Home Security System

[Susquatch]

My wife and I updated our wills earlier this year. While signing the paper work I asked if something like digital signing similar to what I've experienced at my bank would replace the paper signing in his profession. He said it won't happen and there are laws to prevent it from changing. He sounded almost thankful that it is a protected practice.

Must be a special place you live in. I deal with Lawyers a lot. I have not used a fax in 20 years. But yes, I have one! In fact, my son in law is a lawyer. I asked him how much he uses a fax. He said they have one but have not used it since he joined the firm and wouldn't even know how. Apparently they have one old guy at the office who does. None of the clerks and paralegals do.

Absolute chaos for about 2-3 weeks. Last I heard they spent a lot more money and are still at stage 1 of a second attempt that is far behind the expected roll out timeline.

Getting away from older technology can be a very disruptive and damaging process.

No doubt very true. The problem you describe is hospital management and finance. Now imagine health care itself!

I served on the Premier of Ontario's Innovation Council a decade ago. Among other opportunities, we studied the healthcare system and identified records and communication as a very significant cost issue that did nothing to improve health care in Ontario.

Few if any hospitals in Ontario shared records or even exchanged test results. You needed another Catscan and every other test if you had to move to another hospital. Even your personal records had to photocopied and re-entered manually at another hospital or just scanned such that the data couldn't be used directly. Very inefficient. Who hasn't been treated in emergency and watched doctors spend more time writing or reading reports than caring for those whe need it? That's only partly an insurance/liability issue - it's also a system issue.

We recommended that all Ontario health care systems be commonized with a futurized system that was already proven in another part of the world and/or at the best example institution or network of institutions in Canada and then phased in as they were validated so that disasters like the one you describe could not happen.

Fundamentally, I believe that gains are not likely without pain. But stupidity always reins supreme. Those charged with making things happen are not usually those who are actually best to do it - not to mention conflicts of interest, bureaucratic growth, and of course the proverbial money trail.

 

[Elektrishun]

Must be a special place you live in. I deal with Lawyers a lot. I have not used a fax in 20 years. But yes, I have one! In fact, my son in law is a lawyer. I asked him how much he uses a fax. He said they have one but have not used it since he joined the firm and wouldn't even know how. Apparently they have one old guy at the office who does. None of the clerks and paralegals do.

I wasn't referring to a FAX specifically. I was replying to your statement, "A good example of the change is the rocketing popularity of "DocuSign", an electronic signature system that is now ubiquitously used by entire industries including Canadian institutions like banks, law offices, the courts, and real estate offices."

According to the lawyer I spoke to something like DocuSign is not legal for legal documents. For example, the Wills we signed. Whereas at the bank, just a couple weeks earlier, we painfully went through the process of digitally signing investments, multiple times due to technical issues. The two closely occurring events is why I asked him about a similar technology being used in his profession.

 

[Susquatch]

According to the lawyer I spoke to something like DocuSign is not legal for legal documents.

Far be it from me to argue with your lawyer. What I can say is that I have signed affidavits, Probate Court applications, real estate purchases and sales, bank releases, bank account closures, witness documents, investment releases, insurance claims, and prolly many others I can't even remember and not one of them used a fax. All were by DocuSign. If that is not legal, I am in a LOT OF TROUBLE!

My lawyer son in law says your lawyer is probably right about wills, but that won't last. He thinks he is prolly old, stuck in a time warp, and doesn't like change. According to him, any place where faxes are legal, so is DocuSign (or its equivalents). There are a few notable exceptions such as Wills and POAs but faxes are not allowed there either (see below). He is a litigation lawyer. I would think he knows what is legal and not legal cuz he is the guy who argues this stuff in court.

Beyond that, I know from personal knowledge that Canada recently passed legislation that allows electronic signatures and electronic meetings. The relevant Act of Parliament is the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA), which treats electronic signatures as equivalent to handwritten signatures. The Canada Corporations Act & Not For Profit Corporations Act both reflect that Act. However, like many other aspects of law, individual provincial and municipal regulations can take precedence.

Consequently, there are a few well defined exceptions to the Federal Law in some provinces. As you pointed out, most provinces still require that wills and power of attorneys have properly witnessed "wet ink" signatures. However, faxes are not allowed either. The exceptions are BC and Saskatchewan which do allow approved electronic signatures for Wills and POAs. In my opinion, it's only a matter of time before the other provinces follow suit for things like wills and POAs too.

Regardless, the debate isn't about wet ink vs electronic signatures, it's about faxes vs electronic signatures. There, I think the battle is basically over.

 

[Elektrishun]

Regardless, the debate isn't about wet ink vs electronic signatures, it's about faxes vs electronic signatures. There, I think the battle is basically over.

No battle. I am a middle man relaying information and making sure it is clear.

Interesting discrepancy in information. Maybe the lawyer I spoke to was referring only to Wills.
Maybe I will get a chance to ask him again some day for clarification.

 

[Susquatch]

No battle. I am a middle man relaying information and making sure it is clear.

For me, debates are not battles. They are a simple search for the truth and often just for whatever outcome makes the most sense. I never let my emotions get in the way and when someone else does, I back away. Winning or losing is not a goal because I always learn from a good respectful debate with a knowledgeable experienced colleague and therefore I enjoy them.

In other words, thank you for what you have added to what I know now.

 

[Elektrishun]

In other words, thank you for what you have added to what I know now.

Another question - if I leave a "thumbs-up" emoji does that now mean I legally agree to everything you said? 🙂