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Electric heater question

Dabbler said:
Running plywood on the floor - not fastened down, seemed to help near the perimeter where possible. It seemed to make it easier to heat the air in the garage, and I had some junk plywood to try anyway.

I'm thinking of adding some in front of my lathe where I stand, to reduce the 'cold foot' problem in the winter. any barrier with less conduction has a tiny impact. there is no perfect solution, but this might help in certain areas.
Click to expand...
I like floating floors in basements, just a simple sheet of 1/2" closed cell foam and 1/2 plywood make for a warm floor, and has cushioning too. For a defined space just run a 2" wide 1/2 thick stringer around the underside of the plywood edge, it will keep the foam from shifting out of place, and prevent edge breakdown if you tread near the edge of the plywood often.
 
Dabbler said:
Running plywood on the floor - not fastened down, seemed to help near the perimeter where possible. It seemed to make it easier to heat the air in the garage, and I had some junk plywood to try anyway.

I'm thinking of adding some in front of my lathe where I stand, to reduce the 'cold foot' problem in the winter. any barrier with less conduction has a tiny impact. there is no perfect solution, but this might help in certain areas.
Click to expand...

I just use these mats you buy to relive pain of standing in the same place. I have like 10 of them now.

Also my floor is insulated with about 2in of Styrofoam.

I would look into gas furnace to lower costs ... but installation is very expensive.

Diesel heaters don't need to run on diesel alone - people started them on diesel and then run on waste oil - through this may be more trouble then its worth.

Wood is a good solution - for garage you don't even need to buy new stuff - check with insurance is it really going to affect your rates. Wood can be gotten for free or next to free. BUT it does require work.
 
My advise, for what it is worth, is that if you have been with your current insurer for more than say 3 years, and don't plan on changing your coverage soon, insurance should not really be a consideration.

insurers cannot compel you to disclose _every_ change to the insured property. Things change over time and 3 years is a standard rule. The longer the better though. Even if you think it will be your new primary source, they can't decide that arbitrarily unless there is no other source - how can they tell which one you commonly use and which is a supplement? If you ever have a claim, there may be a bit of a fight, but there is almost always some kind of fight during insurance claims anyways because insurance adjusters are given bonuses based on how much money they can avoid paying.

Probably the most important point is that even a small thing can make a big different to the heat dissipation. Stack a chord of wood next to the outside wall, lean a sheet of plywood against the siding, keep the garbage cans there etc.
 
mbond said:
My advise, for what it is worth, is that if you have been with your current insurer for more than say 3 years, and don't plan on changing your coverage soon, insurance should not really be a consideration.

insurers cannot compel you to disclose _every_ change to the insured property. Things change over time and 3 years is a standard rule. The longer the better though. Even if you think it will be your new primary source, they can't decide that arbitrarily unless there is no other source - how can they tell which one you commonly use and which is a supplement? If you ever have a claim, there may be a bit of a fight, but there is almost always some kind of fight during insurance claims anyways because insurance adjusters are given bonuses based on how much money they can avoid paying.

Probably the most important point is that even a small thing can make a big different to the heat dissipation. Stack a chord of wood next to the outside wall, lean a sheet of plywood against the siding, keep the garbage cans there etc.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't ever chance it. When I'm standing next to my burnt down house is not the time I want to find out that I am not covered because I didn't disclose installing a wood stove. All because I wanted to try to save a few bucks trying to game the system. After all like you said there is almost always some kind of fight no need to go making that fight bigger with something that I am knowingly at fault for not disclosing. But that's just me some people are more willing to take chances with these types of things.
 
Of course everyone should make decisions about their personal circumstances in a way that makes sense to themselves - and not rely on internet chat advise as if it was and eleventh commandment

But what I am trying to say is that in the realm of insurance, there is the common carrier precept. If you hire a taxi, but get into an accident because he hadn't replaced his break pads, that's not your problem. You went to the taxi stand and happened to get that one

And in that context, life happens and things change. And the typical threshold is about 3 years
 
I've stayed out of this discussion till now. But I do have some meaningful things to add.

#1. Insurance companies are in business to make money. They have to make more on premiums than payouts. Small claims usually get paid without much fuss. Make a big claim and expect a big fight. It's happened to me 4x. Once it was tornado damage, twice it was cars that were worth more than they were willing to pay, the 4th was a boat that got destroyed on the rocks in a big wind storm. Each required a major fight. Had to go to small claims for the boat. Fine print of policy said it was only insured in a garage or boat house. Damage on the lake in a storm was not covered. WTF? That's like a car that's only insured in the garage but not on the road. But they never gave me a copy of the detailed policy and the judge agreed and made them pay. The average guy would NEVER fight like I did. Bottom line, expect a big fight with a big claim and take em to the mat!

#2 - Insurance scams are the norm. Everyone wants a new roof after a hail storm - even the ones that already needed a new roof! Got a dent in the fender backing up to a building, blame it on some other driver in a parking lot. Sump pump failed? Yup, need a an entire basement renovation and all new furniture. I hate that crap. But it's no wonder the insurance is skeptical and it's no wonder my premiums are so high.

#3 - Don't take safety standards and municipal by-laws for granted. If you have a big loss, they WILL go to extremes to disallow the claim. A big claim will precipitate a big inspection. One machine that doesn't meet code and they have you by the short curlies. Everyone can do what they need to do, but it's best to remember that you don't need insurance for small claims. But you really need insurance for big claims. See big fight above.

#4. Your insurance agent is NOT YOUR INSURANCE. Your agent sells policies, they don't settle claims. If you have a big claim, your agent will be on vaca in Bermuda. Don't trust your agent to tell you your stuff is covered. Ask for the fine print and READ IT. When it comes time to settle your big claim, you will be glad you know what your policy actually says.
 
Did anyone say heat pump? Now before we get our knickers in a knot there is a newer generation using newer refrigerants which have improved performance in cold weather. I'm not sure they are prairie winter ready yet. I've been reading and this article is interesting.

learnmetrics.com

Best Heat Pumps For Cold Climates In 2024 (Down To -22°F)

About 10 years ago, it was unheard of to use a heat pump in cold climates. Today, the best heat pumps for cold weather can operate at below-freezing temperatures. We are going to look into these low-temperature heat pumps and check which are the best mini split heat pumps for cold climates on...
learnmetrics.com learnmetrics.com

the 2 problems I see is

1. the heat pump at super cold temperatures is as efficient as an electric heater but has lower capacity.

The tables in the below link show this but it needs deciphering. I believe the 36KBTU listed heat pump at -30C consumes 3000W and puts out about 3000W in heat. Is 3000W enough to heat the space? As the temperature outside goes up the heat pump has a lot more capacity. At 0C the pump consumes 3300W and puts out 6600W in heat.

2. the cost of of this big heat pump might be $4K sans installation. A heater is of course far less. but you also get AC.
 
Janger said:
Did anyone say heat pump? Now before we get our knickers in a knot there is a newer generation using newer refrigerants which have improved performance in cold weather. I'm not sure they are prairie winter ready yet. I've been reading and this article is interesting.

learnmetrics.com

Best Heat Pumps For Cold Climates In 2024 (Down To -22°F)

About 10 years ago, it was unheard of to use a heat pump in cold climates. Today, the best heat pumps for cold weather can operate at below-freezing temperatures. We are going to look into these low-temperature heat pumps and check which are the best mini split heat pumps for cold climates on...
learnmetrics.com learnmetrics.com

the 2 problems I see is

1. the heat pump at super cold temperatures is as efficient as an electric heater but has lower capacity.

The tables in the below link show this but it needs deciphering. I believe the 36KBTU listed heat pump at -30C consumes 3000W and puts out about 3000W in heat. Is 3000W enough to heat the space? As the temperature outside goes up the heat pump has a lot more capacity. At 0C the pump consumes 3300W and puts out 6600W in heat.

2. the cost of of this big heat pump might be $4K sans installation. A heater is of course far less. but you also get AC.
Click to expand...
That's one of the up sides of a small shop I have one of those portable standing ac units that has the big hose that runs to a window. Doesn't take up much space and is just powerful enough to cool the shop down when it's really hot out. Though to be honest the shop stays pretty cool for the majority of the summer I really only run the ac for maybe 2 weeks in a year.
 
Janger said:
Did anyone say heat pump? Now before we get our knickers in a knot there is a newer generation using newer refrigerants which have improved performance in cold weather. I'm not sure they are prairie winter ready yet. I've been reading and this article is interesting.

learnmetrics.com

Best Heat Pumps For Cold Climates In 2024 (Down To -22°F)

About 10 years ago, it was unheard of to use a heat pump in cold climates. Today, the best heat pumps for cold weather can operate at below-freezing temperatures. We are going to look into these low-temperature heat pumps and check which are the best mini split heat pumps for cold climates on...
learnmetrics.com learnmetrics.com

the 2 problems I see is

1. the heat pump at super cold temperatures is as efficient as an electric heater but has lower capacity.

The tables in the below link show this but it needs deciphering. I believe the 36KBTU listed heat pump at -30C consumes 3000W and puts out about 3000W in heat. Is 3000W enough to heat the space? As the temperature outside goes up the heat pump has a lot more capacity. At 0C the pump consumes 3300W and puts out 6600W in heat.

2. the cost of of this big heat pump might be $4K sans installation. A heater is of course far less. but you also get AC.
Click to expand...
FYI, heat pump controls will transition to alternative fuels as the temps plunge and output lowers,

The usual duel fuel set up is cold climate heat pump/nat gas back up. It is currently the most cost effective combo in Canada proven by the NRC of Canada.

The rest is just uninformed opinion, in my opinion.
 
Susquatch said:
I've stayed out of this discussion till now. But I do have some meaningful things to add.

#1. Insurance companies are in business to make money. They have to make more on premiums than payouts. Small claims usually get paid without much fuss. Make a big claim and expect a big fight. It's happened to me 4x. Once it was tornado damage, twice it was cars that were worth more than they were willing to pay, the 4th was a boat that got destroyed on the rocks in a big wind storm. Each required a major fight. Had to go to small claims for the boat. Fine print of policy said it was only insured in a garage or boat house. Damage on the lake in a storm was not covered. WTF? That's like a car that's only insured in the garage but not on the road. But they never gave me a copy of the detailed policy and the judge agreed and made them pay. The average guy would NEVER fight like I did. Bottom line, expect a big fight with a big claim and take em to the mat!

#2 - Insurance scams are the norm. Everyone wants a new roof after a hail storm - even the ones that already needed a new roof! Got a dent in the fender backing up to a building, blame it on some other driver in a parking lot. Sump pump failed? Yup, need a an entire basement renovation and all new furniture. I hate that crap. But it's no wonder the insurance is skeptical and it's no wonder my premiums are so high.

#3 - Don't take safety standards and municipal by-laws for granted. If you have a big loss, they WILL go to extremes to disallow the claim. A big claim will precipitate a big inspection. One machine that doesn't meet code and they have you by the short curlies. Everyone can do what they need to do, but it's best to remember that you don't need insurance for small claims. But you really need insurance for big claims. See big fight above.

#4. Your insurance agent is NOT YOUR INSURANCE. Your agent sells policies, they don't settle claims. If you have a big claim, your agent will be on vaca in Bermuda. Don't trust your agent to tell you your stuff is covered. Ask for the fine print and READ IT. When it comes time to settle your big claim, you will be glad you know what your policy actually says.
Click to expand...
It is important to remember that insurance adjusters are paid more if they manage to reduce or repudiate your claim. They make bonuses based on how much money they disallow.
 
TorontoBuilder said:
FYI, heat pump controls will transition to alternative fuels as the temps plunge and output lowers,

The usual duel fuel set up is cold climate heat pump/nat gas back up. It is currently the most cost effective combo in Canada proven by the NRC of Canada.

The rest is just uninformed opinion, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
A friend installed a heat pump here in Calgary a couple years back. It was $10 or $12K. It cuts off at -5C or -10C and then his old furnace picks up the slack. So he has AC in the summer, heat pump heat for a couple months fall and spring, and the main heating load is provided by his nat gas furnace. I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense to me. I think it's still too early for this tech to be practical here in cold Alberta. He's going to have to buy a new furnace at some point. Another $10K?
 
Dabbler said:
Running plywood on the floor - not fastened down, seemed to help near the perimeter where possible. It seemed to make it easier to heat the air in the garage, and I had some junk plywood to try anyway.

I'm thinking of adding some in front of my lathe where I stand, to reduce the 'cold foot' problem in the winter. any barrier with less conduction has a tiny impact. there is no perfect solution, but this might help in certain areas.
Click to expand...
I had some leftover insulated osb panels for under floating floors, used to use some as floor ‘mats’ in the last house. Worked great, feet stayed warmer, gave a little cushion too. These were the 2’x2’ panels with a half inch or so of styrofoam on the bottom.

They ended up outside for a while when we moved, I ended up tossing them due to the osb messing up due to the exposure. I kinda miss them now though.
 
Greywynd said:
I had some leftover insulated osb panels for under floating floors, used to use some as floor ‘mats’ in the last house. Worked great, feet stayed warmer, gave a little cushion too. These were the 2’x2’ panels with a half inch or so of styrofoam on the bottom.

They ended up outside for a while when we moved, I ended up tossing them due to the osb messing up due to the exposure. I kinda miss them now though.
Click to expand...
I have 4 of the thick rubber mats from costco and some carpet samples in the shop as well as a couple anti fatigue mats. All placed in the in front of machines and work bench. It was more for my back than anything but I suppose it helps to insulate as well.
 
historicalarms said:
I installed a wood stove in my living room 5 yrs ago (should have done it 20 yrs ago) and our house insurance didnt even wiggle.
Click to expand...
We pay a $600 insurance premium for the privilege of having a wood stove in the house. Kicker is, it's in a room on the main floor off to the side & only heats part of the house, despite our efforts to move the air throughout. Don't get me wrong, it's nice, but mostly what it does is turn the thermostat off & make the balance of the house cold.
 
JustaDB said:
Don't get me wrong, it's nice, but mostly what it does is turn the thermostat off & make the balance of the house cold.
Click to expand...

I think this is a common problem. Damn thermostats only know their own local temperature.

If you can move the thermostat, do it.

If you only use your stove for the times you want to sit by a fire, it really isn't an issue. Your house isn't gunna freeze in 4 hours.

On the other hand, if you use it for Heat backup when your furnace quits, you can all move into that room and hunker down till the furnace gets fixed. It's a great way to bond with the family. Just have to keep an eye on the water pipes! I found my fireplace kept the rest of the house just warm enough to prevent freezing. YMMV.
 
Susquatch said:
If you can move the thermostat, do it.
Click to expand...
Not an option.
Susquatch said:
If you only use your stove for the times you want to sit by a fire, it really isn't an issue. Your house isn't gunna freeze in 4 hours.
Click to expand...
Worried more about my lovely bride climbing into a freezing bed & my subsequent bodily harm.
Susquatch said:
On the other hand, if you use it for Heat backup when your furnace quits, you can all move into that room and hunker down till the furnace gets fixed. It's a great way to bond with the family. Just have to keep an eye on the water pipes! I found my fireplace kept the rest of the house just warm enough to prevent freezing. YMMV.
Click to expand...
We've done that in the past. Had a winter power outage probably 15 years ago that lasted overnite & into the morning. Hiked everybody into the room w/ sleeping bags & I was up every 3 hours or so feeding the wood burning stove. In the morning I boiled water on it & made oatmeal. Littlun's thought it was a great adventure. Pipes weren't anywhere near freezing up.

We do have two stairwells to the basement where the bedrooms are located. I have a ceiling fan over one of them, but it's not enough to move any real amount of air. On the extensive list of things to do is install another one over the second stairwell & reverse the flow in an effort to circulate air between the main & basement levels.
 
Janger said:
Did anyone say heat pump? Now before we get our knickers in a knot there is a newer generation using newer refrigerants which have improved performance in cold weather. I'm not sure they are prairie winter ready yet. I've been reading and this article is interesting.

learnmetrics.com

Best Heat Pumps For Cold Climates In 2024 (Down To -22°F)

About 10 years ago, it was unheard of to use a heat pump in cold climates. Today, the best heat pumps for cold weather can operate at below-freezing temperatures. We are going to look into these low-temperature heat pumps and check which are the best mini split heat pumps for cold climates on...
learnmetrics.com learnmetrics.com

the 2 problems I see is

1. the heat pump at super cold temperatures is as efficient as an electric heater but has lower capacity.

The tables in the below link show this but it needs deciphering. I believe the 36KBTU listed heat pump at -30C consumes 3000W and puts out about 3000W in heat. Is 3000W enough to heat the space? As the temperature outside goes up the heat pump has a lot more capacity. At 0C the pump consumes 3300W and puts out 6600W in heat.

2. the cost of of this big heat pump might be $4K sans installation. A heater is of course far less. but you also get AC.
Click to expand...

You forgot wear and tear on a heat pump / its repair are far more than a gas furnace or resistance furnace which is next to indestructible.

You can get new heat pump 1500w for under 2000 CAD and install it yourself. You can get 3500w for around 4000 CAD plus self install.

Main issue will be poor power output when its cold - like this month it was -15C to -20C at nigh for weeks....

The theoretical limit of the system is as per link provided about 17,000 BTU per 3kw - the lower the temp in the garage the better the efficiency. This is BETTER than the 10,000 BTU per 3kw you get with resistance heater....

Even at -30C they claim 12000 BTU from 3kwh.

But I would like a secondary source of this data - i.e. independent verification.

Given somewhat extreme working condition I expect life span of 10 years.... so self installed unit will cost $400 per year over resistance heater.... Which begs the question is the electrical savings worth it over winter?

I can clearly answer this with gas furnace in my garage - it is quite better financially than a heat pump for heating... but no cooling ;) I am exploring adding a $100 beaten up AC unit.
 
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