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Electric heater question

Megar arc 5040dd said:
The shop is fully insulated except for the floor and sadly there is no practical way to do that now.
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Once upon a time (1990s) the US Department of Energy funded researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley Labs to look for ways to retrofit air sealing on existing forced air systems. When air leaks from ducts before it gets to the space the heating or air conditioning is needed it results in occupant discomfort and requiring hvac systems to be run longer to affect the desired temperature.

A products was developed and named aeroseal, based on it being a polymer that is aerosolized and then blown into pressurized ducts where it building up on the edges of holes until the holes are plugged. Because they're a lab that does research only LBL licensed the technology for commercialization to a private company and it ended up in Carrier's portfolio for a while. The product never took off because the licensees could not figure out how to market the product and erred in targeting hvac contractors. Contractors were not going to sell a retrofit that proved they did shitty work the first time. In new construction there are cheaper and more reliable air sealing methods, but that is another story.

skip ahead a decade or two, and we come to a different need. New homes having to meet new air tightness levels and struggling dearly because there are so many hands involved in building homes, most of who dont give a damn if their work destroys an air barrier system.

So, a entrepreneurial type says lets try this product to new homes during construction... lets pressurize the home, and aerosolize this material into the space... and as the material passes thru cracks and crevices it sticks to the edges of holes and seals them.

Guess what, it worked.

To the extent that they're using the product on existing structures. There is no need to open walls, reinsulate or anything else. You just need a blower door and the aerosolizer, and the product of course.

So there is a practical way... but is it affordable and available in the region. As far as I know, in the west it is only in Calgary and Edmonton and I can't speak to the quality and skill of the operators
 
Hruul said:
I had something similar to this done on my ducts in my house. I believe it was called aeroseal if i recall correctly. Seemed to help with the heating.
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That is the exact same product, and the same parent company now controls both the aeroseal and aerobarrier product installation lines.

I wanted to licence this product from Carrier. They refused. I had all the industry contacts and the capacity to set up installer network in the late 1990s early 2000s but at the time the licensee lacked vision. It is a real shame because it remains a super niche product and got passed by in new ductwork construction.
 
FWIW.
I don't do much in the garage anymore because I have a basement shop now. But when I do and especially when it's cold. More heaters not only speed up the process but save a bit of electricity. With minimal heat, I'm leaking heat for a long time trying to get the temperature up. Since adding three of those construction style heaters I can fairly rapidly heat, get the job done and get the power off, so less leakage.
 
Well I solved my thermostat problem though I am not really sure exactly what the problem was. I was having an issue yesterday getting the heat to stay on for mot that a couple minutes even with the thermostat cranked all the way up. This was always an issue as I mentioned before but yesterday it seemed like it was way worse than it has ever been I just couldn't get it to run long enough top warm up the shop. So I did a bunch of reading online and looked up the manual for the heater and got very confused. I vaguely remember when I installed it that it had instructions for connecting an external thermostat and I was sure that was what I fallowed when I installed it. But the instruction I found for that exact model had no mention of an external thermostat and just showed a simple diagram of how the internal one is connected. That was when I realized that the way I had it was completely different. The instructions showed that the thermostat was only controlling one line in and not both. I had disconnected the internal thermostat and connected a 2 pole thermostat in between the breaker and the heater. I have no idea why I had it connected this way or where I got the idea from that it was supposed to be that way but it was 8 years ago so unlikely I will remember. I decided I was going to disconnect one line from the thermostat and see if that changed anything before running out to buy a new single pole thermostat. And it was at that moment I had a scare of a life time.

I removed the thermostat to find the wires in the box had melted right through the marrete as well as through the insulation in a couple spots! No wonder the thermostat was tripping like it was hot inside. This was the third thermostat to have gone bad but normally the contacts would fuse together causing the heater to run continuously. I went to home depot and picked up 20 feet of 10 awg armor cable, new surface mount box and most importantly a new single pole thermostat and since I was going to single pole I had the choice of 2 different brands unlike when I was using the double pull and had no choice but to replace it with the same crappy one because that's all that was available.

Fast forward a few more hours and all new everything was installed between the breaker and the heater. I can't believe how good it works now. For the first time in 8 years I feel like it's working how it should. I set it to a temperature and when I check the govee temp sensor that is in the center of the shop about 7 feet off the floor it reads within 1 degree of what the thermostat is set to. With the last 3 thermostats those numbers on the thermostat meant nothing the colder it was outside the higher you would have to turn it up to maintain a constant temp in the shop. In the past when I researched this I found that it was a common issue with them and so figured it was normal and there wasn't anything I could do about it. It was never a big enough problem to really worry about other than it was a bit of a guessing game at what to set it to at night during a cold spell. Set it to low and I risk the shop dropping below freezing, to high and I am wasting money. Now I set it to a temp on the thermostat and thats what it stays at in the shop. I am curious to see if this changes my power bill for the better.

I can't imagine that the problem was just because I was switching both hot wires instead of one. As for the melting wire I noticed the old thermostat cheaped out and used aluminum wires so its possible that they came loose and over heated. The last 3 thermostats, they we the exact same model as that was all that was available on short notice, they all would get warm to the touch when trying to heat the shop to a warm temp. It is possible it got really hot yesterday as I was getting annoyed with it not staying on so I kept taking the cover off and flicking the metal strip so it would turn back on. Maybe I pushed it to much but it should be able to run for more than a couple minutes at a time without melting. The new once stays as cool as the wall it is mounted to.

Just glad it is all working properly and is wired according to the manufactures diagram. And I am most glad that I decided to pull the thermostat and found the bare wires before my shop and house burned down.
 
Megar arc 5040dd said:
Just glad it is all working properly and is wired according to the manufactures diagram. And I am most glad that I decided to pull the thermostat and found the bare wires before my shop and house burned down.
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Sounds like lots of reasons to celebrate. I'm glad it all worked out for you.

Prolly still worth doing some energy saving improvements though. Especially sealing air leaks.
 
Susquatch said:
Sounds like lots of reasons to celebrate. I'm glad it all worked out for you.

Prolly still worth doing some energy saving improvements though. Especially sealing air leaks.
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I hung moving blankets covering the french doors they are solid wood and offer no insulation from the cold. That has help cut down the cold drafty feeling by the door as well it keeps more heat in when people go in and out of the door kind of like the hanging plastic strips in a warehouse . I was surprised the heat was off for 6 hours yesterday while it was in the -20's and the temp in the shop only dropped about 4 or 5 degrees in that time. With the exception of the floor I sealed the place up pretty tight when we built the shop.
 
Whereabouts in SK are you located? I only had electric heat at my acreage in south eastern Sk. I have two shops joined with a man door, both insulated. The metal shop is 28x40 W/10’ ceilings and had a single 10k heater. The wood shop is 24x22 and has a 5k heater.

I quickly switched to wood pellet stoves to heat because the cost was crazy on electric. The stoves require some daily maintenance but heat the space up faster than the electric heaters.

My next step once I tire of the pellet process will be propane.

I went on a limb last year and imported a hammer mill and wood pellet mill so I can make my own pellets. I have so much deadfall on the property that I can probably make pellets for 20 years or more. Cost to make them is about 85% less than buying them (.if I don’t include my time)
 
Natural gas isn’t a option where you are at? The pellet mill sounds cool. Even a wood stove….. basically free to get wood if you keep an eye out….. plenty of low cost btu’s and can get it nice and comfortable when you are working.

Circulating the air from near the roof to down by the ground does really help too. Even a normal ceiling fan will make a noticeable difference. Heat stratification is a real thing for sure. Most shops have circulating fans on the ceiling for that purpose.
 
Natural gas is an option…… starting at between 25K to 40K to bring it 3/4 mile to my property……

We did all the math and you basically don’t overcome the investment (25-40K) cost before it’s time to sell and move to a home.

Plus, you need the appliance (furnace or stove) and there is no hvac in the house so air distribution is an issue. The appliance was the same for pellet vs wood vs gas vs propane so it’s a wash.

Solar is the same deal, Investment cost is >75K day one.

Wood pellets was the lowest cost/btu option. Propane is next, because you still have the same challenges of natural gas (hvac/appliances) but without the 25k hit. You get a small rental charge per year.
 
kevin.decelles said:
Whereabouts in SK are you located? I only had electric heat at my acreage in south eastern Sk. I have two shops joined with a man door, both insulated. The metal shop is 28x40 W/10’ ceilings and had a single 10k heater. The wood shop is 24x22 and has a 5k heater.

I quickly switched to wood pellet stoves to heat because the cost was crazy on electric. The stoves require some daily maintenance but heat the space up faster than the electric heaters.

My next step once I tire of the pellet process will be propane.

I went on a limb last year and imported a hammer mill and wood pellet mill so I can make my own pellets. I have so much deadfall on the property that I can probably make pellets for 20 years or more. Cost to make them is about 85% less than buying them (.if I don’t include my time)
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Did you take a massive hit on insurance when you switched to the pellet stoves? Our house insurance in Regina jumped when we put a wood stove in our living room years ago. First you are no longer eligible for the 50% no claims discount and then they doubled the rate.
I've always been curious about pellet stoves. We have a pellet smoker and I can go through a 40lb bag of pellets and only get a cup of ash.
 
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I installed a wood stove in my living room 5 yrs ago (should have done it 20 yrs ago) and our house insurance didnt even wiggle. i provided the insurance company a copy of the WETT cert. from the prov inspection branch and a web link to the requirements of the branch to be approved and never heard a peep from them again.
 
historicalarms said:
I installed a wood stove in my living room 5 yrs ago (should have done it 20 yrs ago) and our house insurance didnt even wiggle. i provided the insurance company a copy of the WETT cert. from the prov inspection branch and a web link to the requirements of the branch to be approved and never heard a peep from them again.
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Mine was done 30 years ago. I would hope things have improved since then.
 
I took a 25% hit on the first stove in the house hold, and all additional stoves are no charge. I was asked for the wett inspection but instead sent copies of the stove install/requirements and photos of all the stove showing the setbacks with a tape measure . This was through SGI. Two other insurers declined to insure once the stoves were brought up .

Ash management is pretty impressive with store bought pellets but a daily chore with home made. I chip/hammer/pellet dead wood and some of it has bark and sap etc.

I like pellets over wood in that the stoves these days have auto start, schedules, timers etc. I can control 2 of the stoves from my phone anywhere and I get notifications on start up and shutdown. And they can hold up to 3 days of pellets in the hoppers. The missus can run it easily and I don’t need to be there

The stove my wife chose (based on looks) for the living room did t have wifi so we’ve built our own controller board which I’m currently testing. Used an esp32 board, thermocouple/thermometer and even variable speed fan control. The sweet part is we integrated it into home assistant so now we can automate/schedule at will
 
The key to insurance is that you list electric heat as your primary source….. which it is I guess

I leave my electric shop heaters set at 10C. They sometimes kick in over night if my scheduled times let it cool too much.
 
I would love to have a wood stove in my shop but there are just to many problems to overcome for me. First is I don't have the space and even if I did there are a lot of trees that go over top of my shop so I would be concerned with the chimney being to close. Also I often times am only in the shop for short amounts of time so not worth it to light a fire. Plus my insurance would go up. Go figure I have a wood fire place in my house and insurance says that's ok it doesn't affect my rates but if I have a wood stove then it does. I would have though that with a would stove being fully contained it would be safer than a fire place.
 
Megar arc 5040dd said:
I would love to have a wood stove in my shop but there are just to many problems to overcome for me. First is I don't have the space and even if I did there are a lot of trees that go over top of my shop so I would be concerned with the chimney being to close. Also I often times am only in the shop for short amounts of time so not worth it to light a fire. Plus my insurance would go up. Go figure I have a wood fire place in my house and insurance says that's ok it doesn't affect my rates but if I have a wood stove then it does. I would have though that with a would stove being fully contained it would be safer than a fire place.
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I was told the issue was that a fireplace is expected to have occasional use and a stove expected to be a more constant use.
More use equals more inherent risk to the insurer.
 
Megar arc 5040dd said:
The shop is fully insulated except for the floor and sadly there is no practical way to do that now.
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Running plywood on the floor - not fastened down, seemed to help near the perimeter where possible. It seemed to make it easier to heat the air in the garage, and I had some junk plywood to try anyway.

I'm thinking of adding some in front of my lathe where I stand, to reduce the 'cold foot' problem in the winter. any barrier with less conduction has a tiny impact. there is no perfect solution, but this might help in certain areas.
 
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