Milling Machine - $950 - Mississauga

[TorontoBuilder]

Well they do but most aren't willing to even pay they high end prices so it's the cheap stuff that sells and what people want.

There is a theory about why average home sizes ballooned from an average 905 ft2 home in the 1950 to well over 2700 ft2 in the mid 2000s and often featured 2 storey great rooms that are actually horrible to sit in.

Builders claimed that customers would not buy homes that were not larger and didn't have great rooms, or whatever trend was the flavour of the day.

Detailed research however disproved the builder's claims. Consumers would have preferred smaller, better designed, better built and more luxurious homes. Sarah Susanka pitched a philosophy based on this fallacy of the fallacy of what builder's claimed consumers wanted. The not so big house became a minor movement in the custom home market.

So I always challenge what people say consumers really want, and ask are people forced to buy what manufacturers force us to buy... and does China have a policy to sell cheap consumer goods or is that end result just a natural evolution resulting from the Chinese system?

 

[jcdammeyer]

There is a theory about why average home sizes ballooned from an average 905 ft2 home in the 1950 to well over 2700 ft2 in the mid 2000s and often featured 2 storey great rooms that are actually horrible to sit in.

Builders claimed that customers would not buy homes that were not larger and didn't have great rooms, or whatever trend was the flavour of the day.

Detailed research however disproved the builder's claims. Consumers would have preferred smaller, better designed, better built and more luxurious homes. Sarah Susanka pitched a philosophy based on this fallacy of the fallacy of what builder's claimed consumers wanted. The not so big house became a minor movement in the custom home market.

So I always challenge what people say consumers really want, and ask are people forced to buy what manufacturers force us to buy... and does China have a policy to sell cheap consumer goods or is that end result just a natural evolution resulting from the Chinese system?

Hard to say. And I have an opinion but this isn't the forum for it.

 

[Tom Kitta]

the chinese burn massive amounts of low quality coal to generate electricity and used in steel. I'm prevented from talking about their labour practices, and other business practices including raw materials extraction... I'm with the hairy guy. The chinese should be able to make lower cost premium products.

However, they have a policy to flood foreign markets with low cost consumer goods.

Actually that is not their policy but policy of our importers that go for lowest cost when using no name brands.

Notice that a lot of quality stuff is made by western brand names in China and is of excellent quality. Nothing close quality wise than we can make in the west even for 3x the price.

The main problem of the Chinese is building of brand names that the west can trust. Of course west is not going to sit idle when faced with a company that can make better product, for less and of say higher technology - the main solution is to sanction such company or even ban entire industries. Free competition is only "free" when US company is #1 and only reason you would pick anyone else is b/c you want to be "different".

Well they do but most aren't willing to even pay they high end prices so it's the cheap stuff that sells and what people want.
When I worked in The Netherlands back in the early 90's we made machines that trimmed and formed the leads on ICs. One of the customers was Motorola and when I moved back here I even did some consulting for Motorola Japan.
But. The point is that our company was required to strictly adhere with the drawings of the equipment. If they said the cabinet was 220mm wide +/-0.1mm then the Japanese customers would reject it if it was 220.2mm wide. Even the Germans weren't that strict. And I've already described a sliding door there.

In North America price tends to trump (ha ha) quality. IIRC, I paid House of Tools $3295 for my mill. It came with a vise and a set of R8 collets. @David_R8 agrees the Vise is really big. I bought a smaller 4" one I use for most everything. But if they built a mill to the German/Japanese standards identical to mine it would have been way more expensive and out side my budget.

So the reality I suspect is if the Chinese built something to compete with German quality it would still be cheaper but they likely wouldn't sell very many. So maybe large volume, low quality, provides a better return on investment.

Chinese build such products but as you state the problem is they would be only 1/2 the price of western stuff. 1/2 price is still a LOT of $$$ for "Chinese Junk". Taiwan tries to make top of the end lathes - that are better then Hardinge when new - or so Dabbler said. I never actually saw one in person. This is how popular quality Chinese stuff is in bigger ticket items for machining.

Would you pay say $25 cad for some 5C collet that claimed to be "western" quality on aliexpress? It is less than 1/2 price of Hardinge collet. Would you trust them?

Things seem better in high tech - no one bats an eye to pay 1000s for a phone made in China.

 

[Susquatch]

So the reality I suspect is if the Chinese built something to compete with German quality it would still be cheaper but they likely wouldn't sell very many. So maybe large volume, low quality, provides a better return on investment.

I wasn't arguing with the overall situation or the overall thrust of the previous posts. Just disagreeing that its a level playing field. It is not. I only mentioned a few factors but there are many others too. I agree that their basic business case supports high volume lower quality products.

I also agree with your German quality observations and loved your sliding door story. When I was in Germany I was blown away by their tap fixtures especially in their showers but also in the kitchen. You liked their sliding doors, I liked their taps! I ended up importing a set for my kitchen and shower at significant cost 25 years ago. I liked the stuff so much that I took it with me when I moved and put that right into the chattels for the sale. If we ever sell this place, I'll take them with me again. You just don't see that kind of quality and function here.

 

[Susquatch]

Actually that is not their policy but policy of our importers that go for lowest cost when using no name brands.

I agree with a lot of what you said but I think the importer thing driving the market is a bit of a stretch. They could not import it if it didn't exist or wasn't possible. I believe it is their policy too. Another driver is the consumer who is willing to accept slightly lower quality for MUCH LESS cost. Unfortunately, the cost/quality curve is not linear. Eg a 10% quality improvement might cost 400% more. In other words, it's a very complicated world we live in.

 

[trevj]

I don't 100% agree with that. Chinese manufacturers pay less for skilled labour, less for energy, less for materials and much less for unskilled labour than we do. They also pay much lower taxes. Theoretically, they ought to be able to produce MUCH BETTER machines than we can for the same cost or even much less.

Yeah, "ought to".

Some of the other underlying reasons have been mentioned, and a main one, as I see it, is the Brand Trust issue.

But it is far too complicated an issue to simplify down to just one or a few main reasons. There are a LOT of reasons that the Chinese are targeting the low end goods, rather than top quality ones. Some are Cultural effects, some are Government decisions and aid to manufacturers, in order to bring in foreign currency, and some are about the materials and labor that are available to them.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I agree with a lot of what you said but I think the importer thing driving the market is a bit of a stretch. They could not import it if it didn't exist or wasn't possible. I believe it is their policy too. Another driver is the consumer who is willing to accept slightly lower quality for MUCH LESS cost. Unfortunately, the cost/quality curve is not linear. Eg a 10% quality improvement might cost 400% more. In other words, it's a very complicated world we live in.

Well, in many cases you can order items to your specs - i.e. buyer runs the market more then the seller.

When I was in China before Covid I did notice that they used their Chinese tools but of better quality than a lot of what we have here. After all, three gorges dam used more concrete than in all of US in a year - at such scale construction & manufacturing of turbines etc. you could not use "crappy tools". So quality is available.

One can take say a mini mill, make one with solid column, 5000 rpm spindle, hydraulic lift and extra large table. All standard mods. Say price increases by 50%. Would it still sell as well? What if you added few more goodies and made the mill nice and tight with premium bearings? At 100% price increase? This is all within easy reach - nothing special.

But one has to remember that we had before mini mill small milling machines in America. They were very well made, but they costed at least 4x to 5x as much as Chinese stuff. Market killed off all premium stuff. Why is that?

Maybe the issue is more to do with love of people with "more" and being in large part OK with buying "good enough".

A lot of quality stuff is made by western brands in China in machining area - for example a lot of quality expensive drill bits are made in China. Would you buy a "Xinbao" brand drill bits claiming to be just as good as Dewalt at 90% of Dewalt price? Probably not, even if "Xinbao" was made after hours in Dewalt Chinese factory. This is regarding availability / brand trust.

Obviously we are only scratching the surface - material here is enough to write a book or even books.

 

[Susquatch]

Obviously we are only scratching the surface - material here is enough to write a book or even books.

Yup. And therein lies the problem. It's all VERY complicated. You and I will never even scratch the surface. I know that the entire Canadian Auto Industry (and other sectors of Canada's economy) tried to get to the bottom of it and couldn't do it any real justice. Who are we to think we could do better? I think a library might be a better limit..... LOL!

 

[Maker Mike]

Update on the Darbert mill and some questions.
I decided to go with a servo motor from clearpath for the drive motor. (CPM-SDHP-N1433A-ELN) Thought is would be cheaper than a new motor, but by the time I added in the pulleys and things it ended up being about the same as a new motor. Should have plenty of torque though.

I tried adjusting the X axis gibs but ran out of adjustment, so I order some .005" shim stock. Haven't looked at y or z axis.

I have about .004" movement in the spindle when I push on it. Not sure but might need new bearings. Would it be likely that the bearings are the same as for a bridgeport?

The quill I could only get .0002 movement out of. So I think that is good.

Not sure if I should take the saddle and table off to check and make sure oil is getting where it should.

I have a bent x axis lead screw. Still turns fine, but would not be able to install a power drive on it. Might try bending it back, but looking for an suggestions?

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[trevj]

Update on the Darbert mill and some questions.
I decided to go with a servo motor from clearpath for the drive motor. (CPM-SDHP-N1433A-ELN) Thought is would be cheaper than a new motor, but by the time I added in the pulleys and things it ended up being about the same as a new motor. Should have plenty of torque though.

I tried adjusting the X axis gibs but ran out of adjustment, so I order some .005" shim stock. Haven't looked at y or z axis.

I have about .004" movement in the spindle when I push on it. Not sure but might need new bearings. Would it be likely that the bearings are the same as for a bridgeport?

The quill I could only get .0002 movement out of. So I think that is good.

Not sure if I should take the saddle and table off to check and make sure oil is getting where it should.

I have a bent x axis lead screw. Still turns fine, but would not be able to install a power drive on it. Might try bending it back, but looking for an suggestions?

Thanks for any suggestions.

One the straightening front...

Large flat surface, roll the bent rod along the surface, and watch to see where the high spot is as it rolls. A light on the other side can help a lot.

Use a hyd press, arbor press, or an improvised version of same, to apply pressure on the bend high point. Test on the table again, rinse, repeat, as required.
Us soft blocks of wood to support the screw as you work it, pad whatever you apply the pressure with with either a piece of wood, or soft metal like lead or possibly copper.

A lot of it is as much art as science. You will learn pretty quick, that you can bend it too much, or too little. Watch the cause and effect, and you should be able to work the screw straight again, provide the bend is not a sharp kink.

 

[Susquatch]

Not sure if I should take the saddle and table off to check and make sure oil is getting where it should.

Not 100% sure with your mill, but on my clone, I can see if the oil is getting to where it belongs by cranking the table to one end, pumping a few shots of oil, moving it 6 inchesor so, looking for oil, adding some more oil, moving the table, etc. By adding more oil than normally needed it's easy to see the excess and where it is.

I have a bent x axis lead screw. Still turns fine, but would not be able to install a power drive on it. Might try bending it back, but looking for an suggestions?

1x on what @trevj suggests. There may be better ways, but I straighten a lot of farm equipment and that's how I do that kind of thing too.

However, it's important to understand that it got bent like that by yielding somehow, and also that you have to yield it again the opposite way to straighten it. That often means it will happen again and also that the screw might be a bit weaker after straightening it than it was before it got bent.

 

[140mower]

That often means it will happen again and also that the screw might be a bit weaker after straightening it than it was before it got bent.

...... So, if possible in the future hit it with a smaller forklift than the last fellow used.....
.... Where's that damned couch now?

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Update on the Darbert mill and some questions.
I decided to go with a servo motor from clearpath for the drive motor. (CPM-SDHP-N1433A-ELN) Thought is would be cheaper than a new motor, but by the time I added in the pulleys and things it ended up being about the same as a new motor. Should have plenty of torque though.

I tried adjusting the X axis gibs but ran out of adjustment, so I order some .005" shim stock. Haven't looked at y or z axis.

I have about .004" movement in the spindle when I push on it. Not sure but might need new bearings. Would it be likely that the bearings are the same as for a bridgeport?

The quill I could only get .0002 movement out of. So I think that is good.

Not sure if I should take the saddle and table off to check and make sure oil is getting where it should.

I have a bent x axis lead screw. Still turns fine, but would not be able to install a power drive on it. Might try bending it back, but looking for an suggestions?

Thanks for any suggestions.

when you get down to installing the servo motor I'd be interested in coming to help out and see just how this goes. I want t have a long term back up plan for our bridgeport...

 

[Maker Mike]

Sure, not exactly sure of the timing though. Might be a couple of months.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Sure, not exactly sure of the timing though. Might be a couple of months.

no hurry, I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Maker Mike]

So I removed the spindle. The spacers were loose. I ordered new bearings from H&W, but I'm not sure if they are going to fit. My spindle bearings are 62mm and 72mm, which sounds like they would be different from what an actual bridgeport has, but I'm not sure.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

So I removed the spindle. The spacers were loose. I ordered new bearings from H&W, but I'm not sure if they are going to fit. My spindle bearings are 62mm and 72mm, which sounds like they would be different from what an actual bridgeport has, but I'm not sure.

A bold $400 USD gamble.

But IIRC BP bearing is 72mm x17 so you should be good

 

[Maker Mike]

Thank you, that was what I was hoping to hear.

 

[Susquatch]

Thank you, that was what I was hoping to hear.

I still have the boxes from my bearings. They are NTN 6208Z & 6207Z.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

I still have the boxes from my bearings. They are NTN 6208Z & 6207Z.

ok, which one is the size that there are two of?