• Spring 2024 meetup in Calgary - tentative date Saturday, April 20/2024. Other regions are also discussing meet ups. If you want one in your area get going on organizing it! discussion
  • We are having email/registration problems again. Diagnosis is underway. New users sorry if you are having trouble getting registered. We are exploring different options to get registered. Contact the forum via another member or on facebook if you're stuck. Update -> we think it is fixed. Let us know if not.
  • Spring meet up in Ontario, Newmarket, April 6/2024. Discussion

Tool Face Mill recommendations please

Tool

slow-poke

Ultra Member
The F85's. 442's were too expensive at the time.. Much like your Mustang haha..
Had a family of kids to feed at the time so..,
I went outside the norm in Olds... Pulled up with a 76 Olds Cutlass Supreme.

Pulled the wheezy 350 out, built a 461CI
Fabricated 9" rear with 433 gear/ 14x32-15 tire
Car went 11.53 @ 115 MPH, 1.572 60 FT in full street trim at the time.
That's a lot of cubic inches must be a torque monster.

My 65 with normally aspirated small block full interior but with 28x9 slicks, granny shifted to 10.7@128MPH through the mufflers.
Sounds like we were making similar power, yours more torque. I'm guessing the 65 is a good 500-700lbs lighter maybe more? Rule of thumb every 100 lbs is a tenth.

Apparently they tested a 427 vette against the 427 AC Cobra. 0 to 100MPH to 0
The Cobra was stopped at the end when the vette was just getting to 100MPH. CS had the weight aspect figured out.
33395D82-EA24-44C7-AA37-D422BA4127C7.jpeg
 
Last edited:

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
This is where my fun started. Well, the ADD side of things anyway...
Automotive deficit disorder I think we called it .
Pictures from pictures come in upside down here I guess but,
The wife will dig through the engine build pics and time slips to post if nobody screams.
I have some cool pics machining the engine block, heads, and crank, including nitriding and coatings for the wear parts at the time... so I think this should stay in line with the forum rules ????
The memory has faded some. This was around 2001 IIRC. Now looking at these pics upside down, well, I would say my wallet was upside down quite often as well...
 

Attachments

  • 20230226_160330.jpg
    20230226_160330.jpg
    366.7 KB · Views: 13
Last edited:

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
That's a lot of cubic inches must be a torque monster.

My 65 with normally aspirated small block full interior but with 28x9 slicks, granny shifted to 10.7@128MPH through the mufflers.
Sounds like we were making similar power, yours more torque. I'm guessing the 65 is a good 500-700lbs lighter maybe more? Rule of thumb every 100 lbs is a tenth.

Apparently they tested a 427 vette against the 427 AC Cobra. 0 to 100MPH to 0
The Cobra was stopped at the end when the vette was just getting to 100MPH. CS had the weight aspect figured out.
View attachment 31315

Holly jumpin',
N/A.... what compression were you running ? Fuel ? You recall the engine bob weight? Roller of flat tappet ?
In the pic above looks like you had the quick release exhaust cut out kit? Did you see the tenths drop further?
10.7 @ 128 through the mufflers is impressive!!!
Ok, nuff with my questions, must be more to this story haha.
 

slow-poke

Ultra Member
Holly jumpin',
N/A.... what compression were you running ? Fuel ? You recall the engine bob weight? Roller of flat tappet ?
In the pic above looks like you had the quick release exhaust cut out kit? Did you see the tenths drop further?
10.7 @ 128 through the mufflers is impressive!!!
Ok, nuff with my questions, must be more to this story haha.
70 Windsor block. Nothing exotic, zero balance crankshaft (4" stroke), Solid roller. just well matched components for a hot street car. Compression about 10.5:1, for fuel ran great with Shell V-power on the street, used 100 octane oxygenated for the track, It would have been faster with a C4 or a slipper clutch but I'm a stick guy and it was a street car so I just did my best with the regular style clutch. Tail pipes were a serious power killer ran them on the street, and only once at the track and never again. With the full tail pipes it did low 11's.
 
Last edited:

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
I’ve done some disreputable things while drinking Wild Turkey, flying wasn’t a successful one.
Oh I bet...
Let me tell ya,
I need to use this stuff every day now it seems....
I actually know because it just happened again tonight.
The wife cooked up a roast chicken ya know, with the smashed taters n the cheese over the white stuff... cauliflower I think it was now yep.

Anyway the first thing I wanted after supper was a wild turkey chaser...

Now this has been happening for some time.
I wonder what the supermarket food is going to taste like in a few months from now.
I can't find any better than 101 proof here for chasers.
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
70 Windsor block. Nothing exotic, zero balance crankshaft (4" stroke), Solid roller. just well matched components for a hot street car. Compression about 10.5:1, for fuel ran great with Shell V-power on the street, used 100 octane oxygenated for the track, It would have been faster with a C4 or a slipper clutch but I'm a stick guy and it was a street car so I just did my best with the regular style clutch. Tail pipes were a serious power killer ran them on the street, and only once at the track and never again. With the full tail pipes it did low 11's.

@ 10:5:1 is was experiencing too much detonation running Sunoco 94 with 104+ booster.
The aftermarket stuff for Olds at the time was pretty much useless, the Holly Dominator needed port matching and the like. The Edelbrock heads at the time also needed machine work and porting to get them to flow.
I ended up throwing a DUI dist, MSD box, switched to VP fuels and never looked back at the time.
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
The build back to 9:7:1 was less painful. Threw the 8.5 10 bolt back in with an Eaton posi, 3:42 gear, Th 400 with a trans-go, 2800 coon stall, short headers with 2 1/2" coming off the collectors into 2 1/4 pipes. Much better street manners these days.
@ 60mph, I'm hitting 3200 on the street tack. No ear plugs required now.
 

Attachments

  • sleeper mode.jpg
    sleeper mode.jpg
    47.4 KB · Views: 1

slow-poke

Ultra Member
@ 10:5:1 is was experiencing too much detonation running Sunoco 94 with 104+ booster.
The aftermarket stuff for Olds at the time was pretty much useless, the Holly Dominator needed port matching and the like. The Edelbrock heads at the time also needed machine work and porting to get them to flow.
I ended up throwing a DUI dist, MSD box, switched to VP fuels and never looked back at the time.
Not a fan of Sunoco 94 or ethanol, I think a lot of people think higher octane = more energy, while technically the opposite is true. Higher octane = slower burn = less power
I will also never run a dual plane manifold or hydraulic cam in anything performance oriented again, I just don't like low RPM engines. Just when things are getting fun you need to shift.

Cam specifications go a long way to preventing detonation with the crappy street fuel available today. I had 12:1 in one iteration of my 289 it was fine with 100 octane with a big overlap cam. Later I swapped in a milder cam to tame it down a bit for the street, the reduced overlap did not allow enough pressure to be bled off and it would ping like crazy. I even tried having 100 octane Av gas delivered by the drum to my house not realizing Av gas is good for planes and not so good for street cars. Combustion chamber style also makes a big difference.

I built a lot of engines over the years, most of them lacking in one way or another. I liked one 351Cleveland that was just a warmed over stock 1970-4V engine (factory 11:1) With just a few add-ons; headers, healthy solid cam, intake, and 750 Holley must have been making at least 450HP, with N50 Racemasters it worked well for an almost stock setup. I'm actually pretty happy with my latest Windsor style small block it makes >550HP and has really great street manners. A part of me would still like to build a strip only Cleveland. Those canted valve heads can make big N/A power, the serious guys are making 850HP-1000HP@8500 RPM

My buddy has a really quick 67 RT street car. We are lucky we didn't kill ourselves in that thing. It was gifted to him when he turned 16, with 13,000 miles on it. His dad and uncle purchased it new and immediately swapped in various engines, when they gave it to him they were worried it had too much power so they put a mild cam in it to slow it down. This was back in the street racing days. One late night we stopped at McDonalds to get a bite and we see this really cool 67? Dart with dual carb tunnel ram, slicks etc. in the parking lot. Next thing the guys with the Dart come over and challenge us to a street race for cash. We say okay. The suspension on the RT was tweaked and worked surprisingly well with the Mickey Thompsons as long as you launched it just right, if you did not get them warm before hand or launch just right they would just go up in smoke. I sat in the back passenger side to help a bit. When the light turned green I watched the dart lift the front wheels pretty good, but we lifted even higher and just drove past them. We beat a couple of blown Chevy's with that R/T. The R/T was quick but there was a faster street car in town Fletchers 69 Dart, originally with a blown 440 and later with a stroked and blown hemi, it was at the top of the pyramid. It was purple at the time. https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachments/69-swinger-1978-jpg.1714710001/
 
Last edited:

slow-poke

Ultra Member
Update, I'm a little closer. I had to tweak a few things to get it to come together:

i) The bolt in the arbor was a bit too big to fit through the hole in face mill holder, I contemplated making a threaded insert to go between the somewhat oddball 1/2-12 thread of the arbor and M10? that would normally hold the two together. Instead I opened up the hole in the face mill holder to 1/2" and then turned down the OS diameter of the 1/2-12 bolt.

ii) Turned the stub down from 1" to 22mm

iii) The stub was also about 1/8" too long so chopped an 1/8" off the end.

Now it fits together. Not sure what is a suitable torque for the 1/2-12 bolt?

I'm just waiting for the inserts to shown up and I can do a test pass.
IMG_0274.JPG IMG_0275.JPG
 

slow-poke

Ultra Member
I received first set of inserts last week and I finally found some time to try out the new facemill. Test pass was on aluminum with SEHT insert and from what I have read SEHT are better suited for steel. Surface finish is not so great on aluminum, will be interesting to test again with SEKT.

First observation is how effortlessly this takes 0.02" off in a pass, observing the current on my VFD it was only using about 1/2HP and much much less bang bang bang compared to the dull 3" facemill I have.

Second observation is that even though the feed was constant, the cut is segmented; tick-tick-tick, pause tick-tick-tick and you can see this in the finish.

I have some experimenting to do.

Thanks Susquatch.

_fpass.jpg
 

thestelster

Ultra Member
Premium Member
I received first set of inserts last week and I finally found some time to try out the new facemill. Test pass was on aluminum with SEHT insert and from what I have read SEHT are better suited for steel. Surface finish is not so great on aluminum, will be interesting to test again with SEKT.

First observation is how effortlessly this takes 0.02" off in a pass, observing the current on my VFD it was only using about 1/2HP and much much less bang bang bang compared to the dull 3" facemill I have.

Second observation is that even though the feed was constant, the cut is segmented; tick-tick-tick, pause tick-tick-tick and you can see this in the finish.

I have some experimenting to do.

Thanks Susquatch.

View attachment 32787
You're getting a lot of chatter because you have that part sticking out way too far past the vice. Try it again within the vice jaws, and you'll get a much better finish.
 

little ol' e

Jus' a hobby guy
I think those inserts are more for finishing, not really designed for interrupted cuts either IMO.
However, they can be made to work with light cuts.

What RPM were you using @.02 DOC?
I'm thinking in around the 350-400 range would work @.02 DOC with those inserts through interruptions such as your part. Leave .01 for finishing with a shot oil/mineral spirits mix for a nice surface finish.

If the part needs to sit that far out of the vice, then I would use jackers/1-2-3 blocks or similar under the hangover to keep everything stable.

I would even go as far as, pulling the vice off and making up some t-slot blocks/pins with flats etc.. to push the part up square for clamping it down on the table if need be.
Chatter will do damage to your spindle bearings over time, not to mention other things...
 
Last edited:

Stellrammer

Well-Known Member
Those are ground inserts for aluminum, a very fine grain of carbide with low binder content, not really for steel. The H is by memory a ground tolerance designation, k is as pressed. K tolerance, as pressed chipbreaker, would utilize a coarser grain structure and higher binder(cobalt) content to be used in steel. As pressed will have protected edges for strength, vs the quite sharp but weak edges on the “H” .
An aside, I made up a few blocks of steel ,machined at the exact height of the vise floor, to assist in support of items protruding beyond the vise, rather than use jacks.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
An aside, I made up a few blocks of steel ,machined at the exact height of the vise floor, to assist in support of items protruding beyond the vise, rather than use jacks.

Ooooo....... Now there is an idea I love!

One could make a pair of those with slots for a T-nut and perhaps even a clamp arrangement up top to hold a shallow part. I've always used machine jacks but I love the idea of something exactly the same as the floor of my vise.....

In most cases, parallels could extend out over the block. But I could also see myself dreaming about extra long parallels!
 

Stellrammer

Well-Known Member
Ooooo....... Now there is an idea I love!

One could make a pair of those with slots for a T-nut and perhaps even a clamp arrangement up top to hold a shallow part. I've always used machine jacks but I love the idea of something exactly the same as the floor of my vise.....

In most cases, parallels could extend out over the block. But I could also see myself dreaming about extra long parallels!
I’ve been too lazy to to do that, but I should, good to have some flat bottom ones that are free to roam about for those awkward shapes.
 

slow-poke

Ultra Member
I think those inserts are more for finishing, not really designed for interrupted cuts either IMO.
However, they can be made to work with light cuts.

What RPM were you using @.02 DOC?
I'm thinking in around the 350-400 range would work @.02 DOC with those inserts through interruptions such as your part. Leave .01 for finishing with a shot oil/mineral spirits mix for a nice surface finish.

If the part needs to sit that far out of the vice, then I would use jackers/1-2-3 blocks or similar under the hangover to keep everything stable.

I would even go as far as, pulling the vice off and making up some t-slot blocks/pins with flats etc.. to push the part up square for clamping it down on the table if need be.
Chatter will do damage to your spindle bearings over time, not to mention other things...
One could get the distinct impression you guys know a thing or two about this sort of thing ;-)

I just tried 400RPM, clamped on RHS, mirror like finish, I can actually see my reflection on the surface.

What feed rate should I be using, I went really slow (1 IPM)
Look at the difference....
Thank you
spass.jpg spass2.jpg
 
Top