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Need Tool Steel Calgary Area
- Thread starter YYCHM
- Start date
I guess the first question is - what do you mean by tool steel? Is your intention is to machine to size in its annealed state & then have it hardened? As I posted elsewhere that's essentially what drill rod is for (the 1" diameter stock for punch pins or whatever they are called). The typical mode is machine, heat, quench, temper (and then grind if distortion and/or high surface finish is required).
But the base plates would be very spendy in any of these A/O/W type materials purely based on its size. I have heard of people successfully hardening 4140 but you would have to research that more. It would require a decent amount of heat & probably temperature control. Case hardening certain key wear areas might be an easier option but even if done correct is quite shallow penetration. If you are asking about 'tough' vs. 'hardened' steel & accept that it wont last or hold an edge quite as long, that's a bit different. Again 4140 might be an option & some of the boys have lumps from the group harvest a while back they could deal to you.
But the base plates would be very spendy in any of these A/O/W type materials purely based on its size. I have heard of people successfully hardening 4140 but you would have to research that more. It would require a decent amount of heat & probably temperature control. Case hardening certain key wear areas might be an easier option but even if done correct is quite shallow penetration. If you are asking about 'tough' vs. 'hardened' steel & accept that it wont last or hold an edge quite as long, that's a bit different. Again 4140 might be an option & some of the boys have lumps from the group harvest a while back they could deal to you.
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=disc+cutter&_sacat=0
If you just want the dang tool...
If you just want the dang tool...
Not quite what I'm looking for thanks. A disc cutter I have, or can make. Need the materials to make a device to cut shims like this.
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I know you said disc cutter is bit different that what your are targeting, but just to show an example of material makeup.
The tool's holes have been machined and honed to make fine, clean cuts. The punches are oil-quenched tool steel that have been drawn for hardness and durability. The base is case-hardened and ground.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Disc-Cutter...h=item463558d567:g:f3IAAOSwPhdU7Rva:rk:7:pf:0
The tool's holes have been machined and honed to make fine, clean cuts. The punches are oil-quenched tool steel that have been drawn for hardness and durability. The base is case-hardened and ground.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Disc-Cutter...h=item463558d567:g:f3IAAOSwPhdU7Rva:rk:7:pf:0
So... Am I chasing my tail and won't be able to achieve my goal without investing in some serious equipment?
I don't know this kind of punch for sure, but it may be corroborating my gut feel in post #3. If you can find a commercial version of what you are trying to do just to get a get a feel for how they are made, that would be helpful. The 'serious equipment' part isn't so much the machining, its the heat treating in order to get both hardness & toughness because punches & shears are in kind of a demanding environment. Otherwise its like making a knife blade out of cold rolled steel. It may be shiny & shaped right & initially have a razor sharp edge. But after only a few cuts it will be dull. So instead dicing 100 tomatoes, you only get 10 & then must be resharpened. You might be able to make 'some' or 'many' acceptable shims with unhardened components. But 100 or 200... who can say without more knowledge or experimenting. If the real kits have these features then its that way for a reason. Only you will know that by experimenting.
But just using the disc cutter as an example. When they say the punches are oil-quenched tool steel that have been drawn for hardness and durability.
So this is called tool steel or drill rod like the stuff at KBC I mentioned to you elsewhere. You would turn it down to specific diameter & finish in a lathe. The way it comes is ready for machining, called annealed condition. The only way I see this being hardened in a low budget home shop environment is to torch heat the business end orange red. There is a specific temperature but budget folks use a magnet. When it doesn't stick, its at the minimum temp. Then quickly quench it. If its type W the quench medium is water. If its type O the quench medium is oil. Now the cutting edge is very hard, unfortunately impracticably hard like glass. Now you must temper the rod to draw back the hardness to desired number. The link shows some real world examples. So that would be typically an oven that could reach say 450-deg & that yield a certain hardness number, say 60. I'm just giving the big picture here but heat treating is a science in itself. There are YouTube videos out there along with the usual caveats. Now after our shop HT we hope it doesn't distort from the quench and we hope it doesn't grow after HT out of spec & we hope it still has a decent finish... etc. Maybe you will be OK. In the industrial world they don't leave this to chance. They assume any & all of these things will occur & plan on finish grinding the hardened part. That would be difficult to do in home shop without a toolpost grinder. https://stampingworld.com/technicaldatafiles/Techdata-Toolsteel hardness.pdf
When they say the base is case-hardened and ground that is pretty much what I was referencing with the 4140 suggestion. Case hardening is a heat material to red but then dip/apply a carbon compound powder or goop. You get this at machinery or gunsmiths suppliers. We will assume you wont grind the base because you don't have a surface grinder.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...ing/surface-hardening-compound-prod27119.aspx
Possibly you could case harden your pins & skip the quenching method but I rather doubt it. CH is more for sliding action hardness because penetration is very shallow.
So I don't want to scare you off but its also important to know why certain things are made a certain way. The trick is to to figure out IF corners can be cut in home shop environment & if so what parameters can be relaxed that you can live with. Maybe they initially come out perfect & edge degrades after 10. I really cant say. If you found a tool that was making nice ones in the qty you are looking at, that would be a huge start to reference from. Maybe for softer shim materials its more about the mechanism & pin/hole relative dimensions & finish for shearing action. Again, we can only speculate.
But just using the disc cutter as an example. When they say the punches are oil-quenched tool steel that have been drawn for hardness and durability.
So this is called tool steel or drill rod like the stuff at KBC I mentioned to you elsewhere. You would turn it down to specific diameter & finish in a lathe. The way it comes is ready for machining, called annealed condition. The only way I see this being hardened in a low budget home shop environment is to torch heat the business end orange red. There is a specific temperature but budget folks use a magnet. When it doesn't stick, its at the minimum temp. Then quickly quench it. If its type W the quench medium is water. If its type O the quench medium is oil. Now the cutting edge is very hard, unfortunately impracticably hard like glass. Now you must temper the rod to draw back the hardness to desired number. The link shows some real world examples. So that would be typically an oven that could reach say 450-deg & that yield a certain hardness number, say 60. I'm just giving the big picture here but heat treating is a science in itself. There are YouTube videos out there along with the usual caveats. Now after our shop HT we hope it doesn't distort from the quench and we hope it doesn't grow after HT out of spec & we hope it still has a decent finish... etc. Maybe you will be OK. In the industrial world they don't leave this to chance. They assume any & all of these things will occur & plan on finish grinding the hardened part. That would be difficult to do in home shop without a toolpost grinder. https://stampingworld.com/technicaldatafiles/Techdata-Toolsteel hardness.pdf
When they say the base is case-hardened and ground that is pretty much what I was referencing with the 4140 suggestion. Case hardening is a heat material to red but then dip/apply a carbon compound powder or goop. You get this at machinery or gunsmiths suppliers. We will assume you wont grind the base because you don't have a surface grinder.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...ing/surface-hardening-compound-prod27119.aspx
Possibly you could case harden your pins & skip the quenching method but I rather doubt it. CH is more for sliding action hardness because penetration is very shallow.
So I don't want to scare you off but its also important to know why certain things are made a certain way. The trick is to to figure out IF corners can be cut in home shop environment & if so what parameters can be relaxed that you can live with. Maybe they initially come out perfect & edge degrades after 10. I really cant say. If you found a tool that was making nice ones in the qty you are looking at, that would be a huge start to reference from. Maybe for softer shim materials its more about the mechanism & pin/hole relative dimensions & finish for shearing action. Again, we can only speculate.
Brian H
Super User
This post certainly peaked my interest. I recently started searching for O1 tool steel (3/16"x 1 1/2"x 48"). There is nothing available locally here. I did discover a link to a company called "Metal Supermarket". They do show a location in Calgary and a couple in Edmonton. Has anyone had any experience with them? I emailed a request and got a quote the same day, but, since its about 5 hours away from me I don't want to make the trip without a little information.
I have had mixed good and not so good experiences at MSS. Did you use the online quote option or email them directly? The online quote option would only list drill rod for me. So, what did they quote you?
BrianH, real simple.
A) get a MSM quote for a given size of O1. Add 5 hrs of gas & your time
B) compare to KBC published prices. Add 8.95 shipping to your door. You will probably have it in under a week.
https://www.kbctools.ca/products/TOOLROOM ACCESSORIES/STOCK MATERIAL/DRILL ROD/1644.aspx
fine print: 25$ min order for flat rate shipping, but there might be something else of interest including Black Friday discounts
https://www.kbctools.ca/content.aspx?file=customerpages/terms.htm
Let us know what you find out. It would be a strange day indeed if MSM came out cheaper.
A) get a MSM quote for a given size of O1. Add 5 hrs of gas & your time
B) compare to KBC published prices. Add 8.95 shipping to your door. You will probably have it in under a week.
https://www.kbctools.ca/products/TOOLROOM ACCESSORIES/STOCK MATERIAL/DRILL ROD/1644.aspx
fine print: 25$ min order for flat rate shipping, but there might be something else of interest including Black Friday discounts
https://www.kbctools.ca/content.aspx?file=customerpages/terms.htm
Let us know what you find out. It would be a strange day indeed if MSM came out cheaper.
Finding square tool steel like that would probably be pretty expensive. It's doable but you're likely better off to look for 4140.
I doubt you want more suggestions that are not what you're wanting to do but.. I'm going to give you an option that may work for you and is a good one to have in your back pocket.
Joe piecynski (I don't have but that came out right - thanks autocorrect) has a few videos on this type of thing and I completely agree with the method he uses. It may work for you depending on quantity that you need and how often you need to make them.
Brian H
Super User
I used their online quote option because I ran into the same issue as you did. Since I have had such problems sourcing specific steel in Saskatoon I wasn't sure if what I wanted was even available. I am using it for knifemaking, so I was looking for 3/16 x 1 1/2" flat O1 tool steel
Brian H
Super User
Thanks for the info. I will look right away. I am curious because the 3' piece I was looking at purchasing was going to hit the $100 mark plus the cost of going to Edmonton.
KBC part number 1-951-178 Starrett O-1 tool steel (precision ground flat stock) $35.45 for 18" length. I know the prices are wanky now because my paper catalog says $26.87. Materials (typically from USA) are fluctuating because of exchange & tariffs & phase of the moon and....
https://www.kbctools.ca/products/TOOLROOM ACCESSORIES/STOCK MATERIAL/FLAT STOCK/1648.aspx
If you are into blades & such, check out this guy. He sells blade materials & other things of potential interest. I sent him a (completely unrelated) pieces of tool steel to have hardened & he did a great job.
https://www.knifemaker.ca/Heat-Treat-Service/
https://www.kbctools.ca/products/TOOLROOM ACCESSORIES/STOCK MATERIAL/FLAT STOCK/1648.aspx
If you are into blades & such, check out this guy. He sells blade materials & other things of potential interest. I sent him a (completely unrelated) pieces of tool steel to have hardened & he did a great job.
https://www.knifemaker.ca/Heat-Treat-Service/
Attachments
https://pepetools.com/products/premium-disc-cutting-kit
probably a great tool. My spouse wants one. ...
Make any progress on this @YYCHobbyMachinist ?
probably a great tool. My spouse wants one. ...
Make any progress on this @YYCHobbyMachinist ?
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