Free Energy

[slow-poke]

For city use like you think you will experience, an EV might make good sense. At least for now. It might be a different story when everyone in the city plugs in their EV at the same time each evening.

The grid runs at a small percentage of its capability every night while everyone is asleep, great time to charge. Even cheap chargers are smart, they will charge when rates are low or when solar is producing more than needed. I did a lot of work for a solar company based in Texas over the last 12 years and countless commercial buildings now generate more solar power than their A/C and lights can consume. Business is booming and they love it.

I don't see the ICE going away anytime soon for things like tractors, that's where the energy density of HC's and quick refueling is required at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[PeterT]

The grid runs at a small percentage of its capability every night while everyone is asleep, great time to charge

I guess one would have to define small but eyeballing the charts, base is what 80% of peak in cold months? Behind the scenes, fuel consumption is reduced correspondingly so you have just moved the location of (typically hydrocarbon) fuel unless you live in France with high % of nuclear. Of course load varies by region & load types & other variables. Yes, night time vehicle charging makes sense. It might be the ONLY time in larger centers which are already constrained & built with some degree of 'ordinary' population growth & energy demand that requires. The question is, can the existing grid handle the load of vehicular conversion on a large scale wholesale basis? I'm sure this has been studied to death, but when the numbers vary wildly I get suspicious. If the answer is yes 'but', what is the cost? Somebody somewhere pays & I'm pretty sure I know who. Solar panel efficiencies are getting better, but every time I read a about a home based e-augmentation, seems like payout is > 10 years (typically with incentives which aren't universal). Is that in the ballpark or are they making headway? Last time my shingles needed replacing I looked into it & the math did not go around, but maybe things have changed.

Hourly electricity consumption varies throughout the day and across seasons - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

 

[Tom O]

Don’t forget the Government is pushing those heat pumps so expect the consumption to go up in the summer even more when they switch over to AC .
Personally I’m waiting for a hurricane , tornado, or hailstorm to take out a Solar farm.

 

[140mower]

Screw them all, I am putting my puppies in a giant hamster wheel and converting to lineshaft....
...define puppy mill.

 

[Susquatch]

Jeesh.

Plantoline, not puppiline Don!

 

[slow-poke]

I guess one would have to define small but eyeballing the charts, base is what 80% of peak in cold months?

Peak (in the graph) in the cold months is not peak capability it's just peak demand, the summer months show something closer to peak capability. So the 80% base to peak during winter is not particularly relevant. Looks to be less than 60% of actual capability.

As you can see in the graph Summer (with the A/C load) tends to be more of a problem time then winter. We export a lot of power to the USA, especially Manitoba and Quebec, perhaps we will need to export less during peak times.

No question the grid will need to grow a lot. I did quite a bit of design work for a company that provides wind generation equipment and business is booming big time, tends to be the least expensive form of generation now, so expect a lot more.

 

[JustaDB]

...business is booming big time...

'Course it is! Lookit all the subsidies/incentives/whatever you want to disguise 'em as. I got no issues w/ the free market picking winners & losers. My concern is the gov't, via taxpayer funded incentives, picking winners & losers. No way in hell this stuff makes it in a true free market.

 

[slow-poke]

'Course it is! Lookit all the subsidies/incentives/whatever you want to disguise 'em as. I got no issues w/ the free market picking winners & losers. My concern is the gov't, via taxpayer funded incentives, picking winners & losers. No way in hell this stuff makes it in a true free market.

Visit a coal fired generator station, and then look at the simplicity of a wind generator and you will wonder how it only cost 3x more to run the coal plant. Same thing for hydro generation. I visited small remote operated 50MW plants that had no regular staff, it's bordering on eerie. Coal fired plant I worked at had 100+ employees.

100% agree that the subsidies handed out in Ontario were beyond incomprehensible. Most of the booming business I referred to was not going to Ontario mostly to the USA. The cost of generation scale has tipped in favour of wind in many places and the almighty dollar always wins.

I remember chatting with an engineer at our biggest client PG&E about wind generation and he stated 15 years ago we had a lot of skeptics but now these things just keep running and running with minimal maintenance and really low cost, now they want us to build more.

 

[Susquatch]

Coal fired plant I worked at had 100+ employees.

Wow..... That's 5x what I would have expected. Was some of that grid control and maintenance just located on the same site?

I think we are all saying the same thing and for the most part bitching about government interference in the marketplace.

I also hate them because they surround me, they are ugly, and they are VERY noisy. I hear infrasounds. Might be my size or compensation for loss of high frequency hearing. Those Fkg things generate infrasounds that carry for miles. I can feel them in my guts. They keep me awake on medium windy nights.

I also hate them for the money they wasted on them.

I once penned a letter to the Premier suggesting that instead of turning 400 miles of coastline into ugly wind farms, he should consider diverting all the water for Niagara Falls into turbines and concentrate the ugliness into one place. Of course, my tongue was in cheek, but the point to him was that these huge windfarms are stupid when you can focus your generation and build a better cheaper infrastructure around them.. I never did send the letter. I was a member of his innovation council at the time and felt it would be a career limiting move.

I know it's unpopular, but I favour nuclear and hydro generation as the primary source of base power with hydro, gas, and selected CoGen to handle the swings. It won't happen in my lifetime.

 

[Ironman]

There may not be any lights in the night or dinner cooked, etc. For a few miles around, while recharging, if the grid will even handle it!
Long and short of it, for the moment, it's easy to pack a 5 gallon/20litre container of fuel in the back, but a spare battery pack?!?
Anyone been hearing thing about Tesla transport trucks, or others lately?
Please note, the above has not factored in any losses, size of wiring, and I don't know what else!

The other thing to note about farming is that EVERY farmer in the area is doing the same job at the same time. You work 24 hours a day in harvest to get the crop off before the rain comes.
And yes, doubling up on the motive power is the only way. All electrics have a 50% downtime built in for charging. And you won't hear a peep about the trucks, Barnum and Bailey can't hold a candle to Elon Musk.

 

[slow-poke]

No question hydro if you have suitable rivers are the model of simplicity, Quebec is blessed.

The Lakeview coal plant I worked at for about a year was a good size 1200MW (when everything was working which was not all the time), it was sbout about 8-10 stories high and about a 1/4mile long full of an endless maze of pulverizers, pipes, and pumps. Seems like the maintenance people were forever fixing something. They spent $1.2B using > 1000 employees rehabbing 2 of the 8 units and then shut the entire plant down a few years later.

Each of the larger hydro generating stations in Manitoba generate more power than Lakeview, and there is so much head on the river that they can install many more plants in the future. With the low population in Manitoba, they sell a good portion to the USA. Interesting that the power from up North gets sent to the South via two conductors and sometimes with just one conductor instead of the usual three.

 

[Bandit]

I am not sure I understand, "sending power via two conductors and sometimes with just one conductor instead of the usual three". Is this something to do with the amount of power being sent/demanded? current? voltage? But I also don't know what voltage etc. is on the main transmission lines. 6000 volts? Somewhere 15000 volts come to mind. This likely varies, big cross country lines much higher then in town lines?
In many cases see just a single line for the "juice" and the ground (dirt, earth, soil) the return/"ground" to complete the circuit, lower voltage, single phase.
"Free Energy" throw a coil of wire on the ground under a electricial line and get "free" power. A friend had a fence under a power line, said was not always fun to repair. Is this a"urban", lets call it "rural" myth? LOL!
What I don't know.

 

[JustaDB]

Visit a coal fired generator station, and then look at the simplicity of a wind generator and you will wonder how it only cost 3x more to run the coal plant.

Mebbe. Are you multiplying that by the thousands of windmills spread across the country? Are you including the cost of constructing the windmill farm into that equation? Roads, power lines, concrete footings, cranes, switching gear, etc., etc., etc? And what about the 20 year lifespan, plus or minus? And once they do calve, what about the cost of demolition? Most of the materials aren't recyclable, either. The concrete bases (which carry a massive CO2 footprint, never mentioned in the literature) are never removed. And, if your claim about lower manpower is true, then someone has been lying to us about all the jobs that green energy was s'pose to generate. Shocked, I know.

But that coal-fired or natural gas generator will run 24/7/365 for a lot longer than 20 years, save for brief maintenance, at or near nameplate capacity. During the recent cold snap here in southern Alberta wind was furnishing tenths of a percent of nameplate capacity. That's not atypical, as any pilot will tell you. Same problem in the summertime, when air conditioning is needed. The only power available was based on carbon generation, coal & natural gas. Windmills were actually consuming electricity to prevent them from freezing up. I guess all we need is more of the unsightly things taking up even more arable land.

Solar is also a joke. Nothing at night (longish in the winter) and little better during the day under a fresh snowfall.

I brook few issues w/ hydroelectric, but it's pretty scarce out here on the bald-assed prairie. I'm all over nukes, but there is a certain segment of the population that is dead against nuclear. Interestingly, there has even been some recent movement by them towards that possibility. If falls something short of acceptance, but it's not nearly as opposed.

What every person on the planet needs is baseline power with the capacity to cover all demands. Then, if the market allows it, throw in some renewable to top it off. We cannot use renewables as baseline because they are simply not dependable. That's why our grids are near failing. Sooner or later people will die because of this and the SOB's in their ivory towers who made the call will not be held accountable. That infuriates me more than anything.

 

[slow-poke]

I am not sure I understand, "sending power via two conductors and sometimes with just one conductor instead of the usual three". Is this something to do with the amount of power being sent/demanded?

The two or in some cases one conductor has to do with the technology used to transfer the power, not the amount, they are sending a LOT of power but they convert it to DC, where typically power is sent as three phase a.c.

For DC you only need two conductors, and in some cases they just use one and use the earth for the return path. DC transmission is more expensive at short distances because of the required conversion equipment, however at long distances or under water DC is less expensive even with the conversion equipment. There are also other advantages for example system stability. I worked on the conversion equipment it's reasonably complex. Power transmission lines (not feeders), typically operate at 115, or 230kV.
The DC links in Manitoba operates at ~+/- 500kV or 1MV, they send between 1600-1800MW down each of the two bi-pole links.

 

[Susquatch]

The DC links in Manitoba operates at ~+/- 500kV or 1MV, they send between 1600-1800MW down each of the two bi-pole links.

I just learned something.

I'd never have guessed that there was DC anyplace on the grid. Funny my buddy who was the Grid Director for Ontario Hydro never mentioned it despite our many conversations on the subject.

He was a funny guy though. Smart as a whip for high voltage but missing a few gears with low voltage stuff. I guess that's what happens when you specialize.

Just out of curiosity, how DO they convert high power high voltage DC to AC? Massive motor generators?

 

[whydontu]

There’s lots going on in this sector, but it doesn’t get publicity because it’s not sexy or aggravating.

Executive Power in Victoria operates small run-of-river hydroelectric plants. One I visited is in Port Alberni, west side of Vancouver Island. Medium sized hill (a mountain for you a prairie folks). Big catch basin 1/3 of the way down the hill, feeding a 12” penstock pipe. Penstock drops to the base of the hill, where a hydropower turbine is located in a shed smaller than some of our home shops. Discharge of the turbine goes into another catch basin, slows it down enough that it doesn’t disturb the fish in the nearby creek. Same water that would normally flows off the hill into the creek. Rain and melting snow provide enough water to run the plant about six months of the year.

Shed is located on the side of the hill away from the highway, so not visible.

Most expensive part of the build was running the power lines from the shed to the power lines that run from Port Alberni to Tofino.

No staff on site, system is monitored and controlled remotely from a small office near the Empress Hotel in Victoria.

But you never heard of this before because it just works, without mega-$$$ investments, grants, subsidies, or politicians bragging or whining.

 

[DPittman]

Is it possible that when discussion involves political motives, government subsidies or failures, etc that we are far beyond our forum guidelines and purposes?

 

[Susquatch]

Is it possible that when discussion involves political motives, government subsidies or failures, etc that we are far beyond our forum guidelines and purposes?

It is. But I think the reason for the rule applies. As long as nobody is offended or offends, it's prolly ok. Attributing the problems to a particular party or a particular person wouldn't fly.

But you are right to raise a flag. It helps keep everyone on the right side of the line in the sand. And we are definitely dancing close.

If anyone is offended by the conversation, send me a PM and I'll try to clean it up.

 

[slow-poke]

I just learned something.

I'd never have guessed that there was DC anyplace on the grid. Funny my buddy who was the Grid Director for Ontario Hydro never mentioned it despite our many conversations on the subject.

Just out of curiosity, how DO they convert high power high voltage DC to AC? Massive motor generators?

I worked for Ontario Hydro and they do not use any DC links that I'm aware of.

Manitoba Hydro now uses three "Bi-Pole" DC links, Bi-Pole 1 is pretty old and uses massive English Electric mercury arc valves (think really big tubes). Bi-Pole2 and the new Bi-Pole 3 use ABB thyristors, BP3 can transmit 2000MW.

When BP1 was commissioned it was the highest voltage, highest power transmission line in the world.

To give some perspective, they send almost as much power via the DC links as all of the power generated at Bruce Nuclear ( closer to your neck of the woods, so you might have visited).

The seven biggest generation stations on the planet are all hydro.

I recall watching the rotor of one of the big generators up north, they are huge and the clearance to the stator is really small, the sense of power and the thought of what would happen if something went sideways is a scary thought, I would want to be far away.

When I was at Lakeview we did some really cool testing of the static exciters that are used to control these large generators. We introduced step changes into the feedback loop while tuning the PSS Power System Stabilizers. With a strobe on the generator shaft the step changes would rock the shaft back and forth relative to the power system while we tuned for the ideal damped sinewave response. Not for the faint of heart.

 

[Susquatch]

None in Ontario eh? Well that does explain why my buddy never mentioned it.

Not for the faint of heart.

Maybe not. But I'd still love to see it.

The tube analogy isn't enough for me. My bulb isn't glowing. A bit much to ask you to take the time to explain. Do you know of a writeup someplace that describes how that acdc conversion is done at those power levels?