone else gets any benefits they thought belonged to themselves or to others or to everyone.

Also, the minute we start getting ad revenue we start attracting the tax man who will want us to incorporate as a not for profit or as a profit business. Better to keep a very low profile that depends on volunteers.

I forgot to comment on ads.

Every other metal working, model making, RC and similar forum to which I belong has ads. This is accomplished by an ad server service and targets users based on their numerous cookies accumulated around the web.

These ads are why the sites have survived while so many others have gone by the wayside.

You either have ads, or you have premium content that the majority of viewers are willing to pay for.

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of visitors to this site are not paying members. I'd hazard that most people dont care about a premium members lounge or even the ability to edit and delete posts long term. I'd support having an ad service, rather than trying to sell our own ad space or having a pay to be added resource listing.

I'm not against local chapters, and sections, or meet ups, but I am more an introvert and I am not the type who seeks out local meet ups as a regular thing. That said, I'll strongly suggest that this is an activity that this forum should encourage... and help schedule... official swap meets, meet and greets... that's value add to the forum

Also Note.... Toronto Star members who pay to read the Toronto Star online are still subject to ads... TorStar doesn't care, and from what they've told me they do not believe that they're losing subscribers over the issue....

will it suck to see ads as a member? IMO no... and from what I've seen elsewhere you can set-up sites such as this to only feed ads to non-members... and some may say why do I pay to let non-members have access?

 

[Jwest7788]

$1200 a month (or even $500 after expenses and e that could otherwise benefit those who are here and participating.

Yeah, I am not one to hide behind the "slippery slope" defence, but it has always felt like a line in the sand. However, when you put it that way, it does shift perspective a bit.

Also, the minute we start getting ad revenue we start attracting the tax man who will want us to incorporate as a not for profit or as a profit business.

Yeah. Incorporation is also on the admin's consistent talking list, another line in the sand, I suppose.

I'd even suggest that the member who posts such ads make an effort to followed up after an item has sold and ask if the seller would share the final sales price.

Yeah, I am pretty sure we could enforce the requirement of images etc. if we as a group decide to?

 

[Susquatch]

Yeah. Incorporation is also on the admin's consistent talking list, another line in the sand, I

If you ever do decide to go that route I could help. I've written the consitution & bylaws for 4 Not 4 Profits and successfully handled the legal/gov't incorporation process for them. I could save us a ton in legal fees.

But just so you know, I don't recommend it. I'd highly recommend staying on the "don't go there" side of that line in the sand.

Feel free to PM me and get my phone number. I'd be happy to give you an overview, answer questions, and help if I can.

 

[Jwest7788]

If you ever do decide to go that route I could help. I've written the consitution & bylaws for 4 Not 4 Profits and successfully handled the legal/gov't incorporation process for them. I could save us a ton in legal fees.

But just so you know, I don't recommend it. I'd highly recommend staying on the "don't go there" side of that line in the sand.

Feel free to PM me and get my phone number. I'd be happy to give you an overview, answer questions, and help if I can.

We have an admin meeting later this week and will chat about the same. It sounds like it may make sense to connect and ask some questions.

Will keep you posted.

 

[Six O Two]

Using this post as a bellwether for the feel of the forum, I'm not surprised more women don't participate. If I were a woman, is the only value I bring to the forum based on my perceived attractiveness?

 

[SomeGuy]

View attachment 21756

Using this post as a bellwether for the feel of the forum, I'm not surprised more women don't participate. If I were a woman, is the only value I bring to the forum based on my perceived attractiveness?

To be fair, attractive or not, how many female machinists do you know?

This is also the case in a lot of STEM fields, the ratios are 10 to 1 or more.

 

[deleted_user]

To be fair, attractive or not, how many female machinists do you know?

This is also the case in a lot of STEM fields, the ratios are 10 to 1 or more.

I hired two woman to work on jobsites with production homebuilders. They were far better employees and workers than all their "peers" and yet had to endure the cruelest crap imaginable because our complaints and threats to the builders was always ignored...

Whenever I looked to hire more women, when those new potential hires asked the current employees how their experiences on job sites were and heard how bad it was the women turned down the employment offers. I had to reallocate these two women to design activities in our offices and replace them with men for job site inspections.

There are few women because they see the toxic culture on full display and say no thanks.

Imagine working with AVE as a female apprentice... nope.

Here endeth the sermon.

 

[SomeGuy]

I hired two woman to work on jobsites with production homebuilders. They were far better employees and workers than all their "peers" and yet had to endure the cruelest crap imaginable because our complaints and threats to the builders was always ignored...

Whenever I looked to hire more women, when those new potential hires asked the current employees how their experiences on job sites were and heard how bad it was the women turned down the employment offers. I had to reallocate these two women to design activities in our offices and replace them with men for job site inspections.

There are few women because they see the toxic culture on full display and say no thanks.

Imagine working with AVE as a female apprentice... nope.

Here endeth the sermon.

Yup, and the trades in general are terrible for this. Heck, the trades are toxic to anyone who isn't also toxic themselves, it's like hazing and pranking is a requirement to be "in the club".

STEM is a bit better, women are respected (at least where I am), but the ratios are still highly skewed.

 

[deleted_user]

Yup, and the trades in general are terrible for this. Heck, the trades are toxic to anyone who isn't also toxic themselves, it's like hazing and pranking is a requirement to be "in the club".

STEM is a bit better, women are respected (at least where I am), but the ratios are still highly skewed.

Yep, in our office I had hired several women to work in engineering roles designing HVAC systems. The only people they had to deal with were architects and other engineers so they were never exposed to toxic culture.

to illustrate how toxic the culture within the construction industry is, the other day my brother asked a construction worker to move the truck blocking his driveway so he could leave to go to a meeting he was late for. The worker attacked my brother who acted in self defense to pin the workers arms and then double him over to subdue him.

Two other construction workers working for the same firm then jumped and beat my brother as he tried to restrain the original worker. They beat him unconscious and then continued to beat and kick his unconscious body as he lay on the ground. My brother was unconscious for over 10 minutes and had severe concussion and could easily have died since he is on blood thinners....

additionally my brother is in ill health and clearly disabled... It saddens me deeply to see toxicity in this hobby as well and I hope that too much does not come out in this forum

 

[Chicken lights]

View attachment 21756

Using this post as a bellwether for the feel of the forum, I'm not surprised more women don't participate. If I were a woman, is the only value I bring to the forum based on my perceived attractiveness?

Personally, I’d be a little worried if @CalgaryPT DID find any of us attractive.

I think men joke with each other way more than women do, you learned to grow a thick skin at a young age. EVERYone picks on the young kids on job sites or the barn yard. You also learned to keep an eye on your dinner pail

One of my first jobs there was two guys that took great delight in seeing who could flip the other guy off first, in the morning. It was hilarious to watch the antics, they took it seriously

 

[Darren]

Imagine working with AVE as a female apprentice... nope.

What do you think the problem would be? Like him or not, the guy is a wealth of knowledge. He just isn't a snowflake.

 

[Chicken lights]

Yup, and the trades in general are terrible for this. Heck, the trades are toxic to anyone who isn't also toxic themselves, it's like hazing and pranking is a requirement to be "in the club".

STEM is a bit better, women are respected (at least where I am), but the ratios are still highly skewed.

The trick is getting good at giving it, ya gotta give ‘er as much or more as you’re taking.

 

[Tom O]

Lol