Tool Good Quality Files and where to purchase them?

[ChazzC]

Y'know, I figured this out in Grade 8 Shop Classes. Did a LOT of draw file work in Metal Shop classes!

More folks need to know about draw filing: gave me great results cleaning up the side of my Indexing Plates (still on sale, made in [& shipped from] Canada):

There is still the "shadow" of the laser cuts, but the sides are smooth to the touch and flat & square.


I didn't bother cleaning up the hot-rolled faces, just sanded off the worst of the mill scale – I think it's a nice look (I did spray them with T-9):

 

[StevSmar]

Good files come from wherever you can find them, and Brand Name, does not, always, make a file good...

That's definitely true, however buying a "good quality" brand generally does increase the probability of getting a good quality product.

My response has reminded me of when I was thinking of buying an expensive Classical Guitar. There's a mystery surrounding what it is that actually makes a very good instrument. Sometimes cheap guitars can be fantastic and sometimes expensive guitars can be duds. I asked the luthier how he could guarantee the guitar would be one I liked and he give an honest answer that essentially was: "he didn't really know what it was that made his guitars great, but he only uses top quality materials that increase the chances his guitars will be what the customer has dreamed of". Not directly applicable to files though, since a fantastic type of file can repeatably be made fantastic.

 

[trevj]

That's definitely true, however buying a "good quality" brand generally does increase the probability of getting a good quality product.

My response has reminded me of when I was thinking of buying an expensive Classical Guitar. There's a mystery surrounding what it is that actually makes a very good instrument. Sometimes cheap guitars can be fantastic and sometimes expensive guitars can be duds. I asked the luthier how he could guarantee the guitar would be one I liked and he give an honest answer that essentially was: "he didn't really know what it was that made his guitars great, but he only uses top quality materials that increase the chances his guitars will be what the customer has dreamed of". Not directly applicable to files though, since a fantastic type of file can repeatably be made fantastic.

Problem, as I have experienced, is that the batch to batch consistency from even name brand files, is somewhere between disappointing, to dismal.

Nicholson files that were made in the US, out of actual high carbon steel, used to be pretty good in general. Then they started selling the same files, under the same name, but made in Brazil. Then they cheaped out and started making files out of lower carbon content steel, and case hardening them. Then they outsourced to China, at which point I might as well buy Chinese name branded files from the import resellers, and see if they work... At least THOSE are not selling you on the basis of a long established, but easily ruined, reputation. Nor are they priced as if you are getting the same quality as you used to get. Some of the cheap files even work really well, but they cost a fraction of what the Brand name does...

Short form, Brand is only as good as the product they provide. If the hang a top brand name on crap products, they diminish the brand, and it soon becomes apparent that they are not worth buying. 'Not', apparently, the lessons they teach business admin types in school any more...

I have had some Grobet files ($$!), that were disappointments. On the other hand, I have yet to find a crappy Dumont Tweezer (though you pretty much pay in blood and future offspring for them these days). The brand is only as good as it's latest round of offerings.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

Draw filing is for looks, as it can throw your accuracy out. The English were really into fitting, millwrights are called fitters even, which involves filing and scraping. I'm ashamed to say some of my files are in such bad shape you can use them as mirrors.

 

[trevj]

Draw filing is for looks, as it can throw your accuracy out. The English were really into fitting, millwrights are called fitters even, which involves filing and scraping. I'm ashamed to say some of my files are in such bad shape you can use them as mirrors.

If the user has the skills, and works with care, one can quite easily file to thousandths accuracy. Draw filing is as accurate as the user is... It applies directly, as a means of deburring parts too! A gentle pass with a single cut file will knock the sharp edges off, in a very controllable manner. Provided that the user understands the basic principles.

A fella I met had his grandfathers 'apprentice' project, which was required to be done before one advanced to using powered tools in his Machinist apprenticeship, which was a rectangle of steel plate, roughly half inch thick, in which three holes were drilled with a 1/2 inch drill, the only powered tool that was allowed in the making. The plate was filed externally, square and parallel.

The three holes were then filed out to fit the 'plug', which was square from a side view, a triangle from the second angle, and round from the top view. The plug started out as an inch of round bar stock and inch in diameter.

Finished dimension of the round plug profile, was required to be 7/8 of an inch, and the holes had to allow a .0015" feeler gage to be freely inserted, but not a .0025 gage, in all holes, and in any orientation of the plug.

I used to demonstrate that it was not all that hard to file the center of the face of a bar, without touching the edges, by knowing your file (each is almost inevitably curved a wee bit concave on one side, and convex on the other) and knowing how to apply pressure with your fingers while holding it, flexing the face of the file as needed.

Files don't get enough respect, and most users don't take near the care storing and handling them, that they should get.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

I worked downstream of jobber machine shops. I got a lot of practice filing to get a fit.

 

[ChazzC]

If the user has the skills, and works with care, one can quite easily file to thousandths accuracy. Draw filing is as accurate as the user is... It applies directly, as a means of deburring parts too! A gentle pass with a single cut file will knock the sharp edges off, in a very controllable manner. Provided that the user understands the basic principles.

A fella I met had his grandfathers 'apprentice' project, which was required to be done before one advanced to using powered tools in his Machinist apprenticeship, which was a rectangle of steel plate, roughly half inch thick, in which three holes were drilled with a 1/2 inch drill, the only powered tool that was allowed in the making. The plate was filed externally, square and parallel.

The three holes were then filed out to fit the 'plug', which was square from a side view, a triangle from the second angle, and round from the top view. The plug started out as an inch of round bar stock and inch in diameter.

Finished dimension of the round plug profile, was required to be 7/8 of an inch, and the holes had to allow a .0015" feeler gage to be freely inserted, but not a .0025 gage, in all holes, and in any orientation of the plug.

I used to demonstrate that it was not all that hard to file the center of the face of a bar, without touching the edges, by knowing your file (each is almost inevitably curved a wee bit concave on one side, and convex on the other) and knowing how to apply pressure with your fingers while holding it, flexing the face of the file as needed.

Files don't get enough respect, and most users don't take near the care storing and handling them, that they should get.

I recall stories that apprentices used to be (100 +/- years ago) given a roughly 3” cube-ish lump of steel and told to make a perfect cube (determined by the boss using his square & micrometers): most ended up with a ~1” cube, sometimes months later.

 

[Tom O]

I have a 1 1/2 inch brass cube in Dads toolbox he said years ago that people applying for a apprenticeship were handed it and a file and were told to make it square.

 

[Arbutus]

Here's mine. Been on the shelf for 40 years..

 

[StevSmar]

In practical terms, when wound you use a single cut versus double cut file?

 

[Arbutus]

I prefer a clean, flat single cut file for finishing. By 'clean' I mean free of burrs and swarf.

 

[ChazzC]

In practical terms, when wound you use a single cut versus double cut file?

Typically, a double-cut file cuts faster than a single-file of the same coarseness. See:

Crescent Nicholson Guide to Files and Filing

Introduction Choosing the right file can be confusing; with so many sizes, shapes and cuts available it is difficult

www.crescenttool.com

 

[Tom O]

Real men don’t use files.

 

[SomeGuy]

Problem, as I have experienced, is that the batch to batch consistency from even name brand files, is somewhere between disappointing, to dismal.

Nicholson files that were made in the US, out of actual high carbon steel, used to be pretty good in general. Then they started selling the same files, under the same name, but made in Brazil. Then they cheaped out and started making files out of lower carbon content steel, and case hardening them. Then they outsourced to China, at which point I might as well buy Chinese name branded files from the import resellers, and see if they work... At least THOSE are not selling you on the basis of a long established, but easily ruined, reputation. Nor are they priced as if you are getting the same quality as you used to get. Some of the cheap files even work really well, but they cost a fraction of what the Brand name does...

Short form, Brand is only as good as the product they provide. If the hang a top brand name on crap products, they diminish the brand, and it soon becomes apparent that they are not worth buying. 'Not', apparently, the lessons they teach business admin types in school any more...

I have had some Grobet files ($$!), that were disappointments. On the other hand, I have yet to find a crappy Dumont Tweezer (though you pretty much pay in blood and future offspring for them these days). The brand is only as good as it's latest round of offerings.

I went and checked out all my relatively recent Nicholson files, not one from China...mostly Mexico, some Brazil.

 

[trevj]

In practical terms, when wound you use a single cut versus double cut file?

Double cut files tend to cut a little freer, but do not leave as smooth a finish. I would say, a Double Cut to move material, while you want a single cut for a finer finished result. The chips off a double cut tend to be smaller and fall clear of the teeth a bit easier. If your file gets pinned (chips jammed in the teeth, it can leave some pretty ugly marks on the work. Worth buying a decent file card (the brush-like tool with a set of brush bristles on one side, and a set of steel wire bristles on the other, made for cleaning files) and a scrap of copper or brass sheet to use to break out the really stubborn jams. If your work is not wet or oily, a wipe of chalkboard chalk across the face of the file can stop pinning too.

Draw Filing with a double cut, is problematic as a result. When you draw file, with a single cut file, you can adjust the angle that the teeth meet the work, from being directly at 90 degrees, to having the teeth almost parallel to the work surface, depending on the finish and the amount of material you wish to remove. The amount of removal possible, as well as the finish, when you stay on your game, surprise a lot of folks that are not familiar with the process. Files for use on the Lathe, usually have a steeper angle than the cut on a hand file, using the same principle as one can manipulate the tooth orientation, using what is accepted to work well. A lathe file will have a tooth angle close to 60 degrees from horizontal, while a regular single cut is at around 30 or so

Single cut when deburring an edge on the lathe. I like to see what is happening, rather than guessing, so I stand with the file under the part, handle end nearer the backsplash. Particularly handy when you want a fairly large bevel, a freehand radius, or you are tapering a leade on part in preparation for a press fit. Most of the work done this way has you then, standing facing towards the headstock, one hand on each side of the work, well clear of chuck jaws etc.

 

[StevSmar]

Crescent Nicholson Guide to Files and Filing

Introduction Choosing the right file can be confusing; with so many sizes, shapes and cuts available it is difficult

www.crescenttool.com

Thanks, that’s helpful.

Below illustrates what I don’t understand about Bastard files:
On the left a Mill Bastard (Cresent-Nicholson)
In the middle a Mill Bastard (Wiltshire)
On the right a Flat Bastard (Nicholson)

And their reverse sides:

So what I don’t understand is that aren’t all Bastard’s the same cut? Or is the problem that I’m comparing Bastards from different countries? But the Bastards on the outside are both Nicholson’s…
I just don’t get it.

 

[David]

And then there's Flat Stanley, the Flat Bastard's nice cousin.
(sorry, it's been a really long day)

 

[trevj]

Thanks, that’s helpful.

Below illustrates what I don’t understand about Bastard files:
On the left a Mill Bastard (Cresent-Nicholson)
In the middle a Mill Bastard (Wiltshire)
On the right a Flat Bastard (Nicholson)
View attachment 62584
And their reverse sides:
View attachment 62585
So what I don’t understand is that aren’t all Bastard’s the same cut? Or is the problem that I’m comparing Bastards from different countries? But the Bastards on the outside are both Nicholson’s…
I just don’t get it.

"Bastard" is just an indicator that the file's cut is between a Coarse and a Medium cut, rather than a specific number of teeth per inch.

File size matters too, as a Bastard cut on a 6" file is going to be much finer than the Bastard cut on a 12" or 14" file.

To my knowledge, there is not an accepted "Standard" pitch used in the industry, like there are with, say, threads.

 

[ChazzC]

Thanks, that’s helpful.

Below illustrates what I don’t understand about Bastard files:
On the left a Mill Bastard (Cresent-Nicholson)
In the middle a Mill Bastard (Wiltshire)
On the right a Flat Bastard (Nicholson)
View attachment 62584
So what I don’t understand is that aren’t all Bastard’s the same cut? Or is the problem that I’m comparing Bastards from different countries? But the Bastards on the outside are both Nicholson’s…
I just don’t get it.

Maybe Nicholson included the "L" by mistake?

 

[StevSmar]

"Bastard" is just an indicator that the file's cut is between a Coarse and a Medium cut, rather than a specific number of teeth per inch.

Wow, that actually makes sense on the origin of the term. “Pass me Fred’s file- the bastardized one that’s half way between the Course and Medium”. Poor Fred had been forgotten to time, but his bastardized file system lives on.

Maybe Nicholson included the "L" by mistake?

The file is older than the movie unfortunately… But I enjoyed your suggestion!