Drill chuck recommendation

[historicalarms]

Rotating the chuck will give you a run-out reading for the chuck & jaws but not the drill press spindle To measure spindle alone set dial plunger somewhere between chuck ring & drill press body on the spindle and just push & pull back and forth, the dial reading is the drill quill runout without chuck exaggeration.

 

[LenVW]

When I was checking the TIR of my mini-mill I anchored my dial indicator to the table and used my 1/2” Drill Chuck to clamp onto a 3/8” Dowel Pin.

As I stated previously, the TIR for a full rotation was .0015”.

 

[Susquatch]

Rotating the chuck will give you a run-out reading for the chuck & jaws but not the drill press spindle To measure spindle alone set dial plunger somewhere between chuck ring & drill press body on the spindle and just push & pull back and forth, the dial reading is the drill quill runout without chuck exaggeration.

Isn't that measuring the quill slop/play not runout?

 

[LenVW]

I am more concerned with the produced effect (ie. drilled or milled diameter).
Who cares if the spindle has a wobble ?
If your chuck has a small TIR, their is no problem.
It will become an issue if you are running high RPMs and it may induce vibration.

Every mill/drill will have some degree of Runout.

 

[historicalarms]

Isn't that measuring the quill slop/play not runout?

They are the same thing in my mind. If a quill has bearing preload slop or barrel clearance in the head, then, no mater how accurate your chuck is it will still have the run-out built into the loose quill.

Len is right , every quill has a built in run-out, its simply the nature of the beast that is required to facilitate the quil range of movement without much effort but it still is a separate measurable tolerance compared to a jaw chuck .
When you are spudding a drill bit into a sub dia pilot hole or center punch divot it is very easy to see a miss alignment of 10 thou or so but very difficult to see less than a 2 thou missed alignment ...but no matter how hard or unsee-able it is, the drill miss alignment that will cause wobble & oblong holes is still there ( an oblong chamber with a miss-aligned reamer is a good example only in a bigger sense).
Basically it doesnt matter how we measure, one or both separately they both effect performance of the tool.

 

[PeterT]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the discussion but a mill spindle should have runout in the tenths, not thousandths. That's in part because of much better quality, typically AC bearings, preloading, better quality low tolerance fits & finishing... all that good stuff. Now if its worn or just lower on the quality scale, different story. A decent drill press might also have AC but (guessing) hobby class might be thrust bearings or preloaded plain bearings, but still hopefully still be in the sub-thou TIR range. My RF-45 mill drill was~ 0.0003" if I recall (measured on the R8 seat). My 935 mill is ~ 0.0001". My Taiwan bench drill press is amazingly good, about 0.0002-0.0003".

Runout could be additive or subtractive depending on the accessory orientation. For example a 0.0020" runout chuck on a 0.0005" runout spindle could be 0.0025" or 0.0015" depending on how they are engaged. Even this is very simplified because other factors can further enter the picture. The chuck jaws might grip differently on different diameter stock. A 2$ drill may have low runout shank but have poor asymmetrical tip grinding & wander for that reason. Also consider scale: 0.002" runout on a 0.5" drill is 0.4% of diameter. But on a 1/32" drill represents 6.4%. So again, depends on what you're doing.

 

[Susquatch]

They are the same thing in my mind. If a quill has bearing preload slop or barrel clearance in the head, then, no mater how accurate your chuck is it will still have the run-out built into the loose quill.

Len is right , every quill has a built in run-out, its simply the nature of the beast that is required to facilitate the quil range of movement without much effort but it still is a separate measurable tolerance compared to a jaw chuck .
When you are spudding a drill bit into a sub dia pilot hole or center punch divot it is very easy to see a miss alignment of 10 thou or so but very difficult to see less than a 2 thou missed alignment ...but no matter how hard or unsee-able it is, the drill miss alignment that will cause wobble & oblong holes is still there ( an oblong chamber with a miss-aligned reamer is a good example only in a bigger sense).
Basically it doesnt matter how we measure, one or both separately they both effect performance of the tool.

As long as I understand what you mean it's all ok.

What you describe is all important and I agree with it.

It's just that I separate each component in my mind and then combine them for their resulting impact on the job. Just a different approach to the same problems. No biggie.

Count on me to forget the way you consider it all though. In my old age I'll forget who it was that thought that way......

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the discussion but a mill spindle should have runout in the tenths, not thousandths. That's in part because of much better quality, typically AC bearings, preloading, better quality low tolerance fits & finishing... all that good stuff. Now if its worn or just lower on the quality scale, different story. A decent drill press might also have AC but (guessing) hobby class might be thrust bearings or preloaded plain bearings, but still hopefully still be in the sub-thou TIR range. My RF-45 mill drill was~ 0.0003" if I recall (measured on the R8 seat). My 935 mill is ~ 0.0001". My Taiwan bench drill press is amazingly good, about 0.0002-0.0003".

Yup.

I'll have to measure a few of my spindles. I really can't tell you how good or bad they are.

I'm especially interested in my drill press. I don't think I'm gunna like what I find. It has seen better days.

 

[Former Member]

Update on the Keyless Accusize chuck, as I know have done about 2400 holes ranging from 3/16 up to 1/2". Cobalt and carbide drills.

I am impressed, no slippage, no dropping the bit.

This is definitely a way better solution than a keyed chuck.

 

[Former Member]

Update on my Accusize keyless chuck after drilling an excess of 4000 holes (yes 3000 drilled in about a week in 900lbs of aluminium) love it. Holds way tighter with less slippage and drill shank damage compared to any keyed drill chuck (brand name or if shore that I've ever had or still have). As I have time (and spare change) all my chucks will be going this way on the rest of the machines.

 

[Tom Kitta]

After some incidents with self tightening chucks I decided never to buy another one and do exactly opposite to what you are doing i.e. only keyed chucks for me. I probably leave one just as a reminder why they are terrible.

 

[historicalarms]

Update on my Accusize keyless chuck after drilling an excess of 4000 holes (yes 3000 drilled in about a week in 900lbs of aluminium) love it. Holds way tighter with less slippage and drill shank damage compared to any keyed drill chuck (brand name or if shore that I've ever had or still have). As I have time (and spare change) all my chucks will be going this way on the rest of the machines.

the key word here is "aluminum" . I'm with Tom on this one.

 

[Tom Kitta]

the key word here is "aluminum" . I'm with Tom on this one.

2nd key word here is small holes - up to 1/2 in. And I bet also not deep - maybe 1" at most.

3rd is holds tighter - which is why I am getting rid of mine - the issue is self tightening. I am not the only one that has this problem - there are many chucks on eBay for sale that basically are sold for like $10 for a $300 chuck which cannot be released or locked etc.

I guess the chuck is simply not universal - only for small holes and not too deep.

 

[Former Member]

I drill both small holes #29 and large 3/8, 7/16 and 1/2" upto 1" thick.

In regular keyed chucks (brand name included) I find the larger bits slip and damage the shank of the bit, more so with aluminium (it grabs as tooling heats up in production). The keyless does not seem to have that issue.

I do ensure I lock the chuck prior to use be it keyed or keyless.

 

[van123d]

Odd coincidence that this topic got kicked up again today as Canada post just dropped off one of the Precision Matthew’s chucks mentioned earlier in the thread.

I didn’t have my tenths indicator mounted but with a 0.001 indicator it is slightly less than 0.001 TIR.

The quality difference between the two is obvious. The PM chuck is a bit stiffer to turn but absolutely no grit feel. Very smooth. They do include a wrench to unlock the chuck if it over-tightens as well.

As long as I can unlock the chuck with the provided wrench if it self tightens beyond a normal amount then I am fine with that. Doesn’t seem much different than needing a key to unlock a keyed chuck.

 

[Dabbler]

After some incidents with self tightening chucks I decided never to buy another one and do exactly opposite to what you are doing i.e. only keyed chucks for me. I probably leave one just as a reminder why they are terrible.

As long as I can unlock the chuck with the provided wrench if it self tightens beyond a normal amount then I am fine with that. Doesn’t seem much different than needing a key to unlock a keyed chuck.

I'm sorry to be late to this thread. I could have given you a good chuck to try.

I only have keyed chucks, except for one keyless chuck for each the lathe and mill. The lathe one will be sold with my lathe. Yes it is offshore, but Taiwanese, and I thought I'd give it a try.

A standard Jacobs' chuck is far superior in every way: runout, gripping power, and *surprisingly* usability. You can just leave the key in the chuck at 90 degrees to the lathe spindle. It is actually faster than a keyless chuck.

The keyless chuck in the mill (R8 BTW) has about .004 runout, instead of .0015 runout of my Jacobs chuck. You can easily feel it while drilling.

Just this year I managed to get 2 used Jacobs Superchucks (ball bearing and lower runout) so we'll see where they will go. Yes they are keyed. One day I will try an Albrecht keyless chuck. but until then I'm done with keyless.

I hope your keyless experience is better than mine @van123d

 

[Susquatch]

@van123d - one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the need to hold the spindle when tightening a keyless chuck. I find that to be a PIA.

As I mentioned earlier, I do have a very high quality Gerardi keyless chuck that came with my mill along with a Gerardi vise. I've forgotten the runout of the Gerardi but I'm pretty sure it's around a thou - but not low tenths. It certainly does everything I need it to do.

But there is another side to the story. My mill spindle turns pretty easily. I can't properly tighten my keyless chuck without holding the spindle brake firmly at the same time. That makes it difficult to hold the drill bit too. Yes, I can tighten the chuck with a quick twist enough to hold the bit temporarily, but if I subsequently tighten the chuck the wrong way, the bit falls in the swarf or drops onto the work - not good. I really need three hands!

A key would make that a much easier assignment.

I also have a keyless Southbend Chuck with an MT3 shank that fits my lathe. I have no problems with it at all. It came with a wrench that I've never used.

I've had keyed chucks most of my life. They work just fine if you ask me.

 

[Former Member]

@van123d - one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the need to hold the spindle when tightening a keyless chuck. I find that to be a PIA.

No you don't and I don't have a spindle lock on my machine and my spindle turns freely.

IMHO it really comes down to adaptation of the user as to how different tools work and are accepted by the user.

I finally tried it and switched because I had issues with the chucks I used and I bought all new. I have read some technical articles that indicated that keyless seems to get better a better hold and accuracy and as a result are used in CNC. If its good enough for CNC it should do well enough for our littler duty requirements.

 

[Tom O]

I just like the fact the key doesn’t go missing and it’s hard to find a key that fits now if they were the same it would be no problem. I’ve never had a problem with the keyless types or noticed any if your that fussy then drill undersize and bore/ream the hole is the way I think it should be done anyway if it requires that close of tolerance.

 

[thestelster]

I agree with @Degen
I purchased an Albrecht drill chuck with integral 1/2" shaft, 36 years ago for use on my milling machine. I've used it almost every day of that time. Even if I only drilled one hole per day, that's 13,000 holes, and it still looks brand new. To install a bit, hold the bit with your right hand, put it in the chuck snug it up with your left hand, lock the spindle, tighten, unlock, drill. To remove, just a quick twist of the wrist loosens it. But...two caveats: 1. it is not meant to run in reverse, (though, when power tapping I've never had it loosen when backing the tap out).
2. Yes it self tightens. The bigger the bit, the higher the forces, the tighter it gets. Good!!!...yes, I have drilled 3" holes with a holesaw in steel, and couldn't loosen it with a flick of the wrist. That's why we have strap wrench or even leather and channel locks.

I have Jacobs key chucks, with ball bearings, up to the 18N which I use for the lathe. I don't like them. I have to tighten each of the three positions to grip even close, and they never seemed to be on center. I ended up getting another Albrecht and a Rohm keyless. I'll use the 18N on occasion, only because it will grip to 3/4" diameter bits.

 

[Dabbler]

an Albrecht drill chuck with integral 1/2" shaft, 36 years ago

I'll really have to try a real albrecht.

and they never seemed to be on center

the opposite of my experience. wow. 3 of my Jacobs chucks seem to be within the thou range of center. The two new ones are not tested (yet) They are both used, so anything goes there.