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LED trouble lights

PeterT

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Yes & no. Maybe not in your league, but happy to share what little I know when we get together.
I guess I could say old school now, back in the NiCD & NiMH 'round cell' racing days 2004-2006 I made many packs which were end-to-end soldered with hammerhead tip. Anywhere from 7 to 18 cells depending on the configuration (other classes had 30-40 cells). So no inter-cell tabs except for the very end cells & the tabs were 8-10awg equivalent silver/copper bars. In this application direct inter-cell solder was required for minimum resistance, weight & compact form factor. The factory shrink was stripped & replaced with Kapton to take the heat (gold colored stuff). When Lithium polymer became legal for competition in 2008, it was more buy & fly mode. The packs were, and continue to be, factory made to whatever voltage/capacity/S&P (Series & Parallel) cell configuration, c/w pre-attached balancing harness etc. So our only job was to solder the leads for ESC & abuse them LOL.

I'm not that familiar with the robots/scooters/cars actually, but judging by some of the pictures of 'round cell' packs, eve though they are lithium chemistry, look like array bricks of cells in special trays & then those bricks are inter-wired to build up requisite pack voltage. Some of the joiner bars look quite intricate so I'm actually not sure if they are spot welded or somehow 'fit' because the cells look relatively normal. I'm also not sure how prevalent lithium polymer (rectangular packs) are in e-machines, but guessing they are similar to RC factory packs & then built up with bus bars or something? If you show me what you have for components or what the vision is, I can do what I can to pontificate & drink your beer HaHa. One potential difference is my stuff was 100-250 amps dictated by the motor wind & other factors, whereas I think the robots & such are higher voltage & (relatively) lower cell current. If so that likely translates into different, less onerous cell joinery techniques. I also have a buddy who was big into robot competitions, so we can swab him for intel too. I still want to see your beast in action!
 

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CalgaryPT

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Vendor
Premium Member
I'm planning ahead WRT batteries as the battery pack to power the mower itself is a 40V 5AH one that you can no longer buy. The mowers seem to last forever but lots of people on the internet says the 5AH packs fail after one year. I do have a 2.5 AH backup pack, but I like being able to mow the lawn without recharging packs. Plus, I want to try my hand at making one. I doubt I would be able to disassemble the existing pack and retrofit it with new cells, so I would just make my own enclosure. My pack has 3 terminals on it and from what I understand the third terminal sends a signal when the pack is too hot, and the mower shuts down. I need to figure this part out at some point. I think the terminal just goes high or low when a fault occurs...but I am just guessing.

When this silly virus thing is over we should get together of course. I never expected to use the mower except to do under low hanging trees, but it worked so well I just do the whole lawn with it. I am thinking of Version II at some point, as the swivel differential steering works great on flat surfaces, but is a pain on hills that you need to do lengthwise (up and down is fine). I'd like to build a smaller version with servo steering, a smaller wheelbase and axle track eventually.
 

PeterT

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Interesting. I assume you have a self contained battery unit repurposed from a power tool? From what I can see, it appears to be a popular format for variety of applications.

You might be right about the 3rd wire. Actually I am mystified by modern, multi-cell packs like power tools. I should delve into it. Typical RC (LiPo) packs have a multi-wire cable harness with wire to each cell, purely for diagnostics. The chargers plug into plus/minus mains of course but this balancing plug is integral to the process. It provides a lot more intel to the true condition of the pack because it knows about the voltage state/capacity/curve for each cell essentially. If a cell has degraded & different voltage (within prescribed limits) it can work its magic to equalize. This maintains pack health through many C/D cycles. My charger (which is nothing special) also displays useful metrics for each cell, even internal resistance. If cell(s) are way out of whack & the algorithm cant it manage it, it will basically say Error mode, not-gunna-do-it. That's a safety feature because some of the fires you hear about are related to this issue. Higher resistance, more heat etc.

The old round cell stick packs we made were basically charged from front to rear simultaneously as a pack, so bad cells dragged on the whole system. Those vintage chargers basically guessed at pack condition as a whole only by seeing the additive curve of all cells, weak & strong. So modern Lion packs kinds seem like a hybrid to me. I don't see pinouts that correspond to each cell like LiPo chargers, so it must be assuming 'similar' cells within limits? As mentioned above, I know many cells have a little smart board in them to protect themselves. That's apparently how many appliances work just hooked up to a dumb wall wart or USB type supply. But I can also for sure understand a temperature sensor wire &/or other safety features.

Like I said, my knowledge is a bit narrow banded. I was really into electric stuff at the time but it was rather confined to RC. My robot buddy who also flies said 'its all the same sh*t, just bigger LOL. But soldering something & electronics understanding are 2 different things. These 'flying welders' as we called them were stuffed like a sausage. I managed to re-orient/re-solder the caps on an ESC which allowed a bigger motor & bigger pack. Life was good until an evil elf switched the polarity on me. You don't want to be close when they go bang. I don't know much about capacitors but I know the plus & minus are important LOL. The BBQ picture was <ahem> a fast run but, excessive current.
 

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CalgaryPT

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Premium Member
Ahh yes, methinks we should pool knowledge at some point. You've got quite a bit more than I do on this topic already. Actually the 5 AH came with the mower (Kobalt). On closer inspection it isn't sealed in fact; there are screws holding it together, so I will take it apart soon to check out the guts. I really want to understand the extra terminals so I can build my own. The pack snaps into the mower and I now see it actually has four, not three pins—so even a bigger challenge to sort these out. But the pack provides voltage for the mower blade only.

The drive motors (two 24V wheelchair motors) are powered by two 12V 35AH conventional lead acid batteries wired in series. They also power the onboard electronics using a Buck converter to supply a 5VDC bus for the two Arduinos and receiver. The motors are controlled via HD 24V relays, which also control the magnetic brakes on each drive motor via a receiver/relay combination.

There are some onboard electronics to the mower as well, some of which adjust power to the mower blade as needed in tall grass. It took me a while to figure out how to defeat the safety features on the mower as it used a funky mechanical switch in combination with the electronics to start the blade. You have to apply power in a specific, timed, sequence to get it spinning. I had to simulate this electronically.

Don't feel too badly about your capacitors and the polarity issue. I actually fried my Sabertooth 2x60 Controller ($300+) when I over extended a power lead in a bus bar, shorting it against the heat sink. I rushed out and bought a new one, only to discover the company offered to repair the one I damaged for free. Amazing.

When I take the pack apart I will report back. It may be as simple as replacing the 3.6V cells inside. There is at least one company online that rebuilds these, so it can't be that hard.

On a fabrication note I was shocked the 16G steel box for the electronics didn't inhibit the receiver like a big old Faraday shield or something. I never range tested it, but did leave a shielded pass through just in case I needed to switch to a receiver with an external antenna. In the end it worked fine for the range needed.

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PeterT

Ultra Member
Premium Member
I wish I had your electrical knowledge!
You've probably been YouTube surfing on this topic already but I just googled 'ryobi 40v pack disassembly' to get a feel for what's inside. Looks like 18650 cells, integrated board, plastic racks to align the cells. Maybe those cells are 'ordinary' and the mini motherboard has the cell management smarts? Mostly I was curious about inter-cell joining & looks like spot welded tabs which is quite common. Pretty sure that's a fully automated robot/factory process. I've made my own replacement packs for drills & such back in the day mostly to use up inventory cells I had kicking around & the drill was worth saving. But sometimes the Dewalts & Makita's of the world make it darn tough, the housing can be crammed to the extent that ONLY weld strips can be used vs solder bars. There are places in town that have that welding equipment, they make up packs that way. I know people who would buy timed out packs & harvest cells. I can see for certain projects that would be viable, but you have to have the gear to capacity check cells individually & that's time consuming.

Is 5Ahr enough for you? Reason I ask is there are some deep cycle lithium based batteries for boats/RV etc. I'm going t switch to one next season for my field charge battery, much lower weight, better power density. But I think they start around 10Ahr. But 3x12=36v or 4x12=48V maybe not a suitable match to your 40v nominal depending on your requirements.




Teardown video. Lookout, he's got a saw! LOL

 

CalgaryPT

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Vendor
Premium Member
I wish I had your electrical knowledge!
....

Is 5Ahr enough for you?
Trust me...I ain't that smart.

5AH is just perfect for my size of lawn in Tuscany. Actually, if I were using the mower as intended (as a push mower), I could likely mow the whole lawn with a 2.5 AH battery. But it actually takes longer with the RC mower as you are always backing up and re-doing patches. The long wheel base makes it tough in corners—despite its differential steering and maneuverability. Part of this is aging hand-eye coordination I suspect. A 14 year old kid with those gigantic XBox thumbs could probably do it in 10 mins :)

I'll start compiling a page of links on all this stuff, yours included. I fear the bug to build a Version II is growing in me as we speak and I should probably suppress it for a while...at least until the Christmas VISA bills are paid down.

We'll chat more on this in the future I suspect Peter. It's always great reading your insights.
 
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